Northstar rebuild: Will style
Topic started by: Will, Date: 12-29-2003 09:00 PM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000121.html


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #1, 12-29-2003 09:00 PM
      I think my N* just ate a head gasket. It blows coolant out the rear bank pipe. True duals really are good for something.

Anyway, time for some engine work. Since I have to take the head off... I want to thread-sert the head bolt holes to avoid problems. Since I'm doing one side, I might as well do the other, and springs & retainers while I'm at it.

If I have the heads all the way off and the engine all the way out, I might as well do something about the oil smoke on coast down problem.

option 1: rehone and new rings. Prolly work. Boring.

option 2: mild performance build with stock replacement components. Wcapman's done one with eagle rods and I don't remember what pistons, so I can do what he's done. But who wants to do what's been done before?

option 3: exercise creativity...

I just happened to notice that DSM rods have the same pin diameter (0.866") as the N*, and the same center-center length (151 mm or 5.944"). They have a 45mm rod journal instead of a 54mm journal, however. Extra length DSM rods are available. If I offset ground the crank, I could destroke the engine to 75mm (from 84) and use 155.5mm rods. Not that it needs it, but I like short strokes. I'm kinky that way.

I also noticed that the N* rod journals are 54mm (2.126"). They could be turned down or offset ground to 2.100 in order to use 6.000" large journal Chevy rods, narrowed. Pistons would have to be custom...

How far can a N* be bored? I don't remember seeing that in the manual. I recall something about early LS1's being limited to a clean up hone but nothing else. Is the N* the same way?
If the N* can tolerate a 0.020 overbore, I could use 60 over 3.4 pistons with a relocated pin. 5mm up for stock Caddy compression height, or a little more for a 6" Chevy rod.

Jstricker: what TSB's will I need to properly overhaul a '95 engine?

Thoughts?



GSXRBOBBY (robertmanker@yahoo.com) MSG #2, 12-29-2003 09:33 PM
      Will, Since you have helped me out in the past and I am sure I will be needing your help next month when I do the sway I will port and polish the head for free if you would like!



Howard_Sacks (@hotmail.com) MSG #3, 12-29-2003 11:53 PM
      Blowing head gaskets suck.

You could do option four, which would be Arrow (www.arrowprecision.co.uk) will make you any rod you want so you dont have to modify DSM crap. And you can get Ti.

Then call up Mahle and tell them you want MMC pistons like they make for Ferarri. Theyll laugh at you for a bit, but eventually you will get a quote.

Seriously, if its just a head gasket, I would replace it, possibly rering the motor, and then find another block to start doing the crazy stuff to, if thats the path you want to go.

Good luck.

caddyrocket (bryan_es@yahoo.com) MSG #4, 12-30-2003 12:02 AM
      Sorry to hear that. I know Cadillac Hot Rod Fabricators sells the parts for a 1000hp bottom end build up and I also noticed a set of Eagle H-Beam rods on eBay for the N*. If I recall, Ross qouted me aronud 600 dollars for a set of forged northstar pistons although I have no experience with Ross. If nothing else, there is what I have off the top of my head for N* upgrades. I'm 1/2 thinking of keeping the 98 engine I have and getting brutal with it in another Fiero this summer. We'll see tho. Good Luck!

aaron88 MSG #5, 12-30-2003 05:49 AM
      I donít think boring is a good idea. The block is aluminum which means that the cylinder walls are hardened by anodizing. Anodized surfaces are much harder than steel, which is why the Northstar doesnít appear to wear on the cylinder walls (the rings wear instead). An anodized surface is typically 0.01 mm thick (thatís .0004 inches). Thereís really not a whole lot of room to play with there. Iím not saying that, that is the thickness that GM anodized to on the Northstar, but itís really hard to anodize deeper than that. Harder means more expensive and more expensive means that GM likely didnít do it. Regardless of how deep they went, were still talking one thousandth of an inch deep, tops.

Ask someone that has bored out an aluminum block before! See what the results were after a few thousand miles. Iíll bet the wrecked the motor, not that Iíd know. All I'm saying is check out the cost of anodizing those cylinder walls after you bore them out, before you decide to do it.

Aaron

.

jonmulzer (mulzer1979@aol.com) MSG #6, 12-30-2003 06:12 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by aaron88:

I donít think boring is a good idea. The block is aluminum which means that the cylinder walls are hardened by anodizing. Anodized surfaces are much harder than steel, which is why the Northstar doesnít appear to wear on the cylinder walls (the rings wear instead). An anodized surface is typically 0.01 mm thick (thatís .0004 inches). Thereís really not a whole lot of room to play with there. Iím not saying that, that is the thickness that GM anodized to on the Northstar, but itís really hard to anodize deeper than that. Harder means more expensive and more expensive means that GM likely didnít do it. Regardless of how deep they went, were still talking one thousandth of an inch deep, tops.

Ask someone that has bored out an aluminum block before! See what the results were after a few thousand miles. Iíll bet the wrecked the motor, not that Iíd know. All I'm saying is check out the cost of anodizing those cylinder walls after you bore them out, before you decide to do it.

Aaron

.

Aluminum blocks have steel cylinder liners. Even an anodized coating on the cylinder walls would not hold up to the wear of the piston rings.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong though....



LS1swap (aswanson60098@sbcglobal.net) MSG #7, 12-30-2003 07:19 AM
      yes they usually have steel sleeves. I don't know about the N*, but as you mentioned Will the 98 LS1 can only take a .005 hone wear as the 99+ can take .010

aaron88 MSG #8, 12-30-2003 07:40 AM
      Well; if Iím wrong then Iím wrong, what can I say. I know metallurgy, but I donít know cars.

Make no mistake thou, an anodized surface is much harder than steel. If itís not in use on the cylinder walls then it must be because the process affects the thickness of the material penetrated or because the coating isnít thick enough.

Aaron

.

[This message has been edited by aaron88 (edited 12-30-2003).]

Fiero STS (onesupermech@netscape.net) MSG #9, 12-30-2003 08:47 AM
      Cylinders in the N* are steel. All of the sleeveless aluminum bores I,ve seen have been chrome plated or very high silicate aluminum ether of which cannot be bored. Will, What about an Aruora crankshaft is it the same stroke and smaller bore or a shorter stroke and same bore? Also did you ever swap ecms? or are you still running the stock ecm with the test cell chip?

vortecfiero (vortecfiero@hotmail.com) MSG #10, 12-30-2003 09:46 AM
      1) Figure out why the head gasket went and repair it (them)
2) Do the cam and heads.... remember the N* was tuned for a very heavy car
so giveing up a bit of low end torque will gain some midrange and top end
3) unless you are adding over 50 % more hp rods are just an unecessar outlay
of cash
4) Establish a goal for your project or build up. some how this thread went fom
a discussion on mild build ups to cylinder sleaves...
5) An overbore won't add as much hp as getting more air through the engine
with intake, cam heads, exhaust and chip tuneing to take max advantage of
the new setup
5) German engines usually make 100 more hp than the N* with care and attention
to the areas in 4) and the N* is a perfect candidate
6) Supercharging or a turbo setup for 6 lbs of boost will yield far more
fun/$ and still maintain the mild personality of engine untill boost of course
7) The same cash out lay for a fart can muffler and tips probably equals a cam
and some head work



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #11, 12-30-2003 10:36 AM
      GM uses centrifugally cast grey iron cylinder liners, which are cast in place when the block is poured. Some other companies like Honda, Toyota, BMW, and Mercedes are messing with aluminum cylinders, but I don't know much about them. I've just heard of high silicon aluminum from European manufacturers and fibre reinforced aluminum from Japanese manufacturers.

Resleeving is definitely out of the question. That's a $2500 operation. I'll build such an engine eventually... but not right now.

An Aurora crank is the same as a N* crank.

This is going to be a high RPM N/A engine, no N2O, no boost, just compression. It doesn't need anything super exotic as long as it can take 8K RPM or so. I'm also looking for cheap. that's why I was looking at OTS (off the shelf) Chevy rods. Can't get much cheaper than that. Right now I'm just building a short block. Heads and cams work will come later.

CHRFab makes some nice stuff, but they're expen$ive. Per the prices on their website, rods and pistons would come to $2000, which may be necessary if you're building a 1,000 HP enigne. However, for my purposes, $500-600 for rods and $500-600 for pistons seems more reasonable. Summit has full floating pin 6.000" Chevy rods from Lunati for $400. If pistons can be had reasonably, then paying an extra $100 for proper N* rods would be fine.

I'm not looking for an overbore to add more HP... I'd just like to use a convenient piston size. Too bad the N* bore isn't 94.5mm, then I could bore it 0.016" and use high pin 305 pistons...

I really don't know who to get in touch with for custom pistons or rods, however.



aaron88 MSG #12, 12-30-2003 10:57 AM
      Given you budget and power requirements, you could get new rings, gaskets and a cam grind along with some heavier valve springs (dare I say cams and springs from aforementioned Cadillac fab). Itíll give you about 80 more ponies and a 7800 redline.

Itís less work?

Aaron

.

86 FIERO GT (vansboy911@aol.com) MSG #13, 12-30-2003 11:16 AM
      Will, sorry to hear about the head gasket, if you need any factory parts let me know.

If you want some spare rods from a 93 or 94, I have six spares from a bad motor I have laying around.

Would it be that difficult to go in and clean up a pair of heads without paying someone. I have done some polishing in some aluminum 350 heads, but would it really be that effective for me to go grind and polish alittle in a set of heads? CHRFAB is expensive because he is the only one that is selling N* parts. He needs some competition, hint hint Will.



bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #14, 12-30-2003 04:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

CHRFab makes some nice stuff, but they're expen$ive. Per the prices on their website, rods and pistons would come to $2000, which may be necessary if you're building a 1,000 HP enigne. However, for my purposes, $500-600 for rods and $500-600 for pistons seems more reasonable. Summit has full floating pin 6.000" Chevy rods from Lunati for $400. If pistons can be had reasonably, then paying an extra $100 for proper N* rods would be fine.

I really don't know who to get in touch with for custom pistons or rods, however.

http://www.bbandtracing.com/EAGLE.html CADILLAC NORTHSTAR (3/8 bolt) 5.943" $499
http://www.rosspistons.com/custom/eightcylinder.php3 The site is down for maintenance, but I believe they were $613 for a set.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #15, 12-30-2003 04:49 PM
      I'd found the BB&T racing page before. I hope the Ross website comes back up soon.

If I can put together the reciprocating parts for $1000-$1100, that should work pretty well.



bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #16, 12-30-2003 05:22 PM
      That's the same package I'll have in my second engine. If you decide to build a 2000+, you can use those rods and pistons. You'd have to use both though. The wrist pin is a little smaller on the 2000+ engines.

jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #17, 12-30-2003 05:39 PM
      Like STS said, the sleeves are steel, cast in place in the aluminum block, and they are a very HARD steel. When we honed mine, we had to get pretty aggressive with it to get a decent pattern. My engine had about 135K on it IIRC and measured "0" taper in the cylinders but the pattern at the top was getting pretty weak so we just freshened it up a little bit.

One of the first engines I can recall to actually use an aluminum bore was one of the silicate aluminum variety in the old Vegas. They were not known for their longevity.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Fiero STS:

Cylinders in the N* are steel. All of the sleeveless aluminum bores I,ve seen have been chrome plated or very high silicate aluminum ether of which cannot be bored. Will, What about an Aruora crankshaft is it the same stroke and smaller bore or a shorter stroke and same bore? Also did you ever swap ecms? or are you still running the stock ecm with the test cell chip?



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #18, 12-30-2003 05:50 PM
      There has been a guy on EBay that's been trying to sell a set of Eagle H beam rods for a couple of months now. The last auction he had for them ended with no bids, again. You might email him about them but they didn't seem like a screaming deal to me. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2449717768&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1

Arias makes custom pistons to your specs. All it takes is $$$. I've heard that they will NOT make pistons matching CHRFabs specs, though, as Alan has a lot of time in the design of them and they give him some respect on exclusivity. I haven't checked that out personally, but I've heard it from a couple of places.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

GM uses centrifugally cast grey iron cylinder liners, which are cast in place when the block is poured. Some other companies like Honda, Toyota, BMW, and Mercedes are messing with aluminum cylinders, but I don't know much about them. I've just heard of high silicon aluminum from European manufacturers and fibre reinforced aluminum from Japanese manufacturers.

Resleeving is definitely out of the question. That's a $2500 operation. I'll build such an engine eventually... but not right now.

An Aurora crank is the same as a N* crank.

This is going to be a high RPM N/A engine, no N2O, no boost, just compression. It doesn't need anything super exotic as long as it can take 8K RPM or so. I'm also looking for cheap. that's why I was looking at OTS (off the shelf) Chevy rods. Can't get much cheaper than that. Right now I'm just building a short block. Heads and cams work will come later.

CHRFab makes some nice stuff, but they're expen$ive. Per the prices on their website, rods and pistons would come to $2000, which may be necessary if you're building a 1,000 HP enigne. However, for my purposes, $500-600 for rods and $500-600 for pistons seems more reasonable. Summit has full floating pin 6.000" Chevy rods from Lunati for $400. If pistons can be had reasonably, then paying an extra $100 for proper N* rods would be fine.

I'm not looking for an overbore to add more HP... I'd just like to use a convenient piston size. Too bad the N* bore isn't 94.5mm, then I could bore it 0.016" and use high pin 305 pistons...

I really don't know who to get in touch with for custom pistons or rods, however.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #19, 12-30-2003 07:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:

Like STS said, the sleeves are steel, cast in place in the aluminum block, and they are a very HARD steel. When we honed mine, we had to get pretty aggressive with it to get a decent pattern. My engine had about 135K on it IIRC and measured "0" taper in the cylinders but the pattern at the top was getting pretty weak so we just freshened it up a little bit.

The Ross pistons are exactly the same diameter as stock, right? What did your bore clearance end up being? Gapless rings? What other machining did you have done to the block?

How did/will you handle break-in? I've been thinking about following the break-in procedures outlined here: http://mototuneusa.com/thanx.htm

The sleeves are actually steel, not cast iron? Shop manual calls out cast grey iron... But we all know that FSM's are not necessarily 100% reliable for some things...



bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #20, 12-30-2003 07:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:

There has been a guy on EBay that's been trying to sell a set of Eagle H beam rods for a couple of months now. The last auction he had for them ended with no bids, again. You might email him about them but they didn't seem like a screaming deal to me. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=244971 7768&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1

Arias makes custom pistons to your specs. All it takes is $$$. I've heard that they will NOT make pistons matching CHRFabs specs, though, as Alan has a lot of time in the design of them and they give him some respect on exclusivity. I haven't checked that out personally, but I've heard it from a couple of places.

John Stricker

I E-mailed the guy about the Eagle rods about a month ago. He told me he'd sell them to me for $450 shipped. I don't think he's in a real hurry to get rid of them. He had horrible grammar too. I don't think English was his first language.


Edit: That didn't come out the way I intended. He was simply very hard to understand.

[This message has been edited by bushroot (edited 12-30-2003).]

bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #21, 12-30-2003 07:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

The Ross pistons are exactly the same diameter as stock, right? What did your bore clearance end up being? Gapless rings? What other machining did you have done to the block?


You can get the Ross pistons in stock or oversize. They'll do oversize at no extra cost. If you want a dish or dome, it's a little more. Call them, they're really reasonable people.


jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #22, 12-30-2003 08:12 PM
      Will,

I'd have to get my notes to give you what the bore clearance ended up being. IIRC, they would be about 1.5 thousandths loose for a normal piston, but mine have had their skirts coated with a moly-disulfide coating from Swain Tech in NY.

I'm still waiting (less and less patiently) for Total Seal to make me a set of gapless rings. They make some that are in the catalog, but didn't recommend them for my application, but they did offer to make me a custom set that would work. That was last August.

Break-in hasn't been an issue since the engine is still in pieces. I plan to break them in either a) the way I normally do, which is run it like I'm going to use it being careful not to run at a single rpm for any length of time for the first couple thousanc miles or b) howver Total Seal recommends I break in their rings, if that method is substantially different than what I nomrally use. I have everything I need except the rings. The heads are together with the CHRFab cams and springs. I did some mile clean-up and polish on them is all. When the rings get here, I'm ready to assemble.

John Stricker

Edited for the sleeve material. I saw that in the shop manual as well. All I can tell you is that if that's regular cast iron like a normal block, that's the hardest cast iron *I'VE* ever seen. A normal honing procedure hardly made a mark on it and in fact, acted almost like it was polishing it.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

The Ross pistons are exactly the same diameter as stock, right? What did your bore clearance end up being? Gapless rings? What other machining did you have done to the block?

How did/will you handle break-in? I've been thinking about following the break-in procedures outlined here: http://mototuneusa.com/thanx.htm

The sleeves are actually steel, not cast iron? Shop manual calls out cast grey iron... But we all know that FSM's are not necessarily 100% reliable for some things...


[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 12-30-2003).]

jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #23, 12-30-2003 08:18 PM
      I never emailed him. The last I saw he was starting them at more than that and his buy it now was $479. If somebody really has the need for the Eagle rods, they're not a bad deal. Maybe after I toss one through the block I'll wish I had them.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by bushroot:

I E-mailed the guy about the Eagle rods about a month ago. He told me he'd sell them to me for $450 shipped. I don't think he's in a real hurry to get rid of them. He had horrible grammar too. I don't think English was his first language.


Edit: That didn't come out the way I intended. He was simply very hard to understand.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #24, 12-30-2003 09:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:

Will,

I'd have to get my notes to give you what the bore clearance ended up being. IIRC, they would be about 1.5 thousandths loose for a normal piston, but mine have had their skirts coated with a moly-disulfide coating from Swain Tech in NY.

I'm still waiting (less and less patiently) for Total Seal to make me a set of gapless rings. They make some that are in the catalog, but didn't recommend them for my application, but they did offer to make me a custom set that would work. That was last August.


What was wrong with the catalog rings for your/our application? Not durable for high RPM?

How much did the coating cost?


jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #25, 12-30-2003 11:30 PM
      The rings they have listed are not sutitable for boosted applications, even mild boost.

Here's a link to the Swain Pricelist. They coat darn near anything. http://www.swaintech.com/price.html

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


What was wrong with the catalog rings for your/our application? Not durable for high RPM?

How much did the coating cost?



I'm Back (ebsb52@aol.com) MSG #26, 12-31-2003 02:42 AM
      Will for president!!!!

Sounds great - can't wait to see the outcome. So you do have true duals. Do you think they help balance/HP/or???? Any cats? I really want to go true duals; what size pipe did you go?

Thx, Ed

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #27, 12-31-2003 11:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:

The rings they have listed are not sutitable for boosted applications, even mild boost.

Here's a link to the Swain Pricelist. They coat darn near anything. http://www.swaintech.com/price.html

John Stricker

How much were you quoted for your custom rings?
I'm getting ideas...
If I read the Swain price list correctly, I'd be down $18 a piece if I had my skirts coated with the high end PC-9 stuff (where do they describe the different coatings, anyway?), and $42 each if I have the skirts coated with PC-9 and the tops coated with GC, which is actually more cost effective than skirt or dome coatings by themselves.

Rods: $450
Pistons: $600??
Rings: ??
Coatings: $350
Block machining: $300+ (Wcapman spent about $300, but didn't have the head bolt holes thread-serted)

Looking like it'll be close to $2000 by the time everything's put together, but that will be one built shortblock.

The fortunate aspect of this is that I don't have to do this quickly, as I'm still 5 months out from being 100% after knee surgery.



lateFormula MSG #28, 12-31-2003 11:59 PM
      Aaron88,

You need to go back and study you aluminum coatings more. Anodizing is only a protective coating, it is not a hardening process. To harden Al you need to heat treat it. For example Al alloy 6061 is a very strong and durable aluminum alloy, but 6061 with T6 heat treatment is even stronger. Anodizing is simply a protective coating that has some variable properties depending on the coating. Most anodizing is decorative, it protects the AL from oxidizing and protects the surface better than paint or powdercoat because it forms a molecular bond with the surface of the AL. Military spec hard coats of anodizing are the most durable, and the most resistant to surface abuse, but these hard coats leave the surface with a texture (they're never smooth), and even these hard coatings can be scratched through with a carbide scraper.

jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #29, 01-01-2004 03:44 AM
      Will,

The rings were ballpark quoted me at $350 minimum to $450 maximum. I'm betting it's going to be at the higher end of the scale, what do you want to bet?? Which pistons are you using? Mine are the early pistons with the thick lands. The later, thin land pistons use different rings (I know, you already knew that, but some other readers may not have).

Swain's web site doesn't explain the differences very well at all. I had to call them and talk to them about them. On the dome coatings, the Gold Coat (GC) is a better, more durable coating. All but one of the Indy cars last year used Swain Tech GC on their pistons. The downside of it is that the GC needs to be installed and run in the engine within 30 days of them coating it to final cure the coating. I wasn't going to be able to do that, so I went with the Thermal Barrier (TB) coating on mine which is about 90% as effective as the GC, according to them. For the skirts, The PC-9 is more durable than Poly Moly (PM) but their "slipperiness" is about the same. Because of it's durability, they can also coat the piston thicker with PC-9 and control it very well to make an even coat across the skirts. I had mine done with the TBC top and PC-9 skirts. Yes, I know it's expensive. In fact, it's about half the cost of a new set of forged pistons. Frankly, unless I get into some severe detonation that breaks the lands out, I think the durability should be as good or better than forged, but that remains to be seen.

Even if I had gone forged pistons, I would have at least done the TBC on the tops. In the two engines I've had ceramic coatings done on the domes, I saw about a 30į drop in oil temperature because it keeps the heat out of the piston, which is transferred through the rods and rings to the rest of the engine components. I think it's worth it, but a lot of people don't so the usual caveats apply, of course.

Give Swain a call. Tell them how you're going to use your engine and they'll help recommend the coating that will help you the best. They won't try to oversell you with something that won't help. I was very happy with them. In shop turnaround for them was about 7 days. That goes to 14 days at certain times of the year when they're doing a lot of racing engines that HAVE to be done on time.

John Stricker


 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

How much were you quoted for your custom rings?
I'm getting ideas...
If I read the Swain price list correctly, I'd be down $18 a piece if I had my skirts coated with the high end PC-9 stuff (where do they describe the different coatings, anyway?), and $42 each if I have the skirts coated with PC-9 and the tops coated with GC, which is actually more cost effective than skirt or dome coatings by themselves.

Rods: $450
Pistons: $600??
Rings: ??
Coatings: $350
Block machining: $300+ (Wcapman spent about $300, but didn't have the head bolt holes thread-serted)

Looking like it'll be close to $2000 by the time everything's put together, but that will be one built shortblock.

The fortunate aspect of this is that I don't have to do this quickly, as I'm still 5 months out from being 100% after knee surgery.

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 01-01-2004).]

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #30, 01-12-2004 12:33 AM
      Any progress/closure on this? Interesting reading.

Bryce
88 GT


1986GTV8 MSG #31, 01-12-2004 02:42 AM
      See below, 520 - 2000 hp N*


http://hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/113_0303/north



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #32, 01-12-2004 09:41 AM
      I'm going to wait a few months to do it the way I really want to. Eagle rods, forged pistons, high end skirt and top coatings, gapless rings, timeserted block, etc.

Here's some stuff from Allen Cline:

 
quote
Your Fiero Northstar...I would just replace the head gasket and timesert
the head bolt holes while I was at it. If you decide you REALLY want to
re-ring it just put in new rings. Don't hone it. You'll just mess up
what was there. You'll likely still see the factory hone pattern still in
the bore if you look closely. Re-honing is greatly over-rated and not
needed....especially with the Northstar with the aggressive plateau honing
used. Just replace the head gasket. Don't disassemble the heads or
anything, they are fine. Do the timesert inserts on the head bolt holes
to prevent any head bolts from strippping and to make it bulletproof. Use
the factory head gaskets and new head bolts with no sealers or addtives to
the head gaskets. Timeserts are the only thread inserts to use on the
Northstar head bolt holes and there is a special kit and inserts for the
Northstar head bolt holes. Use only that special kit and inserts.
Helicoils and others will not work. Trust me.

At that time I'm also going to install SPEC stage III and aluminum flywheel, as well as CHRF springs and retainers. And maybe install the 3.94 FD and 1.02 4th I have lying around.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #33, 01-13-2004 12:06 AM
      More stuff from Allen Cline:

 
quote

Glanced at the website you mentioned about the breakin. Don't totally
disagree with him....but...the falicy in his reasoning is that the rings do
NOT stay in position....so...."wearing" the ring into the cylinder wall is
not what happens. On a perfectly green engine there is the act of
scraping down the high spots on the cylinder wall on break in. This is on
a microscopic level, of course. Just the "peaks" of the honing marks and
other surface irregularities are very quickly worn away by the rings. The
rings actually seal against the SIDES of the ring grooves....so...the
greatest factor in ring break in is mating the rings to the side of the
ring grooves. At high speed/high RPM the rings constantly rotate around
the piston.. So, it is wrong to assume that the ring mates to the cylinder
wall to any degree. If you run an engine for breakin as I have done and
examine the rings carefully under magnification (remember those 150
Northstars I mentioned..??) the ring face will look brand new...totally
unscatched. All the breakin is getting the high spots off the cylinder
walls (this just reduces friction...nothing to do with sealing to speak of)
and seating the rings against the SIDES of the ring grooves. That is why
it is important to have goo prelube on the rings as the pressrue actually
burnishes the ring against the side of the groove making a good seal.
so...the fellows guidelines for breakin are not totally out of line. I
just think he invented to wrong reason to explain why it works.

My favorite break-in maneuver is to get on the freeway where 55-80 MPH is
no big deal. You'll have to substitute the appropriate speeds for your
vehicle and gearing but on the Cadillacs with Norhtstars I use manual 2nd
gear at about 60 to start. Go full throttle to the normal shift
point/redline , let off completely to allow heavy engine braking down to
about 4000 RPM, go full throttle back to redline, let off completely back
to 4000 RPM, etc. Do this cylce maybe 20 times and then drive normally
in 4 to cool things down. Repeat as often as necessary. The alternate
load/overrun condition is very good for exercising the rings and the
alternate loads against the sides of the ring lands will seat them quickly.
The high RPM will promote ring rotation which is good also.

If anyone tells you the rings don't rotate you can be assured that they do
not know what they are talking about. All the conern over ring alignment
and such at assembly is a great idea...but...it really doesn't matter much
as the ring gap will rotate to new locations when the engine is run. I
have seen data on engines from the past where a radioactive tracer was
placed on the rings so that a gieger counter external to the engine could
pick up the radioactive tracer as it went by. It was possible to actually
calculate the ring rotation RPM at a constant high speed load point..!!!



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #34, 01-13-2004 12:08 AM
     
 
quote

If you eliminate the oil filter adapter and go to a remote one realize that
ALL the engine's oil goes out that port in the block. ALL of it. There
is no provision for internal bypassing or anything. Use large line with
an ID of AT LEAST as large as the ports in the side of the block. The
Northstar engine flows a LOT of oil. About 12 GPM at 6500 RPM. You do
NOT want to restrict that oil circuit. The normal bypass circuit is built
into the oil filter adapter so you must make provisions for a bypass in the
remote filters and/or have sufficient filters to not bypass. It will take
large lines and two of the big truck filters in parallel to make sure there
is no pressure drop with no bypass.

The piston skirt coatings are OK. I don't know that you'll see any
advantage with them but they don't hurt. The main advantage to us is that
they let us fit the pistons a little tighter for less noise (less piston
slap) wihout worrying about scuffing a piston when the engine is cold and
the pistons expand rapidly on a WOT maneuver. Personally, I wouldn't
bother on a stock engine like you are dealing with..or one that is slighty
warmed over.



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #35, 01-13-2004 12:51 AM
      I thought the old wives tale about the rings not rotating had gone away a long time ago but I guess not. There ARE some rings that don't rotate, mostly in two strokes that have pinned lands, but everything else rotates and, in fact, is designed to rotate.

Nice quotes Will.

John Stricker

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

More stuff from Allen Cline:

If anyone tells you the rings don't rotate you can be assured that they do
not know what they are talking about. All the conern over ring alignment
and such at assembly is a great idea...but...it really doesn't matter much
as the ring gap will rotate to new locations when the engine is run. I
have seen data on engines from the past where a radioactive tracer was
placed on the rings so that a gieger counter external to the engine could
pick up the radioactive tracer as it went by. It was possible to actually
calculate the ring rotation RPM at a constant high speed load point..!!!



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #36, 01-13-2004 12:53 AM
      I have no idea what happened with this.......................................

[This message has been edited by jstricker (edited 01-13-2004).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #37, 01-13-2004 08:06 PM
      A bit more:

 
quote

If you eliminate the oil filter adapter and go to a remote one realize that
ALL the engine's oil goes out that port in the block. ALL of it. There
is no provision for internal bypassing or anything. Use large line with
an ID of AT LEAST as large as the ports in the side of the block. The
Northstar engine flows a LOT of oil. About 12 GPM at 6500 RPM. You do
NOT want to restrict that oil circuit. The normal bypass circuit is built
into the oil filter adapter so you must make provisions for a bypass in the
remote filters and/or have sufficient filters to not bypass. It will take
large lines and two of the big truck filters in parallel to make sure there
is no pressure drop with no bypass.

The piston skirt coatings are OK. I don't know that you'll see any
advantage with them but they don't hurt. The main advantage to us is that
they let us fit the pistons a little tighter for less noise (less piston
slap) wihout worrying about scuffing a piston when the engine is cold and
the pistons expand rapidly on a WOT maneuver. Personally, I wouldn't
bother on a stock engine like you are dealing with..or one that is slighty
warmed over.


I think that because I have obligations to Street Dreams to test the aluminum knuckles, I'll go ahead and re-ring, timesert, and install new gaskets. Quick and cheap. I'll go valvesprings, and SPEC clutch and flywheel while I have the engine out. Maybe I can even find the time/money to overhaul another Getrag and install the 1.02 4th and 3.94 final. I want that transmission!



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #38, 02-04-2004 01:21 PM
      Working up the budget...
code:

Eagle Rods $450 (to be ordered shortly)
Pistons $0 (already had a set of stock early style)
Piston Coating $300 (Swain Tech TBC dome and PC-9 skirt, also to be ordered shortly)
Piston Rings $330 (Total Seal MaxSeal gapless top ring with Napier 2nd ring, also ordered shortly)
Bearings $?? (wcapman used Clevite mains with GM rods, but CHRF may have some new specialized bearings soon...)
Machine work $300 (align bore block, align grind crank, balance rotating assembly)
TimeSerts $43.80 (www.timesert.com, $2.58 each for <20, $2.19 each for 20 or more. Jstricker has graciously offered
to let me use his TimeSert toolset, which would be $294 direct from TimeSert)


Looking at $1420+ for the short block... may have to pass on the valvesprings this time...

Another $1300 for a $500 Getrag overhaul and $800 SPEC clutch and flywheel

Looking for the week of the 22nd of March to do the work.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #39, 02-04-2004 05:38 PM
      ARP does not make head studs specifically for the Northstar, however, a VW stud works just fine. The kit is ARP P/N 204-4204. The cheapest place I've seen it is from Summit for $97.39 each. Two kits are required for a Northstar.
No ARP rod bolts of main studs exist for this engine, but I will be sending them a rod bolt or two once the pistons are disassembled, and will work with them on main studs... we'll see what I actually deem cost-effective. CHRFab obviously has to use stock rod bolts, since nothing else is available, and those seem to tolerate plenty of RPM.

Still need: main studs/bolts, new style oil pump

Jstricker, I know I get the pump from GM, but what do I need to ask for there?



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #40, 02-04-2004 11:46 PM
      Will,

I'll get you the pump P/N tomorrow when I'm back over at the shop, sorry I didn't see the thread sooner. As you're working up your budget, I noticed you don't have anything for gaskets. There are no sets available that I've ever found and not all of them are available from GMPartsdirect, I had to order some of them from my GM dealer. You'll have a minimum of $200 in gaskets, IIRC. You might also consider the late balancer. It was part of a SB and the old style could allow it to lose tendion on the oil pump drive sleeve. I don't remember what year your engine is, so I'd have to check if the SB applies to your engine to tell if you have the early or late style.

Now that I think about it, I might just email you a copy of the SB's on the pump and the balancer in the morning. They have the P/N's in them for both and you can determine if you need them or not.

I haven't gotten around to ordering my timeserts yet, either you or I could order enough for both our engines and split the cost, save some money on the quantity and shipping, maybe.

I'll email you in the morning.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

ARP does not make head studs specifically for the Northstar, however, a VW stud works just fine. The kit is ARP P/N 204-4204. The cheapest place I've seen it is from Summit for $97.39 each. Two kits are required for a Northstar.
No ARP rod bolts of main studs exist for this engine, but I will be sending them a rod bolt or two once the pistons are disassembled, and will work with them on main studs... we'll see what I actually deem cost-effective. CHRFab obviously has to use stock rod bolts, since nothing else is available, and those seem to tolerate plenty of RPM.

Still need: main studs/bolts, new style oil pump

Jstricker, I know I get the pump from GM, but what do I need to ask for there?



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #41, 02-05-2004 08:35 AM
      Oops... I ordered the timeserts yesterday. The only part of the build that's cheap.... I'm waiting for my check from E*trade to arrive before I order anything else.

I know about gaskets, and I know from talking to wcapman I'll have a couple hundred dollars worth. This part of the budget is for short block assembly stuff that has to be together so that I can get the block machining done. I have gaskets in the long block part of the budget.



bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #42, 02-05-2004 12:10 PM
      Fel-Pro makes head gaskets.

[Head Gasket SPVQ: 1] L.H.; Head bolts not incl.
Fel-Pro fel 26150PT In Stock: Usually ships in one business day $18.40

[Head Gasket SPVQ: 1] R.H.; Head bolts not incl.
Fel-Pro fel 26151PT Usually ships in 1-3 working days $18.40

They also have head bolts

Fel-Pro fel ES72186 Usually ships in 1-3 working days $26.75

You can find these at: http://www.fel-progaskets.com/Default.aspx

Edit: Here's some more goodies, gaskets, bearings and such: http://www.federal-mogul.com/cda/channel/index/0,2186,2442_7106,00.html

[This message has been edited by bushroot (edited 02-05-2004).]

bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #43, 02-05-2004 09:49 PM
      Bump

jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #44, 02-06-2004 01:14 AM
      Bushroot,

That's one of the most informative sites for parts I've ever seen, a + for you for pointing it out. Their prices aren't bad either. Have you ordered much from them? How's their service? Since I've been burned by 1 "Yahoo vendors" and yahoo would do nothing about it, I shy away from them, but if you have good experiences with them, I'll give them a try.

Personally, though, I'd still stick with the GM head gaskets for the Northstar, but there's a lot more than just that on the site.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by bushroot:

Fel-Pro makes head gaskets.

http://www.fel-progaskets.com/Default.aspx




bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #45, 02-06-2004 12:09 PM
      I did order head gaskets and bolts from them (however, knowing that v-dub ARP studs will work now...). I placed my order late in the week if I recall correctly, and received my parts late the next week. I can't recommend them unequivocally, but I had good luck with them. I still need to decide what I'm doing with this engine. It has less than 12k on it, but I really want to raise the compression and get some better rods. I'd like to be able to pull 100 HP/L out of it. Hell, if Honda can get 106 HP/L out of their production multivalves, why can't I do so with some tweaking? I was originally going to breathe on it a little bit, but 8500 RPM or so is sounding better all the time. I'm thinking right around 11.2:1 and 8k-8.5k for a redline.

jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #46, 02-06-2004 04:03 PM
      Leave the compression alone, IMHO, and work on the heads and cams. I think you could get very close to that HP with CHRFab's cams, springs, and head work and not have the detonation worries. Of course, a more aggressive fuel and timing profile will be helpful as well.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by bushroot:

I did order head gaskets and bolts from them (however, knowing that v-dub ARP studs will work now...). I placed my order late in the week if I recall correctly, and received my parts late the next week. I can't recommend them unequivocally, but I had good luck with them. I still need to decide what I'm doing with this engine. It has less than 12k on it, but I really want to raise the compression and get some better rods. I'd like to be able to pull 100 HP/L out of it. Hell, if Honda can get 106 HP/L out of their production multivalves, why can't I do so with some tweaking? I was originally going to breathe on it a little bit, but 8500 RPM or so is sounding better all the time. I'm thinking right around 11.2:1 and 8k-8.5k for a redline.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #47, 02-06-2004 05:46 PM
      Coating the pistons and chambers will trap more heat in the combustion products and have the same effect as increasing compression.



bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #48, 02-07-2004 09:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:

Leave the compression alone, IMHO, and work on the heads and cams. I think you could get very close to that HP with CHRFab's cams, springs, and head work and not have the detonation worries. Of course, a more aggressive fuel and timing profile will be helpful as well.

John Stricker


The only thing from CHRFAB going on my engine are the engine mounts and the remote oil bypass.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #49, 02-07-2004 12:38 PM
      Why nothing else? I think it's a little odd that you're refusing to use any of their other stuff, but will use their external oil filter adapter. I would think that piece wouldn't be hard to make.



bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #50, 02-07-2004 06:14 PM
      I'm not a machinist. I'm an electrical engineer. Although I do have some machining experience, I would rather pay someone for these parts. My time is worth something to me. The prices quoted by Alan were $55 for the oil bypass and $210 for the mounts. The bypass is a steal. I like his mounts and it would take me quite a while to replicate something like that on a manual mill. I'd rather have someone else do the cams and heads. You forget, mine is the 2000+ Northstar. Alan didn't express enough confidence in his experience with them to justify his pricing. As much as it's his right to charge as much as he likes for his services, it's my right as a potential customer to decide where I'd like to place my trust and money. This isn't intended as an insult towards Alan in any way, so I'd appreciate if it isn't construed as such.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #51, 02-07-2004 09:01 PM
      Alan seemed to be confident that he could grind custom roller cams for me if I supplied him 8620 steel blanks. I'd be more concerned that he wasn't on the absolute cutting edge of roller cam lobe development. I'd be more inclined to get cam specs from one of the leading LS1 cam grinders and have him cut cams to those specs from blanks I supply.



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #52, 02-07-2004 11:08 PM
      I think you already know this, but on the off chance you don't, the piece from CHRFab is NOT a bypass, it's a remote filter adapter and simply a hunk of machined aluminum (nicely machined hunk, but a hunk nonetheless). It has no bypass capabilities, at least the one in my hot little hands doesn't. I only mention it because you keep calling it a "bypass".

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by bushroot:

I'm not a machinist. I'm an electrical engineer. Although I do have some machining experience, I would rather pay someone for these parts. My time is worth something to me. The prices quoted by Alan were $55 for the oil bypass and $210 for the mounts. The bypass is a steal. I like his mounts and it would take me quite a while to replicate something like that on a manual mill. I'd rather have someone else do the cams and heads. You forget, mine is the 2000+ Northstar. Alan didn't express enough confidence in his experience with them to justify his pricing. As much as it's his right to charge as much as he likes for his services, it's my right as a potential customer to decide where I'd like to place my trust and money. This isn't intended as an insult towards Alan in any way, so I'd appreciate if it isn't construed as such.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #53, 02-07-2004 11:18 PM
      Yes, that should definitely be noted. The N* flows 12 gpm of oil at redline, and without a bypass you'll need a LOT of filter, or an external bypass, to not restrict the oil flow. If you're going to use the Caddy filter, fine, but if you use a Chevy filter, remember that they do NOT have bypasses in them and you'll need TWO Chevy truck filters in parallel to not restrict the flow.



bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #54, 02-07-2004 11:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:

I think you already know this, but on the off chance you don't, the piece from CHRFab is NOT a bypass, it's a remote filter adapter and simply a hunk of machined aluminum (nicely machined hunk, but a hunk nonetheless). It has no bypass capabilities, at least the one in my hot little hands doesn't. I only mention it because you keep calling it a "bypass".

John Stricker

I (obviously incorrectly) called it a bypass. Yes, I know it's only an adapter. The plan was one of these. http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ProductDisplay?prrfnbr=1791&prmenbr=361


Edit: fingers no worky worky when cold

[This message has been edited by bushroot (edited 02-07-2004).]

bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #55, 02-07-2004 11:55 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Alan seemed to be confident that he could grind custom roller cams for me if I supplied him 8620 steel blanks. I'd be more concerned that he wasn't on the absolute cutting edge of roller cam lobe development. I'd be more inclined to get cam specs from one of the leading LS1 cam grinders and have him cut cams to those specs from blanks I supply.

If you manage to get some MY2000+ cam blanks, or decide to make some...LET ME KNOW! I contacted GM Performance, they couldn't (or wouldn't) get me a set of billets. For now, I'm going regrind. I was thinking I'd keep the stock lift (from what I'm told, you can cut the bottom of the lobe to increase lift). From what Terry (the guy doing my trans) has worked out for me, I'll want something like 288/294 for duration. We'll see if that's possible. That should get me to 8500 RPM without it falling on its face. As for the valve springs, he's not so sure I need 100lb. springs, so the jury is still out on that one. Did you know that F1 cars run about 60lb. valve springs and are capable of running 17,000 or so RPM? Also, something of interest, I did both piston and crank speed calculations. The Northstar should live fine around 8 grand. I'm sure this is something Alan had already figured out. I'm curious why they built such a safety margin into the engine.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #56, 02-07-2004 11:56 PM
      that's what I'm going to be using for my break-in oil system....

jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #57, 02-08-2004 01:49 AM
      Their valves are much, MUCH lighter, for one thing. Mostly titanium. Makes a lot of difference.

I figured you already knew about the adapter not being a bypass, but you know how it is, unless you say something, you never know.

The filter adapters you linked to have served me well in the past, I used to use the same ones on Big Block Chevy's in race boats. They don't have a bypass in them either. That's fine, just make sure you change them often and don't believe the Northstar advertising that you can go 10K miles before an oil change. The Northstar has a very high volume oil system and a lot of oil is going to be moving through them, so use good filters.

John Stricker

 
quote
Originally posted by bushroot:


If you manage to get some MY2000+ cam blanks, or decide to make some...LET ME KNOW! I contacted GM Performance, they couldn't (or wouldn't) get me a set of billets. For now, I'm going regrind. I was thinking I'd keep the stock lift (from what I'm told, you can cut the bottom of the lobe to increase lift). From what Terry (the guy doing my trans) has worked out for me, I'll want something like 288/294 for duration. We'll see if that's possible. That should get me to 8500 RPM without it falling on its face. As for the valve springs, he's not so sure I need 100lb. springs, so the jury is still out on that one. Did you know that F1 cars run about 60lb. valve springs and are capable of running 17,000 or so RPM? Also, something of interest, I did both piston and crank speed calculations. The Northstar should live fine around 8 grand. I'm sure this is something Alan had already figured out. I'm curious why they built such a safety margin into the engine.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #58, 02-08-2004 09:24 AM
      F1 cars have the absolute minimum valvetrain mass, as jstricker says. Also, I'm sure that VERY, VERY few people have ANY real knowledge of F1 valvespring rates. I would be pretty surprised if "the guy doing your trans" is one of those people, unless he has a lot of other qualifications.
I thought they closed the valves pneumatically anyway. If they do use springs, F1 springs are going to be tapered and behived and wound with oval wire and all the other tricks to get max revs from minimum spring rate.

AJ's website claims that his springs work with stock retainers, which means they are most likely not tapered. Northstars also have hydraulic lash adjusters that reciprocate with the valve. They add a bit of mass and F1 engines CERTAINLY will not have them.



bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #59, 02-08-2004 03:44 PM
      What, do I have to get a copy of his resume for you guys? If youíre interested in having work done by him, E-mail me. Iíll get you the contact info. Iím sure heíd be more than happy to fill you in on his credentials. This guy worked on the Cosworth/Ford F1 project in the late 70's/early 80's, he knows Jack Roush and John Quaife by first name. Why don't you ask him if he's qualified?

[This message has been edited by bushroot (edited 02-08-2004).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #60, 02-08-2004 06:21 PM
      Oh yeah, the guy who's installing the external lube and such... Ok... I forgot who the "guy doing your trans" was...

Needless to say, F1 has changed a LOT since the early '80's. F1 engines were in the 10-12 thousand RPM range back then. Now adays they're using pneumatic pressure to close the valves.

http://www.indiacar.com/index2.asp?pagename=http://www.indiacar.com/nfs/technical/pvengine.htm



bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #61, 02-08-2004 07:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Oh yeah, the guy who's installing the external lube and such... Ok... I forgot who the "guy doing your trans" was...

Needless to say, F1 has changed a LOT since the early '80's. F1 engines were in the 10-12 thousand RPM range back then. Now adays they're using pneumatic pressure to close the valves.

http://www.indiacar.com/index2.asp?pagename=http://www.indiacar.com/nfs/technica l/pvengine.htm

And who developed the air bag system for valves?...Cosworth developed it. Still, not everyone is using the system. From what Terry says, it was originally used because it doesn't have the resonant frequency problems associated with traditional valve springs.

[This message has been edited by bushroot (edited 02-08-2004).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #62, 02-20-2004 08:14 PM
      Yay, progress!

I ordered a set of Eagle conrods from the ebay user "dynoflo1" today. They were $469 with free shipping. The pistons will be shipped off for Swain's TBC on the tops and PC-9 on the skirts on Monday. I was unfortunately unable to talk to either Ed or Kevin at Total Seal today, but I should be able to do that on Monday as well. I picked up $257 worth of gaskets from my local GM dealer. The spak plug O-rings came in packs of 5 (???). Still need: bearings, valvesprings, new piston pin locks, crank case sealant...

I will be having the assembly balanced of course... in the interests of expediency I bought a N* crank for $50 on ebay, and will be buying a block from Wcapman. I'll have the short block almost fully assembled when I go back to VA to work on the car.

I also spoke with Bud Adelman of Bud's Outback in AZ ( www.gr8grip.com ) about his new LSD which is similar to a Phantom Grip, only about 80% more effective. I'll have more on that when I get it on the road.



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #63, 02-20-2004 08:38 PM
      Will,

I don't remember what those O rings cost, but they weren't much when I ordered them from gmpartsdirect. Because of the price, I ordered 8. Guess how many I have now?? If you'd have said something (or I'd have thought to ask) I'd have thrown you 8 in with the timesert set. I've also got an extra set of new timing chain guides I'd let you have for cheap (the two, long nylon ones, they come with the bolts.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Yay, progress!

I ordered a set of Eagle conrods from the ebay user "dynoflo1" today. They were $469 with free shipping. The pistons will be shipped off for Swain's TBC on the tops and PC-9 on the skirts on Monday. I was unfortunately unable to talk to either Ed or Kevin at Total Seal today, but I should be able to do that on Monday as well. I picked up $257 worth of gaskets from my local GM dealer. The spak plug O-rings came in packs of 5 (???). Still need: bearings, valvesprings, new piston pin locks, crank case sealant...

I will be having the assembly balanced of course... in the interests of expediency I bought a N* crank for $50 on ebay, and will be buying a block from Wcapman. I'll have the short block almost fully assembled when I go back to VA to work on the car.

I also spoke with Bud Adelman of Bud's Outback in AZ ( www.gr8grip.com ) about his new LSD which is similar to a Phantom Grip, only about 80% more effective. I'll have more on that when I get it on the road.



Howard_Sacks (@hotmail.com) MSG #64, 02-20-2004 08:56 PM
      It has been explained to me that F1 cars use have actual valve springs. They use the air to prevent float at high RPMS.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

F1 cars have the absolute minimum valvetrain mass, as jstricker says. Also, I'm sure that VERY, VERY few people have ANY real knowledge of F1 valvespring rates. I would be pretty surprised if "the guy doing your trans" is one of those people, unless he has a lot of other qualifications.
I thought they closed the valves pneumatically anyway. If they do use springs, F1 springs are going to be tapered and behived and wound with oval wire and all the other tricks to get max revs from minimum spring rate.

AJ's website claims that his springs work with stock retainers, which means they are most likely not tapered. Northstars also have hydraulic lash adjusters that reciprocate with the valve. They add a bit of mass and F1 engines CERTAINLY will not have them.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #65, 02-20-2004 09:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:

Will,

I don't remember what those O rings cost, but they weren't much when I ordered them from gmpartsdirect. Because of the price, I ordered 8. Guess how many I have now?? If you'd have said something (or I'd have thought to ask) I'd have thrown you 8 in with the timesert set. I've also got an extra set of new timing chain guides I'd let you have for cheap (the two, long nylon ones, they come with the bolts.

John Stricker

I was going to use the chain guides that are in the engine currently, but if I can get new ones from you, why not?
I just thought it odd that two packs of N* spark plug o-rings will o-ring a V-10.



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #66, 02-20-2004 10:03 PM
      Yes, the logic of an accountant was in play here, no doubt. I'll go back and see what they cost, but they weren't outrageous, and I'll make you a heck of deal on the guides if you want them. I'll send you an email tomorrow from the shop.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


I was going to use the chain guides that are in the engine currently, but if I can get new ones from you, why not?
I just thought it odd that two packs of N* spark plug o-rings will o-ring a V-10.




Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #67, 02-23-2004 10:25 AM
      Ordered Total Seal rings today. Modified Max-Seal set with gapless top ring and Napier 2nd ring, along with assembly lube and whatever their cylinder molykote stuff is.



86 FIERO GT (vansboy911@aol.com) MSG #68, 02-23-2004 10:47 AM
      Will, what is the advantage with the total seal kit? My other question is would be whether you goin to have the cranks, rods and pistons spun balanced like they come from the factory?



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #69, 02-23-2004 11:02 AM
      Total Seal gapless rings should seal better than a normal ring with conventional gap. I also had them put together a Napier scraper profile 2nd ring for oil control.
If I were putting together a stock rotating assembly I might or might not have it balanced, but since I'm usign Eagle rods which do not weigh the same as the stock rods, I MUST have the assembly balanced. More on that when I get it done.



Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #70, 02-23-2004 11:25 AM
      Will you said that the H lash adj's reciprocate with the valve train, but on my S* the hydraulic lash adjusters are set in the head casting and is just a pivit point. So I wonder if this is a change on the Y2K N* also or a S* only valve train? Dose anyone have pics of the Y2K N* vale train? With less valve train mass the RPM's could go higher without valve floting, if GM used the same rate spring ratios on the S* as they used on the pre Y2K N*.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #71, 02-23-2004 11:34 AM
      The '99 and older N*'s use a direct acting hydraulic bucket tappet. The Y2K and newer engines use rocker arms with rollers and the hydraulic lash adjusters in the cylinder head itself. Overall it should be a reduction in valvetrain mass and friction.



Fiero STS (onesupermech@netscape.net) MSG #72, 02-23-2004 11:45 AM
      Y2K looks just like your pictures.

bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #73, 02-23-2004 12:08 PM
      As posted above, the 2000 and newer engines look identical to yours Rick.

GSXRBOBBY (robertmanker@yahoo.com) MSG #74, 02-23-2004 01:07 PM
      I didn't want to add this post here but I could find the clutch thread we were on before.

I talked with David Norton at Spec and he got the flexplate, thanks again for shipping that for us! And he said he can do it for under $400 and he will keep it on file so we "anyone"can go back there. He said he still wouldn't charge me a set up fee and it isn't like any other flywheel that he has done before. He said the back of the crank is alot larger than most. If anyone has any questions about this feel free to e-mail me.



Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #75, 02-23-2004 10:14 PM
      Thanks for the help. If I ever get around to rebuilding one of my 3.5's. I may try some of things you guys are talking about.

jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #76, 02-23-2004 11:18 PM
      Will,

I ordered some of their cylinder coating as well. I'm curious to see what it's like but according to them, it cuts ring break in time down by a bunch. I've been using Royal Purple Synthetic Assembly Lube the last few engines I've built and I've been VERY happy with it. It's also been getting good reviews in some of the machine shop magazines I get. It seems to really stay on the bearings well so that's what I'm using in my Northstar.

I get it from a local dealer but it's also available from Jegs if you can't find it locally. Good stuff.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Ordered Total Seal rings today. Modified Max-Seal set with gapless top ring and Napier 2nd ring, along with assembly lube and whatever their cylinder molykote stuff is.



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #77, 02-23-2004 11:23 PM
      The Total Seal Gapless rings are just what their name says they are. The compression rings are two piece and have no real gap like a conventional ringset has. Total Seal's Website is pretty informative in How They Work if you want to check it out.

If you're sticking with all stock major reciprocating components (Pistons, Rods, Crank, Flywheel, Dampner) then the factory balance should be fine for you. If you change any of them then you probably should take it to a shop that does balance work like Will is doing since he's using the Eagle rods.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by 86 FIERO GT:

Will, what is the advantage with the total seal kit? My other question is would be whether you goin to have the cranks, rods and pistons spun balanced like they come from the factory?



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #78, 02-24-2004 06:12 PM
      Will,

I got my set of TotalSeal rings today. The cylinder coat is a dry powder in a container about the size of the cam assembly lube that Alan sends with his cams. There is just a tiny bit of powder in there and quite frankly, I don't see how it's going to be enough to do all eight cylinders but it says "a tiny bit goes a long way" so I'm going to reserve judgment until I actually try to use some of it. The piston assembly lube is in about an 8 oz bottle that you use to lube the skirts and rings with just a few drops so it looks like there's enough of it to do 3 or 4 engines if used by directions. We'll find out. You can expect your rings in a day or two if they ship to you like they did me.

Did you get the Timesert set yet?

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Ordered Total Seal rings today. Modified Max-Seal set with gapless top ring and Napier 2nd ring, along with assembly lube and whatever their cylinder molykote stuff is.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #79, 02-24-2004 06:33 PM
      Yeah, got the timesert stuff today and the chain guides yesterday. Thanks



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #80, 02-24-2004 07:58 PM
      The USPS beat UPS???? Wow

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Yeah, got the timesert stuff today and the chain guides yesterday. Thanks



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #81, 02-25-2004 08:34 PM
      Got the crank today... genius who shipped it packed it in styrofoam peanuts, a couple of random chunks of foam and some collapsed boxes. Grr... I hope UPS was gentle with it.
Hopefully able to take everything to the machine shop next week, but we'll see. Still waiting for rods, rings, piston coatings and some miscellaneous parts.



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #82, 02-25-2004 09:18 PM
      That crap annoys the heck out of me. I got my crank in a wooden crate fitted to the crank, inside a cardboard box. I had to send mine back as a core. The sent the wrong bearings (.010 under when the crank was standard) and I called them to correct that. I told them my core would be going out that day in their crate and they said "you're about the first person that hasn't complained about our box being too heavy".

Better to pay an extra few $$ and get there safely than have it come with nicked journals.

Sounds like you're going to be an engine building fool this weekend.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Got the crank today... genius who shipped it packed it in styrofoam peanuts, a couple of random chunks of foam and some collapsed boxes. Grr... I hope UPS was gentle with it.
Hopefully able to take everything to the machine shop next week, but we'll see. Still waiting for rods, rings, piston coatings and some miscellaneous parts.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #83, 03-09-2004 01:53 PM
      Eagle rods came last week. Pistons arrived yesterday. Waiting for cylinder head dowels, piston pins, pin retainers and main bolts. Clevite now has undersized bearings available, so I'll confer with the machinist today or tomorrow about what, if anything the crank needs and what bearings I'll need to buy.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #84, 03-10-2004 12:05 AM
      got 10 more time serts installed tonight. That makes 16 in my block and 12 in wcapman's. No wonder AJ charges $400 to install these things.



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #85, 03-10-2004 01:12 AM
      Making progress. Send the set back when you get done, I'm about ready to do mine. It looks like a slow, but not complicated, process. Haven't heard from you for awhile and wondered how you were coming along with it.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

got 10 more time serts installed tonight. That makes 16 in my block and 12 in wcapman's. No wonder AJ charges $400 to install these things.



GSXRBOBBY (robertmanker@yahoo.com) MSG #86, 03-11-2004 07:09 PM
      Will you not done yet, man this is taking forever!!!!!!!!


Just joking!



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #87, 03-13-2004 07:01 PM
      I got the block, crank, rods, pistons and rings to the machine shop Friday. A couple of the bores are a bit out of round. He's going to hone each one the minimum necessary to get it round and I'll just live with having piston clearances wider in some bores than in others...

Crank was on size. I need to get the machinist a standard rod bearing for the balancing. However, the rod bearings are on national back order from GM. Summit can get them (even undersized now) from Clevite, but normally would take a week. I was able to get them to have Clevite overnight the bearings directly to me--fortunately Clevite had some in stock. And they're still $20+ per cylinder...



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #88, 03-13-2004 11:27 PM
      Will,

My crankshaft came from Standard Crankshaft. With shipping it was $249.50 and that included new rod and main bearings (Clevite). There was something like a $180 core charge, but mine was an acceptable core.

Glad to hear things are moving along. I'm surprised the bores were out of round, mine were nearly perfect.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I got the block, crank, rods, pistons and rings to the machine shop Friday. A couple of the bores are a bit out of round. He's going to hone each one the minimum necessary to get it round and I'll just live with having piston clearances wider in some bores than in others...

Crank was on size. I need to get the machinist a standard rod bearing for the balancing. However, the rod bearings are on national back order from GM. Summit can get them (even undersized now) from Clevite, but normally would take a week. I was able to get them to have Clevite overnight the bearings directly to me--fortunately Clevite had some in stock. And they're still $20+ per cylinder...



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #89, 03-14-2004 12:39 AM
      Me too, especially since the longitudinal diameter was the long one. Lotta miles on this block, though. Half a dozen head bolt holes let go of their threads just from snugging the bolts down to secure the guide plate.



86 FIERO GT (vansboy911@aol.com) MSG #90, 03-14-2004 01:02 PM
      Did you do all the block and head bolts with zerts? When we did my motor we did them all that way you dont pull the threads when you go to torque it all back together.

May I ask why you ordered another crank? Did something happen to yours?



Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #91, 03-14-2004 07:21 PM
      Ok, I read thru the whole thing and no pics? C'mon you guys you know we need pics!



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #92, 03-14-2004 09:40 PM
      I'll post some pictures when I assemble the thing...

I'm building a replacement short block, not overhauling the engine in my car now. I got a block from wcapman, crank from ebay, Eagle rods, coated some pistons that I already had around, ordered Clevite bearings, etc.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #93, 03-14-2004 09:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:
My crankshaft came from Standard Crankshaft. With shipping it was $249.50 and that included new rod and main bearings (Clevite). There was something like a $180 core charge, but mine was an acceptable core.

That sounds like a hell of a deal. I don't know how they can get you those bearings so cheap. Summit's prices were over $170 for rods and $53 for mains. Hope that $30 crank shaft holds up.

I guess if N* cranks hardly ever wear out they can basically give them away because they're almost guaranteed a good core.



GSXRBOBBY (robertmanker@yahoo.com) MSG #94, 03-17-2004 11:30 PM
      Hey Will how much was the rebuild kit and or gasket kit for the Northstar? Are they really $$$$, the valve cover gasket was $40.00 by me.



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #95, 03-18-2004 12:36 AM
      One valve cover gasket was $40???

GM Partsdirect shows list price at $13.28 each, they sell them for $7.57. But GMPD has outrageous shipping on small parts so it will actually cost you more to order them from GMPD and have them shipped than to go to a dealer and buy them.

Don't forget that you also need the 8 seals per engine that go under the spark plug tubes.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by GSXRBOBBY:

Hey Will how much was the rebuild kit and or gasket kit for the Northstar? Are they really $$$$, the valve cover gasket was $40.00 by me.



GSXRBOBBY (robertmanker@yahoo.com) MSG #96, 03-18-2004 01:00 PM
      They were included, I didn't get it, I was able to save mine. I was just wondering the cost so I had an idea if I were to rebuild the motor I got down the road.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #97, 03-18-2004 04:07 PM
      Expect to spend more than $300 on gaskets for this engine. I got head gaskets, valve cover gaskets, spark plug o-rings, front cover gasket, oil pump gasket, pan gasket, intake mani gaskets, exhaust mani gaskets, waterpump gaskets, valve cover bolt grommets, and a few miscellaneous gaskets like the throttle body o-rings for $250. And after that I still needed the "oil manifold" that bolts to the bottom of the lower crank case ($80).



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #98, 03-18-2004 04:08 PM
      Finished time-serting wcapman's block last night. I'm going to send the toolkit back when I get a new bottle of loctite to go with it. The included bottle is feeling pretty light.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #99, 03-19-2004 12:08 AM
      Just got the assembly back from being balanced at the machine shop. It was so far out that he had to call and confirm that the engine was internally balanced. The stock rods are 681 grams, while the Eagle rods are 530 grams. 150 grams lighter per rod times 8 rods is 1200 grams (2.64 lbs) removed from the rotating and reciprocating assemblies. Lots of holes drilled in the counterweights....

Initially at 5,000 RPM the assembly had 580# of out of balance force at the front main and 600# at the rear main. After balancing it was about 1# at each end at 5,000 RPM.



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #100, 03-19-2004 08:35 AM
      Sounds good. I have an extra bottle of the oil here, but I don't have an extra bottle of the loctite, I don't even remember which loctite it takes off the top of my head.

I was curious how the balance was going to come out with the light rods. Now think about throwing some non-stock pistons like Arias in the balance mix and things get pretty interesting.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Finished time-serting wcapman's block last night. I'm going to send the toolkit back when I get a new bottle of loctite to go with it. The included bottle is feeling pretty light.



Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #101, 04-20-2004 11:18 PM
      Any update? That sounds like a pretty nice weight reduction, would go along well with an aluminum flywheel. I wonder what the stock balance specs are on the northstar.

Bryce
88 GT


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #102, 04-21-2004 08:41 PM
      Sorry... I've been swamped with end of semester stuff here... two programming classes and a class and lab on embedded microprocessors and working a semi-real job...

Nothing more's going to happen until after the end of May, however.



Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #103, 06-16-2004 08:59 PM
      So there I was, in the middle of June, and it had been weeks since my last visit to PFF....I wondered to myself, "I wonder how Will's engine is going?"

Bryce
88 GT


bushroot (bushroot@tds.net) MSG #104, 06-16-2004 09:31 PM
      Will, any news on the aluminum flywheel?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #105, 06-17-2004 01:23 PM
      Oops... I haven't posted any info here in quite a while have I?

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/037130-2.html
Aluminum flywheel info at the bottom of that page. Bobby's got the potato(e) for now.


What I had thought were early pistons were in fact late pistons. So my rings didn't fit. However, now that I've torn the engine that was in the car down, I have a set of '95 pistons to be coated and used in the reassembly.

When I pulled the engine apart, it had no ridge at the tops of the bores. That's with 100K on the engine an the last 20K pretty brutal. It DID however have a crack all the way down the outer wall of cylinder #1. Went through the aluminum and the iron. I had lots of coolant in the oil, but the engine hadn't been run long enough to do any damage, so everything should be ok. I cleaned everything out and WD40'd it all and it's ready to go back together... except for the pistons.
So once I get those '95 pistons coated I'll put it back together along with the 3.94 transmission and run a 12.5 timeslip just for you guys.

No that I have a block with a cracked cylinder... I wonder what Golden Eagle would charge for a custom set of eight sleeves....



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #106, 06-17-2004 02:51 PM
      Some pics of the conrods...

Stock rod and Eagle rod:

Stock rod cracked cap:

Edge of the H beam rod:

Piston pin lube hole for full floating pins:



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #107, 06-17-2004 03:04 PM
      I've been corresponding with Allen Cline, who's an engineer with GM HPVO and has done a lot of work on the Northstar.

He's of the opinion that for flat tappet cams are the best for an overhead cam engine. He said that GM OHC engines use roller followers ONLY for gas mileage purposes, and even then they're only worth a fraction of one mpg. ALL GM OHC engines now use the same roller follower setup as the Y2K Northstars: Ecotec, Vortec 4200, High Feature V6...
He said that grinding a roller cam can sometimes lead to having to hollow grind the lobe (curvature of the lobe becomes locally concave rather than convex) which is difficult and expensive.

He also mentioned that there's a Kawasaki solid lifter that should fit the Northstar and reduce valvetrain mass.

Cast iron bar stock IS available... so I may start looking into cutting cam blanks for the early engines.

http://www.geartechnology.com/copage/dura.htm
http://www.dura-bar.com/



Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #108, 08-10-2004 09:31 PM
      Any update?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #109, 08-10-2004 09:46 PM
      Daggonit Nash, stop replying while I'm typing.

The material for the original Northstar cams is Proferal-55. 55 stands for the Rockwell hardness of the finished product. It is a proprietary material that's fairly finicky to cast and comes from just one or two foundrys. I'm talking with people at one of these foundrys to see if they can get me some bar stock. They don't think that a company that specializes in bar stock can handle pro-55 without a lot of oversight.

I got my pistons back from Swain last week.
I just spent a while with liquid wrench and a nylond brush getting the last carbon deposits out of my piston ring grooves. The pistons are soaking in WD-40 right now and I shouldn't have any trouble with the last bits of carbon tomorrow.
After I clean out the last bits of carbon, I'm going to wash and dry the pistons, then match weight them and wash them again to get all the chips off. After that I'll assemble the rings and rods and should be able to put the shortblock together either tomorrow afternoon or Thursday afternoon.

I'll probably bolt the heads on the same day, although the timing drive and the rest of the front of the engine might take another day or two. After that I have a bunch of wiring to work on, but maybe I can get the car into the garage and get started on re-installing the engine late this weekend.

I'm going to be continuing to use the 3.61 transmission until I can get the 3.94 box an ultrasonic treatment. In the mean time, I have several things I'd like to try, including bigger exhaust, a new chip, WRX brake rotors and the Street Dreams knuckles.



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #110, 08-10-2004 10:47 PM
      On the carbon cleaning on the pistons........Next time soak them overnight in carb cleaner. Take them out, wash them with soap and water, they'll look like they just came from the factory. Honest.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Daggonit Nash, stop replying while I'm typing.

The material for the original Northstar cams is Proferal-55. 55 stands for the Rockwell hardness of the finished product. It is a proprietary material that's fairly finicky to cast and comes from just one or two foundrys. I'm talking with people at one of these foundrys to see if they can get me some bar stock. They don't think that a company that specializes in bar stock can handle pro-55 without a lot of oversight.

I got my pistons back from Swain last week.
I just spent a while with liquid wrench and a nylond brush getting the last carbon deposits out of my piston ring grooves. The pistons are soaking in WD-40 right now and I shouldn't have any trouble with the last bits of carbon tomorrow.
After I clean out the last bits of carbon, I'm going to wash and dry the pistons, then match weight them and wash them again to get all the chips off. After that I'll assemble the rings and rods and should be able to put the shortblock together either tomorrow afternoon or Thursday afternoon.

I'll probably bolt the heads on the same day, although the timing drive and the rest of the front of the engine might take another day or two. After that I have a bunch of wiring to work on, but maybe I can get the car into the garage and get started on re-installing the engine late this weekend.

I'm going to be continuing to use the 3.61 transmission until I can get the 3.94 box an ultrasonic treatment. In the mean time, I have several things I'd like to try, including bigger exhaust, a new chip, WRX brake rotors and the Street Dreams knuckles.




Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #111, 08-10-2004 11:28 PM
      Sweet. I'll keep that in mind if the WD-40 doesn't do the trick.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #112, 08-13-2004 06:45 PM
      Carb cleaner worked great. Thanks for the tip. <mental note...>

I also cleaned the '96 pistons in it, since they'll have to be clean if I'm going to sell them...

I washed and match weighted the '95 pistons. They weigh within about half a gram of the average weight of the '96 pistons, so the balance should not be affected. The final weight was 406.3 grams each.

Here's a picture:

The early style piston is on the left, while the later style piston is on the right. As you can see, the early piston has a wider top ring land and a wider top ring groove than the later piston. Otherwise they are more or less identical.



Kohburn MSG #113, 08-16-2004 03:04 PM
      bump for favs

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #114, 08-16-2004 04:28 PM
      Been a busy boy the last few days. Pics to follow.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #115, 08-23-2004 10:13 PM
      Engine's back together. Pics:

Assembly notes as they come to me...

If you are using bolt stretch to tighten your rod bolts, do so BEFORE you seal the lower crank case and torque the main bolts. Once the lower crank case is in place you can get a wrench and a rod bolt stretch gauge on only half the rod bolts.

GM sells 6 ml tubes of anaerobic sealant to use on the case halves. I've been told that if you don't use 5 tubes, you haven't used enough. The sealer is actually Loctite 518 and is available in 50 ml tubes and 300 ml cartridges from www.mcmaster.com p/n's 75125A66 and 75125A67 respectively. A 50 ml tube is more than enough to do one Northstar and one Getrag (Getrag case halves require the same sealant). I ran a bead in the groove for the case-half seal, a bead on top of the seal, and one more bead on the aluminum sealing surface itself (I think it was inside the seal groove, but I don't really remember if it was inside or outside). My case half doesn't leak yet. (oil filter adapter did, but that's another story).

There are two different versions of the oil manifold (plate that bolts onto the bottom of the lower crank case to close up oil passages), the windage tray and the oil pump pickup. They don't mix. Must use same version of all three. P/N's are in the manual.

Rear main seal is easy to install even once the engine's together. Goes in with a mallet if you use it carefully. No special tools required. Don't forget to dab RTV on the case-half seam before installing the seal. I forgot to RTV the case halves, but I did have some of the anaerobic goo protruding out. I'm going to be on the watch for main seal leaks, though.

Front main seal is difficult to install without a tool. I abused mine slightly and I halfway expect it to start leaking before long.

Use anaerobic goo on the flywheel bolts. The flywheel bolt holes go all the way through the crank flange and are exposed to whatever the back of the rear main seal is exposed to. use the anaerobic sealant on them to make sure you don't get oil leaking around the bolt heads into your clutch.

I used 25mm long class 10.9 standard head bolts for the flywheel. With washers under the heads, these bolts have about 0.060 clearance to the clutch disk and do not touch the rear main bearing bulkhead. However, if used without washers, these bolts WILL contact the main bearing bulkhead and prevent the engine from turning. They will also feel as though they are torquing properly when this happens. Turn your engine by hand before you install the flywheel and again after you install the flywheel to make sure that it still turns and that the rotational effort has no increased.

USE TIME SERTS. My head bolts torqued flawlessly.Torquing those head bolts is a PITA... they go to 22 ftlbs in sequence, then 60 degrees in sequence, then another 60 degrees in sequence, then a THIRD 60 degrees in sequence.

There are two different crank shafts. One uses a 14mm balancer bolt, the other uses a 16mm balancer bolt. My '95 engine originally used a 16 mm bolt, but the crank I got used a 14mm bolt. I had to gank a bolt from one of the parts engines in the shed out back.

The water manifold uses three different lengths of bolt to attach it. Three long ones, one short one and four medium ones. The three long and one short go through the water manifold into blind tapped holes in the cylinder heads. The four medium length ones go into the block and have some type of sealant on them. Only the two that go into the LEFT BANK need the sealant, as the two that go into the right bank thread into blind tapped holes. I wire brushed the sealant off of the two for the right bank and used anti-seize instead.

I only got three of the required four w/p gaskets, so I had to borrow one from a parts engine. I used RTV on both sides of it since it looked rather rough.

I put three dog turds in the coolant, just like GM recommends. I used orange coolant, even though the block had originally been used with green coolant. I did this just so all of our cars would use the same coolant and we don't have to worry about it.

I think that about wraps up the engine assembly notes that I had. If I think of any more I will post them



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #116, 08-23-2004 10:23 PM
      The rear (black) cam covers have two complete sets of mounts for the coil pack. The engines were installed with the coil pack all the way to the right (toward the pulley end of the engine). However, as you may notice in this picture:

My coil pack is now on the other set of mounts. In addition to making the engine compartment look better (in my humble opinion), this also frees up room for the chassis side of the Fiero dogbone mount, pictured here.

The dogbone mount has been one of the two areas of chassis cutting required to fit a Northstar, but with coil pack relocation, cutting the dog bone mount is not necessary. Cutting it off at least is not necessary. It may still require some slight trimming. While a torque strut may not be entirely necessary with 4 point engine mounting, I think that a soft (poly or rubber) mounted engine should have a damper to control oscillation at low engine speeds in 1st gear. To this end, future Northstar swappers should retain the dogbone mount. It should still be possible to get oil in through the PCV grommet (capped in the above picture), even with the mount in place.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #117, 08-23-2004 10:29 PM
      Once we got the engine to crank, it fired first crank. My heart stopped for about 3 seconds as the valvetrain clattered, then the noise went away and I looked up to see the oil pressure gauge pegged. I had primed the engine, but I had neglected to fill the passage from the oil filter adapter back to the oil pump.

The engine seems to have good power and response (I haven't wound it out yet), but it smokes like a chimney. It blows oil smoke under all operating conditions except moderate or greater throttle. If the car's sitting still and I bring the RPM up, I can generate a smoke screen behind me. I'm going to call Totally Unsealed tomorrow and see what they have to say about it.



Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #118, 08-23-2004 11:18 PM
      Thanks for the update. So, have you fiddled with the clutch and/or flywheel with this fresh engine? Keep us posted.

Bryce
88 GT


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #119, 08-23-2004 11:39 PM
      I had some hydraulic issues with the clutch. I'll post a new topic about that sometime tomorrow.



aaron88 MSG #120, 08-24-2004 04:41 AM
      Is it possible that youíre drawing oil into the intake from the feed tubes on your camshaft cover?

Or maybe you're burning super ritch (blind guss).


Aaron

.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #121, 08-24-2004 08:35 AM
      You mean the PCV system? Already tried it. Capped off the valve and the manifold with no affect on the smoke screen.

It's not rich. Trust me, this is oil smoke.



bryson MSG #122, 08-24-2004 10:42 AM
      Try hooking the PCV valve back up. Especially on a new motor, where oil pressure is high and the rings might not be broken in yet, this could make a difference. My friend's RX7 (different animal, I know) had the same problem because he blocked off the PCV system. He even got a ticket written for "muffler smoke" it was so bad. We made a PCV system for all of $2 and it fixed the problem. Hope this works for you; good luck!
--Bryson


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #123, 08-24-2004 12:37 PM
      The oil smoke is the same with the PCV system hooked up as without.

I found the culprit anyway. At the suggestion of the Total Seal tech I pulled the intake. There was oil on the backs of all the closed intake valves.

I emailed Allen Cline about it. He said that the Cadillac valve stem seals are the best made. Anywhere. Period. However, oil can seep around the OD of the spring seat and the OD of the valve guide and get into the cylinder. He's given me a procedure to use to correct this issue. When I do this (possibly later this week), I will post it here along with pictures and a how-to.



Fiero STS (onesupermech@netscape.net) MSG #124, 08-24-2004 04:06 PM
      Cool, I will be watching for this

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #125, 08-25-2004 11:48 PM
      Allen Cline says that it is highly unlikely that the valve stem seals are causing the oil leak problem, BUT just to be safe I ordered a set of valve stem seals/spring seats (one and the same piece) from CHRF, along with their stiffer valvesprings and lightweight retainers. CHRF actually had a better deal on stem seals than the Caddy dealership at wholesale.

We'll see how things turn out.



Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #126, 08-26-2004 01:16 AM
      Hopefully you figure it out, having a fresh motor act up is one of the most aggrevating things to happen with the car. I think the springs and retainers are a good investment, and plan on getting them myself eventually. Let us know what you figure out, thanks for the update.

Bryce
88 GT


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #127, 08-28-2004 02:00 PM
      Has anyone ever dealt with valve stem seals on this engine? I can't get the first one to budge.

I spent $1.63 on materials to make a tool that replaces half a dozen GM specialty tools to remove the retainers/keepers... but damned if I can't get the stem seals/spring seats to budge.

They move a tiny bit if I touch the side of the spring seat with a tool, but I haven't been able to find/make a tool that can apply any force there. There are holes in the sides of the seals that can be hooked into, but whether I try a hook in one side, the other side, or BOTH, the dam seal won't give a lick.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #128, 08-28-2004 09:43 PM
      I figured it out... they were just REALLY stubborn. Got one head done... Gonna do the other one Sunday night or Monday...

The spring seat part of the stem seal/spring seat pulled off of most of them, leaving the stem seal, which was still a bit onery.

The stock springs are SOO easy to compress compared to the CHRF springs... but then, that's the point, isn't it?

Dropped an exhaust valve into a cylinder, but was able to fish it back out so I didn't have to take that head off.

Got some pics... will post later.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #129, 08-30-2004 10:04 AM
      Got the right bank done Saturday. Didn't take any pics of the procedure itself. Now that I have the procedure down pretty well, I'll take some pics of the other bank when I do it tonight.

Cylinder head with no cams:

This is trying to show the difference between intake and exhaust valve angles:

Close up of the lifter bore:

The oil for the lifter comes in the opening in the bore of the lifter, then runs down the outside of the spring and drains back to the pan. The galleries that feed the lifters are completely separate from the cam bearing oil path. The camshafts are hollow. Oil is supplied at the front cam bearing and goes back through the cams and out through holes in the cam bearing journals to lube the cam bearing surfaces, which are native cylinder head material. There are no cam bearing inserts.

There's a GM tool that is a sleeve to drop into the lifter bores to protect them while working with valve springs and such. My dad and I didn't have that, so we made one out of polyethylene:

The OD of the sleeve is 1.290 +0.000 -0.010, the ID is 1.190 +0.000 -0.020. Yes, that's a 50 thou wall thickness. Since the CHRF retainers have a larger OD than the stock retainers, the GM tool probably wouldn't have worked with them.

This is the stock spring and retainer vs the CHRF spring and retainer.

The stock springs are 53 lbs on the seat and 109 lbs over the nose with the factory cams. That's the L37 springs. The LD8 springs are slightly weaker. The CHRF springs are 100 lbs on the seat and 180 over the nose on the factory cams. The factory retainer weighs 13 grams. The CHRF retainer weighs 18 grams. The lifter weighs 68 grams. Allen Cline told me that there's a Kawasaki solid lifter that will work. I'll research that once I get the car on the road.
The CHRF springs look like a spring and retainer from something else that was the right size and rate to work. If he had wound custom springs, I would have thought he'd have them tapered or behived to use stock retainers or something even smaller. Keeping the 13 gram factory retainer, and changing over to a lighter solid lifter along with a tapered vavle spring would have been an outstanding valvetrain setup. The CHRF springs are still very good, though.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #130, 08-30-2004 01:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Nashco:

Thanks for the update. So, have you fiddled with the clutch and/or flywheel with this fresh engine? Keep us posted.

Bryce
88 GT

I reinstalled it as it was... what fiddling were you thinking of?



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #131, 09-01-2004 10:01 PM
      Ok, got the left bank done.

The procedure to seal the spring seat is this:

remove valvespring and stem seal/spring seat
clean guide and seat area with brake cleaner or lacquer thinner
apply wicking Loctite (Loctite 290) to the base of the valve guide where it goes into the cylinder head. A tiny tiny bit is all it takes to seal the guide
apply a thin coating of RTV to the bottom of the stem seal/spring seat
fill the small holes in the sides of the stem seal/spring seat with RTV
install stem seal/spring seat
reassemble

This is what the valve guide looks like:

Your basic valve guides, except that there are four per bloody cylinder...

This is what the spring seat/stem seals look like outside the car:

They are supposed to be a single unit, like the two on the right. The one on the left is broken. Most of them came apart like that as we were removing them. In this picture you can see the holes that I had to fill with RTV. They are ~3/32"

This is the spring seat with RTV:

This is the best image I could take with my camera. The others are closer but out of focus. The bottom of the spring seat also has a thin coating of RTV on it. This blue RTV is supposed to be able to cure even in the presence of a small amount of oil.

The wicking Loctite is no big deal. It's just a thin green liquid with very little surface tension. You deposit a few drops uphill from the valve guide, the drops run around the guide on both sides and fully encircle it, then continue downhill to the bottom edge of the spring seat area. Allen Cline assured me that this is enough.

Spring seat/stem seal, spring and retainer stack:



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #132, 09-01-2004 10:12 PM
      This is what the lifters look like:

This one has what appears to be a circumferencial crack about 1/8" down from the top of the lifter. Allen Cline assured me that this is also normal. It is the part line between the wear surface of the lifter and the lifter body. The wear surface is friction welded to the body.

This is the bottom of the lifter:

You can see the hole which allows oil inside the lifter. The factory valve lift is greater than the width of the galeries which supply oil to the lifters, so they don't need continuous oil pressure in order to function. Allen Cline said that when they were introduced, they were state of the art.

Oops... I haven't taken a picture of the tool yet... I'll get to that tomorrow.

I almost made a bad mistake... I timed the right bank, then bottoned it up. I replaced the seals and springs on the left bank, then timed it and buttoned it up. I opened the right bank back up to double check something and noticed that the timing marks were way off...
Because the N* has an intermediate timing drive with strange ratios, there are funky things that go on with timing. The crank to intermediate shaft ratio is 7:5 (7 turns of crank to 5 turns of intermediate sprocket). So when you turn the engine a bit (as we did to bring each cylinder in turn to TDC), you'll have to continue to turn it until you've turned it a total of seven times in order to get the timing marks on crank and I-sprocket to line back up. I did this in between timing the right bank and timing the left bank. Anyone know what this means? Turning the crank 7 times turns the cams 3.5 times... so the right bank and left bank would have been 180 degrees out from each other. Good thing I caught that...



Standard (mnendza@gmail.com) MSG #133, 09-02-2004 04:28 AM
      Seem to me that GM DOHC engines have a lot of those fun little quirks..



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #134, 09-02-2004 09:33 PM
     

That's the valvetrain tool. It's a two man operation with a good bit of strength required to compress the valve springs, and a little bit of dexterity to keep the keepers in place while doing it.

Started the engine today after spending most of the day organizing the harness... it still smokes. I'm tired right now, and I'm going to eat and go to bed shortly.



ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #135, 09-02-2004 11:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Started the engine today after spending most of the day organizing the harness... it still smokes. I'm tired right now, and I'm going to eat and go to bed shortly.

Man, sorry to hear that That always seems to happen to me, I work constantly on a project, and it doesn't work. Then I work straight for 1,000 hours, and the moment of truth.... still doesn't work. I'm sure you'll get it figured out after a nice break from it In the meantime..... Do you have the measurements for those springs and retainers? I would LOVE to get my hands on a stock application for those (i.e. CHEAP). I bet they're really easy to find (like 350 SBC ones or something). But need dia/height/wire thickness possibly. Every little bit helps. Gotta get me some of those and redrill the cam sprockets... mmmm

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 09-02-2004).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #136, 09-03-2004 07:44 AM
      You couldn't have asked me that before I put them in, could you?
They're not that expensive from Alan. $150 for 32 springs is not too expensive.



ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #137, 09-03-2004 11:37 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
You couldn't have asked me that before I put them in, could you?
They're not that expensive from Alan. $150 for 32 springs is not too expensive.

No... no I waited until you put them in on purpose

You're right, $300 for springs and retainers isn't expensive, but it is if you can get them for $200 Oh well... I won't be needing them for a long time yet anyways, maybe Alan will get some competition before then and start lowering prices

ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #138, 09-03-2004 11:42 AM
      Maybe I should read this in it's entirety before posting... but did you go for reground cams? Or just want the higher redline?

cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #139, 09-03-2004 12:25 PM
      Hi Will,

bummed to see your having problems after all the work you put into that engine.

i was just curious if you have done a compression check since you first tryed it?

i am racking my brain trying to think of how the oil is getting into the cylinders.

was there any oil film in the intake itself?

is the oil pressure you have now more than when the engine was rebuilt? is there any way the oil from the lifters is still under pressure over the valve seals? can the up and down motion of the valve/lifters act to compress oil through the seals?

i don't know, just thoughts. best of luck.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #140, 09-09-2004 11:49 AM
      If I were going to find valve springs for this engine, I certainly wouldn't use straight springs. I'd find some tapered or behived springs so that I could continue to use the stock retainer (or one even smaller/lighter).

I haven't run a compression check yet. I may do that today. I just took the car for a drive. It had used more than 1 qt of oil in 41 miles before I took it out. It's got a little over 60 on it now, but I didn't check the oil when I got back. I took the intake back off and there was still oil on the backs of the closed intake valves, just not as much as there was before I did the stem seals. It hardly smokes at all until the oil gets good and warm, then it barely stops (only when I'm into the throttle fairly hard climbing a hill in a high gear). It initially doesn't smoke on coast down, but as it heats up it starts to. It always blows a puff as I transition from off throttle through light throttle to heavier throttle.

Sitting in the driveway idling warm, most of the smoke it blows comes out of the rear bank pipe. The front bank pipe hardly blows any, yet the front bank exhaust is hotter. Manually blip the throttle and it will blow smoke out of both pipes, though.



Kohburn MSG #141, 09-09-2004 02:04 PM
      sounds like a lot higher volume of oil than valve stem seals can leak



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #142, 09-09-2004 02:13 PM
      Doesn't it, though?



Kohburn MSG #143, 09-09-2004 02:44 PM
      which reminds me.. feel like splicing a N* wireing harness for me?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #144, 09-09-2004 03:18 PM
      Got $600 handy?

Kohburn MSG #145, 09-09-2004 03:35 PM
      ouch - ;P

which you you recommend?
using the OBD1 ecm or the holley950?

weighing cost to difficulty..

I'm trying to work out my plans before the spring

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #146, 09-09-2004 04:10 PM
      $600 was an off the cuff guess. My harness took about 40 hours, but now that I know what to do and have a well sorted harness to reference, I'm sure I could do it in significantly less time. If you're serious about it, I'd be happy to do it for you.

The question of Caddy PCM vs. Holley Commander basically comes down to the question of stock vs. modified. If you're going to leave your engine stock, the Holley Commander is total and complete overkill, and possibly dangerous to your engine (DO NOT raise the rev limiter on a stock Northstar). If you're going to modify your engine, particularly with ported heads or reground cams, then you'll need the tunability of the Holley, because the Caddy computer, at this time, can not be tuned well.



Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #147, 09-09-2004 08:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


I reinstalled it as it was... what fiddling were you thinking of?

Just any fiddling...I know you've been unhappy with Centerforce in the past, and I thought you were still using the replacement clutch they made for you with the extra straps. I know you've mentioned the hydraulic throwout bearing in the past as well, wasn't sure if you wanted to implement that into your car ever. You've also been active in the aluminum flywheel thread...all this adds up to make me curious if you've changed anything.

Bryce
88 GT


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #148, 09-09-2004 09:41 PM
      Not yet. I will go to the hydraulic throw out bearing when I assemble my 1.02/3.94 gearbox. The remaining obstacle for that is getting the gears and case an ultrasonic treatment (actually, finding money for it, not the treatment itself).

As far as the clutch goes, I found I had a slight leak around one of my flywheel bolts. I sealed the bolts better this time. We'll see how much better the clutch acts under pressure this time around.

As far as what I'm eventually going to do for a clutch setup... I'll just say that I'm cooking up something very interesting...



wetpoop (robertbiddinger@yahoo.com) MSG #149, 09-09-2004 11:19 PM
      I probably shouldn't even post this, I only read that last page of this post an not sure what year engine you are using, or if you did your compression check yet. Anyway, I know that later north star engines have been know to consume oil and the fix has been to clean the piston rings. this is done by pulling the plugs and filling the cylinders with de-carb and letting it sit over-night. I think your problem may require something more than de-carbing the rings though. It seems you have a signifigant oil burning issue. Anyway I am just trying to help. If you do decide to try this de-carb, make sure you get all the de-carb fluid out of the cylinder before starting the motor. It is also very important to change the oil prior to starting the engine. And of course after doing this procedure there will be some visible smoke until all the carbon has burned off. Anyway I wish you the best.

ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #150, 09-09-2004 11:26 PM
      f*** the compression test... you need to do a leakdown test. I'm strongly leaning towards bad ring sealing... Don't even need any fancy equipment... just your compressor and a cylinder air tool (didn't you already have one for changing to springs w/o removing the head?) Anywho, I bet you'll hear lots of hissing out the pcv grommet (since the oil fill's on the wrong side ) And there's no chance at all you got the wrong valve seals?

Also, FWIW -

You could have a leaking fuel pressure regulator diaphragm (one of the achilles heels of the N*)... These typically show up as white or black smoke out the exhaust (depending on how bad). Easiest way to check is to pull the vacuum line off it, and see if fuel is in the line. That's all I got for now...

ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #151, 09-09-2004 11:29 PM
      his pistons are clean enough to eat off of



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #152, 09-09-2004 11:42 PM
      Will,

Just off the top of my head, did you talk to Sealed Power about the proper honing of the cylinders for their rings? They were pretty admant to me about grit and proper pattern to make sure the rings seal. Also, did you use their ring sealing compound on assembly?

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

$600 was an off the cuff guess. My harness took about 40 hours, but now that I know what to do and have a well sorted harness to reference, I'm sure I could do it in significantly less time. If you're serious about it, I'd be happy to do it for you.

The question of Caddy PCM vs. Holley Commander basically comes down to the question of stock vs. modified. If you're going to leave your engine stock, the Holley Commander is total and complete overkill, and possibly dangerous to your engine (DO NOT raise the rev limiter on a stock Northstar). If you're going to modify your engine, particularly with ported heads or reground cams, then you'll need the tunability of the Holley, because the Caddy computer, at this time, can not be tuned well.




Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #153, 09-09-2004 11:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ryan.hess:

Maybe I should read this in it's entirety before posting... but did you go for reground cams? Or just want the higher redline?

Just wanted to not crack a lifter if I ever pull off a 3-2 upshift.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #154, 09-10-2004 08:12 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by jstricker:

Will,

Just off the top of my head, did you talk to Sealed Power about the proper honing of the cylinders for their rings? They were pretty admant to me about grit and proper pattern to make sure the rings seal. Also, did you use their ring sealing compound on assembly?

John Stricker

When I was ordering I don't recall being advised of proper honing. Rest assured that I've been on the phone with them a few times since the engine started smoking.
However, there is still oil on the backs of the intake valves. Until that's straightened out, I can't say that rings or honing are responsible for anything.

Now when I say "oil on the backs of the intakes", I don't mean that the intakes are a little damp, or maybe glistening. I mean and have always meant PUDDLES of oil on the backs of the intakes. As much as half a teaspoon per valve. Some of the puddles are deep enough to almost get up to the valve stem. Yes, even after the valve stem seal procedure. After a drive with new stem seals and the PCV capped off... STILL oil standing on the backs of the intake valves.



Kohburn MSG #155, 09-10-2004 08:17 AM
      I'm trying to visualize the northstar heads and intake design and oil passages for any clues as to other potential leaks.. i'd say maybe some horrible blowby throwing oil through the intake, but you blocked off the pvc...

is it on all valves? or only some?



sanderson (sanderson23@grandecom.net) MSG #156, 09-10-2004 09:37 AM
      Will,

I feel your pain. Is there a pretty good oil coating in the intake manifold as well or are you only finding it on top of the valves?

If it's in the intake manifold have you chased down every line that goes to the intake. For example on an Iron Duke you can plug the PCV but there's a valve cover vent that ties into the bottom of the air cleaner inlet snorkel that will still blow oil into the intake if the rings are bad.

Out of curiosity how's the manifold vacuum at idle.

jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #157, 09-11-2004 04:31 PM
      The oiling system on the Northstar is done through passages at the front of each head and then distributed through hollow camshafts. Other than by the valve stems, there really isn't anywhere for the oil to get to the intake side. The intake manifold at no point is exposed to the crankcase. If Will has disconncected both the PVC hose and the breather hose from the intake system, the ONLY place oil can get on the backside of the valves is by the valve stems.

With new seals, something is definitely amiss in the upper cylinder head area on Will's motor, it's just a matter of figuring out what. One wild thought that occured to me, is the oil draining back fast enough? If the seals are sitting under a sea of oil, then no valve stem seal is going to control that. But that doesn't make much sense to me since Will says it's smoking from both banks and while one side could certainly have drain back passages plugged, the odds of both being plugged, and how they got that way, is a pretty long stretch.

As much as I hate to even think it for Will's sake, I'm afraid the heads are coming back off. Something's wrong here (understatement of the year).

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by sanderson:

Will,

I feel your pain. Is there a pretty good oil coating in the intake manifold as well or are you only finding it on top of the valves?

If it's in the intake manifold have you chased down every line that goes to the intake. For example on an Iron Duke you can plug the PCV but there's a valve cover vent that ties into the bottom of the air cleaner inlet snorkel that will still blow oil into the intake if the rings are bad.

Out of curiosity how's the manifold vacuum at idle.



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #158, 09-11-2004 04:33 PM
      You say PCV "capped off". Are you REALLY capping it off, or just disconnecting it and leaving it open to the air? If you're really capping it off, you're going to build up some serious crankcase pressure very quickly. I presume you mean it's Capped Off on the intake side and not the breather side.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


When I was ordering I don't recall being advised of proper honing. Rest assured that I've been on the phone with them a few times since the engine started smoking.
However, there is still oil on the backs of the intake valves. Until that's straightened out, I can't say that rings or honing are responsible for anything.

Now when I say "oil on the backs of the intakes", I don't mean that the intakes are a little damp, or maybe glistening. I mean and have always meant PUDDLES of oil on the backs of the intakes. As much as half a teaspoon per valve. Some of the puddles are deep enough to almost get up to the valve stem. Yes, even after the valve stem seal procedure. After a drive with new stem seals and the PCV capped off... STILL oil standing on the backs of the intake valves.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #159, 09-11-2004 09:29 PM
      For the PCV, the manifold and corresponding valve cover connection were been capped. I left the other side of the PCV system hooked up. I know I need to do things differently... I'll see what I can rig up for a trap to hook both sides of the PCV system to, so that I can eliminate it as an oil path entirely.

It occurs to me that with the cam cover connection capped, blow by from un-seated rings might pressurize the crank case and blow oil out the other cam cover connection and into the throttle body, since that side of the PCV connects to the intake ducting immediately upstream of the TB.

Speaking of ring seating... I just did a compression test.
#1: 200
#2: 190
#3: 195
#4: 192
#5: 202
#6: 200
#7: 200
#8: 200
The manual calls for 140-170 psi.
Mind you, this was a cold compression test (I'm not wild about doing a hot compression test), and the car doesn't smoke nearly as much cold as it does hot.

I forgot to examine the plugs on the front bank, but of the plugs on the rear bank, #7 was black, #5 looked normal, and #3 and #1 were wet with oil.



cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #160, 09-11-2004 11:13 PM
      Will,

is there any way to block the oil return from the lifters to the block such as the head gasket holes not lining up or some sort of sealer? could you run the engine with the rear cover off to see if the oil is backing up from the lifter/spring bores? i don't know how much oil this engine would spew out, i have only built and adjusted 1970's engines.

edit: one other thought, is there any chance that oil is pooled up in the exhaust and is smoking when hot?

[This message has been edited by cptsnoopy (edited 09-11-2004).]

jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #161, 09-12-2004 12:40 AM
      Will,

What occurred to you is exactly right. Just pull the tube off of the air inlet tube (the vent side of the PCV system) and pull the PCV valve out of the valve cover. The way it's smoking you shouldn't have to even drive it like this to be able to tell something. See how much blow by you have, although with your compression readings I can't believe it's much.

My gut instinct is that it's not a PCV problem but if it is, you'll clearly see the blow-by coming out the PCV and vent openings when you run it like this.

On our 3.4 that had the high oil consumption (and I know you don't want to hear this) it was a valve guide issue on the intake side. I've never seen anything like it before but the valves and guides (which had less than 20,000 miles on them) looked like they had 200,000 miles on them. The exhausts weren't quite so bad. It took new guides and valves to cure the problem. We also went through a valve stem seal replacement and like you, it helped some, but not alot.

This sucks, it makes me depressed for you just thinking about it.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

For the PCV, the manifold and corresponding valve cover connection were been capped. I left the other side of the PCV system hooked up. I know I need to do things differently... I'll see what I can rig up for a trap to hook both sides of the PCV system to, so that I can eliminate it as an oil path entirely.

It occurs to me that with the cam cover connection capped, blow by from un-seated rings might pressurize the crank case and blow oil out the other cam cover connection and into the throttle body, since that side of the PCV connects to the intake ducting immediately upstream of the TB.



sanderson (sanderson23@grandecom.net) MSG #162, 09-12-2004 10:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


It occurs to me that with the cam cover connection capped, blow by from un-seated rings might pressurize the crank case and blow oil out the other cam cover connection and into the throttle body, since that side of the PCV connects to the intake ducting immediately upstream of the TB.


My last Iron Duke did this. Even with the PCV running there was so much blowby it would blow oil out a similar breather on the valve cover into the air cleaner. There was enough volume to run a good size air tool.

On my new Quad 4 when I disconnect the crankcase breather (on the timing chain cover) from the oil separator suction there only a wisp coming from the crankcase. I'd think you could do the same. Plug the PCV and let the other vent go to atmosphere and see what comes out. My bet is there isn't much there given your compression numbers.

The Punisher (@hotmail.com) MSG #163, 09-12-2004 11:20 PM
      I am thinking either too much crankcase pressure or the valve seals are still leaking.

I say vent the pcv to atnmosphere. See what happens.

or take the valve covers back off and you might need to put all new seals in again.

SH



jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #164, 09-13-2004 05:33 AM
      You can't run a Northstar without valve covers, for all practical purposes. The water pump drive shaft comes out the back of one of them and they seal the openings for the spark plugs, unless I misunderstood your mention of taking the valve covers off.

Personally, I'm thinking lose valve guides/valve stems that's taking out the seals, but Will should find out soon enough.

John Stricker


 
quote
Originally posted by The Punisher:

I am thinking either too much crankcase pressure or the valve seals are still leaking.

I say vent the pcv to atnmosphere. See what happens.

or take the valve covers back off and you might need to put all new seals in again.

SH



tstroud MSG #165, 09-13-2004 07:41 AM
      Sorry if I missed this in the earlier postings but....
Did you put the plastic sleeve over the valve stems when you installed the valve seals? It is used to protect the seals from being cut by the retainer groove in the valve stem.
If you didn't then you may have damaged the seals the second you installed them.
Second, when you had your intake manifold off did you look to see if there was any oil in the ports? If so how far up did it go?


Kohburn MSG #166, 09-13-2004 09:10 AM
      only thing i can think is causing it at this point is valve guides..

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #167, 09-13-2004 05:28 PM
      I have to be in Norfolk for 2 weeks for Navy stuff... Fiero's going on hold for a little while.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #168, 09-22-2004 04:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Turning the crank 7 times turns the cams 3.5 times... so the right bank and left bank would have been 180 degrees out from each other.

After thinking about it a bit, I realized that because the N* uses waste spark ignition, it probably would have run with one bank 180 degrees out from the other... It just would have run like 4 Harley's behind me all the time. With the banks our of phase like that, it would have been like a collection of 4 V-twins all the time.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #169, 10-02-2004 10:49 AM
      Progress (I think)...

When warm the car doesn't smoke on heavy throttle, smokes somewhat on coast down/high vacuum conditions and blows LOTS of smoke at light throttle/tip in from coast down/blipping throttle from idle...

Allen Cline thinks that the oil rings are not working correctly. He says that there's enough reversion in the intake port at light throttle to throw oil up into the intake runners where it flows back down and pools on the intake valves after I shut the engine down.

This generally jives with what I see... as the times when it's smoking worst are the times when the rings are unloaded, rather than high demand on the valve stem seals.

My dad remembers reading an article in a recent car magazine that didn't have much faith in Total Seal oil rings... He's looking for it now.

I will also shortly be put in touch with a guy in the Miata community who's done 3 or 4 engine builds with TS rings and they all smoked... I'm going to compare signs and symptoms with him to see what we can decide is up.

So if my suspicions are confirmed, I may end up tearing the engine back down, ditching the TS oil rings and replacing them with GM oil rings, while keeping the TS top and 2nd rings...



ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #170, 10-02-2004 11:11 AM
      I have only heard bad things about TS/gapless rings... Hope you get it figured out....

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #171, 10-02-2004 11:19 AM
      The manual calls for 140-170 psi cranking pressure and my engine has 190-200.... I think the gapless ring concept works... just needs some ironing out.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #172, 10-13-2004 01:34 PM
      Allen Cline is of the opinion that there's enough reversion at part throttle to lift oil into the intake ports, where it would pool on top of the valves at shut down. This is what I was experiencing. I tried shutting the engine down at WOT once and after pulling the intake found no oil on the valves, however after a shut down from idle the valves would have half a teaspoon or so of oil on the back of EACH one.

Talked with Total Seal and the machine shop who originally honed my block...
The block was honed with 400 grit stones, almost certainly silicon carbide. This does not work well with the Northstar as the hard silicon carbide stone against the hard cylinder liner produces a very shallow pattern. TS recommended an aluminum oxide stone not finer than 280 grit.

In an amusing note, the Haynes manual for overhauling Chevies said to hone the block to 400 grit for cast or moly rings, but not finer than 280 for chrome faced rings. The TS rings are chrome faced. So even Haynes says it's wrong... <chuckle>

The plant where my dad works has a profilometer which we can use to measure the cylider finish on the bores. That way I will have hard data to use in working with TS to get this engine to seal.

I'll be pulling the engine and tearing it back down in the next couple of weeks.



ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #173, 10-13-2004 03:48 PM
      Sounds like you got a winner!

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
So even Haynes says it's wrong... <chuckle>



aaronrus (stickpony@gmail.com) MSG #174, 10-14-2004 01:20 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Jstricker: what TSB's will I need to properly overhaul a '95 engine?

Thoughts?


i have a question for you.. is this a VIN 9 or a VIN Y ? if its a VIN Y, i have a set of VIN 9 heads and camshafts for sale, i'll sell them to you dirt cheap, as i need to get them out of my garage to make room for some 4.9L heads to work on for my 4.9L caddy. they are out of a 2000 seville STS, and only have 16K miles on them.

[This message has been edited by aaronrus (edited 10-14-2004).]

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #175, 10-14-2004 03:26 PM
      Very interesting Will. Dang... a profilometer, now that's blingin' measurement equipment! This is definitely one hell of a troubleshooting session you've been through so far, good research and good contacts!

Bryce
88 GT


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #176, 10-15-2004 09:06 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by aaronrus:

i have a question for you.. is this a VIN 9 or a VIN Y ? if its a VIN Y, i have a set of VIN 9 heads and camshafts for sale, i'll sell them to you dirt cheap, as i need to get them out of my garage to make room for some 4.9L heads to work on for my 4.9L caddy. they are out of a 2000 seville STS, and only have 16K miles on them.

Are you still trying to sell those heads?
I'll stick with the flat tappet valvetrain until I can get my hands on a VVT engine...


Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #177, 11-02-2004 05:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I'll be pulling the engine and tearing it back down in the next couple of weeks.

Your friendly neighborhood pest here to see if you've figured anything out yet....yes/no? Thanks.

Bryce
88 GT


ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #178, 11-02-2004 05:20 PM
      Yeah, did you win yet?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #179, 11-02-2004 08:29 PM
      No work was done on the Fiero since Friday 22 OCT, as I was on a brief float with the Kearsarge last week.
However, today I got the engine down on the ground and will tear it down tomorrow and get the cylinder surface finish checked and maybe get it rehoned by the weekend...

<mental note: call Total Seal and get the P/N of that stone you it can be ordered tomorrow>
<mental note 2: find out about reusing N* head bolts with time serts wrt difference between $50 each GM gaskets with bolts and $30 fel pro gaskets without>
<mental note 3: order said gaskets in addition to new front and rear main seals and new w/p gasket which was missing last time>
<mental note 4: order more Loctite 518 (anaerobic goo for case half seal)>



ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #180, 11-02-2004 08:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
<mental note 2: find out about reusing N* head bolts with time serts wrt difference between $50 each GM gaskets with bolts and $30 fel pro gaskets without>

The N* head bolts need to be replaced if the head(s) are ever removed. That's why GM includes them in their gasket kits. Is saving $20 worth having do do this yet again?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #181, 11-02-2004 09:16 PM
      Saving $40...

GM cautions to not reuse the head bolts because they have a sealant on them that keeps the coolant out of the thread interface. This extends the life of the aluminum head bolt threads in the block. However, my block has time-serts in all 20 head bolt holes. There are no longer aluminum threads to worry about.
Is the sealant still necessary?

From a fatigue standpoint, the head bolts are reuseable. The reason GM says to not reuse them is only a function of the thread sealant.

Or maybe I'll just not worry about it an spend an extra $200 on ARP head studs...



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #182, 11-04-2004 10:04 AM
      Got the engine apart last night. I've heard that you should be able to feel a good hone pattern by running your fingernail over it, more so in the way up than down. I didn't feel much of anything, but I still have oil on my cylinder walls.

Should be able to get ahold of the profilometer in the next couple of days. Anyone know of a GOOD machine shop anywhere in VA or even MD or southern PA that would be willing to work with me extensively to get my block honed correctly? I'd supply the stones I'd want them to use, and I'd double check their work directly with a profilometer.



Kohburn MSG #183, 11-04-2004 10:16 AM
      didn't realize you were so close to home..
i can't really recommend a machine shop - it usually depends on the specific employee of the shop for the service..

on a side note - you gonna make it to MIR sunday? "baltimore area fieros"
trying to get a good showing of fiero people - lildevil and soulcrusher will be there.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #184, 11-04-2004 03:19 PM
      Had no plans to go. Going to a Fiero event without a Fiero is just going to give me Fiero jones in addition to my current V8 jones and stick-shift jones.

Got a "maybe"... Talked to a guy who does two ring Miata engines with TS rings... he said that 4.6 Ford mod-motors will exhibit oil consumption similar to mine if the engine is not honed with a torque plate. Since we can make a torque plate here, there's no real reason not to try that. I'll talk to AJ about it...

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #185, 11-04-2004 03:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Since we can make a torque plate here, there's no real reason not to try that.

Profilometers...and torque plates...and hone stones, oh my! It's pretty obvious you're not screwing around. I'll be interested to see what comes out of all this, thanks for documenting so much of your leg work, it'll come in handy to many of us in the future.

Bryce
88 GT


m0sh_man (macantley@suddenlink.net) MSG #186, 11-04-2004 03:44 PM
      damn will your looking in PA, MD, or VA, i thought you were over on the west coast.... what part of the country are you from?

i can ask a friend who works at a local machine shop, but not sure if your that close to charleston WV.

matthew

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #187, 11-04-2004 07:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Nashco:
Profilometers...and torque plates...and hone stones, oh my! It's pretty obvious you're not screwing around.

I don't F#$% around when my S@!# doesn't work...


 
quote
Originally posted by m0sh_man:

damn will your looking in PA, MD, or VA, i thought you were over on the west coast.... what part of the country are you from?

i can ask a friend who works at a local machine shop, but not sure if your that close to charleston WV.

matthew

I'm in NW VA. 1/2 hour from Harrisonburg/JMU

Bill Strong (wdstrongjr@racingstrong.com) MSG #188, 11-08-2004 02:28 AM
      Company:
HP Works
Location:
Colonial Beach, VA USA
Phone: (804) 214-9063
Fax: (804) 224-6144
Email: hpworks@netstar-usa.com

These guys are top notch... They have been building high HP race engines for years. He even lets me use some of the machines...



Bill Strong (wdstrongjr@racingstrong.com) MSG #189, 11-08-2004 02:30 AM
      http://www.hpworks.com/

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #190, 11-08-2004 08:09 AM
      Thanks. I'll see if they want to take it on...


I talked to Alan Johnson and he said that the torque plate wasn't necessary, but that it couldn't hurt. The first shop he had hone his blocks used a torque plate, but had a tendency of stripping head bolt threads and not telling him about it. The next shop he got to hone things doesn't use a torque plate and he hasn't had problems.


ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #191, 11-08-2004 05:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
There are no longer aluminum threads to worry about.
Is the sealant still necessary?

I have no idea. Everyone I've talked to has said to get the headgasket/bolt set from GM, no matter what... And (of course) to use timeserts. In summary, I have no idea what the f*** I'm talking about... but if I were rebuilding it, I'd use the new bolts that come in the GM kit.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #192, 11-08-2004 05:27 PM
      Since I asked that, I've been in touch with Allen Cline, and he says that the sealer is a Loctite product with two purposes... high pressure lubricant to lubricate threads as the bolt is being torqued and thread locker to prevent the bolts from backing out. Apparently aluminum blocks (or maybe just threads, don't know which) can spontaneously back out, which is why the lube/locker stuff is there. The head bolt cavities are sealed by the head gasket, so there shouldn't be any coolant in them anyway.

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #193, 11-16-2004 08:30 PM
      Any luck finding a competent machine shop? (read: bump)

Bryce
88 GT


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #194, 11-24-2004 06:45 PM
      Honing stones got here the other day... possible issues with the profilometer not giving consistent readings

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #195, 12-13-2004 01:47 PM
      Any progress Will? I imagine things are slow around the holidays, just curious.

Bryce
88 GT


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #196, 12-13-2004 06:03 PM
      More soon...

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #197, 12-19-2004 12:24 AM
      Finally made sense of something I had been noticing every now and then... shoulda looked harder at it a long time ago.

My bores are patchy. I had been dismissing it as a trick of the light until recently.
Anyway, the bores have bright and dark patches. The dark patches are were the cylinders have been burnished... that's partially burnished... So the shop that honed it really screwed the pooch, only I didn't know what to look for until some time later.
Upon closer inspection, catching the light on the bores showed me that the dark patches are much smoother/shinier than the bright patches.

Now that I have a concrete image of what's wrong, fixing it is much easier.
This is why the profilometer was giving inconsistent results. The surface finish actually is that inconsistent.

Also put in a drawing for a torque plate. That should be lasered out next week, after which I'll have to drill the head bolt holes and surface grind it flat. This particular laser is somewhat old and can't do a good job cutting a hole smaller than the thickness of the material it's cutting, which will be 3/4" in this case.

So once the torque plate is done, I'll take it to a shop that's been recommended to me by multiple friends and get them to hone it with the stones I bought.

Once that's done, the block will have enough clearance for forged pistons, so I'll have to make a decision. That decision will be partially based on the outcome of my interview with Sunoco next week.

ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #198, 12-19-2004 02:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Once that's done, the block will have enough clearance for forged pistons, so I'll have to make a decision.

Uh oh!

 
quote

That decision will be partially based on the outcome of my interview with Sunoco next week.

Double uh oh! Good luck!


aaron88 MSG #199, 12-19-2004 08:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Progress (I think)...

When warm the car doesn't smoke on heavy throttle, smokes somewhat on coast down/high vacuum conditions and blows LOTS of smoke at light throttle/tip in from coast down/blipping throttle from idle...

Allen Cline thinks that the oil rings are not working correctly. He says that there's enough reversion in the intake port at light throttle to throw oil up into the intake runners where it flows back down and pools on the intake valves after I shut the engine down...


Iíve heard of something like this before. I remember reading about Corvette owners that were complaining of high oil consumption. After some investigation it was found that at high rpm under light throttle conditions oil was seeping past the rings and getting burned. If I recall correctly there was a replacement ring designed (or found) to fix the problem.

From reading your posts it doesnít seem likely that this was exclusively your problem but it may be something to double check. I canít remember where I read the article, but I did find this, that collaborates my story.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/showthread.php?t=960313

Aaron

.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #200, 12-19-2004 11:18 PM
      Yes, I remember that. Under conditions of high ring loading (heavy throttle or engine braking), the rings were fine, but at high RPM, light load conditions when there wasn't much ring loading, the rings would flutter and allow oil past. GM didn't pick that up because no sane person drives in such a way as to spend a lot of time at high RPM light load conditions...

I'm pretty sure my problem was all in my bores. I'll try to get a picture of what I am talking about later this week. It may not show up well in a picture, though.

Fiero STS (onesupermech@netscape.net) MSG #201, 12-20-2004 10:49 AM
      Some info on N* head bolts.

Contrary to popular belief the Northstar head bolts are really not torque to yield fasteners..... The bolts will stretch very slightly (permanently) but they are good for probably 10 rundowns before any perceptable yield would occur that would render them unusable.

In fact, new bolts are run down and then loosened in the plant in the normal operation tensioning the head bolts. The pre-tensioning step actuall subjects the bolts to more tension then the final tightening step.... This is done to burnish the threads in the block as they have never seen bolts in them before the heads are installed and the head bolts tensioned. The aluminum threads need to be "worked" once before the final tensioning step so the head bolts are run down, loosened and then re-tensioned. If you started with new bolts on your reassembly then you have only done the equivalent of the first pre-tensioning step on the bolts. Use them, they will be fine. Re-using a new bolt that has been run down one time is not the same as re-using a bolt that was in the engine for 100K.......

The instructions to not reuse old head bolts is primarily because the bolts when new have a special microencapsulated coating on the threads and under the head of the bolt. The coatings act as a high pressure lubricant during tensioning and then a thread locker once installed. On a simple run down and loosening without running the engine the bolts can be "used" several times. Once the bolts see a lot of time and thermal cycling in the engine the coatings are rendered unusable again so the bolts have to be replaced as there is no repeatable means or reapplying the special coatings in the field.

If you simply installed the head with a new gasket and new bolts and pulled a timesert out and dissassembled the head the bolts are fine to use again and so is the gasket. If the head gasket was not used in the running engine and subjected to any thermal cycles it is fine. The gasket will compress permanently somewhat when torqued into place....that does not ruin it. I have seen LOTS of head gaskets run down and loosened and re-run down and continued on test fine. As long as the gasket did not stick and tear when dissassembly the gasket is perfectly fine to re-use. It has just been "pre-compressed" much as it is done in the above mentioned pre-tensioning step to condition the head bolt holes. That is done with the gasket in place so the gasket sees the compression and then relaxation in production.

With the compacted graphite gaskets it is sometimes necessary to pre-compress the gasket and even heat it during compression prior to installing it into the engine. So, simply compressing the gasket to the installed load does not hurt or ruin it. If, however, the gasket is held under load and thermal cycled in the engine it will not be reusable. That is because the thermal cycling subjects the gasket to even more load that would cause it to be deformed beyond recovery if relaxed.


At least you can reuse the new gasket and bolts with no concerns.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #202, 12-20-2004 11:44 AM
      I know I can reuse the bolts and that the stuff is lubricant/locker. Already had that conversation with Allen Cline. Thanks for the additional info, though.
As I was tightening the head bolts, the coating under the heads squished out between the head and the washer. When I tore the engine down I found shreds of it in the oil pickup screen. I was not a happy camper One more thing to be careful of on reassembly... pick all the shreds of coating off the bolt heads as I tighten them down...

This engine has been run, just not very much. A total of about 100 miles in 15-20 minute test drives. How does that affect the bolt coatings?

The head gaskets did tear when I tore them down. They also had some oil creep in with them, so I wouldn't have wanted to reuse them anyway.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #203, 02-12-2005 10:24 AM
     


Images of the piss poor hone job that the first shop did... Don't take your Northstars to 9 Mile Machine in Pensacola, FL
Now that I know what I'm looking at, I'm amazed that he let this block out the door. Certainly not the way to give himself a good reputation...

Now it's at a GOOD shop. Paul Mauzy Engines in Timberville, VA. Mauzy's shop was a hell of a lot better than Clint's in FL... Mauzy had 15K-35K engines sitting on palettes waiting... Aluminum big block with Enderle tunnel ram, pair of BIG quads, lots of nitrous, dizzy driven by cog belt off the front of the cam, dry sump lubrication...
Aluminum Hemi with a giant blower on top... the teflon strips on the rotors were so snug you could barely turn it by hand...
Aluminum BBC block on the stand with less than 3/8" between cylinders...

Gonna go on a ship for two weeks and the block should be done when I get back. Paul is pretty busy this time of year as everyone's building their engines for the upcoming season.

Since the block's gonna have two hone jobs done on it, the bores will be out of spec for the stock pistons I was planning to use. I'm shipping one of my stockers to Ross for them to use as a model to make a set of custom pistons for me. When the block is done, I'll email them the final bore spec and they'll cut the pistons to suit.
After that, yet another set of pistons will ship off to Swain...
Once the pistons are back from Swain, I'll go back to Paul for rebalancing the assembly. I have fresh crank to use because I'd like to try something....
Conventional balancing technique is to drill radially into the counterweights to remove material. However, grinding or turning material from the OD of the counterweight will remove less material, but have a greater effect on moment of inertia of the crankshaft. Paul Vanderley did this for Wcapman's crank, and I'm going to see if Paul Mauzy can do it for my crank. He doesn't normally balance this way but he's willing to try it. Maybe we'll both learn something.


Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #204, 02-12-2005 11:29 AM
      Dang, that is a crummy hone job! Thanks for the update. Sounds like $$$ are adding up on this engine!

Bryce
88 GT


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #205, 02-12-2005 01:15 PM
      There's never time to do it right in the first place, but there's always time to redo it right...

boristheblade MSG #206, 02-12-2005 03:01 PM
      Wow, even our highschool shop did a better hone job than that.
Did you atleast go and try to get your money back?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #207, 02-12-2005 03:47 PM
      not 900 miles away...

JazzMan (jazzman@fierocentral.com) MSG #208, 02-12-2005 03:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

not 900 miles away...

Send them a registered letter showing your documentation of the problems, explain that you will be filing a small claims action against them, that you are giving them this one, limited time only, offer to reimburse you for what you paid them.

Total cost? A couple of bucks postage plus an hour to type up a letter. Upside is they cut you a check for the full amount, worst case is you get nothing and you're only out a cuople of bucks and an hour of your time.

Just a thought...

JazzMan

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #209, 03-10-2005 02:48 PM
     

Much Gooder.

Finished bore size ended up at 3.667. Ross has this information and should have my pistons ready by the end of the month.

If you're in the area, Mauzy Engines is a GOOD shop.
http://www.mauzyengines.com/

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-10-2005).]

Kohburn MSG #210, 03-10-2005 03:07 PM
      big change fromt he first shop..

you up in VA ? if so I'm gonna hafta check out this car once you get it all together

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #211, 03-10-2005 03:12 PM
      I'm near Harrisonburg/JMU. I make it down to Norfolk at least once a month.
Shouldn't be any problem to meet up.


Kohburn MSG #212, 03-10-2005 03:24 PM
      guess you are about a 2-3 hour drive from MIR then.. would be a blast to have a northstar fiero join the maryland group at MIR sometime this summer - we'll have some 3.8sc atleast one 3.4tdc but i don't think any v8's

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #213, 03-22-2005 02:59 PM
      I need to give some more credit. As I may have mentioned before, I've been talking regularly with Kevin at Total Seal. Our conversations led me to the research and body of knowledge I have now. Paul Mauzy also spoke with him regularly when honing blocks, and of course more when honing my block.

So I need to give Kevin and Total Seal a shout out. If you ever have problems with TS rings, give him a call.

bryson MSG #214, 04-06-2005 03:34 PM
      bump to add to favorites

WAWUZAT (hoowasat@cox.net) MSG #215, 04-06-2005 09:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I'm near Harrisonburg/JMU. I make it down to Norfolk at least once a month. Shouldn't be any problem to meet up.

Small world. My sister was valedictorian there when it was known as James Madison College. I've gone skiing a few times at Mass-o-nuthin'. I work across the river from Norfolk building flat-tops and submarines at NGNN (formerly NNS).

BTW, I'll be contacting you soon about the 4.6L PCM. I've started studying the factory service manuals, and there are obviously several input circuits which can be ignored (like cruise control), but there are others for which I'll have questions.

Thanks,
Ken


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #216, 04-06-2005 11:50 PM
      My mom went there as well... also when it was Madison College.

WAWUZAT (hoowasat@cox.net) MSG #217, 04-07-2005 06:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by WAWUZAT:
BTW, I'll be contacting you soon about the 4.6L PCM. I've started studying the factory service manuals, and there are obviously several input circuits which can be ignored (like cruise control), but there are others for which I'll have questions.

When I said the cruise control (CC) input feeds could be ignored, I failed to mention the reason why. I do not currently have CC, and do not intend to have it after the swap. I imagine someone who has already CC would be quite interested in maintaining those input feeds to the Caddy's PCM.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #218, 04-07-2005 06:44 PM
     

After seeing this warning

you find that they are wrapped like this



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #219, 04-07-2005 06:52 PM
     

Notice that the oil holes have been deburred.

Have pictures of crown and comparison, but they were blurry and I already shipped the pistons to bryson for coating, so I can't take more until the middle of next week.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #220, 04-07-2005 06:55 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by WAWUZAT:
When I said the cruise control (CC) input feeds could be ignored, I failed to mention the reason why. I do not currently have CC, and do not intend to have it after the swap. I imagine someone who has already CC would be quite interested in maintaining those input feeds to the Caddy's PCM.

Stock Fiero cruise control can drive the vaccum Caddy cruise servo. Not sure when the Caddies went to electric cruise.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #221, 05-27-2005 10:31 AM
      Ported my block last night. Pictures to follow.

Deabionni (deabionni@gmail.com) MSG #222, 05-27-2005 01:05 PM
      I love this thread! Great build-up, and please keep those pics coming!

PBJ (pbjt@sympatico.ca) MSG #223, 05-27-2005 01:25 PM
      Very nice. Thanks for the update.

Pete

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #224, 06-04-2005 08:21 PM
      bump

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #225, 06-04-2005 09:21 PM
      This is the second time tonight I've written this. WTF, Cliff? I'm doing it in notepad first so it doesn't get eaten by the post monster. I clicked submit a couple of times and even got the "can't submit a post les than 60 seconds after your last" screen.... which I WOULD THINK would mean that the post went through with the first click... but IT'S NOT THERE. I'm PISSED.
This has happened a couple of times before... and then when I retyped my post, the old one showed up. That doesn't seem to have happened this time.

Anyway...

Been a busy week and a long day.

When the Northstar was being designed, GM found that holes in the main bearing bulkheads to allow each bay to exchange air with its neighbors were practically a necessity. Because of the Northstar's lower crank case design, each main bearing bulkhead comes down almost to, if not touching the surface of the oil, essentially sealing off each bay from its neighbors, dramatically increasing pumping losses. In testing otherwise identical prototype engines, it was found that engines without windows gave up something like 30+ HP to engines with windows.

The conventional Northstar uses a die cast, open deck dry liner block. Because it's die cast, the holes can't be cast in place. GM machines them with a boring bar from the front of the engine. They are in approximately the location the cam would occupy, were the Northstar a pushrod engine. An expension plug is inserted in the back of the hole in the forward bulkhead (separates the 1-2 bay from the timing drive). The shaft for the intermediate timing sprocket covers the forward side of the hole, which is then used as a small plenum for oil from the front main bearing on its way to the cylinder heads and secondary timing chain tensioners.
Since the holes are machined with no subsequent operations, they have sharp edges.

The supercharged Northstar block is a sand cast closed deck dry liner design with thicker liners (smaller bore) than the die cast blocks. Because the block is sand cast the windows can be cast in place, and since they can be cast in place, they can be cast with radiused edges. In development testing, the rounded edges were found to be worth about 5 horsepower.

Since it would only take a couple of hours and pretty much no money, I went ahead and did this to my block.

This is what the windows looked like stock--sharp enough to cut yourself on:

This is what I could do with a die grinder:


A machinist frined suggested that I take a long strip of sandpaper and see-saww it back and forth through the window. I tried that and it worked much better than the die grinder. This is the finished product:

It may not look like much in the picture, but that's a bad angle. If you could feel the difference between the two, you'd be amazed.

There are other sets of bay-to-bay breathing windows on either side of the main bearing bores. They are 1/2" wide and 1" tall and straddle the block split. They would be great candidates for porting with a relatively simple CNC mill program, but since I didn't have that and did have a die grinder, I used the die grinder.

Before:


After:

Alan Johnson has told me that his engines experience oil drain back problems when they spend a lot of time "up at high C", as he puts it, and tipped at odd angles because a sand car can't keep its front wheels on the ground. The oil drain back passages in the side of the block are cast in place for most of their length, but are finished using a mill. This leaves sharp corners and such in the flow path. I used the same technique to smooth them as I used for the main b2b windows:

The oil drain back holes also go through the lower crank case, oil manifold, and are cast into the sides of the oil pan. They ultimately empty out below the surface of the oil in the pan. The holes in the lower crank case are cast most of the way and finished by a mill as are the holes in the block. However, the diameter is not consistent between the milled and cast portion of the holes, and the location is frequently off. There is room in the lower crank case to enlarge these holes to a consistent diameter via milling or drilling on a press.

The oil manifold is the next step. For those of you unfamiliar with the Northstar's oil system, the oil galleries that feed the mains are cast into the underside of the lower crank case as troughs. They are turned into passages by the oil manifold, which is similar to the valve body in an automatic transmission... it is a flat aluminum plate with holes in it at the right locations, and a linear seal inlaid into it to seal the troughs in the bottom of the lower crank case. From these troughs, the oil goes around the shanks of the main bolts on the left side of the engine and into the main bearings. The troughs would be another interesting CNC porting project.
The oil mainifold could in theory be drilled out to a larger size in the oil drain back holes, however this comes very close to the groove in which the aforementioned seal resides.
In a max effort engine, I would have a new piece of aluminum laser cut with the appropriate holes, and then have a groove for o-ring stock milled in to it, then have the plate milled or ground flat.

I have not looked at the drain back passages in the oil pan yet.

Also in a max effort engine, I might see if I could install pressure regulators in the cylinder heads in the passage where each head gets oil from the block. This would help reduce one of the causes of oil drain back problems... excessive top end oiling.


This is what the workbench looked like when I was done:

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-04-2005).]

GSXRBOBBY (robertmanker@yahoo.com) MSG #226, 06-05-2005 02:11 AM
      Damb Willy you made a mess, that was so good info. posted though!



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #227, 06-08-2005 09:19 AM
      Lower left bellhousing bolt hole had stripped the first time I was putting the new engine in. I got around to helicoiling it last night. The block is back on the stand in my garage, although I will be going back to the shop with the lower crank case to drill out the drain back holes in it.

Need to balance the crank and one other big task before I have everything in line to reassemble.

Have access to a balancer and borrowed bob weights from the machine shop. I'll be turning or grinding material from the OD of the counterweights, instead of drilling it as is standard practice.

AkursedX (akursedx@aol.com) MSG #228, 06-08-2005 09:24 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I'll be turning or grinding material from the OD of the counterweights, instead of drilling it as is standard practice.

I'm curious as to why you are doing it that way instead of drilling. I would think drilling would be easier to balance. I would think grinding the OD would end changing the shape and result in worse balance. I might be wrong though. But if I were to touch the OD, I think I would turn it rather than grind it just to be a bit smoother.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #229, 06-08-2005 09:57 AM
      If I can turn it, I will, but the throw may be in the way of turning the counterweight.

I'm doing it that way to get the maximum reduction of moment of inertia from the balance.

AkursedX (akursedx@aol.com) MSG #230, 06-08-2005 01:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I'm doing it that way to get the maximum reduction of moment of inertia from the balance.

Ummm, in simple terms that means you want to remove more weight from the outside so you have less rotating mass, or something to that effect? Lowering rotating mass=higher revs? If I'm correct is my thinking, I now understand why you are doing it that way....



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #231, 06-08-2005 01:58 PM
      the crank will have more mass than drill balanced crank, but because the mass will be closer to the axis, it will have lower rotational inertia. It won't rev any higher, but it will accelerate faster.

cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #232, 06-08-2005 02:38 PM
      It will be interesting to see how much material if any you need to remove.

WAWUZAT (hoowasat@cox.net) MSG #233, 06-08-2005 07:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by AkursedX:
Lowering rotating mass=higher revs?

Lowering rotating mass doesn't mean higher RPM ... it means getting to those higher RPMs faster.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #234, 06-09-2005 12:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by cptsnoopy:

It will be interesting to see how much material if any you need to remove.

Quite a bit. Stock rods are 680ish grams, Eagle rods are 530ish grams.

cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #235, 06-09-2005 01:22 AM
      my bad, i thought you had already run the Eagle rods.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #236, 06-09-2005 12:49 PM
      I had a an ebay crank drill-balanced to run Eagle rods with stock pistons.
The Ross pistons are a few grams heavier than stock, making the crank slightly underbalanced.
I have the crank that was in the engine that I originally swapped into the car. It is pristine and all the journals are within 0.0002 of spec, even after 100K miles. I'm going to be lathe balancing that crank. I have a third crank which will remain stock for comparison.

Both of the balanced cranks will be lighter than stock obviously, but I predict that the lathe balanced crank will be heavier than the drill balanced crank. HOWEVER, I can show through physics that it will have a smaller moment of inertia, despite being heavier.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-09-2005).]

cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #237, 06-09-2005 03:44 PM
      ok thanks, it makes sense now.

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #238, 06-14-2005 10:40 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

This is the second time tonight I've written this. WTF, Cliff?

FYI, this is a bug that is a result of very long posts. I had the same thing happen before when I wrote a very long post; when I redid it, I cut/paste it, the problem was repeatable. I then paste half of the post at a time and it worked fine...I'm not sure if it's a function of number of characters, or if the computer gets really confused by so much useful information.

Thanks for all the info Will, this is great documentation.

Bryce
88 GT


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #239, 07-14-2005 07:57 PM
      Piston ring issues.
For future reference, when ordering Total Seal rings for use with custom pistons, get the rings FIRST, measure how thick they are, then communicate that info to the piston MFG so that the piston grooves may be cut to the right width.
Ross cut the piston grooves in my pistons to 0.0605, which is exactly on spec for 1.5mm piston rings.
The Total Seal rings came out a bit under spec in thickness, giving me 0.0034 side clearance on the top rings and 0.0038 on the second rings. This clearance should be down around 0.0015 for top rings and 0.001 for 2nd rings.

To the credit of the company, Kevin took the rings back and gave me credit for them, even though it's been a year since I bought them.

I just ordered a plasma moly set of stock replacement rings 0.25mm oversize from Sealed Power through Summit. Federal Mogul part number E943K-25mm. My bores are 0.005 over, so the 0.25mm oversize (0.010) rings will give me a bit of extra room to file-fit the gaps, since the stock replacement rings are supposed to be pre-gapped.

I'm also considering making a ring lapping fixture. Rings are cast in a certain diameter, and are flat in that diameter only. When squeezed down to bore diameter, they are no longer as flat on the sealing surface (bottom surface for top ring and top surface for second ring).
So take a piece of bar stock bigger than the bore and face a shallow dish into one end at the finished bore diameter and about 2/3 - 3/4 the depth of the ring. Squeeze a ring into that and lap it flat at bore diameter to get a better seal than unlapped rings.
Pain in the tail, but worth a couple of ponies.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #240, 07-21-2005 10:42 PM
      Drilled out the oil drain back holes in the lower crank case today.

The tops of the ones opposite the crank sensor are slightly over 9/16, but the bottoms of those same holes are smaller than 1/2"! Ran a 9/16 drill all the way through those to open them up.
The holes on the same side as the crank sensor are all 15/32 or so at the top, but larger than that at the bottom (which is kinda strange since oil flows downhill...). I drilled one of those out to 9/16, but the other two took a little more attention. They are not centered on the main webbing, so I had to use a 0.550" end mill to center on the main webbing adn plunge as far as possible before sending the drill all the way through.
The result is that all 6 holes have now been enlarged to 9/16". The next step will be to do the same to the oil manifold, BUT I will need to look at it very closely as drilling the holes in it out will put the edges of the holes VERY close to the edges of the seal groove that holds the seal that maintains pressurized oil to the main bearings. Would not be good to have that seal fail!

Getting closer...

The Sealed Power rings arrived. They are not as thick as I'd like, averaging 0.0579" for the top rings and 0.0581 for the nd rings, but they are overall about 0.001 (top) and 0.0015 (2nd) thicker than the TS rings. They are also more consistent than the Total Seal rings. The SP rings have a thickness variance of 0.0002 across all 8 top rings and 0.0002 across all 8 2nd rings. No single ring had more than 0.0001" variation in thickness across the 4 points I measured.

The TS rings had as much as 0.0003 thickness variation in one ring and 0.0007 across the set.

The Sealed Power rings are still too thin for my tastes...
I will call on Monday to see if they have a set of 1/16" rings for a 262 Chevy. My bore is 3.667 (3.662 stock) and the 262 bore is 3.671. I will then use a surface grinder to thin the rings to 0.0590 top and 0.0595 2nd.

I also have access to a plater, so if nothing else can work, I can plate the non sealing surfaces of the rings up by about 0.001 or a bit more and touch them with the grinder to maintain consistent thickness.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-22-2005).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #241, 07-28-2005 10:26 PM
      Drilled the oil manifold drain back holes today. Used the lower crank case as a template and just ran the drill through on a press. All the holes in the manifold can be safely enlarged to 9/16", but the one immediately forward of the oil ports on the left side of the engine is VERY close to the seal... probably only 0.020 away...

Tomorrow evening I'm going to get it clean enough to bolt the bottom end together and measure the main bearing ID's with the new bearings. The clearances were too wide with the old bearings so I ordered another set, as well as a 0.010 under set if necessary. Alan Johnson likes to see 0.0023 to 0.0025 clearance on all bearings, main and rod. It would be an absolute shame to turn that carnk though... it's absolutely pristine and within 0.0002 of spec on all journals with basically no out-of-roundness at all... after 100,000 miles.

Damn I love working on Cadillac engines.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #242, 07-28-2005 10:33 PM
      Sealed Power at one time made rings for a 262 Chevy, but that set has been discontinued.

Hastings, however, makes a 1/16" racing piston ring in that bore size. They also have a standard cast 2nd ring as well. Hastings is the OE supplier for Cadillac oil rings, so I went ahead and ordered their oil rings as well.

Since the Northstar uses 1.5mm rings with 0.135 radial depth, and the Hastings rings are 1/16" with 0.166 radial depth, I have sent the pistons (along with the rings) back to Ross to have the grooves re-cut for the wider, deeper rings.

Should get them back in the 2nd week of August.

Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #243, 07-29-2005 10:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

The '99 and older N*'s use a direct acting hydraulic bucket tappet. The Y2K and newer engines use rocker arms with rollers and the hydraulic lash adjusters in the cylinder head itself. Overall it should be a reduction in valvetrain mass and friction.

The cams are different as well



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #244, 07-30-2005 12:12 AM
      I had hoped it would be pretty obvious that different cams would go along with conversion from flat tappet to roller lifter

Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #245, 07-30-2005 12:15 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I had hoped it would be pretty obvious that different cams would go along with conversion from flat tappet to roller lifter

I just realised it when i was comparing my 97 motor and my "supposed" 99 motor. Apparently its a y2k so I am kind of upset that I cant swap cams if I wanted to

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #246, 07-30-2005 05:31 PM
      After dorking around with my block all morning, I've decided to have it align honed.

The front four main bores and bearings vary from 0.0002 to 0.0005 out of round. Thanks to an incident with flywheel bolts too long, the rear main is 0.0013 out of round. Numbers 5 and 4 are also tapered about 0.0004.

The clearances vary from 0.0034 to 0.0038, which is WAY too wide. Alan Johnson recommends 0.0023 to 0.0025, which I think is still a bit wide. I'm going to call him and ask him about that.

I could fix the clearance and out of round of #'s 1-4 with 0.001 shim under the lower insert...
But #5 is just too hosed to be fixed that way, so I'm going back to the machine shop with it. Might be breaking new ground align boring this engine, as it doesn't have conventional caps. I might end up doing some of the work myself--clamping the lower crank case in a mill and skimming a couple of thou off the top in order for the shop to finish with the boring.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #247, 09-09-2005 11:16 AM
      Block is still in shop for align bore.

Rings are coming back to me. I will be hand lapping them to get the thickness tolerance where I want it, then the rings and pistons will go to Ron Baxter at Rebco in Kansas to have the grooves cut with .0001" flatness tolerance.

Just need to find a free weekend to spend on setting up the crank for balancing.

Does anyone know how to get in touch with Hank the Crank (HTC)?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-09-2005).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #248, 09-13-2005 03:58 PM
      I was just reminded that we have a surface grinder... I'm going to save what I've learned from this build for the next, and go ahead and use the Ross grooves, in the interest of getting it together sooner and cheaper.

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #249, 12-06-2005 01:22 AM
      Any update on this? Sorry if there's another thread or something, I rarely have time to hang around here anymore.

Bryce
88 GT


Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #250, 12-08-2005 09:30 PM
      Has anybody heard from Will? I sent him a PM with no response.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #251, 12-08-2005 09:39 PM
      I'm still around... I've just been very busy and haven't been on this forum as much (62 hours on the time card so far this week).

Plans are a changin'
Money's available now and I've decided to build this engine so that I won't have a good reason later to say "well, I could have done such and such..."

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-08-2005).]

ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #252, 12-08-2005 09:46 PM
      boost?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #253, 12-08-2005 11:06 PM
      no...
I'll build a turbo N* after I build a 700 HP 10,500 RPM naturally aspirated VVT Northstar.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-08-2005).]

ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #254, 12-08-2005 11:13 PM
      switching to a 2003 block (or heads)?

Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #255, 12-09-2005 01:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

no...
I'll build a turbo N* after I build a 700 HP 10,500 RPM naturally aspirated VVT Northstar.

Nice could you shed some light on this NA VVT? Tranny? maybe a long 6 speed?



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #256, 12-09-2005 09:52 PM
      I'm looking at Total Seal diamond lapped rings and CP pistons for the build. I wanted ceramic piston pins but HTC is having some "issues". Anyone else know about those?

Ross pistons will be for sale once I get the CP's in hand.

The VVT Northstars have the same intake ports (300+ CFM with mild porting) as the Y2K engines, except that the VVT heads have exhaust ports enlarged to match. This is enough port flow for over 700 HP N/A, and the VVT can be used to make it streetable at the same time. The potential problem with using a longitudinal engine in a transverse app is the same as for SBC... waterpump clearance. The VVT heads will require welding and machining to work with the transverse block and waterpump.

The transmission will be scratch built transverse 6 speed with sequential shifting.

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #257, 12-12-2005 12:26 PM
      Thanks for the update Will, as always, you've got my attention! I wish I had access to the machines you do, sounds like a fun project.

Bryce
88 GT


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #258, 01-10-2006 04:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fiero STS:

Some info on N* head bolts.

Contrary to popular belief the Northstar head bolts are really not torque to yield fasteners..... The bolts will stretch very slightly (permanently) but they are good for probably 10 rundowns before any perceptable yield would occur that would render them unusable.

In fact, new bolts are run down and then loosened in the plant in the normal operation tensioning the head bolts. The pre-tensioning step actuall subjects the bolts to more tension then the final tightening step.... This is done to burnish the threads in the block as they have never seen bolts in them before the heads are installed and the head bolts tensioned. The aluminum threads need to be "worked" once before the final tensioning step so the head bolts are run down, loosened and then re-tensioned. If you started with new bolts on your reassembly then you have only done the equivalent of the first pre-tensioning step on the bolts. Use them, they will be fine. Re-using a new bolt that has been run down one time is not the same as re-using a bolt that was in the engine for 100K.......

The instructions to not reuse old head bolts is primarily because the bolts when new have a special microencapsulated coating on the threads and under the head of the bolt. The coatings act as a high pressure lubricant during tensioning and then a thread locker once installed. On a simple run down and loosening without running the engine the bolts can be "used" several times. Once the bolts see a lot of time and thermal cycling in the engine the coatings are rendered unusable again so the bolts have to be replaced as there is no repeatable means or reapplying the special coatings in the field.

If you simply installed the head with a new gasket and new bolts and pulled a timesert out and dissassembled the head the bolts are fine to use again and so is the gasket. If the head gasket was not used in the running engine and subjected to any thermal cycles it is fine. The gasket will compress permanently somewhat when torqued into place....that does not ruin it. I have seen LOTS of head gaskets run down and loosened and re-run down and continued on test fine. As long as the gasket did not stick and tear when dissassembly the gasket is perfectly fine to re-use. It has just been "pre-compressed" much as it is done in the above mentioned pre-tensioning step to condition the head bolt holes. That is done with the gasket in place so the gasket sees the compression and then relaxation in production.

With the compacted graphite gaskets it is sometimes necessary to pre-compress the gasket and even heat it during compression prior to installing it into the engine. So, simply compressing the gasket to the installed load does not hurt or ruin it. If, however, the gasket is held under load and thermal cycled in the engine it will not be reusable. That is because the thermal cycling subjects the gasket to even more load that would cause it to be deformed beyond recovery if relaxed.


At least you can reuse the new gasket and bolts with no concerns.


What's the compressed thickness of the N* head gaskets? It's close to time to tell CP what compression height I want and I would like to set quench appropriately with the stock head gaskets.

Update:
per conversation with Kevin at TS, he can get a better ring package into 3.670 bore than 3.667, so the block will be honed again... still only 0.008 over, though.

Sample stock piston is at CP for measuring. I will be going with their "X" style forging for light weight. The only number we really lack is final compression height. To set that I will need to talk to Eagle about rod stretch, get the compressed thickness for the head gaskets and take a measurement AFTER the blok is align honed and (possibly) decked of the final deak height.

Brought the block back from the machine shop. The machinist can't align hone the mains because he isn't equipped to skim a lower crank case, just main caps. I'm going to skim the lower case half, then button it back up and take it back to him for align honing.

Considering having the block decked just to be sure, although I'm reasonably confident it is not required.

Will have to take a weekend to balance the crank, and then another to assemble the engine... AFTER the pistons are ready, of course.

Might even come together some time this year.

Steven Snyder (fiero@steventsnyder.com) MSG #259, 01-10-2006 05:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Might even come together some time this year.

The Rally is at the end of April. You can do it!

86 FIERO GT (vansboy911@aol.com) MSG #260, 01-10-2006 06:48 PM
      You know, your doing so much work on this motor and what happens if it goes pop?

JCW (jwebb@vt.edu) MSG #261, 01-10-2006 07:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 86 FIERO GT:

You know, your doing so much work on this motor and what happens if it goes pop?


You find out why it went "pop" and build it better the next time...


MaxCubes (max@kewlgeeks.com) MSG #262, 01-10-2006 07:45 PM
      Wow.....this thread started in December of 03...... Not an easy rebuild I guess.

Fiero1Fan (fiero1fan@fieros.eu) MSG #263, 01-10-2006 08:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 86 FIERO GT:

You know, your doing so much work on this motor and what happens if it goes pop?


That's mean.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #264, 01-10-2006 10:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 86 FIERO GT:

You know, your doing so much work on this motor and what happens if it goes pop?

It won't.

THE BEAST (jgomez@ircc.cc.fl.us) MSG #265, 01-11-2006 12:50 PM
      Thats right, IT WON'T !

JG

86 FIERO GT (vansboy911@aol.com) MSG #266, 01-11-2006 06:36 PM
      How is that mean? nothing is bulletproof you know, I was just askin because thats alotta tedious work on a motor to miss a shift or something go wrong. Ya know it isn't always human error all the time.

[This message has been edited by 86 FIERO GT (edited 01-11-2006).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #267, 01-11-2006 11:38 PM
      Rotating assembly and valvetrain will both be good to at least 8500. The rev limiter in the factory based chip is in the 6400-6700 range. A 3-2 upshift at 6400 would give me 9500, but I think I'm a good enough driver to not complete a 3-2 upshift.

Besides, you can blow up just about anything by over revving it enough. A journalist even managed to toast a Carerra GT engine by picking out the wrong gear.

THE BEAST (jgomez@ircc.cc.fl.us) MSG #268, 01-12-2006 12:46 PM
      Amen

JG

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #269, 02-02-2006 06:00 PM
      Eagle rod cross section:

code:

0.985"
____________________
0.082" |________ _________|
| |
0.445" | |
_______| |________
|____________________|

0.177"



Cross sectional area of the beam: 0.240305 in^2
For estimation purposes, I'm going to use 0.240 in^2 in my calculations.

I will calculate piston acceleration at 8500 RPM with 3.307" stroke and 5.943" connecting rods. I will use the mass of the piston, pin, rings and small end of the rod to estimate tensile stress on the rod shank. Using 30-33 million psi as the elastic modulus of 4340 steel, I will estimate rod stretch at my intended redline RPM.

I will use measured block deck height and head gasket compressed thickness to determine how much room I have and tell CP what the compression height of the pistons should be so that I have a VERY tight quench at redline RPM.

bryson MSG #270, 02-02-2006 08:06 PM
      It's nice to see someone going the extra mile, instead of just saying, "zero deck pistons, .040 compressed HG, I'm good to go" (which I did, btw). I'm assuming you're going to account for the thermal expansion of the rod and piston, as well as the block and head? Everything's aluminum except the rods, pins, crank, and sleeves (those may not make a difference), so that shouldn't be too difficult. Excellent job! Post up the math, if you don't mind!

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #271, 02-05-2006 11:46 PM
      With a bit of work on my part, I can tell CP one number that can help my engine make a handful more HP and be more detonation resistant... Of course it will also be more susceptible to over-rev, but we won't think about that...

LS1 block is 319-T5, heads are 356-T6.
Supercharged Northstar block and heads are 319-T7... references to the SC lower crank case have not mentioned the alloy.
I haven't found a page that specifically calls out the alloy used in the naturally aspirated Northstars, but I will @$$ume that it's 319-T7 just like the SC ones.

However, this site: http://www.key-to-metals.com/Article106.htm mentions that different alloys are preferred for sand vs die casting. The SC block is sand cast, but all lower crank cases and all N/A blocks are die cast... Hmm... I found another page that mentions 380 as being good for die casting and widely used in the automotive industry.

Vega 4 cylinder blocks were 390 aluminum.
Hypereutectic aluminum alloys have >12% Silicon.

Anyway...
This page: ( http://www.anidatech.com/hot.html#material ) lists coefficient for 380 aluminum at 1.21E-5/*F, but does not list 356-T6 for comparison.


Since that's the only number I've found, I'll use it.

The deck height of my block is... <shuffle> 8... hmm.. I'll track that down tomorrow...

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #272, 02-07-2006 10:39 PM
      Anyone feel like checking my math?

P = piston position
V = piston velocity
A = piston acceleration

R = connecting rod length (5.943")
T = crank throw (1.654")
a = crank angle ATDC
S = RPS (141.7)


P(t) = Tcosa(t) + (R2-(Tsina(t))2)1/2

V(t) = dP(t)/dt = (da(t)/dt)(dP(t)/da) = -(da(t)/dt)Tsina(t) - (da(t)/dt)T2sina(t)cosa(t) / (R2-(Tsina(t))2)1/2

A(t) = dV(t)/dt = -(da(t)/dt)2Tcosa(t) - (d2a(t)/dt2)Tsina(t) -
((R2-(Tsina(t))2)1/2 ((d2a(t)/dt2)T2sina(t)cosa(t) + (da(t)/dt)2T2cos2a(t) - (da(t)/dt)2T2sin2a(t)) - (da(t)/dt)2T4sin2a(t)cos2a(t)(R2-(Tsina(t))2)-1/2) / (R2-(Tsina(t))2)


a(t) = 2 Pi S t
for 8500 RPM, S = 141.7
a(t) = 890.1t which is an angular velocity of 890 rad/s

I'm only concerned about acceleration at TDC, so I set t=0 (which means a(t) = 0) so that all the sin(a(t)) terms magically go away and all the cos(a(t)) terms go to 1. What remains is:

A(t)|t=0 = (da(t)/dt)2(-T - T2/R)

da(t)/dt = 890
(da(t)/dt)2 = 792,309.9

So piston acceleration at TDC in a Northstar at 8500 RPM is...

-1,675,201.25 in/sec2
-139,600.10ft/sec2
~ -4,362.50 g's

Edited 'cause I blew a sign the first time...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-07-2006).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #273, 02-07-2006 11:10 PM
      The above is (should be) the *correct* piston acceleration, with rod length taken into account.

This is the "conventional" estimate of piston acceleration taking only stroke and angular velocity into account.
P(t) = Tcosa(t)

V(t) = -(da(t)/dt)Tsina(t)

A(t) = -((d2a(t)/dt2)Tsina(t)+(da(t)/dt)2Tcosa(t)

Again, the sine term goes to zero and the cosine term goes to 1 at TDC and we have

A(t)|t=0 = -(da(t)/dt)2T

which from above is 792,309.9 * 1.654 = 1,310,480 in/sec2
or 3,412 g's, which differs significantly (22% low!) from the *correct* number above.

I picked up on the fact that I'd made a sign error by doing a sanity check and noticing that the number taking rod length into account was less than the one without... the opposite should be true. By not taking rod ratio length into account, the equation is implicitly for an infinitely long rod, and lengthening the rod reduces piston acceleration. With the sign error, lengthening the rod increased piston acceleration.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-07-2006).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #274, 02-07-2006 11:18 PM
      4,362 g's ~ 42,311 m/s2

With a (estimated) 0.400 kg piston, this comes to 16,924 N of tension on the rod, which is in the neighborhood of 4200#. On a 0.240 in2 cross section, this is a stress of about 17,600 psi.

This obviously neglects the mass of the rings, oil, pin and small end of the conrod, which I will add in later (when I have the balance sheet in front of me).

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-07-2006).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #275, 02-08-2006 03:43 PM
      Block deck height is 8.848". With a coefficient of expansion of 1.21E-5/F, the deck height will grow by 0.0139 going from 70*F to 200*F operating temp. I guess I need to figure the same data for the rod, as well...
Mental note, look up thermal expansion coefficient for 4340 steel...


Piston weight is TBD but in the 375-400 g range
Stock pins weigh 112 g
Locks weigh 2 g
Rings weigh 30 g
Rod small end weighs 158 g

So total weight less the small end is 544 g. This leads to tension of ~5750#.
The tension from the mass of the small end can not be added in as easily, because that mass is distributed along the shank of the rod. Thus the rod is under greater tension close to the big end and less close to the small end. I am surprised that the rods are not tapered. The difference in stress leads to a difference in strain and fatigue life across the rod.
The small end's 158 g's translates to a strain of 1670# at the big end and 0# at the small end. Thus the average stress through the rod, and the number that should be used in the calculation of total rod stretch is 835#.

So the total rod tension for the purposes of calculating stress & strain is 6585#. Using a 0.240 cross section, this is a stress of 27,437 psi. With elastic modulus numbers between 30 & 33 Mpsi, this translates to a strain of 0.00091 - 0.00083 and elongation of 0.0049-0.0054". Wow. That's less than I expected...

But quench needs to be more than that. We need to add ~0.003-4 for bearing and piston pin clearances, which will drop to microinches with this much tension on things. Crank stretch needs to be taken into account, although that will surely be VERY minimal due to the MUCH larger cross sectional area of the sides of the crank throw. Piston stretch may account for a good chunk, but I'll need to talk to CP about that...



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #276, 02-08-2006 03:59 PM
      Of course all those numbers are just shank stretch... I have neglected the deformation of the big and small ends, about which it would appear I need to be more concerned.

Steven Snyder (fiero@steventsnyder.com) MSG #277, 02-08-2006 08:22 PM
      If you want to be really exact don't forget about bearing clearance and the thickness of the oil film. It is not uniform under load.

motoracer838 (jmartin@musicunveiled.com) MSG #278, 02-08-2006 08:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Anyone feel like checking my math?

P = piston position
V = piston velocity
A = piston acceleration

R = connecting rod length (5.943")
T = crank throw (1.654")
a = crank angle ATDC
S = RPS (141.7)


P(t) = Tcosa(t) + (R2-(Tsina(t))2)1/2

V(t) = dP(t)/dt = (da(t)/dt)(dP(t)/da) = -(da(t)/dt)Tsina(t) - (da(t)/dt)T2sina(t)cosa(t) / (R2-(Tsina(t))2)1/2

A(t) = dV(t)/dt = -(da(t)/dt)2Tcosa(t) - (d2a(t)/dt2)Tsina(t) -
((R2-(Tsina(t))2)1/2 ((d2a(t)/dt2)T2sina(t)cosa(t) + (da(t)/dt)2T2cos2a(t) - (da(t)/dt)2T2sin2a(t)) - (da(t)/dt)2T4sin2a(t)cos2a(t)(R2-(Tsina(t))2)-1/2) / (R2-(Tsina(t))2)


a(t) = 2 Pi S t
for 8500 RPM, S = 141.7
a(t) = 890.1t which is an angular velocity of 890 rad/s

I'm only concerned about acceleration at TDC, so I set t=0 (which means a(t) = 0) so that all the sin(a(t)) terms magically go away and all the cos(a(t)) terms go to 1. What remains is:

A(t)|t=0 = (da(t)/dt)2(-T - T2/R)

da(t)/dt = 890
(da(t)/dt)2 = 792,309.9

So piston acceleration at TDC in a Northstar at 8500 RPM is...

-1,675,201.25 in/sec2
-139,600.10ft/sec2
~ -4,362.50 g's

Edited 'cause I blew a sign the first time...


To much math I think my head is going to explode. cool thread tho. Joe


Steven Snyder (fiero@steventsnyder.com) MSG #279, 02-08-2006 08:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Anyone feel like checking my math?

P(t) = Tcosa(t) + (R2-(Tsina(t))2)1/2

V(t) = dP(t)/dt = (da(t)/dt)(dP(t)/da) = -(da(t)/dt)Tsina(t) - (da(t)/dt)T2sina(t)cosa(t) / (R2-(Tsina(t))2)1/2


I checked it up through V(t) but I didnt feel like differentiating any beyond that.. A(t) is ugly. Anyway, P(t) and V(t) are certainly right.

[This message has been edited by Steven Snyder (edited 02-08-2006).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #280, 02-08-2006 09:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Steven Snyder:

If you want to be really exact don't forget about bearing clearance and the thickness of the oil film. It is not uniform under load.

Yes, that's on my list, as well as oblonging of the big end and small end bores.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
But quench needs to be more than that. We need to add ~0.003-4 for bearing and piston pin clearances, which will drop to microinches with this much tension on things. Crank stretch needs to be taken into account, although that will surely be VERY minimal due to the MUCH larger cross sectional area of the sides of the crank throw. Piston stretch may account for a good chunk, but I'll need to talk to CP about that...

 
quote
Originally posted by Steven Snyder:
I checked it up through V(t) but I didnt feel like differentiating any beyond that.. A(t) is ugly. Anyway, P(t) and V(t) are certainly right.

Thanks.
Yeah, a triple product derivative nested in a quotient derivative gets ugly fast.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #281, 02-10-2006 10:01 AM
      Ok, just kinda thinking...

0.0055 from shank stretch
0.0023 from rod bearing clearance
0.001 from piston pin to rod clearance
0.001 from piston pin to piston clearance

0.0098

Because the bores are larger than the journals, there's room for the bores to oblong by (bearing clearance)*Pi/2... or 0.0036 if using 0.0023 bearing clearance as recommended by Alan Johnson. The corresponding number for the small end of the rod is 0.0015

That gets to 0.0149

Things that still require looking at:
Piston stretch
Crank stretch (main bearing clearance?)
Rod bolt stretch beyond what happens during installation
Stretch of the "big end" beyond simple oblonging of the bore

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-10-2006).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #282, 04-21-2006 09:41 AM
      Ok... I took the block back from Mauzy's shop. He does great work, but it's a VERY busy time of year for him and he wouldn't be able to get to the block for a month or more. He also doesn't have any experience with engines with the N* style bottom end.
After installing time serts in the main bolt holes, I took the block to Justice Racing Engines in Frederick, MD. This shop has done a LOT of very high level import drag racing work, including the Enfantis' Supra engines. In addition, he has the tooling and experience to deal with engines that have the lower crank case style bottom end. Besides the Northstar, this includes Honda F & K series and Toyota 1ZZ and 2ZZ engines, among others. Justice is also a CP Pistons distributor, which Mauzy currently is not.

I didn't get the whole kit to install the main bolt time serts. I bought the installation mandrel ($50 for a glorified bolt!!!) from Kent-Moore and did the rest on a mill. A friend and I set up the block on a large 90 degree plate and supported the far end with a machinist's jack. We drilled the holes out with a 13/32 drill to full depth, about 1.230 (the depth to which GM drilled them originally). Then we counterbored with 1/2" end mill to a depth of 0.250-0.255. This depth is important as the inserts MUST be installed to sufficient depth both for strength and not to restrict oil flow to the main bearings. The final mill operation was tapping 10x1.5-STI to prep the holes. I ran the inserts in by hand along with a generous helping of Loctite maximum strength retaining compound.

Once Justice decks the block and provides me with a deck height, I'll finish my quench math and tell CP what compression height I want on the pistons and then that particular ball will be rolling.


ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #283, 07-27-2006 07:08 PM
      Can't let this go do-do...

You need to create a short, concise thread of the things you learned, the things needed, etc... 8 pages is a bit much to go through to find out that you need to use xxx with yyy or explosions happen.

And you need to do some more math.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #284, 07-30-2006 12:13 AM
      CP pistons are on the way. Total Seal Diamond Finish rings will be coming with. The pistons will include pins, which will be 2.25" long vice the stock 2.48" long. I still would have liked to have ceramic aluminum pins, but Hank the Crank was having "problems" last I checked.

I built a spreadsheet to look at quench numbers, but I kept on getting unexpectedly small numbers, so I decided that I didn't have enough info to calculate that directly.

However, I have been told that a 350 with 4340 rods and comparable quality pistons can run as little as 0.032 quench to 7200 RPM.

With a 3.48" stroke and 5.700" rods, the piston acceleration at TDC at 7200 RPM is...

R = 5.700"
T = 1.740"
S = 120 RPS

a(t) = 754t
da(t)/dt = 754
(da(t)/dt)2 = 568,489

A(t)|t=0 = -1,291,128 in/sec2
= 3,362 g's.

With 6.000" rods, this would be 3,322 g's (~1% difference).

At 7200 RPM, the Northstar pistons experience 3,130 g's.

So if the pistons weighed the same, The Northstar should experience the same rod stretch at 7640 as the 350 does at 7200.

HOWEVER, the pistons do not weigh the same. CP has given me estimates of the Northstar piston weights. I need to call them back and get a number for a comparable 350 piston and do a bit more arithmetic.

However, in the mean time I've decided to go for 0.035 quench. I'm going to set the pistons up at 0.005 in the hole and use an 0.030 MLS gasket (stockers are around 0.065 compressed(!)). If I decide I can get away with it, I may drop to a 0.027 gasket.

The CP pistons will be fit at 0.003 bore clearance, while the Ross pistons required 0.0045 bore clearance. That should give a clue about the difference in engineering between those to brands.


Concision is for Cliff Notes.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-30-2006).]

ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #285, 07-30-2006 01:58 AM
      is stock quench 0.065?

Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #286, 07-30-2006 03:32 AM
      nitpicker ..why not shoot for at least 8,500 rpms? ..I know, its a N* and it has its limitations ..Will, not long ago I seen several IRL "N*" engines on ebay that went for about 8 grand ..sure its some cash but still ..if you can come up with a combo that isn't going to cost an arm, leg, and several 88 GT Ttops to finance please do share the specs ..I've always thought the N* was the ultimate Fiero swap short of a 355 Ferrari engine

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #287, 07-30-2006 08:53 AM
      When I get the piston weights from CP (basically, when I get around to calling), I'll have better estimates. Suffice it to say that a 3.670" bore piston will be lighter than a 4.000" bore piston and I'll gain RPM capacity over a 350 that way.

I don't know the stock piston/deck dimension. I know the LS1's are a little bit OUT of the hole from the factory. Not sure if the stock N*'s are zero deck or out of the hole.


ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #288, 07-30-2006 10:22 AM
      Cline was saying that a shorter quench would lead to faster carbon buildup and make it more prone to carbon rap. That doesn't make much sense to me, because it seems like with less squish, it would create more airforce on the carbon to shoot it out into the center of the cylinder.... But at any rate, I guess you'll have to do your italian tuneups regularly...

And I won't accept less than 10krpm from you. The stock parts can go to 8500 for a dyno run or two...

[This message has been edited by ryan.hess (edited 07-30-2006).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #289, 07-30-2006 12:28 PM
      With a hard breakin and good ring seal, I don't see that carbon would be an issue as long as the engine is tuned well.

Why don't 350's have problems with tight quench?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #290, 08-21-2006 12:10 PM
      I'll do a couple of 3-2 upshifts to demonstrate 10,000 RPM capability from the assembly.

Write me a 7730 program with the limiter at 10.5...

After discussion with CP, a 350 piston of comparable design to mine would weigh about 18% more. The difference in bore cross section is 19%, further indication of how well the CP pistons are optimised.

Ok, so with the same weight pistons, a Northstar can spin to 7600 with the same quench as a 350 has at 7200. The fact that the pistons weigh 18% less means that there will be 18% less stress on the rod from piston acceleration. This won't mean an 18% reduction in rod stress... because there are things like the pin and the weight of the small end of the rod to consider... but I'll fudge it and say that there is a 10% reduction in rod stress from 18% reduction in piston weight.

Rod stress goes up as the square of RPM, so the RPM increase would be the square root of 1.10, or about 1.05. This multiplied by the previously mentioned 7640 gives just a touch over 8,000.

So I ought to be safe with 0.032 quench at 8,000 RPM. 0.035 quench should be good for 8300-8400.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #291, 09-01-2006 11:17 PM
      Pistons are at Calico being coated. I got a big chunk of the bill for pistons, rings & coatings... ouch. Doing it right hurts.

I haven't been keeping track of machine work here... the align hone was completed and the block was decked just a teensy bit to straighten it out. The deck height came to 8.840".
The stroke is 3.307 and the throw is 1.6535.
The conrod is 5.943.
8.840 - (1.6535 + 8.840) = 1.243

I'm setting the piston up 0.005 in the hole, so the compression height I ordered from CP was 1.238. I plan on using 0.030 Cometic MLS gaskets, but I need to verify the piston/deck relationship before I order those. A Cometic rep told me it would take three days to make the gaskets (they already have a pattern on file) before they could be shipped.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-01-2006).]

THE BEAST (jgomez@ircc.cc.fl.us) MSG #292, 09-02-2006 11:51 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

CP pistons are on the way. Total Seal Diamond Finish rings will be coming with. The pistons will include pins, which will be 2.25" long vice the stock 2.48" long. I still would have liked to have ceramic aluminum pins, but Hank the Crank was having "problems" last I checked.

I built a spreadsheet to look at quench numbers, but I kept on getting unexpectedly small numbers, so I decided that I didn't have enough info to calculate that directly.

However, I have been told that a 350 with 4340 rods and comparable quality pistons can run as little as 0.032 quench to 7200 RPM.

With a 3.48" stroke and 5.700" rods, the piston acceleration at TDC at 7200 RPM is...

R = 5.700"
T = 1.740"
S = 120 RPS

a(t) = 754t
da(t)/dt = 754
(da(t)/dt)2 = 568,489

A(t)|t=0 = -1,291,128 in/sec2
= 3,362 g's.

With 6.000" rods, this would be 3,322 g's (~1% difference).

At 7200 RPM, the Northstar pistons experience 3,130 g's.

So if the pistons weighed the same, The Northstar should experience the same rod stretch at 7640 as the 350 does at 7200.

HOWEVER, the pistons do not weigh the same. CP has given me estimates of the Northstar piston weights. I need to call them back and get a number for a comparable 350 piston and do a bit more arithmetic.

However, in the mean time I've decided to go for 0.035 quench. I'm going to set the pistons up at 0.005 in the hole and use an 0.030 MLS gasket (stockers are around 0.065 compressed(!)). If I decide I can get away with it, I may drop to a 0.027 gasket.

The CP pistons will be fit at 0.003 bore clearance, while the Ross pistons required 0.0045 bore clearance. That should give a clue about the difference in engineering between those to brands.


Concision is for Cliff Notes.



So I will have to have the block machine to .0095? .005 over for the pistons plus .0045 for the clearance= .0095 right?

JG


THE BEAST (jgomez@ircc.cc.fl.us) MSG #293, 09-02-2006 12:00 PM
      Hey, if this # are right then I will only have size down the rings .0005

JG


toddshotrods (info@toddperkinsdesign.com) MSG #294, 09-24-2006 03:40 PM
      Had to float this one back to the top. Boy, do I have a lot to learn! I also forgot how deep Will digs



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #295, 10-30-2006 09:37 PM
      Pistons are done & at machine shop.
Rings are done & at machine shop.
Block machine work is finished.

I'm having some issues with getting the crank balanced the way I want it done. I left my best crank (the one that was in the engine I had been running) with the shop that did the block work. They don't have crank machinery on site, so they sent it off to a crank specialist with my instructions, which were to turn material from the outside radius of the counterweight until the balance was close and then balance by conventional methods (drilling to remove weight). The crank shop apparently wasn't as experienced as was implied, because they cut OVER .500 from the radius of the counterweights. There wasn't enough left of the weights to put enough Mallory metal in them to bring them back up to weight. Scratch one otherwise perfrect Northstar crank. Grrr....

I had another crank that I thought hadn't been messed with, but it needed a journal job. Ok, I handed that one over and got the undersized bearings ($180 for the rods and $70 for the mains) and had the journal job done. Once that was done, the shop put the crank on the balancer (check first!) and found it to be out by 125 g/end. Based on the difference in bobweights, I had calc'd that it should be out 270 g/end. @#%@%@#@#$.... So now I have to figure out WHY this crank is lighter than I think it ought to be and pull a crank out of one of my parts engines to compare the factory balance holes to the ones in that crank. SIGH....


S8N (ctraenkner@adelphia.net) MSG #296, 10-30-2006 11:12 PM
      Doh, that sucks. I have found that there are fewer and fewer shops that really know how to performance balance a crank or rotating assembly. I take it you want to do first and second harmonics? How many N* do you have laying around?

-Chuck
'87 Fiero spread across three states and six counties.


carolinajoe (groovieguy@gmail.com) MSG #297, 10-31-2006 07:00 AM
      Hey Will

Where you been, trying to get ahold of you.

I just went and checked ebay there was a brand new
crank on there but looks like it sold.
That sucks, what you are going through with the cranks.




Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #298, 10-31-2006 09:40 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by S8N:

Doh, that sucks. I have found that there are fewer and fewer shops that really know how to performance balance a crank or rotating assembly. I take it you want to do first and second harmonics? How many N* do you have laying around?

-Chuck
'87 Fiero spread across three states and six counties.


Since this is a street engine, I was going for a neutral balance. If it were a race engine, I might consider overbalancing, but it isn't. I have enough rebuildable cores lying around that I'm not going to run out of cranks soon, but not getting it done the way I really want it done is annoying.


 
quote
Originally posted by carolinajoe:
Hey Will

Where you been, trying to get ahold of you.


Did you try email?
I've done enough with ebay cranks. The last time I tried that, the crank showed up in a great big cardboard box, packed in styrofoam peanuts....


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #299, 12-31-2006 02:00 PM
      I pulled apart two parts engines that I had in the shed. One was a '00-'03 engine and the other was a '96-'99 engine. Both had the same pattern of holes in the counterweights as the crank I sent off to be worked on. I'm waiting to hear back about the depths of those holes, but in all probability that crank has not been worked on. Hmm... So if that crank has NOT been worked on and is half as out of balance as I expected it to be, then my math must be wrong.

Good news: probably don't have to send another crank off.

Bad news: not sure where I went wrong and don't want to go forward until I know.

Good news: the crank balancing guy gave me the number for an engineer with a balancer manufacturing outift with whom I could discuss the math of balancing.


AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #300, 12-31-2006 02:38 PM
      Will I have 3 spare cranks in good shape. One may have slight surface rust. I must have 4 sets of rods. One set is an early set. The stock rods are OK to 13K "I question that". I have 1 block left after I installed the other in my Fiero. I have 1 set of 00-02 heads with Y cams. I just let a 04 engine go that had a bent rod and hole in the block. It had ingested water. It had a good set of 9 heads. The caddy dealer I work at has 4 separate shops the first has all windows the second is my shop I work with two other guys the third is half mechanical and the other half body the fourth is all body shop. The reason I mention this is I have 4 stalls and the other 2 guys share 4 stalls. I have only been there 3 years the other 2 have been around 14 and 18 years. I have been having issues with my Fiero parts in the shop and finally think it is really about all the free parts I get. I passed on the last engine parts. I come across a lot of parts let me know if I can help. When I started they went though and cleaned out the old engine sitting around. I would guess about 10 engines got scrapped

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #301, 12-31-2006 03:55 PM
      I'm interested in a set of '04+ FWD heads. That's when they increased exhaust valve size and revised the exhaust port. I'd like to see how the '04 exhaust port compares to the intake. The int/exh ratio on the '00-'03 heads is attrocious for an all motor performance build. It's too bad because the '00+ intake ports flow excellently.

Beyond that, I have all the major parts I could ever use. I've sworn off production rods. Eagles are soo cheap and soooo much lighter that there's no point in using the stockers. Alan Johnson told me that the stock rod bolts wouldn't take much more than 7K reliably and the stock rods should be replaced to spin the engine to 8K reliably.

The '00 engine I took down tossed a rod with ~50 miles on the clock and the '96-'99 was a dyno mule that had holes poked in the cam covers and lower crank case so it couldn't be sold as a new engine.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-31-2006).]

AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #302, 12-31-2006 06:43 PM
      The two guys had complained about are janitor about a month ago. Two weeks ago they sent the motor to our part time/retired parts guy. That means he was in the 19th and then I would think he took home the engine on the 22nd. He scraps the aluminum for doughnut money. The prick that had the engine in his stall said I could not touch it, because he was selling the parts on E-Bay. Six months later and no motivation on his part the engine was given to Jake. I have helped out Jake and his son a lot. I will see if they have the heads yet. They will give them to me if they have them. I will let you know.

[This message has been edited by AJxtcman (edited 01-12-2007).]

AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #303, 01-12-2007 07:49 AM
      Hello Will
I looked into moving the Intake cams. The company that did the head work was BPE racing heads. They had refered the customer to CHRF. They say that they set cam centerline up different.

For the normally aspirated engines, we have 5 grinds from mild to wild. These cams will still make enough vacuum to operate your power brakes, etc. We also set up the intake centerline a little differently to obtain more torque or more power.

272 deg
280 deg
288 deg
300 deg
310 deg
Stock for a VIN 9 was 122 +18 "1 tooth" = 130 DEG.
Something to look at


m0sh_man (macantley@suddenlink.net) MSG #304, 01-12-2007 08:25 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by AJxtcman:

Hello Will
I looked into moving the Intake cams. The company that did the head work was BPE racing heads. They had refered the customer to CHRF. They say that they set cam centerline up different.

For the normally aspirated engines, we have 5 grinds from mild to wild. These cams will still make enough vacuum to operate your power brakes, etc. We also set up the intake centerline a little differently to obtain more torque or more power.

272 deg
280 deg
288 deg
300 deg
310 deg
Stock for a VIN 9 was 122 +18 "1 tooth" = 130 DEG.
Something to look at


I sent you a PM about cam's and what not.

matthew



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #305, 01-12-2007 03:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by AJxtcman:

Hello Will
The company that did the head work was BPE racing heads. They had refered the customer to CHRF. They say that they set cam centerline up different.


Did the head work for what? LMP cars?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-12-2007).]

AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #306, 01-12-2007 04:56 PM
      Sorry Will I should have refered to this

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/078978.html

Will
Member
Posts: 7062
From: Where you least expect me
Registered: Jun 2000

Total ratings: 139
Rate this member

12-13-2006 08:46 AM

How do you reset cam timing?


AJxtcman
Member
Posts: 84
From: Wauwatosa, WI usa
Registered: Nov 2006

12-13-2006 02:11 PM

99 Y engine has intake cam timing at 8 deg BTDC and a centerline of 117 deg ATDC
99 9 engine has intake cam timing at 13 deg BTDC and a center line of 126.5 deg ATDC
2000 Y engine has intake cam timing at 5.6 deg BTDC and a center line of 113 deg ATDC
2000 9 engine has intake cam timing at 0 deg BTDC and a center line of 122 deg ATDC

[This message has been edited by AJxtcman (edited 01-12-2007).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #307, 01-12-2007 05:07 PM
      I remember the post. I'm still wondering what that has to do with BPE.

ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #308, 01-12-2007 07:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by AJxtcman:

Hello Will
I looked into moving the Intake cams. The company that did the head work was BPE racing heads. They had refered the customer to CHRF. They say that they set cam centerline up different.

For the normally aspirated engines, we have 5 grinds from mild to wild. These cams will still make enough vacuum to operate your power brakes, etc. We also set up the intake centerline a little differently to obtain more torque or more power.

272 deg
280 deg
288 deg
300 deg
310 deg
Stock for a VIN 9 was 122 +18 "1 tooth" = 130 DEG.
Something to look at


Those are durations, not centerlines. Stock for a VIN 9 is 266/24x Intake/exhaust. You can't change duration by moving the cams.


ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #309, 01-12-2007 07:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I'm interested in a set of '04+ FWD heads. That's when they increased exhaust valve size and revised the exhaust port. I'd like to see how the '04 exhaust port compares to the intake. The int/exh ratio on the '00-'03 heads is attrocious for an all motor performance build. It's too bad because the '00+ intake ports flow excellently.

Beyond that, I have all the major parts I could ever use. I've sworn off production rods. Eagles are soo cheap and soooo much lighter that there's no point in using the stockers. Alan Johnson told me that the stock rod bolts wouldn't take much more than 7K reliably and the stock rods should be replaced to spin the engine to 8K reliably.

The '00 engine I took down tossed a rod with ~50 miles on the clock and the '96-'99 was a dyno mule that had holes poked in the cam covers and lower crank case so it couldn't be sold as a new engine.



Want me to keep an eye out for those heads? I scour ebay pretty regularly...

Strange, I too had a 2000 with a rod sticking out of the block... The rods (or rod bolts, not sure which) appear to be a secondary weak link, after the head gasket/head bolt holes


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #310, 01-12-2007 08:03 PM
      Go ahead... keep an eye out for them.

The Y2K engine I tore down had the rod bolts intact. I'm not sure if the piston came apart or if the very end of the rod came off.


befarrer (befarrer@telus.net) MSG #311, 01-12-2007 11:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

This is what the lifters look like:

This one has what appears to be a circumferencial crack about 1/8" down from the top of the lifter. Allen Cline assured me that this is also normal. It is the part line between the wear surface of the lifter and the lifter body. The wear surface is friction welded to the body.

This is the bottom of the lifter:

You can see the hole which allows oil inside the lifter. The factory valve lift is greater than the width of the galeries which supply oil to the lifters, so they don't need continuous oil pressure in order to function. Allen Cline said that when they were introduced, they were state of the art.

Oops... I haven't taken a picture of the tool yet... I'll get to that tomorrow.

I almost made a bad mistake... I timed the right bank, then bottoned it up. I replaced the seals and springs on the left bank, then timed it and buttoned it up. I opened the right bank back up to double check something and noticed that the timing marks were way off...
Because the N* has an intermediate timing drive with strange ratios, there are funky things that go on with timing. The crank to intermediate shaft ratio is 7:5 (7 turns of crank to 5 turns of intermediate sprocket). So when you turn the engine a bit (as we did to bring each cylinder in turn to TDC), you'll have to continue to turn it until you've turned it a total of seven times in order to get the timing marks on crank and I-sprocket to line back up. I did this in between timing the right bank and timing the left bank. Anyone know what this means? Turning the crank 7 times turns the cams 3.5 times... so the right bank and left bank would have been 180 degrees out from each other. Good thing I caught that...



I know this is like over 2 years old, but the Quad 4 lifters look EXACTLY like these, I dont have any good pics, if I remember I will try to get some tomorrow, but here are what I have:

This images is larger than 102400 bytes. Click to view.
This images is larger than 102400 bytes. Click to view.
This images is larger than 102400 bytes. Click to view.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #312, 01-13-2007 08:39 AM
      I had been curious about that. Do you know the Q4 lifter bore and the distance from the tip of the valve to the base circle of the cam?

AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #313, 01-13-2007 10:41 AM
      Hello Will
I Have been at the Caddy dealer for the last 3 years. I had always though that caddy's were a little junkie. The door panels pulled, loose the motors leaked oil, trans leaked, Intake manifolds leaked, The oil filter was on the top, they had a throttle body and when they changed to MPI they still used the same style center mount T-body. Over the past 3 years I have learned that is all in the past. It ended in the early 90's.

From 96 to 99 common engine issues are the following.
The lower half leaks oil at the case halves and oil pan -- fix-- Do Not Use Gaskets--- New TriBond Sealer. Rear main seal leaks.
New seal has Metal sleeve that is pressed on to the crank with a special tool.
The ring are a low tension ring that allows the oil to get on to the top of the piston and this causes carbon build up--- Perfect Circle designed a second ring to help control this issue.
The Head bolts pull the treads out of the block-- time serts only work some times in these blocks --- the threads need to be cleaned and inspected completely-- inspect for pitting after cleaning out the thread locker--- if any pitting is found in the thread area it usually means that the block will not hold a time sert--- when drilling out the block if the material is grey and or powdery the factory time sert will not hold-- Either the thread locker has broke down the blocks or the aluminum quality was not that good---- old thread locker will bind up the threads and break then out--- I would say 50% of the blocks can not use TIMESERT time serts. GM has short blocks available for this problem or use NS300L inserts
The cams go flat--- if any circle markings are found on the lifters the cam is bad-- the circles range from 1/16 inch to about 9/16 is typical-- another sign of the cam wear is in the cam/valve covers-- it looks like casting sand and is built up on the lower sides-- when the valve covers were new the were smooth on the inside-- you can find this in the chain area of the cam cover also-- it does not wash off, but it will flake off sometimes.
The only way to fix the last two issues "block and heads" is to go with a 2000+ setup

2000+
Oil leak like previous years-- FWD RTV Sealant Procedure with Current Oil Distribution Plate TSB #03-06-01-027 - (10/06/2003)
rear main seal update Engine Oil Leak at Crankshaft Rear Main Oil Seal (Install Revised Crankshaft Rear Main Oil Seal Using Revised Rear Main Seal Installer) #05-06-01-019D - (05/12/2006)
The ring issues-- the new rings work better, but the also redesigned the pistons ---Engine Cold/Knock/Tick Noise (Replace Pistons) #03-06-01-025 - (09/02/2003
misc engine info----Information on Northstar Engine Mechanical Repairs #04-06-01-032 - (10/27/2004)

I have replaced the pistons in well over 100 engines for 2000+ and have only install 3 time serts --- I have never seen any pitting in the threads and when I drilled out the aluminum it was bright and shiny. I have never seen a bottom end fail with the exception of ingesting water "flood" or from this TSB Higher Than Expected Oil Consumption (Clean Piston Rings) #02-06-01-009C and we had a maintenance package that we performed a carbon treatment. We stopped doing it because the younger guys bent rods.


AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #314, 01-14-2007 11:20 AM
      I was thinking about the 2000+ engines and I can not remember one haed gasket that has blown. This may be because the head bolts don't pull out of the block.

befarrer (befarrer@telus.net) MSG #315, 01-14-2007 01:05 PM
      Well, I have many measurments and pictures of my 90 Quad 4 HO lifters, these have 337,000KM on them, but look pretty good, I measured everything in mm, since the engine is metric:

http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/befarrer...
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/befarrer...
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/befarrer...
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/befarrer...
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/befarrer...
This is the depth of the bottom of the lifter (not the hydraulic part that pushes the valve)to the end of the skirt:
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/befarrer...
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/befarrer...
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/befarrer...

Also, looking up the spring rates for a H.O. Quad 4:
LGO H.O.
closed- 73-79lbs @ 1.437"
open- 191-202lbs @ 1.027"

And for the LO, they arent as strong:
LD2 L.O.
closed- 66-70lbs @ 1.437"
open- 166-173lbs @ 1.027"


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #316, 01-14-2007 03:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by befarrer:
http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l199/befarrer...


The Northstar lifters measure 1.297" diameter, which is 32.94mm-- nominal 33mm lifter bore. They're 2mm smaller than Q4 units.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-14-2007).]

befarrer (befarrer@telus.net) MSG #317, 01-14-2007 08:45 PM
      Hmm, but they look identical though, must have stole the design for the N*.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #318, 01-14-2007 09:02 PM
      May have. GM's current roller follower overhead cam valvegear is common among the Northstar, Vortec 4200, Ecotec and High Feature V6. It's not a stretch to think that the previous generation of flat tappet OHC valvegear was common across several engines. I think the 3.4 TDC/DOHC started out at 35mm and went to 33mm later.

AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #319, 01-25-2007 08:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by AJxtcman:

The cams go flat--- if any circle markings are found on the lifters the cam is bad-- the circles range from 1/16 inch to about 9/16 is typical-- another sign of the cam wear is in the cam/valve covers-- it looks like casting sand and is built up on the lower sides-- when the valve covers were new the were smooth on the inside-- you can find this in the chain area of the cam cover also-- it does not wash off, but it will flake off sometimes.

Will I hope your project is going along. I have some new lifter pictures of the common failure. 90% of the time it is the EXH side.








ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #320, 01-28-2007 06:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by AJxtcman:

Will I hope your project is going along. I have some new lifter pictures of the common failure. 90% of the time it is the EXH side.







I wonder if that's what happens when you use Mobil 1.....

They were obviously designed to rotate to create even wear across the lobe and lifter surface, but there shouldn't even BE any wear if the oil is doing it's job. Obviously something with the ILSAC starburst like Mobil 1 might not provide sufficient ZDDP to prevent excessive wear. People using CHRF's springs should choose oil carefully.


AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #321, 01-28-2007 08:15 PM
      I completely forgot to get a picture of the insides of the valve covers to show the metal. I washed them in my spray cabinet parts washer and most of the metal is still in-tacked.

1fastcaddy (ku_ace@yahoo.com) MSG #322, 04-22-2007 08:38 PM
      bump it up cause my 96 is comming together slowly but surely. Drew



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #323, 04-23-2007 10:50 PM
      Got new job, climbing out of debt. I expect to proceed in June timeframe.

Steven Snyder (fiero@steventsnyder.com) MSG #324, 06-10-2007 01:30 AM
      Bump!

It's June!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #325, 06-10-2007 09:40 AM
      I've placed an order for 11.5:1 pistons... there goes another G...

AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #326, 06-10-2007 11:20 AM
      Hmmmmm.
.
I was under the impression that one of the major root causes of all head gasket failure is detonation. I had an 11 to 1 engine with a 4 bolt head that would blow a head gasket every time it detonated!
.
This was a cast Iron block and head, V8 with 10 head bolts. I blew 3 head gasket in about 200 miles. The block was true and the head was also. I was working at AC specialties and the only fix for my car was to O-ring the block. I lived in the Start of the Columbia Gorge and the start of the Cascades. I would have a 1000 feet of altitude change in about a mile. I would be climbing a hill and hear a Ping for about 5 seconds or less and that was all it took. I tried FelPro, Victor, and Detroit head gaskets.
A SBC could with stand more detonation because it had more head bolts.
.
Good luck.
.
How far can you mill the heads with out changing Cam timing?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #327, 06-11-2007 01:59 PM
      The Northstar is not a SBC.

The head bolt threads for a SBC are in the deck surface. They tension, and thus deform, the cylinder walls when tightened. The cylinder wall loading, and thus cylinder wall deformation change throughout the 4 cycles of the engine. The whole structure of the engine just "moves around" a lot compared to a modern engine like, say... a Northstar.

In the Northstar, the headbolt threads are deep in the outer wall of the block. Since it's an open deck block, tension in the outer wall translates to compression on the inner wall. The loading on the bore wall doesn't change much with the various loading conditions of the engine... the block/head interface is much more stable than it is on an older engine like a Chevy. The torque + angle head bolt tightening procedure also yields tighter, more consistent clamp loads than on an older engine.

I'm also going to be using Cometic MLS headgaskets.

LS2's only have 4 bolts per cylinder and they're running 10.9 on a bigger bore than the Northstar, with a more flexible cylinder head. LS7's are running 11:1 on an even bigger bore. I think the comparatively small bore Northstar will be just fine.

Any decking of the heads or block alters cam timing. How much can be figured out by looking at the pitch diameter of the cam sprockets and the amount decked. The cam sprockets get redrilled for cam timing changes anyway... it shouldn't be a problem to have them redrilled to compensate for machining of the block surface.


AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #328, 06-11-2007 07:35 PM
      The Engine I was refering to was not a SBC, But when I did reference the SBC it was the say that they did not have the same known head gasket issue.
The engine was a race trim 340 in a race car. 3" tire on the front 10.5" on the rear. plastic side windows the whole bit. 69 dart. I saw the same issue with fords also
I worked at a machine shop that mainly did Chevy work, so flaws of other makes was pointed out.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #329, 06-11-2007 08:55 PM
      I know SBC's have five (and BBC's have 6!), but there are lots of engines with four that hold lots of cylinder pressure (big block Cadillacs, for instance). Hondas and lots of imports have 4 head bolts/cylinder.

AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #330, 06-12-2007 07:28 AM
      Honda
They don't blow head gaskets


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #331, 06-12-2007 07:47 AM
      No, never.

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #332, 06-19-2007 02:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I've placed an order for 11.5:1 pistons... there goes another G...


Details?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #333, 06-20-2007 07:20 AM
      The Ross pistons were heavier than I'd like. I didn't think about compression enough when I ordered the first set of CP's with deeper than stock valve reliefs. I ordered these with the same valve reliefs, but a net +3.5 cc dome. The grooves are cut for the diamond lapped TS rings that I bought. I'm going to have these coated ceramic tops & moly skirts.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-20-2007).]

mrgrimes (dgarrett@ethandiesel.com) MSG #334, 06-20-2007 06:08 PM
      Will, Alan Johnson sells a pistion when combind with a .040 gasket will produce 11.8:1 Did you port your cylinder cambers, if so what did they cc at? I received my 12:1 CP pistons and will be interested to see how yours turn out.

Darrin


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #335, 06-20-2007 07:20 PM
      I know Alan has pistons. His prices are competitive with what you can assemble from other aftermarket MFG's. I just wanted to do it my way. I'm going to be setting up .035 quench. When I get a heads/cams package, compression will go up to 12.5.

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #336, 06-21-2007 12:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

The Ross pistons were heavier than I'd like. I didn't think about compression enough when I ordered the first set of CP's with deeper than stock valve reliefs. I ordered these with the same valve reliefs, but a net +3.5 cc dome. The grooves are cut for the diamond lapped TS rings that I bought. I'm going to have these coated ceramic tops & moly skirts.



So what are you doing with the old pistons? Didn't you pay to get the Ross pistons coated too? What did the CR work out to be with them? Also, have you posted what the actual weights were of your different pistons you've got around? Did you ever figure out the crank balance issue you were having way back?

I know it's a lot of questions, I'm a curious fella.

Bryce


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #337, 06-21-2007 04:04 PM
      Good thing you're not a cat.

I had the Ross pistons coated. They had standard ring grooves. I've already sold them. The first set of CP's has also been coated. Compression with them would have been in the low 10's. Stock is 10.5. I didn't think about it the way I should have, but I'm not going to all this trouble to build an all motor engine with less compression than stock. If I get a wild enough hair (hare?), I may build a 10:1 engine and put about 10 psi on it... Otherwise those pistons will sit on my shelf until someone wants them. Their utility is a bit limited because the grooves are cut for diamond lapped rings which are of course a little thinner than standard rings.

However... they may end up being just right for the Sealed Power rings which have very good thickness tolerancing for an OTS ring. I'll have to see what the groove width comes out to...


Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #338, 06-21-2007 05:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Good thing you're not a cat.


Indeed! So, did you ever figure out where you went wrong on the balance? Have you kept your piston weights written down somewhere? I was hoping to have that documented in here somewhere for future reference. I don't know why, just seems like it may be useful to somebody someday, maybe even me. Thanks for the update.

Bryce



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #339, 06-21-2007 10:22 PM
      The crank that got F@#%ed up was the result of a miscommunication between myself and the shop and the balancer's lack of experience with that sort of work (lathe vice drill).

There isn't anything *wrong* with the current balance setup. I just need to figure out why my math isn't giving the same result as the measurement. The measurement is perfectly valid... but also on hold because the piston weight will change yet again.


toddshotrods (info@toddperkinsdesign.com) MSG #340, 07-09-2007 01:17 AM
      Edit - found what I was looking for in WAWUZAT's thread



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #341, 07-09-2007 05:42 PM
      Daggonit, I was just going to post that the bottom of the oil manifold (plate between lower crank case & oil pan) was flat and only had the heads of the main bolts sticking through it.

toddshotrods (info@toddperkinsdesign.com) MSG #342, 07-10-2007 01:09 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Daggonit, I was just going to post that the bottom of the oil manifold (plate between lower crank case & oil pan) was flat and only had the heads of the main bolts sticking through it.


I appreciate the intent to answer Actually, you told me something that wasn't obvious in his pics. He has long studs protruding through instead of bolt heads. I should be able to wack quite a bit off the overall height.

I'm sure I'll still have questions when I start rebuilding it. I am going to study you guys' threads first.

Edit - I forgot to ask - so you think my two-stage dry sump will work?



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #343, 07-10-2007 06:48 AM
      The early engines through '95 have stud headed bolts at all locations in the inner two rows. The windage tray bolts to these studs. In the (I think) '96 and later engines, the windage tray was redesigned to bolt under the heads of all 20 main bolts. The stud headed bolts were replaced by conventional bolts except for one location which is where the oil pickup support bolts.

toddshotrods (info@toddperkinsdesign.com) MSG #344, 07-10-2007 06:36 PM
      Thanks Will, I have a 2000 motor.

Sorry for jacking your tread


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #345, 07-22-2007 09:13 PM
      I'm thinking of some changes to make to my accessory drive, so I wanted to remind myself where this thread with pics of the front of the engine is...

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...020208-2-012465.html


mrgrimes (dgarrett@ethandiesel.com) MSG #346, 08-07-2007 01:53 AM
      Hi Will,

Have you ever looked into a after market harmonic balancer? It looks like the small block ford as the same snout diamiter.

Darrin


Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #347, 08-21-2007 04:42 PM
      Any update Will?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #348, 08-21-2007 09:31 PM
      Shipping two spacecraft to the launch site this weekend and going to South America to put them back together for a week after.

IOW... working crazy hours and been so busy I don't know whether to wipe my @$$ or scratch my nose (or vice versa).

Plus side... I'm salary plus overtime, so I have more money for parts (or credit card debt).


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #349, 08-21-2007 09:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mrgrimes:

Hi Will,

Have you ever looked into a after market harmonic balancer? It looks like the small block ford as the same snout diamiter.

Darrin


I hadn't. There's nothing wrong with the stock one. It doesn't carry nearly as much of the engine's MOI as the flywheel and can be replaced with the engine in the car should I find a suitable replacement. It's also the crank pulley, provides the clamp load on the oil pump drive sleeve and has the journal on which the front main seal runs.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #350, 08-31-2007 01:28 PM
      ALWAYS DOUBLE CHECK EVERYONE'S NUMBERS, EVEN YOUR OWN!

CP was about to make me pistons with a net 11+ cc dome... I had to be very assertive in convincing them to recheck their numbers... hello 13.5 compression.

The real number is a NET ~3.5 cc dome for 11.5 compression.


AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #351, 09-02-2007 02:33 PM
      What size pin are you using?
You are using the the Eagle rods?

93-99
DIMENSION
Comp. Ht. Inch. 1.256
C. Ratio 10.3:1
Pin. Dia. Inch 0.8658

SIZES
STD, .25, .50
.
.
.


'00-03
Flat top.
1.250" CH.
Anodized head.
.8266 pin dia.
.
.
.
late 03 FWD to current... 04 RWD to current
Piston Pin Diameter 0.9053-0.9055 in

4.4L S/C
Piston Pin Diameter 0.9448-0.9449 in



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #352, 09-03-2007 01:30 AM
      I'm using the standard piston pin diameter but with CP supplied pins which are shorter and lighter than the GM pins.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-03-2007).]

AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #353, 09-03-2007 12:31 PM
      GM uses 3 pin sizes in FWD 4.6L
I am wondering what rods you are using?
I like the GM rods and have a lot of sets, but I may build a 00 engine. I have soooooo much more I can do with the PCM.


jstricker (jstricke@rwisp.com) MSG #354, 09-03-2007 01:31 PM
      As near as I can tell, GM doesn't sell the pins separately, do they? My manuals show them as NS, only available in a piston assembly. If you have a good p/n for the first generation pins I'd be interested.

John Stricker
 
quote
Originally posted by AJxtcman:

GM uses 3 pin sizes in FWD 4.6L
I am wondering what rods you are using?
I like the GM rods and have a lot of sets, but I may build a 00 engine. I have soooooo much more I can do with the PCM.




Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #355, 09-03-2007 10:11 PM
      I'm not using any '00 or later hardware. Eagle rods are for '99 and older pins.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-03-2007).]

AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #356, 09-04-2007 02:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I'm not using any '00 or later hardware. Eagle rods are for '99 and older pins.



Thanks
The only rods avalible are 99?
I have not looked for them.
I have only one set of the 99 and prior.
Now what size pin is the best? smaller or bigger?
Smaller is or can be lighter, but the surface area is less.
The larger has more surface area, but is heavier.
The S/C motor uses a large pin.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #357, 09-04-2007 05:21 PM
      The Eagle rods were made for the '99 and older engines... before the Y2K engines even came out. Since they all have the same bearing bore diameter and length, only the pin is different.

Dunno the design considerations behind going to a smaller pin on Y2K engines, but they did go to a bigger pin for the SC engines as you observe.

I wanted Hank the Crank ceramic piston pins, but they went out of business or something.


ryan.hess (ryan.h@excite.com) MSG #358, 09-04-2007 07:34 PM
      probably related to in cylinder pressures/torque.

If you're going high revving low torque, you can get away with a smaller wrist pin. High torque (esp supercharged!) requires larger pin to reach 100k mile reliability.

I think the 2000+ engines might have been originally designed with a higher rev limiter than the <99's


AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #359, 09-04-2007 08:01 PM
      DIMENSIONS
93-99 Pin. dia. Inch 0.8658
00-03 pin. dia. Inch 0.8266
03-08 pin. dia. Inch 0.9053-0.9055 This is from the late 03 engine update
4.4L Pin Diameter 0.9448-0.9449
.
4.6L info
Connecting Rod Length Center to Center 5.9449 in
Connecting Rod Bore Diameter - Bearing End 2.2495-2.2501 in
Width 0.8572 in
.
I am just throwing this out. I am not sure what is the best way to go. Big pin dia with light weight aftermarket pin? The rods all look the same just the small end is different. Maybe the next engine I build for my self. hmmmmm.



AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #360, 09-05-2007 01:57 PM
      Does the wrist pin size affect dwell time? I can't remember. long rod vs short rod. big pin vs little pin. Hmmm I am way to old to think any more.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #361, 09-05-2007 02:55 PM
      The pin diameter does not. Rod length does. With a 5.943 rod and 3.307 stroke, the Northstar already has a reasonably good rod/stroke ratio (1.8:1).

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #362, 01-25-2008 02:01 PM
      You still alive Will?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #363, 01-25-2008 02:04 PM
      11.5 pistons are done and coated. Don't know what the delay was.

Will have weights Monday and be contuing the balance math effort afterward.


Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #364, 02-22-2008 05:13 PM
      Just stopping by for my monthly checkup!

Bryce


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #365, 02-22-2008 05:22 PM
      Have pics of the pistons. They came out slightly heavier than the flat tops.
CP pins are actually about 7 g heavier than stock pins, which was surprising.
I'm deciding if that's worth using stock pins (need to talk to Alan Johnson about how fast I can spin with those). If I use the stock pins, I'll send the CP's back (finally a little financial relief).
I haven't had time to go through the balancing math to reconcile what I think with what the balancer says he reads, so I'm still stalled at that gate.
Just finished the midterm in my Systems class, so I might be able to look at that this weekend... or not, I've got about a billion other things demanding my time also.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-22-2008).]

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #366, 03-20-2008 03:52 PM
      Any good numbers get crunched yet?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #367, 03-20-2008 05:47 PM
      I crunched numbers. I've been trying to get in touch with the crank shop. I've left a phone message, but I need to call during working hours tomorrow.

gunslinger MSG #368, 07-10-2008 01:43 PM
      It has been 10 pages long and 5years later and this engine is not done rebuilding as yet,all I am reading is just a bunch of technical jargon associated with reinventing the wheel.

When are we going to see some result of all this super N*?


hookdonspeed (hookdonspeed@gmail.com) MSG #369, 07-10-2008 07:51 PM
      yea.. thats a LONG time to rebuild an engine lol, i hope this thing puts out over 1k HP when its done, else im not sure it would have been worth the time...


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #370, 07-11-2008 08:11 AM
      Hehe...

It's slow going. I have a lot more going on in my life than an engine right now. I've got everything but the crank. The crank is at the balance shop and I'm working through things with the shop owner. He's never done this before the way I want it done, so it's going to have to be a careful process.



Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #371, 07-11-2008 07:55 PM
      I can't knock you Will, I've been doing my N* conversion for almost as long as your engine rebuild has been going on. For the record, if we were racing, you'd be winning.

Bryce


Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #372, 08-06-2008 04:00 PM
      Any update on the fancy crank balancing act?

Bryce


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #373, 08-06-2008 10:07 PM
      I gave the shop the data to take the first cut, but they have email issues. I was going to call back this morning but I got sucked into a morning meeting that turned into an all day meeting. I should have time tomorrow.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #374, 08-21-2008 08:45 AM
      The shop was delayed due to the tropical storm...

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #375, 09-17-2008 10:24 PM
      Got the info back from the first cut... I calc'd what the second cut should be and will try to get that info to the shop tomorrow.

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #376, 10-22-2008 01:37 PM
      Any update?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #377, 10-22-2008 02:27 PM
      Progress is slow but happening.

2nd cut has been made.

Crank will be shot blasted and journals will be cut today or tomorrow.

Straightening out a slight discrepancy in component weights before the final balance.

When it's done, you'll hear me hoot 'n holler.


Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #378, 10-22-2008 04:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Progress is slow but happening.

2nd cut has been made.

Crank will be shot blasted and journals will be cut today or tomorrow.

Straightening out a slight discrepancy in component weights before the final balance.

When it's done, you'll hear me hoot 'n holler.


Post a vid of it running with sound will suffice ..you can hoot an holler on the vid too


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #379, 10-22-2008 04:54 PM
      I've been musing about anodizing the block. I don't think it's appropriate to try to do it myself, though. Anybody know a shop that can handle a piece that large?

KurtAKX MSG #380, 10-22-2008 05:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I've been musing about anodizing the block. I don't think it's appropriate to try to do it myself, though. Anybody know a shop that can handle a piece that large?


What's the value add there?

If you're genuinely worried about corrosion, there are alternatives to anodizing like the Sanchem Safegard CC 6100. The stuff will add a mil-spec corrosion resistance to exposed aluminum parts on vehicles like HMVees. It goes on as a multi-step process after you clean the block with boat pontoon cleaner or other similar mild acid wash with a pH of about 3.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #381, 10-22-2008 06:27 PM
      Both corrosion and appearance.
I don't want it to be some unseemly color, but I don't want it to look like old weathered aluminum that's had 15 years of exposure to road grime either.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #382, 10-23-2008 09:01 AM
      Thanks for the tip... I looked the stuff up and it looks interesting...

http://www.sanchem.com/safegard_cc_types.html



Marvin McInnis MSG #383, 10-23-2008 02:20 PM
      I presume you have considered the Alodine chromate conversion coating process as well. It is well proven and easy to apply even in a small shop.

[This message has been edited by Marvin McInnis (edited 10-23-2008).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #384, 11-07-2008 11:55 AM
      Crank's done and on the way.

AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #385, 11-08-2008 09:12 AM
      Will take a look at the products from this company. They heave products for internal and external.

http://www.techlinecoatings.com/index.htm


Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #386, 11-10-2008 10:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Crank's done and on the way.


So...what did the final before/after weight come out to? MOI? Dare I ask what you ended up paying for all that fancy balancing? I figured you'd post the details up once you got it done...perhaps you're waiting to get your hands on it, I wouldn't blame you, especially considering you're having the crank shipped.

Bryce


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #387, 11-11-2008 08:56 AM
      I don't have my notes in front of me, but the shop took all the data I wanted. They couldn't measure MOI, so I'll have to be contented with calculating a delta MOI.

Tilton claims that a Chevy flexplate and Chevy crankshaft have the same MOI, so a modest reduction in MOI on a crankshaft isn't such a big deal. However, I wanted to get the shortblock basically as built as it can be so I never have to tear it down to try anything new.

The end product that I intend will be a spreadsheet capable of calculating the correct cut depth a priori from a few (or several) measurements on the crankshaft (start angle, stop angle, thickness and outside radius of counterweights; angular location, diameter & depth of pre-existing balance holes; imbalance of initial spin; etc.). In theory, a shop that knew how to do that could offer a lathe trimmed balance service for only half again as much as a conventional balance job. I might even be able to get pretty close using just the change in bobweight instead of an initial spin...




Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #388, 11-18-2008 11:54 AM
      As of Saturday I have all my parts back. I picked up the block, previous ruined crank, homemade torque plate, sample cylinder heads (torqued to the block for align honing) and both new sets of pistons on Friday. Fedex dropped the crank off on Saturday.

I am not happy about how the crank was packed. It was in a plastic bag in a great big box... and that was it. The snout of the crank had punched a hole through the box, the teeth of the trigger wheel had punched through the bag, etc. I have not yet had the oppotunity to clean the cosmoline off of it to check the journals, although they did look ok through the cosmoline. <sigh>


Fiero STS (onesupermech@netscape.net) MSG #389, 11-18-2008 12:09 PM
      Hope the crankshaft is OK. I have been watching your build thread for quite some time. I am interested to see how this all comes together. Also will be nice to see if all of your improvements yield a substantial increase in net horsepower and longevity. Your next challenge will be to find a transmission with the proper gearing and torque capacity to handle your new engine parameters.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #390, 11-18-2008 01:11 PM
      I hope it's ok, too

For now I'll continue to use the modified V6 flywheel and Spec stage III. I'll also continue using the 282 I just built with 2.19 2nd and 1.03 4th. I'm just going to switch it over to the 3.94 final. Eventual switch to a Tilton 2 disc setup will take most of the inertial shock loading out of the system and free up about 50 dynamic HP in 1st gear. If I ever blow that up, I've got a 284 on the shelf.


Coinage (ldwrestling80@comcast.net) MSG #391, 11-18-2008 08:03 PM
      Im selling my QM twin disk setup with button flywheel... too bad its for the 4sp

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #392, 11-18-2008 08:31 PM
      I was planning to build a button flywheel anyway.

I also don't know enough about the differences in clearances between the 282 bellhousing and the Muncie bellhousing... I'm pretty sure I can pack a Tilton setup into a 282 bellhousing, but it ends up TIGHT.

How long have you been selling that?


Coinage (ldwrestling80@comcast.net) MSG #393, 11-18-2008 11:11 PM
      I love the setup...wish I could keep it, because its so badass/rare. What really sucks is that more likely than not,nobody is going to pay what it is worth.

I tried selling it once before awhile back. No bites then, and no bites now. ugh.

Awesome build by the way!

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

Sucks triple didnt work out.

[This message has been edited by Coinage (edited 11-18-2008).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #394, 11-19-2008 07:31 AM
      I'll take it under advisement. Send me an email at my profile address with the QM part numbers. I need to look up their design drawings. Got a closer pic of the flywheel? Did you make it yourself?

With Tilton components, the stack height of a triple disk sintered iron clutch is the same as a double disk cerametallic or organic... not that the triple is even remotely necessary, as the two disk cerametallic with a soft spring was rated for 550 ftlbs. The triple would just be harder to modulate than the double.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-19-2008).]

Coinage (ldwrestling80@comcast.net) MSG #395, 11-19-2008 12:19 PM
      I need to get so more pictures at some point, its on the motor/tranny right now so it will be a few days until I can yank it apart. Anything in particular you wanted pictures of? Flywheel is a QM unit as well.

With the QM unit, the stack height is a good bit different from a twin to triple. I don't recall exactly how much, but with the twin, I use a different housing and just take a floater out and the center disk.

email sent.
Matt


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #396, 11-20-2008 09:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Coinage:

With the QM unit, the stack height is a good bit different from a twin to triple. I don't recall exactly how much, but with the twin, I use a different housing and just take a floater out and the center disk.


Can you clarify that? Thanks.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #397, 12-04-2008 04:46 PM
      I've got all the parts to put the short block together now. I'm probably not going to have time until early next year.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #398, 02-23-2009 02:58 PM
      Can this be moved over to "The Construction Zone"?

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #399, 02-24-2009 02:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Can this be moved over to "The Construction Zone"?


Only if you post pictures of you assembling the engine.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #400, 02-25-2009 09:49 AM
      We'll see about that. I may just turn all the parts into modern art.

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #401, 02-25-2009 04:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

We'll see about that. I may just turn all the parts into modern art.


This thread is over five years old. Would that count as modern?

Bryce


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #402, 02-25-2009 05:40 PM
      I just lined out time on my calendar at the end of April to put the engine together. Satisfied?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-25-2009).]

motoracer838 (jmartin@musicunveiled.com) MSG #403, 02-25-2009 07:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I just lined out time on my calendar at the end of April to put the engine together. Satisfied?



What year?

Joe


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #404, 03-21-2009 09:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by motoracer838:

What year?

Joe


Q2, 2012. That's after we transition the rocket my group is currently working on from the development business unit to the production business unit.

Actually, thanks to the house purchase and moving dates not happening as expected, I should be able to clean and QC the components in the 2nd weekend of April.


KurtAKX MSG #405, 03-21-2009 10:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Q2, 2012. That's after we transition the rocket my group is currently working on from the development business unit to the production business unit.

Actually, thanks to the house purchase and moving dates not happening as expected, I should be able to clean and QC the components in the 2nd weekend of April.


Are you working for XCOR?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #406, 03-21-2009 10:46 PM
      Nope.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-21-2009).]

ClayTonto (acecwilson@yahoo.com) MSG #407, 03-22-2009 12:18 AM
      I admire your patience and determination. This is going to be a sweet engine though.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #408, 04-16-2009 02:22 PM
      Got out the parts to clean and QC last weekend, but had too many other things going on and wasn't able to get that job done. It'll be a serious trick to get the parts cleaned, QC'd and assembled this weekend so that I can measure the piston decks and get the appropriate head gaskets ordered. I hope I can read a micrometer after going 48 hours with no sleep.

Once the gaskets are ordered, production + shipping time should get them to me on or about May 1st. I have the weekend of the 9th lined out for cleaning and installing the heads and timing drive and buttoning up the long block.


motoracer838 (jmartin@musicunveiled.com) MSG #409, 04-16-2009 08:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Q2, 2012. That's after we transition the rocket my group is currently working on from the development business unit to the production business unit.

Actually, thanks to the house purchase and moving dates not happening as expected, I should be able to clean and QC the components in the 2nd weekend of April.


Damn, I always suspected you were a rocket scientist!

Joe


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #410, 04-17-2009 11:46 AM
      Just the last two years.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #411, 04-20-2009 10:47 AM
      I partially QC'd many of the components over the weekend: Piston diameter, pin bores in pistons and rods, pin diameters, crank journals. I couldn't snag the right bore mic or dial bore gauges for the weekend, but I think I should be able to next weekend. What remains is piston groove widths, main bearing bore ID's, main bearing ID's, rod bearing bore ID's, rod bearing ID's, cylinder bore ID's and crank runout.

I am NOT happy with the work on the crank journals. I've measured .0005 out of round on a main and .0005 taper on a rod journal. Considering that I've measured a stock crank with 100,000 miles that was PEFECT to the .0001 at all locations, I'm not impressed. I expected better from a "performance" crank shop. This isn't a super tight clearance Honda rod Nascar engine, so the journal weirdness shouldn't be a problem on this build due to the relatively wide clearances I'll be running, but I'm still annoyed.

Total Seal's diamond finish rings don't live up to their propaganda either.

I would have been able to get the whole thing done, but I had to help my dad cut up the floor in his garage to unearth the old cess pit over which the garage was built. It's about 9 feet in diameter and 7 feet deep. We drilled holes in the floor, planted anchors, attached the anchors to the chain hoist, cut slabs out and lifted them out of the floor. Gotta get it filled with something before cutting the rest of the floor out and pouring a new floor.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-20-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #412, 04-20-2009 02:04 PM
      Mental note: also need to gap rings.

Yes, one must gap gapless rings.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #413, 04-24-2009 11:33 AM
      Oh yeah... the crank guy ALSO shot peened the rear main seal surface. Grrr....

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #414, 04-25-2009 10:31 PM
      I got a bunch more QC work done today: rod bearings (ID and roundness), main bearings (ID and roundness), cylinder bores (ID, roundness and taper).

Still to go: gap rings, wash everything, check crank runout (potential build killer), assemble rods & pistons, install rods, pisotns and crank in block to get piston deck measurement.

I may decide to hold off on installing the rings until next weekend. I might be able to finagle use of the CMM to check ring groove widths.

Overall I'm making slower progress than I want, but I'm making progress. I should be able to meet my need date for the MLS gasket order, which is Monday.

Right now I'm crunching numbers for clearances... matching pistons to bores, rods to journals, etc.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-25-2009).]

KurtAKX MSG #415, 04-26-2009 02:46 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I may decide to hold off on installing the rings until next weekend. I might be able to finagle use of the CMM to check ring groove widths.



For fucq's sake, its critical, but its not THAT critical!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #416, 04-26-2009 08:04 AM
      When you have a ring/piston combo that's specifically matched for .001 side clearance, then it IS pretty critical.

Besides, if I don't know what I built this time, how do I know what to build next time?

What I need to do this weekend is get the pistons/rods/crank into the shortblock to get the piston deck measured so I can get my MLS gaskets ordered so I can get the quench right.


tjm4fun (tjm4fun@yahoo.com) MSG #417, 04-26-2009 10:10 AM
      Will, I applaud your efforts. You are attempting to make a diamond out of a piece of coal there! Just curious tho, are all the pistons/rods/crank wieghts balanced equally? or will you balance after the fit? I may have missed the plan for that somewhere in this thread, but with all that work and machining to those tolerances, it would be a waste not to have it precision balanced...

As a side note, with all the blocks you have around, you shoulda thrown a runner in the car just so you could enjoy the car, beat on it and note failures, at least you can get some road time on the rest of the car... just a thought... carry on!


KurtAKX MSG #418, 04-26-2009 12:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

When you have a ring/piston combo that's specifically matched for .001 side clearance, then it IS pretty critical.

Besides, if I don't know what I built this time, how do I know what to build next time?


Sure, the clearance is important, but using CMM or holomapping is like using an 8 lb sledge to put tacks in the wall for hanging pictures.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #419, 04-26-2009 12:42 PM
      Coal? The things I'm complaining about aren't *PERFECT*, but they are acceptable.

Got all the clearances sorted out; I mixed-and-matched the rods and pistons with the block and crank to give me a combination that resulted in quite uniform rod bearing and piston-bore clearances. The main clearances are within spec, although the #4 is on the tight side. One of the pistons is a little bigger and will be quite snug, even in the biggest bore. I'm going to have to make some phone calls to be sure that will be OK.

Off to get some more pipe cleaners and scour pads...

I tried installing a temp engine... it suffered a head gasket failure. Warranteed blocks are like that...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-26-2009).]

Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #420, 04-26-2009 02:41 PM
      What are you expecting from this engine??

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #421, 04-26-2009 08:34 PM
      Since I'll be using stock heads, stock cams, stock intake manifold, stock exhaust manifolds and basically EVERYTHING but the shortblock the same as my old setup, it won't be that much better... maybe as much as 20 HP. However, the built block is the foundation for future mods.

tjm4fun (tjm4fun@yahoo.com) MSG #422, 04-26-2009 08:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Coal? The things I'm complaining about aren't *PERFECT*, but they are acceptable.

I tried installing a temp engine... it suffered a head gasket failure. Warranteed blocks are like that...



Most factory engines are a rough approximation to the standards you are using. day one on the bore mill is good, day 7 not so good. hence coal. the start of a diamond. get the right engine on the right day, and it seems unnatural, a day later it is a mass of metal called an engine.
all products start as a raw material. your starting block/crank/rods etc are the coal. you are making them into a diamond.
got the drift now?
balancing?




Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #423, 04-27-2009 12:06 AM
      bleh... 'bout to assemble the last piston and rod.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #424, 04-27-2009 12:13 AM
      Balance: http://realfierotech.com/ph...topic.php?f=3&t=4522

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #425, 04-27-2009 08:18 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by KurtAKX:

Sure, the clearance is important, but using CMM or holomapping is like using an 8 lb sledge to put tacks in the wall for hanging pictures.


Eh, more like using a fracture testing apparatus capable of delivering EXACTLY xxx impact energy every time to put tacks in the wall for hanging pictures...


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #426, 04-27-2009 08:39 PM
      Feh...

While the crank was in the lathe to polish the F#@$ing shot peening out of the rear main seal journal, I went ahead and indicated the lathe chuck in and checked the crank for runout. It's less than a thou. I was somewhat concerned because the crank was shipped to me in a cardboard box full of styrofoam peanuts with NO FURTHER PACKING. Grrrr.... Oh well... no harm done except my time for making sure the other guy didn't do something stupid and screw me over.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #427, 04-27-2009 09:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by tjm4fun:
Most factory engines are a rough approximation to the standards you are using. day one on the bore mill is good, day 7 not so good. hence coal. the start of a diamond. get the right engine on the right day, and it seems unnatural, a day later it is a mass of metal called an engine.
all products start as a raw material. your starting block/crank/rods etc are the coal. you are making them into a diamond.
got the drift now?
balancing?



Haha... a Chevy is coal... The Northstar is a diamond in the rough. It's most of the way there, it just needs a highly skilled artisan with arcane knowledge of deep magic to put on the finishing touches.


Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #428, 04-28-2009 06:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:It's most of the way there, it just needs a highly skilled artisan with arcane knowledge of deep magic to put on the finishing touches.




I knew this was a Mickey Mouse job all along!!!

I can't believe you're going through all of this and you're putting a bone stock top end back onto it. You really have lost it, I think the coal dust is getting to you.

Bryce


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #429, 04-28-2009 09:24 PM
      Why do you think this build has taken so long? One does not learn deep magic overnight.

Gapped, cleaned and bagged the rings. The pistons and rods are already bagged. I just have to clean the crank and finish cleaning the block... wouldn't you know it's about 1/4" shorter than the inside of the dishwasher?

The "host ring"s for the gapless set actually had negative gap and needed a gap of .026... that's a lot of dam ring filing.

I also had a nice conversation with Kevin at Total Seal about the details of the lapping process and the proper way to orient the host ring and rail to get them to measure out correctly (ie, perfectly).


tjm4fun (tjm4fun@yahoo.com) MSG #430, 04-30-2009 12:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Balance: http://realfierotech.com/ph...topic.php?f=3&t=4522


I should have known! (that thread made my head hurt, I have't done formula work like that since I finished college 31 years ago, and don;t want to anymore) Again, you really take things to the extreme, but it's your way. I just hope you got it all right, and it performs as designed.

As for the dishwasher, I won't go there, you either are single or have the most understanding wife. I know I had to take a week of cr@p for just heating the rods in the oven with the pins in the freezer and reassembling them on the counter. and that was a long time ago...
I'll go back to watching again, carry on!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #431, 05-02-2009 08:58 AM
      All eight pistons are in. I stayed up all night Tuesday and got two in, then ran out of assembly lube, couldn't find the extra tube I'd bought ('cause I'd stayed up all night most likely) and had to go to work Wednesday.

Got back last night and got the rest in. Actually installing the pistons and rods is not that difficult... the cleaning and prep work that goes into getting there that's time consuming. I have a pile of ziploc bags two feet high from cleaning, measuring, marking, etc all the internal parts.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #432, 05-05-2009 09:15 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Nashco:
I can't believe you're going through all of this and you're putting a bone stock top end back onto it. You really have lost it, I think the coal dust is getting to you.


Maybe I have lost it, but I want to drive the damn thing.

I want to do a hard break-in on the short block.

If I change the top end components, not only will I have to rewire for tunable engine management, I'll have to take the break-in run time to tune the new combo... which means that it won't get it's hard break-in.

There's a specific combo I'm moving toward, and I'd like to do the bolt on mods (headers, throttle per cylinder) first, just to see how far I can take stock heads/cams.

The porting and cam work on a Northstar is not very well developed, so I'll be moving very carefully in that area to get the best result.


Scoobysruvenge MSG #433, 05-05-2009 10:15 AM
      Will,
Are you worried about losing low speed drivability going with 8 throttle plates or are you just looking for top end juice??????


motoracer838 (jmartin@musicunveiled.com) MSG #434, 05-05-2009 10:21 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

All eight pistons are in. I stayed up all night Tuesday and got two in, then ran out of assembly lube, couldn't find the extra tube I'd bought ('cause I'd stayed up all night most likely) and had to go to work Wednesday.

Got back last night and got the rest in. Actually installing the pistons and rods is not that difficult... the cleaning and prep work that goes into getting there that's time consuming. I have a pile of ziploc bags two feet high from cleaning, measuring, marking, etc all the internal parts.


Will, I know I've been bustin' on ya a little bit, just havin' a little fun, but we would love to see a few pics of this jewel of a lower end your assembling.

Keep up the good work. Joe



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #435, 05-05-2009 10:33 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge:

Will,
Are you worried about losing low speed drivability going with 8 throttle plates or are you just looking for top end juice??????


Actually, throttle per cylinder intakes REALLY civilize big cam engines. With one, I can go to 288, 292 or 310 cams and maintain decent low RPM torque and drivability, as well as idle quality. They are a complicated/expensive way to have your cake and eat it too.

The biggest headache is manifold pressure sensing and drawing vacuum for vacuum accessories.

I have pics.... I just haven't had time to resize, post and adequately describe things yet.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-05-2009).]

tjm4fun (tjm4fun@yahoo.com) MSG #436, 05-05-2009 11:22 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Maybe I have lost it, but I want to drive the damn thing.

I want to do a hard break-in on the short block.

If I change the top end components, not only will I have to rewire for tunable engine management, I'll have to take the break-in run time to tune the new combo... which means that it won't get it's hard break-in.


Wow, now that caught me by surprise! I did not expect you to be the type of guy who would do a hard break in...
But I do agree with that method, I have always done hard break-ins, and have never been disappointed with the results.
Always felt, I put it together, I did all the proper checks, fits, etc, there is no reason to baby it out of the stall... besides if something is flawed that did not get caught in the machining, at least everything is all setup to pull it back out again..... ( only failure was one crank that they missed an internal crack, sheared a 3.8 steel turbo crank in half at the middle joint, never dealt with that shop again)


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #437, 05-05-2009 12:43 PM
      Hard break-ins are great as long as you have enough oil filter flow capacity to remove the risk of pumping break-in debris into your bearings.

Most filters do not have enough flow capacity for the engine's max RPM oil flow and lift the bypass valve, thereby allowing unfiltered oil to circulate, and potentially break-in debris to flow into the bearings. With a filter that has enough capacity to flow the engine's full volume of oil without lifting the bypass, then the risk of pumping break-in debris to places it shouldn't go is eliminated.

The problem with doing this on a Northstar is that the engine has a HUGE oil flow (12+ gpm at high rpm) and there isn't much room for a bulky filter and large oil lines (oil ports in the block have the ID of fittings for -12 line) underneath the engine in the Fiero engine compartment.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #438, 05-05-2009 10:45 PM
      A separated view of each cylinder's worth of reciprocating components:



A domed piston. The intake side is on the left.



This is the crank sitting in the block. 1st main is on the left. At the bottom left note the channel between that small oil gallery and the one main bolt hole. At the top of main #3 (and all the other mains), note the channel connecting the two main bolt holes. You can also see the trigger wheel behind the #3 main.



This is the lower crank case, the bearings annointed with the blood of a virg--err... assembly lube.



This is the Northstar's priority main oil system cast into the bottom of the lower crank case. The bottom end of this engine maintains absolute priority for lubrication. The top end is only lubed with "leftover" oil pressure that has already gone through the bottom end. Outlined in green is the oil pickup passage whereby oil is drawn from the sump into the pump. Yellow is pressurized oil from the pump to the oil filter adapter. Red is filtered oil from the filter to the main bearings. The oil travels from the bottom of the lower crank case through the annular space AROUND the main bolts, into the channels around the main bolt holes in the picture above, and thence into the bearings.



This is the oil manifold that caps off the oil channels. It has linear seals laid into it to keep the pressurized oil where it belongs. I found out something I like about the '93 block: the circled bolt holes are NOT present in the later ('95+) oil manifolds and lower crank cases. The '93's theoretically seal better, although GM wouldn't have removed those bolt holes if they were actually useful. They probably found that they didn't actually need them, but I like having them. The discolored areas around the main bolt holes are actually steel inserts cast into the aluminum plate. They serve as wear surfaces/washers for tightening down the main bolts on an otherwise aluminum surface.



This is a diagram of the top-end oiling passages in the block. Oil that has gone through the forward main bearing goes up two galleries and into a small volume behind the timing drive intermediate sprocket. From there it goes up one more gallery to each cylinder head. There is a small channel cast into each deck surface whereby oil from the supply galleries goes into dead-end galleries to provide pressure for the secondary chain tensioners. The primary tensioner, surprisingly, has oil pressure priority equivalent to a main bearing and is pressurized by the small gallery in the lower left in the 4th picture up. The oil pickup is circled in green, the pressurized oil inlet in yellow. The pump is concentric on the crank snout and bolts on following the primary timing sprocket on the crank. The pump is driven by a sleeve that is simply clamped by the damper and is not positively driven from the crankshaft. This seems like a strange way to do things to me, but it works.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-05-2009).]

Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #439, 05-05-2009 11:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

A separated view of each cylinder's worth of reciprocating components:



A domed piston. The intake side is on the left.



This is the crank sitting in the block. 1st main is on the left. At the bottom left note the channel between that small oil gallery and the one main bolt hole. At the top of main #3 (and all the other mains), note the channel connecting the two main bolt holes.



This is the lower crank case, the bearings annointed with the blood of a virg--err... assembly lube.



This is the Northstar's priority main oil system cast into the bottom of the lower crank case. The bottom end of this engine maintains absolute priority for lubrication. The top end is only lubed with "leftover" oil pressure that has already gone through the bottom end. Outlined in green is the oil pickup passage whereby oil is drawn from the sump into the pump. Yellow is pressurized oil from the pump to the oil filter adapter. Red is filtered oil from the filter to the main bearings. The oil travels from the bottom of the lower crank case through the annular space AROUND the main bolts, into the channels around the main bolt holes in the picture above, and thence into the bearings.



This is the oil manifold that caps off the oil channels. It has linear seals laid into it to keep the pressurized oil where it belongs. I found out something I like about the '93 block: the circled bolt holes are NOT present in the later ('95+) oil manifolds and lower crank cases. The '93's theoretically seal better, although GM wouldn't have removed those bolt holes if they were actually useful. They probably found that they didn't actually need them, but I like having them. The discolored areas around the main bolt holes are actually steel inserts cast into the aluminum plate. They serve as wear surfaces/washers for tightening down the main bolts on an otherwise aluminum surface.



This is a diagram of the top-end oiling passages in the block. Oil that has gone through the forward main bearing goes up two galleries and into a small volume behind the timing drive intermediate sprocket. From there it goes up one more gallery to each cylinder head. There is a small channel cast into each deck surface whereby oil from the supply galleries goes into dead-end galleries to provide pressure for the secondary chain tensioners. The primary tensioner, surprisingly, has oil pressure priority equivalent to a main bearing and is pressurized by the small gallery in the lower left in the 4th picture up. The oil pickup is circled in green, the pressurized oil inlet in yellow. The pump is concentric on the crank snout and bolts on following the primary timing sprocket on the crank. The pump is driven by a sleeve that is simply clamped by the damper and is not positively driven from the crankshaft. This seems like a strange way to do things to me, but it works.





cool..what pistons are those??


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #440, 05-05-2009 11:21 PM
      Custom cut, based on a standard CP forging. Coatings by Calico. I didn't snap any pics of the rings... but as far as the camera can tell, they're just rings. Only my bill and my micrometer say they're special.

Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #441, 05-05-2009 11:22 PM
      they sure are pretty

I have a 94 block so it should have the same bolt holes for the lower case/manifold you mentioned, correct? If so, will 98 heads fit the block?

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 05-05-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #442, 05-05-2009 11:25 PM
      Yep... too bad I have to close them up inside an engine.

Not sure if the '94 case half would have the same holes or not. I know '95 doesn't. Pull the pan and check it out.

'98 heads will fit. Any FWD head will bolt onto any '99 and older block. The '99 and older heads should not be used with Y2K and newer pistons because those pistons do not have valve reliefs.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-05-2009).]

Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #443, 05-05-2009 11:33 PM
      well, I don't want to take it apart just yet, I want to run it for a season and then this winter I will check it out. Is that a stock crank other than being blueprinted?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #444, 05-05-2009 11:49 PM
      It's a stock crank that's had the journals cut .010 and had balance material removed via turning rather than drilling.

Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #445, 05-06-2009 01:03 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

It's a stock crank that's had the journals cut .010 and had balance material removed via turning rather than drilling.


glad to hear you can get oversize bearings ..I take it the piston is oversize as well


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #446, 05-06-2009 07:52 AM
      Chuckle... I had this discussion with Alltrbo when we were building his 350... bearings are UNDERsized

The pistons are .008 over. Since they were custom cut, I could get them whatever size I wanted. The bores cleaned up from the previous botched hone job at 3.670.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-06-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #447, 05-06-2009 11:51 AM
      Awwww junk! It's serious now.

I just ordered a set of Cometic MLS gaskets with 3.680 bore and 0.036 thickness. They should take about three days to produce and then be shipped overnight... probably have them Tuesday of next week.

I started a topic here: http://chrfab.topic-board.c...37-cams-t121.htm#418 about whether or not I will need head studs for this engine.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-06-2009).]

Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #448, 05-06-2009 02:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Chuckle... I had this discussion with Alltrbo when we were building his 350... bearings are UNDERsized

The pistons are .008 over. Since they were custom cut, I could get them whatever size I wanted. The bores cleaned up from the previous botched hone job at 3.670.



I knew you would say the bearings were undersized

I recall you having problems getting the cylinders honed properly. Did they actually bore out the cylinders? If so did they use the standard cutting tool?


Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #449, 05-06-2009 02:08 PM
      Why not go for head studs anyway? Cost?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #450, 05-06-2009 02:59 PM
      If I don't have to spend the $200 right now, why should I?

I was having issues with the Northstar hone because it's not a Chevy. The Northstars have very hard very high quality iron in the bore liners. This means that a silicon carbide stone that's normally used to hone softer Chevy blocks won't hone a Northstar bore... it'll just polish it. Northstars need to be honed with aluminum oxide stones. The initial bad hone job was done that way. The second hone job looked good, but I never ran it. I got the third and current/final(?) hone job done so that the bore would better match the rings that Total Seal had available in my bore size.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-06-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #451, 05-10-2009 10:12 PM
      I had just snugged the short block together the first time so that I could get a timely measurement of deck height. I couldn't do the final torquing and sealing because I still had to replace a couple of rod bolts. The shop overtorqued/overstretched them when checking the bearing ID. The rod bolts arrived last Friday while I was closing on the house. I installed today and put final stretch of .0055 on all rod bolts. All bolts had ARP assembly lube applied to the threads and under the heads beforehand.

The lower case half must be removed to torque rod bolts because you can't put a stretch gauge on one bolt from every rod with the case half in place.
I dug out my new in the bag case half seals. I had to look for my rear main seal for a while, but I did find it. The book calls for a dab of RTV at each end of each case seal. Two of these join the case seals to the rear main, and the other two join them to the front cover seal.
I have no idea what's wrong with the design, but apparently the only entity that can put together a Northstar without sealant between the case halves is GM's assembly line. I've heard from all directions to run a bead of Loctite 518 (same as used between the Getrag case halves) both inside AND outside the case seals... so I did. McMaster-Carr carries 50 ml tubes of the stuff for about 1/4 of what GM wants. Summit carries it for about half of what McMaster-Carr wants.
I didn't technically "need" to, but I used ARP assembly lube on the threads and under the heads of the main bolts.
The main bolts take 15 ftlbs + 65 degrees in the sequence pictured in the FSM. What GM doesn't make clear is whether they expect this to be "per bolt" or "per pass". IE, should I tighten each bolt to 15 ftlbs and then turn it 65 degrees, or should I tighten all bolts in sequence to 15 ftlbs, then turn them all 65 degrees. I chose the latter.

I'm glad I did.
Lesson learned: religiously RE-check the 15 ftlb pre-load torque for ALL main fasteners immediately prior to applying the 65 degree final load.
In following the book's sequence for the main bolts, you tighten the outer rows, then the inner rows. If you then go back over the outer rows, they will have ALL relaxed to some extent as the inner rows were tightened. If you turn the bolt next to it 65 degrees, any given bolt will also relax slightly. The last step before applying the 65 degree twist to ANY main bolt should be to re-check that it is holding 15 ftlbs.


Scoobysruvenge MSG #452, 05-11-2009 03:26 PM
      Will,
Maybe you should find a real machine shop and save yourself some money and time, because it sounds like you have had nothing but poor work done so far.....


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #453, 05-11-2009 07:27 PM
      Maybe you should find me a "real" machine shop that knows the Northstar inside and out well enough that I can turn them loose and don't need to look over their shoulders... Oh yeah, I have to be able to afford their work also.

Northstar's just a tough engine to build. I also thought it was odd that the bolts would be overtorqued, but the sheet that Eagle sent me with the replacement rod bolts listed the stretch specs for several different types of ARP bolts. The 3/8" ARP 2000 bolts in the Northstar rods get tightened to 43 ftlbs and stretch .0055. The 7/16" L-19 rod bolts used presumably in BBC rods get tightened to 78 ftlbs and stretch .0077. Many rod bolts have stretch specs between .006 and .007. It's an understandable mistake than only very specific knowledge of the application could prevent.

Got shipping confirmation on the head gaskets, so I should get them tomorrow.

Got one of the heads apart and run through the parts/dish washer. I should be able to do the other one tonight and then run them both through again with the exhaust sides down. The exhaust sides of the heads are incredibly oily thanks to the issues I had with the first build.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-11-2009).]

Scoobysruvenge MSG #454, 05-12-2009 08:58 AM
      Will,

It has been my experience that a good machine shop will have a proprietor that has a degree as a machinist, there is a lot more to it than learning to run a mill or a lathe, there is also a lot of metallurgy that goes along with one of these degrees. A well trained machinist should have recognized when his tools are wearing excessively for a given job, not because he’s worried about you, because he has to pay to replace that expensive tool he’s wearing out on your block.
It looks like you are trying to do a meticulous job on your engine, and I know that a precision assembly on a stock engine yields big gains in reliability as well as HP and knowing you Will, I would have thought you would have been absolutely livid after they screwed up the fist time and found someone else to do the work.
I am enjoying seeing you wrestle with this project, and I will keep tuned in.


tjm4fun (tjm4fun@yahoo.com) MSG #455, 05-12-2009 12:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
...........
I didn't technically "need" to, but I used ARP assembly lube on the threads and under the heads of the main bolts.
The main bolts take 15 ftlbs + 65 degrees in the sequence pictured in the FSM. What GM doesn't make clear is whether they expect this to be "per bolt" or "per pass". IE, should I tighten each bolt to 15 ftlbs and then turn it 65 degrees, or should I tighten all bolts in sequence to 15 ftlbs, then turn them all 65 degrees. I chose the latter.

I'm glad I did.
Lesson learned: religiously RE-check the 15 ftlb pre-load torque for ALL main fasteners immediately prior to applying the 65 degree final load.
In following the book's sequence for the main bolts, you tighten the outer rows, then the inner rows. If you then go back over the outer rows, they will have ALL relaxed to some extent as the inner rows were tightened. If you turn the bolt next to it 65 degrees, any given bolt will also relax slightly. The last step before applying the 65 degree twist to ANY main bolt should be to re-check that it is holding 15 ftlbs.


IIRC, when doing arp fasteners, without the guage, they want you to tighten and loosen 3x, and the instructions state that for one thing it is to even out and force out excess lube. I never researched if that is a big factor tho, I just followed the instructions, as they do know what the design point is for their studs/bolts.
Sounds like you did the right thing on the mains, last motor I did that had tty bolts/studs I went round and rechecked the initial torque about 5 times, the last time I actually took a short break before going back to it and degreeing them in. That is one of the biggest issues with aluminum/alloy blocks, so your time there is well spent. Personally I don't like tty, but with the expansion factors of these materials, I understand it is the only way to maintain proper spec. besides, what's another tool in the box.... I have so many obscure ones already...


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #456, 05-12-2009 12:31 PM
      Torque + Angle is NOT Torque To Yield

15 ftlbs + 65 degrees on a 5 inch long bolt is T+A.
15 ftlbs + 120 degrees on a 1.5 inch bolt is TTY.
The first is a N* main bolt, the second is a factory N* rod bolt

Everything I've read about consistent torque of rod bolts has to do with making sure that a given torque equates to a desired stretch. If you're measuring stretch directly, it all goes out the window. The lube is only necessary to reduce friction and make it easier to pull on the wrench to get the stretch you want.


Scoobysruvenge MSG #457, 05-12-2009 03:40 PM
      Will,

I get where you are going with the rod bolt stretch measurement, but I have some questions, if you are going by stretch measurements alone then how can you properly load the bearing? What I mean is that the rod and cap need a specific torque range to ensure that the hole stays round, too much torque and the journal becomes egg shaped horizontally and not enough the journal becomes egg shaped vertically. How did you come up with the stretch measurement?
Did you buy some extra rod bolts and torque them to the desired ftlbs and measure the stretch of the bolt and then used that measurement to stretch the others to the desired measurement? Or is there an ARP chart for the bolts that you bought to convert stretch into a torque value?
The lubrication of every nut and bolt that receives a torque spec is a must, this is so critical according to multiple manuals I own that if it is forgotten that the engine component in question must be taken apart and re-assembled, they also state that torque and stretch specs should be reduced by 10% when using a mulisulfide lube and 5% for machine oil.
I will be performing similar measurements in the near future and I am curious to see how this all comes out. Keep up the Hard work..


Scoobysruvenge MSG #458, 05-12-2009 03:55 PM
      Let me clarify, is the chart an ARP chart and if it is not how reliable is it?

On the lube subject all OEM torque specs are dry specs with no lube.


sanderson (sanderson23@grandecom.net) MSG #459, 05-12-2009 04:56 PM
      This is informative. It would seem that the manufacturer needs to say how many thousandths to stretch the bolt

http://www.carcraft.com/tec...tch_tool/index1.html

[This message has been edited by sanderson (edited 05-12-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #460, 05-12-2009 06:30 PM
      Stretch is the PRIMARY indicator of clamp load. All bolts are springs with a spring rate of Young's Modulus.

Torque is simply a WAG at bolt stretch and for torque to accurately indicate bolt stretch, a whole lot of domino(e)s have to be lined up: correct number of torque cycles, burnished threads, correct lubricant, calibrated precision torque wrench, etc. I simply bought a stretch gauge and bypassed all of that.

One thing I didn't do is mic each rod bolt for my quality records.


sanderson (sanderson23@grandecom.net) MSG #461, 05-12-2009 06:30 PM
      This has bolt stretch for various ARP bolts

http://www.arp-bolts.com/Tech/TechTorque.html


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #462, 05-12-2009 06:31 PM
      !@#$

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-12-2009).]

sanderson (sanderson23@grandecom.net) MSG #463, 05-12-2009 06:46 PM
      No disagreement here. We stretch bolts all the time in the oil refinery to get consistent clamping loads. It's the method of choice for high pressure and large rotating equipment.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #464, 05-12-2009 10:17 PM
      Head gaskets arrived today. I was advised on CHRF's Northstar forum to use head studs, which for an idiotic reason I didn't get ordered today... I'll have to wait until Thursday to torque the heads down. I'll set the heads in place, hang them with a couple of snug bolts and build the timing drive, seal up the bottom end/front cover and install flywheel/clutch tomorrow (@$$uming I can find my stash of 12.9 flywheel bolts). Thursday I'll see about getting the trans apart and the 3.94 gears installed. I already have a great grip and the short 2nd and 4th in it. I'll also have to find my stash of 12.9 ring gear bolts.



Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #465, 05-12-2009 11:35 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Head gaskets arrived today. I was advised on CHRF's Northstar forum to use head studs, which for an idiotic reason I didn't get ordered today... I'll have to wait until Thursday to torque the heads down. I'll set the heads in place, hang them with a couple of snug bolts and build the timing drive, seal up the bottom end/front cover and install flywheel/clutch tomorrow (@$$uming I can find my stash of 12.9 flywheel bolts). Thursday I'll see about getting the trans apart and the 3.94 gears installed. I already have a great grip and the short 2nd and 4th in it. I'll also have to find my stash of 12.9 ring gear bolts.



Got any spare flywheel bolts that would work on a spec AL flywheel? What is the reason Alan gave for using headstuds? I used them on my rodeck and never had a problem blowing gaskets with 800hp ( boosted ) on tap


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #466, 05-13-2009 12:41 AM
      Even if I can't find my stash, I'll have bolts. I ordered a box of 50 from Lawson. I'll mail you a set.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #467, 05-13-2009 12:55 AM
      I was playing with the serpentine belt and I believe I've had my Eureka moment regarding how to fix the accessory drive. Now if I can just find the exact tensioner I'll need to make it work...

Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #468, 05-13-2009 02:55 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Even if I can't find my stash, I'll have bolts. I ordered a box of 50 from Lawson. I'll mail you a set.

Thanks Will , I'll PM you with my address. Let me know how you want payment sent

[This message has been edited by Erik (edited 05-13-2009).]

Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #469, 05-13-2009 03:03 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I was playing with the serpentine belt and I believe I've had my Eureka moment regarding how to fix the accessory drive. Now if I can just find the exact tensioner I'll need to make it work...


What was wrong with it?? I am using a smaller form factor alternator so I can get the dang thing out without alot of hassle if needed on the road


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #470, 05-13-2009 08:07 AM
      It was slipping at high RPM. It didn't have enough wrap on the crank pulley.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #471, 05-14-2009 08:53 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Scoobysruvenge:
I get where you are going with the rod bolt stretch measurement, but I have some questions, if you are going by stretch measurements alone then how can you properly load the bearing? What I mean is that the rod and cap need a specific torque range to ensure that the hole stays round, too much torque and the journal becomes egg shaped horizontally and not enough the journal becomes egg shaped vertically. How did you come up with the stretch measurement?


I know it's right because *I* measured it. The exact procedures the shop uses are not always relevant when you go back and double-check what they did. I measured the bearing ID's at the proper bolt stretch and measured the journals and figured clearances myself. The clearances came out a little bit on the wide side, but nothing worth halting the build for another year to get perfect. No matter how perfect you want it to be, at some point you just have to build the damn thing.

If the shop sends me parts that aren't to spec, that's their fault. If I bolt those parts together into an engine that can't do anything but blow up, that would be *MY* fault. Any ignorance of whether the part is in spec or out is willful.

The shop I used sets up the Enfantis Brothers' 2JZ-GTE Supra engines. That's 1600+ HP from a factory 300 HP engine. He knows his Shtuff. He figured out that they could more than quadruple the life of their main bearings by following a torque procedure with the engine mount brackets...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-14-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #472, 05-14-2009 05:09 PM
      Cleaning the heads up right now. I ran them both through the dishwasher twice, but that never gets everything. Also, because the length of the heads is only a tiny bit shorter than the inside of the dishwasher, it does a lousy job cleaning the ends. I had to clean those by hand... been through 4 scotch brite pads. Scrub, scrub.

Head gaskets are here. They look pretty badass. Head studs are also here. Alan Johnson recommended installing studs at 70 ftlbs, so I'll do that. I should be able to screw the heads on this afternoon, then clean the cams/lifters and build the valvetrain tonight. If I can get it together tonight, I should be able to install tomorrow. I won't have time for the 3.94 gears this time around. I'll install them when I install a Tilton clutch, after I get back from Iraq.

Accusump and EPC valve are here, and I already had the oil/coolant heat exchanger.


sanderson (sanderson23@grandecom.net) MSG #473, 05-14-2009 08:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Head studs are also here. Alan Johnson recommended installing studs at 70 ftlbs, so I'll do that. I should be able to screw the heads on this afternoon, then clean the cams/lifters and build the valvetrain tonight.

Accusump and EPC valve are here, and I already had the oil/coolant heat exchanger.


Will,

This sounds like he's saying to torque the studs into the block before installing heads. That would be strange.

Here's a quote from ARP site.

"Studs also provide more accurate and consistent torque loading. Here's why. When you use bolts to secure the head, the fastener is actually being "twisted" while it's being torqued to the proper reading. Accordingly, the bolt is reacting to two different forces simultaneously. A stud should be installed in a "relaxed" mode - never crank it in tightly using a jammed nut.

If everything is right, the stud should be installed finger tight. Then, when applying torque to the nut, the stud will stretch only on the vertical axis. Remember, an undercut shorter stud will have a rate similar to a longer, standard shank stud. This provides a more even clamping force on the head. Because the head gasket will compress upon initial torquing, make sure studs and bolts are re-torqued after the engine has been run."

[This message has been edited by sanderson (edited 05-14-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #474, 05-14-2009 09:30 PM
      Obviously the only torque spec involved in installing a head stud is on the nut...

Also, the only legit way to turn the stud is with a 3/16" socket in the top, which won't even dream of taking 70 ftlbs.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #475, 05-14-2009 11:43 PM
      Got the heads torqued on. Valvetrain will wait till tomorrow.

Engine moved its first air as I turned the crank over to make sure everything was still free. I was wondering if the domes and chambers were 100% compatible. The distance from the cylinder wall to the dome was very close to the distance from the fire ring mark on the head to the edge of the chamber.

It turns over so everything is good.
Obviously, since the valvetrain's not installed and all the valves were closed, air was exchanged through the spark plug hole. While not exactly the way things should run in the finished product, it did move air.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #476, 05-15-2009 01:42 PM
      Won't get the engine in the car this weekend. Other time pressures are being applied (fly out to CA on Sunday for 3 weeks of Navy training, followed by a week in NM). I'll get the valvetrain built, timing drive assembled and front and cam covers installed tonight... maybe even the oil pan. It would be nice to get the engine buttoned up.

However, I won't get it in the car this weekend. I have a few other things I need to fix tomorrow and I'm getting a little burned out on this. I'll be back on the east coast for two weeks in the middle of June and will get it back on the road then.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #477, 05-15-2009 01:46 PM
      A far as spark plugs go, I'm thinking of going 1-2 ranges colder than stock, due to the compression. Anybody know how I look up what plug that is?

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #478, 05-19-2009 06:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

A far as spark plugs go, I'm thinking of going 1-2 ranges colder than stock, due to the compression. Anybody know how I look up what plug that is?


I like NGKs, so I'll give you their info:

http://www.ngksparkplugs.co...ch/partnumberkey.pdf

I looked up plugs for a '95 STS and NGK says to use a TR55GP (platinum) or TR55IX (iridium). Doing a search on Rock Auto's site for NGK part number "TR*" it looks like you can go a bit colder (assume 55 is 5.5?) to a TR6IX (or TR6GP) or TR7IX to go one or two ranges colder, respectively. It might be worth your while to get one stock type (TR55xx) or go to a store that has them in stock to compare the two and make sure they are duplicates except for the electrode insulation.

Most of the companies have a similar part number guide if you prefer another brand.

Bryce


ALLTRBO MSG #479, 05-19-2009 06:40 PM
      This may be of some use, there are more charts than the one linked (I found this to cross-reference my 750 Turbo's plugs).

http://www.clubplug.net/denso_ngk.html

P.S. Will is in CA now as mentioned, he probably won't be posting here much for a few weeks, though he does have internet access. *shrug*


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #480, 05-23-2009 12:42 AM
      Cool. Thanks both of you.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #481, 06-15-2009 12:02 AM
      Back from Navy training for two weeks. In between getting my house rehab done, I'll be working on this some more.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #482, 06-17-2009 05:32 PM
      Valvetrain is fully built. I've taken pictures, but had other things going on as well, so I've been doing rather than posting.

I'm tracking down all the itty bitty parts for the timing drive and should be able to get the engine buttoned up tonight.


30+mpg (wshaw@par1.net) MSG #483, 06-17-2009 05:37 PM
      Do you have an ET for engine start (as in fired up and running)?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #484, 06-17-2009 07:31 PM
      Taking a dinner break.

I did manage to dig up the can with the timing drive parts from the first assembly of this engine three or whatever years ago. The guides and tensioner shoes only had ~100 miles on them, so they were practically new. The tensioners were the originals from the first swap, but they operate in an oil bath, so they never wear out.

The timing drive is built. I just have to find the right oil pump and bolt it on, then I can button up the front cover and cam covers. On the bottom end, I just have to install the windage tray and pan pickup before I can install the pan.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #485, 06-17-2009 07:42 PM
      Trying for this weekend.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #486, 06-17-2009 10:38 PM
      Oil pump's installed. I have the cam covers, front cover, windage tray and oil pan to install.

However, I just realized I don't have the right oil pickup tube handy. I'll have to go out back and dig around in the shed for one.

The early (93-95) engines have a seal on the pickup tube to seal it to the oil manifold plate. In '96 (I think) they changed both so that the seal is part of the oil manifold and the pickup tube does not have an integral seal. At that time, they also changed the windage tray so that it installed under the heads of all 20 main bolts, instead of on the stud heads of the inner two rows. This saved them the cost of the nuts *and* the extra cost of the stud heads over normal bolts. They also, obnoxiously, changed the location of the alignment dowel between the lower crank case and oil manifold plate. This means you can't mix crank case and oil manifold styles, even though there should be absolutely no reason NOT to mix them...


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #487, 06-17-2009 11:12 PM
      Looked back through the manual and the oil pickups are probably the same, but the early engines had a loose seal, while the later ones had the integrated seal. I'll see if I can scare one up tomorrow...

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #488, 06-18-2009 09:09 AM
      I was able to track down an early style pickup tube. It's a bit rusty and the seal's not in good shape, so I'm considering using one of my pristine later model pickup tubes and sealing it to the oil manifold with RTV.

I also found the nuts to secure the early style windage tray. That was a relief. I was concerned that I might have to pull ALL F@#$ING TWENTY main bolts to use the later style windage tray, and then swap from the stud-headed bolts to the later standard bolts.

Gotta deal with the mods to my new house for a few hours, then back to what REALLY matters...


ALLTRBO MSG #489, 06-18-2009 08:55 PM
      Do come this way for your test drive. I want to see the MOST RELIABLE 300HP ENGINE EVAR!1!!1

I never have had a properly functioning ride in that car.

G'luck!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #490, 06-18-2009 10:50 PM
      Was planning to go to Capitol, remember? Although Google says it's about the same distance and slightly less time to Dinwiddie.

Dyno break-in fell through, though, so I need some lookouts... Doing anything Saturday?

Intake and new Gucci stainless steel fuel rail are installed. I'm about to go rough clean the oil pan so I can throw it in the dishwasher...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-18-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #491, 06-19-2009 11:38 AM
      Infinite Speed and Performance is just a few minutes from me, they have a dyno (AWD too). Call 'em up, I'll go tomorrow if you can get a spot. Heck, I'd like to know what the 1100 puts down before I sell it, too.
http://www.ispracing.com/ca...8lgr72fs2363og8gqca2

Capitol Raceway seems to be just as busy as VMP (Dinwiddie), which sucks, but Capitol is MUCH closer to me, and I hate VMP. It doesn't look like you'll get more than one run in at either place. I miss the old Thunder Valley (Oklahoma) days when I could get 9 runs in and still let the car cool between runs. Of course it's their fault that my Talon's center diff broke so I don't miss them that much.

Tomorrow I was just planning on tearing apart the 7-bolt in the '98 Talon to figure out which bearing is bad. Either way it needs a new engine so I have a small bit of time before much can happen.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #492, 06-19-2009 11:51 AM
      Everything I've read about hard break-ins says that they need to be in the first few minutes of runtime... That means I'd have to trailer it up there.

Infinite Speed? Is that higher than Ludicrous Speed?

Oil pan's currently in the dishwasher.

Damned house gets in the way of building the car...

Want me to send my contractor over there for your shower?

AWD dyno? I could drive the Goose up and see if it cracks 100 at the ground.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-19-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #493, 06-19-2009 02:12 PM
      Oil pan is on and I'm piecing together all the little junk on the outside of the engine. *Most* of these items came off the previous engine, though, so they're not hard to find.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #494, 06-19-2009 03:49 PM
      I spoke with AC Delco about plugs... they said that the stock is the ONLY thing that they make with that head style.

I spoke with Autolite. They said that the stock plug is the coldest they make.

I spoke with NGK. Their tech guy was able to hook me right up with exactly what I need.

Lesson: For oddball spark plugs, call NGK and don't waste your time with anybody else. They've got their act together. The tech guy was asking me about compression ratio, power adders, etc. It sounds like they have a more modular way of making plugs that allows them to put whatever guts they want in whatever head style they want.

The stock plug is a TR55GP, stock number 3403
-T is head style and thread size
-R is for resistor
-5 is for heat range
-(2nd) 5 is for extended gap (.060 stock)
-GP is for platinum

The part number the NGK tech gave me is TR6GP, stock number 5141. The 6 is the heat range and there is no extended gap option. This plug will come out of the box with ~.040 gap and can be gapped as high as .050. Even with the higher compression, the GM DIS should be able to fire .050 gap.
Carquest warehouse an hour away has them, but the local CQ won't be open tomorrow, so I'll have to run up there myself... d-oh. If I'd have taken care of this yesterday, he could have had them for me this morning.

There's also a TR7IX stock number 3690 if the 6 heat range isn't cold enough.

And the local Fisher/Federated Auto Parts can have them for me tomorrow.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-19-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #495, 06-20-2009 12:01 AM
      Dagonnit... I wanted to get it on the cradle tonight, but I got sidetracked.

tjm4fun (tjm4fun@yahoo.com) MSG #496, 06-20-2009 02:17 AM
      life happens. sidetracking is something most all of us have to live with.
On a positive note, I'm very happy that you saw the light. acdelco doesn't even rate as lawnmower plugs, nevermind a motor that you have gone to this length with. (if not obvious: I hate acdelco plugs)
I have had nothing but good experience with ngk plugs since I switched to them about 10 years ago. This include applications from 2 stroke outboards to marine sbc's and all my cars spanning gm, nissan, dsm, mazda and toyota. they work and last a long time.
continue with the right thing for your engine, and fook those that are impatient. you are doing what you feel is the right way, and whether we disagree on some items or not, it is your project, not theirs or mine.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #497, 06-21-2009 08:13 AM
      I got the engine off the stand last night and was cleaning up the flywheel to reinstall. I checked the length of the flywhweel bolts and 25mm is going to be just a smidge too long... Dammit, why does GM have to design things in odd sizes?
Actually, I guess I can't grouse at GM for Northstar flywheel bolts being an odd length...

Getrag ring gear bolts need to be 22mm long.

Industry lists 11mm bolts as a "do not use" size, while GM uses them for headbolts for everything.

I need to take about .100 off the flywheel bolts.


ALLTRBO MSG #498, 06-21-2009 09:01 AM
      Almost there!

I was thinking that you could break it in on the street then come here and dyno it anyway.

Contractor for the shower? YES! at this point, heh. It's very pathetic that some of my cars have to take priority over the darn SHOWER.
Last night Pat and I welded a stock muffler onto his fully built Eclipse, LOL.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #499, 06-22-2009 03:24 PM
      Feh. I hate being stoopid.

The Northstar comes with a "reinforcement" for the flexplate hub. It's basically a .060 thick washer with the Northstar crank bolt pattern in it. In modifying the flywheel for the Northstar, approx .060 had to come off the back. No big... just drop the spacer behind the flywheel instead of in front of the flex plate. Except that I forgot it.
There's also room for washers under the bolt heads... the combo of these two factors means that I didn't have to (and in fact should not have) shortened the flywheel bolts. It also means that I have to pull the flywheel back off, add the appropriate parts and put it back together with unmolested bolts. Grrr...

Spent pretty much all of today moving, though... and realizing how screwed up I was with the flywheel.

However, I just spoke with a guy at the reserve center. They need me to report Friday morning and do admin work... but then they cut me loose for the weekend to report on Monday to some other command. Grrr... Well... I might be able to swing by Dinwiddie Friday or Saturday night. I'm thinking that I'll get The Mule running to drive down to Norfolk on Thursday.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-22-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #500, 06-23-2009 08:32 AM
      Flywheel's on the RIGHT way this time. Now I can't find the @#$%ing clutch alignment tool. May have to make a new one.

If I put two flywheel bolts next to eachother, pointing opposite directions, interlock the threads and hold the pair up to light, light gets through a small gap between the threads.

On "virgin" flywheel bolts, the gap is uniform all the way down the bolt.

On the used flywheel bolts, the gap is NOT uniform for the length of the bolt. IOW, the bolt stretch from the torque to yield spec is *visible*. Sweet.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-23-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #501, 06-23-2009 10:45 AM
      Made a new clutch tool out of some plastic rod hanging around. Clutch is on.

I just realized that I have to clearance the block at the lower right bellhousing mounting ear, because the Northstar pattern moved that one bolt... Here comes the die grinder.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #502, 06-23-2009 09:03 PM
      Engine's on the cradle and the cradle is hanging under the car right now. In a few minutes I'm going to go back out and bolt on the A/C compressor. I should get it into the car and mostly hooked up tonight.

I misplaced my three wire coolant temp sensor, so I have to get another one tomorrow. This means that I won't be able to fill the coolant until that sensor is in place.

I'm unfortunately going to forego the accusump and oil cooler until I return from mobilization. Time constraints are just too tight. Under normal circumstances, I'd say never let a deadline compromise the requirements of a project, but this is not a normal circumstance. I know the engine does well enough without an oil cooler... it would just do better with one.

Besides, I have to rework the engine compartment A/C lines to have room for the accusump.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #503, 06-24-2009 02:22 AM
      Bleh.... car's on it's wheels. Bed.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #504, 06-24-2009 08:24 AM
      I should have put the transmission in the dishwasher also. The engine's all nice and clean and shiny... and it's bolted to a transmission that's grungy and grimy.

30+mpg (wshaw@par1.net) MSG #505, 06-24-2009 01:16 PM
     
 
quote
Will:I should have put the transmission in the dishwasher also. The engine's all nice and clean and shiny... and it's bolted to a transmission that's grungy and grimy.


Depends, are you going to actually drive it or just trailer it to shows?

It's been, what, 5-1/2 years since you last drove it?

[This message has been edited by 30+mpg (edited 06-24-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #506, 06-24-2009 04:53 PM
      I drove it with a temporary engine in December '07 & January '08. Then the temp engine lost a head gasket and I parked it again.

The Mule spent last night on all four of its own wheels, but today it's been up and down and up and down chasing down all the little BS items that make things tough. The engine was dry, so it took a LOT of coolant. The thermostat housing had pinched its o-ring or something and leaked, so I had to drain a good bit of coolant back out of the system and fix that.

I *hate* being covered in coolant (or brake fluid, or basically any glycol), but I had to be under the car getting dripped on making sure that the thermostat & o-ring were correctly positioned in the thermostat housing. I also replaced the heater core, because I'd smelled coolant with the heater last time I had it running. The cooling system is filled now.

The tank had about 5 gallons of 1.5 year old 93 in it. I was glad I put a +12 wire in the diagnostic connector. There's also a fuel pump wire there (stock), so all I have to do to pump out the tank is jumper those two pins. I'll be dropping about 5 gallons of C16 into it for the first fire. Throwing 5-6 gallons of 93 in on top of that should give me about 104 octane, just to be safe for the break-in with high compression.

The clutch releases. I desperately need a new select cable, but the current one will work temporarily.

Everything that can be accessed from above is connected. I have a few more chores underneath, but then I should be able to fire it up.


Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #507, 06-24-2009 06:12 PM
      Good progress, Will. It's amazing what a deadline can do to speed up progress on projects, huh?

Bryce


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #508, 06-24-2009 06:33 PM
      Feh. There are lots of little things like reworking the A/C lines and adding oil cooler/accusump that I'm not going to do until later due to the deadline.

I have all the little jobs taken care of except designing the tensioner adapter for the new accessory drive. That shouldn't be hard, as long as I can find the damned alternator bolt that disappeared... yes, the 3" long one from the bottom of the alternator... not the others that are easily replaced.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #509, 06-24-2009 08:12 PM
      Found it. I just had to go out to the garage with my car keys as I was about to go get the replacement, and the old one showed up.

The accessories are all bolted on and set up. I'm playing with a different tensioner (pulls the opposite direction) and a different arrangement of the belt to give more crank pulley wrap and allow a smaller alternator bracket.


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #510, 06-24-2009 08:37 PM
      Pics?

cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #511, 06-24-2009 08:55 PM
      Vids? Ok, given that you are under a severe time crunch we'll have to let it go this time...


ALLTRBO MSG #512, 06-24-2009 09:21 PM
      I just talked with him, he does have pics but he won't be able to get them up yet for the aforementioned reason. They will be eventually, though (hopefully before too long).

I'm trying to convince him to make it over here (a few hours away) before he leaves, if he does I can probably record some quick video with my camcorder. If everyone helps pressure him into it, he may cave.


cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #513, 06-24-2009 09:35 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

I just talked with him, he does have pics but he won't be able to get them up yet for the aforementioned reason. They will be eventually, though (hopefully before too long).

I'm trying to convince him to make it over here (a few hours away) before he leaves, if he does I can probably record some quick video with my camcorder. If everyone helps pressure him into it, he may cave.


Pics! Pics! Pics! Vids! Vids! Vids!. You can do it Will!!!!



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #514, 06-24-2009 10:07 PM
      Uh-oh, I have a fan club. Maybe Cliff will move this thread to the Construction Zone if I put up more pics.

My ideas for the accessory drive won't work. What looked like a slick belt routing when the engine was out of the car puts the tensioner in the perfect place to run into the battery tray with the engine in the car. So the idea I had is scratched... However, I do have another one, but that one will be much more time consuming to implement, as I have to make an idler pulley mount that picks up a half-dozen or so of the front cover bolts.

So anyway, I'll put the accessory drive back the old way and let the car down tonight. Tomorrow I'll give it a final inspection, start it and break it in.


ALLTRBO MSG #515, 06-26-2009 09:41 PM
      It must be running, he hasn't posted here in two days.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #516, 06-26-2009 09:43 PM
      FIRE IN THE HOLE!!!

With a flick of my wrist, I bring my creation to life. It rumbles, grumbles, growls, *SNARLS* and calms to purr like a mountain lion. I prod it with my right foot and it jeers "I hunger! Where are the Mustangs?". I stab it with my right foot and it thunders across the valley "I FEAST! BRING ME A CORVETTE!".

At least that's what it was like in my mind.

The engine primed nicely and fired more or less without incident.

I poured about 5 gallons of 112 octane into the tank, then filled it with 93. I couldn't get all the old gas out, so I wanted to dilute it as much as possible. The resultint mixture should be about 101 octane and should run an 11.5:1 engine just fine.

Due to time constraints, I hadn't had the injectors cleaned or gotten new plug wires.
I drove it around for a few minutes until the temp got up. The temp came up and settled in, but then gradually crept up. As I was coming back, the temp gauge fluctuated distinctly as I crested a hill; this means air in the system. Since I'd been very careful filling it, this told me I most likely had a leak. When I got back to the hizzouse and popped the decklid, the joint between the thermostat housing and the waterpump housing was gently misting coolant all over the left side of my engine bay. Grrr... That SonofaB@#$% is getting some F#@%ing Permatex or RTV next time it's apart. I'm not putting up with that crap anymore. That joint had leaked when I was filling the cooling system, so I took it apart and carefully reseated the o-ring when I put it back together. It stayed sealed when filling the system, but the increase in pressure from the initial heat cycle made it leak. Annoying, but could be worse.

The engine didn't quite run right. It did have a miss. My amuptated Caddy instrument panel told me that the integrator was 143 for the front bank and 105 for the rear bank. My half-assed program for the Caddy computer locks the BLM's at 128, so all I had to work from were the integrator values. So the computer thinks that the front bank is lean and the rear bank is rich. I can believe the the front bank would be lean because I found a serious nick/gouge in the #8 plug wire... so that could be a misfire. The O2 sensor would register the extra oxygen as lean and the computer would add fuel.

The rear bank registers rich. Basically the only thing that could cause this is running rich. I suspect that I may have an injector problem, since the injectors had been sitting a while and I did not have them cleaned/flowed.

However, the most important aspect of the test drive was that the engine DID NOT SMOKE.
On the most basic level, the build is a success. Even if nothing else about the engine is any better than stock, it is at least a viable engine to use in a car.

While it did have a miss, it still ran on 7 cylinders and definitely had power that I hadn't felt in a long time. Acceleration to any speed I tried was still effortless... just not quite as brutal as it should have been.

I am slightly concerned about fuel wash down in the missing cylinder, but total run time is probably 10-15 minutes at this point, so I don't think I could have done anything to it yet. Fixing the miss should just be a matter of tune-up issues, like plug wires and injector maintenance/replacement. Fixing the coolant spray should also be straightforward. Unfortunately, I have ZERO time to do any of that, so I'll have to leave instructions with my dad for him to do it.


cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #517, 06-27-2009 01:42 AM
      Congrats!


Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #518, 06-27-2009 02:38 AM
      I'll baby sit and break it in for ya Will while you're busy ..Trust me

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #519, 06-27-2009 08:52 AM
      My transmission also has the classic Getrag input shaft noise. I was idling in the driveway thinking "That can't possibly be valvetrain noise"... depress the clutch and it goes away. Hmph.

mcaanda (mcaanda@gmail.com) MSG #520, 06-27-2009 12:54 PM
     

ALLTRBO MSG #521, 06-27-2009 01:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mcaanda:


What he said. ^^^

Are you leaving now? We need to talk, gimme a call.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 06-27-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #522, 06-28-2009 09:11 AM
      Pictures!

This is the obligatory piston shot. That's one of my Cometic MLS gaskets:



Cylinder head bolted down with no valvetrain:



Valvetrain assembled. How many different applications are in this picture? I have a Crane moly-disulfide lube on the intake cam, Comp white lithium lube on the exhaust cam, Clevite bearing guard in the cam journals and lifter bores, ARP moly assembly lube on the upper head stud threads and under the nuts and blue Loctite (or rather the Permatex equivalent) on the bottom threads of the head studs



Built up timing drive:



Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #523, 06-28-2009 09:37 AM
      How much does the custom MLS gaskets cost?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #524, 06-28-2009 10:16 AM
      They're not "custom" because Cometic already had the dies to punch out gaskets for the Northstar. They're more like "made to order". For an engine like the 60 degree V6 for which they do not have dies, they'd need quite a large order to justify making the dies.

They were ~$125 each.

I chose the thickness of course, and was also able to request a .010 smaller than stock bore in the gasket, to help keep crevice volume down.

The Northstar clutch alignment tool should have a diameter of .822 for a length of .800, then a diameter of .865 for a length of 1.375.

The Northstar can use 25mm flywheel bolts. This includes .570 thickness of the crank flange, .300 thickness of the flywheel, .060 thickness of the spacer and the thickness of a washer. The max depth through the crank flange is .650 (which leaves .080 gap between the flange and the rear main bulkhead).

I got my 12.9 flywheel bolts from Lawson, but ARP also lists the following:
671-1002 180K psi 8x1.25x25 12pt 5pk
661-1002 180K psi 8x1.25x25 hex 5pk

The 12583148 fuel rail is what I used.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-03-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #525, 07-03-2009 07:18 PM
      Well, Will is gone now of course (thanks for your service and God speed, dude!), but let me tell you my vision for the no-too-distant future. It's something for all to look forward to.

Next summer he'll get back to a shiny (albeit dusty) new V8 waiting for him, and I'll have my water/air intercooled turbo TGP 3.1 5-speed '88 GT (MIDTRBO) here and running well by then (and it'll be faster than his 6 year uber-reliable Northstar build, hah! ).

What this means is none other than a video-taped blast through Thornton Gap with Will in front and me following with the in-car camcorder! What's Thornton Gap you ask? A very awesome roller coaster through the Blue Ridge Mountains crossing the famous Skyline Drive, that's what.



Will grew up around there and could drive this mountain with his eyes closed. I followed him in his N* Fiero with my modded AWD Talon a few years back, and have wished it was recorded ever since. I've been through there several more times in the Talon, in Will's Formula, in my twin-turbo Camaro, and on my GPZ1100, and I absolutely MUST do it in the soon-to-be MIDTRBO. What better way to break-in two awesome 'new' Fieros than to drive them how they were meant to be driven!

Stay tuned for summer '10!


30+mpg (wshaw@par1.net) MSG #526, 07-03-2009 07:38 PM
     
 
quote
ALLTRBO:
'88 Fiero GT - getting there
'96 Talon TSi AWD - 11.9 @ 116, sorta broke again still
'90 Camaro IROC-Z twin-turbo - sorta broke again still



When it comes to cars, maybe your UserName should be ALLBRO (short for all broke) !


ALLTRBO MSG #527, 07-03-2009 07:50 PM
      Ouch. That's not funny.

It's hilarious.

I'm working on it, I really am! Everything just sort of fell apart all at once (except the Fiero, which I bought without a drivetrain... stupid!). With chronic severe time-wasting health problems, everything is slow-going. I've made more progress in the last few months than in the last few years, though. Someone else is nearly completing my Fiero for me. :/


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #528, 07-09-2009 08:42 PM
      I haven't driven this one, but it looks pretty good, too:

http://tinyurl.com/ncsjfx


ALLTRBO MSG #529, 07-11-2009 05:35 PM
      EDIT:
Would you like mudders with that 4x4 Fiero, Will?




Well it looked good from further up, that's for sure!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 07-11-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #530, 07-11-2009 06:09 PM
      Nevermind. :/

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 07-11-2009).]

kwagner MSG #531, 07-11-2009 08:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Built up timing drive:



I wondered how they ran the timing chains for a V-engine. Thanks for the pic


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #532, 07-12-2009 03:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

EDIT:
Would you like mudders with that 4x4 Fiero, Will?

http://myfiero.com/uploads/17432_.jpg


Well it looked good from further up, that's for sure!



Woops... maybe that'll have to be the Eagle instead of the Fiero. I have plans for a 4.6 litre engine for the Eagle as well... just not a Northstar.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-12-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #533, 07-12-2009 03:12 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by kwagner:

I wondered how they ran the timing chains for a V-engine. Thanks for the pic


On an engine with different packaging choices, the need for the two step timing drive would be eliminated. Because the Northstar is so optimised for compactness, all of the angles in the cylinder head are "swept" toward the intake side. The exhaust valve angle is shallow, the plug well is angled toward the intake side and the intake valve angle is steep. This puts the exhaust cam almost directly over the outside wall of the block, while the intake cam, as you can see, is overhung significantly to the inside of the engine. All this necessitates the two step timing drive and was done to make the engine more compact, which is especially necessary for transverse mounting. If it were *really* optimized for performance, the heads would be closer to symmetrical and a single stage timing drive (like what BMW has for the M3's new 4 litre V8) might work, but then it wouldn't fit in a Fiero.


30+mpg (wshaw@par1.net) MSG #534, 07-23-2009 06:41 PM
     
 
quote
Will:

FIRE IN THE HOLE!!!...I drove it around for a few minutes until the temp got up. The temp came up and settled in, but then gradually crept up. As I was coming back, the temp gauge fluctuated distinctly as I crested a hill; this means air in the system. Since I'd been very careful filling it, this told me I most likely had a leak. When I got back to the hizzouse and popped the decklid, the joint between the thermostat housing and the waterpump housing was gently misting coolant all over the left side of my engine bay. Grrr... That SonofaB@#$% is getting some F#@%ing Permatex or RTV next time it's apart. I'm not putting up with that crap anymore. That joint had leaked when I was filling the cooling system, so I took it apart and carefully reseated the o-ring when I put it back together. It stayed sealed when filling the system, but the increase in pressure from the initial heat cycle made it leak. Annoying, but could be worse.

The engine didn't quite run right. It did have a miss. My amuptated Caddy instrument panel told me that the integrator was 143 for the front bank and 105 for the rear bank. My half-assed program for the Caddy computer locks the BLM's at 128, so all I had to work from were the integrator values. So the computer thinks that the front bank is lean and the rear bank is rich. I can believe the the front bank would be lean because I found a serious nick/gouge in the #8 plug wire... so that could be a misfire. The O2 sensor would register the extra oxygen as lean and the computer would add fuel.

The rear bank registers rich. Basically the only thing that could cause this is running rich. I suspect that I may have an injector problem, since the injectors had been sitting a while and I did not have them cleaned/flowed.

However, the most important aspect of the test drive was that the engine DID NOT SMOKE.
On the most basic level, the build is a success. Even if nothing else about the engine is any better than stock, it is at least a viable engine to use in a car.

While it did have a miss, it still ran on 7 cylinders and definitely had power that I hadn't felt in a long time. Acceleration to any speed I tried was still effortless... just not quite as brutal as it should have been.

I am slightly concerned about fuel wash down in the missing cylinder, but total run time is probably 10-15 minutes at this point, so I don't think I could have done anything to it yet. Fixing the miss should just be a matter of tune-up issues, like plug wires and injector maintenance/replacement. Fixing the coolant spray should also be straightforward. Unfortunately, I have ZERO time to do any of that, so I'll have to leave instructions with my dad for him to do it.


Update?



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #535, 07-31-2009 10:44 AM
      None at all. I'm in the Kuwaiti desert and haven't had the time to talk to my dad about it.

mrgrimes (dgarrett@ethandiesel.com) MSG #536, 11-28-2009 10:04 PM
      I have some pic of my N* build I would like to share, how do I upload pics?

Boogaloo MSG #537, 11-28-2009 11:43 PM
      I was looking at this thread and I can't see why it took 6 years to build this engine and still not running , there is alot of technical jargon and rambling and maths calculation but nothing to show I think it is a waste of time .

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #538, 11-29-2009 12:25 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Boogaloo:

I was looking at this thread and I can't see why it took 6 years to build this engine and still not running , there is alot of technical jargon and rambling and maths calculation but nothing to show I think it is a waste of time .


What's the problem you're having with it? You've only been waiting since Sept. 2009 for it to be finished.


Boogaloo MSG #539, 11-29-2009 12:35 AM
      Regardless of that still too long.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #540, 11-29-2009 06:57 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mrgrimes:

I have some pic of my N* build I would like to share, how do I upload pics?


There's an icon at the bottom of the page for "Pennock's Image Poster". Download it and follow directions to set it up.
Alternatively, start an account at photobucket.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #541, 11-29-2009 07:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Boogaloo:

I was looking at this thread and I can't see why it took 6 years to build this engine and still not running , there is alot of technical jargon and rambling and maths calculation but nothing to show I think it is a waste of time .


You're a few months too late. I fired it in June. My dad had to move the car after a couple of months of sitting. It fired and ran first crank.
No one's stopping you from doing better. You don't have a piano tied to your leg preventing you from going places.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #542, 11-29-2009 07:04 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


You're a few months too late. I fired it in June. My dad had to move the car after a couple of months of sitting. It fired and ran first crank.
No one's stopping you from doing better. You don't have a piano tied to your leg preventing you from going places.


Do you play the piano too Will.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #543, 11-29-2009 08:35 AM
      No, I just play the field.
I'm 7000 miles away as the ICBM flies, so I'm already going places!


mrgrimes (dgarrett@ethandiesel.com) MSG #544, 11-29-2009 07:57 PM
      Here are some pics. The car is plastic just like a Fiero so I thought it would be ok for this forum. Hope no one objects.













tjm4fun (tjm4fun@yahoo.com) MSG #545, 11-29-2009 08:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Boogaloo:

I was looking at this thread and I can't see why it took 6 years to build this engine and still not running , there is alot of technical jargon and rambling and maths calculation but nothing to show I think it is a waste of time .


Totally un-call- for'd.

He is experimenting an working the theoritcal end of engine development. and YES that does involve math and calculations, boring, maybe, but fo the sharper people, there is much to be learned.
He is out of country.
if you read the thread you would know that.
Will and I will disagree alot, but that does not merit any level of disrespect, and that is what I saw in that post by you.
We will get over any disagreement, but we, and no one should disrespect anyone for their direction in engine work.
learn,
cause the day you stop learning you will be in that box 6 feet under. ( my ol man said that all the time, and he never stopped taking things apart and figuring out how they worked)

I wish I had the time to design and select an engine like this. it may not be the most powerful or the best engine to do this with, but he had a desire and he did it. I did that 20 years ago with a 231 buick, and got laughed at, and proved them wrong, so I can recongnize the time and effort put in here.

ok, done off topicing here. Will get home safe and finish this thing.

[This message has been edited by tjm4fun (edited 11-29-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #546, 11-30-2009 04:26 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mrgrimes:

Here are some pics. The car is plastic just like a Fiero so I thought it would be ok for this forum. Hope no one objects.
http://images.fieroforum.com/2009/IMGA0137.JPG
http://images.fieroforum.com/2009/IMGA0138.JPG
http://images.fieroforum.com/2009/IMGA0140.JPG
http://images.fieroforum.com/2009/IMGA0142.JPG
http://images.fieroforum.com/2009/IMGA0139.JPG



Heh... that'll make some L98 guys want to lynch you. How's the swap going? Any particular reason you picked a '00+ FWD engine?

Are those the CHRF Arias pistons?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-30-2009).]

mrgrimes (dgarrett@ethandiesel.com) MSG #547, 11-30-2009 05:47 PM
      its not really going right now. I mothballed everything about a year ago because I had bought a major fixer upper farm house and between work, kids, and the house there is no time left. I hope to start it back up in about 6 months.

The Pistons are CP, about two years ago I talked to you via this forum and followed your lead. They are 12:1. The block is a 04 with an 04 crank. In 04 some cranks were forged, this one looks forged based on the seem seen in the picture on the rod journal. The balancing guy who did the rods, pistons, rings, writs pins, and crank thought it was a forged crank too. He said the set up we have is the lowest rotational weight for any V8 he had ever seen. in addition this was the last year for the LS1 ECU style crank pick up. I write software for a living and once worked on a product that used the Delphi PCM32U (LS1 ECU), as a side project I re-flashed that ECU with my own boot loader and program code completely erasing the GM software. I plan to use this ECU on this project.

Anyway I am running 05 heads which requires some oil plumbing modes, the heads are almost done with the exception of grinding the height of the valve stems and fly cutting the heads about .020". +00 head had a better valve train with a roller rocker fulcrum, and the exhaust ports are better then any earlier N* year too. Especially since I ported the head. I think I bought the last set of springs from chfab for the 05 heads that they had.

I am also running a dry sump which allowed the nice folks at CP Pistons to sell me some low tension piston rings. The dry sump is about 70% finished. It is s three stage vacuum and 1 stage pressure. I made a dry sump tank out of N* oil tank, which now sites about 2.5 inches less in height.


mrgrimes (dgarrett@ethandiesel.com) MSG #548, 11-30-2009 06:48 PM
      and to answer your question, RPM and weight.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #549, 12-01-2009 01:57 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mrgrimes:

its not really going right now. I mothballed everything about a year ago because I had bought a major fixer upper farm house and between work, kids, and the house there is no time left. I hope to start it back up in about 6 months.

The Pistons are CP, about two years ago I talked to you via this forum and followed your lead. They are 12:1. The block is a 04 with an 04 crank. In 04 some cranks were forged, this one looks forged based on the seem seen in the picture on the rod journal. The balancing guy who did the rods, pistons, rings, writs pins, and crank thought it was a forged crank too. He said the set up we have is the lowest rotational weight for any V8 he had ever seen. in addition this was the last year for the LS1 ECU style crank pick up. I write software for a living and once worked on a product that used the Delphi PCM32U (LS1 ECU), as a side project I re-flashed that ECU with my own boot loader and program code completely erasing the GM software. I plan to use this ECU on this project.

Anyway I am running 05 heads which requires some oil plumbing modes, the heads are almost done with the exception of grinding the height of the valve stems and fly cutting the heads about .020". +00 head had a better valve train with a roller rocker fulcrum, and the exhaust ports are better then any earlier N* year too. Especially since I ported the head. I think I bought the last set of springs from chfab for the 05 heads that they had.

I am also running a dry sump which allowed the nice folks at CP Pistons to sell me some low tension piston rings. The dry sump is about 70% finished. It is s three stage vacuum and 1 stage pressure. I made a dry sump tank out of N* oil tank, which now sites about 2.5 inches less in height.


Interesting. I'd heard they improved the exhaust ports in '05, but I didn't know how much. Do you have flow numbers for your heads? port volumes? What work have you done to them?

What oil system mods are necessary to use the '05 heads on the '04 block?

I hadn't had much interest in the '00+ engines because the '00-'04 had horrible exhaust ports. I had figured I'd skip this generation and go to the VVT engine for my next swap.

I knew that the '00+ had a different reluctor wheel than the '93-'99 engines. Are you saying that the '00+ wheel is the same (or makes the same pulse train from the sensor) as the LS1's use?

Very interesting info on the forged crank. I knew the RWD engines had forged cranks. It would make sense to use the same part in both engines. The Northstar does have a lightweight rotating assembly. The small bore means that the pistons can be lighter than anything for a Chevy. I took 300 grams per cylinder out of the stock bobweight between the Eagle rods and CP Pistons. Did you have your crank balanced conventionally (by drilling holes in the counterweights)?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-01-2009).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #550, 12-01-2009 02:02 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mrgrimes:

and to answer your question, RPM and weight.


I meant as opposed to a '93-'99 engine or a '04+ RWD engine.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #551, 12-01-2009 11:44 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mrgrimes:
I write software for a living and once worked on a product that used the Delphi PCM32U (LS1 ECU), as a side project I re-flashed that ECU with my own boot loader and program code completely erasing the GM software. I plan to use this ECU on this project.


I know what you mean regarding the house. I bought two this year and I haven't seen the renovated one finished yet.

This bit about the ECM is very interesting... I'm curious to hear you talk more about this.



mrgrimes (dgarrett@ethandiesel.com) MSG #552, 12-01-2009 04:00 PM
      I have seen you on the GM ECU forums before. The ECU is the 332 based derivative developed by Delphi using a Moto 68332 (before freescale) for GM and that started production in 1999 and ended its run in 2005, but you probably new that. I worked for a company that was a vendor to GM and we had an relationship with Delphi where we would buy from Delphi the ECU only flashed with seed code. Using P&E micro BDM connection we would run out of RAM and flash the boot loader or program. For me to do this today using a junk yard ECU I need to pull a pin high on the flash chip and run my PC app that downloads s-record lines to the program running out of flash which in turn sets the address on the flash to program mode and writes each s-record line. I can flash any address in the flash chip.

I have all the documents for the CPU and peripheral devices, and harness connection diagrams. Back in the day I wrote the spark control portion of the product and tested the slew rate of the coils that we were using. I found that by running the coil at > 16 volts I could get the CPU to dwell 8 coils at above 11,000 RPM. In remembering that, I decided to purchase an ECU, hack into it and start writing a basic sequential fuel and sequential spark control using map, rpm, throttle, air temp and coolant temp. I got it all working on my test bench but my electric motor would only run the crank reluctor ring that I made, up to 6000 rpm.

I can configure the ECU to run as a 4, 6, or 8 cylinder but I have to use that Northstar crank pattern.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #553, 12-02-2009 11:01 AM
      Sounds like you're neck deep in it. I don't think I'll ever get that deep into the actual programming side of the house, but I have lots of ideas for different algorithms to try in an ECM.

I've been curious about using the product of MAP and IAT for the load axis of a spark map instead of MAP by itself. I think that would more accurately represent the likelihood of detonation and result in a better ability to control detonation.

What I'd like to try when I get back from Iraq is to use the 0411 (which I believe is the computer you're talking about) with the code from a G-Van with Vortec 350, tuned with either EFI Live of HP Tuners (probably EFI LIve to leverage some other nutty projects I want to try). I'd use the Northstar DIS brick. If that works that's probably as far as I'd go with engine management on the '99- engines.

So I understand from what you said that the '00+ reluctor wheel is the same as the LS1 reluctor wheel. Does the Northstar continue to use two crank sensors to synch faster?
The positions of the crank sensors were tweaked slightly for '00. Do you know why that was done? For example, was it to make the "reference angle" variable the same between the two engines?

If I put the '00-'04 crank into my engine, would I be able to run it with the 0411 and LS1 program (and just tweak whatever amounts to a crank reference angle)?
That would upgrade me from DIS to coil/cylinder, but I'm just curious as I'm not about to change crankshafts for that relatively small benefit.

It sounds like you're building a pretty sweet engine and you've really cherry picked the best parts of the roller cam FWD engines.

Do you have flow numbers for the '05 heads? What oil system mods were necessary?


mrgrimes (dgarrett@ethandiesel.com) MSG #554, 12-02-2009 01:04 PM
      Ideally you would want to use the air temp at the intake valves whenever the throttle is > 25%. Because at greater than 25% the intake valve is the last air valve before the cylinder and it has the most effect on air flow. As you know pressure up stream and down stream along with temperature just before any orifice determine flow across any orifice. Without air temp you would be lost on your transient control algorithm, even with feed back from an output sensor. If the throttle is < 25% than the air temp at the throttle body is preferred.

In years past I have spend many a day calibrating my speed density code in order to meet California EPA chassis dyno tests. The best calibrations I achieve were if I ran a thermocouple into the intake runner right above the valve. From there I would create/calibrate an separate air temperature map (1 dimensional table) for the permanent manifold temp sensor based on the output of the temporary thermocouple. From a software design stand point having a two separate tables one for map and one for air temp is a better software abstraction and software architecture design vs a two dimensional table with map and air temp, even if the look up is faster cpu cycles wise for a two dimensional table.

For the 05 heads I do not have flow numbers but I will try to send you a picture of the ports. The oil mods are necessary because the front cam bearing oil supply passages from the block do not match up. The head over hangs the block where the timing chain cavity and front two cylinders start. The two supply passages can be accessed easily from behind the timing chain and plumbed directly to the output of the oil pump below.


mrgrimes (dgarrett@ethandiesel.com) MSG #555, 12-02-2009 03:04 PM
      for the reluctor pickup, the ASIC chip in the ECU that front ends the signal coming from the two reluctors also uses the CAM signal to determine what firing cylinder the engine is on when it starts to crank. It only needs one sensor to figure it out because of the unique crank signal pattern combined with the CAM phase will tell the ASIC what cylinder it is with in 26deg of rotation. I think is about 3 discret pulses from the reluctor wheel which if memory serves me right are about 8.x deg apart but have varying duty cycles. So the second sensor is only for redundancy if the fist one fails or the CAM sensor fails.

The block changed quite a lot in 00 so that may be why the are situated differently then before, but I do not know on this one.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #556, 12-03-2009 01:19 AM
      I've torn a couple of '00-'04 engines apart. I don't think the block really changed *that* much. The crank sensor bosses moved a little bit, but that's all that was obvious.

There was a mount boss of some sort added to the lower crank case just below the crank pulley... That required a change to the front cover. That boss may have been added in '98 or so, though. The windage tray and oil manifold changed a couple of times in minor ways. The big annoyance with that was that they moved the alignment dowels also, so your oil manifold has to match your lower crank case.

'00 pistons were flat tops, and '99 had valve reliefs. The '99- and '00+ used the same head gasket, so the deck changes were a product of the '05 redesign. I'll have to snag one of those engines to take a look at it.

Could use an '05 block with the '00-'04 crank and not have the deck interface issues you're having? (IOW, were the crank sensor bosses moved again in '05)? Sounds like there are some big changes at the front end of the engine for '05. Do you have pics of your '05 heads? Or of the problem areas?


Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #557, 12-04-2009 01:40 PM
      I have nothing to add, but wanted to say that I appreciate the dialogue on the interchange and ECM info. I'm taking notes!

Bryce


mrgrimes (dgarrett@ethandiesel.com) MSG #558, 12-04-2009 11:34 PM
      Thank for the info Will. I know the casting material changed on the +00 blocks too, but I can't remember where I heard that.

As for the 05 block with the 04 crank, the back end of the block, oil manifold, and pan are very different than < 05, so much so that it would not fix in my corvette. Add that I already modified my 04 oil pan for a dry sump and 04 and 05 oil pans are different. The 05 engine was off an AWD caddy, the oil pan had a big hole in it where the drive shaft passed through.

I will attempt to take some pictures of the heads this week end.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #559, 12-05-2009 12:52 AM
      Oh! You're running RWD heads on a FWD block... no wonder you're having difficulties. I thought you were running '05 FWD heads on an '04 FWD block.

AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #560, 12-07-2009 03:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Sounds like you're neck deep in it. I don't think I'll ever get that deep into the actual programming side of the house, but I have lots of ideas for different algorithms to try in an ECM.

I've been curious about using the product of MAP and IAT for the load axis of a spark map instead of MAP by itself. I think that would more accurately represent the likelihood of detonation and result in a better ability to control detonation.

What I'd like to try when I get back from Iraq is to use the 0411 (which I believe is the computer you're talking about) with the code from a G-Van with Vortec 350, tuned with either EFI Live of HP Tuners (probably EFI LIve to leverage some other nutty projects I want to try). I'd use the Northstar DIS brick. If that works that's probably as far as I'd go with engine management on the '99- engines.

So I understand from what you said that the '00+ reluctor wheel is the same as the LS1 reluctor wheel. Does the Northstar continue to use two crank sensors to synch faster?
The positions of the crank sensors were tweaked slightly for '00. Do you know why that was done? For example, was it to make the "reference angle" variable the same between the two engines?

If I put the '00-'04 crank into my engine, would I be able to run it with the 0411 and LS1 program (and just tweak whatever amounts to a crank reference angle)?
That would upgrade me from DIS to coil/cylinder, but I'm just curious as I'm not about to change crankshafts for that relatively small benefit.

It sounds like you're building a pretty sweet engine and you've really cherry picked the best parts of the roller cam FWD engines.

Do you have flow numbers for the '05 heads? What oil system mods were necessary?


That is funny stuff Will


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #561, 12-14-2009 06:16 AM
      I'm a funny guy.

mrgrimes (dgarrett@ethandiesel.com) MSG #562, 12-22-2009 01:02 AM
      OK I finally got around to it.












mrgrimes (dgarrett@ethandiesel.com) MSG #563, 12-22-2009 01:06 AM
      Also these are the differences between < 02 and > 02 valves

2004/2005/2002

Intake
Valve: 1.42‚ÄĚ
Lift: .395‚ÄĚ
Stem: 6mm

Exhaust
Valve: 1.16‚ÄĚ
Lift: .365‚ÄĚ
Stem: 6mm


Wrist Pin
Dia: .866‚ÄĚ
Length: 2.4‚ÄĚ
1996

Intake
Valve: 1.3‚ÄĚ
Lift: .370‚ÄĚ
Stem: 6mm
Duration: 266¬į

Exhaust
Valve: 1.14
Lift: .339‚ÄĚ
Stem: 6mm
Duration: 244¬į


afgun MSG #564, 01-01-2010 01:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
So I understand from what you said that the '00+ reluctor wheel is the same as the LS1 reluctor wheel. Does the Northstar continue to use two crank sensors to synch faster?
The positions of the crank sensors were tweaked slightly for '00. Do you know why that was done? For example, was it to make the "reference angle" variable the same between the two engines?


The reluctor wheel is not the same, nor the sensors that read it... however, the patterns look to be similar, if not the same. The LS1 24x reluctor is a pressed-together pair of opposite wheels. The 2000+ N* reluctor wheel is machined with simple highs and lows. I measured both patterns with a caliper and generated a spreadsheet... they matched, the 24x reluctor wheel that I have, in the opposites with the high/low patterns on the late N* crank. What I don't know is if they align on the same TDC or not; I would suspect that they do, but haven't gotten a chance to verify yet. I also haven't gotten a battery to spin the N* on my engine stand to scope the reluctor signals out yet.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
If I put the '00-'04 crank into my engine, would I be able to run it with the 0411 and LS1 program (and just tweak whatever amounts to a crank reference angle)?
That would upgrade me from DIS to coil/cylinder, but I'm just curious as I'm not about to change crankshafts for that relatively small benefit.


That would only work if a few things worked out... 1, the primary crank sensor was in the same place on both motors, 2 the updated sensor fit in the same hole and mounted up and 3 if you swapped the cam gear and sensor to the later models... the early N* cam gear is a single point blip, whereas the later cam gear is a 50% on/off (pictures if you like).

I am going to try to use my 0411 to run both styles of engine, depending on which tune gets flashed into it. Finances have things on hold for me these days, though I'll probably make a trip out to the junkyard soon to pick up a cheap battery to at least scope out reluctor patterns with. Unless someone has a late N* crank that they want to machine the reluctor from and mail it to me.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #565, 01-01-2010 02:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mrgrimes:

OK I finally got around to it.




These are '05 front wheel drive heads? Interesting. I'll have to get an '05 engine and tear it down to see what makes it tick.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #566, 01-01-2010 02:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by afgun:

That would only work if a few things worked out... 1, the primary crank sensor was in the same place on both motors, 2 the updated sensor fit in the same hole and mounted up and 3 if you swapped the cam gear and sensor to the later models... the early N* cam gear is a single point blip, whereas the later cam gear is a 50% on/off (pictures if you like).

I am going to try to use my 0411 to run both styles of engine, depending on which tune gets flashed into it. Finances have things on hold for me these days, though I'll probably make a trip out to the junkyard soon to pick up a cheap battery to at least scope out reluctor patterns with. Unless someone has a late N* crank that they want to machine the reluctor from and mail it to me.


Thanks for the info on the trigger wheel.

I'm familiar with the Y2K engines... I just haven't taken apart anything as new as '05. The late crank in the early block should work with either a tweak to the reference angle in the PCM (if there is such a variable in the LS1 program) or by doing a block adjustment of the entire timing table to compensate for the difference in crank sensor location (only 2 degrees or so).

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-01-2010).]

philbur120 (pvriesinga@gmail.com) MSG #567, 04-07-2010 11:46 PM
      Lots of good info here guys! I will possibly starting a rebuild soon, just need to find a new block.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #568, 04-08-2010 12:29 PM
      Just get a whole engine: www.car-parts.com

Hope your learning curve is shallower than mine was...


Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #569, 04-09-2010 11:29 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Just get a whole engine: www.car-parts.com

Hope your learning curve is shallower than mine was...


No doubt! Everything I learned about reasons not to rebuild a Northstar, I learned from you, Will. From what I've learned of the Northstar, inserts and head gaskets are about as far as I'd go into one. If anything in the bottom end rotating assembly is screwed up, it looks like the best method of repair is replacement. As cheap as these engines are used, it's hard to justify anything otherwise (on a cost basis).

I'm still curious to see how the over-complicated rebuild turns out in the long run...but probably not nearly as curious as Will.

Bryce


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #570, 04-09-2010 04:48 PM
      Haha... It only has a few dozen little gotchas...

The biggest of course is getting the hone job right on the ridiculously hard iron in the bore liners.
The next is installing threaded inserts. I went for head bolts AND main bolts, of course.
Rod bearings are $20 each.
Odd bore size means it's hard to get top shelf piston rings.
Case halves don't seal with the factory seals, just oodles of anaerobic goo.
Must stretch rod bolts BEFORE installing lower crank case.
Some subsets of engine components were changed together, but not all subsets changed in the same year.
Valve cover gaskets for '99 and older engines are hard to get. Once they swell up they are non-reusable.
Stainless fuel rails.
Harmonic balancer bolt size changed. Bolt must match crankshaft of course.
Nobody makes 8mm flywheel bolts.

etc. etc.

I'm just curious about really driving the thing...


ALLTRBO MSG #571, 05-03-2010 10:21 PM
      I'm never gonna quit saying this...

Will has built the most reliable 320hp V8 evar.



I just told him to order (much) lower compression pistons and slap a huge single turbo on there with a '730 ECU and make 600hp without even blinking, but he wants to do things the hard way. (He really is an engineer in mindset and by trade. I'm just a power junkie with a lesser engineering mindset, heh)


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #572, 05-13-2010 02:03 PM
      At my school we have these "Pasco 750" computer interfaces:

http://www.pasco.com/featur...rkshop-750/index.cfm

It connects to the computer, and has several analog and digital inputs. It's kind of a user-programmable generic thing.
Once the data is recorded, it can be further processed/analyzed, and put into a spreadsheet.

I have no idea what the cost is though. Probably $$$.

Or, you could just run it for a fixed amount of time (like a week), and see how many times the RPM switch gets triggered with the counter to determine the cycle time...

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 05-13-2010).]

KurtAKX MSG #573, 05-13-2010 07:11 PM
      Not sure why you're talking about entry-level DAQs, but since you are, here's another sub-$1000 option....
http://www.omega.com/pptst/OMB-Daq55.html

I've used these before, they're not the greatest ever but they work, they're cheap, they're easy, and the software's free for life IIRC.

Omega gets them from another company (that I don't remember the name of) and re-brands 'em.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #574, 05-14-2010 12:57 PM
      He's answering this thread: http://realfierotech.com/ph...opic.php?f=3&t=17162

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #575, 07-21-2010 01:36 PM
      Back to work...

Magnecor wires on the way.
Injectors at machine shop for cleaning & flow testing (don't want to kill a new engine with a stuck injector).

Might have time this afternoon to pull the thermostat housing and come up with a better thermostat seal.

Ordered a 3.5" donut from The Chassis Shop ( http://secure.chassisshop.com/Default.aspx?PBURL=/ ) for use in plumbing a proper cold air intake.


Fie Ro (roderick.baas@tros.nl) MSG #576, 07-21-2010 02:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Ordered a 3.5" donut from The Chassis Shop ( http://secure.chassisshop.com/Default.aspx?PBURL=/ ) for use in plumbing a proper cold air intake.


Why not using silicone hose bends (Samco) as metal soaks up a lot of heat..defeating 'cold' air intake.?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #577, 07-21-2010 02:22 PM
      It's hard to weld silicone to the base of the stock airbox.

Nashco (nashco@hotmail.com) MSG #578, 07-23-2010 01:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

It's hard to weld silicone to the base of the stock airbox.


You're just not trying hard enough....wuss.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #579, 07-24-2010 05:37 PM
      Magnecor wires arrived. Injectors should be ready next week.

Need to fix the thermostat housing seal.


IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #580, 07-24-2010 07:59 PM
      How do the Magnecor's look for fitment?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #581, 07-26-2010 02:06 PM
      Haven't tried yet... going to pick up the injectors at the end of this week and put both in at the same time.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #582, 07-29-2010 02:07 PM
      Picking up the injectors tomorrow.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #583, 07-31-2010 11:58 PM
      Injector pickup didn't go as planned. The shop hadn't received them back from the shop he sent them to. He had expected them back as well. He called and was told that only 3 of the injectors worked correctly, 3 were dead and 2 were intermittent. He sent me this info via email. I haven't spoken to him directly about it yet.

I KNOW my dad and I had all 8 of those working on the bench last year. I also know that there's no way the engine had a dead miss on three cylinders when I had it running. We blew out the varnish when I got it running last year, and it sat all year with race gas in the fuel rail, so the injector shouldn't be *that* gunked up... but maybe they could.
It almost sounds like the injectors are stuck and the guy checked them by hitting them with +12 once and didn't try anything else. Now I didn't check their operation pressurized, so there may be problems I didn't find, but I *KNOW* they all operated.

Anyway... won't solve anything until I get my shop on the phone Monday. In the mean time I left another set of injectors on his doorstep.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-31-2010).]

IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #584, 08-01-2010 01:24 AM
      Are your injectors stock or are you using a higher flow injector?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #585, 08-01-2010 01:44 AM
      Stock until I get tunable engine management.

IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #586, 08-01-2010 01:12 PM
      I was talking with CHRF and Alan mentioned that the stock injectors would not handle the 272 cams I have. I understand that he uses Ford racing injectors for his configurations. He did also say that I could use the stock injectors if I turned the fuel pump pressure up to 65 lbs. But he noted that option would need to be monitored to confirm that the injectors are keep up with the required flow at WOT.

I'm going to go that route first, if I ever get this thing running right.


AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #587, 08-01-2010 03:33 PM
      65 PSI will hydrolock the injectors and or lean out the engine. I ran a bunch of testing on the OE injectors

aaron88 MSG #588, 08-01-2010 09:25 PM
      I don't know about 65 psi because the O&M has this big thing in it telling you to make sure your fuel rail pressure never goes above 60 psi. However I can say that I ran my motor (1998) with stock injectors and the fuel rail at 60 psi for almost 12 000 km.

I'll also say this. I don't know what the spray patern of the injectors looked like but from the O2 sensor readings I know that now that I'm adding power I better increase the injectors, because the stocks were at max duty cycle (80+%)WOT & .6 volts at 6500rpm.

[This message has been edited by aaron88 (edited 08-01-2010).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #589, 08-02-2010 12:19 PM
      Wow... injectors are so damn cheap that there's no excuse risking your engine trying to run them at 90+% DC or higher than rated fuel pressures. I could get a set of 19# Ford injectors for $50 on ebay. I didn't check 30's and 36's, but those sizes are common as dirt as well and will support nearly double the stock horsepower.

You guys have done Northstar swaps... don't cheap out on the injectors.

The only reason for not upgrading now is that I want to drive the car before I upgrade to tunable engine management.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #590, 08-08-2010 01:34 PM
      2nd set of injectors had 7% variation across the set. That should be 2% for high performance use.

Of course I didn't think to ask what the actual measured flow rates were. So now I need to get that info (maybe Monday) before I can get replacements.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #591, 08-08-2010 08:21 PM
      Forgot about this thread from a while back.

Thanks Ryan.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/A...100421-2-087228.html


AJxtcman (ajjodie@comporium.net) MSG #592, 08-10-2010 08:18 PM
      These are the correct numbers for 1999 4.0L Shelby
Can you tell me if all 96 to 99 4.0L & 4.6L supersede to the same part?
I think I checked into this at one time and they all came up to the same replacement number.
Vacuum Vs. Injector Flow Rate
29.9" (VAC) 2.172 gm/sec or 17.2 #/hr
28.4" (VAC) 2.203 gm/sec or 17.5 #/hr
27" (VAC) 2.305 gm/sec or 18.3 #/hr
25.5" (VAC) 2.406 gm/sec or 19.1 #/hr
24" (VAC) 2.453 gm/sec or 19.5 #/hr
22.5" (VAC) 2.469 gm/sec or 19.6 #/hr
21.1" (VAC) 2.570 gm/sec or 20.4 #/hr
19.6" (VAC) 2.633 gm/sec or 20.9 #/hr
18.1" (VAC) 2.648 gm/sec or 21.0 #/hr
16.6" (VAC) 2.656 gm/sec or 21.1 #/hr
15.2" (VAC) 2.664 gm/sec or 21.1 #/hr
13.7" (VAC) 2.695 gm/sec or 21.4 #/hr
12.2" (VAC) 2.789 gm/sec or 22.1 #/hr
10.7" (VAC) 2.898 gm/sec or 23.0 #/hr
9.3" (VAC) 2.953 gm/sec or 23.4 #/hr
7.8" (VAC) 2.977 gm/sec or 23.6 #/hr
6.3" (VAC) 3.016 gm/sec or 23.9 #/hr


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #593, 09-13-2010 10:08 AM
      The injector shop measured an average of about 190 cc/min from the stock injectors, which is 19 lbs/hr. After spending a couple of weeks getting ebay to reset my password, I was finally able to order a set of 19# Ford Motorsport injectors. Those arrived on the 4th and I took them to the shop for flow testing, etc. that day. I should get them back next weekend and be able to get the car back on the road at that time.

In the mean time, I have installed a new select cable and prepped an 11.25" brake setup to go on the car. I currently have Beretta brakes on it, which suck. From the current configuration, 11.25's should be a bolt-on. I also installed a 2nd Rodney Dickman decklid strut. Yes, I am upgrading the brakes on a car that does not yet move under its own power.

I pulled the cast aluminum thermostat housing off the side of the waterpump. I bead blasted it to clean it up and am looking at how the thermostat o-ring fits in it. Short of using RTV or some other additional sealant, the best bet is to assemble the thermostat housing and hose connection outside the car where I can be sure the o-ring isn't kinked or crimped, and then install the housing to the waterpump and hook things up. I'm also going to pressure test the system with a low pressure regulator prior to start via the hollow bolt GM used for the throttle body coolant line and which I have capped off. I should look at installing a petcock or quick disconnect to that location...

I have the dreaded steering wheel goo. Is there a way to fix that, or do I need to change out the steering wheel? I already have a telescoping column from a Cadillac from which I will cannibalize parts to give my car a telescoping column.

Edit: dug up this thread about steering wheel reskinning: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/100270.html
A couple of people on that thread recommend these guys: http://www.dallassteeringwheel.com
Their website shows some pretty nice work. I'll have to give them a call.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-13-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #594, 09-20-2010 05:17 PM
      Does it run yet?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #595, 09-26-2010 09:34 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Does it run yet?


Soooooo close, and yet so far.

Injectors are in. I pumped the year old 110 + 93 mix out of the tank. The fuel system is ready to go. I have a 5 gallon can full of new 110 for the break in drive.

I'm having problems getting the thermostat housing to seal. I've been playing with that the last couple of weekends.
I have pictures and story, but it will be more convenient to post them this evening.

I've also been installing 11.25" front brakes, and have story and pictures for that also. The fitting seized to the tube for the right front. I need to replace the tube, but the Fierostore only lists the brake lines as a SET for $150ish. Grrr...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-26-2010).]

Bloozberry MSG #596, 09-26-2010 10:16 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I could get a set of 19# Ford injectors for $50 on ebay. You guys have done Northstar swaps... don't cheap out on the injectors.



My injectors have been sitting idle for God only knows how long in some scrap yard before I bought the engine, and now that I have it, they've been sitting on my workbench for over a year. I looked into cleaning and flow checking them except nobody in the area provides this service. The best I can get is a cleaning with the injectors installed and engine running... hardly useful in my case. It sounds like getting new injectors is the way to go, so do these 19 lb Ford injectors fit the stock Caddy fuel rail without modification? How about the electrical connector... is it the same as the Caddy? What part number are these injectors?

And BTW... why hasn't this thread been moved to the construction zone yet? Did you pee in IMSA GT's cereal?


IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #597, 09-27-2010 01:19 AM
      I just put the Ford 30 lb injectors in mine. I see them listed as Ford racing injectors on ebay. They are Bosch part number 0280155759 and are all red and the newer style slender ones. They fit no problem if they are the style that your referring to. Here's a link with a pic: http://www.boschdealer.com/...ath=1&products_id=26

Glad your getting closer Will.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #598, 10-03-2010 10:36 AM
      OK, here goes...

IT RUNS!!!!!!

For those of you who don't know, the Northstar uses a recirculating thermostat. Under all operating conditions, it sends more water back into the engine than it allows to go to the radiator. This complicates thermostat and thermostat housing design significantly, but this is the way modern engines have to work to pass emissions. The benefits are quicker, more homogeneous warm-up of the engine components.

The Northstar thermostat housing is cast aluminum. The thermostat slips in from one end. A flange on the thermostat seats in the bottom of the housing and the recirculation valve spring is compressed as the main thermostat flange & seal are seated in a shallow counterbore at the face of the housing. A stamped steel hose connection is bolted on to hold the thermostat in place. There is an inlaid rubber seal that seals the T-stat housing to the waterpump housing. The inlaid seal seems to be a very reliable method, as I had no problems with that interface on either the test plate or the waterpump.

The main thermostat seal is like an exterior grommet for the thermostat flange. It is squeezed between the bottom of the counterbore in the housing face and the flat surface of the hose connection.

When I first fired the engine last year before I went to Iraq, there was a significant leak between the hose connection and the housing. I didn't have time to dig into it then, so I left it in my dad's back yard for a year.

When I got back and pulled the housing off, I found that both the housing and the hose connection were kind of icky. I bead blasted them and sprayed primer + epoxy paint onto the hose connection. After playing with it, I found that the thermostat has a preferential orientation in the housing. WTF, GM? Also getting the thermostat flange seal to seat properly is something that takes some care. This means that installing the Northstar thermostat is a bench operation to be performed with the t-stat housing removed from the waterpump. Most design items on the Northstar are clean and efficient, but this is not one of them.

I took a piece of 1/4" plate 8" square and made a quick/dirty pressure test plate for Northstar thermostat housings. I can bolt the housing to the plate, cap off the heater and radiator return connections, pressurize the assembly to 4-5 psi using a low pressure regulator attached to a fitting in the plate, then (found after some experimentation with technique) immerse the whole shebang in a bucket of water. Leaks are instantly apparent.

I pressure tested the setup after carefully seating the thermostat/hose connection and it still leaked. I turned the hose connection 180 degrees and the leak followed the hose connection. I examined the hose connection more closely and found the sealing surface (though very smooth from the epoxy paint) was not flat. Sigh.

I swapped the hose connection from the '95 engine I'd originally swapped into the car onto the '93 T-stat housing. That didn't leak nearly as much as the all-'93 combo did, but still leaked a tiny bit. Years of ownership of a Pontiac 6000 have made me utterly unwilling to put up with the smell of coolant every time I open the hood, so I did NOT use this combo on the car. I believe that T-stat housing leaked because of corrosion pitting in the seal counterbore.

I went out to the shed and pulled FOUR more thermostat housing/hose connection assemblies from waterpumps in my collection. I tested the cleanest looking one and it stayed tight, so I installed the whole assembly to the car unmolested. I had prepped the '93 waterpump housing with a gasket scraped followed by sand paper on the sealing surface. As I said above, I have had no problems getting that interface to seal.

I filled the cooling system and pressure tested it to 12 psi through the Northstar's purge port on the waterpump housing. There was a small drip from the hose on the hose connection. The hose probably should be replaced soon, but I seated it a little further and snugged the hose clamp a little tighter and it sealed.

My dad and I poured the 5 gallons of 110 into the tank. I keyed on to prime the fuel system and found the battery was a doornail. We tried to charge it, but found it would not take a charge. It had sat far too long with a minute drain from the Cadillac instrument panel I use for a scan tool. My dad's on good terms with the proprietor of the local CarQuest. We always get batteries from him. While he closes at noon on Saturdays, he knew he had the battery in stock, went back to his store at 4 pm to get it and even brought it by my dad's house on his way home. Talk about service!

With a new battery installed, we primed the fuel system a few times to fill & pressurize the lines to check for leaks. None found.

3-2-1 CONTACT! It fired first crank and settled into a fast idle. The brakes were VERY high effort as I backed it out of the driveway, but I judged them sufficient to get this breaking-in show on the road, since I was using up my break-in window with every revolution.

I drove out of town and 6 miles to the next town to get on the highway. Temperature came up and stayed constant at the 1/4 mark on the gauge. A couple of blasts to pass country drivers on the two-lane reminded me how genuinely quick this car is. It will go from 50 to 90 in third in the blink of an eye covering the distance it takes to pass one car.

I got on the highway, put it in second and started the break in runs. I had forgotten how *VISCERAL* and sensory the experience of driving this car is. I don't so much sit in the car as I plug into it. The engine is firmly staked down with 4 urethane mounts. You can feel EVERYTHING the engine is doing, yet it's a V8, so it's smooth. The sensation is unlike anything else I've ever driven.

To stab the throttle is to be lifted bodily as the engine picks up the ENTIRE CAR, digs in and GOES like a sprinter leaving the blocks. The power delivery is like a punch in the kidneys.

Lifting off the pedal at redline is something done out of necessity rather than desire. The engine seems like it will pull forever. Once the throttle is closed, the whirr and snarl of approximately 3 BILLION mechanical parts moving in frantic and frenetic yet symphonic motion two feet behind my head asserts itself over the more muted exhaust note. Engine braking that feels like maximum acceleration with the 2.8 suspends me forward in the seatbelt. Who needs brakes when you have a high compression V8, a light flywheel and stiff gears?

Once back from redline to ~4000 RPM, I floor it again. And again. And again. And...

After a couple dozen cycles, the temperature has climbed to the "220" mark on the gauge. In retrospect, I should have had my dad watching coolant temp on the scan cluster, but didn't think about it at the time, for obvious reasons. The temp is OK, as Northstars LIKE to run warm.

I slipped it into 5th and drove like a sane person for a minute or two. The temp came RIGHT BACK DOWN to the 1/4 mark from whence it started. Cooling system and head gasket success! I'm running a stock (original!) V6 manual trans radiator and don't even have a hood vent. The original install didn't have any temperature control problems, so I suspect that the temp excursions I saw on this "test flight" were simply the result of an incompletely purged cooling system. HOWEVER, I am now driving the gauge via a 3 wire temp sensor in the factory CTS location, so I may simply have not been seeing temperature excursions previously, due to the old gauge sender's location in the heater circuit.

With the temp back down I dropped it back to second and started beating on it some more. As the temp climbed up to 220 again, I was getting to the foot of the mountain. I slowed to turn around at the first pulloff and was passed by a sport bike rider. I had *EVIL* thoughts about playing with him on the mountain, but was able to think clearly enough to stay focused on the task at hand.

I came back down the mountain and was about to start runs in THIRD gear when I had a complete loss of engine power. The engine was still turning, sounded good and all indications were healthy, so I was much more puzzled than panicked. Working the throttle changed the sound but did nothing else. I coasted to a slow speed and pulled off the road. I keyed on and did not hear the fuel pump. My dad touched the fuel pump relay while I tried again and the relay cycled. I checked the fuse box and found the F PUMP fuse blown. I did not have another 10A fuse in the car, but I did have a 15A. I put it in the fuse box and it blew the instant I touched it to the contacts. Uh oh. Serious short to ground.

We called my mom to bring the Suburban to tow us back to the house. While waiting I looked around the engine bay and found the brake booster vacuum connection not connected. Woops! Mystery of the high effort brakes solved! Mystery of the fast idle solved!

Coming back home on the tow rope I slipped the trans into 5th and let the engine turn. This energized the alternator, gave me vacuum for the power brakes and kept the rope snug and off the pavement--but not too tight--with no brain power expended on my part.
At one point my dad had to get on the truck's brakes unexpectedly. I stabbed the Fiero brakes and since I now had brake boost, locked the front tires accidentally for a split second. These 11.25" brakes really work. Locking the brakes accidentally and with ease was a completely new experience in a Fiero.

So the car's in the driveway and I'm about to take my DVM out to hunt down the short in the fuel pump circuit. My initial guess is that the oil pressure sender (NEW unit from Olds Aurora) has failed shorted to ground. The 15A fuse blew at a time when neither the relay nor the oil pressure switch should be conducting current to the pump, so the fault is likely "upstream" of those components.

The '87 shop manual (specs to which my wiring harness is built) shows the F PUMP fuse supplying secondary current for the fuel pump relay (and of course current for the fuel pump) in parallel with the oil pressure switch/sender. There's nothing else on that circuit.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-03-2010).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #599, 10-03-2010 10:40 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

My injectors have been sitting idle for God only knows how long in some scrap yard before I bought the engine, and now that I have it, they've been sitting on my workbench for over a year. I looked into cleaning and flow checking them except nobody in the area provides this service. The best I can get is a cleaning with the injectors installed and engine running... hardly useful in my case. It sounds like getting new injectors is the way to go, so do these 19 lb Ford injectors fit the stock Caddy fuel rail without modification? How about the electrical connector... is it the same as the Caddy? What part number are these injectors?

And BTW... why hasn't this thread been moved to the construction zone yet? Did you pee in IMSA GT's cereal?


 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:

I just put the Ford 30 lb injectors in mine. I see them listed as Ford racing injectors on ebay. They are Bosch part number 0280155759 and are all red and the newer style slender ones. They fit no problem if they are the style that your referring to. Here's a link with a pic: http://www.boschdealer.com/...ath=1&products_id=26

Glad your getting closer Will.


I'll probably go with 36# units when I get a tunable engine management.
The FMS design I, II and III injectors are all mechanically compatible with the Northstar fuel rail and manifold. The Design I & II injectors have only the EV1 connector, which is the same as the factory Northstar injectors. The Design III injectors can have either the EV1 or EV6 connector. The EV6 connector requires harness adapters.

The spray pattern for the 19# FMS injectors, however, is optimized to a single intake valve rather than two. For best results with a tunable EMS, an injector with a bi-conic spray pattern, designed for dual intake valves, should be used. Such *should be* readily available in the DSM, Honda and Import world.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #600, 10-03-2010 11:02 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:

How do the Magnecor's look for fitment?


Not what I expected for the money.

They all reach.
The rear bank wires are perfect.
The front bank wires are all the same length and 3 or more inches too short. They can not be routed around the end of the coil pack as GM did stock. They have to go straight over the coil pack and intake manifold to reach the plugs.
My coil pack is mounted on the left mount locations, approximately centered on the rear cam cover.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #601, 10-03-2010 11:05 AM
      I still have the break-in oil and dissolved assembly lube in the engine. Sometime soon I'm going to need to change that out (all 7 quarts of it), clean out the Pure Power oil filter and use the 2nd half of my 5 gallon bucket of Shell Rotella T CI-4 10W30.

Cometic has recommended that I retorque the head studs following the initial thermal cycles. Joy. I *think* I can do that with the cradle fully bolted for the rear bank and only have to drop the rear of the cradle (with weight on wheels) to do the front bank. I think.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-04-2010).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #602, 10-03-2010 11:32 AM
      Disconnect C203; Probe both sides of pins B & L (ALDL pin G should have same readings as engine side of C203-L)

DVM indicates:

C203-B body side to ground: OPEN (expected)
C203-L body side to ground: 3.1 Ohm (expected; Fuel Pump motor)
C203-B engine side to ground: -6 Ohm (Yes, MINUS six ohms)
C203-L engine side to ground: 40 k-Ohm (undesirable but harmless)

Step next:
DISCONNECT NEGATIVE BATTERY CABLE YOU IDIOT
Disconnect Fuel Pump Relay and reprobe body side of B & L
C203-B engine side to ground: 0.2 Ohm (Ground fault)
C203-L engine side to ground: 40 k-Ohm

Step after:
Disconnect oil pressure sender and reprobe
C203-B engine side to ground: OPEN
C203-L engine side to ground: 40 k-Ohm

Then:
Reinstall fuel pump relay
C203-B engine side to ground: 3.5 Ohm
C203-L engine side to ground: 40 k-Ohm

Huh?:
Disconnect fuel pump relay
C203-B engine side to ground: 10 Ohm (also reflected on Fuel Pump Relay pin D)
C203-L engine side to ground: 40 k-Ohm
Meter indicates relay has correct continuity and isolation.

Assume: Relay is ok and reading going from 3.5 Ohm to 10 Ohm is the result of manipulating harness with wiring fault.

Great. I have a serious wiring fault on ckt 440.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-03-2010).]

Bloozberry MSG #603, 10-03-2010 11:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Cometic has recommended that I retorque the head studs following the initial thermal cycles.


How do you plan to do that? Loosen them all back off and start with the four step process all over again (22 lbft/60*/60*/60*)? That could get fun... NOT!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #604, 10-03-2010 11:56 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:
How do you plan to do that? Loosen them all back off and start with the four step process all over again (22 lbft/60*/60*/60*)? That could get fun... NOT!


On Alan Johnson's recommendation, I torqued the studs to 70 ftlbs. With plenty of ARP moly assembly lube under the nuts and on the upper threads, that should be fine. To retorque, I'll just break them loose one at a time and bring them back up to 70 ftlbs. I'll probably add a little more assembly lube to the nuts.

The GM torque sequence does not apply to MLS gaskets because they don't compress the same as GM's composition head gaskets do.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-03-2010).]

Bloozberry MSG #605, 10-03-2010 03:50 PM
      Well that should be a lot easier. I can't imagine trying to use the angle meter successfully on the front head bolts with it facing the other way. You'd need a mirror and then lefty-loosey-righty-tighty gets all jumbled up.

30+mpg (wshaw@par1.net) MSG #606, 10-04-2010 08:43 PM
      I though retorque meant to torque the bolts in sequence to the recommended final spec to take up any slack due to streching, not to loosen & retighten. That how I did Fiat & Lancia heads.

Congrats on getting it running. When was the previous time under power, 7 years ago?


Bloozberry MSG #607, 10-04-2010 09:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 30+mpg:

I though retorque meant to torque the bolts in sequence to the recommended final spec to take up any slack due to streching, not to loosen & retighten.


That's how it's done on many engines, but the standard Northstar head bolt tightening sequence goes like this:

First tighten all bolts to 22 lbft, then go over them a second time at the same torque setting
Second, turn each bolt (in the proper sequence) an additional 60 degrees;
Third, turn each bolt again an additional 60 degrees; and
Finally, turn each bolt yet again an additional 60 degrees.

So in the end, you're not torquing to a value you can set on your torque wrench, but rather a specific number of degrees of rotation after the nominal 22 lbft is achieved. This makes retorquing the head bolts not as straight forward as just dialing up the wrench and retightening them to the original torque value. With the exception of Will's case, retorquing the headbolts on a typical Northstar would involve loosening them all, and running through the entire sequence all over again.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #608, 10-04-2010 09:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 30+mpg:

I though retorque meant to torque the bolts in sequence to the recommended final spec to take up any slack due to streching, not to loosen & retighten. That how I did Fiat & Lancia heads.


A head bolt shouldn't permanently deform. However, since those are Italian cars and Ducati had to develop desmodromic valve actuation because they couldn't get good spring steel...

Loosening the bolt first is the best practice. Because the coefficient of moving friction is lower than the coefficient of static friction... if the bolt/nut is turning when the torque wrench clicks, then less of the torque is mitigated by friction and more is applied to pulling the bolt/stud (and sealing the head gasket).


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #609, 10-09-2010 09:17 PM
      I was at the junk yard *ALL* day today getting parts for the Eagle, so I didn't get the wiring problem sorted.

However, I *DID* find an '87 4 cyl 5 speed in the crush row that had *beautiful* grey leather seats, probably Mister Mike's seat covers, and in *excellent* condition. The yard gave me the seats for free with all the other stuff my dad and I bought. Sweet.

Although I didn't get The Mule going, I did grab a Dana 44 with 3.54 gears for my '85 AMC Eagle wagon.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #610, 10-24-2010 10:19 AM
      This is my pressure test plate for Northstar thermostat housings


This is a Northstar thermostat housing with the hose connection capped off


This is the inside of the T-stat housing. The center hole goes to the waterpump inlet. The waterpump pushes water into the block. The water returns from the heads to the water manifold and can go to the heater core, the radiator or back to the offset opening in this picture.
-If it goes to the heater core, it comes back to the smaller uncapped connection in the picture above, goes around the thermostat and straight into the waterpump inlet.
-If it goes to the radiator, it comes back to the capped connection in the picture above and is metered by the thermostat into the waterpump inlet
-If it goes straight back to the thermostat housing, it goes through the recirculation valve portion of the thermostat and back into the waterpump inlet.
-If the thermostat is closed, then the pressure at the offset inlet below lifts the recirculation valve (which is only spring loaded, not temp controlled) and goes back into the waterpump
-If the thermostat is open, then the water coming back from the radiator can go through the T-stat to the waterpump inlet. Since there is less recirculation flow from the engine, there is less pressure holding the recirc valve open and the spring force closes it.


This is the disassembled t-stat housing. The red circle highlights a feature of the housing that requires preferential orientation of the T-stat itself


This is the Northstar thermostat. The red circle highlights the part of the T-stat that interacts with the highlighted feature of the housing to require a preferential orientation. WTF? Why, GM, why?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-24-2010).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #611, 10-24-2010 10:53 AM
      After typing out the big block of text above, I decided that a picture was worth a thousand words and explained it graphically.
The recirculating nature of the thermostat balances flow from all these inputs to keep water temp constant.




Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #612, 10-24-2010 11:08 AM
      Here's a pic of my engine compartment with the shiny SS fuel rail, orange top injectors and F@#$ING RED, BITCHES!!!1! plug wires:


Here's a pic of my FREE Mr. Mike's seats. They're not pristine, but they're awesome for the price! There's a tiny bit of wear on the driver's outer bolster, but other than that they just need a tiny bit of cleaning.


Bloozberry MSG #613, 10-24-2010 06:39 PM
      Hmmm... now I'll have to go and double check my thermostat to see if I installed it right. I'm still not 100% clear on the orientation of the Tstat though. It might help if you could describe where the semi-circular notch in the lowest part of the Tstat goes in relation to some part of the housing.

Edit: Nice score on the seats!

[This message has been edited by Bloozberry (edited 10-24-2010).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #614, 10-24-2010 09:32 PM
      The half-circle notches in the bottom flange of the thermostat don't care where they go. That flange is the recirculation valve.
The only things that establish the preferential orientation are the two features I circled above.
You can't assemble it wrong, as the hose connection won't screw all the way down if it's not installed the right way. HOWEVER, installing it the right way when it's on the car and pointing away from you is difficult.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #615, 11-20-2010 11:21 PM
      If it's too LOUD, you're too OLD.

Got the car back on the road today. I probably covered about 60 miles. It still freaking loud. It's still freaking visceral. My memories from back in the day don't have it coming up on the cam quite as aggressively as it does now, but it has been a while since I drove it regularly.

I wouldn't have expected the increase in compression, improvement in quench, or other tweaks to the short block to have a significant effect on the shape of the power curve.

The trumpeting exhaust note is fantastic.

I did quite a few more break-in runs on the highway on the way out past the next town.
The temperature stayed MUCH more stable his time than it did the first time around. This is classic Northstar Fiero behavior, as it usually takes two thermal cycles to fully purge the cooling sytem.

I turned around at the foot of the mountain as before and headed back, driving like a sane person. I turned off the highway and went the drop by one of my dad's coworkers. He lives about 3/8 mile off the highway on the other side from where I'd been doing my break in runs. After a couple of hard revs in his driveway, he came out to look. I asked him if he'd heard anything in the last few minutes. He said that he'd heard someone who sounded like they were on the speedway (on the gas, off the gas, on the gas, etc) and he said it kinda sounded like a sportbike. He liked the car, is a machinist and has built quite a few really hard running engines and a few drag cars in his time.

I drove over the mountain to my friend's gas station. I forgot how sticky the tires I have on this car are. It has tremendous grip and with the stiff suspension handles very well. Of course New Market mountain isn't a very demanding road, but still amusing.

I left the rear sway-bar off when I put the car back together. I felt that it oversteered too much with the sway-bar on the rear. I'm going to see if I can get it to work well without. Based on just this initial drive, I think it's better without the rear bar.

Pulling out of my dad's coworker's drive, I nailed it in first. It felt like it broke loose in 1st, which would be the first time it's EVER done that. I grabbed 2nd pretty quickly, but not as hard as I could. The Spec Stage 3 did NOT come down very hard. I shifted to third and ran that gear out, then shifted to fifth and slowed for normal driving. I smelled clutch, about which I was not pleased. Grrr....

There's still a LONG way to go in terms of TLC to make the car a nice daily driver, but I can take care of all that if I get to drive it every day and work on the small things.

It needs all four marker light lenses, which I have.
It needs new fenders and nose, which I have.
It has a front main seal leak, which will be a PITA to fix.
It needs catalysts in the exhaust. I have the cats and will have a shop build up a quick/dirty catalyzed 2.5" dual exhaust to use to get the car inspected.
It needs a cold air intake, for which I have the parts, including a 3.5" exhaust donut.
It needs a rack bushing, which I have.
It currently has an RCC bump steer kit. I need to either go back to stock tie rods or completely re-engineer this kit, as it is utter crap.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #616, 11-25-2010 12:45 PM
      Now having traction problems in 1st gear for the first time.

It *is* cold here this time of year and the tires are eight years old, but still... I haven't had traction issues before.

It'll break 255 Firehawk SZ50-EP's (not crappy tires) loose from a roll in 1st on all but the best pavement.


Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #617, 11-25-2010 02:42 PM
      Need video

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #618, 11-26-2010 07:24 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
If it's too LOUD, you're too OLD.


Nope, if it's too loud you're smart enough to realize it and listen to your body say fix the exhaust or loose your hearing as if you're an old person.


IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #619, 11-26-2010 03:26 PM
      I guess I'm old. Mine is too loud as well.

I have headers, an 80 series flow master (which was fine on a 3800SC; but we have two more cylinders), and two tips that I made out of a cherry bomb cut in half and welded to two muffler tips. The N* auto swap I'm working on now with my son is going to get the trunk cut out with a big high flow truck muffler.


Russ544 MSG #620, 11-26-2010 06:06 PM
      Congrats Will!! glad to see you finally got that thing back on the road. it sounds like it was worth all the trials and tribulations you went through to get there however .

I saw where you mentioned that Cometic recomended to you that their headgaskets be re-torqued after a few heat cycles. were they sugesting that you do that with the standard head bolts as well???? or just when using studs? also, did you use the .061 gaskets or the thinner ones? I recently became aware that they make them in several different thickness, for what reason I do not know.

keep the shiny side up,
Russ


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #621, 11-26-2010 07:08 PM
      I have Cometic gaskets in .036 thickness: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../044924-12.html#p446

Since the Cometics don't compress the way the stock composition gaskets do, the stock T+A (hehe ) procedure can no longer be used.

At Alan Johnson's advice, I torqued the studs to 70 ftlbs. For a retorque, I'd just go through and break each one loose, then bring it back up to 70. At this time of year, to do that I'd have to take the car to the plant where my dad works and let it sit indoors overnight to make sure that the metal was at ~70 degrees.

I'm pretty sure I can do it with the engine in the car, however.

Found a tiny leak at the heater hose connection at the back end of the water manifold. The hose clamp was a little loose.

I took the car out last night, warmed it, ran it up to 120 then brought it back and drained the break-in oil. It's pretty nasty, thick and full of moly disulfide. There are shiny particles in the PurePower oil filter. I'm going to wash the filter out with lacquer thinner and try to capture them in a paint filter. I may be able to take said filter to the reliability lab at work and get micrographs of it.


Russ544 MSG #622, 11-26-2010 09:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I have Cometic gaskets in .036 thickness: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../044924-12.html#p446

Since the Cometics don't compress the way the stock composition gaskets do, the stock T+A (hehe ) procedure can no longer be used.

At Alan Johnson's advice, I torqued the studs to 70 ftlbs. For a retorque, I'd just go through and break each one loose, then bring it back up to 70. At this time of year, to do that I'd have to take the car to the plant where my dad works and let it sit indoors overnight to make sure that the metal was at ~70 degrees.

I'm pretty sure I can do it with the engine in the car, however.

Found a tiny leak at the heater hose connection at the back end of the water manifold. The hose clamp was a little loose.

I took the car out last night, warmed it, ran it up to 120 then brought it back and drained the break-in oil. It's pretty nasty, thick and full of moly disulfide. There are shiny particles in the PurePower oil filter. I'm going to wash the filter out with lacquer thinner and try to capture them in a paint filter. I may be able to take said filter to the reliability lab at work and get micrographs of it.


How do you plan to get the water pump drive pulley and valve cover removed with the engine still in the car? I gota see the video of that little trick.
Shiny stuff in the oil isn't generally a good thing. hope it all turns out ok for you.

Cheers,
Russ


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #623, 11-26-2010 10:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Russ544:

How do you plan to get the water pump drive pulley and valve cover removed with the engine still in the car? I gota see the video of that little trick.
Shiny stuff in the oil isn't generally a good thing. hope it all turns out ok for you.

Cheers,
Russ


It's break-in debris. I expected some of it (more than usual) since I did a hard break-in. We'll see how it turns out.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #624, 11-28-2010 10:39 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Russ544:

How do you plan to get the water pump drive pulley and valve cover removed with the engine still in the car? I gota see the video of that little trick.
Shiny stuff in the oil isn't generally a good thing. hope it all turns out ok for you.

Cheers,
Russ


Oh yeah... Waterpump drive. The pulley can come off in the car, then I unbolt the shaft seal from the cam cover. The hole under the shaft seal is large enough to give MUCH more latitude in removing the cam cover than if the seal is left in place. I'm not 100% sure it can be done, but I'm confident.


Russ544 MSG #625, 11-28-2010 12:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Oh yeah... Waterpump drive. The pulley can come off in the car, then I unbolt the shaft seal from the cam cover. The hole under the shaft seal is large enough to give MUCH more latitude in removing the cam cover than if the seal is left in place. I'm not 100% sure it can be done, but I'm confident.


I'm somewhat familar with the procedure .



as you know, even with the shaft seal removed, the other end of the cover has to be lifted fairly high to slide it off the end of the cam. I'm dubious if this can be done in the car, but I do look forward to the video .
I wish I had your patience to do all that you've done to your engine so far. You've done a great job!! I've found that one year is about my absolute max from the time I pull a car into my garage until the time I drive it out with modifications compleated. ohh to be young again GGGGG.

Cheers,
Russ

[This message has been edited by Russ544 (edited 11-28-2010).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #626, 11-28-2010 12:27 PM
      I know you've built one, as well as those TPC intakes.

The usual way is to leave the shaft seal in place. The cam cover still comes off, but is just a lot more finicky in *exactly* how it's maneuvered.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #627, 12-18-2010 09:38 PM
      Magnified pictures of the moly-disulfide junk that ended up in my filter:









Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #628, 12-18-2010 10:00 PM
      This is the location on the fuel pump power circuit that shorted and left me on the side of the road:



Bloozberry MSG #629, 12-18-2010 10:20 PM
      What kind of oil filter is that Will? It looks interesting.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #630, 12-19-2010 08:24 AM
      http://www.gopurepower.com/

Spin-on filter for Northstar application. It's about $200.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-19-2010).]

Bloozberry MSG #631, 12-19-2010 01:11 PM
      Hey! Your thread finally found a new home in the Construction Zone! Long overdue if you ask me. As for the oil filter, maybe I'll wait until my birthday... (cough, cough) they're nice but they're aweful pricey! I noticed when they say they'll pay for themselves, they specifically don't mention over what period of time! How did you find cleaning it? Easy?

ALLTRBO MSG #632, 12-19-2010 01:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:
Hey! Your thread finally found a new home in the Construction Zone! Long overdue if you ask me

Glad I could help.
For now, the threads need to be 'nominated' and worthy of the section for Cliff to move them here, as described at the top of the forum. So if you see a good build thread that isn't here yet, send a simple PM and it'll probably be moved.

Now that Will's car is (finally!) running (again!) and mine is almost complete (until the next mod gets installed anyway) and soon to be back home from the Haus of Guru, it's time to think about vids of mountain runs.
I just need to throw together a solid camera mount for MIDTRBO.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #633, 12-21-2010 10:18 AM
      Mountain runs need to wait until the weather warms up.

I put the oil filter back on and took the car for a spin Sunday night. I went down to a shopping center in the next town and turned around. As I was getting back on the highway, I was behind some WWD Ford thing. I moved over to the right lane and punched it in 2nd and it broke loose. Caveats: very cold pavement, salt on the road, yadda yadda... but it *DID* break loose from a roll in 2nd

The prescribed method of cleaning the filter is to spray brake cleaner from the inside out.

When I changed the break-in oil, I found the moly disulfide grease shown above in the oil filter. I tried lacquer thinner, brake cleaner and a trip through the dishwasher, but those methods were not effective. I finally scrubbed it with dish soap, hot water and a tooth brush to remove enough that I was comfortable reinstalling the filter. Brake cleaner may be good for later oil changes, but maybe not so much for the first when the oil is full of assembly lube.

I also replaced the front main seal, which was leaking between the seal OD and the front cover. I permatex'd the OD of the new seal. It hasn't yet accumulated enough run time to check that again.
Obviously for the front main to be replaced, the balancer must be removed. I reinstalled the balancer and tightened to the torque spec from the '97 manual that I have: 37 ftlbs + 120 degrees. For '95 or '96 the balancer bolt was reduced from 18 mm to 14 mm. The torque spec only changed from 43 ftlbs + 120 to 37 ftlbs. This seemed a little weird to me, but 'tev. The balancer clamps a sleeve that drives the oil pump. The sleeve has flats that provide a positive drive for the oil pump, but the crank only drives the sleeve via the clamp load from the balancer.

I was concerned that something was screwed up when I tried to restart the engine. I unplugged power to the coil pack and cranked. I cranked for a series of intervals which eventually led to the audible slowing of cranking speed, but did not result in an oil pressure indication. I put the battery on the charger for a few hours, came back and tried again. I crank continuously and after what seemed like an eternity, it did build oil pressure. I started it up and the oil pressure was fine. It was actually a bit higher than it had been before the oil change, indicating to me that the filter had been a bit clogged with break in debris and assembly lube. That's why I paid so much for the dern filter! Keep the crap out, yet still flow enough to allow me to run the engine hard without lifting the bypass valve.

Cliff Notes: in the bitter cold after sitting with an empty sump for 3 or more weeks, it can be hard to prime a Northstar.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-21-2010).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #634, 02-02-2011 09:42 AM
      Not much else going on. I've been working toward getting the car ready for VA inspection, which includes replacing fenders, fender liners and nose so that I can use the correct smooth trim marker light lenses to have all my marker lights work.

I'll also need to build a catalyzed exhaust for it. The current exhaust is dual 2" straight pipes. I'm going to upgrade to 2.5" and install catalysts. I'm in the process of getting the later model dual wall manifolds modified for the task.

After that there are a bunch of little things it needs... quarter windows, dew wipes, steering wheel re-skin, telescoping column conversion and some interesting suspension work.



USFiero MSG #635, 02-03-2011 11:08 PM
      I just wanted to stop in and say how much I have enjoyed this thread.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #636, 04-16-2011 10:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by USFiero:

I just wanted to stop in and say how much I have enjoyed this thread.


Thanks!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #637, 04-16-2011 10:53 PM
      Now have a speedometer... sort of.

Ever since I got it running in November of last year, it hasn't had a speedometer. That is because the transmission has the magnetic reluctor on the diff and the corresponding VSS installed. My harness still had the gear driven VSS electrical connector on it and I didn't have the harness connector for the mag/rel VSS.

I noticed today that the Getrag 284 I have on the shelf had the mag/rel VSS with the correct electrical connector just stuck in it, no wires or pins. Not sure how that happened when I pulled that trans, but there it was.

I installed it into The Mule and drove across the street to get gas. I hit 80 mph in less than a block in 1st gear. This new engine never ceases to impress The gas station across the street is also half a mile away, by the odometer.

Obviously the reluctor wheel has WAY more teeth than the pulses per rev that the gear driven VSS makes. Back in the days of mechanical speedometers, GM geared their speedometer cable drives for 1000 RPM at 60 mph. Since it takes 1 minute to go a mile at 60 mph, this is 1000 revolutions per mile. The gear driver VSS's generated 2 pulses per revolution, so when GM switched from cable driven speedometers to electronic speedometers with gear driven VSS's, the electrical standard became 2000 pulses per mile. At some point this was doubled to 4000 pulses per mile. I'm not sure why.

The FIero electrical system routes the analog VSS signal to the speedometer buffer in the speedometer. This buffer drives the speedometer, as well as cutting the frequency in half and outputting a 5V square wave to the ECM for its road speed knowledge.

The Cadillac (and other modern PCM's until the 58x reluctor came out) route the analog VSS straight to the ECM, which then creates multiple 5V 4000 ppm signals for the speedometer, traction control, overspeed warning module, road sensing suspension, etc.

I reworked my harness to do exactly that and went for a test drive with my amputated Caddy instrument panel plugged in to monitor the PCM data stream. I ran it up to an indicated 2500 RPM in 5th, which should be 55 mph, taking into account the 25% error that's crept into the tach. The Caddy IPC indicated 55, so it's getting the correct vehicle speed. The speedometer did not register. I assume that the 5V output of the ECM isn't enough to trigger the input that's designed for the gear driven VSS.

Any idea how to overcome the voltage mis-match?

I wonder if DFCO and PCM cruise control will work now... maybe the BLM's will even be unlocked? This is the first time this ECM has *EVER* had valid VSS data.

I probably could wire the VSS to *BOTH* the ECM and the speedometer buffer, and build the "standard" Quad 4 speedometer circuit on the Speedo buffer leg of that circuit.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #638, 05-16-2011 11:26 AM
      The car's been having an idle issue for quite a while. It had an idle surge when I was driving it in P'cola so many years ago. It still develops that surge when warm, BUT it also has "ignition drops" in which the tach flickers and the engine nearly stalls. Once warm, it actually does stall about 50% of the time it experiences a drop.

I was getting ready to change out the coil pack as a trial, when last weekend I noticed that the volt meter flickers when the tach does. Low damping analog gauges are good like that. In looking through the manual, the ignition supply circuit and volt meter have limited interaction... I might be losing a fusible link, but I'm OK with that, since it's an opportunity to replace that stupid link with a real fuse.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #639, 05-21-2011 10:10 PM
      Hehehehehehehe....

ALLTRBO MSG #640, 05-22-2011 07:26 AM
      You're an ass.

See you on Friday.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #641, 05-23-2011 10:13 PM
     

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #642, 06-03-2011 07:59 AM
      Hmm... not too many people worried about that, I guess.

Was rained out at the strip last weekend. Going to try to hit it again this weekend. Forecast looks like it'll be fantastic weather for power and traction... Now I just have to perfect my launch technique with the SPEC clutch.


cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #643, 06-03-2011 12:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Hmm... not too many people worried about that, I guess.

Was rained out at the strip last weekend. Going to try to hit it again this weekend. Forecast looks like it'll be fantastic weather for power and traction... Now I just have to perfect my launch technique with the SPEC clutch.

Just curious, are those numbers not ok? My engine should be close to that before drive train losses so I was thinking you were in the ballpark anyway.

Charlie




Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #644, 06-03-2011 01:29 PM
      My dyno numbers? I think they're ok. The chart above was recorded at the wheels.

As I mentioned in the LS1 PCM thread, the built short block exceeded my wildest expectations. +45 HP and +20 ftlbs peak with +45 ftlbs at 5800 RPM. It's a monster.

Peak power went from 5200 RPM on the stock shortblock to 5800 RPM on the new shortblock... *just* from changing the shortblock. Everything else is the same.

I hit the speed limiter in 4th or it would have gone to 6400. If I'm on the dyno again with this ECM, I'll unplug the VSS so I can go all the way to the rev limiter.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-03-2011).]

USFiero MSG #645, 06-09-2011 07:59 AM
      at the wheels? I'd say this is pretty amazing. I especially admire the very smooth torque curve, which would be important in a mid-engined car. I have really enjoyed this thread, and abandoned any hope of ever being able to build a performance motor myself - and I have no clue how I'd ever find a shop to build a Northstar motor for my own use.

I may have missed this in a page or comment I skipped over too quickly, but this seems perfectly matched to the six-speed manual's abilities to handle power.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #646, 06-09-2011 08:37 AM
      Didn't get to the strip last weekend either. Had a fuel pump issue. Haven't had the time to diagnose it yet.

On the plus side, I'm 99% sure DFCO works. I may have to wire up the ECM cruise and see if it works.


IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #647, 06-19-2011 01:57 AM
      Will, what do you attribute the additonal HP to regarding the before block and after rebuilt block? You have an additional 40HP don't you?

My lifter is starting to make a louder noise on Bank number 2. I'm going to have to stop driving it and put some new ones in to get that single lifter quiet. Drives me whacko.

By the way, my speck clutch is holding up quite well. But then, I'm 40 HP below you.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #648, 06-19-2011 09:18 AM
      I tried to find my previous dyno graph here on the forum. I know I've posted it, but I wasn't finding it via the search.

There are two things going on.

First is that up to peak torque RPM (4500) and a little beyond, the new block is up 20 ftlbs on the old block. I think this is due to the combination of increased compression, ceramic piston crown coating and better ring seal. The ported bay-to-bay breathing windows may have a small effect, but I would not expect that mod to operate significantly at low RPM. There may be a tiny effect from the lightened rotating assembly, but the acceleration rate on the dyno is fairly low and I would not expect to see much from that.

Second is that beyond peak torque RPM, the new block stays relatively flat, while the old block fell off dramatically. The old block's peak power RPM was 5200, while the new block's is 5800. The new block is up by 45 ftlbs at 5800 RPM. If I had been able to rev it to the 6400 RPM rev limiter, the difference would have been even more dramatic. Obviously the factors of the first effect still apply, but in addition--and I think this is the primary reason for the difference above peak torque RPM--the new block should have vastly reduced ring flutter. This is also the RPM range in which the ported bay-to-bay breathing windows would show gains due to reduced pumping losses for the air in the crankcase.

I'm learning more about the meaning of the phrase "turn up and make power" applied to a built engine... the gains from improved efficiency at high RPM really compound.

What really blows me away is that I gained 45 HP with ZERO "normal" mods... The new engine has the EXACT SAME intake pipe, throttle, intake manifold, heads, cams, exhaust manifolds, exhaust pipes and tune as the old engine, yet beats it significantly at every single RPM point and blows it out of the water on the top end.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-19-2011).]

1fatcat MSG #649, 06-20-2011 11:28 PM
      This is nice to know. Most people do something to the engine durring a rebuild, like cams or something. My build is quite similar to yours, different engine but pretty much the same little touches. Makes me happy to see you gained that much with no major mechanical changes.

1fatcat MSG #650, 06-20-2011 11:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by AJxtcman:
The Head bolts pull the treads out of the block-- time serts only work some times in these blocks --- the threads need to be cleaned and inspected completely-- inspect for pitting after cleaning out the thread locker--- if any pitting is found in the thread area it usually means that the block will not hold a time sert--- when drilling out the block if the material is grey and or powdery the factory time sert will not hold-- Either the thread locker has broke down the blocks or the aluminum quality was not that good---- old thread locker will bind up the threads and break then out--- I would say 50% of the blocks can not use TIMESERT time serts. GM has short blocks available for this problem or use NS300L inserts


I know this is an old quote, but I've done head gaskets in 6 of these engines to date. Used timeserts in every headbolt hole of every engine (120 timeserts) never had an issue with a single one.


IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #651, 06-21-2011 01:15 AM
      Well, hats off to your build, Will! That's great results.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #652, 06-21-2011 06:26 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 1fatcat:

I know this is an old quote, but I've done head gaskets in 6 of these engines to date. Used timeserts in every headbolt hole of every engine (120 timeserts) never had an issue with a single one.


My engine's built in a '93 block (has block drains) and I had zero problems with timeserts.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #653, 10-08-2011 10:40 PM
      In addition to getting started on the 2.5" stainless X-pipe exhaust that I realized I could fit, I swapped out a couple of coil packs.

The "ignition drops" I've mentioned before were getting pretty bad. The car was difficult to drive in higher gears below 2000 RPM under load and pretty much wouldn't pull cleanly from 1000 RPM in 4th or 5th.

I swapped out one of the two coil packs I had out in the shed. It was worse. In addition to ignition drops being at least as bad as the original coil pack, it also had a bad coil and dead miss. Bleh.

The second swapped pack was much better than either original or the first swapped pack in terms of ignition drops and did NOT have a miss. I left it installed. It seems to have ignition drops based more on time than anything. When I was out for the test drive, sometimes it would pull cleanly from 1000 RPM in 5th uphill and not have any problems until it had a cluster of 3 or 4 drops at 1800, then keep pulling. Sometimes it would have 2 or 3 drops at 1200, then keep going. Sometimes it would be clean all the way from 1000 to more than 2000.
The original coil pack wouldn't allow the engine to idle for more than a few seconds before an ignition drop stalled it. The current coil pack allowed the engine to idle for more than a minute when I got back from my test drive. During that period, it experienced a couple of ignition drops, but none of them stalled the engine.

I've never seen the ignition drops happen above 2000 RPM. An ignition drop, if you remember from earlier in this thread, is a momentary loss of ignition. I can be seen by a flicking of the tach, heard in the exhaust note and felt via a split-second power interruption. Since the power delivery is actually interrupted and the tach flickers, the problem must be either in the trigger signal path or power. The trigger signal starts at the crank sensors then goes to the coil pack (ICM) to be translated into something the ECM can understand as well as driving the ICM's tach output, which goes to the tach. Somewhere in that path is the problem.

I guess it *could* be something esoteric with the ECM, causing it to drop the coil trigger signal while keeping the bypass line active. Not sure how the ICM would react to that. I suspect that's a long shot because the tach is showing signs and it is driven by the ICM using crank sensor signals, not by the ECM.

Ideas?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #654, 10-30-2011 11:30 AM
      I scoped the crank sensor and ICM signals. The crank sensors are constant through the drops, but the ICM 4x and 24x appear to drop out during the ignition drops.

I was told on RFT that this is a known failure mode of the ICM's.

I'll do some more scope work today to try to confirm.


joshua riedl MSG #655, 10-30-2011 05:40 PM
      Are you sure this can't be a tuning issue? I had a similar problem after a cam swap and tuned it out in the AE vs AE pulse table. It seems plausible to me that if the car is going lean and the engine struggles, rpm's drop along with voltage until it recovers with an increase in blm's. I can't see your car so you obviously know more than me but reading your posts really seems like what I had going on.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #656, 10-30-2011 09:23 PM
      Nothing's changed that would affect the idle tune.
It's ALWAYS had an idle surge.

This is not an idle surge.

Like I said... preliminarily confirmed with the o'scope.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-31-2011).]

IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #657, 11-12-2011 11:49 PM
      How's it going on figuring out the ignition drops?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #658, 11-14-2011 08:44 PM
      Slowly... didn't get to do any more scoping this past weekend. Working on getting the new exhaust welded up.

cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #659, 11-15-2011 01:49 AM
      My engine occasionally stops firing for 1 to 2 seconds and then runs normally again. Since I mostly idle the engine that is when I notice it the most. It happens rarely but when it does it lasts just long enough for me to think it will stall but it has not done that yet. Is this similar to what you are experiencing Will? My engine has new ignition components but it is using the 950 for fuel and spark management.

Charlie



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #660, 12-12-2011 03:33 PM
      Stops firing for 1-2 seconds and doesn't stall?
Your flywheel is too heavy

I've had the car up on ramps while I work on a Gucci new full exhaust for it... haven't done any additional work on the ignition drop problem.

Will probably also build my oil cooler setup before putting the car back on the ground.

These two products in parallel:
http://marineengineparts.co...html/product106.html



http://marineengineparts.co...html/product110.html



Should handle engine oil flow. The second also has a secondary cooler which can be used for the Getrag (or F40) transmission fluid.

The line drawings are a little deceptive, as the oil section of the dual cooler is essentially the same as the entire single cooler.

I have a horizontal tubing run across the forward cradle crossmember from the right coolant pipe to the thermostat connection into which the dual cooler can be substituted, as well as the vertical run from the left coolant pipe to the upper coolant connection on the waterpump into which the shorter cooler can be added.

I need two of these because the largest connection I can get is 1/2" NPT. 1/2" NPT hose barb fittings tend to have about 5/8" ID. Alan Johnson has said that no restriction in the external oil system should be smaller than the ports on the side of the block... which are 3/4" ID ( ! ). Two 0.625 ID orifi have greater area than one 0.750 orifice, so the pair of coolers will work just fine.

Also, the ben radii available for 3/4" hoses and fittings is significantly larger than that available for 5/8" hoses and fittings, making the whole setup easier to package under the car.

And I'll have to figure out where to put my Accusump...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-12-2011).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #661, 07-03-2012 05:37 PM
      I am Jack's underutilized sense of accomplishment.





[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-17-2012).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #662, 07-17-2012 08:19 AM
      Figured out my link problems above.

Here's the exhaust mocked up for final welding:



Also put together a coolant bleed fitting to address the Achilles' heel of the cooling system.



Bloozberry MSG #663, 07-17-2012 09:36 AM
      Oooooo... me likes the exhaust system...

Couple of questions though:

1. On the side where you fabricated the header from tubing (rear bank), would it have been possible to use a second OEM front bank manifold? Did you even consider it, and if you did, did you drop the idea because the collector angle was wrong or did you simply not have an extra front OEM front manifold at your disposal?

2. From the pictures, it's hard to tell if your front and rear bank pipes are siamesed (crossed-over) at the point they meet, or whether they are just really close to each other.

3. Are you planning to use a muffler or are you going to let the cats do double duty for noise attenuation as well? (They do muffle noise by about 75%)



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #664, 07-17-2012 10:45 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

Oooooo... me likes the exhaust system...

Couple of questions though:

1. On the side where you fabricated the header from tubing (rear bank), would it have been possible to use a second OEM front bank manifold? Did you even consider it, and if you did, did you drop the idea because the collector angle was wrong or did you simply not have an extra front OEM front manifold at your disposal?

2. From the pictures, it's hard to tell if your front and rear bank pipes are siamesed (crossed-over) at the point they meet, or whether they are just really close to each other.

3. Are you planning to use a muffler or are you going to let the cats do double duty for noise attenuation as well? (They do muffle noise by about 75%)


It's a nice system... Over $1000 in parts. Custom waterjet cut 3/8" flange for the fabricated manifold. 304 Stainless 2.5" tubing. All the bends except the manifold log are built from donuts. The system uses FOUR donuts and less than 36" of straight tubing. It fits WITHOUT cutting the trunk. Also note that the leg going from the X to the lower catalyst has one oval section bend in it... I had to do that for clearance to the stock pass-under in the rear cradle rail.

The OE front manifold was not workable in the rear. I tried cutting up an extra dual wall manifold in multiple ways and couldn't get anything satisfactory.

There's an X-pipe in the system. It's actually equally distant from each "collector" in pipe length.

I'm planning to have a company (probably SpinTech) build a pair of custom mufflers to use the volume between the rear impact beam and wheel well liner outboard of the frame rail. Until those get built, I'll be running tails off the cats.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-17-2012).]

1988holleyformula MSG #665, 07-17-2012 01:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

I am Jack's underutilized sense of accomplishment.


Most of this thread is WAY over my head in terms of technicality, but that exhaust setup looks great.

Can't wait to see it installed in the engine bay!


fieroguru MSG #666, 07-18-2012 11:00 PM
      Looks good!


Am I overlooking a v-band connection? From what I am seeing, the pipes that lead into the cats, the DS one goes over the cradle and the PS on under with both sides welded at the X and the cats stacked in the rear. How does this setup slide around the rear cradle crossmember?


Jefrysuko MSG #667, 07-18-2012 11:28 PM
      Looks like the cats are a slip fit

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #668, 07-19-2012 07:30 AM
      Yes, the cat connections are slip-fit and will get conventional clamps.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #669, 07-21-2012 10:00 PM
      Fired it up for the first time in months today.

I replaced the ignition module in the coil pack with a NOS Delco unit I bought on ebay. There was no heat sink compound between the module and the baseplate... Not sure why. I used electrically conductive heat sink compound from Galco on it when I reassembled. The torque spec for the 4mm bolts that secure the coils and module to the base plate is 30 inlbs.

Since it had sat for months, I poured a cap full of ATF into each cylinder. That sat for a couple of hours as I got everything back together. I left the coil pack power connector unplugged and cranked it until the starter was hot several times and did not build any oil pressure. I plugged the coil pack power in, fired the engine and had oil pressure within 1 second. Weird.

I left the cats off so that it could burn off the ATF and blow out any junk that had accumulated in the ports, manifolds and pipes. It was loud, but didn't quite sound the same... I guess I'll see what the X-pipe does when I actually drive it.

It still had the ignition drops. The next thing I'll hit up will be the crank sensors.

The clutch hyds need to be either bled or replaced... I guess I'll bleed them tomorrow and then determine if they need to be replaced. The master cylinder is a fairly new steel unit.

Friday afternoon the welder finished up the V-band flanges and making welding the tabe to the X-pipe which will pick up a tab on the manifold end-cap to help support the X-pipe. There will be one on the other run also, but I need to figure out exactly what it will look like. Now that I have the tab and the V-band to locate the X-pipe relative to the rear manifold, I can remove both in order to do more work on them. This is relatively easy. Removing the front manifold is a giant pain in the ass. The extremely tight packaging of *EVERYTHING* around the front manifold is one of the reasons I kept the stock manifold and didn't try to fab one for the front... just yet.


IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #670, 07-22-2012 02:15 AM
      Nice, nice, nice!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #671, 07-22-2012 12:55 PM
      Even though I didn't get any air out, bleeding (more accurately flushing) the clutch worked like a charm.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #672, 07-23-2012 10:50 AM
      Have the cats and rough temporary tailpipes installed. It's a LOT quieter.

Just need to reinstall the rear fascia and marker lights to get it inspected. I'm going to plant rivnuts in the fascia support in lieu of the crappy plastic push fasteners that GM used.


Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #673, 07-25-2012 01:39 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Have the cats and rough temporary tailpipes installed. It's a LOT quieter.

Just need to reinstall the rear fascia and marker lights to get it inspected. I'm going to plant rivnuts in the fascia support in lieu of the crappy plastic push fasteners that GM used.


How does it sound with that x? BTW the exhaust is a work of art.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #674, 07-25-2012 09:08 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 1988holleyformula:

Most of this thread is WAY over my head in terms of technicality, but that exhaust setup looks great.

Can't wait to see it installed in the engine bay!


Thanks!
Err... You can't really *see* it in the engine bay... The Northstar is like that. I do have some shots from under the car, but nothing with the system fully assembled. I was working late Sunday at my parents' place and had to get back to NoVA for work Monday morning.
I'm a bit hesitant to post pics of the tailpipes. As I said, they are pretty rough.

 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:

Nice, nice, nice!


Thanks!

 
quote
Originally posted by Erik:

How does it sound with that x? BTW the exhaust is a work of art.


Thanks!
It sounds good, but drones below 2000 RPM. I'm reserving final judgement until I get the custom mufflers built/installed, as that will change the resonant lengths of the tailpipes.
I haven't hammered on it much yet to get a good assessment of sound quality... I was still mostly in the shakedown phase for the limited distance I drove it Sunday.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #675, 07-25-2012 09:22 AM
      Pics:

Coil pack build:


Manifold end cap and support tabs, EGR fitting:


Partial under-car shot


Partial under-car shot


Clearance to oil pan


Clearance to oil pan

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-25-2012).]

Bloozberry MSG #676, 07-25-2012 09:38 AM
      Excellent set of photos... and finally a good view of the crossover area Is the bottom of your oil pan higher, lower, or level with the cradle bottom? WIth the larger diameter piping, is the portion that passes under the oil pan lower than the bottom of the oil pan?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #677, 07-25-2012 10:29 AM
      Oil pan is co-elevation with the bottom of the cradle. The pipe does hang below the bottom of the pan... that's why it offsets back up to mate to the X-pipe.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-25-2012).]

FieroWannaBe (patond@alumni.msoe.edu) MSG #678, 07-25-2012 10:49 AM
      That looks superbly executed. Have you made much consideration to the heat of the stainless crossover to the aluminum oil pan. I'd be slightly concered about cooking the oil once the car is parked and shutdown, since the pipe will retain heat for some time, and the pan will easily transfer heat to your oil. personally, I would use a piece of adhesive heat shield on the pan near the pipe.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #679, 07-25-2012 11:13 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:

That looks superbly executed. Have you made much consideration to the heat of the stainless crossover to the aluminum oil pan. I'd be slightly concered about cooking the oil once the car is parked and shutdown, since the pipe will retain heat for some time, and the pan will easily transfer heat to your oil. personally, I would use a piece of adhesive heat shield on the pan near the pipe.


Thanks!

Actually, it's the other way around. The pipe will cool off far faster than the pan and oil. The pipe is comparatively thin and light relative to the pan and oil. Despite being at a high temperature during operation, it cools quickly. You can try this yourself on your own car... After a drive, your pipe will be cool to the touch well before your oil pan and the oil within.

The car will get an oil/water heat exchanger.

While I also intend to produce heat shields for use in specific locations, I'm far more concerned about the CV joint boot and grease taking on excess heat during operation. I'll be switching to an intermediate shaft axle to move the CV joint out of the high heat area.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-25-2012).]

ALLTRBO MSG #680, 07-25-2012 11:30 AM
      Will, what the hell are you doing?! You can't fit all those pipes in there! Especially without hacking up the trunk! Double especially without it looking like crap!
You better obey the laws of physics and pull all of that artwork out of there right now before someone thinks that it's actually possible!



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #681, 07-25-2012 01:17 PM
      I dug up my old dyno run file and used the DynoJet viewer to overlay the old and the new.



cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #682, 07-25-2012 01:24 PM
      Looks awesome Will! I too was a little concerned about the oval pipe to oil pan clearance so I had that part of my exhaust jet-hot coated just to be sure. The X-connection is very cool...

Charlie


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #683, 07-25-2012 01:31 PM
      Thanks!

In retrospect, I could have used an oval pipe to pass under the pan, but there's *VERY* limited space for the round/oval transitions... I was just barely able to pull it off for the cradle pass-under.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-25-2012).]

FieroWannaBe (patond@alumni.msoe.edu) MSG #684, 07-25-2012 01:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Thanks!

Actually, it's the other way around. The pipe will cool off far faster than the pan and oil. The pipe is comparatively thin and light relative to the pan and oil. Despite being at a high temperature during operation, it cools quickly. You can try this yourself on your own car... After a drive, your pipe will be cool to the touch well before your oil pan and the oil within.

The car will get an oil/water heat exchanger.

While I also intend to produce heat shields for use in specific locations, I'm far more concerned about the CV joint boot and grease taking on excess heat during operation. I'll be switching to an intermediate shaft axle to move the CV joint out of the high heat area.



Well, to counter, the Chinese 16Ga. long tubes on my GTO would stay hot for quite some time after shutdown, heatsoaking the cramped compartment before I wrapped them.

I didnt see how close toe the CV boot you were until just now, I agree a shield is needed there. Hopefully they don't swell at high speed!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #685, 07-25-2012 01:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Will, what the hell are you doing?! You can't fit all those pipes in there! Especially without hacking up the trunk! Double especially without it looking like crap!
You better obey the laws of physics and pull all of that artwork out of there right now before someone thinks that it's actually possible!





Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #686, 07-25-2012 03:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:


Well, to counter, the Chinese 16Ga. long tubes on my GTO would stay hot for quite some time after shutdown, heatsoaking the cramped compartment before I wrapped them.

I didnt see how close toe the CV boot you were until just now, I agree a shield is needed there. Hopefully they don't swell at high speed!


Think about it... The exhaust tubing may operate at 1000 degrees, but weighs maybe as much as 20 lbs.

The engine operates at 200 degrees, but weighs 400 lbs or more.

The amount of heat (in terms of Joules) that is held by the exhaust is tiny compared to the heat held in the engine.


FieroWannaBe (patond@alumni.msoe.edu) MSG #687, 07-25-2012 07:06 PM
      Fair enough. So long as your comfortable with it, thats all that truely matters.

I wouldnt think the heat of the exhaust would destroy anything in the vicinity, your are right on a specific heat basis the engine wins. But I was only considering the localized heat that the exhaust tubing might have on the oil pan, and the film of oil in the near vicinity of the pipe for the small 2 minutes or so it would take to transfer the heat away from the pipe if you were to park it somehow with the pipe at say, 600F just after flogging it. Not enough to ruin anything except maybe soften a seal or boil out some aromatics in the oil. The thoughts in my head were: There is limited air flow when parked, so maybe 8% of the heat from that area is being purely radiated into the oil pan the rest to free convection and conduction to the rest of the system (which isnt that large really so its all around 600F at the time), the oilpan is aluminum, and relative to the steel and oil, it could perhaps be seen only as a transport medium, so imediatly at the pan, it may reach 300 degrees for a small amount of time until the exhaust in free-er air pulls more heat away, so oil right at the base of the corner of the pan by the exhaust may get overheated slightly. Will it hurt the engine probably not, never thought it would. Could the oil life be shortened ever so much, maybe? Im only speculating, your engineering this system, not me. Back to your build. Again, Im impressed and jealous.

[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 07-25-2012).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #688, 07-27-2012 08:26 PM
      I have been considering a heat shield for the pan, as well as the CV joint. I'll likely go to an intermediate shaft axle instead of building a heat shield for the CV joint... avoid the problem entirely instead of mitigating it. A heat shield for the pan will be simple enough, but will need to be very precisely made.

I think the circulation will avoid problems with the oil while the engine's running and I don't think the heat post-shutdown will be a big deal, but obviously less heat into the oil means less heat I have to dump into the cooling system which means less heat I have to get rid of through the stock V6 manual trans radiator, which is a good thing.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #689, 08-25-2012 10:44 AM
      Heat shield for the pan is in progress, as is a bracket to support the housing for an intermediate shaft axle.

I've been driving the car daily. It was doing fine, but gradually became harder to get the initial turn over when starting. The charge voltage from the alternator had gradually gone down. The car runs fine, but the alt doesn't quite charge the battery to a high enough voltage to be able to start it.

I've parked it for the last week while dealing with a family medical problem.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-25-2012).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #690, 09-03-2012 02:38 PM
      I was wondering how to deal with this. Unfortunately the welder is on vacation, so I couldn't consult him about reworking the location of the v-band clamp. I know it would be a huge PITA no matter what... I would have just asked his advice on how to do it most easily.

However, as I was cleaning a giant load of scrap (old Northstar parts, old TDC parts, old Muncie parts) out of the shed out back, I noticed that I had two Type II IMS's on the shelf. Interesting. I knew that there were two different types of IMS's, but I'd forgotten I had two of the Type II's. I had @$$umed that the Type I and II shafts would be the same length and use the same CV axle assembly. On a whim I grabbed one of the Type II's and compared it to the shaft from the Type I. The Type II is noticeably longer. I pulled the Type I housing out and installed the Type II with the target CV joint tulip and the tulip cleared the V-band clamp. :-D

Installing the Type I would have required removing the axle seal. Even though axle seals are cheap and I bought a spare, I hadn't popped the seal out because I considered that "committing" to a course of action. Since I didn't have a good idea of how I'd make the Type I IMS work, I had not yet done that. The Type II shaft uses the same axle seal as the stock axle, so to install the Type II shaft, I do not have to remove the axle seal. I feel modestly vindicated.

However, I *STILL* have to remove the axle seal. The Type II shaft requires a different bracket than the Type I. Because the bracket for the Type II provides *ALL* of the support for the "remote" bearing, the Type II bracket must not only be much stronger than the Type I bracket, it must be able to locate the bearing fairly precisely in order to avoid wear on the differential side gear and IMS splines due to misalignment. I will have to fully develop my Type I IMS bracket in order to properly establish the relationship between the centerline of the IMS and the bosses on the Northstar block. THEN, knowing that relationship, I will have to *RE*design the bracket to work with the Type II IMS.

PITA, but I now know the path forward.

Rev 0 of the Type I IMS bracket:

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-13-2012).]

ericjon262 MSG #691, 09-13-2012 12:20 AM
      any updates?



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #692, 09-13-2012 07:07 AM
      Been working on the intermediate shaft axle conversion.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #693, 09-13-2012 08:25 AM
      I guess I should have posted some pictures of my initial measurements:

Used some 0.750" spacers to mount the IMS housing so I didn't have to pull the axle seal to test fit.



First iteration mounting plate, taking advantage of bosses on the side of the Northstar block



Initial mounting plate design will result in negative clearance to the side of the CV joint tulip

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-13-2012).]

ALLTRBO MSG #694, 09-13-2012 12:04 PM
      If anyone cares, Will drove my stock '12 Camaro SS manual (LS3) the other day (including 0-120+mph twice). He said that his N* Fiero does feel a bit stronger throughout, which is what I expected considering the weight/power ratios. Unfortunately his car was down for the above mentioned so I didn't get to drive it, but soon, hopefully! We'd like to take them both to the strip soon. I'm not expecting to break any records with the SS, but it should run easy 12's (unfortunately my 11-second AWD Talon ruined me, anything that can't launch as hard and runs slower than 11's while still being able to handle with the better-of-them is, honestly, a bit of a disappointment).

The N* Fiero is pretty darn quick if it's faster than an LS3 SS, and he's not even close to being done with the mods.


ericjon262 MSG #695, 09-13-2012 12:53 PM
      are the IMS's specific to the transmission they are bolted to? ie: could I use an IMS like yours on an F23 or a Muncie?



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #696, 09-13-2012 01:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

are the IMS's specific to the transmission they are bolted to? ie: could I use an IMS like yours on an F23 or a Muncie?



The Type I IMS with the cast aluminum housing is specific to the 282. The Type II IMS (not pictured) can be used with any transmission that uses the Fiero right side axle.

However, the Type II needs a much more robust support bracket bolted to the side of the engine than the Type I.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-13-2012).]

ericjon262 MSG #697, 09-13-2012 08:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


The Type I IMS with the cast aluminum housing is specific to the 282. The Type II IMS (not pictured) can be used with any transmission that uses the Fiero right side axle.

However, the Type II needs a much more robust support bracket bolted to the side of the engine than the Type I.



Thanks for the info, any other reasons you are installing one other than to get the C/V tulip out of the heat?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #698, 09-14-2012 07:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

Thanks for the info, any other reasons you are installing one other than to get the C/V tulip out of the heat?


1. The heat
2. There's a boss on the side of the block that's used to secure the original under/over pipe from the front bank exhaust. This boss rubs the CV joint boot and eventually rubs through and causes it to fail and sling grease everywhere. I didn't feel like cutting this boss off.


cptsnoopy (cptsnoopy@cox.net) MSG #699, 09-15-2012 02:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


1. The heat
2. There's a boss on the side of the block that's used to secure the original under/over pipe from the front bank exhaust. This boss rubs the CV joint boot and eventually rubs through and causes it to fail and sling grease everywhere. I didn't feel like cutting this boss off.

Will, did you have that happen? I have just under 1/4" clearance there and I am concerned about the tripot boot expanding at speed or flexing enough to rub on that boss with my Isuzu setup. Was your clearance similar, just enough to think it might work?

Charlie



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #700, 09-15-2012 02:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by cptsnoopy:

Will, did you have that happen? I have just under 1/4" clearance there and I am concerned about the tripot boot expanding at speed or flexing enough to rub on that boss with my Isuzu setup. Was your clearance similar, just enough to think it might work?

Charlie


The 282 and Isuzu may put their axles in slightly different places, as mine has much less than 1/4" of clearance, although it doesn't appear to touch when stationary.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-15-2012).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #701, 09-17-2012 10:20 AM
      The Fiero manual trans right side axle, when fitted with the large pattern (27 spline) outer CV joint has an collapsed length of 39 1/4".

The following combination:
-Type II IMS
-*Left* inner CV tulip (female spline) from Pontiac 6000 (or other A-body) with 4 speed automatic
-*Right* side tripod, axle shaft, 27 spline outer CV from Pontiac 6000 (or other A-body) with 4 speed automatic and HD brakes

has a collapsed length of 39 3/8"

Score. Axle problem solved.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-17-2012).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #702, 09-26-2012 02:07 PM
      Ordered this: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EAR-1877ERL/

I'll use it with the parts washer to push solvent through my PurePower filter backwards in order to clean it more quickly and efficiently than I was able to the first time.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #703, 09-30-2012 10:56 PM
      Development of Type II IMS bracket:








I removed my CS144 alternator and will be replacing it with a CS130D or AD130, both of which have much smaller cases. This will make R&R *MUCH* easier as well as allowing greater air circulation around the unit.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-30-2012).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #704, 10-08-2012 12:38 PM
      LOOOONG weekend, but the car's back on the road with a functional Type II IMS, CS130 alternator and a wide band bung added to the X-pipe.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #705, 10-08-2012 03:57 PM
      Continuing development of the Type II IMS axle bracket, as well as a pic of the final assembly of bracket, alxe, seal retainer, etc. Installed pic will have to wait for another day.







Size difference between the CS144 and CS130 alternators. To fix the accidental mounting center mismatch between new and old, I took a page from my own book, borrowing from the installation of a 282 to the Northstar and how to deal with the mismatched bellhousing bolt.





The car is back on the road as of last night. I was not able to make any progress on the heater lines, but they seem to be holding water for now. I dug through my stash of coolant and heater pipes and was able to find what I think is the engine bay section of the '86 heater return pipe, but I was not able to find the right side '86 coolant pipe or the full set of '86 heater pipes.

I also did some work on the pan to X-pipe heat shield, but no pics yet.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #706, 10-26-2012 04:35 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:

Have you made much consideration to the heat of the stainless crossover to the aluminum oil pan. I'd be slightly concered about cooking the oil once the car is parked and shutdown, since the pipe will retain heat for some time, and the pan will easily transfer heat to your oil. personally, I would use a piece of adhesive heat shield on the pan near the pipe.


I am working on a heat shield... I have it such that it will bolt to the pan, but I'd like to extend the other end in order to pick up one of the dust shield bolts on the Getrag bellhousing.

Shutdown isn't a problem, as we discussed above.
What I see happening is that the temps (oil temp inferred from idle oil pressure) stay fine for highway drives, but it doesn't take long for the oil to heat soak and idle oil pressure to drop once the car is in stop and go traffic. Coolant temp also comes up a bit, but stays controlled.


madcurl (madcurl@fiero-performance.com) MSG #707, 10-27-2012 01:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

http://www.gopurepower.com/

Spin-on filter for Northstar application. It's about $200.



Did you notice any improvments using this oil filter in your application?



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #708, 10-28-2012 11:18 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by madcurl:

Did you notice any improvments using this oil filter in your application?



I bought it to reduce the risk of blowing the engine up during a hard break-in.
Hard break-in is the best for the engine because it results in the best wear-in among the rings, grooves and bores. However, due to the high RPM involves, the engine oil pump is at its maximum flow rate. Paper and cotton filters can't keep up without experiencing excessive pressure drop and opening the bypass valve. The open bypass valve *could* allow break-in debris from the ring grooves, rings or bores to be pumped directly into the main bearings and cause problems. The stainless steel mesh filters do not filter as finely as the paper/cotton filters, but DO have the flow capacity to handle the Northstar's 12 gallons per minute of oil flow without lifting the bypass valve.

Soo... My engine didn't blow up during break-in, and I have confidence that it's capable of running for extended periods at high RPM... I like it.

However, it *DOES* need to be cleaned with each oil change. That's a PITA... I'm setting up for a quick/easy way of doing that, but not quite there yet.

I blew up an axle at the drag strip Thursday evening, or else I'd be working on the filter today.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #709, 10-30-2012 10:48 AM
     







The track prep was very good. One of the first guys I talked to before I made my first run said that traction was good.

There were only a couple of other street cars there... Two Hondas running in the 10.2 range. I was the fastest real street car there, although a couple of the obviously dedicated drag cars that showed up on trailers had plates. I think the fastest time I saw on the board was 5.0xx, but I only watched a fraction of the passes that evening.

I was working on both my launch technique and my clean-off spin technique. I overdid the clean off spins and had some minor wheel hop. That may have contributed to the CV spline failure. I had the clean off spin perfected for the 4th pass..., just the right RPM and clutch slip to get 1-2 full revolutions of the tires with no wheel hop.

By the time I made my 4th run, both tires and pavement were nice and sticky. I was getting used to the clutch and felt that I had the RPM and slip figured out to cut at least a 1.8 short time if not a 1.7. Obviously, there were other circumstances of which I was not aware. If I'd done the 1.7, I definitely would have gotten a 7.9.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-30-2012).]

ericjon262 MSG #710, 10-30-2012 06:49 PM
      bummer on the axle, I'm guessing this was 1/8 mile by the time slip?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #711, 10-31-2012 09:43 AM
      Yes, it is an 1/8 mile strip.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-31-2012).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #712, 11-12-2012 10:57 AM
      RT: 0.621
60: 2.177
330: 5.645
1/8: 8.487
MPH: 87.70
1000: 10.906
1/4: 12.945
MPH: 112.04

Obviously, I took it easy on the launch so I didn't break an axle twice as far from home base as I was at Sumerduck.
+6 MPH vs. the first engine's best trap speed... power's definitely there. I think some of that comes from the 1.02 vs. 0.94 fourth gear, as I wouldn't have expected a <2 mph advantage at the 1/8 to turn into a 6 mph advantage in the 1/4.

MIR was bat **** insane Sunday... There was a swap meet as well as one of the last test/tune days of the season. I didn't make it there as early as I would have liked. I only made two runs, but missed 2nd gear in my second run, so it wasn't any good. If I had gotten there right as the gates opened and gotten set up, I could have had 3 runs by mid-afternoon... but missed the first two sessions in which the groups were not as heavily populated as they were later.

Tech initially gave me guff about my cracked 1/4 windows, so I had to rip those off before they'd let me run. I need to remove them anyway in order to install the replacements, so I don't consider it a big deal. I'm not sure if the car looks more or less ghetto now.

There was a blown nitro funny car that made a couple of runs... 6.20 @ 234 was the faster of the two. If you've never seen A blown nitro car run, go see one. It's a rare treat, like seeing an F-14 do an aerobatic display at an air show... And like the F-14, the nitro car makes the ground shake.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #713, 11-21-2012 03:34 PM
      Made some exhaust hangers/braces/handcuffs



fierogt28 MSG #714, 11-21-2012 05:22 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Made some exhaust hangers/braces/handcuffs



Hey Will, are those welded on with a MIG welding machine?

I love the quality finish.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #715, 11-21-2012 06:44 PM
      A welder my dad works with TIG'd them. All stainless.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #716, 12-19-2012 01:14 PM
      Been driving and enjoying the car... getting together materials and info to build the wiring harness adapter which will let me switch over to the Shelby PCM.

I have everything I need but time.

I have an EP LSD built in the later model larger 282 diff. It's been on the shelf for a while. I shipped it back to Jeff for disassembly.

I'll be sending the components off for cryo and WPC (micro shot-peen/micro-polish) treatment along with my 3.94 R&P and a couple of extra IMS's and male CV joint cups and a new crankshaft for the Northstar.
Once the driveline components have been cryo'd and WPC'd, and the crank cryo'd, melonited, journals cut and micropolished, I'll pull the car down to swap out the crank, install the 3.94 FD and diff and a few other things.
One of the other things will be to remove the chassis side dogbone mount stamping from my wrecked blue '87 GT and install it in The Mule. I had pre-emptively cut The Mule's for clearance to the Northstar cam cover, but once the engine was installed, found that it would have cleared with only minor trimming. I will build a rod-end dogbone from the chassis side mount to a bracket I will build from the Northstar PS pump bracket. I'm thinking that the "springiness" of my urethane powertrain mounts is a contributing factor to the wheel hop that killed my CV joint.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-19-2012).]

Dave E Bouy (doctorfiero@gmail.com) MSG #717, 12-19-2012 09:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Been driving and enjoying the car... getting together materials and info to build the wiring harness adapter which will let me switch over to the Shelby PCM.


I haven't read your thread beginning to end but I have skimmed here and there. I assume from what I have quoted here that someone actually has a workable Shelby ECM my question is, c an it be made to run 2k+ motor with coil on plug? I'm at the very early stages of attempting to reassemble a very low mileage N* that had some piston damage due to poor tuning on a Microsquirt and high revving. I would love t eventually get it running its COP setup.

DF


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #718, 12-20-2012 09:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dave E Bouy:

I haven't read your thread beginning to end but I have skimmed here and there. I assume from what I have quoted here that someone actually has a workable Shelby ECM my question is, c an it be made to run 2k+ motor with coil on plug? I'm at the very early stages of attempting to reassemble a very low mileage N* that had some piston damage due to poor tuning on a Microsquirt and high revving. I would love t eventually get it running its COP setup.

DF


I'm the test case. I've been working with Sinister to develop the tune and get the wiring info.

The Shelby computer will not control the Y2K Northstar, as it depends on the DIS brick for the 24x and 4x signals.

There really isn't much you can do for the engine management of the '00-'04 engines... Tuning is actually a serious handicap for those engines.
My advice--especially considering you're just getting started--is to get an '05+ engine. The '05+ *should* be compatible with a WIDE variety of computers, as it used a 58x trigger wheel.

The '93-'99 engines have multiple engine management options are available, but they REQUIRE timeserting the head bolt threads in order to be reliable. That's $500 between the gaskets and the time sert kit... just to put it back to stock.
My understanding is that the '05+ engine are more reliable in that regard, as GM made changes to the depth and pitch of the head bolt threads in those engines. They also have larger exhaust valves than the '00-'04 engines and breathe a little better.


www.car-parts.com shows that Standard Auto Wreckers in Ontario has about 5 '06-'08 engines for $1K each. There's an LKQ yard in London that has one for $900. Diamond Auto Parts in Mississauga has an '05 VIN 9 for $900.

Edit: After looking at a map, I see you're not far from Detroit... you shouldn't have ANY problem finding an '05+ Northstar for cheap.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-20-2012).]

Dave E Bouy (doctorfiero@gmail.com) MSG #719, 12-21-2012 10:03 PM
      I'm not sure what search criteria you're using Will but when I search for *engine 2005-2008 Cadillac Seville* I get a half dozen N* in Michigan all for $1500.00

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #720, 12-21-2012 10:14 PM
      Try DeVille for '05 or DTS for '06+... That was the only Northstar car that stayed FWD through the end of production.

Dave E Bouy (doctorfiero@gmail.com) MSG #721, 12-22-2012 09:41 PM
      Oops. Double post and wow I own page 19

[This message has been edited by Dave E Bouy (edited 12-22-2012).]

Dave E Bouy (doctorfiero@gmail.com) MSG #722, 12-22-2012 09:49 PM
      Well Will. Despite what I know to be very good advice I am going to stick with motor I've got. I figure the rebuild will be at least half the fun and a source of pride. I already have a Timesert kit borrowed but I do need some inserts. Can you tell me I could get some? As far as engine management, I guess I'll go back to the Megasquirt which is not a problem if it's tuned properly. Hopefully in time I can get the COP working. I've heard that Megasquirt is working on something along those lines. Anyway, wish me luck. . . .

DF


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #723, 12-26-2012 12:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dave E Bouy:

Well Will. Despite what I know to be very good advice I am going to stick with motor I've got. I figure the rebuild will be at least half the fun and a source of pride. I already have a Timesert kit borrowed but I do need some inserts. Can you tell me I could get some? As far as engine management, I guess I'll go back to the Megasquirt which is not a problem if it's tuned properly. Hopefully in time I can get the COP working. I've heard that Megasquirt is working on something along those lines. Anyway, wish me luck. . . .

DF


I'm tickled to death with how well my built engine performs. It certainly is gratifying to have gone through all the crap I've gone through to learn about building a Northstar and have the end result turn out as well as it has. I hope it works out well for you.
I ordered my inserts directly from www.timesert.com IIRC, they were about $1 each. When I 'serted my main bolt holes, I did it on a mill and only needed the installation mandrel, not the whole kit. I bought the mandrel by itself and it was around $80. The money's in the tooling for the timeserts.

Levi (CRZYONE) used a Big Stuff 3 to run his Y2K Northstar, so it is possible, but that's an expensive computer. Megasquirt should be adaptable to the job, but the '00-'04 Northstars have a reluctor wheel pattern that is, AFAIK, unique to those engines.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-26-2012).]

ericjon262 MSG #724, 12-27-2012 12:52 AM
      Are the reluctors pressed on to the crank or are they machined on it? joseph upson ran into a similar problem on his 3900 build, and had a new wheel machined to replace the 3900 wheel. It may be an option for you N* guys.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #725, 12-27-2012 07:40 AM
      It may be removable on the 58x engines, but it's integral on the '93-'99 and '00-'04 engines.

ericjon262 MSG #726, 12-27-2012 11:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

It may be removable on the 58x engines, but it's integral on the '93-'99 and '00-'04 engines.


10-4, another thought, it may be possible to have the ring turned down, and then a new ring machined to fit.



Dave E Bouy (doctorfiero@gmail.com) MSG #727, 12-29-2012 07:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


I'm tickled to death with how well my built engine performs. It certainly is gratifying to have gone through all the crap I've gone through to learn about building a Northstar and have the end result turn out as well as it has. I hope it works out well for you.
I ordered my inserts directly from www.timesert.com IIRC, they were about $1 each. When I 'serted my main bolt holes, I did it on a mill and only needed the installation mandrel, not the whole kit. I bought the mandrel by itself and it was around $80. The money's in the tooling for the timeserts.

Levi (CRZYONE) used a Big Stuff 3 to run his Y2K Northstar, so it is possible, but that's an expensive computer. Megasquirt should be adaptable to the job, but the '00-'04 Northstars have a reluctor wheel pattern that is, AFAIK, unique to those engines.



OK thanks for the info Will. This motor did run on the MSquirt but we had to use a trigger wheel bolted on to the harmonic balancer and a Ford ignition system. I think I asked you once before but I can't remember what you said. Can I use pre Y2k cam covers on this motor? At least that way I should be able to make it look nicer than it did with plug wires running into cam covers that are designed to have COP. I guess I should have tried timesert first. I bought some on fleabay and paid $67.00 for 20 inserts. Oops

DF



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #728, 01-01-2013 10:02 PM
      I was able to take a few hours yesterday and today to do the majority of the work on the wiring harness adapter for the Shelby PCM.



Remaining to be done:
-Populate a 3 or more pin Molex which carries a clutch switch wire, and +12V/GND for the MAF sensor from the interior body harness. Theoretically, I could have brought them off the backs of the adapter connectors, but space is at a premium when soldering to those pins, and the existing power/ground wires are 18 ga rather than 22. There just wasn't space to get everything in and allow room for the shrink tube which will be needed to assure isolation.
-Build an additional pigtail for the MAF and connect it to the aforementioned Molex as well as the signal pin on the Shelby connectors.
-Provide for a connection to the IAC, either by building an adapter to go from the ISM to the IAC or by running a dedicated pigtail similar to that which I will have to build for the MAF sensor. The ISM to IAC adapter is complicated by the fact that one of the ISM wires goes directly to ground, so I have to run one wire the entire length ANYWAY... might as well run three more and have one less connector to worry about.
-Obtain and wire in an OBDII DLC.

Once I do those things, the car will be ready for swapping the throttle to an OBDII unit and trying the Shelby PCM.

Also, the left decklid hinge pin broke, so I had to develop a replacement:

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-01-2013).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #729, 01-01-2013 10:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dave E Bouy:

OK thanks for the info Will. This motor did run on the MSquirt but we had to use a trigger wheel bolted on to the harmonic balancer and a Ford ignition system. I think I asked you once before but I can't remember what you said. Can I use pre Y2k cam covers on this motor? At least that way I should be able to make it look nicer than it did with plug wires running into cam covers that are designed to have COP. I guess I should have tried timesert first. I bought some on fleabay and paid $67.00 for 20 inserts. Oops

DF


The inserts might have been $3 each... been a while since I bought them. You can buy them direct easily enough.

The Y2K covers will not fit the earlier heads. The outline and plug well angles are different.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #730, 01-03-2013 12:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

10-4, another thought, it may be possible to have the ring turned down, and then a new ring machined to fit.



It's in the middle of the engine, so the new wheel would have to pass over counterweights in order to be installed... The current wheel is close to the OD of the counterweights... I'd have to do some measuring to figure out if it's possible.

I @$$ume that most engine computers are flexible enough in crankshaft offset angle to allow pretty much any offset.


ericjon262 MSG #731, 01-03-2013 10:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


It's in the middle of the engine, so the new wheel would have to pass over counterweights in order to be installed... The current wheel is close to the OD of the counterweights... I'd have to do some measuring to figure out if it's possible.

I @$$ume that most engine computers are flexible enough in crankshaft offset angle to allow pretty much any offset.


10-4 I haven't played with tuning much, I was just spit-balling ideas out there.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #732, 01-04-2013 10:52 AM
      Yeah, the flexibility of the 58x PCM would be nice... mostly for throttle by wire. My 1992 (!) BMW 535i had throttle by wire and it completely transformed cruise control.

OTOH, I was thrashing a Caddy CTS rental through the hills and canyons of SoCal a couple of years ago and managed to get the TBW so confused it gave up and closed for a couple of seconds before responding again.


ericjon262 MSG #733, 01-04-2013 10:00 PM
      Me personally, I don't like DBW, it feels more disconnected than a cable throttle, but my understanding is that most of that feeling can be eliminated through tuning.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #734, 01-07-2013 10:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

Me personally, I don't like DBW, it feels more disconnected than a cable throttle, but my understanding is that most of that feeling can be eliminated through tuning.



I really don't know how modern OEM's screw up TBW so badly. I drove my friend's '06 Tacoma with TBW and manual transmission. I felt like I was 16 again and didn't know how to time clutch and throttle. I find it incomprehensible how a modern Toyota can be *THAT* bad at tracking my pedal inputs, when BMW/Bosch did it so well 20 years ago.

My '92 BMW's throttle was indistiguishable from a mechanical linkage until I broke traction. One thing that electronic throttle does allow you to do is ditch the separate cruise module. The other thing my BMW had was *PERFECT* cruise control: instantaneous pickup and +/- 1 mph speed control, made possible by the electronic throttle.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-07-2013).]

ALLTRBO MSG #735, 01-07-2013 12:19 PM
      My old 2010 LLT (3.6 DI) Camaro and my current 2012 LS3 Camaro were and are indistinguishable from a cable throttle... except when I *try* to confuse the LS3's DBW. If I pulse the throttle from not to WOT multiple times, it will get more and more delayed, to the point that punching it takes around a 1/2 second to respond. That's ridiculous, but at least it only does it when I try. In all other conditions it's pretty much instant, as was the LLT's DBW. Traction control and cruise control are amazingly accurate.

The '09 Malibus I test drove when they were new had a painfully pathetic delay *all the time*. The 4 cylinder was worse than the V6, but both were bad. That's the primary reason we went with an '09 Civic instead (which, btw, is also DBW and doesn't have any delay).

I don't know what was wrong with GM, but hopefully they're all fixed now. If my Camaros had had that delay, I wouldn't have bought them either.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-07-2013).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #736, 01-15-2013 02:57 PM
      Did finally get the horrible RCC bump steer kit replaced with stock tie rods.



I bought the inners from the FieroStore. They came with the 12x1.75 set screw, but no mounting nut. I used a 12x1.75x25 bolt and a couple of thick washers instead of a nut with the set screw used as a stud.



The rear end is somewhat more stable, but I think I still have some looseness that I need to track down.

Finished the runs to the MAF and IAC... only have two A/C wires and clutch switch left to deal with.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-21-2013).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #737, 01-18-2013 10:46 AM
      Figured out how to deal with the clutch switch wire...

It starts with getting the right switch
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/126747.html


ericjon262 MSG #738, 01-20-2013 02:47 PM
      I was wondering if the RCC kit was worth anything performance wise. it's really hard to tell what works and what doesn't on this forum because of the pack mentality that goes on, if one person says something works, then by god it's the best thing since sliced bread!



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #739, 01-21-2013 11:27 AM
      The engineering on the RCC kit is weird and the original rod-ends used at the inner pivots were $10 chinese junk. I replaced the rod-ends with decent parts, but the kit's still junk. I bought it used, so it wasn't a big loss.

The stancion that pushes the inner pivot out from the stock cradle mount is a fabricated aluminum piece. The "stud" at the end is really a bolt that is dropped into the aluminum fabrication before it's welded up. It's odd.
Pushing the inner pivot out from the stock mount like that gives the fore/aft and vertical forces acting on the inner pivot additional leverage against the stock mount tab. This makes the entire toe link "flexible" and doesn't do anything to help driver confidence.

I have no idea if it gets the geometry right--even in the "ideal" circumstance in which the previously noted shortcomings do not apply--or not... I highly doubt it.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-21-2013).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #740, 01-22-2013 01:18 PM
      Old switch (left) vs. new:



The important difference between the '87 coolant pipe (left) and '86 coolant pipe:



'87 heater pipes (top) vs. '86 heater pipes:



And the real distinction between the two:



I installed the '86 right coolant pipe in the car. I fastened the '86 heater pipes with the two small screws to the two bosses in the fuel tank tunnel, but didn't get to the heavier clamps at the ends yet. The forward ends of the pipes are the same, of course. The '87 hoses are nicer than the '86 hoses (1 piece vs. 2), so I kept the '87 parts.
The '87 supply has a quick-connect fitting and an elbow that fits between the right forward cradle mount ears. I had run a hose from the Northstar heater supply connection at the left rear corner of the engine bay around the engine bay clockwise and connected to this elbow at that location. The '87 return T's into the side of the coolant pipe.
The engine compartment ends are just about perfect for the Northstar... They come up just to the left of the alternator and allow me to run the heater hoses along the "shelf" at the bottom of the firewall panel. Both heater hoses will run along the shelf and circle around the left end of the engine bay to mate to the previously mentioned heater supply and the heater circuit return on the thermostat housing at the left front corner of the engine.

Once the original coolant circulation is restored, I'll have heat more quickly on cold mornings. The engine may even warm up more quickly also.
I have drill this coming weekend, so I won't be able to work on the car again until the 2nd. At that time, I'll finish replumbing the heater circuit and will replace the damaged coolant hose from the thermostat to the cross-cradle pipe. Some time soon, I'll also replace the cross-cradle pipe with one of these: http://www.partman.com/cool...quot-x-1-2-quot.html or one of these: http://www.partman.com/cool...oil-16-1-2-quot.html

I also *FINALLY* have my anti-dive spacers machined, so I'll be able to install those soon.

I also drilled and tapped the splined ends of 3 CV joint cups and BOTH ends of my spare IMS with 10/32 holes for easy extraction of broken ends, when I break another axle. Those should go to Liberty this week along with the 3.94 FD and diff components.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-26-2013).]

FieroWannaBe (patond@alumni.msoe.edu) MSG #741, 01-22-2013 05:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
http://www.partman.com/cool...quot-x-1-2-quot.html or one of these: http://www.partman.com/cool...oil-16-1-2-quot.html


Cool find, I've been keeping my eye out for a cooler like that. Thanks for posting.

I am also interested in your anti-dive brackets. I remember reading about your idea a while back. I have some ideas of my own to try on my chump car. I'm interested to see how yours looks when complete. I need to get around to plugging some dimensions into the Lotus Suspension Analyzer program. (If you have any, I can run them for you)

[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 01-22-2013).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #742, 01-23-2013 10:47 AM
      What I have on the shelf ready to install are:

-Upper and lower reinforcement plates which will be placed directly against the body and crossmember.
-Spherical washer pairs which will take up the angle difference. These will go above the lower reinforcement plate on the crossmember and below the crossmember itself.
-Spacers. The spacers are a different thickness at each of the four mount locations per side. They will go between the spherical washer pair and the upper reinforcement plate.

The spacers are cut to give me a 1.092 lowering of the axle CL relative to the body (yes, this will raise the front end of the car by just over 1"). This makes the spacer thickness at the rear crossmember mount location zero. That doesn't mean that mount point is directly against the body... There will still be both upper and lower reinforcement plates and a spherical washer pair between the rear crossmember mount points and the body.

Edit: A picture is worth 1000 words, so I'll post when I get everything set up and organized.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-23-2013).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #743, 01-23-2013 11:31 AM
      Found a better price on the dual cooler: http://www.mrcool.us/85152t...gine-oil-cooler.html

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #744, 02-04-2013 12:40 PM
      The Mule is back on the road as of last night. As I was burping the cooling system yesterday, I didn't really have a good way to judge heater performance. This morning is was about 20 degrees out, and I started to get heat about 1/3 of the way to the point where I previously started to feel heat... so the heater pipe reroute is a success.

I also redid the thermostat hose. The old configuration was a CarQuest 20982 hose with a 1.5" nipple 3" long connecting it to a generic 45 degree 1.5" hose elbow. That was reduced to 1.25 for the cross-cradle pipe with a hose reducer bushing. There was a 17" flex hose from the cross-cradle pipe to the right coolant pipe.

The new configuration is a 1.5 x 1.25 flex hose 20" long from the thermostat housing to the cross-cradle pipe and a 20" 1.25" flex hose from the cross-cradle pipe to the coolant pipe. So I eliminated two clamped connections and a reducer bushing.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #745, 02-16-2013 05:16 PM
      Where in the FSM is the caliper bracket to steering knuckle bolt torque?

I found this post: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/109048.html#p7
Which says it's 83 ftlbs. That's reasonable, as that's a 12mm bolt... but I can't find it in the manual.


fierogt28 MSG #746, 02-16-2013 05:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Where in the FSM is the caliper bracket to steering knuckle bolt torque?

I found this post: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/109048.html#p7
Which says it's 83 ftlbs. That's reasonable, as that's a 12mm bolt... but I can't find it in the manual.


Will, I checked in my 86 FSM and the torque calls for 21-34 ft/lbs. (3C-2 front suspension)

I also checked in the fiero Haynes manual. The "caliper mounting bolts" are 40 ft/lbs. For "caliper mounting knuckle assembly bolt" is 35ft/lbs.

Hope this helps, but I assume you talking about the 2 caliper bolts that mount to the steering knuckle, right? (The Torx style bolts size T-50)



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #747, 02-16-2013 06:01 PM
      No, the '84-'87 front caliper bolts to a cast bracket which bolts to the knuckle. The bolts from the bracket to the knuckle are the ones I want.


fierogt28 MSG #748, 02-16-2013 07:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

No, the '84-'87 front caliper bolts to a cast bracket which bolts to the knuckle. The bolts from the bracket to the knuckle are the ones I want.


Will, I'm lost. Is this a stock 84-87 set-up?? There's not like 20 bolts in that area.

Post a pic of your set-up or a FSM diagram.

Thanks,



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #749, 02-19-2013 10:26 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fierogt28:
Will, I checked in my 86 FSM and the torque calls for 21-34 ft/lbs. (3C-2 front suspension)

I also checked in the fiero Haynes manual. The "caliper mounting bolts" are 40 ft/lbs. For "caliper mounting knuckle assembly bolt" is 35ft/lbs.

Hope this helps, but I assume you talking about the 2 caliper bolts that mount to the steering knuckle, right? (The Torx style bolts size T-50)



The listing on 3C-2 is for the caliper to bracket bolts (the T-50 Torx bolts). I'm looking for the bracket to knuckle bolts.

I believe I had seen the 35 ftlbs number previously, BUT I think I tightened these bolts to that number before and they backed off. This time I tightened to 83 ftlbs per the post I linked above... We'll see what happens. Note that once the photos load, the screen is no longer on post #7... look at post #7 for info on the front brakes.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-19-2013).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #750, 02-19-2013 12:06 PM
      I broke one of the crossmember bolts removing the crossmember the weekend of 2/9.

Got the bolt removed over the weekend. I had drilled it at an incorrect angle and ended up taking out some of the threads in the nut plate. My dad's friend the welder was able to get to the bolt with a TIG torch and weld a 1/4-20 bolt to it. Since I had drilled away the threads about 1/3 of the way around the bolt, it just unscrewed once the 1/4-20 bolt was welded to it.

I essentially only took the threads off the inside of the hole in the nut plate. We were able to use a drill guide bushing to drill the hole for a helicoil centered and at the correct angle. Helicoiled it and it seems to be doing fine. I had to increase the bolt length to 75mm for the forward bolts and 60mm for the rear bolts. I was only able to find 8.8 and 10.9 bolts locally. The manual calls for 52 ftlbs--quite a bit for 10mm bolts--and specifies to use new bolts every time. I'll order some 12.9's so I don't have to replace them every time.

Now, on to the anti-dive block installation:

IT'S ****ING AWESOME!!!!

I should have done this YEARS ago. Brake dive is reduced to almost nothing. When I hit the brakes, it FEELS like a supercar for the first time EVER. I haven't been able to hammer the downhill side of the mountain yet, but I'm REALLY looking forward to trying that once the weather warms up.

Pics of the parts:










I slotted the bolt holes slightly in the vertical axis in the LCA rear pivots. The fore aft position was a little bit off, but they went back together with an about average amount of "persuasion" considering that this is still the 84-87 suspension that doesn't go back together cleanly even with stock parts.

The steering shaft coupling did not go all the way onto the steering shaft on the rack, BUT it went on far enough to engage the pinch bolt.

The diagonal braces that go forward fron the cross member to pick up the rear bolts of the lower radiator support needed to have the holes slotted at both ends.

The caliper bracket bolts I had previously tightened to 35 ftlbs (I think) worked loose. I tightened to 83 ftlbs this time. They're 12mm bolts... they can take it.

The upper shock mounts needed a little more effort to get bolted back in than usual. I hadn't realized that lowering the crossmember would put the shock closer to its droop limit. This means that the suspension doesn't have as much droop travel as it did stock. It also means that the shock's bump travel will not be fully exploited. This would actually be a good thing for cars running lowering springs.

The car also sits 1" higher in the front than previously. This will be rectified soon when I install my Street Dreams aluminum 2" lowering knuckles.

It also needs an alignment.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-19-2013).]

FieroWannaBe (patond@alumni.msoe.edu) MSG #751, 02-19-2013 03:11 PM
      Awesome. This gives me some ideas and reinforcment for my planned modification to the front of my racecar.

fierogt28 MSG #752, 02-19-2013 05:23 PM
      Will, its sounds like your brake set-up isn't stock. This is what I want to know.

The 84-87 calipers bolt directly to the knuckle with two Torx-50 bolts.

Those pics with the brackets are bolted from the knuckle (the old caliper mounting points) and the caliper is
bolted on the bracket. You won't find any spec in the FSM for a modified set-up.

Nobody can actually give you a torque reading unless you use the torque spec use to bolt the caliper to the knuckle.

I owned an 86GT years ago, and there is no caliper brackets what-so-ever. The caliper bolts to the knuckle.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #753, 02-19-2013 05:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fierogt28:

The 84-87 calipers bolt directly to the knuckle with two Torx-50 bolts.


This is not correct. The calipers bolt to cast or forged brackets which bolt to the knuckles. The Torx bolts attach the caliper to the bracket. There are two conventional hex bolts with 12mm threads that bolt the bracket to the knuckle.

Edit: Photos of stock bracket: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/122182.html#p7

What the aftermarket kits do is replace the stock bracket with an aftermarket bracket that holds a different caliper.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-19-2013).]

fierogt28 MSG #754, 02-19-2013 06:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


This is not correct. The calipers bolt to cast or forged brackets which bolt to the knuckles. The Torx bolts attach the caliper to the bracket. There are two conventional hex bolts with 12mm threads that bolt the bracket to the knuckle.

Edit: Photos of stock bracket: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/122182.html#p7

What the aftermarket kits do is replace the stock bracket with an aftermarket bracket that holds a different caliper.



Will, I understand what you mean now...sorry my mistake. That's for the link for pics...that clairifies everything.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #755, 02-19-2013 09:54 PM
      But the FSM doesn't cover the bracket to knuckle bolts... at least not that I've been able to find.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #756, 03-09-2013 03:47 PM
      Last weekend I got the FINAL wires hooked up for the Shelby harness adapter.

The Shelby A/C request signal from the HVAC panel is analogous to the Fiero A/C on signal. The Shelby computer reads ground via the pressure cycling switch and operates the compressor 100% via software.
I grounded the Shelby pressure cycling switch wire. This *should* cause the Shelby PCM to keep the compressor on at all times except over 86% throttle or above ~4000 RPM. Meanwhile, the Fiero A/C system will continue to work as it currently does.

My alternative was:
In the Fiero, the pressure cycling switch has switched +12V from the HVAC panel on one side and the A/C comp relay primary on the other side. To make the Shelby setup work, I'd have had to take the +12V side of the PCS and ground it, then redirect the relay primary high side wire to the PCM instead. I'd then have to pull relay primary power from the PCM power supply.
Making those mods to the car didn't give me the reversibility I was looking for, which is the whole reason I'm building the harness adapter instead of modifying the harness right away.

I spliced the OBDII port into the harness adapter. I squeezed the two ground wires from it, the pressure cycling switch wire and the MAF ground wire--all 20 ga--into one 16-18 splice with one 18 ga wire on the other side, so I can ground them all with one lug.
I added the A/C request wire from the C203 to the Caddy PCM connector. The Caddy system did NOT originally have an A/C Request line because the PCM received A/C comp instructions from the HVAC panel via the data bus. The HVAC panel monitored the functions of the A/C system.
I also added a clutch switch wire from the C203 (would be the TCC brake switch in an auto trans car) to the Caddy PCM cruise brake switch pin.

I ALSO finally ran the clutch switch wire from the clutch switch to the chassis side of the C203. It wasn't as much of a PITA to fish it through the console as I thought it would be, but it works now.

I'm flying out for two weeks with the Navy on Saturday, so I won't be able to work on this again until 3/23 at the EARLIEST, as I may have an additional 2 weeks taking me through 4/6 or so. My girlfriend is having knee surgery on 4/8, so I'll won't be able to to work on the car much while she's recovering from that.

What remains to do for the Shelby computer is to swap the OBDI throttle to the OBDII throttle--which appears to be a PITA because the throttle has to be disassembled and reassembled on the manifold vice just bolting on--then install the harness adapter and computer.

In addition to getting laid off on Monday, I also hit some expressway debris which flattened my rear tire. I already needed front tires, so I just had to order 4. Feh.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #757, 03-09-2013 04:02 PM
      Bad alignment sent my front tires to an early grave. I hit some road debris Monday that did the same to one of my rears... So now I get to buy an entire set of tires. And I have to limit myself to the cheapos, too, because of the layoff.

The shop that mounted and balanced attempted to align and found that the UHMW Polyethylene bushings I'd made years and years ago were worn. I guess it's time for spherical bearings now. I had originally gone with UHMW PE on the assumption that spherical bearings would be "too harsh" for a street car. Having driven the UHMW bushings, I think that's bunk. To me, they are barely worse than rubber.

So I figure I'll just snag a bunch of these: http://secure.chassisshop.com/partlist/6455/



And weld them into the control arms. The only ticklish part will be tacking them in place to make sure that they're positioned correctly so that they bolt in without any axial preload on the spherical bearings.
Then I'll have serviceable spherical bearings for the rear control arms and front lowers... probably easiest pushing changes possible in a Fiero.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #758, 03-09-2013 04:16 PM
      Does anyone have the outer shell diameter dimensions of the rear and front lower control arm bushings?

Having that info will help me pick out the right weld cup without having to buy trial bushings myself.

Of course those bushings are fairly cheap, so I may just snag them anyway.


ericjon262 MSG #759, 03-09-2013 04:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Does anyone have the outer shell diameter dimensions of the rear and front lower control arm bushings?

Having that info will help me pick out the right weld cup without having to buy trial bushings myself.

Of course those bushings are fairly cheap, so I may just snag them anyway.


I can get you the rear size, I'll just have to find my calipers when I get home.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #760, 03-09-2013 08:39 PM
      That would be great.

ericjon262 MSG #761, 03-09-2013 08:57 PM
      This is a rear lower.



1.68"



1.79"



2.17"



1.54"

let me know if you need another measurement.

[This message has been edited by ericjon262 (edited 03-09-2013).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #762, 03-10-2013 07:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:

This is a rear lower.



1.79"



1.54"

let me know if you need another measurement.



Thanks!

These are closest to what I was looking for... I'd like the OD of the bushing shell at the two locations where it presses into the control arm.
The first pic above appears to be the OD of the lip of the control arm where the bushing installs.
The second pic is the ID of the bushing sleeve at the opposite end.

The OD of the shell at the flange end and the other end are different. This is done so that you don't have to push the press-fit along the entire length of the bushing when installing. It also means that the measurements I need for the detail design pretty much have to come from a naked bushing.

Taking a swag and going halfway between these two measurements is 1.665".

From http://secure.chassisshop.com/partdetail/C73-442/
The weld cup for a 5/8" spherical bearing has an OD of 1.6875... so it could probably be turned down to just the right size to install in the control arms.
However, it's only 0.971 long, so it would need an additional shell to support its entire length.
The 5/8" rod end is a better choice than the 1/2" rod end. Using the stock 12mm bolt, the 5/8" rod end allows the end spacers to have locating shoulders. The 1/2" rod end doesn't have enough radial clearance around the 12mm bolt for that.

So to use the 5/8" rod end, I'll need to make my own weld cups specifically for the Fiero control arms. <sigh>



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #763, 03-17-2013 12:08 PM
      How do the '84-'87 and '88 front lower control arm bushings compare?
I know that one urethane kit covers both applications.

RockAuto does not show any front lower bushings for the '88, so I can't compare listings via that site.
I see that the Fiero Store shows the same bushings between '84-'87 front lowers and '88 front lowers.
I'm @$$uming that RockAuto doesn't list them for all years because the '88's may have had a different durometer spec and therefore a different part number in GM's system.

If the shell dimensions are close enough that the same weld sleeve would work for both applications, then I'll just make an additional set to use on my Formula.

I'll also evaluate to see if one design can satisfy the needs of both rears and front lowers for the '84-'87 cars. It would be sweet if one design could replace all three bushing applications.

I ordered a set of '84-'87 rear and front lower bushings from Rock Auto, so I'll have the raw data soon enough.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-17-2013).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #764, 03-30-2013 02:57 PM
      Spent a bit more time with the bushings and scratching out some sketches. I have a configuration of weld cup that I think will work in place of both bushing shells.
However to finalize the OD profile, properly locate the spherical bearing axially within the cup and spec the three different end spacer lengths I'll need in order bolt in to the stock chassis pick up locations, I'll need to get my hands on some control arms.

I'm away for Navy duty this month, but will be back the weekend of the 6th.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #765, 04-15-2013 11:51 AM
      Shelby computer is in and running.

With the Caddy computer "exploded" to life when started... It would flash to 2000 RPM and settle back to idle. Quite dramatic, but unnecessary. With the Shelby computer, it starts at idle like a normal car.
The engine is also much quicker to return to idle when I release the throttle. For the first time EVER, it DOES NOT STALL when I sink the clutch on overrun.
The idle is stable, although it "hiccups" when it transitions from cold idle to closed-loop idle.
There is no DFCO .

The tune is WAY off... for this engine. It falls on its face at WOT above 2500ish RPM, so I'm thinking it's pulling timing due to knock. I'll have to fill up on Sunoco and see if that gets any better.

Fortunately, this computer is tunable via HPTuners, so I can have any shop with HPTuners that has experience with with LS1's (don't they all?) hammer out the base tune.

The OBDII throttle cam is very different and much more progressive than the OBDI throttle cam. The engine's much more controllable at parking lot throttle now than it was; as a side effect, my right foot calibration had to enter learning mode, and was a bit clumsy on the test drive last night.
My dad had a similar experience with the TPI 400 in his Jaguar. The TPI throttle cam wasn't progressive and the car has 3.31 gears, so it was easy to unintentionally to bark the tires when leaving a stoplight. The more progressive LT1 throttle cam mitigated that tendency.

Had to file out an opening for the Fiero throttle cable in the Caddy throttle cable bracket. That was a PITA, but done now.

The hose "nipple" on the MAF housing is slightly larger than the hose connection on the OBDI throttle, so it was pretty tough to stretch my previous intake hose onto that fitting. Now that this throttle with its integral MAF housing is installed, I can work on my 3.5" intake tube, for which I've had aluminum donut halves on the shelf for ever.
I will also need to get a couple of different PCV tubes to accommodate the new PCV connection locations.

3.94 gearset, diff side/spider gears, IMS and some extra CV joint cups are back from Liberty's... they're blingin'. Pics of all too follow.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 04-15-2013).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #766, 04-15-2013 11:59 AM
      Pics:

MAF housing, Throttle Body, TB Adapter, manifold flange. TB and Adapter faces shown mate


MAF housing, Throttle Body, TB Adapter, manifold flange. TB and MAF housing faces shown mate; Adapter and manifold flange faces shown mate.


Old assembly vs. new parts. My high tech EGR blockoff plate is visible on the old TB adapter. It had to be modified slightly to work with the new hottness.


Throttle cable bracket... will take a pic of how I modded it sometime.


Full set of components that went through Liberty's Cryo+mikronite-like process: Getrag 3.94 R&P; Type II IMS; couple of extra CV joint cups (I think these were cryo only); side gears, spider gears and cross pin from the later style larger Getrag diff; spring plates from an EP LSD for same.


3.94 output shaft... hardness testing marks are *just* barely visible


3.94 output shaft gear teeth and 1-2 synchro splines. Blingin'


One of the spider gears, also with hardness testing marks visible


Transmission end of Type II IMS


3.94 ring gear. It also has hardness testing marks on the ends of some of the teeth, but those aren't visible in this angle/lighting.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #767, 04-15-2013 12:07 PM
      Made some progress on the intake tube: 3.5" aluminum tubing. The bends are from tight radius 3.5" donut halves that I had to order from F@#$ing Australia. The straight sections were rolled by a local sheet metal shop.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #768, 04-23-2013 04:32 PM
      It's a graph. It has numbers. It scanned crooked because it was printed crooked.

I'm not sure what was done between the 306 ftlbs run and the 301 ftlbs runs. I hope that will be straighten-outable on my return to the dyno. I'd also like to get him to do some work between 1000 and 2500 RPM, as that's where I do most of my driving, and it's still a bit lumpy in that range.

Also need to be sure the tuner looks at peak injector duty cycle, so I know how much horsepower head room I have before I have to start looking for injectors.



This was Tuesday of last week. The tuner had problems with KR because I had a brain fart and still had the OBDI knock sensor, even though I'd switched to the OBDII PCM. I bought a new sensor and pigtail from CarQuest and installed that sensor late last week.

When I first assembled the engine, I used new valve cover seals. I did not have any problems with leaks. I took the valve covers off to re-torque the head studs and forgot that the seals are one-time-use. I reassembled with the old seals (because I had to move the car) and both covers leaked. I replaced them both again; the rear cover sealed up, but the front one still leaked. Just last weekend, I replaced the front seal AGAIN, and it finally seems to be sealed.

I have ordered a PCM bracket.

I need to measure the available space inside the quarter panel so I know which K&N to order. When I have the filter, I can finish the intake tube. Once that's done, I'll go back to the dyno for a touch up.


IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #769, 05-01-2013 02:26 AM
      Very nice, Will.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #770, 05-05-2013 01:28 PM
      Thanks. I'm just getting started. ;-)

I have just a few more things to do to it, and then plan to leave it alone over the summer. I'll try to take it to the Texas Mile in October, followed by a round of engine-out mods.
A few more things to do:
-Mount PCM
-Complete intake tube
-Retune
-Spherical bearing suspension pivots
-Install treated axle components
-Complete/install oil pan heat shield
-Design/install oil/water heat exchanger

Hoping for ~320 RWHP at this point

Engine-out mods:
-Install 3.94 ring & pinion with EP LSD.
-Install worked crank with corrected rod journal diameter and rod bearing clearance
-Install ported heads
-Install Y2K+ intake manifold
-Install 266 intake cams in exhaust locations
-Rework wiring harness and find permanent home for PCM
-Remove stock oil fill, install new oil fill and paint valve covers
-Repair/replace right decklid hinge box and chassis side dogbone mount bracket
-Chromoly flywheel?

Hoping for 360 WHP and will turn 7500 RPM at this point

Afterward:
-Headers
-288 reground cams
-Throttle per cylinder
-Even bigger cams from custom billets?
-Franken F40 with '07 first-fifth, 0.62 sixth and 3.91 final

Final goal: 450+ RWHP and 8500 RPM

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-10-2013).]

IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #771, 05-05-2013 11:18 PM
      Dang! I still have the random stall using the LS1 unit. I also have the high rpm start and then drop to 750. The HP Tuner didn't get the stall problem tuned out. So, what did your shop do? I have the mild 272 cams too, eh. I've seriously thought about going back to VIN 9 cams.

Why the Y2K intake manifold?

[This message has been edited by IXSLR8 (edited 05-05-2013).]

fieroguru MSG #772, 05-06-2013 08:17 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:
Dang! I still have the random stall using the LS1 unit. I also have the high rpm start and then drop to 750. The HP Tuner didn't get the stall problem tuned out. So, what did your shop do? I have the mild 272 cams too, eh. I've seriously thought about going back to VIN 9 cams.


Larger camshafts are less efficient at idle, so they need more airflow and less fuel to avoid stalling/surging. It sounds like you need to increase the Base Running Airflow values. With the right airflow values the engine RPMs will drop to idle RPM w/o stalling.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #773, 05-07-2013 09:50 AM
      After some more driving time, I've found that it has the flared start when it's cold, but on hot restarts it barely exceeds idle.

Your cams definitely affect your idle tuning.
Not all tuners are created equal. If the tuner is good at getting cammed up LS1's to idle, he should be able to do it for you.

I have 288's on the shelf, so I'll be dealing with the same thing in a while.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #774, 05-17-2013 08:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:

Why the Y2K intake manifold?



Bigger runners than the '93-'99 manifold to go along with the bigger intake ports on the roller cam heads. CHRF's numbers for ported flat tappet heads get to about 280 CFM on the intake; ported roller cam heads top 300.

I'm making an educated guess that the stock Y2K manifold will be pretty close to the right size/shape/location/angle to work with ported flat tappet heads. I'll probably end up doing a mock assembly without valves so that I can judge how close the manifold and ported heads will end up being... may have to spend quality time with a sanding roll to get the interface perfect.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 05-17-2013).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #775, 06-05-2013 10:40 AM
      Proof the valve cover comes off with the engine in the car:



Blingin' new mad JDMTytej0 blue valve cover seal (plug well o-rings not installed):


This may have been the problem
This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

Finally finished the CAI. It's been on the car a couple of weeks now, but the car's been at my dad waiting for some rust repair on the passenger floor pan. The really good welder is moving about 2 hours south of my dad's place (about 3-3.5 hours from where I live) and starting his own shop. Good luck to him, but that means now I have to start paying for welding (and learning how to do it myself). The guy at the fab shop I've had to use has already had some "interesting" interpretations of my directions for both the diff snout bracket on the Eagle project and repair of The Mule's right rear engine mount bracket.

The CAI can be installed without disconnecting shift cables or removing the shift linkage, but it's very tight and needs a little persuasion in order to squeeze between the bottom edge of the stock fenderwell pass-through and the fuel fill pipe. It's 3.5"... I'm not sure how Sinister got a 4" pipe through.

The induction noise is quite different. The old setup of a mitered stainless pipe with parts store paper filter in the engine bay sounded like a combined jam session with Metallica and Skrillex when I put the loud pedal down and ran out the RPM. Now it sounds more like a sporting V8. I was also surprised to find that I could tell a difference in the location of the source of the sound.

Without further ado, I give you the frankenstien caterpillar pornstar;



With BDSM accessories:


The old crappy setup:


The new hawttness:


Top view:


Across the bay angle:


It doesn't show up in any of the photos (I guess that was the idea--to keep it out of sight) but there is a bung for the IAT on the bottom of the tube right next to the coupler to the MAF housing. I re-routed the IAT wires from being bundled with the fuel pump and A/C clutch relays to being bundled with the TPS, IAC and MAF wires.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 06-05-2013).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #776, 08-05-2013 02:28 PM
      Had some driveability problems that were partially fixed by replacing the coils and probably will be completely fixed by replacing the ignition switch.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #777, 10-21-2013 10:19 AM
      Body side ground had deteriorated... new screw and some dielectric grease in it, and it works again.

The engine block grounds from the engine wiring harness had deteriorated a bit, too. I replaced both ground lugs/loops and they're doing ok again. Time for plugs...

Making headway with Torque in that I was able to load the predefined set of GM PID's, BUT I'm getting junk data for the injector pulse widths and misfire counters.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #778, 01-18-2014 09:31 PM
      This happened a couple of weeks ago on my way back from the bank:





I eased out from a stoplight until the clutch was hooked up then punched it and had a free rev... I had enough momentum to make it to a parking lot. Came back later and brought it home on a rope. My dad was able to raid the stash and send me another tripod assembly.

The cup I broke at the dragstrip and this tripod were both in the car for the 1.5 years I daily drove it in P'Cola, so this is most likely the result of long term accumulation of overstress.

Also, finally got my heat shields done:







I'm not sure if the bolt that holds the two pieces together will clear the exhaust or not. If not, I'll replace it with a great big pop rivet or similar.

There's about 1/16" between the under-pan heat shield and the pan and about 1/16" between the heat shield and the pipe. I was testing it in the car before I decided I needed to make the rear face heat shield that would interface to it.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-18-2014).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #779, 01-21-2014 12:19 PM
      Couple more shots of the heat shields:





fierogtlt1 (fierogtlt1@bellsouth.net) MSG #780, 01-21-2014 01:00 PM
      Great job on the heat shields......They looks awesome.

[This message has been edited by fierogtlt1 (edited 01-21-2014).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #781, 01-22-2014 02:43 PM
      Thanks!
Just gotta get them installed.


IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #782, 01-31-2014 02:00 AM
      How's the LS1 computer working?
I still have that dang stall issue.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #783, 02-01-2014 12:53 PM
      Runs great... needs a touch up tune since I finished the CAI that is infinitely superior to the mitred intake tube I had installed previously.

It does not stall, HOWEVER, I DO have the clutch switch input to the Shelby computer hooked up. Do you have that in your install?


IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #784, 02-02-2014 02:16 AM
      Yes, I believe I do.

The fiero clutch switch was backwards if I remember right. I had to wire it the way the Shelby liked it.

I do have the mild 272 cams...the Shelby program netted nothing over stock STS cams by my local performance tuner. I'm thinking about reverting back to stock cams to see if that makes any difference with stalling.

Who did your base tune?

[This message has been edited by IXSLR8 (edited 02-02-2014).]

fieroguru MSG #785, 02-02-2014 08:02 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:

How's the LS1 computer working?
I still have that dang stall issue.


More than likely, you need to increase the values in the Base Running Airflow Table and possibly adjust the Throttle Follower and Throttle Cracker tables.
My LS4 is running an auto only calibration with a 224/232 camshaft and a 6 speed and don't have any off throttle stalling issues... its all in having the right values in the tune. Larger camshafts need more airflow at idle.


IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #786, 02-02-2014 04:36 PM
      Sounds like I'm going to have to learn how to tune...or find a person of excellence here in Portland.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #787, 02-03-2014 08:01 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:

Yes, I believe I do.

The fiero clutch switch was backwards if I remember right. I had to wire it the way the Shelby liked it.

I do have the mild 272 cams...the Shelby program netted nothing over stock STS cams by my local performance tuner. I'm thinking about reverting back to stock cams to see if that makes any difference with stalling.

Who did your base tune?



Sinister set it up to run with the Northstar, but didn't have access to the right MAF tables. I had a local tuner dial it in.

The beauty of the Shelby computer is that ANY tuning shop (or you if you throw down for HP Tuners) can make changes.

I don't know why you'd have problems and I wouldn't, though. I guess your cams vs. the idle settings might be causing your stalling issue. That should be straightforward to tune out as any tuning shop has seen dozens of cammed LS1's. I told the shop I went to that it would be like tuning a full-bolt-on LS1 that still had the factory tune and he did fine. You did tell him yours is cammed, right?

I have 288's on the shelf, so I'm probably going to go through some of the same problems when I upgrade.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-03-2014).]

fieroguru MSG #788, 02-03-2014 07:52 PM
      Here is a good thread on idle tuning the Gen 3 engines with larger camshafts using HP Tuners:
http://www.hptuners.com/for...real%20time%20tuning

If you are going to spend the $$$ on an engine swap, go ahead and buy a tuning package and learn to tune it yourself. It will save you a lot of headaches and likely more $$$ in the long run.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #789, 02-07-2014 10:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by IXSLR8:

Yes, I believe I do.

The fiero clutch switch was backwards if I remember right. I had to wire it the way the Shelby liked it.



It is wired backwards from the Fiero switch. However, I was rather pleased that I was able to find a switch combo that worked.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../000121-19.html#p739

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/126747.html


Diamond Dave MSG #790, 03-03-2014 01:17 AM
      Hey Will. There is supposed to be a company in Canada that does super strong axels for the fieros. I might be able to get the manufacturers name if interested. I belive they were around $1400. Supposed to be good enough for the dragsters up to 1000 horse. Also you referenced a Shelby computer. Like in mustang shelby or is that a brand?

Diamond Dave MSG #791, 03-03-2014 04:37 AM
      Hey Will did you see Blooze's post on the certs he used. Those look about 4 times stronger than the regular certs. Just thought I would remind you if you hadn't seen his post.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #792, 03-04-2014 02:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Diamond Dave:

Hey Will. There is supposed to be a company in Canada that does super strong axels for the fieros. I might be able to get the manufacturers name if interested. I belive they were around $1400. Supposed to be good enough for the dragsters up to 1000 horse. Also you referenced a Shelby computer. Like in mustang shelby or is that a brand?


I thought about upgraded axles and even located a few sets of the 94mm output flanges used in the Ecotec racing program. I could build custom axles, spending $1000-1500, only to move the weak link inside the transmission. As it is I can replace a broken axle in about 30 minutes... and it's cheap to throw spares on the shelf. It's much more difficult to replace a Getrag.

The Shelby computer uses the .bin from the Shelby Series 1 supercar in the PCM from an LS1 Camaro.

 
quote
Originally posted by Diamond Dave:

Hey Will did you see Blooze's post on the certs he used. Those look about 4 times stronger than the regular certs. Just thought I would remind you if you hadn't seen his post.


I'm familiar with them. Thanks.
My standard serts are holding fine and I have ARP studs.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 03-04-2014).]

Diamond Dave MSG #793, 04-02-2014 01:42 AM
      I know ARP's are from volkswagen right, but what does ARP stand for? Also since you straightened out my thinking on the axels I wanted to let you know that I agree with you 100%. Rather break an axel than a transmission any day. Can you build those heat shields again and what would it cost me for a set? I think that is a very smart move.

DD


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #794, 04-02-2014 05:57 PM
      Yes, the studs are originally designed for a VW application. The Northstar takes 2 sets.

ARP = Automotive Racing Products.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #795, 04-15-2014 09:14 AM
      Provent 200:



Total new PCV system components:



Ultra-ghetto temporary installation, PRE-mounting. I have since attached the separator to the trunk wall reinforcement with a couple of screws.



Crankcase outlet. Now that it's heat cycled a few times, the hose has relaxed and fits better.



Manifold connection. If you look closely you can see that I did grommet the holes. I did not cut holes in my trunk bulkhead for this... I'm just reusing the coil/alternator blower ducting holes... since the coil/alt blower is long gone.



The thing I hate most about '84-'87 front control arms:



The other thing I hate most about '84-'87 front control arms:



The pivot axes are not aligned.

This makes using anything except sperical bearings a recipe for binding in one way or another. I wish I had known the design was that screwed up before I wasted hours on the lathe making UHMW bushings.

However, I *did* get most of the design work for spherical bearing shells done.


sleevePAPA MSG #796, 04-15-2014 02:39 PM
      I like the subdued look of that Pro-vent, exactly what I looking for to use on the GN. If you can I'd like to know how well it performs on your car, and where you bought it too.

Thanks!


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #797, 04-17-2014 11:21 AM
      I bought from here: http://www.diesel-filters.c...ustrial-off-highway/

It's gotten rid of my oil smoke from excessive PCV oil.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #798, 04-22-2014 08:27 AM
      Since the Fiero wasn't designed for a 350 HP engine, things like this happen:



So I had that welded up and a little reinforcement added where I thought the factory welds from the crossmember to the rail were inadequate



Then I started taking apart some old knuckles that I'd had on the shelf for years



I had been thinking that they were C5 knuckles, but they aren't. I'm actually not sure what they are, but they bear significant resemblance to CTS rear knuckles. The CTS was fairly new when I think I bought them on ebay.







The parking brake seems essentially identical to the Corvette mechanism. The parking brake backing plate bolts right onto an aluminum Grand Am knuckle I had lying around. This knuckle will bolt up the 12" W- and F-body brakes and only differs from the W-boy knuckle in the way the strut attaches... it's much closer to bolting up a Fiero strut than the W-body knuckle is. However, as can be seen in the photos above, there are two long bolts through the knuckle which secure the mechanism to the knuckle and react any torque loads from the parking brake. These are not present in the front knuckle, obviously. Adding them would be a fairly serious machining and fab operation and is not practical. The parking brake can probably be made to work without... it would just be more flexible as the loads are only reacted via the (very thin) backing plate.

I thought I had a pair of Corvette hubs to play with, but evidently I do not.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #799, 07-25-2014 01:20 PM
      Minor victory: I have my PCV system fully sealed now.

When I installed to the OBDII throttle to go with the Shelby computer, I had to change to the OBDII PCV tubes. The OBDII fresh air tube connects to the throttle so that it draws metered air (been through the MAF) into the PCV system. The OBDI fresh air tube connected to the intake boot. Both tubes go to the same location on the forward cam cover. The formed nylon tube is the same diameter between the OBDI and OBDII styles. However, the OBDII assembly has a larger diameter fitting at the connection to the cam cover. The OBDII grommet designed for this larger fitting requires a larger hole in the cam cover. I didn't know that at the time, so when I tried to put everything together, it didn't fit. Also at the time I didn't realize that I could just pop the fittings out of the formed nylon tubes and swap them, so as to run the OBDI fitting in the OBDII tube. I put it together without a grommet, with just a little bit of a gap around the fitting. I lost track of the OBDI grommet, too, naturally.
I later realized that this was a metered air leak. I had to get a new grommet, which between the higher cost of NOS parts and exorbitant shipping ended up costing me $30. I installed the old fitting in the new tube and put everything back together, so now I eliminated a metered air leak that was affecting my idle BLM's.

Major work: Just replaced the oil manifold plate and swapped windage tray, main bolts and oil pickup tube to new style design; side effect: ~8 oz of weight savings

I'd been noticing oily deposits accumulating on the outside of the block. After inspection and consideration, I decided that the oil manifold plate on the bottom of the lower crank case was leaking. When I assembled the engine, I modified and then reinstalled a used oil manifold plate, not knowing at the time that pretty much all the gaskets on the engine are one-time-use. I decided that it wouldn't be a big deal to install a stock oil manifold plate, and use the mods I did to the one in the engine as a template for making a better one from scratch.

Without further ado:

The bottom of the car after a few thousand miles of driving... the exhaust is much dirtier than the last photo I took.


Oil schmutz on intermediate shaft and right inner CV joint:


OIl stains with exhaust removed:


Closer view, can also see the remainder of the stock Fiero engine mount "tray":


The front side of the block:


More schmutz:


Old style setup with oil pan removed and crank pulley blocked up on 2x4's; the front of the engine needs to come up a couple of inches to reach the front oil pan bolts


Windage tray removed:


New parts ready to go in:


Overall comparison of the manifold plates; the grey "ring" on the old one is oil resistant RTV I used to seal the new style pickup tube to the old style plate which didn't have the built-in seal:


Here's the big difference. The old style had cast-in-place steel bucks against which the main bolts tighten. The new style plate doesn't have those. Instead the main bolts tighten against the steel windage tray


The biggest mod I made to the old one; this is an oil drain back hole. These holes are cored in the lower crank case, so they taper, small end at the bottom. They can be drilled out (one had to be located on a mill, though), but then the holes in the manifold plate need to be opened up also:


Here's why it's ticklish:


Lower crank case with the manifold plate removed:


Comparison of the detail differences between the windage trays:


New hardware installed


The parts that came out; I saved the weight of the nuts, the stud heads on the bolts and a few grams out of the windage tray:



Also had a realization about my oil consumption... I need to dig out my invoice from Total Seal and have a discussion with them. If I used low tension oil rings, those in combination with my large bearing clearances could certainly explain my oil consumption. At the time I didn't realize (or maybe just didn't connect the dots) that low tension rings require exquisite crankcase oil control.

Also, looking at options for intake and throttle body upgrades.
I *think* that later in the production run, the Northstar and LS engines started to use the same throttles.
Does anyone know what a 12555840 does? It looks like an adapter coupling that bolts to the LS 3 bolt throttle connection, but the other side looks like it just takes a round tube...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-25-2014).]

dobey MSG #800, 07-26-2014 03:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Does anyone know what a 12555840 does? It looks like an adapter coupling that bolts to the LS 3 bolt throttle connection, but the other side looks like it just takes a round tube...


It looks like a rubber hose/gasket that sits between the actual intake manifold, and the coolant pump housing, which the throttle body actually bolts to:






Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #801, 07-27-2014 02:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

It looks like a rubber hose/gasket that sits between the actual intake manifold, and the coolant pump housing, which the throttle body actually bolts to:





Thanks!

On the '93-'99 engines, the throttle is bolted to the manifold and EGR gas is introduced via a spacer between the throttle and intake manifold. The water manifold doubles as an EGR cooler.
For Y2K+ the "tower" was added to the water manifold, and the EGR gas was introduced through that, eliminating the external EGR tube that went from the water manifold to the EGR spacer between the throttle and intake manifold.
The throttle bolts to the "tower".

What I did not already know is that the Y2K+ throttle uses the same three bolt pattern as the LS throttles, and that the bolts that secure it to the tower do NOT go all the way through into the manifold. This makes the manifold cheaper as it no longer requires brass threaded inserts for the throttle body bolts.

I did not realize that the 12555840 adapter receives the throttle body bolts and only attaches to the manifold with a hose clamp.

That info is helpful because it illuminates some of the things I'm going to have to do for my Y2K intake manifold conversion.


dobey MSG #802, 07-28-2014 01:50 PM
      Glad to help.

Will you need to swap the water manifold to the newer style as well, to convert to the new intake?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #803, 07-28-2014 02:33 PM
      I don't want to swap water logs, but it looks like I'll need to make something to support the throttle.

It's not really a big deal if I have to switch. I think I still have one of the new style water manifolds on the shelf, so I'll see if the passages in it are conducive to running the throttle without it.

I have the '93 water manifold with no external EGR outlet and '95 heads without the drillings to connect to the internal EGR passages from the '93 manifold, so I feel like I elegantly eliminated EGR... but that's a fairly minor victory.

The later water log would certainly be a more elegant, but slightly heavier, way to switch to the later intake manifold.

Hmm... just remembered that the water passages from the water log to the heads are different shapes between the '93-'99 and the '00+ setups. I may not be able to use the Y2K water log and may be forced to make something.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-28-2014).]

dobey MSG #804, 07-28-2014 02:53 PM
      Yeah, I was wondering about the port holes for the water pump, as the Gen V SBC pumps have the same issue with running them on the Gen III/IV engines.

I guess you could just make something out of a piece of 1/2" aluminum, to fit things together, and find some way to mount it for stability.


IXSLR8 (david@kerrworks.com) MSG #805, 07-30-2014 01:25 AM
      There's always the electric pump setup that CHRF's sells.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #806, 07-30-2014 07:38 AM
      That wouldn't help mount the Y2K intake manifold. I'm not a fan of electric waterpumps anyway.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-30-2014).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #807, 08-01-2014 08:52 AM
      Next job will be installing an oil cooler.

I recently found out that different retailers had been listing the SeaKamp 212134 with 3/8" NPT oil connections and 212144 with 1/2" NPT oil connections under the same Mercruiser part number 63832T... That's why I couldn't get straight info on what size the connections on the Mercruiser cooler were. I've sorted that out.
Those coolers have 12" cores and are ~15" overall length.

There are a couple that have 14" cores and are ~17" overall length. I'd really like one of those, but I can't figure out the part numbers.
There are two Merc PN's that fit the bill: 863832T01 and Mercruiser 862837T, but I can't find consistent info on angled oil connections vs. straight, inverted flare vs. NPT and 3/8" vs. 1/2".

In addition, because the Northstar flows 12 GPM of oil, I want eventually add ANOTHER cooler, but this one could be dual engine oil and trans fluid.
Mercruiser 85152T fits the bill, with a 9" engine oil core and 5" power steering core, which I would repurpose for transmission fluid.
I just found out that the R&D Enterprises version of that cooler has 1/2" NPT connections, so I may be able to use that one.

I also found a street elbow that's 1/2" male NPT on one side and 3/4" hose barb on the other: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/gar-7-69hhb-12x8
The oil ports on the side of the Northstar block are 18mm, so the 3/4" hose is necessary to avoid additional restriction beyond the drop to 1/2" NPT for the oil cooler.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #808, 09-18-2014 12:06 PM
      Had a conversation with an engineer at New Hampshire Ball Bearing last Friday
http://www.nhbb.com

While I would really like to find an auto industry spherical bearing small enough to use in the Fiero's bushings locations, it doesn't look like that's going to work out.

NHBB part numbers ADW10VN or ADW10VNL would be what I'd want to use. The L stands for a difference in liner systems which has no impact on load performance.
This is the "wide" version. I went with it for improved service life and lower contact pressure during impact loading scenarios compared with the narrow version.

Those are sealed spherical bearings.
The unsealed versions end up with 8-10 inch lbs of preload torque, while the sealed versions can have 20 inlbs or more of preload

There's a version with subtle chamfers on the corners of the housing, and it's typically used with snap rings
However, sometimes the V-grooved version--intended for a staked installation--is preferred in order to have better contact with snap rings.

The OD of the bearing is spec'd as: 1.1870-1.1875
So the ID of the bore should be: 1.1873-1.1878
This results in .0002 press to .0008 clearance fit
Some customers go to a .0005 press, although that drives preload torque up (not a big concern for this application)

Catalog available here:
http://nhbb.com/files/catalog_pages/NHB ... g-2014.pdf
My particular part is on page marked 11.
Pgs 52-88/89 cover fairly serious engineering data

Hendrick Motorsports is a customer with whom the engineer had dealt before.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #809, 09-18-2014 12:07 PM