Ok, I thought I had it fixed but I found out better today !!
I replaced the fan temp switch and the thermostat with a 195 deg yesterday and it all worked fine.
Took it for a drive today and it started overheating again and once again the fan was not running. grounded the wire on the fan temp switch and the fan runs. I can't believe I got a bad switch, but who knows. Or maybe something is shorting the switch out....
Tried removing the cap where the thermostat is while the motor was running and water shoots out, is
this normal.
I was told you are to use the 2.8 water pump on the 3.4 is this correct ? I double checked to make sure I have the right pump.
Never had a temp. problem before the swap.

Any suggestions are definately is welcomed !!

On the bright side I did get the fuel pressure issue I was having also solved.
But this overheating has me baffled , overheats fairly quick ... I just don't get it

Overheating quickly is usually a sign of an air bubble, thermostat or bad pressure cap? Have you checked all that?

What was causing your fuel pressure issue?

------------------

quote Originally posted by Zoom88: ...grounded the wire on the fan temp switch and the fan runs. I can't believe I got a bad switch, but who knows.

Grounding that wire tests out everything except the switch.
The only reasons I can think of are
A. The switch is bad.
B. The switch is not getting a ground through the manifold. Some people say that teflon tape will stop it from working. I sealed mine with pipe joint compound.
C. If there's no water getting to the bottom of the switch. (Air bubble.)

quote Tried removing the cap where the thermostat is while the motor was running and water shoots out, is this normal.

Every V6 Fiero I've ever seen will do this.

quote I was told you are to use the 2.8 water pump on the 3.4 is this correct ? I double checked to make sure I have the right pump. Never had a temp. problem before the swap.

You need the 2.8 pump as well as the 2.8 timing cover. I can't imagine how you would have gotten that wrong. The 3.4 pump is configured all bass-ackwards from the 2.8. It won't fit on the timing cover at all.

You might still have air in the system.
To fill the system, try this...

This is a little bit different form the "normal" procedure that most folks use, but it even worked for my 4.9, and those are supposed to be really ugly to get all the air out of.

Put the thermostat cap on. Raise the front of the car as high as you can. Remove the radiator cap.
Pour coolant in until it won't hold any more. Let it sit for a few minutes to see if it will leak down. if it does, top it off again. Put the cap on.
Raise the back of the car. A floor jack and jackstands will do. Remove the thermostat cap. Fill it until it won't hold any more. Put the cap on.
Start the engine and let it run for about 10 seconds, then shut it off. Remove the cap and top it off again. Put the cap back on and start it again, for about 10 seconds. Repeat until it won't hold any more coolant.
Take the car for a drive. Let it cool down. Open the thermostat housing and top it off again. Reinstall the thermostat and cap.
You should be good.

Question... How did you break in your cam with all of the low fuel pressure and overheating stuff going on?
(From memory) It's supposed to be run for 15 minutes or so at ~2500 RPM.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-19-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: You need the 2.8 pump as well as the 2.8 timing cover. I can't imagine how you would have gotten that wrong. The 3.4 pump is configured all bass-ackwards from the 2.8. It won't fit on the timing cover at all. You might still have air in the system. To fill the system, try this... This is a little bit different form the "normal" procedure that most folks use, but it even worked for my 4.9, and those are supposed to be really ugly to get all the air out of. Put the thermostat cap on. Raise the front of the car as high as you can. Remove the radiator cap. Pour coolant in until it won't hold any more. Let it sit for a few minutes to see if it will leak down. if it does, top it off again. Put the cap on. Raise the back of the car. A floor jack and jackstands will do. Remove the thermostat cap. Fill it until it won't hold any more. Put the cap on. Start the engine and let it run for about 10 seconds, then shut it off. Remove the cap and top it off again. Put the cap back on and start it again, for about 10 seconds. Repeat until it won't hold any more coolant. Take the car for a drive. Let it cool down. Open the thermostat housing and top it off again. Reinstall the thermostat and cap. You should be good. Question... How did you break in your cam with all of the low fuel pressure and overheating stuff going on? (From memory) It's supposed to be run for 15 minutes or so at ~2500 RPM.

I appreciate all the info. from everyone ! And Radar I'll give your method a try .
I was able to break in the cam , it takes it awhile to start overheating if your not actually trying to drive it. (still higher than normal)
Then I remembered if you turn on the A/C the fan will stay running (Don't have a A/C compressor on the car at this time) But everything else is still there.
It started up great. Took me about 10 minutes to get it to start and get it timed and idling right.

This is what I went by for breaki-n

7. Fire up the engine and bring the engine to a fast idle between 1500 and 3000 RPM. Do not worry about getting the ignition timing set perfectly at this time. Get the engine running fairly smoothly and vary the engine speed from 1500-3000 RPM in a slow, to moderate, acceleration/deceleration cycle. During this time, be sure to check for any leaks and check out any unusual noises. If something doesn’t sound right, shut the engine off and check out the source of the noise. Upon restart, resume the high idle speed cycling. Continue the varying “break-in” speed for 20-30 minutes. This is necessary to provide proper lifter rotation to properly mate the lifter to the lobe.

8. Let the engine cool, and then drain the crankcase and properly dispose of the oil filter. Refill the crankcase with the proper viscosity and API service index recommended by the engine manufacturer. This should be a mineral oil not a synthetic oil.

At this point the initial “break-in” is complete. You can drive the vehicle in your normal manner avoid prolonged idling. We recommend changing the oil and filter after 500 miles. We strongly recommend mineral oils with flat tappet camshafts to help assure proper lifter rotation.. You might want to put another 5000 miles on the cam before switching to synthetic if that is your preference.

I have a tool that pulls vacuum in the coolant system then I put a clear tube in a bottle of coolant and vacuum pulls coolant into every sq. in. of the system, it worded on a LT1 FireBird and I heard those are a sumbit## to bleed. Other than that I use a remote fan switch to run my fan, turns on at 185 Deg. but I think the original radiator probably needs replacing.

Try running it with out the thermo stat, see if it over heats as quickly, also in Archives some where, there should be post on drilling a hole in the thermo stat, I would double check your connector --as it sits down in there, to see if thats causing a problem, (good connection) I guess you could get a bad fan/rad switch, I got a couple wells ones that didn`t work. Tubes & hoses all ok ??

quote Originally posted by 3800superfast: Try running it with out the thermo stat, see if it over heats as quickly, also in Archives some where, there should be post on drilling a hole in the thermo stat, I would double check your connector --as it sits down in there, to see if thats causing a problem, (good connection) I guess you could get a bad fan/rad switch, I got a couple wells ones that didn`t work. Tubes & hoses all ok ??

I drill all of my stats now, just enough to let the air bubble out if there is any. It keep the stat from locking up, I think that is what went wrong with my 2.8
Do not drill a large hole, 1/16 should be fine. I had several stats that would suck the O ring off untill I started drilling them.

quote Originally posted by 3800superfast: Try running it with out the thermo stat, see if it over heats as quickly, also in Archives some where, there should be post on drilling a hole in the thermo stat, I would double check your connector --as it sits down in there, to see if thats causing a problem, (good connection) I guess you could get a bad fan/rad switch, I got a couple wells ones that didn`t work. Tubes & hoses all ok ??

quote Originally posted by Jake_Dragon: I drill all of my stats now, just enough to let the air bubble out if there is any. It keep the stat from locking up, I think that is what went wrong with my 2.8 Do not drill a large hole, 1/16 should be fine. I had several stats that would suck the O ring off untill I started drilling them.

Haven't heard of doing that .... where do you drill the hole ?
I believe I have the problem fixed, I replaced the radiator cap and the coolant fan switch /sensor again and followed Raydars instructions on getting the air out.
.....it seems to be doing ok for now !!
Thanks for all the input, a lot of good info. !!!

quote Originally posted by Zoom88: Haven't heard of doing that .... where do you drill the hole ?

Anywhere in the stat to let air bleed off so it dosent sit under the stat, it takes longer for hot air to open a stat then water. You dont need a big hole, just enough to let keep an air pocket from forming under the stat, 1/32 to 1/16 should be more than enough. Anything bigger an it will cause your car to to take longer to warm up and go into closed loop.

quote Originally posted by Zoom88: .....it seems to be doing ok for now !!

Excellent!
I'm happy that it was nothing serious.

Thanks for the break-in tips, BTW.

I'm delaying my project for a short while.
I'm having a steel A-frame built so that I can hoist the car off of the cradle, and not have to screw around with floor jacks and cherry pickers. I do this stuff enough to make it worthwhile.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-20-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Excellent! I'm happy that it was nothing serious.

Ok, I talked to soon....can't figure this one out. The problem seems the fan is not coming on all the time, seems sometimes its working and other times its not.

I have changed all the sensors/switches , relay, thermostat.
The fan will come on when the A/C button is on and the motor stays within the temp range.
Without the A/C on the fan may or may not come on, we drove the car for several hours and everything was fine, then all of a sudden the temp started to rise I popped the hood and the fan was not running again ? Maybe I have short in the wire to the Fan switch/sensor...but everytime I have checked the wire by grounding it the fan has come on !! Anyway this has got me baffled !!
Maybe its something to do with the ECM, I know one of the sensors goes to it.
Any suggestions ?

[This message has been edited by Zoom88 (edited 07-24-2006).]

Have you tried grounding the Grn/Wht and/or Grn?Blk(2 speed fan) wire from your coolant switch on the engine to see if the fan will run everytime you do that. You mgiht have a relay or wire that is intermitent.
Dont think the ecm is involved at all.
What year?

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: Have you tried grounding the Grn/Wht and/or Grn?Blk(2 speed fan) wire from your coolant switch on the engine to see if the fan will run everytime you do that. You mgiht have a relay or wire that is intermitent. Dont think the ecm is involved at all. What year?

Yes I have as I mentioned above...but I may not have been clear on what I meant.

quote Originally posted by Zoom88: Maybe I have short in the wire to the Fan switch/sensor...but everytime I have checked the wire by grounding it the fan has come on !!

My car is an 88 Formula with a newly installed 3.4L

Thanks

What kind of temps are you seeing? Are you useing the Fiero stock gauge?
I'm just curious and not much help.
Thanks Gary
Bump

quote Originally posted by GKDINC: What kind of temps are you seeing? Are you useing the Fiero stock gauge? I'm just curious and not much help. Thanks Gary Bump

When it is cooling OK I am seeing right under 200 deg. this is with the 195 deg. thermostat
When it starts acting up (fan not coming on) it goes to right at the edge of the red zone on the stock gauge....
if I make the fan come on it will go back down to under 200 again.

Ok have to go wild here. How about this.

Get the engine and cooling system up to temp.
Locate all four rubber to cooling pipe hoses so you know where they are.
You should be able to reach them by reaching under the car.
Have someone run the throttle for you and as you feel each hose have them slowly run the rpms up to around 3500 rpm while you feel the hose.
What you are looking for is a soft hose that might be collapsing at a certain flow rate.

Think it is worth a try?

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: Ok have to go wild here. How about this. Get the engine and cooling system up to temp. Locate all four rubber to cooling pipe hoses so you know where they are. You should be able to reach them by reaching under the car. Have someone run the throttle for you and as you feel each hose have them slowly run the rpms up to around 3500 rpm while you feel the hose. What you are looking for is a soft hose that might be collapsing at a certain flow rate. Think it is worth a try?

Yes it sounds good and it might be worth checking out......but my problem is the coolant fan
is not coming on all the time when it is suppose to. When the temp gets high enough for the coolant temp switch to tell the fan to come on, sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't.

Sorry yes your right. OK then how about:
Jumper the fan switch on the engine so that the fan is running and then start wiggling wires from the front to the back and see if you touch one that causes the fan to stop. Should be able to do it with the engine off so that you will hear it quickly. It really sounds like to have a bad connection or wire somewhere..
Pay attention to the connector by the battery and move the loom behind the engine.

[This message has been edited by Dodgerunner (edited 07-24-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Dodgerunner: Sorry yes your right. OK then how about: Jumper the fan switch on the engine so that the fan is running and then start wiggling wires from the front to the back and see if you touch one that causes the fan to stop. Should be able to do it with the engine off so that you will hear it quickly. It really sounds like to have a bad connection or wire somewhere.. Pay attention to the connector by the battery and move the loom behind the engine.

Ok, at this point I am willing to try any and everything !!!!
Thanks for your continued interest in this problem and all your suggestions !!

Zoom88, What brand rad/fan switch did you use? Did you look in the connector (single green wire /wht stripe) for corrosion or a kink in that wire. Did it get all the way seated on the fan/rad switch, as it sits way down in there, is the coolant high enough in the engine to trip the switch, if you check up front by the fan --be carefull of that big red wire--its hot & packs some juice, may want to look around those connectors at the fan also, see if anyone cut into the loom in the front engine compartment , same color wire , they (previous owner) may have had a temp toggle switch and took it out leaving a bare wire --shorting to ground on you.

quote Originally posted by 3800superfast: Zoom88, What brand rad/fan switch did you use? Did you look in the connector (single green wire /wht stripe) for corrosion or a kink in that wire. Did it get all the way seated on the fan/rad switch, as it sits way down in there, is the coolant high enough in the engine to trip the switch, if you check up front by the fan --be carefull of that big red wire--its hot & packs some juice, may want to look around those connectors at the fan also, see if anyone cut into the loom in the front engine compartment , same color wire , they (previous owner) may have had a temp toggle switch and took it out leaving a bare wire --shorting to ground on you.

I have tried several brands, Wells, GP Sorensen, And I think the one it it now is a Borg-Warner. I just ordered the 185-195 deg one from Rodney
that I am going to use with a 180 deg. stat. I replaced the connector yesterday, I soldered the 2 ends together from the original Grn/wht wire to the one on the new connector and covered it with heat shrink. I will trace the wire as best I can...does the grn/wht wire run all the way to the fan? If so I can check it for continuity. Thanks for the input !!

I did look in the hole last time I pulled the switch and could see coolant....whether or not it is high enough I have no idea but it looks to be.

You might have a bad connection where the wire connects to the switch. Try wiggling the wire where it connects to the switch. It als might be making a bad connection where it connects into the car harness (C500 or the ECM connector inside the car. I don't know which.) Did you get rid of the teflon tape on the sensor?

Or there might still be air in the system, which would allow the switch to become uncovered. (Less likely.)
Does the temp needle "jump around" when it's cooling? Air pockets will tend to cause that, too.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-25-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Zoom88: does the grn/wht wire run all the way to the fan? If so I can check it for continuity. Thanks for the input !!.

If you look at the bottom of the front hood strut, you`ll see the wire loom there, (thats where I hard wire for constant fan) anyway follow it forward it should end up at the relays in front of the drivers side head lamp--if not pretty close--(have never gone that far to look) but pretty sure it does. You should be able to check for current there. According to Haynes manual --it does appear to make a stop at the C-500 block.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: You might have a bad connection where the wire connects to the switch. Try wiggling the wire where it connects to the switch. It als might be making a bad connection where it connects into the car harness (C500 or the ECM connector inside the car. I don't know which.) Did you get rid of the teflon tape on the sensor? Or there might still be air in the system, which would allow the switch to become uncovered. (Less likely.) Does the temp needle "jump around" when it's cooling? Air pockets will tend to cause that, too.

I replaced the connector and wire at the switch. When I installed the 3rd swtich I did not use any teflon. I did see the needle jumping around before I used your procedure for burping the system !! Hasn't been doing it since.
It does make since that if the switch wasn't in coolant all the time it would not read correctly.....I may try to bleed the system once more.

i couldnt get my fan to stop running all the time ,so i ran a new wire from the temp switch to the relay in the front of the car.it would have taken a month of sundays to find the short to ground and this solved my problem in about a half hour.finding your loose connection may take forever.run a new wire.

quote Originally posted by Zoom88: Ok, now...where is the C-500 block located ? With a little searching I found it...its in the engine compartment next to the battery !!

Make sure it's plugged in securely, and that none of the pins are bent or pushed back into the shell. A friend of mine had all of his right side lights and his cruise control to quit working, due to the other half of that plug (tail light harness) coming loose. Apparently the hex screw that threads into the base was stripped out.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 07-26-2006).]

quote Originally posted by wftb: i couldnt get my fan to stop running all the time ,so i ran a new wire from the temp switch to the relay in the front of the car.it would have taken a month of sundays to find the short to ground and this solved my problem in about a half hour.finding your loose connection may take forever.run a new wire.

If it gets anymore extensive--this is a pretty good idea above...Just need to hide it in the loom some where....

quote Originally posted by wftb: i couldnt get my fan to stop running all the time ,so i ran a new wire from the temp switch to the relay in the front of the car.it would have taken a month of sundays to find the short to ground and this solved my problem in about a half hour.finding your loose connection may take forever.run a new wire.

quote Originally posted by 3800superfast: If it gets anymore extensive--this is a pretty good idea above...Just need to hide it in the loom some where....

I agree it is a good idea, if I can’t resolve it soon I will give this a try. I am beginning to think however that maybe it could still have air pockets or a hose collapsing and then the coolant is possibly not getting to the switch at times. This would explain why it works sometimes and then sometimes not. What makes me lean towards this is like I have mentioned…everytime I have taken the wire loose and grounded it the fan has come on (and I must have done this a least a dozen times by now !!) I haven’t had time to look at it and probably won’t until this weekend . But I will keep all you all updated to how it goes.

Thanks again for the support !!

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Make sure it's plugged in securely, and that none of the pins are bent or pushed back into the shell. A friend of mine had all of his right side lights and his cruise control to quit working, due to the other half of that plug (tail light harness) coming loose. Apparently the hex screw that threads into the base was stripped out.

Yes, I definitely will check this with all the pulling and moving around of the wiring I did !! Thanks Radar for all your input.

I sure will be busy checking all these suggestions out !!!

One more thing to check, the needle should peg all the way , when the switch is grounded--along with the fan turning on...