Hey all,
I wish I was offering good advice but instead I'm looking for it. I would like to get into chip burning and was wondering if anyone had any good links (reads) on how to get started. I want to turbo my 2.8 but I wonder if I can just throw in some 24lbs injectors (with a fuel regulator) and hope for the best. Does the ECM know how to adjust fuel when I increase the injector size? (like with map and o2)
I think I will have to adjust timing to prevent detonation though, clear egr and etc... so hence my need to get started with tunercat and programming. Also I wonder if anyone has a .bin file I could open with the trial tunercat to learn with. (actually a .bin file for a 2.8 with .63 a/r turbo would be sweet).
It's all over my head right now so any suggestions or direction would be appreciated.
Thanks

quote Originally posted by Bubbajuju: Hey all, I wish I was offering good advice but instead I'm looking for it. I would like to get into chip burning and was wondering if anyone had any good links (reads) on how to get started. I want to turbo my 2.8 but I wonder if I can just throw in some 24lbs injectors (with a fuel regulator) and hope for the best. Does the ECM know how to adjust fuel when I increase the injector size? (like with map and o2) I think I will have to adjust timing to prevent detonation though, clear egr and etc... so hence my need to get started with tunercat and programming. Also I wonder if anyone has a .bin file I could open with the trial tunercat to learn with. (actually a .bin file for a 2.8 with .63 a/r turbo would be sweet). It's all over my head right now so any suggestions or direction would be appreciated. Thanks

Tunercat is where I started, you will need the 1985 ecm which has a 2Bar MAP option and proper 2Bar spark table. It also has a knock sensor option. You have to specify the 85 2 bar bin file. The bin files with the definition file needed to view them in proper sequence can be obtained from Tunercat. A free example definition file and bin comes with it, you will have to purchase the definition file for the Fiero. There are many choices for chip burning equipment so I would look at what's available in addition to what others are using. I opted for something expensive which could program a wide range of chips and also because I started looking into it long before tuning programs were readily available. I would recommend you do the ecm swap to the 730 ecm at some point.

If you have no experience it will take some time to get adequate understanding before you start tampering with programming, you need to know the effects before you make the changes as well as have safeguards like an airfuel ratio meter in place. You should pick up the turbo "manual" Maximum Boost, the questions you need to know the answers to can not realistically be garnerred from threads like this because there are so many perameters that need to be covered before you put a turbo on a non turbo car. Case in point, my very first turbo project was a twin turbo IROC Z28 around 1995. I built a fresh engine with a big roller camshaft and aftermarket fuel management, put it in the car and burned up the rings on the first run because I felt I could behave with the wastegates disconnected on a 9:1 compression TPI motor with no intercooling, immediately the boost level hit 10-12 psi and the engine fell over. If I had at least let the rings have time to seat it might not have been so bad but in a matter of 3-4 seconds they were cooked and I had to drive the car with the PCV valve disconnected to keep the engine from smoking up the city, until I got around to fixing it. I did however get to drive it for a good while in that condition but slowly the blow by began to creep from under the hood and I got tired of seeing it.

You need books and the proper equipment, otherwise you are jumping feet first into a hole much deeper than you have imagined. Pick a start point and progress, don't try to do it all at once.

http://www.diy-efi.org/gmec...o/1227730/qanda.html

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 10-10-2007).]

Thanks Joseph,
I will do just that, (keep gathering info and I will get a copy of "Maximum Boost"). I appreciate your time and info. Sorry about that IROC motor. That story was an eye opener for me. I would like to build up a 3.4 pushrod just for a turbo and in the meantime go ahead and blow up my 2.8 (slowly hopefully) with salvaged turbos and injectors while I am in the learning process. Learning to program chips seems like something I will enjoy. Thanks for your direction. Hopefully one day I will be able to help a new guy as well.

I would also suggest the ECU upgrade, the idea seems very valid to me.

Yeah, I had seen mention of the 85 ecm in other posts but I wasn't aware until now that you couldn't mod the later ecm for a 2 bar map. So much to learn but it is interesting. Thanks for the leads.

You can mod the later ECMs for a 2 bar map same as the '85. The advantage of the '85 is the knock sensor option. No matter which one you use you have to modify the fuel/spark tables.

The problem with older ECMs (as I understand it) is that the fuel/spark tables are something like 8X8 cells where later ECMs are 12X12 cells. You just have less to work with as you squeeze all the N/A stuff to the left to accommodate the boosted cells. That is why I swapped to the 7730 ECM: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/079574.html

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 10-11-2007).]

I never encountered a bin file for the 86 up ecm that had a spark table scaled for a 2 Bar MAP sensor although the 2 Bar MAP switch was in the code which pretty much made it the same as non boosted code. The 730 is also a faster ecm which really shines above the Fiero Ecm when datalogging since it updates info much more frequently I understand.

While youre at it; add a bong for a wideband sensor on your Y pipe just BEFORE the turbo and T-off the + leed from your map sensor.

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[IMG]



Trueleo.com/fiero.htm
RSpiderII@aol.com

quick tip: do NOT cheap out on the eprom burner. I have about 5 of them here that will burn lots of different chips EXCEPT the fiero stock ecm. Expect to pay $250-$350 for a burner that will do the stock eprom reliably. I had to finally bite the bullet and buy a real one after blowing $350.00 on 5 other cheapies that they say will do the job but in fact will not. Basically if the burner is a "WILLEM" type it will not burn the chip in the stock fiero ecm. Also keep away from the "genius" brands of eprom burners. those also are junk.

Tunercat is cool. tunerpro is free. I went tunerpro as it's far more advanced and happily lets you into trouble. but I started with gmepro and tunercat. if you are going stock fiero only then gmepro is a free place to start that is nice. A bin sample to open with tunercat? nope. you gotta buy the ECM definition file. for the ecm. that is why I abandoned tunercat. got tired of dropping $20.00 every time I turned around for ECM definition files.

Also, stay away from most of the "ecm tuning books" out there. they really do not tell you anything. you need to understand how your engine works. completely.

do you know what happens to the engine when the AF goes from 16.2 to 11.5 at 4500 rpm or how about if you change your advance from 2 to 7 at that rpm? no? then you will not understand what happens when you change a point in your tables. you need to understand that stuff first.

Chip tuning can be fun, and you end up as a magical wizard to most car guys as they are incredibly afraid of it because it seems to be really advanced. it's not. just like turboing a car is actually really really easy.

Oh I suggest learning to weld and getting a welder. If you have a good and correct salvage turbo, you can turbo your car for peanuts. turbo your lawnmower, turbo anything.

But, dont do what the guys do on the ricer boards. figure out what is right for the car instead of "I found a T5/T4 hybrid in the dirt at the junkyard! I'm gonna slap it on my car and get 9000HP!", guys with always leaking turbos just slapped one in. get the right turbo and it will last as long as the engine does. get the wrong one and you eat up the bearings fast or grenade it in the worst case, or you get no boost just heated air in the other direction.

FREEBIE TURBO TIP:
the 2.8 can use the pre 87 Thunderbird T3 turbo. it is correct. the post 87 is not correrct and is too small. that is a quick and dirty one for you to get started. and get a turbo and order your rebuild kit.

also look in the turbos for dummies thread for more info. hudini and others have posted their wisdom on their setups that will make your life easier.

you CAN turbo the car getto style by slapping in any old thing you can find, not tuning the ecm and not adding a knock sensor. but expect the engine to die every time you start the engine. expect the turbo to die., etc... if you want to do it right and actually know what you are doing. Get out the scientific calculator from highschool/college and start studying. The car guy that does the math is always way better than the guys that dont. (when I say die I mean it will never ever run again and will need to be pulled out and thrown away.)

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 10-11-2007).]

I can't thank you guys enough for replying to my thread. I get home from work looking forward to logging on and I am blown away by how much I appreciate this forum.

Ok, alot to discern here.

Hudini thanks for the link to the ecm upgrade post. I will read it 100 times over I'm sure.

Francis T, I will look into what a wideband sensor is and save that for my advanced project down the line.

Timgray I won't cheap out on the burner. I had no idea tunerpro existed I will download it immediately. Is there a way to see in realtime what your a/f and timing are doing so that you know what to change? Do you just use winaldl and monitor o2? This is where I get apprehensive. Big, Big learning curve if I have to fill in blanks. I'm pretty good with a welder and understand what I must do to keep heat from cracking everything. (expansion joints and no mild steel in critical places) I am going to go with your turbo freebie tip. I need to get all of this stuff together and start learning. I will hunt the junkyards this weekend.

Here's the next question. I weld up the tbird turbo. I learn more about wastegates. I let mine dump all but 2 or 3 psi. Do I need a 2 bar map? Will my stock injectors and computer figure out what I did to it or will it just stall and I will be screwed until I learn to program or get some help from a programer.
I will go read the turbos for dummies thread again and again.

Thanks to everyone.

I really like turbos and just finished mine yesterday. Having some tuning issues myself so I am in the same boat as you except it's time to start tuning. No more theory, lol.

You do need a 2 bar MAP anytime you are making boost (up to 14.7 psi) and you want the ECM to control things. There are ways of not using the 2 bar MAP but they are suspect. I saw a website where the gent put a rising rate boost referenced fuel pressure regulator and a turbo on a stock Honda. And off he went. No tuning, no nothing. He was counting on his knock sensor and fuel pressure to keep his car from blowing up. The key is if you want the ECM to control fuel delivery then you need the 2 bar MAP and ECM tuned to match. My .02

Thanks Hudini.
It sounds like learning to tune is going to need to come before slapping on the TBird turbo. I was just hoping for some instant gratification without a non running motor or a hole in a piston. But thats ok, I want to learn tuning.

Darth Fiero at Sinister Performance can get you a good starting point chip. He has done 3 for me and all got the car up and running. Mail order tuning is not easy and I applaud his skill. For a precise tune it's gonna take hands on the car.

I will get the turbo and then pm Darth and see what he says.
Thanks Hudini
It would be nice to play and then learn as I go.

so I am over at the 60degreev6 site and I am looking at the download section for .bin files and definitions to play with. Could anyone tell me which .bin (a1, df, 6d, 88, etc.) and definition file I should be using just to play with in tunerpro? I get lost and don't know how to figure out how the prom number (mine is APS0168), how the ecm number (mine is 1227170) and how the definitions file number are found. Is there a table out there somewhere? My brain is fried for the night. I should sleep now.
Also now I understand that oem .bin files are "copywrited" so I won't be asking for them anymore. But definition files are shareable right? I realize they are someones hard work though. Are modified .bin files shareable?

[This message has been edited by Bubbajuju (edited 10-12-2007).]

EDMOND OK!!! thats where i am!!!!! call me tomorrow, well hang out if ya want. ive got a 3.4 and im about to turbo it. i just went through the local yards today...no luck. give me a call and well talk the down and dirty on turbos and i can show you my car. ive got a good start here. Ive really started getting into turbos and have a good grasp on the basics of turbo design and function, and i have that book maximum boost if ya wanna take a look at it. ive got some good conections in this area with a lot of the turbo guys (mostly imports, but its ok, they were my friends before they bought imports ). i also have a vast knoledge on the ecm swap and a healthy bit of knowledge on the tunning of the ecm (but id still rather take it to someone for the tunning on a dyno!)

360-471-0684

i work at bob moore in norman as a service advisor (actually i start on monday, i just got outa the navy on the 2nd of this month)

my fiero is a 3.4 with crane 272, 1.6 rr, trueleo headers, trueleo intake, 24lb injectors, 7730 ecm, stainless valves, 2.5 inch exhaust piping, crx intake, mustang 65mm tb, and a whole other host of mods.

Mine is the 1227730 and $8F code mask from a '91 Turbo Grand Prix. Not sure what the stock Fiero uses.

Thanks Hudini and Merlot,
That gives me an idea of what to shoot for to play with tunerpro.

awesome, ive got today off as well. i got a few things from the junkyard yesterday that i was gonna see what i can do with. i found a buick 'ultra', '99 ish and it had a temp/ compass/ auto dim rear mirror, i am planning to rig that up. and i got a perfect sized oil cooler from a saab, and a lower intake from a 3.4

[This message has been edited by merlot566jka (edited 10-12-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Hudini: Mine is the 1227730 and $8F code mask from a '91 Turbo Grand Prix. Not sure what the stock Fiero uses.

I've seen the "code mask" term thrown around - what is it? I am planning the 7730 ECM myself - but when people say I need a certain "code mask" - it makes me wonder WTF they are talking about? is it like a BIOS? a certain chip inside the ECM I look for?

I wonder what a mask means as well. Would someone like to throw out a link or quote or define how bin, def and mask all fit together?

Also Hudini I wonder how your tune and turbo is going.

As I understand it (and I am an amateur at best) bin is short for binary file. Code mask is how the actual information is arranged on the binary file, i.e. which tables are used, etc.

I have not done any tuning myself as I need to purchase the tools first. My plan is to datalog using TunerPro and send the information to Darth for a new chip. One of these days I will purchase Craig Moate's Ostrich 2.0 for a little realtime tuning. For $175 plus $30 to register TunerPro RT, it's gonna be a couple weeks to get the cash.

The code mask just says where and what the info is. Chips carry the code and the info. the code tells the cpu what to do and the info(tables) are the parameters. Think of the code or code mask as the OS, a computer can run many different OSes, but only if it is written for the computer. The parameters are what gets changed or moddified when you "tune". A deffinition file tells tunercat where and what bits are code and what are parameters. as different code masks store info at different locations in the code.

Hope this helps

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"DRIVE IT LIKE A FIERO"
'84 Fiero, engine to be determined
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!!
Las Vegas Fiero Club
Fiero Road Club Of Northern Nevada

Thanks Hudini and Sardonyx,
I met with Merlot566jka today and I am sold on the 7730 ecm. My question now is if I used the $8f mask I would need to find an $8f .bin and a $8f definition file, right?
Also Sardonyx, when you say the ($8f) grand prix turbo code only supports a few psi of boost ("well that is all it is written for") does that mean you can still program more in or will more not be supported?
(thanks for bearing with me here, I know some of you are thinking "Gee this guy just doesn't get it.")

youll basicly have to keep going where gm left off on the fuel and spark tables, mainly from the map inputs vs the fuel. not hard, as there should be a trend in there (basicly a round about formula that will alow you to get close to what the fuel vs kpa or whatever needs to be) gm didnt plan on a high boost 3.1, so i think it only goes to 5 or 6 psi. anything more and you may have to pull some timing, make up for extra intake heat and watch that stft

quote Originally posted by Bubbajuju: Thanks Hudini and Sardonyx, I met with Merlot566jka today and I am sold on the 7730 ecm. My question now is if I used the $8f mask I would need to find an $8f .bin and a $8f definition file, right? Also Sardonyx, when you say the ($8f) grand prix turbo code only supports a few psi of boost ("well that is all it is written for") does that mean you can still program more in or will more not be supported? (thanks for bearing with me here, I know some of you are thinking "Gee this guy just doesn't get it.")

you need the .BIN for the comp and the def for tunercat or what ever you use to tune, they each have thier own.
Like merlot was saying the tables just dont change past a certain boost level, they just keep going at the last point.
very simple example: 1 2 3 4 5 6 6 6 6 6 6 6
You can program more in. But you have to write your own tables past that point.

ok gotcha. Heres another question I found while reading the Turbos for Dummies thread. (https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/085221-2.html).

Hudini, I don't understand how to run 5-7psi of boost and yet have Darth tune for 42-45psi? "5-7psi should keep the detonation at bay with enough fuel programmed into the ECM and the injectors can handle it. Any more boost and you need to start thinking about lower compression, alcohol injection, intercooler, bigger injectors, etc. I added an adjustable regulator JIC. I asked Darth to tune for 42-43psi though."
I was thinking that if you are running five to seven psi you would have to tune for just that?
Thanks all.

that is way too high to tune for.
every time you add a bar (14.7) psi you lose resolution as you have to cram more info into the same space. only tune for what you want in bar incramints. If you only want 14.7 or less boost then tune for 2 bar.

quote Originally posted by merlot566jka: youll basicly have to keep going where gm left off on the fuel and spark tables, mainly from the map inputs vs the fuel. not hard, as there should be a trend in there (basicly a round about formula that will alow you to get close to what the fuel vs kpa or whatever needs to be) gm didnt plan on a high boost 3.1, so i think it only goes to 5 or 6 psi. anything more and you may have to pull some timing, make up for extra intake heat and watch that stft

The 8F code for the 3.1 should support 1.9 bar or around 13 psi, that much programming is present in the stock tables from what I have seen in it. The stock boost programming is set at around 7-8 psi but that's not where the boost tables end, they can be changed with Tunercat or Tunerpro for a higher boost level along with the other necessary table changes to accomodate it. The spark table doesn't go up to 2 Bar falling short at 190 Kpa as opposed to 200 Kpa.

I have found a 10.6 psi limit in the code, a member on the Z24 forum is running about 10 psi with the 8F code without a problem but some I believe are suggesting it will go higher than that. If you want to run 15 psi it shouldn't be to difficult at all since the stock programming is close. You'll have to use a diode to prevent the ECM from seeing it's max boost capability at which point it will cut fuel or spark. The properly chosen diode will limit the MAP signal to just under its peak voltage for over boost tricking the ECM, you'll just have to make sure your wastegates open when they are supposed to and that your spark table limit is enough to prevent detonation, not to mention added fuel.

http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_map.html

http://www.v6z24.com/jbodyf...t,tune+tgp+code.html

quote Originally posted by Hudini: I really like turbos and just finished mine yesterday. Having some tuning issues myself so I am in the same boat as you except it's time to start tuning. No more theory, lol. You do need a 2 bar MAP anytime you are making boost (up to 14.7 psi) and you want the ECM to control things. There are ways of not using the 2 bar MAP but they are suspect. I saw a website where the gent put a rising rate boost referenced fuel pressure regulator and a turbo on a stock Honda. And off he went. No tuning, no nothing. He was counting on his knock sensor and fuel pressure to keep his car from blowing up. The key is if you want the ECM to control fuel delivery then you need the 2 bar MAP and ECM tuned to match. My .02

you technically CAN turbo that way , as it's kind of how they did it back in the mechanical timing days. My grandfather was a old time hotrodder and he had a system that would adjust timing based on pressure. as the manifold pressure went up the timing was changed. But you never hear of old turbo hotrods and race cars lasting very long. Problem is turboing that way is good if you do not car about the car and part of the excitement is replacing the engine often because of holes blown in cylinders or rings blown out.

Honestly it's the guys that dont know what they are doing and blow up their car or go through 5-7 turbos in a year that fuel the rumors that turbos blow up your engine, they dont last long, or are very hard to do.

quote Originally posted by Bubbajuju: ok gotcha. Heres another question I found while reading the Turbos for Dummies thread. (https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/085221-2.html). Hudini, I don't understand how to run 5-7psi of boost and yet have Darth tune for 42-45psi? "5-7psi should keep the detonation at bay with enough fuel programmed into the ECM and the injectors can handle it. Any more boost and you need to start thinking about lower compression, alcohol injection, intercooler, bigger injectors, etc. I added an adjustable regulator JIC. I asked Darth to tune for 42-43psi though." I was thinking that if you are running five to seven psi you would have to tune for just that? Thanks all.

42-45psi fuel pressure not boost. I asked Darth for 7psi at normal (42-45psi) fuel pressure.

quote Originally posted by Hudini: My boost hit 10psi at which point the SES light came on and the engine power cut out. I let off the gas and the engine recovered. I think I hit the point you mentioned where the ECM cut fuel and spark. Now who said a T3 won't make more than 5psi? EDIT: Forgot to mention the SES code was Wastegate Overboost and MAP Sensor Voltage High.

Perhaps one of the few members really good at following computer program code can point out the address for the 10 psi limit so it can be changed to 15 psi to fix that. It can't be much more than an IF >10 psi THEN statement. After that they can complete the main spark table by taking it all the way up to 200 Kpa. I wish it was that simple to convert the 749 ecm to run DIS since it is already capable of 14 psi boost. I believe it would be a much better ECM to work with for turbo 3800 engines being only a little shy of 4.3L. It would certainly eliminate some of the tuning woes as a result of all the extra parameters.

quote Originally posted by Hudini: 42-45psi fuel pressure not boost. I asked Darth for 7psi at normal (42-45psi) fuel pressure.

Sorry Hudini, I see now. Duh.

On another note how did you like that 10psi? That sounds like plenty of boost for me for now! How did it run?