Ok, got a question. 88 Formula 5-speed. New clutch, pressure plate and throw out bearing installed this past weekend. Resurfaced the flywheel, too. Now I don't get disengagement. The hydraulics appear ok. We've replaced both the master and slave cylinders and bled the system till all the old fluid came out and we got nothing but clean, new fluid.

I'm reading on Ed Park's website (http://www.angelfire.com/on/fierofactory/start.html#clutch ) that the flywheel should never be resurfaced because of the clearance on the hydraulic clutch. Could this be the problem? Every clutch I've ever seen says you have to resurface the flywheel or the warranty is void. What the deal?

Please respond. Car is undriveable.

The Fiero clutch is not adjustable....so distance between flywheel and clutch is critical. You must either replace the flywheel.....not what I would do.....or shim it out to the correct distance. See a machine shop about this. You may have to find out the original thickness first, but I have used this method with no problems ever. I'm a GM tech with 25 years experience.

Phil Pettus

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GTDude's 86GT

I agree with Phil on this one -- the thing is, while resurfacing the flywheel is recommended, what was the thickness of the flywhel to start with? If it was borderline and they mill off .003, for example, then it may be too thin to work. In that case you would need to shim it by .003 to bering it back to operating range...... or, you could start with a new one, but, have it resurfaced too. Otherwise you are inviting clutch chatter and slippage.

[This message has been edited by tgowens (edited 12-17-2001).]

Think about it. You describe one condition and then focus on a situation that causes another symptom. Gotta go now. Review Ed Parks stuff again.
jp

quote Originally posted by L67Formula: Think about it. You describe one condition and then focus on a situation that causes another symptom. Gotta go now. Review Ed Parks stuff again. jp

I'm back. Maybe I didn't understand your problem. I thought you said you couldn't disengage. If that's the problem, why would a thicker flywheel correct the problem? You can't get the disc away from the one you have now. Over machining the flywheel would cause the opposite problem which would be inadequate engagement or slippage.
Two weeks ago I bought another Formula that had the same problem you have. We fixed it this past weekend without spending a dime or even jacking it up.
Disengagement is not caused by the flywheel thickness. Gotta go. Be back later.
jp

L67Formula is on the right track. If your clutch won't fully disengage, that's definately NOT a flywheel problem!!! It's going to be something in the hydraulic system, the actuator lever on the side of the tranny, or the forks inside the bell housing.

I had the same problem before in my 86 coupe (5-spd Isuzu) after replacing the clutch plate, disc, and t/o bearing. And while I was at it, I replaced the clutch master cyl, slave cyl, and actuator arm just for kicks. After getting all the new parts installed, the clutch wouldn't completely disengage.

I checked everything. But everything seemed OK. So just out of curiosity I shimmed the actuator rod (the rod between the slave cyl and actuator arm) by sticking a dime in the slave cyl. The clutch worked perfectly. I didn't want to be driving around with a dime in my slave cylinder, so I got a piece of 1/4" diameter steel bar stock from the hardware store and cut off a piece about 1/4" longer than the stock actuator arm, and installed that in my car. Worked perfectly.

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Tweaktech

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 12-17-2001).]

Don't be so sure. A thinner flywheel does what? Move the clutch away from the flywheel? No. The clutch is attached to the flywheel, remember. But it would move the throwout bearing (which is attached to the transmission) farther away from the clutch, so it might not be able to push in enough to get the clutch to release.

Intuition doesn't help much. You've gotta have a good understanding of the mechanics involved. But I'm glad for everyone's suggestions. Blacktree, thanks for your suggestion. Shimming the acutator rod may be the fix - rather than tearing into the bellhousing again.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Don't be so sure. A thinner flywheel does what? Move the clutch away from the flywheel? No. The clutch is attached to the flywheel, remember. But it would move the throwout bearing (which is attached to the transmission) farther away from the clutch, so it might not be able to push in enough to get the clutch to release. Intuition doesn't help much. You've gotta have a good understanding of the mechanics involved. But I'm glad for everyone's suggestions. Blacktree, thanks for your suggestion. Shimming the acutator rod may be the fix - rather than tearing into the bellhousing again.

It's not that complicated or expensive but OK I give up. Enjoy your new flywheel.
jp

quote Originally posted by L67Formula: It's not that complicated or expensive but OK I give up. Enjoy your new flywheel. jp

Thanks for the help. If you know something helpful, how about telling me instead of just saying it's not the flywheel and you gotta run? I don't mean do be disrespectful, but if you have time to post telling me what the problem isn't, why don't you tell me what you think the problem is.

On second thought. Don't bother. Thanks for your help, but I don't want to pull you away from whatever else is keeping you.

The problems's not the clutch itself - it grabs great.

The problem's not the distance between the clutch and the release bearing, because we put a nut into the cup where the end of the slave cylinder shaft sits on the clutch release arm, and it didn't change a thing.

The problems is that we can't get pressure to the slave cylinder. The pedal goes to the floor with no effort whatsoever. We bleed and bleed and keep getting air out, even though we bled over two pints through the system, and we watched all the old dirty fluid come out, and now clean, new fluid comes out the back.

We replaced the slave cylinder with a brand-new one, bled copiously, and nothing changed - no pressure; still getting air.

We replaced the master cylinder with a brand-new one, bled copiously, and nothing changed - no pressure; still getting air.

We replaced the original clutch hydraulic line from one we had left over from an '87 GT, bled copuoisly, and nothing changed - no pressure, still getting air.

The only other thing we can think of to try is to buy a brand-new hydraulic line, but we're finding it hard to believe that two lines from two different cars have the exact same defect in the exact same way, especially when the original line didn't exhibit any of these symptoms to begin with...

We're completely stumped on this one. Where the #@$% is the air getting into the system in such regular, steady, and copious amounts?

Thanks in advance for your help...

OK, here are a couple of other things to check........

1. when you replaced the master cylinder, did you mount the connecting rod in the right direction? The "eye" (that connects to the clutch pedal) needs to be on the top not the bottom.

2. when looking at the clutch and brake pedals from the side, the clutch should be higher than the brake pedal. It could be that you have a bent pedal (making clutch travel improper.

I can remember working on a car recently that had symptoms much like this, we did the very same things and bled, bled, bled -- almost 2 gallons of fluid later .........

it worked! (but, we changed the clutch pedal too)

Yes, enjoy your new flywheel...or shimmed flywheel ..whichever you prefer cause you need it. I have been a GM tech for 25 years and I know what I'm talking about. Some people just don't understand the mechanics behind the whole thing. Trust me on this one. You're gonna have to do it again. Sorry.

tgowens - I'm pretty sure that I put the new connecting rod eye pointing up (the same way the old one came off), but I'll doublecheck that... thanks.

I wondered about the bent clutch pedal situation, too... but don't '88's have the steel pedal? I didn't think they were prone to bending... but I'll be happy to check that, too.

When we're bleeding, we'll get a steady, solid stream of fluid out for the first 40% of the stroke, then 75-80% air bubbles for the next 40% of the stroke, then the last 20% of the stroke is steady fluid again. And it's like that every single time, whether it's done four times or forty times.

Just to doublecheck our bleed procedure, person A is seated in the driver's seat of the car, and person B is standing next the the rear fender on the driver's side of the car. B opens the bleed screw with a wrench and says "down", A slowly depresses the clutch pedal to the floor and replies "down" when it is at the bottom. A continues to hold the clutch pedal to the floor while B closes the bleed screw snugly with the wrench. When the bleed screw is closed, B says "up", and A allows the clutch pedal to come back up, replying "up" when the pedal is completely released. B opens bleed screw again and says "down", A depresses clutch pedal to floor and replies "down", etc. After five strokes, the clutch fluid is replenished in the master cylender, and bleeding commences for another five strokes.

Does anyone have a more foolproof bleeding method?

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GTDude - you may be a GM tech, but how would you explain the lack of a flywheel shim causing air leakage into the hydraulic line?

The problem isn't with the distance the release bearing is moving - the problem is that there is no hydraulic pressure to the slave cylinder. The release bearing isn't moving AT ALL because we can't figure out where the air is getting into the hydraulic system.

If the release bearing were moving, but not far enough to get a full release on the clutch, then I'd agree with you. But that is not the case here.

And yes, I *do* "understand the mechanics behind the whole thing". I don't have 25 years of experience, but I've done 4 of these clutch jobs, all on '88's, in the past year. And the remedies you're suggesting don't have anything to do with the actual problems being experienced.

The input of a 25-year GM tech would be greatly appreciated, but you're not helping if you don't read what the actual problems are before responding. The only reason I'm responding with a little bit of 'attitude' here is because your responses reek of it, yet you are plainly addressing a *different* problem - one that doesn't exist in this situation.

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Thank you both for your suggestions... we'll check the connecting rod eye and the clutch pedal ASAP.

Hey Formul88 and LZeitgeist,
I think L67Formula is hinting at the right thing. I helped him fix a very similar problem on his newly purchased '88 Formula last weekend. He won't come out and say it because he likes to be obtuse.

I strongly feel that you should look at the clutch pedal "standoff bracket" this is mentioned on the Ed Parks site and was the EXACT problem on L67's new Formula. Here is a quote directly from Ed Parks' site:
"Start at the begining, the pedal. It should be an inch higher then the brake. If not, then look for the standoff bracket (the squared U riveted to the pedal) to be bent. Use will bend it toward the center and toward the rear of the car (away from the clutch master cylinder). You need this inch for a full hydraulic push of fluid. This bracket can very often be bent back into shape with a large set of channel lock pliers. Much maligned pedal is seldom bent."

This bracket was poorly riveted on L67's Formula and it bent backwards and toward the center of the car. Look and see if the pedal is coming up to 1" above the brake. If it is not then remove the pedal and bend the "standoff bracket" foward and toward the left front tire. This probably won't make sense until you look at the way the bracket and the banjo fitting interact. I wish I had taken my digital camera last week end. Pictures would tell the whole tale. If this seems to be your problem please take some pictures for the forum. I have a feeling that this bent bracket is a common problem. As far as LZeitgeist's bubbles I can't say but Ed Parks does list an unconventional bleeding method on his site. Look under clutch problems.
Good luck.

Bikemanj - thank you for the excellent bleed info - we'll try that ASAP.

Just to complicate your choices . . .

On my '85 SE, I had the best bleeding success when I jacked-up the left rear of the car as high as possible. I think that helps to flush air from the long, kinky, nearly-horizontal hydraulic line.

As you know, the reservoir is tiny, compared to the amount of fluid you have to push through the lines. I let mine go dry too many times, which of course means starting over. Since I was working alone, I inverted the brake fluid container in the reservoir, to act as an automatic filler. It's messy, though.

Also: the pushrod on my new master cylinder was too short! Once I bled all the air out of the system, it still wouldn't disengage until I lengthened the pushrod.

for what it's worth, did you bench bleed the new master cylinder before installing it? i messed up master cylinder seals once by pushing in on the piston while the unit was dry. just a thought.

quote Originally posted by Bikemanj: Hey Formul88 and LZeitgeist, I think L67Formula is hinting at the right thing. I helped him fix a very similar problem on his newly purchased '88 Formula last weekend. He won't come out and say it because he likes to be obtuse.

Thanks for the info, Bikemanj! As for L67 being "obtuse", I'm not going to say what I think about that. I don't want to seem unappreciative of anyone's help, but L67's been absolutely NO help at all. All he's done is say he knows the problem, but won't tell us. As far as I'm concerned, people like that can take their help and stick it. If he actually wanted to help, he would have.

Again, thank you for your reply. It is appreciated.

I followed Archies bleeding method and it cures my shifting problem. One thing though, if I read the way you were bleeding right, you are only checking and refilling the master cylinder after 5 pumps of the clutch pedal. If you are I think that is way to many strokes. You should refill the master cylinder after every stroke. If you are bleeding on all 5 strokes you are sucking air in the system and that is why you are getting fluid, air and then fluid. The master cylinder doesn't hold enough fluid to support 5 strokes of the pedal so you are sucking in air and then trapping it with the added fluid.

johnt671 - after 5 strokes, the rubber seal is pulled down a bit into the reservoir, but the reservoir is still at least half full of fluid. We could go 7 or 8 strokes and still have fluid left in it... it's definitely not going dry.

Thanks for doublechecking me, though - at this point, we're pretty much stumped as to where the air is coming from...

Sounds like we may need to pull off the master cylinder and bench bleed it, then put it back on and use Ed Parks' gravity feed bleeding procedure. Worth a shot. I've heard lots of people having problems bleeding the clutch when there were no mechanical problems. Until we get a good throw on the slave pushrod, we won't be able to check anything else.

Yup, sounds like a plan...

No amount of bleeding will fix the problem if your clutch pedal standoff bracket is bent. It acts the same as having the pushrod too short. I reccomend checking the pedal before doing any messy bleeding.

quote Originally posted by Formula88: Sounds like we may need to pull off the master cylinder and bench bleed it, then put it back on and use Ed Parks' gravity feed bleeding procedure. Worth a shot. I've heard lots of people having problems bleeding the clutch when there were no mechanical problems. Until we get a good throw on the slave pushrod, we won't be able to check anything else.

BRAVO!!! Excellent decision based on sound evaluation and judgement. A rational, logical plan of action. I like it.
So....you're pissed at me? Take a number and get in line. I seem to have a true tallent a pissing people off. I have a short attention span but it's not my fault; I caught it from my kids. Also, I type slow. So shoot me.
Actually, I work 9 to 5 mon thru thurs and my choices were 1.make longer posts to you and keep my staff and patients waiting(and have them pissed) or 2. make short abrupt posts to you and have everyone pissed(staff and patients are usually pissed anyway). So, why not have everyone pissed at me?
OK? so, did I mean to offend you? NO. Am I upset that you're pissed? Not really. Do I love these little cars? Hell yes I do! Especially Formulas. It's about the car now,OK? Not about warm&fuzzy or hurt feelings. My associate, bikemanj, has all the social skills. I,m just a country boy from a hick town in a hick state.
When I entered this discussion you were concerned about having ruined your flywheel because it was resurfaced. Will you need a new one? Maybe you will. I don't think you can determine that yet. The dividing line in the equation is the rotational movement of the fork shaft. Assuming that all is ok with the proper pressure plate and t.o. bearing, if you are getting the full rotational movement of the fork shaft and you don't have disengagement, then you're gonna be taking it apart. If you don't have full rotational movement of the fork shaft then aren't you going to have to fix that eventually anyway? I'm out of page. will continue on another post. jp

[This message has been edited by L67Formula (edited 12-18-2001).]

Well, L67, it's not so much that I'm pissed, as I just don't have time for people who claim to have an answer, but don't offer it. I've gotten that IRL, too, and it can be quite infuriating.

The reason I didn't suspect bleeding being necessary was, during the swap at no time were any clutch hydraulics touched. According to LZeitgeist, we have air in the lines (it's his car, not mine, BTW) - so until we get that fixed, we can't go any further. Is air in the lines the problem? Did we get air in the lines changing stuff to try to fix the problem? Who knows. All we can do is go from here.

According to Ed Parks, you shouldn't machine the flywheel, because it can cause a no release problem. This is why I first suspected this. You do understand now how a thinner flywheel can cause a no release problem rather than a no grip, right? Not trying to flame, but your first reply suggested that machining the flywheel would cause the clutch to slip or not grip, rather than not release.

Everyone's help is appreciated, and while your intentions were good, your replies had no useful info - until your latest. Thanks to you and everyone for your input. But, please, don't tell me you know how to fix a problem and then not tell me what it is. That's just assinine.

Everyone feel better now...
We(me and L67) did machine a flywheel with no problems(New ram clutch installed after machining).
We did get a new (to us) Formula that would not disengage unless you pushed the pedal to the floor so hard that you compressed the backing behind the carpet(to get enough travel). I was so sure that the problem was inside the bellhousing that me and L67 talked about dropping the cradle. Then we read Ed Parks clutch problems posting on his web site. You (Formula88) referenced this same information in your origional posting but seemed to disregard the part about the pedal. L67 was saying (Obtusely ) that you should go back and reread this info. Ed says to start at the begining which is the pedal. I thought it was but we looked at the pedal anyway. Sure as sh*t the clutch pedal did not return to 1 inch above the brake pedal in this car but it did in the '88 Formula I daliy drive and in the '88 4cyl (isuzu) that L67 has. If LZeitgeist's clutch pedal does not return to 1 inch above the brake pedal with the master cylinder installed then bleeding is meaningless until you resolve this issue. This is the beginning. Bleeding is like step 3. The "standoff bracket" (god I wish I had a picture of the f@CK*ng thing) on L67's car was bent. It did not look like much but when we bent it back a little bit and reinstalled it, the clutch went from barely disengaging with the pedal through the carpet to disengaging near the very top. If LZeitgeist's pedal (bracket) is tweaked then he cannot get full stroke on his master cylinder. If you cannot get full stroke on the master then no amount of bleeding will give you full stroke on the slave cylinder. Ever. MRpbody posted that he got a master cylinder with a pushrod (banjo fitting, whatever) that was too short. This will create an identical situation and must be fixed before anything else will help. The pedal will still tell the story. tgowens' post included the pedal height suggestion and two gallons of fluid for bleeding. At the bottom he adds that they installed a new pedal. A new pedal is a great fix. Not because the old pedal is bent but because the new standoff bracket isn't. I ask that you or LZeitgeist check the clutch pedal's resting position and let us know what you find. Even if this is not your problem it WILL be the problem for someone else and all of this typing might help them. If it is the banjo fitting (pushrod, whatever) then I suggest asking Rodney Dickman for an adjustable banjo fitting. If Dickman dosent have anymore I might know were to get one that is not being used. I hope that this information is helpful and I swear that I will never work on a Fiero again without my digital camera. Picture worth 1000 words etc. Please keep us posted on your progress. If your problem is different then I would like to know about it for future reference.

Bikemanj

[This message has been edited by Bikemanj (edited 12-19-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Bikemanj (edited 12-19-2001).]

These are all definitely great ideas, and we will be applying all of them that we can, short of dropping the cradle again. That just ain't happening - I'll sell the car before I do that again.

The thing I wonder about is that as we're bleeding, we are getting air out with *every* stoke, the same way *every* time, whether we do it 4 times or forty times (making sure we replenish the fluid in the reservior so it never runs out). Every time, it's the 40% good fluid/40% mostly air/20% good fluid situation I described about. So we *are* successfully getting air *out* of the system... however, more *has* to be coming in from *somewhere*. How it's getting back in is what has us stumped.

I will check the pedal travel the next time I can get over to work on the car (probably Friday evening), because if there's a problem there, I'd like to correct it as well... but the problem isn't that we're getting a partial throw from the slave cylinder... it's that we're getting *no* throw from the slave cylinder because air is being pulled back into the system somewhere.

Thanks again, *everybody*, for their input... I apologize if I'm coming across badly, but this whole situation (and a couple others that have been dumped on me in Real Life as well that I'm being forced to accept and/or deal with right now in the middle of the holidays) has really got me frustrated and depressed right now... and the way I usually get rid of my frustration/depression (at least temporarily) is to hop in the Fiero, put on some CD's and go for a long drive... but while I have other vehicles I could borrow, using someone else's car would just underscore the problem I'm having with mine in the first place. *sigh*

I hate the holidays...

Thanks again, everybody.

ESPECIALLY FOR LZ! There was nothing in the original post about an air leak. Not possible to provide an accurate diagnosis without all the facts. Wouldn't you agree?

phil pettus

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GTDude's 86GT

GTDude, yes, I agree... and I apologize.

When I posted, I figured that from my wording in the post and from the 'Raleigh, NC' address shared in the left column by both Formula88 and me, people would figure out we were both working on the same car. I was mistaken.

As I mentioned, things are really rough for me right now, and I'm not at my best... possibly at my worst. However, there's no excuse for me to take out frustrations on my friends here. I apologize for that as well.

Thank you in advance for whatever assistance you may be willing to offer towards getting my car mobile again.

Is the master cylinder aluminum? They can crack and cause mystery air leaks.

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Timothy E. Smith
1986 SE V6
1984 Coupe

Replaced the MC with a brand-new one, no change in problem. Still getting air in, still exhibiting exact same symptoms when bleeding.

Replaced the SC with a brand-new one, no change in problem. Still getting air in, still exhibiting exact same symptoms when bleeding.

Replaced the hydraulic line with one left over from an '87 GT, no change in problem. Still same symptoms.

Original line was fine, as far as we know, but there was no change whatsoever after changing lines, so both lines would have to have the exact same defect in the exact same way, we think. Most likely, a new replacement line will be purchased, but we don't have much hope that it will change anything, since these syptoms didn't seem to be present when the old clutch was in the car, so all this seems to be a new phenomenon...

Yeah - we're definately starting the troubleshooting at square 1 and going down the list. It's the only way to be sure at this point. The reason we didn't do that in the first place is between the two of us, we've done 4 clutch swaps, and we've never had to touch the clutch hydraulics. Also, we didn't suspect the pedal or standoff being bent simply because the car was driving fine before the clutch swap (aside from the worn out clutch).

We were applying the adage, if it worked yesterday, and hasn't been changed, it should work today. That's why I was suspecting the flywheel. It was something we changed (by machining). In our previous jobs, we never bothered to machine the flywheel, but we wanted to make sure this one was done "right".

If we're getting air in the line, we've either got a mechanical problem with the clutch hydraulics, or our bleeding procedure is bad. We'll use Ed Parks gravity feed procedure to see if that helps.

If you are getting full stroke on the MC and Ed Parks bleeding method dosent work then consider reverse bleeding. It requires an extra tool to pump fluid backwards through the system but has helped me before.

Keep us posted

quote Originally posted by LZeitgeist: Does anyone have a more foolproof bleeding method?

Yes. Run to the nearest auto parts store and buy a MityVac one man brake bleeder vacuum pump. Spare your assistant the agonizing hours of boredom.

By the way, the vacuum pump will allow you to spend hours of quality time with your car's clutch hydraulics. I've been using it to bleed mine every other day for over a month now and I STILL have air. I'm gonna replace the slave to eliminate that sucker from the problem.

You are not the only one with ENDLESS supplies of AIR in your car!!!

Sly

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