anything new on the 4.9 caddy swaps ? i've got a 87 that needs a new engine, and i figured that i might as well replace it with a V-8 since it would need an engine anyhow. everything i've read about this swap sounds as if it would be not that much more trouble to put in a 4.9 and still use my automatic trans. if i can get the whole car, 91-94 probably from police impound auction, it would be cheaper than rebuilding the V-6.

I think you would be much happier using the Caddy's automatic with the 4.9. 1600 RPM @60MPH sure is nice!

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'85GT Indy clone 4.9 4T60E
'78 Toyota longbed, parts runner
'89 Bonneville daily driver
'87 30' Kit Classic TT, living in it.

the wiring is what bothers me i haven't seen any thing that fully explains it.

quote Originally posted by 87GT_97114: I think you would be much happier using the Caddy's automatic with the 4.9. 1600 RPM @60MPH sure is nice!

I have the 4.9 with the Caddy transmission (4T60E) in my 88 coupe. It's only turning over 1900 rpm @ 70 mph. An overdrive is a very nice thing. And the trans is geared to take the best advantage of the Caddy's torque curve.

quote Originally posted by DAVE F: the wiring is what bothers me i haven't seen any thing that fully explains it.

You can buy the plug n play harness from Injection Technologies if wiring your own is too much. They are pricey ($700) but it makes wiring the swap a 15 minute job. Plus the harness includes the piece to override the VATS and correct the speedometer. I used it, and it was worth every penny in my book. If you get a 94 drivetrain, you will need the 50 mhz, not the 35 mhz VATS correction. The transmission wiring is also slightly different and you have to repin the trans plug (I found out the hard way LOL).

http://injectiontechnology.com/

You can, of course, wire it yourself. Many have. But IMHO, somebody else has already engineered the fix, why not take advantage of it?

In any event, the 4.9 is a blast to drive, it's very torquey on the bottom end, and with the right exhaust, it's got a great sound to it. And the drivetrains are abundant in most junkyards.

Have fun....feel free to drop me a PM if you need any more info.

quote Originally posted by Frizlefrak: You can, of course, wire it yourself. Many have. But IMHO, somebody else has already engineered the fix, why not take advantage of it?

...because I much prefer to route my wires the way I want and have hidden as much as possible... - thanks for the link though I was looking for it for future info.

DAVE F >> I made a post of here some time back that explains the changes needed to the harness. You should not need any more info than the wiring diagrams. Sorry I can't find the post right now - but it was one started by someone else on documenting the a step by step build of the harness (maybe someone else has the link handy).

We have a club member that wanted to do the swap but was terrified of the wiring, I gave him my notes (as posted in the thread) and told him how to go about the wiring. He was all done in about a week and the car runs just fine. Basically all he had was the diagrams from Rockcrawls site and my changes list (plus I showed him how to properly slice wires together).

The Injection Technologies harness is made from all new wire/pins/plugs - not a spliced together one and it is plug an go (it does have issues with a standard tranny is seem to recall, but this is an easy fix).

You can email or PM me if you need help - sometimes I miss seeing some threads.

quote Originally posted by DAVE F: the wiring is what bothers me i haven't seen any thing that fully explains it.

An alternative would be to use a 1227730 ECM (from a 90-92 Camaro tuned port 305) and a Painless wiring harness. Pretty much plug and play.

quote Originally posted by v8fiero400: An alternative would be to use a 1227730 ECM (from a 90-92 Camaro tuned port 305) and a Painless wiring harness. Pretty much plug and play.

less work if you use the above meantioned http://injectiontechnology.com/ 4.9 to Fiero harness - engine is all stock part, do not have to worry about changing the throttle body.

Painless TPI wiring harness- $390
Injection Technologies harness- $750
When I called Injection Technologies a while back about the 4.9 harness, the guy told me to **** off because he only sold harnesses to Ed Parks and not to any individuals. He may have changed his mind now, but hell will freeze over before I buy anything from him.

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: less work if you use the above meantioned http://injectiontechnology.com/ 4.9 to Fiero harness - engine is all stock part, do not have to worry about changing the throttle body.

You don't have to change the throttle body.... I didn't

Painless Wiring harness is $325.00 at Summit... and other brand harnesses are even cheaper.

quote Originally posted by v8fiero400: You don't have to change the throttle body.... I didn't Painless Wiring harness is $325.00 at Summit... and other brand harnesses are even cheaper.

...hmmm, now you have my attention. So the painless harness will connect straight up to the 4.9 without changing any hardware on the motor? I know that you are running the Allante intake which basically means the Painless harness works with a modified 4.9, but I am talking about a stock throttle body setup. I am under the impression that the 7730 uses an IAC, please educate me.

Cooter >> I heard that Ed Park's no longer sells the harness and you have to buy the harness directly from them now - either way, you can buy a harness.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 05-07-2007).]

Who else besides injection tech. and painless sells the 4.9 to fiero harness

I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone else does. There was a member on here selling them, but he was getting them from Injection Technologies IIRC.

couldn't you use the caddy harness and ecm? then just have to mess with getting the gauges to work correctly? or is that the harness everyone is talking about?

Know a couple of guys that have done the 4.9L Cadillac swaps and they seem to praise how fast these Fieros are in the 1/8 mile. However as soon as you reach 4500 RPM, in stock trim, you're already past the power peak.
If you want bottom end heavy torque performance, a great highway cruiser, incredibly good gas mileage and a reasonably priced and lightweight V8 transplant , this engine is a good choice. However, If you want to build the 4.9L into a high performance engine, you could probably do it for a lot less with another engine platform. The key is trying to find a sound low miles 4.9L w the matching 4T65e trans at a good price. I beleive that these engines may be getting a bit scarce.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds -Best
Engine Controls, ECM goodies, Chip
re-programming & odd electronics stuff

[This message has been edited by Dennis LaGrua (edited 05-13-2007).]

Getting the gauges to work is not that difficult. You need about $1 worth of parts to get the speedo to work and make one small mod to the tach and you are done.

The Cadillac came with the 4T60e not the 4T65e by the way.

quote Originally posted by DAVE F: Who else besides injection tech. and painless sells the 4.9 to fiero harness

...you can try PBJ...I think at one time he was making harnesses (but I think you have to send him your Fiero and 4.9 harness). Other than that, it's really not hard to do yourself - it just looks bad at the start, but once you get into going it's not that bad.

quote Originally posted by v8fiero400: You don't have to change the throttle body.... I didn't Painless Wiring harness is $325.00 at Summit... and other brand harnesses are even cheaper.

Still waiting to hear back on how one can use a Painless harness and the 7730 ECM with a stock 4.9 throttle body - or how to modify the stock unit to use an IAC.

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: ...hmmm, now you have my attention. So the painless harness will connect straight up to the 4.9 without changing any hardware on the motor? I know that you are running the Allante intake which basically means the Painless harness works with a modified 4.9, but I am talking about a stock throttle body setup. I am under the impression that the 7730 uses an IAC, please educate me. Cooter >> I heard that Ed Park's no longer sells the harness and you have to buy the harness directly from them now - either way, you can buy a harness.

I used a Chevy TBI unit (with the two injectors removed) on the stock 4.9 intake. The Chevy TBI unit already has an IAC valve built in.

The 7730 ECM worked just fine on the stock 4.9 and stock 4.9 intake.

Later.....when I converted to an Allante intake, I used a remote "in line" IAC valve. Not that hard to fabricate... Just get an IAC housing from a GM vehicle... Drill and tap two holes for brass fittings so that a hose can be plumbed in line.

The Painless harness and the 7730 ECM coupled with the Chevy TBI unit is a great idea. Saves a bunch of money and wouldn't be hard to do at all. It would also eliminate the VATS issue too. Perfect solution for a manual transmission or TH125....Unfortunately, it won't work for those of us using the 4T60E, as it needs the Caddy PCM to shift the transmission. And I can't sing the praises of the 4T60E enough...it's a great transmission.

The guy at Injection Technology was very nice and helpful when I bought my harness from him. I bought it last summer, so as of then he was still selling them to the public and not just to Ed.

Honestly, I bought the harness because I got anxious to get the car on the road. The motor and trans were fabbed up to the cradle, and everything was ready to go back in....and I was staring at this spaghetti bowl of wires. Given a week or so to figure it all out, I'm sure I could have wired it....but that's a lot of weekends for us poor working stiffs Yep...my laziness got the better of me, and I sprang for the harness. Wiring the car was a 15 minute job.

If I decide to do another identical swap, it wouldn't be terribly difficult to remove and reverse engineer my harness. On the other hand, Mickey you have a point....if you wire your own, you can make it look as clean as you like. The IT harness doesn't have much to spare....it basically will only fit one way.

......and the car sure is fun to drive.

[ before you put the enmgine in the fiero, make sure you buya low mileage 4.9L, AND get the $200 delta drop in cam regrind, it really wakes up this motor..adds about 30 Hp and it widens the powerband greatly...you'll make power all the way to 5500 rpm solidly..

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: [ before you put the enmgine in the fiero, make sure you buya low mileage 4.9L, AND get the $200 delta drop in cam regrind, it really wakes up this motor..adds about 30 Hp and it widens the powerband greatly...you'll make power all the way to 5500 rpm solidly..

I was going to do try of these swaps but never could find a low mileage 4.9L . Everything that turned up was 80-100K plus!!! ALso if I am not mistaken you can use only the Deville engine as it had the design of the exhaust manifolds that fit best.
That's an interesting comment on cam choice but you also changed lifters, rockers and valve springs right? How much mileage did the engine lose because of the cam change and how did the power band react with the low highway cruise type gearing of the 4T60e? Always found this swap fascinating as you've got the cubes of the V8, the weight of a V6 and it shouldn't break the budget. The biggest job is probably making the custom mounts.

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87GT 3.4 Turbo- 0-60 5.2 seconds
2006 3800SC Series III swap in progress
Engine Controls, PCM goodies,
re-programming & odd electronics stuff
" I'M ON THE LOOSE WITHOUT THE JUICE "

quote Originally posted by aaronrus: [ before you put the enmgine in the fiero, make sure you buya low mileage 4.9L, AND get the $200 delta drop in cam regrind, it really wakes up this motor..adds about 30 Hp and it widens the powerband greatly...you'll make power all the way to 5500 rpm solidly..

...maybe, but not without changing the programming, I added this cam last winter, did not notice any improvement. Granted this is not dyno tested so I can't say for sure but I can tell you it still runs out of power way before 5500 rpm.

Dennis LaGrua >> on the drop in cam, you should not have to change anything else, however, it has been noted that several people have had to use longer push rods (7:100) due to the valve train being noisier (I was one). So you are probably better off changing these at the same time anyways. Gas milage suffered for me. I lost approx 100km per tank as compared with before, but I am sure that it is only a programming issue to deal with the increase in air flow as the program would not be optimized for more air. If only I can get a hold of Rockcrawl.

You can also use any 4.9 engine, I personally use a Deville 4.9 with 2 'front' Seville manifolds for my exhaust. I wanted to eliminate the stupid cross over pipe since I am running an Izusu (plus is makes the engine bay less 'cluttered' on the top - all my exhaust is underneath). But I know one person that is using both stock Seville manifolds - just with the rear one (now front in the Fiero) it is a bit too tight to the firewall for my tastes.

Painless harness: ok, as I originally stated, it can't be used on a stock setup without changing the throttle body.

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 05-15-2007).]

I just recentally went to the bone yard to look for some exhaust manifolds. I ended up getting a set off of an 86 Deville. They bolt up the same and are stainless unlike the 93 deville that came with the motor (willing to sell these also). And if you want to make headers the flange can easily be cut down. Much easier then the 93's. Just wanted to give you guys a heads up.

I have question though. I had a friend of mine pull an 88 cradle for me. He is only charging me 50 bucks for it including all suspension and brake parts (- calipers). Is it any easier to mount it to an 88 cradle then the 85-87? I've done a search but am having a hard time finding info. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I will have a brand new set of Darryl Morse cradle mounts (never mounted) and 85-87 rear control arms with poly for sale soon if anyone is interested (3 months old).

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: I have question though. I had a friend of mine pull an 88 cradle for me. He is only charging me 50 bucks for it including all suspension and brake parts (- calipers). Is it any easier to mount it to an 88 cradle then the 85-87? I've done a search but am having a hard time finding info. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Sorry, I can't say one way or another as I have not done a 88 (yet). Depending on how you mount it (I use Bubba Joe's method) I don't really see there being any real issues with a 88 cradle - but I could be wrong.

quote Originally posted by Mickey_Moose: Sorry, I can't say one way or another as I have not done a 88 (yet). Depending on how you mount it (I use Bubba Joe's method) I don't really see there being any real issues with a 88 cradle - but I could be wrong.

Thanks for looking though. I spent 5 hours reading through the archives to find some info and havent been able to find anything yet. Everyone (that I found) that shows pics or gives any info on the mounts has an 85-87 cradle. The 88 guys seemed to skip over that part. I will just weld up some brackets and use some poly tranny mounts. Shouldn't be much of a problem.

I've decided on the Isuzu tranny bacause the 88 cradle already had one mounted to it. Just makes sense to use it.

The brakes will be another issue. I was planing on upgrading to 11.25 brakes but won't be able to do that with the 88 rear suspension. I have found some info but not much. I'm guessing 11.25 front with 10.43 (rock auto professional) for the rear. Caddy calipers in the front, 88 fiero in the rear. May or may not have to change the master to S10. If anyone has any info or ideas please let me know.

quote Originally posted by Fieroseverywhere: The 88 guys seemed to skip over that part. I will just weld up some brackets and use some poly tranny mounts. Shouldn't be much of a problem.

I have one mounted on an '88 cradle just don't have any pictures - camera ot stolen.

You should decide on how you will do the exhaust before deciding on how to mount the engine. The way my engine is mounted I could not do a Fiero type system with a custom Y pipe and the cat ahead of the engine. I had to do an Ed Parks type with a vertical cat off the back.

quote Originally posted by sanderson: I have one mounted on an '88 cradle just don't have any pictures - camera ot stolen. You should decide on how you will do the exhaust before deciding on how to mount the engine. The way my engine is mounted I could not do a Fiero type system with a custom Y pipe and the cat ahead of the engine. I had to do an Ed Parks type with a vertical cat off the back.

Actually I realized over the weekend that the one on Rockcrawls site is mounted on an 88 cradle so I have plenty of pics now. The pics he shows were from his "shaker" formula. It will be no problem to make those mounts. We have lots of metal lying around and welders galore. We are still making a decision on the exhaust. Headers? True dual? Stock type? Just cant decide yet. there are benifits and drawbacks to all. thanks for the info though.