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Steve Normington.....fuel pump by DavidStremer
Started on: 01-02-2004 02:07 PM
Replies: 31
Last post by: Tugboat on 01-08-2004 07:10 AM
DavidStremer
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Report this Post01-02-2004 02:07 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DavidStremerClick Here to Email DavidStremerSend a Private Message to DavidStremerDirect Link to This Post
Steve: here is situation I have: ECM turns fuel pump on when key is turned on. Fuel pump shuts off after
a few seconds. With engine running the oil pressure guage is working correctly.
From above, I theorize that, therefore, the relay is working and the oil pressure switch/sensor
is working correctly.
NOW, here is the problem: If I jiggle or wiggle the plug for the oil pressure ssensor/switch it will turn the
fuel pump on...... with the ignition key in the "off" position.
I have two questions: 1) what is the purpose of an electronic relay? and 2) do you agree that the most likely cause of the
fuel pump turning on is because of a poor connection between the plug and the oil pressor switch?
According to what I read the oil switch should only activate if oil pressure is above 4psi. This would mean, I'm guessing, that
the engine would have to be running.
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buddycraigg
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Report this Post01-02-2004 04:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggClick Here to Email buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post
I wonder how many people that know the answer to this are simply waiting for steve to answer your question?

------------------
Buddy - there are two "G"s in my name
Ling = 84SE-350-N2O-Poly-Mr.Mike seats-Sequential turn signals-short shifter
Julia C = 85GT stock (mostly)
KCFOG
got a broken stud?
car doesn't crank over?

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84se-Stock
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Report this Post01-02-2004 05:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 84se-StockSend a Private Message to 84se-StockDirect Link to This Post
I also have a fuel pump question...when I turn the key to the "on" position the fuel pump does not turn on. I can start the car by dripping some fuel in the throttle body and then the fuel pump runs fine. Sorry for pirating this post...just thought it would save me from taking up server space with a new topic.

Thanks in advance

------------------
Caleb Sarty

Breakdowns/Accidents since November 6th 2003: 3 (I'm sure there are more to come)

build it faster...build it stronger...built it louder...build it sexier...but keep it fiero

[This message has been edited by 84se-Stock (edited 01-02-2004).]

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buddycraigg
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Report this Post01-02-2004 06:30 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggClick Here to Email buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by 84se-Stock:
I can start the car by dripping some fuel in the throttle body and then the fuel pump runs fine

the pump should run for a few seconds when you first turn on the key.
the reason it stays running is after the engine has oil pressure the oil sending unit is keeping the pump running.
you have 3 things that can keep the pump from running when you first turn the key.
1) fuel pump relay, one of the top two by the left hinge. the bottom two are for the 3rd break light/turn signals.
2) problem with wires going to relay
3) ECM is bad.

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DavidStremer
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Report this Post01-02-2004 09:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DavidStremerClick Here to Email DavidStremerSend a Private Message to DavidStremerDirect Link to This Post
Buddy....do you know the answers to my questions?
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Steve Normington
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Report this Post01-03-2004 01:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Steve NormingtonClick Here to Email Steve NormingtonSend a Private Message to Steve NormingtonDirect Link to This Post
AHHH!! The pressure! The pressure!

The purpose of the electronic relay is so that the ECM will not have the full current for the fuel pump running through it. Only the current required to trip the relay will be running through the ECM.

The fuel pump turning on would not be related to a poor connection (an open circuit). A poor connection would more likely to cause the fuel pump to not turn on when it should. The oil pressure switch closes the circuit to turn on the fuel pump, so a bad (open) connection would keep the pump off.

My guess would be that the wiring on the oil pressure sensor is faulty and/or the insulation on the wires is stripped. When you wiggle the plug, the two wires touch, making the connection like if the oil pressure was above 4 psi.

Your stastement is correct, the oil pressure switch is a backup to the relay/ECM. As long as the engine is running, the oil pressure should be above 4 psi, keeping the voltage to the fuel pump even if the relay/ECM fails.

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Report this Post01-03-2004 09:11 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DavidStremerClick Here to Email DavidStremerSend a Private Message to DavidStremerDirect Link to This Post
Steve, good to hear from you. I need to think about what you said until I understand.
I read that the switch in the oil pressure sensor/switch is always open (always on). So, then
that means that the relay directs current from the ECM to the fuel pump, when the engine is cranked.
Here is where I am confused, does the relay then close when the oil pressure sensor/switch reaches 4psi and starts sending
current so the oil sensor can start powering the fuel pump?

Also, does the oil pressure sensor switch act as an "engine kill switch" if the oil pressure drops to less than 4psi?
Thanks

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DavidStremer
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Report this Post01-03-2004 10:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DavidStremerClick Here to Email DavidStremerSend a Private Message to DavidStremerDirect Link to This Post
STEVE>>>>PLEASE READ THIS FIRST I went back to the manual and I NOW understand that referring
to a switch as "open or closed" means just the opposite of what I thought it meant. The oil preswsure switch
is normally open which means it is "off."
The switch should close "turn on", when oil pressure reaches 4psi....whether the engine is cranking or running.
Theerefore, my problem is that the oil switch is remaining closed (on) at all times. The switch should open (turn off")
when the engine stops running and the oil pressure falls below 4psi.
The oil switch/sensor seems faily simple. The tan prong wire goes to the guage. The pink/black wire supplies power to the sensor switch. The black wire
provides power to fuel pump when switch is closed "on."
Do you know where on the relay I will find the power wire from the oil pressure switch?
Also, I do not have a schematic of the electrical system. so I don't know where the power comes from to turn the switch off when engine oil pressure drops
below 4 psi. Is this done at the switch via guage....or is it done via a message from the
relay?
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Steve Normington
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Report this Post01-03-2004 11:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Steve NormingtonClick Here to Email Steve NormingtonSend a Private Message to Steve NormingtonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Do you know where on the relay I will find the power wire from the oil pressure switch?

You won't. The relay is a seperate system from the oil pressure switch.

 
quote
Also, I do not have a schematic of the electrical system. so I don't know where the power comes from to turn the switch off when engine oil pressure drops
below 4 psi. Is this done at the switch via guage....or is it done via a message from the
relay?

The oil pressure switch turns itself off. There is a spring inside that will break the connection when the oil pressure falls below 4 psi.

BTW, here is a lovely image of the fuel system. Scroll to the bottom left of the page and you'll see the fuel system. Note that the oil pressure switch and relay both get 12 V via the Orange/Black wire. And they both supply 12 V to the fuel pump via the Tan/White wire. But the two systems are completely independant of one another. The relay can function with the oil pressure switch removed completely. And the oil pressure switch can function with the relay removed completely. There are two systems for redundancy, so you don't find your fuel pump cutting off when you are in the middle of the freeway.

What I would do to find why your fuel pump is constantly running is this: With the engine stopped, disconnect the oil pressure switch connector and the fuel pump relay. Check the continuity across terminals A and C on the switch (not the connector). You should have an open circuit. Wiggle/tap/jiggle/etc the switch. (Don't wiggle/tap/jiggle/etc too hard or you could damage the oil line, just a gentle wiggle should do it.) The circuit should remain open. If you get continuity any time during this test, then your oil pressure switch is broken. Then check the voltage across terminals A and C on the connector. Wiggle/tap/jiggle/etc the connector. The voltage should stay at 12 V. If the voltage drops to 0 V or the fuel pump starts running at any time during this test, then the problem is in the wiring to or from the connector.

Note: Make sure that if you do get continuity or 0 V, that it is not due to the test leads coming off the connector or touching each other.

Edit: Just to make sure:

 
quote

Here is where I am confused, does the relay then close when the oil pressure sensor/switch reaches 4psi and starts sending
current so the oil sensor can start powering the fuel pump?

Also, does the oil pressure sensor switch act as an "engine kill switch" if the oil pressure drops to less than 4psi?

The relay closes (makes the connection) when the ECM tells it too. The relay is independant of the oil pressure switch.

No, the oil pressure switch acts as a backup if the relay fails. If your oil pressure were to fall to 0 while the engine is running, the oil pressure switch would turn off, but the ECM would still be commanding the relay to supply voltage to the fuel pump, so the fuel pump would stay on.

[This message has been edited by Steve Normington (edited 01-03-2004).]

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DavidStremer
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Report this Post01-04-2004 10:54 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DavidStremerClick Here to Email DavidStremerSend a Private Message to DavidStremerDirect Link to This Post
Steve: good morning....it is nine degrees above zero here. Not bad for early January in Wisconsin, but still cold enough to be uncomfortable working on a car in an unheated garage. Temperature is supposed to go to minus 10 degrees by Tuesday, so I gotta keep hustling.
I have two simple electrical questions: 1) I know resistance is measured in ohlms and I know how to measure it with my multimeter. However, when one says "if you get continuity," does that mean you have low resistance (measuring 1.00 or less) or you have infinate resistance (measuring 1.000)?
2) How the devil does one get the relay apart? I noted the large plastic clip on the relay and tried to pull the wire end of the relay loose, but it would not come. Is it supposed to...?

I DID, HOWEVER, manage to disengage the relay enough to turn it off. With the relay disconnected, I get 1.00 ohlms and it remains the same as I jiggle the switch. With the relay connected, I get a reading of .5 ohlms. This remains constant as I wiggle the plug.
The voltage tests on the connector were done WITH THE RELAY connected, I have 12 volts coming into the connector plug "A". Voltage is transferring to plug C as I get 12 volts when I measure from a to C.
WHEN I connect the connector to the oil switch, however, the fuel pump still begins to run.
ASSUMPTION: THE OIL SWITCH IS BAD?

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Steve Normington
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Report this Post01-04-2004 01:34 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Steve NormingtonClick Here to Email Steve NormingtonSend a Private Message to Steve NormingtonDirect Link to This Post
Good morning. It is 55 F here today. Still kind of cold to be out working.

Continuity is when the resistance is very low. Open is when the resistance is very high (or infinite). Basically, if you touch the two probes of your meter together, you'll have continuity. When they aren't touching anything, you have an open circuit.

Sorry for the confusion. You don't need to disassemble the relay, only remove the wiring from it.

I'm a bit confused about your post. The relay is the square object on the firewall, by the air filter. The switch is the cylinder near the battery. If the fuel pump was running, then you disconnected the relay and the fuel pump shut off, that means you have a bad relay. But then you said you connected the switch and the fuel pump started up. This either means that we have some confusion or both items are bad (which is very unlikely).

If you get voltage from A to C, that is what you should get. Remember that voltage is the difference in the electrical "pressure" between two points. If the two wires were connected, you wouldn't get any voltage. So it seems that the wiring is okay.

The readings of 1.00 ohms and .5 ohms, was that when you checked the resistance of the switch between A and C with the switch's wiring removed? This should be infinite or very high. If this is low, then it appears the switch is bad.

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Report this Post01-04-2004 01:44 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
DavidStremer, can you post a picture of your meter that shows the controls and lettering on the front? I want to see what you've got.

JazzMan

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Report this Post01-04-2004 06:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DavidStremerClick Here to Email DavidStremerSend a Private Message to DavidStremerDirect Link to This Post
Hello Steve, Jazzman: FIRST OF ALL, I replaced oil pressure switch and problem with fuel pump is solved. JAZZMAN: I also fixed cruise control problem with car. The connector into which the stalk cable is inserted was bad. I wired the stalk wires to the connector wires and cruise works fine. The ohlms were as you said they would be when I applied the multimeter to the stalk wires.
REGARDING THE QUESTION OF CONTINUITY AND INFINATE RESISTANCE: From your explasnations, if a switch is closed (on) there will be continuity because resistance will be low. Ohlms should read less than 1.00 if set to correct range. If, on the other hand, the switch is open (off)continuity will be interrupted and resistance will be high. Ohlmeter will read 1.000 or (infinate). Is that correct?
I know the difference between the oil switch, and the relay, and the oil switch connector you were talking about. In my post, I meant that the fuel pump would start to run whenever I attached the oil pressure switch connector to the oil pressure switch. I measured the ohlms on prong A and C of the switch. The ohlms read .5 (continuity). This seemed to indicate that the switch was stuck in the closed (on) position
and also explained why the fuel pump continued to run when the engine and key were turned off.
As for the relay: I can't get the wires to release from the relay body. There is a plastic clip that holds the wire plug inside the relay, but when I loosen the clip the wires and the plug will not come loose. How do I get the wire and plug out of the relay? Is the plug stuck?
In my post, I meant that I could not get wires loose from relay, but I managed to loosen the plug and wires enough to disconnect from the relay. When I measured the resistance between plugs A and C of the oil pressure connector, with the relay wires detached, I had an infinate reading of 1.000. With the relay wires in place in the relay, I get a reading of .5. This should be correct, since with the wires in place (circuit closed) I should have continuity. With the wires removed from relay, I have an opoen circuit and resistance is infinate. Do you follow my thought?
I will get a photo og my multimeter and post it , Jazzman. Right now, though, my brain is reeling from all the knowledge you two have been kind enough to feed me. David
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Steve Normington
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Report this Post01-05-2004 09:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Steve NormingtonClick Here to Email Steve NormingtonSend a Private Message to Steve NormingtonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DavidStremer:
REGARDING THE QUESTION OF CONTINUITY AND INFINATE RESISTANCE: From your explasnations, if a switch is closed (on) there will be continuity because resistance will be low. Ohlms should read less than 1.00 if set to correct range. If, on the other hand, the switch is open (off)continuity will be interrupted and resistance will be high. Ohlmeter will read 1.000 or (infinate). Is that correct?

Correct. Typically, a closed switch will read 0 ohms or close to it. Glad your car is working again.

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Report this Post01-05-2004 10:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DavidStremerClick Here to Email DavidStremerSend a Private Message to DavidStremerDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the help.......I am going to close this post and start a new one with Jazzman regarding the multimeter.
You have helped. I have two objectives: 1) I want to be able to fix my car, and 2) I want to understand what
understand how to diagnose what is wrong with it.
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Report this Post01-05-2004 10:41 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TugboatSend a Private Message to TugboatDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DavidStremer:

REGARDING THE QUESTION OF CONTINUITY AND INFINATE RESISTANCE: From your explasnations, if a switch is closed (on) there will be continuity because resistance will be low. Ohlms should read less than 1.00 if set to correct range. If, on the other hand, the switch is open (off)continuity will be interrupted and resistance will be high. Ohlmeter will read 1.000 or (infinate). Is that correct?

Sorry to nitpick, but I think this deserves some clarification. Continuity means a complete circuit, whether it's 0 ohms or 10,000 ohms. Infinite resistance is an open circuit and is what is indicated when a digital meter flashes 1.000.

GL

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Steve Normington
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Report this Post01-05-2004 11:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Steve NormingtonClick Here to Email Steve NormingtonSend a Private Message to Steve NormingtonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tugboat:

Sorry to nitpick, but I think this deserves some clarification. Continuity means a complete circuit, whether it's 0 ohms or 10,000 ohms. Infinite resistance is an open circuit and is what is indicated when a digital meter flashes 1.000.

GL

That is correct. I was using 0 because David is a bit new to electrical diagnosis.

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Report this Post01-05-2004 06:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggClick Here to Email buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Steve Normington:

I was using 0 because David is a bit new to electrical diagnosis.

and i told him it was the pressure switch 3 days ago.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 01-05-2004).]

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Report this Post01-05-2004 11:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TugboatSend a Private Message to TugboatDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Steve Normington:

That is correct. I was using 0 because David is a bit new to electrical diagnosis.

I just didn't want him to think a circuit with a few ohms is an open circuit...

With the digital meters I've experienced, if it's not flashing you've got some continuity.

GL

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Report this Post01-06-2004 12:46 AM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggClick Here to Email buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post
my fluke doesn't flash with an open circuit
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Report this Post01-06-2004 08:29 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TugboatSend a Private Message to TugboatDirect Link to This Post
How does it indicate open? ---? I assumed the meter in question flashed 1.000 because of the conversation. ("Ohlmeter will read 1.000 or (infinate).") A steady 1.000 to indicate open would be kind of confusing, do they do that?

GL

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Report this Post01-06-2004 08:42 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DavidStremerClick Here to Email DavidStremerSend a Private Message to DavidStremerDirect Link to This Post
Thanks, men, I assume ohlms of resistance will increase as the guage (thickness) of the wire increases?
Buddy, my boy, why didn't you respond when I asked if you knew what was wrong? There was on 1/2/04 at 9:50 PM...
certainly enough time.
I have found that I need to be careful about the advice I follow on this forum. There are many "wannabe" mechanics out
there and they have steered me wrong in the past.
I was in Vietnam in 1968 as with the Army's "Fifth Mech." I have a CIB and a Purple Heart and I don't have much patience
with people who are not willing to put their money on the table.
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Report this Post01-06-2004 10:09 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Steve NormingtonClick Here to Email Steve NormingtonSend a Private Message to Steve NormingtonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DavidStremer:

Thanks, men, I assume ohlms of resistance will increase as the guage (thickness) of the wire increases?

Actually, it is the other way around. All else being equal, a thicker wire (lower guage number) will have less resistance. Think of it as a road. With an equal amount of cars, will the traffic be better on a 4 lane than a 2 lane road?

The electronic meters I've seen have no display when they detect an open.

And you gave him a list of three things it could be.

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Report this Post01-06-2004 01:47 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggClick Here to Email buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DavidStremer:
Buddy, my boy, why didn't you respond when I asked if you knew what was wrong? There was on 1/2/04 at 9:50 PM... certainly enough time.

i responded in your other thread
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/045011.html at 01-02-2004 11:52 PM.

that's only 2 hours, how much faster could i be?

But it seems that I misunderstood what you wanted anyway. You didnít simply want the answer that the problem was with the sending unit. You wanted to learn about the fuel pumpís electrical system, how it all worked together. So you will be better at diagnosing problems if something else comes up. Which I commend you for.

And about getting bogus info. Most of the people here want to help and no one is perfect. Youíve already received incorrect information from someone that you respect and trust on here.

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Report this Post01-06-2004 01:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggClick Here to Email buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Steve Normington:
And you gave him a list of three things it could be.

touche

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 01-06-2004).]

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Report this Post01-06-2004 02:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Steve NormingtonClick Here to Email Steve NormingtonSend a Private Message to Steve NormingtonDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by buddycraigg:

i responded in your other thread
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/045011.html at 01-02-2004 11:52 PM.

that's only 2 hours, how much faster could i be?

But it seems that I misunderstood what you wanted anyway. You didnít simply want the answer that the problem was with the sending unit. You wanted to learn about the fuel pumpís electrical system, how it all worked together. So you will be better at diagnosing problems if something else comes up. Which I commend you for.

And about getting bogus info. Most of the people here want to help and no one is perfect. Youíve already received incorrect information from someone that you respect and trust on here.

Oops, my bad, you did tell him it was the sending unit. David, this is one reason why it is not a good idea to post multiple threads on one technical issue.

FMI, do we have a guessing game and who the person was and what the incorrect information is? I guess it was me and the incorrect information was that 0 ohms was continuity.

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Report this Post01-06-2004 06:51 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggClick Here to Email buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post
no it wasn't you steve, and it's not a guessing game. i'll pm the person. Iím snotty at times and let my butt do the talking but I try not to say that someone is wrong or do any finger pointing openly in the forums. Whenever possible I suggest to them that they may have made a mistake, so then they can edit their post or whatever.

I once gave completely off the wall advice on how to tighten the alternator belt on an archie kit. Thankfully our fellow PFFers didnít lynch me. I like the PFF community for the most part and think that we should show each other some courtesy.

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Report this Post01-06-2004 08:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for TugboatSend a Private Message to TugboatDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by DavidStremer:

Thanks, men, I assume ohlms of resistance will increase as the guage (thickness) of the wire increases?
Buddy, my boy, why didn't you respond when I asked if you knew what was wrong? There was on 1/2/04 at 9:50 PM...
certainly enough time.
I have found that I need to be careful about the advice I follow on this forum. There are many "wannabe" mechanics out
there and they have steered me wrong in the past.
I was in Vietnam in 1968 as with the Army's "Fifth Mech." I have a CIB and a Purple Heart and I don't have much patience
with people who are not willing to put their money on the table.

The way this thread is going, I hesitant to add to it. I'm new here so I guess I'm not the respected one. I did check 2 of my meters and OOPS! they don't flash. I know I've had a meter that did though. My point was that 1 or more ohms does not indicate an open circuit.

Anyway, a good way to think about electrical current flow is to compare it to water. Voltage is like pressure pushing water through a pipe. Amperage is the amount flowing. Resistance is like a constriction. A smaller pipe or wire has more resistance to flow than a bigger one. Hope this helps.

GL

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buddycraigg
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Report this Post01-06-2004 09:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for buddycraiggClick Here to Email buddycraiggSend a Private Message to buddycraiggDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Tugboat:
The way this thread is going, I hesitant to add to it.

alot of that is my fault i suppose.

Sometimes Iím too in touch with my feminine side and can be a real b1tch .

And I always use the water metaphor to explain electricity too, so at least in my book you did a great job.

[This message has been edited by buddycraigg (edited 01-06-2004).]

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Steve Normington
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Report this Post01-07-2004 10:18 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Steve NormingtonClick Here to Email Steve NormingtonSend a Private Message to Steve NormingtonDirect Link to This Post
Don't worry about the bad advice buddy, I've given advice that I've later found to be wrong.

And I too use the water analogy to explain most electrical items, but I'd heard the freeway one in aviation school and wanted to try it out.

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DavidStremer
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Report this Post01-07-2004 02:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for DavidStremerClick Here to Email DavidStremerSend a Private Message to DavidStremerDirect Link to This Post
Buddy: appreciate your response. I stand corrected, and I apologize for jumping the gun.
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Tugboat
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Report this Post01-08-2004 07:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TugboatSend a Private Message to TugboatDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by buddycraigg:

Sometimes Iím too in touch with my feminine side and can be a real b1tch .


"You mean we've got a feminine side and we haven't been touching it??" - from Herman's Head

GL

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