Hello, I have literally been working on a 4.9 swap for two years. If there were only 27 hours in a day. I have finally finished everything and I have tried and tried and it will just not start. It seems to be firing from the intake and shooting big fire balls out the exhaust. I have reinstalled the distributer twice and checked spark plug wires. It seems to be a timing issue to me. If it were a sticking valve it would run to a certain exstint, right? Anyway it is a '93 Deville engine, PCM etc. Ed Parks harness and mounts. I am just at a complete loss. Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Does it fire up then shut right down? If so you probably need a new chip burned for the ECM? The bypass resistors (or whatever they are called) that Ed provides work sometimes but not all the time. I think we tried 3 of them but ended up with a reprogrammed chip.

Just a thought,

Dan

Welcome to the forum, where in FL are you? Might have someone close by that could be of some help.
Good Luck
Gary

I've had horrible luck with coil problems on two seperate 4.9's But even with a coil problem the car still ran, just very shitty. Check for spark on a couple plugs (have someone crank while you arc the plug and wire to the valve cover or some other ground, otherwise a timing light does the same thing). Otherwise check for fuel / fuel pressure (should be around 40# in the rail)
If you had messed with the rotor on the distrubutor, perhaps that is turned 180 deg. You should be able to get it to do something other than spit and pop even if your timing is way off.

Not to sound stupid but... this is the first engine I have ever touched with a distributor. You bring #1 to TDC 0 deg on the timing mark and then drop the distributor in with the rotor between 8 & 1.

Bring #1 up on COMPRESSION stroke and then line up the marks on the dampner to TDC. It sounds like you might have the distributor 180° out. I like to use a sharpie marker and mark the distributor body exactly in line with the distributor cap terminal that I want to use as #1. Then you line the rotor up (with the cap off) to that mark WHEN THE DISTRIBUTOR IS FULLY SEATED. If you watch, the rotor will turn as you drop it in due to the helical cut of the gears so you have to "lead" it by several degrees.

#1, make sure you are at TDC on the COMPRESSION STROKE
#2, line up the rotor with the terminal you want to use as #1 on the distributor cap.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by 882m8: Not to sound stupid but... this is the first engine I have ever touched with a distributor. You bring #1 to TDC 0 deg on the timing mark and then drop the distributor in with the rotor between 8 & 1.

...what jstricker said...

Definetly sounds like the timing is out by 180 degrees...remove the #1 plug, turn the crank by hand till you feel trhe air coming out of the spark plug hole (compression stroke), line up 0 degrees to the timing mark, install distributor so the rotor lines up with the #1 position. The distributor is marked which is #1, the #1 cylinder is the one closest to the water pump (stamped on the intake manifold). Also check to make sure your wires are correct - as stupid as this sounds, it is easy to over look.

Once running and up to temp, you will need to set the base timing. Jumper ALDL pins A & B, set to 10 BTDC (note: engine at 800 rpm or less). Good to go.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 10-04-2007).]

quote Originally posted by GKDINC: Welcome to the forum, where in FL are you? Might have someone close by that could be of some help. Good Luck Gary

i live in FL.. if you didnt get your 4.9L chip reprogrammed to remove the VATS, i can provide that service, as well as ad the "fastchips" fuel and spark tables to ad performance. email me directly at stickpony@gmail.com if interested

Okay, I checked all the wires, they are correct. I also set # 1 to zero and installed the distributor again... Can the distributor itself go bad? I really appreciate all the help... It is just so frustrating that it won't work... So close but yet so so so far away... Distributor does turn counterclockwise right?

The 4.9 distributor does rotate CCW.

[This message has been edited by sanderson (edited 10-04-2007).]

doesnt matter now guys, he threw a rod, game over

What makes you thing I threw a rod?

quote Originally posted by 882m8: What makes you thing I threw a rod?

my bad, soemone PMed me with a VERY similar screename as yours, saying he threw a rod and the project was over because he was going to concentrate on a mini-van project. my bad... anyways, the problem is most likely that you have the VATS enabled in your PCM still. If you didnt have someone disable the VATS code in your chip, then it is definately the problem. i can burn a new chip for you, as well as give you the "fastchips" performance tune which accoridng to their site adds 20 Hp and 15 ft. lbs of TQ to a stock motor. i believe i sent you a PM, if not, email me directly at stickpony@gmail.com, or call me at 561-201-6191

OK....We've built two 4.9 / 4T60E combos so far. Both used the "Parks" harness....which in reality is built by Injection Technology.

Now...before I go any further, let me say that I appreciate all the hard work that went into designing and building a specialty harness for us 4.9 Fiero swappers, and I certainly don't mean to badmouth anyone....BUT......

Both harnesses had issues. To make two long stories as short as possible, the first car wouldn't even crank. After 2 weeks of tracing wires, we rewired the miswired C500 plug and it would now crank but wouldn't start. After another 2 weeks of beating our heads against the wall, we found the problem. The 5 cavity distributor plug was wired 180 degrees off. We repinned that portion of the harness, and the car started right up.

On car #2, it started and ran fine immediately, but the transmission wouldn't shift. I had 3rd gear and reverse only, and second if I pulled it down manually. For three weeks we searched for the problem, and then I did what I should have done in the first place and posted the problem here. The issue was that I was using a 1994 Deville drivetrain, and the transmission plug is wired differently than the 1991-1993 setups. 5 minutes of splicing, and I had all 4 gears and the converter locks just like it should. I specifically told Injection Technologies the year of the drivetrain, but was never informed that I would have to rewire this portion of the harness myself, nor how to do it. Thanks to the fine folks on PFF....my car now runs just fine.

Now.....all that said, start looking at your distributor wiring on the harness. Ensure that you have 12 volts at the BATT terminal, and then post what color wire coincides with which cavity on the 5 pin distributor harness. Therein may lie the problem. It wouldn't be the first miswired harness they've shipped out for $700.

Again....many thanks to Ed for designing the harness and Injection Technology for building it. I in no way mean to insult them, and I'm grateful for their efforts. None of us are perfect, and mistakes happen.

Once you've determined that you have fuel pressure, compression, and the distibutor timing is correct, I'd start looking for a miswired harness.

Good luck with the project.

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: .. anyways, the problem is most likely that you have the VATS enabled in your PCM still. If you didnt have someone disable the VATS code in your chip, then it is definately the problem.

...uh...no, the car will start without the VATS disabled, it just won't stay running - it will shut down short after it fires (ask me how I know this)...if the car is not firing (starting), then it is an ignition problem. Check the wiring as suggested - could be a bad module, but I would eliminate the wiring first.

Now, the VATS could also be at fault, but you have get the car running first to find that out.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 10-05-2007).]

You know on that note. I checked the VATS bypass and it was out 180. Should the wire colors be the same on each side of the distributor connector. What is the likelyhood of the being an internal engine problem like stuck valves? I sure hope it is not that. I already had to change the engine once because of all that liquid florida sunshine and it not being covered enough.

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: ...uh...no, the car will start without the VATS disabled, it just won't stay running - it will shut down short after it fires (ask me how I know this)...if the car is not firing (starting), then it is an ignition problem. Check the wiring as suggested - could be a bad module, but I would eliminate the wiring first. Now, the VATS could also be at fault, but you have get the car running first to find that out.

he just said in the first post that it is firing though..

quote Originally posted by 882m8: You know on that note. I checked the VATS bypass and it was out 180. Should the wire colors be the same on each side of the distributor connector. What is the likelyhood of the being an internal engine problem like stuck valves? I sure hope it is not that. I already had to change the engine once because of all that liquid florida sunshine and it not being covered enough.

It will run with a sticking valve - not too well (no power) but it will run (I have a sound file of mine with an exhaust valve not opening here: http://members.shaw.ca/efog/Pen/4.9/run.mp3 )

Don't go by wire colors - trace them out, the distributor plug is marked:

distributor plug - ecm plug

E - C5
A - C8
D - D9
C - C7
B - D8

Thanks for all the input. This is a three day weekend for me, gotta love Christopher Colombus. I really want to have the car running by Monday at the latest. I checked the distributor wiring back to the PCM and it was correct. So I thought I would pull the ICM to have it checked and found all the wires that plug into it have essentially fell apart. All the plastic had fell of and it looks really rough... Gotta replace the distributor I guess.

Well it was the distributor... Replaced it and it fired up. It runs great I do still have a few issues. 1. No speedo ( peged at full scale) it worked prior to swap or interior lights? the guage lights do work. 2. I can't get it into drive... The shift arm ? will not clear the exhaust. 4. Need the pinouts of the '94 tranny so I can change the harness. 5. I think I am going to have a problem with the gear ratios... The tranny is 3.33 and the PCM is expecting 2.XX. 6. Gas gauge is pegged at full scale. 7. It also seems that the battery is not strong enough to start it. I am using a group 26 battery it is small but the original seemed to not fit anymore. I just get a click when I do not have jumper cables hooked up. Who sells the kits to relocate the battery? My battery support is trashed anyway. I am so happy though.. it has taken me so long to get this done. Also, I have removed the truck... the folks who have done this... where do you mount your exhaust hangers to?

quote Originally posted by 882m8: . 4. Need the pinouts of the '94 tranny so I can change the harness.

Email sent.

and from when I had the same issue using a '94 drivetrain....courtesy of PFF member OPM2000

quote Here's how Ed described it on your 7 pin round transmission plug -the wire in G should go to B -the wire in F should go to A -the wire in B should go to C

Congrats on getting it running....it's a great feeling when it first fires...and when you take it for your first ride.

[This message has been edited by Frizlefrak (edited 10-08-2007).]

Con-grads are in order.
Joe Crawford

Thanks it does feel great... The issue I am most curious about is the shift arm thing... I am not really sure how to cut that thing down and make it work.

I'll see if I can dig up the dimensions on how Jeff88 and I did ours. I know we flipped it 180 degrees and flattened it, but I believe we shortened it as well to get the detents to line up correctly. Maybe I can get Jeff to chime in.....

quote Originally posted by 882m8: it does feel great....

Wait till you smoke your first ricer with it.....will put a big 'ol grin on your face.

[This message has been edited by Frizlefrak (edited 10-08-2007).]

Update. I have worked out the shifter issue. It seems as though I did not install the crossover pipe correctly. I loosened it and tightened a little more at the top little less at the bottom and now it works, the shifter anyway. I picked up a muffler assembly for a 350z it looks as though with a little cutting and twisting of the pipe it should fit well. Need to know how to post pictures so you guys can see the progress. Also, I have relocated the battery to the front... it is currently in a marine box perched on top of the spare tire. Where does everybody get the box to put it under the spare. Still have the issue of the fuel and speedo being pegged that stumps me... I'll keep you guys updated thanks for all the help...

Well guys I think you all abandoned me just kidding. Took the first drive. Something must be broken... It truely did not feel much different than the duke. My last fiero before this was a 3.4 done by Ed Parks with 3.16 gears auto it seems as though it would have outran it all day. This is 1.5 liters bigger with 3.33 gears. Does not having backpressure from the muffler make that large of a difference? Also... I noticed that the radiator fan did not kick on when it hit about 220 I shut it off. If I unplug the coolant sensor fan kicks on but no start... I guess it is time to scan it and see what is wrong? Do you think with it having shot fire out of the thottle body when the distributor was bad it could have damaged the IAT sensor? I know that if there is no CTS signal it substitutes in IAT value... No signal from IAT = no start because it just has no idea what temp the engine is at...

BTW no flames please... I drive a '07 civic as my daily driver ... it is not as if I am used to driving a "fast car" Something must be wrong.

Something is wrong. The 4.9 isn't a fantastic quarter mile setup, but from stoplight to stoplight, it is very quick. If you're accustomed to driving a duke, it would be night and day.

Start with the basics......fuel pressure (35-40 lbs), timing, codes, etc. Check every sensor on the engine. As for your cooling issue, what procedure did you use to burp the cooling system when you refilled it? It's quite possible you have air in the system.

On my 4.9, I wired a dash mounted switch to control the fan. The only time I need it is sitting in traffic. I live in a very hot climate, and even in the dead of summer, it never gets over 190-200. I'm using the stock 4 cyl radiator....if all is working correctly, you should have similar results.

Do you have access to a scan tool? That would be my next step. It sounds like something may be amiss with how the sensors are wired. Also ensure that your injectors are wired correctly to the ECM. If you have an infrared thermometer, check to see if you have a cold exhaust manifold on one or more cylinders....indicating that one isn't firing.

I know getting one to run correctly can be a challenge (believe me, I know) but the end result will be worth it. Keep plugging away at it....you'll get it.

Well I took the hose from the engine to pipe and filled it with coolant... waited til it ran out the radiator... Put the cap back on and kept pouring in the hose until it came out the thermostat housing... then filled up the 1 inch hose for the heater.

I used a GM Tech on it and the only codes it has is PCM battery reset... and Cruise servo something...

BTW the PCM never turns on the fan... I can make it turn on with the a/c button... This seems to make it run cooler but it is still very warm.

Replaced the IAT and CTS...

I did have my brother drive it and he seems to think I just had my expectations too high. After he got back into his Colorado he immediately called me to tell me that it now felt really slow

I think that having previously blown up a N* Eldorado by overheating it I just am very concerned about the temp and really afraid of giving it any gas... and yes I know the 4.9 and n* are very different engines.

Guess I will check the timing tomorrow. How far would it have to be out to make it run hot from timing alone?