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Thunderbird Turbo Question by 85FieroGT3.4
Started on: 10-24-2007 10:36 PM
Replies: 32
Last post by: 85FieroGT3.4 on 10-29-2007 06:55 PM
85FieroGT3.4
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Report this Post10-24-2007 10:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85FieroGT3.4Click Here to Email 85FieroGT3.4Send a Private Message to 85FieroGT3.4Direct Link to This Post
I have a question for the turbo Gurus out there:

Would the stock Thunderbird turbo work on a 3.4 p/r? If so, can this one be rebuilt?

I found this on E-Bay and it is so cheap that it seems like a steal. It needs to be rebuilt, but can it be rebuilt? Would this be a good buy?

I know SO LITTLE about turbos. The seller says that it is a T3 with an A/R of .60/.63 Is this good?

Heres the listing: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...dZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

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85FieroGT3.4
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Report this Post10-25-2007 06:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85FieroGT3.4Click Here to Email 85FieroGT3.4Send a Private Message to 85FieroGT3.4Direct Link to This Post
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Report this Post10-25-2007 07:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRClick Here to Email RCRSend a Private Message to RCRDirect Link to This Post
Seems to me like it would work, as the engines are similar in size (3.8 vs 3.4), but I'm no expert. Check this thead out for follow-up info: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/085221.html

Bob

edit:
 
quote
also RCR is incorrect.. the Tbird turbo was a 2.3L engine not a 3.8 so it is very different. It's good for a 2.8, close in size enough to not make a problem.. 1L of displacement though makes it slide the line over to where you dont want it.


Sorry...My bad...

[This message has been edited by RCR (edited 10-25-2007).]

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timgray
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Report this Post10-25-2007 07:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayDirect Link to This Post
You will have to rebuild it. add another $80.00 to $120.00 to it for cost of the kit and pray the compressor and turbine is undamaged.

It would be good for low boost. 6 psi it will be outside the efficiency islands for a large portion of the boost. so you will be running around 190-210 degrees on air temperature at the intake valves, higher if you boost much. (EDIT: It's missing parts. It's not worth $12.00)

also it's cheap now. Ebay prices before the auction close dont mean anything . I have seen things go from $12.99 to $250.00 in the last 30 seconds.


also RCR is incorrect.. the Tbird turbo was a 2.3L engine not a 3.8 so it is very different. It's good for a 2.8, close in size enough to not make a problem.. 1L of displacement though makes it slide the line over to where you dont want it.

Dont do what lots of other guys do, get the right turbo for your car, dont just throw something in there and hope. you actually need a t3/t4 hybrid I'm still working out what trim is right for the 3.4...

for a stock 2.8 the T bird T3 (1987 or older) with it's .60 trim is good. not all T3 turbos are the same, not by a long shot.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 10-25-2007).]

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Report this Post10-25-2007 08:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for gregpro50Click Here to Email gregpro50Send a Private Message to gregpro50Direct Link to This Post
Its missing the wastegate. I would think of that as just parts. Look for a good used one. I just sold a couple on ebay.

A good used T3 will sell for around $150. You can get an IHI turbo for about $50. They build boost really fast but run out of power lower in the RPM band while a T3 takes longer to boost but lasts much longer in the RPM band.

I have an '86 Mustang SVO and I am running about 22lbs of boost from a factory T3.
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Report this Post10-25-2007 08:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for megafreakindethSend a Private Message to megafreakindethDirect Link to This Post
an early model sub-86 2.3 turbo is a .60/.48 turbo(.60/.63 on real early svos) good for 300hp in a perfect world. the later models had IHI turbos which wouldnt be to good for a 3.4 and only would be worth it on a stock pistoned 2.8 in terms of reliability and powerband.
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85FieroGT3.4
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Report this Post10-25-2007 06:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85FieroGT3.4Click Here to Email 85FieroGT3.4Send a Private Message to 85FieroGT3.4Direct Link to This Post
Thanks to everyone that responded.

 
quote
Originally posted by timgray:
You will have to rebuild it. add another $80.00 to $120.00 to it for cost of the kit and pray the compressor and turbine is undamaged.

It would be good for low boost. 6 psi it will be outside the efficiency islands for a large portion of the boost.

also RCR is incorrect.. the Tbird turbo was a 2.3L engine not a 3.8 so it is very different. It's good for a 2.8, close in size enough to not make a problem.. 1L of displacement though makes it slide the line over to where you dont want it.

Dont do what lots of other guys do, get the right turbo for your car, dont just throw something in there and hope. you actually need a t3/t4 hybrid I'm still working out what trim is right for the 3.4...

for a stock 2.8 the T bird T3 (1987 or older) with it's .60 trim is good. not all T3 turbos are the same, not by a long shot.


@ Timgray: In terms of the rebuild, that shouldn't be a problem. It should be like a basic rengine rebuild, right: Make sure the gaps are good, all the seals are good, and all the bolts are good? Low boost isn't a problem, since it means that theres less stress on the engine, as well as a quicker boost. When you refer to sliding the line over, you mean that it would run out of breath at higher RPM?

 
quote
Originally posted by gregpro50:
Its missing the wastegate. I would think of that as just parts. Look for a good used one. I just sold a couple on ebay.

A good used T3 will sell for around $150. You can get an IHI turbo for about $50. They build boost really fast but run out of power lower in the RPM band while a T3 takes longer to boost but lasts much longer in the RPM band.
I have an '86 Mustang SVO and I am running about 22lbs of boost from a factory T3.


@ gregpro50: With the internal wastegate, I believe that I have heard of people welding that shut and running an inline wastegate. Couldn't you do that with this?

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Report this Post10-25-2007 08:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayDirect Link to This Post
No, it means you will be running in the 67%-60% efficiency which will dramatically increase the temperatures and increase the chances of knock. also running it higher temps will reduce the life of the turbo as well reduce HP generated by the engine or even cause more detonation.


imagine a slanted line going through the 74% circle on that. now slide it over to the right so it's at the edge of the 70% and in the 65% circle. That is where that turbo will run on a 3.4 engine. not the best you get higher heat and lower benefit.

rebuilding a turbo is quite easy. Just dont hammer on anything. The book "high performance fieros" has a great section on turbo rebuilding as well as turboing a 3.4

you can find copies as cheap as $6.00 on amazon at times and I highly recommend it.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 10-25-2007).]

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85FieroGT3.4
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Report this Post10-25-2007 08:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85FieroGT3.4Click Here to Email 85FieroGT3.4Send a Private Message to 85FieroGT3.4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by timgray:
No, it means you will be running in the 67%-60% efficiency which will dramatically increase the temperatures and increase the chances of knock. also running it higher temps will reduce the life of the turbo as well reduce HP generated by the engine or even cause more detonation.

rebuilding a turbo is quite easy. Just dont hammer on anything. The book "high performance fieros" has a great section on turbo rebuilding as well as turboing a 3.4


@ Timgray: Thanks alot. That was a really helpful pic. I am a visual type of person, so anything that I can see that relates to that is extremely helpful.

That book and Maximum Boost are two books that I am going to be getting REALLY soon. I want to put a turbo on when I swap motors.

I remember someone saying that the T-Bird Turbo was a good, dirty starting point for the 2.8.

Now, next question: What is an A/R? Is an A/R exactly what you were describing above? Or is it a ratio? I was looking on Ebay and I saw alot of Honda turbo kits that had an A/R of like .57/60 or something like that. I am so lost on turbos. I'm gonna do a little reasearch, but any REAL info is helpful.
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Report this Post10-25-2007 09:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayDirect Link to This Post
A/R that typically is called the trim. It a ratio of the snail of the turbo. all you need to know is smaller = higher velocity faster spooling but get out of breath fast. bigger = fatter island in the map and it has more air but spools up slower.

a T3 with .40 trim is perfect for a 2.5 4 banger fiero engine. Except the 2.5 will explode in a rain of metal shards if it's boosted above 3-4 psi.

T3 super .60 trim is actually perfect for a 2.8 it's a bit fatter in air capacity and it deals with the 2.8 just fine up to the 5200 rpm mark.

i am actually going to try one of those "ebay turbos" at $195.00 for a new t3/t4 hybrid at my low 6 psi boost will probably live as long as I want it to. I would not trust those things past 10 PSI.

If you are rebuilding your engine, you really need "rebuilding you GM 60* V6 engine" it's the bible on these engines. It is going for over $100.00 on the used market.... Yikes!

Edit: I'm tired. Trim is the the compressor wheel. A/R is the turbo housing snail Ratio. I should not post when tired. the trim examples mentioned above is right. I cant think straight as to how to simplify how the A/R affects the compressor... if someone else does not cover it by the morning I'll fill in the blanks.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 10-25-2007).]

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85FieroGT3.4
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Report this Post10-26-2007 03:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85FieroGT3.4Click Here to Email 85FieroGT3.4Send a Private Message to 85FieroGT3.4Direct Link to This Post
Cool. I was looking on the internet and came across this site. I had been here before, but forgot who it was.

Heres the site: http://www.turbobygarrett.c...r/turbo_tech102.html

Basically, you were right. Trim is basically the effective size of the tubine or compressor, and the A/R is the AREA of the intake/dischage versus the big hole. AREA/RADIUS

Gotta love the internet

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Report this Post10-26-2007 03:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for kypClick Here to Email kypSend a Private Message to kypDirect Link to This Post
you should use a holset HX35 off of a desel truck.
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Report this Post10-26-2007 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Direct Link to This Post
Just use this one


This turbo is almost the size of a V6 block
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85FieroGT3.4
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Report this Post10-26-2007 05:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85FieroGT3.4Click Here to Email 85FieroGT3.4Send a Private Message to 85FieroGT3.4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by kyp:
you should use a holset HX35 off of a desel truck.


@ kyp: wouldnt something like that on a car take FOREVER to spool up? What kind of diesel is it from?

 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:
Just use this one



@ Sardonyx247: D@mn! that is a big turbo. How big is the compressor inlet on that, and what did it come from? A Mack Truck?

Edit: I realized that generators and such have turbos on them. BUT IM STILL CURIOUS!

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[This message has been edited by 85FieroGT3.4 (edited 10-26-2007).]

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timgray
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Report this Post10-26-2007 05:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for timgrayClick Here to visit timgray's HomePageClick Here to Email timgraySend a Private Message to timgrayDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sardonyx247:

Just use this one


This turbo is almost the size of a V6 block


You found the answer to transmission problems to make a 8 second turbo.

Simply place the air outlet of thet pointing backwards and the sheer thrust out of the outlet will fling a fiero down the track faster than you can say, that weighs how much?
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Report this Post10-26-2007 08:25 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sardonyx247Click Here to visit sardonyx247's HomePageClick Here to Email sardonyx247Send a Private Message to sardonyx247Direct Link to This Post
It was picked off the ground so I don't know what it came off of.
And it would make about 100lbs of thrust turning it into a jet turbine, which is the current plan for it.

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Report this Post10-26-2007 08:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FirefighterClick Here to Email FirefighterSend a Private Message to FirefighterDirect Link to This Post
I have the Nissan Garrett T/3 from a stock R33 Skyline GTS25T, on a stock 2.8. I actually don't even remember the Nissan Skyline but it was an 80's car. The specs are .60 and .38, I think. It certainly makes the 2.8 come alive. 200 hp and a 0-60 time of 6.6 to 6.8. Not great you say, well,it's a totally stock 2.8.
See if you can find a junkyard Skyline and buy the turbo, get the rebuild kit and you are in business. Ed

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85FieroGT3.4
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Report this Post10-26-2007 08:54 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85FieroGT3.4Click Here to Email 85FieroGT3.4Send a Private Message to 85FieroGT3.4Direct Link to This Post
Jeez. Here I am trying to figure out turbos, and you two are working on Jet propulsion!

Must be nice

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85FieroGT3.4
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Report this Post10-26-2007 09:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85FieroGT3.4Click Here to Email 85FieroGT3.4Send a Private Message to 85FieroGT3.4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Firefighter:
I have the Nissan Garrett T/3 from a stock R33 Skyline GTS25T, on a stock 2.8. I actually don't even remember the Nissan Skyline but it was an 80's car. The specs are .60 and .38, I think. It certainly makes the 2.8 come alive. 200 hp and a 0-60 time of 6.6 to 6.8. Not great you say, well,it's a totally stock 2.8.
See if you can find a junkyard Skyline and buy the turbo, get the rebuild kit and you are in business. Ed


@ Firefighter: You caame across an R33 in a junkyard? Or was it a turbo off of Ebay?

With .38, I'd imagine that it would spool up pretty quick. How is it in the higher RPMs?
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Report this Post10-26-2007 10:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierodeletreClick Here to Email fierodeletreSend a Private Message to fierodeletreDirect Link to This Post
Am I wrong or were skylines never sold here in the US?

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1984 Fiero SE, White, first love, sold...
1986 Fiero SE 2M6, gold
1988 Fiero 2M4, the Fox
1987 Fiero GT, Blue, 3.4/4T40
Still looking for that perfect CJB 88 GT...

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85FieroGT3.4
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Report this Post10-27-2007 12:20 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85FieroGT3.4Click Here to Email 85FieroGT3.4Send a Private Message to 85FieroGT3.4Direct Link to This Post
The R-33 was a "Grey" Import into the states. That means that it was legally imported, but without the agreement of the manufacturer. I was looking on autotrader.com and I found 19 or so Skylines, ranging from $12,000 to $92,000. The turbo that Firefighter has has a nylon compressor wheel. Talk about lower intake temps!

Wikipedias blurb on the Skyline: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_Skyline

I tried to list the autotrader page, but it was apparently to long and something freaked out, so it only let the first 1/8 be a link.
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[This message has been edited by 85FieroGT3.4 (edited 10-27-2007).]

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Report this Post10-27-2007 01:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fierodeletreClick Here to Email fierodeletreSend a Private Message to fierodeletreDirect Link to This Post
hm nylon? doesn't sound very beefy... does it work fine?

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1984 Fiero SE, White, first love, sold...
1986 Fiero SE 2M6, gold
1988 Fiero 2M4, the Fox
1987 Fiero GT, Blue, 3.4/4T40
Still looking for that perfect CJB 88 GT...

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Report this Post10-27-2007 04:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FirefighterClick Here to Email FirefighterSend a Private Message to FirefighterDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 85FieroGT3.4:


@ Firefighter: You caame across an R33 in a junkyard? Or was it a turbo off of Ebay?

With .38, I'd imagine that it would spool up pretty quick. How is it in the higher RPMs?


Well, I don't remember the Skyline GT at all. The turbo was second hand, but rebuilt when I got it. And yes, it spools up quickly but just like it's counterpart, the stock 2.8, "it ain't great" at higher rpms, runs out of energy at the higher rpm range, if you can even call the "high" rpm range of a 2.8 -high. Ed
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Report this Post10-28-2007 12:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DgzfieroClick Here to Email DgzfieroSend a Private Message to DgzfieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by fierodeletre:

hm nylon? doesn't sound very beefy... does it work fine?


I think he meant ceramic.

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Report this Post10-28-2007 12:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DgzfieroClick Here to Email DgzfieroSend a Private Message to DgzfieroDirect Link to This Post

Dgzfiero

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double post

[This message has been edited by Dgzfiero (edited 10-28-2007).]

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85FieroGT3.4
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Report this Post10-28-2007 06:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 85FieroGT3.4Click Here to Email 85FieroGT3.4Send a Private Message to 85FieroGT3.4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_skyline

For the RB25DET engine the ignition system was also changed, with the ignition module no longer located on the cam covers and was instead replaced by smart ignition coils (Ignitor built into coil) and ECU. The RB25DET turbo was also given a nylon compressor wheel.


According to Wikipedia, the nylon compressor wheel came on the 1996 R33 with the RB25DET. Just had to make sure that what I was saying was right.

BTW, the R33 that firefighters turbo came from was the ECR33 GTS25T which ran a 2.5 L DOHC turbo I6 engine named the RB25DET. It created around 250 PS which I think is around 220 horsepower.

So, Firefighter, you found a nice turbo that works well. Now, if I could do the same thing with the 3.4... Theres always the Supra (much more common)

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[This message has been edited by 85FieroGT3.4 (edited 10-28-2007).]

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Report this Post10-28-2007 01:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DgzfieroClick Here to Email DgzfieroSend a Private Message to DgzfieroDirect Link to This Post
Ah I see the series II now. Nylon/plastic impeller bolted to the shaft.
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Report this Post10-28-2007 03:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for crytical pointClick Here to Email crytical pointSend a Private Message to crytical pointDirect Link to This Post
umm that turbo is for a 2.3 4cyl the 3.8 in the tbird was only n/a and supercharged so it will spool super fast on a 3.4.
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Report this Post10-28-2007 04:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85FieroGT3.4Click Here to Email 85FieroGT3.4Send a Private Message to 85FieroGT3.4Direct Link to This Post
Im looking for something that would be good for the 3.4. The 2.3 would be too small, as Timgray pointed out. It would be too small and create too much heat. Now, if I was still going with the 2.8, I'd think about the tubo off of the SRT-4. Pretty common car, and in the hands of young and inexperienced drivers, they end up in the junk yard. Does anyone know of any Turbo motors that are around 3.4L?

I'd still like to keep it cheap and not have to drop $200-$300 for a turbo.
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Report this Post10-28-2007 05:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HI-TECHClick Here to visit HI-TECH's HomePageClick Here to Email HI-TECHSend a Private Message to HI-TECHDirect Link to This Post
a good junkyard setup would be a the ct26 from 7mgte(3.0L I-6) witch comes from the 3rd gen supra w/ a side mount intercooler from a dsm stuffed under one of the cooling vents with a fan, probly run ya a little under a 100 bucks for both.. i love junkyard turbo projects

[This message has been edited by HI-TECH (edited 10-28-2007).]

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Report this Post10-28-2007 05:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85FieroGT3.4Click Here to Email 85FieroGT3.4Send a Private Message to 85FieroGT3.4Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by HI-TECH:
a good junkyard setup would be a the ct26 from 7mgte(3.0L I-6) witch comes from the 3rd gen supra w/ a side mount intercooler from a dsm stuffed under one of the cooling vents with a fan, probly run ya a little under a 100 bucks for both.. i love junkyard turbo projects


@ HI-TECH: Yeah! Thats what I'm talkin about, Willis! Do you have any specs on the turbo at all? I was looking at the Supra last night on Wikipedia and noticed that it was a 3L. I just did a search on Google and came up with this site: http://www.dieselevante.it/...rgers.asp?idfam=CT26 . Not all that helpful, but a nice resource. I noticed that there was a turbocharged 1985 Landcuriser that was a 3.4, but it only made 95 HP? It seems that was a pretty popular turbo, on the Celica, the Landcruiser, the MR2 and of course the Supra. So, that should make finding one in a junkyard somewhat easy.

[This message has been edited by 85FieroGT3.4 (edited 10-28-2007).]

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Report this Post10-28-2007 07:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for HI-TECHClick Here to visit HI-TECH's HomePageClick Here to Email HI-TECHSend a Private Message to HI-TECHDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 85FieroGT3.4:


@ HI-TECH: Yeah! Thats what I'm talkin about, Willis! Do you have any specs on the turbo at all? I was looking at the Supra last night on Wikipedia and noticed that it was a 3L. I just did a search on Google and came up with this site: http://www.dieselevante.it/...rgers.asp?idfam=CT26 . Not all that helpful, but a nice resource. I noticed that there was a turbocharged 1985 Landcuriser that was a 3.4, but it only made 95 HP? It seems that was a pretty popular turbo, on the Celica, the Landcruiser, the MR2 and of course the Supra. So, that should make finding one in a junkyard somewhat easy.


o yeah there a common turbo, theres tons of different reversions of it the best one in my book would be the one off the 7mgte, the specs are hard to find on the turbo i know most the old sources i use to use for my old alltrac the sites have gone down. the ct26 isnt a hevy breather ususly on the 7m it was good for about 14lbs and a 1.1-1.2 bar nothing spectacular. that why i ususly choose it for small boost projects i.e my old 3s-ge in my old celica gt-s and my buddy's 5f-se in his celli gt and an old 4g63 we popped in an 91 colt hach( i know just gitting the 4g63t would have been easyer but fun is it in that :P), most fun is your buddys and spending the day hunting around pick-n-pull for crap...

edit: spelling... and i beleve the ct26 used an a/r ratio of 0.49 i think...

[This message has been edited by HI-TECH (edited 10-28-2007).]

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85FieroGT3.4
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Report this Post10-29-2007 06:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 85FieroGT3.4Click Here to Email 85FieroGT3.4Send a Private Message to 85FieroGT3.4Direct Link to This Post
That A/R you found was for the MR2 turbo. I found some good sites, but I couldn't find any stats. But that is a really good turbo. Very upgradeable from what I saw.

BTW, what car did the Side mount intercooler come from - The MR2? Or was it something aftermarket?

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