This is my first year doing some serious racing and I have a question regarding shock/strut upgrades. I have done most of the usual suspension upgrade to improve the handling of my 87 GT. (Poly front and back, rear sway bar, zero bump steer correction kit, etc)
What handling aspects should I look for to improve with new KYB's or Koni's?
I want to be able to make an informed decision whether the additional cost to Koni's would be worth it.
Any comments will be appreciated.
BTW, the previous owner replaced all the shocks/struts with Sears Roadhandler gas in March 2000.
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Robert Beaubien 87 GT 5-speed
[This message has been edited by RBeaubien (edited 08-11-2002).]
If you ask at sears, they can usually tell you just who makes what products. I think Sears Brand Tires are usually Cooper, DieHard Batteries are from Johnson Controls, and Struts/Shocks are Monroe.
The GT already has fairly stiff springs. Adding stiffer shocks could make it very uncomfortable to drive outside racing. Several people around here have commented the Koni adjustables must be set to softest for street use and even then are really stiff.
------------------ 11-Sept-01, The day the world as we knew it ended.
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04:19 PM
RBeaubien Member
Posts: 775 From: Glendale (Phoenix), AZ, USA Registered: Mar 2002
From what I hear, held sells high quality stuff, but Shox.com has a better deal on them.
I currently have KYB GR2s on the rear of mine and they are WAY too soft. After the first ride I got in an fiero with konis I knew I made a mistake. KYBs are really the only suspension mod I think I made a mistake on.
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10:12 PM
Aug 13th, 2002
RBeaubien Member
Posts: 775 From: Glendale (Phoenix), AZ, USA Registered: Mar 2002
I'm sorry, this is getting just a little bit frustrating. The question was not what to buy. My original questions are: "What handling aspects should I look for to improve with new KYB's or Koni's?"
and:
"What I really want to know is how additional dampening affects handling with respect to Autocrossing or other forms of racing?"
and no one seems to want to answer those questions.
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12:06 AM
G-Nasty Member
Posts: 2099 From: woodlands,TX,USA Registered: Jan 2001
Currently this is my GT front setup: Belt-Tec lowering Spindles KONI's Adjusted "ALL THE WAY" no onions... Suspension Techniques Drop Springs small metal coil boosters (prevent rubbing) Baretta Cross Drilled & Vented Rotors Moog Dampner w/ Moog tie-rods Custom Cut Splash/Dust Covers Prothane Sway Bar bushings. YOKOHAMA ZR AVS 520's My fiero acts extremely well under hard driving & high speeds. The lower & stiffer your suspension is allows for higher speeds w/ more control. You probably already knew that-These cars in stock form get quirky & unpredictable @ speeds over 100 mph. If you plan on driving fast, I would suggest getting Soft tires & KONIS. Just greased new bearings w/ synthetic last week-take a peek: OUT>
[This message has been edited by G-Nasty (edited 08-13-2002).]
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03:36 AM
Howard_Sacks Member
Posts: 1871 From: Cherry Hill, NJ Registered: Apr 2001
Um, you want me to tell you what a shock/strut/damper does?
I don't think there's room here(I don't have time today regardless).
Real quick though your car will corner, transition and respond to driver inputs better, quicker, smoother, more predictibly with the konis then with Monroes.
The KYBs are valved softer which means your rear is going to almost "bounce" when you make a change of direction or velocity. The Konis are valved stiffer and ALSO allow you to fine tune the valving(they're adjustable).
Buy Carrol Smith's "Tune to Win" or Staniforth's "Competition Car Suspension" if you really want to know "why" you need quality shocks.
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03:49 PM
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
Originally posted by RBeaubien: What handling aspects should I look for to improve with new KYB's or Koni's?
My opinion is that if the Sears shocks on the car are in good shape you won't notice much or anything with KYBs.
The biggest advantage of the Konis is their adjustability. This adjustability lets you change the front / rear damping balance so you can change the understeer / oversteer characteristics on initial turn-in. Once you're in a steady state corner the shocks have no effect, but with autocrossing you have a lot more transitions than you do steady state corners so shock tuning is pretty important.
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What I really want to know is how additional dampening affects handling with respect to Autocrossing or other forms of racing?
For pavement racing we'll assume that your suspension is only helping you corner and not soak up bumps. That's pretty close to the truth for most courses.
Konis are adjustable for rebound damping only. Let's say you have the rear set at full stiff. When you go into a corner and the car tries to roll, the inside wheel has a lot of damping on it so it's slow to drop down. This forces more weight to transfer to the outside rear. Since the weight of the rear of the car is unevenly split between the two sides, you have less grip at that end. Thus the car will tend towards oversteer on turn-in. On the other hand, if you have the fronts at full stiff, then you'll get understeer on turn in. The balance between front and rear is what determines understeer / oversteer.
When I was playing around with my Konis at an autocross practice I tried it with both ends set fairly soft and with both ends fairly stiff, but I kept the same balance at both settings to keep the car neutral. In my case ('88 Formula) I found that the car handled better with the shocks stiffer overall. The car seemed tighter and quicker to turn in.
If I were you I'd spend the extra couple hundred and get the Konis, or else just keep what you have. I don't think you'll notice a significant improvement with the KYBs. The Konis also have a lifetime warantee and they can be re-valved if you get stiffer springs.
In the interest of full disclosure I'll say that I haven't I haven't driven on KYBs. But a few years ago when one of my front Konis died I threw some good Monroes on the front for the National Tour. I had to adjust the rears a bit to get the balance back, but they worked very well. For that reason I don't think you'll be able to tell much of a difference between any good non-adjustable shock.
If you like reading, pick up Fred Puhn's How To Make Your Car Handle or Carol Smith's Tune To Win. They're both very good books with lots of suspension info.
In the local auto-x group, all the other drivers are running 88's. I have the 87. I am typically 2-5 seconds behind all of them. I am the only rookie (4 events so far). I'm sure some of this is driver skill, but I'm curious how much it is car. The biggest problem I have when I start pushing the car close to the edge is when I am in a turn and realize I am going too fast to complete the turn. As soon as I let off the accellerator, the back end starts to come around on me. Having never driven an 88 in auto-x, is this typical and if so, how do I correct it either through driving or suspension modifications? I don't think the struts will make a difference for this particular problem.
Thanx
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05:33 PM
Doug Chase Member
Posts: 1487 From: Seattle area, Washington State, USA Registered: Sep 2001
In the local auto-x group, all the other drivers are running 88's. I have the 87. I am typically 2-5 seconds behind all of them. I am the only rookie
I start pushing the car close to the edge is when I am in a turn and realize I am going too fast to complete the turn. As soon as I let off the accellerator, the back end starts to come around on me.
Wow, you have other Fieros to play with? In the five years when I was autocrossing regularly in Seattle I was the only Fiero there except for 2 or 3 events.
Some of your problems are driver related and some are car problems.
What tires are you and they running? I picked up about 2 seconds when going from decent but nothing fancy stock size street tires to 225/50-15 autocross tires.
The snap oversteer is typical of Fieros, and of many mid and rear engined cars. The primary solution is to learn not to cause this. I snap spun my Formula at one of the first corners of the first autocross I ever did with it. Long straight into a hard left, brake, turn, SPIN! You'll learn to judge your speed and brake in a straight line so you can go into a corner at the right speed with neutral throttle.
What do you have for sway bars? If you put a stock front bar in the rear and didn't change the front you probably have too much rear bar. This will make the rear end loose. You'll want to upsize the front or downsized the rear.
How's your alignment? I'd start with 0 toe in front and about 1/8" in in the rear. A little change in rear toe can make a big difference. I'd want about 1.5 degrees of negative camber in the rear. Shoot for that same amount in the front, but I doubt you'll be able to get it.
The struts could help with the snap oversteer. If you have the rear struts softer the rear of the car will stick better on transients. It's not the end-all be-all solution, though. You'll have to get the shocks, bars, tires, tire pressures, alignment, and your driving all tuned together.
My autocross experience is primarily with '88s. I've autocrossed an '87, but it was stock and had no rear bar. It understeered like a pig. I've autocrossed my '85 rally car and it's set up completely different from any other Fiero in existence. Still, it was pretty stable.
If you get a chance for fun runs ask one of the '88 drivers to drive your car. Most autocrossers are friendly and would jump at this. After you've been around a while they'll probably let you drive their car, too.
Wow, you have other Fieros to play with? In the five years when I was autocrossing regularly in Seattle I was the only Fiero there except for 2 or 3 events.
Yeah. Myself and one other show up regularly, and then there are 3 others that show up randomly. Its a blast.
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Some of your problems are driver related and some are car problems.
What tires are you and they running? I picked up about 2 seconds when going from decent but nothing fancy stock size street tires to 225/50-15 autocross tires.
I am running Dunlop SP Sport 8000's all the way around. 225/50ZR15 front and 245/50ZR15 rear on stock rims.
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The snap oversteer is typical of Fieros, and of many mid and rear engined cars. The primary solution is to learn not to cause this. I snap spun my Formula at one of the first corners of the first autocross I ever did with it. Long straight into a hard left, brake, turn, SPIN! You'll learn to judge your speed and brake in a straight line so you can go into a corner at the right speed with neutral throttle.
What do you have for sway bars? If you put a stock front bar in the rear and didn't change the front you probably have too much rear bar. This will make the rear end loose. You'll want to upsize the front or downsized the rear.
The front bar is stock (7/8"). The rear is 1 size smaller (13/16").
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How's your alignment? I'd start with 0 toe in front and about 1/8" in in the rear. A little change in rear toe can make a big difference. I'd want about 1.5 degrees of negative camber in the rear. Shoot for that same amount in the front, but I doubt you'll be able to get it.
Front Toe 1/32", Rear Toe 3/16" Front Camber -.31* Left, -.20* Right Rear Camber -1.35* Left, -1.72* Right
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The struts could help with the snap oversteer. If you have the rear struts softer the rear of the car will stick better on transients. It's not the end-all be-all solution, though. You'll have to get the shocks, bars, tires, tire pressures, alignment, and your driving all tuned together.
I pretty much have decided to save up for the Koni's.
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My autocross experience is primarily with '88s. I've autocrossed an '87, but it was stock and had no rear bar. It understeered like a pig. I've autocrossed my '85 rally car and it's set up completely different from any other Fiero in existence. Still, it was pretty stable.
If you get a chance for fun runs ask one of the '88 drivers to drive your car. Most autocrossers are friendly and would jump at this. After you've been around a while they'll probably let you drive their car, too.
Because it is so hot here, we haven't had time-only runs during the summer since the events are night events. Next month, the move back to sunday morning events and time-only runs will be possible. I will be asking one or more of the guys for a shot at driving their car for a run. I think at least one will let me take a run with their car.
Thanx for the advice.
[This message has been edited by RBeaubien (edited 08-13-2002).]
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07:55 PM
Aug 14th, 2002
FierOmar Member
Posts: 1646 From: Glendale, California, USA Registered: Dec 2001
Robert: If you would like to try your car on a real road racing course, bring it to Willow Springs, Cal. for the weekend of August 24-25, hosted by the Touring Car Racing Ass'n (www.touringcarclub.com). We plan on unveiling our Fiero Sports Racer at this event. It would be nice to see another Fiero out there. BTW, don't worry about being outperformed by us... it's a stock V6 with a 4-speed. Send me a PM if you are interested.
11-Sept-01, The day the world as we knew it ended.
