I have installed a rebuild V6 and a Fiero Store HD clutch kit in my 87 GT. The clutch hydraulic system was not opened (hung the slave cyl. with a wire). Clutch worked fine before reinstall. Now the pedal has very little resistance all the way down and the slave cyl rod moves about 3/4 inch but no (or very little) clutch disengagement. Before I take the engine back out, what else should I check? Already bled the hydraulic system with the Archie method.

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bleed, bleed and re-bleed

I don't know what the Archie method of bleeding the clutch is but unless you made a serious error on reassembly which I don't see happening, your problem is with the hydraulics. Not openning the system will not guarantee that you will not have to rebleed the system once you remove the pressure from the slave cylinder which is spring loaded and could possibly have caused air to be sucked in from behind the piston upon relieving the pressure.

I resently delt with my clutch system by replacing the slavecylinder and the mastercylinder at the same time. The boot on my slavecylinder was poor at best and dust and dirt contamination finally got to it though it would still work. If there is any condensation in the slavecylinder bore you probably should replace it unless you are sure it is harmless.

I just had my clutch done a week ago. Since picking it up I thought the pedal was a little soft, especially when I compare it to My GT. Clutch would engage almost immediately when letting off on the pedal. Now I have no pedal! I measured the slave cyl rod at 1/2". This could not be more frustrating after dumping $800. Help please!
Todd

It takes two people to do it right according to the GM method though I often do it alone using my club to hold the pedal down. Following the standard bleed proceedure after letting the system gravity bleed for a while. Have someone hold the clutch down, while you open the bleed screw, once the pressure is bled down, push the rod all the way back up into the slavecylinder forcing any remaining air that might be trapped in it out before closing the bleed screw, then continue with the bleed process. If the fluid in your clutch slave cylinder has changed to a dark color it needs to be replaced due to wear.

Take out the two 15mm head bolts that hold the slave bracket to the tranny.

With no more pressure than you can apply with one finger, press on the clutch.
If it moves, you still have air in the system.

Now leave the slave unbolted, and bleed it again (pick your method). Nice bonus is now you can tip the bleeder end right up.
When you can press gently on the peddle and it's rock hard - the air is gone for sure - no guessing.

Get all your tools and parts within reach - Put in the pushrod, compress it all into place (don't release it!) and slap in the "side to side" bolt until it's mostly just snug. Stick in the other one till it's snug, then tighten both.

Done that more times than I could even guess (100's?). It's fast, and removes any question of "did I get it".

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87/88 V6 5spd "FormulaGT" Turbo, 86 SE
My pages:
http://www.fieroclub.com
http://www.fierohut.com

If I had done anything wrong installing the clutch itself - what if anything would give me these symptoms (see above)?

If you take something and push on the clutch arm can you get it to disengage? On my slave the rod is too short and I have to make a new one. The clutch is farther away from the tranny and the throw out bearing has to move farther to disengage it.
With your slave bolted to the tranny is the slave at the beginning of its stroke? Push the arm towards the slave and see if it will compress the slave some more. It could just be that the clutch you have needs the starting point moved farther away from the slave "longer rod"

Well discussed in the past. When you have a new clutch the piston in the slave cylinder is closer to the front of the bore of the slave cylinder. As the clutch wears the piston recedes in the bore. That generally leaves some brake fluid on the wall of the slave cylinder which attracts moisture and promotes rust. When you install a new clutch the piston and seal ride over this rusty surface and that in turn ruins the seal. You should always install a new slave cylinder when you install a new clutch. On mine I took everything apart and cleaned everything and then I used silicone brake fluid. No fear of this happening again. but you have to clean all the old brake fluid out before switching to silicone. Run solvent thru the line etc.

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PLEASE NOTE MY NEW ADDRESS

Rodney Dickman's Fiero accessories
7604 Treeview Drive
Caledonia, WI 53108
(262) 835-9575

www.rodneydickman.com

Hey Yellowstone,
Any progress on the clutch problem?
Thanks!

Check all of the connections. The Master connection (Tighten the 12mm fitting), as well as the slave fitting (Also 12mm, I think), then check the entire line for leaks. Believe me it WILL PROBABLY take about 4 bleeds to get it right.

I had the same problem after my V6 engine rebuild back in '96. Also I used that "Heavy Duty" Fierostore clutch kit. Changed Master and Slave cylinder, still could not engage. Advise from the Fierostore was to extend the slave cylinder rod. That funny advise broke some metal blades of the pressure plate. In the end I returned the clutch kit for full refund and ordered locally an OEM 4 spring design clutch. No need for a 6 spring clutch disk if you just drive a stock engine. Better buy critical parts OEM and not from the Fierostore.

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'85 GT fastback w/ Artero front
'86 SE Lamborghini Countach Replica "bright yellow"
w/ 4.9

OK, I ordered a new master and slave cylinder and will install them as soon as they arrive.

Please take a look at this video I took today. There you can see the play that the clutch arm has - that looks weird to me....

www.yellowfiero.com/movies/clutch1.wmv

Any opinions?

Where's the slave rod in that video? Maybe I'm blind, but I do not see it. Even with some air in the clutch system, the slave rod should snuggle up against the throwout arm and prevent you from rocking it back and forth.

Now, if you removed the slave rod on purpose just to show that the throwout arm could move, then I would have to say that's normal.

[edit]

Looking at it again - I don't see the slave either . Since you described a 1/2" of travel in the clutch system, so I expect you did that on purpose - my bad.... My guess is you still have air in the system - in the slave cylinder to be specific.

Bleed the clutch as you would any normal hydraulic system (i.e. the pedal pump method) to clear air from the master & the lines. After that (1) grab the slave rod, (2) open the slave bleed value, (3) compress the slave rod ALL THE WAY IN, (4) close the bleed valve without letting up on the slave rod even the slightest amount. I think you'll find that you'll find some air right at the end of the slave's compression stroke. Using a "one may bleed kit" is a good way to insure you don't suck back any air during the process. Repeat until all the air is gone.

[This message has been edited by RTNmsds (edited 12-20-2005).]

I removed the slave cyl in the video for better visibility. My question is: Should the throwout arm move so much without resistance?

quote Originally posted by RTNmsds: Where's the slave rod in that video? Maybe I'm blind, but I do not see it. Even with some air in the clutch system, the slave rod should snuggle up against the throwout arm and prevent you from rocking it back and forth. Now, if you removed the slave rod on purpose just to show that the throwout arm could move, then I would have to say that's normal. [edit] Looking at it again - I don't see the slave either . Since you described a 1/2" of travel in the clutch system, so I expect you did that on purpose - my bad.... My guess is you still have air in the system - in the slave cylinder to be specific. Bleed the clutch as you would any normal hydraulic system (i.e. the pedal pump method) to clear air from the master & the lines. After that (1) grab the slave rod, (2) open the slave bleed value, (3) compress the slave rod ALL THE WAY IN, (4) close the bleed valve without letting up on the slave rod even the slightest amount. I think you'll find that you'll find some air right at the end of the slave's compression stroke. Using a "one may bleed kit" is a good way to insure you don't suck back any air during the process. Repeat until all the air is gone.

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: OK, I ordered a new master and slave cylinder and will install them as soon as they arrive. Please take a look at this video I took today. There you can see the play that the clutch arm has - that looks weird to me.... www.yellowfiero.com/movies/clutch1.wmv Any opinions?

thats normal - there is more room for the TOB to move away from the pressure plate.. thats what the spring inside the slave is for to take up the slack

I should have edited my previous post even further once I realized what was going on. Yes, I agree that it's normal to have that kind of play in the throwout arm with the slave rod removed.

P.S. Did you try Archie's "bleed the slave" method I paraphrased above? I think you were very, very close to getting the system working. Also, I meant to say a "one MAN bleed kit" makes it easier. Set up correctly, any suck back will simply bring fluid back in and not any air.

[This message has been edited by RTNmsds (edited 12-20-2005).]

OK, installed new slave cylinder today and rebuilt the master cylinder. Then I bled for AGES but at 8pm there was still air in the system and I called it a day. Tomorrow I'll have help and it should work better...

Update: Spent 2 hours bleeding the clutch hydraulics today. Followed the instructions but even after 0,5l of fluid through the system, there were still air bubbles coming out and the pedal was spongy with a throwout arm moving 1/2 inch max..

Then I removed the bleeder screw and saw small bubbles coming out of the liquid. After 3 minutes the bubbles stopped coming and the fluid rose until the bleeder hole was full. That's when I reinserted the screw: Now I had 2 inches of throwout arm travel and the clutch would disengage! Then I tried bleeding some more and immediately had air back in the system. Removed the screw, let air bubble out, reinserted the screw and it worked again.

Clutch works now but engages almost immediately after lifting the pedal from the floor.

Any ideas why the normal bleeding method is not working?

Years ago I changed the clutch master cyl in my old 2M4 and for the life of me I could not bleed the damned thing. I wound up limping it to a repair shop where they pressure bled it for about $35. and 15 minutes tops. Money well spent VS. the agrivation. Let us know how it turns out.

UPDATE!!! I stumbled on the "gravity bleed procedure" in the archives. So, I thought I'd give it a try since I had nothing to lose. I am glad I did because now I have excellent pedal. Clutch engages as pedal is about 1/3 to 1/2 way released and feels firm.
When I first read about this method It seemed too easy but it worked!!! First: I raised front end a good 5-6 inches. Then I placed a piece of clear tube over the slave nipple and secured it with a small tie strap to keep from leaking and making a mess. The other end of the tube was placed in a empty bottle. From there I opend the clutch master cyl. and topped with fluid. Then I cracked the slave bleeder screw about a half turn and immediately bubbly fluid rose up mostly consisting of air at first. Soon the tubing became solid of fluid right out of the slave. I just let it go for about 15-20 minutes to flush some of the old dirty fluid out while repeatedly refilling the master cyl. Tighten up the bleeder screw and I was done. Too easy. I have tried the other ways and failed. This one worked for me.

no one had mentioned that yet? thats the only way to do it.

I bled the clutch again today using the gravity method described above. Works great, afterwards I have excellent disengagement but after pumping the pedal 5-10 times the pedel still feels quite firm but I have less and less clutch disengagement until I cannot shift into any gear. I guess that's an air leak somewhere in the system? I rebuilt the master cyl. and installed a new slave cyl. already...

In my experience aftermarket master cylinders have been the biggest problem. The tube style with the line fitting at the end of the mastercylinder tube never worked properly in the remanufactured or new aftermarket form by wagner for me, I opened one and discovered it has an o-ring in the second position instead of a second cup-plunger like the original from GM and as a result would pump up but gradually leak air into the system in a day or less. I ended up with a brand new first design with the aluminum housing and the line fitting between the fire wall and the fluid reservoir, the pedal pressure comes on immediately and was so effective I had to adjust to the change in the clutch engage/disengage points. I had to bend the line a bit to get it to attach to the repositioned fitting on the mastercylinder and would recommend for anyone else that considers this style to add an additional flex line such as the one connected to the slave cylinder. I believe this particular mastercylinder was the first design used on the Fiero and that the 86 Fiero which I have came with the steel tube and cast iron design neither of which I had good service from in the aftermarket part. After letting it gravity bleed for a while it had excellent pressure.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 12-26-2005).]

quote Originally posted by yellowstone: Any ideas why the normal bleeding method is not working?

Gravity bleeding is the only method that I have ever found that works. I have suction bled, preasure bled and pumped. None work. Gravity bleeding seems to always work.

I have not personally had to deal with it but there are many posts talking about issues with slave cylanders letting in air backwards past the seal. I have more than once taken apart an old, gummed up factory slave and honed it out with a piece of sandpaper. Cleaned it up and reinstalled it. It has worked every time with no leaks.

[This message has been edited by Electrathon (edited 12-26-2005).]

Bled the clutch again today, same story: After gravity bleeding and tightening everything back up, clutch works like a dream. With every pedal depression, the clutch disengages less and less and after 6 (today) depressions, I cannot put the tranny into any gear anymore. This is air gatting into the system, right?

In what order should I eliminate possible causes now?

This is definitely air getting into the system.

Did you bench bleed the clutch master cylinder? It's almost impossible to get all the air out of a dry master cylinder on the car.
Also, I've seen cases where the fittings or bleed screws has a bit of rust on the and weren't sealing properly. You can tighten them down, but they still won't seal.

And the cast iron slave cylinders are notorious for leaking air. The steel ones aren't made anymore; however. I've heard of people buying the cast iron ones, then taking them apart to rebuild an old steel one.

I am currently, and have been for the past 2 months, having the same problem. For me, its the some valve on the rear drivers side. That is what the shop who is doing my work told me. Its been in and out of the shop so many times. The thing started acting up again tonight, so it goes back in tomorrow. Good luck with fixing it, because i know it is a pain in the butt.

Randy

Update. I pulled the (new) slave again, dismantled it and put the (new) plunger, seal and spring into the old slave housing. Cleaned the old slave with fine sand paper first. Bled the clutch and it held up even after a test drive. Problem seems solved...

I also changed the clutch pedal with the one from my parts car - when it was out I could see how bent it was! I thought the steel pedals used in a 87 would not bend...Getting the pedal out is a PITA and totally backbreaking work!

OK, I used gravity to "bleed" my hydraulic line and now it works a couple of times then doesn't push the rod far enough to disengage the clutch. I had it working long enought to do a brake stand or two ... dang these things are quick.

I noticed a little bit of bleed by inside the boot of the slave cylinder. I'm supposing that the slave is done for ... can anyone confirm this for me. Is the slave cylinder common or do I have to get one from the Fiero Store or maybe from a Pontiac dealer (I hate having to buy one from a dealer) as they are sold by the pound, each pound being the price of an ounce of gold. Can they be rebuilt or is it just not worth it?

[This message has been edited by Fatfenders of Canada (edited 04-16-2006).]