I have no idea what I am looking at, if someone can spot anything that looks off please post here so I can try to replace whatever sensor is screwy. Here is the data log. http://members.cox.net/rags-n-tags/Dans_pics/20040915_171516_LOG.txt I downloaded winALDL view and it would be great if I knew what it all means, but I don't yet and my car is running like crap. If you DL that log file you will notice a few downward spikes, thats because my car keeps stalling and I restarted it like 3 times. If you can contribute anything please do, +'s all around.
The rich lean counter looks like its all over the place, but thats about all I can see that might be off.
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 09-15-2004).]
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05:48 PM
PFF
System Bot
paulcal Member
Posts: 2608 From: Jacksonville, Fl Registered: Oct 2002
According to that data, at one point you were doing mach 6.8. Fast car!
On a serious note, what you'll have to do is find a listing of the parameters for each sensor that it is reading to figure out whats wrong. Where would you get those? I haven't a clue but I'm sure someone on here does. If your running rich, I'd say the O2 sensor is bad.
On a side note, how does your cable connect to the ALDL interface? I have one I bought some time back with 3 small spade lugs on it but I can't remember which slots they connect into.
[This message has been edited by paulcal (edited 09-15-2004).]
According to that data, at one point you were doing mach 6.8. Fast car!
On a serious note, what you'll have to do is find a listing of the parameters for each sensor that it is reading to figure out whats wrong. Where would you get those? I haven't a clue but I'm sure someone on here does. If your running rich, I'd say the O2 sensor is bad.
On a side note, how does your cable connect to the ALDL interface? I have one I bought some time back with 3 small spade lugs on it but I can't remember which slots they connect into.
Mach 6.8? Wow I guess I must have gone a little too fast around the parking garage.
The cable connects to the bottom two left holes and the right one on the bottom. If you look into the holes you'll see copper contacts, I think it only fits those contacts 2 ways, try them both and watch the winALDL program to see if the number 25 appears in that little box at the top of the screen. When 25 appears you are connected and ready to log data.
Edited to correct my wrong statement.
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 09-15-2004).]
Jnco noticedthat my TPS values were in the negatives. So I swapped with a spare I have. The negative values went from -.07 to -1.2. They got worse, . So I tried another spare I have laying around and I tried just plugging the spare TPS in while leaving the other one on the throttle body and got negative values of -17. So I removed the second spare and installed the third spare that I already had plugged in to the electric, and it went back to -.07. Does anybody have any clue why I would be getting negative values on good TPS's?
Three TPS's
-0.7 -2.1 -0.7 installed and -17 just plugged in but not on the Throttle body.
when it was plugged in, but not connected, did you actuate the TPS to see if the values rose steadily as you rotated it? It might be worth checking the actual voltage with a meter to see what is actually going on...
[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 09-15-2004).]
The other thing to bear in mind is that the TPS is just a resistor. All the actual analog-to-digital work takes place inside the ECM.
Are you sure the wiring to the TPS is okay? If you're getting negative values it could mean a short or some other problem with the wiring. Maybe the connectors are dirty?
when it was plugged in, but not connected, did you actuate the TPS to see if the values rose steadily as you rotated it? It might be worth checking the actual voltage with a meter to see what is actually going on...
Yup they went all the way up to 128 from -13. This is surely strange. I have voltmeter somewhere.
The other thing to bear in mind is that the TPS is just a resistor. All the actual analog-to-digital work takes place inside the ECM.
Are you sure the wiring to the TPS is okay? If you're getting negative values it could mean a short or some other problem with the wiring. Maybe the connectors are dirty?
Ed
We were thinking about that, I ooked over the connectors and they look fine. I'll trace the wiring tomorrow and see if there is any melting or open sheathing.
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09:47 PM
GTDude Member
Posts: 9056 From: Keysville, Virginia, USA Registered: Nov 2001
The negative tps reading is a glitch in the program.....mine does it too. According to your block learn, you are running quite rich. Check for a leak at the map sensor.....those values look suspicious. Winaldl is not easy to read, but it does give you the best thing out there for free. If you need any other help let me know. Good luck and peace.
Phil
------------------ I am always available to help those that need help. Since my back injury, I cannot work on many of the aspects of the cars, but I can offer the knowledge of my 27 years as a GM technician. Bring the questions on................!
BLM's are pegged at 150, which is a pretty good sign of a severe problem such as a vacuum leak or faulty fuel injector. With the idle RPM values all above 1500, I would explore the vacuum leak as being the culprit, paying particular attention to the condition of the EGR tube.
BLM's are pegged at 150, which is a pretty good sign of a severe problem such as a vacuum leak or faulty fuel injector. With the idle RPM values all above 1500, I would explore the vacuum leak as being the culprit, paying particular attention to the condition of the EGR tube.
Thanks for the info, I'll check again for a vac leak. I have a hard time believing its the EGR tube, I replaced it already but its possible.
The Fiero EGR tube is responsible for severe vacuum leaks about 85% of the time, simply a very bad EGR system design overall. Thats not to say that its the only area that can cause a vacuum leak severe enough to peg the BLM's. You really should locate the problem as soon as possible, as you are out of range of what the ECM can adjust for by adding more fuel, and a lean condition can spell the end of a motor quite easily when its engine management system does not employ a knock sensor. Interesting that winaldl does not indicate a lean O2 error with those readings, perhaps its still borderline, but I would check for SES codes with a paperclip just to make sure.
[This message has been edited by Mick (edited 09-15-2004).]
The Fiero EGR tube is responsible for severe vacuum leaks about 85% of the time, simply a very bad EGR system design overall. Thats not to say that its the only area that can cause a vacuum leak severe enough to peg the BLM's. You really should locate the problem as soon as possible, as you are out of range of what the ECM can adjust for by adding more fuel, and a lean condition can spell the end of a motor quite easily for an engine management system that does not use a knock sensor.
The only place I can think of that might have a vac leak would be the front ex manifold, I can't get to the bolt behind the AC bracket to retighten it after installing the new engine. Most of the other bolts on the manifolds were loose enough to turn a few turns, one even fell out and i needed to replace it. The car was running like crap until I tightened all that, but they are all tight now except the one I can't even check. But the O2 sensor would be reading lean if that was the problem.
Man this is crazy, I have spent weeks now trying to solve this. I guess I should just try the spray and listen aproach and look for a vac leak.
Just a shot, but when was the last time you replaced your O2 sensor? A very weak O2 sensor could cause a false lean condition without setting a code. The last log was much better, and the idle does appear to be more within reason after the motor has obtained normal operating temp. If O2 sensor replacement does not solve the issue, then I would concentrate on the fuel system, (injectors, fuel pressure, fuel filter, etc)
[This message has been edited by Mick (edited 09-15-2004).]
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10:56 PM
jetman Member
Posts: 7789 From: Sterling Heights Mich Registered: Dec 2002
There is a funny looking "S" shaped wrench that will fit up in behind that air conditioning bracket in 13MM size. You will have to do a search to find one, they had and lost the one at work that I used.
Just a reminder for the new folks here, always have a fire extinguisher at the ready when you spray carb cleaner around your vacuum lines looking / listening for vacuum leaks.
Thanks Mick but if you look at the idle it sticks at about 1100 which is just about right for a manual, the engine surges and stalls on startup, but once its warmed up for a while it runs nearly right. It still bogs a bit and seems like its running rich, but I don't know for sure. I am going out on a limb and saying its probably not a vac leak, but I will check. I also put my thumb on the IAC hole with the car running and it died right away, I know thats not a foolproof way to check for a vac leak but if the leak was that big it would keep running. I replaced the engine last thanksgiving and it ran fine until this summer.
I will replace the O2 sensor if nthing else shows its face. Its been 2 years. Although I did have a bad O2 sensor before and it caused different problems.
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 09-15-2004).]
My bad, I was not paying attention to the engine temp and assumed the first scan was done at normal operating temperature. Scanning for issues such as this should always be done with the motor fully warmed up. Sounds to me like you need to replace the O2 sensor, a two year old O2 sensor with average yearly mileage.should certainly be replaced as it is critical that it be ruled out as a cause of performance issues during diagnosis. A manual trans Fiero V6 should idle betweem 900 and 950 rpm when the motor is at operating temperature, as that is the setting in the code.
[This message has been edited by Mick (edited 09-15-2004).]
My bad, I was not paying attention to the engine temp and assumed the first scan was done at normal operating temperature. Scanning for issues such as this should always be done with the motor fully warmed up. Sounds to me like you need to replace the O2 sensor, a two year old O2 sensor with average yearly mileage.should certainly be replaced no matter what.
Check out the last log I put up a few posts up. That was a 20 minute drive. The first log I ran when it was cold since I wanted to see if anything was malfunctioning at startup. The real problem is the startup. It surges then stalls, then barely runs for about 5 minutes.
Check out the last log I put up a few posts up. That was a 20 minute drive. The first log I ran when it was cold since I wanted to see if anything was malfunctioning at startup. The real problem is the startup. It surges then stalls, then barely runs for about 5 minutes.
That might indicate a fuel system issue, the fuel filter is a good place to start.
That might indicate a fuel system issue, the fuel filter is a good place to start.
Avengador1 mentioned the fuel filter was a good place to start. I'll try that and then the O2 sensor I think. I replaced the fuel and O2 sensor two years ago, but with a blown engine and a non running car for months either one could be bad .
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12:03 AM
RGBaker Member
Posts: 112 From: Ottawa, ON Canada Registered: Jun 2004
I'm not an expert on ALDL data ... I'm trying, but my opinions here are novice level.
1) If your engine is running rich, which a blm count permanently maxed suggests, you could have a leak in your exhaust system that is letting air in -- your O2 sensor (if it is working properly) sees 'unburned' oxygen and enriches the fuel mixture ... the unburned oxygen is a false reading as it is from a leak & so more fuel doesn't result in better burning. This is a 'typical' issue for V6 drivers with the front-side manifold leak ... I don't know about the duke.
2) There are other reasons for rich running, especially when combined with an inability to maintain a steady idle -- vacuum leaks are the obvious one here. I note that your IAC values, though not way out of spec ... do have a weird change at one point about half way through your log -- suddenly the IAC drops to a lower count, and though it still operates as 'normal' it seems to do it in a new range. This sudden change is curious, and begs the question of what changed ..?
Keep this thread going -- the more I learn about ALDL data the happier I am.
Its already set to default voltage of .54. for 0 throttle. Thats right I think.
I got a TPS code 22 error on the way in to work today. I guess the TPS I swapped in isn't good. I know that the other one must be though if I am now getting a code after swapping to a different one.
Also it took me over 5 minutes to get my car to stay running today. It kept stalling out. I think I might have to bring it somewhere, I checked the exhaust bolts again and didn't find anything loose. Its possible that I have a leak because of a worn gasket at the ex manifolds, but I would hear it, yet I don't.
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 09-16-2004).]
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12:38 PM
Bigfieroman Member
Posts: 2416 From: Pleasant Hills, PA, near Pittsburgh Registered: Nov 2000
I am still having the same problem connecticut, but mine only stalls once or twice and loses the symptoms in about a minute. I am still watching to see if you can fix this so I know where to go with mine.
I am still having the same problem connecticut, but mine only stalls once or twice and loses the symptoms in about a minute. I am still watching to see if you can fix this so I know where to go with mine.
It gets worse as time goes by. At first my car just surged a little bit and ran like crap at startup. Then it surged and stalled only once and ran like crap for a few minutes then was OK after that. Then I had to keep on the gas at startup to force the car to keep running and it ran like crap for my whole drive to work. Now I can barely keep it running at startup unless I just start driving right away, and the car runs like crapola al the time. It does get better after a while, but it bogs and the throttle response is hesitant and pops. I don't know what to do, it looks like I might have to give up and bring it in to a repair shop. I'll try the fuel filter, I'll spray TB cleaner looking for vac leaks, but I am almost certain its not a vac leak and why would the car not stall anymore after its warm if it was the fuel filter, .
[This message has been edited by connecticutFIERO (edited 09-16-2004).]
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01:31 PM
Bigfieroman Member
Posts: 2416 From: Pleasant Hills, PA, near Pittsburgh Registered: Nov 2000
Bad news....I just replaced the MAP sensor, sprayed for vac leaks, and replaced the fuel filter...no change in mine. I hav had this problem for 6 months but it has not gotten any worse. I still suspect the MAP sensor and may change it again.
Bad news....I just replaced the MAP sensor, sprayed for vac leaks, and replaced the fuel filter...no change in mine. I hav had this problem for 6 months but it has not gotten any worse. I still suspect the MAP sensor and may change it again.
Oh man, I am going to do the fuel filter anyways just in case. I replaced it 2 summers ago, but you never know.
Check out the last log I put up a few posts up. That was a 20 minute drive. The first log I ran when it was cold since I wanted to see if anything was malfunctioning at startup. The real problem is the startup. It surges then stalls, then barely runs for about 5 minutes.
sounds to me like a fuel delivery related issue.. did you use octane booster or any strong fuel injector cleaner recently? sometimes, in that old of a car, it will eat away the rust in a gas tank and then clog the fuel filter and the lines up pretty bad.. check the fuel filter... if it is filthy, then thats your culprit, and you can expect the fuel pump to die pretty soon too if that was it..if teh fuel filter looks fine, then id say it very well could eb either your 02 sensor or a vacuum leak.. me personally, i dont even run an EGR valve on mine.. after the one that is on there stopped working, i plugged the vacuum line running to it and left it disconnected, but then again, i run 89 or better octane in my car, so it is really not needed.
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05:17 PM
aaronrus Member
Posts: 870 From: bradenton, FL USA Registered: Nov 2003
what is your fuel pressure at idle, and then at WOT?
youve swapped in and out several TPSs... with a different rading each time.. possible they are all bad ... id still suspect the o2 sensor first though
TPS is fine, I know because when I put a bad one in the ECM SES light came on and gave a code 22. O2 could be the case, but it read fine on winALDL and no codes. I never checked fuel pressure. I dont have a gauge.
)
. So I tried another spare I have laying around and I tried just plugging the spare TPS in while leaving the other one on the throttle body and got negative values of -17. So I removed the second spare and installed the third spare that I already had plugged in to the electric, and it went back to -.07. Does anybody have any clue why I would be getting negative values on good TPS's?
Thanks Aus! 
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