I want to build a nasty fast Fiero, and have been considering all the engine options. I had the 3800SC on top of my list, but now have the opportunity to buy a Northstar with special cams, getrag, quartermaster clutch, and computer (to make it work with stick) for a good price. Does anyone have horsepower and torque numbers on both for a comparison?
From a performance standpoint, I want Fiero that will do 0-60 in 4 seconds (or less), no NOS. I'm not concerned with top speed. The car must be streetable. The Northstar with getrag might not be the best combo for that goal, but I may still do the Northstar build just to do it. The Northstar might not be my ultimate Fiero, but I'm curious about the numbers.
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11:21 AM
PFF
System Bot
Fiero STS Member
Posts: 2045 From: Wyoming, MN. usa Registered: Nov 2001
300 RWHP should get you low 12's in the QM. As far as 0-60 goes, the Getrag's gearing works against you a bit there, but low 4's should also be easily attainable.
From whom are you buying this Northstar, and exactly what's been done to it? Which cams? Contrary to popular belief, at high HP levels the cost difference between 3800SC and Northstar is minimal.
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12:16 PM
PURPLE REIGN Member
Posts: 4080 From: Minnesnowta ------------------ Land of White Gold Registered: Sep 2002
Remember torque is the 0-60 factor. Just for a comparison, and not to bash the N* cause I like that motor. But if your looking for a light to light Fiero the 3800 S.C. is built for low end grunt. If you want to be able to break necks over the headrest, this is the motor to do it. While the N* is a powerful V-8, it is condidered to be a "wind-up" motor. Your horsepower isn't seen until it is higher in the RPM's. By then the 3800 S.C. is already at the next light
Plus a lot of future mods can be done to the 3800 S.C. to make it even more of a broadband motor.
P.S. They are a lot easier to install too
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12:19 PM
mcaanda Member
Posts: 3652 From: Grand Junction Colorado Registered: Mar 2003
Bear, it seems that w/ the fact that you have the "ability" to get a N* that already had the cam replaced and upgraded, I'd possibly go that route. It seems that with the N*, the major issues are the fact that there are only a handful of companies that are even making aftermarket parts for the motor. And, from what I have been reading, there is only one that does the PCM issues w/ manual transmission. If this has been completed already, and the pricing difference between the two of the setups are close, I'd go w/ the exotic, and less taken route.
Personally, I went w/ the 38oo S/C being that I'm a whiner, and I want my car to whine too! Actually, I was looking long term goals, and cost effectiveness, and I didnt find it in the N*. The ability to mod the car / motor are greater w/ the 38oo, and the support of the aftermarket community is just wonderful.
Here's a little to make the choice a little harder, as they are both really great looking motors, especially that N* .
It seems that you can get that 38oo S/C Series III cover for only 6o'ish from the dealer as well. Being that I'm going to use the "beauty cover" anyhow, that might actually be an option. W/ the Series III reduced to a II on there though!
Being that you are also in CA, well I'm sure that there is no need for that there. AZ isn't that far away, and P.O. Boxes are cheap!
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12:22 PM
Fiero STS Member
Posts: 2045 From: Wyoming, MN. usa Registered: Nov 2001
Remember torque is the 0-60 factor. Just for a comparison, and not to bash the N* cause I like that motor. But if your looking for a light to light Fiero the 3800 S.C. is built for low end grunt. If you want to be able to break necks over the headrest, this is the motor to do it. While the N* is a powerful V-8, it is condidered to be a "wind-up" motor. Your horsepower isn't seen until it is higher in the RPM's. By then the 3800 S.C. is already at the next light
That is if you can keep them running from light to light.
Like Will said the biggest problem with the N* is the trans gearing that is currently availible. given the proper gearing the 3800 sc doesn't stand a chance if both motors are stock.
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12:30 PM
GSXRBOBBY Member
Posts: 3122 From: Southern Indiana USA Registered: Aug 2003
That is if you can keep them running from light to light.
Like Will said the biggest problem with the N* is the trans gearing that is currently availible. given the proper gearing the 3800 sc doesn't stand a chance if both motors are stock.
Smart alec
I'll take you on that light ot light bet with the same gearing. Like I said the N* is a wind-up motor.
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12:51 PM
LoW_KeY Member
Posts: 8081 From: Hastings, MI Registered: Oct 2001
If I could get my final drive ratio down to 4.56 we would have some fun then, too bad 3.73 is the lowest I can go. p.s. If I can pick which two light we go between.
[This message has been edited by Fiero STS (edited 01-09-2004).]
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01:38 PM
PFF
System Bot
fierobear Member
Posts: 27075 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
300 RWHP should get you low 12's in the QM. As far as 0-60 goes, the Getrag's gearing works against you a bit there, but low 4's should also be easily attainable.
From whom are you buying this Northstar, and exactly what's been done to it? Which cams? Contrary to popular belief, at high HP levels the cost difference between 3800SC and Northstar is minimal.
Ultimately, I'm guessing a beefy automatic, perhaps with a shift kit or some kind of modifications, would be better for raw off-the-line performance. A stick shift is probably not the best for what amounts to a street dragster.
I'm not sure what to expect from this Northstar, but I'd like to try it.
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02:18 PM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5919 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
No offense to the N* people but I am having a hard time understanding where the costs of these two different powerplants are even remotely related. With that being said, bone stock vs bone stock it is pretty close but even the slightest mods done to the 3800II SC are giving it the edge. Just look at the 1/4 mile list. The hop-up mods that can be done to the 3800II SC are cheap and the only mods that I know of for the N* are head porting and cams, both of which add another $2000+ to the price tag, not to mention the custom chip costs. By the time you spend $2000 in mods on a 3800II SC, you should be running 11's.
Does the stock N* put out more power than the stock 3800II SC? Yes. But there seem to be issues as far as the PCM is concerned when using the N* outside of a caddy which appears to limit its power. Once these isses get worked out, I have no doubt that a lot of stock N* equipped Fieros will show up running low 13's or even faster. But until then, it is simply CHEAPER to go faster with a 3800II SC than a N*, and that is a proven FACT.
Aside from that, I still hold the opinion that the N* is quite possibly the best 60mph kick-down engine out there for the Fiero; again if we are talking stock vs. stock. But for dead stop, light-to-light contests, there are better engines...
------------------ power corrupts. absolute power corrupts absolutely.
From what I've seen, here ( Pennocks) and at the 20th, the times the N*'s are posting are already in the mid to low 13s. And all of these are still in stock trim. How expensive do you think the first gen 3800 were to mod. I see the N* is more limited by the chassis it was put in than actual potential. Now that it is being used in rear wheel drive cars the hp ratings are also starting to go up. And if it ever gets into high production performance cars. Then the aftermarket will fallow.
Did you get all the performance parts with it? I know he had a boatload of cool stuff.
[This message has been edited by Fiero STS (edited 01-09-2004).]
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03:17 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27075 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by Fiero STS: Did you get all the performance parts with it? I know he had a boatload of cool stuff.
I got a special set of cams, and a computer that will make the getrag work with it. I have doubts that the getrag will hold up. I don't want to build something I have to baby around. I want to hammer it.
I don't know if a getrag is the best idea, but I may give it a try. This setup is somewhat experimental, to see how it perfoms. We're talking about doing a 3800SC, in addition, and comparing them (when I say we, I'm talking about me and pokeyfiero, whose shop we'll use for the work). I'll keep one, he'll keep one, or we will sell the one that isn't doing what we need.
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05:13 PM
Fiero STS Member
Posts: 2045 From: Wyoming, MN. usa Registered: Nov 2001
If you decide not to use the cams let me know I might be interested if the price is right.
Will is running a getrag behind his N* seems to be holding up ok, but the gearing is not optimal for the N*. He was looking at some other trans gear sets to see if he could come up with a better spread for the N*. He posted a pretty complete set of install pics and descriptions on here.
Using the Holley Commander and wiring harness from California Hotrod Fabricators will make the install alot easier.
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05:22 PM
mshill Member
Posts: 981 From: Rocklin, CA, USA Registered: Aug 99
What's the average cost to have someone else do a turnkey install? I'm having a modded L67 installed with less than 56k with power steering added for less than $6000. I'll let you know what it runs when IRP opens up. Hopefully I can get side by side in my friend's 88 GT that is N* powered, that has $20k install by Kevin Leslie.
Greg
------------------
"HAPPINESS IS BEING BLOWN" L67, FieroX Valve Covers, 180 Degree Stat, 4T65E-HD, Intense LSD, Intense Shift Kit, Tranny Cooler, Stage 4 ZZP Intake + Blower, XP-Hot Cam, DUB 3.0-3.25", Gator Belts, Custom DHP, MSD DIS-4, CAI, TB Spacer, WCF Headers, EGR Delete, Borla Exhaust, Held Motorsports Front Slalom Racing Suspension, Coilovers, 12" Wilwood Brakes, 88 Rear Cradle (POR-15), and POWER STEERING!
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05:31 PM
Fiero STS Member
Posts: 2045 From: Wyoming, MN. usa Registered: Nov 2001
If I could get my final drive ratio down to 4.56 we would have some fun then, too bad 3.73 is the lowest I can go. p.s. If I can pick which two light we go between.
Any reason not to use the '84 4.10 4 speed? They've got a really deep first gear and a wide ratio set. Not sure about the strength compared with a Getrag.
GL
[This message has been edited by Tugboat (edited 01-09-2004).]
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07:32 PM
LoW_KeY Member
Posts: 8081 From: Hastings, MI Registered: Oct 2001
Any reason not to use the '84 4.10 4 speed? They've got a really deep first gear and a wide ratio set. Not sure about the strength compared with a Getrag.
GL
4.10's your going to spin like crazy! then your top end will be rather dead not to mention it was 4 cylinder tranny. I haven't had any probs with my trans (getrag) and I don't baby it, but I don't abuse it either
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07:38 PM
pokeyfiero Member
Posts: 16189 From: Free America! Registered: Dec 2003
Any reason not to use the '84 4.10 4 speed? They've got a really deep first gear and a wide ratio set. Not sure about the strength compared with a Getrag.
GL
well i like the 4 spd idea cause i just like four spds.and isn't the problem with the northstar not having enough torqe?and it revs like a demon so i would still get a good top speed out of her? yes- no who has these answers?
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08:08 PM
fierobear Member
Posts: 27075 From: Safe in the Carolinas Registered: Aug 2000
Originally posted by Fiero STS: How expensive do you think the first gen 3800 were to mod.
Pretty expensive IF you could find the parts to mod them. But then again, I was not referring to the Series I (gen 1) 3800 either.
Don't get me wrong tho, I think the N* is a great engine and one can only hope that the aftermarket really explodes for these engines just like it has for the L67.
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12:40 AM
Jan 19th, 2004
Fiero STS Member
Posts: 2045 From: Wyoming, MN. usa Registered: Nov 2001
Remember torque is the 0-60 factor. Just for a comparison, and not to bash the N* cause I like that motor. But if your looking for a light to light Fiero the 3800 S.C. is built for low end grunt. If you want to be able to break necks over the headrest, this is the motor to do it. While the N* is a powerful V-8, it is condidered to be a "wind-up" motor. Your horsepower isn't seen until it is higher in the RPM's. By then the 3800 S.C. is already at the next light
At about 2k both engines make the same HP and have about the same torque, difference is the l67 runs out of both torque and hp before the N* At 4 grand the L67 has reached peak torque and is at 200 hp the N* is at about the same torque and 50 hp higher. The l67's torque drops off fast and peak hp at 250hp at 5500, N* Still making hp up to 6200. And making more torque than the l67. So the wind up motor is more of a torque monster than most people know or care to admit.
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Does the stock N* put out more power than the stock 3800II SC? Yes. But there seem to be issues as far as the PCM is concerned when using the N* outside of a caddy which appears to limit its power. Once these isses get worked out, I have no doubt that a lot of stock N* equipped Fieros will show up running low 13's or even faster. But until then, it is simply CHEAPER to go faster with a 3800II SC than a N*, and that is a proven FACT.
Malarkey. I got my stock Northstar car into the 12's last fall. I've added Koni struts since then and could probably knock another tenth off my 60'. Planning 11's this year. We'll see how much money I spend. I haven't seen a stock L67 5 speed crack 12's. I don't think I will because it's at least 40 HP down from where it needs to be. There are more L67's going fast than Northstars because there are just more L67's than Northstars
Anyone know the redline of the L67 compared to the VIN9 Northstar?
Will a L67 ever see 6000rpm? I'm trying to decide if this engine is what I want and I sure as hell don't need another motor that is gonna run out of steam at 5200
------------------ I live my life a quarter-pounder at a time. And for those 500 calories or more, I am free. There she is, 2 pounds of pure beef. My dad ate it in 9.0 seconds flat.
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11:38 AM
Darth Fiero Member
Posts: 5919 From: Waterloo, Indiana Registered: Oct 2002
The stock L67 can turn 6000rpm (but the stock computer programming may not let it go that high). I have even heard some people taking it to 6400rpm but I won't. The Series III 3800 SC's have powdered metal connecting rods which should allow for more RPM. But then the question becomes: do you really need to spin it that high?
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11:58 AM
LoW_KeY Member
Posts: 8081 From: Hastings, MI Registered: Oct 2001
yeah I'm with Darth, seen it 6200 do you want to go that high though... Trust me it doesn't run out of steam at 5200 it rips all the way 6000 like no tomorrow.
When I go through the gears my eyes are focused on the RPM's like no tomorrow
It seems like everybody is going L67... My dad has a 2000 Buick Regal GS and I have drove it many times. I couldn't image this engine in a car as light as a fiero. i just joined L67swap.com so i'll be asking you guys more questions over there.
------------------ I live my life a quarter-pounder at a time. And for those 500 calories or more, I am free. There she is, 2 pounds of pure beef. My dad ate it in 9.0 seconds flat.