L36 / 4T60-E swap begins....
Topic started by: Darth Fiero, Date: 07-23-2004 06:44 PM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Archive-000001/HTML/20050119-2-053505.html


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #1, 07-23-2004 06:44 PM
      It is finally time to get started on the woman's car, she was so happy to see it get rolled into the garage today. She has a 1985 2m6 SE that has a 2.8 and 125-C in it now but the motor knocks. I have the 1997 3800 Series II n/a (L36) engine left over from my Fiero when I did the turbo upgrade and this is what she wanted. My friend just rebuilt a 4T60-E with 3.06 gears a couple of months ago for me so this is the tranny we will be using. I am expecting mid to high 14's in the 1/4 mile and 35 mpg out of it when it is complete. Unlike my personal car, I plan to spend more attention to detail on this swap as I would like it to be as close to show quality as possible without breaking the bank. Unforetuneately we will have to use the L36's ugly plastic upper intake plenum for now until I can find another all-aluminum Camaro/Firebird intake that we can paint up nice. So far this afternoon I removed some of the wiring and am prepping the motor/trans/cradle to be pulled from the car.

Like I said this motor is junk BUT the 125-C that is attached to it is in good condition with functional TCC. The build code (85-CD) returns saying this trans has a 3.33 final drive. Anyone looking for a 3.33 125-C trans?



The Adjuster MSG #2, 07-24-2004 05:22 AM
      Yippie!!! Not that I mind money making projects around here, but I've been put on the back burner for a long time and I can't wait to have my car done! Darth doesn't want me to have a turbo charged car and for a very good reason, every time I drive his I get that little green monster that everyone has and it comes out in full force and well, I would get into trouble on a very regular basis. So the next best thing is a sporty car with great gas milage especially since I have to drive to the clinic every day which is across state lines for school. Another great aspect is since I live with him and cook for him, I get a great discount on labor!!! I look forward to this car being at the Heartland show Aug 21!!!

nitro (kyle@2bluesc.com) MSG #3, 07-24-2004 10:42 AM
      Can't wait to see how it comes out! I take it you are going OBD-I again?



Mr. Pat (patrickspratt@live.com) MSG #4, 07-24-2004 03:37 PM
      Its about bloody time!!! Congrats, should be a little eye popper!!

dizmon_85GT (disbennett1@gmail.com) MSG #5, 07-25-2004 10:19 AM
      Ryan, I'm sure that will be one first class ride when you're done. I enjoyed my visit with you and the discussion about my future install. I was impressed by your knowlege and expertise about the 3800 motor. I feel very confident that you will do a very professional install and attention to detail when my turn comes around. Keep in touch.
dizmon_85GT Pete Disbennett

[This message has been edited by dizmon_85GT (edited 07-25-2004).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #6, 07-25-2004 02:34 PM
      Thanks for the props everyone, and Mr. Pat, yea I know its about time I am sick of this thing taking up valuable driveway space!

Anyway, I got the engine/trans/cradle pulled yesterday and completely disassembled the stock 2.8L and got the transmission off of it. Here are some pics:


Today I have a couple if different directions I can take. The cradle needs to be cleaned, I need to replace the battery tray in this car, and I need to work on my custom serpentine setup for the 3800. Yes, it is going to be OBDI again frankly because I think it is just so much easier not having to find a place for that bulky under-hood OBDII computer nor having to mess with all that extra OBDII wiring BS.


Scott-Wa (smcelhiney@comcast.net) MSG #7, 07-26-2004 12:24 AM
      So you don't think it would be easier to just use everything from the donor car and leave it stock? Converting to OBD1 when you are already using the complete engine and transmission seems like the harder route. I'll find out once I get going on mine...

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #8, 07-26-2004 01:46 AM
      Well, I don't have a complete harness nor an OBDII computer, plus I am using a 4T60-E which means that narrows down my choices of OBDII computers (as far as I know only the 96-97 3800 n/a engines were available with the 4T60-E). But besides all that I still have to do wiring which means no matter what there is a lot of work involved, regardless of what computer or transmission you decide to use. In my case, I will be starting with the stock 2.8 harness and adding wiring for the transmission and SFI amoung other things. I believe this way is less work and allows me more options of how I want to route the wiring and where I want to put things like the EVAP solenoid.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-26-2004).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #9, 07-26-2004 01:50 AM
      UPDATE

Got the cradle cleaned up today as well as attended to some rust that was just starting in the engine compartment. I also replaced the battery tray and painted the transmission. Tomorrow my goal is to get the engine mounted to the trans, then onto the cradle and then I can work on the serpentine assy belt drive.

The Adjuster MSG #10, 07-26-2004 08:17 AM
      Mr. Pat, yep it's about time this project gets underway...it's been sitting since last June when we bought it with a blown motor. But since it got shoved aside for so long (other projects like yours seemed to keep getting in the way of mine) the tranny we had for it got used on another car and then we had to get another built by our very busy friend (Darth could do it but this guy can do it in his sleep) and then we were able to wait and get the hookups and such so the swap in general will be very economical. I'm also really excited about my gas mileage since Darth has been driving my olds, the gas gauge goes down at an alarming rate I don't think I will have the problem of Darth driving this car so much...the interior was so nice I bought some seat covers to keep them new-looking and well they have butterflies embroidered into them and he told me he wouldn't be seen dead in it while they are on! Darn the bad luck! Well we have a wedding to leave for Thursday night so I'm not sure how much Darth will be able to do between now and then but I'm sure a few pics will be up, if I know him there will be more than expected done before we go!

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #11, 07-27-2004 01:56 AM
      Painted the cradle today so I have to wait for it to cure before I can mount the powertrain to it. Meanwhile, I got the engine and trans bolted together and started putting the exhaust manifolds on amoung other things.


I have 5 different alternators laying around that I am playing with to see if there is any way of rerouting the serpentine setup without having to buy expensive custom brackets (I would rather make my own).

I would like to share with all of you what I have been using for starters on my swaps. Most 97-up FWD GM cars use a gear reduction, permanent magnet type starter like the top one in the following picture:

The bottom starter in the picture is the one that came off the stock 2.8. As you can see the newer style is significanty smaller than the stock 2.8 unit. The good news is that GM used these gear reduction type starters on just about everything 97-up with exception of the NorthStar, Aurora V8, and Quad-4 engines. Even some S-10's with the 2200 (2.2L) engine had this same starter and they will all directly bolt up to the stock Fiero 2.8L or 2.5L if you are looking to save a little weight and make it easier to swap out the starter.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-27-2004).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #12, 07-29-2004 01:04 AM
      The serpentine setup is finished. I had an alternator that looked to be off a 94 S-10 which bolted to the rear head and I only had to make two small brackets to tie the rest of it in to the engine. I bought two ribbed pulleys, one to replace the tensioner and one to use as an idler and put them on.

Here is the alternator I used. Like I said before, the alternator bolts directly to the head, then the bottom bolt gets bolted to the bracket that bolts the engine and trans together, then I ran a tie-rod from the back of the alternator to the block as well. With 3 mounting points it is not going anywhere.

I also got the engine mounted to the cradle but ran out of welding wire right as I was fabbing up the last mount bracket.

Thats probably all that I will get done I have to go out of town to a wedding thursday so it will be next week before I get back on this project.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-29-2004).]

The Adjuster MSG #13, 07-29-2004 09:04 AM
      I'm really excited how it's finally coming together! Next week we should both have some more time to devote to this project, I'm looking foreward to getting my hands dirty by doing some work on cosmetic issues and being the overall gopher when I'm not in school or the clinic.

SOULCRUSHER (soulcrusher3800@aol.com) MSG #14, 07-29-2004 08:53 PM
      Hey I had one of these! Same trans too. I only could manage 14.8-15.2's @92mph with it. But that was without your PCM expertise. It did run 13.27@105mph with a 100shot of NOS though. I have a 3.33 gear set out of my old trans if you are interested. The problem with mine was that is was a SLUG off the line. Could only manage 2.1-2.2 60's. But this isn't a drag racer, it is a perfect cruising and commuter motor!



Stinkin_V8 MSG #15, 07-30-2004 01:01 PM
      I'm watching this very closely, I'm in the middle of putting a 3800/4T60E into my wife's Fiero. Darth does beautifully tidy installs, I only hope mine works out half as good as this one.

Darth, I believe you've covered axles in your previous posts - Manual Fiero and Pontiac 6000 is your weapon of choice, right? Have you ever tried axles from '94 U-van w/ 3800? I don't mean to change this into yet another axle thread, just curious.

KurtAKX MSG #16, 07-30-2004 05:13 PM
      I think you could probably do that if you were to yank off the stock outer joints and put the Beretta ones on. I would expect them to be more appropriately sized than the Beretta units (which only work on the driver's side!)

Kurt

DelawareFiero (ericwfs@aol.com) MSG #17, 07-30-2004 05:23 PM
      Looks GREAT Darth, as usual. Damn its the wifey take over. Im doing a 3800 S/C swap on my wifes 87GT. Im doing hers 1st, so that way I can spend the next year doing mine. LOL. I feel you on the seat covers, YIKES. My wife has a special paint job she wants on hers. Im sure I cant say, but it will definately keep me OUT OF HER CAR. I dont care how fast it is........help. Good Luck with the rest of the install and keep the pics coming.

Later.



daniel87fierogt (dltraylor@hotmail.com) MSG #18, 07-30-2004 06:49 PM
      Hey Darth, how are you going to make the electronic throttle control work? If i am correct i thought that the new 3.8's have the drive by wire throttle. But correct me if am wrong though



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #19, 07-30-2004 09:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by daniel87fierogt:

Hey Darth, how are you going to make the electronic throttle control work? If i am correct i thought that the new 3.8's have the drive by wire throttle. But correct me if am wrong though

Daniel, only the Series III 3800's have electronic throttle control, that I am aware of. Now concerning this topic, getting electronic throttle to work involves nothing more than hooking up the gas pedal sensor from the donar car to the Fiero's gas pedal. If you didn't want elec throttle, you could always swap on a manual throttle body and use an earlier PCM.

This engine that I am using is of 1997 vintage. The PCM is 1995 and the tranny is 1996.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #20, 07-30-2004 09:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by SOULCRUSHER:

Hey I had one of these! Same trans too. I only could manage 14.8-15.2's @92mph with it. But that was without your PCM expertise. It did run 13.27@105mph with a 100shot of NOS though. I have a 3.33 gear set out of my old trans if you are interested. The problem with mine was that is was a SLUG off the line. Could only manage 2.1-2.2 60's. But this isn't a drag racer, it is a perfect cruising and commuter motor!

Thanks for the offer but I think the 3.06 gears will give the best all around accelleration and gas mileage performance. I have a couple of 3.33 diffs too but even with a 3.33 this car will only be marginally quicker in the 1/4 mile. My goal is 35mpg out of this swap. I don't see why that would be so difficult considering our 1996 Olds 88 with the 3800 Series II / 4T60-E with 2.84 gears gets 32mpg on the highway.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #21, 07-30-2004 09:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Stinkin_V8:

Darth, I believe you've covered axles in your previous posts - Manual Fiero and Pontiac 6000 is your weapon of choice, right? Have you ever tried axles from '94 U-van w/ 3800? I don't mean to change this into yet another axle thread, just curious.

No I have never tried the U-van axles. Soon I will be tackling the axle issue in this thread and I plan to include measurements so anyone can go out to the junk yard and rummage thru the CV axle pile instead of having to buy new axles.

jelly2m8 (acook1@bwr.eastlink.ca) MSG #22, 07-30-2004 11:24 PM
      hey Darth, looks cool. For some odd reason I think that plastic L36 intake looks good I like the fact that you use the newer style accessories, I used the starter , alternator and AC compressor that came with the engine on the 3800SC swap I did for a forum member. I can't figure out any reason why people stick with that old stuff when the newer stuff works just nifty!

Stinkin_V8 MSG #23, 07-31-2004 01:53 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


No I have never tried the U-van axles. Soon I will be tackling the axle issue in this thread and I plan to include measurements so anyone can go out to the junk yard and rummage thru the CV axle pile instead of having to buy new axles.

Props to you for sharing, man. In fact, going out of your way to make it easier for those of us who (try to) follow in your footsteps.

Keep up the good work!



nitro (kyle@2bluesc.com) MSG #24, 08-01-2004 11:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

The serpentine setup is finished. I had an alternator that looked to be off a 94 S-10 which bolted to the rear head and I only had to make two small brackets to tie the rest of it in to the engine. I bought two ribbed pulleys, one to replace the tensioner and one to use as an idler and put them on.

Here is the alternator I used. Like I said before, the alternator bolts directly to the head, then the bottom bolt gets bolted to the bracket that bolts the engine and trans together, then I ran a tie-rod from the back of the alternator to the block as well. With 3 mounting points it is not going anywhere.



Hiya Darth!

I had an alternator off of a C5 and was looking at sticking it in the same spot... problem was that it was a hair to big in diameter (or the mounting point was too close to the housing). Saw your post and was like whoa! Ran out and pulled the alternator off our 95 Jimmy, but the back plate is different. Looked @ AC-Delco's site and cross referenced my alternator with those of the 94 model year S10s. Spent some time @ partsamerica.com guessing cars and looking at their alts and the C5 ones look close, but that's it.

Any other identification on that alt that could help lead me to discover where it came from? I really like that mounting point in the back of your alt better then then mine. I suppose either would work, just yours looks better.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #25, 08-02-2004 02:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by nitro:

Any other identification on that alt that could help lead me to discover where it came from? I really like that mounting point in the back of your alt better then then mine. I suppose either would work, just yours looks better.

It looks like one from a 1997 C1500 pickup with the 4.3L V6 has the identical mounting points. I know someone with this exact truck and will take a look at it next weekend to see if it is in fact the same alternator.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #26, 08-02-2004 10:34 PM
      UPDATE:

Installed the engine/trans/cradle into the car today. Also hooked up the shift cable and coil pack.



The Adjuster MSG #27, 08-03-2004 09:43 AM
      I was exhausted after this weekend and am still surprised how much he got done yesterday! I love the fact that this is coming together finally. But here's the thing, if this is the wifey takeover you should be very grateful your wife is so cool. After all it is a lot easier to get part money out of a woman that understands the value of what you are doing than one that is constantly saying "what good is that car, we can't take the kids with us." I think the wifey takeover should be a celebrated issue!!! The seatcovers are my thing, I think Darth is just grateful that I am going to quit trying to take his car at every turn if I have my own that he is too embarrassed to drive because I get into trouble with turbos. You know that little green monster in all of us that comes out when you drive a fast car??? well I'm especially bad about it and well really do need a fuel efficient car in the city...so no turbo for me...YET! (He He He) I still give him the pouty lip every now and then but it doesn't work. Anyway I'm glad someone likes the plastic intake, I think it is the ugliest thing ever designed...I can't wait to get the aluminum one off of a camaro like Darth's but it will have to wait a little bit. And remember your wife is cool if she likes fieros...appreciate it.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #28, 08-05-2004 01:25 AM
      Sorry it has been a busy couple of days. First things first, I got started on the cooling system, hooked up the heater hoses and the lower radiator hose. I used a molded hose from AutoZone p/n L-955 which was a little long but it seems to work ok.

I also moved the coil pack mounting closer to the engine to better hide the alternator bracket and painted the injectors and fuel rails and installed all of those pieces. The fuel system is hooked up.

Tomorrow I plan on finishing up the cooling system and hooking up the trans cooler lines and maybe move on to the CV axles.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-05-2004).]

Kekipi (grnthum@mail.com) MSG #29, 08-05-2004 03:06 AM
      I'm wondering what your going to do with the exhaust.

edhering (edhering@sbcglobal.net) MSG #30, 08-05-2004 03:41 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by The Adjuster:

You know that little green monster in all of us that comes out when you drive a fast car??? well I'm especially bad about it and well really do need a fuel efficient car in the city...so no turbo for me...YET! (He He He)

"Little green monster"? You mean Rat Fink?

Ed

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #31, 08-06-2004 04:05 AM
      Well I didn't make it to the cooling system or CV axles but I did manage to get the A/C hooked up using the stock Fiero 2.8 lines!

The compressor I used fits the Series 1 style A/C bracket perfectly and GM sells a sealing washer retro kit that allows you to use the older style A/C lines with the newer style Delphi 134a compressor. I will get some part numbers posted for the sealing washer kit and compressor soon.

Using this compressor, the A/C lines do have to be bent slightly to clear the block and knock sensor but it is no big issue. This series 1 3800 A/C bracket I used also has a provision for a motor mount directly under the compressor. To use this series 1 a/c bracket on a series 2 3800 some grinding is necessary to clear the oil dipstick tube.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-06-2004).]

The Adjuster MSG #32, 08-06-2004 02:31 PM
      edhering, wasn't rat fink a ford mustang thing??? Honestly, I'm not sure but those old fords are the only thing I've ever seen rat fink on. but then again rat fink was well before my time, funny pic though...and it's true the moster in me probably does look like that.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #33, 08-06-2004 04:04 PM
      As promised, here are the part numbers you need for the A/C system:

A/C compressor: 1136512 (fits 95-99 Olds Aurora, possibly others)
Sealing washer retro kit: 2724887 (the red washer in the kit is the correct thickness for the discharge port)

You will also need a thin sealing washer for the suction port that is not included in that kit. I got mine from NAPA p/n: 207275

The A/C compressor bracket I used is p/n 24500403 but it appears it has been discontinued from GM. I believe this bracket fits either W-body or H-body 88-92? applications using the 3800 Series 1 engine.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #34, 08-10-2004 02:49 AM
      Had to go out of town for the weekend to pick up a 3.4 SFI camaro upper intake and 4.0L Aurora V8 core engine for RAREW66's upcoming projects, as well as get a few things for myself. One of the things I picked up from my old stomping grounds was a pair of 90 degree fuel line quick disconnects for the fuel rails.

After installing those I moved on to the CV axles. The 4T60-E, along with the 440-T4 and 4T65-E use a bigger driver's side spline axle in the trans. The passenger side is still the same as stock Fiero. Also, the transmission is physically larger on the driver's side which means you will have to install a shorter axle to keep the shaft from bottoming out on the inner tripod. My axle of choice can be found in 94-up Berettas and Corsicas amoung other vehicles with similar body styles. The junk yard I normally go to already has the axles removed and stacked on shelves. If you go looking for this axle out of the car you are going to want to find the shortest GM axle that uses the small outer Fiero-size spline for the wheel bearing, which looks something like this:

The exposed inner shaft should measure about 1.5" between the CV boots. As for the passenger side, it gets a little bit more tricky. The overall inner shaft length should be about 14.5", or the measurement between the CV boots should be about 3.5". The problem is I have found most GM axles measure either 4" or 3" in this area. The 2001 Impala with the 4T45-E transaxle has the correct length inner axle however GM changed the way the outer tripods are attached to the shaft on these newer cars. You can get the older hardware to fit on the shafts but the spacing for the snap ring grooves is slightly farther apart but I have been able to make it work in the past without any problems. In any case you still have some room to play with here on the passenger side but again if in doubt check for binding or inner tripod pull-out just in case.

Note: this does not pertain to 4T60-E HD, 4T65-E HD, or 4T80-E transaxles as those use yet a larger inner shaft and inner tripod end spline which is not compatible with what I have used in this particular 4T60-E.

edhering (edhering@sbcglobal.net) MSG #35, 08-10-2004 04:13 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by The Adjuster:

edhering, wasn't rat fink a ford mustang thing??? Honestly, I'm not sure but those old fords are the only thing I've ever seen rat fink on. but then again rat fink was well before my time, funny pic though...and it's true the moster in me probably does look like that.

No ma'am, Rat Fink is a hot rodder thing...may have started as a Mustang thing (I'm not sure) but he ended up being adopted by the entire hot rod community as a universal symbol of the beast that lurks in us all...

Ed

kingconnections (daniel.king@kingconnections.com) MSG #36, 08-10-2004 09:20 AM
      Great Thread! Darth ..... You are THE MAN!



The Adjuster MSG #37, 08-10-2004 09:31 AM
      edhering, thanks for the explanation, i didn't know that and yes I love the sound of the wastegate when you let out of the throttle especially when you have just passed the latest victim that thinks they can hang with a lowly fiero!!! The sound just seems to turn people's heads with there eyebrows raised and jaws dropped cause they have no idea what just happened! See I told you I was bad and that is why Darth won't let me have one of my own until I am a doctor and can afford my own tickets!!! Winter/Spring '05 may be the perfect time to schedule the upgrade! Until then I will be satisfied with my grocery gettin', butterfly clad, gas mizer fiero.

Kohburn MSG #38, 08-10-2004 09:37 AM
      am i mistaken or were some of the 90's buick 3.8's turbo stock?
mmmm blow of valve


Scott-Wa (smcelhiney@comcast.net) MSG #39, 08-10-2004 01:35 PM
      looks like your moving right along! A quicky question to slow you down long enough to type here :-)

Did you swap valve covers to get the oil fill cap on the side of engine you'll see with trunk open?

I'm looking forward to seeing what configuration you use on the exhaust. From your pictures I see that only one manifold is heat sheilded and looks like the one on the firewall side of the fiero is the one that won't be sheilded. That an issue?

Scott

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #40, 08-10-2004 02:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Scott-Wa:

looks like your moving right along! A quicky question to slow you down long enough to type here :-)

Did you swap valve covers to get the oil fill cap on the side of engine you'll see with trunk open?

I'm looking forward to seeing what configuration you use on the exhaust. From your pictures I see that only one manifold is heat sheilded and looks like the one on the firewall side of the fiero is the one that won't be sheilded. That an issue?

Scott

Yes, I swapped valve covers so the oil fill was near the back of the car. As far as the heat shields, I did not have the front shield at the time of installation but when I was out of town this weekend I picked up the front one and installed it last night.

 
quote
Originally posted by Kohburn:

am i mistaken or were some of the 90's buick 3.8's turbo stock?
mmmm blow of valve

79?-83 Buicks were offered with the carbed 3.8L turbo
84-85 Buicks were offered with the EFI 3.8L turbo
86-87 Buicks were offered with the EFI 3.8L intercooled turbo
1989 Trans Am's were offered with the same EFI 3.8L intercooled turbo

Starting in 1992, GM offered the 3800 Series I with a supercharger


Kohburn MSG #41, 08-10-2004 02:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


79?-83 Buicks were offered with the carbed 3.8L turbo
84-85 Buicks were offered with the EFI 3.8L turbo
86-87 Buicks were offered with the EFI 3.8L intercooled turbo
1989 Trans Am's were offered with the same EFI 3.8L intercooled turbo

Starting in 1992, GM offered the 3800 Series I with a supercharger

hmm - so better off going with a newer engine...
still trying to figure out just how much is involved in turboing an NA 3800 from '98+
for boost under 10psi does it need any additional engine management?



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #42, 08-10-2004 02:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Kohburn:


hmm - so better off going with a newer engine...
still trying to figure out just how much is involved in turboing an NA 3800 from '98+
for boost under 10psi does it need any additional engine management?

I am glad you asked that question. The Series II SC engine has stronger rods, pistons, and pins compared to the N/A 3800 S2. The SC engine also has 8.5:1 compression which is more boost friendly than the N/A's 9.5:1 compression. There are pleanty of people out there who are putting boost on stock N/A 3800's but nearly all of them are running on race gas most of the time. In my opinion, if you want to turbo a 3800 I would start with a SC shortblock and then just add the N/A heads and intake you want and go from their. As far as computer you can use any 94-up 3800 computer that was set up to operate an SC engine and just have it reprogrammed or a custom chip done.

Kohburn MSG #43, 08-10-2004 02:42 PM
      I guess that is basicly what FieroX is doing a 3800SC block with NA intake + turbo
does it really need to be reprogrammed? or will the MAF be able to compensate? I suppose its more of a question of at what point can the MAF not compensate properly..

[This message has been edited by Kohburn (edited 08-10-2004).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #44, 08-10-2004 02:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Kohburn:

I guess that is basicly what FieroX is doing a 3800SC block with NA intake + turbo
does it really need to be reprogrammed? or will the MAF be able to compensate? I suppose its more of a question of at what point can the MAF not compensate properly..

Yea that is what FieroX is doing but I did it last year. Yes, you will still need the computer reprogrammed because the MAF cannot tell the computer to reduce timing with more boost. The MAF sensor tells the computer how much air flow there is, the computer program actually assigns a fuel delivery value to that MAF air flow signal. There is actually another thread going on right now about this topic. In my case, I have not had to make any alterations to the MAF tables in the computer BUT I have had to make changes to the fuel trim specific to RPM so the A/F mixture is correct under boost. Stock values are close but not correct.

Kohburn MSG #45, 08-10-2004 02:59 PM
      so using the L67 PCM the fuel tables are off witht he SC also? or the airflow from the turbo throws it a little off (from heat or turbulance?)
very interesting...

SC's are nice and all - but i preffer the milage that no-boost gives you - and a nice blow off valve can't be beat for grins..



The Adjuster MSG #46, 08-10-2004 04:39 PM
      Thanks guys! (sarcastic) with all your questions on exhaust, Darth has now decided to do the upgraded version on my car so now I have to wait for more exhaust parts. Good grief, I thought this was supposed to be the cheap and quick swap, good thing I'm not paying for it! We already had to upgrade the welder on this project...I guess it will be less to do over later but I really wanted to be driving this car by next week. Oh well, guess I shouldn't complain, I get to get the best freebie swap around.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #47, 08-11-2004 02:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Kohburn:

so using the L67 PCM the fuel tables are off witht he SC also? or the airflow from the turbo throws it a little off (from heat or turbulance?)
very interesting...

SC's are nice and all - but i preffer the milage that no-boost gives you - and a nice blow off valve can't be beat for grins..

Hmm, how do I explain this. Personally I use the 94-95 3800 Series I SC computer, along with many others with engine swaps on this board and elsewhere. This computer is programmed from the factory to operate a 225hp/275tq 3.8L engine with 28 lb injectors. The Series II 3800 SC stock puts out 240hp/280tq and has 36 lb injectors. So right there you have a problem because of the bigger injectors and higher power output. The MAF can compensate fuel delivery to some extent based on increased air flow but cannot compensate for the larger injectors nor can it make changes to timing. The timing tables in the 94-95 PCM are based on a load value. While this load value is derived from the MAF value it is also based on RPM. These timing tables are set values in the chip that can only be changed by reprogramming. To put it quite simply, the Series 1 SC engine puts out 225hp which means it has different timing requirements than the Series II engine that puts out 240hp. Furthermore, if you get rid of the SC and add a turbo, things get even more tricky. For instance, the stock SC motors will build boost at WOT regardless of RPM. In my case, my turbo does have some slight lag (as turbos do) and will not build boost until the RPMs have reached a certain point. To put it another way my boost doesn't come up until about 2000-2500 rpm depending on what gear my trans is in and what speed I am going. Therefore I am able to give my engine more timing advance down low at a high load value which improves drivability and gas mileage. Trying to use this on a SC motor would result in detonation because the SC builds boost regardless of RPM.

Now as far with the turbo affecting the MAF sensor, I have not had any issues when using the external 3.0" or 3.5" LT1-style MAF sensor. I DID have trouble with the stock 3800 throttle-body mounted MAF sensor so I quite using it.

Sorry if I confused you that is the only way I can think of to describe it.

Basically, turbos are different than the stock roots style SCs in 1 major respect. The roots style SC is going to pump the same amount of air per RPM. A turbo feeds on itself and generally continues pumping more air until the wastegate/BOV reaches the boost set point, or you exceed the airflow capabilities of the turbo. So to put it in perspective, the roots style SC will move the most air at MAX rpm which is why the 3800 SC feels like it makes most of its power in the upper RPMs. A turbo however will allow the engine to make max power at whatever RPM the turbo is sized for. In my case, the stock GN turbo allows my engine to make maximum torque between 2600 and 5000 rpm. By the time I hit about 5600 rpm the power band starts dropping off drastically. Therefore I have set my shift points at 5500-5600 rpm. The best thing about my turbo is when my trans shifts, the car pulls harder because the RPMs drop back down closer to max torque. If I wanted a higher RPM power band I could simply upgrade to a larger turbo, it is quite simply that easy... Provided the rest of the engine parts can take the added stress of the higher RPMs and cylinder pressures.

hope this answers your questions.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-11-2004).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #48, 08-11-2004 02:53 AM
      Today I finished up the cooling system by installing the engine outlet to pipe coolant hose. I forgot to get pics but I have a Dayco part number: 71075. It fits ok, no kinks but it is not perfect. Remember this was a stock V6 car which means the driver's side coolant tube does not come up as far as the 4-cyl cars so you have to snake the hose down there farther. I will try to remember to get some pics up soon. Some trimming of this hose is required.

Now for the long-awaited exhaust system. First off, I am using stock manifolds and crossover. The 97-up 3800 Series II engines use a 2-bolt flat flange with flex joint on the downpipe side. This flange actually measures at about 2.8" BUT the factory flex joint cuts the inside diameter down to less than 2 inches! While this may be "ok" for a naturally asperated 3800 S2 only making 205hp, it is certainly not good for the SC version.

Here is a pic of a modified stock flange I originally used on my 3800 S2 swap years ago:

Looking inside you can see how the flow area gets cut down significantly buy the inner pipe:

You can remove the stock flex part from this flange using a metal ban saw or recip saw, but the stainless steel flex part has a tendancy to dull blades. My weapon of choice is a air chizel with a muffler splitter or fiberglass cutting disc/chop saw. Once the flex part is removed, you can clean up the opening using a standard carbide porting bit or equiv.

Once your flange is cleaned up, you can start building your exhaust system. Here are some of the parts I used:

You can get mandrel bent U-bends from summit or jegs, but they don't have a very tight radius. Napa sells a 3" radius, 3" mandrel bent 90 degree section, which is the one shown in the picture that I painted (which was going to be used for air induction on a earlier project). The Napa part number is 41221 and this is what you need to clear the trunk wall. The braided flex joint pictured is also 3" I.D. and Napa just started carrying them so you might have trouble having them look up the part. The part numbers I have that were printed on the tag were: FT300N8 and FT30004N. The center section (flex part) is made of stainless and reinforced by the stainless steel braid. The attachment nipples (pipe sections) come already welded on this particular model (which are mild steel) but you can order these flex pieces without or just cut them off if they are too long.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #49, 08-11-2004 03:09 AM
      Before I forget, I need to mention GM made 2 different types of rear exhaust manifolds for the 97-up FWD engines. (the 95-96 3800 Series II engines used a rear manifold with doughnut gasket so the downpipe did not need the flex joint)

The C & H body cars amoung others with similar bodies used a rear manifold that dumped the exhaust just right of center of the vehicle. The W-body cars used a manifold that dumped the exhaust on the vehicle centerline. To tell the difference look at where the O2 sensor screws in. If your O2 hole is between the exhaust primary tubes you have the W-body style. If the center exhaust tube dumps right into the O2 (cylinder no. 4), you have the C/H body manifold. The W-body manifold will give you more room to route exhaust if you do it like what I am about to show you.

After cleaning up your pieces, you can weld the 90 degree, 3" dia, 3" radius bend directly to the flange. Basically you are going to want to shoot the exhaust straight out to the passenger side. Once that is welded on you can weld on the flex joint. Notice I cut off some of the nipple to shorten the flex joint and allow myself more room on the pass side for the upcoming 180 degree bend.

Installed on the car you should have pleanty of clearance between the flex joint and trunk heat shield. I was just barely able to get my fingers around it to verify this.

Now at this point you may choose to build your system differently. It is possible to continue on using all 3" mandrel bent sections, if you use the NAPA 3" radius bends and a small muffler... It WILL fit in the car. Since this is a 205hp L36, I see no need in spending money on a good, small-bodied muffler (magnaflow, edelbrock, etc) so I stepped down the tube size to 2.5" mandrel bent tubing on the 180 degree bend.

Again, a full size flowmaster is not going to fit very well in the space allowed so I suggest finding a muffler that has a body no bigger than 15" long, 11" tall, and 5" thick. If you can find a smaller one, you will have more room to work with. I know the edelbrock RPM Series? muffler has a very small body and I think magnaflow sells one in their wide-open series line as well. For this swap, I found a 2.5" in/out cheapy Cherry Bomb Turbo muffler that fit just fine.

The slight bend on the exit side of the muffler is neccessary to clear the cradle. The exhaust tip I used came off a 94 Trans Am LT1 car and exits flat in relation to the body. Once the car is on the road I will get some more pics of how it looks.

Kohburn MSG #50, 08-11-2004 08:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
Hmm, how do I explain this. Personally I use the 94-95 3800 Series I SC computer, along with many others with engine swaps on this board and elsewhere. This computer is programmed from the factory to operate a 225hp/275tq 3.8L engine with 28 lb injectors. The Series II 3800 SC stock puts out 240hp/280tq and has 36 lb injectors. So right there you have a problem because of the bigger injectors and higher power output. The MAF can compensate fuel delivery to some extent based on increased air flow but cannot compensate for the larger injectors nor can it make changes to timing. The timing tables in the 94-95 PCM are based on a load value. While this load value is derived from the MAF value it is also based on RPM. These timing tables are set values in the chip that can only be changed by reprogramming. To put it quite simply, the Series 1 SC engine puts out 225hp which means it has different timing requirements than the Series II engine that puts out 240hp. Furthermore, if you get rid of the SC and add a turbo, things get even more tricky. For instance, the stock SC motors will build boost at WOT regardless of RPM. In my case, my turbo does have some slight lag (as turbos do) and will not build boost until the RPMs have reached a certain point. To put it another way my boost doesn't come up until about 2000-2500 rpm depending on what gear my trans is in and what speed I am going. Therefore I am able to give my engine more timing advance down low at a high load value which improves drivability and gas mileage. Trying to use this on a SC motor would result in detonation because the SC builds boost regardless of RPM.

I had forgotten about timing being preset and not boost dependant
so basicly yeah, too many variables are different so you use the series1 computer due to its ease of programability




The Adjuster MSG #51, 08-11-2004 10:09 AM
      Sorry, I was wrong...we didn't wind up waiting on exhaust parts so I apologize. I get bits of info from Darth and I am getting a little over-exciting about seeing this car on the road this weekend. Which may or may not happen especially since a bunch of chiropractors that I know will be in town for a seminar this weekend and I may be dragging Darth to a bunch of dinners or at least make him the designated driver since every time we girls get together someone needs to have a level head! (we tend to have too much fun). Anyway, I am getting really excited and I kinda like the chrome exhaust tip.

Kohburn MSG #52, 08-11-2004 10:11 AM
      if you don't mind me asking what is it going into? a previously 4cyl coupe? (single tailpipe)

would be quite a sleeper

KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #53, 08-11-2004 10:53 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Kohburn:
if you don't mind me asking what is it going into? a previously 4cyl coupe? (single tailpipe)
would be quite a sleeper


 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

It is finally time to get started on the woman's car, she was so happy to see it get rolled into the garage today. She has a 1985 2m6 SE that has a 2.8 and 125-C in it now but the motor knocks.

bumper pad V-6 car.

Darth,
Being a man who likes to save his money, Cheap, like me. Where's the best price for 2.5" mandrel pipe? You said you picked up some from NAPA, is mandrel pipe something they carry?(I guess I could call my NAPA store)
TIA

swap looks great btw. How much will you have in this swap? What did you pay for the motor/trans?




The Adjuster MSG #54, 08-11-2004 05:12 PM
      I'm not Darth but I can answer the question. I think this might just be the cheapest swap ever ...
Most of what was needed was just laying around collecting dust for this application...it is the leftover swap! No $ needed for motor, wiring, spark plug wires, exhaust pieces, computer and chip, fabrication metal, labor, ac lines and r134-a etc lots of stuff just was picked off the shelf, here's what we actually paid for stuff
$500 for car (guy lost his job and had to move, couldn't take it with him)
$300 for rebuilding tranny
$100 for misc, hoses, bolts, and fluids
$37 for exhaust flex joint, $27 for muffler, butterfly car seat covers and accessories $40
So we will have about $1000 in this car which included buying the car... so all in all a pretty good steal! especially since I'm sure it will be reliable and a mid14 sec car.

Oh and for a 180degree u-shaped piece of 2.5 exhaust from summit usually runs about $17-$18 so you get 2 of the 90degree bends.

Darth informs me he will be working on the wiring today, he should be able to post something tonight.

A.Bejcek MSG #55, 08-11-2004 07:29 PM
      Nice exhaust!

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #56, 08-12-2004 03:11 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by A.Bejcek:

Nice exhaust!

Thanks, it is short, simple, and to the point just the way I like it.

 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:

Darth,
Being a man who likes to save his money, Cheap, like me. Where's the best price for 2.5" mandrel pipe? You said you picked up some from NAPA, is mandrel pipe something they carry?(I guess I could call my NAPA store)
TIA

Summit/Jegs has the cheapest prices on mandrel U and J-bends, which you can cut up to get your 90 degree sections out of. The problem is the summit/jegs catalogs have a limited range of radius bends listed, but I have not talked to them on the phone to find out of you can get the small 3 inch radius stuff either.

I have a Napa exhaust catalog that lists a very wide range of sizes, radius, and different variations of bends. You can get 30, 45, 90 degree, etc and more kinds of bends in sizes of less than 2" up to 4 or 5" exhaust pipe. Most of their bends are mandrel, at least in the section of the catalog I have been ordering from. The drawback is they are expensive, unless you are good friends with someone who can get a discount.

Like I described earlier, that first bend right off the manifold flange needs to be a very short radius bend to clear the trunk and give you room for the flex joint. Obviously if you use smaller diameter pipe you will have more room to work with and you can use larger radius bends.

The one drawback to running this type of exhaust system, at least the way I have it oriented is that there is really not room for a dual-outlet muffler. There is physically room for the muffler, but not quite enough for the piping to the passenger side tip. The 85 2m6 rear bumper has very slight notches molded into the bottom to clear dual exhaust but they are hardly noticable so the single outlet looks fine. Worse comes to worse I can always add the other tip and put a 3-bolt flange in the pipe in which I can just tie it into the exhaust coming down from the motor before it gets to the muffler and add some change-out selective plates with different size holes to allow me to make the car louder or quieter. (effectively this would give you the choice of having wide open exhaust on the passenger side tip or completely blocked off which would make all the exhaust flow thru the muffler) This is what borla does on their F-body cat-back systems.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-12-2004).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #57, 08-12-2004 03:36 AM
      Today I started on the wiring. Doesn't it look like fun!

I started with the 2.8L harness and removed most of the tape and conduit. I also seperated the body harness section that goes over to the C500 connector. This should only require cutting of 1 or 2 wires so just mark both harnesses or remember what they go to. In my case, I only had a ground and the P/N wire that tied into the other harness, all of the other stuff came apart.

What I accomplished today was got the C500 harness installed on the car.

There was some cutting/splicing/shortening/lengthening involved even at this early stage. I am trying to keep the wiring out of site as much as possible.

I also hooked up the EVAP purge solenoid, which I mounted to the EVAP canister bracket to keep it off the engine for a cleaner look.

Oh and as I promised, I got a pic of that upper radiator hose.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #58, 08-13-2004 02:09 AM
      Worked on more of the wiring today. Also got the air cleaner assy installed. I performed the same "improved airflow mod" to this air cleaner assy that I did to the 3.4 DOHC swap I last did. I removed the structure in the bottom of the stock air cleaner that the long bolt screws into and replaced it with a more flow-friendly assy. Here is a pic of the last one I did:

Once that was done I installed the assy on the car and hooked it up to the 3800 throttle body using an air induction bellows I think came off of a 95 Lumina 3.4 DOHC engine. Might have been from a 93 (without the MAF) I am not sure. Again, one of those parts just laying around on the shelf.



KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #59, 08-13-2004 10:41 AM
      your making me want to do this in the 88 auto coupe I'm picking up this weekend.

Can the F-body aluminum intake be reversed to face the driver's side of the car? Just like in the Lt1 swaps. Even if modifying the intake like archie does is needed.
tia

edit to add exhaust question

Do you think you could turn the outlet from the manifold towards the drivers side. Then have the inlet of the muffler on the drivers side, and run a crossflow similar to the stock setup with duel outlets? Or is there not enough room to do that?

[This message has been edited by KissMySSFiero (edited 08-13-2004).]

SOULCRUSHER (soulcrusher3800@aol.com) MSG #60, 08-13-2004 10:56 PM
      Cool setup Darth! I am sure The Adjuster will like! Hey, have you ever gone to this site? www.chassishop.com. I got a 3inch exhaust donut in 3 inch radius from there to do my exhaust which will be similar to yours, but will go out to two tips usung a Flowmaster 80. They also have turbo parts too. Just thought I would pass it along.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #61, 08-14-2004 01:10 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:

your making me want to do this in the 88 auto coupe I'm picking up this weekend.

Can the F-body aluminum intake be reversed to face the driver's side of the car? Just like in the Lt1 swaps. Even if modifying the intake like archie does is needed.
tia

The intake mating surface on the block and heads is symetrical which means the intake can be reversed and will seal up to the block and heads no problem. The issues you will face however is the heater hose outlet and EGR tube connections would then be on opposite sides of the block and the throttle body may interfere with the stock crossover pipe. But as far as I can tell everything else should work.

 
quote

edit to add exhaust question

Do you think you could turn the outlet from the manifold towards the drivers side. Then have the inlet of the muffler on the drivers side, and run a crossflow similar to the stock setup with duel outlets? Or is there not enough room to do that?

Yea you can do that but again the problem you will run into is getting the exhaust into the muffler. If you use very tight radius bends it should work either way, pass side or drivers side. Also depends on the muffler size.

----------UPDATE------------

Wiring in the engine compartment is completed, with exception of the cruise control. Inside, the PCM connectors are wired up to the 2.8L harness and all that remains is wiring up the tranny and injectors (seperate harness coming thru manual trans shift cable grommet) to the PCM and she is ready to fire.

Kekipi (grnthum@mail.com) MSG #62, 08-14-2004 01:42 AM
      Darth, I asked the Question about the exhaust a few posts ago. I am in the middle of swaping a 3300 Into My 86 SE and I have a Ocelot from TFS, I have a lot of money invested in and am Going To Use It. Thanks for the info I know I could not have figured it out Myself. I want to go around the trans to the stock location but now that I have Napa numbers Maybe I can shorten things and pull it off. Your Info is the greatest, Keep up the good work. Mike

cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #63, 08-14-2004 04:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
I bought two ribbed pulleys, one to replace the tensioner and one to use as an idler and put them on.


can you post or email me what part number or year and type of car for your ribbed idler pulley?

thanks




TimGully (timgully@yahoo.com) MSG #64, 08-14-2004 11:50 AM
      Oh, it's a flex joint! I've always wondered why the 3800s had that huge puck at the exhaust flange. Thanks for clearing that one up for me.

Also good info on the NAPA 3" flex & bends.

-Tim



The Adjuster MSG #65, 08-15-2004 01:47 AM
      Bad news...we gotta order a different part or something and it won't be in for a week or two...guess that is just what happpens with custom engine and tranny swaps...there's always a hold-up somewhere along the way and I guess we just had to hit it now while it was so close to being done! I even got to hear it run today (yippie!!!) so at least the wiring is pretty much done and there are some cosmetic issues that can now be taken care of in the mean time but sadly this car will probably not be shown at the Heartland show...but it is still here in town (Davenport) if someone wanted to see something in person. Oh well one less trip back to our house for the truck to bring the tables and easy ups for the show.

Stinkin_V8 MSG #66, 08-15-2004 11:50 AM
      Sorry to hear that, Adjuster.. It really seemed to be cooking right along. What part was it?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #67, 08-15-2004 02:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by cptsnoopy:


can you post or email me what part number or year and type of car for your ribbed idler pulley?

thanks

cptsnoopy, the idler pulleys are Dayco brand and the part numbers are:

89009 - 76mm 6-groove ribbed pulley
89015 - 70mm 6-groove ribbed pulley



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #68, 08-15-2004 02:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Stinkin_V8:

Sorry to hear that, Adjuster.. It really seemed to be cooking right along. What part was it?

As was discussed earlier this was a budget swap done using parts I had laying around. Appearantly I mistakenly grabbed a Series 1 flywheel and put it on this Series 2 engine. When I started it yesterday I noticed a moderate virbration that remained constant with RPM.

The Series II 3800 has a 1 inch shorter deck height compared to the Series 1 3800's which means the rods have to be shorter in order to maintain the same stroke between the two engines. This means that there is less reciprocating mass in the Series II engines that appearantly has an effect on how much counterbalance needs to be incorporated in the flywheel.

The Series II flywheel is a different p/n than the Series 1 but gmpartsdirect lists the Series II unit as only costing $38 so I am just going to order a new one since I can't seem to find any used ones lying around. It is a minor snag but I can change it out without having to drop the cradle so it is no big deal. I have some other issues to deal with anyway like installing the CD player, seats, and fixing some cosmetic issues.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #69, 08-15-2004 11:12 PM
      Oh yea forgot to post the pic of the engine:

Also got the electronic cruise control hooked up as well:



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #70, 08-17-2004 03:11 AM
      Good news, the new flywheel will be in by Wednesday so I should have this car ready in time for the Heartland show on Saturday.

Got the Delco CD player installed and seat tracks blasted and painted. Seats will prolly go in on tuesday and I will prepare the motor for pulling tuesday nite.

Stinkin_V8 MSG #71, 08-17-2004 01:03 PM
      Great work! Keep it up!!

The Adjuster MSG #72, 08-17-2004 04:39 PM
      I was so excited when I heard the good news my car will probably be finished for the Heartland show I went out and bought a matching butterfly air freshener for my car...(ok I've now confirmed it, I am a geek) Anyway, it is beginning to look good and I can't wait to get it detailed out for the show and start driving it!!!

Stinkin_V8 MSG #73, 08-17-2004 04:57 PM
      Heh, good purchase, Adjuster. You must be itching to get into that car! Are you planning to do any painting inside that engine compartment? I noticed Darth painted the injectors, are you continuing on with that?

Darth, you kind of skimmed over the shifter cable bracket but it's detailed pretty well on your web site in the LT-1 swap. Anything new there, or just the same ol' thing?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #74, 08-17-2004 05:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Stinkin_V8:

Are you planning to do any painting inside that engine compartment? I noticed Darth painted the injectors, are you continuing on with that?

I have a set of aluminum valve covers that we plan to have painted to match the injectors and plug wires. We also have plans to get ahold of the aluminum F-body intake and have it painted to match as well.

 
quote

Darth, you kind of skimmed over the shifter cable bracket but it's detailed pretty well on your web site in the LT-1 swap. Anything new there, or just the same ol' thing?

Sorry bout that, this project has gone together so fast I haven't had time to take a lot of pictures or talk about a lot of things. I actually have a bad habit of getting into a groove during a swap to just keep on working without stopping to take a break, or pictures for that matter. As far as the shift cable is concerned, you can do something similar to what I documented in the LT1 swap however the stock 3800 exhaust is really close to the shift arm so I had to shorten it a bit. I will try to remember to get some pics so you guys can see what I have done.

cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #75, 08-17-2004 07:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


cptsnoopy, the idler pulleys are Dayco brand and the part numbers are:

89009 - 76mm 6-groove ribbed pulley
89015 - 70mm 6-groove ribbed pulley

Thanks a bunch!



edhering (edhering@sbcglobal.net) MSG #76, 08-18-2004 03:42 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by The Adjuster:

I was so excited when I heard the good news my car will probably be finished for the Heartland show I went out and bought a matching butterfly air freshener for my car...(ok I've now confirmed it, I am a geek) Anyway, it is beginning to look good and I can't wait to get it detailed out for the show and start driving it!!!

Geeze louise you people are making me feel like a piker! You're practically building a CAR in time for the show when I can barely summon the energy to get my '85 detailed.... Oh well. I look forward to seeing the Heartland gang again (AND their cars) whether mine is detailed or not....

Ed

The Adjuster MSG #77, 08-19-2004 12:50 AM
      It RUNS!!! Can you tell I'm happy!!! It sounds good too. As I am writing this Darth is still out in the garage working, for those of you who don't know he really does get into a groove and usually the last two weeks on a project are a whirlwind for him so I don't see him much...he tends to work from about noon till about two am each day sometimes longer and doesn't take much time for even a meal so I have to force him to stop and eat which tonight after I got home from school we had our pot roast and veggies and of course went right back out to the garage and bled the brakes since he needed my help! Anyway we put insurance on it and it shouldn't have too many problems getting out on the road tomorrow and once again I will be in school so I won't get to see its maiden voyage out of the garage with the newly upgraded power train. However, I am really happy to be able to bring in to the Heartland show and Edhering, I am not looking forward to detailing this car since it has sat for so long but at least it is relatively clean on the inside since the previous owner actually liked this car. A few magic erasers and some armour all and we should be in business.

Stinkin_V8 MSG #78, 08-19-2004 11:45 AM
      Congrats, Adjuster!! You'll have to post a picture of your first burnout on the forum here!

Nice going, Darth. Another healthy conversion on the road. And by the sounds of it, another happy customer.

cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #79, 08-19-2004 12:39 PM
      WHOOT!

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #80, 08-19-2004 02:13 PM
      Took it on its first drive today and it runs great. Even better than what it did in my car, probably due to the fact that when I had this engine in my car it had a stock chip, but now I have the ability to do a custom chip and get the timing right. It actaully pulls strong and evenly all the way to 5900 rpm and the trans shifts great. My thanks to my friend back in Fort Wayne, Indiana who builds all of my trannys.

Did run into one major snag, the front right brake caliper is not releasing so I went to O'Reilly's and got their cheap reman caliper for $15.49 which will work fine until I get the Grand Am brake upgrade done. Besides that the person who owned this car before us had all of the suspension bushings and shocks replaced so this car rides very nicely. I am beginning to hate the poly bushings that are on my turbo car. Might have to go back to stock rubber...at least in the front.

Stinkin_V8 MSG #81, 08-19-2004 03:18 PM
      Darth, you wouldn't dare do a burnout in The Adjuster's car without her being present, would ya? LOL!

In addition to the shifter, I'm also curious about the timing changes you made in the PROM. Is this something you'd want to see a data capture for before you'd do it to another PROM or would you just apply your results?

I really like the work you do with the 3800 engines - everything is simple, bolts right in and just plain works. I'm of the opinion that the N/A engine is the right engine for my needs so you've been a great resource. Then again, your turbo is inspiring!

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #82, 08-20-2004 01:02 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Stinkin_V8:

I'm also curious about the timing changes you made in the PROM. Is this something you'd want to see a data capture for before you'd do it to another PROM or would you just apply your results?

I really like the work you do with the 3800 engines - everything is simple, bolts right in and just plain works. I'm of the opinion that the N/A engine is the right engine for my needs so you've been a great resource. Then again, your turbo is inspiring!

Thanks. I spent a lot of time today tuning this thing just right. I think I have the timing table nailed down. It would be a lot easier if I could pull the timing from a 95 3800 Series II N/A chip (which uses the same computer) but my software won't read it correctly because the code is different. It runs good and I put about 100 miles on it today including beating the crap out of it to make sure everything will hold up to the wifey's foot .

Tomorrow we are going to spend time detailing this car out for Saturday's Heartland Fieros car show here in Davenport. I will get some pics posted of the car once it is cleaned up if I have time but will definately have some from the show to finish off this thread. Don't worry, I haven't forgot about the shifter and mounts pictures some people have been asking about, I will get those posted after the car show.

Stinkin_V8 MSG #83, 08-20-2004 02:58 AM
      Ah! I forgot - the engine is a OBDII, PCM is OBDI.. Gotcha. Thus the need for the change. I assume you wouldn't bother doing this if you were doing an OBDI engine with it's stock OBDI PCM, right? Or am I relying on the General too much to have it optimized?

Enjoy the show, snap some good pics. I can wait for that other info until things settle down.

Hope The Adjuster can bring home some hardware with her new toy! The force is strong in this one.

The Adjuster MSG #84, 08-20-2004 09:24 AM
      I'm speechless!!! Naw not really!!! After all I am a woman! But man do I love this car! I got to drive it after spending 15hours on my butt all day in a classroom (and yeah I said it right 15hours at school because of board reviews on top of classes) and the seat was so comfy! Like it was made for me with a mold of my lumbar and thoracic spine (ie, my back). Course it was probably made for someone 5'8" which is what most vehicles are made for and I am 5'7" so It practically was made for me! But I had no problems sitting in this thing...Then I got to drive it and I couldn't stop smiling...it was really hard to not laugh like a hyena in this thing...wow, mine!!! I couldn't remember Darth's car pulling the needle to buried this easy when this motor was in his car, but it really is quite simple in this one!!! I didn't expect this car to have this much oomph! I figured it would be a fun grocery getter but I will absolutely not be embarrassed to take this to the track!!! Can't wait to find out what it does...hehehe. Yeah I think the turbo would be overkill at the moment but then of course Darth looked over at me last night as I was getting some drive-thru at taco bell and said "It feels like it's waiting for something" and I know it won't be too many more summers before one gets added. I've come to realize something, I will never own a stock car again...Darth can't keep from fiddling. We do have some cosmetic things to be working on in the next year...but I am impressed it is running in time for the Heartland show tomorrow... and I think we are doing a cruise to maid rite for dinner tonight so I'm sure I'll drive it tonight. I may not put this car into a show class though...Fred has set up a host display class and since Darth is an official member and his car will be in there...but I am a member by simply being his other half and may also choose to put this car in the host class as well, what do ya'll think? Should I enter the show or just the host class? I'm still debating...but also remember this car doesn't have a fancy paint job...it is stock with a few minor issues. Oh well, I don't really care, this car is pure fun on wheels!!!

Stinkin_V8 MSG #85, 08-20-2004 12:29 PM
      Too bad you can't take the judges of the show on a cruise in the car!


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #86, 08-22-2004 02:21 AM
      Here is a link to the car show thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/044892.html

As promised, here is a pic of what I did with the shifter linkage.

As I mentioned earlier, the Series II exhaust manifold is very close to the shift linkage so I had to "shrink" the shift arm down a little. Because the radius arm is smaller for the shift lever, this tends to move the gear selector stops closer thru the shifter. Basically, the old neutral stop (reverse lockout) is OD and you have to press the button to get into neutral. This setup allows for access to all 7 positions (P,R,N,OD,D,2,1) no problem.

Also installed the CD player I had on hand.

I have the opportunity to trade this deck even up for a Pontiac CD w/ EQ but I also have duplicate unit like this one for parts and I might get bold and change the button colors to red to match the Fiero illumination. We will see.

I also sandblasted the seat tracks and painted them with Cast Coat Iron engine paint.

I will get some more pics of the car probably tomorrow and will get those mounts pictures taken and posted sometime this week.

Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #87, 08-22-2004 02:25 AM
      Hey Darth I sent you a PM BTW great swap thread

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #88, 08-24-2004 03:06 AM
      Just wanted to supply a little update, the car is running great and we put about 250 miles on it already just driving it around town and some highway testing. There are a few issues that still need some attention like the brakes, which I am working on right now. The sunroof tracks that hold the weatherstrip are rotted out so those are going to be getting replaced very soon as well. Other than that, it doesn't leak any fluids and gets about 20mpg combined in-town driving and highway beating so I am very pleased.

alienfiero (alienrcallyy@gci.net) MSG #89, 08-26-2004 03:00 PM
      The plastic intake manifold will absorb less engine heat than the aluminum one will. You might get some alum. spray paint or paint it to match your cars paint. Or paint it with some flams on it.

MichaelWalsh (michaelwalsh@gayleanderson.info) MSG #90, 08-26-2004 10:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

I have the 1997 3800 Series II n/a (L36) engine left over from my Fiero when I did the turbo upgrade and this is what she wanted. My friend just rebuilt a 4T60-E with 3.06 gears a couple of months ago for me so this is the tranny we will be using.

Welp, I've just read through your entire thread and boy am I inspired! Yes, things can get "held up", but yes, also, there are nifty things, like that perfect altenator solution! Phwew!

So now that Im inspired, (and Bookmarked this thread), I'm finally going to dive in and ask about my situation.
I drive a 86GT Auto and at 55 years old, now like the Auto. It's a beauty with 66K miles I bought but now will sell. I own an 86 GT and a 87 GT both have been parked for years. And right next to them is my 91 Buick Park Avenue with it's great 3800 I retired when I picked up the 86 I'm driving.

The 91 Buick has the aluminum intake, and before you ask for it and before I offer it... I have to ask the Big Question:
does it make any sense at all to put that engine/tranny in my 87GT? It's a Series I obviously (SFI or TPI what is the differenc?) and I don't know what tranny it would have. But they both work great in the Park Avenue now. Or is it crazy to do all this much work and not end up with a Series II?

What I've been thinking is to just put it straight in, no big dealing around, but incorporating anything cool like your cool cool cool altenator.
The one thing that DOES make me hesitate is that the Series II is narrower and that obviously makes things easier .
I imagine that the Series I additional hp/torque will be impressive enough over the stock V6, but maybe I'm wrong. But how much does that stack up to the fact that I've got a total and complete running-great Series I in my driveway that I was about to junk anyway? I mean, given that everything is Right Here, is a Series II really worth the difference of having to find and buy and strip another unit of unknown heritage? Answering my own question, I think , sure, buy a 95 something or other for $500 and do it "right." But if my goal is just to get a 3800 with 4-speed OD Auto into it, is the horse etc from a Series II going to make much difference?
I guess what I'm asking here is doing a Series I "not done" or can it be a good choice? I notice most threads are about Series II and can't get a sense of the merits (or lack of them) for Series I with it's original tranny.


 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

Like I said this motor is junk BUT the 125-C that is attached to it is in good condition with functional TCC. The build code (85-CD) returns saying this trans has a 3.33 final drive. Anyone looking for a 3.33 125-C trans?


Oh, and that's the other thing. Tranny. I don't understand what trannies come with what. Is the 4T60-E probably what I already have in the 91 Park Avenue? Or is it likely something else I would 'not' want to just install as-is like I'm thinking. Anyone have a referal link with that type of info?

Anyway, soon as I decide, learn more, find enough links to decide, I'll decide.
Lots of comments, please!

Thanks again, Very Great Thread... and yes, we ARE waiting to see pix of this famous paint scheme!!

Michael,
Inspired!

[This message has been edited by MichaelWalsh (edited 08-26-2004).]

A.Bejcek MSG #91, 08-27-2004 12:29 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

Other than that, it doesn't leak any fluids and gets about 20mpg combined in-town driving and highway beating so I am very pleased.

I dunno dude, I was pissed when I got 22 after beating on my 3100 / 4T60E

I really like your swap... I wouldn't mind having one. Although a lot of people will probably look right by it a NA 3800 is really a great engine for the Fiero and with the 4T60E's overdrive it's probably about the best highway cruiser fiero out there, with enough power to have a lot of fun on the side. Definitely an awesome combination.

But why am I telling you this? You obviously already had it figured out.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #92, 08-27-2004 01:01 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by MichaelWalsh:

The 91 Buick has the aluminum intake, and before you ask for it and before I offer it... I have to ask the Big Question:
does it make any sense at all to put that engine/tranny in my 87GT? It's a Series I obviously (SFI or TPI what is the differenc?) and I don't know what tranny it would have. But they both work great in the Park Avenue now. Or is it crazy to do all this much work and not end up with a Series II?

What I've been thinking is to just put it straight in, no big dealing around, but incorporating anything cool like your cool cool cool altenator.
The one thing that DOES make me hesitate is that the Series II is narrower and that obviously makes things easier .
I imagine that the Series I additional hp/torque will be impressive enough over the stock V6, but maybe I'm wrong. But how much does that stack up to the fact that I've got a total and complete running-great Series I in my driveway that I was about to junk anyway? I mean, given that everything is Right Here, is a Series II really worth the difference of having to find and buy and strip another unit of unknown heritage? Answering my own question, I think , sure, buy a 95 something or other for $500 and do it "right." But if my goal is just to get a 3800 with 4-speed OD Auto into it, is the horse etc from a Series II going to make much difference?
I guess what I'm asking here is doing a Series I "not done" or can it be a good choice? I notice most threads are about Series II and can't get a sense of the merits (or lack of them) for Series I with it's original tranny.


Oh, and that's the other thing. Tranny. I don't understand what trannies come with what. Is the 4T60-E probably what I already have in the 91 Park Avenue? Or is it likely something else I would 'not' want to just install as-is like I'm thinking. Anyone have a referal link with that type of info?

Anyway, soon as I decide, learn more, find enough links to decide, I'll decide.
Lots of comments, please!

Thanks again, Very Great Thread... and yes, we ARE waiting to see pix of this famous paint scheme!!

Michael,
Inspired!

Michael, thanks for the kind words and allow me to give you my opinion...

Being a 91 3800, there are two versions. The vin C 165hp version and the vin L TPI 170hp version. Both engines are SFI and either would be a good choice in a Fiero. Yes, the Series II does make more power, but the Series I 3800 is going to be a nice improvement over the stock 2.8L the Fiero came with, especially in the torque department. In fact, you can simply transplant the whole drivetrain including the trans right out of your 91 Park Ave. Your 91 Buick should have the 4T60 (non-electronic) tranny which means there will be less wiring involved. While the 4T60 is not as strong as the 4T60-E trans, it is still a durable unit and will hold up just fine against your 3800. The only thing to concern yourself with, is this kind of swap will give you slightly less room and will weigh slightly more compared to if you use a Series II engine. But I have done a Series I SC swap before and it will still fit just fine. In fact you can use all of the mounting and assy drive cues I have used on this swap to help you. Let me know if you have any other questions. But yes, your 91 powertrain will still be a nice improvement over stock.

Stinkin_V8 MSG #93, 08-27-2004 05:08 PM
      Michael, I'm just finishing up a '93 N/A engine swap with a manual trans. I have a '94 3800/4T60E on my list next (wife's car) and I think it will be a LOT easier than the manual. MUCH easier to keep the engine and tranny from the donor vehicle. The engine fits fine, here's an in-progress pic from quite a while back:

And one other thing I'll point out about the Series I N/A is that the torque numbers are only down 5-10 ft-lbs from the Series II. The horsepower is 30-35 lower, but I'm more of a believer in torque numbers. The Series II is a more advanced and efficient engine, but the 3800 S1 N/A is a pretty decent choice for a Fiero, too.

Crow MSG #94, 08-28-2004 09:14 AM
      I agree

I'ts still fun to drive


LoW_KeY MSG #95, 08-28-2004 09:21 AM
      again great work



mcaanda (mcaanda@gmail.com) MSG #96, 08-28-2004 11:55 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Crow:
I agree

I'ts still fun to drive

Crow, that has got to be one of the cleanest Series I 38oo I have even seen.

Credit to you, and great work.

 
quote
Posted by A.Bejcek:
I dunno dude, I was pissed when I got 22 after beating on my 3100 / 4T60E

Yea, I'm seeing about 25 with a 38oo SC mated to the Getrag. What are the guys that are doing to get the "so called" 3o'ish MPG on the highway?

I will attest to Darth's ( Ryan's ) skill first hand. I was having PROM issues w/ my OBD I conversion, and all I can say is that the "Darth PROM" that is in there now really likes the new motor & my lead foot.
You really should have seen the look on the sales & service guy's faces when I pulled into Kitahara Pontiac!

--Allen



LoW_KeY MSG #97, 08-28-2004 12:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mcaanda:


Yea, I'm seeing about 25 with a 38oo SC mated to the Getrag. What are the guys that are doing to get the "so called" 3o'ish MPG on the highway?

--Allen [/COLOR]


have to keep your foot out of it.. I have a few people that can honestly say I'm seeing 33.6+ mpg it's hard to not have a little fun when your cruising along. My dad witnessed the MPG and got sick, he's like the car is unbelievably fast and you get that kind of MPG?! and my friend with a 3100 cutlass was a little freaked on the gas mileage.


MichaelWalsh (michaelwalsh@gayleanderson.info) MSG #98, 08-28-2004 01:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
Michael, thanks for the kind words

I REALLY appreciate your thread and making the effort to post information as you went along. As you already know,
some of it was super hot tips and I'm sure many of us are jotting down notes. Well, copying and pasting :-)

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
Being a 91 3800, there are two versions. The vin C 165hp version and the vin L TPI 170hp version. Both engines are SFI and either would be a good choice in a Fiero. Yes, the Series II does make more power, but the Series I 3800 is going to be a nice improvement over the stock 2.8L the Fiero came with, especially in the torque department. In fact, you can simply transplant the whole drivetrain including the trans right out of your 91 Park Ave.

That is what I was thinking to do, grab the whole thing, don't even open the valve covers. I'd replace the water pump while it's out, but I did that a few years ago. Might do it again.

Is the "C" and the "L" in the middle of the VIN? My VIN has a slanted "L" looking thing right in the middle of it.

But I also assumed that the stock auto couldn't handle the 3800 but I have a how-to page open on my PC that keeps the stock auto tranny (which I just realized appears to be Darth's page):
http://dtcc.cz28.com/fiero/fmods.htm (that's a framed page, the actual site is http://dtcc.cz28.com/fiero/ )
and so it's interesting to me because I have no way to fabricate mounts, no welder, and it looks to me, being a novice, that keeping the Fiero auto tranny means two less mounts to create?
He also says: "The 4T60-E transaxle was left behind, because we lacked the resources necessary to install it into the Fiero." yikes.. what resources? Fabricating mounts is my guess.

Perhaps that's a moot point because I'm going to be putting this into an 87 GT 5-speed or maybe even my wife's 86 GT 4-speed, though it only needs clutch work.
In any rate, right, use the entire engine/trans assembly.

Finding a Fiero tranny just because it has the mounts seems like a bad way to go... unless of course, I DO "lack the resources necessary to install it into the Fiero" too! Yikes! Anywho....

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
Your 91 Buick should have the 4T60 (non-electronic) tranny which means there will be less wiring involved. While the 4T60 is not as strong as the 4T60-E trans, it is still a durable unit and will hold up just fine against your 3800. The only thing to concern yourself with, is this kind of swap will give you slightly less room and will weigh slightly more compared to if you use a Series II engine. But I have done a Series I SC swap before and it will still fit just fine. In fact you can use all of the mounting and assy drive cues I have used on this swap to help you. Let me know if you have any other questions. But yes, your 91 powertrain will still be a nice improvement over stock.

Thanks.
Ah, that brings up one more thing that's been sticking in the back of my mind.
The idea is that I've been thinking that throwing in the working-fine Series I setup, that I'd have done all the major work and could easily later swap that one for something better -- that all the mounts and axles etc would have been done.

But now I'm wondering if that is all that true? Perhaps the 4T60 and 4T60-E have different mounts or pehaps my new 4T60 mounts won't be correct if I later try to put in a Series II?
That'd be a drag if this motor dies.

I have to say I'll probably just go for it, with what I have, but some of these question might shift me into finding a Series II. After all, my Series I has 210K on it, working fine, but in a few years.....I'll be looking for a new motor again, unless I'm very very lucky. I wonder if these things go another 60K? Right now it doesn't burn oil, and the atuo tranny shows no signs of oddness.
But it does appear to me that unless all 4T60 mounts are the same, I might want to face the fact that come change-out time, I *might* be wishing I'd gone with a Series II in the first place.
But like I said, I think I'm going with what I got. But I *really* appreciate the info you guys are giving me so I "go in" informed and confident.

Thanks again!
Michael

[This message has been edited by MichaelWalsh (edited 08-28-2004).]

MichaelWalsh (michaelwalsh@gayleanderson.info) MSG #99, 08-28-2004 01:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Stinkin_V8:

Michael, I'm just finishing up a '93 N/A engine swap with a manual trans. I have a '94 3800/4T60E on my list next (wife's car) and I think it will be a LOT easier than the manual. MUCH easier to keep the engine and tranny from the donor vehicle. The engine fits fine,

And one other thing I'll point out about the Series I N/A is that the torque numbers are only down 5-10 ft-lbs from the Series II. The horsepower is 30-35 lower, but I'm more of a believer in torque numbers. The Series II is a more advanced and efficient engine, but the 3800 S1 N/A is a pretty decent choice for a Fiero, too.

Thanks, Stinkin_V8.
I'm feeling much better about all this after joining this thread. I've had these two Fieros hanging around since about 1997 and always wanted to put in a V8 and then, when I heard of them, the 3800. These 3800s sound like the perfect thing for a Fiero that is meant for "normal" leadfoot driving. Not over-horsed, but more than stock.
And right, I agree, that torque is more important. "There's no substitute for cubic inches." is really, (talking street driving) about torque. HP comes in when you're already flying down the road -- gunning it while doing 60+ -- and although I love that too, most Eastern driving where the punch is needed is torque-dependent -- like at green lights. In fact, taking a guess, I want the punch probably 90% of the time at slow RPM not high. I'd much rather an auto tranny "pull" through the power I want than auto-down-shift for it. Much classer, too.

Cool.



MichaelWalsh (michaelwalsh@gayleanderson.info) MSG #100, 08-28-2004 01:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Stinkin_V8:

Michael, I'm just finishing up a '93 N/A engine swap with a manual trans. I have a '94 3800/4T60E on my list next (wife's car) and I think it will be a LOT easier than the manual. MUCH easier to keep the engine and tranny from the donor vehicle. The engine fits fine,

Hi again Stinkin_V8,

Welp, I'm sure you checked into this before you began, I've read where there are kits for this.

What did you do for motor/tranny mounts? I don't have a welder nor do I already know anybody with one.
I'd love to find the mounts for doing a stock Series I engine/autotranny insert.
I've heard kits go for over $1,000 so I'm not going that route.
Do you already have a plan for the mounts?

Michael

MichaelWalsh (michaelwalsh@gayleanderson.info) MSG #101, 08-28-2004 01:30 PM
      Hey Darth!

I notice a resounding Silence RE Paint Job!!!

[This message has been edited by MichaelWalsh (edited 08-28-2004).]

MichaelWalsh (michaelwalsh@gayleanderson.info) MSG #102, 08-28-2004 01:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by MichaelWalsh:
I don't have a welder nor do I already know anybody with one.
I'd love to find the mounts for doing a stock Series I engine/autotranny insert.
Michael

Hi Me,

Whelp, here's my current decision.
Clear out the garage, push the cool-factory-blue 87 GT in and pull the cradle.
Once I have that, compression test on my Series I, and some more answers about mounts, I'm sure I'll have a new perspective on the whole thing.

I might even "rebuild" the 87/5sp for putting in the 86. the 87's motor is fairly fine except of rusted ribs on the pulleys and of course, do the valve seals. Yeah, that might be an excellent solution.

I really don't want to be "taking over" this thread with all my posts, so I hope all my comments are ok with ya'll. Just felt that, after all that posting, that I let you know I'm going for cradle extraction. Maybe I'll start my own thread once it's about to be removed and go on from there. I'll invite posters here to come 'help'.

Geeze I hope I don't have to go buy a welder! :-)

Thanks again All,
Michael

[This message has been edited by MichaelWalsh (edited 08-28-2004).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #103, 08-29-2004 09:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mcaanda:


Yea, I'm seeing about 25 with a 38oo SC mated to the Getrag. What are the guys that are doing to get the "so called" 3o'ish MPG on the highway?

I will attest to Darth's ( Ryan's ) skill first hand. I was having PROM issues w/ my OBD I conversion, and all I can say is that the "Darth PROM" that is in there now really likes the new motor & my lead foot.
You really should have seen the look on the sales & service guy's faces when I pulled into Kitahara Pontiac!

--Allen [/COLOR]


Allen, thanks for the props and in reply to your 30-ish MPG inqury, that low 20's MPG firgure I shot off earlier was vehicle testing and tuning gas mileage. I had this same engine in my 87 coupe before I did the turbo engine and it got 33mpg on the highway no sweat. This one should be even better considering this trans has 3.06 gears which will keep the RPMs slightly lower on the highway compared to when it was in my car.

With my turbo 3800, I just got 28mpg traveling to MIS this weekend with RAREW66 and our combined luggage and tools. I am really considering putting the EGR valve back on my engine because I believe it will boost my gas mileage by as much as 1-2 mpg. I want my 30mpg mileage back! But still, 28mpg in a low 12-sec car isn't too bad, is it?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #104, 09-02-2004 01:47 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by nitro:

Any other identification on that alt that could help lead me to discover where it came from? I really like that mounting point in the back of your alt better then then mine. I suppose either would work, just yours looks better.

Sorry for the long delay in me getting out this info, I just verified the alternator I used on this swap is the same one that was factory equipment on a 1997 C1500 with the 4300 vin W V6 engine. The alternator is rated at 100amps.



shop_rat45 (kristopherjune@yahoo.com) MSG #105, 09-08-2004 04:54 PM
      Hey Darth, can you colaborate on the transmission shifter linkage mod a bit more? I would really appreciate it.

Kris

shop_rat45 (kristopherjune@yahoo.com) MSG #106, 09-09-2004 05:23 PM
      Bump for an answer.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #107, 09-10-2004 02:09 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by shop_rat45:

Bump for an answer.

sorry bout that I have been really busy lately. As far as the shift linkage I did something similar to the 440T4 shifter mod for the Fiero which you can find at http://spacecoastfieros.com/tech/440-4T60/

However, the 3800 Series II exhaust crossover/rear manifold runs really close to the shift linkage and I had to shorten and re-weld the shift lever so the linkage would clear the exhaust.

shop_rat45 (kristopherjune@yahoo.com) MSG #108, 09-10-2004 06:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


sorry bout that I have been really busy lately. As far as the shift linkage I did something similar to the 440T4 shifter mod for the Fiero which you can find at http://spacecoastfieros.com/tech/440-4T60/

However, the 3800 Series II exhaust crossover/rear manifold runs really close to the shift linkage and I had to shorten and re-weld the shift lever so the linkage would clear the exhaust.

Thanks Darth. People like you are what makes this forum great. I'd give you another + if I could.

Kris



The Adjuster MSG #109, 09-10-2004 07:34 PM
      Wow, been a long time since I've been on here (I'm taking part 2 and part 3 chiropractic national boards this weekend and have kept my time consumed by studying).

Anyway just wanted to let you all know that I've been driving this car quite a bit and have to say it is a BLAST!!!

I've even scared the heck out of myself already...It was raining and I was at a major intersection between to main roads the road I was headed onto was two lanes each direction with a large grassy median between. Well I stomped on the gas a little too much and the torque took over! Let's just say at the end of my donut I was looking the wrong way waiting for cars to start coming at me! I managed to pull off on the shoulder before colliding with anyone and laughing hysterically did a u-turn and went on to meet friends for dinner. I didn't stop laughing until the end of the first margarita.

My gas mileage has been difficult to measure because everytime I fill it up and drive I always hit my trip odometer. My gas gauge is goofy and so you can never tell how much gas I truly have so it always looks low, so my dear husband drives my car and fills it (I'm not complaining) without hitting the trip odometer...so I'll have to get back to you on this matter...but I do think I get pretty good (in the thirties) mileage when I drive. I have to say I am pleasantly surprised at how much power this car does have and though you can tell it is not in the same arena as Darth's car, it is darn zippy! I think I may be going to the Buick, Olds, Pontiac race day at Cordova Raceway on Oct. 9th so I will post my 1/4 mile time here...I know it won't be in the 12's but it should be a respectible score. Well I've procrastinated enuf, gotta go back to studying.

Stinkin_V8 MSG #110, 09-11-2004 12:41 AM
      Adjuster, sounds like you've got a pretty cool set of wheels on your hands. Congrats! Looking forward to hearing more about the mileage and of course, the 1/4 mile times!

You two keep up the good work!

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #111, 09-24-2004 10:51 PM
      did some highway driving with this car and here are the gas mileage results:

35 mpg, mostly 65-75mph driving with a very slight amount of in-town stop and go.

cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #112, 09-25-2004 12:09 AM
      very nice!

fieroX (rcheney1@cox.net) MSG #113, 10-06-2004 01:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Kohburn:

I guess that is basicly what FieroX is doing a 3800SC block with NA intake + turbo

actually I have a 3800 SC block, heads and lower intake that is modified to allow for my custom upper turbo intake.
I just wish my tranny agreed to the power my turbo setup is making