Ray, thanks for sending this link to me...I appreciate the heads up. I have to admit, it never ceases to amaze me at the amount of misinformation that exists in forums such as these (though I assure you this forum is not alone). I want to try to address some apparent questions and issues and will do my best to get to these as quickly as possible. As you can imagine, I am a pretty busy guy, that in the course of a day answers lots of email, talks to numerous dealers and end users, and peruses a number of forums and thus there can be a delay in my responses. That being said, I will do my very best to offer insight and understanding to the sometimes overwhelming world of clutches and flywheeles.
I would like to start by saying that some of you really seem to have a good idea of the way that clutches operate. On the otherhand, there seems to be a decent amount of "band-wagon" mentality here as well. To that end, here is the situation as I see it. Thus far, Matt one of our engineers that moonlights in the Sales Dept., has provided the correct information based on the emails and pictures provided by Art. Input-shaft play is the leading killer of discs in cars that do not use a a pilot-bearing (I am sure you all know that the Fiero fits into this catagory). Some of you have aluded to the idea that we can somehow remedy this tendency out of the cars by changing the clutch assembly and this is simply not correct. It is true that cars like the Fiero use other internal bearing to reduce movement of the shaft...but remember guys, bearings wear and in the case of cars of this age, aside from replacing the input bearing, retainer, and race there is no way to nullify this potential for occurance. The thought that a clutch can be built to eliminate the potential for this to occur is misguided at best. The only solution is to rebuild the transmission, replacing the parts I mention above.
Art seems to be of the opinion that the shaft in his car has no increased play ("There is no wobble on the input shaft from what I can see and the transmission / clutch worked fine while I had my 4cyl")...the reality of input-shafts would make this assumption incorrect. You see, a shaft does not have to have slop so bad that it is detectable with the naked eye in order to be problematic. He will need to have the shaft checked with a dial indicator (as Dennis mentioned previously). This is the only true way to check the shaft for play. As a side note, lets be realistic here guys, these transmissions were not built yesterday...as these cars haven't been built in nearly 20 years.
It seems that some of you took offense to Matt's statement about the "The reason people have problems with these swaps is because it was never meant to be done. " This was not intended to anger or frustrate you...and I think that all of us can agree that these cars were not intended to have the motors that are being swapped into them these days. Beyond that, you should still expect to have a clutch that works properly. Though I ask that you realise that the added stress attributed to engine swaps (and the increase power and weight they lend to the equation) can certainly tax other components (i.e. input bearing etc...). I would have expected you all to understand this as a given...but I wanted to make sure that it is written so we can at the very least understand it as a given reality in the future.
Art's next frustration revolves around the fact that we offered to sell a new disc to him at a reduced cost. Our clutches do come with a warranty, that is 120 days from the date of purchase. As I understand it, this unit was purchased more than a year ago, though it was installed more recently. That being said, I am still more than happy to speak with Art or any of your in regards to this or any other issue if need be. I am a reasonable guy, that is just as much an enthusiats as the rest of you. Remember, SPEC has been building clutches for nearly 2 decades. We are very familiar with these cars and the swaps that are common to them. As such we are also familiar with the issues that can occur as a result. Please feel free to contact me directly with any concerns you may have. Thanks for your time!
I tried replying to this yesterday, but the forum ate my post.
Jeremy, thank you for taking the time to read this thread and respond to our situation and concerns. This would seem to speak much about your own commitment to customer service. My early experience with SPEC in getting a bolt-in Northstar flywheel setup a couple of years ago was less than stellar. I hope that has changed for the better. Thank you for listening to our community. Fieros are a niche market and account for a tiny fraction of the performance aftermarket landscape.
Can you provide us with a maximum runout or radial play spec that would be acceptable for use with your clutches?
From the anecdotal accounts presented in this thread, it would appear that SPEC clutches are having these issues more frequently than other manufacturer's clutches within a similar group of transmissions and engine/trans combos. Do you think there is an improvement which could be made to SPEC clutches to alleviate the issue?
Could you elaborate on how runout or radial play damages the disks?
I would assume that when the clutch is applied on a shaft that is slightly off center, it will then experience a cyclic loading with every revolution of the engine. This cyclic loading then pushes back and forth on the springs causing them to wear in their cages, and eventually wear them out. Is this the case? Would it be possible to include spherical washers at each end of the springs, or a similar design change to make the disks better able to deal with cyclic loading?
I know that the preferred solution is to fix the transmission, but in advocating that, you're asking every potential SPEC customer to spend what could amount to hundreds of dollars in transmission work in order to use a SPEC clutch. While radial play is a bad thing and indicative of wear, it is my opinion that only a small fraction of these transmission actually need to the work in order to be serviceable at the power levels to which they will be subjected.
I have done complete overhauls on the Muncie/Getrag 282 transmission. The input shaft outer bearing is a sealed NSK unit that has never seemed to be anything but brand new in the transmissions I have disassembled. The input shaft inner bearing/seal combo, however is an open roller arrangement that runs directly on the surface of the input shaft. I wouldn't doubt that there could be play in this bearing, and play at the clutch disk will be 1.5-2x the amount of play at the inner bearing, provided the outer bearing is in good condition.
If the sprung hub clutch disks have issues with bearing play in the transmission, will the solid hub disks not eventually suffer fatigue failure in the same applications?
Matt's statement about swaps not being meant to be done comes across as somewhat mis-informed. The Cadillac 4.9, Cadillac Northstar, 3800, 3100, 3400, 3500, etc ALL bolt directly to the 282 transmission (and other Fiero transmissions of course). Thus they will all have the same clutch "form factor" or interface. Thus there are no variables to consider that would not be considered when designing a clutch for use with a high power 2.8 V6. The ONLY common swap for which the clutch interface changes is a Chevy V8. Am I wrong?
I'm interested in hearing more of your thoughts on the issue. Thanks again for taking the time to visit.
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10:24 AM
Will Member
Posts: 14219 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I have been following this thread and was surprised that Jeremy signed up and replied. Many companies would normally not do this because of the small niche Fiero's make up. At least they care enough to address our concerns and/or problems. As Dennis stated the input shaft alignment and end play has a lot to do with clutch life. I have a SPEC III in my 4-spd for about 3 years and so far have had no problems with it. Originally it had a little chatter during break-in but now it is smooth and works great. There does seem to be a few others also having good luck with SPEC clutches as well.
From what I have read here it appears that most failures seem to be with the Getrag 5-spd and there are a few 6-spd's now. Has anyone had an issue with the 4-spd? Also does anyone know if the input shaft runout is designed differently between the 4-spd, 5-spd, and 6-spd? Could the input shaft bearing be different (size, thickness, design, etc.) and causing an issue? Maybe we could get a few measurements and see if there could be something we're missing when doing swaps. At the very least with the above info we could work together with SPEC and possibly resolve the issues.
Let's be a little more careful with our terminology.
"End Play" refers to play in the direction of the long axis of the shaft and should be completely irrelevant to a clutch. The disk is secured by the clamp load of the pressure plate and slides on the splines a little bit with EVERY release and apply cycle. This is also practically a non-issue with the 282's owing to the design of the input shaft outer bearing that takes the axial loading from the gear mesh.
"Runout" refers to change in the indicated radial dimension of the shaft EXCLUSIVE of bearing play. Thus only a bent shaft can have runout. I think this is very unlikely with the 282's, given the overall quality of the design and engineering in them.
"Radial play" refers to play in a bearing or journal/bore interface perpendicular to the axis of the shaft. This is the potential issue.
The 4 speed uses a pair of tapered roller bearings on every shaft. I haven't been in an Isuzu, but the 282 uses a sealed cartridge that both radial and axial loading at the outer ends of the shafts with plain rollers at the inner ends. It only uses a tapered roller pair on the differential.
[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-17-2007).]
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10:29 AM
Blacktree Member
Posts: 20770 From: Central Florida Registered: Dec 2001
Originally posted by Raydar: The center of the disc (the carrier for the springs) protrudes from the face of the disc. It will only go in one way, unless you really just are not paying attention, and don't notice that you are forcing the center hub, including the springs, against the flywheel bolts. I suppose you can put it in backwards (the effects would be very noisy and ugly if you managed to get that far) but that's not the issue, here. The discs are clearly labeled "flywheel side", so their kind of foolproof in that regard. The issue is the steel hub in the center of the spring carrier. The single piece that has the splines in it. It's actually turned around backwards on some discs.
I had a feeling I was missing something.
Well... I hope my Stage 2 clutch doesn't explode... heh.
[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-18-2007).]
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11:00 AM
Jeremy@SPEC Member
Posts: 24 From: Birmingham, AL Registered: Oct 2007
Guys, it is my pleasure to offer information and assistance to any and all that need it. Now for more answers and discussion: It is important to remember that input-shaft play can effect even new transmission. This can be compounded by increased stress and weight and to a greater extent build and planer linearity. We check every assembly (for build, actuation, geometry, etc...)before it ships. Does that mean there is no chance for any issues ever? No, it simply means that we do our very best to provide a quality product that is thuroughly checked and tested before it ships to you the customer.
Several of you have mentioned that a fellow enthusiast received a disc that had the hub reversed. Until now I have heard nothing of this matter, and I urge any of you that may have an issue now or in the future to contact us so that we may assess the situation and work to find a resolution. As a side note, you would be amazed at the number of folks that install discs backwards (even though the discs are clearly marked with a "FW Side" sticker). I am not saying that this is the issue (as i have not seen any pics of the assembly), I am simply letting you know that this has happened and we do our best to make the proper installation as clear as possible.
The next section is devoted to questions about our Less than 1% return rate. To clarify, this is accross the board for all applications and clutches. I have looked at the returns for Fiero units just now and my statements about the return rate stands. We have sold hundreds if not thousands of these units (I did not search the volume of every applicable part number sold as I know that we have sent out countless assemblies without issue).
Raydar, to address you directly, it seems that you may need a hug (if there is anyone close to him please drop buy and make sure he has received his quota of possitive affirmation for the day). I kid, I kid...I joke with you!!! I am sure that everyone understand that my last statement (not the bad Triumph the Insult Dog impersonation) was said in jest...I understand where Raydar is coming. There is nothing worse than having an issue and feeling as though you were ignored by a manufacture. I have no information on the issue he so vehemently recalls though I would be happy to look over any pics or other information specific to this situation to see what can be done. Remember, our warranty is 120 days from the date of purchase. If the clutch in questions is out of warranty there would be no requirement for anything to be covered...though in most instances we work with our customers to find a resolution that is ammicable.
Will, thanks for your understanding and appreciation of my contribution. Run-out specs can be found in your Haynes (or similar) manual...I do not have one of these at the office, and I am sure that some of you are in arms reach. To address your questions about the frequency of issues, I would bet that we have more of these units in the market than any other manufacture (please realize that this is not a justification for any problem). As I mentioned earlier, we offer rigid hub discs as well, and if you are concerned with the potential for spring issue then going with a rigid hub disc is one sure fire way to avoid this. Remember, rigid discs will inherently be more agressive in terms of engagement and as such they will be less forgiving in street driven use. The actual wear of the spring cage comes from the transmittance of vibration from the shaft (this is compounded by excessive play associated with worn bearings).
I think that catches up on most of what needed attention since yesterday. Again, I will try to get back here regularly to check the thread for questions and issues. As always you can contact me directly at any time via phone or email. And Raydar, remember, "Your good enough, smart enough, and dawg-gone it people like you!" Let me know if you ever get to Alabama and I will be happy to buy you a beer. Thanks for your continued input...I assure you, SPEC has not turned its back on this community and we are happy to work with you or others that need assistance. Again please realize that my humor is meant in a positive light only. I am a laid back kind of guy that likes to have fun like the rest of you. I'll be back... ------------------ J. Auvil Jeremy@specclutch.com 800-828-4379 x.109
[This message has been edited by Jeremy@SPEC (edited 10-17-2007).]
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12:24 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
I think we need to look for another cause for these clutch problems.
First off, I worked as a Quality Assurance manager in the aircraft industry for 9 years. We manufactured & inspected 9858 parts for Boeing. So I know how to inspect a part & how to use inspection equipment.
Anyone who's been to my shop knows that I have a large group of Fiero transmissions that have failed to be good enough to install into the V-8 Fieros we build. Either they have bad cases or some internal problem that kept them from being usable.
We picked a few of those transmissions to inspect today.
We checked 4 of these used transmissions today for Run-out & Radial Play & we checked one of the new 6 speeds.
I took still pictures of the inspection process & I have video of each inspection that I can put up on U-Tube if anyone doubts my word.
The worst of the transmissions had runout of .004" & Radial Play of .004"
The other transmissions had even less runout & play. The new 6 speed has .001" runout & .001" Radial Play.
I don't feel that any "blame" (if there is any) can be put to the transmissions that are being used in the Fieros.
Everyone knows that I've been using Center-Force clutches for about 18 years now. The C-Force clutches over the years had a failure rate of about 1%. About 4 years ago I started mixing in the use of SPEC clutches & I've used about 40 to 50 of them since. The one clutch that Alex had a roblem with was a clutch I supplied to him but other than that one none of the SPEC clutches I've supplied has failed.
As far as I'm concerned, the SPEC clutch still has a good reputation with me & I'll continue to use them until someone come up with a reason that I shouldn't use them. In fact I'm going to be ordering more of them tomorrow.
Thanks
Archie
P.S., Please don't PM me asking to buy any of the used transmissions I have sitting on the floor. If I felt any of them were worthy of being used in a Fiero, I would have used them. Most of them are transmissions that I purchased (or customers supplied them to use in their cars) that made bad noises when we initially test drove them with V-8 swaps.
A
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02:31 PM
Fieroseverywhere Member
Posts: 4242 From: Gresham, Oregon USA Registered: Mar 2006
Raydar, to address you directly, it seems that you may need a hug (if there is anyone close to him please drop buy and make sure he has received his quota for possitive affirmation for the day). I kid, I kid...I joke with you!!!
And Raydar, remember, "Your good enough, smart enough, and dawg-gone it people like you!" Let me know if you ever get to Alabama and I will be happy to buy you a beer.
No offence Raydar but I about died laughing when I read this. Good stuff.
Jeremy: Thank you for your input. Your contribution here has shown me that you are a company that I am very willing to work with. You and a couple others here have helped to put my mind at ease. I will let you know how things turn out over the next few months. Thanks again.
Have a link to that you-tube video archie? My transmission is being tested at Aamco right now and I will let you guys know how it goes. Might be something I can do myself next time if im curious, if i see that you-tube video .
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03:42 PM
Jeremy@SPEC Member
Posts: 24 From: Birmingham, AL Registered: Oct 2007
Art, Let me know what they find (I know that you have emailed a bit more with Matt as well so keep us posted). Remember, there are other potential causes for such issues, my responses thus far have been in support of the Tech info provided by Matt initially and are directly related to the most common cause for issues of spring/cover wear on non-piloted applications. Another thing to consider is shock to the drivetrain. Miss-shifts and things of that nature can really stress a disc as well (this can also ruin the plate, input-shaft, etc...). I am not at all accusing you of miss-shifting but I wanted you to have an idea of other possible causes as well. In the end, if they find nothing else wrong with the input-shaft I would like to get the assembly back here for a check-up. This would allow us to assess the parts on a far more detailed level than pictures allow. Let me know if you have any further questions.
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04:06 PM
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
I'm surprised no-one has addressed the issue of improper clutch installation as a possible cause of some of these failures and clutch "chattering". in particular I see many experienced mechanics grab a new clutch and disk out of the box with grimy hands and play with them a wile before they slap it on. the proper way I was taught to handle a new clutch is like handling your favorite LP (us old guys remember those). Always spray the PP and flywheel friction surfaces with brakeKlean and wipe with a paper towel until it comes away clean. when you handle the disk never touch the frictrion surface, even with "clean" hands. I've used Spec, CF and Mcloed clutches in various Fiero buildups with SBC and Northstars. all clutch brands had their good and bad traits, but I've yet to have a major failure with any of them.
Russ544
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 10-17-2007).]
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05:18 PM
Jeremy@SPEC Member
Posts: 24 From: Birmingham, AL Registered: Oct 2007
Russ, I agree with your emphasis on installation and can certainly attest to the need for properly handling the product (I mentioned the potential for miss-installation previously and the effect of backwards discs). Without seeing the clutch more closely it is hard to make a call on the potential for installation error. That being said, we shall see what the trans shop finds in regards to Arts disc, and go from there.
------------------ J. Auvil Jeremy@specclutch.com 800-828-4379 x.109
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05:31 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40712 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
There are many documented cases of this happening. I did a search of "spec backwards" in the TD&Q archives. I received ten+ pages of results. Of course not all of the threads are about this issue, but enough of them are to be significant.
Jeremy... The link to the threads that I was searching is right here.
And no. I don't need the hug. Why bother? I'm already feel like I'm being stroked. (Of course, I kid. )
That's okay. You can stroke me all you want, as long as you actually fix these issues for these people, and don't leave them hanging. $300 is a lot of money to pay for a clutch that disassembles itself in less than a couple of thousand miles. (For the sake of this thread, I'll let the "backwards hub" issue die. I only brought it up because I was asked, and because you claimed to have not heard about it. You have now. I promise you that we're not delusional.)
As for me being dissatisfied with my Spec clutch? I'm not. I haven't had any real problems with my Stage 2, that I know of. I'm going to check it over, when I install my new tranny in a few days, but I don't anticipate any issues. (Any issues that have shown up, with other customers, seem to have happened within a couple of thousand miles of installation. I think I'm safe, at this point.)
I'm only speaking up because people come and go from this forum. Some people haven't heard about these issues. I've been here for eight years, and have been hearing about this stuff for several of those years. I want to make sure that people know what's what.
Anybody else... If you think I'm "out of line" and are tired of listening to me babble on, I'll happily butt out of this thread. Just say the word.
[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-17-2007).]
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06:09 PM
PFF
System Bot
fieroguru Member
Posts: 12127 From: Champaign, IL Registered: Aug 2003
I have always had good results with Spec and I have had 3 of their clutches (2+, 3 and 3+) in my SBC fiero, none of which ever failed. All of these clutches were purchased directly from spec, not through some other dealer. The first two had over 7K miles on them when I pulled them and my current one is over 5K now.
The first (stage 3) was replaced because I was pulling the tranny (tranny issue/not clutch related) while on a trip long way from home and heading further away before planning to come back home. I did not want to chance it, so in went the stage 2+. The 3 was grippy and shuddery (but never slipped) and I wanted something more docile. The stage 2+ just did not hold the power like the 3, but had excellent drivability. When I installed a rebuilt getrag, in went the stage 3+ and I have about 5000 miles on it now and love it - very good drivability and the ability to hold the power of my SBC.
About Spec customer service: My tranny breakdown happened in Birmingham, AL about 30 miles from SPEC. When I found out they were that close, I spoke with them, explained the issue with my tranny and wanting to replace the clutch. I ended up getting a rental car, taking my flywheel and old clutch/pressure plate with me. They resurfaced the flywheel and set me up with a 2+ clutch setup while I waited. They also gave me a good size discount in price for all their help and a couple of SPEC shirts.
I am curious of these failures and what ultimately caused them. When Alex had his issues with his G6 version, I went out to review the 7K stage 2+ on the shelf and did not find any wear, signs that the springs were wearing their pocket, any loose rivets, or any signs of inappropriate contact with the pressure plate fingers.
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07:22 PM
CTFieroGT87 Member
Posts: 2520 From: Royal Oak, MI Registered: Oct 2002
I'm a little bit of a nervous spectator right now, as well. I have about 200 miles on the break-in of a Stage 3 and I have the typical 1st gear chatter (which is slowly going away). Jeremy, I'm really glad you signed up and are having dialogue with us.
On the subject of non-piloted input shafts, is there a way we could convert the first bearing/seal right near the throw-out bearing into only a seal and possibly get a custom bearing made to pilot the input shaft at the crank? In the next few years I'm hoping to put some ridiculous power through a built 6spd and would rather not worry every day about the input shaft...
The spring issue is not new to other engine/transaxle makes. The Celica crowd has had issues as well. I have an '06 Lotus that uses a Celica engine/trans. I had purchased a Spec clutch and shortly thereafter, a forum member posted some pics of a Spec disc from a Celica minus a spring and several others ready to leave with it. I asked Spec about this and didn't get anywhere at first. The person on the phone appeared to be acting like this stuff doesn't happen and he had never heard of it. I knew it had and had to keep pressing. I mentioned the pictures I had and all my search time on the Celica forum revealing the problem with other Spec/Celica clutches. He finally acknowledged he was aware about this. He said the issue had been addressed. I asked what method was used to remedy the issue. I didn't get anywhere and finally asked if they had increased the thickness of the metal stampings which retain the springs. He answered "yes, that's basically what we did, I was the one who discovered that". I asked how mucht the thickness of the metal was increased but never could get an answer. So I said "what about the disc I have now, is it fixed?". He said if I had bought it recently, it probably was. Since it came directly from Spec, I assumed it was. I checked the disc with a caliper but it's really impossible to get dead accurate measurement. You can't get an instrument in there very well. The bent tabs that retain the springs are very close to .056 thick on the flywheel side and about .085 on the press. plate side.
Now my opinion:
I don't design clutches but have some knowledge of metal and understanding of how things interact. So I'll take a stab at it. Springs are very hard. The metal surrounding them isn't nearly as hard. If loading from the spring is being applied improperly or the material doesn't have sufficient surface area, it will be sacrificial. The surface area or the metal at the end of the spring is pretty minimal. It's relatively soft also. It would be better if there was more surface area for the ends of the spring to seat against. Instead, you have a stamped out window leaving .056 metal x the od of the spring on one side (flywheel side), and .086 x the spring od on the other (press. plate side). That skinny sliver of softer metal is trying to hold the ends of the spring. Not sufficient. The spring is trying to plow the metal while it compresses. The metal is yielding.
The bent tabs that are designed to keep the springs located in their windows certainly are failing. The coils are wearing them away from side loading while they compress and extend. Do it long enough and the tabs wear thin and fall away or fragment. I think it's hard to keep the spring moving in a straight line and not bending side to side and causing the wear. There is a metal plate sandwiched between the 2 outer ones. It is part of the splined hub also. It has windows which hold the springs along their centerline. The plate also rotates within the assembly and strikes the rivet/stops pins when the desired degrees of rotation are reached, hopefully before the spring goes into coil bind. In the previously paragraph, the metal at the ends of the springs start to yield. They're no longer seated flatly. This hinders the springs from moving in a straight line. So these springs probably aren't moving in an ideal manner, like valve spring for instance They bend as they compress. The picture I had of the celica disc showed it lost a tab and took the remaining outside metal with it. Now that's just part of the problem of the tab failure. I suspect there's more to be studied. There are other ways to retain springs. The method currently in used could be upgraded by use of thicker metal, heat treated metal (say 4130), or both.
I'm not trying to knock a product. However, I have all the sympathy in the world for people who buy and clutch and have it go south. I'm not sure if movement of the input shaft is a part of the cause. I'll say maybe, but not putting any money on it yet. If it is, the disc certainly isn't able to deal with it. Someone may wish to consider starting a thread with some picture of alternative spring retaining methods is in order, starting with the stock disc.
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08:35 PM
Archie Member
Posts: 9436 From: Las Vegas, NV Registered: Dec 1999
Have a link to that you-tube video archie? My transmission is being tested at Aamco right now and I will let you guys know how it goes. Might be something I can do myself next time if im curious, if i see that you-tube video .
Radar...I am not sure what you are into in your free time but your last post made me feel like I need some anti-bacterial hand sanitizer. In all seriousness, I was not aware of the issues you presented, and having read through some of the links you provided I see that there were a few issues with the hubs. In the future, I ask that any time there is an issue that you let us know. Beleive it or not your contemporaries that have had issues have not been in regular contact with us. It is great to post in a thread...it is completly different to call the manufacture and talk about the issue. Thanks again for the info...
CTF, I like the way you think, it would be nice to completely reengineer the short-comings out of all transmissions and cars in general. That being said, doing this would require time, money, and access to a number of cars with different configurations. To answer you question...anything is possible...but we are talking about a car that is no longer produced. Perhaps Archie can assist with this. We would be happy to help...but this does not seem like a project that would ever repay the initial investment.
Mike, We are always looking for ways to evolve the product. Over the past 17 years we have made numerous upgrades and changes as needed and some of these changes are specific to the spring cage. Side loading can wear the cage but this is not a consistent or even a widespread issue. In an attempt to always provide better products for the consumer we did in fact thicken the cage. We also designed the cages with releif openings that allow for better dampening and improved flex potential.
Let me know if you all have any further questions. Thanks again for your continued input.
[This message has been edited by Jeremy@SPEC (edited 10-18-2007).]
Originally posted by Jeremy@SPEC: Beleive it or not your contemporaries that have had issues have not been in regular contact with us. It is great to post in a thread...it is completly different to call the manufacture and talk about the issue. Thanks again for the info...
I had a problem with my stage 2 spec clutch in my 88 GT 3.4 swap with 282 Getrag 5 Spd. The center hub was installed backwards on the disc resulting in destroying the T/O bearing and the sleeve/seal that it rides on. Not only did I have to drop everything out to replace it, the 282 will need the case split for a new sleeve to be pressed in. I am out time, effort, and a few hundred dollars. This happened in a few miles after start up after the new clutch was installed. I sent the clutch back to spec. I did not even get a new unit! They changed the center hub around to the correct position, resurfaced the pressure plate, and sent me back the same destroyed T/O bearing! I am not a happy camper.
This weekend I found out what was wrong with my clutch system. The clutch disk that I got is the wrong application. The center hub protrudes too much in the PP side and the release bearing was hitting it and not allowing the plate to release.
This is my hobby car, if the solid hub works for Alex then I may look at that. If the car with the V8 was my DD I wouldn’t even think about using a SPEC clutch, I don’t like to gamble.
[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 10-18-2007).]
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01:03 PM
Jeremy@SPEC Member
Posts: 24 From: Birmingham, AL Registered: Oct 2007
Hey Jake, When and where did you purchase your kit? How many miles are on the assembly? Let me know and I will be happy help you. I assume that those pics were of your parts, please correct me if I am wrong. Thanks!!!
No follow the links above each quote. It can be hard to weed out the search results so I have had these bookmarked for a while now.
I will need a clutch soon, my current clutch just wont hold the TQ of my setup and I need something that will. If the solid hub works out for Alex then I will probably go that way. Last thing I want to do is destroy my tranny and clutch. Just want to make the right choice when the time comes.
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02:23 PM
Jeremy@SPEC Member
Posts: 24 From: Birmingham, AL Registered: Oct 2007
Will do! The solid hub will be fine for your application. The major difference is that it will be harsher (less progressive) than a sprung assembly. Let me know what you decide and I will be happy to assist you. Thanks again!
------------------ J. Auvil Jeremy@specclutch.com 800-828-4379 x.109
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02:26 PM
Will Member
Posts: 14219 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
Interesting Will, I was almost positive that the safe amount of play was indicated in the Haynes or any other standard manual. That being said, our discs can handle play within spec for the vehicle. I will do some digging and see what I can find in regards to the this number. Perhaps Archie can chime in on this one too...as he is bound to know off the top of his head.
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03:34 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40712 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Originally posted by Jeremy@SPEC: Radar...I am not sure what you are into in your free time but your last post made me feel like I need some anti-bacterial hand sanitizer. In all seriousness, I was not aware of the issues you presented, and having read through some of the links you provided I see that there were a few issues with the hubs. In the future, I ask that any time there is an issue that you let us know. Beleive it or not your contemporaries that have had issues have not been in regular contact with us. It is great to post in a thread...it is completly different to call the manufacture and talk about the issue. Thanks again for the info...
Okay... I'll quit being an ass. I think you got my point. (Ya' want a cigarette?)
The real issue here is that many of these folks in these threads have contacted Spec, and gotten little or no satisfaction. As I mentioned before, the story regarding the hubs keeps changing, depending upon who answers the phone. It runs the entire spectrum from "unheard of", to "we're aware of it", to "yesterday's news". And this has been going of for at least three years. (Check the posting dates of those threads.) Since many of those people got no help from Spec, they turned to their last resort. a/k/a this Forum.
To be fair, some of those folks, as well as some of the other folks who posted here, were helped.
Anyway, this stuff is fairly common knowledge, here. The "escaped" springs are becoming fairly well publicized, too. I just wonder what's going to happen, going forward.
So does everyone else.
And seriously... Thanks for your time, and any positive influence you can have upon this situation.
Well the results are in. Well no actual numbers because they would not give them to me, but Aamco also didnt charge me for measuring the run-out on my transmission which is nice of them =). Now for the bad news, the runout is out of tolerance and the bearings should be replaced ($800). In other words, Spec was right to question my input shaft and so I cannot blame them or the clutch for the failure. But, I think just by bringing this subject back to life, less people will have trouble by maybe measuring their runout before they slap a V8 to their clutch. Now however, I am looking for a new transmission and clutch. For the transmission, I will probably get it from a junkyard and measure the runout before the 90-day return is up. For the clutch, I see no reason to eliminate spec from the picture but I do know I will be going with a solid disc clutch and not a 4-6 puck. Sorry for the trouble I've caused around here in the past week. -Kyle
Well the results are in. Well no actual numbers because they would not give them to me, but Aamco also didnt charge me for measuring the run-out on my transmission which is nice of them =). Now for the bad news, the runout is out of tolerance and the bearings should be replaced ($800). In other words, Spec was right to question my input shaft and so I cannot blame them or the clutch for the failure. But, I think just by bringing this subject back to life, less people will have trouble by maybe measuring their runout before they slap a V8 to their clutch. Now however, I am looking for a new transmission and clutch. For the transmission, I will probably get it from a junkyard and measure the runout before the 90-day return is up. For the clutch, I see no reason to eliminate spec from the picture but I do know I will be going with a solid disc clutch and not a 4-6 puck. Sorry for the trouble I've caused around here in the past week. -Kyle
Thats too bad but I have to question them if they want $800 and wont give you the numbers. Do you trust them? Sorry for your troubles, lets hope that something good comes out of this. Someone should take Jeremy for a ride in a fast Fiero with gobs of TQ. I just came back from a drive and I still get a big smile on my face from the 0 to OH MY GOODNESS He wouldnt be the same and would understand why we do the crazy things we do.
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07:18 PM
Russ544 Member
Posts: 2136 From: S.W. Oregon Registered: Jun 2003
Well the results are in. Well no actual numbers because they would not give them to me, but Aamco also didnt charge me for measuring the run-out on my transmission which is nice of them =). Now for the bad news, the runout is out of tolerance and the bearings should be replaced ($800). In other words, Spec was right to question my input shaft and so I cannot blame them or the clutch for the failure. But, I think just by bringing this subject back to life, less people will have trouble by maybe measuring their runout before they slap a V8 to their clutch. Now however, I am looking for a new transmission and clutch. For the transmission, I will probably get it from a junkyard and measure the runout before the 90-day return is up. For the clutch, I see no reason to eliminate spec from the picture but I do know I will be going with a solid disc clutch and not a 4-6 puck. Sorry for the trouble I've caused around here in the past week. -Kyle
Kudos to you for stepping forward with that appology. that deffinetly earns a + back from me for the honesty. I hope it all works out for you.
Russ544
[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 10-19-2007).]
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08:26 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40712 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Thats too bad but I have to question them if they want $800 and wont give you the numbers. Do you trust them?
Yeah. That sounds pretty fishy to me. Sounds like they're trying to scare up some business. (Am I really that cynical?) But if you're happy with it, I guess that's what matters.
Again, thanks for sharing.
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10:53 PM
Oct 20th, 2007
Will Member
Posts: 14219 From: Where you least expect me Registered: Jun 2000
I now understand that this is an issue (I am refering specifically to the reversed snout on the disc) though I have not personally interacted with anyone having this specific problem. I don't take any of what you or others have said personally...in fact, I am crazy about cars too and there is nothing worse than having an issue and feeling as though there is little help available. That being said, I know that we are being vigilent about the units that are produced for this application and as such we "should" have no further issues.
Arte, as much as I am releived to hear that your issue was in fact transmission related, I hate that you had the problem no matter what the cause. As such, I will be happy to help you if you need any further parts to remedy this with a discount in pricing for the parts required (Matt is aware of my mentioning this and as such should be able to assist you).
I ask that you all let me know if you have any further issues or questions. I actually have a soft-spot in my heart for the Fiero...ever since Ferris Bueller's Day Off. It struck me as one of the most unique cars I had ever seen. Of course, to this day I am still a fan of 1961 250GT California...which really stole the show even if it was a replica. At any rate...ya'll have a great day!
Just ordered the stage 4 from matt. Its a solid disc and solid hub. Might be kind of grabby but I wanted it in case the bearings on the different transmission im getting go out. I will have my new transmission (once i find one) measured before I install the clutch. Just sucks that I've spent more on the transmission than the engine even with the delta cam =). I'm sure I will be happy with the new one. -Kyle
Just ordered the stage 4 from matt. Its a solid disc and solid hub. Might be kind of grabby but I wanted it in case the bearings on the different transmission im getting go out. I will have my new transmission (once i find one) measured before I install the clutch. Just sucks that I've spent more on the transmission than the engine even with the delta cam =). I'm sure I will be happy with the new one. -Kyle
If your experience is like mine you will be pleased with the stage 4. I think its manners has probably been exagerated. I already have over 100 miles on it and it feels like a normal clutch with no chatter and great holding capacity. It grabs quicker but if I don't tell you it is a solid hub you won't be able to tell just by driving it. And it hasn't slip since day one. You will like it. I do
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09:55 PM
aaronrus Member
Posts: 870 From: bradenton, FL USA Registered: Nov 2003
Well i'm proud to announce that the $300 spec 2+ clutch has finally exploded after only 3 months and maybe 1500 miles. I'm not very happy at this time.
I have a 4.9L v8 isuzu 5spd with a custom flywheel from LSC performance.
I've attached some pictures of the damage, basically the springs in the center wanted to jump out for whatever reason but luckily did not screwup my flywheel or the pressure plate. I'm wondering, what clutch should I replace it with. I'm pretty sure if I go with the same spec clutch its going to fail again. What do you guys use with the 4.9?
I am going through the same ordeal as you, a failed spec clutch, stage 3 though, not 2+, that failed after less than 1000 miles. i am curious as to wether or not these guys just had a bad batch of clutches.. the springless clutches would seem to have better success than these..i think something about the off-idle TQ of the 4.9L makes it tear up cluthces, no matter how smooth you engage it
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09:59 PM
aaronrus Member
Posts: 870 From: bradenton, FL USA Registered: Nov 2003
. Concerning the age of the Fiero GETRAGs and the fact that they seem to be hardly if ever rebuilt, it is quite possible that some runout of the input shaft could contribute to chatter and accelerate failure. It doesn't take much runout to create enough wobble to cause problems. It can be easily measured using a dial indicator and it's a good idea to check it before reinstalling any used Getrag.
what do you mean by "runout"? please explain.
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10:11 PM
aaronrus Member
Posts: 870 From: bradenton, FL USA Registered: Nov 2003
For some reason, the spec stage 3 we have been using in the manual swap here has killed 4 transmissions, and still showing no signs of slipping. Its been soaked in oil, a few times, and still has not shown any signs of letting up.
Based on my experience with spec, I would have to examine specific examples of failure, and possibly look for other things to be out of wack.
the problem is that now they are trying to cover up the fact that they made several batches now with substandard manufacturing quality, i think that is the point. theres plenty of people on this forum who have large amounts of TQ being applied to SPEC stage 3 clutches, and they are very successful after many thousands of miles.. it isnt until recently that problems have popped up, including with myself. I truly believe the problme lies with poor quality control. if they dont take care of their customers, they are going to lose alot of business..
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10:28 PM
aaronrus Member
Posts: 870 From: bradenton, FL USA Registered: Nov 2003
Art's next frustration revolves around the fact that we offered to sell a new disc to him at a reduced cost. Our clutches do come with a warranty, that is 120 days from the date of purchase. As I understand it, this unit was purchased more than a year ago, though it was installed more recently. That being said, I am still more than happy to speak with Art or any of your in regards to this or any other issue if need be. I am a reasonable guy, that is just as much an enthusiats as the rest of you. Remember, SPEC has been building clutches for nearly 2 decades. We are very familiar with these cars and the swaps that are common to them. As such we are also familiar with the issues that can occur as a result. Please feel free to contact me directly with any concerns you may have. Thanks for your time!
this must be a new policy. Over a year ago when i made my purchase, the clutch disc was warrantied against low-mileage factory manufacturing defects as long as the proper break-in procedure was followed, there was no 120 day limit. no offense, but that 120 day limit is bullshit, especially since every one else has a good warranty. looks liek spec quality may be going down. time to start looking for new alternatives guys..
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11:04 PM
aaronrus Member
Posts: 870 From: bradenton, FL USA Registered: Nov 2003
Joseph, this is not a situation of bate a swith. We have a less that 1% return rate on every clutch we build (this includes units that are ordered incorrectly, returned for refreshening, and those that come back for warranty). Anything that is returned to us is logged and accounted for in a system that we use to track the product. We offer a number of options for our customers including sprung and rigid disc options. There are great successes with both, and Matts offer of a reduced price on another disc was a nicety. Remember, this unit is more than a year old (and the warranty is based on days not miles). That being said, I can understand your perspective...but I think it may be a bit clouded. Let me know if you have any further questions.
that doesnt change the fact that this is the third thread in the last few months where a SPEC stage three clutch has failed because the springs popped out. the fact that there are many installs that are successful though proves tht you manfactured those three clutches with inferior parts and/or quality control. I am gonna be number 4 to ad to this list, 1000 miles on my clutch total, proper break-in performed for 500 miles, and it still failed, despite the fact that it was attached to a newly rebuilt transmission
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11:18 PM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40712 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
Yeah. That sounds pretty fishy to me. Sounds like they're trying to scare up some business. (Am I really that cynical?) But if you're happy with it, I guess that's what matters.
Again, thanks for sharing.
agreed, sounds to me liek you should just buy a newly rebuilt tranny, hhahahah
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01:22 AM
Raydar Member
Posts: 40712 From: Carrollton GA. Out in the... country. Registered: Oct 1999
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