Ok..........
I have decided to give this one more shot (If I can't get it this time I give up).

For those that don't know I had a blown 2.8 that I swapped a 3.4 into it's place (pushrod motor). I have been at this everynight for over a month (tearout 2.8 and install 3.4). The 3.4 came out of a manual 87 Fiero GT (and ran good in that...alittle rich running...but ran none the less).
I installed the motor in my car an auto 87 GT and the motor wouldn't run properly (I used my wiring harness, along with a few of my sensors that looked better the the ones currently on the other motor).
I also used my distribitor because it is pretty new (should've never touched it until back in car and running....live and learn)

Right before tearing it down this time....the car would run all-be-it very ratty. The motor would not idle but would run as long as throttle was appied. It would breakup if reving it above 3500rpms and reallly get ratty sounding. It was also sometimes hard to start and gas peddle was needed to get it to fire. It reved somewhat crisp if sitting there taching the throttle! I also was running very rich...alll plugs came out wet except #1 (that came out dry and soot covered). Replaced plugs and wires and the plugs look better aliitle black in color but not soaked and not nearly as black as #1 "was" (still alittle rich I believe). Car seemed to run alittle better but still wouldn't stay running no matter where the distribitor was pointing. I also pulled the 3.4 injectors thinking they were pumping to much fuel and put the 2.8's in......the car still ran but still very rough!
Enough about the past!!!!!!!!!!

I have ripped the top end off the motor (plenum, fuel system, middle intake and valve covers.....Lower intake is still on)! I want to assure my self that the motor is in TDC #1 and re-adjust valve lash. If the disrtr isn't at the exact tooth it needs to be at TDC#1 I want to put it there. I want to slowly and correctly re-assemble this thing so there are no doubts.

So far here is what I have found.....
Ripped the 2.8 injectors off the fuel rail (noticed some where cracked) and re-installed the injectors that came with the 3.4 and also use the fuel rail that was on the 3.4 swap.

Next......
I hand cranked the motor and brought the rotor to point at my #1 plug tower (tower right after the mounting screw....about 4:30 position). What I did was hand cranked the motor clockwise starting at my #1TDC. Shortly after cranking the motor cockwise at about the 7:00 position I see the #1 exhaust valve opening. By the time the rotor reaches my TDC #4 (9:30 position) The #1 exhaust valve is now closed and I see no movement in the #4 valve train. Continue cranking past #4 and I see the #1 intake valve open. By rotor position 2:00 the #1 intake valve is closed. I see no more movement from #1 valve train the whole way back to my #1 TDC (so from rotor 2:00 position to rotor 4:30 position (my #1 TDC) there is no #1 valve movement). I posted this to see if it can help anyone determine if I am at #1TDC and not off a tooth or more! My rotor for #1TDC points at 4:30 position and my rotor for #4TDC points at the 9:30 position!!!
THIS IS WHERE I CALLLED IT A NIGHT!!!!!!!!

Questions??????
1. Is #1TDC set @ 0 degrees or 8 degrees (I have seen both posted on here)?
2. What clock postion should the rotor be pointing at #1TDC (I have seen some rotors @4:30 and some @ 3:30)or does it matter?
3. What post terminal is used for #1...the one right before the control module hole or the one before that one (I've seen both)?
4. Would the 3.4 have started and reved but not idles if I was off a tooth or more?
5. What is the proper valve lash adjustment (I have seen anywhere from 3/4 to 1-1/2 turns from 0 lash)?
6. If valve lash was adjust to tight could this cuase running issues (I turned them 1 full turn the first time through...is that to tight)?
7. Is there anyway to adjust each valve set by them selves (both #1's, crank then both #2's, crank both #3's ect....) bare in mind I only have 1 usable hash mark on the pulley becuase it is a 3.4 swap?
8. Is an adjustable fuel pressure regulater need for these 3.4 injectors?
9. How can I identify if these injectors are 3.4 injectors and what # rating they are (15, 17 or 19)...they look different then the 2.8's?

I'm sorry if some of this was already answered in my prior thread.....I want to start with a fresh train of thought (I have had so many things racking around in my brain that I am al confused now. So I thought I would start over and take baby steps!!!!!

Thanks for the help (past and present) and if any other useful info is thought of it wil also be appeciated!!!!!!!

Thanks guys!

Ok, timing is critical, that's for sure.

Just to get the basics out of the way:

TDC means Top Dead Center, and refers to the relationship of a piston to the cylinder head. In a 4-stroke motor there are two TDC points in each cylinder's complete cycle. One TDC is at the top of the compression stroke, and the other TDC is at the top of the exhaust stroke.

Timing is normally set at TDC compression for cylinder number one.

To identify TDC compression requires observing the valves for number one cylinder or, if the valve covers are installed, you can remove the plug on number one and check for air being pushed out the spark plug hole. Manually turn the engine while feeling for strong air pressure at the plug hole. As soon as you feel significant air pressure you know you're on the compression stroke, so continue manually turning the engine until the wide timing mark on the dampener lines up with the 10° mark on the timing tab.

At this point the engine is set at TDC compression #1 so you're ready to work with the distributor. The distributor should look like this:

Pay close attention to the alignment of the metal prongs of the rotor poles to each other, and the direction the rotor is pointed. The rotor is under the number one pole on the distributor since that's the plug that needs to be getting the spark triggered by the pole pieces passing each other.

Now it turns out that it doesn't matter which direction the rotor is pointed as long as wherever it is is under the number one pole of the distributor cap on #1 TDC compression. After running a wire from the number one pole of the cap to the number one cylinder, install the other wires in order, 2-3-4-5-6 clockwise on the distributor cap, to the cylinders which are number 1-3-5 right to left on the rear bank and 2-4-6 right to left on the front bank.

At this point your engine should be within a few degrees of perfect timing and for sure close enough to start right up.

JazzMan

Remove the distributor. Set the motor with the #1 piston at TDC on the compression stroke. Then, follow the steps to set the valve lash. After the valve lash is set, reset the motor to #1 TDC. Then install the distibutor with the rotor in the approximate postion as shown in that pic you have. Then turn the distributor so that the rotor is pointing to the #1 post on the cap. Timing should then be close. Start the motor with the ALDL jumpered, then set the timing.

I think that you may have gotten a bit mixed up by using the rotor to set the valve lash. Use the harmonic balancer. Its easy to get it mixed up the other way, since the rotor turns at 1/2 revolution for every revolution of the crank.

I have an appointment at 4pm tuesday. After that, i have the rest of the evening free. I'll be there, we'll get this thing figured out.

Matt

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88 Formula
88 Coupe, 3800SC swap in progress
86 GT

[This message has been edited by mattm (edited 03-20-2005).]

Thanks jazzman (your info is greatly appreciated again ). I just want to cover all my bases this time through and do everything in steps. Monday I will verify TDC#1 by watching valves for cylinder #1 and then I will crank the motor again and I will also use my finger and feel for air pressure from cylinder #1 (to double check). I assume I wil be turning the motor clockwise???
When I feel the air pushing out #1 spark plug hole that is when I start looking for the timing mark to approach the timing tab correct?
I also need to bring the timing mark to '10' on the timing tab correct (Last time I took the timing mark the whole way to '0')?

At this point it is safe to adjust the valve lashes correct?.......
Intake valve is the one at the spark plug hole and exhaust is the one at the exhaust port correct (just want to be sure)?
How many turns do I go after lash is gone?

Thank once again Jazzman!

See if I can give "+'s" yet!

Tighten 1 turn after zero lash.

10° gets you as close to correct timig as possible. Yes, turn the motor clockwise. Just out of curiosity, are you using the Fiero timing cover or the 3.4 timing cover? If you're using the Fiero timing cover and tab with the 3.4 balancer then you'll have to do some more work because the timing marks on the 3.4 balancer are incompatible with the Fiero timing tab.

You have to adjust the valves at different crank positions because there's not a time when all of the valves are closed at the same time. One easy way is after establishing #1 TDC compression you adjust #1 valves, then turn the motor while watching the distributor until the poles line up the next time, that's the #2 firing position and you can adjust the valves on #2, turn the engine until the next rotor alignment of the rotors and that's number #3 firing, adjust number three valves, and so on for each cylinder.

To adjust the valves back off the rocker nuts until the pushrods are free to click up and down. Now the procedure is th rotate the pushrods while tightening the rocker until resistance is felt, but that's almost impossible for most people to actually feel. Instead, click the bottom of the pushrod back and forth in the lifter poppet seat while turning the nut slowly. When the slack goes away the clicking feeling will stop suddenly, that's zero lash. Turn the rocker nut 1.5 more turns (factory spec, and I've verified that by measuring a disassemble lifter). Move on to the next valve.

You did install a new distributor O-ring while you're doing this, right? Get the tan one from GM or Rodney Dickman, it's only a few dollars and will long outlast the black ones from the parts store.

Yes, exhaust on exhaust and intake on intake with respect to which valve is which.

JazzMan

The info you got thus far is great, I'd one or two more things though; At some point in it's history, the harmic balancer may have been changed on that 3.4. If it was, it may have one with the timing marks in the wrong place. I brought a brand new one from Auto Zone and it was that way. I think when used with another engine the marks correct? Anyway, confirm that TDC on #1 agrees with that wide timing slot on the balancer, if it's off by a lot, paint a white stripe on it even your zero indecator on the tab and try reseting the timing again. If the timing fix don't cure it, you may also want to confirm that your cold start injector is not leaking badly as that will give you a rich mix too. And make sure all your injector connectors are fully seated and that you have a good harness for them. One or two injector connectors making intermitant contact can give you those problems so can crossed connector wires. I had # 2 and # 4 connectors on the wrong injectors and it would not rev past 4K and my wide-band said it was running rich. I guess because the fuel was being burned in the exhaust and not the cylinders. I switched those two connectors and it ran great. Hang in there, you'll get solved.

Ok...

The timing cover is the one from the 2.8 (it was the one used on the pre-swapped motor that was pulled from the other Fiero)! The cover timing plate and pulley were the ones already installed on the pre-swapped 3.4 (so I don't know which were used). Can you explain this alittle further (like how to tell and what the differences are)? I know the timing tab goes from 0-12 and the pulley has a homemade groove cut into it! If something here is wrong what are my options to correct it (as I said this stuff was on the 3.4 when I pulled it from the other fiero....and I don't know who installed it)! How can I determine if this is a posible probelm (looks, ect...)

Yes the distr. o-ring is installed (not sure which brand it is, it came with the distr. when I bought it from Autozone about 6 months ago)!

thanks..... Francis T and Jazzman!

Any other input...i'll be printing this thread out before I leave work (about 4:00) and take it with me!!!

That home made grove and the swopping of covers (I don't if they are dif?) adds to my thinking that your marks may be wrong. Best thing to do is just asume they are all wrong. Set number at TDC and then put that thin line of paint on the balancer if it don't agree with what's already on it. A word a TDC; you probably don't have have TDC indecator so you're going to have to kind a guess at in a way. Here's why, when a piston reaches TDC there's sort of a flat spot of a few degrees up there as it goes over the top. You can mark it pretty close as follows, turn the crank very slowly and the instint your helper thinks it stop going up, put a temp mark on the balancer in line with the zero on the tab, ever so slowly move some more and then put a second mark the instint your helper feels the piston start to go down. TDC give or take a degree or two, TDC will be between those two temp marks. Now don't turn the crank backwards to alien and paint the line. Turn the crank almost one more full rotation and have your helper confirm that first temp mark and then you can move it forward to the spot inbetween the two temp marks. I'm sure some will knock this method, but with your timming maybe a mile off, and you not having a TDC indecator etc, it should surfice to get you running and not be so far out that it runs poorly. BTW: I've found that a plastic straw works well for feeling piston movement as you don't want to use something hard like a screwdrive. Also, did you check those injector connectors?

Francis T:

Thanks for the info (I will look into it tonight). I am assuming that if when I bring the motor to TDC #1 (no piston movement in cylinder #1) and if the homemade line on the pulley matches up with "0" on the timing plate then the crank is properly marked! If not it looks like I will have my work cut out for me! Just want to be sure I understand what you are trying to explain!

As for the injector wiring......
I was concerned about this as well because I had the wiring harness out of the car and it would've been easy to mix up the injector wire order. What is the easiest way to tell which plug goes to which injector (is there any way to easily tell or possibly a picture that I could use to determine this)! I "THINK" they might be correct because all the wires seemed to fall right into place!!!

Thanks so much guys for this assistance!!!!

For #9, you should use at least the 17# injectors from the 3.4. The 15's are inadequate unless you do some serious reprogramming. I find the 17's are still a little too lean for the stock programming in the winter with temps below freezing, though they run nicely the rest of the year. For #8, I haven't tried an AFPR on mine but it would probably help in the winter.

As for #7, you should have TWO marks on the balancer if it was a properly converted 3.4, and the second one should be more prominent to identify it as the correct one. That mark should have been transferred from the 2.8's balancer as discussed in step #16 of my instructions.

http://www.crazydave.org/fiero34project

I experienced similar symptoms to yours when I had a bad MAP sensor on mine. This forced the ECM into limp-home mode and the programming is very wrong for this to happen with a 3.4, so it's almost undrivable. Be sure to check the ECM for clues. You can use the MAP from either a 2.8 or a 3.4, they are the same.

Dave

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- Electron Blue '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 1): Before After 430hp ZZ430 V8/Ram-Port FI--Wanna Race? Follow it here on the Forum!
Pics, Vids, Specs & more at the ZZ430 Fiero webpage
- Silver '88 GT 5-speed (1 of 139) w/cammed 3.4
- 480hp 2001 6-speed Navy Blue Corvette Roadster

crazyd...

Thanks for the response!

crank pulley...
There are 2 hashes on it.
One is a big thick one that looks like it was an original hash. The other one is about 45 degrees (clockwise) from that one and looks like some ground it in! I go by the homemede one because I figured it was scribed in for a reason and the other one was the one that came pre-cut on the pulley!

Injectors.....
Good to know! I tried the 2.8's only after I thought the 3.4's were suppling to much fuel (I wouldn't stay idling with either). I have now re-installed the 3.4 ones on the fuel rail and plan to use them!

MAP Sensor.....
Funny you should mention this! I forgot to mention that I got a code and the ecm reported code 33 (Map I believe).
I (replaced the sensor) but still didn't run correctly. I did start the car and forgot to hookup the breather tube right behind the map sensor (when I installed the map) and it idled for awhile (thought I found the problem) then I heard a loud backfire and the car shut off. Noticed the unhooked breather tube hooked it back up and it ran the same as always (poorly)!

Thanks again for the assistance!

Another sensor that can cause the poor running you're experiencing is the ECT (engine coolant temperature) sensor. Mine just went out and it ran like crap. If you have a scan tool, take a look at the temp readings and make sure they're in the ball park. My scan tool reported +7°F when the temp was about 60°F. I almost couldn't get it in the garage. I replaced it and it runs fine, now.

quote Originally posted by Formula Owner: Another sensor that can cause the poor running you're experiencing is the ECT (engine coolant temperature) sensor. Mine just went out and it ran like crap. If you have a scan tool, take a look at the temp readings and make sure they're in the ball park. My scan tool reported +7°F when the temp was about 60°F. I almost couldn't get it in the garage. I replaced it and it runs fine, now.

Is that the one on the head down and to the right of the coil? Because if it is...

It took me several weeks to get my 3.4 to start. Finally, we were just messing around checking things one day and we replaced that connector (horribly damaged from years of heat from the exhaust manifold) and then we cleaned out the contacts on the oil pressure sender connector (next the the right decklid hinge). To this day, I don't know which one was causing the problem, but thats all we did and it fired right up after we did those 2 things. Been running great ever since.

Ok...
I'm back with my progress thus far!

I assured myself of TDC. I pulled the distrib. cranked the motor over (felt very uncomfortable knowing I had nothing to idex my crank turn progress...no disrtr. in motor). As I cranked I was watching the valve train move. I seen the #1 intake valve open and stopped at that point to see where my crank timing has was located (to see how far off the mark was to comeup to the timing plate). I continued cranking and seen the intake valve close. As I continued turning I seen no #1 valve movement and the crank pulley hash started approaching the timing plate. I then stoped cranking when the hash mark got to 0 degrees on the timing plate and I took a straw and felt #1 piston at the top of the cylinder. I then crank the motor slightly back (just a hair) to align hash mark with 10 degree on plate. I then inserted the distrib. to reflect the picture jazzman posted (everything was matched to the letter....rotor, posts and contacts) The distrib. is positioned identical to the photo above (I left it in but didn't folllow it when adjusting the lash) I went solely by the crank pullley mark!
I then started adjusting the lashes from the 10 degree TDC #1 position (I hope this is correct). I adjusted Intake #1,5,6 and exhaust #1,2,3. I then cranked the motor 360 degree's and matched the timing mark up with the 10 degree timing plate (#4 TDC) and adjusted intake #2,3,4 then exhaust #4,5,6. Does this sound correct????? Any concerns???? Valve lash seemed to go very smoothly. Al intake rocker bolts have about the same threads showing and all the exhaust rocker bolts have about the same threads showing.

This is where I called it a night (baby steps)!!

I really wanted to feel compression from the #1 plug hole but is impossible with only 1 person (Had to hand crank motor from wheel well and couldn't reach the plug hole to feel for it)! Matt is suppose to be up Tuesday and before I button up the covers and intake I wil have him feel for compression out of the #1 hole as a double check. This is the main reason I stopped at this point!

Tuesday I will check on the sensors mentioned above and install the intake and recheck everything!

Sensors.....
1. This sensor that was brought up (the one below the disrtib. on the block). I noticed that my connector is gone I had to plug the bare wire connectors in the sensor. I don't know which colored wire goes to which post (does anyone know)? And also what is it and what is it for?
2. ECT (engine coolant temperature) sensor. Where is this and what does it do......is it the one the screws on the end of the lower intake right near the thermostat????

Lastly anyone know of the injector wiring (how I cna tell which wire goes to which injector)????

Thanks again to everyone...and i'm sure with all this help it wil have no choice but to run!

Thanks guys!

Injector wiring:

https://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/060276.html

JazzMan

Thank a ton Jazzman!

That thread is just what I needed (especially your post with the picture).

I have a Fiero service manual and it has wiring diagrams.But I can't read the Diagrams. Thanks for your picture it will be a HUGE help (a picture says a thousand words)!

Thanks!

Ooh, ooh, ooh, can i get a +?

Just kidding Keith, see you tomorrow night. Oh, and check your PM's too.

Matt

[This message has been edited by mattm (edited 03-22-2005).]

I don't know exactly how the MSD system works, but they didn't put a grounding cable on it for nothing. I would not be surprised at all if it works better or even perfect when you get that reattached properly.

Yes you can move it a tooth forward or back for room. Use a timing light, you can use it to check for spark on each wire too. Grounding the ALDL, like you have to to set timing will bring the advance down. So if you think it wont start/run because of too much advance just groung the aldl to test it. Make sure you have no vacume leaks. The little plastic lines like to brake, and the brake booster line is hard to see/remember when the engine is in place. Also make sure your IAC works/is adjusted right. Measure your fuel pressure. Look at night for leaking spark plug wires, down by the plugs.

------------------
'84 Fiero Sport Quad 4 coming soon
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!!
http://www.lasvegasfieroclub.com/

[This message has been edited by sardonyx247 (edited 03-23-2005).]

Thanks guys.....

Hopefully the problem was the MSD Ground wire not being hooked up (It would suck in a way though because of all the trouble I went throughfor it to be something so simple).

The brake booster hose is the hose that connects to the end off the plenum right beside the map sensor correct???

We will soon see what happens!
(Please run, please run, please run.....)!!!!

quote Originally posted by keith711: Thanks guys..... Hopefully the problem was the MSD Ground wire not being hooked up (It would suck in a way though because of all the trouble I went throughfor it to be something so simple). The brake booster hose is the hose that connects to the end off the plenum right beside the map sensor correct??? We will soon see what happens! (Please run, please run, please run.....)!!!!

that is the right hose, but it runs under the plenum and then hooks up to the brake booster line between the plenum and firewall, thats where it gets missed.
Thats why to use a timing light to check for spark., If it is the MSD, that would tell you.
Remember all you ned to start is Air, Fuel, spark, and Timing.

------------------
'84 Fiero Sport Quad 4 coming soon
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!!
http://www.lasvegasfieroclub.com/

Update.......

This is getting old real fast now!!!!!

I test fired it tonight and it fired right up. It held an idle (alll-be-somewhat high...about 2500rpm's). I whacked the throttle and it hesitated slightly and then the rpms responded (this was with the ALDL jumpered). Shut it off hooked up the timing light started it again (I needed to apply some throttle when cranking) and it fired up held an idle went back shot the timing light and seen the mark was located at about the 9:00 position on the crank pullley! I turned the distribitor cap clockwise and seen the timing mark move closer to the timing plate and I ran out off adjustment room (because of the control mod. wires). B.T.W.....my rotor at TDC#1 points at like the picture above but I noticed my control module is position alittle more clockwise the the picture above (this is why I ran out of adjustment room).

Anyway.....
I shut off the car and thought about moving the distrib. 1 tooth back back had some concerns so I didn't yet (question about this to come at the end of this post)!

I thought I would give it one more shot with the distrib. at this position before calling it a night.....I hit the key car started backfiring and shut off. Hit the key again and the starter didn't sound right (it made a grinding noise)!
I got on the creaper looked up at the starter and seen the pinion gear was engaged on the flywheel and I noticed a hairline crack on the starter housing (right at the rear most mounting hole). This starter was just put in the car last weekend (brandnew). It replaced the starter that came with the 3.4 which also died! Soemthing is wrong here. I'm using the exact same shims that the 3.4 starter was orginally mounted with. Can you over tighten a starter????? If it isn't one thing it is something else....I am doubting that this car wil ever run properly and maybe I should just cut my losses now!

This has got to be the most trouble any one car has put anyone through (I truely believe this car hates me) and to think this thing was the most reliable thing I have ever owned upto this headache!!

I'm gonna pickup a starter Thurs. install it (hopefull this one will last alittle longer) move the distrib. a tooth back and try again! If I run into one more problem the fight is over and the car has won....This every-night crap is getting very old (It's seems i'm no closer to driving this car then I was when I started)!

Question....When I move the distrib. back a tooth, I don't need to move the plug wires front or back a post correct????

Thanks for the help guys (sorry for the dejection at the end of this post.......I just can't believe how many problems i'm having with this thing (Safe to say I think I got in way over my head on this project)!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks!!!!

Just rotate the cap in the same direction as you rotate the shaft one tooth so as to keep the rotor aligned with the cap. No need to mess with the wires. As for the starter, wierd.

BTW, after your done, if you get really bored, maybe you wanna help me swap out the 4-speed tranny that died on me today, lol. I know how you feel, i've had major problems with every one i have owned.

Matt

So when I move the shaft one tooth counter clockwise....i'm gonna want to leave the wires alone! After the shaft is back one tooth and the distribitor is in the motor i'm gonna move the distribitor cap mounting plate counter clockwise to bring #1 wire back to the rotor at TDC#1.......then fire it up and and continue turning the distrib. cap clockwise!
Does this sound right????

As for your tranny!
That sucks matt!

As soon as I get this squared away (hopefullly I get it squared away)!
I would be more then happy to assist you in the tranny swap!

I dunno if yours is the biggest headache. Mine took 5 weeks from when the 3.4 was installed before I could drive it around. 4 to get it started, then another to take it back out and put the right flywheel on and reinstall it. Keep at it, it will run.

If you were a little closer I would offer to come over and help you iron this out.
I stlill want to stress the fact that if you have fouled plugs, all the work you're doing to get the timing right will not make the car run properly. I once did an engine swap in an 88 Formula and had a lot of trouble starting the engine. It turned out that I got the plugs wet when I was cleaning up the replacement engine and they were all shorted out and not firing properly. Fuel fouled plugs can cause the same problems. I agree that you need to get the timing as close as possible before starting the car but if the plugs are already fouled it will still barely run until the fouled plugs are cleared.
I just want to make sure that this isn't contributing to your problems.

On the distributor firing: The coil is triggered to fire each time the points of the distributor trigger poles pass each other. The ECM does not know, or care, what cylinder is being fired, it simply fires the coil three times per crank revolution. What controls sending the spark to the correct cylinder is the rotor/distributor cap wire relationship. The base of the distributor and the rotor can be pointed in any direction, as long as whatever distributor pole the rotor is under is ultimately connected to the number one cylinder at the time the number one cylinder is supposed to be fired.

JazzMan

Thanks guys!

Jazzman....
Ok....Now I understand the way this distribitor work (I believe). I thought the posts needed to be aligned
in a certain position but now I see that as long as the posts are in line that is all that matters
The rotor and plug tower is the only relivent item (as long as the posts line up)! Do I have this right
Thanks for the clarifacation!

Skidmark (to bad you aren't closer....help from someone that has great experience would be what the doctor ordered):
The reason i'm not to concerned about the rich condition at this point is because I need to get it running first
(atleast get the timing close to proper then try to sort out the rich issue). I fell into this trap last time
trying to adjust more then one thing at a time and really started confusing myself! I do understand where
you are coming from though. If it is running rich then the car won't run correctly because the plugs will
be fouled. The plugs currently are not gas fouled to the point of being wet they are just alittle dark!

Starter....
Can someone explain to me why this thing is chewing through starters?
The original one may of died because of age (don't know) it just won't engage the flywheel it clicks then
free wheels! I put a good solnoid on it but it acts the same way.
The new one engaged the flywheel and wouldn't dis-engage (I also notice the teeth on the starter gear were
showing major wear already....it seemed to worked fine for awhile). What could be wrong here??? It wasn't an
issue with the 3.4 in the other car (the only thing I did was remove it when installing the 88 flexplate
then re-installed it). This is the first time I have seen a starter act like this (I thought they should
just bolt on...there is no way to adjust the mounting....correct)????? I'm using stock 2.8 starters...this is what I should use correct???

Thanks everyone

[This message has been edited by keith711 (edited 03-24-2005).]

quote Originally posted by keith711: Starter.... Can someone explain to me why this thing is chewing through starters? The original one may of died because of age (don't know) it just won't engage the flywheel it clicks then free wheels! I put a good solnoid on it but it acts the same way. The new one engaged the flywheel and wouldn't dis-engage (I also notice the teeth on the starter gear were showing major wear already....it seemed to worked fine for awhile). What could be wrong here??? It wasn't an issue with the 3.4 in the other car (the only thing I did was remove it when installing the 88 flexplate then re-installed it). This is the first time I have seen a starter act like this (I thought they should just bolt on...there is no way to adjust the mounting....correct)????? I'm using stock 2.8 starters...this is what I should use correct???

Sounds like misalignment between the starter & the ring gear. Look for the Starter Shim article in the electrical section of The Ogre's Cave. It explains all...

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We look for things, things to make us go.

his: 1985 2M6 SE
hers: 1984/86 hybrid 2M4

Thanks Dguy!

I have 2 complete shims installed and think the starter may be to far way from flexplate (the old starter on the 3.4 was installed this way)! Thanks for the link (I think it assisted me in finding the problem).

Next problem will be finding something to use as a measuring device to measure the 1/8" clearance needed between the armature and flexplate (that is one tight fit in there when the starter is mounted...not sure how i'm gonna go about measuring it)!

thanks again (+ for you)!

The posts in the distribitor are just magnetic pickups and tell the CPU when to fire. The posts in the housing stay timed together with the points inside the cap and the posts on the distribitor shaft turn with the rotor. Thus why turning the distribitor cap/housing changes timing.

With the starter the way it sounds tells alot as far as shims go. If it doesn't sound like a good/regular starter sound you need to adjust the shims. If it is kinda a high pitch, and you have a few shims in there, try taking some out, one at a time.

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'84 Fiero Sport Quad 4 coming soon
'87Blue GT 3.4L Swap Completed!!!!!!!!
http://www.lasvegasfieroclub.com/

Hang in there and don't give up, you'll get running good yet.
A side note for you: Too many people think auto machanics/techs are just high school dropouts and the likes, but as you're learning, and in your case with that car, you're learning a lot, it's not Gramps model T anymore. Even our old Fieros are quite complicated. Take each setback as a part of the learning process. Oh, and don't think you'll ever get to the point where you know it all, (tho some out there...) because like with the medical profession, things keep changing, but that's what makes it so interesting and why us folks out here are throwing ideas at you. Another thing to keep you thinking and us too, is the fact many different problems seem to have simular symtoms. If you start reading some good basic tech books and keep playing with your Fiero, eventually most problems will become just the next challange and not seem so duanting. Now I did say most.... Good luck newbee gearhead.

Well I worked on it alittle tonight....really got bummed out once I tried to start it and the motor cranked real slow then made a grind noise. It seems something with the new starter I installed isn't setup correctly. I do know with the 1/16" shim I put in the starter (outer pad) it engaged and wouldn't dis-engage the flexplate. I hand crank the crank pulley and I hear the pinion gear free itself from the flexplate. Took the shim out and now it soulnd like it won't engage! I pulll the coil wire it cranks fine...I have no idea what is up with this thing!

I think I am ready to throw in the wrench here! I just am not experienced enough with motors to get this thing going (I have no engine install expience what so ever...pullling heads on my other car was the most technical engine project I ever did and that went smooth as silk) . I should've just pullled the 3.4 from the car and dropped it directly into mine and not touched anything. This motor simply has too many unknowns and i'm not good enough to figure them out!
I don't know anything about the person that did the prep work on this motor for the 3.4 swap. I Do know it ran in the car it was pulled from but not knowing anything about the setup I have no clue as to what the guy did to get it running.

I am thinking to either giving a garage a call (or pay someone) and see if they can get it running or else strip out the interior (because it is in fantastic shape), exhaust and wheels and afew other needed parts and get rid of it! This really bums me out because of all my wasted time and I really was excited about driving this thing.

Side note
Francis T....
Thanks for the pick-me-up. This board is one of the best on internet (I have learned that from the years I have spent here). I was on this forum for about 4 years (old user name was camon). But my own mis-typing took that away (entered wrong email addy in prefs....and couldn't retrieve new password). I have done my share of work on this Fiero (nothing even close to this magnitude though). Distribitor swap, head removal, brakes, bearings....normal small maintance items!

This project has taught me one thing...I don't know nearly what I thought I did! This has got to be the most frustrating thing I ever done. I think looking back I would of been better off buying a new crate motor. There are so many unknowns here with this setup. I don't know anything about the guy that orginally swapped this motor....which makes me wonder if everything was done correctly (an could something with the swap have been done poorly that i'm not aware of and thus giving me problems with certain items like the starter issue).

I am gonna spend the rest of tonight thinking what I want to do here (invest more time....pay someone to fix it or get rid of it....I'm just tired of wasting my time on something I can't figure out)

You guys are great and I really appreciate all the time and trouble you went through trying to help me get this thing going!!!!

Well I decided to go up this morning and give it one more shot!
Matt showed up about 1/2 hour after I got there as I was attempting to fire the car (unsucessfully) when he suggested we look to see if it had spark (It didn't)! He then left and I unhooked the MSD and re-wired the ignition stock (hoping I could get spark back). I tried to fire it and still didn't get anything.

So I thought I'LL DO THIS ONE LAST TIME
Brought the motor top TDC#1 (for the last time). Check rotor position and it was correct (pointing at #1). I then removed distrib. and moved it back one tooth, put it back in and thought I wonder if the pickup coil wire is correct (I thought when I removed it the last time the green wire was on the outside control mod terminal and the yellow one was on the inside terminal). I thought hell with it and switched them (yelllow outside terminal green inside terminal) . Put the cap back on and hit the key! It fired right up and seemed to rev fine. The idle was ok but not great. It would idle at about 2000rpms for about 3-6 secs then would drop off and try to shut off. I would tach it again and it would again idle for about 3-6 secs and repeat the process! I haven't checked fuel pressure yet (I'll do this on my return trip to the garage).I also had alittle valvetrain noise (not really loud but noticable) I did this without jumpering the ALDL and it didn't have enough time to warmup (didn't want to risk letting it run to long incase something wasn't correct)!

As for the valve train noise. Not very bad but it sounded like a rocker or 2 were chattering!
I adjusted these rockers 1 turn after "0" lash. I also adjusted them with the crank pulley at 10 degrees instead of 0 degrees (not sure if that was a problem). This last time when I adjusted them I didn't remove the lower intake because of the extra work it requires (thermostat housing, lower intake gaskets, and RTV sealant) and adjusting them with the lower intake in place is alittle harder to feel 0 lash. Maybe I should do as jazzman suggested and go 1-1/2 turns instead of 1 turn and see what happens (he hasn't steered me wrong yet) !

What are your thoughts on this....hearing it run gave me alittle more confidence that maybe I am making progress ("Maybe")!
Maybe I should pull the intake again and re-adjust the rockers again (and if I do maybe I should just bite the bullet and also pull the lower one aswell)! I hate to replace my brandnew lower gaskets though!!!!!!

Well i'll wait about 4-5 hours before going up and continuing my quest to see if I get any hits here first!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks!

[This message has been edited by keith711 (edited 03-26-2005).]