I have recently decided to go ahead and paint my 86 fiero gt. I have experience painting cars and body work but have found that things have changed quite a bit. I called Du pont about the new changes to see what would ensure the best paint setup possible for looks and durability. So I priced the additional items and found that on top of the flex additives, primer, base coat, clear coat and reducers, I would spend an additional 275.00 for the new stuff. Get's pretty expensive. So I'm just going to list the proceedure thay gave me and see if any one has suggestions.

step 1. Wash plastics with 2319s
2. scuff with scotch brite
3. wash again with 2319S
4. spray with 2330s adhesion promoter
5. spray with 2-3 coats of 2k urathane primer (mix 2oz of 2350s clear activator per ready spray can of 2k urathane)
6. Same 2k urathane but mixed ratio as a sealer and add same 2350s as above.
NOTE: @70f* can paint in 30 minutes...however after 16hrs must scuff before painting....
7. mix base coat as normal and add 12305s activator (1oz per ready spray can of paint) spray 2-3 med coats
8. now mix Clear Coat and add 2oz of 2350s activator per ready spray per can.
9. after 24hrs of curring can color sand and buff.

now I know the proceedure looks easy to follow but when you price out the 12305s, 2350s,2330s and the 2319s those items are priced at about $275.00. I'm not saying it's not worth it. But overall expense is now well over $1400.00 just for materials.

So to start this questioning has anyone used the BullDog activator/adhesion promoter/tie-bond?

The only thing I use adhesion promoter on is soft interior parts. There is no need to use it for any exterior parts. I even have used Bulldog...still have a spray can of it for about 5 years now on the shelf. They always try to sell you the most stuff they can. I wash with Dawn soap, wax and grease remover, scotchbrite (or approp sandpaper) use laquer Primer / Surfacer, 2 coats of basecoat and 2-3 coats of clear urathane. I still know cars I done exactly that way that are 15 years old or more and still appear in shows. I personally think Dupont and PPG are way overpriced. I use BASF/ RM paint myself and Evercoat Laquer primer ($30 @ gal mixed 50% w laq thinner). Ive been painting cars for a living or part of it since 1960s. My own shop for 35 or so years.

I recently did a Porsche 911 for a friend in red. Materials for the whole job ...filler, primer, scotchbrites, masking tape & paper, basecoat color, reducer, urathane clear, clear hardener, gallon of rubbing compound, buffing pad, finishing glaze and pad was just a little over $400..

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 11-01-2006).]

Thanks for the information. I have a truck that has a painted bumper on the front. The first time I painted it, it looked great but the base coat was chipping off bad. I went back later and repainted it the same way but I added the 12305S (1oz) to the base coat and it has stuck since....amazingly not one chip and I live on a gravel road. I know sometimes they try to sell you everything they can, but what do you do when you don't want to do it over or spend all that money all over again. I know there are a few things I can do to eliminate some of the expense. I just worry because the last facia I painted without adhesion promoter or flex agent, the base coat just pealed off. I definatly agree with you that PPG and Dupont are way overpriced. I have been using Nason, Matrix and sometimes Dupont. It's just that I have a gallon of the torch red from Dupont and that's the color I want. What make my situation extreme is the fact that I live on a gravel road, so my paint work really has to be durable to resist chipping. Since I have added the 12305s to my basecoats they have held up extremely well. Now the only difference is I am painting more flexable parts on the fiero.

quote Originally posted by procarnut: Thanks for the information. I have a truck that has a painted bumper on the front. The first time I painted it, it looked great but the base coat was chipping off bad. I went back later and repainted it the same way but I added the 12305S (1oz) to the base coat and it has stuck since....amazingly not one chip and I live on a gravel road. I know sometimes they try to sell you everything they can, but what do you do when you don't want to do it over or spend all that money all over again. I know there are a few things I can do to eliminate some of the expense. I just worry because the last facia I painted without adhesion promoter or flex agent, the base coat just pealed off. I definatly agree with you that PPG and Dupont are way overpriced. I have been using Nason, Matrix and sometimes Dupont. It's just that I have a gallon of the torch red from Dupont and that's the color I want. What make my situation extreme is the fact that I live on a gravel road, so my paint work really has to be durable to resist chipping. Since I have added the 12305s to my basecoats they have held up extremely well. Now the only difference is I am painting more flexable parts on the fiero.

you can contact dupont direct and the tech's will tell you flat out that adhesion promoter evaperates out of the paint in 30 days . its only there to alow more flexability to the parts when they are being painted off the car. this way it resists cracking untill the parts is on due to having to tweak the part to make it fit correct.

as far as the other paints you are useing why are you useing nason? nason is a comercial paint , not even based for nicer production work. and commonly used in maaco down here. if you want to resist chipping alow it to cure the proper 90 days and than wax it . alot of the chips are from either high speed rocks like on the interstate or rocks hitting the item before it is cured.

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COMING SOON: 4.9 complete rebuild with buds outback northstar pistons , delta cams E303 cam , full ported , polished , and flow tested heads and manifolds. rockcrawl's custom chip
86 and 87 fiero database www.geocities.com/cwandall/fiero.html

go to the forums at www.autobody101.com best place for this type of info in my opinion. It's like Pennocks, but for paint and body. What more could you want?

OK: Forget adhesion promoters & laguer primer. I used to use laquer primer too - 35 years ago. It's 80+ year old technology...
I use *epoxy* primer now. PPG is probably the best. Prep the parts by sanding with 180 dry or 320 wet (those are the max grits you can use & not sand the primer). If the paint is peeling, remove *all* of that layer (usually the clear). If it's been painted before (non-factory) strip it down at least to the factory paint. De-wax, prime with epoxy, shoot the base & clear. Follow the instructions for whatever brand of paint you use. I use Sikkens, but it's high-dollar! No need to sand between the coats if you use epoxy primer. I like to sand the epoxy for a *really* smooth base for the paint, but you don't * have* to. It's a good idea to use flex agent in the clear on the rubber bumpers. Let dry overnight & wet sand with 1000 then 1500, buff & polish. That's the basics. If you need to use rougher grits for prep/stripping, you'll *have* to sand the epoxy with 400 (max) before painting. The above is if you want a really nice job that will LAST. If you don't care about that, find a Maaco with a good reputation & don't waste your time doing it yourself. Really.
There's a basic stripping tutorial on our Ga. Fiero club website http://www.gafiero.org/ in the tech tips section. When I get more time I'll do a painting tutorial with more in-depth instructions & part numbers for the materials I use.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

Hey Leroy, what'cha doin' dragging that chain across the floor?
Leroy: "Ever tried *pushing* a chain?"

Driver, maybe if your doing an all over restoration job, catalyzed primer is OK. I use laquer primer because I can leave it in a gun all the time. I do mostly repair work, and I like being able to prime, block, reprime over and over again until its ready for paint. I can prime and sand one spot 4 or 5 times in a morning. Most of the better restoration paint jobs are still done in laquer. I do lots of older corvettes and they like the spotting jobs you can do with laquer that you cant do with new paints. I just did some repairs on an old one. It had a big crack in the fender and one also on the rear deck. I spotted both places in and there undetectable. Its important on a Bloomington Gold car that you not paint anything more than nec. If i had done the same repairs with urathane basecoat and clearcoat, It would have been whole front half and all of the rear half since there are no breaks in the body. He would have it all painted except for 2 doors and 2 bumpers. I charged him $200 instead of the $3,000 the other way, which by the way would have taken his car off the Gold status. (you are not allowed more than 25% ever refinished). Ive done paint on 2 cars that won awards at Pebble Beach DeElegance too....both laquer. (80 yo tech)

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: Driver, maybe if your doing an all over restoration job, catalyzed primer is OK. I use laquer primer because I can leave it in a gun all the time. I do mostly repair work, and I like being able to prime, block, reprime over and over again until its ready for paint. I can prime and sand one spot 4 or 5 times in a morning. Most of the better restoration paint jobs are still done in laquer. I do lots of older corvettes and they like the spotting jobs you can do with laquer that you cant do with new paints. I just did some repairs on an old one. It had a big crack in the fender and one also on the rear deck. I spotted both places in and there undetectable. Its important on a Bloomington Gold car that you not paint anything more than nec. If i had done the same repairs with urathane basecoat and clearcoat, It would have been whole front half and all of the rear half since there are no breaks in the body. He would have it all painted except for 2 doors and 2 bumpers. I charged him $200 instead of the $3,000 the other way, which by the way would have taken his car off the Gold status. (you are not allowed more than 25% ever refinished). Ive done paint on 2 cars that won awards at Pebble Beach DeElegance too....both laquer. (80 yo tech)

Laquer is fine when repairing an antique that was originally done in laquer. To put base/clear over laquer primer is NOT a good idea. Sure it'll last a little while, but you're putting catalyzed product over air dried product & it will not adhere as well. The primer will soak in reducers & trap them under the hardened paint. I've stripped cars done like that with a razor blade! I can blend urethane just like you're blending the laquer - not a big deal.
Most of the *better* restoration jobs don't have a single thing to do with laquer (except using laquer thinner to clean the guns).
But anyway we ARE talking about painting a Fiero all over. Laquer is not flexible like epoxy (not flexible at all). You *damn* sure don't want to use any laquer primer on the rubber bumpers! Spot repairs for the amateur is a whole 'nother thread.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"


Why do they call it reckless driving if it causes wrecks?

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 11-02-2006).]

I painted my Mercedes 450sl with laquer primer and catalyzed paint. It still looks like brand new 15 years later and its got almost 300K on it. My Ferrari kit is 9 years old and still show worthy. Ive painted many hundreds of vehicles and have yet to have one peel from laquer primer. That includes boats and aircraft too. Yep I use laquer primer on flexible bumpers on corvettes and many Fieros too. No problems I ever seen except the ones that have been wrecked . What I do see peel is using an enamel based primer-sealer. They use that on semi cabs and they do peel nicely with a razor blade. Ive also seen a lot of peeling from gray primer, whatever type it is. I use red oxide. Paint suppliers have told me for years there the same except for the pigment, but obviously something is different between the composition of red and gray.

And NO...you cannot spot in basecoat clearcoat, whole panel must be cleared. No other way. The clearcoat will not soften and allow a blend to happen ever. You might make it LOOK like it does, but after a year or two or a good buffing the edge will show up everytime.

Other than the urathane plastic (not rubber) bumpers , the plastic used on a Fiero is just as rigid if not moreso, than sheet metal. The factory painted Fiero in laquer as all other GM cars in the day ( except for the Oldsmobiles done in water base paint). The base never cracked. The problem with early basecoats was in the clear that was not durable enough, inncompatible or just didnt adhere to the base. BTW you do know that basecoat colors are all based with laquer now anyway right. Thats the reason your basecoat is dry in 15 mins. A true enamel takes hours to dry even to the touch without an oven.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 11-02-2006).]

My dad owns a body shop and all he uses is dupont, it is great paint and last a very long time, it is exspensive, but so are most good brand paints. Also always use the flex additives on the flexible body panels, if you dont, bump something once and the paint cracks all up. Laquer can become hard to come by, many companies have stopped making it, I beleive it was because of pollution. It is also not good for anything but a showcar, the more it sits in the sun the harder it gets and eventually gets small cracks in it.

quote Originally posted by bluhevn86: , the more it sits in the sun the harder it gets and eventually gets small cracks in it.

Thats usually do to non care. I know a few people that have 50s GM cars (also laquer) that have original paint that looks fine. Any car that just sits out in the sun day in and day out for years will also crack eventually. Laquer requires you to keep it clean and waxed, something you dont have to do at all with urathane.

It is true that its hard to come by, like you said because of EPA. Funny thing about that is laquer is only listed as being harmfull, the warnings on basecoat clearcoat systems take up the entire label of the can and can be deadly with only a little use. Laquer primer is not very hard to find. A lot of older shops, like mine, still prefer it for production work. R&M paint supplied most of the paint to GM for at least 30 years and is one of the better paints too. Ill buy Sherwin Williams or Ditzler before Ill buy Dupont or PPG. I also used to use a lot of Autocolor who is/ or was the supplier for Mercedes and BMW. Its also very good and a lot less pricey.


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Owner / Operator Custom Paint and Body...
specializing in Corvette & other Higher End Autos.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 11-02-2006).]

addition: dupont makes Emron paint that is nice flows out smooth like laquer and no clear coat. It is used on things like jets and big trucks i beleive, I used black Emron on my camaro and it looks really slick. A gallon of black paint was around $150, but this was about 2 years ago. Dont get me wrong laquer looks good but after several years in the sun it will show some wear, if its a garaged car it should be fine for a good while

Thats Imron, and it was the original catalyzed paint. It was first designed for aircraft use because it was more durable and less maintanence than any other type. It basicly was a modified Acrylic Enamel. I painted a few of my planes with it and it really only held up slightly longer than plain Acrylic Enamel did without any catalyst. Due to the problems of the overspray hardening in the hanger on everything there, I did all my later aircraft jobs with Acrylic enamel and the striping in laquer (stripes painted first). I painted all the Aero Commander planes off the assembly line in Oklahoma City (El Reno) in Imron when it came out. They originally were Acrylic Enamel. I did those from about 1967-1968.

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Owner / Operator Custom Paint and Body...
specializing in Corvette & other Higher End Autos.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: And NO...you cannot spot in basecoat clearcoat, whole panel must be cleared. No other way. The clearcoat will not soften and allow a blend to happen ever. You might make it LOOK like it does, but after a year or two or a good buffing the edge will show up everytime.

actually dupont has a product called 222 blender . i have spot repaired with base clear paint before and you couldnt even tell it was done

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COMING SOON: 4.9 complete rebuild with buds outback northstar pistons , delta cams E303 cam , full ported , polished , and flow tested heads and manifolds. rockcrawl's custom chip
86 and 87 fiero database www.geocities.com/cwandall/fiero.html

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I painted my Mercedes 450sl with laquer primer and catalyzed paint. It still looks like brand new 15 years later and its got almost 300K on it. My Ferrari kit is 9 years old and still show worthy.

Never said laquer wouldn't hold up if done right & taken care of. Back in the day I did several show cars with laquer too. What I said is don't shoot catalyst-hardened paint over laquer primer. That still applies.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: And NO...you cannot spot in basecoat clearcoat, whole panel must be cleared. No other way. The clearcoat will not soften and allow a blend to happen ever. You might make it LOOK like it does, but after a year or two or a good buffing the edge will show up everytime.

WRONG laquer breath! :-) I've spotted in places on several cars/trucks with urethane & you can't see it AT ALL. *BLACK* even. All you have to do is use a blending agent designed for the urethane used & know what know you're doing.
Every painter has their own techniques & preferences. I expect my paintjobs to hold up for *several* decades, if not centuries if taken care of.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

If you can't take the heat, get out of the nuclear reactor.

I have tried blending agent. It only works to some extent. Blending agent WILL NOT soften hardened, catalyzed urathane. Ive even had the paint reps demostrate it, and I still can see it. There story is that its 'good enough'. Sorry but 'good enough' is NOT good. I do it for some of my dealerships used cars, not customer cars. Your 'perfect' is probably my 'unacceptable'. Ive come to the conclusion that your one of the vacational school body shop graduates that knows all there is to know about paint. Ive been doing it for nearly half a century and Ive forgotten more than you apparently know. Ive painted more cars than exist in whatever hick town you live in. I did custom van paint jobs for a converter...5-8 a week for 12 years for a starter. Hell, ive probably owned more cars than youve ridden in.

Every body person has their own ways of doing things and that dont make ONLY your way the right way. Firefox is the other expert here and a few others are quite knowlegable. You go on believing everything you read in the paint product information sheets you want. Ive already got jobs lasting decades dude and the only way your going to have your paint job last a century is enclose it in a environment controlled plastic bubble. You do have the right to your little dreamworld though. nitey nite.

WOW...didn't know I was going to start a war here.... Anyway just a little info to add to this. Mostly what I heard....I have experinced myself. I grew up in a body shop and yes I've used alot of different paints. My expertiese fall short when it come to produceing a indistructable paint job on a plastic car...I know SMC/PRIM/RIM/TPO. My dad still uses the red oxide primer and he has had fewer warranty claims with cheaper paints. For the last 11 years he has used Transstar clear and haven't had a problem compaired to Dupont clear. I will usually use red oxide primer for rigid applications but i prefer 2k urathane with a flexable activator for soft parts. Too me I seem to get better adhesion with the most flex using 2k over red oxide. However I have to change activators. I'm actually using PPG k200 2k urathane primer except instead of using the k201 activator (rigid parts) I am using K248 activator (flex parts). On the truck bumper I mentioned earlier in this tread, I was sealing it with dupont 2510 epoxy primer and the adhesion wasn't enough to hold the paint thus last time I added the 12305s to the base to cohese the paint, it has definatly worked better. My problem now is the FLEX. Some people don't know the difference between adhesion and Cohesion.....to simplify adhesion sticks to layers, cohesion melts the layers together. So now I'm experimenting with the Bulldog adhesion promoter/activator/tie-bond in most of the stages to see what happens. I did talk to Dupont, PPG, Nason, Matrix and RM reps and they all seem to say for the best cohesion they recommend activatingthe base coat with a activator.

I would like to keep this thread going so that we might be able to share what works for everyone. I am always open for ideas and critisism. Thanks again and keep me posted and I'll let you know how this turned out.

I have worked in body shops since 1965 when all the paint jobs were either synthetic enamel, which took hours to set up between coats and ran very easily, or lacquer jobs that we buffed. I have never heard of anyone using lacquer primer under the modern two part paints available today. I agree with what the Driver said. In my opinion an air dry paint under a two part chemical dry paint can only be trouble. Just my 2 cents worth. Brian

I guess Im just having a wonderful run (40 years) of good luck since I have never had any problem with peeling and Im doing everything all wrong...I know more than most of the paint salesmen from experience and not what the manufacturers tell you.

* you did see this right....." BTW you do know that basecoat colors are all based with laquer anyway right. Thats the reason your basecoat is dry in 15 mins" (read the cans, they all contain the same components)

and not all basecoats even have a hardener. R&M, Autocolor, BASF are a few. In fact they can be reduced with laquer thinner prior to clearcoating. Your rep wont tell you thats possible either. Flex agent was created for laquers because they dried so brittle. None is needed with urathane paint except for soft panels like door trim panels or seats. You cant even add flex to primer. So whats the point of putting paint with flex over a panel primed without it ? You guys need to stop reading all the lit that paint manufacturers put out.

To keep from beating a dead horse, everyone just do what you want and Ill keep doing what works....the end.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 11-03-2006).]

I know you CAN use laquer primer under a b/c,c/c system. I've done that for years. it's just that when I did that ina hi impact area, ie rock/gravel chips spots, the clear,base coat and primer would release on impact. Sometimes the red oxide would stay. Your right that the gray laquer seems to release more.... It's just been a problem for me when I painted that bumper on my custom truck and I used the dupont 2510 epoxy primer it stayed but the base coat released. Since the last time I painted it with the base activator 12305s I havent had a rock chip since. In addition I hit a bar stoll one night on the road and it left a crease down the side and not one spot did the paint released. So I have to say part of what the reps said was true about adding the 12305s activator. They actually learned that from some body shop in California. Granted most guys in the paint shop have more applicable knowledge of what works, but it the communication through the paint reps that seems to share our secrets.

So back to my question... has anyone used the Bulldog (adhesion promoter/activator/tie-bond) in their paint regiment?

Thanks,
Bob

Oh BTW, I'm not saying one thing or another wont work....I'm just looking for the most durable method within a budget.

I do appreciate everyone's imput and hope that we can learn something together to help each other out.

After all...that what I do...teach..If there is something I've learned is not everyone is right or wrong.

I've maked mistakes I'm ashamed of but keeping an open mind only helped me to become what I am today.

Thanks again.

quote Originally posted by rogergarrison: I have tried blending agent. It only works to some extent. Blending agent WILL NOT soften hardened, catalyzed urathane. Ive even had the paint reps demostrate it, and I still can see it. There story is that its 'good enough'. Sorry but 'good enough' is NOT good. I do it for some of my dealerships used cars, not customer cars. Your 'perfect' is probably my 'unacceptable'. Ive come to the conclusion that your one of the vacational school body shop graduates that knows all there is to know about paint. Ive been doing it for nearly half a century and Ive forgotten more than you apparently know. Ive painted more cars than exist in whatever hick town you live in. I did custom van paint jobs for a converter...5-8 a week for 12 years for a starter. Hell, ive probably owned more cars than youve ridden in. Every body person has their own ways of doing things and that dont make ONLY your way the right way. Firefox is the other expert here and a few others are quite knowlegable. You go on believing everything you read in the paint product information sheets you want. Ive already got jobs lasting decades dude and the only way your going to have your paint job last a century is enclose it in a environment controlled plastic bubble. You do have the right to your little dreamworld though. nitey nite.

Blending agent works fine when you sand the area with 1000 first. Like I said I've blended BLACK & you can't see it AT ALL.

*My* PERFECT is like when the guy walked up to one of my jobs at a show & starts checking out the paint & areas I've filled in (taillights & etc. on on a pickup) with a MAGNIFYING GLASS & says "I can't *believe* it - it's PERFECT!". (Yes that actually happened!)

Your conclusion is COMPLETELY WRONG. Yeah I wnet to body school when I was 18: QUIT 'cause I knew more than the instructor!

I've been doing CUSTOM work (including Vettes & fiberglass, & yes conversion vans too) for over 35 years. I think I know a little.

My "hick town" is metro ATLANTA. Yeah not too many cars around here...

Yeah the factory reps don't know anything. After all they just know what decades of R&D have taught them!

I think if one of my paintjobs lasts 20 years parked outside with zero care ( & they have) then they'll last a century if kept indoors & taken care of. Don't expect to live long enough to find out, though... :-D

If you're going to continue name-calling & insults just because I learned about the new technologies when they came out & you stuck with the old, you can kiss my ass.
~ Paul
aka "Tha Driver"

America - made in China! :-(

[This message has been edited by Tha Driver (edited 11-03-2006).]