As requested by several, I will be documenting the procedures of installing a 4T60 (non-electric controlled) Transmission with a Small Block Chevy. To start with the FACTS, This is a 4 speed automatic that just came out of an 86 Caddillac Coupe Deville. This car had a 4.1L V-8. I'm using a V-8 Archie Automatic Kit that was designed for the TH125C 3 speed automatic, and will be installing it in an 84 fiero. The engine block I am using is a 283 from a 1962 Chevy Impala.

Two very informative web pages are these. I'm not out to prove them wrong, but I will add the V-8 details.
http://fp.enter.net/~rockcrawl/4T60a.html
http://spacecoastfieros.com.../440-4T60/index.html

Here is a pic of the cleaned up and painted transmission.


V-8 PREPARATION
I started with a trial fit and immediatly found a clearance problem on the engine block. This is a picture taken at the bell housing.


No big deal, just grind the metal off the block, and make it flush with the bell housing adapter shown here.


FLYWHEEL / FLEXPLATE AND TORQUE CONVERTER
The 4T60's flywheel has a different bolt pattern and will not bolt on Archie's crank adapter. But the 125's flywheel will not interchange with the 4T60's torque converter. That converter interferes with the 3 embossed sections on the TH125C flywheel,and will not allow it to bolt up. Below; the embossed sections are circled and the torque converter bolt holes are arrowed. Next to it is the 4T60's flywheel.


The TH125C's converter and flywheel will work as far as I know. But does anyone know from experience if you are supposed to use the 125's flywheel and torque converter?

[This message has been edited by RyanNierman (edited 09-28-2008).]

Excellent, These are the things I was wondering about. I will be watching, keep the info coming.
Thanks
Gary

What does archie suggest on this subject? I would imagine that you would not use anything from the fiero transmission.

Archie sells kits to install the v-8 to fiero transmissions, what you do with it after that, you are on your own. I'm sure he may have some input, but this is not part of his business.
Bump
Gary

quote I'm using a V-8 Archie Automatic Kit that was designed for the TH125C 3 speed automatic.

I would imagine archie could offer some support here, is what I ment.

I will say it again, Archie sells conversion kits. What tranny you use is up to you.
More info on the 4T60 is what I'm interested in. This post will turn into good info.
Good Day
Gary

Hey ryan what you might need to do is take you fiero flywheel and the 4t60's TQ converter to a tranny shop or a speed shop that can fab. They might be able to relocate your mounting tabs on the TQ converter to fit the fiero's flywheel pattern. Or they might be able to redrill your fiero flywheel to bolt up to the bigger pattern of the 4t60's tq converter. Archies auto kit is designed to be used with the fiero's th 125 tranny and flywheel. You could also have a special crankshaft adapter made up that will use the 4t60's pattern. Just some options you could do. Keep us posted.

------------------
REMEMBER KIDS 4.9's ARE NOT SBC's

I know Darth Fiero has done 4T60 swaps but not sure if he used the exact parts you are using. His website is:
http://www.gmtuners.com/

I have a question though. The 4T60 flexplate is externally balanced (the weight at the top left). Is your SBC externally balanced? What year did that TH125c flexplate come from? Only the '88 Fiero has a neutrally balanced flexplate.

Hmmm, I would check if the 4T60 TCC works with the TH125c torque converter. From what I read last night, GM made an early TCC solenoid pre-1987, and an improved TCC solenoid from 1987 on but have no idea if any GM torque converter will work. Also, what size is the 4T60 torque converter compared to the TH125c? I have read that a larger torque converter is the same as a heavier flywheel, i.e. slower revving.

quote Originally posted by Hudini: The 4T60 flexplate is externally balanced (the weight at the top left). Is your SBC externally balanced? What year did that TH125c flexplate come from? Only the '88 Fiero has a neutrally balanced flexplate.

OK, the 283 SBC is internally balanced. Both flywheels are weighted (not balanced). I balanced the 125 flywheel already by drilling holes on the heavy side. My flywheel is an 84.

quote Hmmm, I would check if the 4T60 TCC works with the TH125c torque converter. From what I read last night, GM made an early TCC solenoid pre-1987, and an improved TCC solenoid from 1987 on but have no idea if any GM torque converter will work. Also, what size is the 4T60 torque converter compared to the TH125c? I have read that a larger torque converter is the same as a heavier flywheel, i.e. slower revving.

The input shafts and bell housings on both of these transmission are identical. I measured the length of the input shafts, and the # of teeth on the geared shafts. The torque converters are the same size and have the same bolt pattern. Below I put arrows on the spots where the 125's flexplate interferes with the raised mid-sections on the 4T60's torque converter. See the above image of the circled embossed sections on the 125's flywheel.

I just wanted to show the differences here to clear up any confusion on what parts to use. Given that the bell housings are the same, and the 125's converter and flywheel will work, this evening I will bolt it up.

FLYWHEEL / FLEXPLATE AND TORQUE CONVERTER CONTINUED
Just for reference purposes, here are the torque converters in a side by side comparison.



This is the 4T60's.


This is the 125's

[This message has been edited by RyanNierman (edited 07-12-2007).]

Looks good. Wish I had one going in my car.

Can I ask what it takes to balance the '84 flexplate?

quote Originally posted by Hudini: Looks good. Wish I had one going in my car. Can I ask what it takes to balance the '84 flexplate?

Well, it doesnt have to be "perfect" because that flexplate is so light compared to most that were on SBC engines. It's not critical on... let's say a 350ci. but overtime with high revs and abuse, it can start to wallow out main bearings from vibration. I chose to balance mine because I have a 283ci. These little engines can stay in high rpms all day long - thats the reason I picked this engine. The 125's flexplate is not very far off balance, I don't have pics of the holes I drilled, but I only had to drill 2 or 3 - 1/2in. holes with a stepper bit. I used a lawn mower blade balancer - my dad has had this for years but you should be able to pick one up at a lawn a garden supplier.

Mmm... This is interesting. I never heard of flywheel problems from people doing a 4T60 upgrade on a 2.8. I guess they are using the stock TH125 flywheel and converter and never get into this hurdle? I have a 4T60 and the converter that came with it is the same as the one you show for the TH125. I bougth this from someone else so maybe he took care of it.

[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 04-11-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Alex4mula: Mmm... This is interesting. I never heard of flywheel problems from people doing a 4T60 upgrade on a 2.8. I guess they are using the stock TH125 flywheel and converter and never get into this hurdle? I have a 4T60 and the converter that came with it is the same as the one you have (4T60) so I guess I'll run into the same problem. So I'm interested to hear what is the solution to this.

Well, I couldn't find anything about the flexplates and TCC on the net, which means others would have the same problem finding info. That's why I'm including it here - glad you mentioned that. I'm planning on bolting it all up soon - so stay tuned!

[This message has been edited by RyanNierman (edited 04-11-2007).]

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[This message has been edited by Alex4mula (edited 04-11-2007).]

your exhaust manifolds are called rams horns exhaust manifolds..i see you used two different dump ones.. one is a center dump the other is an angled which you took a pic of..i hear if you get two center dump ones it is much easier to route your exhaust...just an observation..tim..

quote Originally posted by thismanyfieros: your exhaust manifolds are called rams horns exhaust manifolds..i see you used two different dump ones.. one is a center dump the other is an angled which you took a pic of..i hear if you get two center dump ones it is much easier to route your exhaust...just an observation..tim..

I did some measuring, and actually I beleive this to be false. The studs on the straight dump manifold would almost hit the tail of the transmission. I would find it difficult to make a "not as sharp bend" in the exhaust. But dissagreement aside... Thanks for your input...

TRANSMISSION MOUNTS
On my transmission, I used both front and rear ORIGINAL transmission mounts for an 84 Fiero. You will first want to grind off the little 1/4in nipples that align the mount on the transmission brackets (keeps the mounts from twisting when you tighten them). These are in different spots on the 4T60 brackets.

This is the front mount.


This is the rear mount.


TRANSMISSION BRACKETS
Next be sure you have these brackets on your transmission. (Others may work but I don’t know of them). Again these are off of an 86 Cadillac Deville. The arrowed holes on these brackets will need to be drilled out. This will be the new location of your transmission mount studs.

This is the front transmission mount bracket. (already drilled)


This is the rear transmission mount bracket. Good luck getting this nut on the transmission mount stud. I had to slot the hole in (toward the center of the mount) just a bit, to get enough clearance for a socket to fit over the bolt. You’ll know what I mean when you get there.


CRADLE PREPARATION
Next I will identify where the mounts go on the Fiero cradle. On the front mount I used the 2 holes closest to the passenger/engine side of the car. They fit quite nicely.


On the rear mount, you may have to slot these holes out to get your assembly in the right place, but I didn’t need to.


When you set the engine and transmission down, you will get an idea where it needs to set by looking at Archie’s specs; 16 3/8in from center of front cradle bolt hole to center of harmonic balancer pulley on V8. Also keep in mind the clearance for your balancer pulley and the right side frame rail. Don’t forget about your axels, this is the most critical. – I’ll get to this in a bit.

Here you will need to make a notch in the cradle at the valve body. I was a little excessive on the cutting, but I didn't know how much metal to remove. I'll probably box this in later.

This is taken from the side.


This is taken from the top.


AXELS
I know this is going to open a can of worms with some of you guys, but here it is. I ordered left and right axels for a 1989 Pontiac 6000, 2.8L, 4 speed automatic, with light duty brakes, and no ABS. Yes they work... This is how you should judge your engine placement, if you haven’t already. Advance Auto gave me a huge deal at 39.99 an axel. Reg. price is 69.99


FRAME RAIL
I have a car that Archie likes to call tweaked. My car has evidently been in an wreck or something, because I had to notch the right side frame rail for clearance of the harmonic balancer pulley. My left axel was bottoming out on the 125. Excessive, but well worth it, and now I have more leeway on my placement

[This message has been edited by RyanNierman (edited 07-12-2007).]

I installed the engine in the last couple of days, working out proplems as they come. I would have it driving right now, except the aluminum hearter hoses are leaking alot. I think they froze with water in them over the last 8 or 9 years that the car has not been running. I never had the hoses hooked up during the last install. I may have to alumaweld them. Oh yeah, and I don't have the fieroaddiction 4T60 shift cable brackets because some punk on Ebay outbid me at the last second. THANK YOU "robertmickla"!!!
Anyway, It'll be a while before those are shipped, but I'll post more as it comes.

[This message has been edited by RyanNierman (edited 04-16-2007).]

Guys! Is there anything that needs to be explained in more detail from this point? More pics of something? Keep in mind I will be posting some more pics of the cables, speedo sensor, and I will need help with a manual torque converter lockup circuit or if anyone could recommend an aftermarket controller that won't break the bank, it would be greatly appriciated.

Are you able to drive it yet? How about a nice clear pic of everything installed in the engine bay.
Good Luck
Gary

EXHAUST
Here is a pic of the exhaust routed around the tail. I didn’t have to change this from the 125.


MISC.
The dipstick that was on the Cadillac was almost perfect. I had to grind off a part of the mounting bracket because my torque strut was in the way. Now keep in mind, you may have a different design than I do on the torque strut installation, and may not have to do this. I got this design from BuddyCraig. (**Thanks Buddy**)


Installed in the car, it's close to the trunk, but it's out of the way of everything.


As mentioned above I think my car is a little tweaked due to a wreck or maybe the car was built on a Monday. LOL! This is a picture of the front engine mount placement in order to get the axels in the right place, and get my 16 3/8in measurement that Archie suggests.


You can see here it was necessary (in my case) to notch the right side frame rail. This is looking up from underneath the car at the balancer clearance.


The axles from the Pontiac 6000 have proven themselves, and work great. They sit level and straight. I hope this information gets out to more people. I still see people gathering Beretta, manual Fiero, and APV Van axles to make this transmission work. If anyone has NOT had luck with Pontiac 6000 axels, let us know.



To save time and pay fieroaddiction back for all the time he put into his article I linked above, I bought his shift brackets. They are expensive, yes, but made well. I am currently having an issue with the shift cable and will post more about this when I get it resolved. And BTW, yes she is running again! More soon...

[This message has been edited by RyanNierman (edited 07-12-2007).]

SHIFT LINKAGE
I just got an email from the producers of the fieroaddiction shift cable brackets and they said that I need to get an adjustable shift cable from a later model Fiero. As you can see, I had to rig the cable so I could at least test drive the car. The arrow is pointing where the bracket is supposed to mount. Don’t get the wrong idea, these brackets are quality made and I recommend them. Some cables are different than others.


TRANSMISSION COOLING
Also don’t forget, this transmission produces a lot of heat. I chose to bypass the original transmission cooling lines, which only adds more heat to the engine coolant, and with a V-8, you need the radiator to do all it can. I’m using the original radiator, and have had NO problems cooling this engine. I got the 7in x 10in Derale remote transmission cooler with aux. fan.
http://www.jcwhitney.com/au...&re viewflag=1#review

I don’t have the decklid installed yet so I installed it under the engine vent panel.

quote Originally posted by GKDINC: Are you able to drive it yet? How about a nice clear pic of everything installed in the engine bay. Good Luck Gary

To skip ahead a little, here is a pic of it installed for mr. GKDINK. And BTW, yes it's fast and much stronger than the 125.

[This message has been edited by RyanNierman (edited 07-12-2007).]

I also have a trans cooler right where yours is located and have a trans temp sensor/gauge hooked up. The temp never got over 185*. You have a temp sensor going in your cooler line?

Nice work, good info. I currently run the v-8 with the 125. Three years and 10,000 miles and it's still working. I month ago I came across a good deal on a 4T60 so I picked it up for when the day comes for a change.
This post has been very helpful. ( Not all the pic's pop up but that's ok)
Thanks Gary
I'd still like to know the RPM @ 70MPH

[This message has been edited by GKDINC (edited 05-03-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Hudini: I also have a trans cooler right where yours is located and have a trans temp sensor/gauge hooked up. The temp never got over 185*. You have a temp sensor going in your cooler line?

I bought the inline fan switch for it but no guage. It is supposed to kick on at 180*.

quote Oiiginally posted by GKDINK: This post has been very helpful. I'd still like to know the RPM @ 70MPH

Thanks Gary, I appriciate the support. I will get these numbers to you asap. I'm not sure how accurate my speedo is, but if it is correct, I was running about 2400 rpm at 65 or so. Again not accurate numbers. I will also have to decode the transmission tag to see what my final drive ratio is for you guys, but it was almost all scratched off. Its raining here all weekend and my car is stuck at my girlfriends house in the garage, I can't drive it yet in the rain, no decklid, or rear inner fenders installed. My cooling fan went out just before a burnout, and needless to say, the coolant came to a boil nearly immediately. The radiator cap's pressure relief function did not work, and it burst my water pump hose off spilling all the coolant on the road. I had to limp back to her house, so that repair will be priority.

[This message has been edited by RyanNierman (edited 07-12-2007).]

GEAR SELECTOR CABLE
I had to buy an ’88 adjustable cable to make my transmission shift through all gears. It was plug and play, no modification needed to work with my 84. I think these adjustable cables were only on 86-88 models. Here is a pic of both transmission and selector in park.



PARK NEUTRAL SWITCH
Notice in the picture above, I used the park neutral switch from the Cadillac transmission. It plugs right into the existing Fiero wire harness. Some later model transmissions have a new style switch. I think you can remove it and find the older style switch to swap it out with, with no mods.

I have a good 84 automatic gear selector cable for sale. I will put it in the mall if no body calls it. $22 shipped. PM ME IF INTERESTED.

I’m still searching for some ideas on a torque converter lockup circuit. I want to be able to lock and unlock it manually, but for it to kick out of overdrive when I tap the brakes. I need some good suggestions, or if someone sells what I need, info would be great too. Please P.M. me.

[This message has been edited by RyanNierman (edited 07-12-2007).]

Can anyone help with the torque converter circuit?

This is unverified info I ran across online: (about halfway down) http://www.robertpowersmotorsports.com/CCC.html

Lockup actually happens simply by applying 12 volts to the lockup solenoid via terminal "A" on the lockup plug connector. You can control the lockup with a toggle switch if you delete the computer. Crude, but it will work. The B&M lockup kit uses a speed sensor in line with the speedometer cable, so it can be adjusted as to what speed it locks up at. Downside to it is that if it's set to 50MPH, it locks up at 50 no matter what the throttle position. Very annoying when you are getting on the highway at 1/2 or 2/3 throttle and the motor is revving nicely waaaaaaa- then it bogs down because of the lockup bwwwwuhhhhhh. I currently have GM P/N 14032087, "Switch", that came in '83-'84 Chevrolet pickups. This is a vacuum operated switch that when wired in line with the lockup solenoid, will only allow current to flow to the solenoid at high vacuum (light throttle). It is a normally open 2 terminal switch, which opens at what I measured to be 4 to 5" Hg vacuum. It comes with a 2" x 2" zinc plated steel mounting bracket. The connector (pigtail) for a GM power door lock solenoid (yes you read that right) will fit this connector perfectly. If the tranny is re-wired such that it only locks up in 4th gear, the transmission will only lock the converter in 4th gear at more than 4 to 5" Hg vacuum. Wire a keyed positive source through the brake pedal (normally closed switch side), and through the above vacuum switch, to the transmission. This works OK, except for a few problems. Even with my larger camshaft, the switch really needs to unlock the converter at about 10 to 12" Hg. It does lug the engine at under 40 to 50MPH. Also, it drags the engine down when you are getting off the highway and you are not on the brakes. This is because when slowing down, the tranny is still in 4th gear untill 35 or so MPH (with 3.73 gears). The converter locks up and drags the engine down too low. The B&M control in conjunction with the vacuum switch would be a nice setup. You could also wire the above mentioned toggle switch in line with the vacuum switch.

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 07-13-2007).]