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DIY Air Conditioning Advice Needed by reinhart
Started on: 05-13-2002 08:21 PM
Replies: 9
Last post by: theogre on 05-14-2002 07:45 PM
reinhart
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Report this Post05-13-2002 08:21 PM Click Here to See the Profile for reinhartSend a Private Message to reinhartDirect Link to This Post
Hi, I have put together a pretty extensive collection of A/C equipment and would like some advice.

I have collected:
A/C vacuum pump
10 or so cans of R12 freon and connector hose
Leak sniffer device
A/C oil
A/C fill gauges with the dual entry system

First of all, I have a system that has been open to the air for several years.

1. How do I test the compressor before I start filling and waste freon?

2. How do I test for leaks without filling with freon? I have a leak sniffer but it needs a freon leak to work.

3. If I get both of these squared away, how do I go about filling everything including oil and how do I know when I've added enough freon?

4. Any other miscellaneous tips?

Thanks,
Bob

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Bob Reinhart
88GT^3 (Red 5sp, White auto, Yellow auto)

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Fierotech
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Report this Post05-13-2002 11:33 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FierotechClick Here to visit Fierotech's HomePageSend a Private Message to FierotechDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by reinhart:
Hi, I have put together a pretty extensive collection of A/C equipment and would like some advice.

I have collected:
A/C vacuum pump
10 or so cans of R12 freon and connector hose
Leak sniffer device
A/C oil
A/C fill gauges with the dual entry system

First of all, I have a system that has been open to the air for several years.

1. How do I test the compressor before I start filling and waste freon?

2. How do I test for leaks without filling with freon? I have a leak sniffer but it needs a freon leak to work.

3. If I get both of these squared away, how do I go about filling everything including oil and how do I know when I've added enough freon?

4. Any other miscellaneous tips?

Thanks,
Bob

Bob---
1. Try turning it. It should turn with some resistance. No resistance, or spots where it locks up, are a bad sign. Also, if you have the hoses off, put your thumbs over them while someone turns it. One port should build pressure, the other one vacuum.

2. About the only thing you can do is pressurize the system with nitrogen or compressed air, and see if it holds.

3. Ut oh. See #4.

4. Tip: R12 is selling for about $40 a can around here, and most people can't buy it. Sell your ten cans, take the resulting $400, buy a new compressor, and you should have enough cash left over to have someone charge it with 134A.

Not trying to be "unhelpful" on #3, but I'd be typing all night if I went thru the whole procedure for you, with enough detail I felt comfortable I wasn't doing more harm than good. I believe the service manual has pretty thorough writeups on A/C service.

Hope this helps...

Jeremy B.

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Formula88
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Report this Post05-14-2002 12:23 AM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
Jeremy's got the idea.

I use Dry Nitrogen to pressure test AC systems. Pump it up and see if it holds pressure over night. The Dry Nitrogen also has the benefit of absorbing moisture in the system, so when you evacuate again, it helps get all the moisture out.

How do you know when you've added enough oil/freon? Car AC systems are loaded by weight. I don't know the spec, but someone with a Helm's manual should be able to look it up for you - or you could call a dealer or AC repair shop and ask them. Simply add the "x" ounces of oil, then fill with "y" ounces of freon. Simple.

Since you have the gauges, I'd load the sytem, and then run it with the gauges attached and adjust the freon charge by either adding or removing freon until the Evaporator core temp was about 35-38*. Any cooler and you risk icing. Of course, you need an R-12 pressure/temperature chart to make sure you get the pressure right....

Don't forget, if you vent R-12 to the atmosphere, that's a Federal crime.

If you're still with me, you might want to take Jeremy's advice. Sell the R-12 and use the money to convert to 134a. You could pay someone to do it for what you could get for the freon.

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Report this Post05-14-2002 12:50 AM Click Here to See the Profile for afRaceRSend a Private Message to afRaceRDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by reinhart:
Hi, I have put together a pretty extensive collection of A/C equipment and would like some advice.

I have collected:
A/C vacuum pump
10 or so cans of R12 freon and connector hose
Leak sniffer device
A/C oil
A/C fill gauges with the dual entry system

First of all, I have a system that has been open to the air for several years.

1. How do I test the compressor before I start filling and waste freon?

Pretty much what reinhart said.

2. How do I test for leaks without filling with freon? I have a leak sniffer but it needs a freon leak to work.

I just put the pump on it for 30 minutes - no more. If it holds a vacuum....then no leaks. If its been open for awhile then you might want to go ahead and change some of the o-rings - like the ones on the compressor manifold. And definately change your receiver/drier. Check your orifice valve and make sure its not clogged.

3. If I get both of these squared away, how do I go about filling everything including oil and how do I know when I've added enough freon?

Oil is easy to fill if you have a vacuum on the system. Detemine how much the system needs and then stick the yellow line into the bottle of oil and it'll suck up the oil.
Freon, you can determine how much the system calls for and just figure how many cans - remember the can's are 12 oz, not a full pound.

4. Any other miscellaneous tips?

You won't need 10 can's of R-12 probably 4, I can't remember. I personally would sell the R-12 and either use Freeze-12 or R-134 like others have said.

Thanks,
Bob


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DonHager
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Report this Post05-14-2002 06:34 AM Click Here to See the Profile for DonHagerSend a Private Message to DonHagerDirect Link to This Post
Do not just change to R-134, by the GM conversion kit from Auto Zone or some other parts house. They cost about 45.00 bucks and have the proper O-rings and oil for the conversion to 134-A. Sell the R-12. On you car up front next to the evaporator there should be a tag that tells you how much refrigerant your system held new of R-12. Use this number for the R-134A but you will use ONLY 80-85 % as much because of R-134a's.
Here is a help page to look at. http://www.fierosails.com/fierosecrets.html
go down to the AC section and will help answr any other questions you may have.
PS: once converted any automotive shop can recharge without a large bite out of the wallet.

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FieroDon
86 SE
87 GT (factory blue)
88 GT

WWW.Fiero.us

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Formula88
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Report this Post05-14-2002 12:04 PM Click Here to See the Profile for Formula88Send a Private Message to Formula88Direct Link to This Post
FYI, using the vacuum pump to check for leaks isn't very reliable. You pull a vacuum, and you've got 14.7psi trying to get past the seals. The system runs under much higher pressure than that. For a reliable test, you need to pressurize with about 150psi of Dry Nitrogen or other inert gas.

You can use the vacuum test if you don't have any other means, but it won't find small leaks.

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reinhart
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Report this Post05-14-2002 03:15 PM Click Here to See the Profile for reinhartSend a Private Message to reinhartDirect Link to This Post
Hey guys thanks for the tips, especially FieroTech and Formula88.

I do have a service manual and have looked it over but it assumes one is trained in basic A/C knowledge.

Regarding the 134 conversion. It is a bad idea, in my opinion, due to the higher pressures. If you think R12 leaks the 134 is going to leak even more and it doesn't cool as efficiently. Due to the readily available supply of R12 in Mexico and elsewhere, getting it really isn't an issue for me here in California.

I have considered taking the car to have it done. But if it is like anything else I've had mechanics do on my babies, it will only get messed up. That's why I purchased all my own equipment. Once I figure it out, I can be sure the job is done correctly.

A few more questions:
1. At one point when I was changing some of the O-rings where the engine bay connects the lines on the left side and I torqued to the factory recommended settings and it did not seem very tight to me. Is it just my imagination or what would be a good torque setting for the line fitting bolts?

2. Do I need to do something with the condensor like throw it in the oven for a day to evaporate all the moisture that it absorbed from being exposed to the atmosphere or does this need to be replaced?

3. I heard there is a screen that one should check for debris. Where is this?

Thanks for the tips,
Bob

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ED's85GT
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Report this Post05-14-2002 04:38 PM Click Here to See the Profile for ED's85GTSend a Private Message to ED's85GTDirect Link to This Post
You say you have a system thats been open
for a few years? for starters your dryer needs replacing, A/C comp is highly questionable. with all of the dirt thats in the system now (hoses evaporator, accumulator
etc) your first "try" the comp... will die
I don't think that pulling vacuum will remove
all of the dirt that may be in your system.
as fierotech said I would sell the r-12
and buy most everything new and then try
R-134. when properly done R-134 is almost as good as r-12 (almost=keyword).
If you must use R-12 everything will have to
be flushed extremely well, i would use a new
comp... and a new dryer for reliability and
best system performance. don't forget the
orifice tube.
"my 2 cents"
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Fierotech
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Report this Post05-14-2002 07:32 PM Click Here to See the Profile for FierotechClick Here to visit Fierotech's HomePageSend a Private Message to FierotechDirect Link to This Post
 
quote
Originally posted by reinhart:
Hey guys thanks for the tips, especially FieroTech and Formula88.

You're very welcome.
I do have a service manual and have looked it over but it assumes one is trained in basic A/C knowledge.

Regarding the 134 conversion. It is a bad idea, in my opinion, due to the higher pressures. If you think R12 leaks the 134 is going to leak even more and it doesn't cool as efficiently. Due to the readily available supply of R12 in Mexico and elsewhere, getting it really isn't an issue for me here in California.

True/not entirely true. R134a's molecular structure is smaller than R12's, which means it takes smaller holes to leak thru, so a micro-porous (is THAT a word??) hose that holds R12 may leak 134a. However, there are new (well, new several years ago now) oils that are compatible with both refrigerants. The existing oil combined with the new oil actually serves quite well to "plug up" these micro-holes. Regarding higher pressures...that's not really the issue/problem. 134a isn't as efficient as R-12, so you don't get as much "cold" for the same amount of "pumping". However, as an ex A/C tech from Florida (read: THE state to stress-test A/C systems) I can honestly say that, while not all cars convert well, the Fiero does a reasonably good job with the conversion. Cars with marginally small evaporators and/or condensers usually suffer pretty bad when converted; we used to add extra condenser fans to a lot of cars to help. The Fiero has a good sized condenser, decent amount of airflow to it (away from it is another story, though...) and a large (for the cabin size) evaportator. High side pressures are generally within 10-20% higher with 134a...which is really not a big deal.


I have considered taking the car to have it done. But if it is like anything else I've had mechanics do on my babies, it will only get messed up. That's why I purchased all my own equipment. Once I figure it out, I can be sure the job is done correctly.

Honestly and truthfully, as long as you go to an honest-to-goodness A/C shop, not Midas or a general repair shop that happens to have a set of gauges, I would say you have a better chance of messing something up yourself than they do. No offense intended. Believe me, I generally advocate people doing ANYTHING they can to keep their cars out of mechanics' hands; I work on Fieros for a living, and seeing what comes out of "other" garages frankly gives me the willies sometimes. But, A/C is pretty specialized, and a well trained A/C tech can save you a lot of hassle.

A few more questions:
1. At one point when I was changing some of the O-rings where the engine bay connects the lines on the left side and I torqued to the factory recommended settings and it did not seem very tight to me. Is it just my imagination or what would be a good torque setting for the line fitting bolts?

That particular fitting is one I see "worked loose" a lot; as much as I like hearing that you're torquing everything per the manual, I'd say get that sucker nice and tight. Make sure they are lined up good. If they **** to the side as you're tightening them, they tend to cut the Orings as it clamps down. I know "nice and tight" probably isn't the answer you're looking for, but just use good judgement. It's a thin bolt.
EDIT: Thank you, big brother software, for "bleeping" out the word c0ck in the above paragraph...guess I should have said slipped...LOL...

2. Do I need to do something with the condensor like throw it in the oven for a day to evaporate all the moisture that it absorbed from being exposed to the atmosphere or does this need to be replaced?

I wouldn't throw it in the oven, unless you're single. (I know my wife gets a little worked up when there's car parts ANYWHERE in the kitchen...)Ed's85GT was pretty much on the mark; if the systems been open, it's probably a mess. Cleanliness is a big thing with A/C. Flush anything and everything you can (don't flush the line with the muffler or the evaporater, though; you'll never get all the flush out) and leave it on the pump for as long as humanly possible. I like to see a system that's been open sit on the pump for HOURS...even overnite if possible. Vacuum won't remove dirt at all, but it will pull the moisture out. And contrary to popular belief, it's not dry "as soon as it goes into vacuum"...it takes time. But probably less time than it would at 350 degrees on bake.


3. I heard there is a screen that one should check for debris. Where is this?


That's the orifice tube. Under the accumulator, there's a short rubber line crimped to a longer metal one, with a fitting at each end. It's in this tube.


Thanks for the tips,
Bob

No problem. I just hope it's helping. I know I'd probably be ticked if I was asking how to do something and everyone kept saying "take it somewhere else and let THEM do it", but, unfortunately, that IS the best advice I can give you. Well, next to this bit: Befriend an A/C tech, invite him over for beer and pizza one weekend.....

Jer
(sorry, I'm on the other side of the country, and don't drink beer. )

[This message has been edited by Fierotech (edited 05-14-2002).]

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theogre
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Report this Post05-14-2002 07:45 PM Click Here to See the Profile for theogreClick Here to visit theogre's HomePageSend a Private Message to theogreDirect Link to This Post
I don't have time to read all this, sorry...

Pulling a vac and being able to hold it with the valves closed is a good first test. If you can't do that then you know theres a good sized hole someplace.

Since the system was left open for so long, you really need the nitrogen pressure test. Odds are very high something weak will fail when it reaches operating pressures in the high side.

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11-Sept-01, The day the world as we knew it ended.

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