last page of Betty thread explains better
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...1/HTML/061374-8.html


electrical? i hope?

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HELP!!!

new solinoid, grounds connected.. i dont know what to do at this point...

be sure you have the wires correct on the solenoid. another member had them wrong.
use this pic as a ref:



now you can try it directly at the starter, with a short jumper wire. be sure you are in neutral, and the rear wheels are off the ground, and short the battery heavy stud tot he pick stud. if the motor spins then you have a wiring error elswhere.
possible areas are the clutch switch, of if this a convert from an automqtic, the neutral saftey switch not being connected might be an issue. I didn;t read thru the whole thread for all the details...

quote Originally posted by tjm4fun: be sure you have the wires correct on the solenoid. another member had them wrong. use this pic as a ref: now you can try it directly at the starter, with a short jumper wire. be sure you are in neutral, and the rear wheels are off the ground, and short the battery heavy stud tot he pick stud. if the motor spins then you have a wiring error elswhere. possible areas are the clutch switch, of if this a convert from an automqtic, the neutral saftey switch not being connected might be an issue. I didn;t read thru the whole thread for all the details...

hmm... anyone have a pic of the back part on a fiero? the neg? ill check that out tomorrow

new ground strap!! ok NOW it turns!! WOOT!! NOW... how to get it running...?
i need like a list of things to do, step by step.. things to check... so far this is wat happens..

i turn the key, it turns, every .5 sec or so i hear a "psh" like the pressure is being released.. i dont THINK my wires are in the wrong order... but i could be wrong, its always hard to tell with the distributor cap orientation... anyone?

[This message has been edited by BobadooFunk (edited 04-18-2007).]

is that manifold not tight? looks like it's loose in that pic...

do you hear the fuel pump prime? i just went though a bunch of stuff on my duke.

Check the timing. I just did a motor for another car and it ended up that the timing was way off and wouldn't start but would crank.

quote Originally posted by BobadooFunk:

That exhaust manifold is going to have one hell of a leak when it fires up. That's probably where the "psh" sound is coming from.

As for starting, back to basics.

You need fuel pressure.
You need spark.
You need air.
You need correct timing.

Spark you can check for by pulling a plug wire. Put a bolt in it to get a conductor sticking outside the boot, then hold it (with insulated gloves/pliers) near the engine block and turn the engine over and look for spark. You can also probably hear the spark *tick* when it fires. (be sure to use electrically insulated gloves and/or pliers or it may shock the color outta your hair )

Make sure the fuel rail is holding fuel pressure. You can use a test light on the injector leads to see if they're activating.

Once you know you have fuel and spark, then it's a matter of timing.

Check and see if your Service Engine Soon light comes on when you turn the ignition key to ON (with the engine off). If it doesn't, the ECM may not be getting power, and the injectors will never fire.

[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 04-18-2007).]

that big blue plug is for the TCC solenoid.
lonnie

yea the TCC i just unplugged for the pic, and i know the manifold is loose (its barely on actually... i just want to get it started ( plus itd be fun to hear the ROAR ) TIMING!! i forgot about that... umm.. i have no idea how to do it though.. like , not a clue.

Well, first you have to get the #1 cylinder at Top Dead Center (or close) on the compression stroke (both valves closed). You can do this by taking out all the spark plugs (easier to turn the engine over) and holding your finger over the #1 spark plug hole and turning the engine over until you feel pressure pushing against your finger. That should be the compression stroke. Then slowly turn until the timing marks line up to 0 and you should be at roughly TDC. (close enough for timing purposes)

Then, make sure the rotor is pointing to the number one spark plug wire so you know the distributor is in properly. That should get you in the ballpark. You can try turning the engine over with a timing light to check the timing and it should be somewhere near 10° BTDC. Don't forget to jump the diagnostic terminals in the ECM to put the ECM in diagnostic mode. It should be flashing the "12" - OK code over and over.

I'll try to go into more detail when I can check my manual. The Haynes or Chilton books may give you some tips, but I'm not sure how in depth they go.

Regardless of how far off the timing is, though, you should make sure you have spark and fuel first. That way you're only worrying about one variable at a time.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Well, first you have to get the #1 cylinder at Top Dead Center (or close) on the compression stroke (both valves closed). You can do this by taking out all the spark plugs (easier to turn the engine over) and holding your finger over the #1 spark plug hole and turning the engine over until you feel pressure pushing against your finger. That should be the compression stroke. Then slowly turn until the timing marks line up to 0 and you should be at roughly TDC. (close enough for timing purposes) Then, make sure the rotor is pointing to the number one spark plug wire so you know the distributor is in properly. That should get you in the ballpark. You can try turning the engine over with a timing light to check the timing and it should be somewhere near 10° BTDC. Don't forget to jump the diagnostic terminals in the ECM to put the ECM in diagnostic mode. It should be flashing the "12" - OK code over and over. I'll try to go into more detail when I can check my manual. The Haynes or Chilton books may give you some tips, but I'm not sure how in depth they go. Regardless of how far off the timing is, though, you should make sure you have spark and fuel first. That way you're only worrying about one variable at a time.

so i just turn the rotor with my hand?

i dont have a timing light , should i buy one (keep in mind i have no idea how to use it..)

do i have to do the computer thing only if im using a timing light? why do i do that?

(see told you im clueless here...)

Just have Alex dance nekid in front of it. That's bound to get someone's motor runnin'.

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Whade' "The Duck Formerly Known As Wade" Duck
'87 GT Auto
'88 Ferrario
'84 Indy

[This message has been edited by whadeduck (edited 04-19-2007).]

quote Originally posted by BobadooFunk: so i just turn the rotor with my hand?

You need to first remove the hold down bolt and retainer and lift the distriubtor out until it disengauges from the camshaft. Then yes, you rotate the rotor with your hand, well fingers work better.

quote Originally posted by BobadooFunk: i dont have a timing light , should i buy one (keep in mind i have no idea how to use it..)

In order to set it properly you need one.

quote Originally posted by BobadooFunk: do i have to do the computer thing only if im using a timing light? why do i do that? (see told you im clueless here...)

Yes it is necessary when using the light. It is done to disconnect the computer from the ignition module which sets and advance timing sequence when running under normal conditions.
Was this car in a running condition before all this began?

OK!! just got back from Harbor freight (man i love that place!) and bought a timing light (12.99)

gonna print +bring out what ive been told so far, and see what i come up with ...

[This message has been edited by BobadooFunk (edited 04-19-2007).]

quote Originally posted by whadeduck: Just have Alex dance nekid in front of it. That's bound to get someone's motor runnin'.

And take pics!


Any luck tonight?

quote Originally posted by BobadooFunk: so i just turn the rotor with my hand?

You do not remove the distributor. You loosen the bolt holding the hold down clamp (looks like a 2 prong fork kinda) at the base of the distributor. Then turn the whole distributor. The rotor will not move. The distributor moves around the rotor. The idea is to get the rotor to point to the #1 position on the dist cap while the piston is at top dead center. But the cap is removed while you turn the dist so the easiest way is to mark the dist base below the #1 position on the dist cap. That way when the cap is pulled to see the rotor, you have a mark to line up with the rotor that you can see easily. You are looking for close, not perfect. The timing light is used to get it perfect. The bolt on the hold down clamp needs to be tight enough to not let the dist move freely, but loose enough to move by hand. Place the timing light pickup on the #1 spark plug wire, red clamp on positive 12v and black clamp to ground. Now look at the harmonic balancer under the timing chain cover marks. See a big cut in it? That is top dead center (assuming you got #1 piston at TDC before). Mark that cut with something bright white (chalk works well). Put the dist cap back on. Now you can put the car in diagnostic mode (jumper terminals A and B on ALDL connector) and start it. Point the timing light at the harmonic balancer above the timing marks on the front timing chain cover. The light will flash when the spark plug fires. The effect is the mark does not move. (strobe light effect) In reality it jumps around a bit. Now move the dist slowly until the mark stays below the "10" on the timing chain cover. Now move the timing light pickup to #4 spark plug wire. Check the timing mark is under the "10" again. Your goal is to get as close as you can to "10" between #1 and #4. Don't forget to tighten the hold down bolt for the dist when done.

Question for anyone: The Fiero factory underhood instructions say to have the car in "Drive" during the test. Thats fine for an auto, what do the manual cars say? Is it really necessary?

quote Originally posted by Formula88: And take pics! Any luck tonight?

ugh i must suck at this timing thing..

im gonna try again tomorrow.. but no i didnt get it, i did tighten that exhaust manifold though!

i didnt pull any plugs out i just used my ratchet to rotate enginegot the line to the mark, then tried to set it, no luck, i guess i did something CLOSE though, as at one point ( i did timing 4 times) i had a cyl fire a few times it was loud and scared me at first, then i realized what it was and it made me happy...
at first this was an issue, plug wasnt going all the way in, i fixed that and checked, i have spark!


My timing gun.


i want it a little more south east while in TDC right?



tomorrow i plan on pulling out plug one, and just putting some rope in there till i feel pressure (then ill know its on its way UP!) then trying yet again to set timing.. and perhaps some more interior teardown..

You can put something straight and metal in there too, like a screw driver or a mechanics pick or coat hanger. Just don't use anything that will be left behind like a sharp pencil......

As you turn the crank and the piston comes up, whatever you stick in the spark plug hole will be pushed up too. When it hits TDC it will stop and start to go back down. Stop there and look at the harmonic balancer mark (If it is not there, turn the engine another 360 degrees and try again). Now fine tune the position of the mark until it reads zero on the timing chain cover scale. Now move the dist to where the rotor points to #1 position on the dist cap. That is TDC with the rotor lined up to #1 spark plug. Now you can try to start it to set the timing to 10 degrees before top dead center; BTDC. It is OK to move the dist around a bit if it helps to get it started. Once running, set your timing with the light.

Reference your picture above, this is my dist position:

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 04-19-2007).]

quote Originally posted by Hudini: You can put something straight and metal in there too, like a screw driver or a mechanics pick or coat hanger. Just don't use anything that will be left behind like a sharp pencil...... As you turn the crank and the piston comes up, whatever you stick in the spark plug hole will be pushed up too. When it hits TDC it will stop and start to go back down. Stop there and look at the harmonic balancer mark (If it is not there, turn the engine another 360 degrees and try again). Now fine tune the position of the mark until it reads zero on the timing chain cover scale. Now move the dist to where the rotor points to #1 position on the dist cap. That is TDC with the rotor lined up to #1 spark plug. Now you can try to start it to set the timing to 10 degrees before top dead center; BTDC. It is OK to move the dist around a bit if it helps to get it started. Once running, set your timing with the light. Reference your picture above, this is my dist position:

is the 3 on the cap, the 3rd piston/plug/wire? hmm.. maybe my wires ARE in the wrong place... i dont know!! you know the book makes it impossible to tell.

BobadooFunk: On my engine, the rotor points to almost the same spot as yours for spark plug #1. But that isn't really important, because you can turn the distributer to make the #1 spark plug wire line up to it. The important part is to have the rotor and the #1 spark plug wire lined up.

The big question is whether or not your timing is actually set at #1 TDC on the compression stroke. You see, the engine will come around to #1 TDC twice during a complete combustion cycle... once for compression (and spark) and once for exhaust. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell on an assembled motor. You could try turning the rotor 180° and see what happens. If that doesn't help, you can always turn it back.

Best of luck!

the way I tell if I am approaching top-dead-center on the compression stroke is to put my finger over the number 1 cylinder spark plug hole and rotate the engine clockwise as your looking at the belt drive pulleys. that is looking from the pax side of the car to the drivers side. If you cannot get someone to help you rotate the engine while you have your finger over the hole, you can thread the spark plug in just enough to hold it in place but loose enough to leak air. when you hear the "hisss" coming out around the spark plug then you are on the compression stroke. you can use the rod or screwdriver method after finding the compression stroke to determine the actual top-dead-center. then verify that the mark on the harmonic balancer is at or very close to 0 degrees on the timing plate. if that checks ok then rotate the engine backwards (counter-clockwise) about 90 degrees. when you have done that then carefully rotate the engine clockwise again and stop it at 10 degrees before-top-dead-center (do not accidentally pass the mark up). when you have done all of that then set your distributor rotor in the general area of the number 1 pole on the distributer cap. after that line up the body of the distributor so it lines up with the rotor and then clamp it down lightly. the distributor body should have enough friction so it does not rotate unless you grab it and rotate it with a little force. make sure the rotor is seated all the way down and your ignition module wires are secure. place the cap on and verify that the wires match the firing order, again in a clockwise fashion around the distributor cap. verify that the wires from the coil are plugged all the way in and are secure. try starting the car. if it runs then you can put it in diagnostic mode and set the timing with your new timing light to 10 degrees before-top-dead-center. I am pretty sure the book says to also check number 4 cylinder with your timing light and you should set the timing to 10 degrees as the average between number 1 cylinder and number 4 cylinder. (i am weak on that one so hopefully if i messed that up someone will chime in and correct me). If all else is working ok, your engine should run fine. if it runs rough, start listening to the injectors with a mechanics stethoscope to see which ones are not ticking...

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: BobadooFunk: On my engine, the rotor points to almost the same spot as yours for spark plug #1. But that isn't really important, because you can turn the distributer to make the #1 spark plug wire line up to it. The important part is to have the rotor and the #1 spark plug wire lined up. The big question is whether or not your timing is actually set at #1 TDC on the compression stroke. You see, the engine will come around to #1 TDC twice during a complete combustion cycle... once for compression (and spark) and once for exhaust. Unfortunately, it's hard to tell on an assembled motor. You could try turning the rotor 180° and see what happens. If that doesn't help, you can always turn it back. Best of luck!

That's what I was gonna say. If you just line up the timing marks, you've got #1 at TDC, but it may not be on the compression stroke. For every one revolution of the rotor, the engine turns 2 complete revolutions, so you may be 180° out. Although, if you got a few sputters and fire, my guess is you've got it close and it's just a matter of maybe being 1 tooth off in either direction on the distributor. This can be a pain for anyone, even if they've done it before.

If it's trying to fire, loosen the distributor hold down bolt and have someone turn over the engine while you turn the distributor back and forth slightly to see if that helps. You can also try to check the timing while it's firing to see if it's anywhere near the 10°BTDC. As long as it's somewhere in the ballpark, it should fire and then you set it to 10° once it's running and warmed up.

quote Originally posted by Hudini: You do not remove the distributor. You loosen the bolt holding the hold down clamp (looks like a 2 prong fork kinda) at the base of the distributor. Then turn the whole distributor. The rotor will not move. The distributor moves around the rotor. The idea is to get the rotor to point to the #1 position on the dist cap while the piston is at top dead center. But the cap is removed while you turn the dist so the easiest way is to mark the dist base below the #1 position on the dist cap. That way when the cap is pulled to see the rotor, you have a mark to line up with the rotor that you can see easily. You are looking for close, not perfect. The timing light is used to get it perfect. The bolt on the hold down clamp needs to be tight enough to not let the dist move freely, but loose enough to move by hand. Place the timing light pickup on the #1 spark plug wire, red clamp on positive 12v and black clamp to ground. Now look at the harmonic balancer under the timing chain cover marks. See a big cut in it? That is top dead center (assuming you got #1 piston at TDC before). Mark that cut with something bright white (chalk works well). Put the dist cap back on. Now you can put the car in diagnostic mode (jumper terminals A and B on ALDL connector) and start it. Point the timing light at the harmonic balancer above the timing marks on the front timing chain cover. The light will flash when the spark plug fires. The effect is the mark does not move. (strobe light effect) In reality it jumps around a bit. Now move the dist slowly until the mark stays below the "10" on the timing chain cover. Now move the timing light pickup to #4 spark plug wire. Check the timing mark is under the "10" again. Your goal is to get as close as you can to "10" between #1 and #4. Don't forget to tighten the hold down bolt for the dist when done. Question for anyone: The Fiero factory underhood instructions say to have the car in "Drive" during the test. Thats fine for an auto, what do the manual cars say? Is it really necessary?

I beg to differ on the first part of this statment Hudini.
Unless the rotor position was marked and the engine was not disturbed (which it was to adjust the valves on reassembly) the distriubtor must be removed to index the cap and rotor in the correct position. (I notice your is a little off, the rotor (and post on the cap) should point to #1 cylinder where yours points more toward the water pump) Some people do index that way but the flat side of the distrubtor base can only go in a limited area, yours just works. The flat side should be at the rear of the engine almost paraellel to the rear of the block so the wires from the distriubtor will still reach and have no problems rotating to set timing.
And yes, with an automatic it makes a difference as when in park the engine is not under load, and automatic is always under a load in gear and the idle must be correct to run right and also for fuel economy (small consequence).

I hope I have not mashed your hat, I would not want to kill the rabbbit inside!

[This message has been edited by Indiana_resto_guy (edited 04-20-2007).]

ugh no luck whatsoever.. i got firing cylinders, but not good enough.. there was usually one loud fire followed by 4-5 quieter ones.. i think im beginning to lose hope in my ability on this one.. i figure ill just get the car as together as i can, and take it in...

It sounds like you're real close. I wish I was closer, or I'd come by to try and help you get it running. It sounds like you're just off on the timing. That can be very frustrating.

Hang in there. Maybe someone close by can come by to take a look?

If you want to mess with it a little more, take some time and listen to the injectors. I played with my ignition until I ended up buying a whole new distributor only to find that 4 of the 6 fuel injectors were working and 1 of the 4 was really weak. the engine sort of ran for a second or two really rough but then it would quit. I used a piece of 1/4" wooden dowel (about 16 inches long) and placed one end of it on the body of the injector and the other to my ear. The ones that were working made a ticking noise when cranking and the bad ones were silent. A mechanics stethoscope would be the best for doing this but you may not have one handy...

ohh, forgot to ask, is the fuel pressure ok?

quote Originally posted by cptsnoopy: If you want to mess with it a little more, take some time and listen to the injectors. I played with my ignition until I ended up buying a whole new distributor only to find that 4 of the 6 fuel injectors were working and 1 of the 4 was really weak. the engine sort of ran for a second or two really rough but then it would quit. I used a piece of 1/4" wooden dowel (about 16 inches long) and placed one end of it on the body of the injector and the other to my ear. The ones that were working made a ticking noise when cranking and the bad ones were silent. A mechanics stethoscope would be the best for doing this but you may not have one handy... ohh, forgot to ask, is the fuel pressure ok?

no idea , im seriously thinking about buying the Feul pressure gauge from the Fiero store.. ive always like those..

Here is the easiest way I have found to do it, Pull the spark plug out of #1 cylinder, put your finger in the hole, then have someone hit ignition switch a little at a time til the motor comes around and pushes air against your finger, then you at least know its getting close, then turn the motor over by hand until you see/feel(with a piece of cut coat hanger) until the piston stops coming up, dont let it go down! not your marks on the crank pully and the tiiming tab should be close.. line the mark up to 0(I think) then you know you are at top dead center. Now, you pull the distributer out and work the rotor around til it lines up as close as you can to the #1 on the cap. there now you are close.. tighten down the distributer but not so tight that you canot move it at all. Put plug back in and the wire back on, now your ignition system is all back together cept that you can still move the distributor back and forth with some force. Now hook your timing light to #1 plug wire and the positive clamp to batter positive on the battery. start the car(should start) and set the distributer to whatever it is supposed to be set to.. dont forget to unhook the computer line to the dist!!

Thats the easiest way!