it wont dry, its in my garage, and its heated, i dont think i got the hardener mixture right, what do i do now? will it dry? or do i throw away the hood and start over???

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Cameron Hoag

~*I want more than this world has to offer.
AIM: CDubbZ111
Year: 1987
Make/Model: Fiero GT
Color: Primer grey and burgundy
Transmission: 5spd Manual
AC PL PW PM sunroof defrost

How long have you let it sit? I found that with the resin that I have used before, it took a looong time to set if you didn't get the hardener ratio just right, but it did eventually. Let it sit overnight and see how it is again. If it is still wet, I don't know if there's anything else you can do. Perhaps putting on another layer with a different ratio might help. but I doubt it.

its been about 24hours already!!!!
but thanks

throw it out.

Is it runny or just sticky?

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its sticky.
the fiber is pretty well stuck down, its just not hard, dry

and there is no way in hell im throwin it out unless someone wants to give me a new 100 scoop and new hood!
lol
but thanks

Shine a heat lamp on it or if you can get a UV light even better

thats the answer i wanted to hear!!!
thanks phil

I HATE that about my skills with body work. It seams to harden between blinks of the eye or not at all. Something to get use to that for sure.

It sound like you have a problem on your hands ,if mixed properly the resin should be dried in 30 minutes max so obviously the mixture was wrong and you will have to tear it apart and do it over.It is easier to mix in small portion than a large amount

If you used fiberglass resin on the Fiero's hood, then you might as well take it all back off because it won't last for long. Fiberglass resin does not hold well to SMC. I learned that lesson the hard way
I had much better luck with a product called Vette Panel Adhesive and epoxy resin.

done, i just so happen to have a couple UV lights

LOL dont ask,
thanks for the info, are u sure it will work? and also what do you all use to get the resin off of your hands????

quote Originally posted by C DuBBz87GT: Im useing this special resin coating with fiber matting, you dont think it will hold? hmmm i just took a cup that had dried out (previous layer it actually dried!) and beat the hell out of it with a hammer, its tough stuff in my opinion!

I have glass all over my whole Fiero and NO crack's as of yet..(2yrs.) and it has been my daily driver for the last 3 month's...
I did grind down to the white on the hood also... I have glassed scoop's on the decklid and designed a hood scoop(vent's)....

I have used up to 11 layer's of glass in places and on the fascia's...

SmoothGT!

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AKA. "SmoothGT"....
Custom Built SHAVED~WIDEBODY~GT!!

Wow........... DUH man we can tell you like to dabble with the dark magic of fiberglassing,
Seriously though thats an awsome body!!!!!!!

what tips can you give me for mixing the resin and hardening agent???

[This message has been edited by C DuBBz87GT (edited 01-27-2004).]

Don't dispare. It sounds like your hardner has gone bad. Once the hardner has been opened, it doesn't last but a few weeks before begining to weaken.
Do NOT try to remove what you already have on there. Just go buy some new hardener, mix up a hot batch, and coat over your work. that should kick off the entire batch in a more or less normal length of time.

BTDT,

Russ Camp

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86 SE350 x 4 speed (my way)
86 SE2.8 x 4 speed (all-option restored)

okay thanks! ive got like 3 tubes left now
will try in the mourning! thanks again all

Peel or grind/off all the resin and glass you put on and get back down to virgin hood. If its less than 65* or so is use about 20 DROPS of hardener to an ounce of resin. I dont mix more than about 4 or 5 oz at a time for a job like your doing. A heat lamp, IR lamp, heat gun or hair dryer will make it kick faster after its on. You just need to heat it for a min or 2, then it self generates heat to cure. If you just pile on more on top of the sticky resin, youll be sorry this summer when the heat beating on it starts popping it all loose and forming bubbles. I dont put on more than 2 or 3 cloth layers at a time. In summer or hotter garage, use a little less hardner , about 12-15 Drops per ounce. Dont try using the glass if its less than 55-60*, and dont put it on warm or hot panels (like in the sun). Most important, make sure you got it thoughly mixed. Do the mixing quickly, dont doddle. I use cheap disposable latex gloves and paint brushes to work it. Thinner will take it off your hands when its still wet, and clean brushes. Use a new pair of gloves every batch (box 100 is $7.00) If its dried on hands, about all you can do is pick it off, rub lots of lotion in your hands to loosen it. I just did both whole quarter panels, hood and floors on my GT40 kit. On Fieros or Vettes, I finish the job off with a layer of the 'Corvette' SMC filler blended into the original panel, finish sand and prime.

Thanks Roger......you're such a wealth of knowledge about body work! I just want you to know you are very much appreciated and I'd give you another + if I hadn't done it so long ago. Thanks.

Phil

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87 FIERO GT 2.8 5spd

GM auto tech for 27 years. Specializing in electrical and computer problems. Now on workers comp. and it looks like I will be unable to return to work as a tech.

Wow. I can't believe some of the answers I've read here. A few right, most just plain wrong.

Howard says "throw it out". IMHO, he's mostly right, at least as far as what you've done. Roger hit the nail on the head if you want to save the hood, get all the crap you've already done off there, to the virgin hood, throw the crap out, and start over with your mods. Normally, if it won't pass a "scratch test" and is no longer tacky within 24 hours if cured in a normal, room temperature environment, you're screwed on that job. Give it up and do it over.

There is a right ratio to mix your resin and hardener with any decent system. Anything other than that is just plain WRONG. It's much easier to use a system like West Systems that the hobbiest can buy in cans with metered pumps. You just use so many strokes of resin, the same number of strokes of hardner, and stir well. Simple, accurate, and correct. The consumer stuff that you have to measure in "drops" simply won't make it into my shop. I'd rather spend the few extra $$ for a proper system than have to do a job over. True, some people do use the other stuff and seem to get by. More power to them. I won't do it, it's not worth the risk.

One thing tha absolutely will NOT work is painting the area with more hardner. The resin and hardener have to be thoroughly and completely mixed and you can't do that by painting it over the top.

All of that is just stuff though, what really bothered me was when you asked how to get it off your hands. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounds like you have (had) quite a bit of it on your hands. Howard and Roger jump in here if I get too far astray, but let's talk resin safety 101 for a minute.

It's not a question if you're going to become allergic to Epoxy Resins, it's a question of when. I had to finish a friend's LongEZ for him because he became so allergic to it that he would break out in hives when he entered the workshop if we had uncured resin open or during lay-ups. ALWAYS use safety precautions when handling it both for your comfort and convenience and safety. Personally, I use the green Nitrile gloves and the cheap, latex ones Roger is talking about over them. I use the Nitrile for protection and, since they aren't cheap compared to the surgical, latex gloves, I use the ones thin ones over them to get many uses out of them. Be careful with any solvents that will clean resin off because most of them are at best, skin irritants and at worst, carcinogens. Most solvents that will clean up the resin will also destroy the latex gloves. After you do a lay-up, clean up using as little solvent on your skin as possible (the nitrile gloves will make that almost none) and then IMMEDIATELY wash your hands with warm water, soap, and either a hand lotion or a soap that contains a lot of lanolin. The solvents will, by design, remove almost ALL of the oils from your skin and it won't take long before your skin gets dry, cracked and very sore.

Reactions to resin systems are widely known. Resins will cause SOME PEOPLE almost immediate reactions, other people can appear to use them with impunity. I don't know of ANYONE that has done a major fiberglassing project, like building a homebuilt aircraft, that didn't show some signs of allergic reaction to the sytems varying from very mild (a little bit of redness) to very severe. The guy I helped finish his airplane had to finish sanding and filling in a contained air suit to even work around it.

Thankfully, once it's fully cured, it's inert and doesn't seem to affect people the way it does when it's uncured. If that weren't the case, all finished fiberglass products would be causing a lot of problems for the general population.

Be careful with this stuff. It's not like washing up with water when you use acetone or some other solvent on your skin. Many on here are fairly young and don't worry about what might be happening to them, but believe me you're going to appreciate the care you take now in about another 20 years.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by GTDude: Thanks Roger......you're such a wealth of knowledge about body work! I just want you to know you are very much appreciated and I'd give you another + if I hadn't done it so long ago. Thanks. Phil

WOW, that's really good advise! Thanks!

I just wanted to add that most polyester resins shrink when they cure, epoxy does not. For building something the first time, in one shot, there's no problem. But if repairing or adding to an existing part, a non-shrinking resin is an advavtage. Plus, the epoxy is stronger.

GL

[This message has been edited by Tugboat (edited 01-28-2004).]

But be advised that Epoxy ( West System and the like) is not compatible with fiber glass matt. Some good info can be found here http://legnosboat.com/techinfo.html

I was supposed to wear glove's..???

JUST KIDDING!!

They ARE A MUST!!

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AKA. "SmoothGT"....
Custom Built SHAVED~WIDEBODY~GT!!

jstricker - great post with great info

I can hardly believe that anyone would even so much as attempt fiberglass work without heavy goves at the bare minimum! I always wear full length clothes, extra-lenght gloves, a respirator mask, and eye protection. I've only ever gotten a small drop on one arm... and it burned like a stinker (and it always sucks having to pull off arm hair to get the last bit of it out).

Stay safe! If you don't have the safety equipment, then I wouldn't recommend starting the project!

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Looking for Fiero posters?

The amount of hardener depends on temperature. I use more when it is cold like it is now. The "MEK" harderner is much better than the "repair set"stuff.

I always mix several small amounts of resin after each other instead of one big amount when there's a lot to be done. I use two layers of mat max . Aceton is good for cleaning but I always wash my hands immediately after fiberglassing! Try to vent the area while working.
I found out fiberglass works quite good with the hood and decklid, better than the ABS naca ducts I had; they came loose at the edges so I ripped them out and put some molded fiberglass copies in there that seem to work (till now)

I had some problems with cracking "mods" and my solution is to make molds and fiberglass-only pieces. Time-consuming but it will last longer

Oh, Oh he hasn't posted since yesterday... I hope he was just joking about getting the resin of his hands, hope he's not in the hospital!

C DuBBz87GT, you stil with us?

[This message has been edited by ds21 (edited 01-28-2004).]

You're absolutely right, 99.999% of the time. I didn't get into the differences between the two types of systems because the safety precautions for them are the same.

That said, I can't remember the last time I used matte. It's heavy after completion, has no structural strength, and difficult to make a good lay-up with. The one thing it does do is conforms to corners (tight corners) better than bi-directional cloth, but that can also be worked around. We didn't use a single square inch of matte in the Finale on our work, it was all cloth. We had ONE crack where the roof section joins with the rear clip and upon repair, found a void in the lay-up. It was repaired and hasn't reappeared. We also have some minor cracks on one of the door jambs because I let Chris do that one after watching me and he didn't bond the area with glass before he used the micro to fill it. Very fine cracks are appearing now where the rivets are counter-sunk.

Other people can use matte if they want, I just don't see a very practical use for it myself.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Phil: But be advised that Epoxy ( West System and the like) is not compatible with fiber glass matt. Some good info can be found here http://legnosboat.com/techinfo.html

yeah, no worries
i ended up lightly sanding the wet resin off and popped the hood back on for now, I am gonna wait until i have a better place to work, and then i will try to refiberglass the scoop on, until then i have a black scoop with some fiberglass on the corners,
I did find that LAVA soap works well to get the resin off, but not all of it, i will say that my entire body was covered, including a $50 dust mask but i never thought to put gloves on, but then again, i didnt think i was going to have any drying problems,
i do appreciate the concern, and i promise i wont do anymore glassing w/o gloves on,

on another note, is anyone going to the WOW convention in Chicago???

Thanks again everyone!

Glad you started over...lol Becareful with that fiberglass....

You said $50 DUST mask. I use the same chemical cartridges on mine that I use when painting. Uncured, catalyzed, resin gives me a massive headache. I didn't want to find out why down the road so I started wearing the respirator.

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perk - todd's hot rods
Shotgun - the ultimate toy toter
Blade - the street-legal Fiero-based race car
Rock-it - the Fiero that will soon be for sale

I have a 3M mask with charcoal filters(well, I've been told they're charcoal) for doing lay ups. A quick way you can tell if a mask is good is that if it is good you won't be able to smell the resin once it is on.

I also have a dust mask (cheaper filters) for when I'm trimming composites.

I don't get head aches if I don't wear a mask, but I get weird and do stupid things.

I also tend to break out time to time from working with composites.

The first time I worked with carbon/epoxy, I had hives all over my arms.

quote Originally posted by perkidelic: You said $50 DUST mask. I use the same chemical cartridges on mine that I use when painting. Uncured, catalyzed, resin gives me a massive headache. I didn't want to find out why down the road so I started wearing the respirator.

respirator!!! thats the word i was looking for! i used one of those dust masks at first but was coughing up a storm so my dad got me the respirator, you cant smell anything at all, but the only problem is its a little tough for me because i have to breathe hard to open and close the little rubber things, haveing asthma doesnt help!
but yeah respirator is the word i was looking for!

With West Systems, it's a VERY low odor. I don't use any mask at all when I do layups but certainly use a simple dust mask religiously when trimming, grinding, or sanding. Especially micro. I will wear a dust mask when mixing up micro as the glass beads are a bit smaller than talcum powder granuales and behave like flour when you pour them in.

So far, I've never had a reaction to resin, but I'm not kidding myself that I'm immune. At some point, my body will say "ooops, you have exceeded your tolerance level and now we're going to make your life difficult". That day is coming, I know that, but I'm going to forestall it for as long as possible by using proper safety equipment.

There's a BIG difference in the odor of the various formulations for epoxy and plyesters. Some stink to high heaven, some have almost no odor at all. That's one reason I like West Systems, it hardly has any smell at all. It also does not shrink and is very versatile. It's equally at home in automotive applications being used with micro, flox, or as a layup. The Tg isn't great, but it's not bad either, particularly if you lay up in the summer time and do a poor man's post cure out in the sun on a hot day.

Howard, you probably already know this, but if you broke out in hives with that particular epoxy, then it's only going to get worse every time you use it. You either need to be VERY careful using it or better yet, switch to another formulation you don't have as many problems with.

John Stricker

quote Originally posted by Howard_Sacks: I have a 3M mask with charcoal filters(well, I've been told they're charcoal) for doing lay ups. A quick way you can tell if a mask is good is that if it is good you won't be able to smell the resin once it is on. I also have a dust mask (cheaper filters) for when I'm trimming composites. I don't get head aches if I don't wear a mask, but I get weird and do stupid things. I also tend to break out time to time from working with composites. The first time I worked with carbon/epoxy, I had hives all over my arms.

Polyester styrene monomer resin, the catalyzing agent is 5% methyl ethyl keytone peroxide in dimethel phthalate, in cold weather use a DMF ( dimethel formimide) accelerator instead of increasing the amount of catalyst. A good solvent is acetone or methalene chloride. It's nomal for the surface to be a slight bit tackey to the touch after curring, when using lamminating resin. For your final top layer add some surfacing wax to the resin, and in will cure hard and sandable.

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[This message has been edited by Captain Midnight (edited 01-29-2004).]

In general I like West Systems stuff. I really like that I can buy it locally if I need epoxy quick. West Systems also has a relatively strong cure. It is kind of expensive and for the same money I can get DPL 862 and the curing agent of my choice. I also can get sophisticated tensile strength and heat distortion temp numbers if I need from the DPL based systems. 862 w/ TETA is a whole other league.

However, even if the west systems has little odor, I would still wear a proper mask as the vapors still can "cook your brain."

If he's using a polyester resin, I guarantee it has an odor.

I also wear nitrile gloves. I recommend them to others as well. I don't know about the "lanolin." I'll have to do some research. I clean my hands off after with "Gojo. " You can buy a lotion to put on your hands under the gloves that will also protect, but I haven't bought any yet. Joel at AVT sells it. Doing lay ups without any kind of gloves is a bad idea. When we did the hood for the "Hot Wheels" civic last year, the people that hired us wanted to help in the actual lay up and I foolishly agreed. We didn't have enough gloves for everyone so I foolishly didn't use any myself. I had resin caked onto and under my nails for over a week. Not good times.

I still use the system(us composites) that I had the reaction to, but am careful not to get it on myself. I wear long sleeves. I put my mask on before even cracking the container. Some days it's bad and others it's not so bad. If I'm doing a bunch of layups over a week, it will get worse as the week goes on . Out of the group I do layups with, I'm the only one that has reactions so far.

quote Originally posted by jstricker: With West Systems, it's a VERY low odor. I don't use any mask at all when I do layups but certainly use a simple dust mask religiously when trimming, grinding, or sanding. Especially micro. I will wear a dust mask when mixing up micro as the glass beads are a bit smaller than talcum powder granuales and behave like flour when you pour them in. So far, I've never had a reaction to resin, but I'm not kidding myself that I'm immune. At some point, my body will say "ooops, you have exceeded your tolerance level and now we're going to make your life difficult". That day is coming, I know that, but I'm going to forestall it for as long as possible by using proper safety equipment. There's a BIG difference in the odor of the various formulations for epoxy and plyesters. Some stink to high heaven, some have almost no odor at all. That's one reason I like West Systems, it hardly has any smell at all. It also does not shrink and is very versatile. It's equally at home in automotive applications being used with micro, flox, or as a layup. The Tg isn't great, but it's not bad either, particularly if you lay up in the summer time and do a poor man's post cure out in the sun on a hot day. Howard, you probably already know this, but if you broke out in hives with that particular epoxy, then it's only going to get worse every time you use it. You either need to be VERY careful using it or better yet, switch to another formulation you don't have as many problems with. John Stricker

quote Originally posted by NotAFieroAnyLonger: I have used up to 11 layer's of glass in places and on the fascia's... SmoothGT!

So when did you get the "widebody" idea ?!!

fiberglass resin will stick to the fiero hood if you chizzle into the fibers of the hood then use that to bond.If you just leave a sanded surface then no.

that's right!