I noticed today while driving my Formula that the steering column seemed to have more slack in it than usual - like the tilt wheel was a bit loose, letting the column move up and down slightly in the notch. Well, on the way home it started getting worse. Now the column moves from side to side too. I started taking the dash apart, but ran out of light. As far as I can tell, the column below the tilt-wheel pivot is stable as a rock, and it's the entire column from the tilt pivot to the wheel that's loose. This sounds like there's a loose bolt or something at the pivot.

Question: How do I get to it, and is this something I can tighten up or fix myself without having to pull the column out of the car? It sounds like a simple loose bolt, but I can't tell where. There's a cover over the section of column between the tilt pivot and the dashboard. How do I remove that? I think if I can get that off, I may be able to see what's going on.

It doesn't appear to be just the column mounting bolts, as I checked those and the lower column is solid.

Any help is greatly appreciated.

Oh, and my Hayne's manual is COMPLETELY USELESS on this. It doesn't even mention how to remove the column, let alone service anything on it.

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[This message has been edited by Formula88 (edited 12-12-2003).]

http://www.fieros.de/en/articles/steering.html

thats what i used when i had to retighten mine. plan on it taking anywhere from 2-4 hours. you will need a steeringwheel puller, a locking plate remover, pivot pin remover, and some loctite so the bolts dont loosen up again

[This message has been edited by derangedsheep (edited 12-12-2003).]

THANKS!! Sounds like a PITA, but I'll give it a try. I'm hoping it's those torx bolts. You wouldn't happen to know what size they are, would you? If I have to go get a steering wheel puller and crap, I might as well get the right size sockets, too.

Oh, and I'd give you a + for helping so fast, but you already had one from me.

*Yet another reason why I LOVE this Forum!! - Thanks, Cliff*

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There is nothing AT the pivot that can loosen. Of course there are 4 bolts, as you know that need tightening.

That side piece you speak of should come loose when you pull the upper column up.....and much harder is getting it back in position when you reassemble. I've done hundreds of these...literally. This is one of the things that I recommend either a very talented consumer or an GM experienced auto tech. Good luck.

Phil

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87 FIERO GT 2.8 5spd

If you found my advice helpful, please take the time to give me a positive rating. Thanks

Welcome to the world of the GM/Saganaw steering column. I think every one ever made has eventually come loose. I know everyone I ever had has.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: You wouldn't happen to know what size they are, would you?

dont go out and buy a torx socket. i used a 1/4 inch (i think) 12 point socket and it worked just fine.

Well after reading that link does anyone want to come fix mine?

If you're up to shipping, I'll fix it for $20 if you cover shipping costs. This is a really common problem with the GM columns, and I figured out why.

First off, here are the four bolts that come loose:

If you remove those bolts and the shaft, you can remove the lower basket and expose what the bolts screw into:

This is just a plain steel plate. It has four ears that fit into slots in the wall of the tube that forms the lower column housing.

This is a fairly concentrated load being applied to a very small surface area on the edge of the tube slots, so over time those slots wallow out and the plate gets loose, in turn causing the bolts to start backing out. Locktiting the bolts will help to delay the process, but won't completely cure it.

If you locktite the bolts, you can expect the repair to last the remainder of the useful life of the car, however.

JazzMan

Formula88,
I just did this on 2 cars and I think I have another to do in the near future. I found Oliver's article very useful http://www.fieros.de/en/main.html. I bought a socket, possibly an E7 or E8 for a 3/8 drive but it was too fat to reach the bolts. I ended up using a 1/4" drive socket (whatever fit snugly over the bolt head) and it worked OK. I'd rather have the appropriate tool but it would have to be for a 1/4" drive in order to reach into the space available and I couldn't locate one.

Also, I took the columns out of the car to do mine. I chucked them up in a vise and that left both hands free--made it easier. I don't know if it's easier than doing it in the car because I haven't done one that way. Good luck.

jp

Crap! I noticed that my link doesn't work. Ogre has a page on this in his cave that is helpful and he has a link to Oliver's Fiero Pages(look in his articles).

[This message has been edited by L67Formula (edited 12-13-2003).]

Thanks for the input, everyone! I'm a bit intimidated by this, but I've done a clutch, and exhaust manifolds, and I've done engine swaps before, so I'm a pretty handy mechanic. I'll give it a try tomorrow and see what happens.

JazzMan, I'd gladly pay you $20 plus shipping, but I don't want the car to be down that long. But if I run into a problem, I may take you up on your offer.

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Before you start, you will need to obtain some tools. Aside from the normal metric socket set, you need a torx bit set through T-30, a steering wheel puller ($10 AutoZone), lock plate compressor ($10 AutoZone), an assortment of screwdrivers, and most importantly, you need a pivot pin puller. Also, a torx socket to tighten the bolts, Sears and others stock these under the Lysle brand, I bought the whole set for $20. In a pinch, you can use a 6mm 6-sided socket to tighten the bolts, but it's risky for rounding the bolt splines.

I've done this repair both in the car and out, and I find that working in the car is much easier and convenient. Lay paper or something on the floorboard to protect the carpet from greasy parts.

I started a procedure page for this but have yet to complete it. Here are some pics:

http://web2.airmail.net/jsavage1/repairprocedures/tiltcolumn/

To do this repair correctly requires pulling the pivot pins and the upper basket to gain access to all four bolts. Leaving one bolt loose is a recipe for disaster because that bolt will fall out and jam the steering wheel while you're driving. P

Pay attention to how the ignition rack engages the slider pushrod as you remove it. Make sure that the high-beam pushrod is in the socket on the high-beam switch upon reassembly. Take notes and pics while disassembling.

Hollar at me if you need more pics, I'll see what I can do.

JazzMan

Plusses for everyone! Thanks so much. I think with the info posted and the pics, I can do this. Just gonna have to plan on it taking as long as it takes rather than try to get it done in one afternoon. I'm off to get tools this afternoon and we'll see what happens.

I can't thank you guys enough for your help!! Wish I could give you more than 1 +!

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I have done the project as well. Your wheel will have no slop at all when you are done. PM if you need any help.

BTW, It took me about four hours with no prior experience. I went slow so that I could stay organized. It would probably take less than half the time now. The part that I had trouble with is a small leaf spring looking thing that fell out. It took me an hour to figure out that it went inside where the key lock mechanism goes. When you take it out make sure you see how it is supposed to go back in.

1987 Fiero SE, Tech IV, Automatic, 1st time Fiero owner on DEC 6, 2002.
Back on America's Highways SEP 5, 2003

[This message has been edited by RACE (edited 12-13-2003).]

I have a good drawing of the column internals if you need it. It's sort of like brain surgery and that little leaf spring does have a tendency to fly out and I almost left it out because it's hard to figure out how to get it back it.

Please! Any pics I can get will be greatly appreciated!!
PM me if you need my email address rather than posting them.

There's a tension leaf spring as part of the key presence switch. That spring is supposed to separate from the plastic body of the switch when you remove it from the column, and the pics I posted show how it goes back together. There is also a tensioning leaf spring under the ignition switch sector rack, here's a pic:

Normally this doesn't get removed, though if it falls out without you seeing where it went it may not be obvious where it goes.

JazzMan

Well, this is how far I've gotten today..

Since I don't have much more sunlight, and this looks like a safe place to stop without getting confusing, I'm calling it quits for the day. So far it hasn't been too bad. That little spring clip at the lock plate tested my patience for a bit, but it finally succumbed.

Hopefully I'll be able to work on it some maybe on Christmas. If not, I have to wait until next weekend to get some more time off during daylight hours. Man, I sure hate these short winter months. But I don't think this is a repair I want to do by flashlight.

Jazz, the thing about the plate is interesting... I've never had time to tear one that far down. It explains allot.

All, Jazz's pictures also show why it is important that you NEVER allow the wheel to slam when you are getting out of the car. Letting the wheel slam to the top will just make the problem with that plate worse faster. Even if you locktite the bolts, slamming the wheel could still get that plate loose again and at that point you may have to replace the column to get a reliable repair.

Bolt socket... Ideally you want the right socket for the job. Finding the right socket for that bolt can be a pain if you find it at all. It also sucks to buy a special socket or worse a set of them for just one use. At least most people hope they only have to do this bloody job once...

I've done allot of column work but haven't had to do many tilt units. I think I've only done 5 maybe 6 of those. When I did mine I used whatever common socket would get a good grip. The bolts don't need a huge amount of torque on them. As long as you pick a snug fitting socket and are a bit careful, I don't think you'd round the heads. I think I used a small 6 point socket last time.

The pivot puller is the way to go. If you can't find the puller in the shops... You can make the puller with a stainless steel or grade 8 screw and matching nut. For a puller body use a small iron pipe cap with a hole drilled thru it. The pin thread isn't metric but I don't remember the SAE size for it.

If the pins aren't very tight, you might get away with a common steel screw but those can break if the pins are tight. SS and Grade 8 are much stronger. You also want an SS or grade 8 nut. You can find SS screws nuts and the pipe cap at any home/hardware store.

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Be alert. The world needs more lerts...

The Ogre's Fiero Cave (It's also at the top of every forum page...)

I have seen that before
This will be my christmas job too. Or hopefully sooner.

You can remove the column from the car and work on it in a nice warm house though

1 bolt to disconnect from the shaft, 4 under the dash and 2(?) connectors....especially the first time I was happy to have it on a table so I could take the time and a good look at it...
good luck, you are not alone

FYI, I picked up a cheap set of star sockets at Auto Zone for about $5-10. They look about right, so I'm hoping they're the right type of socket. If not, I'll wing it.

I don't have a pivot pin puller. Is that a common tool or would only a place like the dealer have it? AutoZone has free tool rental if it's a common enough tool. I got my lock plate compressor and steering wheel puller from there on rental for $15 each. I get the money back when I return them.

my autozone didnt have any pivot pin pullers. so what i did was i went to the local Pontiac dealer and told the guys in the service dept. what i was doing, and they were nice enough to let me borrow theirs.

The last time I was in O'Reilly's they stocked a pin puller, it was $9.99 IIRC. I did a quick google on "GM pivot pin puller" and the first link that came up was:

http://www.etoolcart.com/browseproducts/Steering-Pivot-Pin-Puller-LIS19940.HTML

Lisle is a good brand, the torx driver socket set I bought to tighten my bolts was $19.99 at Sears.

JazzMan

I found Lisle dealer nearby, and since it's only a $10 tool, I'll go pick one up just to make sure the job is done right.

Good Luck man..I did mine yesterday and its not too bad except during reassemble get a friend to put the snap ring back in while you hold tension on the horn button and lock ring. That was a B**ch to get back in. also watch that you dont pinch any wires on for the upper torx bolts. Took me about an hour to figure out where my cruise control was shorted.

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Ezra
88 Fiero 2M4 90000 Miles

Woo Hoo! I found a pivot pin puller! Those are not readily carried. I just lucked out at a "mom & pop" auto parts store.

So CLOSE!! So VERY VERY CLOSE!! Ok, I've got all the way down to the pivot pins, and I got them out no trouble at all. The pivot pin puller is worth it's weight in gold!! Only cost about $5 and it pops the pins right out.

Anyway, after pulling the pivot pins out, I'm supposed to pull this part out:

but I have no idea where it is. I take it that's the last part before I can slide that section of the column off? I can see the 2 bottom torx bolts, so I know I'm close. Any help?

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That is the rack gear for the ignition linkage. I think you have to take out the ignition lock to remove that. Then it just slides out. If you are careful, you may be able to unhook the loop end from the other part of the linkage without removing it. I can't remember right now.

Ok, I'll check. The ignition lock cylinder is already out.
So far this hasn't been too confusing of a disassembly. Luckily it's lots of unique looking parts so it's easier to figure out where they go back. Of course, I haven't had ball bearings falling out when I pull the bottom section of the column yet, either.

"+"'s for everyone's help! I can't tell you how much it's appreciated!

In my picture above that showed the rack tension spring as a dotted yellow line, the rack is the part the spring pushes against. It has gear teeth on it that are engaged by the gear that's turned by the ignition key. When you remove it, pay attention to how the loop end of it engages between two bumps on the slider down below. Commonly people don't get this engaged correctly, and when it's incorrect the column won't work.

JazzMan

Allrighty! I got the column apart and got to the bolts. Let me tell you, they were all loose enough to take out by hand, so I was quite pleased to verify that was the problem. I picked up the star sockets for the bolts, but of course I got 3/8" drive sockets and they were too thick to fit in the confines of the column. I did find that my nut driver handle, with no bit in it fit very snugly over the bolt heads, so I used it to tighen them down as tight as I could get. I also used high strength red thread locker, so they should be well tightened.

I am currently in the reassembly phase and I'm loosing daylight, so I'll have to finish up tomorrow. I did do one bonehead thing that I'm hoping someone can help with. When I was putting the pivot pins back in, I couldn't get to them to tap them in, so I screwed the pivot pin puller into the pin and tapped on it. Worked fine on one of them, then of course ... *SNAP* ... I broke it off in the pin on the 2nd one. Does anyone have a spare pivot pin they can send me? Luckily this happened while going back together, so I can still tap that pin all the way in, but if it ever needs to come back out, I'll have to drill out the screw. It's not quite flush now, so I can get a grip on it with some pliers to pull it back out if someone can send me an undamaged one.

Either way, I want to thank everyone. I'm studying the pics I've got right now so I can put everything back together right. With some luck, I'll have it back together tomorrow morning.

Oh, and none of the ball bearings came out on mine. Guess I was lucky. They all stayed put in the bearing race.

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