Quick question.. are the sleeves not already in my control arms? These busings seem pretty hard to press into!




Matt

Yes the sleeves are already there.
They're going to be tight. I've not done them so don't know if there is any lube you can put on them or not.

WD40 might work and evaporates after a while.

did you read this post.

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/082791.html
Did you do the freezer thing.?

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 05-18-2007).]

yes they are a tight fit. you will need a c clamp or vise to seat them.
you can either lube the outers with the teflon grease as per the instructions to make it easier.

[This message has been edited by tjm4fun (edited 05-20-2007).]

The best advice is to stick those bushings in the freezer overnight and put them in in the morning. It worked beautifully for me. If you still need a little more force, they should slip in with light pressure from a C-clamp.

edit to add: Push them in without the center sleeve, it should go in afterwards with no problems.

[This message has been edited by TG oreiF 8891 (edited 05-18-2007).]

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: or someon mentiond using gorilla glue on the outer parts to bond it to the sleeve, while still wet it would act as a lubricant.

WARNING !

DO NOT GLUE THE BUSHINGS IN!!!!!
This defeats the design on how the bushings are suppose to work.
The person who posted about using gorilla glue on them is WRONG.

See this thread:
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/082791.html


Stick the bushings in your freezer for a day.
Lube the sleeve and bushing very well with teflon grease then use a clamp or vise to press them in.


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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.
ZZ4 Powered !!

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-19-2007).]

done and done

Going to get some grease nipples today!

quote Originally posted by Oreif: WARNING ! DO NOT GLUE THE BUSHINGS IN!!!!! This defeats the design on how the bushings are suppose to work. The person who posted about using gorilla glue on them is WRONG. See this thread: https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/082791.html Stick the bushings in your freezer for a day. Lube the sleeve and bushing very well with teflon grease then use a clamp or vise to press them in.

Nice catch! DO NOT USE GLUE ON POLY BUSHINGS. They are suppose to move.

Because the sleeve does not rotate in the control arm, and the inner tube does not rotate after it has been bolted to the car, you actually need the bushing to rotate to give you a full range of motion.

tjme4fun can you edit your post to keep the "bad advise" from spreading?

Just try to make sure the info you are posting is accurate. If you aren't sure, double check. You don't want to be like some of the other members that have helped to actually make problems worse.

Just so there is no confusion- tjme4fun this is not directed at you, your advice has always been accurate and well timed. good luck

[This message has been edited by Fieroseverywhere (edited 05-20-2007).]

I edited the post.
we could always start a thread on that point. mine are all lubed, but in reality, they donot slide in the sleeve. the fiction points are around the inner sleeve, which is stationary and pinched to the frame, and the inner (notice they are grooved to retain more grease) inner bore of the poly bushing.
I don;t want to burst anyones bubble, but they donot rotate AT ALL on the sleeve side, if they are installed properly. if they do, then there is no need to install any grease fittings as the hole to the center section will not be there after time.
proper installation is to install the bushing into the sleeve with the center sleeve out, then press in the inner sleeve after loading the bore with grease.
Motion on the outter sleeve side will destroy the bushing, as you cannot get a true smooth bearing surface, so I don;t see that as an issue.

you should also go request the person remove the original post, and also the grease fitting post, as that fitting will also lock the bushing till it wears a groove around it, as the threads on a typical zerk fitting are about .25" deep and a typical shell is only about .040 thick, so the bushing is then essentially pinned to the shell by the grease fitting.

To settle it. I have sent an email to the folks at Pro-thane asking about this issue, and if they bond the bushing to the shell on the ones they do sell with outter sleeves.

87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 05-20-2007).]

tjm4fun and Dennis make a very good point...

I was thinking all day about this and also came to the conclusion that they are not designed to move independently of the outer sleeve.

You see, if properly lubed, there will never be enough forces to overcome the friction of the poly against sleeve because the inner pin is normally lubed properly and will be the first to rotate. If the center pin rotates inside the bushing first.. there will never be enough force to move the bushing itself. And if in any case it were to move, it would only be for a split second during a pothole hit or related road problems.

I noticed last night that after lubing the outter section of the busing before pushing it into the sleeve there was barely enough to lube the inside.

Realistically you would only lube the center section, with little lube on the outer surface area of the busing to aid in pressing. I am sure using any glue to the sleeve will only affect the time of their removal, and poly lasts a long time!

In conclusion, if you think of it logically, the best situation is that the center metal busing rotates about the bolt which would only have minimal friction against the inner hole of the bushing against the poly and the bolt itself and if properly lubed would have no noise. If a firmly pressed poly busing is rubbing against the metal sleeve of the control arm, it will squeak because it is so tightly pressed that any forces great enough to move the whole poly bushing past the point where the center metal bushing is rotating would create energy in the form of noise. Not to mention there is a greater amount of surface area around the outter dia of the poly opposed to the minimal with the metal sleeve and hole.

I elect to no longer plan for a grease fitting and to keep it pressed as it is with plenty of lube in the center only.


Thats my two cents..

Matthew

edited for spelling

[This message has been edited by Matthew_Fiero (edited 05-20-2007).]

well, let's see what prothane has to say on it.

I bought an extra 4 pack of lube with mine, and was very liberal with it on both the inner and outer poly surfaces. that was in december of 05, now driven daily thru 2 ne winters, salt, sand and ice snow etc. no squeeks. front and rear on an 88. (so no cradle bushings).

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: I edited the post. we could always start a thread on that point. mine are all lubed, but in reality, they donot slide in the sleeve.

They are designed to move. That is why the manufacturer instructs you to lube the inside AND outer sleeve. The bushing is being used as a "free-floating bushing" which reduces friction and allows the control arm to move accurately up and down without any excess flex or loading of the suspension. Most performance suspensions also use the "free-floating bushing" method especially when using poly or other stiff materials as a bushing.

Taken from the "Energy Suspension's" website:
"The original manufacturers normally use rubber in bushings to cushion the metal-on-metal suspension points. This setup makes for a nice, soft ride that appeals to commuters, but it’s not usually up to the rigors of performance driving. Compounding the problem is that over time, road contaminants reduce these rubber bushings to dust. And if road salt and oil don’t get these tiny components, the constant compression of the vehicle weight and torque eventually pancake them until they become functionless. The cure is some nonbinding, free-floating bushings that goes a long way in maintaining proper suspension geometry. The key to Energy Suspension’s product longevity and durability is its special formulation of polyurethane-Hyper-Flex-that is uniquely immune to the weaknesses of rubber."

And from Motor Magazine:
Energy Suspension's Tanya Oxford notes that because polyurethane does not bond to metal, it remains free-floating and allows a greater range of motion. In control arm applications, this property eliminates the need to weight the wheels before the final fastener torque is applied.

And Finally:
From http://www.valvoline.com/ca...asp?pg=res20020701pb
Another advantage of polyurethane bushings is that they're virtually impervious to oil and other road contaminants. These units will not crush down or wear out like rubber bushings, and are designed to be free-floating, rotating 360 degrees, so the suspension can articulate fully without binding. In contrast, rubber bushings are often bonded to a metal shell and sleeve, and function with a twisting action that, when pushed to its limit, binds up instead of rotating freely like urethane units. Rubber bushings can even induce wheel hop from the spring-like action of the rubber twisting back and forth.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: However, if poly bushings are supposed to have movement between their OD and the ID of the steel sleeve, they probably will wear quickly. . Plastic turning and rubbing on steel = ??????

It is not "plastic turning and rubbing on steel". It rides on a thin layer of teflon grease. (if properly lubed when assembled.) Sort of how a camshaft runs on a thin layer of oil over the cam bearings. Granted if not lubed properly there will be wear and noise.


I know when I installed all my poly bushings that the outer sleeve did move independently of the outer sleeves as I moved the conrol arm up and down by hand after I torqued the bolts and prior to installing the springs. As noted on Motor Magazine's website above there was no pre-loading required like you would be required to do if the bushing was attached to the outer sleeve like the rubber bushings.
I installed my bushings back in 2001 and have not had any squeeks or creaking 6 years later.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-20-2007).]

Like I said, wait til I hear back. you are reading way too much into those quotes.
Free floating bushing. means no attachement, but that does not mean the bearing is not mounted. the center sleeve is the free floating part, it is not attached to any part of the bushing, and is free to move rotationaly and to some extent, compressionally into the poly part.
That is the free floating part, not the outer shell. you lube that part to allow for inserting it into the shell,where most all of the lube is forced out. there are no retaining grooves like the center bore has. having the outer part rotate adds nothing to the function acheived by unlocking the center sleeve.

Oreif is correct, and for the right reasons. The poly suspension bushings are designed to be free floating (i.e. free to rotate) with respect to either the center sleeve and/or the outer shell. That's exactly what the manufacturer says. Absent significant evidence to the contrary, you have to accept that the manufacturer knows what it's talking about with respect to the engineering and installation of its own products ... although that certainly doesn't prevent you from installing them any way you choose.

For those of you who prefer anecdotal reports, here's mine. A year ago this month I replaced the OEM rubber bushings in my Formula's rear suspension with poly. Note that this is an '88 rear suspension, and my experience should, but may not, apply to earlier years. I lubed the bushings liberally with the proper grease, inside and out, as instructed by the manufacturer, before installing them. Results: 1) After the installation was complete (including torquing all bolts to spec) I observed that while some of the bushings were indeed stationary with respect to the outer shell (i.e. motion only between the central sleeve and the bushing), other bushings were rotating with respect to the shells (i.e. center sleeve stationary). 2) The bushings did not squeak immediately after installation. 3) A year later, they still do not squeak.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 05-21-2007).]

If they were meant to move in the sleeve, they wouldn't have to be pressed in.

You don't see us having to press in the center metal bushing do you?

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: Like I said, wait til I hear back. you are reading way too much into those quotes. you lube that part to allow for inserting it into the shell,where most all of the lube is forced out.

Reading too much into the quotes???
How else do you read "designed to be free-floating, rotating 360 degrees, so the suspension can articulate fully without binding." ???
or "because polyurethane does not bond to metal, it remains free-floating and allows a greater range of motion."????

Free-floating = The bushing is not attached to the inner or outer sleeve.
rotating 360 degrees = The bushing is allowed to rotate between the sleeves. This prevents the bushing from wearing on one side as it is allowed to rotate between the sleeves.
polyurethane does not bond to metal = Does not stick to the inner OR outer sleeve.
it remains free-floating = Not attached to the inner or outer sleeve.


The lube isn't "forced out" the excess lube is squeezed out but there is still a thin layer of teflon grease between the bushing and the outer sleeve.
If you installed a poly bushing then wiped/washed all the excess off and pushed the bushing back out you will see that the bushing and the sleeve still have a very thin coating of grease on them. Neither is "dry".

Anyhow, The free-floating bushing design is an aerospace technology developed for aircraft way back in the day and is used today on nearly every aircraft and spacecraft.
(Since I work in the aerospace field, I can verify this, If you want, talk with anyone who has worked or built aircraft.)
It is designed to allow free movement up and down without any flexing, binding. or shifting in the alignment/geometry.
The reason they are a tight fit is because you don't want any play in the alignmet/geometry at the pivot point and there is a lot of force/pressure on them when driving.

[This message has been edited by Oreif (edited 05-21-2007).]

Accepting that the information presented here by Orief and others is correct I would like to move ahead and compare the the toughness of the OEM rubber vs. poly bushings for high performance applications. If you examine the Fiero rear suspension the main support for the wheels is the two control arm bushings, the lower balljoint (that has a shaft about the size of your pinky finger), the strut ( which provides little twist support) and a tie rod. When you accelerate a lot of pressure is applied to these items, especially the control arm bushings, the only non-steel element. Now if we dramatically increase the engine power a like increase in stress will be placed on the control arm bushings. It is obvious that the durometer number of the poly bushing is higher than the rubber bushing but does the poly really provide that much more support? A guy on this forum who runs a modified engine reports quite a bit of toe-in upon acceleration. I am thinking that bushings made from Delrin may be the better choice for these high horsepower swap applications.

------------------
87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

I'm going to have to say that the bushing is not supposed to rotate in the outer sleeve.
[The newer] Bushings have grease grooves in the center. The metal sleeve gets locked in position when bolted between the flanges and the sleeve also expands the bushing slightly to lock it against the outer sleeve. The bushing & arm rotates on the sleeve. The rubber bushings just twist in place(why you must tighten at ride level).



I installed zerk fittings to be able to grease them(and added an inner center groove)
With the air suspension, it is easy to watch it work, and is why I feel I need them greasable

[This message has been edited by Joe Torma (edited 05-22-2007).]

I can't resist adding a comment on the bushing issue.
To slide an object on another requires a force acting on it. This applies to a cardboard box you are pushing on the floor, or a bushing you are turning in a sleeve or a bushing you are turning on a pin.
The push force required = the contact pressure, P between the two surfaces (weight in the box case) x the coefficient of friction U.
F = P x U
Note that the contact surface area does not enter into the equation, although this is contrary to what you might expect.
Each two contacting surfaces that you try to slide relative to each other has a characteristic coefficient of friction for both the static and dynamic conditions. For example wood on polished concrete, rubber on asphalt, and plastic on steel....you get the idea. The static coefficient is also larger than the dynamic. This is why when you push the freezer on the floor it is easier to keep it moving once it IS moving than it is to get it moving in the first place.
For the bushing, we can safely assume the following:
-the surfaces of the bushing and the pin are equally smooth and greased
-the bushing is not glued or pinned
-the bushing is pressed into the sleeve and the pin is pressed in to the bushing to provide similar contact force on both surfaces of the sleeve and the pin
The result of these conditions would be the same sliding FORCE being required to slide the bushing in the sleeve or on the pin. For this sliding, imagine the sleeve/bushing and the pin/bushing contact surfaces to be separate and flat like the box on the floor.
With all this in mind, imagine the TORQUE required to turn the bushing in the sleeve vrs the torque to turn the bushing on the pin. Due to the sleeve/bushing interface having a larger moment arm than the bushing/pin interface, the torque to turn the bushing in the sleeve is higher than the bushing on the pin. Therefore one would expect the bushing/pin interface to slide first in every case.
If the sleeve is not as polished as the pin, the coefficient of friction for the bushing/sleeve is higher, thereby increasing the tendency of the bushing to turn on the polished pin.
All this being said, I have no explanation for those who report that their bushings turn in their sleeves.
Also, who cares? If the bushing is free to turn on at least one of the surfaces it is doing its job. Just don't have it bonded, pinned with a grease nipple or otherwise bound up on both surfaces.
Oh, all this talk of sleeves reminds me af a question from the cold war age: Where do the Russians keep their armies?
Answer: In their sleevies of course!!!

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Daviero - 88 N* GT

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: It is obvious that the durometer number of the poly bushing is higher than the rubber bushing but does the poly really provide that much more support? A guy on this forum who runs a modified engine reports quite a bit of toe-in upon acceleration. I am thinking that bushings made from Delrin may be the better choice for these high horsepower swap applications.

Rubber twists and flex's which is why they need to be torqued with weight on the suspension. If you torque the rubber bushings correctly then lift the car and remove the spring and shock, The control arm will always snap back to the postion it was torqued in. Meaning if you move the control arm by hand all the way up and let go the control arm will snap back to the original position. With poly the control arm will stay where you move it to. Hence no spring like action. Delrin or poly will work fine on a street Fiero. You would only be able to tell the difference between poly and delrin if you were on a road course and pushed the suspension hard. Drag racing would not have much of an effect between the two as the arm will stay planted once launched.


If the car you refer to with the toe-in problem is a 1984 thru 1987 then the problem is not the bushings, It's the bump-steer.
As the suspension travels up, Bump steer causes a toe-in condition. So with a powerful engine the rear will squat down more and cause the toe-in. The poly control arm bushings have no effect on bump steer with the exception less twisting than you would normally have with rubber bushings. The poly or delrin bushing would keep the control arm geometery the same, But the arm will still move up and down and bump steer is still in play. Eliminating the bump steer is the only way to avoid the toe-in/toe-out during suspension travel.