ive got the chance to change my 4-spd in my 85 GT into an automatic is this a good way to go or no?

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slice the rice! it dosen't pay to drive jap - crap!

Your 4spd in your 85, if in good shape with the 4.10 gear is a great tranny. You want top performance, it ain't worth it to swap. But it you do alot of cruising in heavy traffic, an auto is certainly a help. I know it can be a major pain to do work like that too.

Twin Cities tells me, that to go to automatic required changing all the wiring harness in the dash, and lots of other stuff. I wanted to do it myself but they quoted me nearly $5,000 with new crate trans. Im living with the 4 speed till i find a nice auto for sale. Then Ill just build a new car on it.

I dont know whats involved in the swap - how much of a PITA it is

but I gotta say - I have been a diehard mannytranny guy for 26 years:

A. real sports cars ONLY have manual transmissions.

B. autos are for women and others that cant learn how to shift.

C. autos slip and waste precious HP - manuals give better performance.

D. if your starter or battery give out its easy to push start a mannytranny car all by yourself - with an auto its towtrucktime.

E. autos need adjustment and attention, and rebuilding sooner than a manual.

BUT after driving mostly sticks for the last 26 year (except for my late full size van) now that I have an
85 SE with a V6 auto - I really like it.

its great for zipping around town, running errands - I love the way the auto kicks down, first the lockout converter drops and the engine RPMs jump, then it kicks down to 2nd, and the RPMs jump more

its like driving around in a big GoKart, step on the gas - step on the brake - and steer.

I honestly have to say - I like it better. Im not looking for best performance or 1/4mile times, or exact control on a 80mph slide through a 30mph turn.

out of the 4 cars I have now, my 85SE V6/auto is the one I like to drive the most.

Switch from a 4 speed to an auto? Are you stoned?

Most people usually want to go the other way.

Stick with what you have or you'll be kicking yourself afterward.

A. Then why do they sell Corvettes with Automatics?

B. Manuals are for people who want to make work out of what the machine can do for them.

C. If a clutch isn't slipping and wasting HP what is it doing? Dragsters use autos, huge trucks use autos. . .

D. Keep your car in good shape and you don't need a jump.

E. Unless misadjusted or broken most autos run far longer without repair with many running the life of the car. The same can not be said about a clutch.

After having driven a combination of transmissions over the past 39 years I prefer automatics under all circumstances.

But the question is should he change a perfectly good manual for an auto, nope. Not without some overpowering reason.

I smell a fight... LOL

I switched my 4speed to an automatic.(switched over to a v6 also from a 4)

I found it pretty easy actually.

I ripped the tranny & axles out of a 86 celebrity and bolted it to the v6. Everything went completely painless.

I hooked up a seperate switch for the torque lock so I can lock my tranny for extra power during passing etc..

I don't regret switching over at all. Made my wife like the car more also since she found the fiero 4 speed too tricky to shift(cables were getting sticky)

Fieros are sports cars. Sports cars are made to be driven, not to just point and go.

Automatic Corvettes are an abomination.

Automatics belong in minivans

quote Originally posted by FieroBritney: ...Most people usually want to go the other way...

If your 4-speed is still in fairly good shape, you'd have no trouble swapping cars with one of the crowd who owns an automatic but longs for a manual. Post in "The Mall" if you're serious.

BTW, as abominable as automatics may be, some of the physically handicapped probably think they're great. They're also great for heavy, stop-and-go traffic.

I'll not take sides - I own at least one of each (manual & automatic) Fiero...

The 4-speed in the 85 V6 has a 3.65:1 final
drive not the 4:10.
If you're looking for speed the manual is
quicker the auto is for cruzin and old people

Better to have an auto for a daily driver but
if you're trying to build the car up stay
with the stick. The auto can be modified though.
I'll stay with the auto if I can find a lower
final drive for it but if not then i'm seriously considering changing to the 4:10
4-speed.

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Dave Gunsul
N.I.F.E. member
86 GT modified
85 SE daily driver

quote Originally posted by SteveJ: A. Then why do they sell Corvettes with Automatics? B. Manuals are for people who want to make work out of what the machine can do for them. C. If a clutch isn't slipping and wasting HP what is it doing? Dragsters use autos, huge trucks use autos. . . D. Keep your car in good shape and you don't need a jump. E. Unless misadjusted or broken most autos run far longer without repair with many running the life of the car. The same can not be said about a clutch. After having driven a combination of transmissions over the past 39 years I prefer automatics under all circumstances. But the question is should he change a perfectly good manual for an auto, nope. Not without some overpowering reason.

A. I asked myself the same question about two years ago when I was seriously looking for a good clean used Corvette for a descent price. I soon realized there was no such thing. But one question I had was the same as yours; why are virtually all Corvettes autofagets? The best I could come up with was that Chevrolet is not in the business of catering to people who buy cars 10-20 years later. They sell cars to guys who have money to buy them now. It might seem strange to think of an 85 Corvette worth $6,000 as a high-dollar car, but it once was. Today, the average age of a Corvette buyer is like 50. That fifty year old might have been a whacked-out manic when he was younger and drempt of buying a new car that was faster than sh!t, but by the time he could afford it he was old and lazy, hence, enter the automatic. I pisses me off to see doctors driving Corvettes and Accura NSX's like big fags, as they forgot why they once wanted to have a car like that. I've only been able to pick a couple of races with fast cars, most people want to own and drive them for what they can do, not what they actually will ever do. The bright side is that one day these pussies will sell their non-abused hot cars and we will be there to buy em up. The moral of this long ramble is that the customers of new Corvettes want Automatics.

B. No, manual shift vehicles are for people who want control of their vehicle.

C. Manual shift transmission clutches only slip when they are in poor repair, usually after 10 years of service. Automatic transmission clutches / torque converters slip virtually all the time by design. Dragsters use two speed autos, a far cry from what contemporary automatics do. Huge trucks use autos? Most tractor trailers use 13 speed manual shifters don't they? Many 3/4 and 1 ton trucks use automatics because the manufacturers used to be scared to put a big block in front of a manual tranny I believe.

D. In Phoenix, a battery can go anytime, regardless of shape, unless you fancy buying a new one every year.

E. True, most automatics do last longer, but if a repair is needed it will usually be more severe than doing a clutch.

You then wrote;

"After having driven a combination of transmissions over the past 39 years I prefer automatics under all circumstances."

I see you've never been road racing. If you ever need to downshift and set up for a given corner, do you want to wait for the 'thunk' whenever the tranny decides to downshift? What if this thunk is when you're half way through the corner? Not real good for tire adhesion. If you ever road raced motorcycles you would better understand, but the same dynamic exists w/cars. With a standard you generally have more gears, hence a more diverse selection from which to choose for your corner.

So there really is no 'better' transmission, or better transmission for 'all' circumstances, only correct applications. What perplexes me, and disgusts me a little, is that you can't buy a Cadillac with a 5 speed, so why can you buy a Fiero, Corvette, Z-28, etc with an automatic? The best I can figure is for the imposters. Guys who love to race don't act as imposters and buy Cadillacs with the expectation of having the car equipped to their wants, but Cadillac guys apparently do imposter themselves as sports car guys.

In fact, in much of Europe you have a hard time renting a car w/an automatic. We, as Americans have been socialized as lazy automatic car drivers. So don't try to apply common sense to it, a large political corporate component exists as well. Don't hate Jap-crap too much, as they are largely responsible for the evolution of the American auto. I believe cars like the Supra and 280Z had much to do with the maturation of American autos. I would not have considered buying American in the eighties, now I would buy a new American car.

Personal opinion aside a manual transmission is more efficient in transferring HP/torque than an automatic. This is one reason a car with a manual transmission is more fuel efficient than with an automatic transmission.

actually the auto will give you MORE torque off the line - the torque converter multiplies the torque at lower rmps, and you can rev the engine higher wihtout smoking the clutch.

someone mentioned putting an auto torque converter lockup switch in so he can lock it up when he wants to pass - you want it the other way - when your are crusing on the straight and level then lock it up, when you want to pass, unlock it to let the motor spin up to its higher RPMs - which is where it has more HP. Look at the HP vs RPM curve for the motor and this will make more sense.

I agree with everything you guys are saying - manual tranny is the best all around except for a few minor points - but I still like driving my V6 auto more - its more fun - more feeling of power - the machine is doing all the work and I can keep both hands on the wheel.

Ya, and dont forget Ferrari and Porsche offer Tiptronic Automatics. Even race Formula 1 with them. Arent they sports cars?

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It ain't a real sports car unless it has a manual transmission in my eyes.

If you want to switch to an automatic than you probably haven’t driven one yet. If you have than you’re on glue. Go out and drive an automatic fiero and I think you will without a doubt quickly change your mind.

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Isn't this why they sell blue suits and brown suits?

I haven't seen anyone yet say he should go to the trouble of changing to automatic - so we are agreed?

I had the pleasure of having two Fieros (86 GT 4spd and 87 GT Auto) and after driving hard the 86 for two years I got sick of it and changed it for the 87 GT. It’s hard to admit it but I like more the auto than the 4spd. All previous cars I had where manual also. Get in mind I’m only 23 years old and driving cars very hard its like my second job.

Like SaleenFiero said: "But if you do a lot of cruising in heavy traffic, an auto is certainly a help."

Its not only a help, its a must have. Also you must get in mind if you just want to cruise in your Fiero or race in it everyday. Everyday racing and no heavy traffic = manual tranny. Most of the day cruising and heavy traffic = automatic. Those are my thoughts. Forget about gas mileage since this is a Sport Car you’re going race once in awhile, it’s in our nature behind the wheel of a Fiero.

Anyway, from my personal experience both trannys are good it only depends on your driving needs. I found out that driving through a lot of hairpin curves and heavy traffic goes with an auto tranny.

Believe me living in Puerto Rico is getting both worlds (heavy traffic and hairpin curves) and it feels great!
PS: Anyways I hate heavy traffic but I like it when they look at my car when I’m in one. Also, you get to look at beautiful ladies.

vEnOm
87 Nitrous Project.

I say everyone should have one of each!

I have 2 Fiero's and my 81 Porsche 924. One Fiero is an auto 3 spd, other is an auto 4spd. The porsche is a 5 spd mannytranny. I do curise a hell of alot, and love the auto for that. However, I do steet race almost as much. I haven't driven (or owned) a stick for more then a month (don't even have plates on the new porsche yet) so I'm not by any means a race car driver with it yet, but I really don't like it as much for racing as the auto. I can (as anyone could) race an auto perfectly. I also enjoy the auto more for curves and banks, far more then the stick. If I need to downshift for a corner, I simply do so, drop the gearshift out of drive and into 2nd (or 3rd, depending on Fiero). I do like the manual for gas milage, and being able to easily light 'em up whenever I want to. When racing the Porsche I drop at 3K RPM and it squeels, but not spins much. Drop into 2nd at 5.2K RPM and it chirps into 2nd. Can't light up 3rd unless I rev past redline. I enjoy driving the manual, but the auto is so much more convient for my habbits. Now, If I do indeed buy an LT4 and drop into my 87GT, its going to be 5 spd. all the way! No question about it.

It certified that the 360 modena's 6 speed tiptronic or whatever its called is just as fast or faster than the 6 speed. Can't say the same for porsche (even though the 911 turbo's is close), or the nsx auto which totally bites, but Ferarri seems to know how to do it right. They are realzing that if you want 3 second 0-60's you need sometime capable of shifting fast enough. Hell, the new F60 coming out IS NOT EVEN getting a stick, its faster without one. Rumors say the new Viper will have one soon enough to, its seeable, Dodge will sell out soon enough.
I'd kill to have a tip shifter in my car.

exactly Saleen. Id bet no one here can just move the shift lever thru 4 gears using the clutch pedal and the car sitting still in 4 seconds. well maybe another car, but Fiero has too sloppy a shifter I think, its going to jam up between gears.

[This message has been edited by rogergarrison (edited 06-23-2001).]

Wether or not to switch depends on a huge number of things but mainly what you are going to do with the car.

I've driven stick and auto.... in anyplace with heavy traffic I'll take an auto any day.

Someone above said many autos last the life of the car.... Actually most do. I've rarely seen clutches last more than 3-5 years. Even less in heavy stop and go driving. Any usually it's not the friction material that quits in stop/go.... it's the spring(s) in the fraggin pressure plate breaking.

I got a good laugh out of reading parts of this thread... some people need to learn how modern automatics work. The biggest items...

1. Torque converters Do Not slip all the time Unless the TCC lockup controls are failed. The truth is the TC is locked most of the time the trany is in high gear.

2. The clutch packs/bands Do Not slip unless the transmission is changing gears. They simply would not last if they slipped all the time. You'd burn out a tranny every few months like that.

3. Automatics do have higher rotating mass than stick. This does eat some HP/Fuel. The bigger diferance is 5+ speeds are Over Driven and TH125 is 1:1 in high but so are most 3 and 4 speed stick.

4. Manual Locking the TC Does Not increase power through an automatic. It reduces it in most cases. The unlocked torque converted actually Multiplies engine torque. (Why to you thing Drag cars use them even when the rest of the transmission is configured for manual shifting.) In fact, if you punch an auto with locking torque while the car is in high gear, the ECM unlocks the TC almost imediatly so that you can make use of the multiplier effect.

auto's aren't sports cars ??
ever hear off jim hall and his gm backed back door team with the car named after a bush
but anyway it ain't a sports car enless
the rain hits you head gt's have tops

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Question wonder and be wierd

[This message has been edited by ray b (edited 06-24-2001).]

To switch a transmission in a Fiero is pretty extreme. The cost of the switch would equal about half the value or more of the entire car. But to debate the virtues of both types of trannies is worthwhile.

I agree, a clutch in traffic is a a sob, but worth the trade-off for me. I agree, most auto trannies last the life of the car, even though most are neglected. As far as the clutch springs breaking, what I've noticed is the material (asbestos) on the clutch faces wearing so the springs aren't as loaded, hence don't have the same force against the clutch disc/flywheel and lose traction and spin causing a quick demise of the whole assembly.

1. I realize stock OEM TC's only slip up to about 1,000, maybe 1,200 RPM before they lock up. Aftermarket stall converters slip until 2,500-4,500 RPM, or more depending upon how you purchase them. And OEM converters probably slip a negligible amount even at highway speeds. Stall converters probably slip a measureable amount at highway speeds, especially the 4,500 variety.

2. I agree, the auto. clutches and bands don't slip while in gear.

3. I'm not going to defend 3 or 4 speed transmissions, auto or stick, that's why I gave one of the boat anchors away last weekend and may give another to a guy in Canada if we can figure some descent transportation. The idea behind many gears is to enhance road racers. If you are about to dive into a corner and are at too high a gear, you downshift into the lower gear, which should be incrementally lower as opposed to drastically. This is evidenced by road race bikes. Most big bore (1,000cc and more) are 5 speeds and 750's and below typically 6 speed sequential gearboxes. There is a big difference in controllability when you dive into a corner and drop 1,500 rpm (out of a 13,000 potential) instead of 2,500.

4. I agree with your contention about autos and rotating mass/torque multiplier effect. The idea is to get the engine into its torque/power band to utilize the best engine performance/output possible.

To conclude, I will reitterate; 'there is no best transmission for all and every occassion, only better applications for given tasks.' The best, most reliable process in which we can see which transmissions work best with which applications is to observe how proffessional motorsports use each transmission. The only motorsport I know of that utliizes an automatic is drag racing, and I agree, it would be futile to use a stick with drag racing, as the time lost between shifts (even with an air shifter) and the fact that the tires would have to spin in order to get the engine into its power band would grossly increase 1/4 mile times. If you guys have ever road raced you would realize that smooth clutch actuation determines if you win or crash. Trying to downshift with an automatic would be like pulling in the clutch, downshifting, and letting the clutch snap back. The rear end would get loose, and if in a corner, go all over the place. With equal drivers driving like cars (with the independent variable being the tranny), the automatic would probably win most times in a striaght line, while the stick would invariably win by a fair margin in a road course.

I liken driving a car, any car with an auto transmission to having a big sponge between the engine and wheels. The power will translate to the wheels eventually, but will be somewhat unpredictable and rarely totally controllable when often accelerations/decelerations are performed. Are automatics easier to drive? Certainly, they require less attention and deliver smoother, more consistent power to the wheels upon aceleration. But when it comes to downshifting for extreme cornering, an automatic renders itself dangerous if attempting to keep up with a like vehicle that has a stick and a competent driver.

not to change topic, but someone meantioned that they had both a 3 speed and a 4 speed automatic?!?

I was under the impression that the Fiero only had the 3 speed auto - can someone expand on this?!?

as for perference, they all have their good points and bad points, auto for speed of shifting and convience, standard for milage and control over the shifts...bottom line - the Fiero is a car that is plain fun to drive no matter what tranny you got (sometimes I like the auto, and other times the manual).

Tim

Fiero came stock with the TH125 3 speed automatic. Some people have converted to AOD transmissions. Just which AOD depends on how stock the rest of the car is.

TH 125 and it's AOD relative don't slip the TC at all in high gear over 35 as long as speed is pretty constant. The ECM controlled TC clutch prohibits it. Once the TC is locked, not only is the slip gone so is the biggest heat generator. Some newer automatics lock up the TC every chance they get, Even in lower gears, mainly in order to increase fuel mileage but also to kill heat.

You'll never hear me say there is a perfect tranny for all uses. As I said above, tranny choice depends on car use...

I'd move to the AOD if I was still driving the highway miles I used to. Now I'm only running about 30 miles a day to/from work and a good chunk of it is short runs and stops. (The highway is shorter, but traffic on the highway makes it a longer trip. so I take a back way. slower speeds but at least I keep moving...) Now I'm only using about 3/4 a tank a week instead of one a day at least.

I am the one I would imagin your talking about who said they had both the 3 and 4 spd auto's. I bought my 86GT on 4/27/99, I'm the 4th owner. The last owner neglected it, but at least he kept it in a grage. The 2nd owner was the person who swapped the 4spd into it. I believe, what I was told, is it is a 440T4. I recently dropped my 3.4 Camaro engine in there, and matted it to the 4spd auto. But yeah, Fiero's only came stock with 3 spd TH 125 tranny's.

what I said in case I was misunderstood, is the auto clutch pac DOES slip during gear changes, thats how it works, and that making it shift faster/quicker with a shift kit would make them slip less total time, therefore they would last longer.