It has been fun reading all the experts advice on Engine Swaps and such. (Transmissions included) And the information that always seems to be glossed over is the information that I look the hardest at. ( And I was really amused when people started calling Archie "an Engineer".) Not claming to be one myself, I started researching the ramifications of adding a heavy SBC V8 to my most favorite little car, as I was sorely tempted to do just this, based on all the positive feed back on this Forum for just this swap. Being an Ex-truck driver, the first thing that I checked with was the design specifications of the car. And shock! GM says that the total load carring capacity is only 400 pounds. To put this into English, That is total weight of the passengers, luggage and any modifications done to the car. If one exceeds the design specifications willfully, and causes injury to another person that will open up a can of worms that not just only the rich need worry about.
The "Engineering" barb is a result of the fact that this information has never come out in the time that I have been reading information on this forum. And this, added to the transmission failure after only 30,000 miles that a very prestigious member suffered, has made my mind up that unless one uses an all aluminum SBC that is producing under 280 ftlbs of torque ( for the street ....shows and off road are totally different subjects altogether), this swap is a very big, big mistake. And every one who is recommending this swap for the street without stating this very important fact is remiss. There are better and less expensive engine modifications / swaps that would meet the weight and power limits that this car has. Thanks to all for reading this, and if you must answer negatively, or flame, please be ready to back it up with Engineering Facts, because I would like to have this engine ( cast iron block, aluminum heads) still be a viable option for me. Rest assured that I will listen to everything that one has to add. TIA, PC

Although there are huge fans of the V8, for the most part talking to the guru's on the SCCA curcit the souped up custom made 4 banger or the cheaper route the HO quad four.

As far as the liability factor into it, you have an excellent point and you might be right on this one, but there might be a sunset pervision due to the age of the car, but I think the liablity factors falls to the manufacture and since you moded the car then they are exempt. But any good lawyer will find a small crack to weasel their way into a claim.

Good subject!. I will look into it.

SanBerdueFiero: You raise a very valid point. It's something that's been on my mind for quite some time now. People don't stop to think of the consequences of adding all these goodies to their Fieros and making them so much heavier. Not only are you affecting the power-to-weight ratio, and fuel economy, and putting more load on the suspension and brakes, but you're also adding a bunch more kinetic energy which will increase damage in a collision.

I think the best solution for the problem would be to find out how much weight the V8 will add to the car, and lighten up other parts of the car to account for it. Apparently, the consensus is that a SBC V8 will add about 75-80 pounds to the car (as compared to the 2.8 V6). Completely remove the A/C system and you should break even. Remove some other non-essential parts (wheel well liners, rubber splash guards, aluminum plates under the vent gratings, etc) and you should have plenty of breathing room in the weight department.

However, if you plan on using the car as a daily driver or a show car, then the stuff I just mentioned above will be unsatisfactory. You'll have to think of some other way to counteract the weight increase. Aircraft carpet comes to mind.

Also keep in mind that the Northstar is touted to weigh about the same as the 2.8 V6, with the Caddy 4.9 not far behind (thanks to its alum engine block).

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 08-10-2002).]

And your point is what? If you don't want to do a SBC, don't.

It is Illegeal / dangerous to even speed in a car, but we all do it. If you are going to shame the idea of adding more weight to the car, than you have to shame this also.

As far as the prestigous members trans failure, you forgot about the total miles on that transaxle. That transaxle was nearing the end of it's service life, just with the miles alone on it.

Would you like to know how many stock engined Fiero transaxles I replace in the run of a year? On average, about 8.

I have been following this forum for a number of years, and have only seen 3 V8 Fiero owners suffer transaxle failure.
In each case it was a high mile transaxle, and they admitted that they " used it" .

Again, what is the point of this post?

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[This message has been edited by jelly2m8 (edited 08-10-2002).]

Talk to any SBC fiero owner and they'll tell you that with a rear sway bar, they have noticed no difference in handling. Right now CrazyD is undergoing an aluminum head ZZ430 swap and swaping to a 5-speed (from an automatic) there is expected to be little to no weight gain from what the car weighed with the 2.8 and automtic. That 400lbs also underrated. Im sure its around 500 lbs or more, i dont think gm figured that everyone who will drive it will weigh less than 200lbs. This sticker appears the same with an automatic and manual versions of the fiero and the automatic is heavier.

Wait for Archie, he'll set ya strait
he has his personal and test cars that have thousands and thousands of miles on them without and v-8 related failures. He also garentee's that if a stock axel should snap due to the V-8, he will personally come out and replace it for free
www.v8archie.com for more info

whos tranny went after 30K miles? On the v-8 of the tranny itself? Are you taling about CaliKid? his tranny had 120,000 miles on it total with 30 with the V-8, the tranny doesnt automatically become new when you install a v-8 it still had all the wear and tear it had with the 2.8 on it
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--Adam--
1987 Blue GT 5-speed
IM AOL: GTFiero

[This message has been edited by GTFiero1 (edited 08-10-2002).]

If I add a 100 pounds to my car I can still gain 130 pounds I am good to go.
Some states do have laws on how much a cars power can be increased, but what are they going to do bring a road side dyno and test my car out.

So I guess that when GM added an optional 454 to my Suburban instead of the standard inline 6 that they totally redesigned the entire vehicle around the added weight of the engine? That additional weight changed the handling characteristics of the truck (I have driven both, I know), so if I had ever wrecked my 'Burb, I could have blamed GM for putting a boat anchor under the hood?

Not to mention that the weight rating changes if you change the springs, shocks, brakes, tires, etc. Or if you take measures to strenghten the frame, (though I'd feel safer driving around with 400hp in a fiero frame than in a f-body chassis), lighten the car, and so on.
If you're still worried about weight and excess torque, stick a northstar in your car.

lame!

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by artherd: lame!

I am still listening.... and if this is lame, Remember that it has as much weight as your supposed Northstar swap...just when are you going to get that thing on the Road? ...PC

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: I am still listening.... and if this is lame, Remember that it has as much weight as your supposed Northstar swap...just when are you going to get that thing on the Road? ...PC

I am sorry that i said supposed...I realize the difficulty in what you are doing and am sure that you will have a fine vehicle when you are finished, ... sorry again...PC

quote Originally posted by Blacktree: [b]SanBerdueFiero: Apparently, the consensus is that a SBC V8 will add about 75-80 pounds to the car (as compared to the 2.8 V6). Completely remove the A/C system and you should break even.

I would like to know where you are getting 75-80 lbs in savings from removing the A/C? The compressor is the single heaviest component and I think it weighs in at less than 20 lbs. Are you telling me that aluminum lines, an aluminum condensor, and an aluminum evaporator core weigh 60 lbs? For some reason that doesn't sound right to me. Maybe if you removed all the A/C and heater and blower/hvac system you might save 80 lbs which leaves you with a hollow dash and foggy windows on a humid night.

That being said, a SBC will add a hell of a lot more weight than 80 lbs over the 2.8L (that is if your V8 has iron heads). If you have any question about the weight differences between the SBC and the 2.8L, you need to look no further than your closest 3rd generation F-bodys. I have driven a 3.1L camaro, and Iron headed 305 tbi camaro, and my aluminum headed 350 firebird and can tell you that by far, the V6 was more than 80lbs lighter.

quote Originally posted by jelly2m8: I have been following this forum for a number of years, and have only seen 3 V8 Fiero owners suffer transaxle failure. In each case it was a high mile transaxle, and they admitted that they " used it" .

I am still waiting to see some 1/4 mile time slips from those V8 fiero owners. Anyone? I am always hearing about how the tranny's (manuals and auto's) will hold up fine to the V8's but I can never seem to find anyone who is actually "beating" on their car (and is taking it to the track to prove it) that has convinced me they will indeed hold up. (no flames intended---i just want to know)

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1987 Pontiac Fiero Coupe #18,838
3800 Series II SFI; 4T60-E Trans w/ 3.33 final drive; Terminator exhaust; 4 wheel vented disc conversion; Walbro 307 fuel pump; W-body air box w/ K&N filter; Rear 32mm sway bar; 134a functioning A/C; GM CD player w/ factory location sub; much more and...stock GN's TURBO on the way!

1987 Pontiac GTA
-5.7L SuperRam MPFI
-4L60-E Trans
-3.73 SRD

http://dtcc.cz28.com

I had similar concerns about that, but then I looked into it a little farther.

That 2.8 V6 is surprisingly heavy. You can put the Cadillac 4.9 in there and, IIRC, it's actually *lighter* than the 2.8 is. (Mighta been the N*. Can't remember; just remember being surprised that the V8 was lighter.)

There's something like an 80 pound difference between the automatic and manual transaxles (the automatic is over 130 lbs).

Has anyone posted any complaints about the driving characteristics of the SBC swap?

Archie says the transmissions can handle it. He's the de facto expert on shoving V8s into Fieros; as far as I'm concerned, his opinion on the subject is good enough for me.

That's my $0.02.

Ed

I'm no expert but it seems to me if you are going to use a V8 you should also use the transmission that was designed for it.

I would skeptical about bolting a V8 to my Getrag and expecting it to hold together.

Just wondering if there were any Northstar Fieros on the forum? I would be interested in hearing about the performance of such.

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87 Fiero GT (Rotrex Supercharger)
86 Fiero SE (My first Car)
97 Grand Prix GTP
WWW.ANGELFIRE.COM/PA5/DAVIDFIERO

First, The auto trans weighs exactly 132 lbs DRY. Add in 10 pints of trans fluid is about another 10 lbs. So if the Fiero chassis can only hold 400 lbs difference, What model Fiero are you talking about?
Example: An 84 base coupe with 4-spd and no other options weighs in just under 2500 lbs,
An 87 GT with all factory options and auto trans weighs just over 2800 lbs. Going by your 400lbs limit, If I were to convert an the coupe to the GT, I would need to weigh less than 100lbs just to be the driver.

As for can a trans handle a V-8, When Archie was driving around his first Finale, Whenever he gave rides in it, he called it the 0-100-0. He would do a burn out, scream up to 100, then to demonstrait his big brake kit, he would slam on the brakes back to a complete stop. Last year he must have given at least 10-15 rides at the Twin Lakes Fiero fest alone. The car had an LM1 V-8 and the Isuzu 5-spd trans.
Archie's drag car is an auto and they have done lot's of burn-outs and it was it the drag strip at least once. There is a video of it.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: It has been fun reading all the experts advice on Engine Swaps and such. (Transmissions included) And the information that always seems to be glossed over is the information that I look the hardest at. ( And I was really amused when people started calling Archie "an Engineer".) Not claming to be one myself, I started researching the ramifications of adding a heavy SBC V8 to my most favorite little car, as I was sorely tempted to do just this, based on all the positive feed back on this Forum for just this swap. Being an Ex-truck driver, the first thing that I checked with was the design specifications of the car. And shock! GM says that the total load carring capacity is only 400 pounds. To put this into English, That is total weight of the passengers, luggage and any modifications done to the car. If one exceeds the design specifications willfully, and causes injury to another person that will open up a can of worms that not just only the rich need worry about. The "Engineering" barb is a result of the fact that this information has never come out in the time that I have been reading information on this forum. And this, added to the transmission failure after only 30,000 miles that a very prestigious member suffered, has made my mind up that unless one uses an all aluminum SBC that is producing under 280 ftlbs of torque ( for the street ....shows and off road are totally different subjects altogether), this swap is a very big, big mistake. And every one who is recommending this swap for the street without stating this very important fact is remiss. There are better and less expensive engine modifications / swaps that would meet the weight and power limits that this car has. Thanks to all for reading this, and if you must answer negatively, or flame, please be ready to back it up with Engineering Facts, because I would like to have this engine ( cast iron block, aluminum heads) still be a viable option for me. Rest assured that I will listen to everything that one has to add. TIA, PC

Define "Engineering Fact".

Why did GM give the car a 400 lb load rating? I'm sure it had nothing to do with suspension and spring rates. Ever notice how many people put stiffer springs (as much as 400 ppi for some of the AutoXers) in their Fieros?

The accepted weight for an iron head SBC is 575 lbs. A 2.8 weighs ~400 lbs. That's 175 lbs difference.

A 4.9 w/o AC compressor weighs the same as a 2.8 with A/C compressor. A Northstar is only about 20-30 lbs heavier than this.

If you consider that stock VW VR6 cars equipped with roadracing slicks frequently strip all the teeth off of third gear in their transmissions, maybe you'll realize just how well the Getrag does dealing with double to triple the car's stock HP going through it.

In my opinion, solid engine mounting contributes to driveline breakages. Compliance is what lets parts survive when loaded beyond their design specifications. I think that the compliance of a rubber or poly mounted drivetrain would allow even better success with transmission life.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-11-2002).]

First, I'd like to say that the Fiero is very much over-engineered. The extra weight doesn't seem to cause any structural problems in my 350 V8 Fiero. For a purist, the extra weight does create some minor handling problems. So, I've spent a lot of time and money beefing up the suspension to the point where it handles better than it did originally. Things like poly bushings, new ball joints and tie rod ends, RCC bump steer kit, rear coil-overs with higher spring rate springs, heavy duty shocks and struts, and rear sway bar. Don't forget you'll need to upgrade the brakes too.

There are ways to reduce the weight of a small block Chevy. Using tube headers, aluminum intake manifold, and aluminum heads will significantly put the heavy beast on a diet by probably 50 to 60 pounds. Removing the AC stuff is good for a few more pounds, but I highly doubt it's anywhere close to what was claimed in an earlier post. I also relocated the battery to the front of the car too. While I didn't eliminate any extra mass, it did wonders in balancing weight distribution. If you do all these things, you won't have nearly as much extra weight in the rear as you might initially think.

I bought my V8 Chevy as an unfinished project. It's been lots more work than I thought at first. In fact, I gave up on it for over a year too. But, I'm stubborn and am back working on it again. If I had it to do all over again, I would probably pick the 4.9 Caddy with matching 4 speed auto swap. That is a more "natural" swap for the Fiero if you want a V8. It fits better and is closer to the original weight. The 4.9 Caddy is what the Fiero should of had for a optional hipo engine.

About the Fiero drive train using a Chevy small block. Contrary to what Archie might claim, the tranny and axles are the week link. Archie is in the business of selling small block Chevy conversion kits. Of course he's going to claim the Fiero drivetrain will hold up ok. Of course he will defend and give demostrations to "prove" his point. Duh! Go to a used car lot and see if the salesman dwells on the bad points of a car you're looking at. Of course not.

To be fair, if used sensibly, the Fiero drive train will hold up ok. But don't expect it to last if you abuse it. The previous owner of my Fiero was an ex-stock car racer and he tore up the first tranny after swapping in the V8. Tina is on her 4th tranny. Several others have went through various drive train parts. Don't get me wrong, if you drive ANY car hard, you will have breakage. Anyway, those are my own personal opinions after owning a V8 Fiero for 3 years. A V8 Fiero is like a child, they have faults, but you love them anyway.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: GM says that the total load carring capacity is only 400 pounds. To put this into English, That is total weight of the passengers, luggage and any modifications done to the car. If one exceeds the design specifications willfully, and causes injury to another person that will open up a can of worms

That load carrying capacity is based on the stock spring weights. It is for luggage and passengers or the car as it is equipped. Car manufacturers do over-enginner the frames of their cars and continually make improvements to their design to try to get them lighter/stronger. But they WILL make changes to accomodate different power trains and weights in the various "option packages" they offer.

Take the 3rd Gen. Camaro for example. There will be different springs for the 4 cyl. V6 and V8, plus a couple of "performance" suspension options, and perhaps even a "trailer towing" suspension option. The frame will still be the same, with perhaps bigger brakes or stronger axles. That's why when swapping a V8 in, they have to change other components as well (springs, trans, maybe axles, etc.) to go with it.

As far as putting a V8 in a Fiero, at MINIMUM, the springs and suspension have to be upgraded for the extra weight and power to keep the car safe. This would bring the load carrying capacity back up (if not increase it). Bigger brakes are optional.

I'm sure GM would have done nothing more themselves.

Will a V8 or pumped up V6 break drivtrain parts? It certainly can.

The Fiero stock transmissions aren't built for huge motors.

The Th125 and 4T60 are both rated for around 200 fp torque at the input shaft. (That's crank pus the TC multiplier.) This is why Cadilac had to have a specially built up 4T60 for the Alante in the early 90's.

The manual transmissions have similar limits.

Can the weight cause suspension or braking issues? Yup... Hence the reason for many parralled discussions on those issues.

There are allot of things that can be done with either. Some are better than others but there are plenty of options.

Does a V8 cause legal problems? It may in some cases but not how you might think. The larger problem may be for the vehicle owner involving thier insurance. In some places the engine size is used to determine insurance rates. Failing to correctly report engine size could be insurance fraud which carries very stiff penalties.

In terms of an actual wreck... In most cases driver behavior is the larger issue but vehicle modifications, especially illegal ones (Like certain brake alterations), could be used to deny insurance coverage or as evidence in criminal actions.

The installation of the V8 or a bigger V6 is usually a non issue. DWI, speeding, cell phone use, and otherthings are far more likely to get things in the courts than the engine.

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11-Sept-01, The day the world as we knew it ended.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: It has been fun reading all the experts advice on Engine Swaps and such... Thanks to all for reading this, and if you must answer negatively, or flame, please be ready to back it up with Engineering Facts, because I would like to have this engine ( cast iron block, aluminum heads) still be a viable option for me. Rest assured that I will listen to everything that one has to add. TIA, PC

What a load of bull!! I'm not resting "assured" at all that you will listen to anything anyone has to say. I think you just wanted to try to start another "Flame Archie" thread. Personally, I hope you ignore all the info you have been given by the "experts" and go be unhappy with something else. Meanwhile, I plan to continue enjoying the hell out of my SBC powered Fiero. I have the weight tickets on my car, and the additional weight is 100lbs (345hp ZZ3 SBC with Sanderson headers). Did I mention its a T-Top car witout any reinforcement. Suspension is substantially modified.
Car has been driven for 8 years now with the SBC - to and from work, around town, stop light racing, I-95 racing, and running with a bunch of other Fiero Fanatics in the hills of North Carolina and Georgia - several of whom are engineers. I've also owned a 3800 with the 4T60E transaxle and that package added even more weight to the Fiero. By the way, I'm not an engineer, I'm a meteorologist, and I hope you stay with a totally stock Fiero and I hope it rains on your Fiero every time you get in it!

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Tom Corey
87 Green TTop GT 5Spd V8
88 Yellow TTop GT (At Ed Park's for the 4.9 Caddy Install)

quote Originally posted by Oreif: ......So if the Fiero chassis can only hold 400 lbs difference, What model Fiero are you talking about? Example: An 84 base coupe with 4-spd and no other options weighs in just under 2500 lbs, An 87 GT with all factory options and auto trans weighs just over 2800 lbs. Going by your 400lbs limit, If I were to convert an the coupe to the GT, I would need to weigh less than 100lbs just to be the driver......

Page 5-15 of the 1986 Pontiac owners manual under Vehicle loading. "Do not load your car beyond the weight shown under the heading "Vehicle Capacity Wt" on the Tire Placard. ... This weight would also include... and any other non factory installed options. The vehicle capacity weight tells you the design limits of the car, not just of the tires."

I appreciate all of your input, and there are no "wrong answers" here. Everyone has a choice that they can personally make, and that choice is "right" for them. My point was /is that this information was "glossed over" and anyone contemplating such a swap should have been told this up front by the originator of the "kit". So that they could make their "own" choice about the swap. And accepting the ramifications of their actions, what ever that might be. Thanks, PC

Ok fella, bad form to come on here and start blasting away at anything you don't like....

But I'll actually answer some of your questions, since it seems like you may be honestly seeking opinions (just doing so in an abrasive way.)

In the future, you may want to just simply ask questions, not get all huffy. It disultes your responces.

The SBC V8 swaps do add between 80-100lbs to the rear of our cars. This can't be the best thing since sliced bread, but consider that the Fiero TH-125c *also* adds 100lbs to our cars! (you v8 auto guys are screwed )

The Northstar on the other hand, (with the fiero tranny, no crappy caddy automatic here) is a 'zero weight gain' engine, is less torquey, more revy, than an SBC, and can make 450+hp on the stock bottom end. It is more expensive, and you're still largely on your own as far as kits go. I belive it supior to the SBC, for me and my needs.

As for liability, I am nearly trippleing the bhp output of my Fiero. I'm also upgrading a lot of other components that imho will need it. (spindles/hubs/bearings/axles. Coilover suspension with all-rod-ends, 225/40/18 305/30/18 Pzero rubber, etc.)

I'm making my own liability insurance, not relying on somebody else.

PS: If you really want to still do an SBC, a Donovan aluminum block and al heads will get you just about to 'zero weight gain.'

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: I am sorry that i said supposed...I realize the difficulty in what you are doing and am sure that you will have a fine vehicle when you are finished, ... sorry again...PC

------------------

Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. (2:13.138 at Sears Point) "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: Page 5-15 of the 1986 Pontiac owners manual under Vehicle loading. "Do not load your car beyond the weight shown under the heading "Vehicle Capacity Wt" on the Tire Placard. ... This weight would also include... and any other non factory installed options. The vehicle capacity weight tells you the design limits of the car, not just of the tires."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

I can't BELIEVE you referenced the owner's manual! Is there a page which tells you not to install a Supercharged 3800 V6 which wouldn't even hit the market until 6 years after the Fiero was canned?
That document was hardly written with heavy modifications in mind.

For crying out loud...

Decide what you want to do with your car, get under it, turn some wrenches and evaluate what YOU think it will handle, and do it.

no expert, or even novice experience, but if nothing else you can point to the fact that it's been done so many times. there haven't been enough negative stories to keep others (myself included) from wanting to try it too.

it could be pretzel logic but compare it to bees. they shouldn't fly but if you show it all the studies and it'll still fly away.

hey...maybe the fiero's a fluke of automotive nature.

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Phil T.

start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can.

quote Originally posted by Will: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!! ROTFLMAO!!!!! I can't BELIEVE you referenced the owner's manual! Is there a page which tells you not to install a Supercharged 3800 V6 which wouldn't even hit the market until 6 years after the Fiero was canned? That document was hardly written with heavy modifications in mind. For crying out loud... Decide what you want to do with your car, get under it, turn some wrenches and evaluate what YOU think it will handle, and do it.

.....

I been involved with hi-performance vehicles for about 50 years. If I'm the world would constantly worry about every minor or major change to are vehicles their would be no steet rods, hot rods or any other vehicle. You would not even change to a non-factory approved air-cleaners because you would be changing not specific to that vehicle. If weight capacity is a concern then go to a heavier spring rate. I like my 85GT V-6 2.8 just the way it is (stock). My other toy is a 23T-Bucket with a 350 CI Olds in it--- way over powered for a 1923 car plus engine weighs 3 times as much as the stock 4 cyl.---alf

quote Originally posted by alf: I been involved with hi-performance vehicles for about 50 years. If I'm the world would constantly worry about every minor or major change to are vehicles their would be no steet rods, hot rods or any other vehicle. You would not even change to a non-factory approved air-cleaners because you would be changing not specific to that vehicle. If weight capacity is a concern then go to a heavier spring rate. I like my 85GT V-6 2.8 just the way it is (stock). My other toy is a 23T-Bucket with a 350 CI Olds in it--- way over powered for a 1923 car plus engine weighs 3 times as much as the stock 4 cyl.---alf

Good point here..but it is apples and oranges.
What is the design limit of your 1923 T bucket car and is it full bodied or did you remove weight as you added a heavier engine?
And as to the people who have not practiced their comprehension skills, the excess Hp is only a problem with the drive train and nothing else. The point is that you cannot add much more weight than what the stock items weigh without taking weight off.. and Pontiac ( right or wrong it doesn't matter ) has stated that the design limit of this car is the weight of your car stock + the weight that is on the tire placard.... and not one pound more. If someone, with an engineering degree, that has subjected this car to tests and will stand behind his findings (the swap kit for street applications), you can then exceed what Pontiac stated 15 years yeas ago, and that person then takes on the liablity of any problems incurred, not you. As it now stands Archie is providing a way for the backyard mechanic to perform his swap. ( my beef is not with Archie , he provides a safer way of doing this swap, and has proven over and over that his kits work.)

I am just bringing to your attention that the weight of this swap is an issue, and the only facts that I can find is that the stock engine weighs 360 lbs and the cast iron SBC weighs 575 lbs. ..fuzzy math will never change this fact. TIA PC

[This message has been edited by SanBerdueFiero (edited 08-12-2002).]

Hmm, lets see, an aluminum head SBC weighs about 90lbs more than the 2.8 V6. The TH125c weighs about 90lbs more than the Getrag M282. So, put an aluminum head SBC on a Getrag M282, and switch the rear springs to those that come with automatics. It should be as perfectly balanced as a factory V6 auto.

This is me, resting assured.

EdsB52??? is that you???

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: The point is that you cannot add much more weight than what the stock items weigh without taking weight off.. and Pontiac ( right or wrong it doesn't matter ) has stated that the design limit of this car is the weight of your car stock + the weight that is on the tire placard.... and not one pound more.

I think you're taking these 'recommended' numbers far too seriously. (I'm not an enginner, or anything special beyond enthusiast, so this is just the rule of thumb I go by..) Car companies like to protect their own asses -- a lot. When providing numbers to consumers, they are much more likely to suggest values far 'on the safe side' (when safety is an issue, at least, not so much when we're talking about power). The effect would be to keep people, and consequently themselves, out of trouble. Of all the drivers on the road, how many do you think follow their owner's manuals to the "T?" How many change their oil, replace their filters, rotate their tires, etc.. exactly when they're supposed to? And how many do you know that rigg up the scales every time they load thier car before departing?

Right.

There is a margin of safety there, put in place because as we all know, there are far too many consumers who want a product with no maintanence -- who would rather just 'do,' than than to 'think' about it. It is my opinion that this margin of safety is purposely made much larger than need be, simply to protect the asses of all of those 'less than par' consumers, and consequently to protect the asses of the carmakers themselves.

No numbers, measurements, or quantitative anything... just qualitative observations. When you perform an action, you'd better be prepared to deal with the consequences, positive or not, of the reaction.

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- dosed

quote Originally posted by West Coast Fiero: hehe - you just got over-DOSED, :)

quote Originally posted by SanBerdueFiero: [B] Good point here..but it is apples and oranges. What is the design limit of your 1923 T bucket car and is it full bodied or did you remove weight as you added a heavier engine? And as to the people who have not practiced their comprehension skills, the excess Hp is only a problem with the drive train and nothing else. The point is that you cannot add much more weight than what the stock items weigh without taking weight off.. and Pontiac ( right or wrong it doesn't matter ) has stated that the design limit of this car is the weight of your car stock + the weight that is on the tire placard.... and not one pound more. If someone, with an engineering degree, that has subjected this car to tests and will stand behind his findings (the swap kit for street applications), you can then exceed what Pontiac stated 15 years yeas ago, and that person then takes on the liablity of any problems incurred, not you. As it now stands Archie is providing a way for the backyard mechanic to perform his swap. ( my beef is not with Archie , he provides a safer way of doing this swap, and has proven over and over that his kits work.) I am just bringing to your attention that the weight of this swap is an issue, and the only facts that I can find is that the stock engine weighs 360 lbs and the cast iron SBC weighs 575 lbs. ..fuzzy math will never change this fact. TIA PC[B]

Why are you challenging us to intellectual discussion while you yourself are taking a position of willful ignorance?

Look at the track record and decide for yourself. No one has ever torn their chassis apart before they broke their transmission.

What do you have against changing a spring rate to compensate for altered weight distribution? Will that overstress the chassis?

Go ahead and ignore the experimental evidence.