After enjoying a nice drive together here in Minnesota.
Honey asks me if the car is handling alright? THu, it's a Fiero.
(Corvette owner. Otherwise he is an O.K. guy. ) Luv ya, honey.

Now he has me wondering though.
Maybe I didn't pay close enough attention, or plain didn't notice it,
but yes under hard acceleration/ putting your foot in it. It feels ....weird/different.
Not both sides, just one.Not like night and day, but off. Now I am analyzing everything. More squeaks on one side than the other.
Punch line ... there appears to be a hairline tear in the flexible material around the driver side strut tower.
Phil, a while back mentioned about a strut tower letting go. Forgot the details on why and how, though.

[IMG]edit...


Anybody else?

[This message has been edited by Tina (edited 11-03-2006).]

if you are concerned then you can weld the seams together all around the strut towers. its a lot better than the little spot welds from the factory, its just time consuming.

could also be signs of additional flex elseware in the frame possibly due to hidden rust (under the side skirts etc)

but it could possibly just be spot welds pulling away from long term "abuse" of a v8 -- or maybe just unevenly wearing suspension parts contributing to the feel of the car

Umm... with a V8 crammed in the trunk of a car that had trouble fitting a V6, are you sure it's not just the wholly insane notion of such a thing, as opposed to the suspension?

Sorry, I just had to say it. LOL!

I have seen that fracture on alot of fieros.Even the lowly 4cyl auto's.
I think it must be the seam sealer gets brittle due to age,like everything else on the fiero.Just cracks eventually instead of flexing...If you don't have any rust amywhere,I would'nt sweat it
my .02

Suspension could possible wear out unevenly. Rust, ... that is a definite no.
The spot welds what we were thinking. Plus an addional gusset to add a little support.

.

... a V8 crammed in the trunk of a car that had trouble fitting a V6 ...

Now in my universe I don't see anything wrong with this LOL

Tina

I've seen this happen before.

The easiest way to remove the seam sealer is a wire wheel attachment on an angle grinder. Then you can weld that seam up and worry about it no longer!

My 88 with the L67 is starting to do that on the passenger side. I just noticed it last week.

my '84 did that on both sides, it wasn't in bad shape when i got it but i drove it in the winter and got rusty, i just stopped driving the car and sold it. i guess it just sits on the new owners lawn with a twisted frame.

------------------
Factory '87 GT 5-speed

Just my .02 (it's in Canadian funds so it's more like .016)

I'm coming to the end of my 350 install and have installed an electric water pump. I had to make a fair sized hole in the strut tower to fit the water pump. It doesn't look like it will affect anything but maybe it is???

Does your car have a hole in the passenger strut tower?

is it possible that wreck you had stressed the chassis?

You should get the wheels up in the air and give it a shakedown. See if you feel any looseness side to side or up and down in each wheel. I had an 86GT that had a, just odd, not bad, feeling whenever I got on it (it kinda side stepped) turned out the lower ball joint bolt on the rear drivers side worked itself out.

I did a test this year to see how much strength the dog bone mount adds to the passenger side. I had a parts car with a rusty frame which I was cutting up to scrap. I cut the upper and lower frame rails where they attached to the firewall to separate it from the rest of the frame. I removed the steel bumper and cut out the trunk and part of the frame which connects the upper frame rails behind the taillights. Basically what I had left was upper and lower frame rails with the sheet metal and strut towers which connected them and the main structural member between the two strut towers.

I positioned this contraption onto my work bench with the drivers side clamped down to the table and the passenger side facing up. I then took a large pull scale and attached it to the passenger side of the frame. At 100 lbs of pull force I was deflecting the frame ~6" at the load point and at 250 lbs I popped a spot weld which almost folded it over.

I then flipped the frame over and tested the opposite side. At 250 lbs I was experiencing about 3" of deflection. I was the only one around to apply the force so from there I had to get creative. I attached a long pipe to the frame to double the moment arm thus the 250 lbs of force I could exert was effectively 500 lbs at the load point. This resulted in 4-5" of deflection. I then ditched the pull scale and really went at it. Mounted at a 45* angle with one end on the ground and other clamped to the workbench and with a jack handle now sticking out of the pipe I had some serious leverage on my side. With my entire weight hanging on the end of the jack handle I was probably able to deflect it the same 6" as the other side did at only 100lbs. No matter how hard I yanked though I was not able fail a weld joint or permanently deform the structure. I then made a cut with my sazall through the dogbone mount and a significant amount of strength was lost as it started to behave the same as the other side.

The reason I preformed this test was because I have started noticing that Fieros which are heavily autocrossed or have been launched hard more than a few times start to show separation at that joint. I first noticed this on my car and a friends autocross car several years ago. I then set out at the 20th anniversary show to see how many cars I could find with this separation. I didn't find a single 4-cyl car or many stock V6 cars with this condition and those which I did the owners admitted to driving the cars hard either at the dragstrip or autocross. I didn't keep an official count but somewhere between 2-3 dozen Fieros with engine swaps had the separation and again the owners admitted to some sort of hard driving.

What I plan on doing with my own cars is to bend a piece of sheet metal to replicate the dogbone mount on the drivers side and cutout and reapply the seam sealer. My main reason for wanting to do this is to balance out the strength of the frame between sides and to prevent future separation which will allow water to penetrate to bare metal and start rusting from within.

Interesting test - you must have been bored, huh? ;-)

Well, Tina, I have a couple of suggestions. Someone already suggested jacking it up & having a thorough investigation of the suspension. It's good advice. I'd also add to that by suggesting that when the Fiero is at rest with all four wheels on the ground, try pushing it sideways (might need a big heavy dude for this if you can't get enough push). Look to see how much flex (if any) exists in the strut towers when you push the rear sideways. Also keep your ears tuned for any unusual noises. A "normal" car will be difficult to push sideways, and will have very little "give." It will also make no noise, and the most flex should be from the tires. However, I notice you have a strut brace installed, so flex in your towers should be minimal, unless something is really wrong a little lower.

My V8-powered Fiero is all fine & dandy when I get on it - it's when I back off on the acceleration where things don't seem "right." I've been too lazy to investigate, but I expect to find a couple of worn suspension pieces, perhaps a tie-rod, too. Also know I need an alignment, which isn't helping matters. It's bad when I can take off ramps in my Crown Vic at 140kph, and if I did the same in my Fiero I'd be in a ditch. Fieros....always work in progress. ;-)

Thats a very nice conversion you have--very nice. I`d check the suspension parts also, the force/torque tends to where these parts out a little quicker . Torque also has a away of throwing things off just a hair when driving...

quote Indyellowgt said: I have seen that fracture on alot of fieros. Even the lowly 4cyl auto's. I think it must be the seam sealer gets brittle due to age, like everything else on the fiero. Just cracks eventually instead of flexing...

My thoughts exactly. My '87 SE (which was originally 4cyl / auto) is exhibiting those symptoms. Although, I do have to admit that I "drive it like I stole it" pretty frequently. But I also notice that on almost every Fiero I see.

That said, some reinforcement between the strut towers and the trunk wall can't hurt. I guess Jeffrysuko's little experiment proved that.

quote Originally posted by Jefrysuko: I did a test this year to see how much strength the dog bone mount adds to the passenger side. I had a parts car with a rusty frame which I was cutting up to scrap. I cut the upper and lower frame rails where they attached to the firewall to separate it from the rest of the frame. I removed the steel bumper and cut out the trunk and part of the frame which connects the upper frame rails behind the taillights. Basically what I had left was upper and lower frame rails with the sheet metal and strut towers which connected them and the main structural member between the two strut towers. I positioned this contraption onto my work bench with the drivers side clamped down to the table and the passenger side facing up. I then took a large pull scale and attached it to the passenger side of the frame. At 100 lbs of pull force I was deflecting the frame ~6" at the load point and at 250 lbs I popped a spot weld which almost folded it over. I then flipped the frame over and tested the opposite side. At 250 lbs I was experiencing about 3" of deflection. I was the only one around to apply the force so from there I had to get creative. I attached a long pipe to the frame to double the moment arm thus the 250 lbs of force I could exert was effectively 500 lbs at the load point. This resulted in 4-5" of deflection. I then ditched the pull scale and really went at it. Mounted at a 45* angle with one end on the ground and other clamped to the workbench and with a jack handle now sticking out of the pipe I had some serious leverage on my side. With my entire weight hanging on the end of the jack handle I was probably able to deflect it the same 6" as the other side did at only 100lbs. No matter how hard I yanked though I was not able fail a weld joint or permanently deform the structure. I then made a cut with my sazall through the dogbone mount and a significant amount of strength was lost as it started to behave the same as the other side. The reason I preformed this test was because I have started noticing that Fieros which are heavily autocrossed or have been launched hard more than a few times start to show separation at that joint. I first noticed this on my car and a friends autocross car several years ago. I then set out at the 20th anniversary show to see how many cars I could find with this separation. I didn't find a single 4-cyl car or many stock V6 cars with this condition and those which I did the owners admitted to driving the cars hard either at the dragstrip or autocross. I didn't keep an official count but somewhere between 2-3 dozen Fieros with engine swaps had the separation and again the owners admitted to some sort of hard driving. What I plan on doing with my own cars is to bend a piece of sheet metal to replicate the dogbone mount on the drivers side and cutout and reapply the seam sealer. My main reason for wanting to do this is to balance out the strength of the frame between sides and to prevent future separation which will allow water to penetrate to bare metal and start rusting from within.

fascinating.. maybe i'll weld in a permanent strut tower x-brace next time i have the engine out.

https://images.fiero.nl/pffimages2/misc_1593.jpg

Above is not a very good pic, but if you look closely you can see where I welded a 1/8" triangular shaped piece of flat steel into this area aon both strut towers. Admittedly the application is completely different. But the thickness of the strut tower steel is almost identical, and you can mig weld onto it very easily. The steel of the trunk wall is thinner, but doubled, and if you don't get too carried away, it welds fine, as well. Looks like putting these gussets into a v8 packing Fiero might be a good idea.

David Breeze

------------------

Pantera Rebody Kits

quote Originally posted by Kohburn: fascinating.. maybe i'll weld in a permanent strut tower x-brace next time i have the engine out.

What he said.

quote Originally posted by Tina: Maybe I didn't pay close enough attention, or plain didn't notice it, but yes under hard acceleration/ putting your foot in it. It feels ....weird/different. Not both sides, just one.Not like night and day, but off. Now I am analyzing everything. More squeaks on one side than the other. Punch line ... there appears to be a hairline tear in the flexible material around the driver side strut tower. Phil, a while back mentioned about a strut tower letting go. Forgot the details on why and how, though. Anybody else?

You're buddy at the CTHC at Archie's mentioned the same thing to me. Here's what he did (from the CHTC thread)

Attention to detail:

I had a chance to chit-chat with Chuck at the CTCH. What caught my eyes was the detail above the strut towers. I asked about it and he had the area welded over and over again until the material reached a certan height which strenghtens the area and reduces flex plus it looks good if you're painting it. He mention that the rubbery material was a pain to remove.

motortv's turbo LT1:

Reporting back in.
At the moment I am on such a sugar high from all the candy, I swear I could outrun the Fiero.
O.K., o.k., maybe not the V-8. The 4 cylinder though for sure. As long as I get to power up with a few more
Snickers, 3 Musketeers and M&M's beforehand.

Alright, the suspension checks out. Nothing even a little off.
The accident a while back came to mind too. Other side though, and the majority of the damage
was in front of the rear wheel.
Electric water pump, ...too small a hole. Plus it is on the other side too. Tear is only visible on the driver side.

Jefrysuko, appreciate you sharing your results.
Cleaning out this gunk, strengthen/add welds, and adding a gusset/reinforcement in the area seems to be the way to go.
I leave that up to the experts though, I know just enough about welding to be dangerous.

BTW Say opm2000. Great job on the welding there. But, by any chance did you notice that engine of yours is pointing the wrong way?


Thanks for helping me sort this out guys
Tina

Going to add a pipe across my strut towers next year when I change the clutch.

Not like this but its an option


http://www.cardomain.com/ride/2433829

[This message has been edited by Jake_Dragon (edited 11-01-2006).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tina:

Alright, the suspension checks out. Nothing even a little off.
Tear is only visible on the driver side.

[QUOTE]

Is it a "Sealer" tear, or can you clearly see the sheet metal ripped???

A bad "Strut" (seals shot inside) will cause the same weird feeling in the back end when accelerating.

quote Originally posted by Tina: Jefrysuko, appreciate you sharing your results. Cleaning out this gunk, strengthen/add welds, and adding a gusset/reinforcement in the area seems to be the way to go. I leave that up to the experts though, I know just enough about welding to be dangerous.

You’re very welcome. I have wanted to add a gusset to one of my cars and share that with the forum but it is far down on the list as of now. I just wish that I would have taken some pictures of the test but obviously I wasn't thinking.

got a better pic of what everyone is talking about, Tina's pic has been replaced with a different one it seems

quote

Methinks your engine is sorta pointed the wrong way

I noticed the original pic had changed too.

------------------
Dave E

www.ltlfrari.com

quote Originally posted by ltlfrari: Methinks your engine is sorta pointed the wrong way I noticed the original pic had changed too.

looks right to me, pulleys towards the cabin, putting the transmission behind the motor, you know mid-engine

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PROJECT 1986 GT Stormbringer

I'm not familiar with Tina's car but if it does have a V8 and is still transverse isn't torque steer still a possibility due to unequal length drive shafts?

quote Originally posted by Scurvy: I'm not familiar with Tina's car but if it does have a V8 and is still transverse isn't torque steer still a possibility due to unequal length drive shafts?

I'm going to say no, because the wheels do not change angle. I don't think torque steer depends on axle length; I think it is due to angle changes combined with unequal wieght distribution and torque bias of the differential. Even a lot of solid axle vehicles have one axle shaft that's longer than the other (maybe not to the extent of the Fiero) and they do not exhibit torque steer.

But I could be wrong.

------------------
86 Fiero GT
-Stage eleventy billion...(pieces, that is!)

04 Mustang "Terminator" Cobra
-K&N FIPK
-DiabloSport Performance Tune
-MGW T-56 Shifter

quote Originally posted by Hulk: I'm going to say no, because the wheels do not change angle.

they do on the fiero if the suspension is worn, or if it still has rubber bushings (not so much on the 88's)
due to it being a FWD setup and using tie rods it is prone to torque stear caused by acceleration and braking

What the ... anybody missing a passenger seat ?
I think we got a straggler here.

[This message has been edited by Tina (edited 11-02-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Tina: What the ... anybody missing a passenger seat ? I think we got a straggler here.

Why did you post a picture of your dyno?

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Why did you post a picture of your dyno?

That's where her hubby is allowed to park his dyno.

Now this is Tina's Dyno!

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: Why did you post a picture of your dyno?

Dyno? I thought it was a pic of a Fiero seat that had replaced the pic of a strut tower.
Anybody wanna fill me in on what the (beep) is going on ?

Tina
Jefrysuko, that pic of yours doesn't exactly look like a dyno either.
You don't by any chance use the same image host as I do. Do you?

I was thinking seat of the pants dyno

isthiswhereyouputyourname or Jason upgraded the image server and some of the pictures got mixed up. If you upload your picture again it will show up correctly.