OK here is my version... on Fiero #1 of now TWO 1986 se's..

http://www.ammoman.com/fiero/Rotted19.htm

Started it today when UPS showed up with my rack and just three hours later it is now about 95% done (just needs pump and lines) - This with very minor adaptation needed to the cross-member

Enjoy !

Rob in NH
1986se (no more Duke) and Isuzu 5-speed (down to the cabin)
1986se automatic V6 (bought 5-9-05)

Excellent website that shows the build. Even I could follow your instructions.

Not to take anything away from your project but once the car is moving I think the non-power steering provides very good road feel. (At least with my tire and suspension setup). Let me know how the car feels with power steering. I am curious to hear if the road feedback is still there.

Besides, the steering is just heavy enough to make my wife not want to drive it.

Excellent write-up! I look forward to more entries.

Nolan

If you also add oil injection to the surface of your tires it should complete the project and fully elminate that anyoning feel for the road. Just think of the fun, a P.S. Fiero in the rain on twisty road! Sorry to rain on your project, but one of biggest assets of the Fiero is handing. Just because something can be done, don't always mean it should be done. I really hope it does not come back to bite you some day.

Thanks!

The power rack Fiero also had a 1" bigger S-10 blazer wheel added to it with a Fiero GT horn button, What a GREAT FIT !

http://www.ammoman.com/fiero/NewestWheel006.jpg

so that should help a little also..

I'll let you know how the thing steers.., Soon as its back on 4 wheels.. hahaha

Oh the hard-steering thing was one of the first complaints by owners in 84', I read that they were cutting-out the steering dampner?

Is that what made it so freaking HARD to turn in the first place?
(mine was broken as you can see.. So that added to its disabilities)

Rob

[This message has been edited by BERKELUSA (edited 05-11-2005).]

Great info just about to start the same soon + for you.

quote Originally posted by Francis T: If you also add oil injection to the surface of your tires it should complete the project and fully elminate that anyoning feel for the road. Just think of the fun, a P.S. Fiero in the rain on twisty road! Sorry to rain on your project, but one of biggest assets of the Fiero is handing. Just because something can be done, don't always mean it should be done. I really hope it does not come back to bite you some day.

"Raise a little boys hopes, then SMASH all his DREAMS !" - (grandpa in Willy Wonka)

Francis I have two 86se's and ones for parts, When done I'll have a convertible 5-speed V6 with a full sub-frame and a wheelbase that is 5" inches longer.., More than likely a custom body in STEEL also..

I'm 6-4" inches tall and just pushing the clutch in with my shattered left leg that now has a stainless tube and six screws in it is a real trick, But I havent given up on the car despite the ROT have I??

It's a matter of control.. nevermind "feeling the road", Ever have your wheel ripped out of your hands fighting it in a turn?

Imagine punching it, breaking the rearend out and loosing it because you couldnt hold the wheel.., See you in the ditch..

If you remember the reports on TV that bashed our little cars then you would know that the complaints about the Fiero was the fact that it had no power steering.. the other was the extremely wide turning radius..

"Just because something can be done, don't always mean it should be done"
Another non-welder, no imagination...

So what If I make my car the way I want it.., Its MINE RIGHT?, Isn't that what a car is all about?, PERSONALITY of the one driving it??

Your "oil injection to the surface of your tires" remark was just plain stoo-pid...

C'mon I wouldnt type something like that on your post..

Rob

[This message has been edited by BERKELUSA (edited 05-12-2005).]

Awesome write up...right click, save as....

When the time comes for me to do power steering I'm going to follow these instructions. Three hours huh? That looks like a month's worth of work to me. A "+" for you.

I love the idea for this project i am supprised none of the people on here ever thought of it. I personally like the "feel of the road" but sometimes after a long workout at the Gym I rather have power steering for the ride home lol.

IMO: I think feed back on a fiero is very key to controling it, the fiero drivers with stock suspension know when they are on the verge of spinning out in a hard turn due to the feedback. If you take that away you will most likely turn even more into a hard turn and either slide into the wall or curb or what not, or spin your back end out in front of ya.

Just be safe and practice driving it like its your first time in the car. If you like it better and the handling is more responsive let us all know we will be much awaiting the completion of this project. A+

Exactly!, See I would rather have the power TO spin the car around on a dime when say it was breaking the rearend out because I punched the gas too hard then NOT having the power to do so..

The additional wheel-base is not just to stretch the thing, A longer car tends to SPIN less.., Just as a wider track on the wheels tends to roll less.. (and I'm making a new rear frame so why not..)

Ever punched the gas in a 74' Vette and almost lost it?, A good reason (like the Fiero) is because your so close to the rear wheels that your mind is thinking "turn out of it.. and hit the brakes" when what you really should do is "get on it" and yank yourself out of the spin turning in the direction of the skid like you were on ice..

Ever fishtail for 1/2 mile in a Vette?, It's called CONTROL.., Cant do it with a manual steering Vette.. your arms will fall OFF hahhaa

Rob

[This message has been edited by BERKELUSA (edited 05-12-2005).]

i did a power steering conversion on my 88GT and it's absolutly awesome, i used the camaro power steering rack though so it's 2.25 turns lock to lock. The fast ratio is increadable, i can go around a hair pin or a spin cone and not even have to take my hands off the wheel. Being able to turn in fast really compliments the 88 suspension

quote Originally posted by Zac88GT: i did a power steering conversion on my 88GT and it's absolutly awesome, i used the camaro power steering rack though so it's 2.25 turns lock to lock. The fast ratio is increadable, i can go around a hair pin or a spin cone and not even have to take my hands off the wheel. Being able to turn in fast really compliments the 88 suspension

Do you have a write up? Wanna do another?

quote Originally posted by Francis T: If you also add oil injection to the surface of your tires it should complete the project and fully elminate that anyoning feel for the road. Just think of the fun, a P.S. Fiero in the rain on twisty road! Sorry to rain on your project, but one of biggest assets of the Fiero is handing. Just because something can be done, don't always mean it should be done. I really hope it does not come back to bite you some day.

Not sure where you are going with this but it looks like you dont like power steering in a Fiero? I put a Camaro SS Power rack in my 88GT and LOVE it. If you have never driven one then maybe you should tone it down a bit? I took my power steering 3.5 S* 88GT on SEVERAL trips and let several people drive it, and I can say that I worked ALLOT less than they did in the curves On the Stimpy run my hands NEVER lifted off the steering wheel to make extreem hairpin turns. With the VERY close ratio power rack I lost NO "road feel" I drove this car on the Song Man Coast run with the power steering and it was WAAAAAAY better than the year before without power steering. OH and by the way I heard lots of squeling tires in the curves but mine never even made a sound, Did the power steering hurt my handling? I think not. And yes I do drive it and yes it does rain. What is the problem with rain and power steering? It rained on me up at Bass Lake on the twisty mountain roads and I NEVER even skipped a beat. Just drive safely for conditions and you will be good, if the car is set up right.

BERKLUSA, I would HIGHLY sugest you reconsider putting adapters at the ends of the tie rods. That would move the inner tie rod in so far that it will affect the bump steer. And if you offset the rack to one side a little the bumpsteer will be much wors on one side than the other. I would sugest you put the adapters between the inner tierods and the rack gear. That way you can use the stock Fiero tie rods and not affect the steering geomitry.

Not to takover the thread, this how I did the "F" body rack in my 88GT. I got a Chevette rack first but tosed it when I saw all the draw backs of that type of rack and did the "F" body rack.
BERK have fun with your rack. I think ALL pre88 Fiero's should have a good power steering system. The 88 is good without it but better with it as long as it is a faster ratio than the stock manual rack.
https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archives/Archive-000002/HTML/20050410-1-044587.html

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correct me if i am wrong but if you change the width of the steering rack dont you change the the way car steers. the skinnier the rack the more bump steer you get right?

GREAT website you have there! It's always cool to see someone try something new... hope that last 5% goes as smoothly as the first 95!

Make sure you post some pics of you holding a drink in one hand while parallel parking! I'm sure that's rare in a Fiero unless you're Ahnold.

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quote Originally posted by FieroRumor: GREAT website you have there! It's always cool to see someone try something new... hope that last 5% goes as smoothly as the first 95!

Actually your backwards.. the closer together the pivot point to the center of the frame the less bump-steer.., So with the Chevette rack being narrower its for the better of the ride..

a good reason the WS6 rear arms are longer ~!, More horizontal hold and a longer distance for the vibration to fade-out because the arms dont go a foot then END like the stockers (but thats the back end), The front no matter what you do remains the same pivot point..

IF you could move the pivot-point to the center of the frame at the front by making the upper and lower A-arms longer the radial arch of the swing would be minimal and there would be no bump-steer (hit a bump wheel ripped from your hands)

Remember the poor Fiero is 20+ years old and were all riding around on dried up rubber bushings unless they have been changed to urethane or replaced with new ones.. (cheap lately on Ebay if you havent noticed)

A 1/4" thick layer of rubber anywhere absorbs more road-noise than any shock absorber, I mean this as in "high frequency", Not the kind of absortion that takes the actual HIT of say a pot-hole.., Carrying a signal a further distance allows it to fade out into the frame, Cutting it short carries it over to the frame where you really feel it.., Adding rubber cushions the long-term abuse...

Heres an example: Tennis players use racquets that now have tiny rubber balls in the handle to absorb the hit of the ball.., Thus less tennis-elbow (2 feet away no less), It doesnt take much to kill high-frequency with rubber, But if you dont whatever its connected to can be destroyed.., in our case we "feel the road" more..

Thanks Rumor...

Rob

[This message has been edited by BERKELUSA (edited 05-13-2005).]

Great work Rob..... I put PS in mine using a 87-89 Dakota rack. Best thing I ever did, wish I had done it sooner. My car (Koenig Competition replica)has a 7" stretch, with 1" /side added in front, 4" /side in the rears. Needless to say, 255 45 17 frt, 275 40 17 rear, this required 'ARMSTRONG' steering with a small Ferrari steering wheel. The roadfeel is still there, albeit, not as harsh as standard, but with the added relief of the steering wheel not being ripped from your hands when large wheels decide to follow a pothole or rut!
Two Points..... I have extensions on the ends of my rack and have 0 problems with 'bumpsteer'. Also, try your rack out, if your do get some bumpsteer, slot your rack mounts to raise or lower the rack. The idea is to find your 'sweet' spot with your suspension at ride height. (Most tight suspensions use less than 2" of actual travel, so finding that perfect rack height will just add to your enjoyment. You would be surprised at what raising or lowering the rack 1/4" will do for bumpsteer. If you know your actual ride height, just set your system up without the coils/springs and raise & lower the knuckles. You will see the transformation (in or out) and can quickly adjust the rack for the optimum placement. "YELLOW88" did a writeup a while back, it was helpful for me.
good luck and enjoy, the 'naysayers' don't realise what they're missing!
Sandy
Note: upon reviewing your mounts, you may not be able to adjust your rack height without rewelding..... try the ride height view/test before putting it all back together.
my .02!

[This message has been edited by cowans (edited 05-12-2005).]

Rob,

Good job on the car!

You'd mentioned how hard it was to steer the thing. I think it also depends on tire size. I had custom rims on my orig 87GT, with wide tires. It was a bear to steer. I hated it. Then I had 225s in the front on stock 15s.. less of a bear, but still a pain. Recently I put on regular 205s, and steering was finally a lot more pleasant. Keep up the good work.

quote Originally posted by smartaxel: Rob, Good job on the car! You'd mentioned how hard it was to steer the thing. I think it also depends on tire size. I had custom rims on my orig 87GT, with wide tires. It was a bear to steer. I hated it. Then I had 225s in the front on stock 15s.. less of a bear, but still a pain. Recently I put on regular 205s, and steering was finally a lot more pleasant. Keep up the good work.

Thanks all of you ! - Im not lowering or raising, Just keeping stock height.. thus the same mounts in same position (wife calls it snow-plowing), Let me say that your also correct in the rack positioning.. IF you lower your car say 2" and dont move the rack UP the 2" you just added bump-steer to the factory setup.. At "ride height" the rods on the rack should be level end to end or a slight degree pointing down so when you get IN the car they are level.. We used sand-bags in the driver seat on the track cars that were set to the weight of the passenger.., Just remember you need to go UP with the rack and not forward..

Another good point you mention is the tire width, A wider track touching the street of course more strength to turn the monsters no matter how light the rims are.. grip adds drag to the wheel when its a manual.., Try adding 185-60-15" VW skinn wheels to your Fiero after having the fat ones on for a month.. Its just like adding power steering.. and as earlier mentioned.. You wont need to go to the Gym anymore!

Quote: "You'd mentioned how hard it was to steer the thing."
Yeah.. this was a good reason of most of that DRAG hahhaa

Rob

quote Originally posted by BERKELUSA: Actually your backwards.. the closer together the pivot point to the center of the frame the less bump-steer.., So with the Chevette rack being narrower its for the better of the ride.. a good reason the LS6 rear arms are longer ~!, More horizontal hold and a longer distance for the vibration to fade-out because the arms dont go a foot then END like the stockers (but thats the back end), The front no matter what you do remains the same pivot point.. IF you could move the pivot-point to the center of the frame at the front by making the upper and lower A-arms longer the radial arch of the swing would be minimal and there would be no bump-steer (hit a bump wheel ripped from your hands) Rob

You got it wrong, the rear of a Vette does not steer so it is set up totaly diferent than our front Fiero suspension. We NEED the inner tie rod (ball joints) to be located in the correct posion. That is the exact center of the upper and lower "A" arm pivit. If you make a line between the two with the wheels forward the inner tie rod should be very close to that line. That way the the radial arc of the tie rod follows the "A" arms and stays the same length without changing the toe. If you move the inner tierods in or out of the factory sweet spot they will not have the same arc any more. That will add bump steer to your car if they are moved in towards the center or out towards the wheels. And the added length changes the geomitry too.
As far as full blown race cars go, they are also totaly diferent and so "dialed in" that the set up is changed from track to track. Our street cars need to work EVERYWERE we go.

People have been doing the Chevette power rack for over 10 years so I picked one up for my self to do it after seeing a write up like yours. But for my taste the Chevette was out gunned by the "F" body rack.

Great write-up! I'd give you a +, but it loods like I gave you one already!

Come on everyone this well worth the A+ rateing.

I kind of thought my remarks would start a fire.... I'm an old dude and have owned lots of cars, both with and without PS and never found my Fiero to be needing PS. I drive it hard and never had it want to pull the wheel from my hands. Maybe mine is just spot-on handling-wise and that's why I feel that way? As for those 'customer complaints' I don't suppose all that many of them were performance car nuts, more liklely they were people wanting a neat looking econo box. To them the heavy at 'parking speeds' was probably their real complaint and the Fiero can be bear to park at times. Sorry to be so negitive, PS in a Fiero to me just seems to be an over kill. My 86GT when I first got it handled horriable. Then I put better tires on it and had it aliened by a pro, what a difference! That said, good luck with the project and I really do hope it works out for you.

This is set up is nothing new, but your documentation is fantastic. I am using the same set-up and for a pump I am using the MR2 electric pump. Here is another site with a build thread. Jason has the part numbers for the correct steering joint as well Nice Job!

http://jason.kitcarmagazine.com/Current_Progress/Exterior/PowerSteering.asp

Thanks\
Msaby

quote Originally posted by BERKELUSA: Exactly!, See I would rather have the power TO spin the car around on a dime when say it was breaking the rearend out because I punched the gas too hard then NOT having the power to do so.. The additional wheel-base is not just to stretch the thing, A longer car tends to SPIN less.., Just as a wider track on the wheels tends to roll less.. (and I'm making a new rear frame so why not..) Ever punched the gas in a 74' Vette and almost lost it?, A good reason (like the Fiero) is because your so close to the rear wheels that your mind is thinking "turn out of it.. and hit the brakes" when what you really should do is "get on it" and yank yourself out of the spin turning in the direction of the skid like you were on ice.. Ever fishtail for 1/2 mile in a Vette?, It's called CONTROL.., Cant do it with a manual steering Vette.. your arms will fall OFF hahhaa Rob

It would be interseting to drive a Fiero with PS. I'd line up to do that. One thing I realized agian and remebered from over seven years ago [that's how long my 85 GT has been sitting in the garage] was that I had to tuck my right elbow in to avoid hitting the center console. I wonder if the PS would 'fix' that?

I envy you! It sounds like you are having a blast with these 'projects' and I wish I knew how to weld, etc. Hmmm ... Think I'll ask my nephew to teach me how!

Best of luck. I'll be watching for more updates.

quote Originally posted by Francis T: I kind of thought my remarks would start a fire.... I'm an old dude and have owned lots of cars, both with and without PS and never found my Fiero to be needing PS. I drive it hard and never had it want to pull the wheel from my hands. Maybe mine is just spot-on handling-wise and that's why I feel that way? As for those 'customer complaints' I don't suppose all that many of them were performance car nuts, more liklely they were people wanting a neat looking econo box. To them the heavy at 'parking speeds' was probably their real complaint and the Fiero can be bear to park at times. Sorry to be so negitive, PS in a Fiero to me just seems to be an over kill. My 86GT when I first got it handled horriable. Then I put better tires on it and had it aliened by a pro, what a difference! That said, good luck with the project and I really do hope it works out for you.

Actually Francis no biggie as like emails web-boards carry no feelings, Punch me if you like, Im married ! (so used to it) hahaha

I Just wanted to explain what I was doing is all.. and what I meant by power.. not taking over, but helping turn the thing as opposed to those old manual racks.., As you see mine was rotted junk and broken.. probably get a new one for $150 or get a power one for $60 like I did..

And yes NEW tires are like night and day!, Width of tires tho really adds to the "road feel" because your fighting the wheel so much and as you said, with a bad alignment forget it!, You will be fighting the car all the way to the bank!

Oh yeah.. NEW PAGE !

http://www.ammoman.com/fiero/Rotted20.htm

Rob

Clever fabrication project but you'll add weight when you add the pump, hoses and rack and lose critcial horsepower needed to drive the PS pump. This could mean the difference in a critical race where every 10th counts.

quote Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua: Clever fabrication project but you'll add weight when you add the pump, hoses and rack and lose critcial horsepower needed to drive the PS pump. This could mean the difference in a critical race where every 10th counts.

You missed something..

MR@ (bad word here) electric power steering pump up front
That and the fact that my trunk is GONE and will probably be aluminum IF its even replaced at all..

And im not racing.., Less the local PD is tryin to catch me right??

Ohhh the TICKETS !

Rob

CHEVETTE POWER RACK UPDATE:

Clearance made for the power Chevette rack...

Now its a bolt-ON with the new 1/4" thick steel plate mounts...

Full view, Just a few more brackets a little more welding...

The now BLACK RACK...

and the bright RED cross-member...

and last the space-frame's current status...

Regards
Rob

Hey Rob,

Thats great that the jeep's steering joint fit. Did you check the length of the shaft? If I remember correctly when I centered the rack in the Fiero the shaft was a little short. It may have been because I used the Flaming River u-joint though. Any idea how you are going to wire your pump or am I jumping ahead here. Great documentation very good read, keep it up.

Thanks
Msaby

TTT

I like the idea of "cheap" power steering. I see something here that I didn't see addressed above. (If you did I missed it... Sorry)

If I'm reading this right...

The new rack is shorter between the inner rod ends?

You do know that you change the front bump steer when you do this. I don't know if it will be better or worse for handling but you definitely do change it when you alter the length of the tie rods.

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Dr. Ian Malcolm: Yeah, but your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn't stop to think if they should.
(Jurasic Park)

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

quote Originally posted by theogre: I like the idea of "cheap" power steering. I see something here that I didn't see addressed above. (If you did I missed it... Sorry) If I'm reading this right... The new rack is shorter between the inner rod ends? You do know that you change the front bump steer when you do this. I don't know if it will be better or worse for handling but you definitely do change it when you alter the length of the tie rods.

The rack gear it self is much shorter than the Fiero rack gear. This will cause all kinds of problems if the "extensions" are placed on the ends of the tie rods. If the rack were to be mounted off center to acomidate the rack mounting, this would require a longer extension on one side than the other. Talking about strang handling? One side would have a diferent bump steer arc than the other side. But if the extensions were put on the rack gear it self inbetween the inner tie rod and rack gear, the bump steer would not be a problem. But you will need to make new steering rack gear stops and place them over the extensions to prevent over traveling the hydralic cylinder piston seals over the inlet and out let ports.