I just recently painted my car and am now doing the post wet sanding and buffing. I wasn't sure where to post this question. I decided to post here, if that is wrong, feel free to rake me over the coals. After wet sanding I get the customary haze, but am having difficulty getting the haze totally gone. I am using rubbing compound and a 10" random orbital buffer. (note: not a high speed buffer, the $30 kind) I believe the buffer is my biggest stumbling block. I do not have $200 or more to buy a quality high speed buffer. I do have a 5" grinder that I can buy a buffing pad and bonnets for. My question is will this work? My concerns are that it is too high speed and that it is not random. After reading other threads I haven't seen this question addressed but it does appear that Roger Garrison is the resident paint expert. If I can't get an answer here, I'll PM him. Thanks in advance.

Jim

Not enough details, what grit sandpaper did you stop at? I go as far as 2000 grit then rubbing compound and then polishing compound. if you stopped at 1000 you will have to do a lot of rubbing compound to get those scratches to go away.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 09-13-2007).]

What on earth did you paint your car with that it needs sanding?
Basecoat clearcoat is so simple and needs nothing after it is painted.......

Just wondering.........

It was basecoat then clearcoat, and I went to 1500 on the sand paper. I painted it in a garage so it was not totally sterile. Dust and stuff still got on the clearcoat. Typhoon, unless you painted yours in a booth, you would need some wet sanding for a smooth finish.

Jim

quote Originally posted by typhoon: What on earth did you paint your car with that it needs sanding? Basecoat clearcoat is so simple and needs nothing after it is painted....... Just wondering.........

only for a daily driver or 5 foot paint job. Every high end show car I have seen took the car from the paint shop and then wet sanded and buffed it out. That is the only way to get the always wet liquid glass look.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 09-13-2007).]

quote Originally posted by timgray: only for a daily driver or 5 foot paint job. Every high end show car I have seen took the car from the paint shop and then wet sanded and buffed it out. That is the only way to get the always wet liquid glass look.

^^^^^^^^^^^^
Thank You.

But back to the original question which everyone is avoiding or not really reading. Will my idea of a angle grinder and a buffing pad work as a high speed polisher or am I risking damage to the car.

Jim

No do not use the angle grinder!!! I am not an expert, but I painted my fiero last summer. I went to a harbor freight and bought a buffer for about $40.00 You need between 1000 and 1500 rpm to get the gloss that you are looking for. I started with a wool buffing pad with fine compound then went to a yellow foam pad with micro finishing compound then to a black foam pad with glazing compound. Check out some autobody web sites. They will give you all the info that you need.
Good Luck !!! What color did you go with?

Even coming out of a booth a lot of cars are wetsanded and buffed out.

I agree, don't use the angle grinder. You should be able to pick up a buffer for relatively cheap. Even with a buffer you can burn though edges and corners if you aren't being careful. Wouldn't want to risk anything using an angle grinder. Plus you will cover a lot more surface area using the buffer, it will go faster.

Thank you for the answers. Angle grinder bad, polisher good, buffing with orbital buffer very bad. I'll check out Harbor Freight. $40 - $50 sounds better than $200 -$300.
BTW it's Viper Blue. Check my avatar. It's a little small but it will give you an idea of the color.

Jim

EDIT: Any other thoughts still welcome.

[This message has been edited by jimbolaya (edited 09-13-2007).]

You might want to take a look at the Meguiar's web site, and post your question there.
I have found the site to be quite informative and very helpful.
Using a random orbital sander/polisher like the Porter Cable #7424 with the appropriate compounding/cleaner polish might be the solution for your problem.
Good Luck.

------------------
"Its nice to be important.

Its more important to be nice."

Without a rotary buffer you're not going to get the result you're after, you need to build heat to get the desired finish. If you can wait a month or so (I need to finish a couple of projects first), and promise to return it to me, I can lend you my Porter Cable variable speed rotary buffer and buffing pads, but you'll have to supply your own compounds. Beware, a rotary is a great tool, but it will bite you in the a$$ by burning through the paint if you're not careful. They arent as difficult as folks make them out to be, but you need to be aware.

Wet (color) sanding a finished paint job is the only way to get the best looking finish possible. I can always spot a respray 10 feet away due to the orange peel. I see it quite often at car shows and it always drives me nuts that people feel it show worthy. Most shops will do a quick cut and buff using a course compound to cut the peaks off the clear and then give it a fast buff, but its still quite noticeable over a quality hand sand.

Here's a closeup of a freshly painted car using professional tools and a booth, you can clearly see the orange peel at the bottom center of the picture (the white streak is a water streak as I had already started wet-sanding the roof and the water turns white as you sand clear coat):


Here's the hood of that car after its been sanded and half of it buffed out with the first stage of compound. There has been no polish or wax applied, this is just paint and clear coat:


I will add, if you are knowledgeable with electric, you would be able to put a variable resistor in line with the angle grinder and then have ability to regulate rotary speed. I have, in a pinch, used an angle grinder to buff paint, but it was just to patch up some damaged paint and didn't care if I burned through it or not, which it not surprisingly did on one edge.

[This message has been edited by Rainman (edited 09-14-2007).]

Yeah you need to take that cheap buffer back it will never gloss out a paint job. One cheap alternative I used once that worked ok was I spent $30 at a PPG supplier and got a 6" hook-it disk the one made of stiff foam, then got some foam waffle pads. Waffle pads are the best for polishing clear. I stuck the Hook-It disk on my cordless drill and buffed with that. Harbor freight does sell the larger buffers that is basically a knock off of the $200 version for around $40 so that is also a great option. A color sand to 2000 will help some too.

Rainman, specifically what kind of compound did you use to get that result ?

I sand with 1000 wet to get it flat, then 2000 to 3000 to make it easy to buff. I use 3M "Perfect-it 3000" compound (part # 06062) with a white foam pad, polish with 3M "Perfect-it III Machine Glaze" (part # 05937) on a black foam pad. The compound will buff "1500 or finer" with the foam pad. Best to use a rotary buffer that turns around 2000 RPM for buffing, 1500 for polishing. Biggest thing to remember when using a rotary is to pay close attention to the direction of rotation, & always make sure it's turning *off* of the edges (you'll need to buff with it *slightly* off-level). If it turns *against* the edges it will burn the paint off almost immediately.
Been doing this shtuff (show cars) for nearly 40 years.
HTH,
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

You just shot an unarmed man!
"Well, he should have armed himself."

quote Originally posted by timgray: only for a daily driver or 5 foot paint job. Every high end show car I have seen took the car from the paint shop and then wet sanded and buffed it out. That is the only way to get the always wet liquid glass look.

Maybe, but a properly applied basecoat/clearcoat system is very respectable with minimal orange peel. But yes, if you want a "show car finish" it will need to be cut and buffed. On the other hand, if you want your Fiero to have an original looking finish, orange peel is the look you want...... ;-)

I do detailing on the weekends. Here is the magic solution that never fails for me...What follows is for light colored cars.

1.) Wash Car - I wash/dry my cars using CR Spotless. It is the best for having a spot free finish without towel drying.

2.) ClayBar

3.) Polish - I personaly use menzerna polishes on a lake country pad that is attached to a Porter Cable Dual Action polisher.

4.) Then I hand polish using the p21s paint cleanser.

5.) Lastly, I wax using p21s paste wax.

Below is for dark (Black) cars...

1) Wash...same as above.

2) Clay...same as above.

3) Polish...same as above

4) Follow up with Zaino Z5 Pro and then Zaino Z2.

quote Originally posted by WisconsinGT: I do detailing on the weekends. Here is the magic solution that never fails for me...What follows is for light colored cars. 1.) Wash Car - I wash/dry my cars using CR Spotless. It is the best for having a spot free finish without towel drying. 2.) ClayBar 3.) Polish - I personaly use menzerna polishes on a lake country pad that is attached to a Porter Cable Dual Action polisher. 4.) Then I hand polish using the p21s paint cleanser. 5.) Lastly, I wax using p21s paste wax. Below is for dark (Black) cars... 1) Wash...same as above. 2) Clay...same as above. 3) Polish...same as above 4) Follow up with Zaino Z5 Pro and then Zaino Z2.

Have you ever buffed a car after sanding out the orange peel???
That's what the OP is doing...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

If you can't take the heat, get out of the nuclear reactor.

I wet sanded through 2500. I got the Harbor Freight buffer, cheap vairable speed, obtained the black wrap around foam pad set up from NAPA, used the buffer on the slowest speed possible, a light touch and methodical, did not let the surface heat or dry out, don't want to heat up and damage your paint, burn an edge.


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The Fiero, a testiment to unique AMERICAN Engineering

[This message has been edited by Bruno Mid Engine (edited 09-14-2007).]

Thanks Paul - my whole car looks a little like the right half of Rainmain's hood and i need to do something to make it shiny for sale

You're quite welcome.
The tape is a good idea, especially on the edges next to the panel you're buffing like the fender when buffing the front edge of the door. You can open the door (for example) a little to buff the back edge.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

America - made in China! :-(

There is more than one reason for haze. I use 2000 grit wet and then Meguiars. I tried the commercial stuff from Norton and it was just not as good as Meguiars. the #4 deep clean once, the #9 swirl remover once, then either the #1 red bottle or go straight to the #2 polish.

The reason I say there is more thanone reason for haze is that if you thinned out the paint too much, the paint itself will haze because the pigment is too diluted. I know. I have a black car and I did that on one of the quarter panels. What a PITA.

Take one section and work on it until you are satisfied. Then go on to the rest of the car. That one section should tell you if your paint is ok and it will be easier to work the various stages consecutively.

Good luck on it.

Arn

You'll get a haze or a "milky" look if you paint in high humidity with some paints. What happens is the moisture gets trapped in the paint. If that happens, only way to get rid of it is to re-paint.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

To resist the influence of others, knowledge of one's self is most important.

PM or call me at 403-4175. I'm local and have a nice Makita hi-speed buffer. You would have to supply the compound and possibly the pads but you are welcome to use it.

quote Originally posted by PaulJK: Thanks Paul - my whole car looks a little like the right half of Rainmain's hood and i need to do something to make it shiny for sale

If you are looking to restore the shine on old paint and it doesn't require color sanding to restore, this is the best stuff I have found: http://www.glosshaus.com . Glosshaus was actually started by a guy named Dave in my BMW club. Many products will get very close to the result his product will achieve, but if you're looking for what I have found to be the absolute best yet, this is the man to speak to. He's also a great guy.

If your finish is really far gone, but the clear hasn't begun cracking, you can try wet-sanding with 1500-2000 paper and buff it out with a rotary and compounds. the hood on my Formula looks absolutely terrible due moisture and sun damage during storage, but the clear is still there, if I've got time tonight, I'll sand it and buff it out to show how it can be restored.

[This message has been edited by Rainman (edited 09-15-2007).]

quote Originally posted by typhoon: What on earth did you paint your car with that it needs sanding? Basecoat clearcoat is so simple and needs nothing after it is painted....... Just wondering.........

You have to wet-sand if you want a show quality paint job without any orange peel. Yes, I know just about every production car you'll see on the street has orange peel, but once you've seen a car without it, you'll become hooked.

It's like liquid glass. A perfect mirror without distortion. One can see a wet-sanded car from far away even when the car is dirty. It's hard to describe.

I usually sand with 1200 after its painted. You can buy a semi pro 9" buffer for under $75 at Harbor Freight. Ive got one I got from the paint store for $65 and Ive been using it for over 5 years. Id recommend a foam waffle pad for compounding, and a black foam pad for polishing. I use 3M super duty compound first, then after all the sanding marks are polished, I go to Perfect II compound to get out the swirls left by the super duty. Then switch to polishing pad and use a machine glaze or regular liquid polish/ wax to finalize the shine. I generally cut the first with a wool pad, but if your not experienced you can destroy your paint with one. The foam is much more forgiving. Good luck.

Sorry didnt get back sooner, I been busy sanding down all the door jams and removing chrome on my 66 Dodge all day fri and sat.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 09-15-2007).]

AlanD just lent me a Makita high speed buffer. I accomplished more in 1 hour what it took me two weeks to do with a random orbital buffer. A big fat + for AlanD. Thank you very much. It never fails to amaze me the generosity of the members on this forum. BTW: another big fat + for Formulamoe who helped me get my car painted in the first place.

Jim

I work around Painters a lot where I work from. I am a car detailer at Burien Toyota Scion here in washington and I can honeslty say that we do quality work with buffing our cars. We have the $300 variable rotary speed buffers with speed settings from 500-5000 rpms. With many different pads for different surfaces. We also use many different compunds such as Vibra Cut and the like. What we do before we get our cars ready when they come from the paint shop is completeley wash the car and prep the exterior for buffing. Then we buff the cars till they have the quality shine. Then wax. A person can get a full detail for there car at almost any car dealership that has a detail shop. I dont know what other detail shops are like but I know mine.

Since people may refrence this thread later, I also wanted to throw in that you need to make sure you don't buff when the clear is still to wet. I wasted many hours on this very issue when I worked as a painters helper years ago, just to have the car back in a week and everything buff out in minutes.

I usually block and buff 24 hours after I paint. If I wait longer than that the paint gets harder and harder to buff. The data sheet for the paint you are using will tell you how soon you can buff. For the Sherwin williams line I use it is usually 8 to 24 hours depending on the clear.

Paint has come a long way over the years, epecially from the old laquers. On my BMW I started sanding and buffing after letting the paint cure overnight, but it is a good point to check the manufacturer suggestions, as there are still many different paints, especially with people still painting old vehicle restorations with laquers to get the original look. Single-stage paints are also very nice and easier to touch up later if damaged due to accident/neglect.

I didn't get a chance to touch the Fiero yesterday, I was up to my elbows in my Volvo engine transplant. There is lots of good info regarding buffing online.

I use a wool pad with 3M products for the initial buffing and then a waffle with water based products for the rest.

Always buff ' off ' of an edge, never buff 'on or toward' it. Taping edges of adjoining panel is a good idea. I buff the next day myself too. Its just so much easier. A lot of times, depending on the weather, you may or may not have to go over it lightly again in a week or so. That second buffing dont take more than 30 mins for the whole car.