My black 88GT has been slightly neglected in the past year as I have had it garaged since I moved....looking at it, it looks great, but under the night lights, the paint looks dull/swilry....the paint is about 3 years old and is in really great condition. I am looking at removing the swirls marks and restoring the wonderful finish that was there when it was repainted....

I have tested several methods....

1. Manual / hand applied swirl remover (3M). This made the paint a little shinier, but did nothing for the swirls.

2. Acquired a variable speed rotary polisher similar to the Dewalt/Makita, 3M polishing pads, 3M Swirl remover for dark colored cars, Glare polish and Glare Spider...Started with 3M swirl remover and polishing pad around 1000 RPM until buffed into paint...one coat of Glare spider at 1000 RPM followed by another by hand...let dry and removed with a Microfiber rag....followed by one coat of Glare polish (distributed by Honda) at 1000RPM and another by hand.....

The second method really made the paint come to life....it is visibly much darker and deeper.....and he swirl marks appear to be mostly gone....BUT when looking at it close up with direct light, there are still tons of swirl marks....almost as if the polisher produced more marks....WTF!

Questions:

Do I have to top coat this in order to mask the remaining swirl marks?

Do I have to get more aggressive with a compound?

Is there something I may be doing that is introducing more swirl marks into the paint?

Am I using the correct stuff to accomplish what I am trying to do?

Can you really ever get a true swirl free finish on a black car?

Any help from you "painting gurus" out there would be helpful.....

http://autopia.org/
Everything you need o know about detailing, be sure to download the E-book.

Yes, you can get a swirl-free finish with black.

The manual hand method will take you forever.

The variable speed buffer/polisher is the way to go, and it sounds like you have the right stuff. The paint does look darker when the swirls are removed because you are no longer seeing the imperfections in the topcoat, and that's the way it's supposed to come out. What you might be doing is actually scratching the paint a bit with the buffing pad if the compounds you are using start to build up on the pad. Just make sure that the pad is clean while you are polishing. If you are noticing a bit of scratching/swirling after polishing, you might have to wet sand a bit first to remove those scratches and then buff and polish again. Washing a car with a sponge with just a little piece of dirt on it can scratch, and if you swirl your sponge on the car you little scratches look like swirl marks.

Just for comparison, I use 3M Perfect-it series of rubbing/polishing compounds. I use a rubbing compound, then Machine Glaze, then a microfinishing compound, then after that Imperial Hand Glaze. Each of the compounds has it's own pad, except the hand glaze which is hand applied. That really sets it off. But, if you plan on waxing it, you can wax instead of using the hand glaze. I'm a McGuires fan, myself.

The compounds you are using do seem to be a good quality, it's just a matter of getting rid of the scratches in the finish. If you do need to start over with wet-sanding, use 2000-3000 grit paper and lots of water, then polish it up again.

Good luck.

Mark

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Black sucks to try and keep looking good. I have spent hours with my detail guy buffing and polishing the two black cars I have. But when they shine they are tough to beat.

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Signature courtesy of MinnGreen.

Polish it with 3M Perfect It and a FOAM buffer pad. You will be amazed at the differance, night and day.

quote Originally posted by Electrathon: Polish it with 3M Perfect It and a FOAM buffer pad. You will be amazed at the differance, night and day.

What Electrathon said, and get your hands on a DA type polisher if you can, one that not only spins in a circle, but spins off center, like a DA sander does. Problem solved.

kevin

I am using 3M Perfect it Swirl Remover for dark cars and a 2725 3M Foam polishing pad....it does not take out the swirls. I brought the car into the light this afternoon and it looks awesome....but shine a light on it and you can see swirl marks all over the place....I may try going a step up and do the compounding route using 3M Perfect it III rubbing compound and then going back down to the polishing....I just don't want to screw it up!!!

quote Originally posted by Cplensdorf: I just don't want to screw it up!!!

You can buff to your hearts content untill you go through, then it is too late.

If the scratches are deep ypu may have a lot of cutting to do to get past them. Sometimes it is a risk to try getting everything out. Especially if someone has done it before. Sometimes if you are cutting a lot off mineral pads work well. Definatly a way to get carried away though.

When you stare directly at your finish look at the sun or light (if inside) you may be using, the sun is best, now focus on the sun reflecting in the finish---not the shine--find the sun in your finish--ok now look around the sun--you will see tiny circles that form a perfect wiggle circle, then they get larger and larger--they look allmost like a spiders-web ---correct ??? Thats factory webbing. Iv`e been at this for over 3 decades, you can compound until the cows come home or burn threw the clear as mentioned above, with all kind of products , I own a 88Gt 3800sc* BLACK* by the way, and the only way to get out factory webbing with out killing your-self in labor or your finish is to wet-sand with 2000 grit, then come back and compound-- Duzall from PRO-Bufford is good and you can get it online, if not pm me I can get it for you, follow the compound with # 9 MeGuires Swirl Remover, then # 3 or # 7 Hand or Machine Glaze by MeGuires, then top it off with # 26 High Tech by Meguires---no I don`t work for Meguires. Use foam pads only, keep them clean, keep your speed down--, remember you got rid of the biggest part of the webbing when you sanded , watch corners, edges and so on the paint is thinner there. Do one section at a time & take your time. After its nice and shiney and you hurt all over---remember to never let the car leave your garage again...lol....Seriously if you need help let me know...also everyone has their own ways/methods of doing things, some insist their way is correct or the only way to do it, I`m not posting that here, its one of the reasons I have stayed out of the paint/detail posts. And thats what I do for a living. I own a Detail/Light paint shop. Hope this helps some..........

On my 86 SE it has some recently painted parts and original painted parts. In order to remove swirls and make all the paint look the same shine between the newer paint and the original paint I use the Meguire's 3-step system. First you go over the car with the Deep Crystal System Paint Cleaner.
Then go over the car with Deep Crystal System Polish. Then protect the finish with Deep Crystal System Carnauba Wax.
It will give the paint a "wet" look with no swirl's. The swirlless shine will last about 3-4 washings then you'll need to wax it again.

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Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.
ZZ4 Powered !!

One thing I forgot to mention is that this is a repaint...it was painted by a Roush painter in MI....It was absolutely gorgeous when it was new....it still lokks great, but I am dissapointed with the nighttime look....the vehicle has seen no other aggressive treatment than cleaner and wax....all done by hand up to this point....in fact the car has probably only got 1000 miles on it since the paint job.....

3800 - where are you in OH? Maybe I could drop the car off with you for a week and just have you do your magic? What would it cost?

Way back when we used lacquer paint, the way we eliminated swirls after using rubbing compound was to buff the paint with cornstarch.

I use Meguiars with a hand held polisher followed by hand polishing.

The foam pads are superior for high shine. The reason I know is that I do custom guitar finishes. The foam pads have proved themselves for a fine finish where the user is looking up close all the time.

I use the Meguiar's 3 step in the red containers. If the fine scratches are a bit too deep, I get out the Meguiars #9 in the beige bottle.

BTW, what Meguiars claims is true. You can use it and then paint or lacquer right over it. The marvel of polymers.

Arn

quote Originally posted by Cplensdorf: 3800 - Can you explain the purpose of the glaze....I am a little unclear why a glaze s necessary if after the polishing, all of the marks are gone....I can not find any explanation for this....and I own a bottle of 3M hand glaze, too!

Glaze has a small amount of mild cleaners in it--its like a polish --except it cleans and fills the little swirl marks and fine sratches using more feeder oils & product . Most good Glazes use mineral oil as a base, this leaves a real nice sheen --but doesn`t last unless you follow it with a good sealer or wax. Hand glazes are also popular with Detail & some Body Shops, as they can hide a multitude of imperfections. I personally machine/buff the glazes into the finish until there is allmost no product/residue left, this assures it will take care of what it was intended to do, also a glaze leaves a deeper wetter looking sheen to your finish --the wet look Meguires talks about so much. Polishes tend to have more cleaners in them & cleaners and some cheaper waxes on the market leave white residue and can stain your trim, vinyl and so on. The reason # 9 doesnt cause this as much, is the base of it is mineral oil, thats why its prefered along with the fact that it is paintable (body shop safe) --but back to a comparison between a glaze and a polish, the glaze will leave the finish very wet looking over what a polish can do (especially solid colored/darker cars). 3M makes great products--they tend to get a little pricey and confusing as they change their product lines often--kinda like how GM changes their part #`s every 6 months or so. There are usually 2 good products you can get hold of at the local stores and I recomend them to my customers--MeGuires & Mothers... The reason being is we get our product from the wagon drivers (distributors) that don`t sell retail and are geared for what we do. If your going to use MeGuires --buy the tan bottles--its double the product, double the price--but 1/2 the work and double the results. If you really looking to get into Detailing & maintaining your car, there are really great professional products out there. 3M , Pro-Bufford, Production, Malco-Pro, Auto Chem, Mark V, Kardol, Car-Craft, Blue Ribbon , ect , ect. The ones you want to stay away from ==are the miracal products you see on TV, ---Turtle Wax, Nu-Finish, Zep/Zip wax, ect, ect. We took Nu-Finish apart in the lab--its around 67% Kerrosene, yep the same stuff your burn on your space heaters--open a bottle and smell it --the first thing that will come to mind is your space heater. They buy up bulk harsh distalete & mix with cheap pre-mixed solutions. Sorry to the Zymol guys--its owned & produced by Johnson & Johnson====the Turtle wax guys. That was a scam from day one . They spent a small fortume on marketing--made it smell pretty and look good, then added some crazy story about how it was around in the days of the horse and buggy, and through all this , someone mixed bananas & nut meg toghter to polish their carriage---and Booomm Zymol was born... I mean think about their product list--Zymol for Volvos and Zymol for Saabs--to name a couple---who & what market do you think they where trying to go after there??? When looking for good products for your cars finish and not sure--ask the hands on guys--they know what works the best, not consumers-guide or some editor/author in your car mags that have ran out of things to write about--so they decide to make a few inquires & calls, then write an articale based on 5 minutes of phone work... Hope this helps some........

Cplensdorf, I`m in Dayton,Ohio swing by I`m fair--I like to barter services--what do you do??

Tom Piantanida, Yep I remember using compound , corn starch & putting it on with wet cotton balls , to eleminate swirls in the older lacquer finishes.

3800 - thanks for the info, again....you seem to be a wealth of knowledge on this subject...

I went back out and messed around a little last night and tried a little compound (tan bottle fine cut) and it appears to create the same swirl I am talking about....then followed it with polish (3m swirl remover) and the Glare spider...it looks great, BUT the swirls are still there and I can see some hazing/milkiness in the color when I shine a light on it....these lines appear to be more from washing then from the compund though, as the are long sweeping lines like a washing mit going across the paint....the swirls from the compounding are removed from the swirl remover.....

The thing that sucks is that I have another GT rear clip that I tested some things on and my tests produced perfect results on it----it is RED, though.....no swirls, etc....

quote Originally posted by Cplensdorf: 3800 - thanks for the info, again....you seem to be a wealth of knowledge on this subject... I went back out and messed around a little last night and tried a little compound (tan bottle fine cut) and it appears to create the same swirl I am talking about....then followed it with polish (3m swirl remover) and the Glare spider...it looks great, BUT the swirls are still there and I can see some hazing/milkiness in the color when I shine a light on it....these lines appear to be more from washing then from the compund though, as the are long sweeping lines like a washing mit going across the paint....the swirls from the compounding are removed from the swirl remover..... The thing that sucks is that I have another GT rear clip that I tested some things on and my tests produced perfect results on it----it is RED, though.....no swirls, etc....

Ok , You used # 2 fine-cut cleaner, they may have re-numbered it by now, if your going to go after all the swirls, scratches imperfections, you may have to move over to a more aggresive compound , like Duzall from Pro-Bufford--it is silconic and has alot of feeder oils in it to help prevent burn through--by the way when you compound --its supposed to make it look dull & milky, your going down into the clear coat after the imperfections.The swirl remover & glaze will take care of the milky look--as your feeding a dry finish left by the compounding. Your probally going to have to machine at this point, its either that or wet/sand. When compounding your after the deeper stuff & on a black finish its going to look that way afterwards,-----its the bringing it back that counts here. When you compound you are taking larger scratches, swirls, imperfections and making tiny micro-millions of scratches out of them, thats how we get out larger scratches, larger scratches usually don`t come out--but by compounding them and you create micro millions of them ---which you can get out--hope this makes sense--its easier to turn bigger imperfections into smaller imperfections--which in turn --are easier to get out. When you say some re-appear again--its happening after you polish/feed it back ---(or feed your dry finish again) which means you didn`t go in the clear far enough to get them. Please be carefull here---ok try a 2x2 section with a more agressive silconic compound--don`t try to kill the whole thing in one shot--then come back with a cleaner/polish like # 9, then # 7 glaze, here a little trick, do it more than once, if the imperfections still appear, you can either re-try the compound again--feel your finish, if it starts t get hot--let it cool. Then re-try. Have you ever wet-sanded before ??? If a few really good compoundings & glazes won`t grab it, we may have to talk you through wet sanding. It isn`t as bad as it sounds--just tedious as he!! . If you want to re-try compounding again, then swirl remove then glaze let me know or post results again--like Firefox said above, wet-sanding may be in order here, then compound , swirl remover, then glaze. The long sweeping your seeing migh be from the painter using a wool pad. In this case , wet sanding will be the next route.. Let me know which route you want to go. Look in your yellow pages under Detailing , then under distributors, see what products you can get your hands on--also your local paint store carries alot of them , most however might end up 3M products, but thats ok--see if you can wangle some Pro-Bufford products, mainly their Duzall compound...

You have been given great info above. 3M Finish-it, 3M Perfect-it, use of clean foam pads, and finally Meguiar's products = swirl free happy finishes.

Gary

Well, I went out in search of some more 3M stuff and I am just pissed trying to understand their naming conventions....Perfect it III, Perfect it II, Perfect it 3000, polishing glaze for dark cars, machine glaze, hand glaze for DA, etc.....ARGH!!! I went ahead and went into the Mequiars stuff, since the numbering sytem clearly shows the aggressiveness of the compound/polish, etc. I am going to go ahead and try compounding out the panel again and see what happens...I will take some pics and try to post what is is that I am talking about....it might make more sense.....thanks for all of your assistance so far....

quote Originally posted by Cplensdorf: 3800 - one more question.... How fast am I supposed to be moving the wheel? I am moving it relatively slow...say 6 inches in 3 seconds or so....should it be slower or faster? I don't think I am going too slow, because I do not think that I am introducing more swirls, just not getting the ones I want out....

What type of buffer are you using again ?? What speeds are on the buffer. The foam pad should be slightly tilted and running it in a 2x2 section should be fine, depending on which product your using and what all your trying to get out will determine the sweep your using, compounding:--you should not hold alot of pressure on any point for any lenght of time. Glazes & Polishes you can longer --as they are loaded with feeder oils, just use a general sweeping motion and watch what your product is doing, if its running thin fast, your sweeps are to long, you want to move faster then 6 inches in 3 seconds---your looking for a smooth back-n-forth sweeping motion --then repetatitive--over that same section. EX: If your compounding a 2 x 2 section, the finish will start to look dull, if look real close, you can still see the tiny shiney imperfections or deeper marks your going after--they will still be in the same scratchy shape they where before you started--but deeper & still have the shine to them, , this is where you want to consentrate you efforts---NOT just on those spots---BUT that whole area--until the shiney clear/scratches/marks are dull looking like the rest of that same section, this is where you need to be carefull---not to burn through your clear coat. After all the sparkley looking imperfections look kinda gray and dull, then come back over with your swirl remover, and look to see if the deeper scratches are out yet. Let me run this by you it may help some, your working on a tuff color, I think with some time and effort we can get you through this ok, heres something to think about, you may be a little hesitant and scared of burning through the paint, everyone is at some time or the other, the thing you have going for you is, you own a solid colored car (Black) if you are working on the hood (I`m hoping) and you burn through, you won`t have to paint anything but the hood, if it where a metalic color , you would have to paint the hood, both front fenders, and depending on the color probally the tops of the front 2 doors , in your case, all you have to match is the hood---one of the nicer reasons for owning a soild colored car, rough estimate in my neck of the woods for base clear ppg hood only 150.00---200.00 tops. Would probally be cheaper--just a ballpark. Remember until the scratches are gone with the compound and you can`t see them anymore, they are still there when you come back with the swirl remover or glaze. This is one of the reasons I learned to wet-sand when they came out with base clear years ago--seems like it is alot easier to sand out imperfections, than to try to keep compounding them, either way you still have to compound. If your working in a shop or garage , get floresent lights over you, it will show everything you need to get out, especially at night. Hope this helps some more, let me know how things are going, if you want to call for any reason Pm me.

quote Originally posted by Tom Piantanida: Way back when we used lacquer paint, the way we eliminated swirls after using rubbing compound was to buff the paint with cornstarch.

Oh no, you did'nt say lacquer !!! Around here if someone in a paint shop mentioned that word while a Dept Envir Protect person was on site the shop might get closed down. Shame on you and your from California..

ps: My 60 Pontiac has Lacquer paint. Shhhh.

OK ....I give up!!!! I feel very defeated at this point....I went down to a fine cut cleaner and 3M compounding pad....seems to remove the swirls, until I polish and then they return....I then went ahead and wet sanded with 2500 and lots o water....followed by Meguiars heavy cut cleaner #4, Meguiars fine cut cleaner, #2, Meguiars #9 twice and then then three times....followed that with Meguiars Machine Glaze #3.....all of this goes well, but the finish looks just as bad as it did!!!! WTF???

Where am I going wrong here? It seems no matter what I do the finish looks totally awesome in daylight but just sucks with LOTS of lines at night....it looks like I took it through a carwash like a hundred times...this just sucks, I am ready to take a key to the side of the car myself....

After spending serious time and more than a few bucks, I am ready to just cover the damn thing back up and let my 4.9 just sit in the garage...

The paint just seems so succeptible to scratching....I can run my hand across the paint and I see scratches...I am not sure that the "micro-fiber" cloths (meguiars) that I am using are helping at all....it seems like they just scratch the surface even more....I have even gone to great length to label each polishing/compound pad, applicator and towel to identify the compound/polish that is on it....and terry cloth just tears the surface up, even though that is what meguiars says to use.....

Here is what the original looks like looking at it from about three inched away with light directly on it....it looks like total crap, BUT in daylight you cannot see it at all....

and a shot from away a little with light directly on it....

..and another from a distance...

..and another from another angle....crap

[This message has been edited by Cplensdorf (edited 02-05-2006).]

OK..I am begeinning to wonder if I am introducing more swirls than I am correcting.....

3800 - exactly what pads should I be using for each step....I am currently using a 3M compound pad for the heavy and light cut compound (white waffle pad), a grey 3M polishing pad (2725, grey waffle pad) for the #9 swirls remover and the glaze....

I have marked the pads and am only using one pad for each product.....although, early on a may have used the foam pad with both the Glare products and the 3M swirl remover....

Also, what is the best method of cleaning these pads....I currently was them under a stream of water (no soap) and let air dry over night..should I be using anything else?

I also am using Meguiars micro-fiber cleaning clothes...these are my biggest concern....they seem to scratch especially with the bound edging....

do you suggest any other products?

Should I be washing the area after each step or just wiping it with a clean micro-fiber cloth? This is one thing I cannot find any info on anywhere?

[This message has been edited by Cplensdorf (edited 02-06-2006).]

quote Originally posted by Cplensdorf: OK..I am begeinning to wonder if I am introducing more swirls than I am correcting..... 3800 - exactly what pads should I be using for each step....I am currently using a 3M compound pad for the heavy and light cut compound (white waffle pad), a grey 3M polishing pad (2725, grey waffle pad) for the #9 swirls remover and the glaze.... I have marked the pads and am only using one pad for each product.....although, early on a may have used the foam pad with both the Glare products and the 3M swirl remover.... Also, what is the best method of cleaning these pads....I currently was them under a stream of water (no soap) and let air dry over night..should I be using anything else? I also am using Meguiars micro-fiber cleaning clothes...these are my biggest concern....they seem to scratch especially with the bound edging.... do you suggest any other products? Should I be washing the area after each step or just wiping it with a clean micro-fiber cloth? This is one thing I cannot find any info on anywhere?

Ok, Waffle pads for compound only... Smooth pads for polish ,glaze, swirl remover, waxes. Some of the scatches your seeing is the actuall over kill of the product===polish--glaze--wax, when all is done you can mist the car with cold water or Meguires quick detailer to set it. To keep pads clean , you can use a mild soap & luke warm water ---hair shampoo --make sure to rinse well, and spin off the excess with your buffer, then air dry the rest, yep I hate those micro fiber cloths, use (for everything ) 100 % cotton terry cloth---remember the tiles in your guest bath that has your intials on them ?? Not the intialed side--the other side --but both sides of your buffing cloth should feel & look like those. No need for washing after each application. Just buff away the residue.

3800 - Wow...it sounds like you have done this a time or two I cannot thank you enough for the assistance here....this is truely an art and I can attest that is takes some time to learn it all....I think things are coming along...I am past the point where I just wanted to bash the side in with a hammer.....you have kept me grounded.....I am going to pursue more of your suggestions and see how it goes....in the end, I think I will have an awesome finish....plus, its about 20 degrees here now and what the heck else do I have to do for two more months....

Well....a little update on my quest for the perfect black finish.....it now looks fabulous thanks to all of the assistance provided above.....just so you know, this is my process for the perfect swirl free finish:

Supplies/tools:

Variable speed polisher
3M grey waffle polishing pad
3M white foam polishing pad solid (no waffle)
Meguiars swirl remover
Glare Spider polish
Meguiars Carnuba wax
Foam applicator pads (one for each liquid)
Micro fiber cloths (3)

Process:

Started by washing panel individually to ensure no latent dust
Applied Swirl Remover to paint in small (2x2 area) with foam applicator (I learned that this prevents the splatter of polish all over the place - I learned this AFTER I got it everywhere)
With grey 3M pad, worked swirl remover into paint using fast broad strokes across area (I learned that I was really working too slow and way too methodical - a random pattern seemed to work best.
Wiped off excess with micrfiber
Repeat swirl if scratches still show under fluorescent light.
With foam pad, did same process with Glare as done with swirl remover.
Wiped off excess with micrfiber
Repeat glare
topped with wax....

Looks better than it ever did...thanx for all the help.

Now onto cleaning up the 4.9...