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4T40E - 4T60E - 4t65E What's the difference? by CAB
Started on: 12-11-2003 06:24 PM
Replies: 12
Last post by: eatoninside on 12-13-2003 02:19 PM
CAB
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Report this Post12-11-2003 06:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for CABClick Here to Email CABSend a Private Message to CABDirect Link to This Post
I am installing a 3100 SFI and would like to know the difference in the 4T40E, 4T60E and 4t65E transmissions? With the 3100 I am not going to abuse any of the transmissions. Are the end shafts different for the CVS couplers etc. Just trying to figure which one to go with.
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Report this Post12-11-2003 09:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroDirect Link to This Post
I am pretty sure all 98 and older 3100 PCMs were set up to work with the 4T60-E. In 99, I believe GM discontinued the 60-E and all you could get for one of these motors was the 4T65-E (which is slightly stronger). The 4T40-E is a weaker and smaller version of the 4T60-E meant to work with 4 cylinder engines. You could hook a 3100 to it, and it would probably not blow up, but there might be issues with PCM compatibility. I believe the 4T60-E would be your best bet. They are by far the most common to find amoung the 3 you speak of. Best bet is to get the same year transmission that you have the PCM for. In fact, try to get a transmission from the same year, make, model car that you have the PCM from so you don't have to have it reprogrammed for different gear ratios, etc.

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naskie18
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Report this Post12-11-2003 09:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for naskie18Click Here to visit naskie18's HomePageClick Here to Email naskie18Send a Private Message to naskie18Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by CAB:

I am installing a 3100 SFI and would like to know the difference in the 4T40E, 4T60E and 4t65E transmissions? With the 3100 I am not going to abuse any of the transmissions. Are the end shafts different for the CVS couplers etc. Just trying to figure which one to go with.

The biggest difference is the amount of torque they're set up to handle. I just took a tranny class and we tore apart a 4T65E, I've got a neat diagram in the car showing the different power bands they're set up for, I'll go grab it and scan a couple pages for ya

Alright, here's the diagram I was talking about, not sure how much it'll help, if at all. Basically shows what the different names/designations are.


There's a couple pages in here about the PCM inputs into the trannies, you want me to scan those for you? They're pretty much full pages, so they'd probably be fairly large files, but I'll scan 'em for you if you think they'd be helpful. 3-4 pages. Let me know.
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[This message has been edited by naskie18 (edited 12-11-2003).]

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eatoninside
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Report this Post12-11-2003 10:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for eatoninsideSend a Private Message to eatoninsideDirect Link to This Post
It all depends on what your 3.1L engine came out of. The 3.1L was used in both Grand Ams and Grand Prixs. In a late model Grand Am, the 4T40E is used, even with the 3400 V-6. In a Grand Prix, the 4T60E was used. It all depends on what you can find. I'd say the 4T40E would work just fine if you don't plan on nitrous or turbocharging. The 4T65E would be the way to go if you were planning on turboing or whatnot.
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Shadow_Wolf
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Report this Post12-12-2003 02:13 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Shadow_WolfSend a Private Message to Shadow_WolfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

I am pretty sure all 98 and older 3100 PCMs were set up to work with the 4T60-E. In 99, I believe GM discontinued the 60-E and all you could get for one of these motors was the 4T65-E (which is slightly stronger). The 4T40-E is a weaker and smaller version of the 4T60-E meant to work with 4 cylinder engines. You could hook a 3100 to it, and it would probably not blow up, but there might be issues with PCM compatibility. I believe the 4T60-E would be your best bet. They are by far the most common to find amoung the 3 you speak of. Best bet is to get the same year transmission that you have the PCM for. In fact, try to get a transmission from the same year, make, model car that you have the PCM from so you don't have to have it reprogrammed for different gear ratios, etc.

Mmmm actually that's not quite right. The 4T60 is used in the Impala, Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, etc etc etc. The 4T65 is a beefier version used on the supercharged applications. The 4T60 probably won't be out of production anytime in the near future.

However you are right about the 4T40 being designed to work with current 4cyls. It's still used in the Cavalier, and has a 'friendlier' ratio for the smaller engines.

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HIOSILVER!
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Report this Post12-12-2003 09:25 AM Click Here to See the Profile for HIOSILVER!Click Here to Email HIOSILVER!Send a Private Message to HIOSILVER!Direct Link to This Post

I would love that info if you could send it to me? Actually any and all info on the 4t65ehd would be a blessing.
Have a 4t65E HD that is going in my car. Can you send it to me at rich-gagne@idexx.com
???
Thanks
Rich
 
quote
Originally posted by naskie18:

The biggest difference is the amount of torque they're set up to handle. I just took a tranny class and we tore apart a 4T65E, I've got a neat diagram in the car showing the different power bands they're set up for, I'll go grab it and scan a couple pages for ya

Alright, here's the diagram I was talking about, not sure how much it'll help, if at all. Basically shows what the different names/designations are.
There's a couple pages in here about the PCM inputs into the trannies, you want me to scan those for you? They're pretty much full pages, so they'd probably be fairly large files, but I'll scan 'em for you if you think they'd be helpful. 3-4 pages. Let me know.

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naskie18
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Report this Post12-12-2003 09:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for naskie18Click Here to visit naskie18's HomePageClick Here to Email naskie18Send a Private Message to naskie18Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by HIOSILVER!:


I would love that info if you could send it to me? Actually any and all info on the 4t65ehd would be a blessing.
Have a 4t65E HD that is going in my car. Can you send it to me at rich-gagne@idexx.com
???
Thanks
Rich

You have a PM

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post12-12-2003 12:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Shadow_Wolf:

Mmmm actually that's not quite right. The 4T60 is used in the Impala, Grand Prix, Monte Carlo, etc etc etc. The 4T65 is a beefier version used on the supercharged applications. The 4T60 probably won't be out of production anytime in the near future.

However you are right about the 4T40 being designed to work with current 4cyls. It's still used in the Cavalier, and has a 'friendlier' ratio for the smaller engines.

According to GM powertrain online, the 4T60-E has been discontinued. They are now using the 4T65-E as a replacement. I believe this was the case since 1999 but I know for a FACT that they are NOT using the 4T60-E anymore. http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/hydra/apps/index.htm (it is the RWD 4L60-E that is still in production, not the FWD 4T60-E)

Furthermore, the non-HD 4T65-E is NOT that much stronger than the 4T60-E. It is the 4T65-E HD version that has the upgraded diff and parts. Most of the non-HD 65's internals are identical to the 60-E, although some updates and improvements are different.

As far as the 4T40's go, GM is currently using the 4T40-E for 1.5L to 3.1L engines. The new 4T45-E is being used for 3.0L to 3.4L engines. Check out the link to GM powertrain above, it tells you relative torque capacity, what vehicles they are used in, and what engines they are used with.

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Shadow_Wolf
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Report this Post12-13-2003 12:58 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Shadow_WolfSend a Private Message to Shadow_WolfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

According to GM powertrain online, the 4T60-E has been discontinued. They are now using the 4T65-E as a replacement. I believe this was the case since 1999 but I know for a FACT that they are NOT using the 4T60-E anymore. http://www.gm.com/automotive/gmpowertrain/transmissions/hydra/apps/index.htm (it is the RWD 4L60-E that is still in production, not the FWD 4T60-E)

Furthermore, the non-HD 4T65-E is NOT that much stronger than the 4T60-E. It is the 4T65-E HD version that has the upgraded diff and parts. Most of the non-HD 65's internals are identical to the 60-E, although some updates and improvements are different.

As far as the 4T40's go, GM is currently using the 4T40-E for 1.5L to 3.1L engines. The new 4T45-E is being used for 3.0L to 3.4L engines. Check out the link to GM powertrain above, it tells you relative torque capacity, what vehicles they are used in, and what engines they are used with.

Now what's interesting about that, is my little sales consultant handbook lists the 4T60 as the transmission in non-supercharged 3800 applications

-EDIT- I just re-checked, seems for 2003 they were still using 4T60 stock, for 2004 they went to the 4T65. Apologies!

[This message has been edited by Shadow_Wolf (edited 12-13-2003).]

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post12-13-2003 01:19 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Shadow_Wolf:

Now what's interesting about that, is my little sales consultant handbook lists the 4T60 as the transmission in non-supercharged 3800 applications

-EDIT- I just re-checked, seems for 2003 they were still using 4T60 stock, for 2004 they went to the 4T65. Apologies!

That's funny, I just cross-checked my information with the Hollender Interchange book and I can't find one GM vehicle that used the 4T60-E AFTER 1999. The only electronic FWD transmissions I saw for year 2000-to-presenst vehicles were the 4T40-E, 4T45-E, 4T65-E, 4T65-E HD, 4T80-E. What sales consultant hand book do you have? For what year, make, and model?

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Shadow_Wolf
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Report this Post12-13-2003 12:58 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Shadow_WolfSend a Private Message to Shadow_WolfDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

That's funny, I just cross-checked my information with the Hollender Interchange book and I can't find one GM vehicle that used the 4T60-E AFTER 1999. The only electronic FWD transmissions I saw for year 2000-to-presenst vehicles were the 4T40-E, 4T45-E, 4T65-E, 4T65-E HD, 4T80-E. What sales consultant hand book do you have? For what year, make, and model?

I'm looking at my 2003 handbook for the Chev line, Canadian version. It does list the 4T60 in the drivetrain section. A misprint perhaps?

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Darth Fiero
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Report this Post12-13-2003 01:24 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Darth FieroClick Here to visit Darth Fiero's HomePageClick Here to Email Darth FieroSend a Private Message to Darth FieroDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Shadow_Wolf:

I'm looking at my 2003 handbook for the Chev line, Canadian version. It does list the 4T60 in the drivetrain section. A misprint perhaps?

Could be, it has been known to happen. Although my source of information has been known to make a few mistakes every now and then as well. I will ask my tranny guy, he will know for sure.

Anyway, getting back on-topic, if you plan on keeping the engine basically stock, I don't see why you couldn't use the 4T40-E trans. Just keep in mind that you need to use the correct PCM for the tranny. So if you have a PCM that is programmed to work with a 4T60-E, then I suggest that is what you use. But again, keep in mind that all of these trannys are available with all different kinds of gear and chain ratios so make sure you get the one from the same vehicle that matches your PCM programming or it will have fits and might throw codes causing the trans to not shift.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-13-2003).]

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eatoninside
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Report this Post12-13-2003 02:19 PM Click Here to See the Profile for eatoninsideSend a Private Message to eatoninsideDirect Link to This Post
I just went and looked up in the Pontiac service manuals under section 7 (transmissions). In 1999, they list both the 4T60E and the 4T65E. In 2000, only the 4T65E is listed, so they did discontinue the 4T60E. If the said 3.1L came out of a Malibu, then it would have used the 4T40E. If it came out of a 97-99 W-Body, it will be a 4T60E, 2000+ will be the 4T65E. I would use whatever transmission your 3.1L was originally mated to.
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