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My Koenig Power Steering Build..... by cowans
Started on: 02-23-2005 09:17 PM
Replies: 29
Last post by: cowans on 05-29-2005 08:04 PM
cowans
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Report this Post02-23-2005 09:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cowansClick Here to Email cowansSend a Private Message to cowansDirect Link to This Post

My Koenig Power Steering

I’ll start by stating that this project was for my setup! I don’t care for the naysayers, the ones that think that their Fieros don’t need it, etc.! This is MY build, my suspension is different, and should someone want to try this, I will not be responsible for anything, any way, shape, or form! With that out of the way, I will continue….
Various people have ask me to document my power steering setup, in the hopes that they may use some of it…. Hey, maybe something I’ve done will help someone…. That’s the point of this forum, isn’t it?
My car is a replica of a Koenig Competition, using a stretched(7”) and widened (4”per side rear,) Fiero chassis. An SBC is mated to an Isuzu 5spd. The wheel & tire combo are as follows 275-40-17rear, 255-45-17frt using a 17x9 18offset 3pc wheels. I was tired using ‘ArmStrong’ steering when parking, tight turns etc using the Fiero standard rack & pinion. I had looked at power steering racks, notably the Mercur rack that is becoming ‘hard to find’, the chevette rack(cheep)… Anyway, paid a visit to my local rebuilder, and they suggested a rack from a 87>89 Dakota. The Dakota rack has 3 >3.25 turns(basically the same as Fiero), same ball-end threads (M14x1.5), but a different mount would have to be built. The imput shaft is splined, but looking at the Dodge intermediateU-joint, I thought I could just change the splined lower piece with the upper Fiero universal joint….(more on that later).
The racks are about the same length (I don’t have those exact measurements right now, about .5 inch difference from my memory).
1st, I measured out the center of the new rebuilt rack, then found the center of my cross-member. When designing my new mount, I found that the left side Fiero mount had to go. Still being somewhat wary, I trimmed it off with a dremel, making sure that I could weld it back, if things screwed up! I used some 3x4” ‘U’ channel, cut the sides down, & bolted it(slotted holes to adjust((up or down)) later, if necessary) to my cross-member.(my cross-member has 3/8 plate added for strength!). I then bolted the 5/8”(thick!) Dakota rack bolts to it. I couldn’t believe it, things were going too well!!! The rack was lined up and waiting to be connected! As my old rack had been lengthened for my Koenig body, I had to add some length to the Dakota rack, and Held Motorsport came through with their 2” threaded adapters. (1” was enough).






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cowans
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Report this Post02-23-2005 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cowansClick Here to Email cowansSend a Private Message to cowansDirect Link to This Post

2nd, I needed to press out the intermediate U joint to adapt the Dakota splined one. Both U-joint looked the same (Dakota & Fiero) but as luck would have it, the Fiero U-joint holes were .575”, while the Dakota U-joint holes were .585, or there abouts! .010” difference, nothing that a reamer wouldn’t fix! Pressed out the 2 remaining u-joint caps(Dakota). Reamed out the 2 Fiero U-joint holes (intermediate shaft) and pressed in and punched the 4 sides to retain the needle caps.



3rd, used my SBC pump (had actually purchased a similar Dakota pump ((SBC fit better to the V8))), so that left the plumbing. Sliced both ends of the Dakota ‘old pressure hose’ off, carefully measured out my length(9.5’)warning: mine is stretched, and had a truck shop crimp the ends back on. The return hose was just some proper line hose and clamped to the ends. Routed the hoses along my passenger side water pipe, and connected them up!
When filled the reservoir with fluid, I decided to prime the rack using a drill to spin the pump(V-belt unattached!!!). That worked well, although the drill needed some RPM’s to actually pump! Hooked the V-belt back up. started the car, turned the wheel lock to lock a few times to bleed out any air, and HEY, I have Power!
The final statement to this is it has not been driven yet, as I live in the snowbelt end of life, and will only be able to test this mid-April.
finally, enjoy,
Sandy

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RockChip
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Report this Post02-23-2005 10:00 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RockChipSend a Private Message to RockChipDirect Link to This Post

I have never realy thought about power steering simply because I don't find my car hard to steer, But you make it sound so easy I almost want to go buy the parts and try it out

Is your crossmember the same width as the fieros?

Thanks for sharing this, I'm sure it could be easily adapted to a standard fiero.

+ for you

------------------
'86 Fiero GT 4spd, 3400 SFI , vented rear brakes, K&N filter, Cavalier seats, Celica GTS Rims, Mustang Scoop
'69 AMC Ambassador sst 2dr hardtop 390ci 3 spd B&M shift kit(315hp/427ftlbs)
'01 Yamaha YZ426F
'89 Acura Integra LS-winter beater

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Stinkin_V8
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Report this Post02-23-2005 11:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Stinkin_V8Send a Private Message to Stinkin_V8Direct Link to This Post

Sandy, I've said it before - I love your car. I was a fan of the Koenig TR when it came out way back when and I still have the Road&Track Supercars issue featuring it. If you don't mind, can I clarify a few points?

- Your front end (or at least the width between the knuckles) is not widened, right?
- Did you reinstall the front tub, and does it clear the power steering rack and lines, at least enough for the spare to be carried?

Thanks for sharing your work with us.

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cowans
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Report this Post02-24-2005 07:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cowansClick Here to Email cowansSend a Private Message to cowansDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Stinkin_V8:

Sandy, I've said it before - I love your car. I was a fan of the Koenig TR when it came out way back when and I still have the Road&Track Supercars issue featuring it. If you don't mind, can I clarify a few points?

- Your front end (or at least the width between the knuckles) is not widened, right?
- Did you reinstall the front tub, and does it clear the power steering rack and lines, at least enough for the spare to be carried?

Thanks for sharing your work with us.

Good questions, I knew when I wrote this up that I'd forget some things....! My steering, hub to hub, is about an inchor two longer overall, and I believe the Dakota rack would work as is in a regular Fiero. It's been 2 months since I did this and cannot remember past 15 minutes what the measurements were!
Yes, I DID cut the bottom of the tub out.... in fact I used some stainless plate across the frame members and attached the 'forward' side of the tub to finish it off and retain my brake line cross mounts (hard to explain), the car is stored at the moment, so yes, the tub was cut out.... (it just retains my battery!) ((my wheels would not fit as a spare anyway!))
One other thing I might add. The 'splined' unit only fits on the shaft in about 3 different positions (there is a flat spot ground into the joint. To get around this, I removed a tiny bit of the flat edges(Dremel) to allow the spline to connect at any position. This is a tight fit, with a Grade 8 bolt (instead of a roll pin) to retain it. The reason for this is the Fiero upper U-joint only connects 1 way to the steering colunm, and the splined connected can now be adjusted to center the rack vs steering colunm. There is another option and that is to purchase a ready built Ujoint adapter from a Hotrod shop.
thanks, Sandy
Oh 'Rockchip' my crossmember is the same width, my suspension ends/sides are different! here's a pic, not great, but it's the only one I've got on my 'work' PC!

[This message has been edited by cowans (edited 02-24-2005).]

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RCR
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Report this Post02-24-2005 08:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRClick Here to Email RCRSend a Private Message to RCRDirect Link to This Post

Thanx for posting the info Sandy. Great job, as expected.

Bob

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mrfixit58
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Report this Post02-24-2005 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for mrfixit58Click Here to Email mrfixit58Send a Private Message to mrfixit58Direct Link to This Post

Sandy - Thanks for posting this build-up. One of my long term project goals is to add power steering to make my drive experience more enjoyable. If the Dakota rack can be installed with only the minor modifications as you've documented, it looks a very do-able project.

A couple of questions - You mentioned that the rack width is 1/2" side-to-side, the same as the Fiero rack. Is this difference measured from the inner tie rod ends or the outer? If the outer, is there enough thread cut this 1/2" off and still have room for toe adjustments?

Also, you've got a PM.

Thanks again,
Roy

------------------
Roy

double-click on this link to follow my interior build-up http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/023174.html

Blue 87 GT w/ 4th generation Firebird interior.
Suncoast Fieros

Judged "Best Custom Interior" at the 20th Anniversary Show @ Pontiac, Mich - 7/2003
Judged "Best Custom Interior" at the 8th Annual Fiero Fun Weekend @ Daytona - 3/2004

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Report this Post02-24-2005 09:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for CajunClick Here to Email CajunSend a Private Message to CajunDirect Link to This Post


Great build and great job Sandy. Keep the info flowing.

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cowans
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Report this Post02-24-2005 10:40 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cowansClick Here to Email cowansSend a Private Message to cowansDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by mrfixit58:

A couple of questions - You mentioned that the rack width is 1/2" side-to-side, the same as the Fiero rack. Is this difference measured from the inner tie rod ends or the outer? If the outer, is there enough thread cut this 1/2" off and still have room for toe adjustments?
Also, you've got a PM.
Thanks again,
Roy


Roy, I made a quick call to my rack rebuilder and now have the measurements for the racks!
Fiero rack= 46 1/4" (inner tierod threads, before ball joint)
Dakota rack= 45 1/2" (inner tierod threads, before ball joint)
so there's a total of 3/4" difference to be divided in 2(both ends) to an actual of 3/8" per end (for Fiero use) to make up.(normally, there is about 3/4" threaded together(inner>outer)) As my outer tierod/balljoints were already cutdown (from my 1st rack) I had to order up some 2" threaded spacers from Helds.
Using a Fiero measurment (46 1/4") you would have to verify if you indeed have enough thread to safely just screw on the outer tierods without any threaded spacer. The Dakota rack has about 1.5 inches of thread at each end (from memory). Anyway, you could get a Die and make more threads(M14x1.5), add spacer, and cut to size.
thanks all,
Sandy
Roy... PM back to ya

[This message has been edited by cowans (edited 02-24-2005).]

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fiero308
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Report this Post02-24-2005 12:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fiero308Send a Private Message to fiero308Direct Link to This Post

hey Sandy
I think everybody loves looking at your car. Great thread and info.
One thing that I was looking for and didn't see - have you changed the distance between your ball joints; ie between the left to the right sides or is that width still stock fiero? ie did you widen the front frame and everything with it or are you using spacers or offsets at the wheels only to achieve your wider stance?

thx!
gp

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mrfixit58
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Report this Post02-24-2005 01:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for mrfixit58Click Here to Email mrfixit58Send a Private Message to mrfixit58Direct Link to This Post

Sandy - Fantastic info. With only 3/8" difference per side, I would doubt that it would affect the bump steer too much. From the pictures and your discription, adding the Dakota power steering rack seems pretty straight forward. It sure makes me want to start my 3.4 DOHC project.

Thanks again,
Roy

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cowans
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Report this Post02-24-2005 06:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cowansClick Here to Email cowansSend a Private Message to cowansDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fiero308:

hey Sandy
I think everybody loves looking at your car. Great thread and info.
One thing that I was looking for and didn't see - have you changed the distance between your ball joints; ie between the left to the right sides or is that width still stock fiero? ie did you widen the front frame and everything with it or are you using spacers or offsets at the wheels only to achieve your wider stance?

thx!
gp


Hi Graeme, My front frame is the same, ie: the cross-member is the same measurements! The outer A arm & lower supports are wider. My original Fiero rack had longer inner tie rods than stock... so yes, my overall width is about 1.5>2" more than stock. Here's a pic of the left side.... please keep in mind that the shock is extended so the arms are not ride height! You will see Held's 2"spacer attached.

Roy... as far as 'bumpsteer' I won't know until this Spring.... But that's why I slotted the mount to the cross-member, to raise or lower the rack, if need be.
Sandy

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gladiator
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Report this Post02-24-2005 10:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gladiatorSend a Private Message to gladiatorDirect Link to This Post

Your car is pre-88, right? I'm just curious whether this will work on my 86.

Thanks
Gary

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David Bartlett
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Report this Post02-25-2005 12:45 AM Click Here to See the Profile for David BartlettClick Here to Email David BartlettSend a Private Message to David BartlettDirect Link to This Post

Whats the model year(s) of this Dakota rack?

[This message has been edited by David Bartlett (edited 02-25-2005).]

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cowans
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Report this Post02-25-2005 07:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cowansClick Here to Email cowansSend a Private Message to cowansDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by gladiator:

Your car is pre-88, right? I'm just curious whether this will work on my 86.

Thanks
Gary

Gary, mine is an 86 chassis...what's left of it anyway!!!
David..." a rack from a 87>89 Dakota." a 2 wheel drive unit.... The later year Dakotas changed their inner tierod threads!
Sandy

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fiero308
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Report this Post02-25-2005 07:57 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fiero308Send a Private Message to fiero308Direct Link to This Post

good pic Sandy; the upper arm is custom but is the lower just extended or is it all custom too? 1000 words.

The year make model stuff is important; I just widened my front end by 1 5/8" each side so had to get inner tie rods from a dodge product too (D50 IIRC) and they applied to CERTAIN models and not others; PLUS I had to specify that it was the Dodge product that came with a particular type of rack......... so there were variances even within model years! Maybe it would be good to put in any particulars you have for the followers of this topic.

Maybe I will copy all this and put it on a CD for later; in case I find my steering too heavy. But I am trying to be weight conscious (at some expense of creature comfort - no A/C....) so for now I am hoping to not add any weight.
Good idea putting this up.

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Report this Post02-25-2005 08:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KohburnSend a Private Message to KohburnDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fiero308:

good pic Sandy; the upper arm is custom but is the lower just extended or is it all custom too? 1000 words.

The year make model stuff is important; I just widened my front end by 1 5/8" each side so had to get inner tie rods from a dodge product too (D50 IIRC) and they applied to CERTAIN models and not others; PLUS I had to specify that it was the Dodge product that came with a particular type of rack......... so there were variances even within model years! Maybe it would be good to put in any particulars you have for the followers of this topic.

Maybe I will copy all this and put it on a CD for later; in case I find my steering too heavy. But I am trying to be weight conscious (at some expense of creature comfort - no A/C....) so for now I am hoping to not add any weight.
Good idea putting this up.

you need AC in canada ?

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fiero308
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Report this Post02-25-2005 10:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for fiero308Send a Private Message to fiero308Direct Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by Kohburn:


you need AC in canada ?


LOL
those 3 days of summer are HOT, man!!!!

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cowans
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Report this Post03-28-2005 08:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cowansClick Here to Email cowansSend a Private Message to cowansDirect Link to This Post

Ressurected this thread to comment on my pwr steering 'TEST' drive. Finally the weather has warmed up enough to pull the Koenig out to test the power steering....(and go for a drive!) ./ All I can say is I should have built this in years ago! This SMILE when not having to 'muscle' the car around in a tight spot was great. I was a little nervous and drove fairly conservative, all the while my brain was 'rechecking' myself... have I tightened everything?, everything locked down?, all cotter pins in place??? I became more confident and ventured out on a bypass... everything seemed good, tight. So, now to the highway... hey, this is fun, no effort at all, 120....140...1?0,(yes, kms)! Back to my garage, I'm so happy.Not only do I not have any leaks, or strange noises, looseness, etc. but even without a machine alignment yet, I can take my hands off the steering wheel at speed and it goes STRAIGHT, no pull, no edging over, nothing. I have large wheels, sticky tires.. 255 45 17 fronts, 275 40 17 rears. What a joy to motor into the garage with a finger doing the steering!
I absolutely love this mod.... should have done this years ago!
Sandy

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RCR
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Report this Post03-28-2005 01:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RCRClick Here to Email RCRSend a Private Message to RCRDirect Link to This Post

Congrats Sandy. Something to look at in the future.

Bob

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Report this Post03-28-2005 08:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierohohoClick Here to Email fierohohoSend a Private Message to fierohohoDirect Link to This Post

Sandy, great thread. +4U

Did you look into an electric power steering pump at all when you started this?

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cowans
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Report this Post03-29-2005 08:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cowansClick Here to Email cowansSend a Private Message to cowansDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fierohoho:

Sandy, great thread. +4U

Did you look into an electric power steering pump at all when you started this?

Actually, yes, I did. I decided against it as I use alot of electrical amperage as it is. I have 2 fans (temp sensored) running for each radiator (in front of rear tires) as well as stereo, heavy lights, etc. I had to get a special alternator built that would produce high amperage at an idle... so adding whatever more draw was not in my best interests! Plumbing a couple of hydraulic hoses the length of the car took very little time, just followed the right side coolant tube path. (I have the Fiero front rad & fan as well for hot days, or when 'working' the engine!).
Sandy

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gascarracer
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Report this Post03-29-2005 03:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gascarracerClick Here to Email gascarracerSend a Private Message to gascarracerDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by cowans:

Roy, I made a quick call to my rack rebuilder and now have the measurements for the racks!
Fiero rack= 46 1/4" (inner tierod threads, before ball joint)
Dakota rack= 45 1/2" (inner tierod threads, before ball joint)
so there's a total of 3/4" difference to be divided in 2(both ends) to an actual of 3/8" per end (for Fiero use) to make up.(normally, there is about 3/4" threaded together(inner>outer)) As my outer tierod/balljoints were already cutdown (from my 1st rack) I had to order up some 2" threaded spacers from Helds.
Using a Fiero measurment (46 1/4") you would have to verify if you indeed have enough thread to safely just screw on the outer tierods without any threaded spacer. The Dakota rack has about 1.5 inches of thread at each end (from memory). Anyway, you could get a Die and make more threads(M14x1.5), add spacer, and cut to size.
thanks all,
Sandy
Roy... PM back to ya

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gascarracer
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Report this Post03-29-2005 03:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for gascarracerClick Here to Email gascarracerSend a Private Message to gascarracerDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by cowans:

Roy, I made a quick call to my rack rebuilder and now have the measurements for the racks!
Fiero rack= 46 1/4" (inner tierod threads, before ball joint)

Sorry for the double post. I screwed up.

Cowans, is this mesurment for the 84-87 or the 88? Do you know if the 88 is different? Do you know what the 88 measurement is?

Thanks

------------------
Ernie

1988 Silver GT
One owner 47000 miles.
Soon to be a 3.4 DOHC powered.

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natnov
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Report this Post03-31-2005 03:03 AM Click Here to See the Profile for natnovClick Here to Email natnovSend a Private Message to natnovDirect Link to This Post

What kind of travel are you getting with this rack. With the same turns lock to lock is it a tighter ratio or just power? I think the stock (88) because thats the one I have is like 4.5" I have a merkur rack that has 5.5" travel and works well except I have been through two and they have way too much play in the rack...even rebuilt and with all new parts...Thanks
Nate

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cowans
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Report this Post03-31-2005 08:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cowansClick Here to Email cowansSend a Private Message to cowansDirect Link to This Post

"gascarracer" my chassis is an 86. I believe the 88 is different. If you have a rack rebuilder in your area, check with him, they have all the 'stats' for each rack!
"natnov" the Dakota rack is about 3.2 turns, end to end. About the same as a GT rack. As my suspension ends have different stop points, the steering assembly has a permissable 2.8 turns, lock to lock. As I have just put this on the road, I don't have any long term appraisal/repairs for this yet.
Sandy

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fierohoho
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Report this Post05-14-2005 05:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierohohoClick Here to Email fierohohoSend a Private Message to fierohohoDirect Link to This Post

Well, it's been about a month and a half and I think it's time for you to give us an update on how it's been working.

Any problems, anything you had to change, how did the alignment go?

Enquiring minds NEED to know.

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Report this Post05-29-2005 02:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for fierohohoClick Here to Email fierohohoSend a Private Message to fierohohoDirect Link to This Post

Aaaaaaah Bump.

Hello, is anybopdy out there?

Just post if you can hear me.

Is there anyone on line?

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rkisling
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Report this Post05-29-2005 06:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for rkislingClick Here to Email rkislingSend a Private Message to rkislingDirect Link to This Post

yes I would love to hear as I am considering a power steering from a late model firebird/ Camaro-- as soon as I get my engine put back together that is. Also, does anyone know if there is any discussion on the MR2 electric power steering pump and has to manage the pressure? I.e. any way to tie voltage to speed? I searched all the forms and came up empty handed.

Thanks.

Ron

[This message has been edited by rkisling (edited 05-29-2005).]

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cowans
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Report this Post05-29-2005 08:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for cowansClick Here to Email cowansSend a Private Message to cowansDirect Link to This Post

 
quote
Originally posted by fierohoho:

Well, it's been about a month and a half and I think it's time for you to give us an update on how it's been working.

Any problems, anything you had to change, how did the alignment go?

Enquiring minds NEED to know.

Ok, here's my update...! Best thing I ever did! Should have put this in years ago. I still have some 'road-feel' on highways(speed). The best is not having to fight it driving into the garage/ parking spot. Anyone who has driven cars with WIDE tires/wheels will know just how much extra effort is required to steer at low speed. I just returned from Carlisle PA (900 miles) last week and the drive was effortless. So, in short, VERY HAPPY, and have not done anything but verify the PS dipstick!
Sandy

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