After 2 1/2 weeks of non-stop work I got my Northstar in the car and running w/ getrag.

I don't have the car here with me as I was foiled last minute by a VATS problem. We built an oscillator to trick the system, but didn't have the frequency exactly right. The engine would only start about 1 time in 10. Since I've had to return to FL, my father has built an adjustable oscillator and gotten the thing running well. The frequency window seems to be approx 46-54 Hz.

Technical details:
We fabbed a new front cradle cross member out of 2 x 3 rectangular tubing. We welded it in w/ approx 2" of free space between the rear face of it and the front face of the stock cross member. The stock Xmember except where the forward trans mount is bolted down was then cut away. The remainder of the stock Xmember was then braced against the new one. A GM generic polyurethane transmission mount was bolted down to teh top of the new Xmember. To secure it to the engine we used a lightly modified Cadillac forward engine mount bracket.

A entirely new bracket was fabbed to bolt on approx where the stock Cadillac rear mount bracket bolted. The new bracket went down to another poly trans mount bolted to a small plate welded to a flat place on the right side cradle rail immediately above the aft control arm pivot.
Trans mounts are stock rubber, for now. There's a fairly easy way to use another GM poly mount in the forward trans mount.

I will eventually be adding oil/water heat exchanger, partial flow oil filter, and pre-oiler, but for now I removed the oil cooler bypass valve from the stock oil filter adapter and capped off the cooler supply and return connections.

I used a '96+ left exhaust manifold on the left side (because it's what I had). For the right side we turned the outlet around on a '95 left manifold and bolted it in place. It dumps out RIGHT in front of the stock exhaust pass-under in the rear cradle rail.
The car has a make shift exhaust on it right now, but will eventually have a true dual exhaust with cats and supertrapps.

We used a Moroso inline filler neck on the coolant exit connection. We were able to find a standard app pre-formed hose from carquest which connected directly from the filler neck to the left coolant pipe. For the suction connection we had to use about 3 standard app hoses and a 16" length of Fiero coolant pipe to get the coolant from the right coolant pipe to the engine. We haven't looked at the entire carquest catalog yet, so there may be some standard app formed hoses which will allow a cleaner install.

I turned the fuel rail around to put its connections near the stock Fiero fuel connections. That required cutting some of the factory nylon tubing and replacing it with HP hose and a piece of steel tubing.

We played musical chairs will all the vacuum connections on the manifold, but everything should work correctly.

I ended up using the stock Fiero long shaft/short shaft axle arrangement because I @#$%^& up the rear exhaust manifold and it was just too close to the CV joint when using an intermediate shaft. Oh well. I have another manifold to modify.

I ran both shifter cables and the throttle cable through the select cable hole in the firewall. I then cut away the material between the shift and select cable holes and ran the wiring harness through now much larger hole.

The engine is located in the stock position, not moved to the left as some have done. The chassis side dogbone bracket and extra layer of metal on the right strut tower had to be cut away, but nothing had to be done to the strut tower itself.
The left face of the hood hinge bracket had to be cut away, but we were able to anchor a modified decklid hinge to the right face of the bracket. On the engine, some of the right dogbone bracket--a cast aluminum piece--has to be cut away to clear the battery, and a little more trimmed away to clear what's left of the hood hinge bracket.

Oh yeah... I haven't touched the trunk.

Oops. Totally forgot about the electronics:

The car is using a '95 Aurora calpak. It sets about 4 transmission codes, but none of them light the MIL.
The wiring is somewhat different betwen Northstar and Aurora. None of the important stuff is different, just some details. For instance, the pin for the oil level sensor in the Cadillac is used for the A/C low pressure switch in the Aurora, which doesn't have an oil level sensor.

Now, you can't tell us about this without pics!

Good job!

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Its never going to be finished...

Visit my website www.purplefiero.com for Show Dates and Fiero Stuff!

Yeah, good job. Where's the pictures?

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AWESOME Will! I knew you'd beat me

What about the CLUTCH?! What clutch are you using?

Impressive that you got it to fit withought a 2" move, I may have to look at how nessicary that is...

Can't wait to see PICS man!

Best!
Ben.

PS: Supertrapps?!?! Please no! Resonator/muffler tips (think ANSA), or just big cats!

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

I have pics, I just don't have them here in FL.

I forgot to mention that we turned the fuel pressure up to 53 psi to compensate for the difference in displacement between the N* and Aurora. The FPR adjustment screw is locktighted in place, but once broken loose works fine.

I also removed the throttle body heat tubes from the TB; they were also locktighted in place. They interfered with the shift cable bracket. We routed the shift cable over the cam cover to keep it out of the W/P drive. It's a fraction of an inch shorter than it needs to be. I think it will work fine with some trimming on the left engine side dogbone bracket, which bolts between the W/P and the TB.

Coooool, hope to see pics soon

I don't dispute the supertrapp's quality, I personally don't like their asthetic though.
But hey, it's YOUR car!

Hrm, I've been lookin for a source for high quality 304 stainless cats (rodney's is actually the only one I've found need an alternative to "Bubba's Really Good Cat."

Have you driven the car yet?!?

PS: Just found out that you can swap cams/springs/retainers on this motor with the heads still on.... 375+ bhp?

It'll only cost around $800 for the parts too. I'm going for the 139 grind, which is still 'sort of' mild that's the 375bhp grind. Alan has two more grinds that are even crazier!

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by Will: I don't recall the CenterForce part number right now, but I'll get it. StupidTrapps are awesome! They are very high quality, entirely stainless steel including all the hardware, and even came with anti-seize to use on the screws. I can run 6 discs or so during the week to keep it quiet and open them up to all 12 on the weekends. I'm going to be using Random Technology bullet 8100 series cats with 2.5" inlets/outlets when I get the final exhaust done.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

Clutch: Centerforce PN DF201502

It doesn't show up on their online catalog for some reason. I haven't heard stellar things about it, but we'll see.

As I'm in FL and the car's in VA, I haven't gotten to drive it yet. My dad drove it up and down the street yesterday.

After designing a toolset so that we could properly set the preload on the diff side bearings ourselves, and going to the trouble of setting said preload, it turns out the 3rd gear synchro is sketchy in the transmission we're using. Grrr...

Oh yeah, we're using the older style external slave clutch setup. I had to grind some off the cup where the clutch pushrod engages the throwout arm in order for it to clear the coolant crossover manifold.

Update:

Straightened out a cooling problem, which seems to have been a stuck thermostat, as it spontaneously fixed itself.

Owing to an unexpected function of the ECM, my car now has a valet switch similar in effect to that of ZR1 Corvettes.
We initially grounded the PN wire to avoid having EGR issues, because the interim exhaust doesn't have an EGR bung. Because the ECM thinks that the trans is in park or neutral, it must limit the engine's spark advance, because in this state the is "quite docile" as my father put it. From his description it's barely faster than a 2.8 powered Fiero.

However, when the PN wire is allowed to float (the ECM thinks the Auto trans is in gear) full timing advance, and thus full power, are both available. A hidden toggle switch on this wire gives me an effective valet mode.

The VSS is not yet connected to the ECM. To make the signals compatible, we're building a gizmo to multiply the frequency of the Fiero VSS signal by a factor of 6 and feed this signal to the Caddy ECM. Since the Fiero speedo is run directly by the VSS, and the ECM only needs to know that the vehicle is moving, accuracy is not really an issue, as long as it's close.
This should correct the problem of occasional stalling when the clutch is depressed with the trans in gear and the vehicle in motion.
It will also allow the Caddy cruise control to be used, once we run wires from the ECM to the Fiero cruise control stalk.

quote Originally posted by Will: Update: ....We initially grounded the PN wire to avoid having EGR issues, because the interim exhaust doesn't have an EGR bung. Because the ECM thinks that the trans is in park or neutral, it must limit the engine's spark advance...However, when the PN wire is allowed to float (the ECM thinks the Auto trans is in gear) full timing advance, and thus full power, are both available. A hidden toggle switch on this wire gives me an effective valet mode....

If you want to get around this, you can wire a relay off of the gear shift switch. Wire it so the relay either open or closed (depends on your application) when the shifter is in "P" or "N". This is how I wired by TPI/700r4 when I put it into my 68 Camaro. I needed it to control the idle speed when I shifted into gear and back.

Just a thought,

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Roy :D
Just another stock Blue 87 GT
Suncoast Fieros

JUST ADDED: YELLOW 1988 GT w/ T-Tops, 5-Speed, and Performance Sound.

quote Originally posted by mrfixit58: If you want to get around this, you can wire a relay off of the gear shift switch. Wire it so the relay either open or closed (depends on your application) when the shifter is in "P" or "N". This is how I wired by TPI/700r4 when I put it into my 68 Camaro. I needed it to control the idle speed when I shifted into gear and back. Just a thought,

I could do that if I were using a 4T80E, but I'm using a Getrag.
A possiblity I am considering is wiring the PN line to the clutch switch, so that the ECM thinks the trans is in P or N whenever the clutch is depressed. I could do that and the valet switch setup.
Why not use a 4L60E with a TPI?

Great Job! I would love to see it. Did you have different axles made for you? Are you going to be at any shows this year? I would love to talk. I should be in Florida with my Convertible Northstar. I hope to see you there with yours.

Chris Moore
ASE Master Auto Tech
Auto Instructor
1984 Fiero 350 Chevy FOR SALE
1986 GT Northstar Convertible
1987 GT Northstar in progress
1987 GT Northstar
1988 GT T-TOP 3.4 5-speed
1988 GT T-TOP stock 5-speed

Hi Chris, nice to see you on the Fourm again

I belive Will managed to shoehorn his N* in (he has an 86 car and cradle) withought moving the tranny mounts at all (stock location) unlike the 2" shift that most have done. I belive he's using stock axels.

Can't wait to see pics Will, every time I go and work on the car now I am getting goosebumps Can't wait to hear how it drives!

Best!
Ben.

PS: Either of you N* guys know where I could get a late model (96 or later I belive) complete intake/tb/injectors? I've got an early-model intake and my ECU won't work with it at all.

Best!
Ben.

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

Will, I had the same problem with several chips that I had. I used an Autodyne speedo corrector to change the signal to the ECM, but that didn't work. The caddy is looking for 20000 ppm while the Fiero outputs 4000. It would have been simpler if the caddy just ran everything. Another chip I had also had the P/N activated. That was a bear as I had to have a relay and logic circuit to ground the ECM pin whenever the engine was started and in gear. I think what the ECM was looking for was confirmation of transmission speed at a certain throttle position. Caddy did this to control emissions. They basically turn off the injectors during a coastdown to save fuel. Don't know what Aurora is doing but it may be similar. Several other GM cars are programmed this way.

That was way back in 98, but if I recall the engine would stall as soon as I started a coastdown from 30 mph or greater. You would think that with the clutch engaged and the engine turning over it would start up again, but not without fuel. Had to do an electric restart. All that is solved on my current chip.

Would you really let a Valet drive your car?

The engine is in the stock location.
I had to trim the left face of the right decklid hinge to clear the left cam cover, trim the cast aluminum accessory bracket on the front of the engine (supports alternator) to clear the battery, and remove the metal associated with the chassis end of the stock Fiero dogbone brace to clear the right cam cover.
I'm using the stock short/long axle setup for now. I was going to use an intermediate shaft setup, but screwed up the modified rear exhaust manifold such that the CV joint was too close to the manifold with the intermediate shaft.
The right axle shaft from a W-body is the right length for this operation, but requires CV joint swapping at both ends.

I thought all that was necessary to run a later engine on OBDI controls was the TB? Give Alan Johnson at CHRFab a call. He might be able to hook you up. He got us a couple of extra LH exhaust manifolds.

I don't recall the exact numbers right now, but a 6x frequency multiplier changes the Fiero VSS signal to one that is very close to the Caddy signal, in frequency anyway. Whether it actually works or not remains to be seen. I'm still running the speedo off the Fiero VSS signal, so I don't have any speedo problems. Since the Caddy ECM isn't running the speedo, it A) has to know the vehicle is moving for driveability issues like stalling & B) only know approximately how fast the vehicle is going so that the operating window for the cruise control is approximately correct.

There is a transmission input speed sensor used to detect TCC slippage. If that turns into a problem we'll probably just feed it the tach signal.

I know that GM engines turn off the injectors on coast-down for emissions reasons. My father's L99 280Z does it (Saginaw 4spd trans--we've used LT1 edit to reprogram it for manual duty), as does his '74 XJ6 Jaguar w/ TPI and 4L60E trans. The TPI is controlled by LT1 electronics, which disengage the TCC before turning off the injectors. Don't ask me why.

Unpleasant surprise:
we have more transmission codes than we expected, some of which light the MIL. Time to break out the resistors.

I think the question should be "Will I ever be at a place which has a valet?"

If I rcall, the stock ECM is looking for an rpm "range" at a certain speed from the VSS at a certain throttle angle to keep from throwing error codes. If the engine operates outside of these ranges it assumes a tranny fault, either a slipping gear, or wrong gear selection, set a code, and goes into torque management and depowers by rotating injector sequences.

I still don't see how you are going to get a stock chip to power a standard shift car without some kind of tranny signal.

Right, they are called the N/V ratios. RPM/MPH. Used to verify the TCC slip in 3rd and 4th gear (or any gear where the TCC is locked). It's a bit harder to verify trans slip with the N/V ratio since the TCC will throw the ratio's off. GM might have fingered out a way to do it, but it seems it would be tough.

For TCC unlocked situations they could still use some really wide windows for the gears.

Obviously if the VSS is the wrong PPM, the MPH will be wrong and so will the N/V ratio.

On a manual trans, the N/V can be used to directly determine which gear you are in.

[This message has been edited by terryk (edited 01-22-2002).]

Another update:

Finally got the check engine light off without the VSS hooked up. Current jerry rigging:
A relay to ground the PN line during cranking, but release when engine starts. The engine must crank in P/N and run in some other gear in order to not go into "stage II" torque reduction.
1500(?) ohm resistor across transmission temperature sensor lines
100 ohm resistors across shift A & B solenoid lines
4 ohm 40 watt resistor across pressure control solenoid lines. It's ceramic, and gets too hot to touch!

That is enough to turn off the MIL WITHOUT a VSS signal. When the VSS signal finally makes it to the ECM, all infernum will break loose. Then the computer will start comparing trans input shaft speed (missing) to VSS and engine RPM to detect TCC and trans slippage. It obviously won't recognize the Getrag gear ratios. It also looks for a very specific difference in RPM between engine and trans input when TCC disengaged to be sure that the TCC has, in fact, disengaged.

In short: wcapman, are your chip & computer still for sale? I have a buyer lined up...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-10-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-10-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-10-2002).]

This is a real interesting thread! I don't mean to sound ignorant or anything but is it possible to put a carbourator on the N* to bypass all the problems with the ecm? I would love to do this conversion someday but I'm not great with electrical. A 375hp N* sounds really tempting, and the best part is there is no weight gain as with a sbc.

Thanks
Levi

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86 GT 4 speed
85 SC 5 speed

Why in the world would I want to scrap a sequential electronic fuel injection system in favor of a calibrated gas leak?

It is possible. www.chrfab.com has manifolds

Initially, we thought that the engine was running properly, but was soft at low RPM because it was just a little cammed up.
After confering some more with my father about his continuing experience driving the car daily, we decided that the engine was not in fact soft at low RPM, but that it was operating in "stage I" torque reduction mode brought about by lack of traction control input.

By routing the delivered torque signal (an output of the ECM which normally goes to the traction contro unit) to the desired torque signal (an input to the ECM which normally comes from the traction control unit) we were able to get it to operate without TCS problems in first gear.
Dad described 1st gear as "ferocious". The engine went back into stage I torque reduction upon shifting to 2nd gear, however.

More testing is in the works.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-10-2002).]

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-10-2002).]

Why are there no pics yet?!
Must...........have...........pics...............!

[This message has been edited by My7Fieros (edited 02-11-2002).]

Aack, carbs cost horsepower (and they just ain't half as cool as FI IMHO.

It has been done though, check http://www.chrfab.com/ (they also make some cool aftermarket totally configurable ECMs that solve all your worries with one fell swoop. You've got to modify their program a bit with a laptop (REQUIRED) but it's fun

Best!
Ben.

quote Originally posted by crzyone: This is a real interesting thread! I don't mean to sound ignorant or anything but is it possible to put a carbourator on the N* to bypass all the problems with the ecm? I would love to do this conversion someday but I'm not great with electrical. A 375hp N* sounds really tempting, and the best part is there is no weight gain as with a sbc. Thanks Levi

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by artherd: 'ferocious is more like it! I hate to say I told-ya-so The car should be a beast, and it looks like you are getting there! When you're finally done, I hope you'll document up everything that needs changing to make the stock ECM work for us 5-speed-heads PS: I hear wcapman's 275hp/300lb N* car is about as fast as a stock Viper/Z06... Best! Ben.

I'm saddling myself up with coding projects here... but I think there's enough info in the FSM to use a programmable microchip to make a "4T80E impersonator" box. Such a thing would provide all the signals necessary to trick the ECM into thinking that it was connected to an auto trans. It would make the stock computer a plug-and-play arrangement with a manual transmission.

In the sub 4.0 0-60 thread you asked if the car "holds" 1st. Do you mean traction? Clutch?

Ben, you have to admit this engine would look pretty cool with a set of Webers mounted on it.

Wouldn't sound too bad either;were you thinking of,maybe,some 48IDAs?

Good to hear Will, I'm happy for you! It's exciting when you take that first drive isn't it?
PICS, I want pics!

Ben have you seen my car yet? How's he making out? I haven't heard from him in a long time. That could either be a good thing or a bad thing! Get him on the forum!

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Jay

I was thinking of 8 velocity horns, and individual throttle butterflies per cylinder, but all in aluminum billett with an injector

Best!
Ben.

PS: Will, I meant the tires Heh, a tranny emulator would be great. Just have to fool the motor into thinking it's in first gear ALL the time

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Ben Cannon
88 Formula, T-top, Metalic Red. "Every Man Dies, not every man really Lives"
88 Formula, Northstar, Silver, In-Progreess. -Mel Gibson, "Braveheart"

quote Originally posted by artherd: I was thinking of 8 velocity horns, and individual throttle butterflies per cylinder, but all in aluminum billett with an injector Best! Ben. PS: Will, I meant the tires Heh, a tranny emulator would be great. Just have to fool the motor into thinking it's in first gear ALL the time

Exactly. Why use Webers when you can have velocity stacks, per cylinder throttle bodies, and fuel injection?

He didn't mention anything about breaking traction, but he rolls into the throttle with good track technique. I don't doubt that if one mashed the gas from idle it would break the rears loose.

Actually, I was thinking of full functionality. There are probably some drawbacks to making the thing think the gear selector's in 1st all the time (eceonomy cruise, injector cutoff on overrun, etc.)