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Northstar Questions by 84z31
Started on: 10-22-2007 11:44 AM
Replies: 30
Last post by: Will on 10-24-2007 10:24 PM
84z31
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Report this Post10-22-2007 11:44 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84z31Click Here to visit 84z31's HomePageClick Here to Email 84z31Send a Private Message to 84z31Direct Link to This Post
Alright i know some or most of you are going to think i'm crazy for posting on this website.

i own an 85 Nissan 300ZX.

i just paid $400 for a 96' caddy, sedan deville with the 4.6L northstar. the car has 209K miles on it. the tranny only has 60K on it. which doesn't matter because it won't work with my project.

so if you are getting the picture here, its going in my Z. its going to be a RWD application. i found a flywheel at JEGS, i need to find a tranny that will work with the motor in a RWD application.

i've started tearing apart the dash. i have been unhooking things and making sure the motor still runs. so far i have everything except the instrument cluster unhooked. it seems the motor will not start without it. must be some OBDII stuff.

Anway, i'm going to rebuild the motor, i've found most of the parts. i'll probably just had the cylinders honed, add new rings and bearings. the motor doesn't burn any oil, and doesn't use any antifreeze. the only problem, are the lifters, they make some noise until the motor is warmed up. i've heard there are lifters from the Quad-4 that work in the motor. but i don't have any real confirmation.

my main question is about wiring this motor up.

Will it run without the transmission?

what can i do to get the motor to run and run well without the instrument cluster?

And what things can i delete from the motor and still keep it running.

so far i've noticed there isn't half the wiring my Z has. 80's Fuel injection has 10 million sensors and twice as many wires to go along with it.

anyway, i know its a bit different then you're used to. but mainly i'm worried about the wiring. i haven't found very much information on it.

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Report this Post10-22-2007 11:59 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Russ544Send a Private Message to Russ544Direct Link to This Post
you can use a 84 - 92 camero or firebird bellhousing (v-6) and a T-5 5 speed trans. CHRF has a flywheel and clutch (Mcleod) that work really well. I'm using a 7730 ecm set up by Ryan Hess (wait... he'll be here ). his setup works really well on a stock or very mild setup. if you want more extensive mods you'll want a Holley Commander ECM setup from CHRF, but you'll need to be pretty good at tuning the efi engines. I have a compleat Holley setup including the laptop that I'd love to sell you

Russ544

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 10-22-2007).]

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84z31
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Report this Post10-22-2007 12:06 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84z31Click Here to visit 84z31's HomePageClick Here to Email 84z31Send a Private Message to 84z31Direct Link to This Post
it'll probably be stock for awhile , the tuning that is.

the motor that came in my Z made 160 hp. so this motor will more then double it.

i have 3.71 gears in my Z. so with a good 5 speed, i'll be set up well.
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Report this Post10-22-2007 12:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Russ544Send a Private Message to Russ544Direct Link to This Post
OOpps.sorry, I forgot to add this link for you:
http://chrfab.com/

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Will
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Report this Post10-22-2007 12:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84z31:

i found a flywheel at JEGS


Say what??

 
quote
the motor doesn't burn any oil, and doesn't use any antifreeze.


Then leave it alone. Rebuilding a Northstar gets expensive fast. The bottom end bearings total about $250, for instance.

 
quote
Will it run without the transmission?


Depends on what engine management you use.

 
quote

And what things can i delete from the motor and still keep it running[?]


Not the rods, not the crank, not the pistons, not the valves...


Probably the biggest issue you're going to run into with using a Northstar in RWD application is that the waterpump and brake booster will most likely want to use the same space. The N* waterpump is on the back of the engine and will end up driving the engine several inches forward of where most engines would be in the bay.
The exhaust manifolds are set up for a FWD configuration, so there's extra work there. You'll have to fab engine mounts, and they'll be different right to left since the block is asymmetric owing to its transverse origin...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-22-2007).]

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84z31
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Report this Post10-22-2007 12:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84z31Click Here to visit 84z31's HomePageClick Here to Email 84z31Send a Private Message to 84z31Direct Link to This Post
actually, for get the double part. the brain wasn't working.
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84z31
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Report this Post10-22-2007 12:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84z31Click Here to visit 84z31's HomePageClick Here to Email 84z31Send a Private Message to 84z31Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Not the rods, not the crank, not the pistons, not the valves...


thanks for the sarcasm

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Probably the biggest issue you're going to run into with using a Northstar in RWD application is that the waterpump and brake booster will most likely want to use the same space. The N* waterpump is on the back of the engine and will end up driving the engine several inches forward of where most engines would be in the bay.
The exhaust manifolds are set up for a FWD configuration, so there's extra work there. You'll have to fab engine mounts, and they'll be different right to left since the block is asymmetric owing to its transverse origin...



i've read about the water pump. that shouldn't be to much of an issue. the brake booster and the clutch master cylinders are pretty much behind the strut tower.

OH- that Fly wheel thingy you had a question about, that's the thing you need for a manual tranny, you know the one you have to have a clutch for and then that weird little 3rd pedal. you'll have to use your left leg for that.

i'm a pretty competent fabricator and welder. otherwise i wouldn't try taking on such a project.

this will not be my first motor swap. i swapped a supra motor into my old Toyota Pickup. it was a pretty fun project. it took about a month, including wiring and fabrication.

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/692620

[This message has been edited by 84z31 (edited 10-22-2007).]

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Report this Post10-22-2007 01:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84z31:
thanks for the sarcasm


Only too pleased.

 
quote
i've read about the water pump. that shouldn't be to much of an issue. the brake booster and the clutch master cylinders are pretty much behind the strut tower.


If you just bought the Caddy, you should be able to go look at it, too. The water manifold overhangs the bellhousing interface by about 4 inches in the middle and will need 8-10 inches aft of the bellhousing mounting plane on the left side of the engine in order to clear hose connections, etc.

 
quote
OH- that Fly wheel thingy you had a question about, that's the thing you need for a manual tranny, you know the one you have to have a clutch for and then that weird little 3rd pedal. you'll have to use your left leg for that.


I use my left leg for braking. How am I supposed work another pedal with it? 3 pedals and two feet... What idiot thought that up?
I'd be very surprised if Jegs had a flywheel that would work on the Northstar.
In fact, I with a brief search, I can't find one. Exactly which flywheel (maybe with item number) were you looking at?

 
quote
i'm a pretty competent fabricator and welder. otherwise i wouldn't try taking on such a project.


Congratulations

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-22-2007).]

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84z31
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Report this Post10-22-2007 01:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84z31Click Here to visit 84z31's HomePageClick Here to Email 84z31Send a Private Message to 84z31Direct Link to This Post
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Report this Post10-22-2007 01:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AJxtcmanClick Here to Email AJxtcmanSend a Private Message to AJxtcmanDirect Link to This Post
I can put together a PCM and program.
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84z31
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Report this Post10-22-2007 01:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84z31Click Here to visit 84z31's HomePageClick Here to Email 84z31Send a Private Message to 84z31Direct Link to This Post
well, give me some details on what you can do.

i need it run without the auto tranny and the instrument panel. i'd also like it to run without any emissions crap on it.

i'd like the 300 hp tune found on the other N*'s. and a rev limit a little above 6000 rpm.
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Report this Post10-22-2007 03:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ryan.hessClick Here to Email ryan.hessSend a Private Message to ryan.hessDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84z31:

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/...0001_10002_655448_-1

i searched northstar.

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/...searchTe rm=northstar

they also have cams and fuel rails.


Are they really charging $1000 for just cams?

I've got a chip that will run a stock/slightly modded manual N* just fine. If you want cams or boost or something, that's fine and doable, but you will need a chip burner ($30) to do the tuning. There is a learning curve to tuning. It's a little steep.

I put down 256whp through an auto 4t80e (the stock caddy trans). Losses have been measured at 26-28% depending on who did it. That's about 346hp @ the crank. No emissions crap. The rev limiter can be set to what you want.

I believe I have dyno'd the highest HP of any NA Auto N*. Zac, who's also on here, put down over 300whp through a manual with my chip, although he had more mods like headers.
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Report this Post10-23-2007 08:38 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84z31:

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/...0001_10002_655448_-1

i searched northstar.

http://www.jegs.com/webapp/...searchTe rm=northstar

they also have cams and fuel rails.


I searched Northstar flywheel and didn't find anything. I see that's because some data entry goon couldn't be bothered to type out flywheel.

Have you called to see if you can actually get those items yet?
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84z31
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Report this Post10-23-2007 08:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84z31Click Here to visit 84z31's HomePageClick Here to Email 84z31Send a Private Message to 84z31Direct Link to This Post
no i have not had the time to call anyone. when i get to that point i'll call them about it.
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Report this Post10-23-2007 10:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for darkhorizonSend a Private Message to darkhorizonDirect Link to This Post
I like how there is NO information on the flywheel whatsoever, congrats your selling a flywheel that says northstar on it. I am guessing its a brand of a SBC flywheel (kidding).
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Report this Post10-23-2007 10:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
McLeod doesn't list the flywheel on their site: http://www.mcleodind.com/ap...gs/flywheels_gm.html
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84z31
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Report this Post10-23-2007 11:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 84z31Click Here to visit 84z31's HomePageClick Here to Email 84z31Send a Private Message to 84z31Direct Link to This Post
i just emailed JEGS. we'll see what they have to say about the flywheel.

i wonder if its not possible to run a flywheel from another 60* GM transmission?

i'll report back when they email me back.
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Report this Post10-23-2007 12:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Zac88GTClick Here to visit Zac88GT's HomePageClick Here to Email Zac88GTSend a Private Message to Zac88GTDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84z31:

i just emailed JEGS. we'll see what they have to say about the flywheel.

i wonder if its not possible to run a flywheel from another 60* GM transmission?

i'll report back when they email me back.


It's possible, you would just have to plug the old holes and redrill the bolt pattern. You would also probably need to make a centering bushing for the crank.
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Report this Post10-23-2007 12:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84z31Click Here to visit 84z31's HomePageClick Here to Email 84z31Send a Private Message to 84z31Direct Link to This Post
when i finally get around to getting the motor out i'll take some measurements. Then make a drawing in CAD and see how much it would cost to have some flywheels made.

i figure there must be some kind of market for this flywheel. i know lots of people use them in 4x4's and dune buggies.
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Report this Post10-23-2007 12:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Russ544Send a Private Message to Russ544Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Zac88GT:


It's possible, you would just have to plug the old holes and redrill the bolt pattern. You would also probably need to make a centering bushing for the crank.


not very practical however IMHO, givin the very large diameter of the N* crank flange. at least I didn't find a flywheel that has a large enough recessed area to enclose the bolts. I used a flywheel from CHRF and just had .100 turned off the face (needed only if you bolt to a Fiero trans)

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Report this Post10-23-2007 01:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84z31Click Here to visit 84z31's HomePageClick Here to Email 84z31Send a Private Message to 84z31Direct Link to This Post
Here is what JEGS sent to me about the flywheel.



Dear Sir,

Thank you for the inquiry. That flywheel is specifically for the North Star.

It does not list it to fit any other application. I do not keep it in stock.

It would take about 14 days on a special order and the price would be $336.99.





Thank You

Jeff W











JEFF WATKINS

Jeg’s Mail Order

101 Jeg’s Place

Delaware, Ohio 43015

800-345-4545 ext.537

614-851-9763 fax

jeff.watkins@jegs.com



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Report this Post10-23-2007 07:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
Next step is to see if McLeod actually has any and to find out if they are FWD thickness or RWD thickness (big difference).

If they actually have it and it's not a catalog error, that would be very interesting.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-23-2007).]

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Report this Post10-23-2007 09:59 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Russ544Send a Private Message to Russ544Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Next step is to see if McLeod actually has any and to find out if they are FWD thickness or RWD thickness (big difference).

If they actually have it and it's not a catalog error, that would be very interesting.



someone isn't paying attention. do I need to send pictures of the Mcloed boxes? the Mcloed part numbers are as follows:

FLYWHEEL # 461400
PRESURE PLATE # 360131
DISK (DUAL FRICTION) # 260875

can you buy them dirrect from Mcloed or Jegs or ........? I doubt it. these were made for the Northstar for CHRF and are most likely propriotory just like the SBC Centerforce is for Archie. I don't know why anyone would not want to buy from CHRF anyway, as their prices are good (flywheel 275 when I bought mine a year ago), Alans Northstar knowledge is second to none, he has them in stock at all times, and he will back them up if needed. his main customers use the engine in a longitudinal (RWD) configuration so that is how the parts are setup. no alterations will be needed in this case (the only thing you need to do to install with the Fiero trans is to have .100 removed from the face).

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 10-23-2007).]

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Report this Post10-23-2007 10:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Russ544Send a Private Message to Russ544Direct Link to This Post

Russ544

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oops

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 10-23-2007).]

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Report this Post10-23-2007 10:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AJxtcmanClick Here to Email AJxtcmanSend a Private Message to AJxtcmanDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84z31:

well, give me some details on what you can do.

i need it run without the auto tranny and the instrument panel. i'd also like it to run without any emissions crap on it.

i'd like the 300 hp tune found on the other N*'s. and a rev limit a little above 6000 rpm.


Yes you can run a Manual Trans.
I have no clue why you think you would need a IPC?
I have a stock 00 DTS program that is "OBD I"
OBD I means no emissions. It is an 00 DTS stock, less converter, EVAP system, Misfire counter, every thing they added in 96.
I have similar OBD I programs for 96 to 03 Northstars.
Today I pulled all the 93 to 95 off the server and catologued them. I have several programs that have no converters/leaded fuel.
I have several tuning programs.

Oh yeah I have 6500 shift point figured out.

OK I have some new pictures.

The first is a snapshot of a WOT from a dead stop with a stock DHS program
look at how much the PCM allows for max power/torque on this run



This WOT run is at a dead stop with a tuned PCM
99% torque Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm:rant2:
of course this is mine!!!!:rant2:
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Report this Post10-23-2007 10:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for AJxtcmanClick Here to Email AJxtcmanSend a Private Message to AJxtcmanDirect Link to This Post

AJxtcman

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I will post a snapshot of my newest program
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Will
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Report this Post10-24-2007 09:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Russ544:


someone isn't paying attention. do I need to send pictures of the Mcloed boxes? the Mcloed part numbers are as follows:

FLYWHEEL # 461400
PRESURE PLATE # 360131
DISK (DUAL FRICTION) # 260875

can you buy them dirrect from Mcloed or Jegs or ........? I doubt it. these were made for the Northstar for CHRF and are most likely propriotory just like the SBC Centerforce is for Archie. I don't know why anyone would not want to buy from CHRF anyway, as their prices are good (flywheel 275 when I bought mine a year ago), Alans Northstar knowledge is second to none, he has them in stock at all times, and he will back them up if needed. his main customers use the engine in a longitudinal (RWD) configuration so that is how the parts are setup. no alterations will be needed in this case (the only thing you need to do to install with the Fiero trans is to have .100 removed from the face).




For someone to be expected to know that MacLeod makes CHRF's flywheels, that bit of information would have had to have come up in discussion at some point recently...
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Report this Post10-24-2007 10:52 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Russ544Send a Private Message to Russ544Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
For someone to be expected to know that MacLeod makes CHRF's flywheels, that bit of information would have had to have come up in discussion at some point recently...


the first reply in this thread reads in part:

"you can use a 84 - 92 camero or firebird bellhousing (v-6) and a T-5 5 speed trans. CHRF has a flywheel and clutch (Mcleod) that work really well."

pay attention Will

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Report this Post10-24-2007 01:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for WillClick Here to Email WillSend a Private Message to WillDirect Link to This Post
One stinkin' word...
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Report this Post10-24-2007 03:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Russ544Send a Private Message to Russ544Direct Link to This Post
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