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Warning to 88 owners dealing with the The Fiero Store by watts
Started on: 11-19-2003 07:46 PM
Replies: 27
Last post by: Dave Mathis on 02-19-2004 05:02 PM
watts
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Report this Post11-19-2003 07:46 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wattsClick Here to Email wattsSend a Private Message to wattsDirect Link to This Post
They have recently started selling "paddle nut assemblies" for the front end of the '88s. This is the plate with 2 nuts welded to it, that slips under the frame, and then has 2 bolts that go down through the upper control arm shaft into the plate.

Anyhow - what you get is a bag with the paddle nut, and two bolts. That's it. No instructions, warnings, nothing else.

The factory setup was the same paddle, but it used crimped nuts (so you had to use force to jam the bolt through them). These ones use 'normal' nuts, so there's no mechanical locking provisions.

If you've bought these already, or intend to - make SURE that you now use lock washers (not included) under the heads of the bolts.

One of the other forum members here installed them on his car (during the course of an alignment), and within a month had 3 of the 4 bolts start to loosen off! Since it wasn't the shops fault, he's now got to shell out for another alignement (not to mention the panic of having the front end slipping all over the place).

I'm not trying to slam TFS or anything here, but unless they change the design, be warned to pick yourself up 4 lock washers before you start.

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Raydar
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Report this Post11-19-2003 07:50 PM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
Excellent information.
I wonder if this changes the torque requirements.

I also wonder if blue Loctite is an acceptible substitute for the lockwashers.

I don't know. Just food for thought.

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Raydar
88 3.4 coupe.

Coming soon...
88 Formula, presently under the knife.

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James Bond 007
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Report this Post11-19-2003 07:52 PM Click Here to See the Profile for James Bond 007Send a Private Message to James Bond 007Direct Link to This Post
I higly recomend notifying Fiero Store immediately.
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jelly2m8
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Report this Post11-19-2003 08:26 PM Click Here to See the Profile for jelly2m8Click Here to Email jelly2m8Send a Private Message to jelly2m8Direct Link to This Post
I'll agree that TFS should be supplying lock washers with this, but common sense tells you if the originals had lock nuts, you should put lock washers in there, or replace the lock nuts.

[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 11-19-2003).]

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Tom Slick
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Report this Post11-19-2003 09:08 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Tom SlickClick Here to Email Tom SlickSend a Private Message to Tom SlickDirect Link to This Post
Thanks for the info. I purchase them to rebuild my front suspension in the next few weeks. I sure would of hated it if they came off while I was driving.

toms...

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Report this Post11-19-2003 10:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for nick2x88Send a Private Message to nick2x88Direct Link to This Post
If the whole point of replacing the paddlenut assembly is to get fresh crimped nuts so that the whole thing doesn't rattle apart, didn't fierostore flat out miss the boat by designing what is essentially, a brand new worn out paddlenut assembly?

I feel like sometimes they release products without any real thought as to their intended use or application is...or simply inferior.

*sigh*


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88 4cyl 5spd Western Edition
88 Formula 5spd SOLD :( but to be replaced someday.

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watts
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Report this Post11-19-2003 11:03 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wattsClick Here to Email wattsSend a Private Message to wattsDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by nick2x88:
If the whole point of replacing the paddlenut assembly is to get fresh crimped nuts so that the whole thing doesn't rattle apart, didn't fierostore flat out miss the boat by designing what is essentially, a brand new worn out paddlenut assembly?

One of the big problems other than the nut getting chewed out, is that the nut is only pressed into the plate (on the stock ones). After a few cycles of loosen/tighten, the nut spins in the what-was-a-hex hole making it REALLY tough on the alignment guy (as you have to try to get a wrench under it with one hand, while holding your impact with the other hand, while holding the control arm with your other hand {hey - wait a minute?!}).

 
quote
Originally posted by jelly2m8:
but common sense tells you if the originals had lock nuts, you should put lock washers in there, or replace the lock nuts.

Shouldn't common sense then apply to TFS, and have them supply a simple $0.02 lock washer? (oh, sorry $0.08 since there's 4 of them ) The original GM nut plates are no longer available so that's not an option. It's tough to say who the onus should lie on - the manufacturer of the plate, TFS as a supplier, buddy with the 88 as the purchaser, me as the guy who said to buy it to make life easier on the alignment shop, or the guy at the alignment shop! Guess we *all* missed the boat on slapping in 4 lock washers.

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Nashco
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Report this Post11-20-2003 12:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NashcoClick Here to visit Nashco's HomePageClick Here to Email NashcoSend a Private Message to NashcoDirect Link to This Post
Lock washers are essentially useless for actually keeping the nut in place. At LEAST get some nyloc nuts (nylon insert on the nut keeps the nut from rotating freely), but preferably get some real lock nuts (usually slightly crushed, similar to stock nuts).

Bryce
88 GT

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Report this Post11-20-2003 01:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for TONY_CSend a Private Message to TONY_CDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Nashco:

Lock washers are essentially useless for actually keeping the nut in place. At LEAST get some nyloc nuts (nylon insert on the nut keeps the nut from rotating freely), but preferably get some real lock nuts (usually slightly crushed, similar to stock nuts).

Bryce
88 GT

You read my mind. Go out and buy the correct nuts. I wouldn't use lock washers.

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watts
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Report this Post11-20-2003 01:32 AM Click Here to See the Profile for wattsClick Here to Email wattsSend a Private Message to wattsDirect Link to This Post
You can't just use lock nuts (nylon insert, etc). These nuts are welded to a plate. The lock washers are to prevent the bolt from backing out.

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Report this Post11-20-2003 02:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for shark93726Click Here to visit shark93726's HomePageClick Here to Email shark93726Send a Private Message to shark93726Direct Link to This Post
Blue Loctite would be a better solution than lockwashers.

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Gerald Storvik

http://www.8shark.com

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Report this Post11-20-2003 02:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for jelly2m8Click Here to Email jelly2m8Send a Private Message to jelly2m8Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by watts:

Shouldn't common sense then apply to TFS, and have them supply a simple $0.02 lock washer? (oh, sorry $0.08 since there's 4 of them )


Yes, your right, it works both ways.

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hugh
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Report this Post11-20-2003 06:55 AM Click Here to See the Profile for hughClick Here to Email hughSend a Private Message to hughDirect Link to This Post
Blue loctite like Raydar said would be the best way to go.Lock washers can break if they are not of the best quality.Blue loctite is removeable except for 1/4 inch bolts or smaller.With loctite you only need to have clean parts,you don't need anything else like primer.Caution!Don't use ether as a cleaner,even when it evaporates it acts as a catalyst and causes the loctite to harden almost immediately.Just a side note;it is the air in the bottle that keeps the loctite from curing,it cures with the absence of air.

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#1112
Question my ability,question my intelligence,never question my integrity!

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Report this Post11-20-2003 06:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GarethsterSend a Private Message to GarethsterDirect Link to This Post
Okay guys I'm getting my alignment redone tomorrow, so what is the correct solution for the new Fiero Store paddle nut assemblies?

Blue Loctite, or washers?

[This message has been edited by Garethster (edited 11-20-2003).]

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Fierokid87
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Report this Post11-20-2003 06:42 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Fierokid87Click Here to Email Fierokid87Send a Private Message to Fierokid87Direct Link to This Post
thanks for the warning. Ill keep that in mind if i ever need those.

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Report this Post11-20-2003 08:31 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Bradbitz11Click Here to Email Bradbitz11Send a Private Message to Bradbitz11Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Garethster:

Okay guys I'm getting my alignment redone tomorrow, so what is the correct solution for the new Fiero Store paddle nut assemblies?

Blue Loctite, or washers?

[This message has been edited by Garethster (edited 11-20-2003).]

Both.

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86 GT -- All Options except Performance Sound

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Report this Post11-20-2003 09:20 PM Click Here to See the Profile for NashcoClick Here to visit Nashco's HomePageClick Here to Email NashcoSend a Private Message to NashcoDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by watts:

You can't just use lock nuts (nylon insert, etc). These nuts are welded to a plate. The lock washers are to prevent the bolt from backing out.

I understand, I didn't put much thought into it, and for some reason I was thinking about the nuts that go hold the upper control arm in place, rather than the upper control arm support member.

Regardless, lock washers are still useless, in any application...nuts, bolts, and just about anything except ballast. Personally, I would just send the part back and make my own with real lock nuts. The part is extremely basic, you could probably have a machine shop make two for you for the same price in a matter of minutes.

If you're going to use this part, at least use loctite, as has been recommended. I really want to stress how useless lock washers are; they work alright as just a washer, that's about it. Don't expect any actual locking function from them, as that doesn't exist.

Bryce
88 GT

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watts
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Report this Post11-20-2003 10:23 PM Click Here to See the Profile for wattsClick Here to Email wattsSend a Private Message to wattsDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Nashco:
Regardless, lock washers are still useless, in any application...

Mhmmm...

Since this is getting to a point of {I'm not sure}:

I refer you to my Jeppesen A&P General text book (which is the recommended text by the FAA I might add). Page 8-31 of the 1997 printing.

There's two paragraphs on Lock Washers.
These useless devices even have an "AN" designation to them.
And we all know how planes fall out of the air on an hourly basis.

I don't feel like typing the whole thing out - so feel free to look it up in your copy (assuming that you also have gone through the courses and have the books).

This is my last post on this topic. Use a lock washer on your car, don't use one. I really don't care any more.

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Report this Post11-20-2003 10:35 PM Click Here to See the Profile for GarethsterSend a Private Message to GarethsterDirect Link to This Post
I'm with Watts! Lock washers it is -- my Fiero airplane will never fall out of the sky!



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Report this Post11-21-2003 09:47 AM Click Here to See the Profile for NashcoClick Here to visit Nashco's HomePageClick Here to Email NashcoSend a Private Message to NashcoDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by watts:

I don't feel like typing the whole thing out - so feel free to look it up in your copy (assuming that you also have gone through the courses and have the books).

I don't have that book, all of my books and courses are geared towards cars. And we all know how cars fall out of the air on an hourly basis.

"There are a great many locking devices on the market today. The most popular is also the least effective - the lock washer. There are three basic types of lock washers: The spring washer, the wave washer, and the serrated, or star, washer.

"Neither the spring washer nore the wave washer do anything worth talking about - other than to provide the user with a false sense of security. Think about it for a moment. From experience, you know that it takes very little load to compress a spring washer. For example, the spring washer will be completely closed long before we reach recommended torque when tightening a bolt. Once compressed, the spring washer is nothing but a flat washer. If, for whatever reason, a bolt should loosen to the point where the spring washer opens enough to become a spring, there was too little residual stress in the assembled bolt for any sort of safety. In other words, the thing wasn't tightened sufficiently. Exactly the same is true of the wave washer which is, for some reason or another, popular in Germany. If you decide to use a spring lock washer, a flat washer should be placed between the lock washer and the work surface to prevent damage to the surface. This is not necessary with the wave washer.

"...I try not to use lock washers. I use prevailing torque-type self-locking nuts on all through holes, and check or jam nuts to lock rod end bearings and threaded adjusters. With blind holes, if I do not trust the thread tension of a properly tightened bolt, I use the appropriate grade of Loctite and/or safety wire. I do, however, carry a selection of aircraft spec (AN-935) spring lock washers around with me - just in case. I will not use industrial spring lock washers because they are liable to be too brittle for my taste." - Carrol Smith, Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners, and Plumbing Handbook

So Carrol (you might have heard of him if you've read a single book on designing race cars) says they are useless, he'll only use them if there's no Loctite available AND only if they are AN spec. How many Fiero owners are buying AN spec hardware? Not one. How many have easy access to Loctite, every single one.

I have another hardware book, High Performance Hardware, Fastener Technology for Auto Racers and Enthusiasts, by Forbes Aird (another good name in the automotive world). Forbes doesn't even ACKNOWLEDGE "lock washers" in his locking hardware section. The entire book is void of a spring lock washer, not even to denounce it. He also prefers the proper self-locking nut.

I was *trying* to help out, not criticize anybody who ever used a lock washer. My car has a few lockwashers on it, they were included with my poly engine mounts. As I installed them, I laughed at the fact that anybody actually believes they work...this hardware was pure junk, probably from Lowe's, quality WCF type stuff. My point is that if somebody was SO WORRIED about the Fiero Store kit not using the appropriate hardware, a lock washer is no better than a flat washer...unless they actually wanted that false sense of security. If you're truly worried about a part coming loose in a blind threaded hole, your options are limited to Loctite. If you don't want to use loctite, then make the bracket with the proper self-locking nut.

Bryce
88 GT

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Raydar
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Report this Post11-21-2003 10:14 AM Click Here to See the Profile for RaydarClick Here to Email RaydarSend a Private Message to RaydarDirect Link to This Post
Okay... Off on a tangent, here.

What is the main problem with the original paddle nuts, anyway?
The nuts losing their locking properties? Or the nuts coming loose from the plate, where they're staked in?

Mine came loose from the plate. I just stuck them back in with some silicone sealer.
Since the plate stops them from turning, I think that the bolts can be loosened and tightened without tearing the silicone.

OTOH, If the nuts losing their grip is the issue, I'm guessing that the proper size flanged locknuts shouldn't be too difficult to find. Then they could be siliconed in place, as above.

What I'm getting at, is that the Fiero Store assembly seems to be the wrong answer to the wrong question, anyway.

Opinions?

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-21-2003).]

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Report this Post11-21-2003 11:00 AM Click Here to See the Profile for ToddsterClick Here to Email ToddsterSend a Private Message to ToddsterDirect Link to This Post
They allow you to adjust your toe and camber. It is the cheapest part of the 88 front end and could have been designed better. I've had the nuts brake loose before. I just add extra steel and weld them up.
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Report this Post11-21-2003 11:21 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by Nashco:
I was *trying* to help out, not criticize anybody who ever used a lock washer.

Bryce
88 GT

Thanks for the info, Bryce!

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Report this Post11-21-2003 11:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Howard_SacksClick Here to visit Howard_Sacks's HomePageClick Here to Email Howard_SacksSend a Private Message to Howard_SacksDirect Link to This Post
uh oh, now there's two nuts running around here quoting Carroll.

 
quote
Originally posted by Nashco:

. . .

So Carrol (you might have heard of him if you've read a single book on designing race cars) says they are useless, he'll only use them if there's no Loctite available AND only if they are AN spec.

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Report this Post11-21-2003 08:48 PM Click Here to See the Profile for 88GTNeverfinishedSend a Private Message to 88GTNeverfinishedDirect Link to This Post
Anybody know the bolt specs by chance? Size and hardness?
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Report this Post02-19-2004 10:56 AM Click Here to See the Profile for cccharlieSend a Private Message to cccharlieDirect Link to This Post
Bump

Any final words on this?

Has anyone successfully used the new paddle bolts with lockwashers and/or loctite?

------------------
88 4cyl auto Fiero, AC, sunroof
"And isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" - The Tick

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Report this Post02-19-2004 04:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for hajiiSend a Private Message to hajiiDirect Link to This Post
another option would be to drill the bolt & nut on the plate to accept a small cotter pin...depends on the rating of both, though...
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Report this Post02-19-2004 05:02 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Dave MathisSend a Private Message to Dave MathisDirect Link to This Post
Originally posted by hajii:

another option would be to drill the bolt & nut on the plate to accept a small cotter pin...depends on the rating of both, though...

You can't see them. I don't think that you would be able to put a cotter pin in them. I'd say just put a lock washer on the bolt before you put it through the shaft.
My stock bolts were coming loose because the nut had come loose from the paddle. I took them out, and hammered the paddles straight again, and tack welded the nuts back onto the paddle. They stay nice and tight now.

[This message has been edited by Dave Mathis (edited 02-19-2004).]

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