Ok....I've read severals threads here on this but...any as answered my question...I want to restore the color of my different gauge needle...I want to know which color (make,company,color) is the closest to the one used originally in the Fiero. I've read to use Testor fluorescent paint (for model kit), but which one? Do you have better suggestion that are closer to the original color or the Testor is the closest? Since all my needle are already faded to yellow and some very pale yellow, I cant figure the exact color.
My needle are of the backlit type ('86 GT original gauge cluster)
Thanks for your help! Yan
[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 06-15-2006).]
Actually I bet Tamiya's clear orange model paint would be the closest match for the backlit gauges, and Model Master's International Orange for the solid color gauges.
Go to a hobby shop and ask the old guy behind the counter for Tamiya X26 clear orange, he'll know what you're talking about I'd apply it to the needle with a toothpic. You can use a thin or thick coat to adjust the light or darkness of the color.
[This message has been edited by RWDPLZ (edited 06-15-2006).]
I'm returning from the hobby shop here in my town.
I've looking for "Testor Fluorescent Orange"....no color by that name...but other type of orange,like "bright orange" etc but no color with "fluorescent" word in it... "bright orange" is not far away to the needle color, as my memory remember. But I'm not sure. I've looked in my '93 Pontiac Transport van, but the needle in my van are a little bit faded by the sun and age too.
Also the guy told me that some of the color in Testor (original line square bottle) are now hard to come by.
In the Model Master (by Testor) they have a Fluorescent Red (FS 28915)...but this one looks like the color of the solid color needle.
Also they have the Tamya X26 clear, but it's a transparent paint. Since I'm looking to be as close to the original needle color, I dont think it's a good choice...maybe with a top coat of white it will do...but also I'm not sure...
So I need other suggestions that are near the real original color .... I'm not looking for a restoration perfect color, but as near as possible.
Does the color of the needle are near the color of the orange font here on Pennock's?
Thanks
[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 06-16-2006).]
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04:59 PM
Whuffo Member
Posts: 3000 From: San Jose, CA Registered: Jul 2003
The original finish on the needles consists of a transparent orange applied to the back of the needle, then covered with a highly reflective white paint.
The first problem is to remove the original paints from the needle. You don't want to just sand it off; the back of the needle isn't flat, it's got a grooved pattern molded into it (Fresnel lens, for the technically minded). This pattern "guides" the light in the needle and lights the back coating evenly along the whole length of the pointer. The trick here is to use a solvent / stripper that'll remove the old paint without dissolving the plastic needle. If you find the right product for doing this, share this information with the rest of us. I've tried and failed a few times...
When all the paint is cleaned from the clear plastic needle, then apply a coat of the transparent orange to the back of the pointers. Let it dry, then apply a coat of bright white paint over the orange. A second coat of white may be needed to get an even coating.
That'll get you a like-new set of needles for your gauges. I've done this once before - only problem is that I used a transparent RED for the needles. Looked great in the daytime - but the red needles disappeared against the red instrument dials at night. No good...
Yeah I understand your definition of "fresnel lens"...the same thing on my laser level straight edge.
I think for the experimentation I will have no other choise to go to the junk yard and extract some needle from some other GM car/van to test.
Like you explained this , it look like more complicated thant simply sanding the back of the needle and repaint with fresh fluo paint as stated in other thread...
Just a thought here, do you think GM used these same needles in any other cars ? If so, maybe you could find needles that are in newer/nicer shape from another GM vehicle. In the shop rod truck I built some years ago, I used a blue transperant color (air brushed) it on all the needles , then did the whole cluster in a back-lit blue--as the truck is atlantic blue metalic on the upper 1/2 and Cadi silver metalic on the lower 1/2 , kinda went with the shops logs colors at that time, did find out that if your really wanting different types of paints, colors, ect, that paint supply houses & hobby centers can order or make about anything you are looking for ..
Yes I can but when I wasin the scrap yard last week, I notice that near all the same type of needle (transparent plastic with back fluo paint) was plague with the same decoloration problem. Also what didnt help is some of the car are oriented in a way that the sun is right on the gauge near all day long. And the center pivot (the little black cap) of the majority is "domed" and not like a "black melon hat" like the one in the Fiero.
If I can fin just one with the color in great shape, I will be able to take it to the hobby shop and chose the right color.
[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 06-17-2006).]
I have a little square bottle in my hand...Testor's #1367, "Flour Orange". I bought it at Wal Mart, maybe 3 years ago...for less than a buck.
I used a razor blade to scrape the original paint/coating off the backs of the needles. Then I sanded the needle backs smooth with 400 we/dry paper, then polished the surface to a glass-like smoothness with some type of auto polish (can't remember now, but I posted this procedure once before). After cleaning, I applied two (maybe three) light coats of the above paint with a small brush. After the paint was dry, I scraped along the edges with a razor blade to make a nice crisp edge.
In daylight, the needles look great - nice and bright and no more faded yellow. At night, the needles are a *little* less visible than before, but certainly adequate in my opinion. This may be because the original faded color was a little brighter than the new orange, or because of the lens issue describe by Whuffo. I can understand how a darker paint color, like red, could be unsatisfactory.
Ive just returned from the hobby shop again. I've purchased: Tamiya acrylic paint bottle X-26 Clear Orange X-2 White
Tamiya spay can TS-45 Pearl White
I will do several test with different combination like 1,2 or 3 layer of orange in combination with a top final coat of white or pearl white. I will use an old CD case. . I took the pearl since it look "semi metallic" and I think it will have a reflective action that I hope will mimic the original white reflective paint.
I talk also with the guy of what I can use to strip paint without damaging the plastic. Since I dont konw the kind of paint used at the factory and the type of the clear plastic of the needle, we just talk about what modeler use...in order heres his answer (from the pro of modelism) -Castrol Super Clean (in spray) -Easy Off (stuff to clean oven) -Brake oil
So I will try to obtain some needle from my salvage yard a do some test. If some of you want to test them I will be glad to har your result.
Thanks all!!!
If we have succes we will be able to do a real "how to restore backlit gauge needle"
PS: I've dusted off my 20 years old model paint kit (a Testor carousel)...and I've found Testor 1127 Orange unopened in it. I put some strip of it on the clear plastic to compare. I've also found that I will maybe have to do a top coat of white or another coat or pearl over the clear orange/pearl white layers since the pearl is not opaque enough. Then I will have to do a real needle test and lighten up the needle to see the effect.
[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 06-17-2006).]
I've removed the RPM needle from my tach/turbo gauge (Sunbird). The turbo needle is very hard to remove..I dont have any succes yet at removing it.
I test rub the back with brake fluid. It dont look to melt or stain the transparent plasitc of the needle. I used Q-tip to rub...rub...rub and the paint come off...
Theback of the needle is "etched" like when you etche glass. This is why , in part, the orange color is bright when the light are on. Also as the white paint goes off it looks more and more that the orange paint was somewhat fluo.
So I have to try other product to try to remove completely the paint...brake fluid dont seem to be enough...some paint seem to be "locked" in the etches roughness.
After each rubbing session, I use rubbing alcool to remove the brake fluid.
So dont sand the back of the needle since you will destroy the "etche" finish that seem important for reflection and brighteness
To be continued
[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 06-17-2006).]
Most model builders use Castrol Super Clean to remove paint from plastic cars and other models, because it removes the paint without harming the plastic. I've had good results with it, except with laquers that were applied directly to the plastic without primer. Easy-off oven cleaner and brake fluid (brake fluid especially) are a bit more potent, and a bit more dangerous. I've seen a couple cars that looked like they melted because they tried to use brake fluid to take the paint off.
I used Tamiya Pearlescant white on a Lotus Esprit model, it looks GREAT. Most of Tamiya's paints are excellent quality, as long as you don't leave the bottle open too long. painting the back of the needle with a thick coat of X26 following by a couple coats of TS45 would be very interesting. The TS45 seams to go on thin, as most whites do.
Finally the brake fluid dont harm the transparent plastic of the needle. Tomorrow I will try to put my hand on Castrol Super Clean and try it.
I've tested thick coat of Clear Orange X26, followed by a 2 hours drying time, after that a thin coat of Pearl White TS-45 and after one hour drying a thick coat of White X2.
All this on a CD cover.
Since the Pearl White is a laquer, if you dont let the Clear Orange to dry completely, it will melt when you will apply Pearl and make "fish eye". Also you have to put the coat very quickly, in one pass.
In all the result was very reflective and "cool"... but I will try without the Pearl on the needle.
Now I will have to be able to remove completely the needle paint before trying this.
[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 06-17-2006).]
I was finally succesful at removing the turbo needle. I rub off the paint with brake fluid again. This time, I dont know why exactly the paint was near completely removed. I painted a thick equal coat of Clear Orange. You have no other choice if you want a uniform coloration to be thick. You have to put a drop and merge it with the precedent drop and stretch it to the edge of the needle with a very very fine paintbrush and so on.
I've done the finishig white coat on the RPM needle....wew!! near perfect. Just a little little bit darker (I think when I look at the orange under the little black cap)...I've tried to simulate light in the needle...I'm not sure for now for the result since the simulation is not perfect , but it look bright...I will have to put it in the gauge pod and try it like a real gauge with the real backlit. I'm confident that I'm right on the target.
So the recipe for now is:
Ingredient--> brake fluid, cotton swab, very very fine model paintbrush, Tamiya Clear Orange X26, Tamiya White X2, rubbing alcool
1-Rub the back of the needle with brake fluid and a cotton swab. 2-Clean the needle with rubbing alcool and continu step 1 until no more paint remains 3-The back of the needle is etched...thats why it look frosted....DONT USE ANY SAND PAPER!!! DONT TRY TO POLISH IT!!!. 4-With the paint brush put a thick uniform coat of Clear Orange X26. Put a little frop and merge it to the other precedent drop and stretch it to the edge of the needle without going over the edge. Be precise. 5-Let it dry 1 to 2 hours 6-Put a relativly thick uniform coat of White X2 why the same method as step 4 7-Let it dry 24 hours 8-You're done...and near perfect restoration of your needle.
Now the delicate procedure of replacing and calibrating the needle...for this I dont have any easy solution...for now.
In the next days, will come the result of my lightning test. Hope to be positive.
Stay tuned...to be continued.
[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 06-17-2006).]
I'm a little bit disapointed...my testing on the original Fiero needle didnt do exactly the same...the result is not as good looking than my test on the Sunbird tach/turbo needle. Tonigh I will test in the dark the Fiero needle in car.
Edit: Disapointment in the brightness department. In fact the needle is a little bit more dim. The effect in the day is good, and the color really fantastic, but it's missing the reflective "touch"....I think it's a little bit brighter with the "frosted" surface than if I had sanded and polished the back of the needle. But ....
So I will definitly have to find an fluo orange that match the original color. For whom who dont mind of the dimmer needle, it's the best method I can suggest.
But I'm scared at using my "pearl white" since it's a lacker, that I suspect it will melt the needle plastic if it have a chance and also I cant put safely a coat of lacker over a coat of acrylic without scraping the job 1 time on 2....
Now I will hunt for this "fluo orange" that I need!!! Or a fluo or pearl white that is chimically compatible with the acrylic and the needle plastic.
I will try to find 1/4 oz. Testor Acryl acrylic series Fluo Orange 1167A and Fluo Yellow 1163A and do some color test and brighteness test again. I will try Testor enamel Fluo Orange T1173...
Other suggestion again?
Also Castrol Super Clean work...but it's not better than brake fluid..I think brake fluid is better...but you need to degrease the needle with alcool and be more carefull.
[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 06-18-2006).]
I've tested Easy Off (yellow liquid spray bottle). If you let it work a little bit, it's better thans brake fluid. Dont seem to attack the plastic. I will have to test it by dropping in the juice a needle and let it 24 hours to see whats happening. If no dammage to the plastic is apparent that will be the cleaner stuff of choice to strip the paint at the back of the needle.
Paint.
I've purchased new paint...two fluo color..yellow and orange. For now I had to mix the two to obtain a tint as near as possible to the factory one. Maybe not enough "amber"...but look like to be more reflective. The Tamiya clear orange/white combinason was the perfect color match...but not enough reflective as stated. The ratio is yellow/orange 1.25:1 (in ml)
Needle
I will need needles to continue my test. I tried it on my "oil pressure" needle in my Fiero. But this needle was too abused by the sun and the plastic have some cracks where the paint is. Two of the cracks are half the thickness of the needle. So I will need to find another one to replace it. Also I will need some spare one to do my test....maybe some from other GM car will do...but I need oil pressure needle replacement.
I will keep you informed of my progression.
[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 06-21-2006).]
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08:18 PM
Jun 22nd, 2006
Whuffo Member
Posts: 3000 From: San Jose, CA Registered: Jul 2003
It looked to me like the white paint behind the transparent orange was not just plain white, it seemed to have a reflective quality to it. Now you've got me interested again; think I'll do a little research into paints...
Yes thats what exactly what I'm thinking...thats why I wanted to use some fluo paint in place of clear orange/white combo.
But the best will be to find some fluorescent white compatible with the transparent orange acrylic...that what I dont know where or who is making this.
One more thing...unfortunatly it's difficult to obtain an even coat of transparent paint...
[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 06-22-2006).]
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09:05 PM
Whuffo Member
Posts: 3000 From: San Jose, CA Registered: Jul 2003
I suspect the original coat of transparent was "pad printed" onto the pointer. I've been searching the web for any information on transparent instrument pointers and the painting thereof; nothing useful has turned up yet.
No no no..I didnt abandon my objective of repainting my needle as near as possible as the original.
Ok I'm in the search of white fluorescent paint. Since the best receip was to use Tamiya clear orange X26 and white X2 in the light of the day but was not satified by the light reflection of it in the night with the backlit, I returned to the hunt for some white fluorescent paint.
I finally found that this kind of paint exist..UV Flourescent paint....and I found a manufacturer that does it in acrylic!!! so compatible with my Tamiya paint!...but I found it only in England on the net. Tomorrow I will go to some art boutique to look for this paint.
I didnt bought any yet. I want to try to find it locally before. If I didnt find it, I will need some help to locate a small bottle of it.
Also I found this interesting text explaining how to make white fluo paint with...red,blue and green fluo paint..
quote
When painting with fluorescent paints, remember that adding color is not the same as with ordinary non-fluorescent colors. When you add fluorescent red, blue, and green in the right mixture, you don't get a murky brown - you get white. Yes, like a color TV, which uses red, blue and green phosphor dots to get colors, you are painting with light (not mixing colors.) In short, take a scrap of material and experiment. You will be surprised at what may be done with light mists of fluorescent paint.
I know this is more of a restoration thread than a painting the needle thread but has anyone tried plain bright white paint? it will make the needed the only white thing in the cluster at night and should have really good visibility during the day.
Heck if you wanted to go nuts make it the brightest light blue you can get, that will stand out in the sea of white and red during the day and all red/orange at night.
Plus it would be very much like the new car instrumentation... doesn't the new escalade have all white ledgends and deep blue pointers?
Finally, anyone try reflective spray paint? you can mix red and white to get an orange if you spray them into a jar then use your paint brush.
What are these reflective paint (spay can)?...can you point me on the right product? I'm still searching for "reflective" paint. Like the paint on the road on road sign. These are reflective paint.
Other kind of "bright paint" are :
Phosporescent...this kind of paint capture light and restore it when its darker...Its the kind of paint you see often on the wristwatch needles for example--->Not tested and no intention to test
Fluorescent paint...these paints are very bright when hit by light...like what you see on hunting clothes or road cones--->Tested
Reflective....thse are the kind of paint for making road lines (yellow, white etc) or on the road signs--->Not tested...but want to test them
I didnt use Phosphorescent, because thats not the kind of paint used on needle. Fluorescent seem a good choice on the front lit gauge because originally it seem to be this kind of paint...but didnt look to work well on backlit type of needle (as far as my experience are concerned)
For the reflective kind of paint, I didnt find anything yet...but if you can point us to some product avaible easily thru comercial store, I will be very happy to try it.
[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 08-10-2006).]
I will check at the local superstore here. they carry reflective "safety" paint in rattle cans and I can get you a brand and model number.
Although, reflective paint i think works by shooting light back at the source.. kind of how road signs get brighter as you get closer because your eyes and headlights are close together... I dont know how much it will help at night but might make day needles look like they are glowing.
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10:18 PM
Feb 4th, 2007
ricksmastermix Member
Posts: 588 From: Commerce, GA 30529 USA Registered: Nov 2001
I couldn't wait. Here's what I did. 1) Took the black cap off of the needle and cleaned both parts with Simple Green. 2) Soaked the needle in brake fluid for an hour and, then, used an old toothbrush to remove the old material on the back of the needle. 3) Cleaned the needle, again, with Simple Green and, then, with rubbing alcohol. 4) Masked the top & sides of the needle and the needle shaft. 5) Sprayed the bottom of the needle with three coats of Krylon Red-Orange Fluorescent paint (3101.) Note- wait about 30 minute between coats. 6) Carefully remove the masking tape and snap the black cap back in place.
Wow! You could use these babies just like they are now. However, a final coat of white reflective enamel (Testors Gloss White #1372A) on the back side of the needle applied with a small modeling brush will improve the brightness of the needle at night with the instrument lamps on.
Also, for you creative types, the Krylon Fluorescent spray paint is available in various colors, such as, Blue, Cerise, Green, Lemon Yellow, Red-Orange, Safety School Yellow & Yellow-Orange.
OK, I'm giving it another try. Started with a well-faded set of instruments, pulled the needles and removed the black plastic hats from them. Then dunked them in a dish of brake fluid (Prestone DOT-3 Synthetic to be precise). After an hour the old paint was starting to dissolve; after 3 hours the needles were clean. Rinsed them well in alcohol and dried them.
One thing I noticed - these needles don't have the Fresnel pattern on their backs, they're just frosted. Interesting; there's at least two different needle designs.
Anyway, the brake fluid dip worked perfectly; the needles are spotlessly clean and there's no damage to the plastic. Next step is to mask them carefully then I'm going to spray them (several light coats) with Rust-Oleum 1955 Flourescent Red-Orange spray paint. If that works out as I expect, I'll top it off with a nice coat of Testors Gloss White; this will prevent any "glow shadow" on the instrument faces and may improve the brightness of the needles.
Hmmm... If one could feed a little UV into the needles they'd really glow. Wonder how hard that'd be to do...
Are those UV light bulbs just a coating on the bulb?
Incandescent bulbs put out almost no UV; UV flourescents are available but would be difficult to fit into the dash. I wonder if UV LEDS are available yet?
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04:32 PM
Whuffo Member
Posts: 3000 From: San Jose, CA Registered: Jul 2003
OK, the red-orange flourescent paint is on the backs of the needles and the masking tape is all peeled off. They look great - an almost perfect match for the factory needle color.
I'll let them dry for a few hours before coating the backs with gloss white. So far, this is working much better than I expected.
Hey men! thats nice to revive this topic...The spring is here, as the Fiero fever (in my case) after a long winter. I will try this new paint recip (krylon paint and testor gloss white). Hope it will do better than my last try. I will have to compare this to my first try with Tamya clear orange+white to see if its stand or is better . After that I will take a decision. The only concern with the Tamya solution is the UV resistance...I dont know the UV resistance (fading and discoloration) of these paint.
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06:56 PM
Apr 17th, 2007
Whuffo Member
Posts: 3000 From: San Jose, CA Registered: Jul 2003
I'd apply it to the needle with a toothpic. You can use a thin or thick coat to adjust the light or darkness of the color.
