88 2.5 rebuild
Topic started by: Zeak, Date: 10-26-2014 03:58 PM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000144.html


Zeak MSG #1, 10-26-2014 03:58 PM
      Started pulling apart the bone stock duke in my 88 today.
Shes been burning oil and smoking sense I bought her. I have finally got to a point at my job where I can
afford to give my sad little fiero the proper care it needs.
While I was pulling the intake and exhaust off, I found the the stock head gasket was in
good shape. The stock exhaust header had the normal cracks on both sides. What I did not expect was was for one side to fall off in my hand.


The cylinder walls look and feel great. the bad thing is that I could shave in the refection. Got a new glaze braker for that.
Heres the other pics before I start cleaning. Still need to pull the rest of the block, but I'm trying to take my time. This is not my first engine, but I still want to make sure I take my time and do things right. Going with sealled power pistons and moly rings.






Gall757 MSG #2, 10-26-2014 07:30 PM
     

Is that blue stuff cooked oil?

[This message has been edited by Gall757 (edited 10-26-2014).]

Zeak MSG #3, 10-26-2014 07:57 PM
      Afraid so. Oil was getting into the combustion chamber and there was so much blow-by that I had to install a oil catch can on the valve cover vent.

Zeak MSG #4, 10-26-2014 08:21 PM
      On a related note. (did not want to start another thread)
Dose the exhaust haft to be this long? The hoop on the trans side seems like it would contribute to alot of extra under hood heat.
My pipe and Cat need to be replaced anyway.
I was thinking it could come out of the header and head right under the cradle wile reusing the stock flex points.
Maybe have a small, high flow cat under the engine with the proper heat shielding.
(photo credit to IFLYR22)

[This message has been edited by Zeak (edited 10-26-2014).]

theogre MSG #5, 10-26-2014 11:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Zeak:
On a related note. (did not want to start another thread)
Dose the exhaust haft to be this long? The hoop on the trans side seems like it would contribute to alot of extra under hood heat.
My pipe and Cat need to be replaced anyway.
I was thinking it could come out of the header and head right under the cradle wile reusing the stock flex points.
Maybe have a small, high flow cat under the engine with the proper heat shielding.

Picture shows 88 OE exhaust is to stop breaking exhaust manifold.
Second joint to right in above picture and pipe hanger to trans is 88 fix to isolate cat weight from crap manifold design.

You want 88 pipe.

Many think heat is a problem but cheap shield etc solve that. Heat really does not matter when the car is moving.
That picture shows OE shield on the pipe. Many have rusted.
I made starter shield... www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/133868.html#p13
Stops heat soak by pipe and cat.



Zeak MSG #6, 10-27-2014 08:43 PM
      Thanks for the info!
Got some more progress made.
Pulling the 2.5 from the top was not to bad after I removed the intake, exhaust, and the head.
Going to soak her in gunk and then pressure wash everything thats external.



Zeak MSG #7, 10-28-2014 08:43 PM
      Broke the darn crank sensor on the back of the coil packs. Guess it was time for a new one. My serpentine belt tensioner had a new pulley on it but I guess it was a little loose as it was grinding on the plastic that covers the spring. Can that be rebuilt or do I haft to buy the hole thing?
Did the pressure washing this afternoon after I got off work and am going to take apart the internals and wire-wheel the block and head.



Zeak MSG #8, 10-29-2014 07:31 PM
      Got some more work done.
Not sure how old the bearings are, but they look good.





theogre MSG #9, 10-29-2014 08:09 PM
      the belt arm worn then replace tension assm.
RockA etc have them.

Should have metal "spring" and you move it to new tensioner but many are missing. I Think just make noise when pulley/tensioner are bad.
Arm is pointing to where the spring mounting point. Not covered in cave...

See my Cave, Serpent Belt

DIS brick look like missing PIM shield.
See my Cave, DIS Ignition

rebuild an 88 then first carefully check balancer/oil pump assm.
88+ is known for balance assm problem that kills whole engines.

Check Jasper etc rebuilt engine. Likely cheaper and has a warranty.


Zeak MSG #10, 10-30-2014 11:32 AM
      Your defiantly right about the shield missing. Looking into getting one from my local pick and pull.
As for the pulley, I'm just going to use an adjustment bar and run it like the 84 2.5.
Thanks for all the great info in the cave.

[This message has been edited by Zeak (edited 10-30-2014).]

theogre MSG #11, 10-30-2014 06:47 PM
      down grade for V belts? is bad move. V belts can't use harmonic balancer and w/o that can kill timing gear and balancer/pump. Is part of why timing gears die.
just use new tensioner and harmonic balancer.


Zeak MSG #12, 10-30-2014 07:21 PM
      I'm not down grading to v-belts. Just going to find the same belt that I have now only shorter. I'll use the stock tensioner without the pulley to cap off the hole in the block.
I'm not trying to build a racecar here. I just want to be able to drive to work and not haft to replace the tensioner in another 80k.


Zeak MSG #13, 11-02-2014 11:11 PM
      Some more digging. My poor little duke is so dirty..... T-T
(also my harbor freight vice called it a day)





Jims88 (stumpster60@gmail.com) MSG #14, 11-03-2014 07:36 PM
      Good luck with your engine build; how many miles were on the old Duke?
My Harbor freight vice does this once a year




TopNotch MSG #15, 11-03-2014 09:55 PM
      Since you no doubt need new valves and re-conditioned seats, have a machine shop check the head for cracks. Mine had a small one when I rebuilt my 88 duke, so I got a later model head (better flowing).
See this thread for more on my rebuild.


Zeak MSG #16, 11-04-2014 06:24 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Jims88:
Good luck with your engine build; how many miles were on the old Duke?

Thanks. It just rolled over to 180k.


 
quote
Originally posted by TopNotch:
Since you no doubt need new valves and re-conditioned seats, have a machine shop check the head for cracks. Mine had a small one when I rebuilt my 88 duke, so I got a later model head (better flowing).
See this thread for more on my rebuild.

I plan on doing that. Just haft to get all the gunk off first. lol



hcforde (hankforde@gmail.com) MSG #17, 11-06-2014 03:03 AM
      So I guess I will be getting a vise elsewhere. Maybe the old Wilton's ARE worth the money.

Thanks for the headsup!


Zeak MSG #18, 11-06-2014 10:40 AM
      Tried to clean up my old valves. All 4 of the exhaust ones are shot. New ones will be in within 4 days....
The head was checked over and aside from LOTS of carbon buildup. Its in good shape. Still trying to source a proper shield for the coil assembly.


Gall757 MSG #19, 11-06-2014 11:25 AM
      It may be a camera trick...but look at that wear on the shaft. It looks like .010!

Zeak MSG #20, 11-06-2014 04:17 PM
      I think that's just some sort of coating they put on the valve. The more narrow point measures the same as the top and bottom of where the keepers go on the other end. I'll compare them to the new ones when they come in.

Zeak MSG #21, 11-09-2014 12:54 AM
      Went to the parts store and paid $2.99 for a small exhaust connector.
It's 18 gauge galvanized steel. Made a paper tracing of the pim and them cleaned it up and traced it onto the connector.
Going to cut it down the back side and unroll it and then cut the holes. (It's hard to find galvanized steel for cheap around here)
On the orange rubbers that seal the coils. I only have one per side. How thick should they be? There only as thick as a nickel at the moment.
Thoughts?

[This message has been edited by Zeak (edited 11-09-2014).]

Zeak MSG #22, 11-10-2014 09:49 PM
      Got the shield cut out, but I'm not happy with it. It looked great until I tryed to do the more detailed cuts for the coils to connect to.
I'm thinking I need a dremel, not a hand drill and chainsaw file. lol
In other news, My new valves came in.
There soooo nice looking.

[This message has been edited by Zeak (edited 11-10-2014).]

Zeak MSG #23, 11-12-2014 11:12 PM
      Got everything cleaned up and the first coat of bonding primmer on.
(sat some lug-nuts in the sparkplug holes to keep them clean) lol



Zeak MSG #24, 11-13-2014 03:21 PM
      Got my 2nd coat of chevy orange curing.
(sorry the #2 pic is blurry.)
Dose anyone know if and how the bottom end is vented?



edfiero (jteague67@outlook.com) MSG #25, 11-14-2014 08:31 AM
      Why not Pontiac blue?

Zeak MSG #26, 11-14-2014 04:13 PM
      Because I'm having the body painted next year.
general lee orange :3


Zeak MSG #27, 11-15-2014 01:15 AM
      Made a little progress tonight before the wife started yelling about the noise.


Zeak MSG #28, 11-16-2014 05:24 PM
      Doing some more cleaning. Wanted to show what the result of putting too thick of a bead of rtv on the oil pan. It did not fully cure and leaked alot.
I was also very surprised at how much dirt, dust, and rocks came out of my alternator. Still produced a charge....


[This message has been edited by Zeak (edited 11-17-2014).]

Zeak MSG #29, 11-20-2014 11:30 PM
      Getting the last 2 pistons installed and I have been slowly moving the crank assembly to insure nothing was binding. Now that the bottom end is all together. It seems stiff. Nothings grinding that I can tell. I used a plasta gauge on the crank and con rods and all was well within spec. Thoughts?


Zeak MSG #30, 11-27-2014 03:21 AM
      So this might work.
Got a belt thats just over 48'' long. Made the hole on the tip of the old tensioner wider so It has a bit of adjustment.
If it dose work great. If not then I'm only out the price of the shorter belt and I haft to buy a new tensioner anyway.
Going to install the oil pan in the morning and let the rtv set up for a few days before it sees any oil.

[This message has been edited by Zeak (edited 11-27-2014).]

Zeak MSG #31, 12-03-2014 10:08 PM
      Got my battery tray mounted and the new cables ran.
Edit- not the battery I'm going to use. It's a dead one I used for fitment.

[This message has been edited by Zeak (edited 12-03-2014).]

Zeak MSG #32, 12-10-2014 11:13 PM
      Slow progress.




Jims88 (stumpster60@gmail.com) MSG #33, 12-12-2014 07:11 PM
      Motors back in the car, looking good

Squishyxout (squishyxout@gmail.com) MSG #34, 12-13-2014 10:42 AM
      Keep up the good work, I'm going to be going through the same process more or less,

On a side note, I'm digging the color, what brand engine enamel did you use?


Zeak MSG #35, 12-15-2014 09:31 PM
      -Jims88- Thanks! To answer your question from way before when we where talking about broken vises. The od claims 179k. The only thing the other owners did to her was the timing gear.

-Squidhyxout- Chevy orange from VHT Engine Enamel. Also highly recommend there primer. Good stuff.

Heres a side by side of my new gear reduction starter next to what I can only assume is the factory starter. (still worked, certainly had enough lube from my bad oil pan seal.)



Got most of the wiring back on. the dog-bone went on without much hassel and I reran the new battery cables so there not touching anything that gets hot or moves.

[This message has been edited by Zeak (edited 12-15-2014).]

Shho13 (shho13@yahoo.com) MSG #36, 12-15-2014 11:59 PM
      Wow this is looking good! Keep up the good work and keep taking pictures... Stuff like this is fascinating!!!



olejoedad (welch.joe.714@gmail.com) MSG #37, 12-16-2014 09:21 AM
      Why is your battery in the trunk?

Zeak MSG #38, 12-16-2014 10:26 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

Why is your battery in the trunk?


Why not? It's out from under the deck lid vent, so that will have much better airflow out. (remember that air comes up from the bottom of the car, not in.)
It's also not exposed to the snow and ice during the winter.
I'm not building a track car. A 96hp iron duke will see to that. I'm 6'2'' and 240 pounds. I think the battery in the rear trunk will not make too much of a difference.


Zeak MSG #39, 12-17-2014 12:25 AM
      Wanted to ask what this connections point is....
The plastic bit with 2 bolt studs needs to be replaced as they both spin when you try to put the nuts on.


olejoedad (welch.joe.714@gmail.com) MSG #40, 12-17-2014 08:01 AM
      That is the Battery Junction Terminal.
The same style is used on several GM models from the 80's and 90's.


Zeak MSG #41, 12-18-2014 10:13 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

That is the Battery Junction Terminal.
The same style is used on several GM models from the 80's and 90's.


Thanks!
Got some more items installed. I made sure to seal the bolts that hold the DIS brick to the block.
You can still somewhat see the new shield that I made behind the packs (Thanks again ogre!)

This pic is of the bottom of the intake and the back of the alt.




Zeak MSG #42, 12-20-2014 06:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:

That is the Battery Junction Terminal.
The same style is used on several GM models from the 80's and 90's.


Ok, So just wanted to make sure my ducks are in a row.
The battery junction has a wire directly from the battery to it, so it's hot at all times. Right?

[This message has been edited by Zeak (edited 12-20-2014).]

olejoedad (welch.joe.714@gmail.com) MSG #43, 12-21-2014 01:12 AM
      Yes. The alternator, battery and chassis power feeds all attach to the BJT.

olejoedad (welch.joe.714@gmail.com) MSG #44, 12-21-2014 01:15 AM
      Sorry. Double post.

[This message has been edited by olejoedad (edited 12-21-2014).]

Zeak MSG #45, 12-21-2014 03:40 AM
      Ok, Thanks!
It would seem in my haste to remove the engine and start cleaning, I forgot to document that part....


Zeak MSG #46, 12-25-2014 01:37 AM
      So Marry Christmas everyone.
Was double checking my rocker arm bolts before I bolt down the valve cover and fill the oil.
I noticed that even at 24 ft/lbs. The rocker arms and push rods on some valves are still very loose.
Wanted to ask you guys and gals if the hydro lifters would take up the slack after I build oil
presser or if I need to look into the bolt shim trick....

Also tryed the David freiburger (from motortrend) spark plug wire separator.



Zeak MSG #47, 12-25-2014 12:41 PM
      Oppps. Nevermind. I was using the wrong key word for my search.
lifter tic


Zeak MSG #48, 12-26-2014 10:33 AM
      Well crud. Was not able to get shims yet, but as I removed a rocker stud, so I could get the proper size.
I noticed that this bolt has normal wear on one side from the bole shaped washer, But it also had scaring on the other from the rocker making direct contact to it. It dose not look like much, but I don't want it to get any worse and brake the bolt or something.
If I'm not wrong, The shims would only increase the amount of contact. Right?
Should I still do the shims and just file the rockers or is something else wrong here? All 8 bolts have different amounts of the same markings.
Back side, normal wear.

Front side scaring

Doodle to show where it's hitting When the valve is fully open.



Zeak MSG #49, 12-30-2014 01:19 AM
      Got the rockers sorted out with some shims and a little grinding with my dremel.
Primed the oil system by rigging an old garden sprayer to the oil pressure port.
Cranked her over until the oil gauge hit 40.
Got everything else installed and went for a start.
.......
Swapped my spark plug wires from "shooting fire from the throttle body'' to the ''run'' setting and she started right up.
No leaks.
No longer has the diesel engine "tick". (Will see how long that last after brake in)

I could not run her too long as she's still backed into the garage, but I'm happy for now.
I need to find a new throttle cable as mine is frayed near the throttle body and is about to brake.

[This message has been edited by Zeak (edited 12-30-2014).]

theogre MSG #50, 12-30-2014 10:57 AM
      Too thick "shim" and you can break things. Washers as shim are too thick many times.
Most engine Exhaust valves grow more then intake side. Is more easy to cause problem by shimming exhaust.

Some wear is normal. The ball often rotates to keep wear even. Many aftermarket balls have oil groove too.
Minor Rocker hits the bolt is common.

see http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/103494.html


Zeak MSG #51, 12-30-2014 12:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Zeak:

Oppps. Nevermind. I was using the wrong key word for my search.
lifter tic


I linked to the same post before.
To move the rocker to where I wanted it. I used a thick shim under the bolt head at the pivot point and a thin shim at the base of the bolt to compensate. I turned the engine over by hand several times to check for any interference.
I did not want to have the rockers hitting anything, but did not want them to open the valves too much either.


Zeak MSG #52, 01-01-2015 07:15 PM
      So today I found that my head gasket was leaking. I've never used new head bolts like these.
The 3 steps for setting them seem to be beyond me....
I pulled the valve cover and cleaned the oil off of everything.
Re-set them and we will see how it goes.
Anything else I could check?
Oil and coolant was spurting out behind the header shield.


Zeak MSG #53, 01-12-2015 10:45 PM
      So I'm back home from my trip to Tx.
Got her cleaned up and started. All new sensors.
Now Whenever she gets warm, she starts bogging down and dies.
Also have the leaking valve cover gasket. Tried the high dollar blue one. The cork one. The cork one with a coating of Rtv.
Made sure everything is clean and the valve cover it's self is flat.
I dont know........


Zeak MSG #54, 01-19-2015 02:09 PM
      Got her running. Just haft to get the trunk back on and watch for any more leaks.
Thanks again for all the help and advice!

Edit: this is her running without the belt tensioner, btw.

[This message has been edited by Zeak (edited 01-19-2015).]

Zeak MSG #55, 01-20-2015 07:04 PM
      Started her up this afternoon and a really bad knock started.
Never heard this one. It's a light tick at idel and a bad diesel sound with any amount of throttle.
WTH?!?!?


Zeak MSG #56, 01-21-2015 09:38 AM
      Nm. I got to thinking, I started this about 3 months ago.
My gas probably just went bad. ( I did not add any stabilizer)
Going to drop the tank and clean everything up.
Replace the pump, both the line and sock filters.
On the newer stile pumps, Was there ever any follow up on if we
need the pulsator or not?
I know I need to buy the FI hose that's meant to be submerged in fuel, but
not sure on the other part as I've seen people on here keep it and toss it.

[This message has been edited by Zeak (edited 01-21-2015).]

nosrac MSG #57, 01-22-2015 11:33 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Zeak:

Started her up this afternoon and a really bad knock started.
Never heard this one. It's a light tick at idel and a bad diesel sound with any amount of throttle.
WTH?!?!?


Man I hope that isn't a rod knock. My fingers are crossed.

I recently got my 88 "Duke back on the road but instead of a rebuilding the engine I found a 50K engine and it is working out pretty good so far.


Zeak MSG #58, 01-25-2015 10:28 PM
      Bad news.
Pulled the spark plugs and turned the crank until each piston was at tdc.
Using a screwdriver, I pushed down on each piston.
Cylinder #2 had the "clunk".
A big one.
I dont know what really happened, but my guess is I've spun the con rod bearing.
As it stands right now. I'm somewhat fed up with the duke.
I still have my 02 pontiac gtp under a tarp in the drive way.
I'm about to the point of just swapping the 3.8sc and auto trans into the fiero.
I'll be done with the isuzu 5 speed. I already hate that thing with a passion.



nosrac MSG #59, 01-25-2015 10:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Zeak:

Bad news.
Pulled the spark plugs and turned the crank until each piston was at tdc.
Using a screwdriver, I pushed down on each piston.
Cylinder #2 had the "clunk".
A big one.
I dont know what really happened, but my guess is I've spun the con rod bearing.
As it stands right now. I'm somewhat fed up with the duke.
I still have my 02 pontiac gtp under a tarp in the drive way.
I'm about to the point of just swapping the 3.8sc and auto trans into the fiero.
I'll be done with the isuzu 5 speed. I already hate that thing with a passion.

Sorry to hear the bad news but you won't regret swapping to the 3800. That is my plan in a few months. I wanted to get the Duke back on the road first so I could fix all the little issues and not have a garage queen.
Now that the Duke is back on the road I have a whole lot of little things to fix first but will get to the 3800 swap as soon as I can.


Zeak MSG #60, 01-28-2015 09:07 PM
      My mechanic came and picked her up.
I wont be stating a build thread until I get her back in a month or so.
T-T

[This message has been edited by Zeak (edited 01-28-2015).]

edfiero (jteague67@outlook.com) MSG #61, 11-09-2015 10:58 AM
      What happened? Did ya get her back on the road?