LS4 / F40 swap - fieroguru
Topic started by: fieroguru, Date: 12-13-2010 01:34 PM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000123.html


fieroguru MSG #1, 12-13-2010 01:34 PM
      I am far from the first to install an LS4 into a Fiero and have used the following threads for reference material:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000087.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000114.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000115.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/095910.html

All the completed LS4 swaps to date have been installed in a mostly stock configuration with the 4T65E-HD automatic transmission. For my swap the LS4 engine will have several performance upgrades and use the F40 6 speed manual transmission.

It all starts with a donor engine, so in late May/Early June 2010, I found a LS4 drivetrain from a 2007 Impala SS with 18K miles listed on LS1tech… a couple days later my wallet is $1000 lighter and this was taking up space in the garage:





During the research phase, I quickly realized that while 303hp in stock form isn’t a slouch, it seemed GM outfitted the LS4 with good heads and compression but with smaller/more restrictive intake and exhaust components than the other RWD LS(x) applications. If it made 303 hp with all these restrictions, I was curious to see what would happen when all these restrictive components are removed/upgraded.

So I spend some time figuring out what was different on the LS4 vs. the RWD LS(x) engines going component by component and compiled the following list of planned performance upgrades:
**LS4 78mm MAF upgraded to 85mm MAF
**LS4 76mm DBW throttle body upgrade to 90mm LS2 DBW throttle body
**LS4 76mm Intake manifold upgraded to 90mm LS2 Intake manifold and matching LS2 fuel rail
**LS4 28lb injectors upgrade to 34lb LS2 injectors (came with the fuel rail)
**LS4 stock camshaft (197/197 .286/.286 @ 114LSA upgraded to a 224/231 .332/.338 @ 113 lsa (some will say this is too big…)
**LS4 stock exhaust manifolds upgraded to LS7 hydro formed exhaust manifolds

These upgrades should do wonders to help the LS4 pump some air and make some power. All these upgrade components except the camshaft were purchased used off LS1tech.com or Ebay to help keep the upgrade costs down, but in total they were still higher than the initial engine purchase. Here are some pictures between the stock and upgraded hardware….

LS4 78mm MAF on the left and the 85mm MAF on the right. Both are 5 wire MAFs, but use different connectors.


LS4 76mm DBW throttle body on the left and the 90mm LS2 DBW throttle body on the right. The LS4 throttle body is an 8 wire setup whereas the LS2 is a 6 wire connector.


LS4 Intake manifold on the left and the LS2 Intake manifold and matching LS2 fuel rail on the right. Now some will say I should have used the LS6 intake because it flows better than the LS2, but the LS2 is a great improvement over the LS4, is cheaper than the LS6, and is better “looking” than the LS6 intake...



LS4 cast iron exhaust manifolds upgraded to LS7 hydro formed exhaust manifolds. What can I say, the LS7 manifolds are very nice looking, come factory on a 505hp engine, are hydro formed stainless steel with integrated heat shields and can be had for about $125… I just had to try them. They may cost me some low end torque (as well as the cam), but that is something most V8 Fieros have in excess anyway.



In addition to the focus on improving performance, the overall look of this install will be of paramount importance. I have never been a fan of engine or coil covers… so this install will not have any of those… just a simple, clean LS4/F40 install.

LS4/F40 Build Thread Table of Contents:

Pg1: Start Mount, flywheel discussion, mods for LS2 intake swap, coil relocation bracket, test fit in engine bay, DoD camshaft swap, cradle crossmember replacement, engine/transmission mounts and water pump modifications, fuel filter/regulator.

Pg2: Alternator and A/C relocation, belt tensioner, fabricating front engine/accessory mount, second test fit with water pump mods and air intake tube.

Pg3: Mock up of Saab intermediate shaft and exhaust manifolds, mounting tabs for engine/transmission mounts on the cradle – all drivetrain mounts fabricated, mock up turned down LS1 flywheel (could use for Getrag or F23 LS4 swap), experiment with 9 7/8” clutch from 3000GT-VR4, pictures of button head madness, modified SBC aluminum flywheel for LS4 application and 3000GT-VR4 clutch.

Pg4: Modified flywheel and 3000GT-VR4 clutch interfered with the differential bulge – aborted that part of the project, modified the LS7 exhaust manifolds and started fabricating the exhaust, started looking at another 9 7/8” clutch from a 4.0L Ford Ranger, purchased chunk of 6061 aluminum for custom flywheel, relocated factory frame notch on the driver side rail ¾” to the rear, modify cradle/crossmembers for better muffler clearance.

Pg5: Purchased a Spec Stage 4+ clutch for a 4.0L Ford Ranger, another test fit in the chassis for the exhaust, custom flywheel turned, milled, and assembled, disassembled harness LS4 harness.

Pg 6: Mockup of a RWD LS water pump, fabricated exhaust support brackets, fabricated brackets to use 88 front springs in the 88 rear suspension, rough measurements of flywheel/clutch combo shared, continued work on accessory/front engine mount, SF964F clutch arrived, accessory drive comparison stock vs. new setup, oil pressure sender, 3 wire temp sender, started looming some of the harness starting with the engine sensors, axle length mockup and discussion, started modifying the Saab intermediate shaft.

Pg 7: Continued work on intermediate shaft lengthening, decklid hinge box removal and hinge modification, swap ends on DS G6 axle for use on PS, test fit modified tripod and Corsica axle for the DS axle, 4 speed shifter mod for the F40 conversion and fabricate shifter bracket on transmission, welded and smoothed DS frame rail notch relocation, smooth firewall panel fabrication and installation, intermediate shaft bearing support.

Pg 8: Mockup coolant hoses, tear down for painting of fabricated parts, sanding/smoothing of engine bay, clean up garage for customer car, clutch comparison fiero Spec Stage 3+ to Ranger Spec Stage 4+, some pictures of the SBC/Getrag customer swap, discussion about DoD, pictures of 4.3 swap I was working on as well.

Pg 9: SBC/Getrag startup video, pictures of LS4 oil pan and discussion about DoD delete, R&D 13” brake kit for the 88 Fieros.

Pg 10: Back working on LS4, installed new timing chain tensioner, assembled painted parts, mock up of modified SBC water pump (from 4.3 swap) on the LS4, SBC harmonic balancer comparison, pictures of 13” brake kit brackets and rings and rotors, longer flywheel bolts, flywheel installation with some overall dimensions, Spec Stage 4+ clutch installation, corner weights for the engine/transmission on the cradle.

Pg 11: Cut up a parts car, mock up some coilovers for the 88 front suspension, wheel fitment measurements, 4 ¾” rear wheel bearing modification, rod end lateral link upgrade, lateral link relocation bracket development.

Pg 12: Switched from the blue 88 GT Clone chassis to the 88 Black/Yellow Notchie, drill 88 front wheel bearings for 5 x 4 ¾” pattern, lateral link relocation kit launched, mockup some 17/18 corvette wheels and verify clearance issues, pull rear suspension in 1 5/8” to fit a 18 x 10.5 wheel under the stock body panels, relocate the top of the strut 1” inboard, clean up engine bay on new chassis and move frame notch and install modified decklid hinges, pickup another 88 GT clone for a DD, buy a house and move everything, drawing for LS4 to LS2 throttle body adapter, mount ECM, start harness work again, fab up A/C lines, mockup plug wires.

Pg 13: Work on MAF, muffler heat shield, plug wires, plastic air intake, more harness work, heat shield for A/C lines, catch can installation, PCV routing, wiring diagrams for 88 Fiero w/ LS4/F40 and E67 ECM, DBW pedal installation, 500 connector harness relocation, fuel tank vent mod, fuel filter installation, HTOB connector to fiero line, F40 factory transmission fluid.

Pg 14: 4” cold air intake fabrication, A/C hose ferrules, interior harness wiring, Dyna-BATT battery relocation, fabricate hard coolant lines and rubber hose routing, Champion radiator installation.

Pg 15: Champion radiator installation, battery relocation, coil air intake coating, heater hose connection to water pump, smooth firewall panel mockup, coolant hose mockup, smooth/sand engine bay, paint engine bay and smooth firewall panel and hinges, reinstall drivetrain (last time).

Pg 16: rework coolant hard lines, power up ecm and work on base tune, debug DBW issue, first start of LS4/F40, work on Range selector codes.

Pg 17: Install clutch switch, install C4 vette seats, fabricate laptop stand, modify rear struts for coil overs, paint rear suspension parts, install front hood support for rear decklid support, modify calipers to fit 13” rotors under 16” wheels, install 13” brake kit, trim front bump stops, install front Koni shocks, move car out of garage under its own power, fixed Tach issue, debug belt squealing issue – replaced water pump and rebuilt alternator.

Pg 18: Work on electric fan settings, calibrated speedo, changed belts and eliminated the belt squeal, video of driving the car, replaced burnt plug wire (boot was not properly seated), installed the stock LS4 injectors and fuel rail, more work on the Range Switch code, continue tuning the car.

Pg 19: Cleaned the tank of rust, installed new fuel pump and filter/regulator, couple more videos of revving the engine and driving the car, decibel readings for the car, invisible hood vent modification.

Pg 20: Upgraded to larger air filter and installed LS7 MAF, installed VW 6 speed shifter knob, plasti-dipped over the yellow paint, swapped to a non-sunroof panel and painted it black.

Pg 21: Installed sound deadening material to doors, firewall and roof, fixed mirrors and door panels, installed smooth sail panels, broke belt tensioner, installed FJF springs up front, installed lateral link relocation brackets, pulled down 29.3 mpg on first interstate trip.

Pg 22: Corner weighed the car, dyno’d the car, customer’s SBC/F23 car arrived for rework, plans for new garage.

Pg 23: Mounted fire extinguisher, Took the car to LS Fest and ran ¼ mile, autocross & 3S with it, video of autocross, broke shift cable, pictures of F40 shifter assembly removed from transmission.

Pg 24:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-21-2014).]

fieroguru MSG #2, 12-13-2010 02:01 PM
      It all starts with the starter…

Since the LS4 never had a starter provision on the engine side, the F40 needed a starter provision on the tranny side. Nothing like cutting a hole in a brand new transmission… but it needed to be done. Using the 4T65E-HD, a fixture was mocked up so the starter pad shape and location could be transferred to the F40. Then it was a matter of removing enough aluminum on the F40 to allow the new starter mount to be properly positioned. End result is a bolt on starter mount for the F40 transmission that will spin the LS4.







Fire In The Hole!!!



nosrac MSG #3, 12-13-2010 02:15 PM
      Did you use an adapter plate to mate the F40 to the LS4 or does it bolt right up?

fieroguru MSG #4, 12-13-2010 02:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by nosrac:

Did you use an adapter plate to mate the F40 to the LS4 or does it bolt right up?


The LS4 bolts directly to the F40, no adapter plate needed.


mera7 (okiemom777@aol.com) MSG #5, 12-13-2010 02:34 PM
      very nice guru... as always your threads are very informative. keep up the good work

dobey MSG #6, 12-13-2010 02:43 PM
      Cool. You finally made a thread for it.

mera7 (okiemom777@aol.com) MSG #7, 12-13-2010 03:05 PM
      guru... does the f40 and the new 2010 cobalt f23 getrags have the same engine bolt pattern? do you know? thanks.

fieroguru MSG #8, 12-13-2010 03:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mera7:

guru... does the f40 and the new 2010 cobalt f23 getrags have the same engine bolt pattern? do you know? thanks.


I assume the cobalt uses the Ecotec for all engine levels... if that is the case, then no the F40 and the ecotec F23 do not have the same bellhousing. The F40 uses the GM Metric FWD pattern common with the fiero Getrag, Isuzu, Muncie, 125C, 4T60 and 4T65


carbon MSG #9, 12-13-2010 03:14 PM
      No. Cobalts have the Ecotec pattern. The LS4 has the same corporate metric pattern as the Fiero.

Well, how was I supposed to know guru was hovering... LOL

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 12-13-2010).]

fieroguru MSG #10, 12-13-2010 03:51 PM
      Another significant hindrance is the flywheel for a couple of reasons. Since I am keeping the stock LS4 starter position, I must keep the LS4 142 tooth ring gear (11.9” diameter). All available RWD manual flywheels for the LS(x) engine family are 168 tooth (14.1” in diameter) and these will not clear the bellhousing bolt pattern, let alone fit within the transmission. The other challenge is the LS4’s crank flange is flush with the bellhousing surface and all RWD LS(x) engines have the flange protruding into the bellhousing. So the LS4 will also need a thicker flywheel than its RWD counterparts as well as the F40 needing a thicker flywheel due to its design around a dual mass flywheel.

So the LS4/F40 combo will require a relatively small diameter flywheel (under 12”) that is approximately 2.0” thick… Unfortunately, I have not been able to find a stock flywheel with these criteria.

There are 3 flywheel solutions as I see it…

**Full bore custom aluminum flywheel… probably cost you about $600 - $750.
**Turn down a stock LS1 flywheel to accept the 142 tooth ring gear, drill it for the Fiero pressure plate pattern, then use the Archie F40 spacer plate for the 2.8 V6. The LS1 flywheel on the LS4 has the same “approximate depth” into the bellhousing as a stock 2.8 V6, so if the spacer works on a 2.8, it should work for the LS4 as well.
**Hybrid approach… which is what I did. LS4 flexplate, .400” LS(x) crankshaft spacer (off the shelf item for under $50) and a highly modified aluminum flywheel from a C4 LT1/ZF6 application. The end result is a 14 lb flywheel assembly that is about 1.95” thick.

Here is the LS4 flex plate sitting on top of a 86+ SBC flex plate. You can see the difference in the hole locations.


C4 LT1/ZF6 Fidenza aftermarket flywheel (picked up used). It is quite thick and has a removable balance plate on the back side to restore the flywheel to neutral balance. It is also very open on the back side to reduce overall weight, but also made the outer rim too small to support the 142 tooth ring gear.



Flex plate, spacer and modified flywheel. It weighs 14 lbs as an assembly:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-13-2010).]

mera7 (okiemom777@aol.com) MSG #11, 12-13-2010 05:09 PM
      so the ls4 has the same bolt pattern as a fiero getrag?

fieroguru MSG #12, 12-13-2010 05:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mera7:

so the ls4 has the same bolt pattern as a fiero getrag?


Yes:


From my perspective, there are benefits and drawbacks to the LS4...
Benefits:
1: It comes with the FWD metric pattern and will physically bolt to a fiero transmission w/o any need for an adapter plate (but you have the starter issue).
2: Since it does not come with the RWD/SBC patten, they can be had dirt cheap compared to the other aluminum block LS(x) engines (try finding an 18K mile LS1/LS2/LS3 complete with tranny for $1000).
3: They come with the 243 heads which are the best stock cathedral port heads.
4: The accessory drive is more compact... but far from perfect.
5: It is a DoD engine and the 2007+ engines with the 58 tooth cranks can be retrofitted with VVT cam phasers.

Downsides:
1: Stepchild of the LS(x) family with minimal aftermarket support.
2: No starter provision on the engine.
3: No factory manual transmission application.
4: DoD limits camshaft choices and complicates the intake swap options (and without a better intake, a cam upgrade is pretty much a waste)
5: Accessory drive is overly complicated and makes alternator placement an issue.
6: It is only 5.3L
7: Engine is ugly w/o the engine cover.


fieroguru MSG #13, 12-13-2010 06:16 PM
      This swap needs to look good without any engine covers… so first thing that needs to go is the LS4 intake… it is just ugly (and a restriction). Now while the LS2 intake isn’t as good as the LS6 one, it has very clean lines for use without any covers.

The problem is the LS2 intake will not fit the stock LS4 DoD valley cover without major clearance work (it fits just fine with some minor work when used with non-DoD valley covers - Archie’s swaps do this all the time). Even with the OPSU boss cut down about 1/2" in this picture, you can see the valley cover needs to come down another 3/8" to be able to fit... this is going to take some work.

First thing under the knife was the connector. Right behind the flange for the connector, I gently cut through the plastic and eventually was able to pry the end off exposing the 5 terminals:


Call me finicky... but I wanted to know the OEM wire colors for this connection so the new wires (recycled from other GM harnesses) can match.

New wires (about 24" in length - way too long) soldered to the appropriate terminals:

Heat shrink x2:



Now back to the OPSU - it will be relocated entirely. I had already cut it down about 1/2" and cut it down another 3/8" to expose the oil passage while still leaving material to drill a new oil passage.

New oil passage:

Then the top side of the OPSU boss was welded up to close up the passages. Here is a finished pic of the welded OPSU and the modified connector:



Sadly, the LS2 intake still isn't going to accept installation without modifying the intake.
Lower ribs flattened and the area of the connector and OPSU was cut open (this also give me room for the vent upgrade):


But now it can be installed w/o interference:


Patch panel fabricated to seal the hole:



This patch panel was glued in place inside and out.

Just because I thought they would look better, I cut the intake manifold bold bosses down about 1”

I have a sickness for stainless steel button heads and even at this shorter length, they just do not exist in the proper length/thread... so I made some using some other metric stainless steel button heads. Drilled the center, cut the OEM bolts the proper length, pressed them into the bottom of the button heads, weld then together, grind off the excess...



Even have button heads for the fuel rail and throttle body:


The last intake manifold modification was to bend the stock LS2 fuel rail so the fuel line will not cross over the valve cover (like the stock LS4) and then bent the original LS4 fuel line to go down the end of the head and exit down low away from the exhaust.

In this picture you can see where the OPSU was relocated - drilled/tapped the oil passage below the valley cover:


One last upgrade while the intake is off…
I plan to wail on this engine once installed and it might see some NO2 at some point, so I went ahead and installed the 4 corner vent setup from a 6.0L truck just to ensure cylinders 7&8 have the best chance for equal cooling.

It took some slight bending of the lines to route them around all the raised bosses and oil passages and I bent the exit tube to be vertical so it clears the intake. 2 bolt bosses for the DoD stuff under the cover needed cut down, but not far enough to touch the bolts. Some RTV should seal them back up. The bottom corner of the LS2 intake (the triangle part that rests between the heads and the valled cover) needed about 1/2" trimmed from it at the corner to clear the tube in the upper right hand corner of the picture. But now it fits!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-13-2010).]

fieroguru MSG #14, 12-13-2010 06:38 PM
      The other significant beautification modification was to do something with the unsightly coil arrangement and collection of wires over the valve covers (valve covers are to be seen, not covered). After some disassembly and brainstorming, the LS4 coils fit together quite nicely when mounted with some off the shelf spacers from Lowes:

Then it was a matter of determining where on the engine this more compact coil pack could be positioned. Had I used headers, along the oil pan would have made them disappear all together, but since the LS7 manifolds do not have room for the plug wires to come from underneath, I settled on this area:

Some 1/8” scrap plate and a little fabrication and I had these:




The really nice part about the coils being in this location is all the harness connectors point down to the bellhousing area, so the harness will be mostly hidden from view.

Once the coils were off the valve covers, it was time to cut down the bosses, weld up the holes and smooth everything to get a nice clean look.

Here is good inspirational shot of the intake, coil and valve cover work so far. The stock LS4 fuel line will pass behind the front coil pack and disappear from view. The only wiring that will need to be on top of the intake will be for the injectors and those will be ran under the fuel rails out of sight as well.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-13-2010).]

mera7 (okiemom777@aol.com) MSG #15, 12-13-2010 06:41 PM
      once again... very nice work guru.

fieroguru MSG #16, 12-13-2010 06:55 PM
      The LS4/F40 combo is somewhat misleading in how much room most would think there would be to install. Truth of the matter is the LS4/F40 combo is a very tight fit with the factory water pump and an unmodified 88 cradle. My mockup chassis has bolt in hinge boxes, so I left them out for this test fit. That is the only deviation from a 100% stock 88 engine bay (other than the battery tray). The elevation and engine placement in the pictures is dictated by clearance issues in several areas. Once these clearance issues are addressed the engine placement/elevation could be moved around a little more.

Overall engine bay view :


The crankshaft centerline is about 9 1/8" from the bottom of the 88 cradle (height was dictated by clearance issues, but with some modification it can go lower):


Another reference to elevation is this measurement from the flat top of the strut towers to top most portion of the valve cover:


On the engine side of things there are clearance issues with...
Oil fill with dog bone bracket:


Water pump bolt with strut tower:


Idler bracket with strut tower and balancer to passenger frame rail:



Coolant fill with hinge box and front idler with firewall:


Oil pan and engine mount bracket on cradle (this and the tranny to frame rail dictated the engine elevation to clear everything):


Oil filter to front cradle cross member:


Front exhaust manifold to the double firewall section:


Oil pan to bottom of cradle (about 1"):


Moving on to the transmission side of things:
Tranny to driver side frame rail (it is touching):


Tranny to the cradle side rails (notice my shim to level the engine/tranny - this will be the elevation limiter before the bottom of the cradle):


Other important dimensions:
Valve cover to rear firewall = 2 3/16"
C/L crank to C/L of front cradle bolt = 15 5/8 (measured horizontal, not angular)
Bell housing face is offset 5 1/4" from the cradle centerline to the driver side

Here is a good comparison between the axle centerlines locations between the F40 and the 4T65. The elevation is pretty close, the F40's axle is close to 2" closer to the engine than the 4T65:


As you can see in the pictures where the engine is sitting is dictated front to back by the idler pulley to firewall & Oil filter to cradle in the front and idler pulley to strut tower clearance to the rear. Side to side placement is tranny to DS frame rail on the left and water pump bolt to the strut tower on the right. Elevation is dictated by the stock cradle engine mount to oil pan interference.

Moving the engine forward will gain more clearance side to side and to the rear of the engine. This is what all the LS4/4T65 swaps done to date have done by notching the cradle for the oil filter and relocating the front idler back an inch or two. Removal of the stock engine mount on the cradle will allow the engine to lower about 1/2" and to go any lower would require some work to the tranny case or cradle side rail.


qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #17, 12-13-2010 07:18 PM
      Great looking build. Next spring/summer I plan to do some "cleaning" of my LS3 too.

I love your clean install.

The coil reloc kit i'll be using is here. http://www.automotivedesign...ducts/coil_pack.html

I have to go with this, because I don't have access to welding equipment.

Keep it up, this is my new favorite thread.

Rob


mera7 (okiemom777@aol.com) MSG #18, 12-14-2010 03:34 AM
      my favorite thread as well.

fieroguru MSG #19, 12-14-2010 08:31 AM
      When it came to the camshaft, there were a few options I considered:

1: Ditch all the DoD stuff and run any LS(x) cam I wanted… lots of work and cost to replace the lifters, oil pump, valley cover, etc, and the heads have to come off… which always leads to more upgrades. Downside/Upside is you lose DoD… but have an near endless selection of camshafts to pick from.

2: Stock LS4 cam (193/193 .283/.283 @ 114lsa – Non DoD lobes) with 1.80 or 1.85 rockers – this is the least expensive and simplest approach, but gains would be minimal (10-20hp). Several LS4 guys have done this on LS1 tech.

3: Stock G8 cam (197/207 .278/.282 – non DoD lobes) with 1.80 or 1.85 rockers. Slightly more expensive than the using the stock cam and requires a camshaft swap, but provides more duration vs. stock LS4 and was a factory DoD camshaft. Probably would result in a slight improvement vs. the stock cam and rockers, bust still very mild.

4: Go with a much larger DoD compatible aftermarket camshaft… this is the route I took. This camshaft was designed for DoD and comes with the springs, pushrods, chain tensioner… only downside is they would not tell me the specs. The one guy on LS1 tech who installed this cam and said it was big (peak power in the 6800-7000 range), probably too big, but if he could still get his 3400 lb automatic beast moving with the cam. It has also been installed in some 5.3 full size trucks… so I figured it would be OK in a 2900 lb fiero with manual transmission and a stump pulling gear ratios. This cam was advertized to provide a 54 hp increase on the 6.0L… so for better or worse I went big.

Since they would not tell me the specs… I just HAD to find out what they were, so an 18” degree wheel was added to my tool collection.


First order of business to degee the stock LS4 cam on cyl #1 (which is a DoD cylinder which might explain why my measurements are slightly different than the internet specs… I took a degree reading at .006, .050 and every .025 up to max lift up and down for intake and exhaust).
Stock LS4 camshaft specs: 197/197 .286/.286 @ 114LSA
Stock LS4 events @ .050 lobe lift:
IVO (BTDC): -18
IVC (ABDC): 35
EVO (BBDC): 31
EVC (ATDC): -14

I never confirmed the G8 stock specs… but here they are for comparison
Stock G8 DoD camshaft specs: 197/207 .278/.282
IVO (BTDC): -17
IVC (ABDC): 37
EVO (BBDC): 40
EVC (ATDC): -12

I did the same for my aftermarket camshaft and it was 224/231 .332/.338 @ 113 lsa but I also noticed it was really not what I was expecting. Here is an overlay of the two cams with the larger/wider lobes being the aftermarket one. As you can see everything was moved much later in the cycle.


So I spent quite a bit of time checking out other cams of the 224 to 230 duration, comparing where the valve events are for those camshafts and where mine were to figure out a better position in which to install the camshaft. A couple of the comparison cams are as follows:

MTI Stealth II 224/220 (everything at .050 lobe lift)
IVO (BTDC): -4
IVC (ABDC): 48
EVO (BBDC): 46
EVC (ATDC): -6

Comp Cams xer 224/230 (54-444-11 XER273HR)
IVO (BTDC): -1
IVC (ABDC): 45
EVO (BBDC): 50
EVC (ATDC): 0

After much thought and discussion with the other guy running this cam, I chose to install the came with the approximate valve events at .050” lobe lift:
IVO (BTDC): -3.5
IVC (ABDC): 47.5
EVO (BBDC): 46
EVC (ATDC): 5.5

This installed position places the new cam intake centerline right on top of the stock LS4's and pulls the IVO event back down to a more reasonable level for the 5.3 (it is still pretty high). This could be a major mistake, but only time will tell…

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-03-2011).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #20, 12-14-2010 05:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

4: Go with a much larger DoD compatible aftermarket camshaft… this is the route I took. This camshaft was designed for DoD and comes with the springs, pushrods, chain tensioner… only downside is they would not tell me the specs.


Wow... I would NOT have bought a cam from an outfit that wouldn't give me at LEAST *BASIC* info on the duration, lift and lobe sep. The fact that they do that and expect people to buy it black box is INSANE. If any outfit told me that, I'd tell them their competitor is getting my money. Holy cow. The fact that people buy it black box and just install it (without degreeing it as you've done) is even more insane. Do all the cylinders degree the same? In your shoes I would be *highly* suspect of any quality issue with that cam, from consistency of grind from lobe to lobe to material to heat treatment/surface hardness to straightness. I wonder if the outfit even knows what specs they're selling. Are your prepared to lunch your engine if that cam wipes a lobe into your oil pan? I know it's a roller, but crappy material is still crappy material.
I hope for your sake it's actually made of steel and not some tin plated lead casting out of China. Is it at least magnetic?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-14-2010).]

fieroguru MSG #21, 12-14-2010 06:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Wow... I would NOT have bought a cam from an outfit that wouldn't give me at LEAST *BASIC* info on the duration, lift and lobe sep. The fact that they do that and expect people to buy it black box is INSANE. If any outfit told me that, I'd tell them their competitor is getting my money. Holy cow. The fact that people buy it black box and just install it (without degreeing it as you've done) is even more insane. Do all the cylinders degree the same? In your shoes I would be *highly* suspect of any quality issue with that cam, from consistency of grind from lobe to lobe to material to heat treatment/surface hardness to straightness. I wonder if the outfit even knows what specs they're selling. Are your prepared to lunch your engine if that cam wipes a lobe into your oil pan? I know it's a roller, but crappy material is still crappy material.
I hope for your sake it's actually made of steel and not some tin plated lead casting out of China. Is it at least magnetic?



I had numerous conversations with this vendor prior to purchase and was able to get them to share that the intake was in the mid 220's and the exhaust was low 230's. Their argument was that they spent quite a bit of dyno time and R&D development for a DoD compatible camshafts and didn't want to advertise the specs for others to copy... While I did not like it, I also can't argue with their view point either. If they hadn't been the only DoD camshaft supplier at the time, I probably would have gone with a cam I knew the specs on.

The actual cam was manufactured by Comp Cams using their AFM cam core, so I have little concern from a manufacturing standpoint.




Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #22, 12-15-2010 08:44 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Their argument was that they spent quite a bit of dyno time and R&D development for a DoD compatible camshafts and didn't want to advertise the specs for others to copy...


While that may be true, I don't consider it a valid argument. There's *SOOO* much more to lobe design than the traditional "five number" specs. The guys in the Advanced Engine Tech section of Speedtalk frequently argue over velocity profiles, acceleration profiles, fitting polynomials to a lift curve while smoothing the 6th derivative... There's absolutely no harm in releasing the "five number" specs (and it just might get them more business) unless that's all they know about the lobes, in which case I'd still be worried.

What makes a cam "DOD Compatible" anyway?


KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #23, 12-15-2010 09:42 AM
      I love the ign. Coil setup.
I'll be following this one for sure.



InTheLead MSG #24, 12-15-2010 10:57 AM
      Nice I like all the custom fab work~



dobey MSG #25, 12-15-2010 11:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
What makes a cam "DOD Compatible" anyway?


The DoD profile has a lower lift limit due to the special lifters. There are also some other practical limits for the LSA and duration. Too much and there's a possibility of stalling out on the highway when the DoD kicks in, given the fact that you just lost half the cylinders.


fieroguru MSG #26, 12-15-2010 11:10 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

What makes a cam "DOD Compatible" anyway?


There are 3 key camshaft requirements for the DoD lifters:
In 4cly mode the DoD lifters must be able to fully collapse internally to allow the valve to remain shut as the lifter rides the cam.
The opening and closing rate must not be to agressive.
The sping pressure can not go beyond a certain point.

The last two are interrelated and have to do with the locking pin in the lifters for V8 mode. If these factors are not taken into consideration, you will fail the DoD lifters in under 5K miles. After reading countless threads of people "trying" other factory cams (even the stock LS6 cam) and ruining the DoD lifters, I figued it was best to go with a proven design (from a DoD perspective) vs. taking a gamble with an unproven design. This particular cam has been on the market for 2 years now with around 100 installs and so far none have had any lifter issues.
So while the cam isn't perfect from a spec standpoint, I shouldn't have to worry about killing the DoD lifters.

Most camshaft suppliers choose not to spend the time R&Ding the cams for the limited DoD market and instead have chosen to offer DoD delete kits to replace everthing needed so you can run one of their many off the shelf cams.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #27, 12-15-2010 10:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

There are 3 key camshaft requirements for the DoD lifters:
In 4cly mode the DoD lifters must be able to fully collapse internally to allow the valve to remain shut as the lifter rides the cam.
The opening and closing rate must not be to agressive.
The sping pressure can not go beyond a certain point.

The last two are interrelated and have to do with the locking pin in the lifters for V8 mode. If these factors are not taken into consideration, you will fail the DoD lifters in under 5K miles. After reading countless threads of people "trying" other factory cams (even the stock LS6 cam) and ruining the DoD lifters, I figued it was best to go with a proven design (from a DoD perspective) vs. taking a gamble with an unproven design. This particular cam has been on the market for 2 years now with around 100 installs and so far none have had any lifter issues.
So while the cam isn't perfect from a spec standpoint, I shouldn't have to worry about killing the DoD lifters.

Most camshaft suppliers choose not to spend the time R&Ding the cams for the limited DoD market and instead have chosen to offer DoD delete kits to replace everthing needed so you can run one of their many off the shelf cams.


Ok, so the lobe lift has to be less than the travel of the "disconnected" lifters.
What "fails" in the DOD lifters? Does the pin actually shear?
So it has to be a gentle ramp, "lift rule" lobe... interesting. You said one of your sources told you it was a "big" cam? Sounds to me like the gentle ramp rate means that the seat-to-seat numbers are much bigger than the .050 numbers, so it has much more overlap than a "normal" LSx performance cam with the same .050 duration.



fieroguru MSG #28, 12-16-2010 11:10 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Ok, so the lobe lift has to be less than the travel of the "disconnected" lifters.
What "fails" in the DOD lifters? Does the pin actually shear?
So it has to be a gentle ramp, "lift rule" lobe... interesting. You said one of your sources told you it was a "big" cam? Sounds to me like the gentle ramp rate means that the seat-to-seat numbers are much bigger than the .050 numbers, so it has much more overlap than a "normal" LSx performance cam with the same .050 duration.


I haven't seen any disassembled views of a failed DoD lifter, but when they fail they make a hell of a racket.
From what I have read the seat to seat overlap isn't much of an issue (not open enough to allow much air flow)... the stock LS4 cam has 87 degrees of overlap at .006, and -33 degrees at .050. My cam has 58 degees of overlap at .006, but does have 3.5 degrees of overlap at .050... it probably will have a some what choppy idle.

If you look at the diagram of the lobe graphs posted above, you can see the aftermarket cam has a similar opening curve for the first several lift points, then it speeds up slightly, lifts higher, stays open longer, then closes very similar to stock. The real difference is duration at .200 lift. The stock cam spends 106 degrees with the intake lift greater than .200, my cam has 144. A 224 came with more agressive lobes probably has a duration at .200 greater than 150 because it gets to that point in fewer degress on the ramp up.

This cam on the 6.0L engines installed dot to dot works in 4cyl mode (they say they picked this cam due to it performing best in 4cyl mode vs. the others they tried). The other LS4 guy running this cam installed it dot to dot. He has commented on his car peaking power just under 7K rpm and of a significant loss of lowend torque (still able to spin the tires, just 0-60 is slower). Based on that and the cam originally be designed around a 6.0L with more cubes/lowend torque, I installed my cam advanced of dot to dot to bring back a little on the lowend (picked up some dynamic compression ratio as well) and lower the peak RPM down some.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-16-2010).]

Isolde MSG #29, 12-16-2010 01:50 PM
      Good thing KY doesn't do tailpipe sniffer.
Also, I'd wager that cam was spec'ed for a 6.2, or at least a 6.0, back when they were first playing with it. At least your 5.3 can be bored to 5.7, that'll help some.
I'm fairly sure you're not gonna be trying any such thing anytime soon, but it is an option. And about as cheap as buying yet another cam, plus the then-necessary tune, which the extra cubes wouldn't necessarily mandate. Maybe if it maxed out your injectors, but otherwise... Anyway, just new gaskets, a few of which another cam swap would require anyway, plus a few bolts, bore / hone, a set of good used LS6 pistons with rings, and re-balance the crank. LSx bearings are re-useable unless damaged.

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 12-16-2010).]

fieroguru MSG #30, 12-16-2010 02:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:

Good thing KY doesn't do tailpipe sniffer.
Also, I'd wager that cam was spec'ed for a 6.2, or at least a 6.0, back when they were first playing with it. At least your 5.3 can be bored to 5.7, that'll help some.
I'm fairly sure you're not gonna be trying any such thing anytime soon, but it is an option. And about as cheap as buying yet another cam. Just new gaskets, a few of which another cam swap would require anyway, plus bore / hone, a set of good used LS6 pistons with rings, and re-balance the crank. LSx bearings are re-useable unless damaged.



Especially since the car will not have catalytic converters!
The cam was designed aroung the G8 6.0 DoD application.

I do not know if you noticed it while you had your LS4 apart but the LS4 block is actually longer than the other RWD Ls(x)'s. The FWD pattern is actually raised from the RWD pattern. This difference and the 3mm shorter crank is what makes the LS4's crank flange flush with the FWD pattern. So, in the event I want more cubes, I will probably just get a gen IV 6.0 or 6.2 long block, cut the 10mm off the snout, make a thin adapter to put the crank flange flush to the adapter plate, and swap over the rest of the parts (including all the DoD hardware). This would move the engine 3mm to the passenger side, but as long as I design the lower mount brackets for it... the rest of it will be plug and play.


dobey MSG #31, 12-16-2010 02:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Especially since the car will not have catalytic converters!


Even without the cats, it probably puts out less emissions than the stock 2.8. If RickAdy got his car certified without cats in California, I don't think worrying about the emissions anywhere else is going to be an issue, unless you go really wild with building one. But at that point, it's probably easier to just go with an LS3, which has the much better heads.


Isolde MSG #32, 12-16-2010 08:00 PM
      G8 is admittedly a much heavier application. With lame gearing. You should have excellent mid-range torque if you create some long tube headers like Wagoner did in his book. If so, I'm gonna predict 360 ft-lbs at the tires, on a DynoJet chassis dyno. I would say 365, but back to that intake manifold.
I did notice the discrepancy at the rear, but my line of thinking didn't go anything like what you just posted.
Did you ever get the '05 LS2 oil pan for this project? I have the PNs for the pan and the suction tube, and the magnetic drain plug, but I'm lacking the numbers for the dipstick and it's tube, and the windage tray. If you have them... TIA

[This message has been edited by Isolde (edited 12-16-2010).]

dobey MSG #33, 12-16-2010 09:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:
Did you ever get the '05 LS2 oil pan for this project? I have the PNs for the pan and the suction tube, and the magnetic drain plug, but I'm lacking the numbers for the dipstick and it's tube, and the windage tray. If you have them... TIA


I think maybe you got my swap and guru's confused? I don't think he was planning to swap the oil pan, since he's sticking with a working DoD setup, where the larger LS4 pan would probably be better.


fieroguru MSG #34, 12-16-2010 09:59 PM
      Correct, no plans to swap the oil pans.

On Friday I should have pictures of the cradle and the two transmission mount brackets...


fieroguru MSG #35, 12-17-2010 09:08 AM
      After the test fit, I knew there needed to be some modifications to at least the front cross member, so I took one the 88 cradles and did this to it:

Then put it in the 88 cradle fixture and welded in new 2x3x1/8” cross members front and rear. The front one was moved further forward and the rear one was raised to increase room for a wider/thicker muffler.






For the mounts, I will be using a 4 corner rubber mount system using the FB235 mounts that can be purchased for 6.99. These mounts will be pressed into a metal sleeve and the sleeve welded to the brackets.

Here is the front transmission mount bracket:




Here is the rear transmission bracket:




After the next test fit, I will fabricate the tabs that will be welded to the cross members to finish up the mounts.

The engine mount brackets are slightly more complicated, but I hope to have them done this weekend .

Here is a shot of the exhaust pipe clearance under the oil pan:


nosrac MSG #36, 12-17-2010 04:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

After the test fit, I knew there needed to be some modifications to at least the front cross member, so I took one the 88 cradles and did this to it:


My gawd man, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE !

This thread should be in the construction zone.


Bloozberry MSG #37, 12-17-2010 04:54 PM
      I agree... time for the Construction Zone! I'm keeping this thread in my fav's as I gather ideas for tranny mounts for my Blooz Own project. Nice work Guru.

Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #38, 12-18-2010 01:19 AM
      I like your starter mount.

I also think this thread needs a new home


fieroguru MSG #39, 12-18-2010 01:47 PM
      Thanks for all the compliments so far!

I ran out of time this morning before "quiet time" (nap time for the girls, so no cutting/grinding), so I was not able to finish the tapered contour at the top... but here are a couple work in progress picture of the rear engine mount. Just like the other 2 mounts, 4 bolt holes are used (one at the very top you can not see yet) to spread the load:



On the rear cross member is a locating tool for this mount... it locates the bottom bushing in the same location as the rear transmission mount. Doing this isn't required, but I try to keep the mounts co-linear when ever possible. I also like to position the mounts as far apart as possible to better control any drive train movement without needing any top side supports.


After "quiet time" I should be able to put the finishing touches on this mount.

The front engine mount will be integrated with the accessory brackets... which brings me to the water pump. The stock LS4 water pump is compact in that it protrudes very little beyond the LS4 balancer. This helps ensure everything fits within the frame rails, but at an expense. The LS4 coolant fill location hits the stock deck lid spring box and the swaps so far have either moved the box or modified the water pump (or both). I chose to modify the water pump to fix the coolant fill issue, address the location for the alternator and the cluttered collection of hoses at the based of the LS4 water pump. All completed LS4 swaps have either trimmed the passenger frame rail to mount it on the rear of the engine down low (right above the axle) or use WCF reverse cantilevered mount to hang it over the old battery location. I am after a clean and simple design and wanted the alternator out of sight and along side the alternator (like all my other swaps have been). This avoids the frame rail mod and keeps the alternator hidden.

Everything in blue is going away:


Once the majority of it is trimmed:




As you look at the pictures above, you can see the outlet for the water pump goes to the top and the portion removed at the bottom was just the passage to the thermostat housing (and the thermostat housing). Before you all freak out, here is my new (chunk of a 4.3 intake manifold) thermostat housing that will be welded to the LS4 water pump housing:




Here is the nipple (another modified thermostat housing) that will be welded on the back side of the water pump for the coolant inlet. I still need to shorten it some to gain more clearance to the exhaust (that is the outer heat shield, not the primary tube):





Here is a rough approximation of the belt drive for the accessories:

If you look close at this picture you can see a piece of 1/8" wire along side the alternator, the lower portion of this represents the slight indent in the double firewall section that gives just enough room (might move the engine/tranny rearward about 3/8" to gain more clearance when I finalize the mount locations on the cradle.


I was planning to reuse the LS4 alternator and A/C compressor since they came with the engine, but the LS4 alternator is mounted funky with the bottom mount flange mostly inaccessible... the 88 4cyl Fiero alternator fits better and would be easier to mount.


The jury is still out on the LS4 AC compressor. It only has 2 mounting ears so it can not be used to help stabilize the alternator mounting. The 88 4cyl AC compressor has 4 ears and could be used to help stabilize the alternator, but I haven't checked to see if it would fit yet (need to take it off another engine first).

Below whatever I do for the AC and Alternator, there needs to be an engine mount in this general location:



One last bit of info... the LS4 came with a return-less fuel system and I plan to keep it return less. The easiest and probably a cheapest way to accomplish this is with a factory fuel filter/regulator built into 1 for the Corvettes. In my best Mad Max Thunder Dome chant "2 lines enter, 1 line leaves, 2 lines enter, 1 line leaves..." I picked mine up for just over $40 shipped:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-18-2010).]

fieroguru MSG #40, 12-18-2010 04:24 PM
      Here is the mostly completed rear mount:


I am waiting for a day above 32 degrees so the mockup chassis can come back inside for another test fit... until then it will just keep the others company:


Sara started cooking the holiday cookies and volunteered to over see quality control, so not much else will happen today.


fieroguru MSG #41, 12-19-2010 07:33 PM
      Mocked up the LS4 compressor and Fiero alternator and made a template for the bracket. It is made of several pieces of 16ga sheet metal. The sheet metal is quick to shear and shape and allows me to fit the contours of the accessories one section at a time. Then tack weld them together as you build the final bracket shape. Once the template is done, then tape can be used to smooth out some of the sections as well.



I wasn't completely satisfied with this bracket... concerned with the amount of material (or lack there of) between the AC compressor / engine and between the alternator / water pump. For grins I mocked it up with the 88 4cyl a/c compressor:



If I use the 88 4 cyl AC compressor, the bolt boss right next to the alternator would need to be cut off... The other downside of the fiero AC compressor is the smaller pulley. It was designed for an engine with a much smaller crank pulley (about 6") and the LS4's crank pulley is HUGE. Using the fiero AC compressor would speed it up considerably vs. the LS4 compressor... Going to spend a few more days doing some more checking other alternator alternatives (like the one from my 97 truck).

Spent the rest of the day gathering some weight measurements to keep track of the +/- of the various component weights. Ideally, I would like to end up with a lighter combination than the stock LS4 setup and a relatively light overall drive train. Here is a rough run down so far..
code:

Engine Components Stock LS4 LS2/LS7 Fiero/Custom
Alternator: 12.5 -- 11.0
A/C compressor: 14.5 -- 13.0
F/R exhaust manifolds (no crossover): 31.0 25.0 --
MAF, TB, Fuel Rail and Coil Brackets: 7.0 7.5 --
P/S pump & Reservoir: 7.5 -- --
Alternator/AC Bracket: 4.0 -- ?? 7.0 estimate

Totals: 76.5 32.5 31 (62.5 combined)
.
.
Transmission Components: Stock LS4 LS2/LS7 Fiero/Custom
Flex Plate/Flywheel: 4.0 -- 14.0
Starter Bracket: -- -- 0.5
Transmission 214 -- 124
Clutch/Pressure plate: -- -- ?? 15lbs estimate

Totals: 218 -- 153.5 (153.5 combined)



There are still alot of things left unaccounted for like the material removed from the valve covers and water pump, axle differences, stock vs. my custom mounts... largely because I either didn't weigh the stock parts before modifying them or I never had them to start with (like axles/mounts).

When I pull the 2.8/Getrag from the Formula, I plan to take the whole drivetrain as it is dropped from the fiero into work to wieght it on one of our pallet scales. This will include the cradle, engine/tranny/mounts/brackets/accessories, harness, ecm, axles, suspension/brakes and exhaust. Then I plan to do the same to the LS4/F40 in the same configuration to see how much total weight I will add to the backend vs. stock. This will also account for the weight increase for the 12" brakes and possible weight reductions in coil overs.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-19-2010).]

mwhite (mike.white@rogers.com) MSG #42, 12-20-2010 04:19 PM
      Fieroguru,
You have a great build going there. And it is really timely, as I have an LS4 and F40 in my garage waiting to be installed. With your accessories setup, were you planning to put an idler pulley between the alternator, and the AC compressor, to get enough rap around the compressor pulley? Where in your belt system, were you going to put a tensioner, or was the alternator going to be pivot mounted.
Cheers,
Mike


fieroguru MSG #43, 12-20-2010 04:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mwhite:

Fieroguru,
You have a great build going there. And it is really timely, as I have an LS4 and F40 in my garage waiting to be installed. With your accessories setup, were you planning to put an idler pulley between the alternator, and the AC compressor, to get enough rap around the compressor pulley? Where in your belt system, were you going to put a tensioner, or was the alternator going to be pivot mounted.
Cheers,
Mike


This picture shows the approximate locations for idlers (loops in the belt):


I am still researching tensioner options and will most likely put the tensioner up top over the water pump. I could cut the upper aluminum webbing and install this compact tensioner for $35.99 (part # 305232).


The alternator will be solid mounted, but if I wanted a manual belt adjustement, I would use the mercedes offset idlers (cam operated to tighten/loosen the belt).

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-20-2010).]

fieroguru MSG #44, 12-23-2010 03:39 PM
      As I continue to ponder the accessory drive and wait for a 2000 chevy truck alternator to arrive, decided to finish up the front engine mount and keep it seperate from the accessory drive bracket. There isn't much room between the block and AC compressor, but some 3/8" x 2" steel bar will fit and be plenty stiff. I was able to use 4 bolts on this mount as well to help spread the load. I also made another bushing locator so this bushing is co-linear with the front transmission bushing.



[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-23-2010).]

fieroguru MSG #45, 12-24-2010 04:26 PM
      More LS4 water pump butchery today... but now I have a belt tensioner and upper idler pulley:




This location places the tensioner on the slack side of the belt and places both bolts in an area of the water pump casting that is quite thick. This will provides ample material for threads as well as milling about 1/8” off the back side to level out the area where the tensioner mounts (and give the front bolt clearance to the valve cover). I still need to make a spacer for the idler to position it in line with the balancer and might relocated the bottom idler by the balancer up about 1/2" to give more room between the two belts.


deezil MSG #46, 12-24-2010 04:50 PM
      Sweet! Check your pm's

fieroguru MSG #47, 12-25-2010 03:43 PM
      During "quiet time" I was able to fire up the mill and clearance the water pump housing for the tensioner:


There should be enough room for the stainless steel button head now.


The belts do not really get much closer as the tensioner moves:



I still need to do some more clearancing to the boss on the water pump so the tensioner has full range of motion. Right now it takes up about 1" of belt slack and I would like to to be closer to 2".

Maybe on Sunday I will switch the welder over to aluminum and do some welding on the water pump.


Seanpaul (seanscarbrough@gmail.com) MSG #48, 12-29-2010 05:44 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


The LS4 bolts directly to the F40, no adapter plate needed.


I'm paying close attention to this as i have an Ls1 and want to mate it with an F40.
Will the F40 bold up to the Ls1 or just the Ls7?


fieroguru MSG #49, 12-29-2010 06:35 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Seanpaul:


I'm paying close attention to this as i have an Ls1 and want to mate it with an F40.
Will the F40 bold up to the Ls1 or just the Ls7?


The LS4 is the only LS based engine with the FWD Metric pattern and is the only LS based engine that will bolt directly to the typical fiero transmissions including the F40. The LS1, LS2, LS3, LS6, LS7 and LS9 will all require an adapter plate.


dobey MSG #50, 12-29-2010 10:12 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
The LS4 is the only LS based engine with the FWD Metric pattern and is the only LS based engine that will bolt directly to the typical fiero transmissions including the F40. The LS1, LS2, LS3, LS6, LS7 and LS9 will all require an adapter plate.


Don't forget the LSX and LSA.

But to be more specific, the LS4 block is the only small block V8 from GM to ever be in a FWD vehicle, and the only one that will mount to the FWD Metric pattern directly. And it's not very likely that GM will produce a new small block V8 like that anytime soon. If you want a V8 that bolts straight up to the GM FWD Metric transaxles, your only choices are LS4 or Northstar. And both will require some small modifications to any manual trans.

Just thought I'd post in case anyone wanted to come ask about any other V8 possibilities for a direct bolt up.


fieroguru MSG #51, 12-29-2010 11:16 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Don't forget the LSX and LSA.

But to be more specific, the LS4 block is the only small block V8 from GM to ever be in a FWD vehicle, and the only one that will mount to the FWD Metric pattern directly. And it's not very likely that GM will produce a new small block V8 like that anytime soon. If you want a V8 that bolts straight up to the GM FWD Metric transaxles, your only choices are LS4 or Northstar. And both will require some small modifications to any manual trans.

Just thought I'd post in case anyone wanted to come ask about any other V8 possibilities for a direct bolt up.


It gets alittle confusing when you specify FWD, since there were longitudinal FWD applications that used V8 engines (both big and small block configurations) but all had the BOP pattern, not the Metric pattern.

The LS4, N* (and its sister the Aurora 4.0), and the 4.1/4.5/4.9 pushrod caddilac V8s are the only V8 engines that use the Metric pattern. All other V8's will require an adapter plate of some sort.


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #52, 12-29-2010 01:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
...
The LS4, N* (and its sister the Aurora 4.0), and the 4.1/4.5/4.9 pushrod caddilac V8s are the only V8 engines that use the Metric pattern. All other V8's will require an adapter plate of some sort.


Well... not exactly. Gotta have deep pockets, though.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/113449.html
Don't want to hijack.


dobey MSG #53, 12-29-2010 03:08 PM
      Interesting, Raydar. I guess that is an option if you want to go that route. And I did forget about the 4.x Caddy V8s. Sorry.


Seanpaul (seanscarbrough@gmail.com) MSG #54, 12-29-2010 05:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


The LS4 is the only LS based engine with the FWD Metric pattern and is the only LS based engine that will bolt directly to the typical fiero transmissions including the F40. The LS1, LS2, LS3, LS6, LS7 and LS9 will all require an adapter plate.


I have a nice LS1 out of a 99 corvette. Was hoping for an Archie kit for an install next year. But you mention "FWD Metric pattern" ..doest the mean that the rotation of the engine is so that in FWD position, it can be moved to the rear of the Fiero? Does the Corvette C5 Ls1 rotate in a direction so that it cannot be moved to the back of a Fiero and be used with an F40 or Getrag?

I was also told that i can flip the intake so on that LS1 engine as well, is that true?




fieroguru MSG #55, 12-29-2010 06:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Seanpaul:


I have a nice LS1 out of a 99 corvette. Was hoping for an Archie kit for an install next year. But you mention "FWD Metric pattern" ..doest the mean that the rotation of the engine is so that in FWD position, it can be moved to the rear of the Fiero? Does the Corvette C5 Ls1 rotate in a direction so that it cannot be moved to the back of a Fiero and be used with an F40 or Getrag?

I was also told that i can flip the intake so on that LS1 engine as well, is that true?



"Metric Pattern" refers to the bellhousing bolt pattern: http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...ns#GM_metric_pattern
This Metric Pattern is a common FWD pattern and is the same as the fiero pattern.

You can use your LS1 engine in the back of a fiero, but it will require the Archie LS(x) kit.

Flipping the LS1 intake is simple, but it does require modifying the oil pressure sender boss (aluminum welding).


Seanpaul (seanscarbrough@gmail.com) MSG #56, 12-29-2010 06:57 PM
      That was a good link thanks, i typed it in to wiki at first but didn't get the results.
So the wiki info doesn't seem to stay...is the Ls1 BOP?

Guru...have you considered offering a kit for this swap??


RumbleB MSG #57, 12-30-2010 11:44 AM
      Just an inquire here, regarding the water pump. Wouldn't be easier to switch the setup over and use the RWD water pump design? Instead of going though all of the work cutting up the casting, you have. It would put the pump back above the crank pulley and help clean up the engine some. Always like the work you do. First class all the way.

[This message has been edited by RumbleB (edited 12-30-2010).]

fieroguru MSG #58, 12-30-2010 01:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RumbleB:

Just an inquire here, regarding the water pump. Wouldn't be easier to switch the setup over and use the RWD water pump design? Instead of going though all of the work cutting up the casting, you have. It would put the pump back above the crank pulley and help clean up the engine some. Always like the work you do. First class all the way.



Only way you can use the RWD water pump is to cut the majority of the passenger side frame rail for clearance... there just isn't enough room for it to fit, then you have the issue with the outlet and heater hoses exiting to the rear of the chassis and looping back up front. If you look at the belt location vs. the timing cover on the LS4, there is only about 1/2" between the two. Then look at the RWD pump and see home much space there is between the backside of the pump and the pulley... probably 1" to 1 1/2", and then the pulley itself sticks out another 3-4 inches from there. If you look at some of the clearance shots between the balancer and passenser frame rail, the needed room just isn't there.

The "easy" solutions are either to run the same electric water pump setup like Archie does on all his swaps, get the WCF alternator bracket and mount it up top, or notch the passenger frame and mount is down low like FieroAddiction and Sinister Performance.

One of my many character flaws is I like to do things the hard way and come up with thought provoking solutions. The more effort involved, the greater the chance of my swap remaining unique...

I am hoping to have a couple pics of some welded alumimum this evening to get this thread back on track.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-30-2010).]

fieroguru MSG #59, 12-30-2010 07:01 PM
      Lets get back to the build...

The nipple for the water pump inlet was welded in place and the welds cleaned up:


The thermostat flange was also welded on. Here is the other half that will bolt in place:



I still need to weld the top of the coolant fill to the bolt on part. I purchased a 12" piece of aluminum pipe so I can adjust the elevation of the cap slightly.


fieroguru MSG #60, 01-01-2011 05:36 PM
      Well my alternator package showed up yesterday and had a distributor inside... going to be another week or two till I can get back to the accessory bracket.

So I spent a little time today capping the open passages on the water pump and cleaning up and smoothing all the welds.




On Sunday I should be able to finish the water pump housing... just need to build up the upper tensioner bolt area, cut out the thermostat area, then smooth out all the edges in the places it was cut. I have already done the first series of leak tests and everything checks out. Eventually, I will cap everything and pressurize it to 30 psi and check for air leaks.

Once it is leak free, then it will be ready for some sand blasting to give the whole thing a uniform texture.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-01-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #61, 01-03-2011 03:34 PM
      Well my daily driver truck started to act up and wouldn't start, so I spent the better part of my New Years holiday working on it. Once it was running again, I was in the mood for some inspirational pics and needed to finalize the engine placement anyway... so back in the mockup chassis the engine/tranny/cradle went:


I went ahead and taped the 85mm MAF on the end of the throttle body and mocked up the air intake tube. This is the same GM plastic tube Darth Fiero uses on his 3800SC swaps. It need to be sectioned in the center to shorten it and then I can use some of the material to space the MAF from the throttle body and get the front/back portion of the intake tube to be closer to the driver side frame rail. If I can not get this plastic tube to work, I will just get some 3 1/2" mandrel bends and weld something together.

Here is the new thermostat housing and coolant fill location. The hose from this will easily clear the belt and the passenger frame rail.


The tensioner pulley is about 5/8" from the firewall and only gets about 1/8" closer when the tensioner is pulled down. The vast majority of the engine movement will be to the rear, so this should be plenty of clearance. I could always swap out the pulley on the tensioner for the stock LS4 tensioner pulley that is about 1/2" smaller in diameter to gain some more clearance. Also, it is clear than the tensioner pulley will be into the passenger hinge box... it is good than my fiero will not need/have these boxes... mostly in an efffort to remove clutter from the engine bay.



The coolant inlet on the back side of the water pump will clear everything and have the hose routed down by the recessed portion of the double firewall panel:


Water pump cleatance to the passenger frame rail... lots of room here:


Oil fill is still trying to co-exist with the dogbone bracket. My fiero will not have this dogbone bracket to contend with.


F40 transmission to the driver side frame rail has about 1/4" clearance to the factory notch in the frame. I am seriously considering moving this factory notch to the rear 1" so it is better positioned around the F40 and will give it more room. I am not a fan of frame modifications, but the clearance in this area will be visible and I want it to look good. Right now the notch isn't centered and the tranny is very close to the edge of the notch... it would look better with the notch moved to the rear 1".



Here is another overall picture before I mocked up the air intake tube.


Now I can finish up the mount tabs and have the engine/tranny fully mounted to the cradle.


qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #62, 01-04-2011 04:44 PM
      looking sweet. looking forward to the updates and pics.

edit - what plug wires are you going to use? have you looked for them yet?

Rob




stickpony MSG #63, 01-04-2011 06:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Here is another overall picture before I mocked up the air intake tube.


Now I can finish up the mount tabs and have the engine/tranny fully mounted to the cradle.


hey Fieroguru...

had an F40 tranny questions for you: a master fabricator such as yourself might be motivated to alter the gearing of the F40, since 1st gear is so intolerable for a powerful V8 such as the LS4. i would think that someone such as yourself might want to do that.

as it sits, the 1st gear(3.77:1) combined with the final drive(3.55:1) gives a combined ratio of 13.38:1. that is outrageous behind a v8 man! you would be shifting after barely touching the gas...with the average fiero tire size, you would be shifting around 25 mph....dropping both the 1st gear and the final drive to something around 3:0:1 would of course be ideal

so is this something that is doable??

[This message has been edited by stickpony (edited 01-04-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #64, 01-04-2011 06:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:

looking sweet. looking forward to the updates and pics.

edit - what plug wires are you going to use? have you looked for them yet?

Rob



I have been checking around for options and found where several people were using the LT1 optispark wires. I prefer to get the cut to fit versions so I can make the routing clean. I am kicking around running the wires in a square bundle of 4 vs. a stacked set of 4... Might even run the wires in aluminum or stainless steel tubing (non-polished)...


fieroguru MSG #65, 01-04-2011 06:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by stickpony:
hey Fieroguru...

had an F40 tranny questions for you: a master fabricator such as yourself might be motivated to alter the gearing of the F40, since 1st gear is so intolerable for a powerful V8 such as the LS4. i would think that someone such as yourself might want to do that.

as it sits, the 1st gear(3.77:1) combined with the final drive(3.55:1) gives a combined ratio of 13.38:1. that is outrageous behind a v8 man! you would be shifting after barely touching the gas...with the average fiero tire size, you would be shifting around 25 mph....dropping both the 1st gear and the final drive to something around 3:0:1 would of course be ideal

so is this something that is doable??



I haven't taken either of my F40's apart to see how difficult the change would be. If all the gears are seperate and not integrated into the shafts, then it would be much easier. I would love to have either a 3.0 final drive or a 3.0 first gear... but either of those would probably double the cost of this swap, so I will be sticking with the stock ratios.

Knowing the ratios are what they are, my engine was built to rev and I am planning to shift at 7000 rpm. This makes 1st gear last till 38mph and 2nd till 71 with a 24.6" I could gain a few more MPH in each gear by going to a slightly larger diameter wheel/tire package.


RumbleB MSG #66, 01-06-2011 03:58 PM
      You might have talked about this, in one of your other threads. But I am going to ask any how.
What kind of welder do you use? Just wanting to know how you are welding aluminium?
I have a mig welder that runs on 110 A.C. It does a lot of the work that I need done, but I don't think it will do aluminium

Don Z..


fieroguru MSG #67, 01-06-2011 04:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RumbleB:

You might have talked about this, in one of your other threads. But I am going to ask any how.
What kind of welder do you use? Just wanting to know how you are welding aluminium?
I have a mig welder that runs on 110 A.C. It does a lot of the work that I need done, but I don't think it will do aluminium

Don Z..


Lincoln ProMig 175 (from Lowes on clearance). It is a 220V welder and setup for shielding gas. I use Argon/CO2 mix for mild steel and 100% Argon for aluminum.

Many of the name brand mig welders have an aluminum conversion kit (about $65) that comes with a special liner, special feed wheels and tips. Once you have it, the welder settings are much more critical - it is VERY easy to deform the wire and cause it to kink/bind while feeding. It is also important to keep the lead as straight as possible to lessen the resistance to pushing the aluminum wire.

The melting point difference between aluminum and aluminum oxide (the outer layer) is around 300 degrees, so if you do not clean off all the aluminum oxide before welding, you will put too much heat into the material to melt the aluminum oxide and once through the base aluminum falls away.

It is also important to preheat the aluminum some. Aluminum disappates heat very quickly and if you do not preheat it, then you need to start out putting more heat into the weld and then back it off as the temperature of the part starts to increase.

A tig would be great...




JazzMan (jazzman@fierocentral.com) MSG #68, 01-06-2011 06:51 PM
      I just finished the TIG course at my local college, it's the only way to go with aluminum. Aluminum welding with wire is really meant for large scale production environments. Besides the special hardware (I highly recommend a spool gun as you're pretty much certain to birds-nest aluminum trying to push it through a typical 10' torch lead) you must run a different gas, pure argon. Most all mild steel welding is done with C25, a mixture of 25% CO2 and 75% argon. Like Guru said, prep is critical as aluminum oxide forms almost instantly on freshly cleaned surfaces and not only inhibits welding but contaminates the weld as well. That's the other problem with welding with wire. Wire machines are DC, which means the welding current flows only one way. TIG machines when used to weld Al are setup as AC; the reversing current cleans the oxide layer (the one you can't see that formed immediately after cleaning with a brush) and makes welding oh so much nicer.

I was going to get a spool gun for my Miller ($900, ouch) but after taking the TIG course I'm going to stick with my EconoTIG, and keep my eye open for a nice Synchrowave like this one: http://dallas.craigslist.or.../tls/2109869452.html


fieroguru MSG #69, 01-06-2011 07:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:


Glad to see you posting again!


RumbleB MSG #70, 01-06-2011 08:12 PM
      Thanks Guys! I guess, I keep an eye out for a tig. My Miller 140 is gas shielding and does a great job for the most part. But I don't think it will do aluminium.

ckrummy MSG #71, 01-07-2011 02:58 PM
      I'm just gong to say that if there are any larger gaps when welding aluminum i suggest MIG because it is easier to bridge the gaps especially on cast aluminum. If your going to TIG make sure the gaps are tight and clean or its just going to burn away.

stickpony MSG #72, 01-07-2011 03:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


I haven't taken either of my F40's apart to see how difficult the change would be. If all the gears are seperate and not integrated into the shafts, then it would be much easier. I would love to have either a 3.0 final drive or a 3.0 first gear... but either of those would probably double the cost of this swap, so I will be sticking with the stock ratios.

Knowing the ratios are what they are, my engine was built to rev and I am planning to shift at 7000 rpm. This makes 1st gear last till 38mph and 2nd till 71 with a 24.6" I could gain a few more MPH in each gear by going to a slightly larger diameter wheel/tire package.


what mods were done to make it rev more freely?

a simple final drive change would be affordable enough i would think.. the 1st gear is going to be a bit more difficult


fieroguru MSG #73, 01-07-2011 06:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by stickpony:


what mods were done to make it rev more freely?

a simple final drive change would be affordable enough i would think.. the 1st gear is going to be a bit more difficult


Spinning it to 7K and making power to 7K are two completely different issues. The LS(x) engines are quite strong and just need good rod bolts and a stabile valve train to pull to 7K. To make power at that RPM requires a low restriction intake/exhaust combination with an appropriate camshaft.

For my swap I have upgraded: MAF, Throttle body, Intake, Injectors, camshaft, valve springs, exhaust and tune. The DoD lifters are probably the weakest link and the stock 2007 rod bolts next. The nice thing about the LS4 is if/when I blow the engine, for $1000 I can have another and swap my parts to it and do it again.

Until you pull the transmission apart and take a look at the individual gears and shafts, it is unknown as to which would be cheaper to swap (1st or the final drive). If the pinion gear to the final drive is intergral (or cut directly into) to the output shaft then making that shaft/gear setup becomes costly (and remember you need 2 of them due to the 3 shaft design). If the 1st gear is integral to the shaft, or common to 2nd gear, then that setup becomes more difficult and expensive... won't really know what you are up against until you disassemble the transmission.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-07-2011).]

blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #74, 01-07-2011 07:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The nice thing about the LS4 is if/when I blow the engine, for $1000 I can have another and swap my parts to it and do it again.


Paul,
As I told you today on the phone, there is a fine line between genius and insanity. You're way over that line.
One of the reasons I like you and your work.

Ron


fieroguru MSG #75, 01-07-2011 07:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:


Paul,
As I told you today on the phone, there is a fine line between genius and insanity. You're way over that line.
One of the reasons I like you and your work.

Ron


Guilty as charged! Thats why Sara has a masters degree in psychology...


dobey MSG #76, 01-07-2011 08:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
For my swap I have upgraded: MAF, Throttle body, Intake, Injectors, camshaft, valve springs, exhaust and tune. The DoD lifters are probably the weakest link and the stock 2007 rod bolts next. The nice thing about the LS4 is if/when I blow the engine, for $1000 I can have another and swap my parts to it and do it again.


You're not going with the ARP rod bolts?

As far as the lifters go, from what I'm finding on other forums asking about their reliability, I would stay under 6200. Seems like their weight and design will lead to much higher chance to break after that.


1fatcat MSG #77, 01-07-2011 10:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by stickpony:

as it sits, the 1st gear(3.77:1) combined with the final drive(3.55:1) gives a combined ratio of 13.38:1. that is outrageous behind a v8 man! you would be shifting after barely touching the gas...with the average fiero tire size, you would be shifting around 25 mph....dropping both the 1st gear and the final drive to something around 3:0:1 would of course be ideal

so is this something that is doable??



Not easily. The F40 uses an input shaft and 2 main shafts. The main shafts BOTH enguage the differential gear (the equivalent of a ring gear in a RWD differential) at all times. To change the final
drive ratio, you would have to change the diff gear and both of the shaft gears. 1st gear is part of one of the main shafts, and 2nd gear is part of the other main shaft. So to change the ratio of 1st or second, new shafts would be needed at the very least, and they would be very expensive...if you could even find someone willing to make them?


fieroguru MSG #78, 01-08-2011 08:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


You're not going with the ARP rod bolts?

As far as the lifters go, from what I'm finding on other forums asking about their reliability, I would stay under 6200. Seems like their weight and design will lead to much higher chance to break after that.


I haven't purchased or installed the rod bolts yet. Still kicking around going with Katec vs. ARP. I am planning to install them once I take everything back apart to paint it. The rod bolts and clutch are the last significant purchases for the build I still need to make.


dobey MSG #79, 01-08-2011 12:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I haven't purchased or installed the rod bolts yet. Still kicking around going with Katec vs. ARP. I am planning to install them once I take everything back apart to paint it. The rod bolts and clutch are the last significant purchases for the build I still need to make.


I didn't know Katech had rod bolts, but now that I see they do, and see the specs vs. the two different ARP bolt versions, I would still go with ARP. Even the more expensive ARP 2000 bolts are still only about $100, while the Katechs are $200. Is there something special about the Katechs that would make them worth the extra $100? The ARPs seem to be stronger, as far as I can tell from the specs.


fieroguru MSG #80, 01-08-2011 07:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
I didn't know Katech had rod bolts, but now that I see they do, and see the specs vs. the two different ARP bolt versions, I would still go with ARP. Even the more expensive ARP 2000 bolts are still only about $100, while the Katechs are $200. Is there something special about the Katechs that would make them worth the extra $100? The ARPs seem to be stronger, as far as I can tell from the specs.


Katech rod bolts have a yield strength of 260,000 psi and ARP 2000 is 220,000 psi. Katech's are able to be installed w/o resizing the large rod end... which is desirable when swapping the bolts w/o engine disassembly. ARP still specifies to resize the rods when used which would require engine disassembly (sure many have done it w/o resizing w/o issue, but there have been several reports from those people about spinning bearings). Lastly, Katech was involved in R&D/durability testing for the GM LS1 ASA engines and developed and proved the capabilities of their rod bolts during that testing.

I will probably go with the Katechs and have one less chance of failure.

The LS4/F40 is back on the cradle fixture so I can fab up the mount tabs... but it will be a week or two till it get back to it... busy parting out a 2.8/Getrag to help pay for the next round of parts.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #81, 01-10-2011 09:40 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 1fatcat:


Not easily. The F40 uses an input shaft and 2 main shafts. The main shafts BOTH enguage the differential gear (the equivalent of a ring gear in a RWD differential) at all times. To change the final
drive ratio, you would have to change the diff gear and both of the shaft gears. 1st gear is part of one of the main shafts, and 2nd gear is part of the other main shaft. So to change the ratio of 1st or second, new shafts would be needed at the very least, and they would be very expensive...if you could even find someone willing to make them?


GM built a version with 3.94 final drive in the 03-04 Saab 9-3's.
The 1st and 2nd input gears are integral to the input shaft.


dobey MSG #82, 01-18-2011 03:37 PM
      So did you get her fired up yet?


fieroguru MSG #83, 01-18-2011 03:55 PM
      Nope... been busy parting out the 2.8/Getrag for funding and room. I did finish the test fit and put everything back on the cradle fixture to finish all the mount tabs, but haven't touched it in a could of weeks.

I also spent a couple of days turning down a Spec LS1 168 tooth billet flywheel to accept the 142 tooth ring gear. I am thinking about making one LS4/Getrag (92-94 HTOB) flywheel and starter mount and put it on ebay to help fund the LS4/F40 swap...

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-18-2011).]

mwhite (mike.white@rogers.com) MSG #84, 01-19-2011 03:55 PM
      Any thoughts about making a LS4 to F40 Flywheel? I was going to have SPEC make one for me, but if you have the ability to make one at a reasonable price I would be interested. And it would be nice to help someone out on the forum too.


fieroguru MSG #85, 01-19-2011 04:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mwhite:

Any thoughts about making a LS4 to F40 Flywheel? I was going to have SPEC make one for me, but if you have the ability to make one at a reasonable price I would be interested. And it would be nice to help someone out on the forum too.


I have no interest in making more LS4/F40 flywheels... they are just too thick and require to much work. The LS4/Getrag is much simplier and easier to get the needed flywheel to start with.

I have kicked around the idea of having spec make me one... but too cheap...


blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #86, 01-19-2011 07:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

... but too cheap...


Maybe, but you're rich in talent.

Ron


mwhite (mike.white@rogers.com) MSG #87, 01-26-2011 01:35 PM
      FieroGuru,
I have a question about exhaust manifolds, and spacing. The LS4 rear manifold angles way from the engine block, and gives plenty of room for the trans and passenger side axle. Using the LS7 manifold that hugs the block more, is there an issue with interference between the down pipe from the manifold and the passenger axle? I am thinking of using some LS2 manifolds, which would be similar in style, but I have concerns about the down pipe. If you could, please post a picture from the from the passenger side wheel well with the axle installed. Thanks a lot.
Mike


fieroguru MSG #88, 01-26-2011 01:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mwhite:

FieroGuru,
I have a question about exhaust manifolds, and spacing. The LS4 rear manifold angles way from the engine block, and gives plenty of room for the trans and passenger side axle. Using the LS7 manifold that hugs the block more, is there an issue with interference between the down pipe from the manifold and the passenger axle? I am thinking of using some LS2 manifolds, which would be similar in style, but I have concerns about the down pipe. If you could, please post a picture from the from the passenger side wheel well with the axle installed. Thanks a lot.
Mike

The LS7 manifolds are similar to most corvette manifolds, they typically do not hug the block at all, just exit straight down from the heads. I do not have any LS2 manifolds to compare them too, but probably the next best would be the 97+ formed stainless manifolds from the Vette and cut the collector bend off of them. They are a formed stainless manifold with integraded heat shields/insulation and are quite compact. Just cut the collector bend off of them and install some band clamps.

There is about 2" of clearance between the exhaust and the intermediate shaft with the LS7 manifolds. It isn't the easiest to see in this picture, but you can make out the closest edge of the manifold to the intermediate shaft.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-26-2011).]

qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #89, 01-26-2011 03:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mwhite:

FieroGuru,
I have a question about exhaust manifolds, and spacing. The LS4 rear manifold angles way from the engine block, and gives plenty of room for the trans and passenger side axle. Using the LS7 manifold that hugs the block more, is there an issue with interference between the down pipe from the manifold and the passenger axle? I am thinking of using some LS2 manifolds, which would be similar in style, but I have concerns about the down pipe. If you could, please post a picture from the from the passenger side wheel well with the axle installed. Thanks a lot.
Mike


Guru, sorry to crash your thread,

Mwhite, Archie uses stock LS3 mani's for those who don't want to use his headers. I went with the headers and have a set of new, never used LS3 manis (for sale). I'll pass some photos of them. They are the Corvette ones not the Camaro ones, and yes there is a differance.

Rob



fieroguru MSG #90, 01-27-2011 06:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mwhite:

FieroGuru,
I have a question about exhaust manifolds, and spacing. The LS4 rear manifold angles way from the engine block, and gives plenty of room for the trans and passenger side axle. Using the LS7 manifold that hugs the block more, is there an issue with interference between the down pipe from the manifold and the passenger axle? I am thinking of using some LS2 manifolds, which would be similar in style, but I have concerns about the down pipe. If you could, please post a picture from the from the passenger side wheel well with the axle installed. Thanks a lot.
Mike


Here is a better picture of the clearance:





diabloroadster MSG #91, 01-27-2011 10:09 PM
      Super build! Love it- love it- love it.....

mwhite (mike.white@rogers.com) MSG #92, 01-28-2011 11:48 AM
      Thanks alot that helps.

KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #93, 01-31-2011 02:18 AM
      weekend updates??



fieroguru MSG #94, 01-31-2011 06:40 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:

weekend updates??



Nothing LS4 related has happened... still collecting cash for my next round of purchases (plug wires, clutch, wide band O2 controller, etc). A friend brought over an 88 formula with a 3800SC/Getrag for me to do some work on, so I will need to finish that up before I can get back to the LS4.



stickpony MSG #95, 01-31-2011 03:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


GM built a version with 3.94 final drive in the 03-04 Saab 9-3's.
The 1st and 2nd input gears are integral to the input shaft.


REHEHEEALLY...

will, do you think the entire gear assembly could be swapped into the g6 speed casing?

this would make an ideal tranny gearing for high TQ v8 manual tranny swap, such as the LS4, assuming a 2nd gear launch, effectively turning it into 5 speed if you ignore 1st gear. the 3.55:1 final in the f40 is too tall to make 2nd gear launches practical, but a 3.94:1 final would work just fine for that application


KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #96, 02-15-2011 06:50 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I also spent a couple of days turning down a Spec LS1 168 tooth billet flywheel to accept the 142 tooth ring gear. I am thinking about making one LS4/Getrag (92-94 HTOB) flywheel and starter mount and put it on ebay to help fund the LS4/F40 swap...



You still thinking about selling the flywheel and starter mount?



fieroguru MSG #97, 02-15-2011 08:59 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:

You still thinking about selling the flywheel and starter mount?



Yes, it is still a possibility. The flywheel has been turned down, but still needs the ring gear landing and pressure plate pattern added. Then I need to mock up my 92-94 HTOB getrag transmission with the LS4 for the starter pad.

Been bogged down with lots of other stuff the past month or two, but hopefully I will get back to updating this thread in a week or two.


fieroguru MSG #98, 02-19-2011 07:25 PM
      Back to working on this swap... finally.

Made the 4 mount tabs for the front side mounts:



For the rear transmission mount, the tabs are slightly modified off the shelf items:


I am planning to have all the engine/transmission mount tabs completed this weekend.


fieroguru MSG #99, 02-20-2011 01:38 PM
      It is nap time, so no cutting/grinding in the basement... but a good time to update. 3 of the 4 mounts are done and the 4th one the templates are made.




Here are the two templates for the rear engine mount:



Once the girls wake up from nap, I should be able to make the last two tabs and get them tacked to the cradle.


fieroguru MSG #100, 02-20-2011 06:48 PM
      Mounts are done and fully welded. These should hold up to whatever amount of HP I want to throw at them (might run NOS or go turbo at a later date), but are still rubber mounted to reduce shock loading:



While I had the transmission off, I verified a few other items.

For those of you wanting to run a 92-94 Getrag or the F23 transmission behind an LS4, a stock LS1 168 tooth flywheel is just about perfect from a thickness standpoint, then it is just a matter of turning it down to accept the 142 tooth flywheel and drilling the pressure plate pattern. The one I am modifying for R&D purposes protrudes .818" and has been resurfaced 1 time. This is slightly less protrusion than the stock fiero (.830" was the last one I measured). The LS4 ring gear protrudes .826" from the bellhousing and would probably need to be flush with the face of the flywheel.



There has been lots of discussions lately about the proper measurement of the range of travel for the F40 HTOB. So here are the following measurements - all measurements are distance from the Bellhousing Flange:
End of Input shaft: 1.121"
End of Splines: 1.502"
HTOB fully extended: 2.675"
HTOB fully compressed as delivered: 3.218"
HTOB fully compressed with the bleeder screw opened: 3.582

The F40 HTOB has a check valve inside it. So the amount of fluid in the HTOB from the factory is trapped and will not allow the HTOB to fully collapse until the bleeder assembly is installed and the bleeder screw opened. Once you bleed off the factory fill, you get an extra .364" of travel to the back side and the overall range of travel increases to .907" (from .543").
Here is the setup I used to get these measurements with my digital calipers:


A while back I found a 9 7/8" clutch that "should" fit the F40 application. I wanted to use the largest diameter clutch that will fit to improve overall drivablity while still having a clutch that will hold the power. This particular carbon kevlar clutch is rated (for what it is worth) at 461hp/450lb-ft. The pressure plate pattern is not the same as a stock fiero, but I needed to drill the pattern anyway... The good news is the pressure plate clears the inside of the transmission... I still need to bolt it to the flywheel with the clutch installed to check the stack height.




KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #101, 02-20-2011 09:39 PM
      How would you locate the pressure plate bolt pattern on the new FW?
I have a few idea, but my machining experience is limited to brake rotors/drums and flywheel resurfacing.

What is the Clutch and PP from?

Good to see new progress. I'm building stuff vicariously through you right now.




fieroguru MSG #102, 02-20-2011 10:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:

How would you locate the pressure plate bolt pattern on the new FW?
I have a few idea, but my machining experience is limited to brake rotors/drums and flywheel resurfacing.

What is the Clutch and PP from?

Good to see new progress. I'm building stuff vicariously through you right now.



It is just a matter of measuring the pressure plate to get the average center distance between the holes, laying it out in AutoCAD with the x-y coordinate positions based on the crankshaft center, mounting the flywheel on the mill, dial indicate the center bore of the flywheel, reset the DRO, and then drill by numbers... quite simple, just takes time.

I am not sharing the details on the clutch/pressure plate yet. I want to make sure it works first.


dhobbs84sc (pooface2006@hotmail.com) MSG #103, 02-21-2011 01:06 AM
      Sweet thread. Love your work Guru. Im watching

Really should be in Construction Zone


KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #104, 02-22-2011 11:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


It is just a matter of measuring the pressure plate to get the average center distance between the holes, laying it out in AutoCAD with the x-y coordinate positions based on the crankshaft center, mounting the flywheel on the mill, dial indicate the center bore of the flywheel, reset the DRO, and then drill by numbers... quite simple, just takes time.

I am not sharing the details on the clutch/pressure plate yet. I want to make sure it works first.


so not anything I could do at home. Thanks though.
Updates on this thread are always good.
I definitely want an LS4 in my future. But i'm still a year out from being stateside. No engine swaps til then.

The more I read about LS motors, the more Impressed I am. I want to get an S10 to do a 5.3/T56 swap. Those guys are pushing 30Mpg in a pickup and still getting 320/320 crank hp/tq.

Awesome work.

[This message has been edited by KissMySSFiero (edited 02-22-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #105, 02-22-2011 02:02 PM
      Been tracking down and purchasing some needed odds and ends...
LS7 MLS exhaust gaskets (manifold to head) - 2 required: GM# 12594171
Longer crankshaft/flywheel bolts M11 x 1.50 - 6 required: GM# 12563533
LS2 Throttle body 6 pin connector: GM# 13504128
2002 Z06 MAF 5 pin connector: GM# 12167121 - WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.. this number is for a 6 pin connector. I think 15305932 is the correct #, but need to purchase one to confirm.
DBW accelerator pedal 6-pin connector: GM# 88988944

I have a sickness for stainless steel button heads, so I ordered several more... to date I have spent about $165 on my button head madness for this swap.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-02-2011).]

dobey MSG #106, 02-22-2011 02:17 PM
      Cool, thanks for documenting those part #s.

You don't happen to know the part # for the LSx Main Cap Side Bolts (the small ones that go through the outside of the block, to the main caps) do you? I've been searching like crazy for the GM part #, but can't find it anywhere. I think it is the same for all the LS motors.


fieroguru MSG #107, 02-22-2011 03:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

Cool, thanks for documenting those part #s.

You don't happen to know the part # for the LSx Main Cap Side Bolts (the small ones that go through the outside of the block, to the main caps) do you? I've been searching like crazy for the GM part #, but can't find it anywhere. I think it is the same for all the LS motors.


I think this is the one you are looking for.
#12556127 -Cross Bolts though the block into the side's of the main caps - sold individually

I found it here:
http://www.performancetruck...wthread.php?t=428941


dobey MSG #108, 02-22-2011 03:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I think this is the one you are looking for.
#12556127 -Cross Bolts though the block into the side's of the main caps - sold individually

I found it here:
http://www.performancetruck...wthread.php?t=428941


Ah, thanks! I spent two hours looking for the part, and couldn't find it anywhere. Wish those, I should have everything I need to get my short block back together now, after I finish cutting the bell housing for the starter mount.


fieroguru MSG #109, 02-22-2011 08:21 PM
      The head of the mill was dial indicated to ensure it was perfectly perpendicular (within .001" on a 12" circle to the table), then the flywheel bolted down and dial indicated to find the center within .001" and the DRO zero'd.


I am planning to drill the pattern for my clutch setup (10.8243") as well as the stock fiero pressure plate pattern (10.5550").


fieroguru MSG #110, 02-23-2011 05:53 PM
      The button heads showed up today, so the madness began:










A couple of my bags were mis-labeled and were 3/8" not M10, so I need to order them again. I still need to replace all the bolts in the valley cover, front timing cover, and all the ones holding the sensors in place... yes it is a sickness.

March 23rd - 31st Sara and the girls will be out of town, so I am targeting that week to paint all the parts for this swap... Then the button heads will really stand out!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-23-2011).]

dobey MSG #111, 02-23-2011 06:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
The button heads showed up today, so the madness began:

A couple of my bags were mis-labeled and were 3/8" not M10, so I need to order them again. I still need to replace all the bolts in the valley cover, front timing cover, and all the ones holding the sensors in place... yes it is a sickness.

March 23rd - 31st Sara and the girls will be out of town, so I am targeting that week to paint all the parts for this swap... Then the button heads will really stand out!


You care enough to change the ones that aren't visible too? I think that is a bit much with the button heads.

What all are you painting on the engine? And what colors?

[This message has been edited by dobey (edited 02-23-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #112, 02-23-2011 06:55 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


You care enough to change the ones that aren't visible too? I think that is a bit much with the button heads.

What all are you painting on the engine? And what colors?



Guilty as charged!

I am thinking the block, heads, valley cover, and transmission will be a silver/alumunum color (to keep oxidation down). The Intake, valve covers, timing cover, coil brackets, engine/transmission mounts and transmission shifter bracketts will all be my signature blue. The fuel rail will either be left stock or painted satin black (to help hide the injector harness).

The water pump might end up being satin black so it, the accessory belt and everything on the passenger side of the engine will blend with the engine compartment and keep the intake/valve covers the focal point. Or it will be silver/aluminum... still haven't decided yet.

Some what similar to my old setup, but with a colored intake manifold:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-23-2011).]

Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #113, 02-23-2011 07:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
...
The more I read about LS motors, the more Impressed I am. I want to get an S10 to do a 5.3/T56 swap.


I almost did a 5.3 into my S10, before I sold it.
I have an LM7 (5.3) in a Silverado. It's head and shoulders above the "old" SBC, IMHO.

Back to the topic at hand. Certainly don't want to hijack.

Button heads? I love it! That's going to be a work of art, Paul. Not unlike all of your other installs.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-23-2011).]

Isolde MSG #114, 02-23-2011 10:01 PM
      I test-fitted my LM7 into my S-10, then yanked it for the 350. The 350 fits better, will blaze the tires to illegal speeds, and costs less than a new H3A oilpan to get the LM7 into the S-10.
Now back to our regularly scheduled thread.


fieroguru MSG #115, 02-24-2011 06:43 PM
      Remember this part:

The other half came in today from a guy on LS1 tech. Free since it was broken and I walked the guy through how to remove it. I asked him how much he wanted for the broken one and he just mailed it to me! Pays to be helpful!


So I just had to cut it up to get down to what I need it for.


This end will be attached to the wires from the other half under the intake. This will allow use of the factory connector to this sensor.

My stainless steel button heads for the valve covers had been MIA for a couple of weeks, but I found them today (in my LS4 parts box of all places). The factory spacer/seal sleeve needed to be retained, so I cut the head off the old valve cover bolt.


When I first checked in these bolts, I noticed the washer wasn't large enough and the center hole had too much slop. After the test fit, the washer needs to be replaced (and I already have other ones on their way). The new ones (still stainless) have the same OD as the stock bolts and are tighter on the ID.


Last thing for tonight was to drill the new pressure plate pattern. My clutch/pressure plate setup is a raised flange style, so I have an OEM flywheel on its way so I can confirm the proper elevation for the standoffs I need. Once I have that height and choose a diameter for them, the bolt holes will be counter bored to place the standoffs on the aluminum sureface below the steel friction surface. Plus I will look at possibilities to make them shorter to further increase the clamp load, but need to make sure the release fingers will not come in contact with the clutch disk. It will probably be a week before all my parts show up to continue on the flywheel...


fieroguru MSG #116, 02-27-2011 02:18 PM
      I purchased a used OEM flywheel for my specific clutch so I could confirm the lenth of the spacers needs for my flywheel setup. To place everything like it was in its original application, the spacers need to be .820" above the clutch face of the flywheel.

The flywheel was tapped for 3/8-24 bolts and then a 3/4" counter bore was done for all the holes.

This will allow the spacers to sit on the aluminum flywheel, not the friction material. McMaster sells 3/4" diameter x 1" long aluminum spacers for 3/8" bolts, so I have those on the way. I am planning to mill them down to have a .750" installed height of the pressure plate. This will increase the pressure plate clamp load slightly and make the overall flywheel/clutch/pressure plate package shorter.

Here is the flywheel with the pressure plate installed at the .820" height:


My particular clutch disk is setup very similar to the G6 with the entire hub offset to the transmission side of the clutch disk. This helps ensure proper spline engagement to the clutch disk.


This pressure plate is thicker than a stock fiero pressure plate, so with the .400" crank spacer the total stack height of the flex plate, .400 spacer, flywheel, clutch, and pressure plate was about .100 too tall to fit inside the transmission. So the .400 crank spacer became a .200" crank spacer:


The .400" crank spacer had a boss to support/center the flywheel, but when I made it thinner, the boss went away.


The end of the crankshaft is stepped down as well as the back side of the flywheel, so they no longer had a snug fit to properly center the flywheel, so the cranks flange needed to be extended. The LS4 came with a pilot bushing to support the torque converter, so I removed it and use it to make a new larger pilot bushing to extend the crankshaft flange. The LS4 one is on the right, the one I made on the left:


Then it was pressed into the end of the crankshaft:


The pressure plate spacers and the longer crank bolts should be in sometime this week. Once they are here, I can test fit the assembly and make sure it fits w/o any clearance issues and double check the overall depth of everthing with the range of motion of the HTOB.


Isolde MSG #117, 02-27-2011 06:21 PM
      "The .400" crank spacer had a boss to support/center the flywheel, but when I made it thinner, the boss went away."
I can't believe YOU F'd up so badly. Sooner or later, you WILL be doing it again, and you WILL be milling the OTHER side next time.


Jefrysuko MSG #118, 02-27-2011 06:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:

I can't believe YOU F'd up so badly. Sooner or later, you WILL be doing it again, and you WILL be milling the OTHER side next time


Look closer at the pictures. I think the guru is one step ahead of you yet again.


fieroguru MSG #119, 02-27-2011 07:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:

I can't believe YOU F'd up so badly. Sooner or later, you WILL be doing it again, and you WILL be milling the OTHER side next time.


You can't mill the crank side. The original spacer has a recessed pocket for the crank flange to slide into, then it steps down to allow for the crankshaft flange extension on the other side. The crank flange is somewhere around .380" deep and the spacer was .417 thick (not counting the flange extension). If you take material off the back side, the crank flange will bottom out before the spacer is seated. Take it off the front side and there will only be a couple of thousandth's of material left...

The use of the pilot bearing based flywheel flange isn't anything new, GM has used them before.


fieroguru MSG #120, 03-02-2011 06:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Been tracking down and purchasing some needed odds and ends...
LS7 MLS exhaust gaskets (manifold to head) - 2 required: GM# 12594171
Longer crankshaft/flywheel bolts M11 x 1.50 - 6 required: GM# 12563533
LS2 Throttle body 6 pin connector: GM# 13504128
2002 Z06 MAF 5 pin connector: GM# 12167121
DBW accelerator pedal 6-pin connector: GM# 88988944



Everything from the above list is now here, Except the crank bolts.
LS7 MLS exhaust gaskets (manifold to head) - 2 required: GM# 12594171



LS2 Throttle body 6 pin connector: GM# 13504128 - Correct!


2002 Z06 MAF 5 pin connector: GM# 12167121 - WRONG... I screwed this up when researching it and found the 6 pin connector. I am pretty sure the right # is 15305932, but I need to order it to confirm.

DBW accelerator pedal 6-pin connector: GM# 88988944 - Correct!


Also had a collection of stainless steel button heads and washers show up:


And the aluminum spacers for the pressure plate and remote coil brackets:


Maybe on Thursday I will get home from work in time to play around with these parts before the girls go to bed!


Isolde MSG #121, 03-02-2011 06:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


You can't mill the crank side. The original spacer has a recessed pocket for the crank flange to slide into, then it steps down to allow for the crankshaft flange extension on the other side. The crank flange is somewhere around .380" deep and the spacer was .417 thick (not counting the flange extension). If you take material off the back side, the crank flange will bottom out before the spacer is seated. Take it off the front side and there will only be a couple of thousandth's of material left...

The use of the pilot bearing based flywheel flange isn't anything new, GM has used them before.


Adding the pocket is easy to machine. Even with the sunken taper. I could do that in a couple of hours, no sweat.
The alternative is lathing the male side to keep it's register, then lathing the taper down a matching 0.200"
Either way, the result is the same.
Point is, eventually, you'll find it's necessary to keep BOTH registers. I learned the hard way.


fieroguru MSG #122, 03-02-2011 07:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:


Adding the pocket is easy to machine. Even with the sunken taper. I could do that in a couple of hours, no sweat.
The alternative is lathing the male side to keep it's register, then lathing the taper down a matching 0.200"
Either way, the result is the same.
Point is, eventually, you'll find it's necessary to keep BOTH registers. I learned the hard way.


The ID of the GM crank spacer is within .002" of the OD on the extension shaft. Regardless of which side the material is removed from, once the spacer thickness is less than about .380", the remaining material is only .001" thick and will rely on the crankshaft snout for all its support. With the .200 spacer thickness, the remaining portion of the crankshaft flange is only protruding about .156" and due to the .001" thick sleeve very little support happens any further out. My flywheel has a clearance taper on the back side that is .133" deep, so only the portion of the cranshaft protruding more than .133" or about .023" is available to actually support the flywheel. With that little of overlap, in the event the crankshaft bolts sheared off, the flywheel will not be contained within the bellhousing... that was my concern.

So instead of relying on this .023" of overlap, I chose to extend the crank flange surface another .273" via the pilot hole in the crankshaft. This is the same practice GM used with the 2.5's in all their various applications (GM and otherwise). The crankshafts had a removable pilot bushing that contained the flywheel flange (not the bolt pattern, just the lip for the flywheel to center upon) and depending on the application and flywheel used, these bushings changed. If it was good enough for GM, then I do not think the concept is fundamentally flawed.

Once I have everything bolted down and properly torqued, then I will take the time to dial indicate the flywheel assembly to ensure any run out is in the acceptable range. Once that passes, then I will have it checked for the proper neutral balance and balanced if needed. If I run into issue with either of these steps, then I will just send the whole flywheel package off to be remade as a single custom aluminum flywheel and eliminate the need for the flexplate and spacer entirely.

Here is a pic of the backside of my flywheel:


And with it installed on the pilot bushing:


dobey MSG #123, 03-02-2011 08:38 PM
      Nice shiny new parts! Even those exhaust gaskets look good.

I don't think I ever asked, but are you opening up the heads any? I know you were wanting to rev the engine pretty high, but I don't think you're changing the lifters since you want to keep the DoD, and they limit you to about 6200 RPM. But I was still wondering if you're doing any port work on the heads to let them breathe a little better.


fieroguru MSG #124, 03-03-2011 11:44 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

I don't think I ever asked, but are you opening up the heads any? I know you were wanting to rev the engine pretty high, but I don't think you're changing the lifters since you want to keep the DoD, and they limit you to about 6200 RPM. But I was still wondering if you're doing any port work on the heads to let them breathe a little better.


I am planning to keep the heads stock for now. After it is up and running/tuned and dyno'd I may look into having them CNC ported and milled to bump the compression. As for the DoD lifters, I plan to see how tough/fragile they really are and plan to set my rev limiter around 6800 rpm. Once I frag one, I will probably just convert engine from DoD to VVT with some conventional lifters and play with that setup, but supposedly the VVT hardware will not clear the LS4 water pump. I think there is room to space the water pump away from the block some, but do not know how much room that setup would actually need.


fieroguru MSG #125, 03-03-2011 05:52 PM
      The flywheel bolts came in today!

I was able to rough mockup the flywheel/clutch/pressure plate assembly today. The spacers are 1" in length and with the recesssed boss, they are .865" above the clutch face on the flywheel. Stock is .820" and I will probably be shooting for .750" once I mill them down. But they are close enough to start the mockup process:



The face of the flywheel is about 1.675" from the bellhousing face and the splines on the clutch disk start at the clutch face and protrude further into the transmission. Since the splines on the transmission start at 1.502" and go further into the transmission, the splines should extend .173" past the spline hub on the clutch disk... this leaves plenty of room for fine tuning the depth of the flywheel w/o worry of spline engagement less than 100%.

The depth of the F40 bellhousing is about 3.505" and the pressure plate is currently protruding 3.635" from the bellhousing of the engine. So, right now the flywheel/clutch/pressure plate assy is about .130" too tall to fit within the transmission. Once the spacers are milled down, I will gain .115" of clearance taking the interferance down to .015". I want to have at least .0625" (1/16") clearance between the presssure plate and the transmission case so the .200" spacer needs to be cut down another .078" to allow the pressure plate to fit... and that will be a fairly simple fix. Pulling the flywheel .078" closer to the engine will still leave the splines of the input shaft protruding .095" past the clutch hub and still retain 100% spline engagement.

The pressure plate fingers are currently protruding 3.332". Milling the spacers and making the crank spacer thinner will make them somewhere around 3.0 to 3.1". The HTOB range of motion is from 2.675" to 3.582 with the midpoint of travel being 3.129"... so everthing looks like it will work just fine.

Now I need to make the spacer thinner, mill the pressure plate spacers and put it all back together to ensure everything clears.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-03-2011).]

Isolde MSG #126, 03-03-2011 10:21 PM
      So, is it correct to think you're relying on your black-looking pilot bushing adapter thing INSTEAD of that lip you milled off?

fieroguru MSG #127, 03-04-2011 06:38 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:

So, is it correct to think you're relying on your black-looking pilot bushing adapter thing INSTEAD of that lip you milled off?


For the most part, yes. Making the spacer thinner slides the flywheel more on the crank and less on the pilot bushing, but the vast majority of the flywheel thickness is on the pilot bushing.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-04-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #128, 03-05-2011 08:09 PM
      I ran into an issue with my non-GM pressure plate today. After performing the last round of modifications to the crank and pressure plate spacers, put it all together and figured out that the pressure plate interferes with the differential protrusion into the bellhousing. I knew it was going to be close, but was hoping it would clear.

This happened because the pressure plate is the elevated style vs. the flat and because it is larger in diameter for the 9 7/8" clutch... So I will need to use another clutch setup and sell off this one.

I know of another application with a 9 7/8" clutch that uses a more traditional pressure plate, but the bolt pattern isn't the 6 bolt uniform pattern (like the fiero), but instead a 6 bolt setup with every two bolts closer to each other. I can't use this one with my current flywheel since the clutch face edge was tapered by fidenza in between the 6 evenly spaced areas for the pressure plate to attach. Call me stubborn, but I refuse to use a 9 1/8" clutch anymore...

While I was at the lathe finishing up the work for the aluminum flywheel, I went ahead and turned the ring gear landing into my LS4/Getrag flywheel and installed the ring gear. The ring gear installs from the front side since it was designed around using a transmission mounted starter. The depth from the LS4 bellhousing to the clutch face on this flywheel is .83" right now before it is resurfaced. This puts the clutch/pressure plate in the stock location for 92-94 HTOB getrag. Now I need to drill the pressure plate pattern (stock fiero):



Started messing with the exhaust... I am planning on cutting off the large lower flange on the manifolds and just welding the exhaust directly to the manifold. Everything exhaust related is stainless and I have a couple of v-band clamps to allow the exhaust to be taken apart.

The collector portion is going to take quite a bit of work to form the oval transition to the 2 1/2" diameter.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-05-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #129, 03-06-2011 06:45 PM
      Gotta love hacking up perfectly good manifolds:



Test fitting the sections:



Template for the triangles:


I took some of the stainless 16ga exhaust tubing, flattened it and sheared it to make the triangles and then tacked them in place:



Now the front side just needs to be fully welded and smoothed:


In case you are wondering why I didn't use the factory bolt on flanges... mainly because the other half of the flanges cost $74 + the cost of the copper gaskets ($20) and the only aftermarket flanges available are mild steel. I want a 100% stainless exhaust and removing the flanges will save some weight and clean up the overall look.


dobey MSG #130, 03-06-2011 08:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
In case you are wondering why I didn't use the factory bolt on flanges... mainly because the other half of the flanges cost $74 + the cost of the copper gaskets ($20) and the only aftermarket flanges available are mild steel. I want a 100% stainless exhaust and removing the flanges will save some weight and clean up the overall look.


I'm a bit surprised you didn't just make a flange for the piping side, and buy only the gaskets. But looking good. Can't wait until I'm tacking up the exhaust for mine.


qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #131, 03-06-2011 09:07 PM
      Guru, love the work and I'm sure its worth the work to say you built them from scratch, but do you think that you will gain all that much using the LS7 manis vs. stock LS3 or a set of headers like Archie makes for his swaps. When I had Archie do my install, I had him pass me a pic of the stock mani's vs his headers. I would think the header would offer a few more ponies. BUT again, I do love the work you put in on yours.

Rob





fieroguru MSG #132, 03-07-2011 07:05 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
I'm a bit surprised you didn't just make a flange for the piping side, and buy only the gaskets. But looking good. Can't wait until I'm tacking up the exhaust for mine.


Machining stainless steel is a very slow going process, plus with a manual mill it is difficult to get precision round edges. It took a lot less time and effort to just cut the flanges off.


fieroguru MSG #133, 03-07-2011 07:33 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by qwikgta:

Guru, love the work and I'm sure its worth the work to say you built them from scratch, but do you think that you will gain all that much using the LS7 manis vs. stock LS3 or a set of headers like Archie makes for his swaps. When I had Archie do my install, I had him pass me a pic of the stock mani's vs his headers. I would think the header would offer a few more ponies. BUT again, I do love the work you put in on yours.

Rob


I considered alot of exhaust options before settling on the LS7 manifolds.
**LS4's have a complete header/crossover/downpipe setup for the FWD croud (about $700), but I didn't know how it would clear the F40 and I know the cross over pipe would not clear the LS2 intake.
**LS2/LS3 stock manifolds would also work, but I didn't like the idea of them corroding behind the heat shields, plus the heat shields are only on one side.
**Early LS1 Corvette manifolds - double wall stainless for heat and noise suppession... these were strong contenders.
**After market headers... I have had way too many cracked headers with the shorty style on the SBC's... didn't think much about avoiding them entirely.
**Custom long tube headers using a sprint car weld up kit where all the tubes are biased to the front of the engine. Add the LS1 flange, cut to fit and I would have a 3/4 length header... these kits are not sold in stainless, but this still could be an option in the future.
**LS7 factory exhaust manifolds. I am a big fan of GM's durability testing and prefer to use as many GM designed parts as possible. The LS7 manifolds are also quite compact and easily fit the fiero engine bay. The LS7 manifolds are actually hydroformed tubular stainless steel headers and fully incased in another section of stainless steel for noise and heat suppession. They work very, very well and have proven to be worth 10-25 hp compared to LS2 or LS3 manifolds. Long tube headers can out perform them, but I doubt any short runner header will. So for around $100 the LS7 manifolds provide a very durable solution that pasted GM duability tests to perform leak/crack free under 500hp conditions, they are stainless steel so they will retain their good looks, they will put minimal noise/heat put into the engine bay, they are lighter than the LS4 manifolds (before I cut the flange off), and they have been proven to work well... My question is why isn't everyone using them?

Here is a cut away pic to show you what the insides look like:


Now the LS7 manifolds are probably a little big for the a stock 5.3L, but I may choose to upgrade some cubes in the future. For reference the tube cross-sectional area at the port is about 2.37in-sq and 2.12in-sq at the collector with the primaries being about 8" in length on the inboard cylinders and about 10" on the outer ones. The DT headers are 2.40in-sq for their length, but do have primaries that are 1 1/2 to 2x as long.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-07-2011).]

Archie (archie@v8archie.com) MSG #134, 03-07-2011 08:38 AM
      I'm sure you've worked out how you're going to R&R this system once this is all welded together & in the car with all the other stuff like sway bars, A/C compressor & Intermediate shaft etc.

I can tell you for sure, It's not real easy to remove either header by it'self. Getting it thru around or over all the other stuff can be done but it would take time. I think it could be a real PITA to remove the LS7 manifold when it's permanently attached to the down pipes.

Archie


fieroguru MSG #135, 03-07-2011 02:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Archie:

I'm sure you've worked out how you're going to R&R this system once this is all welded together & in the car with all the other stuff like sway bars, A/C compressor & Intermediate shaft etc.

I can tell you for sure, It's not real easy to remove either header by it'self. Getting it thru around or over all the other stuff can be done but it would take time. I think it could be a real PITA to remove the LS7 manifold when it's permanently attached to the down pipes.

Archie


Agreed.

I am planning the v-band clamp for the front manifold to be between the oil pan and the front crossmember. The rear manifold will also have one before it merges with the front pipe before the muffler. The rest of the exhaust will then be welded solid very similar to my last SBC setup.


KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #136, 03-15-2011 09:54 AM
      what do you plan on doing for the axles?

Wasn't there a grand prix that used a 9 3/4" clutch? Maybe the turbo/282 combo, one from the early 90's.

Have you finished the getrag/ls4 flywheel?

Any other progress? I miss wrenchin. less than a month to get back at it.



Isolde MSG #137, 03-15-2011 10:38 AM
     
 
quote
My question is why isn't everyone using them?


Simple. They suck. Look how they dump. Look at the oval outlet. They're not even iron. And yours are writing checks that your LS4 can't cash. No sleeper-ness to them. No stealth value.
I've already shown that the '00-'02 F-car LS1 manifolds are a truly excellent fit. N/A, they're proven to be only 12 HP less than 1.75" long-tubes on a 400 RWHP build. Less than 12 on a 600 RWHP turbo build. They're durable, nicely styled, cheap, easy to get, and they offer heat shields on both. They can be extrude honed. Edelbrock makes tubular versions, albeit way overpriced. What's not to love?


fieroguru MSG #138, 03-15-2011 10:49 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
what do you plan on doing for the axles?

I will probably just use the hybrid tripods & Corsica/Fiero axles I made for my 4.3/F40 swap to start with.
Long term I want larger wheel bearings and associated CV splines, and will probably just get some custom axles made.

 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
Wasn't there a grand prix that used a 9 3/4" clutch? Maybe the turbo/282 combo, one from the early 90's.

Yes. But the 282 combos had a 14T x 1 spline vs. the 23T x 1" I need for the F40. The 284/3.4 TDC was a 9 3/4 23T x 1" setup, but used a pull style pressure plate. combo . I will most likely have a custom clutch made that has an OD of 10" and an ID of 6". This will maximize the clutch area on my friction surface and help improve drivability. I have already found several clutch disks that would work, but still trying to decide on the pressure plate

 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
Have you finished the getrag/ls4 flywheel?

Almost, Just needs the fiero pressure plate pattern drilled/tapped. Then I need to make the starter plate for the 92-94 HTOB getrag.

 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
Any other progress?


Not much... I ordered and now have a 12" x 2 1/8" 6061 aluminum disk to make a custom flywheel and the 10" OD/6" ID fidenza friction surface. Still working on the final flywheel design and have everything but the final thickness and the pressure plate pattern done... which I can't do until I settle on a pressure plate. Then I will go to a machine shop friend of mine with a large enough lathe to chuck up and turn my new flywheel.

I spent last weekend working on the wifes maxima and traveling out of state... but Sara and the girls are going to Chicago for about 10 days in a couple of weeks, and I plan to hit this swap pretty hard during that time.


fieroguru MSG #139, 03-15-2011 10:52 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:

Simple. They suck. Look how they dump. Look at the oval outlet. They're not even iron. And yours are writing checks that your LS4 can't cash. No sleeper-ness to them. No stealth value.
I've already shown that the '00-'02 F-car LS1 manifolds are a truly excellent fit. N/A, they're proven to be only 12 HP less than 1.75" long-tubes on a 400 RWHP build. Less than 12 on a 600 RWHP turbo build. They're durable, nicely styled, cheap, easy to get, and they offer heat shields on both. They can be extrude honed. Edelbrock makes tubular versions, albeit way overpriced. What's not to love?


Blah, Blah, Blah... Were you trying to say something?


dobey MSG #140, 03-15-2011 08:08 PM
      Hey guru, I was just wondering what you were planning to do for the shifter. Are you going to use a modified 4 speed shifter? I was thinking of making a custom shifter assembly, built like the current era shifters in the GM FWD lineup.


fieroguru MSG #141, 03-15-2011 08:51 PM
      I was planning to go the 4 speed shifter route since I have a couple of them on the shelf.

JPH87 (jphofeldt@msn.com) MSG #142, 03-16-2011 01:30 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:


Simple. They suck. Look how they dump. Look at the oval outlet. They're not even iron. And yours are writing checks that your LS4 can't cash. No sleeper-ness to them. No stealth value.
I've already shown that the '00-'02 F-car LS1 manifolds are a truly excellent fit. N/A, they're proven to be only 12 HP less than 1.75" long-tubes on a 400 RWHP build. Less than 12 on a 600 RWHP turbo build. They're durable, nicely styled, cheap, easy to get, and they offer heat shields on both. They can be extrude honed. Edelbrock makes tubular versions, albeit way overpriced. What's not to love?


You would rather have iron over stainless? wow I think guru made a good choice here the ls7 manifold is more of a header than a manifold bang for the buck I don't think you can beat them for the $100 he paid. With the way he is fabing the dumps thats going to look way cool. You would be suprised at what checks LS4's can cash with a little work.


av8fiero (crmikulski@gmail.com) MSG #143, 03-16-2011 07:51 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:


Simple. They suck. Look how they dump. Look at the oval outlet. They're not even iron. And yours are writing checks that your LS4 can't cash. No sleeper-ness to them. No stealth value.


What do you base this on? They're lighter, They're Stainless and NOT cast iron, NO v8 fiero is a sleeper, and even if they do cost a little low end punch, who cares. It's not like ANY v8 fiero ever had any trouble getting off the line. So they may be too big for a basically stock LS4, but had you read his thread completely, you would know he's planning future power upgrades for the engine. Going this route eliminates his need to design and build a second exhaust system


Tony Kania MSG #144, 03-16-2011 09:50 AM
      Guru....

Your craftsmanship is stunning. Your ideas original. And your build is just amazing.

Tony


fieroguru MSG #145, 03-16-2011 11:19 AM
      Thanks for the support and kind words guys!

Hopefully I there will be more progress pictures in a few days.


fieroguru MSG #146, 03-19-2011 02:12 PM
      I was able to stop by the junk yard and get a used clutch from the application I think will result in the largest possible clutch. The transmission was already pulled, so 6 bolts and it was mine (plus $30).
The pressure plate surface is about 9 7/8"



Here is a stock Fiero 9 1/8" clutch for a visual reference:


It was much easier to pull the F40 off the 4.3 setup (no mounts on the tranny), so I used it to take some rough measurements:


With the clutch disk on the input shaft, the flywheel face can be between 1 5/8" and 1 7/8" deep into the bell housing and retain 100% spline hub engagement as well as not make contact with the HTOB sleeve.



The pressure plate has a protruding lip by the torque bands and it is 1 1/4" from the flywheel face. This part could make contact with the differential bulge deep in the bell housing. The differential bulge at the OD of the pressure plate is about 3" to 3 1/16" deep into the bell housing.


So with the flywheel at 1 5/8" thick, and the pressure plate lip another 1 1/4" into the bell housing (2 7/8") there should be ample clearance to the differential bulge at 3". A flywheel thickness at 1 3/4" would place the place the pressure plate notch at 3.0". The clutch fingers on this clutch (with some washers on the disk to account for some wear) are at 1.75" from the flywheel surface (same as the overall depth of the pressure plate). With a 1 5/8" flywheel, the clutch fingers would be at 3.37" which is within the HTOB range of motion from 2.675" to 3.582 with the midpoint of travel being 3.129". This should give the clutch release fingers about .20” of movement to the rear as the clutch wears and about .7” of clutch release travel w/o the HTOB over extending.

This was the first clutch setup I looked into, but it will not work with my fidenza flywheel due to the pressure plate bolt pattern on the pressure plate and the machined edges of the flywheel. In this picture, one of the pressure plate bolt holes lands on the full size portion of the flywheel edge, but the other one is in the clearanced portion. So I had initially discarded this flywheel setup.


So I have decided to just make a new flywheel and ditch the flex plate/spacer/flywheel setup I currently have. These parts have already been purchased for the new flywheel:



fieroguru MSG #147, 03-19-2011 03:12 PM
      Here is a rough general shape of my new flywheel:


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #148, 03-19-2011 04:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I was able to stop by the junk yard and get a used clutch from the application I think will result in the largest possible clutch. The transmission was already pulled, so 6 bolts and it was mine (plus $30).
The pressure plate surface is about 9 7/8"





What is the application? While the large diameter will help, it certainly doesn't have a lot of friction material.
Compare it to the Fiero Store Ram clutch. (It's advertised as 9 3/4 but is really 9 5/8.) It seems to have a lot more friction material.
I'll get you a pic of the face of the pressure plate if you want.




I know that you may want something more substantial than this, but I chose it solely because of it's larger friction surface. I understand the clamping load is a bit higher too.
I wasn't happy with my Spec 2. Figure I'd go with something larger but less exotic.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 03-19-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #149, 03-19-2011 07:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

What is the application? While the large diameter will help, it certainly doesn't have a lot of friction material.
Compare it to the Fiero Store Ram clutch. (It's advertised as 9 3/4 but is really 9 5/8.) It seems to have a lot more friction material.

I know that you may want something more substantial than this, but I chose it solely because of it's larger friction surface. I understand the clamping load is a bit higher too.
I wasn't happy with my Spec 2. Figure I'd go with something larger but less exotic.



I am not sharing the application for this clutch just yet, but it is a non-GM application. It is a stock application and Spec offers a Stage 3+ version for it off the shelf. Now that I know it will fit, I want to give them a call and see what the stage 3+ version is rated for (needs to be 450 lb-ft +) and if it can be had with a spring less hub.

It would be nice for the clutch material to be wider, but it can't be w/o changing to a completely different clutch setup and the available applications with 23x1 spline and 9 7/8" diameter are very, very few. Some are ruled out due to the raised pressure plate, some because the bolt pattern for the pressure plate will not fit within the material available on the flywheel, some for price or pressure plate design (porsche).

An industrious person could mix/match the previous clutch disk I was using with a non-raised pressure plate of the needed size, but I am looking for a stock clutch/pressure plate combo that already has some upgraded versions available. I wanted to go the largest diameter possible... plus I normally take the hard way...

In the last month I have learned way more than I ever wanted to know about the various clutch/pressure plate combinations across the imports and domestic applications.


fieroguru MSG #150, 03-19-2011 07:36 PM
      I pulled the Blue 88 in and slid the engine/tranny/cradle under it to start mocking up and locating the remaining portion of the exhaust. Here are the parts for the rear most portion of the exhaust:


Yes, I know the stock fiero tips are not stainless steel and probably a restriction... but I use them on all my personal swaps, so they are staying. Once the muffler location is locked down, then the 3" inlet will be tapered to meet up with the 2 1/2" from the front. The rear manifold section will be last and the most complicated as it must taper from the LS7 manifold and then merge into the 3" section of pipe before the muffler... lots of cutting/fitting.


Bloozberry MSG #151, 03-19-2011 08:18 PM
      I keep watching with bated breath (OK, maybe popcorn breath) for the flywheel design...

Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #152, 03-19-2011 11:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I am not sharing the application for this clutch just yet, but it is a non-GM application. It is a stock application and Spec offers a Stage 3+ version for it off the shelf.
<snip>


Ahhh. Cool.

<Going back into lurk mode.>


engine man (fieroa8@gmail.com) MSG #153, 03-20-2011 08:47 AM
      Nice work just wondering why not just get a triple disc or dual disc clutch then there is no need for a flywheel just a flex plate will do

[This message has been edited by engine man (edited 03-20-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #154, 03-20-2011 10:04 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

Nice work just wondering why not just get a triple disc or dual disc clutch then there is no need for a flywheel just a flex plate will do



I plan for this swap to be my daily driver in the summer, so it must have docile street manners... you do not get that with a dual or triple disk clutch (plus a double or triple clutch will set you back $750 to $1500 vs. about $450). But for those who wanted to go that route, the 2300 ford's used in many racing applications came with the 23 x 1 spline and there are double and triple disk racing clutches available for them.


fieroguru MSG #155, 03-20-2011 03:59 PM
      Today was a good day for destruction... The test fit into the blue car showed a couple of areas that needed some additional clearancing.

As discusses a page or two ago, the factory frame notch on the driver's side was moved back 1" so it would better clear the F40:





I will leave it just tacked in place while the engine/tranny/cradle are test fitted again to verify 1" was the proper amount to move it.

Next the cradle needed some slight tweaks. The Magnaflow muffler is thicker than the Flowtech Afterburner I usually use, so I needed to clearance the rear cross-member slightly so I could raise it up more.


In addition to the rear cross-member, the factory exhaust notches in the cradle needed to be modified slightly. They were shortened about 3/8" and reshaped to better clear my exhaust pipes. This modification allows the Magnaflow muffler to fit without any modifications to the stock trunk. In this pic the bottom portion has already been cut back and the marker outline shows the amount to be removed:


The last modification was to the lower lip of the passenger cradle rail. The 2 1/2" exhaust runs within 3/8" of it and it needs more room for the enlargement to 3". I had kicked around trimming it for the entire length, but chose to just do the portion that is behind the oil pan.


After the next exhaust mockup all the cuts made today will be welded up and ground down smooth.


Bloozberry MSG #156, 03-20-2011 09:08 PM
      I'm sure you're aware, but for others that may not be, that cradle lip is just a weld-flange for easier automated spot-welding on the assembly line. You could've removed it entirely without any concerns.

Isolde MSG #157, 03-21-2011 09:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:(needs to be 450 lb-ft +)


Why?
I've seen some engine dyno sheets for some built N/A 5.3s, none even reached 440 ft-lbs.
You secretly boring yours to 5.7L?


dobey MSG #158, 03-21-2011 10:06 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Isolde:
Why?
I've seen some engine dyno sheets for some built N/A 5.3s, none even reached 440 ft-lbs.
You secretly boring yours to 5.7L?


Read the thread. He's said multiple times he will likely add N20 or turbo later on.

440 ft-lb might seem like a lot for a 5.3, but the main thing holding that back is the DoD. It's a lot easier to get up to 450 ft-lb with a stronger valvetrain that can take you up to 7000+ rpm.



fieroguru MSG #159, 03-21-2011 12:24 PM
      I have decided on a clutch.

It will be a Spec Stage 4+ (solid hub and solid ring of friction material) of the version I just test fitted. The list price is over $600, but it includes a HTOB that I will not need, so maybe I can get the cost down some.

Yes the clutch is alittle overkill at the moment, but wanted to make sure it would hold any future upgrades (NOS, Turbo, stroker kit, or a 6.0, 6.2).


Bloozberry MSG #160, 03-21-2011 05:32 PM
      Ooooooo... I hope for you it's streetable. That's a lot of cashoolah if it turns out to be chattery at anything but higher rev clutch dumps. What's SPEC say about the holding power of it?

fieroguru MSG #161, 03-21-2011 05:59 PM
      I have put a combined 45K miles on my SBC/Getrag setup with a Spec Stage 2+, Stage 3 and Stage 3+ so. These were 9 1/8" and while the Stage 2+ had the absolute best street manners, it wouldn't hold. I chose that clutch after trying the Stage 3 (sprung 6 puck). It would hold the power, but sucked with driving it daily in stop/go traffic. The stage 3+ had street manners much closer to the stage 2+ and would hold the power. Here are some generic pictures to show the difference between the Spec Stage 3 and the Spec Stage 3+



The Stage 3 was developed to improve the street manners of the Stage 3 series while still having excellent holding power.

The Clutch I am going with is a Stage 4+. The only difference between the stage 3+ and Stage 4+ is the solid hub vs. the spring hub. My old SBC setup was solid mounted and the LS4/F40 setup will be rubber isolated, so that should help smooth out the engagement. Also the 9 7/8" diameter vs the 9 1/8" should also help smooth the engagement as well... only one way to know for sure.

For the guys looking for a less aggressive clutch, Spec offers this clutch in all their various stages (which are much cheaper). AC Delco also offers a kevlar disk version as well, and Autozone sells a stock and heavier duty one (higher clamp load pressure plate).

The downside of this clutch is it will require a custom flywheel... but that is part of the F40 challenge in general.


fieroguru MSG #162, 03-21-2011 06:07 PM
      LS4/F40 is back in for more test fits...

The relocated frame notch is going to workout just fine:



Here is the clearance to the decklid hinge box... but the water pump isn't on the engine.


Both hinge boxes are being removed. I got the idea from Jefrysuko at the 25th and hope to have that modification done in the next week. So with them going away, my aluminum firewall panel will also need to be removed and replaced:


Here is a very rough mockup of the exhaust as it would exit the rear.


Wednesday this week the wife and girls are going to Chicago to visit family for 10 days! The lack of daddy duties and noise/fume curfews for 10 days should really help speed things up a great deal!



fieroguru MSG #163, 03-23-2011 07:38 PM
      Here are a couple more progress pics to show how the exhaust will be routing:



It is 2 1/2" coming from under the oil pan, into a flex coupler then to 3" mandrel bend into the muffler. The rear bank will come down and merge into the 3" section prior to the muffler... that one will take some time.


rcp builders MSG #164, 03-23-2011 09:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I have decided on a clutch.

It will be a Spec Stage 4+ (solid hub and solid ring of friction material) of the version I just test fitted. The list price is over $600, but it includes a HTOB that I will not need, so maybe I can get the cost down some.

Yes the clutch is alittle overkill at the moment, but wanted to make sure it would hold any future upgrades (NOS, Turbo, stroker kit, or a 6.0, 6.2).


Hey Guru,

First, great work!!!

Second, I have the spec 4+ with the springless hub and solid disc material. It is a very streetable clutch, it does like a little rev (maybe 1700) but will engage
very smooth with that. G/L Ray



Ruffy MSG #165, 03-23-2011 10:13 PM
      unreal motor build! there is easier ways of getting 400 hp though hahaha. but seems like you got a good head on your shoulders and know what you are doing. very nice build! i cant wait to hear it and see it run on youtube or in person.

engine man (fieroa8@gmail.com) MSG #166, 03-24-2011 01:42 AM
      this is a great thread and a top notch build . in the futuer do you see your self having the block sleved to a bigger bore i know Darton can bring it out to 4.250

fieroguru MSG #167, 03-24-2011 07:50 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by engine man:

this is a great thread and a top notch build . in the futuer do you see your self having the block sleved to a bigger bore i know Darton can bring it out to 4.250


I probably will not mess with resleeving the block. If decide to increase cubes, I might stroke it or just get a 6.0 or 6.2 short block. The LS4 block is actually longer than the LS4, so there is room to put a 3/16 to 1/4" adapter plate on the RWD block without increasing the overall width of the engine/transmission. You still need to shorten the crank 3mm at the flywheel and 10mm on the font, but I could drop a RWD block in with minimal rework of the existing setup.

Fuel efficiency at interstate speeds is a primary goal for this swap, so there is a better chance I would add a turbo (in the rear where the muffler is) vs. adding cubes...


dobey MSG #168, 03-24-2011 10:24 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I probably will not mess with resleeving the block. If decide to increase cubes, I might stroke it or just get a 6.0 or 6.2 short block. The LS4 block is actually longer than the LS4, so there is room to put a 3/16 to 1/4" adapter plate on the RWD block without increasing the overall width of the engine/transmission. You still need to shorten the crank 3mm at the flywheel and 10mm on the font, but I could drop a RWD block in with minimal rework of the existing setup.

Fuel efficiency at interstate speeds is a primary goal for this swap, so there is a better chance I would add a turbo (in the rear where the muffler is) vs. adding cubes...


If you do increase the cubes with an LS2/3 block, you could just swap in the LS4 crank instead of machining the RWD crank. All the LSx cranks are the same stroke, save the 4.8 and 7.0 engines which are slightly shorter or longer, respectively. If you want to stroke it, then machining the ends on an LS7 crank is probably the best bet, unless you want to spend the $$$ and go for a forged crank.



fieroguru MSG #169, 03-25-2011 03:49 PM
      Tacked the muffler to the cradle in its proper position so I can fabricate the rear manifold tube on the bench vs. under the car.



After it was tacked, I put the cradle back in the chassis to confirm the placement clears the truck... by about 3/8":


Then it was back on the table and ended up with this merge section:





In the morning I will travel about 2 hrs from here and machine a custom aluminum LS4/F40 flywheel.


dobey MSG #170, 03-25-2011 04:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
After it was tacked, I put the cradle back in the chassis to confirm the placement clears the truck... by about 3/8":


Not a whole lot of room there. What are you planning for a heat shield? does it clear with the stock heat shield?


fieroguru MSG #171, 03-25-2011 08:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
Not a whole lot of room there. What are you planning for a heat shield? does it clear with the stock heat shield?


I am thinking about taking some of the left over 3" exhaust pipe and weld a heat shield to that corner of the muffler leaving about 1/8" between the tubing and the muffler.


fieroguru MSG #172, 03-25-2011 08:11 PM
      Here is my flywheel design:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-25-2011).]

Bloozberry MSG #173, 03-25-2011 08:36 PM
      We'll have to see about gettin' this thread moved over to the Construction Zone... it meets all the criteria and it's about time.

fieroguru MSG #174, 03-26-2011 06:00 AM
      Sig Test



fieroguru MSG #175, 03-26-2011 07:40 PM
      After about 4 hrs on the road and 6 hrs running a large lathe... phase 1 of the flywheel fabrication is complete:




With the wear strip just sitting in place:


My new favorite tool. When I decide to buy a house again and get back to a 3000sq-ft garage, I am going to get me one of these bad boys. It was a lot more fun using it vs. my dinky southbend lathe.




On Sunday I will get the flywheel setup in the mill and drill the crank, pressure plate and friction plate patterns.


dobey MSG #176, 03-26-2011 08:47 PM
      Nice! Is the distance from the block to the ring gear going the same on your new custom flywheel, as with the stock LS4 flexplate?

I was looking at a 10" benchtop lathe today at Harbor Freight myself, as a means to machine a custom shifter and maybe some other small things.But it was like $500 so I'll pas for now. Should get a small hydraulic scissor lift first, to make working on my cars much easier.


Bloozberry MSG #177, 03-26-2011 09:00 PM
      Me likey. This by far seems to be the best design for the F40. Certainly a better design than the flex plate/spacer/flywheel idea. The countersunk hub is going to make finding suitable flywheel bolts easy too, heck, you could use bolts with full thickness heads. Great pics!

Edit: What's it weigh with the wear lining?

[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 03-26-2011).]

katatak MSG #178, 03-26-2011 09:29 PM
      I've said it before and I'll say it again - Amazing work! Your threads and Blooz's thread keep me inspired! Thanks again for sharing all your great work.

Now, on a side note, I just finished a "rehab" of my SBC Coupe. Rebuilt 350 - 030 over - nothing crazy - just a nice clean running engine. It is a 70 4-bolt main motor out of a Monte - rated @ 300 HP in it's stock form - I'm hoping for 330 plus? It's bolted to a 4 spd. After taking it for a few "spins" over the last couple days, I think I am going to have clutch issues - it's a Ram clutch. I'm just wondering what you would suggest for an upgrade. Sounds like the 3+ may be the way to go? It's not a daily driver - mostly a play toy that will go through a few transitions over the next year. Future plans are for some aftermarket injection setups, updated heads, etc. I want to build it in steps just to see which does what and what the gains/losses are for each. I guess it's a "test" bed for fun! Thanks in advance.

Pat


fieroguru MSG #179, 03-27-2011 07:59 AM
      Thanks for the compliments guys!

This flywheel was designed specifically around the LS4/F40 combination, so I kept the placement of the LS4 ring gear from the flex plate the same. I used the aluminum LT1 Fidanza flywheel as a guide for contour, material thickness and material type and tried to replicate it as much as possible. I also used used a fidanza friction plate (#221021 6" ID x 10 1/4" OD, #221091 is 6" x 10" and would work better with smaller ID clutches).

The 12 x 2 1/8" aluminum tipped the scales around 27 lbs, but after the first round of machining was down to 8 lbs. The friction plate, its bolts and the ring gear will bring the weight back up some, but it will probably be around 12 lbs. The ring gear weighs 2 lbs, but I have not weighed the friction plate/bolts... and I need to remove quite a bit more aluminum for the counter sunk friction plate bolts. In stock form, my clutch combo is supposed to be 18 lbs vs. the 16lbs of the stock fiero 2.8 setup

I should have taken this route at the very beginning...

For a Fiero SBC/Getrag combo, I found that the Stage 3+ was the best well rounded clutch for holding power and drivability. While I have never had a single Spec clutch failure, there have been many examples of failures due to the spring popping out of the hubs. So if you want to eliminate that issue, the stage 4+ is the same clutch as a stage 3+, just with a solid hub vs. sprung hub.


fieroguru MSG #180, 03-28-2011 02:07 PM
      All that is left to do on the flywheel is to tap the 6 pressure plate holes and purchase/install the ring gear. After the flywheel had its center dial indicated, all the holes were drilled via X-Y coordinates from the print. For the wear strip I put it in place and used a sharpie to mark the general locations of the holes to help validate proper hole placement. When drilling 29 holes and each hole has and X and Y coordinate to the X.XXXX values... it is easy to transpose or misread the values.


[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-28-2011).]

dobey MSG #181, 03-28-2011 04:58 PM
      That is one nice looking flywheel.

Bloozberry MSG #182, 03-28-2011 06:25 PM
      VERY nice! But I can't help thinking you're hiding a blooper under that paperwork there guru Next stop balancing?

fieroguru MSG #183, 03-29-2011 01:33 AM
      Here is a pic after I installed the alignment pins:


Ordered the ring gear, but can't do much else flywheel related until it shows up, so decided to be a little destructive while watching some TV:
Stock LS4 harness:


After a couple of shows:


I will not be needing the TCM or the transmission connector, so I didn't take the time to take them apart... just cut them.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-29-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #184, 03-29-2011 05:02 PM
      Made some progress on the rear exhaust...



There will be two ring clamps that connect the exhaust to the manifolds. Here is the one in front:


And the one in the rear will go here:




fieroguru MSG #185, 03-29-2011 09:11 PM
      Got the fuel injector portion of the harness done. I will wire tie it up close to the fuel rail when it is installed to keep it tucked mostly out of sight.


av8fiero (crmikulski@gmail.com) MSG #186, 03-29-2011 11:17 PM
      Awesome work. I'm envious of your machinist skills. I do have a question on your exhaust system. From your pics it seems that the rear exhaust manifold will be solidly fastened to the remainder of the exhaust system with only the front exhaust manifold and it's downpipe isolated from the remainder of the system with a flex joint. Are you planning on another flexjoint immediately after the merge? If not are you concerned about any vibration/buzzing and/or any stress cracking over time?


Good luck with your build and may your project go as smoothly as your work is elegant


fieroguru MSG #187, 03-30-2011 06:36 AM
      Thanks for the compliment!

The rear manifold will be solid to the muffler back section. There will be two supporting arms that will come off the rear engine/transmission mounts to support the tail end of the exhaust and allow the exhaust to move with the engine/transmission vs. being mounted to the stationary cradle.


av8fiero (crmikulski@gmail.com) MSG #188, 03-30-2011 08:17 AM
      Ok. I'm wondering then why you used the flex for the front manifold/downpipe. If the whole exhaust system is going to float with the engine is the flex even necessary?

1fatcat MSG #189, 03-30-2011 08:39 AM
      Lookin' good! Any idea what that flywheel weighs?

I'm a little confused on the issue of the flex section too. If you'r running the exhaust to move with the engine flex, are you concerned about what the tail pipe tips will be doing when you rug it? A half inch movement at the engine may translate to an inch or three at the tips.

[This message has been edited by 1fatcat (edited 03-30-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #190, 03-30-2011 09:26 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 1fatcat:

Lookin' good! Any idea what that flywheel weighs?

I'm a little confused on the issue of the flex section too. If you'r running the exhaust to move with the engine flex, are you concerned about what the tail pipe tips will be doing when you rug it? A half inch movement at the engine may translate to an inch or three at the tips.



Without the ring gear the flywheel is just under 10 lbs. So once the ring gear is added, it should be between 11 and 12 lbs.

While the engine is rubber isolated, the mounts are quite stiff (front A-arm suspension bushings from a mid 70's camaro) and spaced quite a bit apart, so I am not expecting much defelction, maybe +/- 1" of movement at the tips. Under acceleration the tips will lower and while engine braking the tips will raise. There will be atleast 2" of clearance between the tips and the fascia.


fieroguru MSG #191, 03-30-2011 09:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by av8fiero:

Ok. I'm wondering then why you used the flex for the front manifold/downpipe. If the whole exhaust system is going to float with the engine is the flex even necessary?


To keep the manifolds from cracking. If the front & rear manifolds are connected w/o a flexible joint, as the exhaust heats up and expands it will push the manifolds away from each other. This puts quite a bit of stress on the primary's and the manifold flange and leads to cracking (learned this from my SBC swap).


dobey MSG #192, 03-30-2011 10:02 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
To keep the manifolds from cracking. If the front & rear manifolds are connected w/o a flexible joint, as the exhaust heats up and expands it will push the manifolds away from each other. This puts quite a bit of stress on the primary's and the manifold flange and leads to cracking (learned this from my SBC swap).


I wonder if that's a problem with the hydroformed LS7 manifolds though. No harm in being cautious of course, but the LS7 manifolds do seem a bit beefier.


1fatcat MSG #193, 03-30-2011 10:14 AM
      I'm sure it would take it's toll on the manifold bolts at least, they won't take that kind of pressure for long.

fieroguru MSG #194, 03-30-2011 10:50 PM
      Spent some more time on the harness simplification. Since the coils were relocated, I had little use for the unsightly coil sub-harnesses, so I took them apart and wired up each coil individually. The first 4" or so from the connector was wrapped in heat shrink insulation to protect the wires and make the harness as small as possible when the individual coil wires come off the main harness along the bellhousing area. I also use a black sharpie to put the cylinder # on the internal portion of the connector.
Before:

After:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-30-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #195, 04-02-2011 07:39 PM
      Ring gear is now installed:



I took it to the same place I dyno'd my SBC fiero to have the balance checked and it came out nearly perfect... no need to remove any additional material to balance it.

Using the wife's new 30 lb digital postal scale, this flywheel weighs 11.2 lbs with the 6 pressure plate bolts. The stock version of my clutch/pressure plate combo weighs 18.4 lbs + the 11.2 lbs for the flywheel = 29.6lbs for flywheel/clutch combo. For comparison, a stock 2.8 fiero setup is about 15 lbs for the flywheel and 15.6 lbs for the clutch/pressure plate = 30.65 lbs. Stock 2000 LS1 is 24 lbs for the flywheel and 32 lbs for the clutch/pressure plate = 56 lbs and this weight is spread over a 2" larger diameter. So this LS4/F40 flywheel/clutch combo will have a very similar weight as the stock 2.8 setup and about 26 lbs less than the RWD setup.

I was also able to finish the rear collector. Maybe on Sunday I will get the V-band clamp installed and the rest of the exhaust welded up.


Bloozberry MSG #196, 04-02-2011 07:51 PM
      Very slick flywheel... hard to believe it was a chunk of 6061 Al only a few short days ago. What are you using to attach the wear plate to the flywheel? They look like Phillips head countersinkable bolts. Where did you get them, what grade are they, what torque did you put on the nuts, and did you find it hard to torque the nuts properly with only the Phillips drive to hold them still?

fieroguru MSG #197, 04-02-2011 08:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

Very slick flywheel... hard to believe it was a chunk of 6061 Al only a few short days ago. What are you using to attach the wear plate to the flywheel? They look like Phillips head countersinkable bolts. Where did you get them, what grade are they, what torque did you put on the nuts, and did you find it hard to torque the nuts properly with only the Phillips drive to hold them still?


They came supplied with the fidanza wear strip, so I can't comment on their details, but I assume they have been proven to work. The nuts have a serration on the backside to prevent them from working loose. The instructions that came with the wear strip specified to torque them to 7lb-ft. I used a vice to hold the flywheel while I use a screw driver to hold one side and an in-lb torque wrench on the other side. My original fidanza flywheel had the counter bores for these bolts at 1/2" in diameter but none of my sockets would fit down in the holes, so I used 5/8" on mine.

I am sure you are aware, but for the others, this is the amount of work that went into this flywheel. Each box is a just 1 step in the process.


BTW, I sent you an email.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-02-2011).]

Bloozberry MSG #198, 04-02-2011 09:14 PM
      You my friend, are a gentleman and a scholar.

1fatcat MSG #199, 04-02-2011 09:26 PM
      Fieroguru, that is a work of art! Nice weight too! I have replaced the fidanza plates before, there was no problems holding the philips head for me either. My plate also came with fasteners, and they looked to be of high grade. I like to use loc-tite on the threads too, just because those are not the kind of bolts you want comming loose.

fieroguru MSG #200, 04-06-2011 07:18 PM
      Work has kept me pretty busy, but I was able to do some work on the swap today. Installed the MLS exhaust gaskets to ensure proper manifold placement, installed the 2nd and last v-band and started to clean up the welds. The end product will be 3 pieces: two manifolds/downpipes and a single Y pipe/muffler/tail pipe section.




The next step is to slide the engine/tranny/cradle back under the car and finish welding the flexible section, the 3" section going into the muffler and the two tail pipes.


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #201, 04-07-2011 07:33 AM
      Could I ask what your material costs for the flywheel were in total?

fieroguru MSG #202, 04-07-2011 10:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Could I ask what your material costs for the flywheel were in total?


The materials cost was $160.63 for the aluminum, wear strip and ring gear.

I scored the aluminum 2 1/8" thick, 12" disk on ebay for under $100 shipped, the friction surface also came from ebay for $50 shipped and the ring gear was about $16 shipped from Amazon (wife is a Amazon Prime member = free shipping).

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-07-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #203, 04-07-2011 06:32 PM
      [Sidetrack]
I came across a truck water pump for $5 + shipping and was curious how it would interfere, and since I haven't seen these before in any of the other LS4 threads I decided to share them here.

I needed to disconnect the rear engine mount to slide the water pump in place... the engine moved less than 1/16" with the 3 other mounts holding it in place. I also had to remove the cam sensor since this water pump sits right on top of the sensor hole. After those two parts are removed, the water pump then hits the bolt boss for the cam sensor and keeps the water pump about 1/4" to 3/8" from the block face. If you were to mill down the boss and clearance the timing cover slightly, then the water pump would sit flat, but I an not sure the cam sensor would ever clear the water pump (maybe it could be notched, or you could switch the the RWD timing cover... but then you may need to switch ecm calibrations and you might lose DoD):



There is about 1/16" between the balancer and the bottom of the water pump... not a show stopper since you can't use the LS4 balancer anyway:


Side profile shot to show the relative depths of the balancer and the water pump pulley. Granted the Camaro/Vette pumps have the deeper pulleys, but the LS4 balancer protrudes about 2 3/4" from the block face and the RWD water pump body when mounted flat against the block protrudes about 2 3/4" as well. So the outer edge of the belt driver will be in the 3 3/4 to 4" range from the face of the engine, which is beyond the capabilities of the LS4 balancer... so it would need to be replaced with a RWD balancer.




One of the larger challenges is the thermostat housing that protrudes out even further right where the frame rail is pinching in. What I was pondering is just cutting the entire left side of the pump off after the mounting bolts/engine coolant passage and then welding on a new pump inlet that went down and under the balancer to the passenger side coolant tube. They you would also need to weld a thermostat housing to the coolant outlet at the top of the pump. Since the pump protrudes about the same distance as the LS4 balancer, it probably would just barely clear the frame rail... the the pulley is another story.




From the pictures above, if you put the belt drive at 3 3/4" to 4" a frame notch on the passenger side is going to be required... unless you move the drivetrain about 1" to the driver side which will require a frame notch on that side with the F40, but maybe not on other transmissions.

The other thing to take note of is the pump pulley is centered (vertically) between the outer most water pump bolts. With the engine as low as reasonably possible, the top of the frame rail is level with the bottom most water pump bolt. So if the engine was slightly higher a custom pulley could be designed to help it clear a slightly modified frame rail. This pulley would need to have a very small diameter above the frame rail and then enlarge for the belt portion.

So what does this all mean... I think there is a remote possibility that a significantly modified RWD pump could be used for the LS4 application. To do so it would probably be best to mount the engine about 1" higher than mine and about 1" further to the driver side to avoid a passenger side frame notch, but with the F40 you would be notching the driver side, with some of the other transmissions you might be able to avoid the driver side frame notch. Doing this drive-train shift should also allow the drive-train to clear the passenger side deck-lid hinge box. This water pump may require changing the timing cover and cam sensor location as well... and unlike my modified LS4 water pump housing that has a removable water pump insert, the RWD water pumps are replaced as an assembly. So once you modify it, you are locked into using that housing and when the water pump goes out you will either have to repeat the modification process or rebuild your modified housing.

The nice thing with the RWD pump is the modifications to it are probably less extensive than what I did on the LS4 pump housing and you end up with WAY more room to put the AC and Alternator on the front side of the engine. When I get bored or inspired I might start hacking into this RWD pump... but the last thing I need right now are more distractions/delays to finishing my current setup.

[/Sidetrack]



Bloozberry MSG #204, 04-07-2011 07:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

... but the last thing I need right now are more distractions/delays to finishing my current setup.



Now get to work!


fieroguru MSG #205, 04-09-2011 01:13 PM
      Put the engine/trans/cradle back in the chassis to located and tack weld the rest of the exhaust system:


Then took it back out again to work on the exhaust hangers:


Installed the sway bar just to make sure the new hangers will clear the motion of the sway bar:


Then quiet time came, so I have to wait till after naps to start fabricating the exhaust hangers.

I found a guy on ebay that sells heat shrink tubing on Ebay in 20 foot lengths, so for about $16 shipped I go 20' of 1/8, 3/16 and 1/4.


88GTS (avanvuuren@shaw.ca) MSG #206, 04-09-2011 06:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I found a guy on ebay that sells heat shrink tubing on Ebay in 20 foot lengths, so for about $16 shipped I go 20' of 1/8, 3/16 and 1/4.


That's a very good price! Please share your eBay source.


fieroguru MSG #207, 04-09-2011 07:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 88GTS:


That's a very good price! Please share your eBay source.


eBay member: redgriffinthree
Here is one of my auctions:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBay...geName=STRK:MEWNX:IT


fieroguru MSG #208, 04-09-2011 07:59 PM
      The exhaust hangers are done!

The idea is for the exhaust to rock back and forth with the engine (engine will not move much, but it will move), so I wanted the exhaust hangers to attach to the drivetrain and then cantilever out over the sway bar to support the muffler and tail pipe section. The hangers needed to allow for a slight amount of movement to the rear and to the driver side for thermal expansion, but still solidly hold the muffler/tail pipes.

I decided to make some stainless steel hangers from some of the left over exhaust pipe (16ga). Flatten it, cut it to shape and then weld it to the exhaust tubes. The 16ga material should allow some thermal expansion movement.



Then it was a matter of making the long brackets that would connect to the drive train. For the tranny side, the transmission case bolts around the differential were in the right general location, so I used them. The material is the "L" section I removed from the rear crossmember for muffler clearance. I did have to weld on a bracket to pickup the 2nd differential bolt and weld on the end piece that will attach to the stainless tabs on the exhaust. Using an angle section on this side will allow the bracket to rotate slightly to accommodate some expansion between the two rear hangers.



The passenger side one is just some 1x1 square tubing welded to the rear engine mount bracket and the tab welded to the end to connect to the stainless steel tab.



Now I can break the tack welds holding the muffler in place and remove the exhaust for the finish welding. The lower section of the exhaust is held in place with 4 bolts. 1 bolt on each V-band clamps and the 2 bolts at the tail pipe hangers... it will be rather quick to remove this in the future... my old SBC swap had 6 safety wired bolts and 2 hanger bolts and it took some time to remove.


Bloozberry MSG #209, 04-09-2011 08:53 PM
      Wouldn't it have been easier to weld smaller brackets to your rear cradle cross-member and suspend the muffler with springs like the OEM Fiero?

fieroguru MSG #210, 04-09-2011 10:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

Wouldn't it have been easier to weld smaller brackets to your rear cradle cross-member and suspend the muffler with springs like the OEM Fiero?


What is this "easier" word you are referring to... not sure I know what that means.

I am probably overly concerned about it, but with the flex pipe isolating the front manifold, the rear manifold is going to take the majority of any load from the muffler/tail pipe section bouncing around, so I was focused on minimizing it. If I had left the flex joint out, then it would have been shared between the two manifolds and then the springs would have probably worked just fine.


fieroguru MSG #211, 04-11-2011 07:38 PM
      My first thread deemed worthy enough for the construction zone!!!!

My blue 88 clone has been running 88 front springs in the rear since 2009 and a member asked me to make him a set up the upper spring hats. I did a poor job documenting them when I made the original set, so here are some build pics:







And the assembly process:



Notice the black strut bushing has been flipped over to gain an additional 1" of travel in compression (for lowered cars)

The original upper spring hat keeps the new one in position:



Now why would you want to do this... It is a cheap way to lower the 88's and get an approximate 35% increase in spring rate. Just use the 84-87 front springs up front (remove 1 1/2 to 2 1/4 coils... depending on how low you want it), then take your front 88 springs, cut 1 coil off and install them in the rear with this new upper spring hat. The end result is a stance very similar to this one (24.6" diameter tires):

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-11-2011).]

blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #212, 04-11-2011 08:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

Wouldn't it have been easier to weld smaller brackets to your rear cradle cross-member and suspend the muffler with springs like the OEM Fiero?



 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


What is this "easier" word you are referring to... not sure I know what that means.




Blooz,
You'd have to know Paul to fully understand but, I can assure you, whatever he does may not be the easy path but, it will hold together. Yeah, he's a bit nutty also.



Bloozberry MSG #213, 04-11-2011 09:21 PM
      Ha! (I refuse to use LOL). I've seen the weird things he does to perfectly serviceable water pumps, Blackrams... I know he's nutty.

By the way Guru, welcome to your new home in the Contruction Zone! This thread is certainly worth it (Of course that means that all the rest of us are going to have to work a little harder to stay on page 1 given the daily updates you keep pumping out).


fieroguru MSG #214, 04-16-2011 11:47 AM
      The exhaust is all welded up now. Just need to add the O2 bung and the stainless heat shield for the muffler/trunk area.


Then I played with the flywheel to confirm it fits the engine and the clutch combo will clear the transmission:


Test fit of old clutch:


In the transmission. I was able to spin the engine over about 10 times by hand w/o any rubbing/scraping:


I had plug an o-ring on the input shaft to see how deep the clutch hub rests on the shaft... about 1":


So on Monday I will call up SPEC and order my clutch... it's about $600.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-02-2016).]

fieroguru MSG #215, 04-16-2011 01:34 PM
      Boxed in the muffler notch in the cradle:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-16-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #216, 04-18-2011 07:54 PM
      I ordered the 10mm plug wires, the coil terminals and the wire separators. So far the wire separators are the only parts that have come in:


Been thinking about the AC and Alternator mounting for quite some time and think I have it figured out. First order of business was to mock up a relatively stiff upper support to hold the AC compressor in the right general location so I could finalize the bottom and backside mounting points. Also used my angle pulley alignment tool to ensure the AC compressor was at the proper depth:



I picked up some metric nuts, then tuned one down to fit inside a tube (a section of an 88 trailing link tube), welded it in place and then turned the weld down smooth. I had to mill a flat on the back side to clear the thicker portion of the front engine bracket. This tube will act as the lower AC compressor mount. It is just tack welded to the front engine bracket, but it will be fully welded:



For the rear mount, I am planning to weld a nut into a 1x1 square tube and then cut its legs to fit up against the thick portion of the front engine mount:


The front engine mount will also have a lower strap that will go under the AC compressor and support the bottom side of the LS4 alternator. Then I will go back and remake the upper bracket that goes above the AC compressor and it will connect to the top set of bolts on the Alternator.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-18-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #217, 04-23-2011 06:32 PM
      The plug wires and coil terminals showed up last week, and I ordered the Spec Stage 4+ clutch on Wednesday...

The rear A/C support boss is tacked into place and that restores the AC compressor to 3 points of attachment just like stock:


I decided to stick with the LS4 alternator and incorporate the top portion of the bracket with the 1/8" plate that supports the AC bracket. So I bent some more 1/8" material, bent it a couple of times to provide some stiffness and clear the engine block, then tack it to the upper AC bracket:





The nuts for mounting the Alternator will be welded to the back side of the bracket and a small gusset will be added to the belt side to close off the nut area. The bottom bracket will be similar and come from under the AC compressor to attach to the alternator.

Since, the alternator could now hold itself into position, the water pump and the last idler (just held in place with a magnetic base) were installed to show the final belt routing. I will find a smaller diameter idler for the one between the Alternator and AC. The balancer, alternator and AC compressor all have quite a bit of wrap, so there should not be any issue with belt slippage.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-23-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #218, 04-26-2011 05:15 PM
      The clutch arrived today! The list price was $639, but I was able to get it for $575 shipped through LMPerformance.com. This is the 2nd most expensive part for this swap ($749 for the Camshaft kit was #1) excluding the original purchase price the engine...





The clutch disk measures at 9 13/16" at the friction material (listed as a 10" clutch) and is one of the largest diameter clutches you can get for this application w/o mixing/matching disks and pressure plates or getting into some trick self adjusting pressure plates.

It weighs in at 16.52 lbs on the wife's 30 lb postal scales, so the combined flywheel/clutch/pressure plate will be 27.7lbs... which is about 15 lbs lighter (and the flywheel about 1" smaller diameter) than my old SBC flywheel/clutch/pressure plate setup or about 35% lighter... that should help free up some more whp!

The other bit of good news is I might have my 4T65E-HD sold for $650 and that should offset the hit to the wallet from the clutch.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-26-2011).]

dobey MSG #219, 04-26-2011 06:16 PM
      Nice. I still need to figure out a flywheel/clutch solution for mine.

fieroguru MSG #220, 04-26-2011 07:36 PM
      More progress on the Alternator bracket. I still need to weld this lower plate into the front engine mount/AC bracket and notch the cradle directly under the bracket to allow 1/4" movement, but it is starting to take shape:





I found the sister to the more rounded pulley off the balancer and used it for the AC/Alternator idler. Then figured out where it needed to be for clearance all around and drilled the upper plate for the idler. Then a scrap belt was clamped together to show the final accessory drive. I will cut the belt at the clamp, measure the length and pickup a new belt:


Also, started messing around with intermediate shafts. Originally, I had planned to just use the custom tripods I made for the SBC/F40 swap, but the Passenger side tripod will not clear the side of the block (Y-block construction strikes again and the F40's axle location is closer to the block). So I will probably use the modified tripod/corsica axle on the driver side (short axle) and then use a stock G6/F40 Driver side axle on the passenger side with a longer custom intermediate shaft. I had picked up a couple of Saab 9-3 intermediate shafts and will cut them apart, machine a hollow sleeve to go inside, press them back together and weld them together at the seam and 4 plug welds on both sides of the main seam. The wall thickness of the intermediate shafts is about 4mm and the I.D is about 1.45"... so I will turn down some 1.5" tubing to make the inner sleeve.
Here are the two shafts with one already cut apart:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-26-2011).]

katatak MSG #221, 04-26-2011 11:04 PM
      Your work always amazes me Guru and now all my favorite threads are in the smae place!

Pat


mptighe MSG #222, 04-27-2011 06:13 PM
      fieroguru,

Since you helped me with some info, I'd like to repay the favor. I found a place to send the F40's in for cryo and WPC treating. If you want, they'll also order and install a Quaife LSD for you. The owner Dave says it will make the tranny easily hold 450 lb tq. He's done a bunch of them for Archie over the past couple of years. Anyway, if you're interested then you can find their contact info in my thread here... Not trying to hijack your thread, keep up the good work!

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/085180-2.html#p62


fieroguru MSG #223, 04-27-2011 06:19 PM
      Accessory drive went from this:


To this:


114" belt to 80" belt
5 idlers, reduced to 3
Alternator up top at rear of engine to down low at front
PS pump from up top to in trash can (actually just sitting on the shelf)
Lots of stuff visible on top, to just the new tension idler

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-27-2011).]

dobey MSG #224, 04-27-2011 09:24 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mptighe:
fieroguru,

Since you helped me with some info, I'd like to repay the favor. I found a place to send the F40's in for cryo and WPC treating. If you want, they'll also order and install a Quaife LSD for you. The owner Dave says it will make the tranny easily hold 450 lb tq. He's done a bunch of them for Archie over the past couple of years. Anyway, if you're interested then you can find their contact info in my thread here... Not trying to hijack your thread, keep up the good work!

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/085180-2.html#p62


Honestly, I think installing an LSD will probably do more harm than good, if one intends to drive the car excessively hard (fast shifting, landing back near peak tq). And especially if one has good, sticky tires on good suspension. It is much more likely for stuff to break in that condition, since the LSD actually prevents slip from happening, where it would be useful.


fieroguru MSG #225, 04-27-2011 10:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mptighe:

fieroguru,

Since you helped me with some info, I'd like to repay the favor. I found a place to send the F40's in for cryo and WPC treating. If you want, they'll also order and install a Quaife LSD for you. The owner Dave says it will make the tranny easily hold 450 lb tq. He's done a bunch of them for Archie over the past couple of years. Anyway, if you're interested then you can find their contact info in my thread here... Not trying to hijack your thread, keep up the good work!

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...ML/085180-2.html#p62


Thanks for the info, and am sure a few will find it useful.

Cryo treating transmissions has been around for quite some time and has been done to getrags and isuzu's with favorable results, but I am not convinced the F40 needs any additional upgrading. I fully expect to shear off the stock fiero outer CV at the wheel bearing hub before the F40 will give up the ghost, so it doesn't really make since to throw more $$ at the transmission unless I am going to do the same for the axles... and the axles really would need to come first. If/when I frag my first F40, I will look at doing something different, but until then dropping any additional $$$ into an essentially disposable transmission w/o any real proof of them being failure prone to begin with just isn't in my budget nor in the scope of my engine swap.



dobey MSG #226, 04-28-2011 10:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I fully expect to shear off the stock fiero outer CV at the wheel bearing hub before the F40 will give up the ghost, so it doesn't really make since to throw more $$ at the transmission unless I am going to do the same for the axles... and the axles really would need to come first.


Speaking of axles, have you figured out what solution you're going with there yet? Also, going with a half-shaft should help a bit too, since the axles should be much closer in length at that point.


fieroguru MSG #227, 04-28-2011 01:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
Speaking of axles, have you figured out what solution you're going with there yet? Also, going with a half-shaft should help a bit too, since the axles should be much closer in length at that point.


My problem is I think about stuff too much...

Longterm, I want to stuff some wide wheels in the back and want to upgrade the bearings/CV's and would prefer to run a 4 3/4" pattern (cheap/wide wheels). In looking at the stock 88 rear upright, I noticed that the bolt pattern for the bearing is not centered in the raised portions of the casting, they are slightly inset. I have some S10 4x4 front wheel bearings and while they will not fit in the center bore of the upright, their flange pattern is very close to being centered in the raised portion of the casting. So it might be possible to bore the upright to accept the larger wheel bearing, but before reaching the final size, weld the existing bearing bolt hole shut, finish boring the upright and then redrill the 3 mounting holes. I belive the uprights are ductial iron so welding the holes closed shouldn't be much of an issue.

Another approach to use the S10 wheel bearing... the center bore is very close to accepting the first step in the S10 wheel bearing. So I could make it fit this first step, then make a spacer ring (about 1/2") to suppport the bearing and change the bearing pattern. Doing this moves the wheels outboard, but I could just shorten the lateral links and pull them back in.

While researching this I have also been thinking about the G6 F40 axles... I have a set on the shelf and they come with a 30 spline at the wheel bearing. They already are a larger diameter (potentially stronger) than the stock fiero size stuff so I looked to see what wheel bearings came with 4 3/4" and 30 spline = C5 rear wheel bearings... I haven't confirmed that the diameter of the 30 splines are the same, but I do know the C5 stuff would come with ABS sensors and cost quite a bit more than the S10 ones currently setting on the shelf.

The largest diameter for the CV/bearing spline is from the later model 33 spline (3800 SC, N*, and most mid to full size FWD applications). I have a couple of these outboard CV's on the shelf as well and they would probably result in the strongest CV assembly. But the bearings that accept the larger 33 spline CV's do not come in the 4 3/4" pattern, but in the 115mm and others... and I am not sure I want to deviate away from the 4 3/4" pattern.

Right now, I am anxious to get this thing running, so I will most likely table the bearing/CV upgrade and just use the modified corsica tripod/axle for the DS (same one I built for my SBC/F40 swap) and take my two Saab intermediate shafts and make a longer one the needed length to allow a stock length G6/F40 axle to work (just need to swap out the CV end with a fiero one). Or I could use one of the Saab axles on the shelf as well since they have the fiero size outboard spline... this would save me from needing to swap the ends (a true factory axle assembly) and they are far more common and cheaper than the G6/F40 parts. Either option would allow my setup to run stock axle shafts and make replacement easier in the event I break one. If I happen to break the custom tripod housing or the custom length intermediate shaft... then I will probably go with a custom set of axles at that point using the largest components I can find.

I ordered the material to make the inner sleeve for the intermetiate shaft last night, so hopefully I will get started on it soon.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 04-28-2011).]

dobey MSG #228, 04-28-2011 01:21 PM
      Haha. I know what you mean. I am trying very hard to keep myself from buying another car for a project right now. Don't need any more right now. The 2 I have is enough.

I was also wanting to use wider wheels/tires on mine, and the 4.75" bolt pattern, but I think I just want to get it running and in the car right now, and then go from there. Getting into changing all the suspension is just going to make it take much longer to get done.

I definitely am looking forward to see what your ideas for using the stock G6 axles with the extended half shaft come out like. You're doing a great job on everything so far. Awesome as always!


fieroguru MSG #229, 04-30-2011 03:51 PM
      The accessory drive is finished. Completed all the final welding for all the brackets, idler pulley standoff and the slight notch in the front crossmember:



Then I made a small bracket so the dipstick tube will attach to the front manifold:


Drilled and tapped the oil bypass cover for the oil pressure sending unit for the gauge:


Relocated the temp sensor to the rear bank by cyl 8. This is the hottest cylinder and tends to be the first cylinder to detonate and kill the engine if excessively abused. Adding the 4 corner vent tubes will help eliminate hot spots, but I would rather have the ECM start pulling some timing in the event that cylinder 8 starts to get hot.


I am planning to drill/tap the coolant sensor hole by cyl #1 for the temp sender for the gauge. Still need to order a new fiero temp sensor.

Ran the welder out of Ar/CO2... so can't do any welding for the rest of the weekend. This should allow me to focus on the harness and other odds/ends for a couple of days.


dobey MSG #230, 04-30-2011 06:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Relocated the temp sensor to the rear bank by cyl 8. This is the hottest cylinder and tends to be the first cylinder to detonate and kill the engine if excessively abused. Adding the 4 corner vent tubes will help eliminate hot spots, but I would rather have the ECM start pulling some timing in the event that cylinder 8 starts to get hot.


I am planning to drill/tap the coolant sensor hole by cyl #1 for the temp sender for the gauge. Still need to order a new fiero temp sensor.


Isn't #8 on the other side, and #1 the one nearest the passenger side strut tower? I think you need to move that sensor to the other side if you want the #8 cylinder.


fieroguru MSG #231, 04-30-2011 09:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Isn't #8 on the other side, and #1 the one nearest the passenger side strut tower? I think you need to move that sensor to the other side if you want the #8 cylinder.


Nope. For GM V configuration applications, #1 is the cylinder closest to the balancer with 1 bank always being slightly ahead of the other. For V8's the DS (or front bank in fiero speak) has cylinder #1 and the passenger or rear bank has cylinder #8. Where this gets confusing is on the 60 degree V6 the PS bank is further forward, giving it cylinder #1.


blander66 (wrbland@mtu.edu) MSG #232, 05-01-2011 12:14 AM
      For the temp sensor you can get a 3 wires sensor that will work for both the ECM and the Temp gague in the dash, I am running this sensor in a truck i put a ls in.

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I am planning to drill/tap the coolant sensor hole by cyl #1 for the temp sender for the gauge. Still need to order a new fiero temp sensor.

[This message has been edited by blander66 (edited 05-01-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #233, 05-01-2011 07:40 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by blander66:

For the temp sensor you can get a 3 wires sensor that will work for both the ECM and the Temp gague in the dash, I am running this sensor in a truck i put a ls in.




Do you have a part # or application for the sender?


fieroguru MSG #234, 05-01-2011 08:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by blander66:

For the temp sensor you can get a 3 wires sensor that will work for both the ECM and the Temp gague in the dash, I am running this sensor in a truck i put a ls in.




Found it:

3 wire LS1 temp sender GM # 12551708, application 1998 Camaro w/ LS1, pigtail is the same as the TPS sensor on the fiero 2.5 and later model applications.


The bottom wire is for the gauge.

Only downside to using this 3 wire setup is I will loose the temp light, but the gauge is much more important anyways. I like the idea of 1 less sensor.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-01-2011).]

dobey MSG #235, 05-01-2011 09:52 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Nope. For GM V configuration applications, #1 is the cylinder closest to the balancer with 1 bank always being slightly ahead of the other. For V8's the DS (or front bank in fiero speak) has cylinder #1 and the passenger or rear bank has cylinder #8. Where this gets confusing is on the 60 degree V6 the PS bank is further forward, giving it cylinder #1.


Ah, right. Guess I've been spending too much time with the V6s.


fieroguru MSG #236, 05-01-2011 07:41 PM
      Probably my least favorite part of any swap... wiring.

Started with the cam sensor, wrapping around the rear of the engine picking up the O2 sensor, oil level sensor, bank 2 knock, crank position sensor, VSS and coolant temp sensor (still needs to be added). Then up over the bellhousing where I have the first 4 coils added to the harness (ignore the yellow wire ties... they are just temporary).





Still a lot more wires to add... (wide band o2, 4 more coils, 8 injectors, DOD connector, oil pressure sender, reverse lights, DWB throttle body, MAF, MAP sensor and starter. Then I will start with the Alternator, AC, bank 1 knock, oil pressure sender (gauge) and combine with the main harness. The car does not have a 500 connector on the passenger strut tower, so there is no need for any wires to cross over the accessory belt.

The ECM is shown in the approximate location it will be mounted (let the flood gates open to tell me how stupid it is to put it there!). I want the drivetrain to be almost entirely self-contained with the bare minimum of connections to the chassis, so the ECM needs to be mounted on the cradle somewhere away from excessive heat and I really do not want to see it (or the wires going to it).

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-01-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #237, 05-02-2011 05:36 PM
      Sold the 4T65e-HD this afternoon for $575... not bad considering I purchased the engine/transmission combo for $1000. Now I need to decide on which wide band to get...

aaronkoch (cheddarlump@cheddarlump.net) MSG #238, 05-02-2011 06:34 PM
      I don't see any problems at all putting it there.. the connectors are sealed, and it will have really decent airflow there & stay nice and cool.



fieroguru MSG #239, 05-05-2011 09:25 PM
      The stainless o2 bungs came in today, as well as the LS2 map sensor (LS4 one will not fit the LS2 intake):




Purchased an Innovate LC-1 wide band with gauge, MAF pigtail, and 3 wire temp sender... waiting on them to come in.

So I went ahead and turned down the shaft that will slide inside the Saab intermediate shafts to lengthen them. About 12" length was turned down to the proper size:


Then mocked up the passenger side suspension to figure out how much longer the intermediate shaft needed to be.


With the lateral links approximately level (they will actually be pointed up due to its lowered stance) and a saab intermediate shaft in the transmission, the distance from the back of the wheel bearing (where the outer CV seats) to the end of the intermediate shaft was measured = 19 1/4":



With that I went and measured the fully compressed and fully extended length (from base of bearing on CV to edge of seal surface on tripod - not the overall compressed length as shown in most catalogs) of the G6 F40 Driver side axle: fully compressed 16 7/8", fully extended (edge of rollers at edge of tripod cage) = 18 1/4", midpoint = 17 9/16

So to center the tripod at stock ride height with the G6 F40 driver side axle the intermediate shaft needs to be 1 11/16" longer.

I will probably start with the intermediate shaft extended 1 7/8" and tack the two tubes together w/o the inner sleeve and then do test fit and cycle the suspension to check for binding. If I need to make it shorter, that would be easy at that point, making it longer... not so much, so I will start with it slightly longer to begin with.

Changing gears... now if you are going to be chopping up 2 saab intermediate shafts, you could assemble two male ends vs keeping the current 1 male and 1 female setup. The only issue doing this, is the male end of the intermediate shaft is shorter than a normal tripod spline section and is missing the snap ring that retains it within the transmission (it didn't need one with the intermediate shaft support bearing ensuring the intermetiate shaft stays properly seated in the differential).



A resourceful person could install a bolt on extension to the male end of the intermediate shaft to accommodate a retaining ring (doesn't seem much force) and make this male/male intermediate shaft setup work.


Ruffy MSG #240, 05-06-2011 08:19 PM
      I see your still building on my car. make sure you have it done by this week! i wana drive it lol.

dobey MSG #241, 05-06-2011 09:32 PM
      I am guessing that the MAP sensors from the 07+ LS4s doesn't work, but the one on the 05-06 does work on the LS2 intake. Mine's an 06 and it just popped right in. The 07+ LS4 moved the MAP sensor to the top rear of the intake though, so I guess the body on the sensor changed to add a bolt hole?

They moved it, to help with emissions control. I'm thinking I might try to mount mine on the back side of the manifold as well. Not sure yet what I would do to fill in the hole on the throttle neck though.

And nice job on the half-shaft and axles. Great info as always!


fieroguru MSG #242, 05-07-2011 11:43 AM
      The issue with the MAP sensor has more to do with the port that goes into the manifold being too large to fit the LS2 intake hole. I probably could have over sized the hole, but was concerned about the plastic getting too thin... and I didn't like the look of the unused bolt hole in the LS4 sensor. The LS2 one is much better "looking" and keeps everything intake related (intake, throttle body, fuel rail, and injectors) all LS2 components.

If you wanted to relocate the MAP sensor to the rear of the manifold, you could probably tap the current hole for a plug, find a freeze plug that will slide into place, or just fill the hole with some sort of epoxy.

A little further on the intermediate shaft. The inner sleeve was 1 1/2" 1/2" wall DOM material. It needed turned down to about 1.45". I moved the cut on the first intermetiate shaft to place the seam closer to the center on the final product (and to make room for the inner sleeve to extend about 5-6" past the seam). Also located the cut line on the second intermediate shaft to increase the total length by 1 7/8" as a starting point. The edges of both intermediate halves were beveled as well for good weld penetration (and I do not need to worry about blowing out the back side since the sleeve will be there). I will tack weld the two ends together w/o the sleeve to test fit and check for axle binding in the chassis.




I am going to work on the chassis to remove the aluminum firewall (being replaced) and the hinge boxes. Then I can do another test fit with everything on the engine.


fieroguru MSG #243, 05-07-2011 11:50 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Ruffy:

I see your still building on my car. make sure you have it done by this week! i wana drive it lol.


You can't drive it until you catch up on your progress payments! Until you are current with the payments, I will consider it mine. The parts list (including engine/transmission purchase) of just the final components used in the swap is over $6K not including my labor charge.

The parts costs for this swap is still on track for being less expensive than the previous Ramjet/HTOB Getrag swap... and will be lighter with a stronger transmission, more HP and better fuel efficiency... I just need to make it look as good as my old Ramjet setup and I will be pretty happy!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-07-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #244, 05-07-2011 05:56 PM
      Here are the hinge boxes and the aluminum firewall:



Here they are mostly gone... excuse the left over adhesive from the Tac Mat:



I still need to grind down the remaining portions of the hinge boxes and then clean all the left over adhesive. I picked up 2 4x8 sheets of 16ga steel yesterday for the firewall panel and another project.

This particular modification to eliminate the hinge boxes came from JefrySuko during the 25th. We discussed it at great length during the 25th and figured out what all it would take. It should really declutter the front firewall with them gone and a smooth panel for the new firewall as well as provide clearance for my idler pulley on the LS4.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-07-2011).]

Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #245, 05-07-2011 11:11 PM
      Can I have the old diamond plate firewall?!

Although I haven't posted in this thread yet, I've been watching it from the beginning.. I am amazed with you resourcefulness and ability to make parts out of thin air...-Jason


fieroguru MSG #246, 05-08-2011 07:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierofreak00:

Can I have the old diamond plate firewall?!

Although I haven't posted in this thread yet, I've been watching it from the beginning.. I am amazed with you resourcefulness and ability to make parts out of thin air...-Jason


It decided to crack one of the fastback sail panels on removal, so it suffered the appropriate punishment and is no longer a piece anyone would want...

The single large panel was a major pain to install the first time w/o scratching or tearing anything up (I was in a time crunch for the 2007 HRPT and didn't want to take the time to remove the fastback), so when I make the new one, I will take the fastback off and remove the fuel fill tubes to have better access. This will also allow me to sand and repaint the back half of the chassis again (last done in 2005), since the car has spent since 2006 pretty much living outside (no garage space to store it).

The new firewall panel will only be the upper section and it will be a single flat panel, it will not bend down around the double firewall panel this time, mainly to save weight and the double firewall panel is already pretty smooth once the brackets are removed and the AC lines relocated from the driver side of the chassis. I am kicking around ideas to only have the single brake booster vacuum line pass through this panel and have everything else exit out the double firewall panel below...

Had the wife pick up some acetone so some time later this week I will remove all the unsightly adhesive from the factory fire wall and continue to make progress.


aaronkoch (cheddarlump@cheddarlump.net) MSG #247, 05-08-2011 11:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


It decided to crack one of the fastback sail panels on removal, so it suffered the appropriate punishment and is no longer a piece anyone would want...



Good to know you are indeed human, and had an appropriate response.. :P



KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #248, 05-12-2011 11:52 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


... I just need to make it look as good as my old Ramjet setup and I will be pretty happy!



Might flow too much for a 5.3 though



fieroguru MSG #249, 05-12-2011 01:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:

Might flow too much for a 5.3 though




I like that intake and probably prefer the new Holley one that has removable upper sections (but it only works with the square port heads, not cathedral).
http://www.holley.com/300-116.asp

Both intakes would lose bottom end torque even on the larger cube engines, but with the fiero weight and F40 ratios that isn't necessarily a bad thing. If/when I swap to a larger cube setup I will probably swap to one of these tunnel ram type intakes (probably also send my heads out for some CNC porting during the same upgrade time).

But for now I am trying not to get distracted so I can get this car on the road this summer. An LS Fest is in Bowling Green (2 1/2 hrs away) in September and I would love to take it down there... but it needs to be running, tuned and dynod well before then.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-12-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #250, 05-14-2011 07:34 PM
      Tacked the two parts of the intermediate shaft together and then put the engine/tranny/cradle back into the fiero to confirm the final length of the intermediate shaft and check clearance to the alternator and upper belt tensioner:





Before I could confirm the axle length, I had to swap out the G6 CV with a fiero CV:


Then I put the PS rear suspension on and leveled the lateral links to check the placement of the tripod rollers in the tripod cage. There was 3/8" of clearance before the rollers were bottomed out and with the rollers bottomed out there was 1 1/2" from the edge of the rollers to the edge of the tripod cage. So shortening the intermediate shaft by 3/8" will center the tripod rollers in the tripod cage at "stock" ride height.



dobey MSG #251, 05-15-2011 01:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
The issue with the MAP sensor has more to do with the port that goes into the manifold being too large to fit the LS2 intake hole. I probably could have over sized the hole, but was concerned about the plastic getting too thin... and I didn't like the look of the unused bolt hole in the LS4 sensor. The LS2 one is much better "looking" and keeps everything intake related (intake, throttle body, fuel rail, and injectors) all LS2 components.

If you wanted to relocate the MAP sensor to the rear of the manifold, you could probably tap the current hole for a plug, find a freeze plug that will slide into place, or just fill the hole with some sort of epoxy.


Ah. I didn't realize they changed the size of the port on the sensor as well. Mine looks exactly the same as your LS2 sensor, and popped right in on the LS2 manifold for me, when I test fit it.

I thought about epoxy, but don't want to have it break loose at some point and get sucked into the engine. Tap and plug might work, if I can find something to bolt in that place. But I don't want to just stick a bolt in it, since I do want it to look stock. I'm sure I'll figure something out though, when I get to the point of having to concentrate on it. Thanks for the suggestions.


fieroguru MSG #252, 05-15-2011 04:11 PM
      Went ahead and test fitted the DS axle (hybrid tripod housing with 96 corsica axle) and had 7/8" before bottoming out at stock ride height. It should be fine as is, but I may install a 1/8" spacer between the bearing and the CV joint to make it 3/4" so it will match the PS.



Then it was time to start modifying the shifter. So back to the shelf and pulled off these shifters for parts. Two are 4 speed shifters (with each missing a part from the reverse lockout) and an isuzu.


Tore one of the 4 speed shifters down and then installed my isuzu shifter lever and the old getrag select cable. With the cable in the stock 4 speed bracket, the shifter has very limited range. The first picture is with the cable fully extended and the 2nd one is with the shifter at is full range... there is about 1 5/8 gap:



Going the other way with the cable fully collapsed vs. the shifter results in a 1" gap:


So the cable bracket needs to be moved forward. Anywhere between 1" and 1 5/8" probably would work, but I chose 1 5/16" to keep everything centered - that way I could build up the shifter stops to reduce cable abuse. Here is where I marked the section to remove:


And welded back up with a range of motion checks:





Since the Getrag Select cable only has 1 3/4" range of motion, I went and checked the needed range of motion on the F40 (the one for the 4.3) and got 1 3/4" as well, but I need to take it again in a more precise manner.



Rodney is the greatest. I had used the left over Getrag select cable for my SBC/Getrag combo that I had purchased from him back in 2005 to confirm the pivot ball would pop out and fit on the pivot balls attached to the F40. Everything checked out, so I went and ordered 2 new Getrag Select cables for this swap. Before sending them, he called to confirm I was using them on the F40 and commented about his newest style of cable ends not having a removable pivot ball. Luckily he still has some of the older style ends with the removable ball studs and is going to send my cables with the older style ends.


qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #253, 05-19-2011 01:18 PM
      Still loving this thread.

Rob


fieroguru MSG #254, 05-19-2011 01:32 PM
      My new Rodney Getrag Select cables showed up yesterday. With a 10 second mod I was able to increase the travel from 1 3/4" to 2"... so no worries about range of motion for the Getrag select cable used as the F40 shift cable. Now I need to work on the select side and work on the cable mounting brackets at the transmission.

Khaos88GT (iluvcandy76@hughes.net) MSG #255, 05-19-2011 08:31 PM
      So how are you gonna keep you decklid down now that you have no hinges?

fieroguru MSG #256, 05-19-2011 10:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Khaos88GT:

So how are you gonna keep you decklid down now that you have no hinges?


I will be making a thin "L" shaped bracket (about 30" in length) that will bolt to the panel under the rear window and top portion of the firewall panel, then the lower portion of the stock hinge will be modified and turned 90 degrees to attach to this new hidden bracket under the rear glass. The torsion rods are gone for good and will be replaced with some gas charged lift cylinders.


Khaos88GT (iluvcandy76@hughes.net) MSG #257, 05-20-2011 04:55 PM
      If you can when you get to that point can you try and document that clearly on here. I've been wanting to get rid of mine forever just for cleanliness of wiring and what not especially with my ICM and coils located against the firewall on that side.

fieroguru MSG #258, 05-20-2011 07:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Khaos88GT:

If you can when you get to that point can you try and document that clearly on here. I've been wanting to get rid of mine forever just for cleanliness of wiring and what not especially with my ICM and coils located against the firewall on that side.


Will do... I promise to take lots of pictures!


fieroguru MSG #259, 05-21-2011 01:15 PM
      The shifter work is pretty much done. Just need to test fit in the chassis with the cables routed as they will be just to make sure everything is positioned right, then I can do all the finish welding on the bracket.

I started out with two Getrag select cables from Rodney Dickman. The cable that will become the shift cable was modified slightly to increase its stroke. Just took a tubing cutter and removed about 3/8" from the inner sleeve:



Then a card board mockup to get the general size/shape of the bracket and the approximate cable positions:



Transfer the card board pattern to some 1/8" steel, bent to shape and then use some 1 1/2" square stock, drilled some 1" holes for the cables (need to enlarge slightly more than 1") and then cut then into wedges. The round bodies of the cable ends needed about 1/8" removed (flattened so they would fit within the tubes). Then tack it all together and cut off the excess:






fieroguru MSG #260, 05-21-2011 06:02 PM
      Everything works as it should. I modified the reverse lockout to make it easier to engage and might have gone a little too far...nothing that the welder cant fix though.


Here are a couple of the brackets for the console mounted reverse switch that I went ahead and removed:


dobey MSG #261, 05-21-2011 08:26 PM
      That is a nifty looking bracket you have there!

fieroguru MSG #262, 05-22-2011 10:36 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

That is a nifty looking bracket you have there!



Thanks! I researched all the F40 install threads and settled on doing is similar to zac88gt but with my own spin.

It is hard to see in the above pics, but I found some cleaner looking clips to hold the cable ends in place for under $4 from Tractor Supply (2 in a package):

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-22-2011).]

blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #263, 05-25-2011 10:40 PM
      Ah, excuse me but, I've gotten used to frequent updates and I'm finding this interuption of the information flow to be somewhat similar to withdrawl.

Not that I'd know what that is like but, I can imagine. How bout an update there Paul?



fieroguru MSG #264, 05-26-2011 06:37 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:
Ah, excuse me but, I've gotten used to frequent updates and I'm finding this interuption of the information flow to be somewhat similar to withdrawl.

Not that I'd know what that is like but, I can imagine. How bout an update there Paul?


Been slacking this week... work and family commitments have kept me slammed. I am hoping to get back to it on Friday evening and through the weekend. The engine needs to come back out of the engine bay so I can start working on the decklid hinges and the new firewall panel.


fieroguru MSG #265, 05-27-2011 06:30 PM
      I was able to get an early start to the 3 day weekend by pulling the intermediate shaft back out of the car, shortening it 3/8" (final overall length will be 19 1/2"), beating in the first side 4" cold (and some slight heating once it was over 2" in) and then leaving 5" for the other side.


I used a propane torch to heat up the powdercoat material and scraped it all off. The female side is now in the oven at 500 degrees and the male end is in the freezer. After about 30 mintues in these conditions, I am hoping the other side will go together without much effort with the addition... brought a 2x12x24 piece of wood to put on the kitchen floor, my mini-sledge and a 2x4 for the top side... wife is pretty proud of me this evening!




fieroguru MSG #266, 05-28-2011 07:17 PM
      Started the work on the engine bay today. Welded in the relocated panel on the DS frame rail, removed the last remnants of the decklid hinge boxes and pulled the 6 1/2' x 4' sheet of 1/8" steel out to cut a 30" x 48" piece (easier to handle for future small pieces vs. always pulling out the large sheet) and from that piece I cut a 6" x 36" piece that I will bend into an somewhat open "L" for attaching to the firewall and rear glass tube.




fieroguru MSG #267, 05-29-2011 01:17 PM
      I put the decklid back on the car, weighted down the rear and then used some large washers to set the panel gap:


Here is an underside view of the factory hinge:


The plan is to cut the hinge off where it bends for the attachment to the stock hinge boxes. Then weld a piece of 1/4" steel to the hinge and have this plate bolted to the fiero chassis... something like this:



When my youngest gets up from nap, I will cut out the pieces from 1/4" steel and continue. A bar with nuts welded to the back side will be slid into place inside the rear window tube to help spread the load of the decklid across it. The 6x30x1/8" piece probably will not be needed, but it may be used to make a few brackets.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-29-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #268, 05-30-2011 07:51 PM
      Decided to start another thread with the details of the hinge box mod...
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/085829.html

Here are the two modified hinges ready to be installed:



fieroguru MSG #269, 05-31-2011 06:06 PM
      Hinges are pretty much done, I may reduce the 1/4" spacer to 1/8" to better line up the body line at the decklid vents:




My 12 ton home made press didn't have enough push to slide the two ends of the intermediate shaft together, so I took it to work and got it done. There is about 4 1/2" of overlap on each side. I would have it welded already, but ran the welder out of wire... :





blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #270, 06-03-2011 10:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

My 12 ton home made press didn't have enough push to slide the two ends of the intermediate shaft together, so I took it to work and got it done. There is about 4 1/2" of overlap on each side. I would have it welded already, but ran the welder out of wire... :




As my ole Pappy used to say, "You needed a bigger hammer!".



fieroguru MSG #271, 06-04-2011 01:03 PM
      The intermediate shaft is now fully welded. I built up the area around the seam and enlarged the OD about 1/4" and then turned it down smooth about 1/8" thicker at the seam. This should help ensure the welded seam is at least as thick as the original tube thickness. This intermediate shaft is 19 1/4" in length.


Also, made the template for the new firewall panel:


blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #272, 06-09-2011 09:47 PM
      Bump back to the top.



fieroguru MSG #273, 06-11-2011 12:51 PM
      Took the fastback clip off so the new firewall panel could be installed easier and it also gave me an opportunity to check out the frame rails (been 6 years since the clip has been removed).





They are still rust free! I purchased this fiero from KY back in 2000 and in 2005 stripped it down to the spaceframe and cleaned and repainted the back half of the chassis. The paint looks like it has done its job especially since this car has lived outdoors since for the last 5 years.

Then used the cardboard template and traced the shape of the panel on the sheet metal.


Hopefully, I will get this cut and test fitted this evening.

A large clamp collar is on order for the intermediate shaft bearing housing. I will turn the ID so the bearing can slide into it and then turn a snap ring groove to hold the bearing in place. Then the collar can be welded to the remaining portion of the bracket that bolts to the engine via the stock engine mount holes.

A replacement 12" digital caliper is also on order... I broke the display on my other one...

I only have a couple more weeks to make progress on this swap, before it will go on the back burner for a couple of months. June 26th I have another 88 Fiero coming here for a SBC/Getrag swap.


fieroguru MSG #274, 06-12-2011 04:36 PM
      First test fit of the panel:





I have marked a few places where I can remove a little more material to even up the gaps and provide room for the panel to expand slightly.


KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #275, 06-13-2011 04:28 AM
      looks good. What color will the firewall piece be? Why not diamond plate this time?

Are you going to tune the engine yourself?

also, I'm jealous of your chassis.

[This message has been edited by KissMySSFiero (edited 06-13-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #276, 06-13-2011 11:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:

looks good. What color will the firewall piece be? Why not diamond plate this time?

Are you going to tune the engine yourself?

also, I'm jealous of your chassis.



I haven't decided on a color for the engine bay yet. Black would be easy, but then most would not notice the majority of the engine bay tweaks, so it needs to be a lighter color that would still go with the blue on the engine. Been kicking around a light gray/charcoal color or even painting it blue to match the body. I didn't do the diamond plate again for a couple of reasons. Cleaning it was a pain, and the polished finish would scratch with just a sponge rubbing over the top. The tread pattern had sharp edges and would also tear up the sponge and leave sponge debris. Then there is the cost of a 4x8 sheet that would only have a single use (I still have the left over portion from the original one) since I do not use tread plate much for anything else. With the flat mild steel panel, the left over material will be put to use **cough - gas tank - cough**.

I purchased HP Tuners and a wide band for this project and plan to do all my own tuning. My experience with mail order tunes (from 3 vendors) on my RamJet swap was just a waste of $$$ and convinced me that I needed to learn how to do my own tunes.

The chassis on this 88 is pretty decent and better than most ($800, base coupe from KY), but it was tapped a little in the front/back and the rear frame rails about 4" right behind the bumper are slightly wavey. I picked up another 88 this year with a near perfect chasiss... only issue with it is someone cut a hole in the driver side frame rail with a torch to fix the rear cradle bolt. Even with that hole, this other car has an even better chassis... I just haven't decided what that car will get.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 06-13-2011).]

dobey MSG #277, 06-13-2011 03:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I haven't decided on a color for the engine bay yet. Black would be easy, but then most would not notice the majority of the engine bay tweaks, so it needs to be a lighter color that would still go with the blue on the engine. Been kicking around a light gray/charcoal color or even painting it blue to match the body.


What about aluminum or silver? I know it's been done before, but Rickady88GT's engine bay is sexy in that color.


fieroguru MSG #278, 06-15-2011 07:05 PM
      Finally got around to making the bearing holder for the intermediate shaft. The ring is 1/4" thick around the bearing and had a machined lip on one side and a snap ring groove on the other. Now I can weld this bearing holder to the rest of the bracket (once I finish making it).




qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #279, 06-16-2011 09:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


What about aluminum or silver? I know it's been done before, but Rickady88GT's engine bay is sexy in that color.


I always loved that engine bay, and I love the use of factory stickers too. I would not normally use stickers, but in that case, it looked good. Thought about re-doing mine and using LS3 type of stickers from a vette or camaro.

Rob


fieroguru MSG #280, 06-18-2011 11:49 AM
      Intermediate shaft bearing holder is now complete:





BMTFIERO (bmtfiero@outlook.com) MSG #281, 06-18-2011 06:24 PM
      WOW!!!

blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #282, 06-18-2011 11:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by BMTFIERO:

WOW!!!


Think Paul's work looks good in pics? You should see it in person. The man is a wizard. I kid you not.

A little crazy maybe but, we're all guilty of that, we're here aren't we.



mwhite (mike.white@rogers.com) MSG #283, 06-23-2011 02:42 PM
      fieroguru,
Looking forward to your next post, on this cool car.

PM sent,


fieroguru MSG #284, 06-24-2011 05:16 PM
      Started mocking up the coolant hoses and took a trip to Autozone and found a good candidate for the water pump inlet. The thermostat exit is a simple 90 and then it will go into a steel tube to cross over to the driver side coolant tube. I will need to replace the passenger tube - I need to cut it back about 6" and the one that is on there is unbent (so I do not want to cut it). I will grab one of the spares that is bent slightly and use it.


I have a customer's fiero coming here on Sunday for a SBC/Getrag swap, so I needed to prep the LS4/F40 swap and my 88 chassis for storage... so I have been busy getting everything ready to paint.




In the morning the blue and black paint will be spraying...


fieroguru MSG #285, 06-25-2011 05:59 PM
      Got some painting done today:







fieroguru MSG #286, 06-26-2011 09:15 PM
      This project is temporarily on hold while I work on a customer's car.

The Blue 88 is back in the line up:


The garage is also the cleanest it has been in quite some time (still a little cluttered... but what do you expect with all my tools in a 2 car garage).



[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 06-26-2011).]

blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #287, 06-29-2011 10:41 PM
      Hmm, so tell me, just how much of that cleanup did your daughter do?

When I was there last week, I clearly remember seeing her picking up stuff Dad had left on the floor.

Oh yeah, bump for a great thread.



LEEEZARD (cobalt964ruf@aol.com) MSG #288, 06-30-2011 02:16 AM
      nice shop setup guru

blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #289, 07-07-2011 10:25 PM
      I was at Paul's last week, he is currently working on a rebody doing an engine swap for someone. Won't go into the details but, he's busy with this and has put his LS4 project on hold for a while. Paul is very detail oriented and produces a great product. There is no doubt in my mind he could quit is day job and successfully build cars for a living.

Bump to move this back up to the top.



fieroguru MSG #290, 07-24-2011 12:54 PM
      While this project is on hold until I finish up a 383 SBC/Getrag swap for a PFF member, I did have an opportunity to compare a Fiero 2.8 Spec Stage 3+ clutch (9 1/8") to the 4.0 Ford Ranger Spec Stage 4+ clutch (10") that I am using for my LS4/F40 swap.
The 4.0L Ranger Spec Stage 4+ clutch is on the left and the Fiero 2.8 Spec Stage 3+ is on the right:



As you can see the 10" version I am using has a thicker pressure plate and the friction material is not only larger in overall diameter, it is also wider. Running the numbers, the 10" clutch has 25% more friction area and the centerline of the friction material is 1/2" larger in diameter. Both of these factors should help with drivability which is what I was going after.

From a weight standpoint:
Fiero 2.8 Spec Stage 3+ clutch/pressure plate: 15 lbs 5oz
4.0L Ranger Spec Stage 4+ clutch/pressure plate: 16 lbs 5 oz

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-24-2011).]

LEEEZARD (cobalt964ruf@aol.com) MSG #291, 07-28-2011 05:28 PM
      Paul, thank you for the ls1 based 142 tooth flywheel for my lsv8/f23 conversion. your work is very nice. i gave you a plus for your craftsmanship. thank you again.

81 4.9L X-11 (robertcope2@yahoo.com) MSG #292, 08-25-2011 05:01 PM
      Any progress?

fieroguru MSG #293, 08-25-2011 07:22 PM
      Not on the LS4 front. Once the SBC/Getrag swap I am working on is complete, I will be hitting the LS4/F40 swap hard to get it finished.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-25-2011).]

Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #294, 09-01-2011 11:08 AM
      Wow, I literally just read all this information and I have to say FieroGuru you are a fountain of knowledge. You have made me change my mind about 99% about the motor and transmission I want to use in my fiero. Your documentation on this is amazing, great build, beautiful work and craftsmanship, are you going to make templates of the starter modification that you've done and the flywheel? I'm not 100% sure that with the information you've given out that people couldn't make their own templates because you've documented this so well! A+++

Syn

PS Question are you going to be retuning this to run with out Cats?

[This message has been edited by Syn (edited 09-01-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #295, 09-02-2011 03:39 PM
      Thanks for the compliments!

I have been approached by a few members about the starter bracket and the flywheel. I am not opposed to selling them once I have my swap up and running so I can validate the design. If I decide to market the F40 flywheel/clutch package, I will be able to produce them for all the common engines (60 degree, 3800SC, 4.9, N* and LS4).

As for the tune w/o cats, the lack of converters is the least of my tuning issues. With the larger MAF, LS2 throttlebody, LS2 Intake, LS2 Injectors, 224/232 camshaft and LS7 manifolds the combo will need some significant tuning to just get it to idle and drive. Once the tune is spot on, then I will be able to play with it some more to try and get the DoD feature to work with the manual transmission. Lots of tuning ahead of me.

Since I haven't posted a pic to this thread in a while, here are a few pics of my current distraction:








Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #296, 09-02-2011 04:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Thanks for the compliments!

I have been approached by a few members about the starter bracket and the flywheel. I am not opposed to selling them once I have my swap up and running so I can validate the design. If I decide to market the F40 flywheel/clutch package, I will be able to produce them for all the common engines (60 degree, 3800SC, 4.9, N* and LS4).

As for the tune w/o cats, the lack of converters is the least of my tuning issues. With the larger MAF, LS2 throttlebody, LS2 Intake, LS2 Injectors, 224/232 camshaft and LS7 manifolds the combo will need some significant tuning to just get it to idle and drive. Once the tune is spot on, then I will be able to play with it some more to try and get the DoD feature to work with the manual transmission. Lots of tuning ahead of me.




your welcome!

and I can honestly say if you offered the starter and flywheel as a kit I would pay whatever price you wanted to charge

This is in no way a statement of any fact at all so grain of salt please, but it would seem like to me with it having DoD it would need the back pressure of the cats, I don't think that the muffler alone would give you the backpressure you would need. It just seems like that would be something that the computer would take into affect. As far as the DoD working with a manual I wouldn't think that would be that big of deal because doesn't it engage with RPM's and fuel consumption?

on an unrelated note what ever happened to that 4th gen rear glass project you had? did anything become of that?


fieroguru MSG #297, 09-02-2011 06:57 PM
      I do not think back pressure plays that big of a role in DoD performance, especially since in stock form the exhaust is immediately over sized once it enters 4cyl mode. Some long tube headers would probably help the 4cyl mode performance. I will have bigger issues with the surge/jerk that will happen when it engages/disengages and it will sound like total crap when it is in 4 cyl mode. My goal is to limit DoD activation to only happening in 6th gear, above 54 mph and below 80 mph.

DoD activation is quite sensitive to inputs from everything else. There are 27 parameters or conditions that must be met for DoD to activate and then it has time limitations for staying in 4 cyl mode and how long it must be in 8 cyl mode between 4 cyl mode events. My challenge is that 3 of the 27 parameters come directly from the 4T65e-HD that is no longer present. Transmission Gear Incorrect, Transmission Range Incorrect and Transmission gear shift in progress. Within the ECM I can limit DoD to when the selector is in drive and only in 4th gear, so I will probably setup something to show this condition when the shifter lever is placed in 6th gear on the F40. Then I can adjust the speed parameters to further limit the DoD window to where I want it.

Within the LS4 ecm program, there is also a "Manual Transmission" switch. I am curious what happens when that is selected in regards to DoD. The LS2/6 speed corvette ECM also has DoD parameters in it, so maybe GM did some initial testing with DoD and a manual transmission and deemed it to harsh during the engage/disengage events for general use. The unknown is how bad will it truly be (and one of the reasons I rubber mounted the engine/transmission).

The 4th gen hatch project is gathering dust in the basement... too many projects, not enough free time or $$$ to work on them all. Someday I might get back to it...


Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #298, 09-02-2011 08:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I do not think back pressure plays that big of a role in DoD performance, especially since in stock form the exhaust is immediately over sized once it enters 4cyl mode. Some long tube headers would probably help the 4cyl mode performance. I will have bigger issues with the surge/jerk that will happen when it engages/disengages and it will sound like total crap when it is in 4 cyl mode. My goal is to limit DoD activation to only happening in 6th gear, above 54 mph and below 80 mph.

DoD activation is quite sensitive to inputs from everything else. There are 27 parameters or conditions that must be met for DoD to activate and then it has time limitations for staying in 4 cyl mode and how long it must be in 8 cyl mode between 4 cyl mode events. My challenge is that 3 of the 27 parameters come directly from the 4T65e-HD that is no longer present. Transmission Gear Incorrect, Transmission Range Incorrect and Transmission gear shift in progress. Within the ECM I can limit DoD to when the selector is in drive and only in 4th gear, so I will probably setup something to show this condition when the shifter lever is placed in 6th gear on the F40. Then I can adjust the speed parameters to further limit the DoD window to where I want it.

Within the LS4 ecm program, there is also a "Manual Transmission" switch. I am curious what happens when that is selected in regards to DoD. The LS2/6 speed corvette ECM also has DoD parameters in it, so maybe GM did some initial testing with DoD and a manual transmission and deemed it to harsh during the engage/disengage events for general use. The unknown is how bad will it truly be (and one of the reasons I rubber mounted the engine/transmission).

The 4th gen hatch project is gathering dust in the basement... too many projects, not enough free time or $$$ to work on them all. Someday I might get back to it...


Ok well that was about 100xs more informative than anything I've read so far on the DoD, I'm really not that big on the whole DoD thing anyways as it only yields at max 7.5% better efficiency overall. I imagine you will benefit more from DoD since you've reduced so much rotational mass. Well in any event I look forward to reading more about this and your trials and tribulations, You might make me reconsider DoD because the idea of having a 6 speed with DoD is a great idea to me because its almost like the best of both worlds but as of right now I'm leaning more toward the traditional set up.

Did you ever get anything hooked up with the 4thgen rear or was it mainly just the rear end of a Camaro set on top of a bare fiero? I love the way it looked and made my brain just go in all different directions with ideas of how I could make that work here and here with this bumper and these side panels ext ext.

Syn


fieroguru MSG #299, 09-03-2011 08:26 AM
      DoD is more of a gimmick overall, but it does work to some degree (I drove a 2009 Suburban with a 5.3 DOD from KY to DC through the mountains and averaged 19 mpg). All I am after is maximizing my interstate fuel efficiency to reduce fuel costs and fuel stops for road trips.

My big focus with it is even with the F40 the cruise RPM's will still be much higher than the low RPM's obtainable with the RWD T56 cars at interstate speeds and this higher RPM (especially on a large V8) just increases pumping losses and reduces fuel efficiency (if the F40 had a 3.0 final drive, I wouldn't mess with DoD). My smaller displacement of 5.3L will help, but the super small fiero gas tank really puts a damper on long road trips (like the HRPT when I was filling up 2-3 times a day). So I am hopeful that restricting DoD to only work at interstate speeds that it will be tolerable.

Before this swap is done, I will also have a new/larger fuel tank to maximize the available space and probably a larger expansion tank on the passenger frame rail. When I am burning up the interstate, on a long trip, I really hate stopping for gas every 2 1/2 to 3 hrs.

The furthest I got with the camaro hatch was doing the test fits and trimming the rear GT body work. Before I get back to it, I have to get a fiero with an engine in it first (my 2 88's are currently sitting engineless - the blue one is getting the LS4/F40 and an eventual chop top (hatch will not fit), the black/yellow one is getting the 4.3/F40 swap that is mostly complete and sitting on the shelf as well. The 4.3 car will be my daily driver and will probably get the hatch some day to show off this engine:


[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-03-2011).]

Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #300, 09-03-2011 08:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

DoD is more of a gimmick overall, but it does work to some degree (I drove a 2009 Suburban with a 5.3 DOD from KY to DC through the mountains and averaged 19 mpg). All I am after is maximizing my interstate fuel efficiency to reduce fuel costs and fuel stops for road trips.



That is a good looking motor! actually all your motors look good. and by they way your button head bolts on that motor look fantastic would have never thought of that. I think that if you could get enough rotational mass(which you are doing a great job of that right now) that you would actually see better fuel mileage at highway speeds, since the average is 5-7.5%. if you got 23 MPG you would get around 25 MPG. I mean that is an extra 32 miles per tank but I think your actual gas mileage numbers are going to be quite a bit better than that since its going in a car that fully dressed was about 1000 pounds lighter. but what am I telling you this for I'm sure you already know all that

So you used a GT rear for the hatch? I think I'm going to see if I can find a used rear glass (rather than take one off my Camaro lol) and do some looking, I really like the look of it and I think with the right fiberglass mods it could turn into something amazing!

Syn.


dobey MSG #301, 09-03-2011 11:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:
That is a good looking motor! actually all your motors look good. and by they way your button head bolts on that motor look fantastic would have never thought of that. I think that if you could get enough rotational mass(which you are doing a great job of that right now) that you would actually see better fuel mileage at highway speeds, since the average is 5-7.5%. if you got 23 MPG you would get around 25 MPG. I mean that is an extra 32 miles per tank but I think your actual gas mileage numbers are going to be quite a bit better than that since its going in a car that fully dressed was about 1000 pounds lighter. but what am I telling you this for I'm sure you already know all that


So far, the stock LS4 swaps with the 4t65e-HD seem to be getting about 28-30 MPG on highway. So hopefully fieroguru will be getting at least that. Although, with that enormous cam, he may very likely not. Also not sure what tires he plans on running, but a taller tire will help bring the RPMs down a little.

I'll be trying to get 35+ MPG out of mine; without the AFM.


Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #302, 09-04-2011 09:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


So far, the stock LS4 swaps with the 4t65e-HD seem to be getting about 28-30 MPG on highway. So hopefully fieroguru will be getting at least that. Although, with that enormous cam, he may very likely not. Also not sure what tires he plans on running, but a taller tire will help bring the RPMs down a little.

I'll be trying to get 35+ MPG out of mine; without the AFM.


yeah, I was using stock numbers in a 3700 pound Impala, just the sheer loss of weight overall and rotational mass I imagine he would get around 25-27 with out DoD so that would be about almost 30 mpg at 7.5% but these figures don't really mean much since it's purely estimation and doesn't take into account the 6 speed cruising Fieroguru is wanting to achieve and like you said tire height will play a role in getting the RPM's down. I don't think 35 would be a unachievable goal, but there is no better way to prove math then by testing it in the real world! Can't wait to see it running and driving.

Syn


fieroguru MSG #303, 09-04-2011 10:15 AM
      My blue fiero has always ran 245/45/16's which are 24.6" in diameter, but I really need more tire on the rear. Eventually, I will stuff as wide a wheel back there and probably upgrade to some 17's or 18's in the rear to help further reduce the cruise RPM.

I would love to see 35 mpg with my combo, but would be happy with anything over 30, especially at the whp my combo should produce. The cam is a little on the large side, but given I am targeting a 2850 vehicle weight with the swap, the low gearing in the transmission, minimal frictional losses within the transmission and the smaller frontal area on the fiero, I think it will be just fine. One guy is running the same cam in a Grand Prix and it can still pull itself with DoD turning less RPMs, with taller tires, more weight, more frontal area, and more parasitic transmission losses than I will have.

You guys are getting me all excited to get back to work on this swap, but the 383/Getrag combo must be done first and it is my priority.


Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #304, 09-04-2011 11:10 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

You guys are getting me all excited to get back to work on this swap, but the 383/Getrag combo must be done first and it is my priority.


I'd offer to come help you hurry up and get it finished so you could get back on the ls4/f40 but your in Kentucky Speaking of the cam that you have though, did they give you some torque numbers? no so much max torque but just where it is in the power band?

Syn


dobey MSG #305, 09-04-2011 11:56 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
You guys are getting me all excited to get back to work on this swap, but the 383/Getrag combo must be done first and it is my priority.


Haha. Better get that 383 done then! I just got my heads milled, a valve job, and crank cleaned and polished. I need to do some yard work (yay hurricanes) and pick up a few things at HF, but hope to get the block cleaned, and short block back together today/tomorrow.


dobey MSG #306, 09-05-2011 05:16 PM
      I guess I have to take that back. Yard work more tedious than I thought it would be, and seather is being finicky today. Most likely will get to it next weekend, or hopefully find time one night this week.


fieroguru MSG #307, 09-05-2011 06:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

I guess I have to take that back. Yard work more tedious than I thought it would be, and seather is being finicky today. Most likely will get to it next weekend, or hopefully find time one night this week.


That is one of the best things about my current garage... even on 97 degree days (like it was on Saturday) it stays about 75 and on days under 30 degree it stays about 65... as long as I keep the rollup doors shut. I spent the day making braided stainless hoses with AN lines.









In a day or two, the engine/transmission/cradle will come out one last time to finish up the engine bay detailing firewall insulation. Then I need to finish up the harness and the rear merge/muffler area of the exhaust:



With stainless heat shields added:




dobey MSG #308, 09-05-2011 07:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
That is one of the best things about my current garage... even on 97 degree days (like it was on Saturday) it stays about 75 and on days under 30 degree it stays about 65... as long as I keep the rollup doors shut


Yeah, the heat wasn't too bad today, but some small rain storms came through. Don't have a lot of room in my garage as it is right now, so would have to pull the car out to work, and don't want to leave it sitting out in the rain. The other necessary chores are the bigger damper though.

That 383 is looking good too.


Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #309, 09-06-2011 11:13 PM
      was reading some on someone who put a ls4 in their Fiero and it brought up an interesting question, What do you plan to do for the interior? adapting the Fiero interior to accept the new components? or using a newer model dash out of something like a Malibu, Impala, or G6?

fieroguru MSG #310, 09-07-2011 12:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:

was reading some on someone who put a ls4 in their Fiero and it brought up an interesting question, What do you plan to do for the interior? adapting the Fiero interior to accept the new components? or using a newer model dash out of something like a Malibu, Impala, or G6?


Nothing in the interior "must" change to run the LS4 besides adding the electronic throttle pedal. You can add as much from the donor car as you would like, but it isn't a requirement for the swap. For now my fiero interior will remain stockish. A longer term project is to swap out the dash from a 1999 maxima (my wifes car and I like the dash).


Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #311, 09-07-2011 02:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Nothing in the interior "must" change to run the LS4 besides adding the electronic throttle pedal. You can add as much from the donor car as you would like, but it isn't a requirement for the swap. For now my fiero interior will remain stockish. A longer term project is to swap out the dash from a 1999 maxima (my wifes car and I like the dash).


its not like the ecotec where you have to have the chipped key? and you don't need main display?


fieroguru MSG #312, 09-07-2011 05:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:
its not like the ecotec where you have to have the chipped key? and you don't need main display?


You do have to get past the pass key security, but you do not need the main display. I will probably add light to let me know when it is in 4cyl mode.


dobey MSG #313, 09-07-2011 05:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:

was reading some on someone who put a ls4 in their Fiero and it brought up an interesting question, What do you plan to do for the interior? adapting the Fiero interior to accept the new components? or using a newer model dash out of something like a Malibu, Impala, or G6?


I honestly haven't decided exactly what I'm going to do for mine yet. I want to build a full custom dash, including custom LED gauge displays, but to start with I'll probably use the G8 gauges, and make any necessary custom housing to mount them in the stock Fiero dash.


Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #314, 09-13-2011 02:34 PM
      How is that 383 coming?

fieroguru MSG #315, 09-13-2011 05:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:

How is that 383 coming?


Exhaust is done back to the muffler. Need the Mera specific tips before I can finish the exhaust.



Here is the fit for the rear merge section between both tubes before welding:


Finished building every AN/braided stainless hose:


So moved on to the wiring... The blue tape at the AN fitting will ensure proper length to the 500 connector.


The same goes for the blue tape by the VSS for the harness that goes to the ingnition box for the proflow system:


While the engine was in, I made this little template to locate the bulkhead connector on the harness:


Still need to POR the engine bay, finish the harness, finish the exhaust and then put it all back in to make some noise!



iluvsd619 (luv6192000@yahoo.com) MSG #316, 09-15-2011 11:24 AM
      With all those upgrades on the ls4, what do you think your HP is at the crank? I just got one and was looking to get close to 400 at the crank. Did some searching, but still unsure of what mods to do before the motor goes in.

[This message has been edited by iluvsd619 (edited 09-15-2011).]

motoracer838 (jmartin@musicunveiled.com) MSG #317, 09-15-2011 06:47 PM
      As always, nice work.

Joe


fieroguru MSG #318, 09-18-2011 07:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by iluvsd619:

With all those upgrades on the ls4, what do you think your HP is at the crank? I just got one and was looking to get close to 400 at the crank. Did some searching, but still unsure of what mods to do before the motor goes in.



I am hoping to see north of 350 whp (which would be about 392 crank hp assuming a 12% drivetrain loss).

Here are a couple of good 5.3L (not LS4) builds to give you an idea of what it takes to wake these engines up.
http://truckin.automotive.c...ine-build/index.html
http://www.carcraft.com/tec...ck_engine/index.html

Here is a thread on LS1 tech on how to get 400 hp from a 5.3L:
http://ls1tech.com/forums/c...ut-5-3-possible.html

Here is a dyno thread on the truck side you you can see what they are putting to the wheels (RWD = more driveline loss):
http://www.performancetruck...-dyno-thread-438301/


dobey MSG #319, 09-18-2011 09:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
I am hoping to see north of 350 whp (which would be about 392 crank hp assuming a 12% drivetrain loss).


I think the biggest problem you're going to run into, is the AFM lifters, and springs if you're using stock on those too.


fieroguru MSG #320, 09-18-2011 10:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


I think the biggest problem you're going to run into, is the AFM lifters, and springs if you're using stock on those too.


DoD lifters are stock, but the springs came with the cam kit. Remember, this cam was specifically designed for DoD engines, so the lifters should last a while, especially since it will start out with the lifters locked until I can get DoD to work with the manual. The other LS4 guy running the same cam in his DD with functional DoD hasn't had any lifter issues and he is nearing 2 years since his install.

But yes, the DoD lifters are definitely the weak link. Once the thing is running I am planning to do some MPG comparisons and see what benefit DoD has for my application. Depending on what that shows me, I might purge the DoD hardware and upgrade to the VVT hardware and play with it.


dobey MSG #321, 09-19-2011 08:25 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
DoD lifters are stock, but the springs came with the cam kit. Remember, this cam was specifically designed for DoD engines, so the lifters should last a while, especially since it will start out with the lifters locked until I can get DoD to work with the manual. The other LS4 guy running the same cam in his DD with functional DoD hasn't had any lifter issues and he is nearing 2 years since his install.

But yes, the DoD lifters are definitely the weak link. Once the thing is running I am planning to do some MPG comparisons and see what benefit DoD has for my application. Depending on what that shows me, I might purge the DoD hardware and upgrade to the VVT hardware and play with it.


Right. But the GP guy is also still on the 4t65e, and I'm not sure the programming in that combination will let him go past 6000. The lifters get weak at just over 6000, around 6200, and you had mentioned wanting to rev past that before. That's why I mentioned it as the only real issue I see with your setup.

I haven't seen any dyno results of his GP either. Does anyone know what the HP/TQ gains are with only that cam in a stock LS4?

You've got the benefits of having the LS7 headers, LS2 intake, and aluminum flywheel with the F40, so should be able to put down more WHP than that GP does anyway, since he's basically stock+cam.


iluvsd619 (luv6192000@yahoo.com) MSG #322, 09-19-2011 10:52 AM
      Thank you for the info Fieroguru. That is some nice power!

fieroguru MSG #323, 09-19-2011 11:06 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Right. But the GP guy is also still on the 4t65e, and I'm not sure the programming in that combination will let him go past 6000. The lifters get weak at just over 6000, around 6200, and you had mentioned wanting to rev past that before. That's why I mentioned it as the only real issue I see with your setup.

I haven't seen any dyno results of his GP either. Does anyone know what the HP/TQ gains are with only that cam in a stock LS4?

You've got the benefits of having the LS7 headers, LS2 intake, and aluminum flywheel with the F40, so should be able to put down more WHP than that GP does anyway, since he's basically stock+cam.


He has upgraded to something in the 3.6x range of final drives, bumped his rev limiter, and taken the engine up to 7K rpm... it was what started the whole discussion about the installed intake centerline being way too retarded (pun intended). He also was running the LS1 intake and either ported manifolds or DT headers.

If all one did was install the cam with an otherwise stock LS4... probably would be a dog. The cam will give up lowend TQ to make upper RPM power, but the LS4 intake/exhaust will be a significant restriction to any upper RPM power increases... The key to the cam swap on the LS4 is to improve the intake and exhaust flow at the same time.


dobey MSG #324, 09-19-2011 12:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
He has upgraded to something in the 3.6x range of final drives, bumped his rev limiter, and taken the engine up to 7K rpm... it was what started the whole discussion about the installed intake centerline being way too retarded (pun intended). He also was running the LS1 intake and either ported manifolds or DT headers.

If all one did was install the cam with an otherwise stock LS4... probably would be a dog. The cam will give up lowend TQ to make upper RPM power, but the LS4 intake/exhaust will be a significant restriction to any upper RPM power increases... The key to the cam swap on the LS4 is to improve the intake and exhaust flow at the same time.


OK. I'd be very interested to know what his TQ/HP curves look like on the dyno then. If he's revving to 7K consistently, I'd also be very surprised he hasn't blown a lifter or 8. I skimmed through his thread looking for the important bits, but didn't see any dyno numbers anywhere. Do you know if he ever got it dynoed?


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #325, 09-22-2011 02:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


He has upgraded to something in the 3.6x range of final drives, bumped his rev limiter, and taken the engine up to 7K rpm... it was what started the whole discussion about the installed intake centerline being way too retarded (pun intended). He also was running the LS1 intake and either ported manifolds or DT headers.

If all one did was install the cam with an otherwise stock LS4... probably would be a dog. The cam will give up lowend TQ to make upper RPM power, but the LS4 intake/exhaust will be a significant restriction to any upper RPM power increases... The key to the cam swap on the LS4 is to improve the intake and exhaust flow at the same time.


I got a free LS1 intake and will do some exhaust mods (not sure what yet) and get rid of the DOD. For me I dont see a big enough boost in mpg to keep it. I would rather rev it to 7000g and swap to a 6 speed. I would guess that the DOD would not see better mpg stock v modified.



dobey MSG #326, 09-22-2011 04:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:
I got a free LS1 intake and will do some exhaust mods (not sure what yet) and get rid of the DOD. For me I dont see a big enough boost in mpg to keep it. I would rather rev it to 7000g and swap to a 6 speed. I would guess that the DOD would not see better mpg stock v modified.


Nice. Do you have all the info you need to drop the DOD? Does CARB not consider the DOD as "emissions equipment" for inspection? If you need some info about dropping the DOD, send me a PM or ask in my thread. I'm also deleting it on my LS4 (have everything, engine is just still disassembled).


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #327, 09-22-2011 04:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Nice. Do you have all the info you need to drop the DOD? Does CARB not consider the DOD as "emissions equipment" for inspection? If you need some info about dropping the DOD, send me a PM or ask in my thread. I'm also deleting it on my LS4 (have everything, engine is just still disassembled).


Yes the DOD would need to be functional, but I think they would notice the 6 speed manual first? I was just going to drop the DOD by using an LS6 valley cover and cam/lifter set. I want a 6500+ rpm V8 6 speed. For no other reason than the sound and fun of shifting. I never wanted to build a race car, just a fun to drive car.



dobey MSG #328, 09-22-2011 05:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:
Yes the DOD would need to be functional, but I think they would notice the 6 speed manual first? I was just going to drop the DOD by using an LS6 valley cover and cam/lifter set. I want a 6500+ rpm V8 6 speed. For no other reason than the sound and fun of shifting. I never wanted to build a race car, just a fun to drive car.


You'll want to change the lifters also, and the oil pump and pan. I'm using an LS2 pump, and LS2 Vette pan/pickup/windage tray on my LS4. The LS2 Vette pan has better baffling, and the DOD's need for oil can result in starvation with the stock LS4 pump when you get rid of the DOD hardware. The Vette pan is also shorter, so you get a bit more ground clearance. You'll need an GenIV/LS2 valley cover actually. The LS1/LS6 cover is different. So don't waste your money on it. I got a new LS2 cover complete with new gaskets and bolts for $129, if I'm remembering correctly.


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #329, 09-22-2011 08:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


You'll want to change the lifters also, and the oil pump and pan. I'm using an LS2 pump, and LS2 Vette pan/pickup/windage tray on my LS4. The LS2 Vette pan has better baffling, and the DOD's need for oil can result in starvation with the stock LS4 pump when you get rid of the DOD hardware. The Vette pan is also shorter, so you get a bit more ground clearance. You'll need an GenIV/LS2 valley cover actually. The LS1/LS6 cover is different. So don't waste your money on it. I got a new LS2 cover complete with new gaskets and bolts for $129, if I'm remembering correctly.


Good to know, thanks.



Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #330, 09-26-2011 02:02 PM
      haven't heard anything in a while, hows it coming?

fieroguru MSG #331, 09-26-2011 07:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:

haven't heard anything in a while, hows it coming?


Still focused on the SBC/Getrag build.
I am hoping it makes some noise this weekend, but even if it does I probably will not be back focusing on the LS4/F40 swap until probably Nov 1. I would love to have it running before thanksgiving so I can take it on a road trip, but lots of stuff has to happen before then.


blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #332, 09-30-2011 03:07 AM
      All I'm gonna say is "Get Her Done". I wanna see this hot rod on the road.

Oh Yeah, Bump for a great thread.



Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #333, 09-30-2011 02:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Still focused on the SBC/Getrag build.
I am hoping it makes some noise this weekend, but even if it does I probably will not be back focusing on the LS4/F40 swap until probably Nov 1. I would love to have it running before thanksgiving so I can take it on a road trip, but lots of stuff has to happen before then.


nov 1st that's just sad. Your attention to detail is awesome. I'm thinking I'm going to purchase a ls4 I like this weekend, but I'm thinking I should wait until monday.


KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #334, 09-30-2011 02:58 PM
      I'd buy one tomorrow if I could find one in this country!!

awesome work. I'm seriously debating on shipping an LS4 and f23 over here.
This thread has shown me a lot that I never would have been able to do on my own.



fieroguru MSG #335, 10-13-2011 07:45 PM
      This thread needs some engine noise... unfortunately it isn't from the LS4:


Just need to replace the front ball joints, steering rack bushing, paint the cold air intake and finish the tuning... then it will be LS4 time!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-14-2011).]

Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #336, 10-14-2011 04:04 PM
      sweet! whats the werring noise? almost like a supercharger whine?

fieroguru MSG #337, 10-14-2011 04:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:

sweet! whats the werring noise? almost like a supercharger whine?


Gear drive for the camshaft. About 3500 RPM the exhaust becomes louder than the gear drive


topcat (tconey01@att.net) MSG #338, 10-14-2011 05:07 PM
      Wow! I know that car. Looks and sounds great.

dratts (dratts2@gmail.com) MSG #339, 10-15-2011 12:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


You'll want to change the lifters also, and the oil pump and pan. I'm using an LS2 pump, and LS2 Vette pan/pickup/windage tray on my LS4. The LS2 Vette pan has better baffling, and the DOD's need for oil can result in starvation with the stock LS4 pump when you get rid of the DOD hardware. The Vette pan is also shorter, so you get a bit more ground clearance. You'll need an GenIV/LS2 valley cover actually. The LS1/LS6 cover is different. So don't waste your money on it. I got a new LS2 cover complete with new gaskets and bolts for $129, if I'm remembering correctly.


I might be showing my ignorance here, but I would think that the ls4 pump would be fine without the dod hardware. It's an upgrade over the stock oil pump right? I don't get the advantage of the ls2 vette oil pan/pickup over the ls4. Especially since the ls2 is for a longitudinal mounted engine and the ls4 pan was specifically designed for the forces that a transverse engine will encounter. I'm very willing to be enlightened.


fieroguru MSG #340, 10-15-2011 02:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dratts:
I might be showing my ignorance here, but I would think that the ls4 pump would be fine without the dod hardware. It's an upgrade over the stock oil pump right? I don't get the advantage of the ls2 vette oil pan/pickup over the ls4. Especially since the ls2 is for a longitudinal mounted engine and the ls4 pan was specifically designed for the forces that a transverse engine will encounter. I'm very willing to be enlightened.


The LS4 oil pump is a high volume unit and the concern is that if you remove the DoD hardware (which is a oil volume hog, but the oil is quick to drain back into the pan) you could run the risk of pumping the oil pan dry by sending a large about of oil up to the valvetrain.

As for the LS4 oil pan being designed for FWD... if by that you mean designed as a large open unbaffled pan... that is what the LS4 pan is.


Here is the inside of the corvette LS2 oil pan:



dobey MSG #341, 10-15-2011 04:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dratts:
I might be showing my ignorance here, but I would think that the ls4 pump would be fine without the dod hardware. It's an upgrade over the stock oil pump right? I don't get the advantage of the ls2 vette oil pan/pickup over the ls4. Especially since the ls2 is for a longitudinal mounted engine and the ls4 pan was specifically designed for the forces that a transverse engine will encounter. I'm very willing to be enlightened.


As fieroguru mentioned, high volume pump could suck the pan dry, without the DoD hardware. Looking through other forums for various bits of LS-related knowledge, I came across a few posts where people who removed the AFM hardware on the top end to get to the higher RPMs, ended up with oil starvation issues, on the G8/Holdens. So, better safe than sorry, and the oil pump is a cheap/easy change if you're changing cams already anyway.

Also, as fieroguru posted, the Vette LS2 pan has much better baffling inside it than the LS4 pan (which actually has none). Also, the Vette LS2 pan is specifically interesting as it is a low profile pan, as the engine in the 05+ Vettes is mounted lower, so it makes more clearance for getting exhaust by on the front side of the motor if running a full exhaust system.


dratts (dratts2@gmail.com) MSG #342, 10-15-2011 08:57 PM
      Thanks guys, I was thinking like fuel pumps that lots is good. I think that I had read a description of an ls4 with an oil pan baffled with the transverse forces in mind. Can't beat pictures though, I believe you guys, and as stated I managed to display my ignorance.

Kemp3 (jckemp3@sonic.net) MSG #343, 10-15-2011 09:35 PM
      I am going to challenge this oil pump theory. I am sorry but it makes no sense as the engine has a bypass and once oil pressure is reached the rest of the oil is bypassed back into the pan. Unless there is something really wrong with a motor I dont see how it could possible pull all the oil out of your pan and put it some where else .

Dont believe me talk to a few engines builders .


dobey MSG #344, 10-15-2011 10:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Kemp3:
I am going to challenge this oil pump theory. I am sorry but it makes no sense as the engine has a bypass and once oil pressure is reached the rest of the oil is bypassed back into the pan. Unless there is something really wrong with a motor I dont see how it could possible pull all the oil out of your pan and put it some where else .

Dont believe me talk to a few engines builders .


Oil Pressure and Oil Volume are not the same thing. If it wasn't an issue, then GM would use the same oil pump on the AFM motors, as the non-AFM motors to save the money, but they don't. The pump on the AFM engines displaces 1.26 in³/revolution, while the standard LSx pump displaces 0.95 in³/revolution of oil. That's a pretty big difference. The AFM pump may work fine for you, and if it does, hooray. It's a cheap thing to change (all you have to really change, is the spring in the pump), when you're pulling all the AFM hardware off. The AFM oil pans also have an additional relief valve in the pan itself, which could cause oil to dump back to the sump, when needed up top, on a non-AFM motor.

GM puts all this stuff on the AFM cars for a reason, and they don't put it on the non-AFM cars for a reason. Better to build the engine to the appropriate manufacturer design specs, than to risk potential problems, especailly when the changes are so easy to make. GM spent millions to research, design, and build the AFM/DoD system on these cars, so there's no need to ask an engine builder. We aren't building classic small/big block race engines here, where slightly different rules would hold true.


fieroguru MSG #345, 10-15-2011 10:55 PM
      The LS4/F40 swap will now get an additional upgrade... switching from 12" to 13" brake rotors with a new brake rotor kit/design.

I have found a 13" rotor that based on the rotor specs should retain the 88 calipers and has a mounting depth that is slightly shallower than the current C4 12" rotors to avoid the lower A-arm rubbing, but not as shallow as the Viper 13" rotor that needs 8 caliper brackets. My setup will only need 4 caliper brackets (similar to the fieroaddiction 12" brackets), 4 concentric rings and 4 13" rotors that can be purchased for under $50 each... The rotors are also very close to the Viper rotor weight.


motoracer838 (jmartin@musicunveiled.com) MSG #346, 10-16-2011 10:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The LS4/F40 swap will now get an additional upgrade... switching from 12" to 13" brake rotors with a new brake rotor kit/design.

I have found a 13" rotor that based on the rotor specs should retain the 88 calipers and has a mounting depth that is slightly shallower than the current C4 12" rotors to avoid the lower A-arm rubbing, but not as shallow as the Viper 13" rotor that needs 8 caliper brackets. My setup will only need 4 caliper brackets (similar to the fieroaddiction 12" brackets), 4 concentric rings and 4 13" rotors that can be purchased for under $50 each... The rotors are also very close to the Viper rotor weight.


Can't wait to see more.

Joe


Alex4mula (torres_a@hotmail.com) MSG #347, 10-18-2011 06:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The LS4/F40 swap will now get an additional upgrade... switching from 12" to 13" brake rotors with a new brake rotor kit/design.

I have found a 13" rotor that based on the rotor specs should retain the 88 calipers and has a mounting depth that is slightly shallower than the current C4 12" rotors to avoid the lower A-arm rubbing, but not as shallow as the Viper 13" rotor that needs 8 caliper brackets. My setup will only need 4 caliper brackets (similar to the fieroaddiction 12" brackets), 4 concentric rings and 4 13" rotors that can be purchased for under $50 each... The rotors are also very close to the Viper rotor weight.


I will be looking for this too. Would be a great contribution


qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #348, 10-18-2011 09:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The LS4/F40 swap will now get an additional upgrade... switching from 12" to 13" brake rotors with a new brake rotor kit/design.

I have found a 13" rotor that based on the rotor specs should retain the 88 calipers and has a mounting depth that is slightly shallower than the current C4 12" rotors to avoid the lower A-arm rubbing, but not as shallow as the Viper 13" rotor that needs 8 caliper brackets. My setup will only need 4 caliper brackets (similar to the fieroaddiction 12" brackets), 4 concentric rings and 4 13" rotors that can be purchased for under $50 each... The rotors are also very close to the Viper rotor weight.


More info, More info, More info.......... please.

Rob


kennn (kbrooksarchitect@cox.net) MSG #349, 10-19-2011 08:54 PM
      WRX rotors?

Ken



fieroguru MSG #350, 10-19-2011 09:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by kennn:

WRX rotors?

Ken



Nope.


fieroguru MSG #351, 10-22-2011 12:59 PM
      Ordered 1 of the 13" rotors today so I can start comparing its actual specs to the stock 88 rotor and the C4 12" rotor. It will also allow me to make a single bracket and test fit on the front of one of my 88's to confirm clearance to the lower a-arm and my 16" Millie Miglia wheels.

fieroguru MSG #352, 10-26-2011 07:30 PM
      The new 13" rotor got the 5x100 pattern drilled:


Then it was slid into place on the wheel bearing:


Caliper was then slid over the rotor surface and the whole thing installed in a 16x7 wheel. There is about 1/8" clearance between the caliper body (resting on the rotor) and the wheel. So if I split the difference there will be about 1/32" clearance between the rotor/caliper and caliper/wheel... but they do fit... at least on the wheels I have for both my 88's.



They even clear the stick on wheel weights, but I will probably start using the clamp type weights on the back side:


Here is a good evolution of brake rotors for 88 Fieros...
Stock 88:

12" Vette Rotor:

13" fieroguru Rotor:




motoracer838 (jmartin@musicunveiled.com) MSG #353, 10-27-2011 10:05 AM
      Nice!!!

Joe

[This message has been edited by motoracer838 (edited 10-31-2011).]

Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #354, 10-28-2011 02:41 PM
      so is this for the LS4? or for the other car?

fieroguru MSG #355, 10-28-2011 06:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:

so is this for the LS4? or for the other car?


This is for both my 88's (LS4 and 4.3), the Mera has 15" wheels and this upgrade will not fit.

Here is a comparison of the C4, stock 88 and the 13" rotors:


The bracket to mount the caliper is very similar to C4 brake setup:


Rotor/caliper and wheel back together to confirm fitment... and it does fit, just some slight contact with the wheel weight that can be relocated to the wheel lip:



Then the moment of truth... will the rotor clear the lower a-arm for its full range of motion. To check this, I took a spare lower a-rm and bolted it to the upright. Then using the mechanical limits of the lower ball joint, the lower a-arm was moved all around trying to make contact and it just was not possible. In fact in the tightest position I was able to pass a large washer between the a-arm nose and the rotor. The reduced depth and the larger rotor diameter work together to eliminate any chance of interference when using stock lower ball joints (the non-lowering kind).







I already have the autocad prints for the bracket (slightly different shape than the mock up one) and rings and will be sending them out to a couple of places for quotes. Since none of my 88's are currently drivable, the first set will be given to a PFF member for free to install/test on their 88. I have already chosen this person and they have agreed to test, so I do not need any more volunteers...

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-28-2011).]

Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #356, 11-06-2011 05:13 PM
      Brakes are looking good! How is the LS4 coming?

fieroguru MSG #357, 11-06-2011 07:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:

Brakes are looking good! How is the LS4 coming?


Haven't touched it. Been driving the Mera and doing the finishing touches on it.

Next distraction will be the the brake upgrade and possibly selling some brake upgrade kits.

Maybe the LS4 will be done by New Years...


Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #358, 11-07-2011 11:22 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Haven't touched it. Been driving the Mera and doing the finishing touches on it.

Next distraction will be the the brake upgrade and possibly selling some brake upgrade kits.

Maybe the LS4 will be done by New Years...


well at least it will stop but right now you would just have to push it. So is this brake upgrade kit going to be for just 88 cars?


fieroguru MSG #359, 11-07-2011 12:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:
So is this brake upgrade kit going to be for just 88 cars?


88 only (I rarely dabble in anything but 88 only).
Reusing the stock 88 calipers is the only economical way...


fieroguru MSG #360, 11-14-2011 06:18 PM
      The 383/Getrag distraction has come to an end... now where did I leave that LS4/F40...

I will be bach'n it from Wednesday to next Tuesday, so should be able to make some progress.


blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #361, 11-17-2011 12:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The 383/Getrag distraction has come to an end... now where did I leave that LS4/F40...

I will be bach'n it from Wednesday to next Tuesday, so should be able to make some progress.


Bump. Git-R-Done.



fieroguru MSG #362, 11-19-2011 06:40 PM
      Finally back working on the LS4 swap!

When I installed the camshaft it was supposed to come with the LS2 style chain guide. I couldn't see it in the box, so I left the stock LS4 one in. Well when I was packing up all the LS4 stuff to store it while working on the 383/Getrag, I found it... so first order of business was installing the LS2 timing chain guide:


Then the engine was given a bath at the carwash and the reassembly began. My button head obsession required that I replace the valve cover bolts with stainless button heads. To do this the stock bolts had to be cut to remove the support sleeve.


In this pic you can see the small washer on the left that some vendor thought would work fine for these bolts, but it is way too small, and the center hole as too much slop... the larger washer with the smaller hole is the one I modified:


I stacked 10 on a bolt and put them in the lathe and turned them down to the desired size:


Here is a pic of the engine going back together... you can see the stainless button heads and the washers on the valve cover, also you can see the intake and fuel rail resting in place (I have the VOLM cover off being painted blue).


I painted the front timing cover, installed the stainless button heads and installed the balancer for the last time. It is hard to see in this pic, but I also cut the vacuum elbow off the end of the intake and tapped the holes for 2 plugs. The brake booster vacuum supply will come off the neck of the intake.


It will be a rather slow process as I clean everything prior to installation... I am also fighting the urge to redo the LS4 water pump...

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-19-2011).]

KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #363, 11-20-2011 09:15 AM
      I like the fact that the blue masking tape in the valley matches everything else.

Bloozberry MSG #364, 11-20-2011 10:00 AM
      Ooooooo.... that's purrrdy. Glad to see you're back on the LS4

I was flipping through the November issue of Street Rodder magazine the other day and thought about you when I saw this ad for a new low profile cast aluminum oil pan for LS series engines by Holley. Thought I'd stick a link to the product in your thread in case you or anyone else in the future might find it useful: www.holley.com/302-1.asp


dobey MSG #365, 11-20-2011 10:47 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

Ooooooo.... that's purrrdy. Glad to see you're back on the LS4

I was flipping through the November issue of Street Rodder magazine the other day and thought about you when I saw this ad for a new low profile cast aluminum oil pan for LS series engines by Holley. Thought I'd stick a link to the product in your thread in case you or anyone else in the future might find it useful: www.holley.com/302-1.asp


Interesting pan. I think the C6 Vette pan would be a better choice though, especially for the Fiero, since it's baffled to avoid all the oil piling up on one side during heavy acceleration in any direction. I think it also fits the applications that Holley pan was designed for pretty well, though not entirely certain.


fieroguru MSG #366, 11-20-2011 05:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:

I like the fact that the blue masking tape in the valley matches everything else.


Its all about color coordination!


fieroguru MSG #367, 11-20-2011 05:24 PM
      I was able to get the valley cover installed, if you look close you will notice I was slacking and only used the button heads on the bolts that will be visible:


Then the intake went on with more stainless steel button heads:




Then I spent a little time playing with another water pump option. The big challenge with the LS4 (and all other engines from the same family) is the coolant inlet/outlet are right next to each other and complicates plumbing/packaging. So why not just cap off the coolant exit ports and use the two freeze plugs coming off the heads. Some tube could be used to make a coolant crossover and the thermostat housing could be mounted on the cross over tube is a similar location as the old SBC.


Getting the coolant outlet out of the way, frees up room to run a water pump setup similar to the one I ran on my SBC (probably will need to go further forward to clear the wheel well, but you get the picture):


I am probably going to table the water pump idea until I do a low buck 4.8/Getrag swap... don't really need any more distractions to further delay getting the LS4 running.



Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #368, 11-21-2011 03:29 PM
      you know that's one part of this swap that I haven't really thought about all that much is the water pump and front assembly. I really want to do the hatch back gt option so the deck lid wouldn't be a problem I don't think but I don't think that I'll have the gt hatch done by the time I'm ready to install it so that is a dilemma.

dobey MSG #369, 11-21-2011 04:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:

you know that's one part of this swap that I haven't really thought about all that much is the water pump and front assembly. I really want to do the hatch back gt option so the deck lid wouldn't be a problem I don't think but I don't think that I'll have the gt hatch done by the time I'm ready to install it so that is a dilemma.


If you get rid of the stock decklid hinges, the only real issue with the stock LS4 water manifold, is that the fill neck is on the wrong side of the engine. I'm thinking I might get rid of them, and do the same thing fieroguru did here with his decklid, and the custom very-low-profile hinge setup.


kennn (kbrooksarchitect@cox.net) MSG #370, 11-22-2011 02:35 PM
      Guru,

Is the balancer on the LS4 also a ribbed pulley? I'm curious to know if it would fit on an SBC small block to shorten the front end accessory stack.

Ken



fieroguru MSG #371, 11-22-2011 03:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by kennn:

Guru,

Is the balancer on the LS4 also a ribbed pulley? I'm curious to know if it would fit on an SBC small block to shorten the front end accessory stack.

Ken




Yes, the LS4 is a ribbed pulley. No it will not fit on the SBC - crankshaft bore and seal surface are different diameters. What you need is a balancer from an 89+ FWD 2.5L. It is a 6 rib balancer/pulley and is a direct swap to a SBC (unless you are using the vortec plastic engine cover or a taller gear drive). Left is a V8 archie balancer, middle is the 89+ FWD 2.5, and right is 3.1L FWD balancer:







kennn (kbrooksarchitect@cox.net) MSG #372, 11-23-2011 09:38 PM
      Thanks for your response, Guru. I do have a small curiosity: Will a harmonic balancer for a four cylinder suffice for the small block v8? I am aware that the imbalance of the v8 is taken out with the flywheel. So it's then my understanding that the harmonic balancer does not technically "balance." So does it merely cancel the harmonics of the motor?

Ken



fieroguru MSG #373, 11-24-2011 09:58 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by kennn:

Thanks for your response, Guru. I do have a small curiosity: Will a harmonic balancer for a four cylinder suffice for the small block v8? I am aware that the imbalance of the v8 is taken out with the flywheel. So it's then my understanding that the harmonic balancer does not technically "balance." So does it merely cancel the harmonics of the motor?

Ken



The harmonic balancer is mostly to calm crankshaft harmonics vs. having anything to do with the actual rotating balance of the crankshaft assembly (at least when speaking of SBC's except the 400 - which did have a weight on the balancer). The ring mass on the 2.5 balancer is very similar to that of the Archie V-belt balancer (which was from the chevy inline 6).


fieroguru MSG #374, 11-24-2011 09:59 AM
      13" brake rotor backets are done:


ricreatr MSG #375, 11-25-2011 11:42 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Getting the coolant outlet out of the way, frees up room to run a water pump setup similar to the one I ran on my SBC (probably will need to go further forward to clear the wheel well, but you get the picture):



guru, i recently did this on my 3800 project, but i exited the coolant from the back of the heads. i think it provides better flow across the whole engine. (in the front, out the back)
it is not done now, but you can see the freeze plugs have a teardrop shape around them with a bolt hole at the small end of the tear drop. i cut that shape from an inch thick piece of aluminum. the one bolt holds the block against the (empty) freeze plug hole and seals. i tapped 1/2 pipe thread into the aluminum block and screwed in a 3/4 nipple. is working great. i did a similar thing on a big block olds in a boat years ago. i like it.



Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #376, 12-01-2011 12:26 PM
      been about a week any progress?

fieroguru MSG #377, 12-01-2011 12:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:

been about a week any progress?


Focused on finishing the 13" rotor upgrade kit. It ships to my tester on Friday.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-01-2011).]

kennn (kbrooksarchitect@cox.net) MSG #378, 12-02-2011 10:32 AM
      Beautiful work; Lovely presentation; Very interested.

Ken



blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #379, 12-07-2011 05:53 AM
      Bump for any updates.



blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #380, 12-13-2011 08:58 PM
      Obviously, someone is taking a break from my, our and his project. Enjoy the break.



fieroguru MSG #381, 12-13-2011 10:01 PM
      Yeah... I have been slacking!


kennn (kbrooksarchitect@cox.net) MSG #382, 12-14-2011 12:04 AM
      It looks like your tester may have given a good report.

Ken



fieroguru MSG #383, 12-18-2011 07:24 PM
      OK, enough with the slacking... it is time to make progress.

Installed the flywheel on the engine. I used this home made tool to keep the crank from spinning as I torqued down the flywheel bolts:


Here are the flywheel bolts - they are the GM Performance Parts longer versions for using a crankshaft spacer - they work great with my aluminum flywheel:


Flywheel installed:



Then moved on to the clutch installation. Spec Stage 4+ for a 4.0L Ford Ranger



Used tape the build up the end of the ford alignment tool to fit the LS4 pilot bushing support (for the torque converter):



Notice the flange is on the transmission side to help with the recessed input shaft on the F40:



Pressure plate:


Notice the dowel pins locate the pressure plate to the flywheel:


Flywheel installed:



Then I installed the transmission and all the other mounts/brackets that were fabricated for this swap. To support the cradle while all this work is going on, I pulled out my electric/hydraulic scissor lift to keep things are a good working height:


Rear transmission mount:


Modified Intermediate shaft (modified Saab unit to make it longer) and fabricated bearing support:


Rear engine mount (the unpainted arm supports the muffler/exhaust):


Front engine mount, AC bracket, Alternator bracket and Idler base... yes this is a very busy area:



Front transmission mount and starter bracket to use the stock LS4 starter and starter placement:



Coil relocation bracket (there is another one on the other head):


Custom shifter cable bracket for the F40:



Here are some overall pics:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 07-02-2016).]

AkursedX (akursedx@aol.com) MSG #384, 12-18-2011 10:21 PM
      Amazing! I love watching this build progress. I wish I could give you another '+' as not only have you provided a very detailed build thread,but you also take time for measurements along the way.



fieroguru MSG #385, 12-21-2011 08:17 PM
      One of my goals with this swap was to drop the curb weight about 100 lbs vs. the old SBC/Getrag setup. The car with the old setup tipped the scales at 2960 lbs with 1720 on the rear (58.1%). Dropping 100 lbs from the rear would change the rear weight bias to 56.5%.

After I finished putting most of the accessories and other parts on, I went ahead and weighed the engine/transmission/cradle on a crude scale setup (2 6x6 beams and 4 bathroom scales - zerod out the weight of the 6x6). Here are a few pics of the setup on the scales:




So right now the weights are:
DS PS Total
381 346 727

The last SBC/Getrag setup I weighed in this manner in a similar state of assembly was:


DS PS Total
318 446 764

Granted there were some minor differences in components and state of assembly between these two setups so exact #'s are not as meaningful as the relative changes. The big thing to notice is that the F40 adds quite a bit of weight to the DS and the LS4 reduces quite a bit from the PS. It almost looks like a LS4/Getrag setup would be within 25 lbs from side to side.

I never weighed my old SBC setup in this manner, but it probably was a bit heavier due to my cast manifolds, heavier intake, custom water pump setup, and 2x3 cradle crossmembers. I think the drivetrain will end up contributing about 50-75 lbs to my weight loss goals and the other 25-50 will come from the chassis (removed trailer hitch as an example). I will only know if I made the weight loss goals once I have it running again and can take it back to the same scale used to weigh the car the first time.


blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #386, 12-22-2011 03:25 AM
      OK, I just have to ask. How many folks have four bathroom scales?

Bump for a great project and thread.



fieroguru MSG #387, 12-22-2011 06:34 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:

OK, I just have to ask. How many folks have four bathroom scales?

Bump for a great project and thread.



They are wal-mart cheapos - about $10 each!


BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #388, 12-24-2011 12:59 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
12" Vette Rotor:




By chance, do you have a pic of this car?


fieroguru MSG #389, 12-24-2011 08:59 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:
By chance, do you have a pic of this car?


How many would you like...






BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #390, 12-25-2011 01:36 AM
      Thanks, for a minute there I thought it was my old car!



Bloozberry MSG #391, 12-26-2011 07:11 PM
      Looking sharp there Guru. That side to side weight difference on the SBC/Getrag setup was an eye-opener... almost 130 lbs difference! (Then again, I suppose driving around with only the driver in the car probably has a certain neutralizing effect). I wonder how much the stock V6 drivetrain differs in total and the difference side to side... ever measured that?

fieroguru MSG #392, 12-26-2011 10:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

Looking sharp there Guru. That side to side weight difference on the SBC/Getrag setup was an eye-opener... almost 130 lbs difference! (Then again, I suppose driving around with only the driver in the car probably has a certain neutralizing effect). I wonder how much the stock V6 drivetrain differs in total and the difference side to side... ever measured that?


I have had these scales about a year now, but didn't take the time to weigh the cradle/engine/transmission when I parted out an 88 formula drive train several months back, or the 3800SC/Getrag that I reworked the mounts on. Going forward every swap I get my hands on will be weighed in the same manner to start some comparisons. I think the stock V6 setup would be in the same range (100+) if you measured the chassis, considering the battery at the outer extreme of the engine bay.

I responded to your PM as well.


mattwa (mattwa.inc@gmail.com) MSG #393, 12-27-2011 03:00 AM
      Not to get too off topic, but my I'm going to guess I gained 50-75lbs when swapping from 2.8/3T40 to 4.9/4T60e, and most of that weight was gained from the transmission, weighing in at 204lbs. Considering the 4.9 is pretty close to the weight of the 2.8, I'd say my whole cradle drop out would be in the 625-650lb range. I also know the Fiero this power-train is in weighs 2800lbs with this setup.

qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #394, 12-27-2011 02:48 PM
      Guru, love the coil relocate. I have been looking at doing that with my LS3. From the pics it looks like you have the spark plug wires coming out the top, but I would think that having them go out the bottom might look better. Not sure if it was just done for mock up or not. Also, are you going to be running an aftermarket set of fuel rails, or sticking with stock.

Its looking really good, thanks for the update.

Rob

[This message has been edited by qwikgta (edited 12-27-2011).]

fieroguru MSG #395, 12-27-2011 03:12 PM
      The coils have the coil wires coming out 1 end and the harness connections 180 from them. So I chose to keep the plug wires visible and hide the wiring connectors.

I was planning to stick with the stock fuel lines for now, but may upgrade to something different sometime later.


Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #396, 12-30-2011 11:37 AM
      So I take it that its not going to be fired up before 2012? you know there are only 356 days to drive next year. you know end of the world and what not.

fieroguru MSG #397, 12-30-2011 03:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:

So I take it that its not going to be fired up before 2012? you know there are only 356 days to drive next year. you know end of the world and what not.


Probably not... only so many hrs in the day and I have been busy trying to launch my 13" brake kit and working on some other suspension upgrades fro the 88 as well.

I do have the next 4 days off, so I might make some actual progress on wiring the LS4.

I did end up scoring another LS4 water pump setup from a guy who was parting out his engine.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-30-2011).]

ZombiePenguin (zombiepenguin69@gmail.com) MSG #398, 12-31-2011 01:04 PM
      If you want another water pump, you could have mine, Im going to be using an electric. I didn't want to worry about pump clearance of that massive unit

LS1swap (aswanson60098@sbcglobal.net) MSG #399, 01-08-2012 07:41 AM
      have you considered using a fresh water marine pump? that seemed to be the best option for a mechanicle pump when i did mine. i ended up using an electric pump for eas of installation. oddly enough it still works after ten year, but i dont drive it that much anymore.



fieroguru MSG #400, 01-08-2012 11:21 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by LS1swap:

have you considered using a fresh water marine pump? that seemed to be the best option for a mechanicle pump when i did mine. i ended up using an electric pump for eas of installation. oddly enough it still works after ten year, but i dont drive it that much anymore.



Never looked into a marine pump... have any links?

For my next one (probably a budget 4.8 commuter build), I am going to design & build a custom water pump that will better utilize the space available and simplify the mounting of the alternator and AC


Danyel MSG #401, 01-08-2012 12:18 PM
      When I was swapping in my new 5.7L I was really considering a Dedenbear kit for my cooling system ... here is a link to it. I think this is really innovative... http://www.dedenbear.com/TXTwHead.htm#WH
regards
Danyel




Edited for Page ownage !!!!!!


Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #402, 01-13-2012 09:56 AM
      So I have a question for you, are you going to do anything with the radiator? does it need to be upsized to accommodate for the v8 or is it going to be sufficient? I had the company truck the other day and it had low coolant and made me think about that.

fieroguru MSG #403, 01-13-2012 10:46 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:

So I have a question for you, are you going to do anything with the radiator? does it need to be upsized to accommodate for the v8 or is it going to be sufficient? I had the company truck the other day and it had low coolant and made me think about that.


My car already has a 26x19x3" aluminum radiator up front from the SBC swap - stock is 24x16x1.5... it has plenty of excess cooling capacity.


dobey MSG #404, 01-13-2012 12:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:

So I have a question for you, are you going to do anything with the radiator? does it need to be upsized to accommodate for the v8 or is it going to be sufficient? I had the company truck the other day and it had low coolant and made me think about that.


Aluminum 3-core from Champion is what's going in mine.


fieroguru MSG #405, 01-13-2012 06:42 PM
      Yet another LS4 water pump showed up today (thanks ZombiePenguin!).


Been busy stripping down an 88 parts car to get back under my allowable # of personal fieros (2).
Started with this:


Ended with this:


Kept this for a fuel tank project:


The rear frame rails were too good to scrap, so they were given to another PFFer:


I also gave away the 4.3/F40 engine/tranny/tubular cradle to get more shop space and 1 less distraction.

After this weekend, I should be done with all the fabrication getting the hardware for first 25 brake kits done, which has been a significant time drain for the past several weeks.

I am hoping to spend a little time on the LS4 swap this weekend and identify and order the needed wiring pigtails for some of my sensor changes.


mattwa (mattwa.inc@gmail.com) MSG #406, 01-13-2012 07:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Been busy stripping down an 88 parts car to get back under my allowable # of personal fieros (2).


There is your blue 88 obviously, but what's the 2nd one? Is it that black 86 GT I saw or is that gone too?


fieroguru MSG #407, 01-13-2012 10:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mattwa:


There is your blue 88 obviously, but what's the 2nd one? Is it that black 86 GT I saw or is that gone too?


I have a black/yellow 88 notchie, that is also sitting engine less.


I might retire the blue car and continue to the LS4 build and all my suspension/brake upgrades with the black notchie (not a fan of the yellow).

The 86 GT was sold over the summer.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-14-2012).]

KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #408, 01-18-2012 11:39 AM
      when are we getting another update?

fieroguru MSG #409, 01-18-2012 12:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:

when are we getting another update?


I ordered the appropriate wiring pigtail for the 3-wire temp sensor (with analog temp output for factory guages) and the LS1/LS2 map sensor. Once these get here, then I will be back working on the harness... I hate wiring...


fieroguru MSG #410, 01-22-2012 06:56 PM
      Wiring pigtails are here... but I didn't mess with the harness today.

Got started on the adjustable front coilover project:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/120718.html



Wheel fitment verification for some 17 x 8.5's on front and 18 x 10.5's on rear:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/120740.html



4 3/4" wheel bearing/bolt pattern upgrade:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/120747.html



Been a busy weekend...



fieroguru MSG #411, 01-22-2012 07:02 PM
      I have never been one to name cars (besides the color/year designation), but I think the black/yellow car will get the Impala SS LS4, G6 F40, the 13" brakes, S10 coilovers in front, C5 vette wheels, and an S10 wheel bearing upgrade... I think it deserves to be named the "Parts Bin Banshee"

Bloozberry MSG #412, 01-22-2012 07:54 PM
      If it were a dog, it'd be called a mutt.

blackrams (blackrams7@aol.com) MSG #413, 01-23-2012 03:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Ended with this:




Wow! That's the last time I take a car to you for a few tweeks.

Bump for a great project and thread.



fieroguru MSG #414, 01-23-2012 08:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by blackrams:

Wow! That's the last time I take a car to you for a few tweeks.



That's the new collapsible option to make the fiero into a subcompact that will fit in the bed of a full size truck!
Haven't quite worked out the process for expanding it back to normal size... so I will need you be bring a couple more 88's down so I can try some more!


F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #415, 01-24-2012 08:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

If it were a dog, it'd be called a mutt.


The Mutt was built and sold but will live on in the Archives.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...070315-2-066331.html

Whats up with the front wheel bearings. I guess I missed it but are you S10 ones bolt up?


fieroguru MSG #416, 01-25-2012 05:47 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by F355spider:


Whats up with the front wheel bearings. I guess I missed it but are you S10 ones bolt up?


For the fronts, I am going to redrll the stock bearing flange for 5 x 4 3/4.
The S10 bearing in the rear requires extensive machining to the bearing and upright to get the two to work together. The S10 bearing housing is 3.6" in OD and the hole in the upright is 2.8". Both are being modified to about 3.10 to allow them to fit each other.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-25-2012).]

FieroWannaBe (patond@alumni.msoe.edu) MSG #417, 01-25-2012 12:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


4 x 4 3/4.



intersting pattern..
Im sure you meant 5 x 4 3/4"

[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 01-25-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #418, 01-25-2012 12:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:


intersting pattern..
Im sure you meant 5 x 4 3/4"



Good catch!


355Fiero MSG #419, 01-25-2012 03:50 PM
      Fieroguru;

Not sure if you have already done the work on the bearings etc. for the rear hubs but the kitcar world uses S10 bearings as you are and an '89 Cutlass Ciera hub. Same mounting points but bigger bnearing mounting to fit the S10 bearing. I am pretty sure nothing is required for machining the bearing or hub to have them mate up.

Cheers
Don


fieroguru MSG #420, 01-25-2012 04:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 355Fiero:

Fieroguru;

Not sure if you have already done the work on the bearings etc. for the rear hubs but the kitcar world uses S10 bearings as you are and an '89 Cutlass Ciera hub. Same mounting points but bigger bnearing mounting to fit the S10 bearing. I am pretty sure nothing is required for machining the bearing or hub to have them mate up.

Cheers
Don


I will have to check into that... but I would prefer to only buy 2 bearings vs. 4.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-25-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #421, 01-25-2012 06:53 PM
      The rod ends/heim joints finally showed up (on back order for 1 month) so I can get started on the rod end lateral link upgrade. The rod ends are chromoly, teflon lined, with a wide format 1/2" hole on the ball end and 5/8-18 threads. They are rated for 24K lbs. The wider format and 1/2" hole greatly simplify the mounting in the stock lateral link pockets... just need two thick washers about .175" thick.






In addition to all the suspension/brake upgrades listed above, the car will also have poly bushings in front, rear coil overs, aluminum sway bar bushings front/rear and zero lash sway bar links... and that should wrap up the handling upgrades... (unless I make some aluminum upper a-arm bushings for the front..)

Work has been nuts this week and we are at peak activity for the next 3 weeks... But I should have time to continue to make progress on the weekends.


fieroguru MSG #422, 01-27-2012 07:53 PM
      Almost done with the modifying the S10 bearing and 88 upright to fit the two together... just need to modify the bearing to upright bolt pattern on the bearing now.












F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #423, 01-27-2012 08:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


For the fronts, I am going to redrll the stock bearing flange for 5 x 4 3/4.
The S10 bearing in the rear requires extensive machining to the bearing and upright to get the two to work together. The S10 bearing housing is 3.6" in OD and the hole in the upright is 2.8". Both are being modified to about 3.10 to allow them to fit each other.



So the fronts will still be 88 Fiero. I was hoping there was a better choice for the front.
thanks,


fieroguru MSG #424, 01-28-2012 07:38 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by F355spider:


So the fronts will still be 88 Fiero. I was hoping there was a better choice for the front.
thanks,


I might check into doing this same bearing/upright mod to the front as well. The bore in the upright is just a little smaller, but the bolt pattern is about 1/4" in diameter smaller.


Bloozberry MSG #425, 01-28-2012 10:06 AM
      Excellent work there fieroguru! If my eyes don't deceive me, it looks like this mod will push the wheel mounting flange outboard by only a couple millimeters as compared to stock.

fieroguru MSG #426, 01-28-2012 10:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

Excellent work there fieroguru! If my eyes don't deceive me, it looks like this mod will push the wheel mounting flange outboard by only a couple millimeters as compared to stock.


Yes, as it is right now, the flange is pushed outboard slightly. I will probably remove the needed material from the face of the upright to bring it back to the stock location.


F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #427, 01-28-2012 11:42 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


I might check into doing this same bearing/upright mod to the front as well. The bore in the upright is just a little smaller, but the bolt pattern is about 1/4" in diameter smaller.


Sounds good. I have a new set of 88 bearings stored but would be nice to have a beefier bearing. The wife's car is running some serious meat on the front.
I did a z28 front PS rack a while back with your mechanical skills it might be something to add to your arsenal of goods. I will be needing a PS set up latter. (hint)


fieroguru MSG #428, 01-28-2012 08:17 PM
      Only had about 2 hrs to spend in the garage today, but I was able to tear down the upright for the other side and get it bored as well:



Also, looked into the possibility of installing a modified S10 wheel bearing in a modified front 88 upright.
In this pic, the calipers are set for the 3.062" dimension that the S10 wheel bearing is turned down to.


The 88 front bearing bolt pattern is 3.74" diameter and a M12 bolt is .472". So the inner edge of the bolt threads will be at 3.268". With the 3.063 hole, the wall thickness would be .103"... not too much.

The other issue, is the bolt heads are .754"


The ID of the bearing housing (where the balls are) is 2.743"


So by the time the front side of the bearing housing is clearanced for the bolt heads, the wall thickness would be reduced to .122" at the notched portion.

The stock bearing wall thickness for the 88 rear wheel bearing is .117", which is thinner than the .122" the modified S10 bearing will have at the notched for the mounting bolts.
The modified S10 bearing has .160" wall thickness with it turned down to 3.062", so I could turn it down some more (.040" more) and increase the wall thickness of the upright at the bolts to .143" from .103"

The last issue would be the flange protrusion depth. The S10 wheel bearing would push the wheel flange out .44" on each side... and there really isn't mush of an opportunity to trim down the bearing (1/8" max) and the upright (probably another 1/8" max). There are 4 Timken part #'s for 4 3/4" wheel bearings that have a 1.66" wheel flange depth (vs. 1.86" on the S10 and 1.42" on the 88 Front wheel bearing), they only come with ABS and I do not know how that would impact modifying the bearing housing.

For the time being, I will probably just redrill the stock 88 front wheel bearing flanges for the 5 x 4 3/4".


fieroguru MSG #429, 01-28-2012 08:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by F355spider:


Sounds good. I have a new set of 88 bearings stored but would be nice to have a beefier bearing. The wife's car is running some serious meat on the front.
I did a z28 front PS rack a while back with your mechanical skills it might be something to add to your arsenal of goods. I will be needing a PS set up latter. (hint)


I posted the information about installing the bearing in the 88 front above. The biggest issue would be the flange depth, but you could take care of that with the proper wheel purchase. If doing both front and rear, I would recommend making all the bearings the same, that way you can do 5 at once and have a spare that will work for both front/rear.

I probably will not be doing anything with power steering for quite some time. Adding a pump to my current accessory drive would be problematic.
Besides, my wife likes my muscular arms, so might as well keep the daily workout out for them.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-28-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #430, 01-29-2012 05:33 PM
      The mount bolt holes on the flange of the S10 wheel bearing are tapped, so I modified 2 of the bolts to fit into the T-slot of the mill.


Once everything was indicated in, I drilled through the wheel flange and enlarged the hole to 3/4". Then used a 3/4" end mill to clearance the side of the bearing housing for the bolt head and to flatten the casting at the base.



Then went back though with a 1/2" end mill to drill the new holes (for the fiero upright pattern):


The two locating bolts were sacrificed for the drilling process:



Bearing all modified:



Bolted in place on the 88 Fiero rear upright:


The work to install the modified S10 wheel bearings into a modified 88 rear upright is now complete. The only part left for this project is swapping the outer CV for one from the S10 (27 spline).


fieroguru MSG #431, 01-29-2012 05:53 PM
      I also put one of the spare 88 front suspensions in the truck and took it to the car wash to clean it up some. This will be the one that gets the S10 coil over setup, poly bushings and a fresh coat of paint.






fieroguru MSG #432, 01-30-2012 07:49 PM
      One of the suspension/handling upgrades for my 88 Fiero is to replace the poly bushing lateral links with some rod end lateral links. This will eliminate any lateral deflection and provide a more consistent toe setting (important for good tire wear for the width of tires I plan to run). Several vendors already sell this upgrade, but I wanted to see if I could build a set using available off the shelf components (no custom spacers required).

The key to this conversion is the QA1 rod end that essentially has a built in spacer shaft. This is a teflon lined, chromoly, rod end that is rated for 24,000 lbs. The hole is 1/2" and it nearly fills the length of the mounting pocket on the cradle.


A test fit showed that finding a couple of washers the proper thickness could close up the gap quite well. In this pic, the washers are the washers from the lateral link bolts, but they are slightly too thin.


To put the lateral link assemblies together, you need the rod ends, swaged tubes, 5/8" jam nuts, and some spacers to close the gaps in the mounting pockets on the cradle.



Due to manufacturing tolerances, you may need to slightly widen the lateral link pocket. I used a wheel bearing bolt and 2 nuts. Thread the bolt into the nuts and install the closed end of the wrench as shown. Once the nut it tight to the head end of the bolt, tighten the other one to push the wall out slightly:



Then install the links with the thick washers on both sides:



The rear pocket is a little short to allow the rod end to stand up. You could use a pry bar to push the top of the pocket up, or just leave the rod end at an angle:



The links mount to the upright with thick washers on both sides of the rod ends:




Here is a list of part #'s, quantities and prices:
code:

Part mfg. Part # Qty Price Total
QA1 Rod Ends – ½” hole, 5/8-18 thread PCYMR8-10T 4 $15.95 $63.80
QA1 Rod Ends – ½” hole, 5/8-18 thread PCYML8-10T 4 $14.95 $59.80
Afco Swaged steel tube 5/8-18 L/R, ¾” diam, 8” length 36178 2 $9.88 $19.76
Afco Swaged steel tube 5/8-18 L/R, ¾” diam, 9” length 36179 2 $10.88 $21.76
Thin 5/8-18 LH Grade 5 zinc coated nuts (10 pack) 99612A159 1 $7.38 $7.39
Thin 5/8-18 RH Grade 5 zinc coated nuts (25 pack) 99612A535 1 $6.61 $6.61
M12 thick washer, black oxide, 4.5-5.4mm (5 pack) 9804A107 4 $6.45 $25.80

Total (not including Shipping/Handling) $204.91




The QA1 rod ends and Afco tubes were purchased from Summit Racing - it did take about 1 month for the QA1 rod ends to arrive (they were back ordered at the time).
The rest of the nuts/bolts/washers came from McMasterCarr.

As you can see this project will set you back about $205 + shipping which is less than most vendors are charging for this upgrade. You might be able to save some $$ on the jam nuts and spacers, but I wanted the nuts grade 5 and zinc coated and a single thick washer on both sides.

I am sure these components are not DOT approved, so this should be considered for off-road use only (and no, I will not be selling these kits).


Stubby79 MSG #433, 01-30-2012 11:11 PM
      Since they're open to the elements, is wear an issue for rod ends like that?

Edit: Nevermind, I see your thread in the tech section has already adressed this.

[This message has been edited by Stubby79 (edited 01-30-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #434, 02-04-2012 07:17 PM
      Almost done with the lateral link relocation at the upright. This modification lowers the lateral and trailing links at the upright to either restore the supension to the stock geometry when the rear is lowered 1.5" OR to improve the camber curve on a stock height Fiero. The lateral link mount locations are lowered 1 1/2" from stock.

Cardboard vision:



16ga template (left) and then the 1/8" steel parts for both uprights:



Bolted together:




I still need to make the piece that will bolt to the backside of the casting (under the nut in the pic) and help reinforce the trailing link mount:

The only mod to the upright is this corner of the casting is rounded off:


I am still waiting on the steel sleeve for the new lateral link mounts and shorter M14 and M12 bolts.


thedrue MSG #435, 02-04-2012 09:10 PM
      wow, I really like that solution to the 88 geometry issue. I hope you sell those and if you need another to try it out I will be putting an 88 cradle in my 3.4 turbo car within the next couple months and really like the look of these as the car is lowered substantially.

Keep up the good work!


fieroguru MSG #436, 02-05-2012 07:31 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by thedrue:

wow, I really like that solution to the 88 geometry issue. I hope you sell those...

Keep up the good work!


Thanks! Once I get them finished and figure out all the time/materials to make them, I might offer them for sale... probably in the $250 to $300 range for the set.


thedrue MSG #437, 02-05-2012 02:41 PM
      Sounds good, keep us all informed. I think this is the best solution to this problem. Raising the brackets on the cradle makes less sense to me and definitely causes more interference issues and strength issues.

this should bring the rear suspension behavior back in line with stock even with a fairly aggressive lowering.


fieroguru MSG #438, 02-08-2012 07:15 PM
      I got one side done:










fieroguru MSG #439, 02-09-2012 07:13 PM
      Here are some quick mockups. I did shim the wheel about 3/8" outboard to clear the new lateral link bracket on a 16" wheel. Once I get my wheels, tires and decide on a ride height, I will probably make another custom set of these and change them from the 1.5" relocation to something in the 2-2.5 range... just have to make sure they clear my wheels.

With 6 1/2" between cradle and floor (1/4" higher than stock ride height specified in Bloozberry's drawings) or 28" to center of wheel well opening:


Stock (lateral links are almost level):


With fieroguru lateral link relocation (lateral links angle down, will kick out the bottom of the tire for positive camber gain under compression):


With 5" between cradle and floor (1 1/4" lower than stock ride height) or 26.5" to center of wheel well opening:
Stock (lateral links already pointing up to the wheels)

With fieroguru lateral link relocation (lateral links close to level again - restores to stock suspension geometry with 1 1/2" lowering):


With 3 1/2" between cradle and floor (2 3/4" lower than stock ride height) or 25.0" to center of wheel well opening:


Stock (significant negative camber gain... definitely not good)


With fieroguru lateral link relocation (less bad - pretty much the same as the stock suspension lowered 1 1/2"):


I have to get my welding gas refilled, then I can weld up the other side.


fieroguru MSG #440, 02-11-2012 12:39 PM
      I finished the other side and modified the backing plate slightly (made it flat across the bottom) so they will now clear a 16 x 7 wheel (38mm offset):






fieroguru MSG #441, 02-11-2012 08:19 PM
      Drilled one of the front wheel bearings for the 5 x 4 3/4" pattern:

Removed the old wheel studs:


Set it up on the mill, dial indicated off the wheel pilot, locked the flange from spinning, and the drilled the flange to the required dimensions:


Reinstalled the wheel studs:



Test fit with my old C4 rotors:



fieroguru MSG #442, 02-11-2012 08:25 PM
      Ordered one 18 x 10.5 wheel for the back and one 17 x 8.5 wheel for the front. I will use these wheels to confirm fitment before I buy the other 2.

This is the rear wheel. I went with the polished lip and black powder coated center. The black color should allow the 13" rotors and by colored calipers to really stand out:


fieroguru MSG #443, 02-12-2012 06:35 PM
      Sold my first set of lateral link relocation brackets:



F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #444, 02-18-2012 09:32 AM
      bump

[This message has been edited by F355spider (edited 02-24-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #445, 02-19-2012 05:02 PM
      Started test fitting the wheels. The fronts will need some slight clearance work to the upper and lower a-arms to clear the 17x8.5 (ET 58). The rear will require about 1 5/8" shorter lateral links, a custom trailing link and most likely relocate the tops of the struts inboard 1 5/8" as well:













fieroguru MSG #446, 02-23-2012 08:19 PM
      Since I pulled the bottom of the wheel in about 1 5/8" and ran out of needed adjustment to get the wheel back to zero camber, I needed to move the top of the strut inboard as well. Finally settled on moving it inboard 1" and the method was to modify the OEM spring hat. I welded some 1/8" to the side with the 2 bolts, relocated those holes 1" and then relocated the single hole on the other side 1/2".


The plan is to remove the flange from the top of the strut tower (hole saw around the raised edge).


The inboard hole in the strut tower will need to be relocated 1/2" inboard as well and you can see in this picture where the top of the strut will need to pass through.


I do not want it to be obvious the strut top was relocated. By making the strut tower flat on top (removing the raised flange), I can make a flat triangular piece of aluminum with a single hole for the strut bushing (my bushing hat will be flipped) to clean up the look of the strut towers while hiding the modification.

Here is an underside view:


With moving everything in, the back side of the strut has about 1/2" clearance to the frame rail at ride height. With the suspension at full droop, the strut will rub against the frame rails. I might use some 3" pipe to do a slight notch to the frame rails.

As if I need anything else to do on this car... I started drawing up some tubular upper and lower a-arms for the front. Not sure if I will make them, but they are designed to clear my front wheels and work with my coil over setup. I need to weigh the stock components to see if I can save any weight with the new ones. Might also look at redoing the whole front crossmember to save some weight as well. And thinking about making some 1 1/2" dropped spindles that could work with the S10 wheel bearing... too many ideas, not enough free time...

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-23-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #447, 02-24-2012 07:13 PM
      Once side of the strut relocation is nearly done (need to make the final beauty plate vs. the 16ga mockup template):

Fabbed up the beauty plate for the top side:



Flattened the top of the strut towers with a grinder. The strut tower is 2 layers of steel. After the top panel is flat, its hole matches that of the lower panel:



Still need to remove some more material:


The stock inboard bolt hole was quite larger and very close to where the new one needed to be, so I clamped some aluminum in place and welded up the original bolt hole:


Test fit:





On Saturday, I should be able to get the other side done and make both of the beauty panels for the top.


fieroguru MSG #448, 03-04-2012 08:24 PM
      Since I needed to remove the dogbone bracket for the passenger side strut relocation, I went ahead and worked on cleaning up the engine bay.

Before:




After:




Removed crap:


I still need to remove the decklid hinge boxes and move the transmission bulge back about 3/4"... then it will be time to clean/paint the engine bay.


fieroguru MSG #449, 03-17-2012 03:43 PM
      Finished cutting out the decklid hinge boxes and installing the new low profile hinges. Also moved the stock transmission bulge in the driver side frame rail 1/2" to the rear and smoothed out the welds... engine bay of this new car is getting ready for a test fit of the LS4/F40 (possible custom route for the shifter cables., then it will be time to paint this engine bay.




Syn (matthew.ryan.prince@gmail.com) MSG #450, 03-25-2012 12:28 PM
      any updates?

fieroguru MSG #451, 03-25-2012 08:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Syn:

any updates?


No progress this week.
An 88 formula with 3.4TDC/getrag combo was dropped off with a miss (bad plug wire), so fixed that and now doing a Rodney S10 booster evaluation on this car.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...121747.html#lastpost
After the booster swap, I am planning on weighting this car on the same scales as I weighed my 88 GT Clone with SBC/Getrag and 88 coupe with 4.3/4T60 to expand my 88 engine swap database.

I also added another 88 to the personal fleet this weekend. I call it "4cyl fastback" because that is what it is. Started life as an 88 coupe 4cyl/auto and underwent a GT conversion except for the engine/tranny. This will be my daily driver shortly. I will get this one weighed as well, then eventually swap in an isuzu and reweigh it.


I should be back working on the LS4 engine bay and wiring here shortly. I would like to have this swap running this spring.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-25-2012).]

Jefrysuko MSG #452, 03-26-2012 01:33 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I also added another 88 to the personal fleet this weekend.



Good to see you Rollin in a Fiero again there Guru. I saw that car in the mall and thought it looked nice. Hope it does you well as a DD.


dobey MSG #453, 04-17-2012 09:46 AM
      Got it running yet?

fieroguru MSG #454, 04-17-2012 11:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

Got it running yet?


Nope... Probably won't before the move, so I will just slide it into place and then pull it to the new house.


dobey MSG #455, 04-17-2012 08:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Nope... Probably won't before the move, so I will just slide it into place and then pull it to the new house.


Ah. Didn't know you were moving. Congrats (I hope), and hope everything goes smooth with the move.


fieroguru MSG #456, 04-19-2012 07:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Ah. Didn't know you were moving. Congrats (I hope), and hope everything goes smooth with the move.


It wasn't really planned. Been leasing the current place for the last 3 years and the lease expires on June 30th. We approached the landlord a few weeks ago working to renew it early for another 18 months and were told the house is being sold...

It is difficult to find a rental with the needed room for my automotive/metal fabrication hobby, so we are just going to buy... Sold my last house back in 2006 and been waiting out the housing market for 6 years, it is a pretty good time to buy.


ZombiePenguin (zombiepenguin69@gmail.com) MSG #457, 05-07-2012 07:04 PM
      bump for updates

fieroguru MSG #458, 05-07-2012 07:38 PM
      Been slacking... selling lots of spare parts in preparation of the move, selling quite a few brake kits, and making some decisions about the LS4/F40.

To get the engine running, I am going to install it with the stock LS4 MAF, LS4 Throttle body, and LS4 Injectors. This will simplify the initial startup tuning as the biggest change would be the Intake, Cam and LS7 manifolds (which is a significant change, but less than chaning the MAF, TB and Injectors at the same time as well). Once I have the car dialed in with those parts, then I can add the Injectors and tweaks the injector constants to dial it back in. Then add the throttle body and tweak. Then add the LS2 MAF and finish dialing it in with the MAF tables. Tuning this thing isn't going to be fun...

Found a house, offer was made and we have a purchase contract. Closing date is June 8th and I have to be fully moved by June 30th. My new garage is 5' narrower than my current one (larger one will be built in a year or two), so I had to figure out where everything goes in the new place. This is the general location, but subject to change:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-07-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #459, 05-07-2012 07:50 PM
      Here is a start on the adapter plate to bolt the LS4 throttle body to the LS2 intake manifold. It needs to be 3/4" thick to allow the throttle motor on the LS4 throttle body to clear the LS2 intake. It is also offset from center about 1/8" for the needed clearance. This adapter will be shaped on its perimeter to better match the LS2 intake flange vs. keeping it a simple rectangle.



[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 05-07-2012).]

dobey MSG #460, 05-18-2012 05:04 PM
      You're aware that the LS4 injectors don't fit the LS2 intake, right? They're a smaller diameter than the LS2 intake and fuel rail accepts. And the LS4 rail won't fit over the LS2 intake either.


fieroguru MSG #461, 06-04-2012 08:05 PM
      Spent most of the evening putting the black car back into rolling state with the LS4/F40 in the engine bay so I can dolly it to the new house. It will be early to mid July before I get my new garage in order to the point of finishing this swap. I still need to pack the interior with all the boxes of parts for this swap.


iluvsd619 (luv6192000@yahoo.com) MSG #462, 07-01-2012 10:42 PM
      Had to Bump for you. Just waiting.

fieroguru MSG #463, 07-24-2012 08:01 PM
      Finally got the new garage to the point I could fit the LS4/F40 coupe in it... now I just need to get focused on actually working on it again!




dobey MSG #464, 07-27-2012 09:13 AM
      Nice! Looking forward to seeing more updates and seeing how your flywheel/clutch works out.

fieroguru MSG #465, 08-26-2012 08:10 PM
      Owing a house again after 6.5 years renting is a good and bad thing... Good in that I will eventually be able to build a larger garage (had 4500+ sq ft of garage space in IL), bad in that my wife for the first time in 6.5 years can request changes/updates to the house. So I have been very busy with house stuff (alarming all windows, installing an 8 camera security system, cell phone booster, outdoor temp gizmo, no soliciting sign, power washing the exterior and the deck... it truly is an endless list that she adds to on a daily basis (this week it is porch swing and kids swingset/play house).

We also sold the commercial building back in IL last week which makes us very, very happy and should help enable a garage expansion in the next year or two.

I was able to get caught up on my current honey do list and worked on getting the LS4/F40 back out of the chassis so I can start working on it some more.


Today I ordered a bunch of needed parts: backup light pigtail, 100 ECM pins, AN fittings and PTFE braided hose for the fuel lines, replacement AC compressor hose, and rubber isolation mounts for the ecm. I think this is the place the ecm will be mounted. I just need to make a couple of brackets for it off the start mount and the front transmission mount.




Trinten MSG #466, 08-26-2012 10:43 PM
      Garage is looking great, so is that engine!

Congrats on the sale!


dobey MSG #467, 08-27-2012 10:09 AM
      Don't know if you've thought about it much at all, but I noticed that my Avalanche has a bracket which mounts the ECM in a vertical position, and thought it might be possible to use it in a Fiero. I haven't looked into how it mounts up into detail yet though.

http://www.tonkinonlinepart...104047/15905990.html


fieroguru MSG #468, 08-28-2012 07:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

Don't know if you've thought about it much at all, but I noticed that my Avalanche has a bracket which mounts the ECM in a vertical position, and thought it might be possible to use it in a Fiero. I haven't looked into how it mounts up into detail yet though.

http://www.tonkinonlinepart...104047/15905990.html


GM doesn't normally do a clean/space efficient job of mounting the ECM, so I just planned on using these rubber isolation feet bolted to a backing plate that bolts to the front transmission mount. The 4 feet were $12 shipped. Sorry for the crappy ebay pic.


fieroguru MSG #469, 08-28-2012 07:59 PM
      I am going to try and get something completed on the swap every couple of days so progress will continue.

Tonight I welded in the two O2 sensor bungs. One for the ECM and the other for the wideband:


Then drilled the muffler support bracket to accept the harness side O2 connector:


I needed to get the o2 sensor located so I can start building the harness which starts with the camshaft sensor and the O2 sensor.


Bloozberry MSG #470, 08-28-2012 09:15 PM
      Good to see you're back at it. The same two or three threads have dominated the top of the CZ long enough!

fieroguru MSG #471, 08-29-2012 09:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

Good to see you're back at it. The same two or three threads have dominated the top of the CZ long enough!


Yeah, I am glad to be making progress again!

Tonight I was late getting home, but had several parts waiting for me:





fieroguru MSG #472, 08-30-2012 08:27 PM
      More goodies showed up today:

For repining the harness at the ecm:


Connection at the fuel rail - GM quick disconnect to -6 AN (the 2nd picture also shows the -6 AN hose end installed):



Connection to the LS2 Vette fuel pressure regulator - GM quick disconnect to -6 AN (the 2nd picture alsp shows the -6 AN 90 hose fitting and the LS2 Vette fuel filter/regulator):



Pigtail for the reverse light switch on the F40 (spendy little thing at $40+):



Then I started to play with the AC hose connection at the compressor. I knew it wouldn't clear the exhaust in stock form, but suspected that with some gentle massaging I could make it clear:
Before:



After:




I probably could have pulled it outward, but there was plenty of unused room behind it and with that routing it would leave me with room to get my hands up there to change the plugs some day. I already have some new AC hose in a box, so I will just cut the current hose off, install some new hose and cut it to fit with the stock fiero chassis ends.

I really hate wiring and am somewhat fanatical about how it looks. It should be hidden as much as possible, the harness should be as small & skinny as possible and there should be a logical flow for the wires that can be seen (and the ones that can't). So here is a peak at the start of the harness build:




So far the Cam Sensor, Common Ground, ECM O2 Sensor, Oil Level Sensor, B2 Knock, and Crankshaft sensor have been loomed in heat shrink with the VSS and Temp portions getting ready to joint the harness. Lots more to do and the wires will start being added like crazy with the 4 coils and 4 injectors being added before reaching the center of the engine. The the ECM Oil Pressure sensor, DOD connector, MAF, DBW throttle and reverse lights at the center of the engine, then 4 more injectors, 4 more coils, map sensor and starter down the other side, then to the oil pressure sender for the gauge cluster, B1 knock sensor, alternator, and AC compressor.

Right now I am planning to completely eliminate the 500 connector. The rear lights/body harness with be spliced in directly to the body harness and the wires ran down through the fuel tank tunnel, into the double firewall panel, then through a hole I will drill in the B-pillar base, then the harness will be in the passenger wheel well and continue the stock routing path. This setup is very similar to how I ran the harness on my Ramjet/Getrag swap. The engine side of the 500 will probably just be a terminal strip in the console where the ECM used to go. Plenty of room for it and this will keep the size of the harness that needs to pass through the firewall as small as possible.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 08-30-2012).]

Bloozberry MSG #473, 09-02-2012 08:53 PM
      One of the things I like the most about this thread is your high quality pictures. It can easily take as much time to set up, take, crop, resize, and post the pictures as it often does to actually work on the car, something that not many people are willing to do.

fieroguru MSG #474, 09-03-2012 09:04 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

One of the things I like the most about this thread is your high quality pictures. It can easily take as much time to set up, take, crop, resize, and post the pictures as it often does to actually work on the car, something that not many people are willing to do.


Thanks! For me it is just part of the process of documenting so I have some references to go back to at a later date (especially part #'s for the components I used) and to help others follow along. My commentary also helps me remember what I was thinking at the time.

As for the time to get all the pictures... It took some trial and error, but now I have it setup were I literally shoot the pic, upload it (multiple at a time) and copy/paste the link without having to do any resizing/cropping/editing to the pics. I have a camera for car stuff and I set it to a lower resolution since they will be uploaded anyway (and I get more pictures capacity per SD card). Then I setup my photobucket account to auto convert every picture uploaded to a preset size. Once the upload is complete, it automatically gives me the link to the picture with the proper tags so it is a copy/paste.

I am sure I will get ragged on for not using PIP and hosting the pictures through PFF... but the issue is I share these pictures on multiple forums. The ones hosted on a PFF server are not allowed to be hotlinked from any other forum - they are for PFF only. If you try, you get this for all your pictures:


So to post the pictures anywhere else but PFF, I have to use something like photobucket and can't justify the extra effort to upload every picture to two separate servers.



fieroguru MSG #475, 09-03-2012 09:23 AM
      Made a little more progress with harness building and I am up to the point of the even # injectors joining the harness and you can see that I am trying to keep the harness tucked up close to the engine and hidden under the coils. This portion of the harness will be loomed in the normal automotive slip loom material.


I started the process of typing up all the terminations for the 3 connectors at the ecm and adding the termination point at the other side. Long tedius process but it lets be blow apart the harness and route it like I want it wire by wire. It also allows me to see what information I still need to track down... Like the Tach output for the E67 ecm I am using. The LS4 service manual does not list a specific tach output from the ECM as that signal is handled through the GMLAN. However, there were at least 3 other E67 applications that had a dedicated tach line from the ecm (GMPP crate motor ecm, TBSS and CTSV) - all of these have the tach wire installed at C1 Pin 25. Also, the VSS normally goes through the TCM, but the CTSV and TBSS had manual transmissions and connected the VSS directly to the E67 ECM at C3 Pin 66/67 with the output at C1 pin 39. Now I just have to figure out how to enable those functions w/o losing DoD...



Danyel MSG #476, 09-03-2012 12:07 PM
      Added to my favorites .... PM sent about the F40 ... I also agree with Bloozberry



fieroguru MSG #477, 09-08-2012 02:37 PM
      I was able to fab up the ecm mount today. It uses two of the front transmission mount bolts and has spacers between it and the blue transmission mount. The rear tab is just tack welded in the place for the pic:





F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #478, 09-08-2012 09:39 PM
      Is that AC hose from the LS4? Does it fit the Fiero connection?

fieroguru MSG #479, 09-08-2012 10:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by F355spider:

Is that AC hose from the LS4? Does it fit the Fiero connection?


Yes, that is an OEM LS4 AC hose, no the other end will not fit the fiero chassis connection. I am planning to remove the hoses, install new ones with the needed fiero end.


fieroguru MSG #480, 09-11-2012 07:39 PM
      The plug wires arrived today. They are a universal cut-to-fit V8 set from Summit Racing with 45 degree boots at the plugs. Just need to cut them and add the MSD coil ends to them:


[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 09-11-2012).]

KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #481, 09-12-2012 06:02 AM
      Nice to see progress again. I'll be back in the states in December and hope to pick up an LS4 around then.



fieroguru MSG #482, 09-19-2012 07:41 PM
      Haven't had much free time lately, but some more parts came in and did complete a few small projects for the swap.

http://www.siliconeintakes.com sent me the TB to MAF reducer, a 4" elbow for the filter, and several stainless t bar clamps.



http://www.saxonpc.com/airflow-products.html supplied a new mesh screen for the MAF. It is has larger holes for more flow, but is longer to help align the air stream before the MAF.
This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.



The 4" diameter stainless exhaust tube arrived a couple weeks back, so I cut it to the needed shape for the heat shield between the muffler and the trunk and welded it to the muffler:



Then I started to play around with the routing of the plug wires. I mocked each side up slightly different as I determine which one I like looking at. Here is the front side. The wires are stacked on top of each other and remain stacked while they meet up with the coils:


The rear side is slightly different in that the wires pretty much lay over as they turn to the coils. This setup ever so slightly covers the corner of the valve cover.


The last thing I messed with was the plastic air intake tube. I cut off the OEM expansion section and added the 90 degree elbow. Here is an old mockup pick, notice I just taped the MAF to the TB and the expansion portion was fully collapsed and wrapped with electrical tape.


Here it is again with the proper silicone reducer and the elbow:



fieroguru MSG #483, 09-22-2012 03:40 PM
      Small steps...

Today I finished up building the plug wires:




Also ordered a 3" 45 degree bend so I can add a heat shield between the front manifold and the AC lines here:


fieroguru MSG #484, 09-23-2012 12:52 PM
      Did a little more work on the harness. The rear half of the engine harness is loomed, added the connector for the DOD circuit, installed the shrink tube on the oil pressure switch, and started to connect the MAP sensor with the front Injector harness. I seem to have lost the original 5 wire maf harness, but it might have ended up in the large box of connectors...



fieroguru MSG #485, 09-26-2012 06:09 PM
      The stainless bend came in yesterday, so today I knocked out the heat shield for the front manifold to help keep the heat off the AC lines and off the harness that will run along the block.





fieroguru MSG #486, 09-29-2012 02:35 PM
      The PVC/Catch Can install is now done as well (might do something different with the rear hose running along the valve cover). Once I found the right place to mount the catch can, I fabbed up a bracket to hold it solid to the transmission:




The fresh air source was a little bit of a challenge. The stock LS4 has the clean air source for the PCV system pulled from the inlet tract between the MAF and the TB, but this OEM piece will not work with the larger MAF and LS2 TB:


Since I am using a silicone sleeve between the MAF and Throttlebody, I needed to drill a hole and put in a hose barb fitting. I ended up taking a brass 90 fitting, found a washer that would slide past the threads and another one that didn't. Then I tapped the ID of the washer so it would become the nut for the back side. I used some RTV (between the washer and silicone sleeve) and loctite (on the threads) to ensure the washer won't come free and be ingested by the engine.




I am thinking about either making an aluminum hard line for the hose between the rear valve cover and the hose barb on the silicone sleeve or running some brake line inside the hose so I can form it to the precise shape I want (needs to run parallel with the valve cover).




Trinten MSG #487, 09-29-2012 05:46 PM
      looking awesome man... I wish I had your skills! (and a place to work on the car)

Bloozberry MSG #488, 09-30-2012 08:04 AM
      I like the catch can. I must've missed where you got it from. Is there some kind of sight gauge on it to let you know it's full?

fieroguru MSG #489, 09-30-2012 08:22 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

I like the catch can. I must've missed where you got it from. Is there some kind of sight gauge on it to let you know it's full?


It came from eBay for under $50. It does have some fittings for the side and a section of poly tube so you can see how full it is, but it would be on the backside and not visible where the can is mounted and the direction the lines coming out the top. I need to plug the original holes and drill/tap 2 new ones on the outer edge so I can see the level through the wheel well.



fieroguru MSG #490, 10-13-2012 07:23 PM
      Did a little more on the harness. Everything on the rear and top side is loomed down to the starter. Still need to loom up the front side (alternator, AC, Knock, Oil Pressure), then I can start the termination process at the ECM, then install the engine for all the terminations inside the car (500, 203, Fuel and AC relays, DBW pedal, etc).







Also, the radiator arrived:


fieroguru MSG #491, 10-14-2012 04:34 PM
      Spent most of the day documenting the wire/circuit/sensor terminations for all the ECM connectors and the Fiero 203/500 specific to this swap. As I decide what to keep/omit, I wanted to know what all te inhibitors were for DoD activation. Here is a list:

1. Engine manifold vacuum low
2. Brake booster vacuum pressure low
3. Accelerator pedal position rate of increase too high, electronic throttle control
4. Accelerator pedal position too high, electronic throttle control
5. Ignition voltage out of range
6. Engine oil pressure out of range
7. Engine oil temperature out of range
8. Engine RPM out of range
9. Transmission gear incorrect
10. Transmission range incorrect
11. Transmission gear shift in progress
12. All cylinders activated via scan tool output control
13. Minimum time in V8 mode not met
14. Maximum V4 mode time exceeded
15. Engine oil aeration present
16. Decel fuel cutoff active
17. Fuel shut-off timer active
18. Minimum heater temp low, HVAC system
19. Reduced engine power active, electronic throttle control
20. Brake torque management active
21. Axle torque limiting active
22. Engine metal over temperature protection active
23. Catalytic converter over temperature protection active
24. Piston protection active, knock detected
25. Hot coolant mode
26. Engine over speed protection active
27. Fault active or Fault Pending - cylinder deactivation is disabled for the following faults:
*** Brake Booster Vacuum Sensor
*** Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor
*** Engine Oil Pressure Sensor
*** Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor
*** Vehicle Speed Sensor
*** Crankshaft Position Sensor
*** Engine Misfire Detected
*** Cylinder Deactivation Solenoid Driver Circuit

As you can see the DoD setup is quite finicky and everything has to be in the programed ranges for it to work. Now as I try to get the system to work with a manual transmission, these are my 4 biggest concerns.

9. Transmission gear incorrect
10. Transmission range incorrect
11. Transmission gear shift in progress
*** Vehicle Speed Sensor

All communication about the transmission (Gear, Range or mid-shift) only happens through the High Speed GMLAN Serial Data Bus and there are no traditional inputs to the ECM for these. So if I need to fake the ECM into thinking it is in Drive, and 4th gear is engaged, then all that trickery has to happen on the TCM.

My concern about the VSS is that the two VSS wires go to the VSS and only a single VSS wire goes from the TCM to ECM (stock E67 LS4 calibration). Many other swaps using the E67 in a manual configuration were able to run both VSS wires directly to the ECM and get the Speedo to work, but the vehicle speed within the ECM (from a scanner) wouldn't show vehicle speed. The concern is if the ECM doesn't show the vehicle speed, will it enable DoD, or is it even looking for the VSS approval from the ECM, or does it come from the TCM through the High Speed GMLAN Serial Data Bus...

Probably the safest bet it to plan on installing the TCM in the center console area...


dobey MSG #492, 10-16-2012 05:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
My concern about the VSS is that the two VSS wires go to the VSS and only a single VSS wire goes from the TCM to ECM (stock E67 LS4 calibration). Many other swaps using the E67 in a manual configuration were able to run both VSS wires directly to the ECM and get the Speedo to work, but the vehicle speed within the ECM (from a scanner) wouldn't show vehicle speed. The concern is if the ECM doesn't show the vehicle speed, will it enable DoD, or is it even looking for the VSS approval from the ECM, or does it come from the TCM through the High Speed GMLAN Serial Data Bus...

Probably the safest bet it to plan on installing the TCM in the center console area...


The E67 manual swaps you refer to are DoD/AFM-free swaps I presume, and don't have TCMs? Or have other people swapped in DoD engines with manual transmissions somewhere that I haven't seen yet? Would like to see more information on them if so.

Are you planning to use the 4t65e TCM from an LS4 car, or some other solution that could actually determine gear from speed/load/etc… inputs based on programming of gear ratios from the trans, and tire size?


fieroguru MSG #493, 10-16-2012 06:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:
The E67 manual swaps you refer to are DoD/AFM-free swaps I presume, and don't have TCMs? Or have other people swapped in DoD engines with manual transmissions somewhere that I haven't seen yet? Would like to see more information on them if so.

Are you planning to use the 4t65e TCM from an LS4 car, or some other solution that could actually determine gear from speed/load/etc… inputs based on programming of gear ratios from the trans, and tire size?


Correct. There are no E67 applications with DoD/AFM and a manual transmission, and no known completed manual swaps that kept DoD... I am a glutton for punishment.

I am planning to keep the stock 4T65e-hd TCM to start with. The crazy idea I have is to hardwire the TCM inputs so the TCM thinks its in Drive (at shifter) and in 4th (actual drive gear) and then let the VSS speed change. Might play with some bulbs and resistors to get everything to be correct for these parameters as that is what DoD is looking for. So my trigger for DoD will largely be RPM and VSS driven (given MAP and all the other factors are in range). If I restrict the RPM to be between 1600 and 2300 and the vehicle speed to be above 55 mph, then from 55 to 65 DoD would work in 5th or 6th gears and from 65 to 79 it would only work in 6th. My goal with the manual setup is to only have DoD function at highway/interstate speeds... mainly because it will sound like crap in 4 cyl mode with my loud exhaust, and I want it to sound good while tooling through town...

I still need to document all the TCM pin locations and resistance values for all the solenoids and pressure/temp sensors to see what my options are.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-16-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #494, 10-16-2012 06:24 PM
      Speaking of documenting... I am nearly done with all the ECM/203/500 termination documentation (might have a few typo's still) and I hope the E67 LS4 guys will find this helpful.

EDIT: Drawings updated for some revisions on 10/18... If you saved the earlier versions, delete them and save the current ones.





[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-18-2012).]

Jims88 MSG #495, 10-16-2012 09:16 PM
      Ohhhhhh...............thats not helpful...............THATS FREAKING AWSEOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Thank You fieroguru!


fieroguru MSG #496, 10-18-2012 06:49 PM
      I updated the wiring documents above, so if you save them already, you probably want the revisions (added the DCL connector and updates lots of info in the other connectors).

The electrical circuit side is one of my weaknesses... so as I look at what I can do to fool the TCM into thinking the 4T65e-hd is still present and working, I am taking a rather simplistic approach... and likely doing some things wrong. Any TCM circuit experts feel free to provide other suggestions.

The major unknown right now is how much of the TCM functions have to be correct in order for the TCM to give the ECM the go ahead for DoD activation. So at this point I am planning to error on the side of doing too much (I can always remove them later) vs. not doing enough and having to revisit the issue. The chart below has the majority of my thoughts/plans, but a high level plan of action:

1: Hard wire the inputs from the Range Selections so the TCM see's the transmission in DRIVE
2: All solenoid circuits wired up with fiero side marker light bulbs so they will see a load.
3: Wire up the fluid Temp with a resistor so the TCM thinks the transmission is at about 175 degrees
4: Connect all the normal wires between the TCM/ECM and external inputs as normal

Once those are done, I am down to two issues.
The VSS could be connected from the F40 to the TCM.... But then the TCM will see the 60Kppm vs 24K... Might just add a 30 tooth reluctor on the tripod housing or intermediate shaft (unless I can just progam the TCM to look for the 60K ppm input).
The ISS... only way to mimic this signal is to add a reluctor to the transmission input shaft... which won't be easy. I could added it to the engine crankshaft (possibly mill the OD of the flywheel or bolt it on the balancer), but not sure if the TCM will go nuts with the ISS seeing speed while the VSS is stationary (when stopped and the clutch in). The only time the 4T65e-hd sees this in Park/Neutral, but the TCM will not see the transmission in Park/Neutral).

Here is the updated TCM wiring details (the items in Blue are the items I am still working on - ISS, TCC unlock confirmation, Stop light input):

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 10-18-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #497, 10-20-2012 07:00 PM
      Getting closer to having the engine side of the harness done...


Hopefully on Sunday I will add in the A/C pressure sender and loom up the front harness containing the Alternator, A/C clutch, A/C pressure switch, Ground to engine, B1 Knock, Fiero Oil pressure sender and finish up the engine side of things. The wire bundle across the exhaust manifold is the portion of the harness that will enter the center console area (500, 203, TCM and A/C & fuel relay will all be in the center console area). I still need to add in the wires for the throttle pedal, brake booster sensor and the ones to the TCM.

Re-pinning the terminals at the ECM takes a special crimp tool.
The professional version costs about $300,
The one from LSxTune is about $32, http://www.lsxtune.com/shop..._170/products_id/362
This one from radio shack is $9.99 and the one I have been using so far (ordered the LSxTune one as well):



I also found on the truck forum where they were tricking the T42 TCM's shift solenoids with a 1K resistor when swapping in a 4T80 (it had 1 less shift solenoid) so that is promising. They also had other swaps with the T42 TCM where they swapped in a transmission w/o the ISS sensor and were able to tune it out. I still need to check on some things. I may add a 2nd VSS sensor to the transmission and point it at the output shaft gear (22 tooth pinion that drives the 78 tooth ring gear). The 22 would be close to the 25 the TCM is looking for and may be close enough to make adjustments in the tune. Now I need to see if there is a good spot on the case to drill through to mount the sensor.


fieroguru MSG #498, 10-21-2012 03:16 PM
      Installed the A/C pressure sender for the ECM. Found a brass fitting with a 1/8 NPT on one end and used a M10-1.5 die to rethread the other end. Then it was a matter of drilling/tapping the high side fitting at the compressor. I coated the threads with JB-Weld before threading them in to help ensure a leak free seal.





With the last engine sensor installed, I finished up the engine harness (except soldering on the starter terminal end):






The center connector on the ECM is now fully compete. The other two still need quite a few wires from the other various components that will be in the console/foot well/brake booster area.

Next step is to reinstall the engine/transmission in the chassis and continue to finalize the wiring, fuel filter location, build the fuel line and mockup the coolant hoses. Then everything will come out again to finalize the engine bay.


fieroguru MSG #499, 10-27-2012 07:38 PM
      DBW throttle pedal is now installed. I fabbed up an aluminum bracket to mount the pedal to, then the aluminum bracket bolts to the stock fiero pedal mount. This allows the pedal to be slide to the drivers side enough to clear the brake booster vacuum tube. All I need to do for this was remove the plastic mounting block that comes with the throttle pedal (this block is also the primary throttle stop).



Since I removed the primary throttle stop, I welded on a new one. It is just some 3/16" steel the proper thickness welded to the backside of the throttle pedal arm so it will bottom out against the aluminum bracket.


Stock fiero throttle mounting bracket:
This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

DBW pedal installed:



I also started on the interior jumper harness for the DBW pedal and Brake Booster sensor. It will have a 3 wire connector for the booster sensor right by the pedal assy. The other end will have a 10 pin connector (3 wires for sensor, 6 wires for pedal). This way I can removed the interior harness when needed and the engine side will have the other side of the 10 pin connector. Should finish this sub harness up on Sunday.


fieroguru MSG #500, 10-28-2012 04:27 PM
      Finished up the jumper harness for the throttle pedal and the brake booster sensor:


Drilled a hole in the plastic HVAC panel right by the C100 connector for the brake booster harness to pass through:



It is hard to see in this picture, but the harness comes through the firewall and goes under the C100 and under the brake booster to the other side:


Plenty of excess wire for when the sensor is installed in the booster. The raised flat circular surface will be drilled for the new sensor:


Back inside, the pedals were installed again and the jumper harness connected and routed through the center console area:






Also started working on the wiring for the TCM. All the needed resistors to mimic the solenoids and temp sensor as well as the 120 ohm terminator in the GMLAN line were all added in the body of the harness.


Still more wiring to be done...


fieroguru MSG #501, 11-03-2012 05:43 PM
      Spent most of the day prepping the chassis wiring... relocating the pass through firewall connector and eliminating the 500 connector.

Here is the stock firewall where the single pass through connector will go:


My drill guide to round the corners of the cutout:


Connector in its new home:


Then it was time to work on the 500 harness and prep it for removing the actual 500 connector:


Once the connector was gone, I separated the wires from engine side to tail light side:


The bulkhead connector on this harness needed to be removed, so boiled some water in a pot and then set it in the car (on a rotor). Soaking the connector for about 5 minutes in hot water softens the glue to the point that is is fairly easy to disassemble the connector:



Did the same to the tail light harness 500 connector:


Using a hole saw, I cut through 2 sections of steel below the B-pillar area which gave me access to the double firewall section. I fished a piece of steel rod through there and taped the tail light harness to it. Also drilled a 5/8" hole in the console area to pass the wires into the fuel tank/double firewall section. Tape the wires to the steel rod and pull it back out:



Underside of fuel tank/double firewall area:


The the tail light harness wires were cut to the proper length and splices, soldered, shrink wrapped and loomed:




Trinten MSG #502, 11-03-2012 06:01 PM
      Wow... at some point, we all need to chip in and get you just a completely mint, stripped down Fiero frame/cradle... and just let you re-engineer the whole thing from the ground up, and sell the new designs to GM. The attention to detail is just that good... always impressive updates man.

F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #503, 11-05-2012 09:56 PM
      Any new updates?

fieroguru MSG #504, 11-06-2012 06:11 PM
      Nothing new to report from Sunday to today... spent 3.5 hrs moving the grass for the last time (hopefully) and doing the honey-do list for winterizing. The only thing productive was moving all the removed parts from the 88 to the attic and crawl space so there was room in the garage to walk around.

Not much will happen till this weekend as I am swapped with work. Hopefully this coming weekend the engine/transmission will be back in the car to finish the harness and fuel system plumbing.


fieroguru MSG #505, 11-07-2012 09:19 AM
      ...Accidental bump!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-07-2012).]

Bloozberry MSG #506, 11-07-2012 03:47 PM
      Great tip about removing the resin block from the wire bundle that passes through the firewall... boiling it off.

I'm sure I missed it earlier on in your thread, but what's the reason you're keeping the TCM? Is it to avoid reprogramming the stock PCM by fooling it into thinking the automatic tranny is still there?


fieroguru MSG #507, 11-07-2012 04:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

I'm sure I missed it earlier on in your thread, but what's the reason you're keeping the TCM? Is it to avoid reprogramming the stock PCM by fooling it into thinking the automatic tranny is still there?


I have HP tuner and will be fully tuning the engine for the MAF, Injector, Camshaft and exhaust changes, but there are limitations as to what the tuning packages can manipulate.

Keeping the TCM is all about keeping Displacement on Demand or Active Fuel Management functional. The ECM must see 3 inputs from the TCM to enable DoD and those inputs happen over the GM High Speed LAN... which I can't manipulate. So I kept the TCM to fake the inputs into it so it will send the right signals through the GM LAN... or atleast that is how I "think" it will work.

If I can't get DoD to work, then I will probably swap out the cam to something more agressive and retrofit the engine to variable cam timing (I started with a Gen 4 engine, so I can swap over the parts and use the same E67 ecm with a different application code pretty easily).


fieroguru MSG #508, 11-07-2012 06:13 PM
      The oil fill hole in the F40 is threaded for a M18-1.5 plug... just like an O2 Sensor plug.


So I ordered 2 stainless steel ones ($12 shipped) like this to confirm:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-07-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #509, 11-10-2012 06:45 PM
      After cleaning up the garage again, I was able to spend a couple of hours working on something that was "done" but I didn't like the looks of it. I wasn't feeling the rubber hose going from the throttle body/maf coupler to the rear valve cover. So I decided to redo it with 3/8" hard steel line. Once it was went into the proper shape, I cut the barb portion off the valve cover end, fabbed up a 5/16" internal tube splice, then silver soldered the valve cover side, and JB welded the other side. I didn't silver solder the other side due to the paint/primer on the tube and I wanted it to have as little movement as possible while setting up.





I am much happier with this setup. Once the tube is painted semi-gloss black it will fade away into the intake manifold. I still need to trim the end at the throttle body and run a short section of hose to connect it.



I also started work on the fuel tank mod/vent tube relocation very similar to what 84bill did:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...100421-2-082612.html

I spent an hour working on the thread-in nipple/washer to raise the vent, but I was too aggressive with the feed speed on the lathe and broke it. I have a new one to start over with, but that will have to wait till Sunday.


fieroguru MSG #510, 11-11-2012 04:11 PM
      Busy day...

I finished the fuel tank vent mod which should get me .6 gallon increase in usable capacity.




Soldered on the terminal for the battery cable at the starter:


Mounted the fuel filter (I slid the bracket that comes with it off and flipped it around):



Took apart the G6 clutch master/bleeder assy and modified it to take a traditional flared line. Machined both pieces for a press fit then silver soldered them together:






Since the engine was put back in place for the wiring, I also took the opportunity to make the fuel hose:




I wanted to keep the shifter cables as far from heat as possible, so I routed them down into the double firewall section and out by the fuel fill tubes. I will probably remove the insulation on them.



Here are some overall pics:



While the engine is in place, I need to finish the wiring harness, coolant connections, A/C hoses and fabricate a cold air intake (the GM truck one doesn't quite fit and I don't want to cut it up and have more couplers, I will get some exhaust tubing and weld something up). Then it will come back out to finish all the detail work in the engine bay.




Trinten MSG #511, 11-11-2012 05:03 PM
      Man that is just inspiring to see how efficiently you tackle things (and the cool stuff you fabricate up to make it 'cleaner'), and keep everything else that needs to be done in mind. For what I've done myself or helped others do, I can't count the number of times we'd finish and go "damn, forgot to do c while taking care of y."



KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #512, 11-11-2012 05:19 PM
      that's a great looking engine.

dskebo (dskebo@msn.com) MSG #513, 11-11-2012 09:01 PM
      Wow! Lookin great guru.

fieroguru MSG #514, 11-12-2012 07:55 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Man that is just inspiring to see how efficiently you tackle things (and the cool stuff you fabricate up to make it 'cleaner'), and keep everything else that needs to be done in mind. For what I've done myself or helped others do, I can't count the number of times we'd finish and go "damn, forgot to do c while taking care of y."


Thanks!
Most of what I do just takes pre-planning (the actual work isn't to difficult) and given that I have been working on this swap off and on for 2 years... I have had a lot of time to think about how I wanted everything. The more swaps you do, the more you focus on the finishing touches... a nice clean install can become overly cluttered in the final installation stage if you haven't planned for how everything that must be connected (harness, hoses, lines, etc) up will flow with everything else. If I don't like the way something I have done looks, then I will take the time to redo it.

The only part of the swap I am still not feeling is the water pump and its fill point, but for the sake of actually getting this car running, I am leaving it as is for now. Eventually I will make a one off mechanical water pump to replace the one that is there now.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-12-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #515, 11-12-2012 07:58 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:

that's a great looking engine.



 
quote
Originally posted by dskebo:

Wow! Lookin great guru.


Thanks!


Trinten MSG #516, 11-12-2012 08:53 AM
      Is there a reason for going with a mechanical one over an electric one? To me, I've thought that electric pumps had quite a few more "pros" to them, but perspective is everything.

fieroguru MSG #517, 11-12-2012 01:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:

Is there a reason for going with a mechanical one over an electric one? To me, I've thought that electric pumps had quite a few more "pros" to them, but perspective is everything.


It is a personal preference on multiple fronts. The ones I have used, worked on, or driven in the past were all loud enough to hear in the passenger compartment (far worse than the stock fuel pumps), I prefer the whisper quiet of a mechanical pump so I can hear the engine sounds... not pump whine. Since most electrical pumps won't fit on the engine, so they add hoses, wires and other clutter and generally look like an afterthought to me. With the LS engine the remote water pump also requires a remote thermostat housings which adds even more hoses and clutter. Lastly, I think a creative/custom mechanical water pump setup adds to the overall swap package, especially when one doesn't normally fit.


Trinten MSG #518, 11-12-2012 01:38 PM
      Thank you very much for the explanation.

fieroguru MSG #519, 11-12-2012 05:40 PM
      In another thread someone was saying that the special transmission fluid/gear oil for the F40 was hard to get. The GM part # is 88862472 and I purchased 3 quarts from www.CrateEngineDepot.com for $72.70 shipped. Definitely not the cheapest transmission fluid, but I figured I would start with the GM fluid first.

It shipped the same day and arrived today (from IL). The capacity was revised from 3 liters to 2.2 - 2.3 liters.


Jims88 MSG #520, 11-12-2012 08:43 PM
      The 98 L31 Vortec 350 fuel pump you mentioned to F355spider; I can't figure out what vehicle make to search?

fieroguru MSG #521, 11-12-2012 10:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Jims88:

The 98 L31 Vortec 350 fuel pump you mentioned to F355spider; I can't figure out what vehicle make to search?


1996-2000 Chevy Silverado with 5.7L.


Jims88 MSG #522, 11-13-2012 08:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


1996-2000 Chevy Silverado with 5.7L.


Thank You fieroguru

This one?
http://www.rockauto.com/cat...pk=293342&cc=1358715

http://www.summitracing.com...c-75703/media/images

[This message has been edited by Jims88 (edited 11-13-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #523, 11-13-2012 09:55 PM
      This one: Airtex E3270 for $67.99
http://www.autozone.com/aut...tifier=21819_7305_0_


fieroguru MSG #524, 11-14-2012 06:19 PM
      Confirmed... O2 sensor plugs work great for the fluid fill cap on the F40. I will probably put an o-ring on it to help ensure a leak free seal.



The 4" exhaust pipe sections for the cold air intake showed up as well:





Not the filter I will be using, but it was handy:


Now I just need to finish welding it up.


Trinten MSG #525, 11-14-2012 06:26 PM
      Wow! "Air restriction? What air restriction?"

Glad to see the filler cap idea worked out!


DaveC MSG #526, 11-16-2012 12:41 AM
      Your fab work always impresses me. It's... how would you say?... Fabulous!

dskebo (dskebo@msn.com) MSG #527, 11-16-2012 01:28 AM
      How are you regulating the fuel pressure Guru. The LS4 regulator is in the pump module but I can't find any on your posts

fieroguru MSG #528, 11-16-2012 06:25 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dskebo:

How are you regulating the fuel pressure Guru. The LS4 regulator is in the pump module but I can't find any on your posts


From the bottom of page 1:

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
One last bit of info... the LS4 came with a return-less fuel system and I plan to keep it return less. The easiest and probably a cheapest way to accomplish this is with a factory fuel filter/regulator built into 1 for the Corvettes. In my best Mad Max Thunder Dome chant "2 lines enter, 1 line leaves, 2 lines enter, 1 line leaves..." I picked mine up for just over $40 shipped:





Eventually, I will post of a detailed parts list with part #'s and costs for every off-the-shelf part I used. I have it in an excel file, but it won't be complete until I have it running.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-16-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #529, 11-16-2012 05:14 PM
      Been working on the AC lines...

I used a cut off wheel to remove the oem crimped hose clamps from the LS4 compressor end as well as the Fiero chassis aluminum hose ends. Then It was a matter of cutting the new A/C barrier hose to the proper length. Here are some pictures of the test fit:




While searching for the ferrules for the ends I came across several types for the OEM bead lock (the ferrule is locked between two beads on the fitting) fittings. Most of them required a larrger hole in the ferrule so you could push the ferrule past the beads and use a c-clip to retain it. I am sure those would work, but I also found some that had the larger hole offset:
http://www.mobileacproducts.com/ferrules.asp


So these just slide into place, fit in-between the beads, then when centered by the hose they are locked into place. Pretty slick setup, so that is what I am going with. You can buy the ferrules in packs of 25 for each size and they come to about $1 per ferrule. So I am buying 25 of the #8 and #10 and will likely sell the left overs in the mall.

Here is a nice how-to on using these ferrules. It covers removing the old hose and assembling the new one with these ferrules:
http://www.mobileacproducts.com/hose_repair.asp

For crimping these, I am planning to just take the assembled hose with new ferrules to NAPA and have them crimp them for me. The other option is to buy a crimping tool... but they are about $150 for the cheapest one and I don't build A/C lines very often. One of the most compact crimpers I have found is the ATCO 3300 Handi-Clamp:


You can buy the whole tool with the dies for $155 from here:
http://tswf.com/koolkarzonline/tools.cfm

Or you can buy just the 2 needed dies (#8 and #10) and use a large bench vice to compress them. The dies are only $20 each from here:
http://www.atcomail.com/forsale/3300parts.htm

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-16-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #530, 11-17-2012 12:48 PM
      The cold air intake is pretty much done. Just need to sand it down and paint it.


I ended up putting a small notch in the air intake to avoid bending the shifter cables:

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-17-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #531, 11-18-2012 06:43 PM
      Didn't work much on the LS4 swap today... but I did make a new panel for the center console area and started to mount the components to it.


For mounting the TCM, I forced some vacuum lines through the mounting holes and cut them off with about 1/8" sticking through both sides. Then I could use typical fiero interior screws to bolt it down and keep it isolated. As I tightened the screw, the vacuum line mushroomed out some.


fieroguru MSG #532, 11-19-2012 04:32 PM
      The "official" GM Transmission fluid plug arrived today and guess what? It looks just like the O2 sensor plug, but in a coated steel vs. stainless steel and it doesn't have an o-ring on it either.... go figure. The stainless O2 sensor plug looks much better, so that is what I am going to use.



The other silicone reducer came in today... looks much better than the electrical tape I have been using to hold it still. Once the swap is running and tuned, I will probably switch to the card style MAF and extend the tube. That will streamline the inlet tract and allow the MAF to be hidden and one of the couplers to go away.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 11-19-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #533, 11-25-2012 02:00 PM
      Finally finished with the inside wiring...


Now when the engine comes out again I can finish the terminations at the last ECM plug (BLUE) and call the harness finished!!! I really hate wiring...


Trinten MSG #534, 11-25-2012 02:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Now when the engine comes out again I can finish the terminations at the last ECM plug (BLUE) and call the harness finished!!! I really hate wiring...


Though you do such an meticulous job with it! Out of the handful of people that have seen pics of your past work that I've spoken too, everyone of them said that your attention to detail, especially with the wiring, is what makes it so clean and gives it a "factory" look. Thanks for the update!



KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #535, 11-26-2012 04:16 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:


Though you do such an meticulous job with it! Out of the handful of people that have seen pics of your past work that I've spoken too, everyone of them said that your attention to detail, especially with the wiring, is what makes it so clean and gives it a "factory" look. Thanks for the update!


I would argue this. The factory tend to throw in the wiring and put an ugly plastic cover over things.

This is far better detail.

To me, things that look factory will not get noticed by most. For example, when this car is at a show, no one will know that the notch on the driver's side frame rail for the trans was moved to fit the F40.

That's just one example. I'm sure there are dozens more on this car.


fieroguru MSG #536, 11-26-2012 06:38 PM
      Thanks guys!

Ordered my Battery today.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dui-5575a

Since this is a non-aero notchie, I can't mount the battery under the headlight like I usually do. This swap also has me more weight conscious than normal and looking for ways to save weight vs. my old SBC/Getrag swap. So both of these items will have me experimenting with a Dyna-Batt battery. The battery has a 7 x 3 x 6.5 foot print and weights only 13.5 lbs... a 20 lb savings from a stock Fiero battery and its small size should allow it to be mounted between the spare tire tub and the radiator and not in the spare tire tub at all. This would provide access for jump starting and require just 4 mounting holes (after I fab up a bracket to hold it).

I might need to keep the blue dingy thing for my headlights because these small batteries don't last nearly as long as a stock sized battery.


Jims88 MSG #537, 11-26-2012 09:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Thanks guys!

Ordered my Battery today.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dui-5575a

Since this is a non-aero notchie, I can't mount the battery under the headlight like I usually do. This swap also has me more weight conscious than normal and looking for ways to save weight vs. my old SBC/Getrag swap. So both of these items will have me experimenting with a Dyna-Batt battery. The battery has a 7 x 3 x 6.5 foot print and weights only 13.5 lbs... a 20 lb savings from a stock Fiero battery and its small size should allow it to be mounted between the spare tire tub and the radiator and not in the spare tire tub at all. This would provide access for jump starting and require just 4 mounting holes (after I fab up a bracket to hold it).

I might need to keep the blue dingy thing for my headlights because these small batteries don't last nearly as long as a stock sized battery.

Thats a cool battery. Never heard of a dry cell automotive starting battery.
I wonder if it gives off fumes when charging like lead acid?


fieroguru MSG #538, 11-28-2012 05:38 PM
      Battery relocation cables are on order.
The A/C line ferrules arrived today so I put the A/C hose together. I did have to enlarge the offset hole in the ferrules to slide them over the factory ridges, but that wasn't much work for the die grinder.




On Thursday I will run to Napa over lunch and have then crimp the ferrules for me.

This weekend I need to finish up the coolant lines for the engine.


Jims88 MSG #539, 11-28-2012 09:40 PM
      Those hoses turned out nice!

It's good to know Napa will crimp hoses.
Our local industrial supplier has a sign on the front door, "If you didn't by our hose we don't crimp ."

Are you going 134a conversion or staying with R-12?


fieroguru MSG #540, 11-29-2012 08:07 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Jims88:

Those hoses turned out nice!

It's good to know Napa will crimp hoses.
Our local industrial supplier has a sign on the front door, "If you didn't by our hose we don't crimp ."

Are you going 134a conversion or staying with R-12?


Thanks!

Our local Napa is rather large and offers more services than others I have been to. I had previously called them and they just wanted to know if I would be supplying the ferrules (which I said yes). The ones they have often needed to have the hole enlarged and it was more of a hassle than anything. The unknown at this time is how large their crimper is and will it fit around the close fitting A/C lines. If theirs doesn't fit, then I will purchase the dies for the #8 and #12 (about $20 each) and crimp them with my vice.

The car will be converted to 134a.


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #541, 11-30-2012 12:18 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Been working on the AC lines...

I used a cut off wheel to remove the oem crimped hose clamps from the LS4 compressor end as well as the Fiero chassis aluminum hose ends. Then It was a matter of cutting the new A/C barrier hose to the proper length. Here are some pictures of the test fit:




While searching for the ferrules for the ends I came across several types for the OEM bead lock (the ferrule is locked between two beads on the fitting) fittings. Most of them required a larrger hole in the ferrule so you could push the ferrule past the beads and use a c-clip to retain it. I am sure those would work, but I also found some that had the larger hole offset:
http://www.mobileacproducts.com/ferrules.asp


So these just slide into place, fit in-between the beads, then when centered by the hose they are locked into place. Pretty slick setup, so that is what I am going with. You can buy the ferrules in packs of 25 for each size and they come to about $1 per ferrule. So I am buying 25 of the #8 and #10 and will likely sell the left overs in the mall.

Here is a nice how-to on using these ferrules. It covers removing the old hose and assembling the new one with these ferrules:
http://www.mobileacproducts.com/hose_repair.asp

For crimping these, I am planning to just take the assembled hose with new ferrules to NAPA and have them crimp them for me. The other option is to buy a crimping tool... but they are about $150 for the cheapest one and I don't build A/C lines very often. One of the most compact crimpers I have found is the ATCO 3300 Handi-Clamp:


You can buy the whole tool with the dies for $155 from here:
http://tswf.com/koolkarzonline/tools.cfm

Or you can buy just the 2 needed dies (#8 and #10) and use a large bench vice to compress them. The dies are only $20 each from here:
http://www.atcomail.com/forsale/3300parts.htm



I like, I need this tool for my next project



fieroguru MSG #542, 11-30-2012 06:35 AM
      Napa crimped my A/C lines with the hand tool shown above. They charged me $5 to crimp all 4 ferrules, so that wasn't bad at all.


fieroguru MSG #543, 12-01-2012 06:14 PM
      Confirmed that the A/C lines fit!

Then I cleaned up the garage in preparation of removing the engine/tranny/cradle for hopefully the last time.

I fabbed up some guides to show where the ends of the coolant tubes need to be so I can build them on the bench vs. under the car:



Then disconnected the harness and removed it from the center console.


Once the engine/tranny/cradle is on the bench again, I will start fabbing up the coolant lines.




fieroguru MSG #544, 12-02-2012 04:49 PM
      Everything is back on the bench and the crossover coolant tube is mocked up and tacked together:



It is supported on the pulley side of the engine from a bracket off the alternator. I am fabbing up the bracket on the transmission side that will come off the catch can bracket.

This is the easy side... the other one is very tight with little room...

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-02-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #545, 12-03-2012 07:23 PM
      Ordered some black pipe butt-weld elbows for the passenger side coolant tube.

The battery relocation cables came in today. 15' of both back and red in 2ga welding wire for $66 shipped.


Bloozberry MSG #546, 12-05-2012 10:56 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Napa crimped my A/C lines with the hand tool shown above. They charged me $5 to crimp all 4 ferrules, so that wasn't bad at all.


I never even knew those ferrules were available, much less crimpable at NAPA or even at home. Learn a new thing everyday.



fieroguru MSG #547, 12-05-2012 06:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:
I never even knew those ferrules were available, much less crimpable at NAPA or even at home. Learn a new thing everyday.


Yeah, I didn't know they were available either until a few months ago. It was a fun search once I came across them to figure out what I wanted/needed and then how to get them crimped. Once this car is running and I have more available funds, I will buy the hand crimper and add it to the collection. Napa only charged me $5 to do all 4 crimps!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-05-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #548, 12-05-2012 06:36 PM
      I think the passenger side coolant tube is figured out.

1" Schedule 40 black pipe is the perfect size for the fiero coolant hoses, so I ordered some butt-weld 90's to start with like this:


Then I just pieced them as well as some sections of pipe together and came up with this:




Just need to weld on the mounting tab (it is just tacked in place).


fieroguru MSG #549, 12-06-2012 06:43 PM
      Battery showed up today!


Here is one of the places I am thinking about mounting it. Easily accessible but out of the way. It is a dry cell battery, so I might be able to bolt it under the sheet metal and over the fascia edge below the passenger head light:


This weekend I will throw some cables together and try to crank over the engine. With it having a gear reduction starter, I don't think spinning the engine will be any issue, but it would be nice to "know" before I bolt the battery down.


fieroguru MSG #550, 12-08-2012 06:42 PM
      Today was a productive day...

Wiring harness is now complete and loomed up!


No picture but I also built a sub harness for the wideband. It runs in its own heat shrink loom from the sensor to the console area where the controller will be mounted. It follows the engine harness path and is wire tied to it to keep it mostly hidden from view. Keeping it separate will allow me to remove it at a later date if I wish to do so.

Also did the finish welding on the coolant tube tab that came off the catch can mount. Then I painted it satin black:


Finish welded the passenger side coolant tube hard line and painted it as well:


Painted the PCV hard line:


I also started welding up the long coolant tube. That should be finished, smoothed and painted on Sunday.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-08-2012).]

Trinten MSG #551, 12-08-2012 08:18 PM
      That's just so nice looking man... it's almost so nice looking that I'd never want to drive it. Just put it on a platform with some mirrors under there to show it off or something. lol

dskebo (dskebo@msn.com) MSG #552, 12-08-2012 08:35 PM
      Very nice

motoracer838 (jmartin@musicunveiled.com) MSG #553, 12-09-2012 09:05 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I think the passenger side coolant tube is figured out.

1" Schedule 40 black pipe is the perfect size for the fiero coolant hoses, so I ordered some butt-weld 90's to start with like this:


).


That's funny, I use the same bends in 1 1/4" when I have to fab handrail at work.

You look like your getting close, looks great.

Joe



fieroguru MSG #554, 12-09-2012 01:53 PM
      Thanks guys! I can't wait to have this thing running... but it will probably be sometime in January as there is still quite a bit to do.

I tested the DYNA-BATT battery today and it did spin the LS4/F40 combo, so I will proceed with mounting the battery. Here is a video of the test spin and a walk around the engine/tranny combo:



I finished the long coolant tube, painted and installed it. Also installed the painted PCV hard line and started reassembling everything I had taken apart. Once I install the last 3 hose nipples (heater hose, steam hose, brake booster hose) I think the work on the engine/transmission/cradle combo will be done (besides assembling the suspension, but I am not doing that until the engine runs in the chassis).




I sanded down the air intake tube for the coating in truck bed liner, but before coating it I needed to tweak the oem hole I am using for it. The intake is very tight with the factory hole and if I don't do something it will scratch when I reassemble it (and it is rather difficult to remove)... so here is how it fits the stock hole (notice it clears the frame rail, but sits on the sheet metal for the hole):


I am going to bend the sheet metal over to re-contour the hole. In the first pic you can see the piece of aluminum I clamped to the frame rail. It was 1/4" thick and very close to elevation of the stock flange at the front of the hole. You can see how much the sheet metal rises as it goes to the rear. With the aluminum there, I can hammer the sheet metal over onto the aluminum to make a new flange.


After some hammering:


Now there is a plenty of clearance around the air intake tube. This should help make removal much easier.



The finishing touch on this mod was to trim the flange back to the stock width.


Also test fitted the stock heater hard line and determined where I would trim the hard line to have a direct shot to the front of the water pump:





fieroguru MSG #555, 12-09-2012 06:36 PM
      I moved to the front of the car and started to do some more work. First order of business was removing the head lights, glad I did as I found this special gift the previous owner left for me... It didn't go to anything anymore, just a bare end on the wire.


Upon further inspection, found he had cut the blue other wire too...


So I had to fix that mess... cut, strip, twist:


Solder:


Double heat shrink:


Then I moved on the the radiator upgrade. Here is the Champion one on the left and the stock V6 radiator on the right:


The overall external dimensions are pretty close:


Starting the work on the rubber mounts. Here the stock lower rubber mount showing that the cut out is too small:


So I trimmed it up a bit. Trimmed one in front, stock one in the rear:


While test fitting the radiator in the modified lower mounts, I found a bolt the protruded enough to make contact with the side cap (the one near the center of the pic):


After a little work with the cutoff disk on the grinder:


Now the radiator sits in the lower base and it is time to start working on the top rubber mounts and top bracket... but ran out of day light (nose of the car is up against the door and the garage doesn't have any lights in the front half by the door...


Trinten MSG #556, 12-09-2012 06:52 PM
      Glad that you were able to figure out a way to get your rubber mounts to work. I had read the info from Archie on how to trim them up so it would fit... but never could. Wound up having to leave the rubber bumpers off entirely in order to bolt it all back into place.

Jims88 MSG #557, 12-09-2012 07:37 PM
      Looking Great!!
Interesting technique to spot your coolant hose locations.

Quote:
Also test fitted the stock heater hard line and determined where I would trim the hard line to have a direct shot to the front of the water pump

I was wondering; were you referring to the suction or discharge side of the water pump,to land the hard line?



FieroMaster88 (fast88fiero@yahoo.com) MSG #558, 12-09-2012 08:22 PM
      Wow, nice work on the swap! You do awesome work.



fieroguru MSG #559, 12-09-2012 08:57 PM
      Thanks guys!

 
quote
Originally posted by Jims88:
I was wondering; were you referring to the suction or discharge side of the water pump,to land the hard line?


Discharge side (pre-thermostat, so it functions as the coolant bypass and so the heater sees hot water as soon as possible).

On the 88, the return from the heater core dumps into the passenger coolant tube before the water pump (suction side). The hardline I cut short is for the heater core supply and needs to come from a portion of the water pump before the thermostat. I am going to drill/tap and install a hose barb in the pump in the next few days.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-10-2012).]

ericjon262 MSG #560, 12-09-2012 10:48 PM
      Looks good! it'll be nice to see the finished product!


Jims88 MSG #561, 12-09-2012 10:53 PM
      Thank You for the clarification!

Jims88 MSG #562, 12-09-2012 10:55 PM
      double post

[This message has been edited by Jims88 (edited 12-09-2012).]

kennn (kbrooksarchitect@cox.net) MSG #563, 12-10-2012 11:45 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Thanks guys!


Discharge side (pre-thermostat, so it functions as the coolant bypass and so the heater sees hot water as soon as possible).

On the 88, the return from the heater core dumps into the passenger coolant tube before the fuel pump (suction side). The hardline I cut short is for the heater core supply and needs to come from a portion of the water pump before the thermostat. I am going to drill/tap and install a hose barb in the pump in the next few days.


Did you mean to say "water pump" instead of "fuel pump?"

Your work has inspired me; I'm employing your urethane bearing method for transmission and motor mounts and your 2.5L damper/pulley to shorten the front end dress.

Ken



fieroguru MSG #564, 12-10-2012 11:53 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by kennn:


Did you mean to say "water pump" instead of "fuel pump?"

Your work has inspired me; I'm employing your urethane bearing method for transmission and motor mounts and your 2.5L damper/pulley to shorten the front end dress.

Ken



Yes, it should be water pump... I will fix the typo.

Glad you have liked some of my solutions and putting them to use!



dskebo (dskebo@msn.com) MSG #565, 12-10-2012 05:21 PM
      Speaking of fuel pump, How are you regulating fuel pressure? The LS4 engine does not have a regulator on the fuel rail . GM used one on the fuel pump module. Did I miss something?

fieroguru MSG #566, 12-10-2012 05:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dskebo:

Speaking of fuel pump, How are you regulating fuel pressure? The LS4 engine does not have a regulator on the fuel rail . GM used one on the fuel pump module. Did I miss something?



From the bottom of page 1:

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
One last bit of info... the LS4 came with a return-less fuel system and I plan to keep it return less. The easiest and probably a cheapest way to accomplish this is with a factory fuel filter/regulator built into 1 for the Corvettes. In my best Mad Max Thunder Dome chant "2 lines enter, 1 line leaves, 2 lines enter, 1 line leaves..." I picked mine up for just over $40 shipped:



[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-10-2012).]

dskebo (dskebo@msn.com) MSG #567, 12-10-2012 08:06 PM
      Yep missed it. Da!

fieroguru MSG #568, 12-15-2012 03:35 PM
      I think the radiator upgrade is now complete. I ended up reshaping the top rubber seats as well (modified one in front, stock one in back):



The only modification to the sheet metal was to open up the hole around the fill neck:




I didn't need to do any modifying to the driver side, probably because I was able to slide the radiator over about 1/8" (with the larger fill cut out) to get everything to clear.

Then I worked on the battery mount. I fabbed up these brackets to hold the battery, but ended up unbending one of the bolted flanges.



The battery is now mounted under the passenger head light, but the only modification to the sheet metal in that area was to drill seven 1/4" holes and remove the protruding flange from the 1" diameter drain hole on the bottom side. In the first picture you can see that the battery easily clears the bottom of the 88 coupe fascia (notice the 2 bolt air ducting bracket on the other side of the battery).


The mounting bracket holds the battery firm in 3 directions and the batter hold down tab secures it in the 4th direction.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-15-2012).]

jaymelk2 (jaymelk2@att.net) MSG #569, 12-15-2012 03:40 PM
      Very nice job Guru....I love the attention to detail



F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #570, 12-15-2012 05:39 PM
      I like that radiator I might have to get one of those also. Very nice work on the swap.

fieroguru MSG #571, 12-15-2012 05:46 PM
      Thanks guys!

I forgot to take a pic of the radiator with it installed:


Used some truck bed liner to coat the outside of my cold air intake. This helps to insulate it, as well as masking any weld imperfections:



Also added the last two hose barbs for the coolant system. The small one is post-thermostat and is for the hose from the steam ports on the heads (it normally dumps to the top of the radiator, but post thermostat is pretty much the same. The larger hose barb is pre-thermostat and is for the supply hose to the heater core. The hose for this will run underneath the main hose coming off the thermostat housing:


I also sent the ECM and TCM off to get the stock 2007 LS4/4T65E-HD calibration loaded on them with the same VIN #. This will let them talk to each other and then I can eventually start the long process of tuning this this for all the changes.

It is almost time to refocus on preping the engine bay for paint and the smooth firewall panel.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-15-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #572, 12-23-2012 06:41 PM
      Been slacking.... but finally spent some time in the garage.

I soldered on the battery cable end at the starter, routed the power cable around the starter and then coiled up the excess. I will run the cables on the final install.




Then I removed the water pump and thermostat housing and painted them aluminum so they would have a more uniform look:




Then I started playing with the smooth firewall panel. I tacked some 3/8" nuts to the backside to space it from the stock firewall, then drilled the 1/4" mounting holes for the bolts and cut the hole for the harness connector:







Now I get to clean the engine bay and sand/prep it for paint!



Jims88 MSG #573, 12-23-2012 10:16 PM
      Nice fit on the fire-wall fab.

I am getting ready to start painting my alum. water pump assembly too, yours looks good!
Since I'm limited to spray bombs, would you happen to have a recommendation?


Fiero_gtp (ws6ls9@yahoo.com) MSG #574, 12-23-2012 10:31 PM
      i love how if you Really did not know what you were looking at you would just think he painted some vavle covers and made it look pretty. amazing job!

fieroguru MSG #575, 12-24-2012 11:59 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Jims88:

Nice fit on the fire-wall fab.

I am getting ready to start painting my alum. water pump assembly too, yours looks good!
Since I'm limited to spray bombs, would you happen to have a recommendation?


Thanks! I made a couple of templates to get everything nice and tight to the edges. The very bottom edges that go against the frame rails need more clearance as the rails pinch in as they move away from the fire wall. Also, with the top sides being quite close, you have to flex the panel slightly to make it clear the flange on the top frame rails.

For most of my rattle can painting, I use Rustoleum professional grade paint. Lowes sells is in the silver cans.


fieroguru MSG #576, 12-24-2012 12:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fiero_gtp:

i love how if you Really did not know what you were looking at you would just think he painted some vavle covers and made it look pretty. amazing job!


Thanks! I normally take a subtle approach to showcasing my fabrication skills.


fieroguru MSG #577, 12-24-2012 12:17 PM
      One of the last loose end to finish up on the engine was relocating the oil level sight tube for the catch can. So I marked the holes, drilled/tapped them and now have the sight level in a visible spot:


The original holes were filled with threaded caps, then the ends ground down flush (they are up against the mounting bracket:


fieroguru MSG #578, 12-26-2012 05:38 PM
      The other radiator hoses came in today. These are the same as the previous one I cut up for the pipe to water pump inlet, so I figured might as well keep using the same part # to make the rest of the hoses.


Just by cutting the hose in the proper place, I was able to use one hose for both the thermostat to pipe and lower coolant tube to pipe hoses on the passenger side:


Then doing the same on the driver side pipe to lower coolant tube:


Also started on smoothing out the tops of the strut towers some as well as the small work I did to the lower frame rail when I relocated the factory bulge to the rear about 1/2":






KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #579, 12-27-2012 09:41 AM
      Looks amazing

fieroguru MSG #580, 12-29-2012 04:17 PM
      The ECM and TCM are back with the stock 2007 LS4/4T65e-hd calibration loaded on them. In a week or two I will have to spend some quality time with HP tuners and do all the baseline calibration changes to this thing will actually start.

There was one place on the chassis that I really didn't like... where the previous owner or some shop cut into the side of the framerail to access the nut for the cradle bolt...


So the first thing I did was to make a new nut assy that will sit inside the frame rail, allow some general movement side/side and front/back but not allow the nut to spin. I used some M12-1.75 nuts, pressed one into a large washer, welded the nuts to the washer and added an arm to it to keep it from spinning:




With the nut taken care of, it was time to close the hole. I figured it would be easier to make a patch panel if I cleaned up the edges of the hole, so out came the cut off disk:


I used the carboard from a cereal box to make a template, transferred the pattern to some 16ga, sheared out the patch panel, and tacked it in place:


Patch fully welded:


Welds ground smooth:


The engine bay is waiting for paint, but it need to get another 5 degrees warmer in the garage first.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 12-29-2012).]

fieroguru MSG #581, 12-30-2012 04:11 PM
      I forgot to post the pictures of the engine to chassis ground wire. Same 2ga wire used for the battery relocation and same soldered on ends. I weled a stainless steel bolt to the underside of the chassis for a solid, rust free grounding point.


There was an unused bolt hole on the head here, so I used it:


The cable snakes down behind the hoses and over the alternator:


The ground cable from the batter will also come back to the engine, so this is just a large engine/chassis ground.

The engine bay is now painted! I painted the firewall and the backside of the smooth panel first, then once those were dry installed the smooth panel and finished painting the whole engine bay. It is a matte black finish, but is glossy in the pics because it is still wet.








ericjon262 MSG #582, 12-31-2012 07:50 PM
      looking good!

Trinten MSG #583, 01-01-2013 01:51 PM
      damn that looks nice


fieroguru MSG #584, 01-01-2013 06:09 PM
      Here is a pic with the engine bay paint dry and with a low gloss finish.


I still have a little bit more touch up work on the topside of the strut towers, but it will be a week or two till it is warm enough to do more painting,

Today I swapped out the bolts in the firewall panel to stainless steel button heads, installed the fuel fill tube with a fresh coat of aluminum paint, installed the shifter cables, installed the expansion tank (with a fresh coat of aluminum paint), installed the brake and clutch lines, heater hose hard line, mounted all the hoses to the fuel tank and got it ready for installation. Here are some pics from today's work:






Maybe on Wednesday night I will get the fuel tank installed and the hoses cut to length and connected to the fuel filter/regulator and install the main coolant tubes (the ones on the car were kinked... but I have a kink-free set in the attic).

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-01-2013).]

Jims88 MSG #585, 01-03-2013 08:39 PM
      Engine bay looks better than new!
Neat fab trick with ss ground bolt.


LEEEZARD (cobalt964ruf@aol.com) MSG #586, 01-04-2013 03:12 AM
      as always very nice work.

kennn (kbrooksarchitect@cox.net) MSG #587, 01-04-2013 11:54 PM
      Hey Guru,

Were you contemplating at one time attempting to increase the operable volume of the fuel tank?

Nice work. I like the shift cable routing idea; is there any concern of them kinking, or did you enlarge the opening somewhat in the firewall (guessing here)?

Ken



fieroguru MSG #588, 01-05-2013 09:46 AM
      Thanks for the compliments guys!

 
quote
Originally posted by kennn:
Were you contemplating at one time attempting to increase the operable volume of the fuel tank?

Nice work. I like the shift cable routing idea; is there any concern of them kinking, or did you enlarge the opening somewhat in the firewall (guessing here)?

Ken


Yes, I raised the vent tube (added a 2nd vent port and capped the stock one) in the gas tank to gain some usable capacity. On my stock 88 I have 10.2+ usable gallons and with this mod I hope to have 11.0+. I have plans to build a completely new fuel tank to maximize fuel capacity, but that is on the back burner until I get this swap up and running. I have the fuel tank tunnel portion of a Fiero chassis in storage so I can build this tank without taking either of the fieros out of service.

I got the idea of changing the cable routing from the Perfect Union. Its shift cables stay behind its smooth firewall and exit right under the driver side hinge box.


With the smooth firewall panel removed:


Since my smooth firewall is only 3/8" off the stock firewall, I had to go lower and through the stock double firewall panel along the fuel fill and exit the stock fuel fill hole. From the shifter, the cables shift to the passenger side of the console and have a nice radius bend as they turn the 90 degree turn and pass down through the hole in the console/fuel tank tunnel and enter the double firewall panel. As they come out the fuel fill tube, they again make a gradual turn. As they are routed, they are bind/kink free.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-05-2013).]

kennn (kbrooksarchitect@cox.net) MSG #589, 01-05-2013 07:49 PM
      Thanks for the clear explanation. And thanks for many well thought out ideas and the willingness to share.

Ken



fieroguru MSG #590, 01-14-2013 07:30 PM
      I broke my camera... it was on, lens extracted and took a tumble off the bench, jamming the lens/zoom mechanism and now it won't start. So I stole the wife's...

It took quite a bit longer to get the tops of the strut towers look good, but they are finally done!

Also reinstalled the decklid hinges (need the engine out to line up the bolt holes in the top plate):


Factory Hole:


Top plate being slid into place:


Hinge installed:


Then it was time to install the fuel tank and filter assy. Since I wasn't using the GM quick disconnects, I put a little bubble at the end to help ensure the hoses stay put:



Then it was time to put the engine back in for what I thought was the final time... but alas the two coolant pipes didn't clear the chassis. The passenger side one is a simple fix (just need to remake the mounting tab to lower it and shift it about 1/2" to the DS (it hits the front cradle bolt bracket by about 1/4", and I am not cutting the bracket). The driver side one just needs a complete rework... I had it in and out about 5 times trimming it to fit, but now I think I will just make a new one. Besides the coolant tube issue, notice how much room there is between the firewall and the manifold (and it has a heat shield).


I will rework both coolant tubes with the cradle in the car so I will know the new ones will fit!

Here are some other general engine in bay pics (excuse the dust on the engine...):






KissMySSFiero (ssfiero@aol.com) MSG #591, 01-14-2013 07:53 PM
      been waiting for updates!!! Looks as good as usual.

Any time frame for the initial startup?

I hope to pick up an LS4 soon. I don't have a truck(accord) so I need to get a hitch and small trailer.

those hinges are are a work of art. I may try to duplicate them. Hope you don't mind.



fieroguru MSG #592, 01-15-2013 09:02 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KissMySSFiero:
Any time frame for the initial startup?


Hard to say at this point. Work is going to be hectic for the next 3 weeks so it will depend on how much time I can free up to make further progress.


RumbleB MSG #593, 01-15-2013 09:44 PM
     
I noticed the chain attached to the holes in the trunk, of this photo. Could you tell me what is going on here?


fieroguru MSG #594, 01-15-2013 10:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RumbleB:


I noticed the chain attached to the holes in the trunk, of this photo. Could you tell me what is going on here?


Cherry picker connects between the 2 pieces of black tape to raise/lower the rear of the car for engine/tranny/cradle removal.


ericjon262 MSG #595, 01-15-2013 10:39 PM
      same way I lifted the body on mine, the guys who use the deck latch are nuts.

RumbleB MSG #596, 01-16-2013 08:20 AM
      Wow! I think, I have a new way to lift Fieros. I have been using the floor jack method and now that I have a Fiero with T-tops, I don't want to put any stress on the rivets. That method of lifting won't rip at the metal, in the trunk? No! I would never lift a Fiero by the deck lid, latch.

[This message has been edited by RumbleB (edited 01-16-2013).]

F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #597, 01-16-2013 09:13 AM
      A lot of nice work. I like the detail and thanks for the nice pics of the fuel filter set up.

CC Rider (ccriderf1@gmail.com) MSG #598, 01-16-2013 10:56 AM
      Do you think the Vett returnless filter can be used on a 3800 swap instead of Darths arrangement?
I read somewhere that these filters are set to 58lb's - is that correct?



RumbleB MSG #599, 01-16-2013 12:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by F355spider:

A lot of nice work. I like the detail and thanks for the nice pics of the fuel filter set up.


I totally agree! There are a lot of things that I am changing around, after viewing this thread. As for the fuel pump, I have been wondering that myself.


fieroguru MSG #600, 01-16-2013 02:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by CC Rider:

Do you think the Vett returnless filter can be used on a 3800 swap instead of Darths arrangement?
I read somewhere that these filters are set to 58lb's - is that correct?



If the 3800's use a vacuum referenced FPR, then they probably can not use the Vette filter/regulator. If they are not vacuum referenced, then I see no reason that it wouldn't work.
Yes, these filter/regulator assemblies are set for 58psi.


fieroguru MSG #601, 01-16-2013 02:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RumbleB:

That method of lifting won't rip at the metal, in the trunk? .



The metal is folded over into the cutouts which makes it stronger and harder to bend. If you lift the whole car with the complete drivetrain it will put a small dent in the edge of the hole, but it is still one of the best methods of lifting a fiero. Using some 3/8" bolts to a chain on the strut towers works as well, but it is easy to scratch the paint on the strut towers with that method.


fieroguru MSG #602, 01-16-2013 02:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by F355spider:

A lot of nice work. I like the detail and thanks for the nice pics of the fuel filter set up.


Thanks and you are welcome!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-16-2013).]

qwikgta (qwikgta@yahoo.com) MSG #603, 01-18-2013 06:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


If the 3800's use a vacuum referenced FPR, then they probably can not use the Vette filter/regulator. If they are not vacuum referenced, then I see no reason that it wouldn't work.
Yes, these filter/regulator assemblies are set for 58psi.


I have this same setup on my LS3 and asked Ryan if I could use it on my 3800 swap. He explained it all to me, bottom line "no".

Rob


fieroguru MSG #604, 01-20-2013 01:34 PM
      Finally got around to reworking the coolant pipes. The driver side one was an easy fix, just shorten the offset section by 1" and cut off the flange and reweld it in a new position.
Original setup:


Modified one:


Here are a couple installed pictures. There is now about 3/16" between the tube and the PS front cradle mount tab:



The DS tube was a pain... I ended up using the cradle tip method to remove/install this tube about 10 times during the fabrication process... but now it fits quite well and is nearly complete (just need to make the last mounting tab.







DPoppelll (danpoppell@att.net) MSG #605, 01-20-2013 07:39 PM
      I think that if you ever made a swap kit like this I would save every last penny to buy it. This really is a fantastic build, technically and visually.

ericjon262 MSG #606, 01-29-2013 09:09 PM
      got any updates for us?

fieroguru MSG #607, 01-29-2013 09:53 PM
      The coolant tubes are done and installed, the harness is installed and fully connected, the fuel system is completely installed and connected (replaced the fill 90 degree hose), the battery relocation cables are connected at the engine and routed along the tank and up to the battery - these still need to be terminated at the battery.

Once the battery is connected, I can power up the ecm and HP tuners and start doing the basic sensor checkout. I will also pull the plugs and crank the engine over to build oil pressure and purge the air from the fuel rail (returnless, so air must pass through the injectors to purge). Then I need to work on the base tune for the security, larger injectors and maf change... then cross my fingers and see if she will make some noise...

My laptop/netbook (HP 2133 running 32G SSHD and windows XP) died yesterday - black screen of death, so with the help of google I tore it down to the motherboard and placed it in the oven at 395 degrees for 8 minutes. Let it cool, reassemble and the laptop is functional again! I know absolutely zero about PC's, but with the help of the internet, the wife is impressed once again at the things I can fix!


ericjon262 MSG #608, 02-02-2013 06:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The coolant tubes are done and installed, the harness is installed and fully connected, the fuel system is completely installed and connected (replaced the fill 90 degree hose), the battery relocation cables are connected at the engine and routed along the tank and up to the battery - these still need to be terminated at the battery.

Once the battery is connected, I can power up the ecm and HP tuners and start doing the basic sensor checkout. I will also pull the plugs and crank the engine over to build oil pressure and purge the air from the fuel rail (returnless, so air must pass through the injectors to purge). Then I need to work on the base tune for the security, larger injectors and maf change... then cross my fingers and see if she will make some noise...

My laptop/netbook (HP 2133 running 32G SSHD and windows XP) died yesterday - black screen of death, so with the help of google I tore it down to the motherboard and placed it in the oven at 395 degrees for 8 minutes. Let it cool, reassemble and the laptop is functional again! I know absolutely zero about PC's, but with the help of the internet, the wife is impressed once again at the things I can fix!


I got a laptop with a fubar'd keyboard, put a piece of paper under the ribbon cable, now it works! google FTW indeed!


fieroguru MSG #609, 02-02-2013 07:23 PM
      Finished hooking up the battery and put power to the car and started checking things out.

Never store a gas tank empty... I put a new fuel pump in the tank a couple years ago when I picked up this car and wanted to see if the old 2.8 would run for part out purposes. After that I drained the tank and stored it indoors ever since. Well the fuel pump was locked up and the fuel sender had zero continuity at any setting. So I spent the majority of today dropping the tank, replacing the fuel pump and then cleaning all the electrical terminals in the tank and the sender.

Sunday I will confirm +12V at the ECM/TCM pins as well as the ground connections and then power up the ECM/TCM and hook up HP Tuners.


fieroguru MSG #610, 02-03-2013 08:23 PM
      Fuel tank is back in and pumping gas. All the battery, ignition and ground feeds to the ECM/TCM checked out, so I hooked up HPtuners and did the initial download of the ecm/tcm calibration and worked up a base tune with the following changes...

VATS 1 and VATS 2: both set to Disable. This "should" turn off VATS
MAF Air Flow Frequency (Low): Compared to 07 Vette Table (same MAF I am using) and copied it, then confirmed the difference was 0. For MAF change
MAF Air Flow Frequency (High): Compared to 07 Vette Table and copied it, then confirmed the difference was 0. For MAF change
Injector Flow Rate vs. Pressure: Compared to 07 Vette Table and copied it, then confirmed the difference was 0. For Injector change
Tach Output- Tach Type. Originally was set for serial, the TBSS was Frequency so I changed it to Frequency. I "hope" this will enable the direct tach output like the TBSS has
ETC Scalar - Change to 4725 for 90mm TB
Effective Area Max - Changed to 8191 for 90mm TB
Effective Area Min - Changed to 0
Effective Area Min Fail - Changed to 5
RPM Limits - Extreme Cutoff - Changed to 6800
RPM Limits - Extreme Resume - Changed to 6720
Cutoff RPM vs. Gear - Changed all values to 6800
Cat Over Temp Protection: Disabled. I don't have a cat and this adds 25% fuel to protect the cat under certain conditions
Displacement On Demand: Disabled - it need to be off for all tuning. I will turn it back on at a later date
DoD RPM Thresholds - Min RPM: Changed to 1600 rpm. I only want it to work in 5th/6th gears between 45 and 80 mph
DoD RPM Thresholds - Max RPM: Changed to 2300 rpm. I only want it to work in 5th/6th gears between 45 and 80 mph
DoD Enable VSS: changed to 45 mph
DoD Disable vs PRNDL: D4 was 0, so I changed everything to 0 so DoD shouldn't care what the range switch says, even though the TCM is hard wired to show D4
DoD Disable vs Gear: 3rd gear and 4th gear were set to 0, so I changed 3rd gear to 1 and 5th and 6th gears to 0. No idea if this will work, but I changed it anyway
Engine Torque Management Spark: Disabled. I don't want any torque management
Engine Torque Management ETC: Disabled. Same reason
Transmission Diff Score: Disabled
Transmission Abuse Mode Torque Reductions vs. RPM: Set every value to 0 - no torque reductions
Transmission Abuse Mode Torque Reductions Duration vs. transmission temp: Set every value to 0 - no torque reductions
Starter Diag: Disabled. Using Fiero starter control
Clutch Interlock: Disabled. Using Fiero clutch pedal wiring
Number of Fans: Set to 1
Ignition off run time: set to 60 seconds. Reduced from 360 seconds due to my smaller battery
Speedometer - Tire Size: Set to 24.6
Speedometer - Gear Ratio: set to 3.55. F40 final drive ratio
Speedometer - VSS PP Rev: set to 78. # of teeth for F40 VSS
Speedometer - VSS PP Rev - Trans: set to 78. # of teeth for F40 VSS
Speedometer - VSS PP Mile: set to 63949
Speedometer - Revs per Dist (1 mile): Set to 819.86
Speedometer - Revs per Dist (1 mile) - trans: Set to 819.86
Speed Limiter (fuel cut off): Changed to 200mph
Speed Limiter 2 (fuel cut off): Changed to 200mph

The below Diagnostic Trouble Codes were turned off for missing components from the installation (Evap, Fuel Pressue, Post Cat O2 sensor, Cat, etc)
P0036 - HO2S Heater Control Circuit Bank 1 Sensor 2 - Turned off
P0054 - HO2S Heater Resistance Bank 1 Sensor 2 - Turned off
P0137 - HO2S Circuit Low Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 2 - Turned off
P0138 - HO2S Circuit High Voltage Bank 1 Sensor 2 - Turned off
P0140 - HO2S Circuit Insufficient Activity Bank 1 Sensor 2 - Turned off
P0141 - HO2S Heater Performance Bank 1 Sensor 2 - Turned off
P0420 - Catalyst System Low Efficiency - Turned off
P0422 - Evaporative Emission System Small Leak Detected - Turned off
P0443 - Evap Purge Solenoid Valve 1 Control CKT - Turned off
P0446 - Evap Vent Solenoid Valve Control System - Turned off
P0449 - Evaporative Emission Vent Solenoid Control Circuit - Turned off
P0451 - Evaporative Emission Control System Pressure Sensor Range - Turned off
P0452 - Fuel Tank Pessure Sensor Circuit Low Voltage - Turned off
P0453 - Fuel Tank Pessure Sensor Circuit High Voltage - Turned off
P0454 - Evaporative Emission Control System Pressure Sensor Intermittent - Turned off
P0455 - Evaporative Emission System Leak Detected - Turned off
P0461 - Fuel Level Sensor Performance - Turned off
P0462 - Fuel Level Sensor Circuit Low Voltage - Turned off
P0463 - Fuel Level Sensor Circuit Low Voltage - Turned off
P0464 - Fuel Level Sensor Circuit Intermittent - Turned off
P0481 - Cooling Fan Relay 2 Control - Turned off
P0496 - Evaporative Emission System High Purge Flow - Turned off
P2544 - Torque Management Request Input Signal A - Turned off
P2A01 - O2 Sensor Circuit Range/Performance Bank 1 Sensor 2 - Turned off

Once all these changed were saved, I did a Write Entire to the ECM/TCM.

After I pulled the plugs and cranked the engine to build up oil pressure, I had several DTC's.
0315 - needs a case learn - need to have the engine running to perform it, but some say you can do it with a manual transmission. This will wait till it is running
0340 - Camshaft Sensor - need to run through the sensor/harness diagnostics on this one. Wiring, sensor or ECM issue
0557 - Brake Booster Sensor. I didn't have the connected plugged in
1516 - TAC Control - need to run through the sensor/harness diagnostics on this one. Wiring, Throttle Body or ECM issue
2101 - TAC Control - need to run through the sensor/harness diagnostics on this one. Same as above.

When I tried to start the engine after revision 2 of the tune, the fuel pump primed for about 1/2 second (should be 2 seconrs) then shuts off. The engine cranks without starting... I need to listen better to see if the fuel pump is working while it is cranking and check for spark at the coils. I suspect it is due to the cam sensor issue and the engine not knowing which cylinder is ready for fuel/ignition.

I am please that the mini battery has been able to spin this engine quite a bit to both prime the oil (about 1 minute of cranking) and to crank the engine (for another minute or two).

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-05-2013).]

mwhite (mike.white@rogers.com) MSG #611, 02-03-2013 11:21 PM
      Your getting close... Don't expect to have a spark until the cam sensor is working, unless you can put the ECM into wasted spark. I don't think wasted spark is an option for your ECM.
Can't wait till you post some audio of that engine running


Kemp3 (jckemp3@sonic.net) MSG #612, 02-04-2013 10:20 PM
      I bet there is a limp mode that puts fuel into batch fire and spark into wasted and a locked timming table

fieroguru MSG #613, 02-05-2013 03:17 PM
      With the case learn code (ECM hasn't verified crankshaft position) and the Cam Sensor code, there is no good information for the ecm to determine spark or fuel timing to the mechanical timing of the cylinders/valve movements, so I am pretty sure the ECM has those fucntions disabled until the cam sensor issue is addressed. Maybe if the case learn was complete and it has confirmed location of the crankshaft timing, then maybe is one of the other sensors faults out it could do batch fire and waste spark.

I revised the list of program changes and added all the DTC I have turned off for the missing parts.

Maybe in the next day or two I will have time to figure out the Cam Sensor issue.


ennored MSG #614, 02-05-2013 05:38 PM
      315 CASE learn code is for misfire. It's used to learn the fine variations the crank sensor sees that are normal. It's done during coast with the injectors off. Shouldn't keep it from running. I'm a bit out of my element though, do you know what GM software you have?

fieroguru MSG #615, 02-05-2013 06:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ennored:

315 CASE learn code is for misfire. It's used to learn the fine variations the crank sensor sees that are normal. It's done during coast with the injectors off. Shouldn't keep it from running. I'm a bit out of my element though, do you know what GM software you have?


Agreed. I know it is a cam sensor issue at the moment.

E67 ECM with 12609256 OS, T42 TCM with 12590424 OS


Kemp3 (jckemp3@sonic.net) MSG #616, 02-05-2013 09:19 PM
      I dont know if this is your problem , the cam sensor is wired opposite of the crank sensor. I bet you have connector views but I remember freaking out when I was toning all grounds and 12v references . Then I checked the alldata connector views and they aren't the same, so all was right in the long run.

[This message has been edited by Kemp3 (edited 02-05-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #617, 02-07-2013 07:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Kemp3:

I dont know if this is your problem , the cam sensor is wired opposite of the crank sensor. I bet you have connector views but I remember freaking out when I was toning all grounds and 12v references . Then I checked the alldata connector views and they aren't the same, so all was right in the long run.



I do have connector views for every sensor and found a few typos in the service manual (mostly in the circuit #'s). When I tore apart the harness, I labeled every ecm termination and coiled up the sensor wires/connectors. I also made an excel cheat sheet based on the service manual ECM/TCM terminations and the connector end views. Then when I terminated the wires at the ECM/TCM I checked the label and the cheat sheet for consistency and double checked the pin locations once they were inserted into the ECM/TCM connectors. I don't expect any actual wiring issues for the main engine sensors, but I could run across issues with the things I changed (MAF, TB) or the ones I added another connector (like the DBW pedal harness).

I checked the wiring for the camshaft sensor and everything checked out. A new camshaft sensor is on order.

Also, ordered some aluminum spacers for the terminals on the battery to make it easier to put some jumper cables on them.

For the E67 guys, this thread is a good intro to tuning with HP Tuners and covers the basics (with screen shots) and even tuning AFM/DoD. It is focused on the E38 ECM which is the sister of the E67 ECM and both are quite similar in function. I copied the main parts into a word document...
http://forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=20813



Jims88 MSG #618, 02-09-2013 10:33 PM
     
 
quote
[B]Originally posted by fieroguru

For the E67 guys, this thread is a good intro to tuning with HP Tuners and covers the basics (with screen shots) and even tuning AFM/DoD. It is focused on the E38 ECM which is the sister of the E67 ECM and both are quite similar in function. I copied the main parts into a word document...
http://forum.grrrr8.net/showthread.php?t=20813


Intresting link fieroguru,
looks like I will be doing some more reading.


fieroguru MSG #619, 02-10-2013 02:48 PM
      IT LIVES! (yes, I am shouting)

The throttle body has 2 TPS sensors and I had the signal wires switched between them. I still need to confirm if they are different between the LS4/LS2 throttle body, if I made a bad assumption during the conversion, or if I just wired them wrong. These two wires switched, kept the ECM from priming the fuel pump for the full 2 seconds and would stop after 1/2 second. The TB also would not move with a push of the pedal, so I hooked up the scanner looking at the TPS readings and moved the throttle body blade by hand and the sensor values went the wrong way. On a whim I took the connector end at the throttle body, switched the two wires and the throttle body worked. Then with a twist of the key the fuel pump primed the full 2 seconds and the engine started.

Need to put coolant in the engine and fluid in the tranny so I can run it longer and continue to work on a few issues.


ericjon262 MSG #620, 02-10-2013 04:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

IT LIVES! (yes, I am shouting)

The throttle body has 2 TPS sensors and I had the signal wires switched between them. I still need to confirm if they are different between the LS4/LS2 throttle body, if I made a bad assumption during the conversion, or if I just wired them wrong. These two wires switched, kept the ECM from priming the fuel pump for the full 2 seconds and would stop after 1/2 second. The TB also would not move with a push of the pedal, so I hooked up the scanner looking at the TPS readings and moved the throttle body blade by hand and the sensor values went the wrong way. On a whim I took the connector end at the throttle body, switched the two wires and the throttle body worked. Then with a twist of the key the fuel pump primed the full 2 seconds and the engine started.

Need to put coolant in the engine and fluid in the tranny so I can run it longer and continue to work on a few issues.


Congrats!! got a video yet???



fieroguru MSG #621, 02-10-2013 06:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
Congrats!! got a video yet???


Now I do!

Here is a video of the throttle body in action:


Here is the first start with a nasty lope... I set off the garage smoke alarms...


Here is how it idles after a couple of throttle blips... I rattled the glasses in the kitchen on this one. I need to work on the ETC settings to close the throttle faster.


Here are a couple of pictures of the engine bay:



ZombiePenguin (zombiepenguin69@gmail.com) MSG #622, 02-10-2013 07:11 PM
      Looks good in the pics, can't see any links or the video itself, are they on YouTube?

Been following closely this entire build.


fieroguru MSG #623, 02-10-2013 07:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ZombiePenguin:

Looks good in the pics, can't see any links or the video itself, are they on YouTube?

Been following closely this entire build.


I can see them, but they are on You Tube. Just search for fieroguru and LS4.


Jims88 MSG #624, 02-10-2013 07:45 PM
      Music to the ears!
Well Done fieroguru!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Trinten MSG #625, 02-10-2013 08:04 PM
      Very Awesome!

ericjon262 MSG #626, 02-10-2013 09:24 PM
      I love your coil setup, it's so much cleaner then anything else I've seen on a LSX motor!



FieroMaster88 (fast88fiero@yahoo.com) MSG #627, 02-10-2013 11:48 PM
      Congrats! That's one clean swap.

X-Body MSG #628, 02-11-2013 12:33 AM
      After a couple years of work, that has to feel real good! Simply awesome build.

F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #629, 02-11-2013 06:45 PM
      I'm dreaming of that day. I don’t think I could ever have my swap that clean.

rcp builders MSG #630, 02-13-2013 10:44 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

I think the passenger side coolant tube is figured out.

1" Schedule 40 black pipe is the perfect size for the fiero coolant hoses, so I ordered some butt-weld 90's to start with like this:




Just need to weld on the mounting tab (it is just tacked in place).


Great work!! I'm looking to redo my tube on my SBC from drivers side to stat. I love the hard line idea.
Is that what the rest of the tube that stretches from drivers to stat is, schedule 40?? Thank you, Ray


fieroguru MSG #631, 02-13-2013 01:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by rcp builders:


Great work!! I'm looking to redo my tube on my SBC from drivers side to stat. I love the hard line idea.
Is that what the rest of the tube that stretches from drivers to stat is, schedule 40?? Thank you, Ray


Thanks!

The one you picutred was 16ga, but when I redid it I went with schedule 40 for the tighter bends:


Here is the one from the last SBC I did (I bent this one).



[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-13-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #632, 02-13-2013 08:21 PM
      Put the coolant in today and was able to idle the engine for about 30 minutes. The lifter chatter calmed down, but I think either the alternator or water pump is squeaking...

Got a new code the other day P1915 - transmission range not in P/N at engine start. Since I wired the TCM to see D4 all the time, this isn't a surprise. However, this DCT isn't listed under the engine codes and is a TCM code. The issue is currently HP Tuners doesn't have any TCM DCT's listed, so I can't turn this one off.

I wired the TCM to think it was in D all the time because I didn't want to hassle with a bunch of switches to make it change from P/N to D, but since I can't turn off P1915, I took another look:


There are 4 Range signals, A, B, C, & P and they are either open or wired to ground to determine the range selection.
Signal P is always open for every gear and how it is currently wired, so no change needed.
Signal A & B are at the same state for N and D, so no change is needed.
Signal C needs to be Open for N and Grounded for D. It is currently grounded and I need a way to break the circuit by pressing the clutch pedal. The Fiero cruise switch on the clutch pedal has a 2 terminal end that has continuity between the terminals when the clutch pedal is released and it breaks the signal when the clutch pedal is pressed. By wiring one terminal to ground and running a wire from the 2nd one back to the TCM for Range Signal C, the TCM will see N when the clutch is pressed/started and D at all other times.

This switch will also allow me to play with "no lift shift"

The oil bypass plate (that I drilled for the fiero oil sender) has been leaking since startup. I remove the plate and it was the gasket leaking. New felpro gasket is on its way... thinking about taking Vacation from work next week to put a major dent in getting this thing drivable (far from done, just drivable so I can start tuning).

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-13-2013).]

diabloroadster MSG #633, 02-13-2013 10:06 PM
      If that wiring works on the trans, it will greatly help when it comes to tuning. You should be able to really get your tables tuned perfect.
Great work! Looking foward to hearing that LS4 ripping up the highway~


fieroguru MSG #634, 02-15-2013 06:07 PM
      Here is my last video before the car is drivable... I just had to rev it to 6250 to hear how it sounds.



The gasket for the oil cooler cover (right off the oil pan) is wrong... Apparently the LS4 oil cooler cover uses a different gasket than all other LS(x) based engines... even though all the aftermarket suppliers list this wrong fel-pro gasket:


dratts (dratts2@gmail.com) MSG #635, 02-15-2013 06:44 PM
      Sounds really good. Mine is just running a cat off the turbo. Sounds more like a muscle car. Since I have mine in a Lambo rebody your sound would be more appropriate for my car. I call it my "Italian muscle car". Good job!

Jims88 MSG #636, 02-15-2013 07:50 PM
      That sounds FANTASTIC!
Driving that?
Fiero version of The Saturn V.


diabloroadster MSG #637, 02-15-2013 08:33 PM
      I found out the hard way on that oil bypass also, I purchased one of those oil supply adapters for the oil bypass like this:


Didnt fit!
Glad you recieved the ECU/TCM.....


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #638, 02-15-2013 08:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Here is my last video before the car is drivable... I just had to rev it to 6250 to hear how it sounds.




Cool, sounds like the belt and ALT have not committed to a long term relationship yet

Just food for thought, I have an "extra" throttle pedal and plan on installing it in the engine bay. Of course I would modify it to look more like a "joy stick" so I can "blip" the throttle from the engine bay. I plan to splice all the wires ( Y them all in) except the Main input to the PCM. That one wire would be on a toggle switch so I can switch between the front pedal and rear pedal. They wont/cant both be wired in at the same time.



fieroguru MSG #639, 02-16-2013 07:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:

Just food for thought, I have an "extra" throttle pedal and plan on installing it in the engine bay. Of course I would modify it to look more like a "joy stick" so I can "blip" the throttle from the engine bay. I plan to splice all the wires ( Y them all in) except the Main input to the PCM. That one wire would be on a toggle switch so I can switch between the front pedal and rear pedal. They wont/cant both be wired in at the same time.


An engine bay throttle lever would be cool

Picked up some gasket material and cut a new gasket for the oil cooler bypass plate. Then added a wire to the harness and connected it to the Fuel Tank Pressure input. This is 0-5V and isn't being used for the Evap system, so I will use it for the input of the wideband. Lastly mounted the C4 Vette seat in the car, so now I can sit in the thing. On Sunday I will wire up the clutch switch and the wideband.


Yarmouth Fiero (im_gman@hotmail.com) MSG #640, 02-17-2013 08:48 AM
      Amazing project. Pure inspiration for the rest of us to follow with our own builds and engine swaps. Chalk up one for the V8 guys.

fieroguru MSG #641, 02-17-2013 06:37 PM
      Spent most of the day sitting in the driver seat installing the clutch switch and wiring up the wideband...

Drivers seat mounted (still need to trim the mounting brackets some in front):


When I ran the rear portion of the wideband harness, I added a connector close to the sensor and extended the wires so I could get the controller out of the engine bay. Since there is no throttle cable, I figured the space in front of the shifter was a good place for the wide band controller and its wires. You can also see the DBW pedal harness running along the vacuum tube:


Here is a temp mount for the wideband gauge (haven't decided exactly where I will put this, but I like it here for tuning). Once this was mounted, I went ahead and calibrated the wideband in open air, then reinstalled it:


Then I ran the wires to the clutch pedal. If you look closely I used some 5/8" hose and a wire tie to hold the switch in place. One wire terminated at the ground screw from the front harness, the other one traveled along the vacuum tube and was connected to the TCM (after yet another connector was added).


I decided to make a laptop stand for the car (the corner pads support the rubber feet on the laptop):


Notice the stand is a little deeper than needed, mainly so the top can be fully open (it drops down in the rear when open). You can also see I need to add a notch for the USB and the power cord.


Notch complete:


I am taking vacation on W, TH and F this week so I will have a long 5 day weekend to make more progress.


Bloozberry MSG #642, 02-17-2013 07:39 PM
      Making good progress Fieroguru. I find it funny that I know a guy that hated his Corvette seats so much that he installed Fiero seats in his Corvette because he found them more comfortable. What were the reasons you wanted different seats? Just curious...

[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 02-17-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #643, 02-17-2013 08:15 PM
      I was into C4 Vettes long before I got into Fieros, and I loved the C4 seats. So when I did the RamJet swap in 2005 I put these same C4 seats into that car and when I retired that car, I kept the seats for this one. The only issue with the seats is you "sit in them" not on them, so you need a narrow hips.


fieroguru MSG #644, 02-18-2013 07:20 PM
      Rest of the laptop stand is tacked together for a test fit:



Also got the rear panels put back on the car:



fieroguru MSG #645, 02-20-2013 05:56 PM
      I started the day working on customer parts. Once those were done, I finished welding up the laptop stand, then starter on the coil overs:







fieroguru MSG #646, 02-21-2013 04:03 PM
      Spent the day cleaning/scuffing/painting...



Still need to paint all the satin black parts, and I am still waiting on the 275 lb/in rear springs to arrive.


diabloroadster MSG #647, 02-21-2013 08:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Put the coolant in today and was able to idle the engine for about 30 minutes. The lifter chatter calmed down, but I think either the alternator or water pump is squeaking...

Got a new code the other day P1915 - transmission range not in P/N at engine start. Since I wired the TCM to see D4 all the time, this isn't a surprise. However, this DCT isn't listed under the engine codes and is a TCM code. The issue is currently HP Tuners doesn't have any TCM DCT's listed, so I can't turn this one off.

I wired the TCM to think it was in D all the time because I didn't want to hassle with a bunch of switches to make it change from P/N to D, but since I can't turn off P1915, I took another look:


There are 4 Range signals, A, B, C, & P and they are either open or wired to ground to determine the range selection.
Signal P is always open for every gear and how it is currently wired, so no change needed.
Signal A & B are at the same state for N and D, so no change is needed.
Signal C needs to be Open for N and Grounded for D. It is currently grounded and I need a way to break the circuit by pressing the clutch pedal. The Fiero cruise switch on the clutch pedal has a 2 terminal end that has continuity between the terminals when the clutch pedal is released and it breaks the signal when the clutch pedal is pressed. By wiring one terminal to ground and running a wire from the 2nd one back to the TCM for Range Signal C, the TCM will see N when the clutch is pressed/started and D at all other times.

This switch will also allow me to play with "no lift shift"

The oil bypass plate (that I drilled for the fiero oil sender) has been leaking since startup. I remove the plate and it was the gasket leaking. New felpro gasket is on its way... thinking about taking Vacation from work next week to put a major dent in getting this thing drivable (far from done, just drivable so I can start tuning).



You always have some of the best diagrams- Do you have a diagram of the 4t65e shift solenoids? What I need mainly is the color of wires in the transmission harness for Solenoids A & B on the 12v NEG side, plus the TCC Solenoid 12v NEG side and the Line Pressure PWM 12V positive.......

Going into overdrive (no-pun) on my LS4 swap.......

[This message has been edited by diabloroadster (edited 02-21-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #648, 02-21-2013 09:52 PM
      In the morning I will scan the information you are looking for.

Trinten MSG #649, 02-21-2013 11:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by diabloroadster:

You always have some of the best diagrams-



And he's always incredibly helpful (and as you can see from his reply), prompt. On top of his work and his own swap, I don't know how he finds the time. His patience is outstanding, I have dozens of PMs (some of considerable length, covering multiple topics) saved from over the past few years.

(sorry for going off topic, just seemed like a good place to pay FieroGuru some much deserved respect).



fieroguru MSG #650, 02-22-2013 08:55 AM
      Here are the transmission wiring details (sorry for the orientation, photobucket isn't letting me save the pictures once I turn them the right way):

I don't recommend just using just the wire color, but use it in conjunction with the pin location at the connector for confirmation you have the right wire.








diabloroadster MSG #651, 02-22-2013 10:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Trinten:


And he's always incredibly helpful (and as you can see from his reply), prompt. On top of his work and his own swap, I don't know how he finds the time. His patience is outstanding, I have dozens of PMs (some of considerable length, covering multiple topics) saved from over the past few years.

(sorry for going off topic, just seemed like a good place to pay FieroGuru some much deserved respect).


I completely agree, Fieroguru has helped me so much..... Just cant say enough about him.


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #652, 02-23-2013 03:07 AM
      Have you looked into the TB and noticed that the throtle blade does not rest at a 90*? It looks like it may be at a 80-85* angle and the air passege thru the TB has several bumps or restrictions? This makes me wonder if a porting job will help flow?

ericjon262 MSG #653, 02-23-2013 03:46 AM
      lol, there's only two people on this forum I can picture putting a strut in a lathe to cut the spring perch off! (that's not a bad thing)

fieroguru MSG #654, 02-23-2013 08:13 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:

Have you looked into the TB and noticed that the throtle blade does not rest at a 90*? It looks like it may be at a 80-85* angle and the air passege thru the TB has several bumps or restrictions? This makes me wonder if a porting job will help flow?


On a 90mm throttle body, the obstruction of the cross shaft restricts 15% of the air flow through the throttle body, so opening the throttle body any further results in zero increase in air flow. Most DBW throttle bodies therefore stop opening once they have reached peak air flow, which is less than 90 degrees.

Porting on the DBW throttle bodies is best left to the professionals. There is no IAC, just blade control for idle control. If you port too much or significantly alter the air flow in the idle blade positions then you will have idle and tip in drivability issues that can't be tuned out (not much adjustment in the throttle control available within the tuning package)


fieroguru MSG #655, 02-23-2013 08:25 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

lol, there's only two people on this forum I can picture putting a strut in a lathe to cut the spring perch off! (that's not a bad thing)


I got lucky that the base of the KYB strut was recessed and had a good lip to use for chucking up the strut...


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #656, 02-23-2013 12:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


On a 90mm throttle body, the obstruction of the cross shaft restricts 15% of the air flow through the throttle body, so opening the throttle body any further results in zero increase in air flow. Most DBW throttle bodies therefore stop opening once they have reached peak air flow, which is less than 90 degrees.

Porting on the DBW throttle bodies is best left to the professionals. There is no IAC, just blade control for idle control. If you port too much or significantly alter the air flow in the idle blade positions then you will have idle and tip in drivability issues that can't be tuned out (not much adjustment in the throttle control available within the tuning package)


So thinning the shaft would be a Port Job?



fieroguru MSG #657, 02-23-2013 05:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:
So thinning the shaft would be a Port Job?


Yes, you could thin the throttle shaft without risk of doing much wrong. Porting the throttle body around the blade should be left to the pros who can do it without screwing up the idle control.


fieroguru MSG #658, 02-23-2013 05:22 PM
      Here is the fully welded laptop stand (the braces are 5/16" brake line):


While waiting for the springs I was setting everything up on the table for the rear suspension:


Since the springs are now on backorder and won't be here for a couple weeks, I went ahead and started putting things together using the short/stiff springs that came with the eBay coilover kit... they will work till the right ones show up. The passenger side is mostly assembled except for the brakes. Still waiting on the braided stainless lines to finish this side up.


The Driver side I couldn't make much progress as I am waiting for the Corsica CV boot to arrive. Not sure what happened to it, but my guess is it was pitched in the trash during the move... I did install the driver side strut so I could get a good picture of the finished engine bay (excuse the dirty decklid):



Tops of the struts (relocated inboard 1"):


Clearance of the top of the strut with the flipped bushing plate to the decklid:


Clearance between top of engine and bottom of decklid (no decklid notching needed on either side):


Here is a neat little mod... I shortened the hood support by 3" at the base, used the top bracket for the base, then fabbed up a new upper bracket for use in the rear:


Decklid closed:


Base mounted to the trunk wall:



I had a friend of a friend who rebuilds wrecks for a living come over to give me an estimate on having the car painted (panel off, I will take everything to him and assemble the car once done). Color is Voo Doo Blue from the FJ Cruiser... hopefully the price is within range, or I will have to paint it myself and I don't really have the patience for body work.

The Sara booked our hotel for the 30th, we are not staying at the host hotel due to needing a 2 bedroom suite so the girls can be put to bed at 8PM and Sara and I can stay up later. So we will be staying at the Residence Inn that is less than 1 mile away. I will plan to keeping the car at the host hotel and we can use the family car to run around in.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-23-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #659, 02-24-2013 02:54 PM
      Did a little more today...

So I can drive this car without having to purchase the rest of the wheels and 4 new tires, I modified the 4 brake calipers to allow use of my 13" brake kit under the 16x7 wheels I currently have. The square boss on top needs to be milled down 1/8" so it will clear the inside of the wheel:



Then I removed the sliders and cleaned/lubed them up and reassembled.

Caliper adapter bracket installed:


Rotor, caliper and pads installed:


Tucked behind the 16x7 wheel... very, very tight!


Here is a picture of Rodney's zero lash sway bar links:


All the rest of the missing parts should be here next week, so if work cooperates maybe next weekend the fiero will leave the garage under its own power for the first time in over 2 years....


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #660, 02-24-2013 10:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Did a little more today...






NOOOO, you cant mill those off. That is where the Gov installed the GPS location devices

I was just looking thru my ratings and noticed I have not yet given you a + for the cool stuff and advice you have posted. Fixed it.



F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #661, 02-25-2013 07:37 PM
      Would you be able to have an AC hose made for me? I went by Napa in town and I got a store that is full of kids. They know scawt.

fieroguru MSG #662, 02-25-2013 08:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by F355spider:

Would you be able to have an AC hose made for me? I went by Napa in town and I got a store that is full of kids. They know scawt.


That wouldn't be practical at this point. I don't have any of the fiero chassis ends, or spares of the LS4 compressor end. Even with those, I had to mock up the hose to ensure it cleared everything, had the right amount of slack and that the ends were properly phased to each other so they bolt down smoothly. I didn't make a jog for mine, so I would have to remove mine to produce another set... just too much of a hassle at this point.

You should be able to find a local shop that specialized in A/C conversions/repairs or engine swaps and have them make you a hose. If you can't find someone local, then you might try FieroKing since he has done a couple of these swaps or DarthFiero as he has done one as well and preparing to do another one.


fieroguru MSG #663, 02-25-2013 08:02 PM
      The driver side tripod boot showed up today, so I finished assembling the axle and have the DS rear suspension assembled/torqued and camber set... just need the braided stainless lines and the car could be sitting on its wheels for once.


F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #664, 02-25-2013 10:35 PM
      Well I had to try.

diabloroadster MSG #665, 02-25-2013 11:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by F355spider:

Well I had to try.


Im needing some a/c hoses made also, I know a guy here in Austin that has the dies/tools/or whatever vodoo thing that crimps the hoses together. But I have to hunt him down.....


katatak MSG #666, 02-26-2013 07:55 PM
      Looking good Guru - the engine bay is very clean - can't wait to hear about the first drive. Someone needs to get a pic of your face as you roll back into the driveway!

[This message has been edited by katatak (edited 02-26-2013).]

motoracer838 (jmartin@musicunveiled.com) MSG #667, 02-26-2013 11:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by F355spider:

Would you be able to have an AC hose made for me? I went by Napa in town and I got a store that is full of kids. They know scawt.


What, no "Napa know how"???

Joe


F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #668, 02-27-2013 12:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by diabloroadster:


Im needing some a/c hoses made also, I know a guy here in Austin that has the dies/tools/or whatever vodoo thing that crimps the hoses together. But I have to hunt him down.....


Sounds good, If I find anything here I will let you know also. I also sent a PM to FieroKing.


F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #669, 02-27-2013 12:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by motoracer838:


What, no "Napa know how"???

Joe


Not the one close to my house. I don't think they even know how to spell Napa.


fieroguru MSG #670, 03-02-2013 08:36 PM
      The front is now lowered (front spring cut 1"), the bumpstops trimmed 1 1/4", Koni shocks installed, Rodney's zero lash rod ends installed, my 13" brake kit installed along with braided stainless hoses (I will be revisiting the front to clean it up once the car is running/tuned and while the body panels are off being painted).








fieroguru MSG #671, 03-02-2013 08:39 PM
      I had to rework the upper spring perch for the new springs (wouldn't fit inside the 3 1/2" tube, so I have to make the sleeve internal):



Here I compressed the strut to ensure the inner sleeve would clear the coil over sleeve and it does:


Here are some rear suspension installation pics:




My plan is to bleed the brakes and do the alignment on Sunday.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-02-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #672, 03-03-2013 07:44 PM
      Got the brakes bled (but I need to do it again as there still is some air in them) and the alignment done then took the LS4/F40 Fiero out for a drive down a couple of streets within the subdivision!

Then I had it parked in the driveway doing the 2 hr idle test (I let the engine idle for 2 hrs constant to verify coolant system, fan action, etc)... well there is a reason I do this test, it is so any issue will happen while it is parked in the drive. One of the radiator hoses decided to come off and dump antifreeze on the driveway... so that ended my fun for the day.






The squealing from a bad bearing is really getting annoying. Since the coolant system is mostly empty (water pump inlet hose is the one that came off), I went ahead and ordered a new A/C Delco water pump with a cast iron impeller (vs. spot welded sheet metal) and it should be here Tuesday.

During my drive I noticed that the Tach and Speedo are inoperable (temp and oil pressure work). Both work in the scan tool, so its and issue between the ECM and gauges. Both of these I wired up at the pin locations used in the TBSS/CTSV E67 applications hoping the signal was there, just not used in the LS4 calibration. I still need to test adding a 12V signal booster to the tach, but I might need to run a Dakota Digital speedo converter for the factory gauge (and keep the VSS going directly to the ECM for it).

It has been a while since I drove a stick, and the F40 gear spacing will take some getting used to.

Good news is the clutch is easy to modulate and chatter free!

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 03-03-2013).]

ericjon262 MSG #673, 03-03-2013 07:53 PM
      almost as awesome as a T-rex in a F14.



Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #674, 03-03-2013 08:26 PM
      My LS4 pump went bad, and it had low miles on it. From now on I am just going to change out the pump before the final instal.

Kemp3 (jckemp3@sonic.net) MSG #675, 03-03-2013 09:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

During my drive I noticed that the Tach and Speedo are inoperable (temp and oil pressure work). Both work in the scan tool, so its and issue between the ECM and gauges. Both of these I wired up at the pin locations used in the TBSS/CTSV E67 applications hoping the signal was there, just not used in the LS4 calibration. I still need to test adding a 12V signal booster to the tach, but I might need to run a Dakota Digital speedo converter for the factory gauge (and keep the VSS going directly to the ECM for it).

Good news is the clutch is easy to modulate and chatter free!



I not certain but I think the ecm is sending a 5v pulse and the Fiero needs a 12v pulse.


this may work

congrats on the clutch , always nice to build something no one has done before and it work !



fieroguru MSG #676, 03-04-2013 08:16 AM
      The tach now works!

I had 2 things wrong. First within the calibration: Engine/Tach Output/Tach Type: you have 3 choices. Serial (which is what the LS4 uses), Frequency (which is what the TBSS uses) and Crank (which is what the CTSV uses). I had set it to frequency, but when I added the booster circuit the tach still didn't move. So I switched it to Crank and with the booster circuit the tach sprang to life (I still need to calibrate it for V8 vs V6). Here is the booster circuit that I found used on the LS1's and appear to work on the E67 as well:


I don't know if the Speedo is fixed yet, but I found an issue in the calibration setting for it as well. Under Speedo/Vehicle Speed Output, Output Source: you have 3 settings again. Disabled (which is what the LS4 used, and where I still had it), RepTOS and Serial. I doubt having the VSS output signal disabled was correct, but still don't know if RepTOS or Serial will allow it to work with the normal speedo buffer circuit. I have it set to RepTOS now.

While I was going to do a reflash anyway, I went ahead and turned off Dynamic Airflow (speed density) and DFCO so I can run MAF only and start working on the MAF tune. Once I get the MAF dialed in, then I can turn it off and work on tuning Dynamic Airflow using the equation coefficients.


fieroguru MSG #677, 03-05-2013 06:37 AM
      Last night I removed the coolant tube and added 4 tach welds at the ends to build up the area and prevent the hose/clamp from sliding off the end. Also removed the water pump. Hoping the new one arrives in the next day or two. I would like to be able to do more testing and drive the car more this weekend once it warms up.

kennn (kbrooksarchitect@cox.net) MSG #678, 03-05-2013 12:23 PM
      Hey fieroguru,

A few posts back you commented on how pleased you were with your clutch and how it was performing. You mentioned that it is a Spec 4+ (Ford Ranger 4.0). Curious, I went to the the Spec site and could not find a 4+. Did they do a special for you? Perhaps their site is not up to date. Still curious.

Ken



fieroguru MSG #679, 03-05-2013 02:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by kennn:

Hey fieroguru,

A few posts back you commented on how pleased you were with your clutch and how it was performing. You mentioned that it is a Spec 4+ (Ford Ranger 4.0). Curious, I went to the the Spec site and could not find a 4+. Did they do a special for you? Perhaps their site is not up to date. Still curious.

Ken



First thing to keep in mind is that the pressure plate bolt pattern on this clutch is not the same as the fiero. Once I found the clutch, I designed the flywheel around it to get the proper diameter/depth and pressure plate pattern. The clutch is an off the shelf item from Spec, but it isn't normally listed. This flywheel/clutch combo is within 1 lb of the stock fiero V6 flywheel/clutch combo. The part # is shown below:

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The clutch arrived today! The list price was $639, but I was able to get it for $575 shipped through LMPerformance.com. This is the 2nd most expensive part for this swap ($749 for the Camshaft kit was #1) excluding the original purchase price the engine...





The clutch disk measures at 9 13/16" at the friction material (listed as a 10" clutch) and is one of the largest diameter clutches you can get for this application w/o mixing/matching disks and pressure plates or getting into some trick self adjusting pressure plates.

It weighs in at 16.52 lbs on the wife's 30 lb postal scales, so the combined flywheel/clutch/pressure plate will be 27.7lbs... which is about 15 lbs lighter (and the flywheel about 1" smaller diameter) than my old SBC flywheel/clutch/pressure plate setup or about 35% lighter... that should help free up some more whp!

The other bit of good news is I might have my 4T65E-HD sold for $650 and that should offset the hit to the wallet from the clutch.





fieroguru MSG #680, 03-05-2013 06:44 PM
      I removed the long coolant pipe this evening to weld the barbs on it to ensure no more hoses come loose.


While I had both coolant tubes out, I went ahead and removed the alternator to have it rebuilt locally for piece of mind. Removal of the alternator requires removing the short coolant pipe, loosening the long coolant pipe and rocking the cradle back. I knew space was tight and rocking the cradle back probably would be needed, so I designed everything in the swap to make that a simple process. remove the 4 bolts from the TB to Intake, remove the oil fill neck from the rear valve cover, remove the 2 rear cradle bolts. Everything else has plenty of slack to accommodate the rear of the cradle dropping about 12".


diabloroadster MSG #681, 03-05-2013 09:38 PM
      Great work as always!

Im really interested to hear how those 10/275 (i think thats what they are) springs ride.
I got some unknown lbs springs with my coil over kit on there now. They are "ok" with the sbc, but with the LS4 going in
soon I want to change them when I do the swap.....

This going to be the year of the LS4 swap! You, Kemp, and what sounds like 100 more people are swapping in LS4's this year....


Bloozberry MSG #682, 03-06-2013 09:25 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
Good news is the clutch is easy to modulate and chatter free!


That is great news. I'm anxiously waiting to see how well you like it once you've broken it in.



fieroguru MSG #683, 03-06-2013 07:39 PM
      The new water pump showed up this evening and it was $45 to have the bearings replaced in the alternator and everything else inspected/replaced if necessary. So now everything is back together and I will pick up some more antifreeze on Thursday. I should be able to continue driving the car Friday night and through the weekend.

diabloroadster MSG #684, 03-07-2013 10:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The new water pump showed up this evening and it was $45 to have the bearings replaced in the alternator and everything else inspected/replaced if necessary. So now everything is back together and I will pick up some more antifreeze on Thursday. I should be able to continue driving the car Friday night and through the weekend.


If you need another alternator let me know, I still have the one off my LS4 that Im not using....


fieroguru MSG #685, 03-09-2013 08:58 PM
      Today was a productive day!

The accessory drive squeal has been quite annoying. Alternator has new bearings, new water pump, all 3 idler pulleys are new as is the belt. The accessory drive has fewer idlers, better balancer wrap and a shorter belt... yet is squeals. I applied some belt dressing and the ribbed side of the belt and everything got quiet for a while. For some reason the new belt is slipping on the balancer. So tonight I picked up a new (different brand) belt to try on Sunday.

With the help of the belt dressing, the car was mostly quiet while it idled for 2hrs to verify coolant system and checked for leaks. Passed with flying colors. I used the time the car was idling to install the rest of the body panels. Once the panels were on and the idle test complete, I was able to wash it for the first time in who knows how long.

The E67 has no adjustment to the electric fan parameters. The fan kicks on at about 215 on the scanner and shuts off at 205. During the swap, purposely installed the coolant temp sensor by cylinder #8 (vs. the stock location at Cyl 1) as it is the hottest part of the engine and the ECM needs to see that temp to pull timing or make other adjustments to protect the engine under extreme conditions. It only takes about 1-2 minutes for the fan running to drop the temp to the point of shutting off the fan with the new Champion radiator. The 195 degree thermostat has a couple of 3/32" holes, so at interstate speed the engine should run in the 180-185 range and the fan will stay off.

The belt dressing did calm the squeal below 2000 rpm, so I took the car out for a couple of drives while logging for tuning the MAF. The first trip was about 5 miles, the second one was about 15 miles. I was taking it quite easy and never gave it more than 20% throttle...

The Tach reads about 10% low which is interesting as it is still calibrated as a V6. Still more work to get it closer, but its within range and down the list right now.

The dash speedometer now works and is within 10-20% of real road speed (reads low), but the speed in the ecm is only showing about 25% of actual speed. All parameters were changed for the F40 VSS (78 tooth) the 3.55 FD, but I think the issue is with the FD ratio. RWD applications have the VSS before the FD and the F40 has it physically on the FD. I might try entering the FD as 1:1 and see what happens. I need the ECM to show the right speed for DoD.

On Sunday I will probably do some more driving/tuning/debugging... Might even take a couple more videos.


F355spider (nixon@itexas.net) MSG #686, 03-10-2013 09:06 AM
      This is a great build thread. I have been away for work but I am back home and this thread is were I headed to first.
Sometimes we don’t say it enough but I just want to say thanks for the help you have given me on my build.


fieroguru MSG #687, 03-10-2013 08:34 PM
      One of the major accomplishment today was fixing the belt squeal. Installed the new belt and the squealing stopped immediately. It looks like the other belt (also new to this swap) looks like the grooves were too wide and didn't grab the pulley as much as this one does. The squeal free belt is on the right:


I also reworked the Reverse lockout tang so it took more effort to engage reverse. My main reason for this was to make it easier to find 1st or 2nd. 3/4 self centers, 5/6 has a hard stop on the side, so I just needed a firmer lockout.

Switched the idle (below 1000 rpm) to open loop and started tweaking the Electronic Throttle settings to speed up the decel of the engine. Lots of trial and error with countless reflashes, but made some progress. I did take the car out for a more spirited drive today, but the video camera's memory card reached capacity a couple of minutes into the drive.

Part of the issue with the VSS is that I made the initial changes for the F40 with version 2.22, but then switched to the 2.23 Beta version and the VSS cells are different ( the beta has more cells to edit). After quite a bit