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Piston costs and suggestions... by sublime922
Started on: 12-01-2003 09:57 PM
Replies: 27
Last post by: Solo2 on 12-06-2003 09:37 AM
sublime922
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Report this Post12-01-2003 09:57 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
about how much should i pay for a replacement piston for 2.8? im going to rebuild and probly bore 20 or 30 over and need some new pistons, but prices are all over the place...ive seen them for 8 bucks or 70 bucks...seems like an average is about 20...anyone have any suggestions? or what not to get? do i need forged or hyperutechtic? kinda lost in the confusion of it
sorry i put this in general at first...
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Report this Post12-01-2003 10:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KentoClick Here to Email KentoSend a Private Message to KentoDirect Link to This Post
I got pistons, rings, all bearings, lifters, cam, timing chain, oil pump, freeze plugs and all the gaskets, basicly anything that makes the motor work. I got it thru my machine shop that was doing my machine work. It was another 450 for valve job, grinding and polishing crank, cleaning the snot out of everything, boring & decking the block, plus magnifluxing all the parts. It was a wierd feeling working on a motor and not finish everyday with greese and oil and gunk under your fonger nails

If I had known then what I know now, I would have just installed a 4.9l caddy motor at that time and sae myself 4 years of waiting

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[This message has been edited by Kento (edited 12-01-2003).]

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sublime922
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Report this Post12-01-2003 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
it took 4 years? and what exaclty is decking the block? im going to rebuilding my 2.8 and im trying to do it on a budget but still have a good motor....as crazy as it sounds...so far im lookin at about 100 bucks for a set of 6 pistons by sterling pistons off of summit.com. is that any good?
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Kento
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Report this Post12-01-2003 10:41 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KentoClick Here to Email KentoSend a Private Message to KentoDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sublime922:

it took 4 years? and what exaclty is decking the block? im going to rebuilding my 2.8 and im trying to do it on a budget but still have a good motor....as crazy as it sounds...so far im lookin at about 100 bucks for a set of 6 pistons by sterling pistons off of summit.com. is that any good?

Decking the block is making sure the block is flat and smooth, also ups compression a little. I opted for a total teardown and rebuild, I could have just done a hone and re-ring but decided not to. If you are going to get overbore pistons you will have to have the block bored and you need to strip it down and do everything I had done so you are looking a the same as what I did.

4 years is how long I have had the motor installed after the rebuild. If I had done the 4.9 swap then I would have been driving a hot rod for the last 4 years.

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sublime922
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Report this Post12-01-2003 10:53 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
ah i see..yea im thinking of going 30 over on the bore...and the 4 years thing...now i get it..ha i just read it to fast before and didnt catch onto it. but is that a good price and brand for the pistons? or should i look elsewhere?
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sublime922
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Report this Post12-01-2003 11:05 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
kento do you have an aol name or something maybe we could talk more now i have a few questions about the rebuild and it seems you could help
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Solo2
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Report this Post12-02-2003 04:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Solo2Send a Private Message to Solo2Direct Link to This Post
look up www.citymotorsupply.com for all your 3.1L part needs. Look under there domestic 100 motor list and then the 3.1L w/cast iron heads and you will find all your needs.
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Report this Post12-02-2003 06:31 AM Click Here to See the Profile for KentoClick Here to Email KentoSend a Private Message to KentoDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sublime922:

kento do you have an aol name or something maybe we could talk more now i have a few questions about the rebuild and it seems you could help

I don't do instant messagers, sorry. you can send me an email and we can go over more detail there or even over the phone.

 
quote
Originally posted by Solo2:

look up www.citymotorsupply.com for all your 3.1L part needs. Look under there domestic 100 motor list and then the 3.1L w/cast iron heads and you will find all your needs.

I agree with Solo2. Either stroke it to 3.1 or save the $$$ and do a swap.

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Report this Post12-02-2003 07:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Solo2Send a Private Message to Solo2Direct Link to This Post
www.citymotorsupply.com , look under the domestic 100 motor list and find the 3.1L w/cast iron heads and there you will see that the crank kit costs $80, piston set costs $66.73, hasting rings set $20.75, rod bearings $8.11, main bearings $22.03, cam bearings $7.69, full gasket set $64.19, oil pump $43.86, timing chain set $19.55, etc.
Hope this helps.
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sublime922
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Report this Post12-02-2003 10:53 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
i looked under the 100 domestic motors and all it gave me was the block prices for shorts and longs....anyone have a more direct link?

all i get it a pdf file with two pages of block costs...

[This message has been edited by sublime922 (edited 12-02-2003).]

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Report this Post12-02-2003 11:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
also, are the 2.8 pistons and the 3.1 pistons the same bore? not syaing i am going to use 2.8 pistons, i know they will not work, but my dad is concerned with putting different pistons in and wants to be exactly sure of what we need to go in there...are the connecting rods i have now going to work? they are in good condition but are they the same as the 3.1? also, being the motor is going to be bored out, should i order the pistons before had and the bore i want and give them to the shop so that they fit in there?

[This message has been edited by sublime922 (edited 12-02-2003).]

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Report this Post12-02-2003 12:14 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Solo2Send a Private Message to Solo2Direct Link to This Post
sublime922, send me a PM.
The engine and part list is an Adobe Acrobat file
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Report this Post12-02-2003 03:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
pm sent
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Report this Post12-02-2003 08:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
Just a bit of info regarding the 2.8/3.1 engines. The block, heads, and connecting rods are the same between the two engines. The crank has 8mm more stroke, and the pin in the piston was moved up 4mm closer to the top to account for the extra stroke. The pre-88 Fiero cranks are externally balanced, but the '88 Fiero cranks and all of the 3.1 cranks are internally balanced. To use the 3.1 crank in a pre-88 motor requires buying or modifying the flywheel to make it balanced, or buying a balanced flex plate for the auto cars.

That being said, here's what I discovered on my '88 rebuild. My crank was knocking, so the rod journals were damaged beyond repair. This is normal for any rod knock. I went to buy a 2.8 crank and found that due to the fact that they are typically not repairable the core charge was $125 plus the cost of the crank kit. So, I looked at the 3.1 crank and the core charge was $80 with the same price for the crank kit. I was getting new pistons anyway due to an oversize bore because of wear, so I just converted my 2.8 into a 3.1 and saved $45 in the process.

I run a 2030 cam, regular cast pistons (Silvolite 1486), the 981 casting crank from the minivan (it's the strongest), and I'm fairly happy with the performance of it.

JazzMan

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Report this Post12-02-2003 09:17 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
any you used your original connecting rods? were any mods done to the heads? and what size bore did you do? if u dont mind me asking, about how much did you pay to have it done? maybe itemize and list the sperate costs too if possbile? i just wanna make sure i go with all the right parts and everything fits good. is the minivan crank the same as the 90 lumina 3.1 crank? thats the one ive been asking for the when i call for prices. thanks alot

[This message has been edited by sublime922 (edited 12-02-2003).]

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Report this Post12-02-2003 11:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
Here's a sampling of my rebuilt last year. All prices in 2002 U.S $.

Labor:

$40.00 Vat block and heads
84.00 Bore +.030 ($14 x 6)
25.00 Resize rods ($12.50 x 2)
22.50 Install and gap rings ($3.75 x 6)
26.00 Install cam bearings
14.00 Magnaflux heads and block
50.00 Mill heads (0.005 cleanup pass)
65.00 Valve job

Parts:
$ 80.00 Crank kit w/ bearings (981 casting)
90.00 Crank core (not recoverable)
66.72 Pistons (Sylvolite 1486 +.030)
50.70 Piston rings (Hastings)
32.00 Oil pump (Mellings)
6.70 Oil pump pickup (Mellings)
5.35 Freeze plugs (brass)
21.35 Timing chain set (Cloyes)
177.85 Cam and lifter set, Crane 2030
13.35 Cam bearings
??.?? Intake valves x 6
39.36 Rocker arms w/ balls and nuts
108.20 Top end gasket set, FelPro
75.00 Bottom end gasket set, FelPro
15.99 Water pump, rebuilt
5.00 Water pump core

This list doesn't include all of other stuff I fixed while I was at it, like tranny seals, painting, cleaning, new fuel system O-rings, injector cleaning and testing, oil, filters, etc. I've actually got a 3-page list of stuff. I had the flywheel resurfaced, put new axle hub seals in, serviced the radiator, new tires, new syncromesh, steam-cleaned the interior, new wires, plugs, rebuilt the starter, distributor, and alternator completely.

Hope this helps someone.

JazzMan

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Report this Post12-03-2003 12:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
yes that does help alot...could you tell me where you got the pistons from? i cant seem to find any for under 100 bucks and from what ive heard, they are good ones to go with and they are cheaper than the federal mogul ones i was gonna get
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Report this Post12-03-2003 07:10 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Solo2Send a Private Message to Solo2Direct Link to This Post
The piston parts came from City Motor Supply, Inc. which you already have the file on. Jazzman purchased them there. Having them shipped to you will cost you a little more.
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Report this Post12-03-2003 09:33 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Francis TClick Here to visit Francis T's HomePageClick Here to Email Francis TSend a Private Message to Francis TDirect Link to This Post
I just did a rebuild of my 2.8 and got higher comp pistons/ring kit from the Fiero store at a fair price. If you don't mind running 93oct you may as well do the same, you'll realy feel the HP gain. The 2.8 has very poor headers, with 90 deg turns and the like. You may want to change them too.
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Report this Post12-03-2003 04:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
well it looks like i will do the 3.1, just need to find all the parts at the cheapest possible prices...and then do it...thanks everyone
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Report this Post12-03-2003 11:29 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
solo i still cant get that adobe file to work right....only getting engine block prices...i pmmed you my email as well
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Report this Post12-04-2003 07:06 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Solo2Send a Private Message to Solo2Direct Link to This Post
Use this site listed below as your guide, also use what JAZZMAN has listed.
City motors only list prices not parts. Use this and what Jazzmzn has listed and you will not go wrong.
Good luck.
Solo2
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/1642/engine.html
8 (code 9) 60 degree V-6 to 3.2 (code HO-9) 60 degree V-6 Conversion


Warning: All information on this site(s) is to be use strictly for reference only. Please feel free to comment. If you have a question please do not hesitate to E-Mail me.

Ok, here are some of the pictures of the process. I have completed the entire project as of 12/98 but I have some more tweaking I need to do and more pics to develop.
It is hard to believe the engine was this dirty. From the top it looks clean.

You can never clean a newly machined block enough. I scrubbed this block 8-times and hosed it down with the pressure washer every time. That may be extreme. I am sure at least 3-4 good washes with the hose would work fine.

"The dished pistons will lower your compression...." I cannot say this is true. Look at the pic of the piston to deck clearance!
Here is a pic of the short block minus the cam and lifters.
Scrubbed and painted engine chassis. This was a dirty process but it looks great now and the basecoat/clearcoat combination helps keep the assembly from rusting.
Crane CompuCam being installed. This is the 254122 CompuCam. The specs are listed on the Crane Website.
To take the mystery out of the cam, I degreed it to verify Crane's grind. If you are going to degree a cam, check out the Crane Website.

I decided to cc the heads and the block. I am still trying to determine if the measurment was correct.
cc Heads cc Block
The long block is assembeled. Other than trimming the purple colored water pump gaskets, the engine is looking pretty good. The water pump gasket is a blue Fel-Pro with a red colored cement hence the purple hue. Note the stamped steel rockers. These are Speed Pro 1.5 rockers. I went with the steel stamped for longevity reasons. They have no bearings to wear and they are very durable. The roller tipped rocker did not impress me because the benifit of rollers do not out weigh the risks for my rebuild.

Here are some pics of the engine on the stand. Note the manifolds are not installed but you can just see the new stainless polished manifold bolts. I would highly recommend replacing the stock manifold bolts with stainless. I paid less the $8.00us for the stainless hardware at the local industrial hardware shop.
Engine 1
Engine2
The engine is complete (is anything automotive hobby ever complete?). Other than some valve adjustment, it runs great. It has a little more valve train noise than what I am use to but I atribute this to the 107lb on the valve seat and the high-lift cam. Here are some pics of the completed engine.
Engine Complete 3
Engine Complete 4
Engine Complete 5
As you can see from the above photos, the manifolds have been Jet-Hot coated. Below are the manifolds before I installed them on the engine. I was very happy with the way the manifolds looked initially but after about and hour of running, the shine has faded.

I drilled out the manifold restrictions with a large drill bit to gain some HP. Also, you can see the Jet-Hot coating is applied to the inside as well as the outside.


You want Sound?
Listen to this engine purr; kinda gives you chills. Not approved for the weak hearted.
The sound of 220 HP?

I have put together a Excel file of all the part numbers, vendors, and prices. Some of the prices may not be what the average person will pay. Somethings I paid less, while other thing I paid a little more. I will not post this Excel file because most people don't care, however, I will list some of the major players.
Some Interesting Parts
3.1 Crank Kit (981 Casting) AutoZone 10610
Crane CompuCam & Lifters Summit Racing 254122
3.1 Hyper/Graphite Pistons Northern Auto H562CP 0.050mm
Adjustable Fuel Pressure Regulator Summit Racing 74750
GM Performance Harmonic Balancer CN Pontiac 14085401
Crane Cams Valve springs Summit Racing 99849
Stainless Steel 1-Piece Valve SI Industries ?
ARP Rod Bolts Summit Racing 133-6002
Brass Frost Plug Set NAPA 219-9524
3.1 Crank Woodruff Key CN Pontiac 14089209
This is just a few of the parts I have found to be either hard-to-find or special to the project. Of course, there were many many more parts involved and I would be happy to help with part numbers.
Engines remanufactured by our remanufacturing line meet or
exceed O.E.M. specifications.
- New Manley valves
- New Elgin valve springs and keepers
- New Badger pistons
- New Hastings molly rings
- New Dynagear timing gears and Durabond cam bearings
- New Dynagear timing gears and chain
- New Elgin lifters, push rods, rockers, balls and nuts
- New Dynagear oil pump
- New FelPro gaskets
- Cylinder heads are pressure checked
- Diamond honed valve guides
- Three angle cut valve seats
- All head surfaces are broached
- Blocks are bored with deck plates, cylinder walls are diamond honed
- Crankshafts are ground and polished for .002 clearance
- Camshafts are ground to O.E.M. specifications, hardened and polished
- Connecting rods are sized to .002 clearance

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sublime922
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Report this Post12-04-2003 10:05 AM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
well i went to buy a crankshaft today....do i want the one with or without notched in it? what are the notches for and does it make a big difference
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Report this Post12-04-2003 04:39 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
ttt
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Report this Post12-04-2003 06:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for KswissSend a Private Message to KswissDirect Link to This Post
I really want to hear more about this, I have a 2.8 that I am planning on converting to a 3.2(bored/stroked) and possible turbo kit. So I am guessing I should probably do forged pistons?
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Report this Post12-04-2003 11:16 PM Click Here to See the Profile for JazzManClick Here to Email JazzManSend a Private Message to JazzManDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by sublime922:

well i went to buy a crankshaft today....do i want the one with or without notched in it? what are the notches for and does it make a big difference


The notches are for the crank sensor on the DIS system used by the 3.1. They're irrelevant, ignore them. I don't think anyone made a 3.1 crank that wasn't for a DIS car, so I'm not sure how one could get a crank without the notches.

JazzMan

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sublime922
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Report this Post12-04-2003 11:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for sublime922Click Here to Email sublime922Send a Private Message to sublime922Direct Link to This Post
i tried to buy one and was presented with the option of nothces or no notches... i didnt know if it was for the balancing or something....and are silvolite pistons that much bettet than sterling pistons?(federal mogol name)? if i want the silvolites i either have to get the silvolite 1486 from dallas for 66 plus shipping...dont know how much it is...or from summit for 120 shipped...
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Report this Post12-06-2003 09:37 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Solo2Send a Private Message to Solo2Direct Link to This Post
Here is another option:
Just look up 3.1L parts for the camaro/firebird:
3.1L Parts
Pistion: Federal Mogul H562CP
Rings: Hastings Chrome 2M4456
Crank: 981 Casting
Main Bearing: Clevite MS-1807P
Rod Bearings: CB1238P
Timining Gear Set: Cloyes True Rollers 9-3137
Piston. bearings, and rings will have an oversize designation on the part numbers,
depending on your applications.
Good Luck
Solo2
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