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What is the max horsepower you can get out of a stock 2.8 by va441975
Started on: 01-12-2004 11:09 PM
Replies: 28
Last post by: red85gt on 01-15-2004 01:06 AM
va441975
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Report this Post01-12-2004 11:09 PM Click Here to See the Profile for va441975Send a Private Message to va441975Direct Link to This Post
Hello,
I am just curious what is the max horepower you can get out of the 2.8 I think you can make it into a 3.4 is that right or you can bolt a 3.4 up to the fiero. I am looking at doing an engine job and I want the most horses but I want something that bolts right back. I know you can use a 2.8 bored out to 3.4 I think it is but what else can you do madify the headers bore out the throttle body etc. I am just curious with every mod avaliable about what is the max horses you can get and what you have to do to get them suped up cam etc.
Thanks guys
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ca_xtreme
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Report this Post01-12-2004 11:22 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ca_xtremeClick Here to Email ca_xtremeSend a Private Message to ca_xtremeDirect Link to This Post
out of a stock 2.8 im gonna guess somewhere in the range of 200 or so?
comp 2030 cam
1.6 rocker kit
CRX intake
ported intake/throttle body
ported headers or shorty headers
free flowing exhaust system
and a muscle chip

also something to think bout is cut down alot of the weight on the fiero IE spare tire and such cause that will increase your power to weight ratio. just something to think bout

------------------

no, i dont race anything that has more cubic inches in the exhaust tip then the engine!

[This message has been edited by ca_xtreme (edited 01-12-2004).]

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Oreif
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Report this Post01-12-2004 11:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageClick Here to Email OreifSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
Boring out a 2.8L to a 3.4L is tricky at best. The cylinder walls could possibly be too thin. There is a company doing it, but if you plan on maxing horsepower, you may want to just use a 3.4L from a 93-95 Camaro/Firebird. Much better block, just needs the starter holes drilled on the opposite side of the block and it bolts in. Mechanically it is the same size externally as the 2.8L, all the 2.8L external parts will bolt onto it. It is basically a bolt in upgrade.

As for horsepower, Normally aspirated with the Fiero intake you can get to about 190-195hp.
Using aftermarket intake and parts you can get to 225hp. With a turbo, NOS, or supercharger you can get in the 250-270hp range (average build) You can get higher output if you want to make a "race only" car, But to retain drivability for street use you will be in the 200's.

Do a search on 3.4L and you'll find lots of info and many different set-ups that work.

------------------

Happiness isn't around the corner...
Happiness IS the corner.

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G-Nasty
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Report this Post01-13-2004 12:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for G-NastyClick Here to visit G-Nasty's HomePageClick Here to Email G-NastySend a Private Message to G-NastyDirect Link to This Post
A little over 200 NA @ flywheel w/ badass mods
About 2 yrs ago I talked to a person who made (tooled) his own aluminum heads for boat racing. Apparently boaters use our V6 block. He decked the heads to get a little over 10to1 compression. Ran race gas and said his racing engines produced approx 300 HP. I wanted to buy the heads but they were the newer style heads that dont fit the fiero plenum.

I want to hear a what a fiero engine w/ 10:1 compression sounds like. <EXPLOSION> maybe??

[This message has been edited by G-Nasty (edited 01-13-2004).]

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Pyrthian
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Report this Post01-13-2004 08:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for PyrthianClick Here to Email PyrthianSend a Private Message to PyrthianDirect Link to This Post
tricky question - reasonably or no cash limit?
if you bore & stroke it to 3.4, it's not a 2.8 - so, I guess we'll re-specify - pushrod 60* v6
I think the limit is in the crankshaft at around 260-280 hp's
so probably a 3.4 turbo'd to 12-14 psi w/intercool would be the top
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Master Tuner Akimoto
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Report this Post01-13-2004 09:07 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Master Tuner AkimotoClick Here to visit Master Tuner Akimoto's HomePageSend a Private Message to Master Tuner AkimotoDirect Link to This Post
Depends how much you want to spend every thing is possible just $$$$$$$

------------------
Tuners of the Quickest 4.9
12.51@118 mph

4.5/4.9 (RSR)Hi Perf. Caddi-V8 Fully Blueprint&Balanced Rotating Assembly
Custom Intake Manifold
Custom Machined Heads
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50-150HP Nos Power Shot.
Holley 510-0-4412C Carb.

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cooguyfish
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Report this Post01-13-2004 10:24 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cooguyfishClick Here to Email cooguyfishSend a Private Message to cooguyfishDirect Link to This Post
actually, there was a guy on a camaro or firebird forum who had his 3.4L up to 330 HP at the wheels, but it was a twin turbo set-up and was pushing A LOT of boost... but i don't know how long it would hold together at that power level.

-Fish

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Report this Post01-13-2004 10:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for intlcutlassClick Here to Email intlcutlassSend a Private Message to intlcutlassDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Master Tuner Akimoto:

Depends how much you want to spend every thing is possible just $$$$$$$

That is absulutley correct..... A popular phrase on the w-body forum is:"How fast can your wallet go?"

If you consider induction, you should read this from w-body.com, as a 2.8 and a 3.1 are SOOO close.:

Short of swapping in a new engine, the greatest increase in performance you can possibly get would be to go to forced induction. The amount of power that an engine can produce is limited by the amount of air and fuel that can be drawn into the cylinders. Air at atmospheric pressure flows through the intake manifold to fill the vacuum created when the intake valve opens and a piston descends in a cylinder. Forced induction is using a turbocharger or supercharger to force air into the cylinders at greater than atmospheric pressure.

A supercharger is a belt-driven pump that forces more air into the cylinders which raises the effective compression ratio of an engine, which increases its power output.

A turbocharger is an exhaust-driven supercharger. A small turbine wheel is mounted in the exhaust system, where the high-speed flow of exhaust gases cause it to spin rapidly. This exhaust turbine drives a shaft that is connected to another wheel in the intake manifold called a compressor. The compressor forces the air into the cylinders. The faster the engine runs, the greater the flow of exhaust gases, and the faster the turbine spins-which in turn causes the engine to run faster still. To prevent this chain reaction from getting out of hand, a safety valve called a wastegate diverts exhaust gases around the turbine when pressure in the intake manifold exceeds a preset level.

A turbocharger is more efficient than a belt- or chain-driven supercharger because no power is required from the crankshaft to run the pump. The turbine wheel is driven by exhaust heat and pressure, which normally go to waste.

On the other hand, a supercharger can provide more low-end torque, because it is running even at idle. A turbocharger can suffer turbo lag which occurs when the engine has not reached a speed high enough to drive the turbocharger fast enough to generate sufficient boost. A larger turbo has a longer turbo lag where the effects of the turbo may not be felt until around 2500rpm. A smaller turbo will spool up more quickly, allowing for less turbo lag, however, a smaller turbo may not hold up as well as a larger turbo at high boost levels. Since turbochargers are more efficient, a turbo can potentially supply more boost than a supercharger.

Adding a Supercharger
There are currently no supercharger kits for any W-body engine. As a result, a custom solution will be required. The 3800 Series II (L36) can be supercharged using off the shelf parts designed for the 3800 Series II Supercharged engine (L67). For a custom supercharger setup, you'd need:

Larger Flow Injectors - More fuel will be required since more air is forced into the cylinders.
Supercharger Compatible MAP Sensor - The existing MAP sensor is a 1 BAR MAP which will only read engine vacuum. You will need a 2 BAR or better MAP sensor to sense boost conditions.
Custom Chip or Custom Computer - The computer needs to know how to handle the greater air flow from the turbo and the larger flow injectors.
There are two main types of superchargers. The roots type which normally mounts on top of the intake manifold, and a separate supercharger with a compressor similar to that of a turbocharger which is usually mounted remotely, with the outlet of the supercharger connected to the throttle body via intake piping. Both types of superchargers will need to be mounted somewhere that the engine can drive them directly.

Adding a Turbocharger
There currently are no turbo kits for any W-body engine. A 2.8L V6 (LB6) and 3.1L (LH0) can be turbocharged using off the shelf parts designed for a 3.1L Turbo V6 (LG5) found in the 1989-90 Turbo Grand Prix. However, most of these parts are long discontinued. As a result, a custom solution will be required. The following will be required for a custom solution:

Custom crossover pipe - Crossover pipe needs an outlet to drive the turbo.
Custom down pipe - This is the outlet from the turbo to the exhaust pipe.
Oil feed and Oil Return plumbing - The oil lines going from the engine to the turbo, and back to the engine.
Coolant feed and coolant return plumbing - The coolant lines going from the engine to the turbo, and back to the engine.
Custom RH exhaust manifold or modification to existing manifold - The RH manifold (the one near the firewall) needs to be replaced with a custom manifold, or have the outlet welded shut. This is required since the exhaust will have to be routed out a custom crossover pipe to the turbo.
Larger Flow Injectors - More fuel will be required since more air is forced into the cylinders.
Turbo Compatible MAP Sensor - The existing MAP sensor is a 1 BAR MAP which will only read engine vacuum. You will need a 2 BAR or better MAP sensor to sense boost conditions.
Custom Chip or Custom Computer - The computer needs to know how to handle the greater air flow from the turbo and the larger flow injectors.
To know what type of turbo would work best, you need to know how much power you want to make. A turbo 3.1L engine, for example, can produce over 500HP with a turbo. You would need a rather large turbo to produce that kind of power. A small T25 size turbo is good for around 250HP. Every turbo also has an A/R ratio of both the compressor and turbine. There are many formulas, turbo maps, etc. that will let you determine what size and A/R you need for your turbo.

Custom computers are available from Haltech Racing.

This is pretty much all I know about superchargers and turbochargers. Just basic stuff, for more detailed info on picking the right turbo or supercharger for your engine, you'll have to consult some books and experts on this kind of stuff.

Like I said ....this is from a fella by the name of Shawn Lin @ w-body.com

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coinball
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Report this Post01-13-2004 01:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for coinballClick Here to Email coinballSend a Private Message to coinballDirect Link to This Post
u won't get more than 130hp to the wheels unless u go to internal mods...

i onyl got 116hp to the wheels on my 87GT, it has:

-custom made intake
-ported exh manifolds
-Ocelot exhaust w/o a catalytic converter
-no EGR
-no TB coolant lines
-dynotuner piggyback computer
-MSD 6A ignition and blaster coil and wires

theres lots of other things but the above items are the big things...

hope that helps!

------------------
Eric
'87 GT Gold/Tan 4-speed
Soon to be Turbo T-top

SAVE THE SHAUN!!!

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Oreif
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Report this Post01-13-2004 01:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageClick Here to Email OreifSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by coinball:

u won't get more than 130hp to the wheels unless u go to internal mods...

i onyl got 116hp to the wheels on my 87GT, it has:

-custom made intake
-ported exh manifolds
-Ocelot exhaust w/o a catalytic converter
-no EGR
-no TB coolant lines
-dynotuner piggyback computer
-MSD 6A ignition and blaster coil and wires

theres lots of other things but the above items are the big things...

hope that helps!


Get rid of the Ocelot and get a Borla or have your own custom exhaust made and you can get 5-7hp. The Ocelot is no better than the stock set-up.

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1FST2M6
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Report this Post01-13-2004 02:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 1FST2M6Click Here to visit 1FST2M6's HomePageClick Here to Email 1FST2M6Send a Private Message to 1FST2M6Direct Link to This Post
154hp and 168lbft at the ground.. was the best i ever got not spraying..., cam, head work, 1.6 rockers and hella tuning.
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Report this Post01-13-2004 04:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bradbitz11Click Here to Email Bradbitz11Send a Private Message to Bradbitz11Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 1FST2M6:

154hp and 168lbft at the ground.. was the best i ever got not spraying..., cam, head work, 1.6 rockers and hella tuning.

Look who's back! Cool!

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hoola47
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Report this Post01-13-2004 06:37 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hoola47Click Here to Email hoola47Send a Private Message to hoola47Direct Link to This Post
Something just doesn't sound right, either some engines were built better than others at the factory, or some people know how to build and others don't?
In another thread in the genreral chat some people had their engines dynoed, one @ 135hp and 190tq? Whereas 1fast2m6 had 154hp and 168tq? How do you account for the difference?
Others say that they have had 190hp, if that is at the crank or wheels it is still substantially more than most?
Either way I will be running a turbo RHB5, after a bore and stroke, aggressive cam, rockers, head work, as well as throttle body and intake smoothed out.
I plan for 200+ horsepower @ the wheels.
In this same dyno topic, someone also only achieved 125hp @ the wheels with a turbo?
All in all don't count the 173cubic inch engine out, if you know what you are doing and can get around 200 hp (or more), and have more tq you will have a very fast car in my opinion. A 350cubic inch mustang, with 350 hp is a fast car, a lighter fiero with 173cubic inches and 200+ hp is going to embarass a lot of cars.


------------------
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT
Auto, soon to be 5 spd Getrag from 88 z24, Best 1/4 = 16.1 at 83mph, mods, wires, CRX intake, and power pulley. Planning Turbo 2.8 swap for a little more umph!!!!

Bought for 2500$ Canadian.

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Nashco
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Report this Post01-13-2004 07:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NashcoClick Here to visit Nashco's HomePageClick Here to Email NashcoSend a Private Message to NashcoDirect Link to This Post
The topic is on max horsepower with a STOCK 2.8, but almost every single person here has mentioned modded motors, many of them with internal mods. Wouldn't a stock 2.8 be NO mods? I can see air filter, ECM adjustments, exhaust, even intake, but when you're talking cams, different piston bore and stroke, head work etc. that doesn't seem STOCK to me at all.

va441975: When you said stock, did you mean the same block, or what?

Bryce
88 GT
edit: typo

[This message has been edited by Nashco (edited 01-13-2004).]

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Firefighter1
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Report this Post01-13-2004 08:01 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Firefighter1Click Here to Email Firefighter1Send a Private Message to Firefighter1Direct Link to This Post
Yeah, stock is stock!!!!!!!!!!!!! Add a turbo and the internals are the same, stock inside. You'll get your 200hp with the turbo. For God sake don't remove the spare tire to reduce weight. The front end of a Fiero is already too light, that's part of the steering problem. Loose 30 lbs. by going on a diet, not by removing parts.

------------------

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Report this Post01-13-2004 08:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Howard_SacksClick Here to visit Howard_Sacks's HomePageClick Here to Email Howard_SacksSend a Private Message to Howard_SacksDirect Link to This Post
welcome back!

 
quote
Originally posted by 1FST2M6:

154hp and 168lbft at the ground.. was the best i ever got not spraying..., cam, head work, 1.6 rockers and hella tuning.

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OH10fiero
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Report this Post01-13-2004 10:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OH10fieroClick Here to Email OH10fieroSend a Private Message to OH10fieroDirect Link to This Post
To answer the topic that was posted, depends on how deep you wallet is.
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sheppard00
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Report this Post01-13-2004 11:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sheppard00Click Here to visit sheppard00's HomePageClick Here to Email sheppard00Send a Private Message to sheppard00Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Nashco:

The topic is on max horsepower with a STOCK 2.8

no he just said 2.8 not stock and he even asks about mods

I don't know about hp but I have a fiero with this stuff running 8.7 1/8th mile times in an 85 4cy car with this stuff (just for referance I have a friend with a bone stock ss camaro it runs 9.2 that is spining on street tires but a win is a win)

.030 over 2.8 block Zero decked
k&n cold air
large bore throtle body
ported intakes cut to match block and head milling
ported heads with 3angel valve job and milled .030
crane compucam ? it is the biggest one they make can't rember the specs.
stock rods profiled with arp bolts and balanced
custome headers and exhaust
custome hypertech chip
160 thermostat
adj fuel press regulator set at 50psi
1.6 crane gold narrow body roller rockers
125 auto with 2500 stall shift kit and 1984 4cy drive gear and chain set
and some weight loss race seats, spare tire pan, ac, ect...

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Report this Post01-14-2004 12:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for silver86seSend a Private Message to silver86seDirect Link to This Post
ther is a thread right now in general chat about pa dyno day and some results..check it out, do a search, this question gets asked every couple weeks ..
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coinball
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Report this Post01-14-2004 07:27 AM Click Here to See the Profile for coinballClick Here to Email coinballSend a Private Message to coinballDirect Link to This Post
the 135hp/190tq was put down by a modded 3.4, not a 2.8...
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Report this Post01-14-2004 02:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hoola47Click Here to Email hoola47Send a Private Message to hoola47Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by coinball:

the 135hp/190tq was put down by a modded 3.4, not a 2.8...

My bad.

------------------
1986 Pontiac Fiero GT
Auto, soon to be 5 spd Getrag from 88 z24, Best 1/4 = 16.1 at 83mph, mods, wires, CRX intake, and power pulley. Planning Turbo 2.8 swap for a little more umph!!!!

Bought for 2500$ Canadian.

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Report this Post01-14-2004 04:28 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DanielKJenkinsClick Here to Email DanielKJenkinsSend a Private Message to DanielKJenkinsDirect Link to This Post
As a performance engine the 60 degree V6 engine is very LIMITED.

This dog won't hunt.

[This message has been edited by DanielKJenkins (edited 01-14-2004).]

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intlcutlass
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Report this Post01-14-2004 04:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for intlcutlassClick Here to Email intlcutlassSend a Private Message to intlcutlassDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DanielKJenkins:

As a performance engine the 60 degree V6 engine is very LIMITED.

This dog won't hunt.

In N/A Stock form ...I agree with that. As a matter of fact "performance 60 degree V6 engine" may in fact be an oxymoron.

But modded, there is potential, a lot of potential. As noted above, a 3.1 with a big enough turbo can make 500 hp. The author even follows that statement up with "It has been done".

Now, that said...if one were sticking to the bare bones definition of stock, I would say that 140 is about the best you would see.

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Report this Post01-14-2004 04:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DanielKJenkinsClick Here to Email DanielKJenkinsSend a Private Message to DanielKJenkinsDirect Link to This Post
$ per $

This dog won't hunt.

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Report this Post01-14-2004 04:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DanielKJenkinsClick Here to Email DanielKJenkinsSend a Private Message to DanielKJenkinsDirect Link to This Post

DanielKJenkins

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Member since Jun 2003
Look for ~200 Hp from a 3.4. The limitations of the valve train, the aftermarket parts, the knowledge base etc.

Orief has maxed the cast iron head 60 degree v6 out.

There are simply too many problems with this engine

It ain't worth the cash.

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Report this Post01-14-2004 04:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DanielKJenkinsClick Here to Email DanielKJenkinsSend a Private Message to DanielKJenkinsDirect Link to This Post
I do plan on completing my 3.4 carbed engine. I have all of the parts.


But if I was starting from scratch I would call RockCrawl or Archie. If you want a 13 second fiero you ain't gonna get it with the 60 degree V6... NOS or boost excepted.

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TaurusThug
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Report this Post01-14-2004 07:43 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TaurusThugClick Here to Email TaurusThugSend a Private Message to TaurusThugDirect Link to This Post
i can almost garuntee that you could get 1000 hp... once. it all depenps on reliability and how much cash you wanna spend. i think im gonna have a 3 or 5 angle vavle job.
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Report this Post01-14-2004 08:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for OreifClick Here to visit Oreif's HomePageClick Here to Email OreifSend a Private Message to OreifDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by TaurusThug:

i can almost garuntee that you could get 1000 hp... once. it all depenps on reliability and how much cash you wanna spend. i think im gonna have a 3 or 5 angle vavle job.

Just so you know, Stock the valves have a 4-angle valve job. I had a 5-angle done to mine.

As for 60* V-6's for power, streetable, normally aspirated, the S-10 people are getting 225hp on average and full race I have seen them get into the 260hp range normally aspirated. Considering the the "Hot Rodders rule of thumb" is 1hp per cubic inch of engine for streetable normally aspirated power, getting 190-200hp from a 2.8L is very good. That's 1.1hp per cubic inch. There are a few here getting 175-180hp out of their 2.8L engines and that is 1hp per cubic inch. Generally you should be able to get 1.5hp per cubic inch normally aspirated for a strictly race engine. So that is 260hp from a 173ci engine. (Note: this is assuming the engine has been built with heavy duty parts, I don't think a stock 2.8L bottom end will hold 260HP very long) Look at the SBC 350's, they get about 1hp per cubic inch with a mild build-up. 500hp is what a normally aspirated 350 race engine could get to at 1.5hp per cubic inch. Forced induction is suppose to be able to get to 2.0hp per cubic inch in full race set-ups. So the 3800SC could get into the 400hp range with a proper build-up and as proven by FieroX, he's running mid 11's with his, which calculated out comes to about 400hp. My 3.4L gets 1.09hp per cubic inch. Yes it has room to get more horsepower, but then streetability starts to fall off. So "performance" is only limited by the size of the engine.

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Report this Post01-15-2004 01:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for red85gtClick Here to visit red85gt's HomePageClick Here to Email red85gtSend a Private Message to red85gtDirect Link to This Post
Some time in the near future I am building a 12:1 2.8. shooting for 230Hp. With a carb. Custom intake true dual exhaust. Cam yad yada. For racing only. I think 150hp is a good goal for a slightly modded 2.8. Bigger cam bored plenum TB and good exhaust.

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85 GT 4 speed 2.8L auto X'er

[This message has been edited by red85gt (edited 01-15-2004).]

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