quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: Also looked for crossfire in the spark plug wires & unhooked the MSD box.

Have you run the car without the box til it warms up? If so; is the noise quieter or gone? Are your plugs a whitish color?

P-

When they stated maximum lift at .450, did they include the typical .060 for clearance? If you look at Crane's site , they indicate all over the place that you must retain at least .060 to eliminate coil bind and stress, etc....with lifts of .440 and greater, you need at minimum .500 lift if I read this right.

nope, never mentioned that. the springs are spec'ed for 0.500 max lift. the shop told me 0.450 max lift. my wrecked cams tell me my max lift is under 0.440. either way, these are the springs recommended for this cam. If the springs bound, the cams wrecked, the lifter will wear a bowl into the bottom, and there will be a loose rocker ticking up top to match. starts with a slight tick tick tick, and keeps getting worse untill its downright rattling & running really bad. that was my first cam. the second one, I pulled as soon as a heard a tick tick tick. an easy check while the valve covers are off is to turn the crank, and see if any pushrods dont come up as much as the others (of the same type in/ex), or if one sits alot lower than all the others. the wear marks on the pushrods are another place to looks for this. you'll see a wear ring, which matches the lifts of the cam. (can even see it on the pushrod in your picture) if you see one with a shorter wear ring, theres a bad lobe & lifter under that pushrod. of course, the best thing is to pull the intake manifold, and look at the bottom of the lifter.

when i had my 3.2L engine (3.1L minivan engine bored 40 over) i had a phase II cam from ARI along with the higher rate valve springs they recommended, and the 1.6:1 roller tipped rockers, the lobes on the cam took a dive at 3000 miles, for a long time i chaulked it up to bad break in of the cam (mechanic broke it in so he said) however after reading some stuff on the s10 forums and there experience with the same setup i had on their 2.8L engines i found that the springs ARI sends are too much pressure and wear out the cam 100x faster than it should, If i had it to do over again id use the stock springs. i bet that engine would still be in-use today if it wasnt for ARI selling springs that have too much pressure. and the noise was alittle louder than a tick, but not quite a knock.

matthew

Mosh Man -- What did you set the valve lash to? Did you go 1.5 turns form zero lash. I have a similar setup I am putting together. I was told only a quarter turn from zero lash.

First off, theres no way the rod nuts are hitting the cam. This guy is assuming the cam is suspended over the crank like in the SBC. The 60º's cam lives in a tunnel between the cylinders and over the crank.. not even oil can splash up and hit the cam.

2nd off. Lash is key in these engines. Be sure lash is not changing due to old worn rocker nuts, and be sure all parts are from the iron head.. not the aluminum head.

I had a 3.2 in my Grand Prix using the 2030 cam, and the recommended Crane Springs. My engine used aluminum heads and a non-adjustable vavletrain, which ticked every day of its life. Even the stock 2.8 in my fiero tickes every so often.

Looking at my lifters....everything looks great....they are rotating like they should and show no signs of failure. Oil is clean and evident throughout the valleys and heads...Everything looks just GREAT!!! I even removed and disassembled the lifters to verify they are not internally damaged....look good too!...Just got my dial guage and magnetic mount and some test springs for the rockers and feeler gauges...I will look at the clearances and report what I find....I stopped at another engine shop today (they build race engines) and they said that it sounds like a spring issue....Who know?

Have either of you looked at the plugs yet?
What color are they?

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: Have either of you looked at the plugs yet? What color are they?

no, I havent yet - but I will before I continue. I've only been preparing my work area & the car - was gonna do the work this weekend (assuming no rain.....) This does sound more like a spark knock than a rod knock, and it has a very small RPM range where you can actually hear it. If it is alot more whitish than the others, would that mean I have a clogged injector in #2? (or at least low fuel coming from #2 - for whatever reason) or maybe a plenum gasket leak along the #2 runners. Thanks for the idea - simple checks are so much nicer than digging thru the engine!

I say tear into it! LOL

Py; i'm still a little unclear as to what happened when you ran the car without the MSD box. Did you run it until the car got warm? If so; did the noise become quieter then it was with the box hooked up?
Now if the plugs are whitish on either of your cars; do you have a hunting idle at all?

I've had the same idea all along about what's causing this and i hope i'm right because it will mean that there's nothing mechanically wrong with either engine and that would be a good thing.

yeah, once warmed up, the box made no difference to the knocking. My idle does hunt some (maybe 200 rpm). I havent found a vacuum leak yet, and think the hunting is due to low power at idle due to power pulley. do you have (or had) this knock also? I'm hoping your right too. and what you saying fits the puzzle pretty good. This all started with Cplensdorf trying to find spark knock/predetonation, and then noticing the same noise in mine.

Do you have an adjustable fuel regulator?
The hunting idle, knock, and (hopfully) white plugs will point to not enough fuel.
I do not believe the pulley has anything to do with it.
I would continue to run without the MSD and tune with the regulator and possibly higher octane fuel to see what happens.
However, this will somewhat depend on what the plugs look like.
Edit; i asked a question that was already answered on the first page so i took it out.

[This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 10-10-2003).]

quote Originally posted by Dave Gunsul: Do you have an adjustable fuel regulator? The hunting idle, knock, and (hopfully) white plugs will point to not enough fuel. I do not believe the pulley has anything to do with it. I would continue to run without the MSD and tune with the regulator and possibly higher octane fuel to see what happens. However, this will somewhat depend on what the plugs look like. Edit; i asked a question that was already answered on the first page so i took it out. [This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 10-10-2003).]

nope, no adjustable fuel regulator.
I do have very low power at idle (barely 12), and that does affect the idle.
If I do have a spark knock, it is isolated to #2, so I would think it would be a problem with just that injector, not a tuning issue. I will pull the plugs out this evening, and see what they have to say.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: nope, no adjustable fuel regulator. I do have very low power at idle (barely 12), and that does affect the idle. If I do have a spark knock, it is isolated to #2, so I would think it would be a problem with just that injector, not a tuning issue. I will pull the plugs out this evening, and see what they have to say.

There's something definitely wrong with your charging system if it's not charging at idle but i think this has a lot to do with tuning.
I agree that the knock maybe isolated to one cyl. but without the regulator you are probably not tuned correctly and that is why it's lean there. In any modded 60* V6 the adjustable regulator should be considered a must have item for tuning. This hunting idle is a good sign of to low pressure. I've helped a couple people tune their 3.4's now and they always begin with a hunting idle and then it is gone as you add more pressure.
Logically; if you're running slightly lean and one cylinder is hotter then that is the one it will knock on.

true, good point. I want to get the newer CS alternator to cure my low power at idle problem. I did put in 17# injectors to get more fuel flow. They were cleaned & flow checked. But I will definatly be checking my plugs tonight.

Dave,

I have no hunting idle...a clear sign of a vacuum leak...now that I found and fixed the very last potential vacuum leak, a cracked metal line to the fuel vapor canister....that made the idle sit at exactly 900 in park and drive. Idle is not a problem on mine...The fuel pressure is a constant 34-36 lbs throughout the range with a slight jump on acceleration...it appears to be functioning exactly like it should...my plugs are clean and it would be difficult to tell since you can count the time on my motor in minutes (around :45) and driven only 1-2 miles....

I have completely exhausted(no pun intended) all tests of the entire ignition system and fuel systems (not to mention it is all brand new) and also gotten an 'expert' ear to listen to the noise....and it all points to mechanical interference of some sort...the one issue that makes me believe that it is not preignition/detonation any more is that it clearly is present going through a certain rpm whether loaded or not....AND when returning back through this range back to idle, it also exhibits the same noise...no one can explain why the car would detonate on DECCELERATION, with no load...

CP; i believe that your pressure is to low. You have stock injectors and you're sitting at less pressure then many stock 2.8's sit at and you have a 3.1 with a larger cam. I believe you also need more pressure. Usually when it's to low there is a hunting idle but not always.
What exactly do you mean by your plugs are "clean"? If you haven't driven it very far at all then they will not look any different then new and that's what i'm assuming, by your description, that you mean right? You couldn't take a pic of one of the plugs and email it to me could you?
I still believe that both of you need more pressure at this point. Possibly a timing change but i believe this is all caused by low pressure/spark knock which are related.
It's certainly possible that i'm wrong and you have no idea how i wished i was there to look at the cars in person. Ironically i was in Michigan just last weekend!
Anyways, i have from the very beginning believed that this is the problem and it has yet to be rulled out. Unfortunately it will take some doing to correct including getting a new part; the Holley adjustable fuel regulator and installing it.
It's also possible that i'm only half right and one of your injectors are clogged or something but i figure the odds of both of you having that are worse then winning the lottery. That is the key right there though; what do you both have in common. Neither has the regulator and neither can adjust the fuel pressure to see if it can be tuned out.
Just my .02 but i have had experience in this area.

Dave,

What do you think the pressure should be at? It is correct according to every specification I have seen. 34-36 when running, 41-42 with key on/engine off, 60+ with return blocked....I, too thought that fuel was the problem when my pressure was at 34 and the regulator failed to even kick in because the fuel pump would not kick out any more pressure....return blocked, still 34...on acceleration would drop to high 20's ...had noise problem....replaced tank pump and checked pressure...everything to spec. and still had exact same noise....no difference with this pump....Keep in mind, everything on my engine is BRAND new crate stuff, and Pyrthians is not....I would love others with 3.1's to contribute and hold their engine at 2000 in park/neutral and tell me what they hear...I still think it is something in the combination of parts and not mixtures.....I am looking at building a wide band soon, so I can look at the O2 levels in realtime...that will tell me if my pressure is low...

On the sprak plugs...you are right, no difference can be realized because they are essentially brand new, and have no color at all...the engine has run so very little...They look just like a new plug....

Can you explain why it would still detonate on decceleration, though with no load/in park? I cannot understand how the fuel pressure would even affect this....but, admittedly, I also have not solved the issue to this day, so what the heck do I know...LOL

Just to share. My original unmodified Fiero with 2.8 and only 28k ran without a problem. When I installed the MSD 6a I had a hunting idle. With the multiple spark the MSD puts out it will lead to a lean condition and a hunting idle. I toggled between normal ignition and the MSD box. It was obvious, but also predictable. MSD should include this information in their documentation of the unit. It may also vary with some cars, or even Fieros that run different programs. When I went with my SC chip for my supercharger it went away.

looked at my spark plugs. the insulator is orangeish. the tips looked good, maybe sooty at most. they all looked similar.
the springs - no dont have the specs, but they are the ones the Fiero Store sells. the rockers are compcams roller tips 1.52:1
and with the MSD 6a, I like my idle alot better with the box, than without & does seem to start quicker.

P-

So are you tearing your pan off or what? I am kinda interested in your findings! Not to rush you at all.

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: looked at my spark plugs. the insulator is orangeish. the tips looked good, maybe sooty at most.

Sooty as in grey? What you want to find is a nice light brown/tan color. Anything else and it's not right.

CP; not sure why it would do that but computer controlled engines act funny and somewhat unpredictable when they are altered.
Much harder to figure out then a carbed engine would be but, especially after hearing about the grey plugs, i still believe you're both having fuel problems.
The computer is probably trying to compensate for the changes and that can make the engine do all kinds of strange things at different rpms.
The MSD box usually makes idle more smooth BUT, as i suspect happened with rotex, it can lean out the mixture and cause the engine to run lean which will, often times, cause a hunting idle. It stopped when he used a chip for the charger which, most likely, richened up the mixture to compensate for the increased air being forced in.
I am more convinced then ever that you both need more fuel pressure. It is hard to say what the pressure should be as CP asked me. I believe the best way to set it is by "ear" which means trial and error. The stock V6 can be anywhere from 35-45 in pressure. A wide variance to be sure but it tells the whole story. Most engines are different from each other and require different things.
Normally if i'm doing this i set it at what the stock pressure was and adjust from there. If it's hunting or i'm pretty sure it's on the low side then i start very carefully putting more pressure into it. A very slight bit each time, then idle, drive and repeat until i get it right. Once close you will drive it more and adjust for more power keeping a close eye on the plugs to see what's going on inside. Normally the car will experience a slight rich condition at start up mainly and possibly during hard acceleration though. Once you have it set where it's ideal with the plugs and your power is good (keep in mind it will still probably have rich times) then you go for a custom chip to knock out that richness if you desire it. I have two friends that did it this way and never got the chip because they took the time to be very careful (read anal) about the adjustments and both cars didn't exhibit much richness at any time. Puff of smoke when starting was it. Smooth idle and excellent power. This is a very PITA process and you need to be very anal about it. Very slight adjustments each time with plenty of testing in between adjustments. just when you think you're being to anal, be more anal.
I would keep the MSD off the engine completely though. just my opinion and i know it does make the pedal a bit more responsive but, again in my opinion, those things make more trouble then they solve.

Well after hunting through the posts, I have found several cases of individuals, including Jazzman(mentioned earlier) that have experienced spring/damper bind when using even the mildest of cams...The sounds we hear seem consistent with this and I am going this route...One thing that I have not mentioned to this point as I did not correlate it until now, but both of our engines seemed awfully noisy even at idle...I do not remember my stock 2.8 making the ticking that this motor does. (almost as if the ex. manifolds have cracked again, but I am positive they have not) I mentioned that to Pyrthian when he stopped by, but since his engine was 'ticky' also, I kind of put that in the back of my head...My 2.8 was VERY quiet, with a tiny bit of injector noise....this 3.1 is REALLY 'ticky' at idle....something I shrugged off as injector noise.....but I think I was wrong.....

CP; even if i'm not right about the to low pressure causing the knock i am right that you need more. Either way you really need more pressure. Think of it this way; you're trying to feed a bigger engine with bigger cam with the same injectors and same pressure as your stock engine.
There's also the problem that Py is having this same thing. There's certainly a possibility that since you're using the stock springs it could be causing this problem but i thought Py was using the correct compucam springs?

[This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 10-11-2003).]

yes, I am dropping the pan, all the bolts are off, the pans loose, gonna jack when I get a chance this weekend. daylight is short afterwork. I'm posting in the "dropping oil pan" thread about it. anyways, the plugs - the sooty was barely noticable, and it was black. the car seems mostly rich in fuel. escpially when cold.

P- Thanks, I look forward to your findings, although I hope there are none.....

Dave - I think Pyrthian is running 17# injectors on his....and according to Holley and most of the other references, the 15# injectors will be more than sufficient to supply fuel to a slightly modded 3.1....with the same fuel pressure....

I am going to place an adjustable one on mine when I put the top -end back on though, for adjusting when I get her running again...

quote Originally posted by Cplensdorf: Jazzman.....whats up with this issue? More details please!

Sorry, I missed this reply before. Yes, when I put the 2030 cam in my engine, before I put the rockers and pushrods on (being the extra-cautious guy that I am) I checked the amount of valve travel my stock valve train would do before coil bind. Well, with a dial indicator set up and using a lever-type spring compressor, I opened the valves until bind. Problem was, they bound before the spring coils did. After fiddling with it for a while, I discovered that the spring dampeners were being hit by the retainers long before the coils bound. I ended up grinding about a tenth off of each dampener (0.10") to prevent the retainers from hitting the dampener. That gave me more than enough room for the lift of that cam.

JazzMan

quote Originally posted by Pyrthian: anyways, the plugs - the sooty was barely noticable, and it was black. the car seems mostly rich in fuel. escpially when cold.

That's bad to hear. Sounds like you have to much fuel going on and it needs to be dialed back some. Has it been showng signs of a lot of richness? If it's been dumping a lot of fuel it might have washed out a bearing which would be horrible.
You'll probably need the regulator to dial back the pressure some to get it on track.
I was really hoping that this was your problem but i did note the 17 LB injectors and had thought it might not be.
Did you use the correct valve springs from Crane?

CP; i would still bet you're to low. If Holley is saying that then they're wrong. GM puts bigger injectors in stock 3.1's then the Fiero injectors. I can tell you from messing with these engines that you will need to adjust the pressure. My 2.8 needed more fuel with bolt ons with the stock injectors and then the 3.2 definitely needed more but that one had high compression and many mods so i haven't been relating to it as much as the 3.4's i've messed with.
Again, this might not be what's causing the knock but i do think you need to make some adjustments. In your case i'm starting to suspect the springs more and more. I would still like to know if py is using the correct springs or not first though because i think this has to be related in some way. Maybe it's not but it sure seems an awful coincidence that both of you are having the same problem with the same engine in the same state.
Wish i could be of more help but it's sounding more and more like it might actually be a mechanical problem. I really was hoping to save you a lot of problems and work. I hope it still works out to be something simple and that neither of you have to tear the whole engine apart.

[This message has been edited by Dave Gunsul (edited 10-11-2003).]

P- Did you use the stock dampers under the Crane springs? Maybe this is the holy grail?

the roller tip rockers I put in made the motor sound a little more like a sewing machine at idle. and the injectors got me running a little rich. the dampers? what part is that? is that the spring guide in the center? if so, no - the crane springs are double springs, and theres no room for them.

anyways, I know the fuel mix isnt perfect, but its off in the rich direction, not lean. when I get the cash together, going to get a custom chip made - to fix the fuel mix, the No EGR & the low temp thermostat. I barely get 20 MPG. I like the MSD, dont think its causing anything bad. and, today I find out if I spun a bearing....

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 10-12-2003).]

I am glad you found your problem...now, my dilema..should I just pull the thing back out and look at all of the bearings....it sure is easier to assemble the thing out of the car...

Did you just start pulling caps and come across number 2 or was that the first one you pulled?

no, #2 is the only cap I popped, but all the others dont have play in them, #2 did. Gonna start the sanding & cleaning tommarow, should be on the road next weekend knock free & grinnin!

P-

I am glad you found this....I am wondering though if you may have just gotten lucky to believe the lower end was at fault ans stumble upon a problem before it beacme a big one...Why do you think this caused such an obvious misfire in that specific rpm range though? I fear you may still have this problem after you get her all back together....I hope I am wrong for your sake...
Can you get her back together sooner, LOL -(for our sake)so I know if I should drop my motor or not... It will be so much easier to pull mine and repair if necessary..

[This message has been edited by Cplensdorf (edited 10-12-2003).]

Yeah, bad bearing will not give misfire. No this will not solve the slight misses at 2000rpm. Ever since my bored throttle body, I've had slight hesitation & stumbling problems at take off & low rpm cruise. The MSD box really helped that, but didnt completely cure it. Thats why I was so concerened about the TPS when we hooked up your laptop.