I'm painting my car with Nason Ful-Base B/C basecoat and Nason SelectClear 497-00 Overall Clear coat. I applied the base and clear (2 wet coats of base and 3 wet coats of clear) per the instructions on the cut sheets and all was good. I sanded the clear with 1500 and started buffing the panels with Meguiar’s Medium Cut compound and a dense foam pad. It was looking fantastic until I cut through a couple of edges all the way to the primer. Now what? Can I spot repair and blend, or do I have to sand and repaint the entire panel? If spot repair is possible, how do I do it?

Also, I have some dirt nibs and a couple of fish eyes in the clear. Can I sand those out, re-clear the spot then blend?

…and, while sanding out the primer on the front fascia, I uncovered a crack that appears to be in the original paint under the primer. Should I grind that down to the original surface, re-prime and sand? I assume that’s the best way to fix this. Any thoughts?

Lastly, How can I reduce orange peel? I am heating the booth to between 60 and 70 degrees for several hours before painting (with the parts inside) and can’t really thin the clear coat (it’s a 3:1 mix of clear and reducer/activator).

Thanks in advance for any and all help.

------------------
1986 SE 350 V8

quote Originally posted by tesmith66: It was looking fantastic until I cut through a couple of edges all the way to the primer. Now what? Can I spot repair and blend, or do I have to sand and repaint the entire panel? If spot repair is possible, how do I do it?

Depending on what you after--show car--daily driver? Some guys are good at blowing that in, I`m a perfectionist so I would re-paint the whole/damaged/affected panels. This would be a preference call. On my end I tend to see the blown in areas mostly on solid colors and when the car is dirty the spots show through more of course door edges don`t look quite as bad as burning threw the hood or something of that nature, then blowing it in --any way of getting some pics?

I can get some pics tonight- maybe. It all depends on what the boss and the little princess have in store for me when I get home

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tesmith66:
Also, I have some dirt nibs and a couple of fish eyes in the clear. Can I sand those out, re-clear the spot then blend?/QUOTE]
If the fish-eye hasn`t gone down to the base. You can sand and re-clear. The dirt should sand right our for you.

What grit should I sand the clear with?

quote Originally posted by tesmith66: …and, while sanding out the primer on the front fascia, I uncovered a crack that appears to be in the original paint under the primer. Should I grind that down to the original surface, re-prime and sand? I assume that’s the best way to fix this. Any thoughts?

If it has cracks or stress cracks showing back through--yes you have to take that all the way down to the original surface , then bring it back up again. I had this happen --didn`t show for a week and I had the car mostly back toghther after the finish work, lucky it was the front facia like you have, so it`s easy enough to pop back off and re-do.

Sorry for all of the questions, but...

Do I use the flexible bumper repair epoxy to build it up or can I just apply several coats of primer? I'm using Nason Select Prime 2K stuff.

I learned backwards, learned finish work first , then paint (still working on that) ..lol.. Anyway the guy who taught me was a show car and bike builder, painter, restoration--don`t you hate those guys, anyway he did alot of paint graphics, flames, you name it, he`s been in most all major car mags out there, he taught me with 2000 grit wet, I have used 1500 before along with some other type paper, but I still prefer 2000 grit, it takes a little longer--but it really shows in the end--you can pull out alot of depth . I don`t use a block either--I know finger marks--but none to date, also most folks sand back-n-forth--I still do it in tiny sections in circles. I guess its mostly preference like in anything else.

A three way sort of crack (3 legs about 1" long eminating from a common point) right on the front lower corner. It appears only when you flex the fascia and it looks to be in the original paint.

If its doing that when you flex it--it will come back again--probally best to do it your way, wierd part would be if you said it was on the drivers side--thats exactly what and where mine was to the tee..

It's oficially weird then...

Ok , This is getting scary, just ran out to the shop to look at the 87Gt and another 86GT one is ok in paint, (but is getting painted anyway) the other one is on the list for paint 1st . They both have the same stress cracks there--what the heck is going on--whats over there on that side? I feel like the twilight zone here..lol...

The 2K nason primer will work fine on bare urethane, just wipe it down with something like dupont Plas-stick wash first. Thats exactly what i used and it worked great.

Once you burn through to the primer, you need to repaint the entire panel. You will never be happy with the results otherwise. The fisheyes in your clear usually mean that something is on the surface of your paint and the paint won't stick to that spot. You can try to sand out the clear and get a smooth surface, but chances are you will sand into the color since the bottom of the fisheye center is most likely a spot where no clear has settled. Either way, I highly recommend respraying a light coat of base color over the entire panel as you will need to sand or scuff the entire panel just to reshoot the clear anyway, and this way you know that your color will match. Don't try to blend clear. It takes a lot of experience to blend clear successfully.

As for your damage on the facia, check to make sure that the plastic itself isn't cracked. If it is, you can sand all you want and your cracks will still show through. If the plastic isn't cracked, then sand down to the urethane ( through the primer ) and start over. You'll be very happy with the results.

Dirt nubs? Try to sand them out with 1500/2000 grit wet sandpaper. Keep the paper wet and work slowly so you don't trash the area around your dirt and hopefully it will come out. If it's a decent size chunk, the dirt may have settled through the clear and is actually sitting on the base color which means that if you try to get the entire piece out, you'll burn through again. It's a chance thing.

As for your orange peel, there are several things that you may be doing wrong. This is also a experience thing. You may be moving your gun too fast with too much paint flowing, or moving the gun too slow with not enough paint flowing. You may have too little air pressure with too much paint flowing or too much air pressure with too little paint flowing. There are a lot of variables.....air pressure, paint flow, speed of application, distance from the surface you are holding the gun, air temperature, reducer mixtures, reducer temperatures, air movement in your shop..........again, this is where the experience comes in. If you have good paint coverage but a bit of orange peel, you can sand that out. I use 1500 for the first cut, then go back with 2000, then 3000. You'll end up with a mirror finish if you don't burn through. Be very careful around your edges, especially with the buffing wheel.

Good luck, and drop a few pics.

Mark the paint guy

------------------

Thanks for the replies.

The base coat laid down beautifully, and the clear looks fantastic in most places. The orange peel I have is manageable, I just wanted to lessen it more. If I decide to repaint the panels, should I just 220 the whole thing, followed by 400, color, then clear again?

As far as the cracks go, I didn't see them until I was sanding the primer, and I had to make a repair in that area, so I was all over it and saw nothing. I'll just sand away until they are gone and go about my business.

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1986 SE 350 V8

Spot repair:
Sand the area with 1000 (out past where you'll blend the clear), use blending agent to melt in the edges of the clear. Folks say you can't do this but I do it all the time & there is no way to tell if done right.
Finish sanding:
Sand with 1000 using a medium sponge pad (not too soft) or paint paddle. Follow up with anything from 1500/2000 (by hand) to 2000/3000/4000 (on a DA), depending on the grit of the compound. If it looks great using 1500 as a final then use that, or go to 2000 to make buffing eaiser.
Orange peel:
Use a slower drying reducer or paint in cooler temps. Keep in mind you may get runs if you go too far with this. Best to just sand it out when done unless you're getting *really* bad orange peel.
Dirt:
Sand smooth using a small peice of paint paddle using 1000.
Fisheyes:
Fill with a drop of clear from a brush or paper match & sand smooth same as dirt.
Crack:
Yes you'll have to sand out the crack in the original paint. Prime with EPOXY primer - the other shtuff will not flex & WILL crack if you flex it.
Been doing this shtuff for 35+ years. :-)
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Scientists say we only use 20% of our brains. But if they're only using 20%, how would they know?

Tim, I know you probally allready know this stuff, but this site is a dedicated good bunch of guys you might enjoy, I keep forgetting to post it. http://www.autobody101.com/ Their forum is about like ours and they have tech advisors, tips , tricks, and the latest techniques out there..

quote Originally posted by Firefox: Don't try to blend clear. It takes a lot of experience to blend clear successfully. Mark the paint guy

I can verify this is true...my "painter" (and I use the term loosly) tried to blend clear and it looked terrible. That's one of the reasons the whole car is being repainted.

Mark the paint guy please paint my next car.

quote Originally posted by jscott1: I can verify this is true...my "painter" (and I use the term loosly) tried to blend clear and it looked terrible. That's one of the reasons the whole car is being repainted. Mark the paint guy please paint my next car.

It's not that hard. Do like I said & sand the area with 1000, blend with Blending Agent (made for the paint you're using). Overlap the clear coats a couple inches further out each time. Spray a light "coat" of Blending Agent around the edges just before the last coat of clear, & a light mist after. After sanding & buffing you won't be able to tell the difference. I've done it with all kinds of paint, including the *very hard* Sikkens clear on BLACK.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Remember 1/2 of the population is below average.

Here are some random shots of my progress. The camera always makes things look worse than they are (the orange peel is not as bad as it appears).













There's a run under the vent openeing, but it's hard to see...







Look closely and you'll see the crack in my nose.



And here's one of the reasons this project has been taking sooooo long



Thanks for all of the replies! I think I'm going to repaint the problem panels. That sounds easier than blending to a novice like myself.

------------------
1986 SE 350 V8

Tim, Your doing great, the drivers around you are going to have to wear sun glasses to see where their going, nice work, I like your set-up.... How old is the little one? Let you in on a little secret, build and buy all the projects your going to do in the future, those little guys start costing money as they start getting older....Lots $$$$$

Thanks!

Addison is almost 17 months old. Like I said, she really slows things down, but I don't mind it at all. I know all about the $$$ thing. Have a 16 year old daughter and an 11 year old son. Just another reason why things are taking so long...

Oh God, You qualify for sure. I have them 17&/1/2 Son (has figured the world out) and 15&1/2 Daughter (boy crazy) .. Don`t they have some law--like we have to keep them for a while or something like that? Everything I own keeps dissappearing, and I`m getting to old to keep going to find the stuff, I think they got a car or 2 out of me ??? see I can`t remember when or how--I just know one day they where here, and now there gone...lol...

Runs:
Cut a peice of paint paddle down to about the size of the run or a little shorter (or an inch or two long). Wrap 500 grit paper around it & sand the run smooth, being careful to keep it flat & not let the edges dig in. Once smooth go to the 1000 & proceed to sand & buff as the rest of the car.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Pardon my driving; I'm reloading.

The way to wetsand it is to stay almost completely away from about 1/4" of edges. Buffer eat edges a lot faster than flat surface. I usually use masking tape on the edges of the panel adjoining the one im buffing. Like Mark says, if you want a perfect job, your better off masking off the panel and respraying where you burned it enough to cover it and reclear the panel. Always buff it so the rotation comes OFF the edges and not ONTO them. Some people say theyve blended it in, but none Ive ever seen. Once catalyzed paint is hard, nothing softens it back up to completely blend it in again. Weve gone over this before. I can spot any blended attempts in basecoat systems .... I do some on dealer cars where they only need to be good enough to get away with. If your edges are small, Ive had great luck just brushing the color back in on the edge, brushing on some clear, then resanding that area before you go back to buffing. Ive gotten some that pretty much disappeared. Im talking about something burned off like the width of a pinstripe.

On smaller runs, the paint stores have a little block that looks like a gray oilstone. You just soak it in water for a few days, then use it to smooth it out. They come in various grits. Then you just polish it out as usual.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 01-05-2007).]

I don't know how much experience you have buffing, but I find a wool pad is best for the first cut. The foam pads are less forgiving and much more harsh in my opinion for buffing. I do use the softer foam pads in the next steps, however. ANd of course I can't let go of supplying this site www.autobody101.com lots of good info and active forums to boot, yet no one's ever thanked me for this one....

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Some people say theyve blended it in, but none Ive ever seen. Once catalyzed paint is hard, nothing softens it back up to completely blend it in again.

Yeah? Try pouring brake fluid on it & see what happens!

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Weve gone over this before. I can spot any blended attempts in basecoat systems ....

Yes we have. And every time I say I can do it & have done it on all kinds of paint (including urethane clear over base coat) you say it can't be done & basicly call me a liar. Well I don't lie & I can blend urethane over black & you'll never be able to tell it. So please stop calling me a liar just because you can't do something. You want to SEE it come see it for yourself. I'll bet you $1,000 you can't find the spot I blended.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: Yes we have. And every time I say I can do it & have done it on all kinds of paint (including urethane clear over base coat) you say it can't be done & basicly call me a liar. Well I don't lie & I can blend urethane over black & you'll never be able to tell it. So please stop calling me a liar just because you can't do something. You want to SEE it come see it for yourself. I'll bet you $1,000 you can't find the spot I blended. ~ Paul aka "Tha Driver" Giggle Cream - it makes dessert *funny*!

Wow.....back off, dude.

Just because you've done it and say it's ok doesn't mean it is ok. I've used blending clear and I can still spot the repair because I know where it is and what to look for. My customers can't see the difference but I can. So, yes, it can be done, but I don't like to use it and in my opinion ( read that again.....in MY opinion and apparently Roger's ) I won't recommend it to others to use......especially to our members that haven't had too much experience using car paint. You may have been painting for years, but each and every painter has their own methods and techniques and they do vary, so when someone else offers advise, they need to think about who your target audience is. It's guys that have little or no experience with automotive paint and need the easiest and cheapest way to get their car painted without having to repaint it 4 or 5 times to get it right. Roger owns a body shop......I've been a GM dealership painter and now I paint for our local Fiero clubs and some specialty show car painting and we both have a bunch of experience under our belts and are not just learning the trade and offering ' suggested ' advise. You haven't been a member here long and you might want to be a part of the community instead of trying to tell us that we don't know what we are talking about. We have a number of members here that have a touch of experience in the painting field and offer advise to others, but when they offer that advice ( in good faith ) and it's not the proper advise, we try to gently correct them if we can. Sometimes we just have to say ' no, that's not the way to do it ' and correct them, but we don't call anyone a liar and we don't trash a thread because of an attitude. As for this website ' www.autobody101.com ', there is a good amount of information in there, but there are also some techniques used that I don't care for and don't recommend. But, on the other hand, I've quoted from that website for some things and do like the tips offered. So, overall, I don't like to offer that website and won't offer it to anyone without explaining why, and I wish that others wouldn't offer that website without knowing the right way and wrong way of doing things. It's just being thrown out there as a helpful suggestion, but it's also being thrown out there by members that don't know a lot about painting. I'd rather spend a half hour typing at the keyboard and offering up MY methods with the disclaimer that this is MY way of doing things and that other painters, including Roger, sometimes have other methods.....but with the same results. There is no ' it's the only way to do things ' here and we are a part of the community and want to see others succede. So, if there is some suggestions offered that we feel are going to cause an issue due to our preferred methods, lack of experience of the painter, or some other reason, we're going to try to correct those suggestions. In your case, I personally recommend against blending clear as it's going to be too hard for a novice painter to figure it out, plus the car is already apart and he's only going to be respraying one piece. If he has a burn through on one or two edge spots, where is the logic in using a blending clear on something like a fender? By the time you respray your base color and clear, you've already repainted about 75 % of the panel anyway, and the cost of the blending clear is a waste of money.

quote Originally posted by countach711: I don't know how much experience you have buffing, but I find a wool pad is best for the first cut. The foam pads are less forgiving and much more harsh in my opinion for buffing. I do use the softer foam pads in the next steps, however. ANd of course I can't let go of supplying this site www.autobody101.com lots of good info and active forums to boot, yet no one's ever thanked me for this one....

I will never use a wool pad again. They dry out too fast and if you don't have a lot of experience, that wool pad will cut right through and burn the paint. If you think you have less control of a foam pad, I feel that you are very much mistaken. Some painters will still use wool pads for polishing, and that's fine for the experienced guy that knows the dangers, but for the guy that's new to polishing it's very dangerous and it's going to wreck the paint. You've got a wool pad with a variable edge and the inexperienced guy is going to hook that on something that he didn't want to hook...such as a panel edge, door handle, trim edge, fuel door edge.......or just run low on rubbng compound without realizing it and heat up the paint and either discolor it or burn through. It takes 1 second to burn through the paint, and with a foam pad you can see the exact edge of the pad, not get the edge caught on something ( unless you are being careless ) and adjust your pressure of the pad on the surface easier. Foam pads are MUCH more forgiving in my opinion, and as for thanking you for the website suggestion www.autobody101.com , I already covered that.

Mark

------------------

I didnt call anyone any names Driver. I clearly said some people have SAID they done it AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN a good blend. That doesnt make it impossible....just I never seen it even from some of the demos the sales reps show you in person, and no one in the business I know has ever done it. Maybe your just one of the 10 people in the world that can. (edit to add as Mark says) and why bother with taking a chance with blending and buying blending clear, when you can just scuff up and reclear the panel in about 15 mins and about $10 worth of clear ?

Im sure everyone knows I meant the urathane once hardened...will not soften by spraying more paint. Of course brake fluid will...you can desolve 100 year old paint with it including baked, just as you can with paint stripper.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 01-06-2007).]

OK, I have an idea. You three guys come over to my place and see who can get the car looking the best. I'll buy the beer

As for the autobody101 site: Great site, lots of info, but left me with just as many questions as I had before. I have been plugging away at this and am pleased with my results. I have some repairs to make, but I'll get through them.

If any of you guys need directions to my house, just drop me a PM

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1986 SE 350 V8

Hmmmm.....unfortunately, I'm kind of tied up at the moment, but if you want to haul the car up here to Milwaukee, I'll be glad to help out.

quote Originally posted by Firefox: Wow.....back off, dude. Just because you've done it and say it's ok doesn't mean it is ok. I've used blending clear and I can still spot the repair because I know where it is and what to look for. My customers can't see the difference but I can.

Well now YOU'RE calling me a liar! Like I said, just because YOU can't do it dosen't mean it can't be done. Actually it's easy.

quote Originally posted by Firefox: So, yes, it can be done, but I don't like to use it and in my opinion ( read that again.....in MY opinion and apparently Roger's ) I won't recommend it to others to use......especially to our members that haven't had too much experience using car paint. You may have been painting for years, but each and every painter has their own methods and techniques and they do vary, so when someone else offers advise, they need to think about who your target audience is.

Which is why I offer my techniques on how to do something that apparently others "can't" do.

quote Originally posted by Firefox: It's guys that have little or no experience with automotive paint and need the easiest and cheapest way to get their car painted without having to repaint it 4 or 5 times to get it right. Roger owns a body shop......I've been a GM dealership painter and now I paint for our local Fiero clubs and some specialty show car painting and we both have a bunch of experience under our belts and are not just learning the trade and offering ' suggested ' advise.

I have my own shop too. I've been painting - & blending in repairs on - show cars for over 35 years. I think I know a little.

quote Originally posted by Firefox: You haven't been a member here long and you might want to be a part of the community instead of trying to tell us that we don't know what we are talking about.

Well a member of a community tries to help the others, & YOU are the ones that are telling ME that I don't know what I'm talking about!!!

quote Originally posted by Firefox: We have a number of members here that have a touch of experience in the painting field and offer advise to others, but when they offer that advice ( in good faith ) and it's not the proper advise, we try to gently correct them if we can. Sometimes we just have to say ' no, that's not the way to do it ' and correct them, but we don't call anyone a liar and we don't trash a thread because of an attitude.

So when I offer my advice - with all my experience - it's bad advice just because you "can't" do what I & others can? Saying something CAN'T be done when a person says it CAN & even offers their technique on doing it IS calling them a liar.

quote Originally posted by Firefox: In your case, I personally recommend against blending clear as it's going to be too hard for a novice painter to figure it out, plus the car is already apart and he's only going to be respraying one piece. If he has a burn through on one or two edge spots, where is the logic in using a blending clear on something like a fender? By the time you respray your base color and clear, you've already repainted about 75 % of the panel anyway, and the cost of the blending clear is a waste of money.

It's not that hard. Try my method & you'll see. On a little Fiero fender, no, I wouldn't suggest a novice blend in a spot. If it's on the corner of a hood, why the hell would you re-sand & re-clear the entire hood (& then re-sand & re-buff it again) when a few inches is all that needs painting? So I'll "back off" when people quit saying I'm lying.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I didnt call anyone any names Driver. I clearly said some people have SAID they done it AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN a good blend. That doesnt make it impossible....just I never seen it even from some of the demos the sales reps show you in person, and no one in the business I know has ever done it.

No, you just said (& I quote) "I can spot ANY blended attempts in basecoat systems ....". Well NO you can't & when I say you can't spot my blends & you say you can then you're calling me a liar.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Maybe your just one of the 10 people in the world that can.

Somehow I don't feel that special... :-)

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Im sure everyone knows I meant the urathane once hardened...will not soften by spraying more paint. Of course brake fluid will...you can desolve 100 year old paint with it including baked, just as you can with paint stripper.

And that was my point: that there ARE products that will soften clear so that you can blend them.
I guess if you had to repair a small scratch on a '71 Chevelle 1/4 panel (for exanple) you would clear the ENTIRE 1/4 panel, the ENTIRE roof, & the ENTIRE other 1/4 panel - since you can't blend the clear. Well try my method & you'll no longer have to do that (if you want to learn something new).

I've had people tell me "You CAN'T sand epoxy primer." Folks with decades of experience. Well I sand the epoxy on every car I paint.

tesmith66:
If I were closer I'd come by & spot in that area for you, & you could tell these guys that I DO know what I'm talking about!

If you folks will excuse me now I have to get back to sanding the '74 Satelite that I'm painting for my brother. Sanding the final coat of EPOXY with 400 wet...
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Scientists say we only use 20% of our brains. But if they're only using 20%, how would they know?

You win. I'm not going to argue with you and further trash this thread.

Tesmith66, I'm sorry about this. I hope things work out for you, and if you do need any further information, just ask. We're still here.

Mark

LOL Mark

Sure you can sand epoxy primer or 2 part primer. Thats the whole point of primer in the first place.

Yes, I wont spot in a quarter on a customer car, even if it means you must clear the panel, roof and other quarter. Thats why insurance companys pay you do do just that. I have yet to have any insurance company only allow me to spot paint something with basecoat. I do spot places in that are PASSABLE, but only on dealers used cars or customers if there willing to accept the result. I use the product and procedures to blend when I do. Ive got more than your 35 years and owned my shop since 1975.

Thats all Im going to add, and like Mark Im outta here.

Well, aside from all of the arguing, I really do appreciate the help you all have offered.

------------------
1986 SE 350 V8

We're still glad to help out. Your panels look great from the pics and you should be just fine in the end. I'm just sorry that things took a turn in this thread and I do apologize.

Like I said, though, we're still here to help. That's the whole point.

Mark

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Ive got more than your 35 years and owned my shop since 1975. .

I begged Roger to paint my car but he was too busy and now my car has been in paint hell for two years. My painter tried to fix all his mistakes by blending and it looked terrible. Now the whole car is being sanded and I have to start from scratch.

quote Originally posted by tesmith66: Well, aside from all of the arguing, I really do appreciate the help you all have offered.

Sorry about that. It just REALLY pisses me off when somebody calls me a liar. I hope my suggestions help you out: like I said I've been doing this shtuff for 35+ years *professionally* (atcually been painting cars for 42 years), & those are the techniques I've developed for the modern urethane base/clear systems. Some folks just don't update their methods to keep up with technology. I used to sand & buff all my show cars with 600 grit & 3M superduty compound. But that was when the only choices you had were laquer or enamel (I used laquer). They were slick as glass just like now, but now I have to use much finer paper & compound (& a lot more time!) to get the same results.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

If you can't take the heat, get out of the nuclear reactor.

quote Originally posted by Tha Driver: ...... It just REALLY pisses me off when somebody calls me a liar.......

Just to settle this out, and to correct you, no one called you a liar. If you go back and read both Roger's and my posts, you'll see that we never did. I said that it can be done but I don't recommend it, and Roger said that he's never seen it done properly. That's the bottom line. We have our opinions, you have yours. We have our recommendations, you have yours.

Mark