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2.5 Performance build up, I need some input! by Psychosis39
Started on: 05-21-2003 04:21 PM
Replies: 12
Last post by: Monza76 on 05-24-2003 05:27 PM
Psychosis39
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Report this Post05-21-2003 04:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Psychosis39Send a Private Message to Psychosis39Direct Link to This Post
I am deciding to see what I can get out of a 4cylinder motor. Also the fiero I bought is a 2m4 but the harness is all cut and i dont want to redo all of that, so I am just going to put a carbed intake on it. Www.cliffordperformance.com sells one for the iron duke engines. One is for 85 and up but I am not sure if it will bolt up to the pontiac duke engine. This is the intake http://cliffordperformanceshop.com/catalog/42-4518wh_intake_manifold_water_heated_1985_and_up_2151376.htm

Do you think this would fit on the four cylinder. Also can you help me with build up options and if this would bolt up to the Iron older super duty head. Because, I think I'd rather get that one then the aluminum due to money

Thanks
Jim

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yosemitefieros
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Report this Post05-21-2003 04:36 PM Click Here to See the Profile for yosemitefierosSend a Private Message to yosemitefierosDirect Link to This Post
Say Jim, if the harness is all cut out are you going to be able to have the computer still work?

If you can go be a junk yard, it might not be too tough for you to find the harness for your little animal. It would be good to do.

There were carbureted 2.5L motors early on. I would encourage you to try to get the harness and run the fuel injection if you can as it is a good match for the motor and is easy to find.

Do you have any smog laws in your state? In the 'People's Republic of California' we have limitations as to what we can and can't do on our Fieros. I will have to go to a smog referee just to have any modifications approved by the 'Big Mother' State of California. I can't do any modifications that are out of smog compliance in this state. I drool at those of you who can basically do anything you want with your Fieros... so I try to remain within the rules and still have average performance.

Someday...(15 years from now), I too will have the freedom to build my car the way I want... **It really Stinks.**

What ever happened to Freedom?

Gary Sconce

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Psychosis39
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Report this Post05-22-2003 12:48 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Psychosis39Send a Private Message to Psychosis39Direct Link to This Post
I want to build up the fiero with a carbed intake because i am going to build it up. The intake is a good one along with a good carb, but for right now im going to fix a few things and patch the wires that are cut up. But, that carb stuff is going to be better on me for what im doing. I also want to find a performance build up for it.
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Oslo
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Report this Post05-22-2003 03:15 AM Click Here to See the Profile for OsloClick Here to visit Oslo's HomePageSend a Private Message to OsloDirect Link to This Post
Here's what I've learned about our 2.5s.

They were built by GM to be dependable. But under one circumstance only: They remain stock.

My first 2.5 that I rebuilt was just because it was wearing down and I wanted to rebuild it before I HAD to.

It got a valve job, cylinders bored, and the block decked. Used stock EVERYTHING just new parts. Even with those slight modifications the duke couldn't handle the power increase.

3 months later I put a hole through the cylinder wall into the water jacket because a piston snapped off of the journal rod.

I just got finished rebuilding it again with a new block and did the same modifications but this time I put a turbo kit on it too. MORE POWER!

This may seem kinda silly, but this time I'm using forged pistons instead of cast pistons and stainless steel valves instead of stock valves. Forged pistons and stainless steel valves will be able to stand up to the extra power and won't break.

But what will happen this time, is that my stock cam will desintegrate, or my block will crack, or my springs will go, or , or, or......

It's just not a good place to start to get power out of. I rebuilt the 2.5 on two premises this time:

1. I hadn't known the limitations of the duke until it was too late and I was already committed.
2. It's still cheaper than an engine swap.

Next time I break the engine, I'm just going to buy a new car, and let the Feiro sit for some time. I'll build up a 3800 SC or a V8 of some kind and do a swap in the future.

I hope I don't ruin your day...

------------------

Car is dead right now
and I'm going to the 20th!
chris_oslo_nelson@hotmail.com

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Monza76
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Report this Post05-22-2003 09:28 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Monza76Click Here to visit Monza76's HomePageSend a Private Message to Monza76Direct Link to This Post
The 2.5 is not a particularly strong engine. The early 1984s had a problem with substandard connecting rods (typical GM, they bought connecting rods from the lowest bidder and had a failure rate of around 20%) by late 1984 the problem was supposedly fixed. (many of the 1984 fires were the result of a connecting rod breaking and punching a hole in the front of the block which then splashed oil on the exhaust manifold and the main electrical connector resulting in a fire).

There are fewer stories of failed connecting rods in later years.

The SD engines were fantastic, however so is the price tag. These blocks are made from higher pressure iron castings with more internal structure to support the crank, larger bearings and forged crankshafts with larger counterweights. Together with high quality connecting rods and forged pistons we have an engine which can withstand 7000 rpm (and with the improved valvetrain can be reliably used with a 6000rpm redline) Set up with the Holly TBI, an appropriate intake, headers and a good street exhaust they are 180hp with mountains of low end torque. More radical setups can reliably produce significantly more than 200hp.

OK, enough dreaming, now for reality. There are owners who race basically stock 2.5s and, with breathing improvements, rev them to nearly 6000rpm, they are lucky. This is a 5000rpm motor (4500 preferably) so if you want more go you have to concentrate on low end torque. If you are rebuilding an engine have all of the connecting rods carefully inspected and tested (I don't know of any aftermarket replacements unfortunately so this may be your only hope). Apparently a later crankshaft, such as an 88, can still be used in the early block (check this first) if so this is a better crank. Use a high flow oil pump. Don't overbore by too much, just what is necessary to clean up the bore, any more will compromise the block (this is a very thin wall design). There are cams available for the flat tappet blocks, use one that produces power at lower RPM ( if it is designed to make torque at 4000rpm and peak power ar 5500 then stay away, this is a recipe for a broken engine). The head can be equipped with roller rockers (big block Chevy I believe) and should be ported (gasket matched) but again, don't remove too much material. The swirl port design can have the restrictive vanes reduced in size to allow better flow, the rule here is simple, if you haven't researched carefully and you don't know what your doing then don't do it. The Holly TBI can be used with the stock intake, not ideal but it does allow some gain. (the four barrel carb and manifold would work well, if it fits, but keep the carb small with vacuum secondaries so you can tune it to not bog the engine) Since this is not a high rpm engine an exhaust header may not be cost effective (not much gain for the price but still an improvement over stock).

These are just guidelines and will not produce a speed demon, however it will get you up to the 120-140hp range, it will probably not explode, and it should have a life expectancy of over half that of a stock motor (if not more) as long as you respect the rev limitations. With the lighter weight of the 4 cylinder car it will have similar performance to the V6, with a possible advantage in low end acceleration but a disadvantage at the higher rpm (the V6 has a 6000 redline)

Obviously big power will involve a swap to a V6 or V8 (or a Quad 4) but the Iron Duke can perform well enough to power a car with suspension improvements and make it a demon in the twisty bits.

Good luck

More info at my site.

Ira


------------------
The Iron Duke Resource Site

[This message has been edited by Monza76 (edited 05-22-2003).]

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Psychosis39
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Report this Post05-22-2003 04:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Psychosis39Send a Private Message to Psychosis39Direct Link to This Post
I know what your saying, when its said and done its not going to be more then a performance rebuild and the intake/carb. What kind of cam specs do i have to look at?

I just plan on creating a budgetly built peppy engine and not go all wild, I plan to add alittle bit more compression and if i blow it then I blow it ill just build another and do a trial and error thing. But, what I am saying is, I am aware of what im getting myself into but I neeed the best cam specs for the engine and where to find an iron SD head.

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Monza76
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Report this Post05-22-2003 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Monza76Click Here to visit Monza76's HomePageSend a Private Message to Monza76Direct Link to This Post
http://www.amotion.com/p4.html

I'd use the TORQUE AND CITY CAR cam, it makes power down low.

Ira

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F86GT
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Report this Post05-22-2003 04:55 PM Click Here to See the Profile for F86GTSend a Private Message to F86GTDirect Link to This Post
Oslo: where did you get your forged pistons from? also, did you make your own turbo kit or did you buy one. details, details. i want to do the same thing to my duke as it needs rebuilding too. let me know.
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Monza76
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Report this Post05-22-2003 07:40 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Monza76Click Here to visit Monza76's HomePageSend a Private Message to Monza76Direct Link to This Post
OK since this is carrying on I have another question as well. Are there any good quality connecting rods available for the Iron Duke with stock pistons and crankshaft?

BTW I don't know if I mentioned that a VIN code R block from an A-body (Pontiac 6000, etc.)from the same years will work fine, but avoid the U code from the N-bodies ( Grand Am, etc.) they are physically shorter due to some bizzarre modifications by GM to make them fit the smaller cars and suffer some unusual problems as a result. The S10 block is stronger but would need a starter mount drilled and tapped on the other side of the block, there is also an issue about water pump location, if it cannot take a side mounted pump then forget it. Too bad, the internal structure of this block is very similar to the SD4, just not made with the better materials.

[This message has been edited by Monza76 (edited 05-22-2003).]

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Psychosis39
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Report this Post05-23-2003 04:13 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Psychosis39Send a Private Message to Psychosis39Direct Link to This Post
I found a place that makes ALOT of stuff for our dukes here at good prices. The site is www.cliffordperformance.com monza i would say that you have heard of them. They are a big company now and specialize in smaller engines. Dukes are their premier four cylinder engine, as they have a dynamic number of parts.

Check out that site

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Monza76
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Report this Post05-23-2003 07:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Monza76Click Here to visit Monza76's HomePageSend a Private Message to Monza76Direct Link to This Post
Thanks Psychosis39 I should add this link to my web page.

Ira

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Psychosis39
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Report this Post05-24-2003 11:43 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Psychosis39Send a Private Message to Psychosis39Direct Link to This Post
Ok now Monza....

Now that I found a source of forged/aluminum/andhypernautic pistons, performance connecting rods, a specially ported head with bigger valves thats slightly decked, a good cam, good intake/carb what do you think??
I have a build up sheet from clifford research and I can email it to any of you if you email me.

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Monza76
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Report this Post05-24-2003 05:27 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Monza76Click Here to visit Monza76's HomePageSend a Private Message to Monza76Direct Link to This Post
Send me one at acrummey85@hotmail.com

Ira

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