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Water Injection Build by 86fierofun
Started on: 05-31-2005 06:35 PM
Replies: 24
Last post by: 86fierofun on 09-10-2005 12:16 AM
86fierofun
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Report this Post05-31-2005 06:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post
I have been looking for some cheaper modifications to do to my car lately to make it more... unique. I have done some small stuff for looks, on the interior, and I was looking for something to make my duke better. I did some reaserching, got ideas off the web and the forum and I decided to try putting water injection onto my car. I know that there is a lot of speculation as to whether or not water injection does anything for a naturally aspirated car, but I decided to give it a try. By water injection I mean injecting a mist of water into the intake air of the engine. Theoretically, If done well, it is supposed to boost gas mileage, raise the fuel octain, cool the engine temps just a bit, and possibly give a performance boost (by absorbing waste heat and extending the combustion time as well as giving a slight pressure increace by turning water into steam). I have seen mixed results on the effectiveness of water injection so instead of contimplating and arguing what might happen, I have given it a try.

My system is fairly simple, as I have not quite gotten all the parts that I would have liked to get. I have a plastic bottle that will act as my tank. My idea was to use a fuel pump to supply the required pressure, and then use an injector to mist the air into the intake. However, my injector has not come in yet, so my initial setup will be a bit simpler. With the injector, I would be able to set it up to pulse with the fuel injector in the throttle body and therefore regulate the pressure of the water and the amount of water being injected. When I get my injector, this is the way I will go. For now, however, since I need to get a trial done (this project is for fun, but also for a school project, and I have deadlines), I have used as a mister the cap to a spray bottle (meant for spraying water, and it has a very good mist).

Here is how I put together the fuel pump into the reservoir. I sealed it in with goop as well as sealing the electrical wires to the fuel pump terminal.

Here is a picture of the nozzle that I used. Unfortunately my camera doesn't focus well on close objects.

To mount the bottle, I tood advantage of an open bracket that is on the trunk wall.

Since I don't have an injector, I had to mount the nozzle on the top of the air cleaner assembly. First, I drilled a small hole in the top to provide an opening for the mist

Then I used some goopy stuff that will come off easily to temporarily install the hose and nozzle.

When I put the bottle in I had to hold down the fuel pump some how, so I used plumbers strap to hold it to the car. I borrowed a screw from the heat shield nearby.

I am currently working on a switch and touchup controls to adjust the amount of water being pumped. This version of my install will only put out the same amount of water for all rpm ranges, but when I get the injector, I will be able to modulate the water with the trottle. When I get it installed and take the car for a test drive, I will post back and report what happened.

[This message has been edited by 86fierofun (edited 05-31-2005).]

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post05-31-2005 08:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
While I appreciate your ingenuity; I do not believe that a water injection system on a Duke engine will buy you anything. Water injection is used to slow preignition- potentailly a problem in boosted engines or those will ultra high compression ratios like 13:1. . As for raising the Octane, water injecion doesn't do this. It will slow the burn rate in the combustion chamber like high octane gasoline will but it certainly does not in itself increase gasoline octane numbers or it's energy potential. . Now if you filled the injection bottle with nitromethane that might add power, but it also might melt your Duke. In all seriousness, adding water won't add horsepower and will slow you down. .
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Report this Post05-31-2005 08:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FirefighterSend a Private Message to FirefighterDirect Link to This Post
Yes, of course Dennis is correct. I'm in the final stages of installing a turbocharger and a water / alcohol injection system. For a turbo or supercharged engine without all the intercooler plumbing, a water /alcohol injection system is practical to cool the hot compressed intake air. But your intake air is already cool and not likely to benefit from your hard work. But, give it a shot, perhaps we're missing something - note - too much water will drown your engine and cause immediate fouling, so only a mist that you can hardly see. Ed

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Report this Post05-31-2005 08:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttDirect Link to This Post
Good Luck.

From the looks of your vid, you will do more bad than good, but whatever mang.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 06-01-2005).]

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Report this Post05-31-2005 09:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post
well, atomizing and misting have different effects, and mine does a mixure between the two. I know that there are doubts out there about water injection on a naturally aspired vehicle, however, I have found some very promising results. You are correct in that it doesn't actually raise the octain of the fuel, but it has similar effects. Water injection does different things on a NA car than it would on a turbo car. If you would like, I could post my report I did for class on water injection and you can see what I mean. There is potential, but I want to test it out.

Project update: I tested it, though only briefly. There is a big design flaw in my system. Can anyone see it? I'll give you guys like 15 min to figure it out while I eat.

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86fierofun
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Report this Post05-31-2005 09:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post

86fierofun

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I am using the best spray bottle that I have ever seen. It is for the slide of a trombone, and it comes pretty darn close to atomising the water. And it is not that low of pressure, the fuel pump puts out 40 something. It actually is a bit much.

Still no answers? and no, the design flaw is not in the goopy stuff.

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Report this Post05-31-2005 09:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post

86fierofun

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Aww, you all missed the prize.

it was that the fuel pump is not supposed to be sticking out like I had it. It turns out that under full pressure, it reliefs out of a hole that is on the end by the wiring. I will have to rethink that out a bit more.

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Report this Post05-31-2005 10:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post

86fierofun

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here is some light reading for you. I wrote this for an english paper. I hope to test the theories stated in my paper.

Water Injection for Power and Fuel Economy

Everyone wants the best performance out of their vehicle. Joe Shmoe pulls up to a stop and revs his engine, only to get wasted off the line by a family sedan. That’s why Joe puts decals and glass pack mufflers onto his Honda to try to make it faster. Next time he’s at a stop he gets wasted off the line by a moped. Finally Joe gives up his tuning pursuits and goes for a sound system that’s so loud it vibrates all the bolts off. On the other side of the spectrum, there are some who would like to pay less than $500 a week on gas so they drive a two pound foreign sub sub compact that gets 2584.92 miles per gallon. I know that ideally, everyone would like to get a nice mix between these two extremes, except that they would have real performance rather than decals that “add five horsepower each” as the import crowd tends to think. Often, a real tune up to a car is quite costly and involved, like spending several hundred dollars on a turbo or supercharger, or spending several thousand dollars on an engine swap. Finding fuel-improving modifications is almost a mythical thing, and most products available on the market are nothing more than a hoax. Looking at all that is available on the market, one promising looking modification to provide potential power and fuel economy is water injection.
Water injection has been used to greatly improve an engine’s power and performance, but what is water injection? Water is being inserted into something, but what and how? Water can be injected as a stream, mist, or spray, and into any cavity. On a car water could be injected just about anywhere, the intake, the engine, the exhaust, the tires, the cabin, the seats, and anything else on a car.
However, for engine performance, water has been injected as a mist in three different areas, only one pertains to typical cars. When one mentions water injection to tuners, they will immediately think of turbos. It is relatively common for turbo owners to inject water onto their intercooler, which is basically a radiator for air. Air that goes into the intake of a vehicle on a good turbo car will go through an intercooler to cool off. Spraying water on the intercooler will evaporate when it hits it and cools off the air quicker and faster. Cold air is denser air, which means more air is put into the engine. The more air in the engine the more fuel can be added which means the engine produces more power. However this has practicality of use for very few select cars.
Another way of water injection is putting a mist of water into the exhaust. It works the same way as with an intercooler, except its cooling the exhaust manifold, not the intercooler. This has been shown to give horsepower benefits and lower the RPM range where horsepower peaks. However, the only vehicles this has really been tried on were motorcycles, another small group of vehicles.
For most people, they drive a naturally aspired engine, or in other words, a non turbo, non-supercharged engine. It is for this engine water injection will be defined. Water is misted into the intake air, usually at the intake manifold, to be sucked into the combustion chamber (where the pistons are). When the fuel burns, it evaporates the water, cooling off combustion temperatures and gives a pressure boost, as the water is now steam. The water also raises the octane of the fuel and cools the intake air. All this makes for more power and better fuel efficiency, and in cars that most people drive.
Water injection provides a way for Joe Shmoe to get some potential power benefits while, more importantly, keeping fuel consumption low. Every 3000 miles one drives, and their fuel efficiency goes from 20 to 25 miles per gallon, they use 30 gallons of gas less per oil change at about a savings of $60. Water injection has been known to produce even better results for more savings making it a good candidate for engine performance modifications. In fact, water injection can have the benefits on a naturally aspired engine of increased fuel efficiency, more power and torque, and lower emissions by lowering temperatures, increasing air pressure, and raising the octane of the fuel, making it a good idea for amateur car tuners.
The idea of water injection is not a new one. Water injection has been around for a long time, in a matter of speaking, in steam engines, jet aircraft, and some automobiles. The first idea of “water injection” seen in mechanics was the steam engine. Granted steam engines run only on steam, and nothing is actually injected, but it acts on the same principle that will gives water injection its potential for power, and that is its pressure from steam. Steam engines have been very powerful and have powered some large equipment. Steam engines were used for all of the early locomotives, and could pull large payloads of cars. Steam engines were also used to power ferryboats and other large sea fearing vehicles. More recently, the Titanic was powered by large steam engines. These engines weighed about 1000 tons, operated at about 76 rpm, and produced an amazing 16,000 hp that was needed to move such a massive vessel (www.titanic-titanic.com). Therefore it is important not to overlook the potential for added pressure from steam in the combustion chamber of a car running on water injection.
The use of water injection on engines seems to have originated around WWII, and appeared on the various planes in the war. Here, water was injected into mostly turbocharged airplanes to help increase boost on take off and also to help the aircraft’s top speed. The German Messerschmitt K ran on a 1,800 hp DB 605D engine that after it was modified with water-methanol injection ran at 2,000 hp. A variant of the P-51 Mustang ran off of water injection also delivering over 2,000 hp. A version of the Chance Vought F4U Corsair ran on water injection which boosted it’s performance from a top speed of 393 mph to 415 mph. (Hawks). While water injection was popular at this time, it tended to lose favour to afterburners. Water injection is still used to some extent on bigger airplanes. Water injection has been used as recent in commercial aircraft as the Boeing 747-100 (www.twa800.com) as well as being used on military troop transports, one of which actually crashed on take off due to a malfunction in it’s invaluable water injection system (St. Petersburg Times).
While car manufacturers have dabbled a little on water injection (like Volvo), It has been tried by a fair amount of private tuners (with a little more success than Joe Shmoe). Ron Novak was one of the pioneers for water injection, putting it on some of his carbourated vehicles in the late 70’s. He has had success putting water injection on a BMW R60/2 motorcycle, a 1973 Opel GT, a 1968 Cadillac, and a Honda. From his fairly crude home-made water injection, he received a little in the way of power boost, less vibration, had better cold starts in the morning, and saw a 2 mpg increase in his fuel mileage. Another individual that has had much success in water injection is Pat Goodman. He first started putting water into his Porsche racing car. His professionally designed system worked so good to produce power, his water injection system was banned from the racing league he was in. He later put his water injection system onto a 1978 Ford Fiesta and was able to achieve 50 mpg city driving. His professional system had much success in the cars that he installed it on, though he didn’t have the same success in marketing it. Ron’s system involved using parts that you could find around your house and was very limited in terms of control. Pat’s, however, used the smog pump off his vehicles to provide a spray of water into the engine, and the water pressure was variably controlled with the throttle by the smog pump. The latter design was able to maximise the performance and the gas mileage increase as well as deliver a fuel to water ratio that would make for the most efficient burn. (Mother Earth News)
The mechanics of water injection is fairly simple. It is best to look first at the power potential by looking at how steam engines work and produce their power. Steam engines consist of two main components, their boiler, and their piston. Steam is taken from a reservoir and pumped through the boiler. The boiler is basically a fireplace with pipes running through it. The fire in the boiler heats up the water into steam which makes its way under high pressure to the piston where a valve directs the steam from one side of the piston to the other making it oscillate back and forth and, in turn, the piston turns a driveshaft or propeller or whatever it is hooked up to. Steam engines create very high-pressure steam to run high power loads by basic wood or coal fires (www.howstuffworks.com). In an internal combustion engine, temperatures can get up to 2000 degrees Celsius. That means the little water injected into an engine has the potential to create as much pressure as the large amounts of water used in steam engines, as a combustion engine operates at higher temperatures than a boiler.
Besides providing pressure benefits, water can absorb heat very well. It takes 2260 J/g to change water into steam. This absorbs a lot of energy and heat. In an engine, this means that combustion temperatures are lowered by a substantial amount if water is injected into it. As the water absorbs the heat of combustion to turn itself into steam, it keeps the combustion temperatures from spiking. On a temperature vs. time graph, a normal combustion engine would get a huge spike in temperature that would last for a very short time and would look like a sharp mountain. When water is injected into the combustion chamber, it lowers the peak of the mountain and makes it wider, meaning it lowers the total combustion temperatures and extends the time it takes for the combustion cycle to complete. This means the fuel burns longer, cleaner (lower temperature burns produce less emissions), and gives more power. Water injection can be compared to using a double boiler or a baking pan in the oven. These devises gently heat food and extend the cooking times. Without them, if you just throw a turkey right onto a baking rack or burner, it will quickly scorch a small section of the turkey and not cook the rest. That is in a way what happens in an engine without water injection. A quick burn happens which is very inefficient in the burning of the fuel and gives off waste heat, like the burnt turkey, as well as letting some fuel pass right through the engine, like the parts of the turkey that were not cooked. This fuel gets consumed in the catalytic converter where it does no good and provides no power at all. Water injection therefore is very effective in making a better use of the fuel that is available and getting more power from it by a longer, cleaner burn at lower temperatures.
Lower combustion temperatures have more benefits besides fuel benefits. Lower temperatures mean less wear on the engine components. The part of the engine that sees the worst heat are the pistons. The pistons are in contact with the combustion gasses, as well as constantly rubbing against the cylinder walls. They endure the heat of both combustion and friction and can cause big problems if the cylinder walls are not properly lubricated. Lower combustion temperatures can help reduce the stress on these parts of the engine and increase the life of the piston rings and seals, which can be very costly to replace. Lower combustion temperatures also means lower engine temperatures in areas like the exhaust, heads, and valves, all of which are expensive parts to replace. Lower temperatures are also very good for all the bearings and surfaces that rub. If overall engine temperatures are reduced, the life of an engine can be increased by a lot. One could run an engine 200,000 miles before it dies while the same one on water injection could make it o 300,000 miles because of less engine wear.
Water injection can also have its benefits before combustion. Spraying water into the intake of a car will cool the intake temperature a bit. As the water is being sprayed, it would partially evaporate and absorb heat from the air making the air temperature drop. As the air temperature drops, the air will also become denser. Denser air means that you can fit more air into the combustion chamber. The more air you bring in the more gas you can put into the engine and the more power you will get. This is called forced induction and is the same principal turbos and superchargers use, putting more air into the intake. Water injection would be creating a forced induction to some extent.
Water injection raises the octane of the fuel, which opens many doors for performance increases. The octane of the fuel is in a way the measure of how easy the fuel will spontaneously ignite under compression, or knock in an engine. The octane of fuel comes from the hydrocarbon chain of molecules, octane. It doesn’t spontaneously combust easily, while heptain, another fuel combusts easily. Gasses for vehicles are combinations of the two. 87-octane fuel is 87% octane and 13% heptain. Lower octane fuel, while under very high pressure will spontaneously combust, thus making a knock in the engine. High-octane fuel has a higher flash point and wont combust as easily under high pressure. Therefore, the benefit of high-octane fuel is that you can increase the compression ratio of the engine and/or increase boost on a forced induction engine like turbocharged or supercharged engines (www.howstuffworks.com). Since the focus of this discussion is on naturally aspirated engines, higher-octane fuel has one main benefit. The timing of the engine, that is when in the combustion cycle the spark plugs are fired, can be advanced to create a more powerful burn. Engines are timed early so that the plugs fire before the pistons compress the air and fuel mix to the max. This is done to prevent knocking in the engine or predetination of the fuel. In that respect, most cars on the road are intentionally underpowered. Advancing the timing detonates the fuel when it’s under even more pressure than normal and creates more power. Adding water into the fuel effectively raises its flash point, or the temperature at which the fuel will spontaneously combust. This raises the octane of the fuel and allows for advancing the timing and receiving a performance increase. Fig. 1 shows the pressure benefits from using water injection at nine degrees advanced timing (green line) compared to the normal combustion cycle (yellow line). (www.aquamist.co.uk).
On the money side of the discussion, anyone running an older vehicle that needs higher octane fuel, or anyone running a high performance vehicle like a Corvette where the factory recommends higher octane fuel, can run their cars off of low octane fuel if they are using water injection and not suffer any performance decreases. At a ten cents a gallon saving from low-grade gas over mid grade, this can add up to large savings at the pump.
Water injection can also help to decrease exhaust emissions. Often, unless the vehicle is burning oil, the problem spot for passing emissions is in the nitrous oxide levels. Water injection works to decrease engine temperatures, which therefore decreases nitrous oxide levels. Nitrous oxide is often made in combustion at very high temperatures. Lowering the temperatures of combustion lower the possibility of the fuel forming nitrous oxide and emitting it in the exhaust. Water injection does, however, raise the hydrocarbon levels just slightly. Therefore, water injection on an oil burner is not a good idea if it needs to pass state emissions. (www.faqs.com)
The real life benefits to the end user are many. The power increases from water injection can very greatly from engine to engine. First it depends on the amount of power the engine has to start out with. A 50-hp engine will not (easily) increase its horsepower by 150. However, an engine that has 400 hp to start can more feasibly increase its hp by 150. On a Fiero engine, which is a four-cylinder engine with around 90-horse power, one could expect a feasible increase of 20-horse power, by any means, not necessarily water injection. Another factor that would influence how much power increase water injection provides is if the engine it is on has forced induction. If it does, water injection will benefit it much more than an engine that doesn’t have forced induction, as the water injection decreases the intake air temperature greatly acting like and intercooler. Another aspect that influences the power benefits from water injection is the type of water injection kit. If it is a professional one, there is high probability for power increase. If the kit is a hobbled together five-cent concoction, it probably won’t provide much power benefit. Therefore, it is very hard to estimate the performance benefits from a water injection system. On a Fiero, one could expect from a mid quality kit performance increase in the 5 to 10 horse power range. For practical purposes, this would mean the car can go up a gill easier or pass a car on the highway easier.
The same factors and variables that affect power increases from water injection also affect fuel mileage increases from water injection. Again looking at a Fiero, it would be reasonable that from a mid quality water injection system, one could attain 3-4 mpg increase in fuel mileage, since Ron Novak could gain 2 mpg increase from a very amateur water injection system (Novak). The Fiero gets around 22-mpg city driving. Every 3000 miles, about 136 gallons of gas are consumed. At $2 a gallon, that comes to $272 worth of gas every 3000 miles. 3000 miles is used in the approximation, as that is the mileage driven between oil changes. If the fuel mileage were increased to 26 miles per gallon by water injection, every 3000 miles about 115 gallons of gas are consumed. At $2 a gallon, that’s $230 of gas every oil change for a savings of $42 every oil change.
One can look at it another way. A Fiero has a 10-gallon tank. That means that at 22 miles per gallon, the car can travel 220 miles. At $2 a gallon the tank of gas is $20 and costs about 9 cents per mile. Now look at the cost with water injection. A tank of gas now lasts 260 miles at 26 miles per gallon. This comes to about 7.7 cents per mile. Looking at the life of a car, a good car will go 200,000 miles. At 9 cents per mile that comes to $18,000 spent on gas for the car. With water injection, 200,000 at 7.7 cents per mile comes to $15,400 for gas. That’s a savings of $2,600 worth of gas! That is enough to have a good down payment on a new car.
Another money factor to look at is the savings in gas money from driving on lower octane fuel. Currently in Waukesha, WI, the difference between low and mid grade gas can be 10 cents. If all fuel mileage benefits of water injection are ignored and not calculated, a Fiero would use 136 gallons of gas every 3000 miles. Saving 10 cents on every gallon by using low grade as opposed to mid grade gives a savings of $13.6 from using water injection. That is assuming that the water injection has not improved fuel economy. Over the life of the car, 200,000 miles at 22 miles per gallon (or 9090.9 gallons) one still saves $909.09. Assuming now that water injection does increase fuel efficiency, every oil change (or115 gallons of gas) one still would save $11.5 on gas by running off of a lower octane fuel. This means that over the life of the car (7692.3 gallons at 26 miles per gallon) one saves $769.23. If this is added to the $2,600 saved from improved gas mileage, $3,369.23 is saved over the life of the car.
Whether water injection only gives an octane boost or if it also improves fuel mileage, one can save large amounts of money. Over the life of a Fiero, that could be between $900 and $3300. This figure doesn’t even take into account all the money that could be saved from lower repair costs due to less engine wear that water injection provides. Having to rebuild an engine can be costly, $2000-$3000 dollars. It also doesn’t take into account how much can be saved by running a car for longer, with out having to replace it. With less wear on the engine from cooler combustion temperatures, an engine could last 300,000 miles if taken care of on water injection compared to the same engine getting 200,000 miles not water injected. If one puts on 15,000 miles per year that’s six years and 8 months longer that a water injected car could last as opposed to one that’s not water injected. That could save lots of money by not having to buy a new car as soon.
It’s important now to look at the practicality of water injection. Water injection can give marginal performance increases for the normal vehicle, but its main benefit is improved gas mileage. This is important to some, but not everyone is concerned about it as is evident by the number of Hummers one can see driving on the road. Gas mileage can have a very important influence however on businesses and the government who operate under a strict budget. For business, transportation companies can benefit greatly, as well as airline companies, as water injection was use in aviation engines even before being used in cars. Airline companies would decrease their annual spending on gas and save money, which in their current economic situation, airline companies need to do. On the government end, public transportation could benefit greatly from water injection. Buses usually run around the clock with no one inside them, so if anyone needs to conserve fuel, it is them. While water injection has not been used much in diesel engines (buses use diesel engines), which operate a little different from gasoline engines, it has been experimented with by various people with similar results as gas engines. Boats use gasoline engines just like cars, so they could benefit greatly from water injection just as cars can. So whether one drives a car, truck, motorcycle, bus, plane, or boat, all can benefit from water injection, making it a very practical technology.
The economic impacts of water injection are vast. Water injection could potentially boost sales of SUV’s and other gas hungry vehicles at little cost to manufacturers (a top of the line water injection kit runs for around $300), while it could hurt their service department since vehicle reliability would increase. On the other hand, adding another system to a car adds another part that could fail, but mostly water injection would decrease the service business on engines since the price of replacing a water injection system is very little compared to rebuilding an engine. Over all improved gas mileage of the average vehicle would decrease the nation’s fuel consumption and decrease its dependence on foreign oil, which may decrease the desire to tax gas and slow down the upward spiral of gas prices. If water injection gains popularity, it would boost sales and revenue of companies that produce water injection kits, like Aquamist. Since consumers are spending less money on gas, which goes to foreign wallets, they would be spending their money on other things and putting it back into the American economy.
Looking at all the data and benefits of water injection, it is easy to see it being the next direction that engines will go. As gas prices increase and gas supply decreases, consumers will be looking at alternatives to the current standards. Alternate fuels like E-85 and hydrogen are a long way off from being commonly used, and are expensive to change over to. With this in mind, water injection is a nice stepping stone between normal gasoline combustion engines and alternate fuel vehicles of the future. Water injection therefore is important to consumers now, giving them increased gas mileage and more power, as well as being important in smoothing the path toward progress and the technology of the future.


Works Cited
Chuck, Hawks. The Best Fighter Planes of World War II . <http://www.chuckhawks.com/best_fighter_planes.htm>.
Water Injection history during WWII

FAQ. <http://aquamist.co.uk>.
Water injection performance statistics

Home Page. <http://www.facts.com>.
Octane facts, water injection facts, fuel emission facts, fuel combustion facts.

Home Page. <http://www.howstuffworks.com>.
Information on Octane, engine timing, and steam engines

Home Page. <http://www.twa800.com>.
Information on water injection in commercial aircraft

"Report cites jet crash causes." The St. Petersburge Times 29 June 1989.
Military crash with out water injection

Ron Novak's Do-It-Yoursself Water Injection System. 1980. 14 Dec. 2004 <http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_motherearth/me3.html>.
Home made water injection kit and fuel saving statistics
Works Cited Cont.
Titanic's Engines. <http://www.titanic-titanic.com/engine%20room.shtml>.
Steam engine statistics

Water Injection Wizardry. <http://www.notherearthnews.com/arc/2248>.
Home made water injection and performance statistics

Works Referenced
Aquamist. <http://www.jeepsunlimited.com>.
Aquamist water injection facts

"Canadians asked to conserve oil." Toronto Star 20 June 1981.
Water Injection fuel efficiency rates

Homemade water injection page. <http://users.frii.com/maphill/wi.html>.
Water injection statistics

Home Page. <http://en.wikipedia.org/>.
conversion factors

Home Page. <http://www.noswizard.com/water.php>.
Water Injection history and facts

Home Page. <http://www.s-ohe.com/water.html>.
water data


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86fierofun
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Report this Post06-01-2005 12:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post
Here is how it will work (after I fix the leak problem)

http://www.geocities.com/bond_jamesbond2001/fiero3.html

click on the bottom picture

[This message has been edited by 86fierofun (edited 06-01-2005).]

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Report this Post06-01-2005 12:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageSend a Private Message to BlacktreeDirect Link to This Post
This is very interesting. I've also been pondering water injection on a N/A engine. But the articles I've read range anywhere from "it's mana from God" to "it blew up my engine". So I, for one, would be interested in your test results.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 06-01-2005).]

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Dennis LaGrua
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Report this Post06-01-2005 03:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis LaGruaSend a Private Message to Dennis LaGruaDirect Link to This Post
Well if anything all the steam generated by the water injection system will keep those combustion chambers clean but I'll place a friendly wager that with water injection the dyno numbers go down. Water does not increase but decreases the energy capacity of gasoline. Do you really want water in your gas? If you want more power throw a small shot of nitrous in and you'll be surprised at the results However, go easy on the Duke as it's not a strong engine made for racing.
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Report this Post06-01-2005 04:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
I dunno how the air filter can works on the duke, but on the V6, the center area is BEFORE the filter, so what you have would be making your air filter wet. but, looking at the pics, I see thats not the case for the dukie. Other than that, the only problem is working out how much to spray, there is a point where it'll cut the power of the fuel/air mix, and also a point where it can cause excessive compression. Water also does a GREAT job of cleaning out the carbon, so you should have nice shiney internals. you should be able to crank a bit more timing advance. myself, I'd think replacing the water with NO2 would be much more fun!
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ryan.hess
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Report this Post06-01-2005 05:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ryan.hessSend a Private Message to ryan.hessDirect Link to This Post
Be careful - there are 3 failure modes...

1) Water soaks the air filter, and it collapses
2) Flow rate is too high for the engine, and you hydrostatic lock. Good for bending rods.
3) Water finds a place to pool in the intake manifold, and the next WOT you do, it sucks the whole pool into a cylinder. also good for bending rods.

1 and 2 are easy enough to prevent though. You just have to carefully watch for #3 depending on the manifold's shape.

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Report this Post06-01-2005 05:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for foxxman25Send a Private Message to foxxman25Direct Link to This Post
I have a computer controlled water injection kit sitting out in the garage waiting to be installed on my GTP. WI is great for fighting detonation but I don't know how much it will actually help you on your low compression NA engine. I'm interested in seeing your results.

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Low 14 sec 99 Pontiac GTP, 3.2L V6 4 sp 86 Fiero GT

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86fierofun
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Report this Post06-06-2005 01:17 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post
Well, I have redone the fuel pump and tank setup so that it doesnt pump water everywhere. I got my injector in the mail, so now I am working on wiring the injector into the car. Does anyone know the voltage that a v6 injector works off of? Or the current? thanks.
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Report this Post06-07-2005 12:08 AM Click Here to See the Profile for JncomuttSend a Private Message to JncomuttDirect Link to This Post
A FUEL injector won't spray water. It will spray it for a very short time then it will rust out. I don't mean months either, water will ruin the injector VERY quickly...
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watts
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Report this Post06-07-2005 12:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wattsSend a Private Message to wattsDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 86fierofun:
Does anyone know the voltage that a v6 injector works off of? Or the current? thanks.

As stated above... don't run water through one!

But to answer your question.... 12V, and they draw ROUGHLY 1.5 amps. They are also designed to be run in very short pulses.

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Report this Post06-07-2005 02:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post
As long as I keep the fuel injector in a closed system, it will be good long enough to do the test. but yes it does rust up, and quickly. i am running distilled water, and it is a sealed system. so as long as I dont run it dry, i should be fine.
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Report this Post06-07-2005 08:22 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ditchSend a Private Message to ditchDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by watts:


They are also designed to be run in very short pulses.

On that note, I'm wondering if it will work with just straight voltage applied to it. I thought they had to be sent pulses in order to fire. If so he might have to wire it into the fuel injector wiring on the TB. Maybe split the wires to run the second injector.

Dave

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watts
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Report this Post06-07-2005 10:35 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wattsSend a Private Message to wattsDirect Link to This Post
Here's a tie in with your electronics class now!

Build a pulse width modulator circuit (big enough to drive the injector), and tap the TPS. Have the pulse width vary based on it's position (the resistance range is pretty easy to determine). Or you could tap the output side of it (which will vary from about 0.8-5V).

But... you can't just turn it on and leave it on... it'll cook itself to death in short order.

Oh, and what is it from, and what pressure are you running to it?

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WikedV6
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Report this Post06-07-2005 10:49 AM Click Here to See the Profile for WikedV6Send a Private Message to WikedV6Direct Link to This Post
I don't think that Fuel pump will last if you use to pump water with it, you may need a pump that can handle water and use like a Aquamist nozzle for the spray.

Good luck
Prasad

------------------
"Turbo Cars are like hot women. A little edgy, every guy wants one, some guys can't handle them, and if you throw a little alchohol in the mix they'll rock your world"
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1984SE 5 Speed W/SBC V8
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Report this Post06-07-2005 03:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for createnm2Send a Private Message to createnm2Direct Link to This Post
While I know it is not possible in this setup or any aftermarket. Wouldn't it be better to have the water directly injected into the cylinder just after the intake valve closes or just after ignition to ensure no water has already converted to steam and get the most power potential from the water to steam expansion.
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Report this Post06-07-2005 05:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fie RoSend a Private Message to Fie RoDirect Link to This Post
Though I like "selfbuild" stuff...one of the benefits of waterinjection is those parts are already cheap to get. Heres a kit for $239

Most of the kits have a 100psi or bigger pump (v6 fuelpump only puts out around 40psi) and a matched nozzle to get the best atomising of the waterspray...which is needed for maximum effect.

[This message has been edited by Fie Ro (edited 06-07-2005).]

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Blacktree
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Report this Post06-07-2005 09:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for BlacktreeClick Here to visit Blacktree's HomePageSend a Private Message to BlacktreeDirect Link to This Post
Couldn't you just piggyback the water injector's wiring onto the existing fuel injector? Besides needing a beefier fuel injector fuse, what else would prevent you from doing that?

[EDIT] Just thought of something... if the Duke's fuel injector doesn't compare favorably to the V6 injector (referring to flow rate), you might swamp the engine.

I think a TPS-controlled pump with a spray nozzle might be more practical.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 06-07-2005).]

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86fierofun
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Report this Post09-10-2005 12:16 AM Click Here to See the Profile for 86fierofunSend a Private Message to 86fierofunDirect Link to This Post
ok, i put that on the back burner for a long while. he he. oh well. Well, I have gotten back to thinking about it. I noticed I didn't respond to a lot of the responces. so,

my initial set up was more of just a test, untill I got the parts I needed, which I did, but then did nothing with them. Here is my plan for a working system. pump would be set up the same way, and as long as I never let the water run down for sufficient oxygen to enter and rust up the pump, I don't think rust will be a big problem. The pump will be used often (theoretically) so seizing from any rust that might be there hopefully wouldn't happen. I considered putting in a simple sediment filter of some kind, maybe a fuel filter before getting to the injector in case of any contaminants, but I don't know if a fuel filter would rust either. So, I would mount the injector (from a v-6 by the way) just next to the tbi injector on the air cleaner lid. For electronics, I would like to see if it is possible to just parallel the signal going to the tbi injector, but I don't know if it would give me the proper fuel to water ratio that I would need, and it is not user adjustable that way. So I was thinking of putting a signal splitter in line with the electronics that goes to the tbi injector that also has a built in off switch (when off, the electronics would operate as if the splitter wasn't there), then run the tapped signal to a converter that would swith the pulses to a steady level, which would in turn could be amplified or tuned to user preferences and then chop it up again to a pulse. But, that will take some engineering and a good amount of time. I was wondering if anyone knew what flow rate coresponds to a specified pulse time/width for each injector, the 4 and 6 cyl. and I also was wondering if running a water/alchohol mix to prevent freezing in winter would also help prevent the pump from rusting inside? Is the voltage to run the 6 cyl injector +12 or something different? and does anyone have another pump to donate for testing purposes?

To answer someone's question, yes they do sell many many kits out there for water injection, but what is the fun in that?? Also, $200-$300 for a kit is a lot to me right now, I would rather put that into tires and suspention, or a paint job

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