I am going to lose my mind. I have bled it and re-bled it. I have used a power bleeder thanks to John (aka Watts)

I have never had a problem bleeding a clutch I have bled my own clutch dozens of times after changing tranny's or clutches or slaves.

I am only getting about 7/8ths of an inch travel at the slave.

It shifted perfectly with the old clutch. I only had to move the pedal maybe 1/2 way do shift it. Now with the new Archie Clutch it simply won't disengage.

I am using the Archie Clutch with a billet steel flywheel from LSC. I am using an Isuzu throwout bearing. The slave is about 2 months old.

Anyone got any miracle suggestions?

Please
I don't think it is the master as I am not getting extra air in as far as I can see.

Anyone got any suggestions.

I do have the aluminum pedal however it is about an inch above the brake so I am guessing that means it is not bent.

The car shifted fine right until the clutch job.

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85GT 5spd MSD Everything,4.9 With Nitrous. www.captfiero.com

The clutch should have NO effect on the throw. Hell you can unbolt the damn cylinders, pedals, line from the chassis and still get the proper amount of movement. The clutch not disengaging is something different, but if you're not getting enough movement to it, there's something haywire in the hydrolics...

EDIT: I misread the 7/8". It may be stubborn there, but it should still work. I can get over an inch of throw out of mine, but its worked with as little as 3/4. So I guess n/m on that above, lol.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 08-12-2005).]

I would check the slave positions (the piston within the slave - remove the rubber boot) at rest and fully extended. I suspect you are either fully extending the slave or you are bottoming it out when it is at rest.

Different clutches have different depths and with the mixture of parts, you could easily need to lenghten or shorten your slave rod.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-12-2005).]

It's hard to believe that someone would bleed the system countless times & replace the slave & consider replacing the master & not do the easy cheap thing & replace the pedal.

The Clutch pedal will make a world of difference. Read this then put the new pedal in then complain that you can't find the miracle cure. http://www.v8archie.com/arch6.htm

The bent bracket on the pedal moves the "banjo" pin closer to the fulcrum of the lever & reduces the effective travel of the banjo. The bent pedal has nothing to do with & cannot be assesed for problems based the height of the clutch pedal relative to the brake pedal.

Archie

[This message has been edited by Archie (edited 08-12-2005).]

OK a 20 year veteran transmission re builder over here tonight, a GM Service Tech, and countless hours on the phone with John at The Fiero Hut.

Here is what we found.

At the carpet at the Master when we peeled back the boot for rod, there is a very small amount of fluid in there. Not sure when or how it got in there, as I have never had to top of the fluid in the reservoir. But maybe going to the stronger clutch did it in. However there is no air getting into the system.

As per Johns Request we pulled the slave out, held it upside down bled it all out, and then gently pushed on the clutch pedal. It was firm. This confirms there is no air in the system. So I gently in one firm motion pushed it back into place and tightened down the bolts to hold it down.
Re- Measured and still 7/8ths to 9/10ths of an inch. UGH.

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: I would check the slave positions (the piston within the slave - remove the rubber boot) at rest and fully extended. I suspect you are either fully extending the slave or you are bottoming it out when it is at rest. Different clutches have different depths and with the mixture of parts, you could easily need to lengthen or shorten your slave rod.

We took a 2nd rod and set it beside the installed slave rod to see roughly where the piston would be and it is pretty deep into the slave, but the Tranny guy suggested for a test, we put a NUT inside the pivot hole in the trans release arm. This pushed the rod further into the slave about 1/2 an inch. So we did this and then re-bled everything. guess what we got, 7/8ths to 9/10'ths. Ugh.

I am just baffled that it shifted fine 3 days ago, and now it wont shift at all.
The Transmission tech guy says it could be the bent pedal, bent bracket or something. GM Guy says there is just more air in it, or the master is blown. John at the Fiero hut, is stumped as well.

quote Originally posted by Archie: It's hard to believe that someone would bleed the system countless times & replace the slave & consider replacing the master & not do the easy cheap thing & replace the pedal. The Clutch pedal will make a world of difference. Read this then put the new pedal in then complain that you can't find the miracle cure. http://www.v8archie.com/arch6.htm The bent bracket on the pedal moves the "banjo" pin closer to the fulcrum of the lever & reduces the effective travel of the banjo. The bent pedal has nothing to do with & cannot be assessed for problems based the height of the clutch pedal relative to the brake pedal. Archie

Well Archie, believe it not (and you can check my ip addy) I was on your site reading all your Archaisms yesterday when this hole nightmare started. We went as far as pulled the slave off of the trans and bled it by compression in the piston and releasing it very slowly. Then doing the pedal feel test to make sure there was no air in it. So it was re-installed.

I just got off of the Fiero Store sight and will probably order up the new pedal first thing Monday Morning. After duty, taxes, shipping and currency exchange it should be about 70 bucks CDN. Which is about the same price as a slave cylinder up here. So new master and new pedal, I will hope that this will solve the problem.

Maybe and this is what I am hoping. The cheap stock clutches I have been using have had a light pedal pressure thus not requiring the pedal bracket to sustain much force. However the new clutch may require more force and the weak pedal just can't hack it.

Anyone else think I might be on to something?

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85GT 5spd MSD Everything,4.9 With Nitrous. www.captfiero.com

Ummm....
I *know* that this is a silly question and all, but I've got to ask...

You *are* using the Isuzu throwout bearing. Right? (I've never compared the two, so this question might even be more stupid than I imagine.)

Assuming that's all good... Weren't there some Spec Stage 2 clutches sold that accidentally were built with a 1/4"-3/8" (or so) flange on the tranny side of the disk? Seems that those clutches would cause the throwout bearing to bottom out, and prevent the fingers from going in far enough to release the clutch.
Is it possible that Centerforce got hold of some of those same hubs and also made some of these faulty clutches?
Stranger things have happened.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Ummm.... I *know* that this is a silly question and all, but I've got to ask... You *are* using the Isuzu throwout bearing. Right? (I've never compared the two, so this question might even be more stupid than I imagine.) Assuming that's all good... Weren't there some Spec Stage 2 clutches sold that accidentally were built with a 1/4"-3/8" (or so) flange on the tranny side of the disk? Seems that those clutches would cause the throwout bearing to bottom out, and prevent the fingers from going in far enough to release the clutch. Is it possible that Centerforce got hold of some of those same hubs and also made some of these faulty clutches? Stranger things have happened.

Gawd I hope not. LOL

As for the throwout bearing. Ya I am using the Isuzu throwout bearing. It is the same one that was in the tranny. I only got Oh 45 days out of the last clutch. So I just went ahead and re-used the bearing.

Good luck with it. I've been reading of your adventures on the Cadero list. Hope it turns out to be something simple.
You might also check out Rodney's adjustable clutch banjo.

quote Originally posted by Raydar: Good luck with it. I've been reading of your adventures on the Cadero list. Hope it turns out to be something simple. You might also check out Rodney's adjustable clutch banjo.

The 20 year tranny veteran guy said the same thing, make the clutch banjo longer. But I just don't see how that would help, because the pedal is still moving the same amount from the floor of the car to the top of the pedal stop. It would just make the piston in the master sit further down in the bore. Unless maybe the adjustable bango can help to compensate for a bad clutch pedal. ????

Well we shall see, We shall See.

[This message has been edited by Capt Fiero (edited 08-13-2005).]

quote Originally posted by Capt Fiero: As for the throwout bearing. Ya I am using the Isuzu throwout bearing. It is the same one that was in the tranny. I only got Oh 45 days out of the last clutch. So I just went ahead and re-used the bearing.

I know the bearing isnt that old but if the clutch went bad then the throw our bearing may be bad also. I learned the hard way not to re-use the throw out bearing when replacing clutch sets. This may not be you problem but them again, it could be.

Read a post of yours via email lists, you have a PM

I had the exact same problem after I installed the Centerforce (same setup) - mine was a pedal problem. When I installed the steel pedal last year I forgot to put the sleeve inside the new pedal, seemed to work fine with my OEM clutch, but drove me nuts after the Centerforce as well, but then I noticed a bit of slop in the pedal and pulled it out and noticed my screw up (good thing I kept the original pedal (wasn't bent) as it still had the sleeve in it).

I also installed Rodney's adjustable banjo to take up some of the slack.

I still get only about 7/8" travel on the slave, I even tried mounting the slave on the other side of the mount to see if that will give me more travel (didn't matter). My clutch releases at about 1/2 pedal.

Tim

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 08-13-2005).]

Well the master is out and it looks like the hole in the rod that the clutch arm goes to is slightly worn.

I am going to pull the pedal out and take a closer look at it. I may even take it over to the Fiero Hut and have him look at it as well.

I will update you all when I find out what course I am going next.

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85GT 5spd MSD Everything,4.9 With Nitrous. www.captfiero.com

quote Originally posted by fieroguru: I would check the slave positions (the piston within the slave - remove the rubber boot) at rest and fully extended. I suspect you are either fully extending the slave or you are bottoming it out when it is at rest. Different clutches have different depths and with the mixture of parts, you could easily need to lenghten or shorten your slave rod.

I think he may of hit the nail on the head. I had to shorton my slave rod because the spec clutch was different then the ram clutch, My problem was hte opposite... Mine was disengaging the clutch too much causing my clutch to slip.

[This message has been edited by 86fieroEarl (edited 08-13-2005).]

OK the clutch pedal was not bent. But in an effort to try everything John mad me an adjustable clutch rod. So we installed that and had no affect. So pedal issue is out. Longer master rod is out. Uhm what next guys. I think tomorrow I am pulling the thing again to take a look.

Here are some quick pics. I am off to the local club meeting, in a borrowed Fiero. Ugh. But I will drop it out tomorrow if I cant find a quick fix, and if that does not solve the problem I may just burn it to the ground.

Just kidding.

But here are the pics.

I will post other pics of the arm tonight.

is there any chance at all that the problem is not in the hydraulics at all? what about testing the clutch release by pressing the clutch arm in using a different method? maybe the clutch arm has to be rotated on the pinion or maybe the fork is bent? That would be the first thing to check before going crazy trying to fix something that may not be broke.

quote Originally posted by cptsnoopy: is there any chance at all that the problem is not in the hydraulics at all? what about testing the clutch release by pressing the clutch arm in using a different method? maybe the clutch arm has to be rotated on the pinion or maybe the fork is bent? That would be the first thing to check before going crazy trying to fix something that may not be broke.

You can't rotate the arm as it is notched in such a way that it only fits on in one spot Although it could be bent if it is one of the steel samped ones and not the cast one.

As meantioned above, check the slave arm. You can mount the slave on the opposite side of the bracket (unless it is an original where the studs are pressed in). On the after market ones, you can remove the studs and insert them the opposite way. Mounting to the other side of the bracket will give you some extra throw.

I assume you are not getting an air out when you bleed the system.

Barring that, you may have to pull the tranny again and see what's up...

[This message has been edited by Mickey_Moose (edited 08-14-2005).]

I had a problem like this one myself. It turned out to be the clutch fork was not installed properly into the release bearing. I bled the clutch, had the travel, then damaged the pressure plate and clutch fork in the stubborn process of trying to make it work without pulling the engine to check it out. In my opinion, if you have tried all of the other stuff, maybe you need to dig a little deeper. When installing the new parts, I tied the clutch arm in place while installing the engine to the transaxle. Now everything works fine.

Dave

It is very possible that this is a mechanical problem inside the tranny.

At this point I am at a loss as to what in the heck it is. I had planned on getting started on the car first thing this morning, but I think my brain told my body not to get up this morning. It was time to relax. When I cracked my eyes open at quarter to 11 and (slept for 12hrs straight) Then got up and looked at the thermostat to see that it was already 90F outside and getting warmer. It is just too hot to pull the cradle out starting at around noon. So I am going to take the day to look into things and see what comes up. Great news last night though. As I mentioned a few posts up, I was on my way out to the club meeting last night. Well I mentioned my problems and fear that the tranny was damaged. A member comes up to me and asks if I could do "him a favor" he has some old "junk" he needs removed. I am like I don't have a truck or anything. He is like ah thats no problem. Figured that the spare Isuzu would fit in the trunk of the Le baron. YAAAAAAAAAA. Just when you are down and out, someone offers up a free Isuzu 5spd to use as parts or just put in if necessary.

So I think I am going to go and pick that up today.

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85GT 5spd MSD Everything,4.9 With Nitrous. www.captfiero.com

Wellallright!

A defective 2 month old slave?
I've heard that the new ones were poor quality. Even the expensive GM ones.
Scares the hell out of me since I'm going to be swapping a Getrag into my car in a few months.

Congrats!

Glad you like the Iszsu. i've had one linked to my jasper 2.8 Reman. for 5 yrs now. glad your hydrulics are fixed too! been there done that!

God dude, you remind me of countless times I've rangled with that damn clutch stuff. I've solved most of my problems, I might say also on my own. I only got one problem now. I'm getting some semi-loud humming from the right side in the engine area.

I think what makes me the most mad is that I bled it for so long before finally giving up and admiting that it was not air in the lines.

When I had the new slave, it took me less than 10min to install, and bleed it and test it. The bleeding took like 3min doing my way.

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85GT 5spd MSD Everything,4.9 With Nitrous. www.captfiero.com