Trinten's SBC/F23 build - The work has begun!
Topic started by: Trinten, Date: 08-17-2009 10:48 PM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000142.html


Trinten MSG #1, 08-17-2009 10:48 PM
      Hi guys,

So in Mooresville, Scott over at LKN Speed Shop is taking care of the engine build, and in the meantime, Jeff over at Vixen Cycles in Charlotte is working on tearing apart the rear end of my car, dropping my current engine, cleaning up the bay, and starting the process of taking care any rust and then coating the frame! (obviously they do more than just motorcycle stuff!)

Maybe overkill, but this way I'll never need to worry about it rusting. He's also going to be replacing the bushings with the poly stuff (some of them he's fitting with grease fittings).

In the process of the tear down, he apparently found a tiny crab under the trunk carpet (the car was in California at one point near the sea... but still weird! lol), and I guess to tear down the rear of the GT requires some interior disassembly, and my headliner is in worse shape than I thought it was, so he suggested replacing that. :/

So, here's pictures so far!

http://rides.webshots.com/album/574171694NnsSGd

And then once Scott is done with the engine and I get all the pics from that, I'll put that up along with dyno sheets and any other fun stuff!

On a side note, until I get things fixed/ready with the 6 speed transmission, I was thinking about trying to replicate the girdle that at least one person used on his 4 speed muncie. I've only found one thread with pictures of it, and not a whole lot of details... does anyone know where to find enough details so a duplicate of it could be made?


Trinten MSG #2, 11-24-2009 01:12 PM
      The engine is finally complete and going through heat cycles and break in!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DbSJ8JPnfkE

Should have the dyno numbers next week, and have it back in the Fiero in the next few weeks!



MooCow (kmusk01@gmail.com) MSG #3, 11-24-2009 02:57 PM
      Very cool. I'm sure you can't wait to drive her again. I am actually just down the road from Jeff at Vixen. Might have to stop by and take a look

Ken~


Trinten MSG #4, 11-24-2009 03:02 PM
      Thanks Ken!

Yeah, it's been a long four months man. But hey, things happen. I just feel bad that I might be out of town when they put everything back together. I really wanted to be there.

Ah well. I'll need to get ahold of Jeff in some shape, way, or form and see about hammering out the last few little things on my to-do list, like the exhaust and changing the transmission fluid - going to put in some of Red Lines high shock absorbing stuff to try to help the muncie along for now, though I'm going to be sure to baby it and/or work on that girdle until the five-speed is done (And eventually the six speed...). lol


Trinten MSG #5, 01-06-2010 11:42 PM
      Well the engine is done with the dyno! His dynostand isn't the super nice computerized ones that we're used to, it's a bit "old fashioned" and when he was explaining it to me (and from what I've seen), alot of it went over my head (it's got gauges and some mechanical controls... pretty much the only thing electircal is the parts that run the ignition controls). The reason why I'm posting all that so the cut-and-paste from his email below will make sense. (and yes, I realize trying to fully utilize the power is next to impossible. For now.)

---email---
Are you sitting down?.................
She put down 455hp @6500 and 447ft-lb @5000!!!!
.....and thats not adding in the 20-30 that my dyno has always 'hidden'- these numbers are what came up on the box!!
Man, even "I" didnt expect to see numbers over 420 or so, considering the relatively small 700cfm holley I used, and our basic 'street' intake manifold........ In 'real world' numbers- you have yourself an honest 475hp/460tq 355 smallblock, and ill bet with a good efi setup and a good tune, you could be inching up on 500hp!!
Needless to say, i am probably as excited as you are LOL!!!!!
This made my new years eve, and hopefully yours too!
Thanks again, and Ill get ahold of ya when I get back in the shop monday!
-Scott
--end email--

YAY!
So when I get the Fiero back on the street I'll find a dyno to roll it to and see what it does and get a dyno chart!


Dracor MSG #6, 01-07-2010 01:39 PM
      Nice! That thing oughta move pretty good when its all done.



Arns85GT (arnellen@rogers.com) MSG #7, 01-07-2010 01:45 PM
      Interesting what a good 'ol Holley carb will do The 700 cfm may be about right for the motor. The bigger carb will go more to top end but the smaller one will give more low/mid torque. I'd run it a while before I'd swap it.

Arn



Trinten MSG #8, 01-07-2010 02:19 PM
      Thanks for the comments guys!

Yeah, Scott wanted to dyno it with a 750, but he didn't have one in his shop, so he borrowed a 700 off one of his cars, lol. Mine is only a 650. I don't think I'm going to worry about upgrading the carb, just saving up to do an EFI swap, using the FIRST tpi intake/runners and stuff from eficonnection.com.

What's left on my list after this (in order of importance to me) is:
brake upgrade
efi and nitrous
transmission(s) upgrade(s)

And then appearance stuff. Better hood venting, Roberts 355 noseclip and F355 interior swap (sorry, his PFF name escapes me at the moment)... and then trying to find out if there's anyway to fit the Autoloc 120 degree doors (preferably the motorized ones). If it's a matter of the things not fitting between the panel and the frame, I might try commission Robert to work up new panels for the front quarters and doors to give it extra room, and then hope the rear quarter scoop panels (still deciding on style) let the new lines flow correctly.

Lastly a paint job and wheels.
Ultimately hope to have it all done by 2012 - sooner if I get out from under my house first! (damn thing has been on the market since July and only 5 people looked at it).



Trinten MSG #9, 03-02-2010 10:24 AM
      New clutch and pressure plate ordered!

This seems to be one of those topics that people are fairly passionate about, filled with a wide range of personal experiences. As some members can attest to, I've been reading all the threads I could find on clutch preference, and sending PMs to quite a few people asking for more input. Thanks to all who were kind enough to take the time to get back to me with that information!

At the end of the day, with the funds I have to work with at the moment, I decided to give Clutchnet a shot (Though I was *severely* disappointed with the person I spoke to when I called - enough that I send an email to them about it).

Another member on here has their six puck sprung hub unit for his V8, and said the engagement was great. Others have said similiar things. So I got that along with the 2x pressure plate (which is what the guy who answered the phone finally suggested after initially trying to get me to go to Centerforce).

My old clutch and pressure plate wasn't in terrible shape, but it was beat up a bit, so I'll hang on to it in case of an emergency.



Trinten MSG #10, 03-05-2010 11:24 PM
      Big compliments to Oleg, the man who owns Clutchnet. He got my email and (after a few days of phone tag), we finally connected. He apologized that "Everytime you called, you either got the answering machine or talked to someone stupid." seriously, that's exactly what he said. So he was very sincere in apologizing for the discussion I had with one of his employees, and wanted to get more details on the Fiero to make absolutely sure I had ordered the right thing. Once I explained that the flywheel was designed to allow the SBC to hook up to the trans using practically any Fiero clutch and pressure plate.

So he confirmed my transmission, year and sub-model of my car, and said he'd get the order fulfilled right away!

Overall, very impressed that he took the time to call me directly and apologize and say that he would try to make sure the employee was handled.


Trinten MSG #11, 03-19-2010 04:04 PM
      My clutchnet clutch and pressure plate came in this week! Jeff is about done with another big project he was working on ( a custom turbo), so he says he'll be able to turn full attention to the Fiero soon.

In the meantime, here's some pics of the clutch/PP

http://rides.webshots.com/a...1694NnsSGd?start=120


Darth88Formula (darthklipsch@gmail.com) MSG #12, 03-19-2010 08:55 PM
      Looking good! I'm also in the Charlotte area, Mooresville actually. Nice to see a local car getting some work done!

Trinten MSG #13, 03-25-2010 02:37 PM
      Fear my totally amateur fiberglass/goopy-stuff-skills! http://community.webshots.c...61340093744752GsPXoO

lol. I know there are guys on here that could run circles around me with fiberglass, and have done a WAY better job than I did in MUCH LESS time, but it's my first attempt, and once it's painted, the vents should look factory, instead of obviously being an add on from the "lip" of the vents sitting on top of the hood.

For those curious - I used my dremel to cut/groove out the top layer of the hood material, so the vents (snuggly) dropped in and rested on the bottom layer. It wasn't flush, so I used an angle bit to grind down the top-layer-edges, giving it a gradient, and then started with the fibergoopy stuff, and then used the glazing stuff.

There are still some small imperfections that you can feel, but I think I've reached the limit of my ability, so I'm going to try to convince Joe at Vixen Cycle to do the "finish work" for me before he paints it.

And there's also other pics up there - the engine on the cradle, the test fit, etc.

http://rides.webshots.com/p...61340093744752GsPXoO

It did require having the decklid hinges modified due to the tall valve covers, and they're going to have to gut out a bit more of the trunk to fit my Mezzeire electric water pump in (it's longer than my old electric water pump). We were talking about using fittings to mount it vertically, but I had concerns about vapor lock or other complications.

Feedback/suggestions welcome!


Fierfly (sharons575@gmail.com) MSG #14, 03-25-2010 10:37 PM
      Did you know we are about to do a swap in mine?
He broke it in January; spun a bearing. Replacing the bearings wasn't enough.
We picked up a 3400 in Winston last week and will get started after Cowspatoot comes back from Daytona. We will be starting a build thread.


Trinten MSG #15, 03-26-2010 07:47 AM
      Sweet! Good luck on the swap! I called CP last week, haven't heard back from him - dunno if he got a new number or something.

Looking forward to the thread!


Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #16, 03-26-2010 11:25 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth88Formula:

Looking good! I'm also in the Charlotte area, Mooresville actually.


I'm in Charlotte too! Nice to know there is another one of us around here. Don't happen to have a red or white 88 GT? I've seen each of them driving around with this warm weather lately.



Trinten MSG #17, 06-04-2010 01:01 PM
      Well, Jeff at Vixen had given me a 5/1/10 deadline for his end of the work (which was everything but the girdle and exhaust), but some things came up and he couldn't make it. I talked to him last Sunday and he asked for another 30 days, I said okay. The car is looking good though!

His business partner Joe got the hood painted... so now it's STARK white in contrast to the rest of my sun/dirt dulled car. They were like "Oh **** , now he's going to want us to paint the whole car!" lol. I told them no, that was waaay later after the exterior mods are done. But with Joe cleaning up my amateur fiberglass/bondo of the vents and painting it, it looks stock.

Jeff has almost all of the body panels back on, he has the new headliner in (though he has to pull out one of the A-pillar plastic pieces and reseat it), and has finished the rest of the mods to the engine bay so the engine will fit and the valve covers will have plenty of clearance in all directions (I hope). So he's now got to re-coat the newly cut metal areas with POR 15.

I'll keep you posted! In the meantime I need to bust out the dremel and start modifying the decklid for the clearance I'll need, since the new intake makes the top of the air cleaner sit 1/4 inch higher. Hmm.



MooCow (kmusk01@gmail.com) MSG #18, 06-04-2010 02:02 PM
      I actually saw your car last month when I was there picking mine up. I had Jeff put in a new fuel pump for me. The engine is very nice, and HUGE! I am sure you can't wait to drive it.

Ken~


Trinten MSG #19, 06-04-2010 02:16 PM
      Yeah, maybe if they have another party this July over there... I'll be able to pick it up then. lol

blacksaleen95 MSG #20, 06-10-2010 04:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:


I'll keep you posted! In the meantime I need to bust out the dremel and start modifying the decklid for the clearance I'll need, since the new intake makes the top of the air cleaner sit 1/4 inch higher. Hmm.



Are you already running a drop base cleaner assembly? If not, and you can fit it, you'll gain some clearance that you need without cutting.


http://www.summitracing.com.../KNN-08984/?rtype=10

Also, you'll want to check the cfm rating on the filter you're using, it's most likely a 14". Back in my carb'd days (ford 351w) using a stock style filter and lid did not provide enough airflow for the engine. You may want to calculate how many CFM that engine will consume (355 is pretty healthy), or maybe ask LKN as I'm sure he'll know off the top of his head.I ended up getting the K/N xtreme Lid to help aid with the airflow and it helped quite a bit. When using those you want to try to keep a 1/2 min to the decklid.

EFI would fix all these problems

[This message has been edited by blacksaleen95 (edited 06-10-2010).]

Trinten MSG #21, 06-10-2010 04:55 PM
      Jeff had sent me a link to one, but I don't know what my clearances are between the carb and the distributor, and I have no idea how well they flow.

I see you edited your post! lol, I'll check out the link and more info you gave... and probably edit my post again. hehe

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 06-10-2010).]

blacksaleen95 MSG #22, 06-10-2010 04:59 PM
      The clearance to the dist is something that will have to be checked, but you should still be able to get a bit of room with the drop base. Not knowing what you have for a current base setup, as well as carb/intake, it's tough to say off the top of my head. The drop bases are made more for the Holley style carbs vs q-jet/carter/edelbrock. Unfortunately if the base does contact the dist, and you need some clearance and don't want to cut the decklid, if you've got an MSD distributor, you can probably pickup their smaller cap setup and that will get you some room for the base, but it's also more money you're spending..

Here's some lids... I'm guessing you'll end up with a 14" dia as the 16 will probably hit the dist. http://www.summitracing.com...Plates/?autoview=SKU

[This message has been edited by blacksaleen95 (edited 06-10-2010).]

Trinten MSG #23, 06-10-2010 05:16 PM
      Yeah, here's the distributor the engine has now-

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-850001-1/

Scott (LKN) said - for a carb setup, I'd want to get a 700 CFM flowing intake and carburetor. The carb that is on there now - if I remember right, is a Holley 650 cfm, I don't remember the exact model. Jeff suggested this - http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SPE-98499/

And yes, going to EFI is on the list. I found a place that will make the MAF-type wiring harness for me, very nice quality from what I can see, for 290. The big expense is the intake manifold I want to get, which runs around a grand, but it'll flow well enough to support the engine!


blacksaleen95 MSG #24, 06-10-2010 07:06 PM
      Well, Not sure where my head was at before... lol..

Discussing the issue with Jncomutt and he informed me you can't use the traditional style round cleaners because it will hit the pass side rail, my apologies for the misdirection.

The current option is the 7" or the triangle, which both wouldn't come close to flowing well enough for that 355.

I wouldn't put anything spectre on anything I owned, overpriced junk imo.

Some options would be to get a forced induction style bonnet for the carb that is connected to a fabricated air box or tube that would allow the use of an off the shelf k/n rectangular or conical filter. Similar to the spectre idea, but exponentially better quality and will function better.

Efi will fix this jk

What intake are you looking at for 1k?!

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-29785/ , 60# injectors, OBD2 computer & MAF, 4barrel tb, lsx coils and you don't have to change your air intake setup you're about to have made, and you have a FI setup that will suit whatever needs you may have.

[This message has been edited by blacksaleen95 (edited 06-10-2010).]

Trinten MSG #25, 06-10-2010 07:54 PM
      This is the intake I'm looking at using -

http://www.firstfuelinjection.com/

It's basically the TPI setup on steroids, the internal diameter of the runners is way larger than the stock TPI (I think even bigger than the SLP runners...), and can be honed out even further if necessary.

I want to do the coil near plug setup, though with the tall valve covers I had to use I'm not sure where/how I'll be able to mount the coils, so that might be off the table. That place does have a full blown package, too, they call it their "retro fit" package for just a little under 2k.. but I didn't want to get into the specs with them over the phone until I was at that stage and had cash in hand.

I was looking at some of the triangle air cleaners (that's what I currently have now, but it's got this terribly thick foam filter), the plan was to cut out the notch in the decklid so it would clear and put a rear-facing scoop of some kind on there. But again, missing some measurements to get that done. I'll probably be out there again before it's ready to be picked up and be able to take those measurements and get that ordered.


Trinten MSG #26, 06-24-2010 01:50 PM
      Well, looks like Jeff will have kept up with his deadline. I got this update from him today.

"I'll have the body and interior finished within the next few days. I'm waiting on the headers before I put the engine back in to finish that up. I'm avoiding multiple installs of the engine to prevent accidental scratches and other possible damage. I have a spare cradle and will have the car complete sans engine until the exhaust is squared away."

I was hoping to have it back in time for Triangle Two-Seaters this upcoming weekend and Korey's party... but what can you do, right? :/

On a side note, Scotts dad has a TPI setup that he's getting rid of, Scott is sure he'll sell it to me cheap! So a big part of the way towards the fuel injected setup!


Trinten MSG #27, 08-05-2010 11:20 AM
      Alot of hiccups and set backs since my last post.

1) Found out (by complete accident, thanks to a thread by CaptFiero) that the pressure plate I have may not clear the bellhousing properly. Capt also gave me info on how to test and check that and some measurements, all sent along to Jeff who said he'd check it.

2) Joe had been inexplicably putting off starting on my exhaust. Jeff finally said he'd take over, and we went back and forth putting together a list of exhaust parts, headers, mufflers, etc.

3) After I order I discover that the offsets I got on the mufflers I wanted (Borla Pro XS) might cause headaches, but Jeff would see what could be done.

4) Everything arrives, Jeff starts test fitting, finds out the headers will need to be modified. Gets Joe to agree to modify them immediately, and he does. Headers now fit, though a little closer to the trunk. Jeff will put in some insulation on that side until I get the exhaust coated.

5) Joe is now interested in the exhaust again, and started trying to figure out how to make it with a crossover and keep it quiet and no resonance. He asked me if it was okay if they cut out the bottom half of my trunk and make a new trunk-floor for it so he'd have room for the piping configuration. I said sure. He said this also opened up options for even larger mufflers, which would be even quieter, so I dug around and send him a few other mufflers, though I didn't know the exact dimensions this modification would give him, so I didn't go too crazy - and I did let him know I'd rather him try to use the Borlas so I don't have to deal with shipping stuff back to Summit and reordering more stuff again.

So that's where everything is at... in short, the last month and a half has been full of exhaust-drama, with a one-day (on my end) panic about the pressure plate. lol

No new estimated completion time yet.


La fiera MSG #28, 08-05-2010 02:09 PM
      Can't wait to see it running dude! I live right here in Mooresville also, near UTI. I know how you feel with this waiting thing. I have my block in Mooreville Machine Shop in downtown Mooresville. Good lord, this fricking guy has a stupid story every time. I paid him $300 advanced of a $450 for the total cost of the job. Nothing extraordinary, just bore and deck, installed cam bearings and fit my new pistons to the rods. He said it will be ready this Friday coming up (that is what he's been saying the last 4 fridays). I had to put some pressure on him. If I don't get my stuff by this Saturday you'll proly hear my name on the 6 o'clock news.
I did an LT4 for a friend and LKN Speed got us the right crank (had to take it apart again) and he also balanced it for us.
Well, if you need help with something let me know, I'll PM you my phone number.

Rei Moloon

PS. Planning to go to Carolina Motorsports Park in September for a track day. So far its going to be me (Fiero), a '94 Camaro with a 377, and a GTO. Let me know and I'll give you some info.


Trinten MSG #29, 08-05-2010 02:39 PM
      Hey Rei!

CMP, isn't that a course-track? I've never been on one of those, not sure how I'd do since I've never taking the Fiero through it's paces on something like that. If you want to PM me the details and I can ask you some questions, that's cool.

LKN is an awesome shop, if your guy still hasn't done your block, call up Scott and see how much he'd do for the same work, demand a refund from your guy and get over to Scotts place! lol

Before I go to pick it up I'll let you know, I'll likely be heading right from Vixen to Scotts place so he can retune my carb, so we can meet there if it's not too much of a drive for you.



La fiera MSG #30, 08-06-2010 09:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Hey Rei!

CMP, isn't that a course-track? I've never been on one of those, not sure how I'd do since I've never taking the Fiero through it's paces on something like that. If you want to PM me the details and I can ask you some questions, that's cool.

LKN is an awesome shop, if your guy still hasn't done your block, call up Scott and see how much he'd do for the same work, demand a refund from your guy and get over to Scotts place! lol


Before I go to pick it up I'll let you know, I'll likely be heading right from Vixen to Scotts place so he can retune my carb, so we can meet there if it's not too much of a drive for you.

You'll do fine at the roadcourse and you'll see how fun your Fiero is, specially with that engine. There is chasis dyno not too far from LKN Speed. It's called Taylor's Imports, that is where I do all my dyno tunning. When you're ready to go let me know and I'll take you there. It has a Mustang dyno.

[This message has been edited by La fiera (edited 08-06-2010).]

CowsPatoot MSG #31, 08-06-2010 10:00 AM
      Vince....you need to remind them that Run For The Hills 15 is only 6 weeks away, and that you can't go without your car. I am trying to get the 3400 swap in the yellow car done by then...but at least we have the convertible to fall back on if I don't make it.

Rei....more info on this track day, please....even if the 3400 isn't done, I can likely drag along Chris and his Lotus.


Trinten MSG #32, 08-06-2010 10:05 AM
      Hey CP,

I'm not sure telling them that I need the car for anything in particular is going to make it go any faster. I had told them I wanted it in time for the July Triangle 2-Seaters meet, and as you can see.... lol

I thought the convertible was Fierflys as well? Or did she give you that?

Rei,

Thanks for the additional info. What I'll probably try to do is find a parking lot someplace in the middle of nowhere to hit late at night to practice - last thing I want to have happen is lose control of the car and smash it into a wall, or cause an accident or something (don't know if multiple cars run at the same time).


CowsPatoot MSG #33, 08-06-2010 10:54 AM
      Yes...they are both hers....but my project is nowhere near completion. If we have the 3400 ready in time, she will be driving the convertible at the back of the aggressive group at RFTH and I will be driving the 3400 in the insane group.

Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #34, 08-06-2010 02:11 PM
      Any more info on this RFTH thing?

Vince, don't you practice driving the Lincoln pretty much everyday? just kiddin with ya..


CowsPatoot MSG #35, 08-06-2010 02:20 PM
      http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/079441.html for information

Some videos of the scouting run:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LOdoEatao8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUFmECOnY4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJD4k0eakbQ

There were 22 Fieros at last years run. It was by far the most exciting Fiero get-together we have done. If you have a Fiero that will run it, then you don't want to miss this.


Trinten MSG #36, 08-08-2010 09:52 PM
      Alright,

I got the decklid prepped, next weekend I start glassing. Looks like what I'll need to do is glass up the slope that's along the narrow part of the decklid till it meets with the wider part of the decklid, it's the only way to bring up enough of a surface to mate with the lip on the scoop. Then I'll grind down the lip a little bit so it's not riding the edge of the narrow part of the decklid and glass it on! Probably use a smear of epoxy along the bottom of the lip to help secure it.

Also heard from Joe over the weekend. He's got the trunk modifications done and said he should have time to work on the exhaust (another job had apparently cancelled on him). He said he'd get some pics if he could get his camera to work. So I'm hyped!

Jeff also said it would be pretty easy to move over the lock and electric lock popper from my old decklid to the new one, which is good news.


MooCow (kmusk01@gmail.com) MSG #37, 08-10-2010 02:21 PM
      Any pics yet? I might have to stop over myself and get some since I live close by

Ken~


Trinten MSG #38, 08-10-2010 02:28 PM
      Hey Ken!

No, no pics. Just an email from (Very) early this morning from Joe asking me what sort of exhaust tips I wanted to go with. I'm making an assumption that it means he's nearly finished. lol

If you're not too far and wouldn't mind taking pics, I'd appreciate it!


Trinten MSG #39, 08-13-2010 05:47 PM
      Alright, tomorrow I'm heading out to Vixen with the decklid and scoop and all of my fiberglassing supplies to make sure everything is going to clear, fit, etc, then going to start working on it there if Joe has no objections.

This Sunday will mark the 365th day that my car has been at Vixen. lol

In slightly sadder news, Jeff is moving his electronics shop out of Vixen. He'll still be working with Joe and selling his products to the shop/customers, but business has been sort of slow for him so it's a financial decision, and not anything falling apart between the two guys. Jeff will still be doing all of his electronics work, just out of a different location for now.

Because of this he is also selling/sold all of his car stuff, including his own Fiero project.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this won't cause any other delays in getting my car back. I'm not sure what else is left to do once the exhaust is done besides reconnect all of the cables, wires and such to the engine. Hopefuly I'll find out tomorrow, though Jeff said he wasn't planning on being in the shop this weekend.

On another note - Thank you to the guys who have sent me emails and PMs giving me their condolences and offers to help out/finish the work in Vixens place. I can't say I'm not frustrated (mostly since being given the first deadline over 3 months ago), but at this point - besides the exhaust - we're down to the minutia (I hope). So I want to tough it out with them if at all possible.

Also I don't want to get into a "who owes who what" situation with anyone, nor go through the additional expense of having to move a non-running car to someone else who is going to have to spend alot of time re-checking everything to find out exactly what is left to do, and then of course do it.


Trinten MSG #40, 08-14-2010 07:23 PM
      Okay!

I got out to Vixen today and met up with Joe (he was running a litle late due to unexpected visitors, but kept me in the loop on his ETA... mostly).

He went over with me what he planned to do with the exhaust and it's a solid plan, looks like it'll turn out nice! The modified trunk will still have enough room to put a dufflebag or something similiar in there, so that's good. I asked him point blank "How long?" He said that realistically it would take a week to get the exhaust done, but did say "If I can get Jeff in here and we both hammer away at this thing, we could probably get the whole thing done in 8 hours." He also said the guys that handle ceramic coating for them work fast and it probably only take 2 or 3 days. He said he'd get that taken care of.

He also said that there was a day that he tried to get Jeff to come in and work with him on it, and couldn't get Jeff to do it. From what Joe was saying, Jeff is suffering from major burn out. Could just be a matter of perception. He did say that he'd try to get on Jeff about getting it done. I stressed to him that my patience was wearing out.

I put on my cut decklid and laid the scoop over it. The air cleaner didn't come up over the decklid as far as I thought (maybe a 1/4 inch) - BUT I didn't fully assemble the unit. I just laid the cleaner on top of the carbuerator, the raised-plate-thingie was not in place, which I figure will bump it up another inch. Still plenty of clearance. Also took measurements and the spoiler wll clear (with about an inch to spare if put in the stock position), and shouldn't interfer with it opening!

I talked with him about how to glass it on, he threw out a few ideas that would make it look much cleaner and nicer... and also WAY outside of my abilities. So I asked him if it was something he could do, he said he'd either do it or he had a buddy that was excellent at fiberglass work, and then he'd repaint the whole thing. I had brought my dremel, some other assorted tools, and all the stuff for the fiberglass application, I gave him all the stuff but the dremel/tools.

All this means I still don't have a new definited estimated completion time, but at least my exhaust should be done this week. One major step closer!!!

I'm off to shoot him and Jeff an email.


Trinten MSG #41, 08-22-2010 12:33 PM
      I called Joe and Jeff on Friday after work to see how things were coming along. Didn't hear anything. Woke up to find an email and some cellphone-pictures that were sent around 3 a.m. Sunday morning (so about 9 hours ago from this post).

It was from Joe, being honest about not starting on the exhaust till yesterday. He has the rear bank done, and started on the front bank. From the pics he sent, it looks like he came up with something different than what he told me, or ran into a hiccup.


Shot from the back, you can see where the pipe for the completed rear bank ends.


A shot through the yet-floorless modified trunk. This is still looking like how he had originally planned/showed me. Check out my spiffy Borla Pro XS muffler!


Here's where it starts to get different. In the way he had originally showed me, the front bank muffler was going to have the same orientation as the rear, only sitting above and off to the side with some overlap. This would let Joe create a cross-over pipe by connecting the two mufflers together directly instead of the pipe. Apparently he's run into an issue with that, or came up with a better idea.

I emailed him back and let him know I was upset at the news, but appreciated the honesty. It's better than him just dodging me. I also asked him if Jeff had been out to get any of the stuff he needs to do done. I'll update when I hear something back... but right now Jeffs statement of "We'll do everything we can to get it back to you by the 27th." is losing it's credibility - though after all the other missed deadlines, I suppose I shouldn't have gotten my hopes up.


Trinten MSG #42, 08-23-2010 10:17 AM
      Got another email from Joe this morning and another pic. He did run into a hiccup, something with the firewall-side header. He didn't go into details, just that he finally got Jeff out there to take the cradle/engine back out of the car so he could work on it easier. He also sent along this pic.



You can see that the axles are attached now - probably to help make sure everything is going to fit/run right, and you can see a pipe peeking out under the oil pan, so Jncomutt may havebeen right, and before that other muffler wasn't hooked up, just in a test fit position. Either that or when Joe went to put the axles on himself, before the engine came out, he discovered an issue.

Regardless, the engine is out and Joe is going to modify the other header now to resolve the issues. At least progress is being made!


Trinten MSG #43, 08-23-2010 02:13 PM
      Got an email from Jeff!

He said that he thinks Joe will be done with the exhaust today and have it out to be ceramic coated, and he was still hoping to have everything done by/on the 27th. He did say it'd be cutting it close.

I'm on the fence about getting my hopes up. Part of me is excited, the other part is trying to keep me grounded.


Trinten MSG #44, 08-24-2010 12:13 PM
      More updates! Yay! I haven't gotten this sort of update/feedback since the first month of them having my car. It's reassuring!

The issue Joe had with the firewall side was that the collector dumped just above the subframe, no room to run the pipe - if I understood his email correctly. But he finished modifying the headers and running the exhaust.

He then ran into an issue with doing the crossover at the mufflers - apparently Borla doesn't joke around with the stainless steel they use, his drill bits barely scratched them! Which I guess is a good testament to Borla's quality. He has some concerns in general with it, since the link from one side of the exhaust will be after a few feet of pipe, the other will be just a few inches after the header. He's going to give Scott a call and see what he thinks.

He also talked to the guys who handle the ceramic coating for him, said that it could take a week to get them done - he said he'd call them back and try to get them to bump it up.

And lastly they got the scoop modified a bit to make it an easier (and cleaner) attachment to the decklid. I do have some more pics, but don't have the time to get them up right now. I'll do so tonight!



Trinten MSG #45, 08-24-2010 11:35 PM
      The exhaust pic I mentioned in my earlier post. Again Joe isn't sure how/if he's going to be able to do the crossover. Haven't heard back from him if he was able to pull strings with the people that do their coatings. I found out that Jet-hot (used to) do express jobs, I shot them an email but might just give their dealer in Charlotte a call tomorrow, since even at 24 hours that means they won't get it back till Thursday.



Trinten MSG #46, 08-26-2010 09:16 AM
      Latest email from Joe says that he's got to get one more bend piece, which he'll have today, then just 30 minutes more of work and the exhaust will be done.

His coaters said it'd be a few days no matter what. Which sucks. So if they get everything else done to get the car running and check everything by tomorrow night I'm still going to just pick it up and then drive it around for a week or two before bringing it back to them to pull the exhaust and send it out. I think since I need to do that, I'll probably go with Jet-Hot coating. Though it won't look as nice, I'm thinking about getting their S2000 stuff, since it has the highest heat retention out of all their coatings. There's only one Jet-Hot dealer that's within 25 miles of Vixen, so I'll probably give them a call since that's likely where they'll need to take it.

So as of right now, I'm still keeping my fingers crossed to pickup the car tomorrow night.

On a funny aside, when Joe was telling me about the exhaust, he says "So when you bring back next week from blowing up your transmission, we'll get it coated then." to which I responded with "Thanks for the vote of confidence there!" and he emails me back and says he tried to get a pool started on when I'd blow up the transmission... but said everyone wanted to pick "one week". lol


Trinten MSG #47, 08-29-2010 06:31 PM
      Well, the Friday pickup didn't happen - for reasons other than the work on my car and therefore not mine to spread/get into.

Since they'll have it till next weekend now (the weekends are the only time I'd really be able to get it), Joe'll be getting the exhaust coated.

So now I'm hoping for picking it up next weekend. Time will tell.


Trinten MSG #48, 09-03-2010 08:49 AM
      Joe has found a few issues, including one where he couldn't rotate the engine... now here's what he said he found:

"its the ****ing crank pulley. Scott has a diff timing gear cover on there that is all sorts of in the way. The rubber in the pulley was barely bumping against the plastic cover and jamming everything up. "

Now what worries me is - to my knowledge - that crank pulley and timing cover is the same one that was on there when Scott had this engine on his dyno stand for the break-in. So I let Joe know that this morning by email and asked him if it's possible that the pulley got smacked and messed up anything inside the engine. Joe's been really good about checking with Scott on things when he had a question about the engine, so I'm hoping he will for that.

I was hoping to pick it up this weekend... but now with this latest happening, I'm not sure. I guess it depends on what he finds about this timing gear cover/pulley situation.


fieroguru MSG #49, 09-03-2010 11:40 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Joe has found a few issues, including one where he couldn't rotate the engine... now here's what he said he found:

"its the ****ing crank pulley. Scott has a diff timing gear cover on there that is all sorts of in the way. The rubber in the pulley was barely bumping against the plastic cover and jamming everything up. "

Now what worries me is - to my knowledge - that crank pulley and timing cover is the same one that was on there when Scott had this engine on his dyno stand for the break-in. So I let Joe know that this morning by email and asked him if it's possible that the pulley got smacked and messed up anything inside the engine. Joe's been really good about checking with Scott on things when he had a question about the engine, so I'm hoping he will for that.

I was hoping to pick it up this weekend... but now with this latest happening, I'm not sure. I guess it depends on what he finds about this timing gear cover/pulley situation.


The plastic timing pulley... is this the standard L31 vortec timing cover? If it is, Archies SBC balancer/pulley will hit the crankshaft sensor boss on that cover well before the balancer bottoms out on the timing gear. I did a bunch of clearancing to the sensor boss and both side of the Archie balancer/pulley so it could be as tight as possible to the cover and still clear the passenger side frame rail. Even with all this work, I still needed to install a 1/4" spacer to bottom out the pulley. If you need more info just PM me.




Trinten MSG #50, 09-03-2010 12:12 PM
      Hey Guru!

This is a different cover from the one that was on my original SBC. Joe sent me some pictures, showing how my new timing cover protrudes a little further than the old one. I'll get them up on webshots and then link them here, and you'll see where the new cover protrudes out some. I'll let Joe know that there's someone who's run into issues like this and see if he needs more info, if he does, do you mind if I PM you his email address/TN# so you can get ahold of him directly?

Thank you!

Here are the pics. New cover, then the old cover.

http://inlinethumb08.websho...05923S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb06.websho...05923S600x600Q85.jpg

For some reason it wasn't linking/showing them correctly - after two tries, so here's the links.

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 09-03-2010).]

fieroguru MSG #51, 09-03-2010 01:57 PM
      Here are some of the pics. Notice the boss and the crank position sensor have been clearanced slightly. If you are using one of the crate motor covers, there isn't a crank sensor, but the boss is still there. You could fill up the sensor hole with epoxy and then clearance it alot more:




Here is the 1/4" spacer:


To clear the frame rail, I tapered the machined step between the hub and outer ring and even then it was tight.. :



Trinten MSG #52, 09-03-2010 03:04 PM
      WOW! You aren't kidding about it being a tight fit!!

I sent that post along to him. Hopefully it'll do it. I'm not sure what else he could do besides see if he can put my old timing cover on the new engine - which to my knowledge had no place to put a sensor... which obviously would be an issue when I went to EFI. lol

Thanks Guru!!



fieroguru MSG #53, 09-03-2010 03:31 PM
      My concern with having a shop inexperienced with SBC/Fiero swaps do the work is they might have moved the entire engine/tranny too far to the driver side and created the opportunity to bottom out the driver side tripod.

When I setup my SBC fiero originally, to set the side to side engine/tranny position I ran the driver side suspension from full droop to full compression to find the placement that caused the axle to bind... then backed it off about 3/16" to account for some suspension bushing flexing. Ran that setup for many years and lots of miles issue free with the convetional timing cover. All the work above was needed to retrofit the plastic cover to this setup and engine placement while keeping the balancer within the frame rails... so if the passenger frame rail hasn't been notched, and your unmodified balancer sticks out further than mine... then your tranny is probably further to the driver side and closer to or at the point of axle binding. Have them pull the driver side spring and cycle the suspension while rotating the wheel by hand and see if you feel it binding.

If it binds, there are a couple options. 96 Corsica 4T60 Passenger axle is about 1 1/4" shorter than the fiero DS axle (your tranny is probably about 1" over) and is a plug n' play setup once the ABS ring is knocked off. Or you could take the fiero axle and reposition the snap rings (and cut the excess off). On the passenger side you could run a 1/4" spacer between the axle and the wheel bearing (some of the Held stuff does this)... or run an intermediate shaft combo.


Trinten MSG #54, 09-03-2010 03:41 PM
      Your username is well earned....

The swap was originally done by Archie, that was with the previous owner though, and I never looked to see if anything had been notched out. So I'm not sure how much can actually change when just swapping out one 350 for another (hell, could be worlds of things, I will admit I simply don't know). I did send Joe a link to your last post, see what he comes up with. I'm planning on going out there tonight, see if there's anything I can do to help.

At least now I know there are more options for creating more room if needed!! Thank you!


Trinten MSG #55, 09-04-2010 01:18 AM
      Alright, Joe decided to just swap the timing covers, it was easier to do for now since I'm not going to be getting to my EFI for at least six months.

He pointed out something interesting to me though, the car had a mechanical water temp sensor that ran off the top of the block, the gauge was in the trunk. The temp sensor in the car worked as well, but it was always significantly lower - 50 or so degrees difference. I always thought that the one in the car was reading the temp from the radiator - Joe corrected me and showed me where the other sensor was plugged into the side of my old SBC, and couldn't explain the temp reading difference.

He isn't sure if it was just a bad sensor, or if it's just not the right sensor. To get the proper water temp inside the car, which water jacket should the sensor be plugged into, and what does the sensor look like / make-model number?

Thanks guys!

Edit - the sensor that was in the side (the one feeding the gauge in the car) says "HS 125 CM 12v 1969" on it, if that's any help.

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 09-04-2010).]

Trinten MSG #56, 09-04-2010 02:36 AM
      Damnit, and now we discovered that my throttle cable is about three threads away from snapping.

How long is the 86' GT throttle cable? Adanve Auto has some GM throttle cables of various lengths.

http://shop.advanceautopart...hTerm=throttle+cable

Just need to know which one I should get. I want to try to get this tomorrow (Saturday, so today?) instead of waiting for it from the Fiero store. Thanks!


Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #57, 09-04-2010 03:14 AM
      I'm pretty sure I have a used V6 throttle cable, if that's what is used on the V8 swaps. I have to double check its condition, but if its decent I can bring it by Joe's shop. Does $30 sound fair?

Trinten MSG #58, 09-04-2010 07:04 AM
      Sounds great to me!

And yes, as far as I can tell the original throttle cable was used. I found a really great .doc file in google on how to get the bastard out, and it was just like it said (well, on the interior side anyway, as it was already disconnected from the engine).

Unfortunately, the little damn black push-tab things were a ***** to get off and I cracked my until-then-mint console "skeleton".

I'm planning on being back up there today. What time did you want to drop it off? Or I can just paypal you the money, whatever works for you. The dead one is next to the car still if you want to make sure it's the same thing.

Thanks man!!


Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #59, 09-04-2010 03:52 PM
      I dropped that throttle cable off at the shop this morning for ya...

fieroguru MSG #60, 09-04-2010 06:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Alright, Joe decided to just swap the timing covers, it was easier to do for now since I'm not going to be getting to my EFI for at least six months.

He pointed out something interesting to me though, the car had a mechanical water temp sensor that ran off the top of the block, the gauge was in the trunk. The temp sensor in the car worked as well, but it was always significantly lower - 50 or so degrees difference. I always thought that the one in the car was reading the temp from the radiator - Joe corrected me and showed me where the other sensor was plugged into the side of my old SBC, and couldn't explain the temp reading difference.

He isn't sure if it was just a bad sensor, or if it's just not the right sensor. To get the proper water temp inside the car, which water jacket should the sensor be plugged into, and what does the sensor look like / make-model number?

Thanks guys!

Edit - the sensor that was in the side (the one feeding the gauge in the car) says "HS 125 CM 12v 1969" on it, if that's any help.



You only need the plastic timing cover with the crankshaft sensor if you want to run OBDII efi (like the 411 ecm). You can run EFI in OBDI format w/o any need for that timing cover.

Fiero temp guages are far from accurate. Unless you have fixed it, the temp guage pegs during bulb test. All this pegging over the years can allow the needle to walk backwards (read lower) over time or even come off completely. If this is the cause of the low reading, then you could gently pull the needle, let the engine get up to a known accurate temp that is easy to see on the fiero guage (like 220 degrees) and then put the needle back on so it reads right at that temp. A simple rewire will fix the bulb test issue so it will not go off again.

It is possible you have a temp sensor with the wrong range, they are fairly cheap to pickup at any parts store for the year of the fiero and original engine.

The sensors can be in either head or up close to the thermostat housing... it isn't that critical, but I normally avoid puting a sensor on the rear facing bank (cylinders 2,4,6,8) because I do not want to see it or the wire that connects to it. Just part of my finicky nature I guess.


Trinten MSG #61, 09-05-2010 12:08 AM
      Jncomutt - thank you for the cable! I haven't heard from Joe today, I asked him to call me when he knew he'd be at the shop. Looks like I'll be getting out there tomorrow to get that cable in. PM me with your email that you have paypal on (if you have it?) if not we'll meet up sometime and I'll get the cash to you.


FieroGuru-

Thank you for the info! That is the valve cover I had: A plastic one with a 4x sensor in there. The 411 ECM is the one I intend to use! The small harmonic balancer/pulley was rubbing against the plastic. I showed Joe your info on the spacer. He said it was possible to do, but then we'd need to space out the alternator and everything else by the 1/4 inch so the pulleys would line up. I don't think he looked at the pictures, so he might have misunderstood the placement/purpose of the spacer. I'm not sure. All that stuff is out of my depth, so I was just relaying info between you guys.

Maybe when I got to do the EFI conversion, I can make a trip out to your place if you'd be interested. I'd be happy to compensate you for the time/trouble. What do you say?


So next time I'm at the shop, my personal checklist is:
Get the new throttle cable in.
Be annoyed with my cracked skeleton and those damn plastic tabs.
flush out my A/C lines with some compressed air
Help Joe with whatever he's working on after I'm done with all that crap.


Joes list (to my knowledge):
Make sure the A/C lines can get around the headers
Finish getting the old valve cover on if not done (we didn't have any gasket sealant)
Put the damn thing in the car.
Hook it up and put the suspension back together.
See if I can get him to help me swap in the S10 master cylinder (please tell me it is the thing that is the brake fluid resevoir with that weird metal pipe under it?)
Get the brakes back on, filled up, bleed them
Get the rest of the fluids in there.

Then we take it for a test drive down an empty, low traffic side street in case anything goes Horribly Wrong (tm).

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 09-05-2010).]

Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #62, 09-05-2010 12:27 AM
      Just curious as to why you're putting an S10 master cylinder in it?

Trinten MSG #63, 09-05-2010 12:34 AM
      It doesn't have to go on there now, but if I recall correctly, it was one of the recommended upgrades for doing any sort of brake upgrade. Eventually I'll be doing the Lebaron brake upgrade (unless something better comes along before then), already got the master cylinder and the ten-degree brackets.

Will It hurt anything to have that master cylinder on there with the rest of the brake system stock?



L67 (pchaskin@uncc.edu) MSG #64, 09-05-2010 01:45 AM
      You're confusing the master for the brake booster. Switching to the S10 master without the aided assist of the more powerful booster is going to make braking a choir, if not impossible; given how terrible brake leverage/clamp already is.

-Paul

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 09-05-2010).]

fieroguru MSG #65, 09-05-2010 08:25 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
FieroGuru-

Thank you for the info! That is the valve cover I had: A plastic one with a 4x sensor in there. The 411 ECM is the one I intend to use! The small harmonic balancer/pulley was rubbing against the plastic. I showed Joe your info on the spacer. He said it was possible to do, but then we'd need to space out the alternator and everything else by the 1/4 inch so the pulleys would line up. I don't think he looked at the pictures, so he might have misunderstood the placement/purpose of the spacer. I'm not sure. All that stuff is out of my depth, so I was just relaying info between you guys.

Maybe when I got to do the EFI conversion, I can make a trip out to your place if you'd be interested. I'd be happy to compensate you for the time/trouble. What do you say?



Joe is correct in that putting the pulley where it needs to be to clear the plastic timing cover will force all of the other accessories to move, but that really isn't that bad compared to modifying the balancer pulley. When the time comes to convert to EFI, just send me a PM and we can see if we can work something out.


Trinten MSG #66, 09-05-2010 11:31 AM
      L67 - thank you for the catch/correction! That could have been very, very bad. So I need to get an S10 brake BOOSTER and put it on there. Does that require changing the master cylinder as well, or can I leave the Fiero one in place? In the meantime, off to reread that brake thread...

FieroGuru - Sounds like a good plan to me, thank you for being open to discussing it!


Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #67, 09-05-2010 12:10 PM
      I've done the S10 booster in my sisters car, you dont need to upgrade the master cylinder at the same time. The typical upgrade mc,however, is from a full size blazer. It's a quick take up, 1.125" bore.



Trinten MSG #68, 09-05-2010 12:25 PM
      Thanks Jncomutt, maybe I'll luck out and find that the master cylinder I have is from a full blazer. It was one of the things I picked up from Skoon.

L67 (pchaskin@uncc.edu) MSG #69, 09-05-2010 01:25 PM
      Understand, that using a larger vacuum assist isn't going to make your braking situation any better; the brakes will lock and fade faster. You should be considering larger, *vented*, rotors, because therein lies the problem. The S10 booster will be a metaphorical band aid, if you will.

The difference between the Grand Am upgrade + S10 booster and the stock system, is through the windshield verse standing on the brakes to stop. I drove a stock system home last night, after a few drinks, and still can't believe how unacceptable they are.


Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #70, 09-05-2010 01:55 PM
      Though I don't want to sidetrack this into a brake thread, Paul is right. The larger MC will give you harder pedal feel, with less travel, using the stock calipers. The S10 booster will increase the assist and therefore make the pedal feel more like stock, but you are still pushing more fluid to the calipers using less pedal travel. The result is that the calipers squeeze a lot harder, a lot quicker. They feel like they 'bite' much quicker and lock up during 'panic stop' becomes very easy. Of course, the better the tires you have, the better you can stop, as well.

Putting those 11.25" rotors on there, with the S10 and the larger MC is asking for some serious braking power.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 09-05-2010).]

Trinten MSG #71, 09-05-2010 02:17 PM
      L67 - yup! That's why I'm going to the Lebaron brakes. Since they're larger and vented. It's crazy how the thread (if I understand right) said that the back rotors are different from the front ones... and how few parts supplies actually differentiate. Makes making sure you get the right parts a little tricky!

Here's the threads I was using for brake upgrade reference:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/109048.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/048271.html

Now unless I missed something, both threads hve called for the master cylinder upgrade, but one doesn't mention the brake booster (yet). The other thread lists the brake booster (along with a link to another thread) as an OPTIONAL upgarde.

Now it was mentioned that puttingon the bigger MC with the stock system is going to make the brakes LESS responsive? Did I understand that right?

Yet it was just mentioned that doing the MC and Booster is asking for trouble. So the MC change makes MODIFIED brakes more responsive, just not stock ones. So I shouldn't worry about the booster - just hold off putting on the MC until I do the Lebaron upgrade... right?


L67 (pchaskin@uncc.edu) MSG #72, 09-05-2010 02:26 PM
      The master cylinder is a larger bore, so it will move more fluid. Why you would need this:
1. You're using a larger caliper that requires more fluid to operate.
2. Your brake upgrade is twitchy, too "on/off". The blazer MC will move more fluid but reduce mechanical advantage. So the brakes would come in gradually with more effort.

In your case, neither is what you need. The booster is the upgrade, not the MC. If and when you get the Lebaron brakes on, you decide that they're twitchy or engage faster than you'd like, "you want more control or less pedal travel", then I would recommend looking into the larger bore MC. You do NOT want a harder pedal with the solid rotors you have on your car now. Which is why John was curious why you were talking about using an S10 MC.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 09-05-2010).]

Trinten MSG #73, 09-05-2010 09:54 PM
      Hey L67! Thanks for the breakdown! So when I do the upgrade, just see how it goes with the stock MC and booster, and if it breaks too hard, pop in the bigger MC to ease it up a smidge?

Thanks again guys.

I have not heard from Joe yesterday (After I got home) or today. Called the shop and his cell phone. :/


Trinten MSG #74, 10-16-2010 12:09 AM
      Well,

The good news is that the engine was actually running in the car!

The coolant system is filled and was burped once, the wheels are on, the engine is in.

The bad news is, stuff is yet to be done!

The "mysterious red wire" is still in play. I'm positive it was what was supplying power to the electric water pump, and that the connection it had running to the C500 was to close the circuit when the key was on the accessory or run position. Right now Joe has it hooked up to draw juice through that block. I don't think that's a good idea.

Jeff is positive the wire was feeding the pump too. He'll be there on Sunday to check that part out as well as help put the rear clip back together.

The rear clip is still apart, transmission has no fluid yet. Joe said he still had some odds and ends to secure into place, but everything was hooked up. Minus the LEDs for the PONTIAC symbol.

The headers have (According to Joe) been at the coaters since last Wednesday. He tried getting ahold of them Thursday to get an ETA on when they would be done, because he said that if he got them back Friday he could (likely) get my car back to me this weekend. Unfortunately he couldn't get through to anyone, no answer the first time, on hold for a while before hanging up the second time.

Not to be too much of an ass, but at least he has some idea of how I feel when I leave him multiple messages and don't hear anything for a week. He said he was going to drive up to their place on Friday to see what was going on and call me, but haven't heard from him. I'll call him tomorrow.

So right now the plan is for me to go out there Sunday early afternoon, meet up with Joe and Jeff.

If we do get the car up and running and ready to roll and for me to leave with it on Sunday... I'm going to see if I can convince Jeff to follow me home in my Town Car and Joe to follow behind in his truck, and then Jeff carpool with Joe back to Charlotte. No sense in my car sitting there done for a week, and no sense in dragging my roommate down to Charlotte if there's no promise the car will be ready to drive away.

We'll see what happens. Story of my life right now. lol


L67 (pchaskin@uncc.edu) MSG #75, 10-16-2010 05:14 AM
      It was August 23rd 2009 when Jeff put blame on me that your car wasn't getting worked on, because I parked the station wagon in front of the shop door the previous night. Me thinks I wasn't the problem.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 10-16-2010).]

Trinten MSG #76, 10-18-2010 12:13 PM
      lol, well, here's the update from yesterday (and strangely, I didn't get a notification of your reply...)

So I worked on the cooling system yesterday, discovered that at one of the couplings the pipe is crimped a hair. Looking around the coupling it appears it's been that way for a while. At some point I'll likely replace all of the piping anyway (stainless if possible) so not going to worry about it too much for right now - since if it was leaking before, it wasn't noticable.

Joe went to Calico... my exhaust was still not coated, so he just picked it up to put it on the car. I did find this nifty stuff that you can put on yourself with an airbrush gun or touch up paint gun (after you blast your parts), the stuff air dries and cures from exhaust temperatures. Kento is familiar with the stuff so he said he would help me out getting all that done. And it'll be alot cheaper. (this stuff: http://www.caswellplating.c...e/index.html#exhaust )

Joe is fabricating a bracket that will attach to those extra holes in the bottom part of the hinge bracket, that will hold my oil pressure sensor thing and two relays that currently won't reach to where they were before, instead of them just hanging there. There's also a fitting he's waiting on (or can fabricate) to hook up to the water pump to get my heater core put into the loop.

Brake lines are hooked back up, sway bar is partially in place (connected to the cradle).

Fuel line needs to be redone, but the rest of the fuel system is done and in place, the engine compartment's new temp gauge is nicer than my old one, and mounted in a nifty way. The new trunk floor is in place.

We found an electrical gremlin. I was right about the red wire running the water pump, and it seems that it's lead from the battery is worn/touching the chassis someplace, causing 12v-to-chassis issue. Jeff just needs to hunt down exactly where this is taking place and get it fixed. I think almost all of the other wires that were dangling under the car are now hooked up. Among them were the A/C power, and one other wire clip, and then one loansome wire hanging by itself with some weird cap/scoop on it.

And lastly... the new intake I have is laid out differently, so we need to figure out how to mount the return spring(s) for the throttle on my carb since the bracket won't hook up the same way.

Things left to do (at Vixen):
Eletrical gremlin (and then reassemble the interior - again)
Fabricate relay-n-oil sensor bracket
Heater core hookup to water pump
Brake bleed
Refill cooling system and reburp it
Transmission fluid filled
A nice fuel line setup from pressure regulator to Carb
Reconnect A/C lines to compressor
Throttle return springs
Decklid/scoop (but thankfully it's almost done)

Then off to get it inspected, then to an A/C shop to vacuum the lines and recharge the system.

Damn... it doesn't seem like anything got done... but I know stuff did, I was there! lol


Trinten MSG #77, 10-28-2010 10:57 AM
      Okay, got texts from Joe, plus two pictures!

First up, my new fuel line fitting to the carb with the new fuel pressure gauge:



Next, my finished decklid! (well, finished painting and such, still need to move the lock and electric release over to it next).



Jeff had been out there some last week (not sure if he's been out there this week or not) and found the short - the wire coming off the battery to power the water pump had worn through coming through the firewall, and was touching the metal there.

So - to my knowlege, here's what's left to get done:

Things left to do (at Vixen):
Reassemble the interior - again
Fabricate relay-n-oil sensor bracket (Joe says it's done, but I haven't seen it)
Heater core hookup to water pump
Brake bleed
Refill cooling system and reburp it
Transmission fluid filled
Reconnect A/C lines to compressor
Throttle return springs
Move lock and electric release to finished decklid.

Then off to get it inspected, then to an A/C shop to vacuum the lines and recharge the system. -- well, at least the list shrunk a tiny bit.


MooCow (kmusk01@gmail.com) MSG #78, 10-28-2010 01:59 PM
      WOW just caught up on your post. Hopefully you get your car back soon. Give me a heads up next time you are down this way. Hopefully if I am around I can stop over at the shop.

Glad to see the list is getting smaller.

Ken~


Trinten MSG #79, 10-31-2010 07:50 PM
      I was out there yesterday for about 9 hours. Didn't feel like we got much done, but I guess that's bound to happen.

I had an (initially very confusing) conversation with Joe on the wiring. By the time we got on the same page, I understand that all the electrical is working the way it should, but from my emails with Jeff, he still had to finish making sure the short wouldn't reoccur.

Jeff had said he would be out there around "lunchtime", however later on he told me (via email) and John (another guy there, working on a Monster Miata), via text that he was out there in the morning and no one was there, and Joe didn't leave him the key (Which confirmed as true, Joe blamed his mom, said she might have taken it to get in at some point). John (with the Miata) then explained he had a key and lived five minutes away, so we made sure to let Jeff know that if he ever gets there and can't get in... to just call him and he'd come out to let him in - then he can finish the wiring issue and put the interior back together (and work on the Miata's wiring).

Swaybar issues (ultimately fixed). Joe realized it was on upside down. There's a... "bent notch" in the swaybar for where the exhaust pipe passes. I hadn't noticed it when I got it it bolted to the chassis the first time.. and of course we discover it as we're bolding it to the arms. So we undo that, flip it around, bolt the bastard back up.. and then dick with the arms again. Definitely a learning experience as things we did to make it easier to line stuff up ultimately worked against us. Joe got it fixed in the end though, which I'm grateful for, I was really frustrated with it! That damn thing ate up at least two hours.

With Joes help I got the A/C lines in place, which is great. There's still one more wire that needs to be hooked up to the compressor, Jeff is going to need to come up with a different way to fit/crimp/connect it, though. Damn I hope this compressor is good. Getting this thing replaced would be a ***** . It should be good, it's the same one that came out of my car originally, but it's been sitting for a few years.

Brakes are bled, transmission fluid is in.

We tried to bleed the clutch... I was getting ZERO pedal resistance! It was light as air. We tried bleeding it the traditional way for about an hour with no results, and the travel of the slave cylinder wasn't even an inch (from what Joe was saying - I was pumping/holding the pedal). This is confusing to me, since at no point would anything of the clutch system have been "open". So not sure how it got this soft to begin with.

I called CowsPatoot (Greg), and he said that he's never had luck doing it that way, and uses a vaccuum line. So we went to a few auto-parts places till we found one that had one, and hooked it up, and followed Gregs recommendations. The crap in my clutch system is BLACK. Very icky looking. Not sure how normal that is. Joe said the system used brake fluid, so as we vaccuumed garbage out, I was watching the Master Cylinder and topping it off as it slowly lowered. No leaks anywhere that we can see.

Joe climbed under the dash and saw that the rod that comes through the firewall from the master cylinder is bent. He thinks that's the issue... but I don't think so. There was no pressure in moving the rod AT ALL so this did not happen yesterday - my guess is that it's been that way for a while, the pedal did used to travel a bit before the clutch engaged, I just thought it was normal. Apparently not.

Greg also agreed to come out there with me next weekend and help me with odds and ends and stuff like the clutch and the electrical/interior if Jeff doesn't get out there during the week to get it done. Very grateful for that.

Joe was unusually bent towards getting the clutch issue fixed so he could crank the engine (again bringing up doubt that he ever had it running before... and not something I confronted him with, just not worth it). He kept falsely insisting it was "practically the last thing to do." So I set my foot down and rattled off the remaining things to do, after each item he'd say "Yeah." so when I was done, I said "So there you go, alot of stuff for you to get finished first, then we can worry about the clutch!" his reply? "My work week is going to be boring, then." .... I didn't make a comment besides saying "It's all stuff that needs to get done anyway, and that I can't do."

Joe also said that he didn't like the way the bracket for the oil sender and relays looked. He redid some wiring so the relays went back to their stock location. He showed me a few things he wanted to do with the oil sender and I told him, definitively, what I wanted it to be like. He agreed.

Also Joe started getting the modified carpet into the modified trunk. I worked on that for a bit, trying to finish the fit. It's still a long way from looking good, but I got it all "laying" now, which is great.

But a few more things off my list! Things left to currently do (assuming no more hangups or setbacks):

Touch up the hood (Joe spotted some places that he needed to spray a little more clear and rebuff, found that out yesterday)
Finish paintjob on the decklid ( I thought it was painted already by the pics, but it wasn't).
Reassemble the interior
Fabricate bracket/mount oil sending unit
Heater core hookup to water pump
Refill cooling system and reburp it
Throttle return springs (figured out how to do this, just need to get it done, car was up in the air too much to set it up)
Move lock and electric release to finished decklid.

Then off to get it inspected, then to an A/C shop to vacuum the lines and recharge the system -- and pray the compressor works.


Trinten MSG #80, 11-04-2010 03:45 PM
      In light of this weekend, and the possibility of replacing my slave and master clutch cylinders, I have ordered replacements for both, plus gotten the MR2 piston to upgrade the slave. If you have no idea what I'm talking about, check out this thread:

http://gafieroclub.org/bbs/index.php?topic=66.0

I got the piece from OReilly's for 7 bucks!

http://www.oreillyauto.com/...9&pt=01353&ppt=C0015

Greg (CowsPatoot) is still going to try to bleed things, but given that I got a bent arm from the master, and slave is pretty much just surface rust... might be time for a change. lol

A thank you to Greg for helping me out with the clutch stuff, and both TopNotch (for the thread and answering my questions about his upgrade) and Capt Fiero for answering my clutch questions.

Oh! Some places have the updated master clutch cylinder for over a hundred bucks, found it at napa for 30-odd dollars.

Part numbers from Napa for the slave and master for the 4 speed:
NNC 39719
NNC 37795

Capt Fiero had made some recomendations on what to cross reference for the parts, which I tried to find without much success (I could have been doing it wrong and/or the places I talked to were doing it wrong), in one instance where I lucked out, it was around 110 bucks. So for right now, given how quickly I needed the part, I'm hoping that the 30 dollar part holds up. If time was not so much an issue, I would have taken his recommendations!


L67 (pchaskin@uncc.edu) MSG #81, 11-05-2010 12:34 PM
      You really should use one of Rodney's new slaves. The cast iron bore gets really nasty over the years, albeit the lower seal on the MR2 piston will help scrape it clean and prevent the top seal from leaking. Wayne had me install one on his GT. I took it apart to look at everything and its a great design for the money.

http://realfierotech.com/ph...=14&t=16812&p=138074


Trinten MSG #82, 11-07-2010 10:33 AM
      Joe finished fabricating the piece to get the last two water hoses hooked up to the water pump. So a little work and some hose clamps later, that was done!

Now getting the last screw for the water pump in place was a PAIN. It had an allen-key head, and was too close to everything else to get a rachet up there. The screw was also too close to pump housing to replace it with a bolt and use an open ended wrench. The Solution? Joe cut off the right sized allen key head, and quickly welded it into a tiny wrench. I got under the car after finding a good position to get at it, and started working on it. It was very, very slow. Only a quarter turn each time, and sometimes getting the tool to line up and seat in the screw was tough. But I eventually got it!

I then began filling the cooling system... and didn't know/remember that my new radiator had a drain valve on the bottom of it. Thankfully I could feel it from under the car and screwed it shut, but lost about a half gallon of fluid. The rear of the car was jacked up at this time and I was filling it through the big hose that runs from the top of the engine block to the radiator. Once it reached the top of the radiator, we capped it and stopped (for then) since it was still in the air.

Wires for the thermostat are connected and I managed to zip tie them up out of the way (very difficult, required using four zip ties to "fish" the line over and then back down to where I could grab it).

Greg masterfully put in my new master and slave clutch with the MR2 piston with the double seal. After about 45 minutes of uncertain panic, the clutch worked correctly (short-full version -Greg was worried that my hydraulic throwout bearing was not in there, and pondering the easiest way to get in the transmission).

After that, I asked him to reassemble the interior, thinking that Jeff told me that he found and fixed the short. At the end of the night, when we were working on getting power to the secondary fuel pump... Greg discovered the short (again), when the wires he was going to tap were energized and shouldn't have been. He has a nifty voltemeter that has an sound-alarm-warning for when doing continuity testing, so after some back and for between us, him running through the fuses in the car, and us tapping and unplugging stuff in the engine bay - we found the culprit! --- the two ****ing red wires that run from the key relay to power the water pump and electric choke on my car.

It was too late at night to re-tear the interior apart any further than the armrest/glovebox thingie. Greg though said he'd coordinate with Joe to be back out there on Thursday and hunt down the short.

I did test my headlights though. I'm glad I managed to install/wire something up correctly and without any major issues. One was a bit delayed from the other, but the motors haven't run in over a year, and I probably need to play with how tight I have them cranked at the hinges, maybe a little lubrication.

The decklid had some bizarre reaction to the paint in some areas... it was... really, really weird looking. I should have taken a picture. So Joe started to sand down those spots, and laid on some more primer, and will be repainting those places.

I picked up some butt crimp connectors to get that last wire for the A/C, didn't get to that yet. This late in the year, not too worried about getting the A/C working, just keeping my hopes up that the compressor is good when I *do* use it next year.

Got everything ready for my throttle-spring-return, just need to screw it into place and do a final check on it (couldn't due to the car being jacked up the majority of the day again.

So the list shrunk... and then grew again!!! Gahhh!

But a HUGE thanks to Greg (CowsPatoot) for taking up 13 hours of his day, PLUS travel, to help me out. And going back out there to finish chasing down the wiring nightmares. Sharon (FierFly on Pennocks) came along too.


Trinten MSG #83, 11-14-2010 12:47 AM
      The car is up and running. There are still things left to be re-snugged (valve covers, for one... that's going to be a challenge). The decklid is receiving it's final coat of clear tonight and will be put on tomorrow and then I will be leaving with the car (lots of issues with the final paint on the decklid).

Found out that I have a very, very tiny axel seal leak. And my A/C Compressors SQUEELS!!! Oh it's horrible... it's not constant, but close enough. Joe is worried that it's from a bad bearing, I'm wondering if it's from being unhooked for so long and not lubricated. Is there a way to lubricate that thing without getting it charged?

I will make an uber post tomorrow, after I've gotten some sleep, and I'm sure CowsPatoot will chime in with my errors and additional info I forgot.

A massive, MASSIVE "Thank you" to CP again for all the help. It'd probably be there for another three weeks or so if not for his efforts. And thank you for answering all my questions and being a generally good sport.


Trinten MSG #84, 11-14-2010 06:54 PM
     
Okay, here's part of the rundown.

Thursday - I was feeling kinda crappy, general malaise and having focus issues. In my job, rapidly juggling multiple data sources accurately - sometimes while on the phone as well, is a requirement. So not being able to stay focused could mean that 'big trouble' mistakes could happen. I finished what work I had, and then left for the day. Tooling around on the car takes focus, but not normally having to rapidly juggle multiple things.

So I headed down to the shop to meet up with Greg and Sharon. Greg had a solid 2.5 hours on me, so he'd need to fill in what he was up to besides the following. The two wires that ran from the cabin into the engine compartments, one was for my electric choke, the other for the water pump. He was pulling through a slightly heavier gauge wire and cleaning up the connections, as well as checking pretty much all of the wiring in the car. I pulled up stats on the water pump and fuel pump so we cold make sure they'd be properly fused and (in the case of the fuel pump) hooked into something that could support it's power draw.

I then got the E-brake coupler put on, and continued filling up the coolant system. To hear fluid dribbling out. Again. Only this time I wasn't so lucky as to have it be an open valve or loose hose clamp. I also got the throttle return spring bracket in place.

Some SBC blocks have a second, much smaller hole, tapped into the water jacket. My old block did not, my new block did. Joe noticed the hole, but assumed that it had been plugged. It hadn't been. He had the right kind of plug for it... unfortunately the arm of the waterpump covered the hole by a fraction, making it impossible to get the plug in with the pump on. Figures.

So going back to using the handtool that Joe crafted to slowly work out the tough-to-get bottom bolt, and than a combination of hand tools and sockets to get out the other three from up top. Then of course we had to dry out the area so when we put in the plug (with some RTV on it) it would seat properly and the RTV would be making contact with the block. Since we were reusing the seal on the water pump, we smeared a super thin layer of RTV on both sides of that, too. Just to be safe. Because getting this pump off took over an hour.

Putting it back on went faster, Joe did the top-access bolts while I worked on the bolt-of-doom. Joe did manage to find a bolt that had a small enough hex head so that a wrench could get on it, so that went faster than the hex-head bolt it came with. We then finished filling the cooling system, with only a few dribbles and drips from hose clamps that needed to be turned down a little more.

So now, the electric was mostly done - we had to rule out one "false" short, Greg would need to explain it again, but something about the "open door" sensor running through a relay along with the gauges that can cause a false short/continuity. So the interior stayed apart, and the fuse pulled from the gauges for now. Greg finished wiring in the Holley fuel pump.

So we kicked the car to "Run" (didn't crank it yet) to make sure the pumps were running, and to make sure that the cooling system was filled properly. Once that was done we disconnected the distributor so we could crank it a bit in short bursts to push oil back up and coat things. I hit the key and the starter made a horrible grinding sound, I stopped immediately. It was also "weak" sounding, so the battery charger went on. Another attempt a little while later, same grinding sound, so we called it a night till we could look at the starter the next day.

Friday - Joe climbed under the car and found that the starter (which is bolted to a block of billet and that is bolted to the bell housing) was not engaging the flywheel - just the tips were catching each other. So after about an hour or so of messing with that, the starter was dead on.

We then connected the distributor back up and fired it up! It started without any trouble, though we did have some fuel pressure issues. Scott - the guy who built the engine, came over after he closed shop to check things out. He helped with chasing/fixing some dribbles, and got the carb tuned. He found that at least one of the jets was clogged - dust/dirt/carbon from sitting around for a year+, and we got it to clear itself some. He showed me how to adjust the idle speed, saying it'd need to be tweaked as the carb worked the rest of the garbage out. A can of SeaFoam went into the tank to help with that.

The decklid was still giving Joe issues. Whatever was contaminating it was causing the primer and paint to come up in spots like dried mud. He kept sanding, cleaning, and trying again, each time with better results. He finally got all of it to lay nice, but since he shop wasn't heated and he was trying to spray on the clear Saturday night, the clear was a bit chilly and I got some "orange peel" going on. He didn't have time to redress my hood, which has areas that need to be re-sprayed with clear.

Saturday - Greg came out again to help get the interior back together, brought me an InfiniteWill trunk seal, and a bunch of other little odds and ends to finish getting the trim pieces on and in place. After that was all done, and another engine run and checking for drips, I baby'd it around the parking lot to make sure the gears were shifting right. Discovered the brakes had to be bleed again.

Thankfully I had picked up a MightyVac, so Greg was able to tear through bleeding the brakes in no time (and teflon taped the bleed screws to help deal with air getting pulled in around them by the vac.) So completely fresh fluid for the clutch and brakes, yay!

We then took it down the road a bit to see how it handled and to find out how badly it needed an alignment. Because the front suspension had gone untouched, it wasn't too bad at all - he still said I should have it checked to be sure. We found out the hardway that my headlights need some serious time being adjusted. And it's not terribly easy to do them with the Hella lamps I got. I'll probably need to pop off the headlight covers in order to do it quickly, or else it'll be alot of "hood down, check. hood up, adjust. repeat."

The car is now home today! Picked it up and helped Joe put the decklid on. SOMEONE lifted the car by the latch, as we had to hammer the latch down a bit to get it to catch correctly - this despite my instructions to both Joe and Jeff to not do that.

I have Rodney Dickmans hydraulic decklid lifter on there, but I think it needs to be adjusted. When I pop the trunk it doesn't go up, once I lift it about an inch or so it starts to push it up. It makes using the electric-release... well, unusable! Drove nearly 100 miles, the engine temp never got above 170. AND!!! NO SQUEEL!!! No idea why, but I am NOT complaining!!

Also, no HORRIBLE cabin drone at 45 mph. Driving it I did not find ANY speed that I got drone, but the mufflers did not quiet it down as much as I hoped. So now I'll need to revisit putting more stuff in the engine side of the firewall and behind/under the seats in the cabin to try to quiet it down. Cruising you can still have a reasonable conversation - highway speeds it gets alot tougher.

Things left to do now:

Inspection.
A/C recharge.
Replace Gregs InfiniteWill trunk seal.
Headlight adjustment.
transmission axle seals.
Replace all the coolant piping with the stainless steel stuff from Fiero store.
Alignment.

I think that's it, then the car is done until I get the EFI swap ready to go! Maybe brakes first. Debating on that.



CowsPatoot MSG #85, 11-14-2010 11:17 PM
      Any new issues come up on the way home?

Just a couple things to add...

Proof that Vince CAN turn a wrench...


Startup and exhaust note.....


First drive around the parking lot...


The first drive on the road...

[This message has been edited by CowsPatoot (edited 11-14-2010).]

Trinten MSG #86, 11-15-2010 02:31 PM
      Hehehe, thanks for the pics and video!

And yes. I can turn a wrench. After many questions and a tutorial...

But seriously, my fear is more from not knowing what I"m turning a wrench on, which could result in broken stuff. Never good.

Now trying to figure out why I'm not getting notifications on posts to my own thread.... lol

No issues on the way home, just still a few little dribbles as I mentioned, and that one drip-rail-trim-piece-thingie on the passanger side likes to keep popping part way off. I think it's because that rear quarter panel on that side is sitting about a 1/4 inch lower than it should. You can see the drop now that the decklid is on there.
No squeel on the way home earlier, either. Though this morning when I did the "Car shuffle" to get the Town Car out, it was come-and-go.

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 11-15-2010).]

Trinten MSG #87, 11-20-2010 09:16 PM
      Okay, so drove the car to work yesterday without any issues, the voltmeter was sitting steady at 14/15 (one to two tick marks after 13). Not a squeel, not a peep.

I leave work, and notice the needle is now sitting *right* on 13. I didn't pay it much mind. (also had a the arm pop off a headlight motor. Need to get a retaining clip for that apparently).

Today on the way to Koreys meet... the needle sat at 11/12. On the way home... it started off at 11, and slowly dropped down to betwen between 9 and 10 (all highway driving, goosing the gas had no impact on the needle).

Not only is this troubling, but as an added annoyance, it made my signals blink about ONCE A MINUTE! lol

Now there is a little oil getting out from under my valve covers.. is it possible some is hitting my belt and making it too slick to spin the alternator at proper speed? Or is this alternator a dud -- meaning I need to find that receipt...!

Any input would be greatly appreciated.


L67 (pchaskin@uncc.edu) MSG #88, 11-20-2010 10:12 PM
      Belts chirp when they slip.

Pop it off and take it to a local parts store which can do an electrical load test. It also helps to mention which kind of alternator it is. SI (one wire) alternators are incredibly straightforward, but CS style alternators and the like require a constant power feed to energize the rotor. I've had my share of alternator troubles in the past, and your description sounds like faulty equipment, but I don't know how your charging system is setup. It's possible you have a poor ground or small diameter wire that's generating resistance. First step: find out if the generator passes the load test.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 11-20-2010).]

Trinten MSG #89, 11-20-2010 11:44 PM
      Heya!

Due to concerns of having to make changes to make anything else fit and wanting to get the car done ASAP (by that time, at least), I had just gotten a new stock replacement alternator for the Fiero from O'Reillys. It was an Ultima 94 amp alternator. I wanted to do one of those CS-144 (I think it's the 144??) but didn't want to add another wrinkle to the progress at that time.

http://www.oreillyauto.com/...7&pt=01468&ppt=C0330

Joe had to change the pulley, swapped it off my old one.

As for taking it off... it'll probably have to be driven/towed someplace to have that done. I'll have to ask a few people if/when they'd be able to help me with it. Depending on how far I have to take it, I might finally use my AAA to do it... with the power running low, the engine is running hotter - likely because the water pump and radiator fan aren't running at full capacity.


L67 (pchaskin@uncc.edu) MSG #90, 11-21-2010 12:58 AM
      Very likely that it's the voltage regulator then.

[This message has been edited by L67 (edited 11-21-2010).]

Trinten MSG #91, 11-21-2010 01:23 AM
      Which is inside the darn alternator. Figures. lol. Thanks for the info!

I will slide under there tomorrow to check the connections just in case, but it was new ground cables and such hooked up, the positive cable was reused. I'll keep my fingers crossed that something just came loose.

Thank you very much for the suggestions and info! (and hope I can find the receipt so I can get a refund if it's not just a loose/corroded connection...)



Trinten MSG #92, 11-22-2010 08:50 PM
      Okay, got my two test LED bulbs from SuperbrightLEDS today. I bought one each of the following:
1157-R45-T
1157-R24-WV "WIDE" Polarized

The R45-T is much like the ones I got for my PONTIAC emblem (WLED-RHP9 "Pure Red"), only with more LEDs and the proper base.

The WV is sorta like a flashlight LED, with all of the bulbs pointing in the same direction. Since the inside of the housing isn't reflective, I thought they might be better. I was wrong.

In the following pic - the top is my original 2057 bulbs.

The bottom - the two "inside" bulbs are still the 2057. The one on the outside left is the WV, the outside right is the R45. You can see that the difference in brightness between the 2057 and R45 is subtle (in the R45 favor), but HUGE between the WV and 2057 (in the 2057 favor). This applied even running around my street like an idiot checking at different angles.

Plus, as Ogre warns in his write up, they are not TOO bright, as to make it tough to judge the distance between the back of my car and any following vehicle. So I guess I'm ordering three more of the R45s!!



CowsPatoot MSG #93, 12-04-2010 10:18 PM
      We did an alternator swap. While we had the old one out, we had it tested at Advance Auto....it tested good. We decided to continue with the swap anyway to get the higher amps of the CS. We put in a 140 amp CS Power Master alternator from Summit. We pulled the plug off a spare 88 harness I had, and wired it up. Fired it up, and we had 15 volts. Woo hoo. So, Vince pulled out to head home. He got to the stop sign, realized his blinkers weren't working, and saw that it had dropped to under 13 volts again. Same problem as before.

I am at a loss. Not so much that it isn't working (there could be a wiring issue anywhere else in the car), but more because it worked for a moment, then died again. I am pulling out the wiring diagrams....but would love to have some ideas on where to start.


Trinten MSG #94, 03-01-2011 04:52 PM
      So just thought I'd throw a quick post up.

The charging issue is still being investigated by Greg (CowsPatoot). To my understanding - he's chased and tested everything out the engine bay for the issue, and all that stuff looks good, so he thinks the issue might be in the engine wiring harness.

He has removed my existing harness and took one of his spares, and is in the process of building a new cleaned up harness for me! No more snipped and electric-taped off wires!

If this - for some strange reason doesn't fix the charging issue, at least it'll make it easier to chase things down.

He also knows a guy near him that can lengthen my A/C hoses! Greg is really going all out on getting things fixed up and tweaked. I can't express my appreciation enough.

I just really hope once this charging issue is fixed, it'll be the last (difficult) problem to creep up for a long, long time...


Trinten MSG #95, 03-16-2011 01:50 PM
      Finally heard back from the guy who has my F23!!

He got it all apart and inspected and said it looks great, if I wanted to be paranoid I could stand to replace the synchros. He's going to pull the gears off the main shaft so I can send the gears off to be shot peened and cryotreated, and just having the main shaft cryo treated. Then once I get those back, he'll put the whole thing back together for me and I can start making arrangements to have it installed!

CowsPatoot is making progress on the new harness, hoping that resolves the charging issue - or at least makes it easier to find.


Trinten MSG #96, 05-10-2011 04:11 PM
      And it's finally coming home tonight!

A/C should be working, Charging issue is fixed!

Mechanically, with the exception of a small/slow trans fluid leak around the seals, and having to retorque the valve covers... it's all working now!

The F23 is being reassembled, I wanted to hold off on putting it in until I got the LSD for it, but since the Muncie would need to come out to have the seals done (right?) I figured I'd just move ahead with the new transmission getting put in for now.

Got TLG's markers in the front, had to drop him a PM about an issue with the rear ones. Also got his courtesy lights and the trunk light. The stuff that hooked up right is very slick. Also got all the lights in the back of the car replaced with nifty LEDs, save the Amber (wrong base, my fault) and the backups (which I didn't see a point to doing).

Still quite a bit I want to do to it... but I'm just thrilled I can drive it! (with a top off on transmission fluid every 6 months or so for now. heh).



Trinten MSG #97, 09-06-2011 04:14 PM
      So instead of updating two threads in two places, here's the link to the thread I've been updating more frequently!

http://ncmidengine.47.forum...?f=11&t=14&start=150



fieroguru MSG #98, 09-06-2011 05:10 PM
      Pics! Pics! Pics!
BTW, the collector bolts like to back out. It is best to either double nut them or safety wire them.


Trinten MSG #99, 09-07-2011 07:47 PM
      Hey Guru!

Yeah, one of them there isn't enough room to double nut it. If I loose any more, I'll definitely find some bolts that have that safety-wire option. I think ARP actually made some specifically for that... I might have to hunt them down.

Pics! There are some pics in the linked thread. I don't have a decent camera. Just my lousy camera phone -- I lost my digital camera when we moved to Greensboro. I know Paul is going to have a lot of pics in his tutorial thread on the F23 swap, though!

As for vanity pics... my car is so filthy right now. lol. I haven't had a chance to get it washed, every weekend I've been pretty busy. Maybe this weekend! Maybe.


Trinten MSG #100, 05-13-2012 02:01 PM
      As excited as I am to just blurt out the numbers it put down, here's the events of the day.

Woke up at a horribly early time (for me), to be at Pro-Dyno by 9am (which is when he said for us to get there). Pro Dyno does tuning as well as has a full service performance shop. We get there about 5 minutes late, and there's a fox body Mustang on the dyno already, just built and in to be tuned.

So while Dan (the owner and head tuner, and all around a nice guy) worked on that, Brian went about putting on the bigger injectors and MAF on his T-bird that was getting retuned today (awesome news on that too).

The Mustang (which was up there for nearly two hours after we got there) had a calamity, due to a wastegate malfunction, so was trailered. By this time Brian had the new injectors and MAF in.

Dan told us he had another job that was going to be real quick, then he'd focus on ours. It was a brand new Mustang with very little done, mod wise. And it was on and off there very quickly.

Dan rolls Brians T-bird on there next, which had a mild peak increase, but a fantastic overall curve increase on the rest of the band, up around 30 HP/TQ in some places.

My turn. He gets in the Fiero and starts it up, and gives me this surprised look. "It sounds like an old Corvette! What the hell do you got in here?" "You'll see."

He gets it up on the Dyno and I open the trunk. He looks around, hops down, goes to the shop side, and calls all of them over to check it out. So that was pretty cool. They hung around for the first pull.

Wideband o2 goes in, wire reader (for the RPM) goes on, he starts it up, and looks at the screen funny -- because it's showing 18.5 on the AFR. He calls out to one of the other guys. "You got that sensor in right?" "Yeah!"

He gives it a little gas, and the AFR starts to get better, he gradually speeds it up, bringing it up to around 3k, and calls out to me. "What's your redline?" "6500!" he raises his brow and gives me the 'not-bad-nod', and starts sharply accelerating, my AFR gets rich... real rich, real fast.

Second pull, he only goes up to 4th gear.

Third pull, still only goes up to 4th, but gets on it harder. Shuts it down, gets out and says "We normally only put up the cars we tune on Facebook, but this thing is going on there!" he looks at one of his employees "Get this on there, call it Monster Fiero or something like that."

So the employee takes a few pictures and goes about doing that. Dan looks at me.

"Your primary jets are too lean, your secondaries are WAY too rich. I could feel it bogging down when they kicked in." and he shows me the AFR fuel line thingie, and explains more of it to me, and ends with "So get the jetting on the primary brought up a little, and on the secondary brought down a little." "How much more power will that get me? Like 3 or 4?" Dan shook his head. "Try 10 or 20." "Seriously?" "Seriously. Get it done."

So now that you know that my car impressed a guy who builds and tunes performance cars all day long, and knowing that there's more power to be had... the numbers! Dun Dun DUNNNN:

371 HP at a little over 6k, and 381 Torque at right on 4.75k.

Already called Scott and left him a voicemail to see about getting the jetting changed on the carb, and then going to go back.

Besides that awesome news, I"m even more excited about the fact that Scott told me once I get the fuel injection done, my curve will likely be much better, and I'll probably make better peak power. So I'm really glad I'm getting this carb dynos done so I have some before and afters.

The dynograph I have is printed on some glossy paper, but I don't think it'll cause any issues with scanning, going to try to get that done now and I'll get it up.

Edit: Here's the dyno sheet! I rotated it in Webshots, so the quality dropped some, but it's still readable. I can always turn on my PC with a real photo program and re-upload it if anyone thinks it's necessary.



My roommate had taken some video of the car on the Dyno, here are the two videos he shot. He was already hit up by a well-known Fiero Troll, one of the more active members over on RFT - I'm sure that's all I need to say for everyone here to know exactly who I'm talking about. lol Here's the video links.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=xn14-N7lT64

www.youtube.com/watch?v=sntUSz-86b8


fieroguru MSG #101, 05-13-2012 06:14 PM
      Those are some pretty good numbers! Dial in the A/F ratio to 13.0 : 1 and you might get real close to breaking 400 whp. With the stock wheels, that thing has to be scary on the street.

Do you know the camshaft and heads you are running?


Trinten MSG #102, 05-13-2012 06:39 PM
      Hey Guru!

Comp Cams 280 XFI HR13 with their lifters as well. Heads are AFR 195cc Eliminator heads.


Edit: Actually it's pretty well behaved on the street, just a tad louder than I'd like. Easing it into first from a dead stop without making a bunch of racket, or without the engine bogging/car jerking is tough. Outside of that, with the Yokohamas I have on there, it's been a great little street car. But then again, I try to limit my stupidity to the track.

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 05-13-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #103, 05-13-2012 07:36 PM
      That low rpm jerking is probably due to the lean A/F mixure or too much low rpm ignition advance for the camshaft. Tweak those two and you will greatly improve your drive-ability.

Have you put enough miles on it to know what kind of mpg it will get on the highway?



Trinten MSG #104, 05-13-2012 07:56 PM
      Yes! I've been driving it around for a while now. At one point I got about 21 MPG, however, that was mostly highway. After my friend Ted adjusted the spark timing on it and played with the carb some last weekend, I noticed that the MPG has fallen down to around 19 - again, mostly highway driving. By mostly highway, I am referring to trips of 90 miles or more, with only two-four miles of it being stop-and-go to get on, or off, the highways.

I just wish Ted had picked up on the A/F thing, but it's not like he has a whole lot of high end tools, we were working with just a vacuum gauge. lol


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #105, 08-28-2012 08:09 PM
      Progress on getting your tune dialed in?

Trinten MSG #106, 08-28-2012 08:17 PM
      Hey Will!

Yes! I'm sorry I forgot to update this thread (I've been keeping it updated on the ncfiero forum). Here's the consolidated posts from that:

This was posted there on August 11th:

Alright! Got to Pro Dyno about fifteen minutes early, Scott was running about 15 minutes behind. Dan pulled the Fiero up onto the dyno and got it all setup. All in all, we did about 3 "cruise runs" (going at a normal acceleration to 70 mph to watch A/F) and 6 pulls.

Air temp was about the same as it was last time I was there, but the humidity was double!

When Scott showed up, he had Dan run a pull first to get a baseline. I was shocked to see how much of a difference humidity can make - down 14 HP and Torque!



From here on out, Scott changed the springs, metering rods, adjusted the idle, and played with timing. After the A/F was pretty much nailed down he tried adjusting the timing, first pushing it up two degrees, then back two, to see if it liked it any better. The "blue line" pull in the upcoming scan is from the advanced timing - I wonder if the dip and odd behavior of the car is when the belt popped off.

That's right, the belt popped off. Thankfully didn't snap. Just popped off. Dan didn't notice it because he's staring out the driving side window watching the computer monitors during the run. We didn't notice till he backed the car off and we saw the belt laying there. So Scott was wondering if it would have done better with that little bit more timing (or just in general), since it would have full juice coming from the alternator to the ignition system, and not just from the battery. Despite this, the engine made a horsepower more and the same amount of torque - in other words, we picked up 15 HP and 14 torque from the baseline.

Regardless, he set the timing back to where it was to start with, and we did a final pull, from "the blue pull" as a guide I lost 10 HP and 7 torque, but no oddities with the engine.



I debated on asking Dan to put it back on there when I got the belt back on (he was nice enough to loan me a floor jack, stand, wrench, and pry bar), so Scott could bump the timing again, but he was already occupied with something in the build-side of his shop when I was finished.

Regardless, after Scott was done, it was back near what it put down under better conditions, and Dan agreed - "You put it up here at 70 degrees and 19% humidity, it'll be a huge difference."

So picked up roughly 10 HP and 10 ft/lbs torque, and might have better mileage now that the A/F is fixed. Along with the possibility of another 5 HP/TQ lurking in the timing. I doubt I'll have a chance to put it on a dyno again before the EFI, but if I do, I'll bump the timing and see what it does.

If those gains translate directly (which I don't know if it works that way), that puts my car at around 381 HP and 391 ft/lbs torque in 28% humidity (versus the 48%-56% today).

Now just to wait and see how my gas mileage does, how it does at the track in a few weeks, and what it puts down once the EFI is on there!

*end of that post*

I've had it to the track since then, slips up in the 1/4 mile thread. My gas mileage dropped about 1 mpg on the highway. Though that was driving up into West Viriginia, so I'm not sure what kind of impact the mountains would have had on my MPG, compared to the (relatively) flat highways I normally drive on.

Also busted a tripod at the track (hope that's all it is, troubleshot it on the phone with CowsPatoot), so looking into doing the tripod swap from the Berettas in the short term, see how they hold up. If I get more failures there, I'll see if the DSS axles have upgraded tripods too, or if their strength rating is just for the actual axle.

Thinking about trying to figure out how to do a "Safety loop" for the axles, near the transmission, so if it breaks in a really bad spot, it won't whip around and smash my transmission.


Trinten MSG #107, 07-21-2013 05:05 PM
      So, no updates because nothing much has been going on! (Except I need to redo the pictures, since webshots closed their doors, and all the picture links are broken)

Between work, family and the next step of my car requiring someone with far better skills than I, just not much has happened.

But starting this Wednesday, that will change!

Someone with commendable skills (and equipment) at his disposal, agreed to do my EFI swap, get my A/C working, redo my exhaust a bit (to try to make it quieter without constriction, and ceramic coat it), dyno tune, and get it setup with a freaking sweet Serpentine belt setup, with an idler pulley! So no more squeaky belt! No more belts snapping (as often)! Better arrangement of my coolant pipes!

Plus he's going to put my stock decklid on there, which is not in as nice condition as my current one (current one has a relatively new coat of paint), but if the scoop isn't functional/necessary, I don't see a reason to keep it on.

He knows I pay for quality work, and that I wouldn't haggle with him over the cost, and I think that's why he took the job.

He said he was also going to clean up the engine bay, move the C500 connector, and remotely setup my water pump.

I'm not saying who it is yet, because I don't know if he wants to publicize that he's doing this work for me just yet.

Oh! He's also going to be putting in my rockers and the stock-height valve covers - when I bought my valvetrain setup, I didn't realize that everything was designed for 1.6 rockers, and I bought 1.5 rockers. There's some other stuff I've asked him about too, but I'm going to wait on posting the full list after it's all said and done.

Yes, I'm one of those guys that mostly "just write checks", but I always give credit where it's due, and would rather see it done with fantastic results the first time (and not have to worry about it breaking), getting that piece of mind, rather than the sense of accomplishment that comes with trying to do this stuff myself (most of which I couldn't, anyway... it would require a bunch of machining equipment).



fieroguru MSG #108, 07-25-2013 07:56 PM
      This thread needs some pictures!

As Trinten stated above, his SBC/F23 car is finally going to get some proper attention and love. His car showed up at the house today and kicked the LS4/F40 car out of the garage for a few months.


The car already has a pretty stout engine with the chassis dyno chart to prove it (371 whp), so its doesn't need much upgrading there (roller rockers and valve springs). I get the honor of performing the upgrade to fuel injection to this setup while refining the rest of the swap into something he can be proud to show off.

The fuel injection conversion will use a modified Holley Stealth Ram intake controlled via an LS1 ecm. Here is a teaser pic:


It will also have the mounting system reworked (engine isn't level), the coolant system revised, the accessory drive converted to serpentine, the exhaust reworked and the engine bay detailed in similar fashion as my LS4/F40 swap... Stay tuned.



Trinten MSG #109, 07-25-2013 09:36 PM
      Guru is crazy-efficient. That car was in his driveway around 4pm Eastern today (I know, I called CowsPatoot, who transported it on his trailer, a few minutes to 5pm, and he was saying they were just getting ready to leave after he zipped around in my car a bit chasing Guru's Fiero). So in three hours, he has:

Gone over my intake system.
Inspected my car.
Detailed some issues with it, sent me a VERY thorough PM about all of his findings and questions.
Drove it to use up some of the gas in the tank (I had a near full tank, but there's been so much rain in Charlotte for the last two months I haven't been able to drive it as much as I wanted)
Did his posts here with pictures. In less than 3 hours.

That's on par with L67 dropping the engine/cradle by himself in like, 90 minutes and sending me pictures of it, when he'd never really messed with a V8 Fiero before.

Thanks again to FieroGuru for taking this project on. I'm really looking forward to everything!!

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 07-25-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #110, 07-27-2013 05:22 PM
      Here are a few before pictures:



One of the more interesting aspects of this car is the electric water pump was bolted to the engine without cutting into the wheel well sheet metal. Instead to make the needed clearance they hammered the area outward for clearance. I hadn't ever seen one done this way and think this approach might be better than cutting the hole as it keeps the pump protected from wheel well debris. The pump will be remote mounted as part of the work.


Here is a teaser pic of what the engine swap will look like when done... HSR intake, upper plenum flipped, twin 58mm throttle body. The engine will be lowered as part of the rework to gain the needed clearance for this intake to clear the decklid. Disclaimer: the height of this particular HSR is 9", but a stock one is 10" tall. This intake was modified by gusshotrod to make it lower several years ago, and this modification is what allows it to have a chance of fitting w/o a decklid support notch.



fieroguru MSG #111, 07-28-2013 04:01 PM
      Prior to removing the engine, I added 2 bolts that show the clearance to the frame rail:


Engine/transmission/cradle are out:



The chassis already has a frame notch large enough for the serpentine conversion. It is actually a little too large, so I will add some metal back in to make it smaller and more visually appealing:


Engine/transmission/cradle off to the car wash:


Cradle fixture leveled and clamped to the table:


Engine/transmission/cradle just sitting on the cradle fixture. I need to bring the attachment brackets down from the attic and get it bolted down so I can start reworking the mounts to lower the drivetrain and square/level it as the same time:



fieroguru MSG #112, 08-05-2013 06:00 PM
      Here the drivetrain is mocked up sitting 1 1/4" lower than it was originally.


Due to the lowering and other items, I will be completely reworking the F23 mount setup for this car. No these mounts won't be transferable to other engine swaps nor will they be available for purchase for other F23 swaps. They will be one-off solid mounts for this SBC/F23 combo (I am not interested in developing an F23 kit).

To get it this low, I had to mill 1/2" off the bottom of the adapter plate, remove a couple of unused bolt bosses on the transmission and notch the driver side of the cradle. I will also need to modify the Archie engine mount as well. The cuts on the transmission will be cleaned up further and the cradle notch boxed in.






The EFI connection parts have arrived (vortec timing cover isn't shown, but is part of the kit):


Did a mockup of the serpentine balancer, sensor and timing cover. The edge of the balancer will be 2 3/8" from the machined face of the block. The Archie balancer was 2 1/4" (but not as tight to the engine as it could have been).



Also mocked up the distributor/cam sensor:



One of the hurdles is finding room for the IAC as it doesn't fit between the throttle body and the distributor cover. One option is to mod the distributor to be lower and the other is to remote mount the IAC valve somewhere else - like under the plenum between the two sets of runners and out of sight.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-05-2013).]

Trinten MSG #113, 08-05-2013 07:05 PM
      Thank you for the thread updates!

I was talking to CowsPatoot for a few minutes today and he asked me about it. So this is rather synchronicitous!


Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #114, 08-05-2013 07:16 PM
      i spy some fun mounted behind those throttle blades!

fieroguru MSG #115, 08-05-2013 07:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:

i spy some fun mounted behind those throttle blades!


I just got approval to remove those and will likely remove the aluminum angled spacer they are mounted to. They came with the intake setup, but are in the way of the distributor. I had to turn one of them so now it would spray toward cylinder #5 vs. towards the far back wall of the plenum.


Trinten MSG #116, 08-05-2013 07:59 PM
      Yup, it was neat that it came with the plate and the nozzles (and about a dozen jets), plus it came with the throttle switch, and some other misc. parts.

If I do decide to go with nitrous, there's other delivery systems I can look into. Always other power adders, too.


carbon MSG #117, 08-06-2013 10:37 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The car already has a pretty stout engine with the chassis dyno chart to prove it (371 whp), so its doesn't need much upgrading there (roller rockers and valve springs). I get the honor of performing the upgrade to fuel injection to this setup while refining the rest of the swap into something he can be proud to show off.

The fuel injection conversion will use a modified Holley Stealth Ram intake controlled via an LS1 ecm. Here is a teaser pic:




Awww... I thought you were going to First. I really wanted to see that... not gonna crap on the HSR though.

Thank you for this picture! I was curious to see where the F23 cables fell on other people's swaps and this is just what I needed to confirm my thoughts! Good bye stock air box!


Trinten MSG #118, 08-06-2013 08:57 PM
      Hey Carbon!

Yes, the F.I.R.S.T. intake was my original route - however I couldn't pass on the deal I got with that HSR setup, and from the information I could find with people that had played with both setups, the air flow and performance from both was very similar.


diabloroadster MSG #119, 08-06-2013 11:00 PM
      Great work as always guru! Love seeing a sbc getting a little update...

fieroguru MSG #120, 08-07-2013 08:57 PM
      Knocked out the reluctor, timing cover, and balancer setup as well as the AC clutch conversion today.

The wheel needed to be between 1.000 and 1.017, but this is where it was when I just slid in on the crankshaft:



So I started to take the lower timing gear off to machine it, then found that there was a spacer there already:




Removing this spacer allowed the reluctor to slide into place within the needed range (calipers were zero'd to the width of the ruler):




I shifted the Archie bracket down 1 hole so it cleared the crankshaft sensor:



Now to get the engine back down where it needs to be, I will end up trimming about 1/2" off the bottom of the Archie bracket and drilling 4 other holes in the bottom to mount it to the cradle:


So then the spacer needed trimmed slightly to properly position the balancer where it needed to be:


Now the balancer fits where it should be:




Then started working on converting the AC clutch to a serpentine version:





Now I need to pickup a serpentine pulley for the alternator at the alternator rebuilder in the morning and then start working on the needed spacers to get the pulleys lines up.


fieroguru MSG #121, 08-08-2013 07:46 PM
      The serpentine accessory fabrication is nearly complete. The specific details about this conversion are covered in this thread:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/118182.html

Only significant difference with this serpentine conversion vs. the first one was the Alternator bracket is steel on this car and was aluminum on the first one. The aluminum one also had a couple of extra holes and I used one of those extra holes for the idler pulley. The steel one didn't have any extra holes, so I picked a good spot for the pulley and drilled the hole.


This bolt hole needs to be countersunk:


I will likely have to drill another hole in the AC bracket to allow it to be shifted up 1 bolt hole for clearance to the cradle once the Archie engine bracket is trimmed down.


I still need to machine the aluminum spacers for the AC bracket and the Alternator bracket, right now washers are stacked to the approximate (+/- 1/32") height. Once I do the test fit and confirm proper clearances, I will go back and make the rear support braces for the AC and Alternator to reduce the possibility for deflection under acceleration.


Trinten MSG #122, 08-08-2013 08:53 PM
      That looks so awesome!!! I'm stupidly excited.

I'm also oddly happy that the bracket was steel and not aluminum. In my mind I think it'll hold up better (less bending/deflection), worth the weight difference to me.

Thank you so much for doing all this!


fieroguru MSG #123, 08-10-2013 06:11 PM
      A few more mods were done to get the engine very close to the 8" mark.

Drilled a 5th hole in the AC bracket so the compressor could be shifted upwards for clearance:


Cut 1/2" off the bottom of the Archie engine mount, welded up the remains of the original 2 mounting holes and drilled 2 new ones 3/4" in from the bottom and sides in the corners. I will likely trim off the top of the engine mount and A/C mount where the extra holes are.


Cut a new piece of angle for the backside and drilled 1 hole in it. I will drill the other side once all the mounts have been fabbed and tacked into place.


I fabbed up some temp support mounts on the transmission side so the drivetrain can sit level on the cradle and still be able to be shifted front/back and side to side during the test fit. Once the test fit is done and optimal engine placement is determined, I will fab up the real transmission mounts.




Very good chance the drivetrain and cradle will be back in the car on Sunday for the test fit to determine optimal engine placement.


fieroguru MSG #124, 08-11-2013 03:02 PM
      Drivetrain was put back in for a test fit today. Here are a couple of pictures of what the engine will look like with its new valve covers.





I moved the engine around some, but there isn't much available room with it in its lowered state. One of the potential interference issues is the transmission with the lower A-arm at full compression. I will install the strut w/o a spring and cycle the suspension to full compression to see if the lower a-arm needs a slight notch.


The previous installation had the balancer bolt pretty much in the center of the circular notch in the frame rail, so this picture shows how much lower the drivetrain is now (as well as how much further to the rear it had to go for alternator clearance to the double firewall panel (in the raised position, the alternator can be over the top of the double firewall panel.


All the lowering was to try to get the intake under the support rail of the GT decklid. Here is a shot with only the hinge. This will need to be notched:


I slid the fastback decklid into place, but it is resting on the hinge which is resting on the intake. Notice the black sharpie mark on the intake, that was where the bottom of the decklid used to come:


Here I slid a washer under the decklid checking for available room:


Notched the hinge:


Decklid back on. Still need about 1/4" more clearance. So I will eventually have to trim the decklid support some, but it will be very minor.



There are a few more things I want to check and then it will come back out to start fabbing the transmission mounts and filling in the notched sections of the cradle.


Trinten MSG #125, 08-11-2013 03:36 PM
      Thank you for the update and all the pictures. It's neat that in retrospect we can see things that you thought of to start with. For example, it appears you must have marked the decklid -to-intake relation when you had first taken off my old intake and set on the new one to see where things sat before you pulled the engine. I know I wouldn't have thought of that.

Last summer I drained and refilled the transmission fluid, so I hope I'm correctly remembering this -- the drain plug for that transmission used to sit parallel to the cradle, there was just enough room to slide a ratchet up there to loosen it, then unscrewing it by hand. With the repositioning of everything, I'm guessing that plug is now going to be beneath the cradle? Or was it parallel to something else?



fieroguru MSG #126, 08-11-2013 05:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
It's neat that in retrospect we can see things that you thought of to start with. For example, it appears you must have marked the decklid -to-intake relation when you had first taken off my old intake and set on the new one to see where things sat before you pulled the engine.


Yes, preplanning, thinking through the mods, and getting some reference measurements when able results in fewer test fits. Nothing like having to put the drivetrain back in for 1 measurement you overlooked, or having to pull it back out because it doesn't fit... Its one of those things you learn to do after you have done several swaps.

 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
the drain plug for that transmission used to sit parallel to the cradle, there was just enough room to slide a ratchet up there to loosen it, then unscrewing it by hand. With the repositioning of everything, I'm guessing that plug is now going to be beneath the cradle? Or was it parallel to something else?


Yeah, the drain plug used to be slightly above the top of the cradle rail, but now it is about 1" above the bottom of the cradle. There is about 1 1/2" between the plug and the differential so you will likely need to use an allen wrench to remove the drain plug.

I forgot to share the picture of the bottom of the oil pan. Here is before:


Here is after:


CowsPatoot MSG #127, 08-11-2013 05:18 PM
      Oooh....more automotive p0rn ....I think I need some alone time now. Looks great, Fieroguru. One question though...



Is the serpentine belt going to clear the circled section of the frame? Hard to see from these angles, but looks like it could be close.

[This message has been edited by CowsPatoot (edited 08-11-2013).]

Trinten MSG #128, 08-11-2013 06:00 PM
      Thanks Guru!

I don't mind if I have to use a wrench to get that plug out.


fieroguru MSG #129, 08-11-2013 09:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by CowsPatoot:
One question though...

Is the serpentine belt going to clear the circled section of the frame? Hard to see from these angles, but looks like it could be close.


That is one of the many items I am checking with this test fit. I am planning to minimize the notch from its current state, so if I have to raise it slightly for belt clearance I can do that to. Right now the tensioner is unloaded and at its highest point. So I will place a straight edge on the pulleys and scribe the frame rail.



Alex4mula (torres_a@hotmail.com) MSG #130, 08-12-2013 04:01 PM
      This is a super cool upgrade.

fieroguru MSG #131, 08-15-2013 06:33 AM
      My wife said it was Carsmas yesterday:


Here are the main parts for the 4" cold air intake:


The silicone coupler, T bolt clamps, 88 4cyl throttle cable, fuel filter, and valve cover gaskets:


Many of the AN parts - a few are still in route:


Heat shrink for the harness - this stuff came all the way from China!


Then I went to work on the mods needed for the coolant hoses at the block. Here is one of the fittings and it clearly needs to be shorter if it is to clear the frame rail:


So I trim the threaded end down and then use a pipe die to extend the threads on the fitting:


Its getting closer, just needs to be a little shorter:


The fitting above will thread into some aluminum plates (water pump spacers), but one of them also needs modified to make it much thinner. So it spends some time on the mill:


Comparison between the two now:


Tap the center hole for the fitting:


Here the modified fitting is sitting in place with the hose end attached:


The other one fits with only having to thread the plate:


Here is a mockup of the cold air intake. I will likely oval the tube so the round to oval transition happens in the tube and not the coupler:


Fuel line fitting:


Fuel pressure gauge:


Themostat housing:



The heater hose will either come out here (after I drill/tap a hole):


Or here if I get a smaller fitting (to use the existing hole):


Mockup of the belt clearance... I will need to notch the current notch some (it doesn't go high enough to clear the angled belt:



Here is the air filter and its approximate home:


fieroguru MSG #132, 08-17-2013 07:02 PM
      Finished the preliminary engine placement tests today. Removed the spring and put the upright/strut back into position and raised it till the strut bottomed out or it hit something. Good news is that on both sides while clearance is very tight, the strut bottoms out before the lower a-arms make contact with the transmission or the front engine mount.
Fully compressed:


Very small gap between the transmission and the a-arm:


Pretty much the same gap on the passenger side as well (I was able to pass a piece of paper through the gap):


I scribed the location of the mounts on the cradle, so I could replicate the placement. Then it was time to remove the drivetrain and get it back on the fixture. Used the marks to position it and made sure it was square and level in both directions. Once that was done, I started working on the front transmission mount.

I like to use a minimum of 3 bolt holes for my mounts and decided to use these 3 holes. One is a transmission hole, one is the top starter hole on the Archie adapter plate and the last hole is a bellhousing bolt hole. None of the holes are in the same plane, so I made some spacers from 3/4" tube with 1/8" wall. This is a good fit for the upper bellhousing bolt (now 1/2"), but the started bolt is 3/8" so I turned down a sleeve for an aftermarket sway bar link for a bushing:





Before the starter bolt spacer could be installed, I had to clearance the transmission slightly with my die grinder. This area had been previously clearanced by someone else... I only did the smooth shiny part. This area will be covered by the mount so it will be hidden from view:



Here is the 16ga template I used for mockup and the spacers. This template will be transferred to 1/8" steel plate and cut to the same shape for the final mount:


Notice the nice uniform gap between the bracket and the transmission case... I am anal like that:


There will be 1/8" plates that fill the gap between the spacers and down to the cradle. This will triangulate everything and result in a very strong/stiff mount made from 1/8" steel. The added steel plates will also completely hide the previous mods to the transmission case for the previous mounts:


This mount will be welded directly to the front cradle rail to help spread out the load. The previous mount used 2 bolts and the cradle rail is bowed up where the drivetrain torque was too much for the metal around the 2 holes to properly hold. While this mount will be welded to the cradle, there will be a set of bolts for all mounts that secure the drivetrain in the same direction - remove the bolts and the drivetrain can be freely shifted to the passenger side for removal and lifting.

Sunday I hope to get this mount finished in 1/8" steel and start the mockup/template process for the rear one.



Trinten MSG #133, 08-17-2013 07:22 PM
      I'm running out of laudatory words to use!

Though the discovery of my cradle showing stress from the torque makes me extremely glad about the timing of this project. Nightmares of what could have happened if that broke loose...

Thank you for the update!


Fierfly (sharons575@gmail.com) MSG #134, 08-17-2013 07:48 PM
      I wish PFF had a 'like' button.

fieroguru MSG #135, 08-17-2013 07:56 PM
      Here is a visual of the bent portion. The washer should be flat, but the center is bulged up where it was trying to pull through the enlarged bolt slot.


Your engine had 381 rwtq, so at the flywheel its pushing about 426 ft-lb (assuming a 12% driveline loss). With the F23 in first gear the axle torque (shared between the two axles) is 6008 ft-lbs... That is A LOT of torque for your mounts to withstand in the event you can hold traction in 1st gear.

For comparison, my LS4/F40 is 325 rwtq, so it is about 364 ft-lb at the flywheel and 4871 ft-lbs at the axles.


fieroguru MSG #136, 08-18-2013 01:01 PM
      The front tranmission mount is nearly complete (just need to smooth the welds on the outside and finish welding it on the inside) and I thought it would be helpful to show a little bit more of the mount making process.

Starting with the template, I grab some 1/8" sheet and cut out a section of if for the piece I need:


With the template sitting on the steel, I mark the first hole and drill it to the size of the bolt (keep the holes as tight as possible).


Once the hole it drilled, now tightly bolt the template to the steel plate and use 2 washers to keep the two separated. The separation allows the drill bit to center on the template as it drills the 1/8" plate. Drill another hole.


Then add a bolt to the new hole with the needed spacers and drill the next hole. By doing it way you keep the template secure and have a precise transfer of the bolt hole pattern from the template to the steel.


Now remove the spacers and bolt the two back together, then take a sharpie and mark the needed shape.



As you cut the shape out, cut in the middle of the sharpie mark and try to leave a little of the mark for finishing.


Once the rough cutout is done, bolt the two pieces together again, but now add washers to the holes that have smooth radii. If the washers with the right OD have too large of an ID to center on the hole, chuck up the bolt in the drill press and use the hand held grinder to taper the head or nut so they will self center to larger holes. Here are a bunch of modified bolts I have used over the years. The ones with the point are for transferring hole centers for making the templates, the tapered nuts and heads are for centering washers for shaping in larger holes.





Then use a grinder with a flapper disk (36 grit) and slowly shape the plate to the shape of the template. Go slow you just want to scratch the template surface and the washers are you round the edges. With some work you will now have a copy of the template.


Next I use a belt sander to help flatten any straight surface (but a flat file works as well) and smooth out the edges.


Here the 1/8" steel bracket is now done.


I wanted to add some 1/8" plate to the firewall side of the bracket to stiffen it up and hide the previous grinder work on the transmission, so I cut a long strip of 1/8" material 1 1/2" wide. When I want to make long cuts that are straight, I use another piece of steel as a guide and clamp it to the metal to be cut.




Now here is where I get a little fancy... I want this 1/8" plate to curve around the top spacer sleeve. To do this I grab another piece of stock used to make the spacer, clamp it on the vice and start pulling it over the tube. Several hits with the hand held mini sledge works to persuade it to bend tighter.



To go even tighter still, I clamp it in the vice using a socket to hold the tube tightly in the groove. Then use a large c-clamp to pull the short leg further around the tube. Once I am happy with it, I cut off the excess length of the leg and test fit the piece.


Then I slide the 1 1/2" plate into place and test the fit:




Then use the same process to make the 2nd bend around the other spacer and trim the bottom to the needed length:



Then I tacked the spacers to the original bracket plate on the inside, then tacked the outer plate as well. Then went back and fully welded the two together. I didn't focus on making a nice looking weld, just a hot deep weld with good penetration as it will all be ground down anyway.



Backside is welded:



Last step is to grind the outer weld smooth, but the wife has a headache and would like for me to hold off on the grinding for a while. So I am going to mow the grass for a few hours.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-18-2013).]

Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #137, 08-18-2013 01:14 PM
      Pure artistry.

FieroMaster88 (fast88fiero@yahoo.com) MSG #138, 08-18-2013 01:59 PM
     

Trinten MSG #139, 08-18-2013 02:07 PM
     

And you did all that today, and got the post put together, and it's still early in the afternoon. ... you can really make a guy feel lazy sometimes!

With your bending setup, using the socket as a spacer on the pipe, is the pipe flattened out there? I would be worried about the pipe working/rolling free on the flat face of the socket when the wedging/bending force is being applied - or I could be missing something obvious that didn't translate in the picture/description.


fieroguru MSG #140, 08-18-2013 04:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
Pure artistry.


 
quote
Originally posted by FieroMaster88:


Thanks! My parents owned an ornamental iron business in the mid 70's and it must have made some impression on me at a very young age. I vaguely remember being there while they were working when I was young, and they shut it down when I was 3-4. Kinda strange that my adult hobby ended up being my parents first business... now that I think of it, my mom has only seen the bed I made for Sara and I, she has never seen any of the brackets/mounts I have made for my swaps...

 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
And you did all that today, and got the post put together, and it's still early in the afternoon. ... you can really make a guy feel lazy sometimes!


So I guess I shouldn't tell you that I didn't even step foot in the garage till 10 AM...

 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
With your bending setup, using the socket as a spacer on the pipe, is the pipe flattened out there? I would be worried about the pipe working/rolling free on the flat face of the socket when the wedging/bending force is being applied - or I could be missing something obvious that didn't translate in the picture/description.


There is just enough pressure on the socket to hold everything in the vice, and the tube is 1/8" wall and quite stiff. The clamping/bending is happening with the large C-clamp, not with the vice at this point.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-18-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #141, 08-18-2013 05:07 PM
      Here is the finished and smoothed front transmission mount:


Then I started on the rear mount. Picked up some cardboard from the recycle bin (pink works) and roughed out the needed shape:


Transferred it to 16ga mild steel and made it a little larger. I used a 3" hole saw for the circular cut, but I need to see if I can find a 2 7/8" one for the final product:


Then did a test fit to make sure it would still fit in the area. I used the shear to make some minor tweaks the shape until it fit. Then I threaded in one of the center punch bolts and marked the hole location. Then drilled the hole, moved the center punch insert to the bottom hole, threaded a bolt into the top one, marked the bottom, drilled it and installed the bracket again:




Then I made some marks on the template to show the areas that needed to be trimmed, took it to the shear, trimmed it, and used the washer trick to radius the top bolt hole area:


The other part of this mount I am starting with 16ga. It will bolt to the engine block in the stock SBC starter pad location, then extend out and follow the shape of the other template while it tapers down to about 1 1/2" wide. I am just starting on that one...




Jims88 (stumpster60@gmail.com) MSG #142, 08-18-2013 06:22 PM
      Really enjoy seeing the fabrication techniques.

Motor looks cool Trinten


Trinten MSG #143, 08-18-2013 06:39 PM
      Thanks for the info and update, Guru! I really like that the mounts are not only good looking, but it definitely looks like it's going to make them a lot stronger - and I love functionality! When you get form thrown in there, too... pure bonus.

Jim, thank you! I was really happy with the speed shop that put that engine together. I told him that if blow it up down the road with the power adders, he'd have to build me another and over-build it a bit more, he said no problem. lol



FieroMaster88 (fast88fiero@yahoo.com) MSG #144, 08-18-2013 07:01 PM
      This makes my engine swap look like a pos! I can't wait to see this completed.

fieroguru MSG #145, 08-19-2013 08:00 PM
      The girls had dance this evening, so I had the whole place to myself and could make as much noise as I wanted... so I didn't take a bunch of pictures, but nearly have the rear mount bracket mocked up and ready for welding. You can see the shape of the part that bolts to the transmission is slightly different, noticed another bolt hole in the transmission and said "why not" (I do still need to make the spacer for it - its not in the same plane as the other two).



Installed:




I mentioned earlier that I wanted the drivetrain to be removable to the PS of the cradle, so if this bracket was welded to the cradle, that wouldn't happen. So that's not the plan. On the left side of this bracket will be another plate that will be welded to the cradle and bolted to this rear bracket. That will keep the direction of removal correct and allow this bracket to stay with the engine/transmission during removal.

Here is a picture of a previous mount I made like this (you can see this one also had another mount on the other side of the differential as well):




fieroguru MSG #146, 08-22-2013 06:34 PM
      The rear mount is nearly complete. In this picture you will see I drilled the 3 holes that will bolt this bracket to the cradle and I extended the small leg down to the end of the plate:



Partially welded:


Fully welded and smoothed:




Trinten MSG #147, 08-22-2013 08:49 PM
      That is really nice looking.

When I had snapped an axle last year, CowsPatoot had tried to replace both axles for me. The broken one (driver side) popped out without any issues, but the passenger side would not pop. He wedged a pry bar in there and I laid on the ground and leveraged my legs against it, and it still didn't come out.

I noticed in some of the pics that it looked like you had gotten the driver side axle pulled, but the passenger side is still in - did you have issues removing it as well? Or did you not need to pull both sides so didn't?

Just wondering if there's a magic trick that we missed.


fieroguru MSG #148, 08-22-2013 09:22 PM
      Yeah, the passenger axle is being stubborn and doesn't want to come out. So far I haven't "needed" it removed, but I will try a few more times to get it removed.

Trinten MSG #149, 08-22-2013 10:20 PM
      If there's any concern or possibility that the teeth on the axle have started to 'strip' trying to jump a notch in the transmission.. I'm almost worried about it coming out, we might discover that the transmission might need to be repaired/replaced.

I have no idea how likely that is, but if the axle is supposed to come out rather easily, the only thing I can think of is that the teeth are (or starting to get) jammed up.

So... I guess don't try too hard to get it to come out. lol


fieroguru MSG #150, 08-23-2013 07:49 PM
      This evening, I went and capped off the notches I made in the cradle for clearance:




Then I added a piece of 1/8" steel to the rear cross member to replace the section that was previously cut out. The tab for the rear transmission mount bracket will be welded to this new plate.


On Saturday, I need to go pick up another tank of shielding gas, fab up the rear weld on mount bracket, and weld the inside of the side cradle notch around the suspension box. Then with the mounts tack welded into place, I will do another test fit to confirm placement/fitment and then weld the mounts solid to the cradle.


Trinten MSG #151, 08-23-2013 09:38 PM
      That's frickin' sweet looking. Like it came from the factory that way! (your forte`).

fieroguru MSG #152, 08-24-2013 03:17 PM
      As I got ready for another test fit, I went ahead and cleaned up the weld from the original frame notch. When I checked for belt fitment last, it was hitting on some excess weld slag, so I wanted it smooth for this test fit.



Then it was in for the test fit. Both ends of the intake are 10 1/2" from the rear firewall and the belt now clears (I shifted the drivetrain about 3/16" to the driver side from the last test fit):




Then it was out again for welding and to finish the mounts. Unfortunately, I didn't get to the weld shop this morning, so I ran out of gas once the mounts were tacked into place. Here is the rear support for the angle that is hanging over the cradle:


Here is the tab for the rear transmission mount. This will be welded to the cradle:




I was able to put a full section of weld on the front mount and a section of the angle to lock the drivetrain in place:




fieroguru MSG #153, 08-27-2013 06:06 PM
      Both girls are back in gymnastics on Monday night, so not much will happen on Monday. I did manage to get another tank of shielding gas, so this evening I was able to finish the welding on the mounts:





The rear bracket had another piece of steel tacked to it and the cradle to resist the pulling that the weld would have. Once the welding was done and everything was cool, I cut it back off and smoothed everything back out.


Now the engine/transmission have finished mounts!




Now I need to separate the engine/transmission and work on the starter/oil filter relocation.



Trinten MSG #154, 08-27-2013 07:41 PM
      The benefits of restarting a browser. Things are appearing normally now. Thanks for the update!!

Looks pretty damn awesome. Hyped that you've got some ideas for the starter. It gave CowsPatoot and L67/EMC209i a little trouble because it could shift every-so-slightly on it's shims when being torqued down, and then be off enough to be incompatible.

Looking forward to what you cook up with that relocation and starter!

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 08-27-2013).]

carbon MSG #155, 08-28-2013 09:41 AM
     

fieroguru MSG #156, 09-01-2013 05:22 PM
      Between brake work for others and prepping the my LS4/F40 Fiero for the LS Fest... hadn't made much progress on Vince's swap till today.

The starter setup on this car was pretty sad... The Archie kit uses a bolt on block that holds the starter (not really the issue here) and this car had the flywheel turned down to accept a 142 tooth ring gear vs the 153 used with the Archie kit to resolve ring gear/differential interference with the F23. So the starter block was modified to allow the starter to go in further through a combination of slotting holes and adding shims... end result is a very difficult setup to adjust and replace while keeping the proper gear mesh and all the spacers allows the starter to flex more than I think it should.


First order of business was to make a new starter mounting block. I happened to have some aluminum bar on the shelf that was slightly thicker than the starter plate on the starter, so it was cut to the right length. Then I placed it along the face of the starter making sure the face was flush, then transferred the bolt holes and drilled the first set of hole in the block. Then bolted the plate to the starter and clamped it to the adapter plate with the gear properly meshed, transferred the second set of holes, then drilled them. Put it back together and everything looked good.

Now most would have stopped right there (and many do stop right there when installing a SBC using an Archie kit), but the next time the starter comes out while the engine is in the car is going to be a chore to get it realigned because there just is too much available slop in the holes and access/visibility to the teeth mesh is very poor with the engine installed in the car.

So in this picture you can see that I counter bored all the holes in the starter block (as well as the starter plate and the adapter) to accept some 1/2" OD dowel pins (cut down from sway bar end link spacer). These pins and bores will ensure a snug starter fit w/o any visible slop, so the starter can be removed multiple times and always put back in with easy and precise alignment.





After a test fit with the dowels in place, the mounting plate was proud of the starter mount face, so I put it in the mill to make them flush and parallel:



Here are some pictures of the starter installation with the new block and the dowel pins (notice the trick of using a wire tie and a 1/2 nut to keep the gear extended):




Now the only issue with this starter placement is I will have to make another slight notch in the front cradle crossmember as the starter block hangs down lower than the bottom of the adapter and the bottom of the adapter clears the cradle by 1/16". There really wasn't much option with the starter placement as the crossing bolts in the starter block and the front cradle rail really limit options. When I made the new block, I did make sure the crisscrossing bolts in the new block were as close to each other as possible.

Here is a picture of the clearance between the starter and the oil relocation plate:


The center port gets capped off because there just isn't room in there for anything. As part of the original install, a tall pipe cap was used. This was too tall, so I replaced it with a flush cap and a recess for the allen wrench.





fieroguru MSG #157, 09-01-2013 08:56 PM
      I also started working on the oil filter bypass... these things nearly always leak because its hard to get a good gasket for them. Since it is an oil bypass, I like to use oil filter o-ring gaskets. Here is the one I use, don't know the original application:



It is the perfect OD to fit in the machined pocket for the oil filter:


Its about 1/4" thick, which is a little too thick for use without modifying the relocation housing:


I needed to chuck up the relocation housing in the lathe, but to do so I have to remove one of the casting ports with an air grinder with burr tool.


Then chuck it up in the lathe to remove the groove at the sealing surface to make more room for the seal. Here is the stock seal surface:


Here it is after a few passes:




CowsPatoot MSG #158, 09-02-2013 07:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
These pins and bores will ensure a snug starter fit w/o any visible slop, so the starter can be removed multiple times and always put back in with easy and precise alignment.




Jims88 (stumpster60@gmail.com) MSG #159, 09-02-2013 08:29 PM
      Nice work!
Trinten, or some one will be Thankful when they have to change that starter.


Trinten MSG #160, 09-03-2013 07:08 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Jims88:

Nice work!
Trinten, or some one will be Thankful when they have to change that starter.


As easy as he made it with this setup, I'll probably be able to do it myself! Otherwise, CowsPatoot will be glad. lol

Honestly, with that starter only being about about, what, two years old? I hope it doesn't need to be replaced anytime soon.

It's an awesome solution, and so is the fix for the oil relocator!


KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #161, 09-20-2013 01:25 PM
      how's this thing coming along?



Trinten MSG #162, 09-20-2013 09:10 PM
      It's actually going great! FieroGuru has sent me a few things in PM to see what I thought about them. He also enlarged the oil return hole on the side of the block, which is great, and makes me feel a bit more comfortable since the engine builder put in a high flow oil pump, so I won't be punishing the pump with (as much?) backpressure.

And of course FieroGuru has his own stuff to do, he was doing some work on one of his brake projects, and he had gone to an event to put his car through the paces. He's been outstanding about sending me updates!

Right now I think he's also waiting for my clutch to show up. I had a 6-puck sprung hub ceramic clutch from Clutchnet. He didn't know how much material was left on the face (compared to a new one), and Oleg didn't get back to me on that question, so I ordered a new one anyway, figure I'll keep my old one as an emergency backup.

So please stay tuned!


fieroguru MSG #163, 09-22-2013 07:47 PM
      Yeah, progress has been slow the last few weeks due to LS Fest and spending time on my car, working on quite a few brake kit orders, and last week we had plant dinners on all shifts on 2 days (4 crew plant) so I was working some very strange hours... However Vince's engine did get some love this weekend.

I had already installed the timing cover for the last time, made a timing notch for TDC (just to assist with positioning the cam sensor), and installed the oil pan with a new gasket:


Next I wanted to button up the valve covers, so I swapped out the roller tipped 1.52 ratio rockers with the 1.6 roller tipped rockers. With these, his roller camshaft specs are: 230/236 .576"/.570" with a 113 lobe separation (Comp Cams 280XFI HR13 part # 07-467-8). With his AFR heads flowing more at .600 than .550, he should see some additional peak HP and possibly push this thing over 400 wph (371 whp was the previous tune). Here are the 1.5 roller rockers:


Comparison pic (1.6 on the left):


Installed:


The bolts for the valve covers were about 1/4" too long to tighten the valve covers, so I shortened the 8 bolts, dumped a quart of oil over each bank and installed the valve covers. Next was to install the lower intake, I dumped 2 quarts of oil over the lifters, installed the intake gaskets, installed the intake, lined up the intake runners to the head ports (with a tunnel ram you can "see" the alignment), then torqued it down. All the ports looked like these two with just a slight portion of the lower corners of the head protruding past the ports on the HSR.



All of this work to button up the engine was to finalize the cam sensor location in the distributor housing. It took some trial and error to get the sensor lined up with the connector pointing the direction I wanted it, but eventually got there. Then the hold down clamp had to be slotted to the right position, then the original hole welded up and smoothed, the bolt hole redrilled, and a pivot stand welded to the hold down... Now the cam sensor is aligned per the EFI Connection instructions!

Hold down slotted:


Filled:


Smoothed and redrilled:


Installed:



Next I set to work on the fuel rails. They are setup for a rail mounted regulator and I am converting them to returnless, so I needed to fill the regulator port. I turned a plug with the same o-ring groove as the regulator, fabbed up an aluminum bar to span the plug and keep it secure, then trimmed the stainless steel button heads to the right length.

Bypass regulator and open port:


Turning a plug with o-ring groove:


Installed:



Capped:


Next order of business for the fuel rail was to add the fuel pressure gauge. Pretty simple with the 1/8 NPT elbow, but when it was tight, the inner portion of the threads were partially blocking the port, so I drilled down through the fitting to clearance the part the protruded into the opening.

Threads protruding:


Clearanced:


Then purged all the fuel rails and fittings with brake clean to remove any debris, installed the injectors (36# Bosch) and started playing around with wiring options to hide the connectors. Originally I didn't think there was any chance of flipping the connectors to the back side, but it works!




I am in the process of filling all the extra coolant ports and vacuum ports with chrome plugs. This picture also shows the coolant fill and the -16 AN fitting.


Here is the other -16AN elbow and a steel weld end, there wont be much length to the braided stainless steel hose... I will weld the steel end to some 1" schedule 40 pipe that will be the coolant crossover to the passenger side.


Here is a mockup of the 1 3/4" header flange to the exhaust ports on the heads (I have sense removed the stock fiero temp sender and capped that coolant port):


I think I also figured out a slick/relatively simple solution for the IAC housing that will not fit in the stock location. I plan to machine a 1/4" plate to cap off the complete underside of the throttle body housing and extend it out past the TPS side of the throttle body as needed. Then I will use and modify the existing passages under the throttle body (and machine some in the 1/4" plate), to create the air flow path to the new IAC position, which will be 90 degrees from the stock position and off to the side of the throttle body. This pic shows the new position for the IAC housing and the available room for a 1/2" plate:


Here is a pic of the ports on the IAC housing:


Here is an underside picture of the existing passages in the throttle body. I will need to face it down to the as cast corner so it will seal up well. Then cut a path from the port on the right to the right corner pocket. Then cut a passage from the port on the left to the existing passage on the left:


I don't like seeing wires, but sometimes there is only 1 optimal location for the sensor to go. I am referring to the engine coolant temp sensor. My philosophy is the ECM should see the hottest portion of the engine, so it can start pulling timing when needed to protect the engine. If it sees a cooler portion of the engine, it might not see the hottest cylinder and not intervene to protect it. For the SBC (and the LSx engine as well) the hottest location with a coolant port is between cylinders 8 & 6. To keep sensors and wiring minimized, I am using a 3 wire sensor that will provide the needed signal to the ECM as well as the stock fiero temp gauge. The ECM will have 100% control over the fan, so no other coolant sensor or switch is needed.


It will probably be Wednesday before I get back to Vince's car...

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-22-2013).]

bkcamaro (bkcamaro@yahoo.com) MSG #164, 09-23-2013 05:10 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Yeah, progress has been slow the last few weeks due to LS Fest and spending time on my car, working on quite a few brake kit orders, and last week we had plant dinners on all shifts on 2 days (4 crew plant) so I was working some very strange hours... However Vince's engine did get some love this weekend.

I had already installed the timing cover for the last time, made a timing notch for TDC (just to assist with positioning the cam sensor), and installed the oil pan with a new gasket:


Next I wanted to button up the valve covers, so I swapped out the roller tipped 1.52 ratio rockers with the 1.6 roller tipped rockers. With these, his roller camshaft specs are: 230/236 .576"/.570" with a 113 lobe separation (Comp Cams 280XFI HR13 part # 07-467-8). With his AFR heads flowing more at .600 than .550, he should see some additional peak HP and possibly push this thing over 400 wph (371 whp was the previous tune). Here are the 1.5 roller rockers:


Comparison pic (1.6 on the left):


Installed:


The bolts for the valve covers were about 1/4" too long to tighten the valve covers, so I shortened the 8 bolts, dumped a quart of oil over each bank and installed the valve covers. Next was to install the lower intake, I dumped 2 quarts of oil over the lifters, installed the intake gaskets, installed the intake, lined up the intake runners to the head ports (with a tunnel ram you can "see" the alignment), then torqued it down. All the ports looked like these two with just a slight portion of the lower corners of the head protruding past the ports on the HSR.



All of this work to button up the engine was to finalize the cam sensor location in the distributor housing. It took some trial and error to get the sensor lined up with the connector pointing the direction I wanted it, but eventually got there. Then the hold down clamp had to be slotted to the right position, then the original hole welded up and smoothed, the bolt hole redrilled, and a pivot stand welded to the hold down... Now the cam sensor is aligned per the EFI Connection instructions!

Hold down slotted:


Filled:


Smoothed and redrilled:


Installed:



Next I set to work on the fuel rails. They are setup for a rail mounted regulator and I am converting them to returnless, so I needed to fill the regulator port. I turned a plug with the same o-ring groove as the regulator, fabbed up an aluminum bar to span the plug and keep it secure, then trimmed the stainless steel button heads to the right length.

Bypass regulator and open port:


Turning a plug with o-ring groove:


Installed:



Capped:


Next order of business for the fuel rail was to add the fuel pressure gauge. Pretty simple with the 1/8 NPT elbow, but when it was tight, the inner portion of the threads were partially blocking the port, so I drilled down through the fitting to clearance the part the protruded into the opening.

Threads protruding:


Clearanced:


Then purged all the fuel rails and fittings with brake clean to remove any debris, installed the injectors (36# Bosch) and started playing around with wiring options to hide the connectors. Originally I didn't think there was any chance of flipping the connectors to the back side, but it works!




I am in the process of filling all the extra coolant ports and vacuum ports with chrome plugs. This picture also shows the coolant fill and the -16 AN fitting.


Here is the other -16AN elbow and a steel weld end, there wont be much length to the braided stainless steel hose... I will weld the steel end to some 1" schedule 40 pipe that will be the coolant crossover to the passenger side.


Here is a mockup of the 1 3/4" header flange to the exhaust ports on the heads (I have sense removed the stock fiero temp sender and capped that coolant port):


I think I also figured out a slick/relatively simple solution for the IAC housing that will not fit in the stock location. I plan to machine a 1/4" plate to cap off the complete underside of the throttle body housing and extend it out past the TPS side of the throttle body as needed. Then I will use and modify the existing passages under the throttle body (and machine some in the 1/4" plate), to create the air flow path to the new IAC position, which will be 90 degrees from the stock position and off to the side of the throttle body. This pic shows the new position for the IAC housing and the available room for a 1/2" plate:


Here is a pic of the ports on the IAC housing:


Here is an underside picture of the existing passages in the throttle body. I will need to face it down to the as cast corner so it will seal up well. Then cut a path from the port on the right to the right corner pocket. Then cut a passage from the port on the left to the existing passage on the left:


I don't like seeing wires, but sometimes there is only 1 optimal location for the sensor to go. I am referring to the engine coolant temp sensor. My philosophy is the ECM should see the hottest portion of the engine, so it can start pulling timing when needed to protect the engine. If it sees a cooler portion of the engine, it might not see the hottest cylinder and not intervene to protect it. For the SBC (and the LSx engine as well) the hottest location with a coolant port is between cylinders 8 & 6. To keep sensors and wiring minimized, I am using a 3 wire sensor that will provide the needed signal to the ECM as well as the stock fiero temp gauge. The ECM will have 100% control over the fan, so no other coolant sensor or switch is needed.


It will probably be Wednesday before I get back to Vince's car...



i am not going to lie but i am extremely jealous


Trinten MSG #165, 09-23-2013 07:07 AM
      Yeah, he does awesome work.



CowsPatoot MSG #166, 09-23-2013 11:38 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bkcamaro:

i am not going to lie but i am extremely jealous


You aren't the only one.


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #167, 09-23-2013 12:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by CowsPatoot:


You aren't the only one.


...next in the "jealous" line...


carbon MSG #168, 09-23-2013 01:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bkcamaro:

i am not going to lie but i am extremely jealous


I understand the jealousy... But why quote the whole long post, just to say it? It kinda muddies the thread when a post with 25-30 pictures is quoted in full...

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 09-23-2013).]

Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #169, 09-23-2013 06:11 PM
      Ugh, I agree, pet peeve of mine,especially cause I'm usually reading the forum on my phone.

fieroguru MSG #170, 09-25-2013 08:25 PM
      Did a little work on the remote IAC....

Set the throttle body up on the mill:


Milling the bottom surface flat, then the slots from the IAC ports to the edge:



Here I used a marker to show the flange area and the new air passages:


Then I cut out a piece of 3/8" aluminum plate, cut it to shape, located and drilled all the bolt holes. Then used some grease to transfer the port pattern from the throttle body.



Then milled the passages in the aluminum plate:


Then I trimmed the side to clear the fuel rail and checked everything for clearance:



Here is where the IAC will be on the underside. I do need to mill the plate or the IAC housing to get more clearance to the connector on the distributor:


I used the grease (and black marker) to show the port locations in the IAC and how they line up with the passages in the bottom of the throttle body:



I still need to drill/tap the mounting holes in the plate for the IAC, drill the plate and tap the throttle body for another bolt in the far corner, then either mill the IAC housing or the plate for more connector clearance... then I can move on to the next challenge.




Trinten MSG #171, 09-25-2013 09:36 PM
      Wow! That's crazy all that you had to do for just that one part.

Too bad there's no simple way of flipping the whole throttle body upside down. :/

Sorry you're getting stuck with all these little mods!


fieroguru MSG #172, 09-26-2013 06:30 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Wow! That's crazy all that you had to do for just that one part.

Too bad there's no simple way of flipping the whole throttle body upside down. :/

Sorry you're getting stuck with all these little mods!


I am a little weird in that I really like/enjoy these challenging fitment issues. Just bolting parts together gets boring, fitment issues like this keep things interesting. Plus, these are the items that will keep your swap unique! I like this IAC solution much better than some of the other ones we had discussed as its quite simple and keeps things hidden without having to add additional plumbing that could have been a distraction.


Trinten MSG #173, 09-26-2013 08:00 AM
      Okay, I'm glad you're not finding them tiresome or a nuisance!

Thank you again for all this awesome work!


CowsPatoot MSG #174, 09-26-2013 02:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
Okay, I'm glad you're not finding them tiresome or a nuisance!


Those are the details that makes this a "Fieroguru Special"...and the reason he has the car rather than someone else.

Personally, the details of this build mean a lot more to me than the other threads Fieroguru has done. Sure, there is good automotive p0rn in all of them....but so much more fun watching the p0rn when the star is a chick you went to school with (or maybe I am just sick and twisted...your call on that one).

[This message has been edited by CowsPatoot (edited 09-26-2013).]

diabloroadster MSG #175, 09-26-2013 05:10 PM
      This thread should be in the "Technical Discussion" or atleast in the "Construction" section, there is nothing "General" about this project....
Great work Guru!


TXOPIE (tx.opie@gmail.com) MSG #176, 09-26-2013 05:36 PM
      ^ I would have to 2nd that!

Trinten MSG #177, 09-26-2013 11:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by CowsPatoot:


Those are the details that makes this a "Fieroguru Special"...and the reason he has the car rather than someone else.

Personally, the details of this build mean a lot more to me than the other threads Fieroguru has done. Sure, there is good automotive p0rn in all of them....but so much more fun watching the p0rn when the star is a chick you went to school with (or maybe I am just sick and twisted...your call on that one).



... what did I just read? I don't even... lol

 
quote
Originally posted by TXOPIE:

^ I would have to 2nd that!


Thanks, I think waaay back when this started with the first set of guys, I didn't pay enough attention to put it in the builds section - or it was one of those things that had to be declared worthy enough to be put there. As for the Technical section, again at the time, I didn't feel there was enough to merit it being in the technical section, it was pretty straight forward.

Now that Guru has it, it's a different story, but I'm not going to bug Cliff to move it, he probably gets enough crazy requests - plus he was already kind enough to change the title of the thread for me.



Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #178, 09-28-2013 12:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
...
Now that Guru has it, it's a different story, but I'm not going to bug Cliff to move it, he probably gets enough crazy requests - plus he was already kind enough to change the title of the thread for me.


From:
The Construction Zone
"There are so many great build threads and other write-ups out there, it warrants its own section!
You can't start threads here, but if your thread is worthy enough, it will eventually end up here."


It'll get there. I think Cliff goes through the threads from time to time.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 09-28-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #179, 09-28-2013 01:32 PM
      The IAC modifications are now done!

Drilled/tapped the corner hole in the area that wasn't originally part of the IAC housing (and an as cast surface). Sorry, no good picture at the moment.

Milled the IAC housing slightly more than 1/8" to gain more clearance to the connector and also 1/8" off the side to allow it to slide closer to the fuel rail for additional clearance to the connector and to a bolt hole:



Marked and drilled the port holes in the plate:




Milled the slots deeper in the 3/8" plate and milled a notch for the IAC motor to clear the plate (needed since I milled the IAC housing):



Couple of installed pictures:



I am just waiting for the stainless steel M4 - .70 x 10mm socket head bolts to arrive to seal it up for the last time.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-28-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #180, 09-28-2013 08:42 PM
      The throttle body surface had a few unused holes, so I found the right size set screws and applied some RTV to the threads to help seal them up:



Also put chrome caps in all the unused vacuum ports on the upper plenum as well:



Also cut the notches for the injector wires so the wires for the outer 4 injectors can be routed to the center:



Rotated the engine to start work on the coolant crossover:


Fabbed up some brackets for the crossover tube:


Welded the AN nipple to the pipe and mocked things up:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-28-2013).]

Trinten MSG #181, 09-28-2013 11:57 PM
      As always, thank you for the pictures and attention to detail!

I'm still floored by that IAC setup...

I was talking to a guy at work saying how when this is done, I'm going to print out some key posts and pictures, and put together a binder to take with me to car shows to put out so people can see all the little tricks that were done to get this to work. Something to put by the car at AutoFair in the spring, maybe with a self standing placard that says "V8 Fiero - no your friend did not have one with a V8 'from the factory'" then the highlights. lol


fieroguru MSG #182, 09-29-2013 03:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
I'm still floored by that IAC setup...


Glad you like it!

It is one of the key mods for the HSR to fit under the decklid with just a minor notch. If this was a stock height HSR intake, then the IAC mod wouldn't be needed, but then the intake would be taller and require a larger notch to the decklid.

 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
I was talking to a guy at work saying how when this is done, I'm going to print out some key posts and pictures, and put together a binder to take with me to car shows to put out so people can see all the little tricks that were done to get this to work.


I had one of those for my Ramjet car and have one for the LS4/F40.


fieroguru MSG #183, 09-29-2013 03:44 PM
      I welded the tabs to the coolant crossover pipe and then fabbed up the -16AN hose between the thermostat housing and the coolant pipe. When I cut the braided stainless hose, I wrap it with electrical tape about 5-7 times, and then cut with a cutoff disk. Clean, lube and assemble:








Trinten MSG #184, 09-30-2013 11:26 PM
      Damn that looks so much nicer than it used to...

carbon MSG #185, 10-01-2013 10:59 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Damn that looks so much nicer than it used to...


You know... after this is all done, people are going to hate you, in the way that's nice to be hated.


fieroguru MSG #186, 10-01-2013 07:42 PM
      This Fiero is now a 1999 Camaro (or Firebird)... Service manual for the wiring side of things.


I removed the flywheel so it can be resurface (new Clutch is still MIA). The original Archie flywheel weighs around 29 lbs and I was curious as to how much this one weighs after it was modified for the 142 tooth ring gear... 23lbs 7oz:



Put the engine/transmission on the cradle again so I can start mocking up the exhaust, the rest of the coolant crossover pipe and ECM mounting. Here is a very rough mockup of the exhaust I am hoping will work (1 3/4" primaries). The collector to 90 degree bend will be challenging and I might need to notch the rear crossmember some for additional clearance. The other side will be a mirror image so the tube on cylinder #1 should clear the alternator:




Trinten MSG #187, 10-01-2013 09:12 PM
      Looking awesome!

I emailed clutchnet again (CC'd you, Guru), asking for another update. I got to say, this time around I'm a little disappointed in their service.


fieroguru MSG #188, 10-05-2013 05:45 PM
      Spent about 4 hrs on the rear header... things are quite tight on this this. So lots of testing fit, remove, grind/cut, test fit... Here is the current state, the primaries are heavy tacked (3/4" bead top and bottom) at the flange and welded together at the collector, but the collector still needs to be welded in place.





Here is the 3" exhaust elbow and the collector will be between these two:


Here the collector is just sitting it place. I did cut the ends of the tube at a slight angle to help the collector angle down to the opening in the cradle:



fieroguru MSG #189, 10-05-2013 07:33 PM
      Here is a pic of the surfaced flywheel. I am going to swap out the ring gear as it has some damage from some previous starter alignment issues:


This car has the trunk removed below the shelf, so it has lots of room for the exhaust. Vince has asked for it to be rather quiet, so I am doing something different. 3" pipe from collectors w/ expansion joint on the front, Y'd into a single 3" pipe, then past the rear cradle cross-memeber turn 90 to go vertical, then turn 90 to the side, into a Vibrant Performance Ultra Quiet resonator, then 180 loop around to enter the Magnaflow cross flow muffler, then 2 1/2" pipes to whatever the tips are going to be. I am hoping the resonator in front of the muffler will make this car much quieter than all my previous V8 builds, but if it still needs to be toned down some, I will install the auger muffler insert into the resonator. Everything post headers will be stainless steel. The headers will be ceramic coated. Here are pics of the components:







Trinten MSG #190, 10-05-2013 10:02 PM
      That all looks so awesome!

I haven't even thought about tips.. as you saw with the last setup, the pipe just "ended" after a short extension from the mufflers to get to where the tips should have been. Off to Summit Racing I go!!


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #191, 10-06-2013 12:04 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

That all looks so awesome!

I haven't even thought about tips..


Check out these Gibson tips. The one in the pic is flat black, but they also come in polished stainless.

http://www.gibsonperformance.com/dev/index.php
I used to have a pair of them. Just didn't have a car to put them on. (I always thought they'd be perfect for the GT cutouts. Not so much for a Formula.)


fieroguru MSG #192, 10-06-2013 04:36 PM
      The front header is all tacked together:



The front header is rough mocked up, still need to finish trim/form the primaries to the flange and then work on the collector. Notice I did have to mod the #1 primary for alternator (used a bend from some other 1 3/4" tubing I had on the shelf).


Clearance to the starter (there will be a heat shield to keep the starter cool):


Nice open path for the AC lines to go:


Jims88 (stumpster60@gmail.com) MSG #193, 10-06-2013 08:59 PM
      Looking GOOD Trinten
fieroguru made some cool custom fabrications!


Trinten MSG #194, 10-06-2013 09:22 PM
      Thanks,

Yeah, his work is amazing. For a while I was bugging him with different questions, making sure I had the right parts, wasn't overlooking things, then half-jokingly asked him if he'd be willing to do the work - was totally thrilled that he said he would. It's like getting on that Overhaulin' show... only better (no sudden paint changes that I might not like, but can't really dispute because hey... I'm on TV! lol)


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #195, 10-07-2013 08:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Yeah, his work is amazing.
...


Quite true.

There are only two or three people on this Forum (or not on this Forum, for that matter) who I would trust to undertake a project of this magnitude, and feel totally comfortable about the outcome.

Paul is at the very top of this list.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 10-07-2013).]

Trinten MSG #196, 10-07-2013 09:27 PM
      So on the subject of tips, here's the ones I was looking at so far

This one has a resonator built in, I think I like this one the best so far - http://www.summitracing.com...jex-jdr212/overview/

This other one is really strange, reading it sounds functional and neat, but then you go "What happens when it's "intercooler" becomes heat saturated, just like a real intercooler? I figured at that point, it stops working as intended. Am I wrong? - http://www.summitracing.com.../bor-20213/overview/

Lastly, a square one, solely for looks (though I like stuff that's functional) - http://www.summitracing.com.../bor-20244/overview/


fieroguru MSG #197, 10-07-2013 09:58 PM
      Let me measure the length of the stock megaphone tips. You probably don't want anything significantly longer or they might stick out too far.

CowsPatoot MSG #198, 10-07-2013 10:11 PM
      The first one looks nice....but I question using a steel tip when the rest of the exhaust system will be stainless. But, I am far from being an exhaust expert...so I might be getting too picky there.

Second one...even when saturated with heat, there is still air flowing through to help cool. Again, I am not an exhaust expert, so I can't really comment on whether that feature would be worth the money. I can see potential advantages to keeping heat away from the bumper though.

Third one. Personal preference....I am not a fan of the square ones.

What about the C6 tips I see floating around here regularly? I think this is an ideal use for them.


Trinten MSG #199, 10-07-2013 10:20 PM
      Thanks Guru!

CP, Yeah, I didn't think about the C6 tips, they have built in resonators and are stainless too... might not be a bad idea.

Is 30-40 bucks a good price for these?

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 10-07-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #200, 10-08-2013 06:32 AM
      The GT megaphone tips are 14 1/2" in length including the 90 on the exhaust pipe. The 2 1/2" pipe needs 4 inches for the 90 degree bend, so you are looking for a tip that is about 10 1/2" in length or less, unless you want to ends to stick out further than stock.

Trinten MSG #201, 10-08-2013 08:27 AM
      Thank you for the measurements!

CowsPatoot MSG #202, 10-08-2013 01:22 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Thanks Guru!

CP, Yeah, I didn't think about the C6 tips, they have built in resonators and are stainless too... might not be a bad idea.

Is 30-40 bucks a good price for these?



I was seeing them go for $30 each when people were lining up to sell them. There isn't a line right now.


Trinten MSG #203, 10-08-2013 09:23 PM
      Cool, thanks for the info.

So managed to finally finagle Summit Racing's website to only show me resonated tips, and only two were under the length that FieroGuru gave me. It's still options!

With all of the awesome tricks he's got planned for it, I think I'll see if he can see what the volume comes down to, and if there's any resonating in the cabin at any particular speeds before he needs the tips.

Here are the two tips that have resonators and are under the 10.5 inch limit:

http://www.summitracing.com...imm-577461/overview/
http://www.summitracing.com.../hed-17122/overview/

And there is those C6 tips, though the inlet is a little smaller than 2.5", so if that's going to be a pain in the ass for FieroGuru to weld on, I'll skip those. Inlet ID = 1 7/8"

If the exhaust is quiet and fairly drone-less, then I'll see what other tips I might want on there.


Jims88 (stumpster60@gmail.com) MSG #204, 10-08-2013 09:28 PM
      Just my 2 cents Trinten,
One of the measurements I struggled with, when choosing my tips was the 6-1/2" maximum width, at the body cut outs below the bumper.

Good luck with your tips!


fieroguru MSG #205, 10-10-2013 11:54 AM
      Took a break from the fabrication side and started working on documenting all the harness changes. Here are the spreadsheets I put together that will guide me through the harness build. Everything in white is wired just like stock, everything in grey isn't needed and will be removed from the harness, everything in green has something non-stock about it. There are 8 wires (coils and injectors) that need flipped due to the difference in the SBC and LS1 firing patterns, then you get into the swapped components (TPI IAC and TPS, LS7 MAF, L31 cam sensor, LT1 knock sensors, F23 VSS sensor, etc). On all these non-stock items, I had to cross-reference the wires and pin locations at the connector as almost all of them changed with the sensor changes.









fieroguru MSG #206, 10-12-2013 07:04 PM
      Front side header is all tacked up.


Coolant crossover pipe is also almost done:


Just need to fill the hole in this bracket to make it smaller and weld it to the pipe:


Still pondering where to put the coils... Having the wires come from the bottom will keep everything hidden, but there isn't much room for the coils down there unless I put some studs in the oil pan flange and make the coil brackets hang off the oil pan. Or run the wires from the top side and mount the coils off the ends of the heads like my LS4 has them...


Trinten MSG #207, 10-12-2013 09:47 PM
      I don't want to steal the look you setup for yours, but it sounds like mounting it the way you setup on the LS4 will also help make it easier to route the wires away from heat sources, and reduce how much shielding you have to do - or am I misunderstanding the setup?

With the coil packs low in your first proposal, will I need to worry about water or road debris getting kicked up?

Header looks awesome!!



fieroguru MSG #208, 10-13-2013 03:06 PM
      Modified the bracket and tacked it to the pipe:


Then I got to work on the coils and mounting them off the heads. One of the big differences between the SBC and the LS4 is the distance from the head to bellhousing face as well as the adapter plate. I had to make sure that once the coils were mounted, the connectors could come off while clearing the adapter plate. To do a mockup with the wiring, I took one of the brand new coil sub harnesses and removed the plastic housing and all the tape:



Then using the same 1" spacers and a long 1/4" carriage bolt I attached the coils into a "pack" and connected the wires and did a test fit to determine how long the stand offs needed to be:



Whipped out a couple of coil brackets:



Coils installed:




Adapter plate to connector clearance pics:




Trinten MSG #209, 10-13-2013 07:45 PM
      I laughed about your comment about whipping up some brackets, what came to mind was something like:

"No big deal, just cranked out a couple awesome adapters for the coil packs. Did some welding and cleanup work while sleeping, because damn I'm good."


fieroguru MSG #210, 10-13-2013 08:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

I laughed about your comment about whipping up some brackets, what came to mind was something like:

"No big deal, just cranked out a couple awesome adapters for the coil packs. Did some welding and cleanup work while sleeping, because damn I'm good."


Yeah, I though you would get a kick out of my word choice. Since there were essentially copies of the ones I made for the LS4, I knew what was needed.

I thought I already had a template for the bolt patterns on both ends of the SBC heads, but couldn't find them, so used card board to trace the shape, transfer to 16ga and shear to size/shape. Refine the shape to match the head, then use the threaded center punches to transfer the bolt hole pattern one at a time. Once both 16ga templates were made, trace them on 1/8" plate, cut slightly oversize, clamp the template to the 1/8 plate while keeping a 3/8" gap between them, drill the bolt pattern, remove the spacers and bolt them together again, grind the 1/8" plate to the shape of the template, repeat for other bracket. Then back to the 1/8" plate and cut out six 1 x 1 1/4" rectangles, weld them to the 1" round sleeves, assemble the coil packs with the spacers and standoffs, position on the plate, tack weld the corners, disassemble everything, weld the standoffs, clean up the welds on the top side, round the corners, bolt to the engine, assemble the coil packs, take pictures.

The only issue I came across with this set is if I used the single stand off on top and the dual standoffs on the bottom (like the LS4 ones), the bottom standoffs interfered with a bolt hole. So I flipped them and put the duals up top and the single on the bottom


Trinten MSG #211, 10-13-2013 08:38 PM
      ^
|
|

Everyone, that is what FieroGuru considers "whipped up". Seriously.

Looks awesome man.


fieroguru MSG #212, 10-18-2013 08:13 PM
      The more I looked at and reviewed the shifter bracket, the more I just wasn't liking it much, so I decided to redo it.

Here are some pics of what the new one is starting to look like. I just need to finish the final shaping and tack weld it before the next test fit:





fieroguru MSG #213, 10-19-2013 05:17 PM
      Tacked the 2 shifter pieces together:


Started knocking out a lot of little things to finish the accessory drive. I turned some aluminum spacers to replace the washers used for mockup on the A/C bracket:



Also counter bored the bottom AC compressor hole so it will clear the belt:


Trimmed off the top hole on the AC bracket so it would only have 4 holes like the engine bracket:


Then I fabbed up the rear support for the AC compressor:



Moving on to the Alternator bracket, I made some aluminum spacers to replace the washers:


Fabbed up the backside support bracket:



Fabbed up a spacer sleeve for the tensioner to properly align the pulley on the tensioner:


Found a spacer the right thickness for the idler pulley as well (I will pick up a new idler when I pick up the new belt):


Mocked up the accessory drive to get the needed belt length:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-19-2013).]

joshua riedl MSG #214, 10-19-2013 06:43 PM
      What cables does this transmission use?

fieroguru MSG #215, 10-19-2013 07:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by joshua riedl:
What cables does this transmission use?


This car was used for the Getrag F23 tutorial: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/087296.html
That thread states the car uses a stock Getrag Select cable and a custom length cable for the shift cable.

I am a stickler for detail and think the statement that it uses a stock Getrag select cable is somewhat misleading. The only reason the select cable works in this Fiero is because it is of the adjustable aftermarket style. The stock OEM getrag select cable as well as the cables from Rodney Dickman are non-adjustable and will not work with this bracket setup.

Here is a picture of a Rodney Dickman Getrag Select cable (top cable) side by side the one that is in this car. Notice in the fully retracted state, the distance from the mounting boss and the ball ends are significantly different, and you can see quite a bit of the adjustment has been used to make the sleeve of the cable longer.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/087296.html

I would classify this as a modified sleeve length getrag select cable.



joshua riedl MSG #216, 10-19-2013 07:54 PM
      I already have my car setup with stock select cables and saw you broke yours and was wondering if this car had a stronger solution. It shifts nice but I'm afraid to jam the gears. I also noticed that even with my adjustable pushrod as short as it goes I'm having an over travel issue where the clutch reengages. I'm wondering if this is a spec clutch issue or an f23 issue. Easy fix either way I suppose. Great build though, it one of the few threads I look forward to when I see updates.

fieroguru MSG #217, 10-19-2013 09:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by joshua riedl:

I already have my car setup with stock select cables and saw you broke yours and was wondering if this car had a stronger solution. It shifts nice but I'm afraid to jam the gears. I also noticed that even with my adjustable pushrod as short as it goes I'm having an over travel issue where the clutch reengages. I'm wondering if this is a spec clutch issue or an f23 issue. Easy fix either way I suppose. Great build though, it one of the few threads I look forward to when I see updates.


The cable issue on my F40 swap is due to using the thinner select cable for the shift cable. The forces the shift cable sees are just too high for the select cable. This F23 swap has a legitimate shift cable for the shift functions, so it should be OK.

The overextension issue is likely a mismatch between the HTOB travel, the design of the pressure place fingers, and the clutch disk or a combination there of.



fieroguru MSG #218, 10-20-2013 05:10 PM
      Knocking out several little odds and ends as I get ready for another test fit.

Installed the heater supply AN fitting and hose end:


Installed the AN fittings for the water pump as well and took a picture of the accessory side nearly done (except belt and paint):


Installed the MAP sensor to the upper plenum. It is on the front side of the plenum, so you won't see it, but it still is easy to get to for future replacement:


Tweaked the throttle body TPS lever so it would engage the sensor lever. Here is a before pic:


After:


Installed a 180 degree thermostat:


Plugged the vent line hole in the thermostat housing:


Thought about the PCV routing and ended up flipping the valve covers side to side so the PCV can be on the rear one (along with the oil fill) and the front one is for the clean/metered air inlet. The rear side I used a brass compression fitting on the underside of the intake and then bent up a hard line that connects to the PCV valve with some head shrink (not shown). The front side I made a housing for another compression fitting, then bent up a hard line to the throttle body where more heat shrink will be used to seal the throttle body end. These hard lines will be painted black before final assembly.

Here is the rear PCV line:



Here is the front PCV line:


Started routing the plug wires. Every plug end has a DEI boot protector sleeve to keep header temps from causing damage. The coils boots are not installed as I like to mock the wires up and take some time to look at them before locking into the final routing. But I think this routing has promise.




I straightened the oil dipstick, removed the mangled bracket, and then reshaped it for a decent route past everything. I still need to cut it down (way too tall) and make a new hold down bracket.


I am hoping to do another test fit some time this week to verify the shifter bracket, work on water pump placement and hose routing, fab up the throttle cable bracket, fab up the cold air intake, and do some pondering on the exhaust.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-20-2013).]

Trinten MSG #219, 10-20-2013 05:24 PM
      That looks awesome! Thank you for the update.

ltlfrari (dave_ellis_@hotmail.com) MSG #220, 10-20-2013 05:58 PM
      It looks awesome but I have to laugh. I keep seeing pics of this wonderful beast of an engine and there, tucked away under it is the same tired ol' crummy a/c compressor without so much as a lick of paint to make it look 'nice'.
Truly fabulous work though.



Trinten MSG #221, 10-20-2013 06:07 PM
      LOL,

When it comes to the A/C... as long as it's functional I'm happy. Besides, buried down there, it'd get so dirty and such, I don't worry about it. I don't even know if there are better (or smaller) compressors out there, or if it'd be worth it to slap a smaller one in there.



fieroguru MSG #222, 10-20-2013 07:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
That looks awesome!


Glad you like how it is shaping up!

 
quote
Originally posted by ltlfrari:
It looks awesome but I have to laugh. I keep seeing pics of this wonderful beast of an engine and there, tucked away under it is the same tired ol' crummy a/c compressor without so much as a lick of paint to make it look 'nice'.


I did scrape/knock about 1/4" of grease/grime off the compressor, does that count? However, the picture of the end does show that the compressor is still in need of some cleaning.

This is just the mockup stage. Once everything has been fabricated/test fitted, then it all comes apart for further cleaning/painting. However, painting the A/C compressor wasn't in the scope of work, and I hadn't plan on doing much more to it than brush it off.

 
quote
Originally posted by ltlfrari:
Truly fabulous work though.


Thanks!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-20-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #223, 10-23-2013 08:31 PM
      The coolant fill cap came in today (along with some other stuff):



After some pondering, I think I found the best place for the brake booster vacuum line:



Here it is with the braided stainless hose:


Added in the fuel line:


Then started playing around with the AC hose routing. I am going to have to tweak them a little to clear where the knock sensor needs to go.:


[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-23-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #224, 10-25-2013 08:53 PM
      Trimmed down the oil dipstick tube. Now I just need to remove the roll pin that secured the top, drill a new hole in the dipstick metal, then cut the excess off, then reassemble.


Put the drivetrain back into the chassis for hopefully the last test fit. I plan to connect all the hoses, cables, air intake, water pump and thottle before pulling it back out again for cleaning/painting and the engine bay detailing.

The first minor issue the test fit revealed was I needed to tweak the shape of the shifter bracket. Since it didn't fit as tacked together, I cut the spot welds and tested the base place and it fit just fine:


Then I slid the top part of the bracket as close to the strut tower and marked where it needed to be trimmed:



Trimmed, smoothed, tacked and ready to go back in:





The coolant fittings for the water pump fit like they should:


The heater hose will go down in the small space between the belt and the passenger frame rail. It will be clamped to the passenger frame rail to keep it away from the belt:


The rear header clears everything in the rear and the front one has even more room:


Here is a pic of the plug wires:




CowsPatoot MSG #225, 10-26-2013 02:27 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


That looks angry...I like it.


Trinten MSG #226, 10-26-2013 11:23 AM
      Looking fantastic!

Sorry that the new shifter bracket gave you so much trouble though :/

The result was definitely nice. Thank you for the work you put into it.


fieroguru MSG #227, 10-26-2013 07:54 PM
      Started fabbing up the 4" cold air intake.

Step 1 was press in the honeycomb mesh for the LS7 MAF:




Compressed the end so the tube goes from round to oval so it will be closer to the shape of the TPI throttle body:



Then lots of cutting/test fitting the three different 90 degree bends to make this:






The shifter is hooked up and smoothly shifts to all gears:


Then I pulled the console/skeleton out so I could swap out the throttle cable to an 88 4cyl one that is longer. Then I started to mock up the cable and noticed that
the cable cam that was welded onto the throttle body wasn't properly centered and wasn't working with the available travel. Here is what it looked like before I modified it:


Then I cut it off, repositioned it and welded it back together:



Here is a mockup with the cable and just starting to cut the material for the bracket. I will likely trim off the extra barrel end:



fieroguru MSG #228, 10-27-2013 02:35 PM
      Finished the dipstick mod.

Pushed out the roll pin to remove the metal band:


using the section of the tube that was removed, mark the new hole location, drill hole, mark the new cut line, and place a tack weld where the seal retainer ring goes.


Install seal retainer ring:


Install seal sleeve, handle and press in the dowel pin. In this pic you can also see the section of the tube and section of the banding that was removed::


When I did a test fit in the car, the handle was perpendicular to the valve covers. Not really any issue, but I wanted it parallel, so I put the banding in the vice and used a crescent wrench to twist the banding 90 degrees:



Welded up the shifter bracket and smoothed the welds:



Welded up the cold air intake (still need to add the MAF mount):


Removed the extra barrel on the throttle cable. I used my portable drill vice to hold the barrel, then carefully used a cut off disk to slit the barrel most of the way to the wire (but making sure not to nick the wire). I did this on both sides, then snapped it into 2 halves.



Finished up the throttle cable bracket, welded it and smoothed the welds. It used the factory style mounting and retainment for the 88 throttle cable:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-27-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #229, 11-10-2013 06:18 PM
      Been out of town for the last week or so, but finally got back to working on this car. Before I left, I had started making these aluminum angle plates so the water pump would have mounting brackets, and I tapped the aluminum for the A/N fittings:



Here is the approximate location for the water pump. It is well below the water level in the radiator, so it should self prime when the radiator is filled.


The bottom of the water pump wasn't supported, so I fabbed up a piece of sheet metal and tacked it into place. I will do more welding to it once the cradle is back out:



Then I started working on the braided stainless hoses. Here is one of the large hoses between the engine and water pump. The one with the red/blue fitting is just for mockup purposes (used), I had to order some more -12 hose for the other side:




The new fuel filter/regulator will go in my normal spot, right behind the fuel tank.


Measured the hose to length and then remove it to put on the hose end:


The brake booster hose was a little different. I had already installed the fitting on the intake side, but now needed to cut it to length and sleeve it so I can use a hose clamp to attach it to the brake booster hard line at the firewall. When I cut the hoses, I wrap the end tightly with electrical tape, then remove it to install the fitting. This time I removed most of it, but left about 2 wraps. Then I installed 2 sections of heat shrink and trimmed the hose again. Then installed the 3rd and last section of heat shrink and allowed it to overhang the end some to seal up all the stainless wires.


The heater hose supply hose was a little more involved. I trimmed the hard line, sanded it to bare aluminum, installed a 5/8" compression fitting, then a 90 degree AN fitting:




Braided Stainless hose central (ignore the red/blue mockup hose - it will be just like the others when done):


The other line (heater core return) will be routed into the passenger coolant tube (like the 88's) before the water pump, so it won't need to be routed into the engine bay.

Here are the hoses I built today:



sleevePAPA MSG #230, 11-10-2013 08:25 PM
      I've been waiting for an update on this. Nice!

Trinten MSG #231, 11-10-2013 10:24 PM
      That all looks so nice!

Thank you for the update!!


fieroguru MSG #232, 11-16-2013 02:51 PM
      The braided stainless hose came in, so I finished making the last hose:



The connection from the coolant tube to the water pump will be a pretty simple hose to find (the coolant tube was trimmed back to its current location by previous installer):


While under the car, I took a couple of pictures of how much I can close up the current frame notch. I used a straight edge to show the approximate location of the new metal I can add back while working on the engine bay:



I never took a picture of the boss I added to the rear transmission mount:


Then I did a little mockup of the resonator and muffler to see how much room there is (quite a bit with the trunk already having been removed):






Fabbed up the MAF mounting boss for the CAI:



Here is an overall pic before I take it all back apart for engine bay prep, cleaning/painting:


Trinten MSG #233, 11-16-2013 03:36 PM
      "It's 3:30 in the afternoon, do you know how awesome your car is?"

Why yes, yes I do. Because Guru just put up a post showing off some of the kick-butt stuff he's done! And I got a peek of the setup with the new serpentine belt in place! Which made me really happy - something I definitely needed after the last few weeks (and upcoming 6 more weeks) of work.

I'm loving it man. Thank you.


fieroguru MSG #234, 11-16-2013 07:58 PM
      Drivetrain is back on the bench and I started to take some things apart:


I also knocked off the old ring gear and heated up and installed the new one. Here is the flywheel w/o the ring gear:



The reason it is being replaced:


New one installed:


fieroguru MSG #235, 11-17-2013 05:41 PM
      Fabbed up the bracket to hold the oil dipstick tube:




Worked on the heat shield for the alternator. I ended up adding it to the rear alternator support bracket:



Also welded up the collectors and primaries on the headers:






I should finished up the heat shields for the starter and tripod boot on Monday, then I will just be waiting for the O2 sensor bungs to arrive so I can add them and ship the headers off to be coated. Hopefully I will also start taking more stuff apart so I can start cleaning/painting all the parts I have fabbed for this swap.


fieroguru MSG #236, 11-18-2013 12:31 PM
      Knocked out the other two heat shields today.













fieroguru MSG #237, 11-18-2013 02:41 PM
      Also finished up the oil relocation plumbing. With the starter mod for the 142 tooth ring gear, I had to use some copper pipe at the connection to the blockoff plate, so I used it to get around the starter and provide a location for the oil pressure sensor. All assembled it looks like this:


Installed with the braided stainless hoses, it looks like this:




Now its time to start taking everything apart...


Trinten MSG #238, 11-18-2013 11:08 PM
      Nice! I really like the change for placement for the oil pressure sensor! And the heat shields are great!


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #239, 11-19-2013 11:25 PM
      Welcome to the Construction Zone. Cool build, by the way.

ericjon262 MSG #240, 11-21-2013 03:37 PM
      I've always hated adapter plate swaps(mainly because most seem like hack swaps.), but I do love seeing the ingenuity that has gone into this build. keep up the good work.



fieroguru MSG #241, 11-21-2013 08:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

I've always hated adapter plate swaps(mainly because most seem like hack swaps.), but I do love seeing the ingenuity that has gone into this build. keep up the good work.



Thanks! I like for my swaps to have a little creative flair!

Some aspects of this swap are very similar to the last SBC I did (like the serpentine belt conversion, the thermostat housing to rigid pipe plumbing, the A/N adapters for the water pump ports on the block, the used of sheet metal heat shields, etc). Other aspects are very similar to my LS4 swap (coil packs, 4" cold air intake and use of the LS7 MAF sensor), then there are many other items with unique solutions just for this swap (F23 mounts, F23 shifter bracket, cradle mods to lower the drive train, IAC relocation, throttle cable bracket, hard lines for PCV, the headers, etc).

Hopefully over the weekend I will be able to take a picture of all the pieces I made or significantly modified for this swap, just to give an indication of the work that has been put into it.

The O2 sensor bungs came in today, so I will try to have the headers complete Friday and should be able to ship them to the coaters early next week.


fieroguru MSG #242, 11-23-2013 02:08 PM
      Welded the o2 sensor bungs to the headers:


Then I started taking everything apart. The engine is back on the stand:


Transmission hanging out on the floor:


Here is everything I fabricated for the swap (except the engine and transmission brackets that are welded to the cradle):


Here is everything that I have modified in some manner (throttle cable and the fittings for the water pump ports on the engine not shown):





fieroguru MSG #243, 11-24-2013 07:56 PM
      Just been sanding, cleaning and priming...


Several more parts are still drying.


fieroguru MSG #244, 11-25-2013 08:10 PM
      The stack of primed parts is getting larger:


The headers boxed up and shipping them to the coaters on Tuesday.


CowsPatoot MSG #245, 11-28-2013 08:05 PM
      I jumped in to complain about the lack of updates and discovered it was moved to the construction zone.

The fact that the passenger side axle still hasn't been removed kind of bothers me. Is that an issue that should be dealt with while everything is apart? Or just wait till it breaks and assume the worst?


fieroguru MSG #246, 11-29-2013 01:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by CowsPatoot:
The fact that the passenger side axle still hasn't been removed kind of bothers me.


It had tried several times over the course of the built to remove the axle and discussed the issue with Vince. He didn't want me to break the transmission getting the axle out, and it wasn't too much of an inconvenience keeping it in, so I stopped messing with it, and just worked around it. While I had the transmission on the bench taking apart the shifter arms, I looked down the other side of the differential expecting to see a cross shaft blocking access to the other side. I was quite shocked with I saw this:


Through the small hole is the end of the tripod for the other side... Which means I can use this method to try one last time to remove the axle:



It didn't come out without a fight, but it is now out. You can see all the way through the hole in the center:


I suspect this is what was causing the axle to want to stay put. Not real sure what caused it, but I will just use another axle when it goes back together:


Been busy cleaning/scrubbing the transmission in preparation for painting...


fieroguru MSG #247, 11-29-2013 05:39 PM
      It was odd that there wasn't a cross shaft for the spider gears in the diff, so I pulled the VSS sensor and took a look inside. It has a limited slip (and a good one at that)!


After the transmission was cleaned, I put it on the engine stand a wire brushed it some more to remove as much oxidation from it prior to painting it:





Taped off or capped off everything that should be painted and then painted it:


New Axle seals:



Then I reworked the shifter arm. I added some weld to build up some areas, ground everything smooth and removed the other side that wasn't needed any longer:



Cleaned and primed the shifter levers as well as the VSS bracket. I used tape to cover the ball studs, shafts and the square section that has a bushing slide in:



fieroguru MSG #248, 11-30-2013 05:41 PM
      Sanded the coolant crossover tube and primed it:



Same with the cold air intake:


Still working on wire wheeling the cradle:




fieroguru MSG #249, 12-01-2013 06:57 PM
      The cradle had a layer or two of paint, then topped with POR15 (which doesn't stick to paint or clean metal for that matter), so it was a pealing mess. I ended up wire brushing the whole thing down to bare metal:





Then primed it with self etching primer like all the other parts:



I think on Tuesday I will mix up some black paint and have a little parts painting party...


Jims88 (stumpster60@gmail.com) MSG #250, 12-02-2013 06:55 PM
      WOW that's some serious wire brushing!
Turned out nice though!


fieroguru MSG #251, 12-02-2013 07:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Jims88:

WOW that's some serious wire brushing!
Turned out nice though!


This thing did most of the work, but for some reason my right arm was still numb after using it for several hours.


ericjon262 MSG #252, 12-02-2013 08:46 PM
      how many wires have you pulled out of your forearms today?



fieroguru MSG #253, 12-02-2013 09:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
how many wires have you pulled out of your forearms today?


None. I wore leather gloves and heavy coat, but each time I took a break to rest my arm, I did pull a bunch of wires from everything I was wearing.


zkhennings MSG #254, 12-03-2013 07:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


None. I wore leather gloves and heavy coat, but each time I took a break to rest my arm, I did pull a bunch of wires from everything I was wearing.


The worst is pulling wires out of your stomach!


fieroguru MSG #255, 12-03-2013 08:54 PM
      The headers are done at the coaters and should be here later this week.

I was able to get all the primed parts painted this evening, but will take the pictures on Wednesday.


fieroguru MSG #256, 12-04-2013 08:15 PM
      Here are some painted pics:







fieroguru MSG #257, 12-05-2013 09:36 PM
      The headers came back today from the coaters:







fieroguru MSG #258, 12-07-2013 02:34 PM
      As I work to start putting everything back together, I needed to build the injector harness because it ends up sandwiched between the plenum and lower intake. So I started with the injector pigtails and put about 6" of shrink tube on them to protect the wires:


Then I started with a stock LS van harness (PCM mounted inside) that looked like this:


Removed all this stuff:


None of this is needed either (auto trans, post cat O2s, evap, abs, fuel tank stuff, oil pressure stuff, and other wires that I will use the fiero 203/500 harness for):


Here is what I need of the old stock harness to make the new one:


Now I will get started on the injector harness...



fieroguru MSG #259, 12-07-2013 07:48 PM
      Started building the harness at the injectors. All the injectors are spun around so the connector is hidden behind the fuel rail.


Taped down the harness into the grooves so the plenum won't pinch them.


Each bank was kept separate mainly so they could pass between the injectors and lower intake to keep them as hidden as possible. I will loom them together after the injectors:


View from the front side with the injector harness complete... no visible wires!:


Installed the brake booster line and added some heat shrink to it so it doesn't wear the paint off the coil bracket:


Installed the distributor hold down:


Sealed the base plate on the throttle body and installed the IAC housing:


Installed the cable pull on the throttle body, the throttle body itself, the throttle cable bracket and the rear PCV line:


fieroguru MSG #260, 12-08-2013 03:15 PM
      Did a little more harness work. This engine/intake/ecm combo means a mixture of sensors and connector ends.

The Crank & Cam Sensors and pigtails come from the L31 (96-2002 Vortec 350).
The TPS and IAC Sensors and pigtails come from the 85-91 TPI applications (fiero V6 pigtails can be used as well).
The Knock Sensors come from a 95-96 LT1, pigtails come from any GM single wire knock sensor.
The 3 wire coolant switch allows only 1 coolant sensor, there was a left over pigtail post harness disassemble that will work for this (ECM oil pressure sender).
The MAP sensor and pigtail are LS1 (pigtail came with harness)
The MAF is LS7, but the 06 harness I am using had the right MAF connector.

Loomed up the TPS, IAC, MAF and ECT wires (I still need to clean some of the connectors):




Then I put the VSS bracket back on the transmission:


Installed the shifter levers and cable bracket:



Cleaned all the paint off the adapter plate. I want to sand/smooth it so it looks good again.


I am traveling for work this next week, so don't expect any significant updates until next weekend. The pressure plate should arrive while I am gone, so when I get back I can put the engine/transmission together and back on the cradle.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-08-2013).]

motoracer838 (jmartin@musicunveiled.com) MSG #261, 12-08-2013 07:55 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:






In all the harness work I've done, it never occured to me to break out all the ciructs like that, brilliant.

Joe


fieroguru MSG #262, 12-08-2013 09:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by motoracer838:
In all the harness work I've done, it never occured to me to break out all the ciructs like that, brilliant.

Joe


It takes longer, but it allows me to easily route the new harness where i want it. I do all my harnesses this way.



Chris Hodson MSG #263, 12-09-2013 12:15 AM
      Awesome fab skills, looks like a clean build.

CTFieroGT87 (ct5585@yahoo.com) MSG #264, 12-09-2013 08:25 AM
      Awesome build! Keep up the inspiration!

fieroguru MSG #265, 12-21-2013 06:34 PM
      Back at it!

The pressure clutch net pressure plate arrived, so I could start putting the engine and transmission back together:



I smoothed down the rough cut edges of the adapter plate. Here is the first pass on the belt sander:


I finished it with a DA sander and 320 grit so it has a smooth matte look to it:


Once the clutch was installed, I double checked the placement of the clutch fingers and the range of motion for the HTOB. The clutch fingers protruded 2.012" from the bellhousing face and the range of motion for the HTOB was 1.645" to 2.356"... so the HTOB will be nearly centered when installed, which will work just fine.

Then it was time to install the transmission. Since I drilled and tapped all the 7/16" holes in the adapter plate to 1/2", I installed a couple of 1/2" alignment bolts to help the input shaft line up and to help me support the transmission while wiggling it:


With the transmission connected to the engine once more, I put the drivetrain back on the cradle and tightened all the mounting bolts:



The accessory drive is also back together as well:


Before I put a lot more of the drivetrain back together, I want to continue looming up the harness wires. From the pile of unneeded connector/wires from the 2006 harness tear down, I found the needed ends with plenty of wire length for the back up lights and VSS on the F23. The VSS uses the ISS (input shaft sensor) connector for the 4L60 (or maybe 4L80) and the backup lights use the connector for the oil level sensor:



The pigtails for the Cam and Crank sensors (both are AC Delco PT420) arrived, so on Sunday I will continue with heat shrinking connector ends and building portions of the harness starting from the various termination points.


fieroguru MSG #266, 12-23-2013 07:17 PM
      More wiring/harness work...

Crankshaft sensor connection:


Ground, O2 sensor, Knock Sensor - Bank 2, ECM temp sensor & Temp gauge connections:


VSS and Reverse Light, and Ground connections:


Bank 2 side of the harness going under the coils and following the bellhousing to the other side:


Also finished up the sub loom from the top side. All 8 Injectors, MAP Sensor, TPS Sensor, IAC Sensor, Camshaft Position Sensor, MAF Sensor wires coming down and will join the main harness at the bellhousing and follow it under the Bank 1 coils:



I still need to work on the Bank 1 side (Alternator, AC, Knock Sensor Bank 1, O2 sensor Bank 1, Oil Pressure Sensor, & Starter) and the wires for the 8 coils.

The wideband harness will be loomed up separately so it can be easily removed/replaced at a later date. It will be in shrink wrap its entire length from the O2 sensor to the passenger compartment.

Ordered the new O2 sensors, all the ECM pins, the GM ECM holder and a few other parts today.

Here is a picture with the rear header on:


sleevePAPA MSG #267, 12-23-2013 07:54 PM
      Still watching, nice work!

ericjon262 MSG #268, 12-23-2013 11:50 PM
      wow, just realized you must have spent a fortune on all of though allen head fasteners....

fieroguru MSG #269, 12-24-2013 09:08 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

wow, just realized you must have spent a fortune on all of though allen head fasteners....


The stainless button heads are a sickness... I really like using them on my swaps in the visible low load areas. I have spent about $150 in stainless bolts for this swap, but I don't consider that to be terribly expensive, especially given all the other hardware on this swap.


fieroguru MSG #270, 12-24-2013 05:28 PM
      The front side harness sub loom is nearly complete...

Alternator ground cable (just in case it doesn't ground well through the bracket):



The main engine to chassis ground cable connection (shared with the alternator ground):


I will weld a stainless bolt to the chassis for this end to attach to:


A/C and alternator connections and the front ground (main power cable will be shown later):


O2, Knock, Oil pressure, and starter switch connections:


Front loom routed to bellhousing area:


Main power cable from alternator to starter (stock LS4 alternator to starter cable with integrated 200 amp fusible link). This will be ran in a corrugated plastic cable sleeve to help protect it from rubbing.:





I also mounted the coils:



Trinten MSG #271, 12-28-2013 10:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Welcome to the Construction Zone. Cool build, by the way.


Thanks BlackTree,

FieroGuru has been great about sending me PMs with updates. And recently he had mentioned he was going to have some more stuff up in the thread. I realized that I hadn't gotten a notice of posts being made to the thread. So I found my old thread, and was shocked when I saw it said "Thread Closed" -- I was like "What happened?!" then saw the link about it being moved here!! lol

Everything looks incredible FieroGuru, thank you so much for all the attention to detail you've put into this.

I think the alternator I have on there puts out 230 Amps, will that cause problems with the 200 amps fusible link you installed?

Seriously pumped up about this!

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 12-28-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #272, 12-29-2013 03:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
Everything looks incredible FieroGuru, thank you so much for all the attention to detail you've put into this.

I think the alternator I have on there puts out 230 Amps, will that cause problems with the 200 amps fusible link you installed?

Seriously pumped up about this!


Thanks!

The alternator is part # 47802 and should be a 140 amp alternator, unless you had a local shop do the upgrade to 230 amp. Fully loaded LS4 cars come with a 135 amp alternator, so 140 should be fine for this swap.

Put the oil filter housing back on:


Then the coolant crossover pipe and front header:


Also the 4" air intake tube to verify the MAF wires are long enough:


This looks like a good place for the ECM. It will be mostly hidden from view and away from any significant heat sources. Just need to make a support bracket that will attach to the cradle via the stock transmission mount holes:


To hold the ECM, a truck ECM holder is used. Its pretty much flat and I can cut off all the stock mounting tabs and bolt it to a custom mounting bracket.



After Monday I will be all caught up on packages to ship and other customer orders and will have another 2 days off for the holiday to get more done on this.


Trinten MSG #273, 12-29-2013 05:02 PM
      Thank you for the catch! You are right, it was a 140 amp Alternator. I don't know why I was thinking 230.

Looks so fricking sweet!! I really like how the black and silver/chrome is turning out.

Even though the paint is years from being done, I think I'm going to spring for a car cover now... help reduce the amount of leaves and crap that'll get down through the vents and make it look lousy -- I'm sure you found a few pounds of pine needles floating around everything.

Thanks again!!


fieroguru MSG #274, 01-01-2014 06:05 PM
      A few parts have shown up since the last update.
The exhaust gaskets. These have a removable gasket around the ports, so we will see how they do.


LS1 Camaro heated O2 sensors:


Pins for the ECM terminals:


I test fitted the header gaskets on the rear of the engine. The headers have a larger (taller) taller opening.


Then the gaskets, header, heat shield, O2 sensor and V-band clamp were all installed:



Before I could finish up the header install in the front, I had to finish the power cable from the alternator to the starter:





The cable coming off the starter and going to the bottom goes to the +12 junction by the 500 connector, but all the 500 terminations and this +12 junction will happen in the center console area. There will be 1 more cable connected to the starter - the +12 battery cable from the front of the car.


Front header, heat shield, O2 sensor and V-band clamp installed:


Here is the gap between the heat shield and the starter terminal:


Then I went back to wiring. Bank 1 coils are loomed up and ready for terminating at the other ends.


I started on Bank 2, but it isn't ready for pictures yet.



Trinten MSG #275, 01-01-2014 06:39 PM
      Oh wow! Even with the o2 sensors that close to the exhaust, they still needed to be the heated style? Damn, I didn't realize their required operating temps were that high! I would have bought the wrong ones... probably caused a bunch of issues when trying to get it tuned.

And this, everyone, is one of the many reasons why I ask people who know waaay more than I do to work on this thing. lol

Looking incredibly awesome...


fieroguru MSG #276, 01-04-2014 06:15 PM
      With OBD2 the O2 sensors are heated to make their readings more consistent. I use them on pretty much every swap these days.

Back to the wiring...

Bank 2 coils are wired up:


Coil sub harness joining the main harness:


Top side sub harness joining the main harness:


Here you can see the front sub harness join the main harness and then the wires split with one set going to the ECM area and the others pull aside to go inside the passenger area:


Then I started working on the wideband... more wiring. The wire length from the wideband O2 sensor to the controller is quite short and would require the controlled to be in the engine bay along the engine. The controller has 2 cables that are not needed, so they have to be coiled up and the other cable with the connection wires is too long... so I coil things up like this:


Now to put the controller inside, I have to extend the O2 sensor wires, so start with a simple cut:


Use some matching male/female connector ends to repair the cut:



Here is the controller with the new connector end and the approximate location it will be located. The O2 harness runs on the stationary side of the shifter, the other cable will be wire tied to the vacuum tube to keep it away from the shifter:






While in the car, I measured the distance from the connector to the firewall so I can make the jumper section of wire using the same connector ends:


Here is an approximate location for the wideband O2 sensor:


Then I wire tied the wideband sub harness to the engine harness:



Here is the other end ready to go into the car:


On Sunday I am going to take a short break from wiring and fab up the ecm bracket. Once that's done, I can start terminating the wires at the ecm.


fieroguru MSG #277, 01-10-2014 07:26 PM
      I am glad the single digit temps have left KY!

Started on the ECM bracket. Cut all the plastic tabs off the ecm holder, cut out a piece of 16ga to bolt to the back, marked the holes, countersunk the ones on the holder side (so they can't touch the ecm and ground the case), and then bolted it together:





fieroguru MSG #278, 01-11-2014 01:21 PM
      The ECM mount is now done, I will paint it once the wiring terminations at the ecm are done.

Fabbed up this bracket to bolt to the cradle and weld to the back plate on the ecm holder:














fieroguru MSG #279, 01-11-2014 08:18 PM
      All wires have been terminated at ecm:





Trinten MSG #280, 01-12-2014 10:55 AM
      Nice!

I saw some papers floating around there with some highlighting - was tracing things to rewire a tremendous hassle? I think I had seen all the tracing/crossing work you had to do on your swap, so I was just hoping this was not that intense.

Thank you for the great tutorial. I really like the solution came up with for the ECM!


fieroguru MSG #281, 01-12-2014 11:15 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Nice!

I saw some papers floating around there with some highlighting - was tracing things to rewire a tremendous hassle? I think I had seen all the tracing/crossing work you had to do on your swap, so I was just hoping this was not that intense.

Thank you for the great tutorial. I really like the solution came up with for the ECM!


Glad you like it!

I make an excel spreadsheet for the wiring on all my swaps. I start with the full factory pinout from the service manual, then delete (highlight in grey) the items not needed. If I swap in any different component vs. what came with the ecm, then I have to double check the wiring between multiple manuals (F23 vss, TPI IAC & TPS, LT1 knock sensors, EFI connection CAM & Crank Sensors, 3 wire temp sender, wideband signal in place of fuel tank pressure) and make sure the ecm ends have the right pin locations. Something special for this swap is the firing order between the SBC and LS1 are different, so the ecm connections for 4 cylinders and 4 coils needed to be swapped to match the right firing order (green). As I connect the wires, I use a sharpie to mark the connection on the far left of the sheet, then once done I go back through verifying all the empty cavities are supposed to be empty.

Wiring is just a slow tedious process with custom swaps like these, but the more precise I am on the front end, the fewer delays with wiring issues once the engine is in the car and I am trying to get it to start.


Trinten MSG #282, 01-12-2014 12:52 PM
      Holy hell...

So the answer is "Yes, this was a tremendous pain in my butt."

I admire people that can even keep this stuff straight, much less do all that!!

Thank you!!


fieroguru MSG #283, 01-12-2014 04:49 PM
      Today, I was able to get everything ready to start the engine bay work.

Dropped the fuel tank (both t-bolts snapped off) and swapped out the fuel pump. Old pump:


New pump:


New pump installed with the new wiring supplied with the pump. Its also back in the tank and all the ports are plugged. The tank won't be installed until all the work in the engine bay is done:


Then I took out the rest of the interior so I could drill out the rivets holding the insulation to the firewall in the engine bay:




Took off the inner fastback panels so I can fish the wiring to the new route. This will also better allow me to sand and paint the tops of the strut towers:




Hopefully this week I will get the rest of the metal tabs removed, the decklid hinge boxes removed and the dogbone bracket removed. Then I have to weld up the new hinge brackets, fill in a portion of the frame notch, cut out the new location for the wiring pass through (down low by the shifter cables), cut the smooth firewall panel, sand the engine bay and paint it...

Once the engine bay is ready, I can put the engine in and finish the interior connections for the harness, fab up the post header exhaust, and then get it to make noise again.... still quite a bit of work to do, but on the downward slide.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-12-2014).]

Trinten MSG #284, 01-12-2014 06:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

... and then get it to make noise again.... still quite a bit of work to do, but on the downward slide.



This made my day.
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
... but on the downward slide.



And I'm sure you're very happy about that!!



fieroguru MSG #285, 01-15-2014 08:12 PM
      Started removing the tabs and hinge boxes, but still have the tops of the hinge boxes, the 500 mounting bracket, and the dogbone bracket to remove.




Also labeled the wires at the 500 and removed the end:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-15-2014).]

Trinten MSG #286, 01-15-2014 08:39 PM
      I saw the first picture before I read the sentence, and immediately thought "That can't be a good thing..."
I am so happy to be wrong! lol



fieroguru MSG #287, 01-18-2014 03:18 PM
      Hinge boxes are completely gone!


So is the dogbone mount:


Modified the stock hinges with a new mounting plate:





Set the decklid on so I could transfer the holes to the chassis, squared it up, and used some 70lb blocks to hold it flat and in place:


Centered the hinges in the decklid holes:


Drilled the new holes over sized (1/2" for a 1/4" bolt) so there is some adjustment. The rectangular hole on the right of the picture is where the spreader bar will slide up into the tube.


Just waiting for the primer to dry on the spreader bars that will slide into that tube.


Once the primer is dry, I can install them and bolt up the hinges and raise the decklid again:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-18-2014).]

Trinten MSG #288, 01-18-2014 03:37 PM
      Very nice! Those hinges look elegant! My Fiero is getting classy! (it was such a dirty street walker before.)



fieroguru MSG #289, 01-18-2014 05:39 PM
      The spreader bars go in line so:


Then line up the holes (I tapered the holes in the spreader bars so it is easier for the bolts to align with the nut):


Install the hinges and the stainless countersunk bolts:


Decklid on its own hinges again:



Then I cut the new hole for the engine harness pass through connector. Here is the before pic:


Used some tape to measure out the opening:


I cut the hole smaller than needed, then used a burr on the 1/4 air grinder to enlarge the hole to the needed size and to round out the corners:


Connector in place:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-18-2014).]

fieroguru MSG #290, 01-19-2014 02:08 PM
      Smooth firewall panel has been cut to shape and test fitted. Now I need to weld on the spacers on the back side. Started with a full 4x8 sheet of 16 ga and the card board template I made a few years ago:



I use a long piece of steel to help ensure I make straight cuts:


Trimmed (except for the small cut outs for the hinges, I wanted to test fit it so I know exactly where they are):


Test fitted. The 16 ga is flexible enough to slide behind the fuel fill tube and slide into place:





Now I need to mark the mounting holes, drill them, and weld on the spacers... then the firewall panel will be ready for sanding and paint.


Trinten MSG #291, 01-19-2014 03:10 PM
      Very nice! The fit on that is really impressive, especially with the curves and tight spaces. Emc209i and I and a lot of "fun" making a cardboard template for the thermal stuff we had riveted on there, and that stuff was way more forgiving for error!

CowsPatoot MSG #292, 01-21-2014 03:32 AM
      I'm a little confused. With how smooth you made the firewall to begin with, what are the spacers needed for? Is it just for a method of mounting the panel, or is there more to it than that?

fieroguru MSG #293, 01-21-2014 06:28 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by CowsPatoot:

I'm a little confused. With how smooth you made the firewall to begin with, what are the spacers needed for? Is it just for a method of mounting the panel, or is there more to it than that?


The stock firewall has reinforcing ribs that protrude into the engine bay by about 3/16 to 1/4". So I use spacers between the two panels in the flat sections to make sure the new panel doesn't touch the raised portions and isn't wavy when installed. The spacers also allow a gap for insulation to go between the two panels.


Doober MSG #294, 01-24-2014 01:02 AM
      So I've looked through the 2 most recent pages, and gotta say your work appears to be top notch, my applause! I hope to do a nice, clean, proper swap in mine one day.

fieroguru MSG #295, 01-24-2014 06:29 AM
      Thanks for the compliment!

You can see more of my work at my website below.



fieroguru MSG #296, 01-25-2014 04:39 PM
      It was a balmy 35 degrees in the garage today, but I was able to get all the spacers welded to the firewall plate and start drilling the holes in the actual firewall.



On Sunday I should have all the holes drilled and remove the smooth panel again for cleaning/sanding. I will also start cleaning the engine bay in preparation for sanding and painting.




fieroguru MSG #297, 02-01-2014 01:10 PM
      Last Sunday didn't go as planned...

Good news is that it has warmed up and I am back working on this swap. During the weather break, a member PM'd me about the hinge mod and said they flex too much when used with lift cylinders. Since this car will use a lift cylinder, I went ahead and added a reinforcing bar that goes down the majority of the firewall. These reinforcing bars were part of the original discussions when this mod was developed, but I haven't ever needed them since I don't use the lift cylinders. Here are the hinges again with the reinforcing bars (these will be hidden behind the smooth firewall panel:




All the holes needed to secure the smooth firewall panel have also been drilled.


Trinten MSG #298, 02-01-2014 02:42 PM
      Nice! A big thanks to whoever gave you the heads up on those hinges in PM!

Thank you for the update!


fieroguru MSG #299, 02-01-2014 08:07 PM
      I welded countersunk bolts to the bottom braces of the hinges, wired wheeled all the paint/por15 off them, then used some self etching primer on them:



Used a coarse scotchbrite and a bucket of hot soapy water and gave the engine bay its first 2 wash downs to remove most of the grease and grime. I changed out the water and cleaned the scotchbrite pad between the baths. I will do it one last time in the morning. Also DA'd the top of the strut towers to remove all the old POR15 and paint.



Also DA'd the firewall panel and used some self etching primer front/back on it as well.


On Sunday I should be able to paint the hinges, firewall panel and give the engine bay its first coat of black paint...


fieroguru MSG #300, 02-02-2014 01:30 PM
      Before the painting could begin, I wanted to finish the welding to the water pump support plate and to weld on the chassis ground terminal.



After lots of sanding/scuffing:



Car all wrapped up and masked off:




Engine is covered too:


Sealer primer:




In a few hours the first coat of black should go on...




Trinten MSG #301, 02-02-2014 01:37 PM
      Looking great!

If I knew it wouldn't be such a pain to keep clean, I'd be like "That white looks pretty sharp..." lol But that's one of the reasons I like black - hides dirt better!



fieroguru MSG #302, 02-02-2014 06:56 PM
      The engine bay is black again. It is glossy because its wet. Once it dries, it will have a dull satin finish.






qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #303, 02-02-2014 10:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Since this car will use a lift cylinder, I went ahead and added a reinforcing bar that goes down the majority of the firewall. These reinforcing bars were part of the original discussions when this mod was developed, but I haven't ever needed them since I don't use the lift cylinders. Here are the hinges again with the reinforcing bars (these will be hidden behind the smooth firewall panel:





This spring, I'm going to pull out the 3800 from my 88 GT and incorporate a few of these "Guru" mods. I love the hinge delete, the firewall smooth, the harness mods (lower, remove, relocate) and I also like the shift cable mod (2" hole in the floorboard to bring it up out of the gas filler spot). For the hinge delete, I understand the flex issue, but do you offer the hing mod as something for sale? I can do my own support bracket, unless you plan to add that stiffener to the part?

also, I just found this thread, and I'm loving that I get to see a hole bunch of "guru magic". You making LS Fest this year?

Rob


CowsPatoot MSG #304, 02-03-2014 04:18 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
If I knew it wouldn't be such a pain to keep clean, I'd be like "That white looks pretty sharp..." lol But that's one of the reasons I like black - hides dirt better!


Yes...learn from my mistakes with the convertible....you DON'T want white.


fieroguru MSG #305, 02-03-2014 08:03 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:


This spring, I'm going to pull out the 3800 from my 88 GT and incorporate a few of these "Guru" mods. I love the hinge delete, the firewall smooth, the harness mods (lower, remove, relocate) and I also like the shift cable mod (2" hole in the floorboard to bring it up out of the gas filler spot). For the hinge delete, I understand the flex issue, but do you offer the hing mod as something for sale? I can do my own support bracket, unless you plan to add that stiffener to the part?

also, I just found this thread, and I'm loving that I get to see a hole bunch of "guru magic". You making LS Fest this year?

Rob


Glad to see you think some of these mods are worth the effort! I think they really clean up the overall look of the engine bay.

Yes, I can supply the modified hinges with or without the reinforcing leg. I do have a few spare sets of hinges, so I just need to decide how much to charge for them and build the instruction sheet.

Yes, I will be at LS Fest again this year... I will probably make it an annual thing!



fieroguru MSG #306, 02-03-2014 08:07 AM
      Here are some pictures after the paint has dried:







Trinten MSG #307, 02-03-2014 08:59 PM
      That looks awesome! I'll definitely have to get the paint color code from you on that stuff.

fieroguru MSG #308, 02-09-2014 05:49 PM
      Between work being busy and 3 power outages this week due to weather, I didn't make much progress until today.

The hinges, firewall panel, decklid, inner sail window trim and truck weather stripping were installed. Prior to installing the firewall panel, I re-purposed the sound deadening material that was originally on the firewall and used some spray adhesive on the backside of the panel to hold it in place. The material was also trimmed to clear the hinge extensions as well.







The nuts on the inside of the firewall panel. The ones with the large washer are for the hinge support:


Then it was time to switch the welder over to stainless wire and tri-mix gas and do some work on the exhaust. I started with the front collector and trimmed the 3" mandrel bend to the right angle and then welded it to the V-band:




Then I did the same for the rear collector and started to shape the other section of pipe that will join up with the front collector. Lots of cutting/fitting/shaping:




Then I welded in a flex section to connect to two pipes:




Then I started to mock up the muffler system. The trunk on this Fiero is gone, so the bottom of the trunk is 4 1/4" from the top of the rear cradle mounts. So I used some 4x4's on the rear cradle mount and placed the level across the top to get an idea of the vertical room I had to play with. The pipe coming from the collectors was trimmed back some (needs trimmed a little more) and then I placed the muffler and resonator in place:




Still more work to fit up everything on the muffler system, but it is coming along...

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-09-2014).]

Trinten MSG #309, 02-09-2014 07:37 PM
      Looks awesome man!

And with those flexible pieces, the exhaust shouldn't rattle itself apart like it was before (I can't tell you how many nuts and bolts I replaced, hell, it even wiggled out of one of the donut hangers!)

I was thinking that since the engine was lowered some to clear the intake under the original decklid, when it all goes back together, should we take advantage of the adjustable shocks and raise the car up a bit? I know it'll look a little silly with the bigger gap above the rear tires, but it'll give more ground clearance for things? Or am I overlooking something critical?



fieroguru MSG #310, 02-09-2014 09:44 PM
      Did the bolts holding the headers to the heads ever work loose. I am using the same ARP fasteners and don't want anything to work loose. The V-bands shouldn't work loose.

As for the ground clearance, only the pipe connecting the two headers is below the cradle. If it was in the center of the car, then there might be some concern about hitting it on a high crowned road. With it being as far to the side as it is, I doubt it will ever hit anything. My LS4 exhaust hangs down the same way.


nosrac MSG #311, 02-09-2014 09:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Glad to see you think some of these mods are worth the effort! I think they really clean up the overall look of the engine bay.

Yes, I can supply the modified hinges with or without the reinforcing leg. I do have a few spare sets of hinges, so I just need to decide how much to charge for them and build the instruction sheet.



Put me down for a set.


Trinten MSG #312, 02-09-2014 10:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Did the bolts holding the headers to the heads ever work loose. I am using the same ARP fasteners and don't want anything to work loose. The V-bands shouldn't work loose.

As for the ground clearance, only the pipe connecting the two headers is below the cradle. If it was in the center of the car, then there might be some concern about hitting it on a high crowned road. With it being as far to the side as it is, I doubt it will ever hit anything. My LS4 exhaust hangs down the same way.


Nope! Those header bolts were awesome! Those things were always snug - the guy guaranteed they wouldn't work themselves loose or need to be retorqued, and he was right! Everything that came loose started at the collectors and further on back.



seajai MSG #313, 02-09-2014 10:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Nice! A big thanks to whoever gave you the heads up on those hinges in PM!


You're welcome

I like the stealthy look of the brace guru came up with. I had to brace mine with the engine in the car.



I think I may employ guru's design the next time the engine is out.

[This message has been edited by seajai (edited 02-09-2014).]

Trinten MSG #314, 02-09-2014 10:49 PM
      Thank you!

With the model/design/install of my strut, the decklid actually would not automatically rise on it's own, unfortunately. The strut was too horizontal. Sorta made the electric trunk popper useless. I was planning on boring out one of the rubber stoppers and putting a spring in there, to add a little upwards tension so the popper cooperates with the strut.



fieroguru MSG #315, 02-11-2014 07:49 PM
      Little more progress on the exhaust. The upturn section was welded up and then the resonator was leveled and squared and tacked into place. Then the u bend and muffler were set into position and leveled and squared and tack welded in place too. Now I need to pull it all back out and weld it up solid. I still need to drill the hole for the wide band and fab up some exhaust hangers using the factory exhaust hanger bolt holes in the cradle.





The rear bumper is about 14" behind the rear cradle bolts and the bottom of the level is the approximate bottom of the trunk floor, so there is plenty of room in all directions for this to slide up into place.


This exhaust is about 3-4 feet longer than the one on my LS4 swap and it has an additional resonator. The extra length and the resonator will help quiet it down some without being a restriction.


fieroguru MSG #316, 02-13-2014 07:00 PM
      Its almost time to put the drivetrain back into the engine bay. I finished welding up the exhaust except for the 2 1/2" pipes that go to the tips - I need it in the chassis to center and level the pipes to the body:


Here is the driver side hanger (I need to sand it down and paint the bolt on bracket):


Here is the passenger side. It will have a hole drilled for a strap that will go down and be attached to the 2 1/2" exhaust pipe on the passenger side. I didn't take a good picture of it, but the wideband O2 sensor bung was also welded on:




KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #317, 02-13-2014 07:12 PM
      thanks for keeping fieros interesting. Nice work as usual.

fieroguru MSG #318, 02-15-2014 07:44 PM
      I did a bunch of little things today.

Heat shield for the resonator to help keep the heat off the tail light harness and the bottom of the trunk (already has insulation on it):


Installed the A/C hoses and added 2oz of oil to the compressor:


Installed the oil filter, painted the ECM bracket, installed the brake lines, reattached the A/C bracket to the frame rail, tried to remove the kink the clutch line at the fitting and snapped it off - ordered replacement from Rodney... no pictures.

Used some hot water to remove the bulkhead pass through connector on the 500 harness:



Labeled every wire at the 500 connector and cut the wires from the connector. Then I separated the harness into 4 parts.
Tail light/cruise portion (will go down into the fuel tank area, through the double firewall section and out the passenger wheel well.


Engine portion - these will go to a terminal strip for the connections to the engine harness:


Fuel pump: this will also pass down into the fuel tank area:


Trunk Release:
This will pass through the firewall and smooth panel right under the passenger hinge (I drilled a 1/2" hole for this harness before the smooth panel was painted):

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-15-2014).]

Trinten MSG #319, 02-15-2014 08:21 PM
      That is a lot of stuff man!

Sorry you had something snap on you

I hope you guys are getting some better weather out there than we're seeing this way. Stay warm!


fieroguru MSG #320, 02-16-2014 07:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
I hope you guys are getting some better weather out there than we're seeing this way. Stay warm!


Its been cold (single digit lows most of last week) with a couple of inches of snow here and there, but nothing like what you guys where getting. Today was 39 and the start of our heat wave. The highs this next week are all above 49 degrees until next Sunday when it drops to 41.

Today wasn't as productive as I would have liked, but the rear chassis harness work is done.

Drilled the access hole in the center console as well as in the side of the chassis to access the double firewall section. De-pinned the fuel pump connector and the trunk release connector so I could pass the wires through the holes, then reinstalled the connector pins. Passed the rear harness (including the 2 wires for the water pump) down into the fuel tank area, then installed 2 layers of heat shrink to protect the wires. Snaked a piece of rod through the double firewall section, tapped the harness to it and pulled it through. Once that was done I was able to reconnect the two sections of wired with western union splices, soldered, heat shrinked over the splice, then heat shrink over the entire spliced area. When splicing the harness, I stagger the spliced every 3/4" so there won't be two splices right next to each other that could allow them to run through. It also keeps the harness from being bulky in the spliced area.





I need to steal the fuel pump connector off the parts car's fuel tank so I can replace the melted one. Once that is done, the fuel tank can be installed along with the fuel filter/regulator. Then the engine/transmission will go back in.

With the weather being nice this week and since I will be traveling for work the week of Feb 24, I plan to put in some decent hours in the evenings this coming week. I would like to hear it make noise before I leave for my trip, but there is still a bunch of work that needs to be done.


katatak MSG #321, 02-17-2014 10:49 PM
      Looking great as always Guru! I'd be highly interested in a set of your deck lid hinges. I can send you the hinges off my car if that helps. I now you are a busy guy - I'm in no rush but wanted to get on the list for future.

Thanks for sharing all your hard work.

Pat


Honored to own a page in Trinten's (Guru) Thread!

[This message has been edited by katatak (edited 02-17-2014).]

fieroguru MSG #322, 02-18-2014 08:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by katatak:
I'd be highly interested in a set of your deck lid hinges.


Once I get Trinten's car done, I will make 2-3 sets of the hinges to sell and list them in the mall.


fieroguru MSG #323, 02-18-2014 08:26 PM
      Monday I wanted to get the fuel tank back in. I swapped out the melted connector and installed the new rubber lines from the tank to the filter/regulator. Then slid the tank under the car, pushed it into place, pulled the straps around and then noticed/remembered that I twisted off both t-bolts when I removed the tank... so back out it came and into the house I went to order some replacements from Fiero Store. After that motivational setback, I decided to clean up the garage and call it a night.Only picture from Monday:


Tuesday was much more productive. I stole the battery out of the truck and used it to spin the engine w/o any spark plugs to get the oil circulating again and to check for any oil leaks. After that I installed: ECM mount, ECM, spark plugs, plug wires, and balancer bolt. Then removed the air intake and shifter bracket and got the engine ready to slide back under the car:




Engine/transmission/cradle is back in and the 4 cradle bolts are in place but not tight.


On Wednesday I will tighten the cradle bolts and hook everything up in the engine bay.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-18-2014).]

Doober MSG #324, 02-18-2014 10:49 PM
      I missed the details of the engine, went back & looked... AFR heads are the tits, wish I had the $ for a couple sets (one for the 383 in my truck, one for the 350 in my Malibu). What intake is that?

Trinten MSG #325, 02-18-2014 10:53 PM
      Thanks!

The intake is a (modified) Holley Stealth Ram setup.

I bought the setup from another member here on the board. It was originally modified to fit under a stock Corvette hood (it had decorative fins on top that he had lathed down, and trimmed down some other things). FieroGuru has modified it even further to make sure things would fit.



fieroguru MSG #326, 02-19-2014 07:57 PM
      The top side of the engine has everything connected (except the HTOB - waiting on the replacement line).

Accessory side:


No 500 connector or any wiring for that matter in this corner:


Reworked F23 shifter brackets:


4" cold air intake passing into the wheel well. I lined the edge of the panel with some hose that I cut a slit into. No wiring over here either:


Transmission side of things:


Smooth firewall, relocated wiring harnesses, modified decklid hinges:


I wasn't able to fit the intake completely under the decklid and will have to remove a slight amount of material (about 1/8" to 1/4" deep):




Pic of the engine from the side:


Here is a full engine bay pic of the engine. I still need to clean the bottom side of the decklid and install the struts, but this is very close to the final installation pic (engine side is fully wired too!).


Now I need to move to the interior and start working on all the interior harness terminations... that will take a couple of days.




Trinten MSG #327, 02-19-2014 09:12 PM
      yeah, sorry about my old decklid being so terribly dirty. When I moved last year, I didn't have a shed or anything any longer to keep it in, so I had to set it in the backyard up against the house... I thought the overhang of the roof and gutters would help protect it - not as much as I hoped. It was pretty darn gross, but I didn't know it till CowsPatoot was there and we were loading parts up into his truck. Sorry again.



ericjon262 MSG #328, 02-21-2014 08:35 PM
      damn man, that's clean.



fieroguru MSG #329, 02-23-2014 05:52 PM
      I am just about finished with the inside wiring. Just need to add a connector for the clutch switch and wideband input, wire up the wideband, and solder the terminal on the end of all the grounds. The 500, 203 and OBD2 connector terminations are all complete.

The terminal strip is the engine side of the 500 connector (and the fuel pump and water pump). The relays (top to bottom) are: Water Pump, Fuel Pump, and AC. Bottom right is the added fuse for the hot wire of the fuel pump. Circuit breaker is bottom center. The black vertical "wire" running parallel with the terminal strip is a 1K resistor between a fused 12V switched source and the tach wire. It is needed to boost the tach signal so the fiero tach can read it.


The harness comes in on the lower right of the console area, the 3 wires that immediately exit the loom are the clutch switch, wideband input to ecm and the wideband sensor harness. The harness loops around (I like to keep the harness long for any future mods) and splits with the OBD2 connector wires going to the front, all the 500, AC, Fuel Pump and Water pump wires going up to the terminal strip/relays, all the ground exit the harness to the left, and the harness continues to loop around to the 203 connector. Within the looping harness (thick black heat shrink tube at bottom of loop) bottom is the speedo circuit between the ECM and 203 connector so the Fiero speedo will work.


I will be traveling for work this week, so won't get back to working on this swap till next Saturday. Once I install the tank and connect the battery cables, I can try connecting to the ecm, do the first round of parameter changes in the tune and see if it will make some noise...

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-23-2014).]

Trinten MSG #330, 02-23-2014 09:05 PM
      Your whole post just got cut and pasted into a file, and the images saved.

This way in the future, if anyone asks me what was done or where a relay or fuse is at, I can go "Here, read this!" lol

That looks super clean man. I love the fuse/breaker thing, that's just a nice touch.

Thanks again!


CowsPatoot MSG #331, 02-24-2014 03:30 AM
      Just curious...why did you choose to use a terminal strip rather than a Weatherpack (or similar) connector?

fieroguru MSG #332, 02-24-2014 05:58 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Your whole post just got cut and pasted into a file, and the images saved.


You will also get a spreadsheet showing the terminations as well.


fieroguru MSG #333, 02-24-2014 06:05 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by CowsPatoot:

Just curious...why did you choose to use a terminal strip rather than a Weatherpack (or similar) connector?


Everything at this end of the harness must pass through the single bulkhead hole so there isn't much room. So far I haven't found a connector that is small enough and accepts the range of wire thicknesses that go through the 500 connector. The wires are long enough that a connector could be added once a suitable one is found.


fieroguru MSG #334, 03-01-2014 05:58 PM
      There won't be any updates this weekend or next week.

I got back from my business trip yesterday, but I have to go back next week as well. With the potential ice storm coming in Sunday Night, I will head back to northern Indiana on Sunday afternoon and stay till next Friday. Maybe next Sunday I will have some progress to share.


fieroguru MSG #335, 03-15-2014 06:29 PM
      So after a 3 week hiatus, I am back working on this swap again. Nothing glamorous to show for today... Installed the fuel tank, fuel filter, connected the fuel lines, ran the power and ground cables along the fuel tank and soldered on new ends and made the needed connections. Hooked up one of the heater core lines and then installed the clutch line repair section and hooked up the HTOB.




When I got to the clutch line, things slowed down quite a bit. First I noticed the Thelin HTOB clutch line adapter has an inverted flare on the inside instead of the mating side of a bubble flare.


And sure enough on the end of the stock fiero clutch line that I broke off, you can see where the inverted flare was pushing down in the center of the bubble flare.


I have never seen this mentioned in any F23 thread, so I am starting to think that all (or most) of them have been installed with the wrong flare on the end. I used my flare tool to modify the bubble flare to better seal with the inverted flare surface.

I started with a clutch line repair section from Rodney:


Then I carefully bent the flare end 90 degrees. The Thelin HTOB fitting has the clutch line entering it from the bottom and very low on the cradle, so the clutch line has to go through a bunch of gyrations to attach to it. By adding this simple 90 degree bend, the clutch line just turns 90 from the frame rail and connects to the Thelin adapter:




Here is where I spliced the repair line into the stock line. I tried to keep it out of the way of the cradle bolt.


On Sunday I plan to charge up the battery and connect electrical power to the car. Then see if I can get my laptop to connect with the ecm and download the current program to HP tuners and spend a hour or two making a base file with all the changes. Once that is done I will do some more electrical checkouts and might get to the point of turning the key to see if it will start. The coolant system connections and the exhaust tips still have to be finished, so if it starts I will only run it a few seconds.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-15-2014).]

Trinten MSG #336, 03-15-2014 06:46 PM
      Thanks for the update!

So the fitting that didn't have the right flare - is there an 'off the shelf' part that I should list in the F23 tutorial? Or is modifying it with tools the only solution?

Here's to hoping it kicks over for you without any issues!!


fieroguru MSG #337, 03-15-2014 07:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

So the fitting that didn't have the right flare - is there an 'off the shelf' part that I should list in the F23 tutorial? Or is modifying it with tools the only solution?



I am likely going to have some fittings made that will fit the HTOB bleeder assy and accept the stock fiero hard line. That will make it plug & play going forward for the F23 and F40 swaps.


cyrus88 MSG #338, 03-15-2014 07:54 PM
      When I swapped my Fiero Getrag for one with HTOB, I used Mcleod 139204-xx and cut off the fiero clutch flexline. Then I used 4-AN tube adapater and 4-AN union to attach it to the fiero hardline.

EDITED to Add: The part number I've stated above does not fit! I had purchased the Mcleod line some years ago and I had forgotten that I had to cut off the quick disconnect fitting and used the fitting from a Pontiac Sunfire instead. The Mcleod fitting is longer and will not lock in place.

[This message has been edited by cyrus88 (edited 05-07-2014).]

fieroguru MSG #339, 03-16-2014 06:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by cyrus88:

When I swapped my Fiero Getrag for one with HTOB, I used Mcleod 139204-xx and cut off the fiero clutch flexline. Then I used 4-AN tube adapter and 4-AN union to attach it to the fiero hardline.


Over the years there have been many methods used to connect the Fiero hard line to a HTOB, but they all have all either involved some type of modification to the Fiero hard line, or had the wrong flare... What I am proposing is a single piece that threads to the stock hard line with the proper flare fitting and have the right quick disconnect on the other end to just plug into the F23 or F40... no modification and a simple bolt in installation.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-16-2014).]

fieroguru MSG #340, 03-16-2014 06:59 PM
      Today wasn't as productive as I would have liked, but I did get the battery charged up, soldered on some more cable ends and started to bleed the brakes. Then I got pulled away on other family stuff and finishing up other customer orders.

The bottom brass lug are all the grounds in the chassis harness. As I was reworking the chassis side of the 500 harness, there was a large splice section in this area. I removed the splice section and ran all the grounds to this single lug. The lug was heated, filled with solder, the wire group pushed into the lug and brought up to temp to ensure the solder flowed out to all the wires. Then covered in heat shrink. The top larger lug is every engine sensor & ECM ground. It received the same treatment.


I didn't take a before pic, but lets just say the positive battery cable was showing wires and not well attached using the cable clamp on this connector. So I cut the frayed end back to clean copper and prepped it for another lug. Everyone of these lugs I install gets the same treatment, then bolted the lug to the clamp bolt.


I still need to do a little work on the negative side, but its not as bad as the positive side was.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-16-2014).]

cyrus88 MSG #341, 03-16-2014 07:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Over the years there have been many methods used to connect the Fiero hard line to a HTOB, but they all have all either involved some type of modification to the Fiero hard line, or had the wrong flare... What I am proposing is a single piece that threads to the stock hard line with the proper flare fitting and have the right quick disconnect on the other end to just plug into the F23 or F40... no modification and a simple bolt in installation.



That's a good aim, but I wanted to change the steel braided line because it wasn't looking so good after 20+ years.


Trinten MSG #342, 03-16-2014 08:07 PM
      I take full responsibility for the horrible job with putting those quick-disconnect terminals on for the battery. It's a stellar example of why I don't usually do work myself. lol

Thank you very much for the update!


fieroguru MSG #343, 03-19-2014 06:09 PM
      On Monday I powered up the ecm and was able to copy the stock calibration into HP tuners. Then spent the next couple evenings working on a base tune to get the engine started. Changes were:

Turn off VATS, EGR, AIR, and Torque Management
Edit all injector tables for the Bosch 36# injectors.
Convert the LS7 MAF table from my car (E67) to the LS1 resolution and load it up.
Reduce the VE table by 15% in the idle corner of the table. Also reduced the entire Cranking VE by 15% as well.
Did a crude tweak to the IAT table (it was reading 80 degrees when it was 55-60 degrees - IAT sensor was swapped as it is part of the LS7 MAF)

With those tweaks I was able to do this:


Now that I know it will run, I can finish all the odds and ends to get it to the point of idling in the driveway.

I had to give it a little throttle to get it to start and it won't idle on its own yet, so the tune as a long way to go but it... RUNS!


Trinten MSG #344, 03-19-2014 08:47 PM
      Awesome!! This really made my day, thank you so much!

I also see I need to buy a replacement LED.


Chug MSG #345, 03-20-2014 12:46 PM
      Hope to see it in May at the NCFC meet!!!

Doober MSG #346, 03-21-2014 06:28 PM
      That sounds beastly

fieroguru MSG #347, 03-22-2014 04:13 PM
      Working on a bunch of odds and ends...

Installed the rear carpet, side interior panels and the seats:


Installed the water pump and connected the AN fittings:


Made this coolant pipe that goes between the passenger side coolant tube and the water pump. It has a nipple for the heater hose to dump into the line before the water pump:


Source the coolant hoses for the heater core and the driver side. Driver side hose:






Heater core hose:





Then tacked together the rest of the exhaust:



Filled the engine and burped the coolant system with 50/50 antifreeze mix.

Sunday I will finish weld the exhaust, put the rear suspension back together and try to get the car sitting on its wheels again.


Trinten MSG #348, 03-22-2014 04:35 PM
      Awesome! That coolant setup looks so much nicer and cleaner than the jammed together pipes I had in there before!

I think those tips look pretty good, it's definitely a different look. Thank you for the update!


fieroguru MSG #349, 03-23-2014 05:05 PM
      The exhaust has been fully welded and reinstalled:


Next, I got started on the rear suspension. The coilovers didn't have upper spring locators and was still using the old upper spring perch for the studs, so I fixed both of those. This is what came out:


The bushing plate doesn't have studs, so I welded some stainless steel metric bolts to it for studs. Then took some 4" exhaust pipe, cut a slit into it so I could use a hose clamp and reduce the diameter to be within 1/8" of the spring OD. Then I cut the excess off, welded the seam closed, and welded the tube to the strut bushing plate:




The lower a-arms had poly bushings in them already, so I removed the sleeves and coated everything with anti-seize:



The rear suspension is now back together and the brake calipers are installed. I ordered another camber bolt for the rear struts and will align the rear before I put wheels on it, but that will be Tuesday or Wednesday at the earliest. I still need to install the rear sway bar and the parking brake cables and bleed the brakes.




Since I changed the firing order with the ECM, I want to make sure every cylinder is firing when it should. I added this large (more visible) white line on the outer edge of the balancer inline with the TDC mark on the backside. I can use my timing light on each spark plug wire and note where the white mark is when it flashes.
Cylinders 1 & 6 should be about 3 o'clock
Cylinders 8 & 5 should be about 6 o'clock
Cylinders 4 & 7 should be about 9 o'clock
Cylinders 3 & 2 should be about 12 o'clock


Here is the engine bay with the struts in place:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-23-2014).]

Trinten MSG #350, 03-23-2014 05:15 PM
      Wow... that all looks amazing. Thank you for improving my coil over setup!!

ericjon262 MSG #351, 04-06-2014 05:23 PM
      any updates?



nosrac MSG #352, 04-06-2014 08:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Wow... that all looks amazing. Thank you for improving my coil over setup!!


X2, I think he improved on everything he touched...

That super clean look is just too much for me to bear....Gur U R killin me...LOL


fieroguru MSG #353, 04-06-2014 09:15 PM
      I have been updating Vince through PM's as I am working through some issues.

I have put about 20 miles on the car and have done 3 rounds of logging/adjusting in the lower levels of the MAF and VE tables to dial them in pretty decent. I haven't started the WOT tuning yet. The car has a lot more low end torque than my LS4 swap and the throttle response is a huge improvement from when it was carbed.

Been working on several small issues...leaky v-band, bad brand new idler pulley, passenger side rear caliper sprung a leak at the parking brake lever, bad clutch master cylinder.

The three more significant issues are:
1: Transmission (filled with syncromesh) gear whine in the upper 3 gears that wans't present before. It originally had a resonant vibration at highway speeds in 5th and during the tear down I found that the transmission was missing 1 dowel pin so the transmission wasn't properly centered. It now has 2 dowel pins, and the resonance is gone, but now there is gear whine. The transmission was running Royal Purple ATF, so I am planning to swap that in and see if that helps the whine.

2: The ClutchNet Clutch is super, super light pedal pressure to release. I am concerned about its ability to hold the power. It had a ClutchNet Clutch before and this is supposed to be the exact same clutch. I remember it being lighter than the one in the LS4/F40, but this is really light. I won't know how it does till I do some WOT runs.

3. There is a strange noise from the top side of the engine and I am looking at several items for potential causes.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-06-2014).]

Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #354, 04-09-2014 06:58 PM
      I noticed you said you tied the engine sensors to that ground lug. I assume you meant basic grounds and not the actual sensor grounds, correct?

fieroguru MSG #355, 04-10-2014 12:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:

I noticed you said you tied the engine sensors to that ground lug. I assume you meant basic grounds and not the actual sensor grounds, correct?


The ground leads for the actual sensors terminate at the ECM. For instance the TPS sensor has all 3 wires going from the ECM to the TPS.


fieroguru MSG #356, 04-12-2014 03:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The three more significant issues are:

3. There is a strange noise from the top side of the engine and I am looking at several items for potential causes.


Here is a video where you can better hear the strange noise I was referring to and the cause (the modified HSR plenum is vibrating):


KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #357, 04-12-2014 08:44 PM
      Any idea how to fix it? I guess now you know why they have to ridges in it from the factory

Swap looks amazing.


sleevePAPA MSG #358, 04-12-2014 10:57 PM
      weld up some X bracing on the underside? Could use some 1/4" round stock and I think that may keep the deflection to a minimum.

Trinten MSG #359, 04-12-2014 11:34 PM
      FieroGuru gave me a suggestion in PM, I'm going to explore that, and I was thinking maybe there's some way to fabricate a metal strap that can strap down over the top and provide pressure... it would take away from the super clean look, but it would be a functional solution.

I was also thinking that maybe I can put soft rubber bumpers on the underside of the decklid, so when it's closed it would give some light downward pressure on the intake that wouldn't be a threat to damage either the decklid or the intake.

All else fails, FieroGuru suggested I look for an unmodified HSR upper intake. The lower part of the intake has been chopped down as well (if I remember correctly), so I'd need to keep that to keep it all under the Fiero decklid.

Worst case scenario.... I get some measurements of a F.I.R.S.T. intake, and see if it'll fit and see about getting that put in there.




ericjon262 MSG #360, 04-13-2014 12:53 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

FieroGuru gave me a suggestion in PM, I'm going to explore that, and I was thinking maybe there's some way to fabricate a metal strap that can strap down over the top and provide pressure... it would take away from the super clean look, but it would be a functional solution.

I was also thinking that maybe I can put soft rubber bumpers on the underside of the decklid, so when it's closed it would give some light downward pressure on the intake that wouldn't be a threat to damage either the decklid or the intake.

All else fails, FieroGuru suggested I look for an unmodified HSR upper intake. The lower part of the intake has been chopped down as well (if I remember correctly), so I'd need to keep that to keep it all under the Fiero decklid.

Worst case scenario.... I get some measurements of a F.I.R.S.T. intake, and see if it'll fit and see about getting that put in there.



could always have a fabricator make a sheet metal plenum.


fieroguru MSG #361, 04-13-2014 10:14 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:

Any idea how to fix it? I guess now you know why they have to ridges in it from the factory

Swap looks amazing.


Yeah, I guess the stock reinforcing ribs did have a purpose. When gushotrod smoothed the top, he probably didn't think about it possibly vibrating.

Adding spray on truck bead liner to the underside of the plenum would probably eliminate or reduce the vibration as it is pretty tough and normally 3/16 to 1/4" thick. Probably the least expensive option.

Next option purchase another HSR upper plenum with the ribs and install it stock. This will require a slightly larger notch in the decklid support, but other than that it is a bolt on solution that will work with all the other custom parts made for this swap. The stock upper/lower intake is $366.95 from Summit or Jegs:


There is a knockoff version that sells for $285 on ebay that has an upper plenum fabricated from 1/4" thick aluminum:




Or you could look for other custom HSR upper plenums. Here is one in carbon fiber ($1000 and the throttle bracket I made might not work):

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-13-2014).]

joshua riedl MSG #362, 04-13-2014 10:32 AM
      What about drilling and tapping an aluminum rod and bolting it in centered in the upper intake?

Jefrysuko MSG #363, 04-14-2014 11:46 AM
      You're just hitting the resonate frequency of the top portion of the plenum at idle. Just do something to change it's mass and you'll move it to a different frequency which will excite at a different rpm.

Either duct tape Paul's hand to the plenum or find something else to stick on it like a large Fiero Emblem or something of the like. If Paul was more into marketing he'd already have "Fieroguru Performance L.L.C." lazer cut out of aluminum, polished and stuck to the intake by now!


Trinten MSG #364, 04-14-2014 11:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Jefrysuko:

...
If Paul was more into marketing he'd already have "Fieroguru Performance L.L.C." lazer cut out of aluminum, polished and stuck to the intake by now!


Going to see if FieroGuru will give me permission to do something like that and put it on my intake. This would be awesome, and give him much-deserved credit.


fieroguru MSG #365, 04-20-2014 06:03 PM
      Back from yet another business trip and back working on the car. Only thing good about traveling is spending the evenings thinking about Fiero stuff.

The drivetrain is back out for clutch issues.




ClutchNet was supposed to ship the exact same clutch/pressure plate as the car had before, but after nearly 2 months of waiting for them, the pressure plate ended up being different. Shame on me for not taking the time to properly compare the two pressure plates. The old one was in the attic and when the new one was red and rivet style I assumed it was the same. They are different, have different clamp loads, and even place the pressure plate fingers in a different spot:




The other error on my part was I didn't bleed the HTOB prior to taking my range of motion measurements, so when the new pressure plate arrived and I checked its finger position, the range of motion looked right with slightly less room for wear vs. release. But it wasn't right and eventually over extended after about 40 miles and 8 hrs of running. FTE is the OEM supplier for the F23 HTOB and I scored a NOS unit on eBay. This one doesn't have any fluid and I will make sure my measurements are correct this time...

Having the engine out it gives me easy access to knock out a few other items.

The bad idler pulley was likely caused by pressing some 3/8" lock washers into the center of the bearing to help center it (the LS4 idler pulley is 12mm ID and I am using a 3/8" bolt for it - done this many times before). These were too much of a press fit and likely enlarged the inner race enough to cause an issue. So before I installed the new idler, I took a stack of 4 lock washers and tuned down the OD so they could easily slide into the new idler pulley. Here is a picture of the old one with the lock washers still pressed in place:


I found another source of light metal rattle (was thinking it was the A/C clutch). Instead it was the heat shield I had added between the alternator and the header primary to keep as much exhaust heat off the alternator as possible. There is about 1/4" between the two pieces and I bent the heat shield to be better centered between the two.


For the intake plenum vibration, I adapted Joshua's suggestion but kept it completely invisible. Once the plenum was off, I removed the brass PCV fitting from the bottom center and bored it to accept a 1/2" aluminum tube:


Pressed in an aluminum tube, drilled 4 air holes in it for the PCV, cut it to precise length and added a plastic cap to the top:


Threaded it back into place and this tube now pushes up the center of the plenum by .008" and should keep it from vibrating.


The other thing I fixed today was upper plenum bolts. The two on the PS had deeper holes in the plenum and were recessed about .14" further than the other side. So I turned up some spacers to fit under the bolt heads to take up the excess space:



If you look closely at the picture of the inside of the plenum, you will see some oil residue from the PCV system. I have ordered a catch can to install down by the transmission to keep as much oil as possible out of the intake.

While I have everything out, I will also mod the cradle slightly to improve room around the rear V-band. I have installed and removed it a couple of times in the car, but more room would make it much easier to do.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-20-2014).]

KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #366, 04-28-2014 03:32 PM
      anything new on this?

What gearing is on this F23? Is it the 3.94 FD?



fieroguru MSG #367, 04-28-2014 05:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:

anything new on this?

What gearing is on this F23? Is it the 3.94 FD?


Waiting on ClutchNet to send a replacement pressure plate. They sent the wrong one (not high enough clamp load) the first time.

It has the 3.94 FD.


Trinten MSG #368, 04-28-2014 10:23 PM
      Yeah, Clutchnet said they would replace the pressure plate for free - didn't even need to send back the old one, however since that talk, it has been a communication blackout. I've called them every business day at an appropriate time and left messages to no avail.

At this point I'm going to file a BBB and then just get the SPEC that FieroGuru recommended to me. If Clutchnet does eventually send me the right pressure plate, then I'll have my backup handy.

Since they said not to bother to send back the wrong pressure plate (which is probably at, or only slightly above, stock -- Guru would need to chime in there), I guess I can put it up in the market here, but not sure how well it'd work with another clutch.


sleevePAPA MSG #369, 04-28-2014 11:02 PM
      Clutchnet (aka EZ clutch) has been doing this crap for years. When they send out the right parts, they seem to hold up well, but it's a 50/50 chance. Their customer service has always been terrible too.


http://www.v6z24.com/jbodyf...light,clutchnet.html


http://www.v6z24.com/jbodyf...light,clutchnet.html


Trinten MSG #370, 04-28-2014 11:12 PM
      Yeah, I really *really* liked my first clutch/pp from them. The salesperson I spoke to when I first did business with them was --- not great. I emailed them, and Oleg emailed me back within an hour apologizing and saying he'd make it right. I called back, he took my order, showed up promptly and was exactly what it should have been.

But this time... just not thrilled with the customer service. Such a shame, too. I thought they had a great product. Anyhow, I'm going to go with SPEC this time around and see how it holds up!

I'll be ordering the SC883F, clamping pressure is good for up to 515 pounds of torque, which will do great for the time being. I am going to call and see if I can get different clutch material than the organic, maybe they have an equivalent to the multi-puck ceramic setup I had, or a carbon/ceramic. People say they don't engage well, but (excluding first gear), I found engagement to be pretty smooth.

I'd go with kevlar, but I'm worried about this two-part scenario: I glaze it from stop-and-go, and when I try to 'burn the glaze off' with hard use, I overheat the thing and ruin it. lol That would be my luck.


fieroguru MSG #371, 04-29-2014 06:36 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
Since they said not to bother to send back the wrong pressure plate (which is probably at, or only slightly above, stock -- Guru would need to chime in there), I guess I can put it up in the market here, but not sure how well it'd work with another clutch.


If they don't make this issue right, you already have paid for this pressure plate and are free to do what you want with it. However, from the feel of the clutch pedal, I doubt this pressure plate was anything but a stock one painted Red.

 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
I'll be ordering the SC883F, clamping pressure is good for up to 515 pounds of torque, which will do great for the time being. I am going to call and see if I can get different clutch material than the organic, maybe they have an equivalent to the multi-puck ceramic setup I had, or a carbon/ceramic. People say they don't engage well, but (excluding first gear), I found engagement to be pretty smooth.


The Spec Stage 3+ material is very similar to the 6 puck ClutchNet, but it is a full face clutch to it engages smoother. It isn't organic, but is a carbon semi-metallic material.

 
quote
from Spec website
The flagship stage for a high powered street or race car that requires a manageable and friendly engagement, the stage 3+ features a carbon semi-metallic full faced material that offers unparalleled life, friction co-efficient and drivability characteristics in one single package. The hub is double sprung with spring cover relieves for flexibility and heat treated components for strength and durability. Great for street, drag, drift, autocross, road racing, pulling, rallye and drift.

High clamp pressure plate
Carbon semi-metallic friction material
High torque sprung hub and disc assembly
Bearing and tool kit


Trinten MSG #372, 04-29-2014 10:02 AM
      Oh good!

I must have read the description from a different part number where I thought it said organic! Well, that simplifies things!


Chug MSG #373, 05-09-2014 09:12 AM
      Trinten,

I know when Drew-py was looking to replace his clutch he replaced a stock style Spec with a McLloud, That thing wasn't good for the 247hp stock 3800sc2. He went back with a Custom Spec with a Getrag inner and a 3800 Camaro clutch. With that he is now putting down about 400/400 and hasn't told me about any issues. Drew was very happy with how easy Spec was when it came to a custom order/build. I think you'll be very happy with what you get. If you are not then it would be your own fault for not ordering what you needed.


Trinten MSG #374, 05-09-2014 12:15 PM
      Thanks Chug!

My 'off the shelf' Spec arrived at FieroGuru's place on Wednesday. With the clamping pressure this has, I shouldn't have any issues with it. But it's good to know that they were so accommodating with getting a customer application built. I'll have to keep that in mind for the future.


fieroguru MSG #375, 05-10-2014 09:05 PM
      Back from my most recent trip for work and the new spec clutch was waiting for me.



Comparison between the two:


Once the new clutch/pressure plate were bolted to the flywheel and measured the height of the clutch fingers: 2.112"

Then I measured the range of motion of the HTOB w/o any spacer.
2.776" Retracted
1.899" Extended

So if I just installed this like it is, there would only be .213" for release and .664" for wear... no chance this will work w/o a spacer. Now this combo is unique in that the flywheel is about .200" further from the transmission than a stock fiero due to the Archie flywheel and adapter plate.

This car did come with a HTOB spacer that is .250" thick. So using it with this clutch the release will be .463" and .414" for wear. Even with the spacer, there is a very good chance the HTOB will over extend. The HTOB spacer needed to be thicker, so I turned a very larger washer down for a tight press fit inside the HTOB spacer.




With the washer inside, the HTOB is now .437" thick. So now there is:
.650" for release
.227" for wear

And this will work just fine...

Then it was time to put everything back together and get it ready to go back under the car.





Trinten MSG #376, 05-11-2014 12:37 AM
      Looking awesome!!

That pic of the clutches also showed me something else that changed with Clutchnet, my original clutch from them, the springs were fully enclosed - not the best for knowing when a spring broke, but would definitely keep broken spring parts from jumping out and tearing/jamming things up (it was one of the things I liked... now if it's a bad idea, that's my ignorance showing).

But this new clutch from them, not enclosed. So, another mark against them in my book, as it's another difference from "Give me the same thing I ordered before."

Either way, I'm super glad the new parts showed up and were correct, and that FieroGuru was able to cook up a fix to make sure the spacing was right!! Thank you again!


fieroguru MSG #377, 05-11-2014 07:13 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Looking awesome!!

That pic of the clutches also showed me something else that changed with Clutchnet, my original clutch from them, the springs were fully enclosed - not the best for knowing when a spring broke, but would definitely keep broken spring parts from jumping out and tearing/jamming things up (it was one of the things I liked... now if it's a bad idea, that's my ignorance showing).

But this new clutch from them, not enclosed. So, another mark against them in my book, as it's another difference from "Give me the same thing I ordered before."


That has always just been a sales gimmick, as they only enclose one side of the springs - only the front side that is visible when the clutch is installed. The new disk does have the front side enclosed, but as you can see the back side is just like the Spec setup. Even comparing the thickness of the metal in the spring opening, they are the same thickness. Here is a front side pic:


motoracer838 (jmartin@musicunveiled.com) MSG #378, 05-11-2014 09:24 AM
      Lookin' good, but I'm confused, when did Spec become the "good" clutch company???
Joe


fieroguru MSG #379, 05-11-2014 12:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by motoracer838:
when did Spec become the "good" clutch company???
Joe


The Spec Stage 3+ is probably the best clutch on the market for 300-450 whp Fieros. Its holds the power and has very good drivabilty. If you don't want to worry about the springs, go with the Stage 4+ (same clutch, just with a solid hub). The Stage 3+ was the clutch I originally recommended for this swap, but Vince wanted to stay with ClutchNet.

I have used Spec clutches in every swap going on 10 years and have never had one fail. I have also waited in Spec's lobby while they built me a new clutch (transmission issue) while I was on the Hot Rod Power Tour, so I am Spec supporter. I have used their Stage 2+, Stage 3, Stage 3+ and Stage 4+ clutches in cars pushing up to 400 whp.

However, Spec as a company isn't nearly as stellar at their Stage 3+ clutch. Their R&D does leave a lot to be desired.

Very early on Spec had the issue with the splined hubs being backwards. I think they tried to sell the HTOB clutches (that don't have a throwout bearing support sleeve) to the Fiero market w/o ever testing fitting on in house. There was interference and it took years for all those bad clutches to be removed from service.

Then they had the spring popping out issue. This was mostly isolated to the Spec Stage 3 clutch and I think that clutch's on/off nature with excessive shuttering just overloaded the retaining tabs for the springs. The vast majority of the spring issues have stopped in the recent years, so they either fixed it or most people are buying the Stage 3+. The Spec Stage 3 clutch is just a bad clutch and I would never recommend it.

The only relatively recent Spec clutch failures were with the F40's and those don't use the same disk as the Fiero version, I don't know the details about their failures (one behind a SBC and one behind a 3800SC) so those might be completely unrelated to the Fiero application.


fieroguru MSG #380, 05-12-2014 05:19 PM
      Vince's SBC swap is back running again!

The vibrating of the intake is much less, but it still changes sounds when I put my hand on it... eventually it will need some kind of sound deadener or top plate. It doesn't sound abnormal, but since I know its there it still annoys me.

The A/C clutch was still vibrating, so I removed it from the compressor the time being (its nice being able to swap it out with everything installed!). I will buy a new one and I hope it doesn't vibrate as much. The good news is that once this was removed, the rest of the engine/exhaust wasn't making any other annoying or otherwise distracting noises! The V-bands are now leak free too and while the engine was out, I checked the header flange gaskets for black soot and they appear to be leak free as well.

The new clutch definitely has a higher clamp pressure plate (I noticed it just tightening the pressure plate bolts), but still has smooth engagement.

While I had it out for its first test drive up around the subdivision, I figured it was a good time to take an outdoors video of the exhaust. So you have something to compare it to, I parked it along side the LS4 car and started it up and revved it as well. While Vince's car and the LS4 car share the same muffler, Vince's has a Vibrant performance resonator and resonator tips which help cut down on the throatiness that the LS4 car has.

Here is the video/sound clip of both cars:


I am pretty sure that while reinstalling the axles, I figured out the source of the gear whine that gets worse with vehicle speed and the excessive backlash in the drivetrain as you transition between on/off throttle. This car has a quaife limited slip, so there are no spider gears and the tripods snap tightly into the limited slip unit. When I was installing the DS axle, it only went in about 1/2 way and got in a bind, when I tried to pull it back out it moved slightly and made a heavy metal thunk... That caused me to look into the noise further and found this:


So it would appear the differential bearings are toast... I am going to drive the car a little this week to fine tune some other aspects of the car, but will pull everything back out this coming weekend and drop the transmission off at the rebuilder on Monday so they can open it up and see what it going on inside it.


Trinten MSG #381, 05-12-2014 10:27 PM
      Awesome! I love the way it sounds!

Also, for anyone that is okay with dropping heavy coin for a seriously built up F23 -- I found this place:
http://www.fmsrperformance....8_145&product_id=119 (something I'm keeping bookmarked for the future)

I don't want this to tie up FieroGuru's garage any longer - this project has taken way longer than he anticipated, and I feel bad about it. He's been extremely patient and professional, and upfront about stuff he finds and thinks should be fixed. I seriously can't thank him enough.

Keeping my fingers crossed that it just needs those bearings, given how low the mileage is on it. Hopefully they'll be on the level with him about what they find.

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 05-12-2014).]

Jims88 (stumpster60@gmail.com) MSG #382, 05-15-2014 10:38 PM
      Sounds Great Trinten
Looks like it will be a lot of fun, driving that BEAST!

Thanks for posting the link; I noticed they do 4T65E-HD transmission builds too.

http://www.fmsrperformance....8_145&product_id=121


Trinten MSG #383, 05-15-2014 11:17 PM
      Yes! I saw that, too. When I was researching some of their options on the automatic transmissions, I found a post from DarthFiero talking about how he was working with another place to build up automatics ( http://tripleedgeperformanc...rformance_4T65E.html ).

So for folks that don't mind dropping coin, definitely some options between those two builders. I just hope my transmission holds out for a few years! I want to get some other stuff done on it first!



Jims88 (stumpster60@gmail.com) MSG #384, 05-16-2014 08:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

I just hope my transmission holds out for a few years! I want to get some other stuff done on it first!


I bet it will after fieroguru is done with it.
His dedication to customer satisfaction is commendable.

[This message has been edited by Jims88 (edited 05-16-2014).]

Trinten MSG #385, 05-23-2014 09:56 AM
      Okay! So some good news! The differential bearing was not bad, it just needed to be shimmed. They said everything else in the transmission is perfectly fine as well!

My understanding is that once Guru has it back in the car, he's going to start putting some more miles on it for tuning and making sure there are no leaks/issues, and then get it to the dyno for some WOT tuning.

Drawback for me is that I can't put in any vacation requests for June at this point, so when it's finished, I either need to push/rush to pick it up on my 'weekend', or slate it for the beginning of July - which I might do. We have off the fourth of July already, so I might put in to get that first week of July off (if that works for Guru). Gives me time for a leisurely trip each way, and some time to take Guru and his family out for a nice dinner as part of my thank you, as well as pick his brain with my patented Ignorant Questions (tm)!



fieroguru MSG #386, 05-24-2014 03:36 PM
      Back from yet another business trip... at least this one was while the transmission was at the shop. My wife picked up the transmission for me on Friday and today I cleaned it, removed the excess case sealant and then painted it again. My goal is to have the car running again by Tuesday.

Transmission soaking up some sunlight as the paint dries:



fieroguru MSG #387, 05-27-2014 07:17 PM
      Everything is back together again and the car is back to running!

I am hoping the weather will be nice on Wednesday so I can drive the car and do some shake down runs with it.


Trinten MSG #388, 05-27-2014 10:07 PM
      Wooo!

Plus for those who may be interested, I've been informed the engine kicked right over, and there is no more A/C rattling, which is awesome.



carbon MSG #389, 05-28-2014 01:40 PM
      That is the one thing I've noticed with the F23 swaps that included the case swaps and LSD installs... not once has anyone ever mentioned verifying that the shims were correct size with the mismatched parts. Glad you got it taken care of.

I actually bought the full kit of F23 tools, including the shim selection kit, off of ebay for $50 for when I dig deeper into doing a 3.63 final swap.

This assumes I ever get the thing back on the road of course...


fieroguru MSG #390, 05-29-2014 07:01 PM
      Did a few shakedown drives this evening. No more excessive driveline slop with on/off throttle transitions and the excessive gear whine is gone too! The clutch engagement is silky smooth as well!

The wideband is hooked up and being logged through HP Tuners, so now I get to focus more on the driving and tuning side of things. I need to make a mount so I can get some in car videos of some drives... I have a magnet mount, but with the interior back in, there aren't any metal surfaces to stick it to.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-29-2014).]

nosrac MSG #391, 05-29-2014 10:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I need to make a mount so I can get some in car videos of some drives... I have a magnet mount, but with the interior back in, there aren't any metal surfaces to stick it to.



2 words Vel Crow...LOL


fieroguru MSG #392, 05-31-2014 07:39 PM
      I put about 70 miles on the car today taking it for multiple trips through the country loop (about 15 miles). A couple of trips I was logging MAF and the others I was logging SD. The MAF tune is about done (except WOT), but the SD side still needs more work.

I used some left over double sided sticky tape to attach some 16ga to the rear window, then I could use my magnetic base for my camera. I took a couple of videos of portions of my travels, but never went over 20% throttle in these videos:





Trinten MSG #393, 05-31-2014 09:33 PM
      That's some great video!

I noticed that my oil pressure sensor/gauge is now more accurate/sensitive. Before, I would start it up and the needle would (fairly quickly) creep up to about 3/4 of the way to the max, then pretty much sit there the entire time with very little variation. Once after driving on the highway for about 2 hours I came to a stop and was a little freaked out when the needle dropped to the half-way mark. As soon as I stopped I jumped out and checked the oil level, absolutely sure that for it to have pressure that low that I had to have lost a bunch of oil - but I hadn't, thankfully. (Even checked it the next day when the engine was cold, just to make sure! Yes, a little paranoid).

Could also be more sensitive thanks to FieroGuru opening up the oil return port thingie that the filter relocation setup needs to use.

Sounds great and looks like it's moving without any issues! The wideband MAF was staying in a pretty good range, too! Kudos to your tuning!!

(Edited: I fixed 'not' to 'now' -- talk about a typo that dramatically changes the meaning of the post! Sorry I didn't catch it sooner)

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 06-08-2014).]

fieroguru MSG #394, 06-08-2014 04:33 PM
      I have put somewhere between 250 and 300 miles on the car since the swap and things are looking good and the swap is leak free. The SD and MAF tunes are complete for normal driving and the MAF is roughed in with 3 WOT runs runs to 6500 rpm (I will tweak it a little more on the dyno). I took it into town for some heavy stop/go driving and stayed right around 190 with the fan cycling on/off as needed.

I don't drive the car in the rain, so sometime this week (weather permitting) I will accomplish the following:

Take the car on an interstate run from Lexington to Louisville (about 65 miles each way + 25 miles each way to the interstate) at a steady 70 mph. The car will be driven home, so I want to test that condition before handing over the car, as well as check for interstate fuel economy.

Put the car on the dyno to dial in the WOT tune and play with the timing & A/F ratio for peak power.

The other things left to do...
Put the rest of the center console back together.
Install the rear wheel well liners.
Change out the brake hoses for braided stainless ones.
Install the rear sway bar.
Charge the A/C.
Continue to drive the car.


Trinten MSG #395, 06-08-2014 10:47 PM
      In the home stretch!
I'm really curious to see what the dyno differences will be with the EFI.


fieroguru MSG #396, 06-15-2014 01:56 PM
      Took the car on a 230 mile joy ride today to check the MPG on the interstate. I filled up right off the interstate in Lexington, then jumped on I64 and drove past the Indiana State line (other side of Louisville) and came back (160 miles total). Stopped at the same gas station, used the same pump and filled it back up. 21.4 mpg on the interstate running between 68 and 80, but the average for the vast majority of the run was 70-75.

All that's left to do is:
Dyno tune - tried to go last week, but owner had a stint put in. Should be able to get it done this week.
Charge the A/C
Install the braided stainless brake hoses

Here are a few more pics I took the other day once I installed the vent brackets and decklid support:



[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 06-15-2014).]

Trinten MSG #397, 06-15-2014 10:06 PM
      It's beautiful!!

And I definitely won't complain about 21 MPG, either!

I might have to buy that nice car cover sooner than later, try to help keep stuff from calling through the vents and making the engine bay look all gross.


Jefrysuko MSG #398, 07-06-2014 05:52 PM
      Updates?

fieroguru MSG #399, 07-06-2014 09:28 PM
      Vince and Greg (CowsPatoot) came up on the 3rd and we hung out late that night. On the 4th they came over the to house and took the car for multiple spins through the country running the car through its paces. Vince even took a spin in the LS4/F40 Fiero and they headed home that afternoon.

The power band of the car is very similar to mine and should make peak HP well above 6K rpm. I dyno'd the car and with the 1.6 rockers it floated the valves at 5800 rpm and only put down 354 whp @ 5800 rpm. After the dyno, the valve springs were changed and it now pulls strong to 6500 rpm. I ran out of time to get it on the dyno a 2nd time to see how much more power it makes above 5800 rpm.

It was a fun and challenging project.


Trinten MSG #400, 07-06-2014 10:17 PM
      Yup, I have it back now, very happy with everything FieroGuru did. Looking forward to when the weather out here gets closer to what it was when I had my dyno done with the carb, so I can see the differences with less variables.

The car still has a horrible driver, though.

The new throttle is taking me some time to get used to. I've had a few interesting moments learning it, including more than a few unintentional tire barks, and some jerking.

But it's happily sitting in my driveway again!

FieroGuru also spent a lot of time explaining brake stuff to me, showing me side-by-side comparisons (he has a lot of parts, and an immaculately organized garage). So it was a great learning experience, too!

In the future if there's ever other big stuff I want to get done that's up his alley, I'm definitely going to give him a call. He also gave me 4.6 gigs of stuff ( 1,200 +/- pictures, wiring diagrams and my HP Tuners file), as well as been extremely gracious with answering my questions since I've picked the car up.


FieroMaster88 (fast88fiero@yahoo.com) MSG #401, 07-06-2014 11:24 PM
      Awesome! Looks super clean. I would love to have him redo my engine swap in my 88.



sleevePAPA MSG #402, 07-07-2014 06:04 AM
      I'd like to see some videos of it rippin' some sh!t up

ericjon262 MSG #403, 07-07-2014 04:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroMaster88:

I would love to have him redo my engine swap in my 88.



wouldn't we all...



fieroguru MSG #404, 07-07-2014 07:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroMaster88:
Awesome! Looks super clean. I would love to have him redo my engine swap in my 88.


 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
wouldn't we all...


Thanks guys!

I am taking 6 months to a year off from customer swaps to focus on R&D to expand my product offerings...


ericjon262 MSG #405, 07-07-2014 08:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Thanks guys!

I am taking 6 months to a year off from customer swaps to focus on R&D to expand my product offerings...



!! I look forward to the new stuff! any particular products in mind???


Jefrysuko MSG #406, 07-08-2014 09:25 AM
      Yep, looks great Guru. Looking forward to seeing what else you have to offer here in the near future.

FieroMaster88 (fast88fiero@yahoo.com) MSG #407, 07-08-2014 07:14 PM
      I'm interested to see what else you make! I always need something new/cool for my Fiero.

Trinten MSG #408, 09-05-2014 08:06 PM
      So I've been doing some light driving on the Fiero with only a few minor hiccups, that I think I have resolved (thanks to FieroGuru's willingness to put up with my phone calls!)

I also went to swap out the old Sony head unit I had in there, and get a Kenwood in place that would be flush mounted with the Humount mount.

The part showed up today. I had done the wiring harness a few weeks ago, using bullet connectors to connect the Kenwood harness to the GM harness, this way if I ever wanted to swap out the stereo again, I'd have the GM pigtail in place, just need to put bullet connectors onto the new headunits pigtails, and bam!

I still need to play with it, the Fiero silver piece that sits over everything isn't sitting right. I thought it was the two tabs that are between the HVAC control cut out and radio cut out, so I trimmed them, but there is still a gap between the back of the panel and the front of the Humount around the face. The lower right corner of the Fiero panel has no play in it at all (wont' go back any further), but the center will flex to touch the Humount. This could be a simple as I didn't screw the Humount in all the way. It also leaves a small gap along the right hand side, where you can see the white plastic of the Humount.

I'll put up some pics tomorrow.

Also, couldn't connect the power to light up the Humount yet, the wires are too short to splice them into the bullet-connector I have in place already, and I didn't want to cut up the harness more than I needed to. So I'm going to extend the wires for the Humount.

And I need to probably redo the harness wiring anyway. When I powered up the stereo, only one speaker was working this time. I reached behind the dash and jabbed the wires with my fingertips, and two more came on. That leaves the driver-side rear speaker, not sure if the speaker is toast or if my wiring is so bad that no amount of playing with it would make it work.



Trinten MSG #409, 09-13-2014 06:33 PM
      Okay, so I figured out what the issue was with the fascia and the rest of the stuff.

The two lower guide holes for the screws were (are) hitting the corners of the Humount bezel. I was able to put a little flex on it and fit it on there, however the holes for the fascia do not line up now. Good news is that the two tension retaining clips on the fascia, and the tension from the guides pressing on the side of the Humount are holding it snuggly in place.

I also soldered the two adapters together last night, and wired the Humount's LED lights to the main Ground and the 12v Ignition on wire.... but they didn't light up.

I made the assumption that the white wire with the small piece of red banding on it was the negative (since usually it's the negative wires that are a solid color w/ a stripe), but I might have this backwards. The good news is, in anticipation of this possibility, I did not solder the wire extensions I put to the LED leads. I just did the "Western union" twist on them (like I do before I solder), and then taped them.

Since Autofair is next weekend, I don't feel like taking it all apart again just to flip those wires, but I did leave the smoked plexi out, so the "Fiero GT" is a nice contrasting white against the black bezel. So it looks good enough for now.

Next project before autofair is to split the juice that's powering the fuel pump and the water pump to their own fuses. Right now those two things are running off their own relays, but the same fuse. I have everything I should need to do the split, just need to take the time to cut-and-splice. FieroGuru did a great job of soldering/heat shrinking everything on this wiring panel, but I'm a little hesitant to try to get my iron in there, so for this I'm going to use crimping butt connectors.

Then I'm going to drag the vacuum out there and give the interior a good vacuuming and cleaning... then do what I can to clean the outside (which looks terrible, but paint is always last!)


Trinten MSG #410, 09-26-2014 03:43 PM
      Here's a pic of my Humount flush stereo install kit. I need to take it back out to trim it up around where the screw holes pass through in the bezel. Because of the round circles/stands on the back of the bezel, it doesn't quite sit right or line up to be properly screwed in, but the tension there holds the bezel in place.



Trinten MSG #411, 09-15-2017 11:06 AM
      The importance of buying exact replacement parts when you have a modified car, and knowing how to drive stick.

Hi everyone! It's been a few years since I've had the car back, so I wanted to update everyone.

Overall, for such a heavy amount of modification, the car has been amazingly trouble free, there's been a few hiccups, mainly due to the parts. Like I had an odd oil leak I had to chase down, and discovered that my intake was not sitting flush with the engine, so a shop fixed that (partial planing out the bottom of the intake and adjusting the gasket).

Minor crap aside, here is my tale of "How I learned I've been driving a manual wrong... and what it did to my car."
Let me start by saying I effectively taught myself by puttering up and down a back street. From reading I knew "riding the clutch" was bad, but you needed to do a little of it to get rolling from a dead stop. My mistake was I also thought that as you shifted, you should start to give it a little gas near the end of the clutch re-engaging (as you lift your foot) to try to get the flywheel and clutch to be spinning at a closer rate. This would, in my mind, provide a smoother ride, and only marginally impact clutch wear.

The issue was, when driving aggressive, I would do the same thing. The inch or so before my foot was completely off the clutch pedal, I'd start pushing down the throttle. I was making my belt jump off and get chewed up with regularity (5.5K-6K shifts from 2nd on up, belt typically jumped between 3rd and 4th gear).

I foolishly chalked it up to "This is what happens when you have modified toys." and just dealt with it. FieroGuru was baffled, he had put on aroun 700 miles, and said he had some aggressive driving, and had no belt issues. Let me stress here that I am standing behind FieroGuru and the awesome work he has done, this is entirely on me. I'm just giving some background.

So I lived with the belt issues, and always kept a spare. Then one day when putting the belt back on (it had just hopped off, no damage), I notice there's a piece of metal missing from the belt tensioner (I have pics, I will post them up later this weekend). To me it didn't seem to impact it's operation, so I ignored it. Dumb move 2. Or maybe 3 at this point? Anyhow.

A local buddy was helping me out with some stuff, and I mentioned the belt issues. He looks at it and says "That's broken. The stop is gone, so the spring is pulling it forward too much." Oh... well, that might help explain the belt issues. I text FieroGuru, and in <10 minutes he tells me exactly what kind of car it's out of, and even gives me the freaking part number! What a memory!

Off to RockAuto! All the pictures look the same, and since I was buying Gates heavy duty belts, I figure I'll get a Gates tensioner.

It shows up, I go back to Mikes, he takes out the plate holding the tensioner... they are not the same. The Gates is an "improved design" (again, I have lots of pictures, I will edit this and put them all in). The improved design moved the bolt holds ever-so-slightly. Mike marks them with a grease pen and carefully opens up the space on the plate. Then we discover the pulley won't swap over. Now it gets complicated.

I offer for us to go up to a parts store and just grab the exact part number Guru gave me. He likes how beefy the new one looks, and wants to make it work. He built his 700HP Grand National (old school mechanic), so I trusted his expertise and amazing collection of tools he has to get this done. So he digs through his buckets and boxes of parts, and finds another pulley (from a Grand National) that is not ribbed, but is "lipped". He says he's done pulley swaps like that before, and shouldn't impact the belt life. The pulley fits! It's also a little bigger than the old pulley.

New pulley goes on. Tensioner goes on the bracket... and there's some clearance issues when the tensioner rotates. A little more grinding (with him commenting on the strength of the steel plate that the bracket was made from), and it's working. Next challenge... larger pulley, means belt length changes.

For giggles, we tried one of the Gates HD belts, it was not going to work. To the parts store!

I brought the old tensioner and one of the belts, just for comparison. While there, I did pick up a Dayco tensioner that is exactly like my old one. We picked up two different longer belts (I'll list all of the belt sizes when I put the pictures up).

After some trial and error, we got it all together. He was also helping me fix my A/C, so we take it for a test drive to Walmart. This is the first time he's been in the Fiero with me driving (he's driven it a few times). After a little babying, I jump on it in a free-and-clear space. It holds up. As we continue the cruise, Mike says "Well, I found your problem."

"What's that?" I ask.
"You. You don't shift correctly."
... "What?"
"You're giving it gas before the clutch is fully engaged on every gear."
"Right?"
"No. You should let the clutch fully engage before you give it gas."
"That's... going to the ride kind of jerky when I shift."
"If you're shifting when you're not supposed to, yeah. But when you hit it right, it'll still be smooth."
"Well damn, now I know why Guru said my last clutch only had about half it's life left, with only 5 or 10K miles on it."
"Yup."
He then explained with how I was shifting, the tensioner was doing a lot more work, and was snapping around more than it needed to, this whipping effect on the belt made it easy for it pop off. Well damn.

So we get refrigerant, and on the way back I practice what he told me. Sometimes it was not pleasant, but after a little bit, the shifts were almost as smooth as when I was "riding" the clutch a touch at the end.

Driving home was interesting, going into second gear a few times was a head bobbing experience, but 3/4/5 were all pretty smooth.

He also told me about how Buick had a "screw-drive" solid tensioner, and that if I wanted to explore that, he'd try to figure out how to put it into my car - simply to make it easier to put the belt on by myself if I ever have to replace it again at the side of the road or something.

As part of my roadside kit, I'm keeping the old style tensioner, with the pulley Guru gave me, and the belt for that setup, along with the 4 sizes of socket/wrenches I need to swap all of that stuff in the car. I need to put together a roadside bag like Guru's.

Again, I'll edit this with pics on Sunday or Monday, and make a post so everyone will know when the pics have been added.

My thanks to FieroGuru for continuing to be awesome and response when I have questions and I am not near my computer to go through my notes -- as well as the quality of his work, which won some great recognition for clean install/clean wiring at car shows, and a lot of impressed nods from mechanics and engineers alike.


fieroguru MSG #412, 09-15-2017 07:28 PM
      Vince, glad you figured it out, are enjoying the car, and that it has received several favorable comments about the swap!

You might want to consider a specialized alternator pulley that is called and Overrun Alternator Decoupling pulley (OAD) that will help reduce accessory belt vibrations.
https://aviondemand.com/pro...-vs-overrunning-adp/

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-16-2017).]

La fiera MSG #413, 11-13-2017 06:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:


My thanks to FieroGuru for continuing to be awesome and response when I have questions and I am not near my computer to go through my notes -- as well as the quality of his work, which won some great recognition for clean install/clean wiring at car shows, and a lot of impressed nods from mechanics and engineers alike.


I was very impressed with Guru's work when I saw your car for the first time!!


Trinten MSG #414, 04-22-2018 08:32 AM
      So as the Fiero is down for repairs, and one of the things that needs to be fixed is the headlights/bucket assembly on one side, I've been looking at other options besides putting back in the twin 90mm Hella lamps I had.

I found this - an LED 4x6 headlight assemble I'm considering (though may not get this exact one, I don't care about the RGB 'halo' around it) - https://colorwerkzled.com/c...pre-built-headlights

I also admittedly like the new style of headlights that Acura is using across their entire line. So I'm wondering if the top of the GT bumper can be modified to fit those in there, and then the headlight panels would be patched and smoothed over. This would be problematic as I still intend to do the F355 nose that Amida makes, so I'm factoring in that as well. If anyone has any (technical) thoughts on this, please chime in!

Also, I did realize that I failed to post the pictures I intended to add to my last post. I need to see if I ever moved them off my phone to my computer, and start that process.


La fiera MSG #415, 04-22-2018 09:30 PM
      Nice to see you are bringing the monster back to life! Let me know when you come to Mooresville, I'll break my piggy bank and treat you to Burrito Loco. (This guy can eat!!)



Trinten MSG #416, 05-26-2019 08:55 AM
      Hello all!

I know it's been a while. For those that know me, I like to do my homework, ask annoying questions, do more research, and save up money to pay people far more skilled than I to get things done!

The guy who is doing this next round of upgrades is fairly local to me. I met him 6 or 7 years ago now. What sold me on his skills is the stuff he'd done with his Grand National - a remarkable mix of fabrication (welding) skills, electrical planning, modification, and making things look like they came from the factory that way. He's a career mechanic and loves challenges, but does the "boring routine stuff" to keep cash flowing in. He has toys (both cars and a ridiculous tool chest and other fabrication tools) that I wish I had the space for... and the knowledge to use effectively.

Anyhow!! Onto some details, right?

Tranmission update!
I decided to get rid of the manual transmission. Mike (said mechanic) wanted it my F23 for his own Fiero project (he caught the bug from me and fellow Fiero enthusiast Chug). So he has that. Knowing I wanted to go Automatic, I reached out to FieroGuru with a pretty simple question -- what's the strongest automatic out there?

FieroGuru's reply: "Depends on what you wanted out of it. The strongest would be the 4T80, the most interesting would be the 6T75 (using the Ford version that came with the V8)."

Well then... 4T80 it is!

Next I reached out to DarthFiero, who connected me to Dave over at Triple Edge Performance. Dave was really good with a pre-sales call, we talked through everything. He had started investigating building up the 4T80, and had a number of cores, but the business wasn't there for it yet. He did say he slapped a stock 4T80 into one of his cars and had beating on it for over a year with no issues. The conversation ended pretty simply "Throw every trick you have at it for me."

Mike also insisted I get a torque converter with a billet cover, his concern was ballooning and didn't want the fast spinning chunk of metal behind my back to rip through and hurt me if things went south. I'll get to why that's a concern of his later. Transmission first!

Dave said the company he worked with for torque converters could probably do it. So Triple Edge was paid for the transmission and torque converter. The transmission took much longer to be ready than originally anticipated - Dave was transparent on the cause of the delays, which I appreciated. The downside is his TC Company said they couldn't do a billet cover for a 4T80, so they wanted to do one for a 4T65... which means (as Dave tells me), I now need to get a pump input shaft that is 4T65 on one side, and 4T80 on the other. He's looking into details - there is a machine shop that will build it for me once I have those details. And since it'll be a custom part, I'll get two.

I have since found a full blown race shop that will basically fabricate any torque converter.... but their prices start at 3k, and that's for the stuff they regularly do. So putting that on the back burner for now.

Meziere is making the custom flexplate I need. They have been awesome to work with! Again, I ordered two. The price break after the first one was too good to pass up, and again, custom stuff. Plus they gave me the technical sheet for it, so if I ever need one made by them or anyone ever in the future, I just need to give them that sheet!

"Trinten! Shut up and show us a picture!" .... okay, fine.



"But Trinten! The 4T80 was never paired with a SBC! It won't work!!!" .... really? Are you sure...? Cause, you know, this:

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

And this:



And this:



No, that is not me in the picture, that is Mike. And no, he is not missing part of his right ring-finger, it's just a creepy camera angle. You can't stop looking now, can you?

In full disclosure, this did require taking a 2" corner out of the SBC flange for the transmission lobe to clear so the bolt holes will line up. Mike will also be tapping holes on the trans bell housing to take full advantage of all of the bolt holes in the adapter/block. He was also happy that the bracket holes on the lobe line up well with some mounting points on the block, so he's going to build a brace there to help with forces.

Right now the assembly is sitting on a makeshift "stand" The previous pics were from a few weeks ago. This next one was from yesterday, which will lead into my next post!



And yes, doing this means modifying the cradle. Wait... did I say modifying the cradle? Hmm, no, Mike says that all the time it would take to modify the cradle, he might as well just build one for me. Out of chromemoly. So that's happening. Custom engine cradle! ... which works out well with some of the upcoming surprises...

To the next post!

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 05-26-2019).]

Trinten MSG #417, 05-26-2019 09:24 AM
      On to Suspension

This time I'm opening up with a picture! Mike has been working on the front-end, getting my awesome new wheels on. Check this out!



Yup, that is a C5 Corvette wheel! What's that? Spacers?? Why would I need Spacers?! Oh, because of the bolt pattern? Not a problem. We used Corvette hubs. And Controls arms. And steering rack.... and transverse spring. What's that Mike? Oh! You just took the entire C5 front end suspension and bolted it up to my Fiero? Awesome!

Background, then more pictures!

Mike drove my Fiero about 4 years ago. He was really impressed with it... mostly. He didn't like the suspension. After accident, when discussing with him my options, he said "If we rebuild the car, we're not using that suspension. We need better stuff." That 'better stuff' is C5 Vette, front and back.

Mike was impressed at how "easy" it was to bolt up the Vette front suspension and make the modifications for mounting points and the steering wheel column. Notice easy is in quotes... because easy is seriously relative at this point.

Picture time!













I have more pictures, but you get the idea right now.

In before the obvious comments!

Yes, the car sits higher right now. I actually like it. It will drop about an inch once all the other stuff is done, and Mike said there is a Vette bump steer kit that will drop it another inch.

Yes, the wheels turn lock to lock and clear everything.

Yes, I will be using the power steering. This will be done by mounting a 2nd Generation Toyota MR2 Spyder EHPS Pump up front. I found and bought three of them, because they are getting rare.

Yes, the wheels stick out. I will be getting flared wheel wells sometime in the future. Bodywork and paint are always last on my list.

Mike cut off the Fiero stock mounting points, and made new mounting brackets that connect to the Fiero Frame and go to the stock Vette mounting points. Apparently these two things are ridiculously lined up.

If anyone else has put a C5 Vette front suspension in their Fiero, I haven't found it/seen it... so I'm tentatively going to say "First!"

I have no pics of the rear yet... because it can't be done until Mike is done with the custom cradle. He said the back is going to sit up high, too. I told him fine, and I actually wanted to see if he could make the back sit up higher than the front... I like the "Raked" look. If you're not a fan of that look, that's fine, it's not being built for you, is it?

There are more surprises in store, but I'll wait till more is done to post pictures and info.

Also, all of the interior of this Fiero came out, it was the Beachwood tan/brown stuff. Including, I think, Mr. Mike's leather seats! I'm going to be cleaning (almost) all of it up and posting it in the Mall sometime tomorrow, if anyone needs anything. Edit: I thought all the tan stuff was the beachwood stuff, shows how little I pay attention to interior colors.

Here is the link to my TAN/BROWN interior parts for sale: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/077786.html

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 05-28-2019).]

G-Man MSG #418, 05-29-2019 05:51 PM
      Did the starter and oil filter present any problems or are they pretty much like they are in any other SBC/auto swap? How are you controlling the 80?

I'm very interested to see how this combo fits the engine bay and how the added weight affects the ride and handling. It's about 90 lbs or so heavier than the 4t65 which is itself probably a lot heavier then the MT you are taking out.

Oh, and e.t.a: The front of your car is probably sitting higher because it used to support the weight of an engine in the Vette. You might need to add some ballast. I can give you my ex-wife's number if you want?

Gary

[This message has been edited by G-Man (edited 05-29-2019).]

Trinten MSG #419, 05-29-2019 09:37 PM
      LOL,

Thanks Gary, good questions and observations. Yes, Mike said that once the radiator and everything else was back in the front, it would bring it down a touch.

There are aftermarket corvette suspension parts, up to some ridiculous (leaf) spring rates, front and back. So I'm ready to drop coin to get whatever it takes to keep the rear end geometry right.

We're going to keep using the 411 PCM that was controlling my engine before, we're going to reflash it with the Transmission tables for the 4L80, which has the same solenoid layout as the 4T80. So the computer will think it's a 4L80.

I can't answer all the details about how it'll all fit. Mike had multiple ideas of how things were going to fit in there, and what he might or might not modify as he built up the cradle and started doing test fitting and more measurements. I'll hold off on the thoughts he was pitching to me for a few reasons.
1. They're just ideas so far, and I don't know which one will wind up being executed.
2. I won't be able to answer most of the technical questions!

Mike said he'd consider registering here and making some posts. No promises. Once it's done or as it progresses, I'll do my best to answer questions.


RCR (rcrabine@comcast.net) MSG #420, 06-01-2019 11:35 AM
      Very cool, Trinten (and team).

Before I got neck deep in my rebody, I was looking at the C4 cross member for the front. The dimensions I looked at showed that the locations of the control arms were much further inward than the Fiero and they would interfere with a lot of things. Ultimately I put an 88 suspension in. Awesome that you got the C5 in. I'm still considering the C4 rear, but it still needs a lot of research (and time) before pulling the trigger.

There isn't a clear picture on how the shock is done. Would you be able to go with coil-overs and eliminate the transverse spring? I know you mentioned you kind of like it, but is it truely the lack of weight not bringing it back down, or is the suspension that much taller?

Either way, well done, team.

Bob



Trinten MSG #421, 06-01-2019 11:22 PM
      The front will definitely come down after everything is back in there, it doesn't take much weight to drive it down. Leaning on it pushes it down a little.

I think right now the transverse spring will stay in. The spring rate might change depending on how it goes. He did make some marks and adjustments again. The front wheels sit a little more center to the wheel wells. He's got more he wants to do before he decides it's ready to have the new new mounts welded on.

I honestly haven't looked/asked about how the shocks will mount up yet. Given how much of the front is staged now, he'll probably be doing that soon. He also has one of the big pieces to the new rear cradle tack-welded together. Today he dropped the V6 engine and cradle.

That reminds me. I need to either update my post in the mall, or start another one. See if anyone needs anything off the old v6 engine.




Trinten MSG #422, 06-09-2019 01:41 AM
      I was out there again today. I couldn't do much but ask questions and stare.

The chrome moly cradle is coming along. The rough shape of it is straight-forward and just tack-welded together for test fitting and measurements for the moment. I also have a few shots of mock-ups for the control arms. The upper control arms might need to be flipped (And swapped L-R).

While it looks like the bottom bar is lower, it's only 1.625" lower than the stock cradle. My understanding is that Mike is going to finish mocking up the brackets for the arms then set my engine/trans on the cradle. It will let him make marks and measurements to do the engine/transmission mounts.

Once he's comfortable that he's got it all right, everything comes back apart so final bracing, welding and clean-up can happen, and everything goes off for powdercoating. In it's current form, it's also ridiculously light. If it weighs 40 pounds I'd be shocked. It can be easily held up with one hand.

I know, I know.... "pics!" I took a bunch of others, like a close up of the bracket he made for the adjustable side of the Corvette lower a-arm, but the pic wasn't well lined up (my fault).















[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 06-09-2019).]

La fiera MSG #423, 06-12-2019 09:36 AM
      Nice Job Vincent!!
So, just let me know when you are coming this way
so we can have some Burrito Loco!


Trinten MSG #424, 06-16-2019 11:44 PM
      Just a small update!

one of the "fun" things with any transmission swap is... axles!
So I figured the easiest way to start comparing things was to buy an axle from a Caddy that came with the 4T80, and one from a C5 Vette. The 4T80 inboard side of the axle is female. Interestingly, when I was looking at axles on O'Reily's, I saw they had a C5 axle with a female inboard side!!

So I bought that one. It's a Precision GM8214 axle.

It fits! It plugged into the transmission without any issues. Mike said it had no play, was fully seated, and the clip snapped into place!

Now it doesn't solve the length issue - but that's what the Drive Shaft Shop in Charlotte will be for. It will just make it much simpler to call them and give them that part number for the information and the proper length, instead of saying "I need the inboard from this car, the shaft to be this long, and the tripod for a C5 vette."

Overall, pretty excited!

I won't hope that the factory lengths are going to be correct... I'm not that lucky.


RCR (rcrabine@comcast.net) MSG #425, 06-24-2019 08:41 PM
     

Bob


Trinten MSG #426, 06-24-2019 10:02 PM
      I was out there again this past Sunday. Mostly staring. And helping to line stuff up/brace things/be an extra set of hands. I need to get the pics off the phone and see which are worth burning up folks bandwidth.

Mike drilled out the other... I don't know what you call them.. ears? The tabs that we can use to making additional bolting points fo marry the transmission to the engine. He spent a lot of time doing tack welding and working out immediate logistics and future impacts, working on the engine and transmission mounts. When it's done he wants to accomplish a few things:

1. Make it serviceable without fighting the cradle.
2. Creating brackets that will use some of the mounting points on snout of the transmission to the the nearby points on the engine, reducing flex/strain on the snout under load.
3. Use every available mounting point to the goal of "This should be rock solid even with one less mount than I'm planning". Basically doing what I asked - make it as bullet proof as possible.

The monster-sized 4T85 did change some of the plans for the upper control arm. Nothing that will keep me from buying "off the shelf parts" in the future if I ever need them, and it will be serviceable once done, just requires some more engineering and welding magic up front.

Once he has a few more things done, he's going to figure out the length of the axles I'll need. And if necessary (I suspect it will be), I'll be giving DSS follow up call to crank out the custom length corvette axles.

Frustratingly -- we did find a flaw with the Meizere flexplate bolt pattern for the crank. I have to hold my hand up and take ownership on it, because the company did send me a technical drawing ahead of time, and I missed the f'ing obvious way to validate the drawing was right (short of making Mike split the trans and engine). Which would have been to pull up a technical drawing of a standard 1pc rear main seal SBC crank. Mike said he can make the (thankfully minor) modifications to make it work without weakening the plate. Besides this bolt pattern issue, he was impressed with the quality of the piece.

AND! Triple Edge Performance shipped my torque converter, pumpshaft, and sleeve on Friday. That should show up at Mike's on Tuesday/Wednesday. I'll ask him to send me pics after he makes sure it's all right, so I can post those up.

I won't be out there for a few weeks. He's busy this upcoming weekend, I'll be busy the weekend after that. So besides possibly posting up some pics, the next notable update will be mid-July!


Oh. I did replace the other front break caliper while I was there. So that's done. So now the front Corvette stuff has the Z51 'Vette sway bar, new brake calipers, pads, rotors. I did notice the chrome was starting to peel bubble on one of the wheels, starting in the lugnut pockets. Refinishing those will be added (near the bottom) of the list.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #427, 06-25-2019 08:45 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:





That's a lot of trouble to go through to end up with a soft-mounted cradle. Why not hard mount it like an '88's? Probably easier to fab...

Also, triangulate the heck out of that thing, as it'll be taking a lot of suspension loads. Probably also a good idea to box & brace the body side of the forward cradle mounts.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #428, 06-25-2019 08:51 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Just a small update!

one of the "fun" things with any transmission swap is... axles!
So I figured the easiest way to start comparing things was to buy an axle from a Caddy that came with the 4T80, and one from a C5 Vette. The 4T80 inboard side of the axle is female. Interestingly, when I was looking at axles on O'Reily's, I saw they had a C5 axle with a female inboard side!!

So I bought that one. It's a Precision GM8214 axle.

It fits! It plugged into the transmission without any issues. Mike said it had no play, was fully seated, and the clip snapped into place!

Now it doesn't solve the length issue - but that's what the Drive Shaft Shop in Charlotte will be for. It will just make it much simpler to call them and give them that part number for the information and the proper length, instead of saying "I need the inboard from this car, the shaft to be this long, and the tripod for a C5 vette."

Overall, pretty excited!

I won't hope that the factory lengths are going to be correct... I'm not that lucky.


Check out the DSS website... they have a bunch of cool things for Corvettes

Like these: https://www.driveshaftshop....ine-spline-both-ends



That's why the Corvette inner CV is female. The diff requires different lengths, but having these stubs means they can use the same axles left and right.

They also have drive flanges for the Corvette wheel bearings, so they could make your entire axle setup from scratch.


Trinten MSG #429, 06-25-2019 04:24 PM
      By hard mounted, if you mean the engine/trans mounts will be hard mounted - yes that is the plan. They will not have any bushings at the engine/transmission mounts.

And yes, that frame you're seeing is far from what the output will be. Mike was showing me the places where he's going to do exactly what you said, build in triangulation points.

Thanks for the info on the axles! DSS is the shop that will be making them when I know the measurements. I think I called that out in my last post. Just not in the one you quoted.

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 06-25-2019).]

ericjon262 MSG #430, 06-25-2019 10:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

By hard mounted, if you mean the engine/trans mounts will be hard mounted - yes that is the plan. They will not have any bushings at the engine/transmission mounts.

And yes, that frame you're seeing is far from what the output will be. Mike was showing me the places where he's going to do exactly what you said, build in triangulation points.

Thanks for the info on the axles! DSS is the shop that will be making them when I know the measurements. I think I called that out in my last post. Just not in the one you quoted.



he means why use bushings at the cradle mounting points, they add a level of unpredictability to the suspension because the mounting points of the suspension now move relative to the body of the car.



Trinten MSG #431, 06-25-2019 10:55 PM
      Thanks for clarifying.

I don't have an answer for that. Next time I'm there I'll ask!


jb1 (james.brown.20107@gmail.com) MSG #432, 07-13-2019 03:49 AM
      Following , interested in how you done your front.. I am doing c6 on rear except going longitude ls setup... Was planning on figuring out front once rear is complete.



jb1 (james.brown.20107@gmail.com) MSG #433, 07-13-2019 03:52 AM
      Following , interested in how you done your front.. I am doing c6 on rear except going longitude ls setup... Was planning on figuring out front once rear is complete.



Trinten MSG #434, 07-14-2019 12:00 AM
      Updates as promised!

So to complete the answer to an earlier question about why Mike is using bushings in the new cradle, instead of solid mounting: given the engine/trans will be solid mounted to the new cradle, having those bushings in place will help reduce some of the vibration going to the body, and that tiny bit of flex could help in other rare situations.

The last few weeks he hadn't had much time to work on my setup due to unavoidable commitments. But he did build up some of the mounts and bracing on the cradle. It was pretty rough (all still in the tack-weld-fit-test-check stage), so I'm just giving you a teaser of one side!



Onto other issues, we did find a tiny bit of water in the cabin. Despite being out in many other rain storms, no water was found, but we had some seriously heavy rains in the last few weeks. Mike started to check it out, and found a little rust under the gasket. So I'll be hitting the Mall to order some of those stainless sunroof rails. In the meantime Mike put some sealant on under there.



On the rear of the cabin on both sides, the previous-previous-owner had cut (or tried to cut) out a panel, given all of the shoddy speaker wiring going on, it was probably to try to put a subwoofer on the passenger side. When they realized that the same pocket did not exist on the driver side, they put down some heavy duty foil type material and lots of caulk over where they started to cut. I stripped that off, Mike is going to weld in a new piece of metal once the gas tank is dropped.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

Now onto the exciting stuff! The frame rails will need to be modified to fit the new setup in there... instead of doing a little trimming like existed to make the original setup work, Mike is going to do something a bit more intense. He's going to take a large chunk of the framerail out on both sides, and replace it with a rock-solid bolt on chromemoly piece.

Why bolt on? Because this way getting to the valve body of the transmission, and the belt routin on the other side (plus most of the pulleys), can all be done without dropping the cradle. Just take off the wheels, wheel well cover, the cross beam, and access!

Oh yeah... and the strut towers? Getting rid of those, too, and going to weld in some smaller/better pieces.


Mike removed the spot welds and started disassembly the strut towers


More modifying


See the holes near the yellow markers on the right of this picture? Those were made by this awesome little air-compressor run tool he had, slipped it over the metal, hit the button, a quiet hiss of air and out popped a perfect little plate of metal! This way he can put spot welds back in.


Annnnd it's gone! To be replaced soon with the new and improved bolt-in-rails!

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 07-14-2019).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #435, 07-14-2019 09:15 AM
      Interesting stuff. Now I won't be the only one to build a stock wheelbase upper and lower wishbone coil over suspension. (SLA)



Trinten MSG #436, 07-14-2019 09:19 PM
      Cool! Do you have a link to your build thread? I'd love to check it out!

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #437, 07-14-2019 10:50 PM
      http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000029.html

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #438, 07-17-2019 12:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:


So to complete the answer to an earlier question about why Mike is using bushings in the new cradle, instead of solid mounting: given the engine/trans will be solid mounted to the new cradle, having those bushings in place will help reduce some of the vibration going to the body, and that tiny bit of flex could help in other rare situations.


We'll have to agree to disagree on that one. That logic is backwards. The suspension needs to be hard mounted while the powertrain should be soft mounted.


Trinten MSG #439, 07-22-2019 11:01 PM
      So some updates!

Weather sidetracked some things. This Saturday Mike tackled starting to dismantle the passenger side strut tower, and he welded the cuts the PPO (previous-previous-owner) did for their after market stereo stuff... which they apparently cut with tin snips!

The driver side was easier to clean up, prep and welded on a new piece of metal. We also got a tube of seam sealer (which I learned is different from RTV. Don't laugh. No one was born knowing that). Seam sealer has not been applied to the welds yet, the only tube of it in town we could find is not designed to go into a caulk gun, so once we open it, we have to use it.

The passenger side was a disaster. The jokers that did this used the aforementioned tin snips, then used pliers to bend back the jagged edges, THEN filled in the gaps with a creative combination of things. Including a bondo spreader, paper, a towel, window caulk, and this rubbery yellow stuff that was incredibly pliable, very tough to pierce, stretchy... but gave NO warning when it hit it's tensile limit, and it would instantly tear. It was very slow to dig that crap out. Then Mike unbent the jagged metal, dug out MORE of that garbage, cleaned it up and welded it!

The 'shapes' on the welded pieces are the glue that was on those metal pieces. They started their life as the top layer of a Saturn hood (before GM bought them).

Oddly, I didn't seem to take a picture of it after the final welding and painting. The picture of the passenger side is after all of the spot welding was done, but I think before he did the final grinding and painting.

I also took out the 5 speed shifter. I almost did it without anymore of the skeleton breaking. Almost. Only one small crack.

Because of the slight roof leak, and the scent of mildew that was on the carpet, I suspected some of the spots on the floorpan was mildew. When we went to lunch and made some stops for steel for the frame I picked up a bottle of mold/mildew cleaner, and cleaned the floorpan, console, etc.

This weekend Mike has plans, but said they might change, then he's going out of state for a trade show the second weekend of August, and making a trip back to his home state. Returning early September. That leaves, at best, this Sunday if his plans change and he's free (I have plans on Saturday), and
the weekend of August 3rd. After that, there won't be any progress until sometime in September.


Now then, pictures!!!


Driver side cabin hole prepped for welding... I guess when they saw the GASTANK FILLER TUBE they realized it was a bad idea.


All welded. Mike even used a airtool and hand tools to dimple in the steel to follow the original dimples!


Here's the passenger side... it looks deceptively okay! Just wait...


Yup... there's the towel. You can also see the caulk.


Mike is unbending all the metal, you can see all the jagged bits.


All cleaned up, some spot welding. Ready to be sealed up!


The near-finished product... I still can't believe I didn't take a finished picture.




Clean floorpan!


Last picture for today, the partially disassembled passenger side strut tower!


Trinten MSG #440, 08-03-2019 09:34 PM
      Today was a very accomplished day.

We had to stop at 3pm because Mike had other commitments, so I got out there a little earlier than I normally do. It was a great day to work on the car. Most of the day was overcast, so it was a little cooler. But the humidity spiked up later in the day and that sucked a little.

Anyhow. I started applying the Cool-It mat I bought. It's sound deadener and heat shielding. I had it in my last Fiero, and it made a difference with the heat. It's tough to say how much it helped with noise, since my exhaust was also upgraded when it was installed.

I got two rolls of it, which seemed to work out near-perfect. One full roll was used on the driver side. After this is in, I also have Thermo-tecs sound deadening stuff that's a little thicker, that'll be going in as well.



I even had a perfect little piece left over that went on the B-pillar next to the speaker. Speaking of Speakers... the stock speaker on the driver side? The back of the magnet was RUSTED. So badly that there was a crust of rust in a perfect little circle on the jute behind the speaker. So that jute will be replaced. Here's a shot of the speaker.



It took me an embarrassing amount of time... a lot of measuring, cutting -- with just a single edged razor blade -- and then fighting with the stuff to lay right initially before I used the roller to press it down.

While I did that, Mike finished working on the mounting plates for the removable frame rails. He tacked in some angle iron for right now as a place-holder. I took a pick after he removed the original passenger frame rail... you can see the angle iron place holder on the driver side. You'll be able to see the installed passenger side one in a minute.



Mike also pointed out this vapor/expansion tank that was tucked up on the passenger side. I thought these only came in '88s? Can anyone confirm? It was in bad shape, the fuel lines running to it were so rusty that they broke when he was working to remove it.




I started installing the cool-it mat on the passenger side, which was going quicker now that I learned from my previous experience. Then Mike stopped me.

Why?

Because he needed me out of the car while he did this little bit of work called... test fitting the cradle/drivetrain in the car!

It was slow going, we had to watch clearances EVERYWHERE because the engine compartment still has a lot of useless crap. on the firewall, and of course all of the cool stuff FieroGuru had done (like wiring relocations) don't exist here (yet).




And another shot, I tried to show how much more room there is now between the rail and the engine... with the original strut towers, an engine belt wouldn't even fit between the tower and face of the pulley easily. Now there's miles of room. The circumference of the chrome moly isn't much bigger than the angle iron if you drew a circle connecting it's three outmost positions.




And here's one from the driver side - the bottom of the cradle lines up perfectly with the ground effects of the car. It's working out beautifully so far! And again, tons of room between the transmission and where the new rail will be.




And here's another from the drivers side.



And lastly, one from the top, and then some details on fitment!



We did have to clearance the bracket for the decklid hinge on the passenger side. I expected this. Originally my first revision V8 Fiero was missing half that bracket. Mike didn't take that much off, just enough to get the body down far enough to bolt the cradle into place.

I did keep the awesome brackets that FieroGuru made when he did all the EFI work, so I told Mike I'd like those to go back in, which means getting rid of the stock spring and the rest of the bracket on both sides. We will also need to clearance the "support rail" of the decklid on the passenger side (about 1/8 of an inch), for the same reason FieroGuru had to -- so the decklid can close. Otherwise it hits the intake.

We're going to use the original Corvette Axles that came with all the parts, cut them, make some sleeves, and use them solely for test fitting to get perfect measurements, then the Drive Shaft Shop can make me a set.

Also!! I still have the OEM Getrag axles that were in this car... are they worth trying to sell? Or should I just throw them on a shelf until someone needs one? I know there are aftermarket options, but as FieroGuru has posted about in the past... the aftermarket ones aren't exact... just "close enough" to work in most stock applications. So anyway, let me know.

Mike is going to be unavailable for the next three weeks (approx), doing cool work stuff. So I don't expect to be back out there until sometime in early September.


fieroguru MSG #441, 08-04-2019 12:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
I thought these only came in '88s? Can anyone confirm?




They were first introduced in the 87 fiero (1st year with larger fuel tank) and carried over into the 88s.

Keep up the good work!


Trinten MSG #442, 08-04-2019 01:23 PM
      Thanks FieroGuru!

The gas tank was in good shape (unlike mine, which was looking rough), but that expansion tank is no good. So that's going on the list of things to buy!


Trinten MSG #443, 08-04-2019 08:45 PM
      Another update already? Why yes!

This one is about one of the other fun things I ordered... my interior.

As we all (should) know, Amida has cooked up some Amazing stuff for our cars interior and exterior. When I decided to pull the trigger on the rebuild, I decided I was getting said interior. Long ago, in a galaxy far away, I really loved his F355 interior. Ultimately I went with the G1 Interior mainly because of the double-din space, where I can put my Pumpkin headunit.

Amida was great to work with. He sent me a really well laid out "order sheet", and was great about asking follow up questions and sending me pictures and examples. He was super patient. He was also kind enough to send me out a nice little leather sample set, with notes on the back of each one. Sadly... I somehow lost said sample set. Amida didn't chew me out about it. I did offer to pay him for the replacement of it (offer still stands!)

It shouldn't surprise anyone, but I checked pretty much all the boxes. I got the leather upgrades, because screw vinyl. He did put an extra pad on the arm rests to reduce wear on the leather.

He's been great about sending me pictures with updates as the work progressed.

What I ordered:

Dash kit
Solstice dash vents
G6 glove box
Shifter boot
Dash upholstery

Door panel kit
Door upholstery
Optional insert diamond stitching
Leather upgrade, black
Armrest upholstery

And it all looks STUNNING.





He sent me a bunch more, close ups and different angles. If anyone wants me to post the rest, I can.


Trinten MSG #444, 08-22-2019 06:32 PM
      Just a few little updates for now. Mostly stuff that has arrived or will be shipped. Unrelated note for folks that don't know, Synchrony bank bought Paypal earlier this year, and I've had some really bizarre issues with them lately, and LOTS of finger pointing between parties. Personally I think it's more a technical issue someplace, but anyhow... just an FYI for folks.

So first up, Amida has sent me pics of the pillars that are all done in their gorgeous new leather wrap! He was also kind enough to repair the clips that broke off, the best that he could. At least the ones I had to send to him. So we'll have to make sure that when we get to putting this part in... it has no reason to ever come back out. Unless I ever get my hands on pristine pillars, then I'll send those to Amida to wrap, and I will carefully store them, coated in leather preserving goodness and wrapped in plastic until they are needed. lol






So Mike has been super busy getting the geometry right for the rear suspension. Before he was traveling, he was putting in a lot of weekday hours pinning this down. A vexing item was that the Vette rear suspension mounting points aren't level, they are angled, the front of the mount is lower than the back of the mount. So the end of the lower control arm is "clocked" to be level with this canted setup. This meant he had to find a way to closely replicate that in the space we have, without having to worry about binding up the ball joint, and still being able to build secure mounting points.

He is finally happy with the outcome, and after slapping on (one of the old tie rods that will be replaced), was even happier, there was only one point where the wheel 'twitched' along the path of travel from his first tie rod placement, and he wants to get rid of that, effectively eliminating bump steer.




Rewinding to July, we had a little Fiero get together out here (I have pics, but have not posted them on the invite thread we had here), only three Fieros, my Town Car, a Typhoon, and Mikes Grand National. The point of the story is, Mike was talking about the project, and mentioned he wanted to get fatter tires under the car. The wheels that came with all the suspensions stuff we bought are 17x8.5 and 18x9.5. So where do you go from there? Z06, of course.

I spent... way too much time... reading on the Vette forums, finding wheel weights, seeing what fit (yes I know, other applications, might not apply here, etc etc), and seeing what style I liked. I *ALMOST* bought some C7 Z06s that were for sale in a Vette forum super cheap... and wondered why they weren't gone... then googled and saw there was talk of Vette owners doing a class action because those wheels were failing all over the place.

So as I narrowed down my list, I found a set I liked the look of, and are super light. 2001 Z06 wheels. The guy had them for a number of years sitting in his basement, he had put HREs on his Vette. The price I got for these was awesome. There were single wheels, in much worse condition, selling for more than the relative price per wheel I paid. Anyhow, here they are! Mike said he wants to get them to fit... if we can't, I know I can resell them and make a profit. 17x9.5 and 18x10.5s





If we can get them to fit and clear, I'll be wrapping them in Continental ExtremeContact Sport tires. Found multiple articles where this tire placed first or second in tire shootouts, and others that seemed to like them alot. On the Vette boards a lot of the guys seem to be using NItto, so that's another one I will check into.

Oh! So going back to a much older conversation Mike and I had... he said "How loud do you want this to be?" to which I said "I want it to be as quiet as possibly without it seriously impacting performance." "So like my Grand National?" "Exactly." which sounds nice, but isn't obnoxious until you jam on it. Basically the history here is, when I first got my last Fiero with the V8... there was no exhaust system. At all. Effectively straight pipes. So it was horribly loud and headaches ensued with even short drives at low speeds.

When I had the new engine put in, and later the EFI stuff done, upgrades were done to add beefier exhaust components (that's why the last one lost the 'suitcase wedge' in the trunk). It was better, but a few hours at high way speeds was still headache inducing, and there wasn't even any resonance, so no drone, just noise.

Anyhow! Mike said okay, and told me he'd send me a list of stuff to start buying... and part of my new exhaust system has shown up. He swears it'll make the engine noise a little quieter, but this is the strangest muffler I've ever seen!



It's a Precision Industries 7675 ceramic ball bearing T4 .81 A/R anti-surge cover something something... something. Turbocharger, I think?

( edited to fix a typo on suitcase, and to fix the wheel sizes, which I incorrectly marked as 18/19, when they are 17/18. Thanks for the catch, Will!)

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 08-29-2019).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #445, 08-29-2019 09:22 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

18x9.5 and 19x10.5s





If we can get them to fit and clear, I'll be wrapping them in Continental ExtremeContact Sport tires. Found multiple articles where this tire placed first or second in tire shootouts, and others that seemed to like them alot. On the Vette boards a lot of the guys seem to be using NItto, so that's another one I will check into.



I'm guessing since those are chromed that they're repros rather than originals... the original sizes are 17x9.5 and 18x10.5.
Just hoping to save you some pain when you're ready to order tires.

I would go with a bigger front-to-rear stagger than the 'Vette had...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-29-2019).]

Trinten MSG #446, 08-29-2019 06:01 PM
      Hey Will,

No, these are the originals. I very well could have mistyped up the sizes, I was going by memory on the diameter. I verified the casting marks (and yes, there are forgers out there that try to do casting marks, but they don't do them well). I will go back and edit my post appropriately!

I've already priced out the tires. I do my homework


Trinten MSG #447, 09-16-2019 09:26 PM
      Hey guys,

I know I haven't done some updates in a while. As you might recall, Mike had a pretty busy month mostly out of state last month. And this month we had the fun hurricane (I was fine, in-state enough where we just had some rain on Friday). A great friend drove 6 hours from his off-site job to hang out and help me build the first waves of shelves in the garage. These shelves are heavy duty. Pressure treated wood, 3/4 inch OSB plywood, and intermediate pressure treated wood, so all of the weight sits on the 2x4, not on the screws (we went through 4 lbs of steel screws. Everything was cross secured). I can park my car on these things! Now to finish organizing my garage! Since then I've painted the decks (top and bottom) with a good oil based primer to protect them from moisture, leaky chems, whatever. In a year I'll paint the uprights. (Thanks again Chug!)



Now onto car stuff!

So I mentioned Mike is happy with all the positioning of the suspension on the driver side. He's going to do some careful work and framing so he can duplicate it exactly on the passenger side. The new tie rod ends and hubs are sitting for final assembly (after powdercoating).



Now with that done, Mike slapped the wheel on, so we can see what the 9.5" wheels will look like on the back.



At some point I'll go out there with a front and rear of the Z06 wheels, and a few rolls of bubble wrap to "build up" the wheel and mimic the dimensions of the tire to get an idea of fitment. That's entirely my idea. I haven't asked Mike on that one yet. Figured it'd be easier than finding some "good used" wheels to wrap on a couple of them for testing, then if it does work (or doesn't!) deal with the wrapper again.

Mike has gotten the radiator to a place where he's happy. The new build car didn't have a condenser in it, thankfully I had a new one sitting in a box over there (I've had it for a few years, because of course I did).

Now as some might know (I didn't! Mike educated me), the condensor mounts by screwing into these rubber mount things. Which were just wrecked. So Mike made a small cut so he could put in a J-hook. I think I asked about vibration. I don't remember what Mike said, so not going to put words in his mouth. But he's building my car with the same care and eye to dependability that he's put into his prize Grand National, so I'm comfortable with whatever he said.



The Afco radiator came with mounts designed to go into a completely different car. Mike felt bad about slicing into a pristine unit, but with the mounting brackets it had, it was about a half-inch too wide. Mike had a better idea for mounting it anyway, so off they went!

Brand new.



Mounts and a shot underneath







I also asked Mike if he can build a skid plate with support bars going to the frame, to protect the radiator from dips, speed bumps, etc and help with ducting, he said yes. He wanted to put more weight up front anyway... so this helps!


I also sent off five (in total) GT steering wheels to be restored and re-wrapped with leather. One of them was done up in stock Indy colors for Mike's Indy build he's prepping for. Another is for a friend of a friend in the community. The remaining two spares... I don't know what I'll do with them. Probably coat one in a good leather protector and put it in a bag and keep it in the house where it's temp controlled. Maybe years down the road, when these are hens-teeth rare, I'll be tempted to sell one.

Here's a pic of one of mine.




My TIAL wastegate also showed up. It's a 60mm. Mike wanted me to get a 50, but they don't make a 50, it was 44 or 60. Since my turbo has an anti-surge cover, the 60 should be okay. At worst, I'll sell this one and get their V44.




Now for the low of the recent efforts. I bought the replacement carpet for the car from ACC. Keep in mind the interior has been out of this car for a long time, and I made the mistake of assuming the carpet that Mike pulled out hadn't been tampered with by the previous-previous owner. In hindsight, I realized they would have during their misguided subwoofer escapades. Anyhow, I used the old carpet to try to template the new carpet. I'll chalk it up to exhaustion that I didn't stop to question why the new carpet was so much longer... *sigh*. Anyhow, Mike says we can fix it, and no one will notice.

SNAFU aside, I was also disappointed that the new carpet was not better molded to fit the dips and risers of the floorplan. After the carpet was put in, when you would push in certain places, the carpet would shift and not lay nicely. Granted, this is mostly by the firewall, so it's not likely to be found by accident.

Anyhow, onto some of the pics of my first attempt at carpet replacement... I'm debating on if I want to buy another set and try again. I will wait and see if we can fix it, and I'll contact ACC to see if I can buy some panels of the carpet for repair if needed.








I have three major big boxes there with my awesome new interior stuff from Amida!! We did not open the boxes yet. I also need to contact the Fiero Store, my new headliner has not shown up yet.

We also tried taking the manual pedal assembly out... and discovered that a major wiring harness blocks it from coming free. So if anyone knows a trick to getting it out so we can put in the automatic pedal assembly... without doing a bunch of wiring, please let me know!

Last update for right now. Some years ago, IMSA GT was making some cool carbon fiber custom badges. So I put in my order. Black and red carbon fiber and pearl paint, with my original Fiero's name, and the (much niftier) Pegasus profile. Life happens, so it's taken some time for it to get done. I'm very happy with the outcome!

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 09-16-2019).]

La fiera MSG #448, 09-17-2019 09:41 AM
      Is he still making those?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #449, 09-17-2019 01:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
So I mentioned Mike is happy with all the positioning of the suspension on the driver side. He's going to do some careful work and framing so he can duplicate it exactly on the passenger side. The new tie rod ends and hubs are sitting for final assembly (after powdercoating).





We also tried taking the manual pedal assembly out... and discovered that a major wiring harness blocks it from coming free. So if anyone knows a trick to getting it out so we can put in the automatic pedal assembly... without doing a bunch of wiring, please let me know!



Oh, that's the orientation of the parking brake on Covettes.

I've done two auto to stick swaps and had that problem. There's a gusset you can cut with (I think) tin snips, then bend it aside. Once done that allows you to move the harness (just barely) out of the way of the pedal box.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-17-2019).]

Trinten MSG #450, 09-17-2019 06:39 PM
      Thanks Will! I'll see if we can do that.

La Fiera, I don't know if he is or not, I do not want to put words in his mouth. I can only suggest you reach out to him.


shemdogg MSG #451, 09-17-2019 11:53 PM
      Very very cool! Im sure the turbo will be fun, good call on the interior- looks great! I got some carpet for mine off of ebay for $30, fit pretty good. I used some of the foil insulation from home depot underneath.

Shem


Chug MSG #452, 09-22-2019 03:08 PM
      Trinten, you know of those wheels don't fit your car I know a certain Blazer that they would look really good on I'm glad those shelves are going to get some use for "What's in the Box" mysteries!!! Let me know when you are ready for the next set. Maybe you won't get a wonky set this time!

Chug


Trinten MSG #453, 09-22-2019 03:58 PM
      LOL, thanks Chug.

When Chug was here and we were moving stuff around to clear the area for the shelves, there were numerous Rockauto boxes... some still sealed. A few, I could tell by weight/size what was in them. But some had been there for so long, I didn't know anymore. It became a joke, at first he would say "What's in this box?" and it was a fairly serious question, gradually his inflection changed and the intensity of the question spiked, to "Se7en" levels. It was funny.

As I've been putting my new shelving to use... I have found the following.

1. An extra refurbished Fiero A/C compressor (another one is already at Mikes).

2. A brand new roll of the same 1/4 inch sound deadener that I just recently used (paperwork was still in the box. I bought that about 6 years ago. Originally bought two rolls. A partial roll was left in there, too.

3. Eight feet of 2.5 inch stainless steel tube, left over from the exhaust work done around 2012.

4. Two complete sets of spark plugs for my Town Car (it looks like it was on closeouts... I bought a lot of Town Car stuff that was on closeout, ball joints, brake pads, main bearings, gaskets galore, crankshaft seal, valve stem seals, spark plug boots.... I have enough to just about rebuild the engine in that car).

5. 4 NGK Iridium zfr6fix-11 6441 spark plugs... I looked these up on Summit, no car I've ever owned took these. I remember once someone giving me a box of odds-and-ends car stuff. This must have been in there.

6. A remanf. stock Fiero Alternator ( I think).

7. My holley carb that was on the original V8 engine in my Fiero.

Anyhow. The upside is - excluding some moving boxes which I'm relatively certain what's in those, I've unpacked (or at least identified) what's in all the various boxes in my garage, and have consolidated the bulk of it to the plastic bins.

I need to buy more bins.

Going to put up some odds and ends in the mall soon, and on craigslist. lol

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 09-22-2019).]

Trinten MSG #454, 10-30-2019 08:29 PM
      Okay! It's been a while, I have some updates.

The easy stuff first. As Mike dug into the wiring (messy crap from the aftermarket stereo and speakers, radio harness), I traced and removed the wiring that was left from the aftermarket alarm system. It was pretty amateur. Twisted together and bound with electrical tape. Nothing was even soldered. Mike said that some shops will even do crap installs like that because it's fast.



While on the topic of speakers - I went to put in the new 5.25" speakers that Crutchfield said would fit the B-Pillars, they even recommended a set of adapters. The adapters didn't quite work as intended. Some of the holes are cut almost like they're for keyholes, but not orientated right. This is NOT the final setup. I'll try to find a screw with a 'shoulder' so I can get rid of the washer, or trim it down, on the side with the shroud.

My question is... does anyone know if the B Pillar cover will fit properly over the speaker if I leave it's shroud on like this???





With that shroud, I'm guessing it adds almost 2 inches to the width. Because it extends past the adapter, I'm guessing it won't fit under the pillar. Thoughts?

On the other side, I removed the shroud... admittedly by dropping the speaker when trying to get it out of the plastic. It looks like it fits better. BUT I had to put washers between the back of the speaker and the adapter plate, or the adapter flexed and wouldn't mount flush to the b-pillar!!



Should I (more carefully) remove the shroud on the first one and set it up like this?


Onto other things!


Mike had me get a particular type of wiring harness connector - two sets of them, one for the front firewall and the back. They are pretty nifty, you pin them, wire them, and they press together and have a screw-down sleeve. Plus, they fit almost perfectly int his space! With a rubber grommet, they'll be snug.



I also pulled out the brake pedal from one of Mike's other Fiero's and installed it in mine, and put back the S10 brake booster.






Mike has been busy doing mock-ups and modifying things. My awesome new radiator had to be tweaked, and will require one more tweak. The filler cap made it SLIGHTLY too tall, and it wouldn't clear the hood. He had a small piece of aluminum that was the right thickness, but had two small holes in it. He filled in those holes, removed the filler cap, and welded it over. He also modified the lower tube to clear the sway bar so it can connect up easily.



We also discovered that the windshield washer tank on the 84s are smaller than the 87. I might get one of these to buy us a little more space.




Mike has planned out where the EHPS pump will go (he used my idea of bracketing it to the steering rack and having the reservoir come up through the new "floor" he's making).
Where the battery will go (we're forgoing the under-the-passenger-light idea).
And roughly how big the water tank for the intercooler will be.

I also found I need to get some more of this foam stuff to go around the vents before the new dash goes in --- anyone have any suggestions on where I can get this?




And lastly... the darn carpet!! I tried to make "relief cuts" so it would fit flush/better around the compound curves and such... I'm just really not happy with it. The passenger side is not nearly as bad as the driver side. I'm trying to find an auto-interior place that will come out to the car and either fix my mess, or just install a new set of carpet. I'm leaning towards a new set. I'm also sad that the molding on the floor was not as good as the pictures on ACC's website.

[This message has been edited by Trinten (edited 10-30-2019).]

Amida (robert.kusakabe@comcast.net) MSG #455, 11-10-2019 01:11 PM
      You can flatten the carpet by either glue down to the floor insulation or glue 3/8" insulation padding to the back side.


Trinten MSG #456, 11-10-2019 02:41 PM
      Thanks Amida! I did try using jute from the old carpet to 'bolster up' the dips in the floor pan... the results were so-so.

I ultimately decided that it was insane to put all this effort and top-quality parts into a Fiero with a carpet that didn't look it's best. To that end, I asked Mike if we could arrange our attack plan in the following order:

1. Finish up the stuff under the hood (updates on that below with pictures! And maybe some jokes! Maybe not! I haven't typed it up yet!)
2. Finish the rear suspension so the car can sit on it's wheels and be rolled around.
2a. Maybe also finish wiring repairs and modifications now, too.
4. We'll trailer the car to a professional auto-upholstery place and have them put in a new carpet. I have found one and let them know I'd like them to do it same day, so we'll coordinate with them.
5. Start finish mechanical work in engine compartment
6. Awesome new interior goes in last (less risk of any damage or staining to the leather this way).

With the weather getting colder, and days getting shorter, working in Mike's driveway is gonna be tougher. So next weekend he is planning on finishing up another customers GNX clone (he was waiting on axles to show up), so that can be rolled out of that garage bay, and we can move my car in there. His garage has a heater and ample lighting, so it'll make working on it easier.

Recently Mike has been focusing on stuff under the hood and coolant tubes running under the car, while I finished goofing around with the new B-Pillar speakers.

I grabbed a stock B pillar and fit it in the car, and checked around on all sides, (and through the glass in the back), and it appears it'll clear around the speaker with it's "shroud" in place. When we go to put the interior in and get to the B-Pillars, we'll use this stocker as our test fit, as I don't want to risk damaging any clips on my leather-wrapped ones with a test fit that might need to come back out.

So here is what the new speakers look like:



Mike discovered that the coolant tube on the driver side had been crushed (we all know how that happened). Since these tubs have been empty for so long, he wormed the coolant tube out, cut out the crushed portion, had some aluminum of the right wall thickness and I.D., and welded it in place.









Mike is a master fabricator, so the weld bead was awesomely done, and not all "globbed" inside of the tube. I couldn't get a good picture.

On the topic of cooling... he is selling me one of his old air-to-water intercoolers. It's a Spearco unit.



This thing is a monster. I want to say it was around 12x12x6. The reservoir he's going to put up front is going to hold around 4-5 gallons of water, and have a big enough neck to drop ice into.

He's still thinking about a solution for the tubs to go from the intercooler to it's reservoir. his first one was a double-box tube - super resistant to damage, but have to powdercoat it to protect against rust, and heat transfer from the tubes being side-to-side.

For transmission coolant lines,he had me buy copper-nickel tubing, so I'd never (reasonably) need to worry about rust.

We did finish mocking up the radiator hoses. I apparently only took a picture of the lower side test fit.



"Do you know what tool a fabricator can never have too many of?" "No?" "Vice grips."



That above picture is the frame to the "removable floorpan" that'll be under the hood. It will bolt in place. That box with all the vice grips is where the battery tray will be attached. You can see the outside part of that frame in other pictures, as it's been installed for test fitting things for a while.

Speaking of test fitting! We connected the Z06 power steering cooler to the EHPS pump. The hose that came with the cooler was the correct size for that return connection. Originally, that connection was turned about 45 degrees to the left. Mike loosened the metal band (screw/worm style), and after making sure the reservoir for the power steering unit wasn't "keyed", he very carefully clocked it to where he wanted it, with the comment of "You are so lucky. Usually when people get into doing crazy mods like this, there's a lot more obstacles. The way this is all going together, it's almost like it was made for it."

He was commenting not just on the clockable part, but that the mounting points of the pump lined up with mounting points on the power steering rack, and cleared my brake booster!



When the "floor" up there goes in, it will have a cut-out that the reservoir will peek up partially through it, to allow easy checking and filling if necessary.

Mike also had me get a brake proportioning valve. Since we were doing brake lines up front, I brought over an unopened 25' spool of stainless steel 3/16ths brake line, and a partial spool of it. I've had this since 2008, when the hard line on my '94 town car blew out, and the auto shop had to hand bend/fabricate new brake lines, because prefabs weren't available anymore.

One of the original pieces we actually were able to reuse, but it looked so lousy next to the really nice new stainless, that Mike fabbed up a replacement.

Testing fitting the bracket for the valve and one of the lines:



And it's "final" assembly:




I also did manage to get an '84 Windshield washer fluid tank super cheap on ebay, so took out the higher capacity one and put this one in for now. This is to give more room for the intercooler water tank up front.



And lastly, in the back Mike finished removing the rest of the unneeded strut towers! There is SO MUCH MORE ROOM back there now! Mounting the turbo and other things don't seem to pose any problems now (it was possible before, but would have made some repairs/maintenance a pain in the butt -- and I'd like things to be accessible for just those reasons.)







I also ordered an LT1 Cruise control unit, so servo driven but doesn't need all the other inputs and such that came on some LS cruise control systems. This will be a "simple" matter of extending and matching up wires, and tapping a 4000 PPM feed to the unit (either from the speedometer or from my 0411 PCM).

Right now I'm chasing down cables and such to connect the automatic shifter to the 4T80 transmission (I started another thread on that, because I was having some trouble finding the info I needed. Thankfully a member here replied with the majority of the info I needed!).


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #457, 11-10-2019 07:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

I also did manage to get an '84 Windshield washer fluid tank super cheap on ebay, so took out the higher capacity one and put this one in for now. This is to give more room for the intercooler water tank up front.



Great find! Thanks for the info. Do you have a part number handy?

I've been thinking of ducting the radiator outflow through that area and out fender vents just in front of the doors, but the later windshield washer reservoir was in the way. A smaller one may allow that idea to work.


 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
I also ordered an LT1 Cruise control unit, so servo driven but doesn't need all the other inputs and such that came on some LS cruise control systems. This will be a "simple" matter of extending and matching up wires, and tapping a 4000 PPM feed to the unit (either from the speedometer or from my 0411 PCM).


Try this:
https://www.eficonnection.com/

The '09 Trailblazer OS (58x trigger wheel) allows the cruise control stalk switches to be directly wired to the PCM. Since that app uses a drive by wire throttle, that completely eliminates any need for a cruise servo.



Trinten MSG #458, 11-10-2019 09:49 PM
      Thanks Will,

I'll check it out... and then send it to Mike to let me know how he wants to execute it. lol

And yes! The part number is 22039456. Above that on the tank it says 22048531 / ASM.

Strangely, when searching for that I was still getting some "full sized" washer tanks, but it's pretty easy to spot which one it is if there is a picture.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #459, 11-11-2019 11:49 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Thanks Will,

I'll check it out... and then send it to Mike to let me know how he wants to execute it. lol


You're using an 0411 PCM with LS coils on a traditional small block.
Looks like you're using the Vortec timing cover with internal trigger wheel, with some type of cam-synch only distributor. You *should* just have to swap from a 24x trigger to a 58x trigger, and maybe a cam sensor change to be able to use the 58x PCMs. Those are more advanced than the 24x PCMs.

In your shoes, I'd definitely want a 58x PCM, The 4L80E & 4L85E (and for that matter the 4T80E) were used into the 58x era, so there are 58x computers that control 4 speed auto transmissions. It's likely just a setting in software. The Buick Lucerne used the 4T80E through 2011, so the software to control it is out there.


 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:
And yes! The part number is 22039456. Above that on the tank it says 22048531 / ASM.

Strangely, when searching for that I was still getting some "full sized" washer tanks, but it's pretty easy to spot which one it is if there is a picture.


Thanks! I'll keep an eye out.


Trinten MSG #460, 11-11-2019 08:37 PM
      Thanks Will,

I'll have to check with FieroGuru on his selection of parts. I'm sure at one point he told me (when he was working on it, he was awesome about sending super detailed PMs with pictures and stuff, above and beyond what he put in the thread). I want to understand why he went with these parts to start with, so when I pass all this info along to Mike, he knows why things were done originally.

Oh! I did start doing some research on the issue you were warning me about with 2nd gear starts on the 4T80. There are two solutions, once involves programming, and the other involves some tweaking of the wiring that I don't fully understand - it talked about how the ABS/TCS would send a ground to one of the solenoids to cause the 2nd gear shifts, and explained how to adjust the wiring so that never happens. Thank you for warning me about it!


fieroguru MSG #461, 11-11-2019 09:42 PM
      At the time, EFI Connection didn't offer the 58X version, but they now do:
https://www.eficonnection.c...cam-sync-distributor

Vince, you should give them a call and let them know you already have the 24X kit and ask what it would take to upgrade to the 58X. The reluctor wheel should be a simple swap, the critical part would be the timing/trigger point for the 1X cam sensor. If the 1X timing point is in the same spot, then you are likely good. If it changes between the 24X and 58X then you would have to be very careful and likely rework the bracket locking down the distributor position. There isn't much room for the distributor housing to rotate and clear the relocated IAC... everything under the TB is very, very tight.






ericjon262 MSG #462, 11-12-2019 02:49 AM
      58x means DBW throttle, which also means no IAC.

fieroguru MSG #463, 11-12-2019 01:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

58x means DBW throttle, which also means no IAC.


Good catch!

Vince, if you go this route, you will want to explore making one of the DBW throttle bodies work.


Trinten MSG #464, 11-12-2019 07:35 PM
      Okay. I'll talk it over with Mike. DBW also means swapping out the gas pedal, some other wiring, and finding a newer style cruise control unit.

ericjon262 MSG #465, 11-12-2019 07:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Okay. I'll talk it over with Mike. DBW also means swapping out the gas pedal, some other wiring, and finding a newer style cruise control unit.


actually, you wire brake switch and cruise signals direct to the PCM and it does the rest for you, no module required.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #466, 11-13-2019 09:24 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Thanks Will,

I'll have to check with FieroGuru on his selection of parts. I'm sure at one point he told me (when he was working on it, he was awesome about sending super detailed PMs with pictures and stuff, above and beyond what he put in the thread). I want to understand why he went with these parts to start with, so when I pass all this info along to Mike, he knows why things were done originally.

Oh! I did start doing some research on the issue you were warning me about with 2nd gear starts on the 4T80. There are two solutions, once involves programming, and the other involves some tweaking of the wiring that I don't fully understand - it talked about how the ABS/TCS would send a ground to one of the solenoids to cause the 2nd gear shifts, and explained how to adjust the wiring so that never happens. Thank you for warning me about it!


The 2nd gear starts are an issue unique to the Cadillac PCM when it's removed from the Cadillac... you shouldn't need to worry about that with the 0411


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #467, 11-13-2019 09:29 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Okay. I'll talk it over with Mike. DBW also means swapping out the gas pedal, some other wiring, and finding a newer style cruise control unit.


 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

actually, you wire brake switch and cruise signals direct to the PCM and it does the rest for you, no module required.


Exactly... that's why DBW is such a game changer for engine swaps, as well as why OEMs use it.

Yes, you have to install a pedal sensor and wire it up.

But then you do NOT have to:
-Run/adapt a throttle cable (which may be the wrong length or have inconvenient routing, not have a clean attachment to the throttle cam, etc.)
-Have (find, adapt, mount, wire) a cruise servo
-Have (find, adapt, mount, plumb, wire) an IAC

So overall the system is simpler with DBW. The cruise also works MUCH better with DBW, as there's no delay waiting for the cruise servo to take tension on the throttle mechanism and the pedal doesn't move while the cruise adjusts the throttle.

There ARE dual round and oval mono-blade DBW throttles that bolt up in place of LT1 and TPI throttles.

However, you do need to select your OS carefully in order to reap these benefits. MOST 58x OS's get cruise data from the BCM. However, the '09 Trailblazer (dunno why it's just this app, but whatevs) has the cruise switches wired directly to the ECM instead of the BCM. This is the one to use.

ALSO, the 58x system splits the PCM into separate ECM and TCM... Running the 4T80E may be as simple as wiring up a 4T80E TCM (Buick Lucerne as mentioned above) to your 58x ECM of choice, then tuning the shift points in software.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-13-2019).]