Project MIDTRBO
Topic started by: ALLTRBO, Date: 11-21-2009 09:51 AM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000120.html


ALLTRBO MSG #1, 11-21-2009 09:51 AM
      Here we go...
Project MIDTRBO is well underway, initially I wanted to wait until more details were set before posting my build thread, but mostly my work and health issues have gotten in the way since I've been ready to. Well right now is a good time (for bad reasons). I'm going to start by leading up to where it is now in several segments, then I'll continue on with the current progress as it happens.

As some of you may remember, I bought my '88 GT from RandomTask without a drivetrain in Oct. 2007, and with the intention of some various swap. Unfortunately I was defrauded into believing that it had 22k original miles, but it turns out that it has 122k original miles. Long story short (details belong in, and are in, that thread), I reached a settlement with RandomTask after figuring this out and received a lot of my money back, and decided to go on with the project. While 22k still would have had its benefits, 122k isn't a project killer when I'm going so far into it anyway. Of course this all left a bitter taste in my mouth, but that just prompted me to go even further in making it "my own".

I bought it in some various state of project-ness, as it was intended to have a different swap. Most notably, much of the suspension was rebuilt and powdercoated.
-I'm going to say it now to avoid wrong impressions... I don't care for red, it won't be anywhere close to red when it gets painted, so don't get any ideas-

As it was when I picked it up (though I didn't get the chin spoiler and don't want one)...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-26-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #2, 11-21-2009 10:49 AM
      Some of the parts that were powdercoated...



The rear cradle was also powdercoated, but I later found out that this cradle was from a 170k mile car, not the original. The front cradle was powdercoated as well (as far as I'm aware, it is the original).

These parts were very loosely assembled on the car (I even lost a couple sway bar link parts on the trip home). Here it is in its new home, and how it sat for longer than I like to recall (about a year).



ALLTRBO MSG #3, 11-21-2009 10:50 AM
      So here we are. Hmm, what to do with it now. I would have LOVED to stretch it and install longitudinally my IROC-Z's twin-turbo 350 with a Porsche tranny, but that was a bit too much to handle for the time being, though entirely doable.
One thing was for certain, it was going to remain a manual, as it had come from the factory. I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I had an automatic Fiero. Most likely it was going to stay a Getrag, as all other options require too much time and work for now.

3500 swap? It was at the top of the list for a while. 3400 swap with a turbo and 5-speed? It's a well documented combo in the FWD world, and makes good power for the ~minor boost levels stock 3400 pistons and compression allow. L67 swap? Not a chance. It's not my style. Heavy, crappy sounding, and full of Getrag-shredding torque, even with a turbo instead of the twin-screw. Thinking, thinking...
Before too long other projects were increasingly requiring the garage space, and the one-lane downhill driveway was too much to push the car into and out of to make room. One thing was for certain, despite my chronic health problems that leave me near-useless a lot of the time, I was going have to do something soon. Sell the car? After all this? I wanted to, but couldn't do it! These cars are evil, I swear.

Through sheer force of stubbornness, I still couldn't bring myself to install a stock 2.8/5-speed setup that had become available to me if I wanted it. It just didn't feel right, an '88 Fiero blank-slate with that horrible powerless abomination they call the stock all-iron V6 re-introduced. I like to think that the original 2.8 seizing up (long before I knew of the car) was a sign. Time marches on, this car deserves better now, come hell or high water (heaven forbid).

What came upon me was this possibility... A friend of mine, member Will on here, had snagged up a Turbo Grand Prix (aka TGP) 3.1 V6 and turbo setup from a local junkyard car awhile back, along with a FWD Getrag from another car. $300 for the entire engine and turbo setup and $150 for FWD Getrag, and it would be mine.
Hmm... Ultimately, it's not a powerful engine. Slightly stronger than a normal Gen II, but not at all more powerful before the boost. If I went this way, I knew that the TGP turbo setup would not work with the 5-speed, so I'd have to go custom, almost the same as turbo'ing any random non-turbo Fiero. That could be good for more power, but that Gen II top end is so darn restrictive, and I'd still have to do a custom swap. The benefits are low compression, strong pistons, slightly better internals, turbo oiling system already in place- a decent platform for moderate boost/power.
Thinking, thinking, thinking. Gotta do something... *closes eyes and winces real hard*, screw it. OKAY. TGP 3.1 5-speed with a custom turbo setup it is!
And that's how Project MIDTRBO was born.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-21-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #4, 11-21-2009 12:14 PM
      So...
I'd gone down to Will's place in VA to check out the setup, all looked well. We determined without a doubt that the TGP turbo Y-pipe interfered with the Getrag linkages (FWD or Fiero Getrag, doesn't matter). The TGP T25 turbo was locked up anyway, but who cares, it's tiny junk anyway. I left with all the transaction details worked out and one hell of a motorcycle ride over Thornton Gap in the Blueridge mountains of rural VA. Will was to deliver the goods to me at a later date.

Unfortunately I didn't get pics of the engine and tranny arriving at my house, but it was quite amusing. Will installed a hitch onto his '90 Pontiac 6000 AWD and pulled a medium-sized homemade trailer with the tranny bolted to the engine, strapped down in the middle. It was quite the redneck looking setup!

After unloading it all, more details and plans were thought out. I fabbed a cradle-dolly and we removed the cradle.
I ordered all new poly trans mounts and brackets and a poly front engine mount and adjustable dogbone from Rodney Dickman, and was hoping to use the TGP front engine mount bracket, as it's significantly stronger looking than a stock '88 front mount, which has a tendency to crack. Unfortunately this is what we found out, the FWD mount would not work, even with new holes drilled (note the rust-caused pitting of the 170k mile cradle underneath the powdercoat... I hope it'll be strong enough everywhere)...




So, I ordered a stock '88 front engine mount from the Fiero Factory, and all went well. The bracket looks like this, though that isn't mine and I used the RD poly mount pictured above. If it won't hold up, I'll reinforce it with my fancy new MIG welder and some sheet steel.




The clutch is from Clutchnet and supposedly will hold 450hp according to them. It isn't pictured, but the disk hub springs are encased in the hub unlike the cheap-crap Spec setup that regularly loses its springs in these cars. Will resurfaced an '88 flywheel for me.




After everything arrived and was installed here's what I ended up with...





The green injectors you see are 42 lb/hr, should take everything I can throw at them for now.
A LOT of work still ahead at that point...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-21-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #5, 11-21-2009 01:17 PM
      I'm going to jump over to the suspension for now as this was being worked at the same time as the next few drivetrain steps.

The suspension parts left untouched were the rear strut setups and the front shocks (actually those were missing altogether).
I hope to document in another thread the electrolysis process I used for rust removal, but you can see the results here.

Here are the money shots, the before and after. Obviously the left side was untouched and I de-rusted, POR-15'd, and re-assembled the right side with Koni adjustable's (the other side was then done as well)...






Upper spring perch untouched...




Upper spring perch de-rusted (almost completely at that point, anyway)...



More on this another day, in another thread.


The springs are stock for now because I want this car to handle properly, and very well. When I say that, I mean that if lowering springs (or lowered coilovers) are used without changing some other things, the geometry is negatively affected, I think the roll center. I forget the terms for sure, but you can ask Will if you want clarification on this...
Basically, in the rear suspension the angle at which the the control arms are placed changes when you lower the ride height via the strut assembly. In other words, the cradle mounting points drop while the spindle mounting points stay the same. This is very bad for neutral handling in the 88's. To remedy this, there are only two practical ways to go about it. By installing drop spindles which don't change geometry at all, or by raising the cradle mounting points. There are no available rear drop spindles for this car so that's out for me, which leaves raising the cradle mounting points.

I've heard that someone has done this without even lowering the car and had very very good results (an extremely neutral handling car) because it improves on the original geometry, but the problem is clearance (mainly with the axles). It's tight in there, and I'll need to measure everything once the car is fully put together. I think I'll be able to go up an inch with these mounts which will allow me to lower the rear an inch without affecting the control arm angle at all. I'm all for improving the stock geometry, but I really can't stand how high these things sit stock. I'll be okay with the factory angle and a lower ride height. However, if I can go up 1.5", I either have the option to lower it by 1.5" or leave it at 1" and have an improved angle. I'll hunt down an '88 rear cradle in nicer shape, weld up new mounts then get the whole thing powdercoated, swap cradles then sell this one. Simple.

There are other geometry changes as well, some of which I'm not sure as to the effect. One that makes me wonder is the trailing arm angle and if lowering will cause less pro-squat, resulting in reduced forward traction. I don't think it's as doable to modify that angle, but it may be. Once again, I'll figure out more later. So anyway, that's why I left the stock springs in. I don't ever want to negatively affect the factory handling, I only want to improve where possible and practical.

As for the front springs, he cut them a good bit before I got the car. Totally unacceptable. I acquired another set of stock '88 GT front springs, and they will be used for similar reasons as the rear (geometry changes). I need to research more, but I've read that the new owner of HT Motorsports (Held) is redesigning or has redesigned their '88 front drop spindles. If he works out the issues with the previous design, I'll go that route and lower 1 or 1.5" up there.
More later...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-21-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #6, 11-21-2009 02:59 PM
      It's going to start getting more interesting now, and so an apt time to explain the car's name (if you care to read).

MIDTRBO.
Notice my username of ALLTRBO, that comes from the license plate version (7-letter maximum states) of All Turbo. My 11.9 @ 118mph '96 Talon is named ALLTRBO because it's nothing WITHOUT the turbo (and a play on "All motor"). I use this username because I now have more than one turbo vehicle, and the goal is for all of them to be.
The twin-turbo Camaro, naturally, is TWNTRBO. Now somewhere in between 4 cylinders and 8 cylinders comes 6 cylinders, that's smack dab in the middle of the other two, and also the perfect cylinder count for a Fiero which mine happens to be, and you guessed it, it's a mid-engined car. There you have it, ALLTRBO, MIDTRBO, TWNTRBO, and my tiny-turbo'd motorcycle, SMLTRBO.

Now, the choice was yet to be made, which turbo to use for this car? Upon studying many compressor maps and much more research, I had come to decide on a Garrett T3/T4 based on price, reliability, and availability. I was going to use a T04E compressor housing with either a 60-trim wheel or a 60-1 wheel, and a .82 A/R turbine housing with a "stage III" wheel. I called a few different suppliers for quotes, the last of which was Tim's Turbos in VA and he told me that if I wanted it, he had a custom T3/S258 Borg Warner hybrid turbo that he built for someone who ended up not coming up with the cash, and he'd let it go cheap if I bought it before the end of the year because they were trying to clear out of inventory, and as you may know, the economy had tanked (this was Dec. 27th or thereabouts, 2008). He told me that the original price was $1400 that the guy couldn't pay, so make an offer. I told him I'd call him back. I looked up the specs and really liked what I saw, it was pretty much a great match for this setup whether on low-boost or high, and even with my planned future (REAL) engine build. Rest of the long story short, I took delivery of this $1400 turbo for $850 shipped.

It has a Garrett T3 .82 a/r turbine housing machined to fit the Borg Warner (Bullseye Power is the same thing) S258 turbine wheel and compressor side. Definitely bigger than this setup will need initially, but it isn't too massive.

Here's the compressor map...



If you understand what's going on here, notice the ability of this thing to remain quite efficient at very high pressure ratios. This is because the exducer to inducer ratio is pretty high (a lower 'trim', 44 in this case). One drawback of that is the higher likelyhood of compressor surge, but that's negated by the anti-surge compressor housing. What all this means is that for the size, the compressor can flow a whole lot of air if your setup can handle the higher boost it likes. This is why Bullseye Power/Borg Warner turbos do very well against the competition when in inducer-size (58mm in this case) limited classes of racing.

If you don't know WTH I'm talking about, I'll just say that it'll max out at almost 600whp with the right setup.

Here it is versus the stock TGP T25...







[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-26-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #7, 11-21-2009 03:21 PM
      I think that's all I'm going to post for now, I'm kinda burned out on posting at the moment. There's still quite a bit more to come, along with some changes, before I get to its current state. Stay tuned (and comment if you'd like)...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-21-2009).]

DefEddie (eddie@fullthrottletuning.com) MSG #8, 11-21-2009 05:44 PM
      i'm gearing up to do the same thing on mine.
Haven't started looking at compressor maps or anything yet though.
I'm thinking of doing 3400 heads and lower,3.1 upper(cause I like it) and also upgrading to a T3 flange.
Other than that going stock bottom end (freshened of course).

What are you going to do regarding the alternator location?
I plan to just pull it all apart,and start mounting brackets till I find a way to fit it and the AC.
Hard to believe there is no other spot for it,but i've not started playing yet.
If you have more pics of the mounts etc.. and what you have done,are doing then post em up.

Looking forward to following this thread.


fieroX (rcheney1@cox.net) MSG #9, 11-21-2009 06:15 PM
      couple of things, first off Bullseye turbos are freaking amazing. I love the S362 I have with my 3800. It spools very fast (pulls the front wheels on a good launch). You said something about 600 whp with your setup. Possible, but not likely to happen with a 3.1. I made 548 whp on 24 psi with long tube headers and E85. The 3.1 is a lot less efficient engine, and to make that kind of power you will need 35+ psi, but on the other hand that engine wont be able to process 35 psi of boost, it will just keep stacking pressure inside the intake tract. Something to think about, you may want to consider extensive port work, cam profile, and a custom intake plenums.

Also about that Bullseye turbo. You got a pretty good deal, but Tim is Bullsh1tting you on the price. Those are about $950 retail. Dealer cost is about $650. I am a dealer for them too.

Im not bashing, Im just trying to give you some realism/criticism. I think the turbo is matched well for a 3.1L, but do some research when figuring out what cam profile etc, will work best with your combo. Also what will you be using for exhaust manifolds/headers? The .82 a/r might be a bit much for a 3.1. I am running the .82 a/r T4 turbine on mine. It spools very fast because I have it set up so that the exhaust pulses alternate into the twin scroll turbine housing. Something else you might consider. On a 3.1 something closer to a .70 a/r will be more efficient.

Just some stuff to think about thats all.

Ryan


ALLTRBO MSG #10, 11-21-2009 07:04 PM
      Hold on, hold on. In order.

 
quote
Originally posted by DefEddie:

i'm gearing up to do the same thing on mine.
Haven't started looking at compressor maps or anything yet though.
I'm thinking of doing 3400 heads and lower,3.1 upper(cause I like it) and also upgrading to a T3 flange.
Other than that going stock bottom end (freshened of course).

What are you going to do regarding the alternator location?
I plan to just pull it all apart,and start mounting brackets till I find a way to fit it and the AC.
Hard to believe there is no other spot for it,but i've not started playing yet.
If you have more pics of the mounts etc.. and what you have done,are doing then post em up.

Looking forward to following this thread.

Yeah, I saw that killer deal you got on the TGP, nice score. Are you going to use an auto? That Y-pipe won't fit with a manual as mentioned, but you may be talking about upgrading to a T3 flange on a custom Y-pipe for a manual if so? Either way, a T3 based turbine is a good choice.

The 3.1 upper won't fit on a 3400/3100 lower, not even close. You wouldn't want it to, though, it flows nothing compared to the later stuff. Do upgrade the whole top end, it'll be worth it despite losing the "3.1 Intercooled Turbo" moniker. More on that upgrade here, later (aforementioned changes).

Alternator will be put down low rear of the engine, in the original Fiero area, with a custom bracket. No cutting of the decklid to cause bowing for me, thanks. It'll fit down there just fine, just needs a fab'd setup to get there.
The TGP A/C compressor fits as is, down low in the front.
Unfortunately no more pics of the mounts yet, but there will be eventually.


 
quote
Originally posted by fieroX:

couple of things, first off Bullseye turbos are freaking amazing. I love the S362 I have with my 3800. It spools very fast (pulls the front wheels on a good launch). You said something about 600 whp with your setup. Possible, but not likely to happen with a 3.1. I made 548 whp on 24 psi with long tube headers and E85. The 3.1 is a lot less efficient engine, and to make that kind of power you will need 35+ psi, but on the other hand that engine wont be able to process 35 psi of boost, it will just keep stacking pressure inside the intake tract. Something to think about, you may want to consider extensive port work, cam profile, and a custom intake plenums.

Also about that Bullseye turbo. You got a pretty good deal, but Tim is Bullsh1tting you on the price. Those are about $950 retail. Dealer cost is about $650. I am a dealer for them too.

Im not bashing, Im just trying to give you some realism/criticism. I think the turbo is matched well for a 3.1L, but do some research when figuring out what cam profile etc, will work best with your combo. Also what will you be using for exhaust manifolds/headers? The .82 a/r might be a bit much for a 3.1. I am running the .82 a/r T4 turbine on mine. It spools very fast because I have it set up so that the exhaust pulses alternate into the twin scroll turbine housing. Something else you might consider. On a 3.1 something closer to a .70 a/r will be more efficient.

Just some stuff to think about thats all.

Ryan

Thanks for the insights, however, some slight corrections needed here...
To reiterate, I said "it'll max out at almost 600whp with the right setup.", mine not being even close to that. You are correct, a Gen II 3.1 is not a very efficient engine, nor could this bottom end handle almost 600whp even if I could get the stock TGP top end there.
I haven't gotten to the part in the build yet where I upgraded to a 3400 top end for reason's I'll get into later (trying to stay chronological here), but that is a much much more efficient setup (3400 heads flow better than un-ported 3800 heads). With this, I hope for somewhere around 350whp on 15psi and 93 octane with a good air/water IC, and somewhere around 400whp on 20ish psi with race gas. Once I build the later planned "3200" with a stout bottom end and various other things, I think I could reach 500whp on boost in the upper 20's. I don't plan on ever maxing the turbo out. Sorry for the confusion.

As I mentioned, this S258 had a Garrett T3 exhaust side machined to fit by them, and that raises the price. I don't really agree with how much more it raises the price, but I located a few different places on the internet (I'd have to search again) that offer this service, and theirs are all about $1400 as well, vs. ~$1000 for an out of the box S258. He really didn't want to let it go for that, but he did when I told him I couldn't pay a penny more (The T3/T4's I was looking at were around $700).

The Garrett T3 .82 a/r turbine isn't all that large, not even close to a T4 .82 a/r turbine. On my Talon I have a Garrett T3 .63 a/r turbine for its 2 liter revving to 7500 and it's about right, but could go slightly bigger even. I do think the .82 will do well on the 3.1, and I'll be running it up to at least 6200 (stock 3100 redline).
Despite this, I do admit that the turbine is more of a guessing game than the compressor, and I'll have to wait and see how it performs. If I need to go down to a .63 T3 (the next size down) for some reason, It won't be hard to get one machined for it.

I do thank you for trying to help with a good attitude. Much appreciated.

Oh, and these are (soon) going to be the manifolds, with 1 5/8" primaries. It's not the most efficient design in the world, but they are loads better than some logs I've seen make unexpectedly good power.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-21-2009).]

Mr_jacob7 MSG #11, 11-21-2009 07:47 PM
      Geez! write a book, why don't you?

lol, just messin'.

looks good. following closely, and will offer any advice or answers that you need. just send a PM my way, or whatever.

good luck with the swap!



bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #12, 11-21-2009 08:15 PM
      added to my favorites. I'm very interested to see how this swap pans out. Keep me in the loop.
Dave



ALLTRBO MSG #13, 11-21-2009 08:24 PM
      Now, where is this giant Fiero-inhaling turbo going to sit in there? You might be surprised at how many options are wholly deleted by going up just a couple inches in diameter.

At this point I wasn't sure of the final turbo setup design, and played with a few options including a rear-exit 3400 exhaust manifold setup, hooking the turbo up to an adapter near the trunk wall. Lets see...

TGP manifold (tiny)...



3400 manifold (not as tiny but sucks anyway)...




Will it fit here maybe? No cutting of the trunk for sure! I gotta have a place for all those useful road-side tools required of Fiero ownership, now don't I? Why yes, yes I do. Trunk stays.






Oh wait, we can't have the compressor outlet pointing 3" from the ground right? Rotate it up? Nogo as well, clearance issues and extra heat up there. Besides, this is where I want my uber-cool selectable sport/race exhaust setup to go! Looks like that's out.



Nearer the tranny? No room for an intake pipe. Flip that? no room for the exhaust downpipe. Closer to the Alternator location? Same problems, but over there. Yep, this "rear mount" turbo thing just isn't going to work for me. How about up front where the stock cat goes? No way, this turbo won't fit anywhere near there. Other possibles? Shot down, shot down, shot down.
Well, looks like it's going to have to go where I wanted it to in the first place (Will had a lot to do with the other ideas, heh), right where all the cool boys put it! Above the tranny, coming right out of a custom Y-pipe.
But wait, what's this?...



...That's a throttlebody in the way. No good. I could kink an inlet pipe to make an L while tweaking the turbo location just barely (hah!) or I could... no... Upgrade to a 3400 top end (or 2000+ 3100, same thing) that moves the throttlebody toward the front of the car several inches? Oh the hurt. How could I ever live with myself, upgrading to 40% better flow like that. More power on less boost? Of all the horrible things! Oh darn, I guess there's no other choice!

So that settled it, a planned future upgrade ended up being necessary. Off to the junkyard I went and off I pulled 3400 heads and lower intake (and accessories) from a 2001 Olds Alero, and a 3100 upper intake and throttlebody from a 2002 Malibu. At the time I hadn't known that the only difference in the top ends (aside from the "3100" or "3400" lettering) was that the 3100's all got smaller throttlebodies. 52mm vs. 56mm for the 3400 IIRC. Whoops, oh well, it will be easy to snag a 3400 one later (or a better one, with modifications), and the smaller one might be easier to get a base tune with since it's slightly closer to the 3.1 TB size, I'm using the TGP 3.1 turbo code ($8F) in a '730. Once it's going decent I won't stay with the smaller TB, though.

Pics of that will come later, as it's important to maintain the chronology and I didn't get pics at first.

So now that I had a better top end, there was no way I was going to use the tiny, restrictive TGP exhaust manifolds, even with a custom Y-pipe. Aside from flowing poorly, to match the D-port 3400 heads they'd have to be ported to almost nothing. Custom tubular manifolds it is! I don't really need to post the pic from the last post again I think, but that's what I decided on for a good compromise in flow, simplicity, cost, weight, and space savings. They'll do just fine.

More later, still not here yet...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-27-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #14, 11-21-2009 08:27 PM
      Thanks Jacob, will do. I try to keep the wording to a minimum for all the impatient types, I really do, but I just can't do it!

Sure thing Dave, you will definitely be kept in the loop. As I said, more to come later.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-21-2009).]

RCR (rcrabine@comcast.net) MSG #15, 11-22-2009 09:42 AM
      Great thread..Looking forward to seeing how it turns out.


Just curious...if you've replaced the top end of the 3.1, and the exaust of the 3.1, and the trans of the 3.1, why use the 3.1? Hardened bottem end?

Bob


ALLTRBO MSG #16, 11-22-2009 10:03 AM
      Thanks.

Yep, the bottom end is better, though not a huge amount. The crank is hardened and has rolled fillets and the rods' tolerances are supposed to be tighter as they were hand picked and possibly stronger (barely), but the big improvement is the Mahle pistons. While still hyper eutectic (IIRC), they're stronger all around than any other 'stock' pistons, and have a deeper dish for lower compression as well.
The block is rumored to have a higher nickel content, though I've heard of at least two TGP blocks cracking at the deck because of casting flaws. It's relatively rare, but some Gen II castings are known to do it, TGP's included. Mine actually pulled threads from the head mounting holes with the head studs (DOH) so now it's time-serted (I'll get to that). Basically, I don't have blind faith in the block like some others do, but I'm thinking it'll be fine as most are. I'll keep an eye on it. When I build the really stout bottom end I'll use a Gen III block.

Really, though, as you can see from above, I originally planned on using the whole TGP engine, just with a custom turbo setup. Once I decided to change the top end, it was easier just to use the same block and swap top ends, and I get to keep the low compression which is about 8.75:1 with the Gen III heads. A 3100 has 9.6:1 as it comes, no good for 15-20 psi on this setup.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-22-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #17, 11-22-2009 10:32 AM
      Okay, now that I'm going to have all this power and handling, how do I STOP!!! quickly. The car came with spacers to move the '88 brake calipers out for use with 12" Corvette rotors (less hardware) and with the centering rings originally from sluppy123 if I remember his s/n right, and also came with braided SS brake lines. The original calipers were removed and untouched when I got the car, but they were included.

I ordered 12" Powerslot rotors for the C4 Corvette from Autoanything for the lowest price I could find even before their 15% off discount that day (they have a new discount like, every day). They had them drop-shipped directly from Powerslot, and all was as expected.
I got pricier Powerslot rotors because they're made in the USA (support US!), and I've had more than my share of dealings with cheap crap Chinese rotors. Aside from that, the slotted rotors look cool and aren't prone to cracking under very hard use like some cross-drilled rotors.
Next up were 4 '88 caliper rebuild kits and Porterfield R4-S pads along with Motul Dot 5.1 brake fluid (high temp non-silicone, not to be confused with the silicone DOT 5 that shouldn't be used here). I did lots of research to come up with this combo, then I found out that someone here, I forget who, has this exact brake setup on their '88 and said it is amazing, perfectly balanced and the car will stop like it ran into a pool of peanut butter (my words, not his). I shall see if that's accurate with mine as well.

No pics of it at this point, but there will be soon. The pics exist, just waiting to get to the point that they were taken.


ALLTRBO MSG #18, 11-22-2009 11:01 AM
      So now I have 12" brakes, and 15" wheels that they won't fit under. I have to upgrade. Darn.
Lots of research led me to wheels I really like, and while a tad bit on the heavy side, they look beautiful and can be had for a good price used in good shape if you look around hard enough.
Note: I give partial credit to justa6 here for having these rims on his beautiful GT first, and while I didn't completely get the idea from him, seeing them on his car sold me on them.
Meet the Volkswagen Monte Carlo or Santa Monica (depending on who you ask) wheels that were available on 02-04 Golfs, Jettas, and Beetles. My memory may be slightly off on the years, but close.

Here are the first three I bought from a guy in Hawaii for cheap, and shipping wasn't bad believe it or not. He removed the tire before shipping...



I then found a single wheel from someone else later, for a good price also.
They're 5x100 and 17x7 with a 38mm offset. Not a great offset for the front of an '88, but they'll do. I like the idea of the good '88 scrub-radius stock but I don't think this hurts steering effort all that much. I have an idea to make them look less like they're sticking out up there (though they aren't bad looking anyway).

More research led me to try Yokahama S-drive's for the tires. 235/45 for the rear and 205/50 for the front. I can hardly wait to try shoving them out of their traction zone.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-22-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #19, 11-22-2009 11:26 AM
      A note, throughout this whole thing I've been ordering new and used parts left and right. Some of them I've shown and/or explained, some of them I've yet to.
I still have to find a few more used parts for this project, would anyone mind looking in my WTB thread to see if you might have any?

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/043893.html

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-22-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #20, 11-22-2009 01:36 PM
      Big project directional shift ahead...

...At least WRT the way it's going to be completed. There comes some time in every man's life when he just has to give in, and all that jazz.

I've always been the DIY/built-not-bought type, mostly because half of the fun is completing a project myself but partially because I can't trust anyone to do anything right (at least it's very rare), but this time was different. My chronic health problems have been slowly getting worse and worse (severe sleeping troubles and severe IBS-C are the two main problems, among lesser problems, neither the doctors nor I have figured out what's going on for sure, and yes I've tried almost everything). I hate to keep bringing that up, and I'm not looking for sympathy, it's just that these problems infiltrate every second of my life. I have to follow a strict schedule or I spiral out of control, and even when I do follow a strict schedule I still am about 1/2 the person I should be.

Often I'm in so much pain or so out of whack mentally from a violent night's "sleep" and/or from being 'backed-up' that I can't go to work or do anything around the house, and have to now make up my time at work because I'm constantly at a no-leave balance, or just have to work longer hours because I'm very slow on certain days and can't rightfully count them as a full 8-hours, and every day I spend at least 1/2 hour in the bathroom at work on top the ~2.5 hours I have to spend in the bathroom at home every single morning and the ~1 hour every evening (If I don't, I can't go at all even though I take two laxatives every day, and then I'll spiral out of control). On top of that I have various doctors appointments to go to often on Saturdays, Mass on Sundays, and drive to work about 6 days/wk to get just 40 hours in.

One of my problems makes the other worse, and the other makes the one worse. I like typing more than talking as I can gather my sometimes very muddled thoughts more collectively and coherently in written words because I can go back over them several times before I hit 'submit'. Work is priority 1 (After Mass but that's only 1 hr/wk) because, while my wife works and makes reasonable money also, we still couldn't afford to pay the bills if we didn't both work.
Again, I'm not looking for sympathy and I hope that wasn't TMI, I'm just trying to express how much this affects me, and how it ties in to this project that I so very much want, and need, to drive (not just the beater truck or motorcycle)

So, this summer came the turning point. Will had been helping me on some of this throughout the months it took me to get to that point in the story and he was leaving soon for the desert for a year with his new Naval Reserve unit (God speed!), and I was about to switch companies.
I work for NASA as a contractor Electronics Technician, and how it works there is that we pretty much move from company to company as the projects change and new contract are awarded, or as the contracts and end are re-awarded to someone else. Most of the actual design and labor is completed in this way, civil servants are increasingly more managerial or administrative only.
At this time the last project I was working on had been finished, the Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO), and I was offered a job with a new company to work on two new satellite projects simultaneously (GPM and MMS) which I accepted. This was great, and not so great. It provided a very healthy pay raise and job security for a few more years, but at the same time meant that I had to work even harder to get the job done, I had to move to the work lifestyle posted above. This meant that there was no way I was going to be able to complete this thing in any reasonable amount of time, and I also had (and still have) other cars to get fixed and driving, or gotten rid of.

Coincidentally, there was a certain german car guru who also likes Fieros that opened up a portion of his repair shop recent to this to build some bad-arse Fieros. This particular guru also happened to be in New Jersey, which is on the same side of the country as I am, and isn't that far away. On top of that, this crazy fella with a crazy birdy-flipping wife ( ) that I had met a couple times before, just happens to be an OCD perfectionist like I am.
So as some of you already know, after several PM's back and forth it was decided that the bmwguru himself, Dave (along with his team of Fiero nuts), was going to be completing my project for me (almost completely completing, I'll get to that later) at the Haus of Guru. You may or may not have any idea how humbling that was for me, but it is what it is, and Dave will do (and is doing) a great job.

I'm still not to the point where we are now, but getting close. More later...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-22-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #21, 11-22-2009 02:04 PM
      Wow, that's a lot to read. If you don't care to, just read the first bit and the last paragraph and that'll tell you what the shift is. The rest is why, heh.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-22-2009).]

DefEddie (eddie@fullthrottletuning.com) MSG #22, 11-22-2009 02:22 PM
      Keep the long post's coming,I love to read and have hours upon hours of reading in this forum.
I tend to ramble on about different thoughts in threads.
This comes from two things,one being like you said-typing helps me sort out my mind and get thoughts out.
Also it drives me crazy when i'm reading through posts and archives that people didn't get more information or clarify small stuff that sometimes seem's inconseqential to that subject (but might apply elsewhere).

Sorry to hear about the health problems,don't feel bad about getting it out though.
Helps to clarfiy what might seem like odd decisions to others.
I do some odd things in odd manners also,that some people say "WTF?".
But like you I also have home dynamics that have a larger impact than some.
I have a severly disabled 8yo that is nonambulatory,blind,nonspeaking etc.. that spends most of her time in bed on an IV.
On top of the issues that come with that,I also have a 4yo son born with no fingers/toes that just started school.
My dad left when I was young,adopted by another then left again-so words can't really describe how important his wellbeing and direction mean to me.
Like you I also spend ALOT of time with church activities,teaching a financial class and volunteering- not to mention secondary education for projects i'm involved with (emergency response,communications,local FEMA stuff).
And even taking my 8yo nephew to boy scout stuff (two fathers left him also. )
I try to do all this and play with various projects while working full time as a driveability/electrical tech at the local Ford dealer,part time manager at Autozone and side business tuning PCM's sometimes.

Sorry I had to get that all out too,actually feels pretty good.
I'm trying to say your not alone dude,just gotta take it one day at a time.
When I get frustrated,I just thank jesus for giving me the patience and skills for whatever i'm doing at the time.
It calms me down enough usually to get past the inevitable frustration at life sometimes.

Stick to it,your helping keep others on track with your persistance.

Def


ALLTRBO MSG #23, 11-22-2009 06:18 PM
      Good to know some like the wordy posts (I am one). I agree, some people leave out lots of information in the name of getting it posted real quick (I think).

Wow, sounds like you have a lot going on, I wish you all the best and I'm sure those that love you are thankful for you from the sounds of it.

I do hope I can help keep others on track but that's giving me too much credit, I'm just trying to share my build, as I know I've enjoyed learning from many many others that I've read.

If anyone else wants to join this special episode of "As the Turbo Spools" go right ahead and post in here, I don't mind at all.

Okay, back to the build. We're going to make progress now!...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-22-2009).]

Mr_jacob7 MSG #24, 11-22-2009 06:22 PM
      i can't wait to see it. the things going to be smoking fast. it already is with the stock turbo, so, y'know...



ALLTRBO MSG #25, 11-22-2009 06:29 PM
      Mr_jacob, one thing I've learned from the various cars I've modded is that mine never got faster, everyone else's just got slower.
"Fast" really is relative. I progressively went from 15 seconds to 11 seconds in my Talon and it only seemed faster after each mod for about a week, then I needed more again. With every car new I smoked, I was thinking "Man, that thing is slow".

What does this all mean? I need to make my Fiero faster than my Talon, that's what!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-22-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #26, 11-22-2009 07:03 PM
      So the date was set for Joey (Dave's wife) to come pick up MIDTRBO with her blingin' new Ford semi-truck (at least it's about as big as one), about a month or so from then IIRC. I had to get crackin' on it just to get it onto a trailer.

First off was finding the correct hardware for the rear suspension in my pile 'o parts, the previous owner slapped a bunch of random bolts in it to keep it from falling off when I picked it up (another detail he failed to mention beforehand) so I had to order some of the correct hardware and find the rest used. I finally had everything sorted out, then I had to complete the other side strut ass'y with the rust removal, POR-15, and Koni, I hadn't actually done that until this point. Once that was back together I bolted all the suspension back onto the car, and next up was the new wheels and tires.

Since I was going to have him finish the 12" brake upgrade and the 15" wheels had bald tires anyway (those 5-star 15's you can see on the front in the rear-up shot earlier were the only others I had, I sold the gold lace wheels with the last Fiero I think I'll ever sell, haha), I needed to install the new tires on the VW wheels. I had previously spent a lot of time polishing up the VW wheels because they didn't look perfect when I got them, and while still not perfect, they are now very acceptable looking.

I took my trusty old beater '90 Chevy 1500 (I REALLY hate driving that thing unless I'm using it for its intended purpose) to the NASA tech center with my wheels and tires loaded up in the back, then proceeded to mount and balance all the tires. One of the rears took way more weight to balance than I like but rather than dismounting and using the fancy features of the top-o-the line computer balancer with road force measurements (it is NASA afterall, hehe) to determine which part of the assembly was the problem (wheel runout? Tire out of round? etc. etc.), or even just doing the old-fashioned rotate-the-tire-180*-on-the-wheel trick, I just left it balanced with lots of weights because I had no time left that day. Those rears were a PAIN to install, the sidewalls are low, they're wider than the wheels, and those have sidewalls as stiff as I've seen. They wouldn't even rotate on the wheel without having one bead entirely removed.
I'm hoping it'll be fine when it comes time to drive it back home from New Jersey so I can deal with it then. It should be okay, but I don't ultimately want okay, I want perfect. Tires aren't something to toy with in my opinion.

I also had to order a full set of Fiero lugnuts since I had none because the 15" wheels use the other style lug (I forget the name), and because I want to use Fiero (any older GM, really) black lugnut caps on these. I don't need those yet, however, but will order them when the car gets home so I don't lose them in the meantime. I also will order two more VW centercaps since two were missing, and will put Fiero decals over those.

Here was the result (better pics soon)...



P.P. I don't have that motorcycle anymore, but a fire-breathing 200hp 450lb monster that'll pull the front wheel from a roll in third at 130mph! 9.9 @ 150 in the 1/4, a 2008 ZX-10R. Then I have the little 750 turbo project that'll make the same power when I'm done with that (after the Fiero at least).

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-22-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #27, 11-22-2009 07:36 PM
      Time was getting shorter, the date fast approaching. I had to clean the hell out of the garage and label and pack all of the parts I had that needed to go with it, stuff them in the Fiero, then come up with a series of base tune chips for Dave to try (in order) when the time comes to start it up. I ended up with a few different combos, one of which should work should the others fail, providing the wiring and mechanical's are proper.

Around this time TLG auto (member Oslo) came out with a product that I thought I'd try, a set of low-rise wingstands. They require finishing touches and minor mods to look GREAT rather than just good IMO, but I ordered them up real quick and installed them so I could snag pics before the car left.

Here are the pics of those installed. Note the Fiero lacking a passenger seat and packed with Fiero junk, hehe.





[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-09-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #28, 11-22-2009 08:23 PM
      The day was finally here. Joey and her sidekick Shawn (one of Dave's Fiero loving employees, also working on it) were fortunately late, because I wasn't ready until they arrived, haha.

I'll try to keep the long story short. This whole time I was filled with a rush-rush anxiety that I shouldn't have been, it was a bad day for that.
My driveway is a mild S-curve uphill, Joey couldn't get the trailer backed up it with the massive Ford, we tried to 'hoist' it into position and failed, so ultimately I had to go get my trusty ol' beater Chevy and back the trailer up the grassy area with it. Chevy 1, Ford 0, haha. If you'll remember the car had no brakes (not even the parking brake) so down-and-up-and-down onto the trailer was hard, then while being strapped down MIDTRBO almost ran over and killed Joey , fortunately Shawn was there to save the day preventing certain death while I was la-la-ing around taking these pictures at that very moment.
MIDTRBO got strapped down, I pulled it down the street, we traded trucks, and they were off into the sunset (not really, it was early summer afternoon and they were headed north, but it sounded good, didn't it?)

How many Fiero nuts does it take to load one onto a trailer without killing anybody? Exactly 3. Barely.

(Shawn strapping it down, my Chevy in front, the Ford on the side. )








Joey and Shawn on the left, my wife Christine on the right. TWNTRBO in the background parked on the street...



My favorite side shot (the car in reality anyway), I love the wing location in this pic. Unfortunately the brakes are still missing, I'll have to have Dave get us a pic of them sitting behind the wheels now that they're fully installed.



The rest of the story continues for me only in pictures for awhile. I feel like you guys now. Well, maybe not.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-22-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #29, 11-22-2009 08:34 PM
      I'm going to have to stop here for tonight and I'm not sure when I can post again, but I still have to get you all up to snuff with what Dave has done so far (quite a bit, he's a lot faster than I am!). In the meantime you can see some of it in his Haus of Guru thread if you haven't already.
Comments still welcome.

To offset all the RED RED RED (gosh, I can't stand red, but no offense if you like it.), I leave you with a simple photoshop. Goodnight Fiero friends...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-22-2009).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #30, 11-22-2009 10:13 PM
      My opinion of the paint is to flow with the body line like I did on my orange and black GT. It really makes the car look more aggressive. I'll put together the pics I have and get them to you. Once we receive the custom pushrods, I'll be making more progress on the build. I'm kinda stuck in the meantime.
Dave


Mr_jacob7 MSG #31, 11-23-2009 06:44 AM
      i like it. ;]



ALLTRBO MSG #32, 11-23-2009 11:39 AM
      Dave, I've thought about that but I really like the beltline as the divider, it's a perfect visual separator IMO. I am also set on the blue going up top and I don't want to take away any of what will be that beautiful color (photoshop not exact shade, but similar). Yours does look good, though.

Mr_jacob, you mean the future paint scheme?


PhantomMs1 (bs_dillon87@hotmail.com) MSG #33, 11-24-2009 10:23 AM
      bmwguru and ALLTRBO,
Keep us updated, I for one like the lengthy posts. As mentioned before alot of times details are left out, I might not understand everything (I.E. compressor mapping) but I do like how you sum everything up at the end for us who don't understand. to go along with your lengthy posts, don't forget pictures. WE LOVE PICTURES

keep up the great work!

[This message has been edited by PhantomMs1 (edited 11-24-2009).]

mtownfiero (andrewj592@aol.com) MSG #34, 11-26-2009 01:18 AM
      bump. Any progress?

Mr_jacob7 MSG #35, 11-26-2009 10:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Mr_jacob, you mean the future paint scheme?


Yes. It looks real tough, and I like blues.



ALLTRBO MSG #36, 11-26-2009 11:20 AM
      I have time to post another segment of progress but then I need to head off to work to make up more time.

Okay, Dave now had the car, Joey and Shawn made it back without it rolling down the highway and killing someone. A big plus.
He pulled all of my loose parts out of the car and labeled them (probably more individually than I did I guess) and set them near the car. Now it was all ready and set up in it's new temporary pseudo-German home.

First up, brakes and front suspension.

One of the Powerslot Corvette rotors, freshly re-drilled to 5x100. I had included one stock '88 rotor for the template...




The cradle assembly pulled back down to get ready for more work...




The front suspension is completely put back together in these next pics. I hadn't touched the front since I bought it, but now it's better than new. I had Dave ditch the poly sway bar links altogether and install Rodney Dickman's zero-lash end links (for the rear too). Apparently the sway-bar inner mounts were stock-rubber still so I ordered some poly mounts for him to install, but the company had them incorrectly listed as 84-88 mounts when they were really 84-87 mounts so they wouldn't fit. Dave took care of getting the right ones and installed them. He installed the Koni struts, swapped out the cut springs for the stock 88 springs, and tightened up everything else to factory specs. The steering was gone over as well. The car will get a full 4-wheel performance alignment to my specs once it's able to drive onto the alignment rack.






The new brake rotors sat behind the new wheels while the calipers were sent off to be powdercoated...



The calipers had been returned from the powdercoaters. I chose silver because it goes with everything and looks good. I'd like them to be the same color the top of my car will be, but there is no powdercoat that will match that Candy so they'll have to be painted over if I ever decide on that. For now silver is great, and is a massive improvement over the nasty old used condition they were in...




The brakes are now complete (less parking brake) with the re-drilled rotors, centering rings, caliper spacer brackets, rebuilt calipers, braided lines, and filled with the Motul fluid.

More prior updates later.

Have a happy Thanksgiving everybody!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-26-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #37, 11-26-2009 11:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Mr_jacob7:
Yes. It looks real tough, and I like blues.

You beat me to the last posting...
Cool, glad you like it and I agree.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-26-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #38, 11-26-2009 08:24 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by PhantomMs1:

bmwguru and ALLTRBO,
Keep us updated, I for one like the lengthy posts. As mentioned before alot of times details are left out, I might not understand everything (I.E. compressor mapping) but I do like how you sum everything up at the end for us who don't understand. to go along with your lengthy posts, don't forget pictures. WE LOVE PICTURES

keep up the great work!


Sure thing. Everyone here loves pics of this stuff, very true. Unfortunately I didn't get as many pics as I would have liked to when I still had it, but there will be many more to come, I promise.

They say a picture is worth a thousand words... In that case I really should have taken more, that would have saved me a lot of typing!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-26-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #39, 11-26-2009 08:38 PM
      One last teaser pic for tonight...



mtownfiero (andrewj592@aol.com) MSG #40, 11-26-2009 11:42 PM
      3x00 heads? The only way i know how to tell is the D shaped exhaust port but i cant see in the pic though.

ALLTRBO MSG #41, 11-27-2009 06:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mtownfiero:

3x00 heads? The only way i know how to tell is the D shaped exhaust port but i cant see in the pic though.

Yep, the 3400 heads that I pulled from a 2001 Olds Alero in the junkyard (2000+ 3100 heads are identical as well).

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-27-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #42, 11-27-2009 07:03 PM
      Special note:

I want to say this here since it was too easy for it to get buried in the other thread:
To everyone who directly and indirectly contributed to Tyler's Toy; Thank you for your amazing efforts and thank you for making not only him smile a lot, but me as well. I'm still baffled that everything came together so quickly to make his dream a reality. You all have my sincerest respect for what you've done.

Now on that note... I apologize for starting my build thread on Tyler's build day, I had no idea about any of it until after I posted this thread. Now, of course, just because it was his build weekend doesn't mean that the rest of PFF should have shut down, but if I had known I would have waited a little longer so as to not possibly detract from the moment at all. It's not like I didn't wait a year or two as it is, what's another couple of weeks? If I had been thinking clearer I would have posted this earlier as well.

Thanks again, all of you.


ALLTRBO MSG #43, 11-27-2009 08:09 PM
      Dave sent off the 3400 heads to the machine shop near his shop to be rebuilt. They are now about as good as new. Unfortunately they had to shave them down some. I didn't really want that done, but slightly higher compression is better than a leaky engine.
Dave, you said the chambers CC'd between 28 and 28.5. I'd like more clarification on that. Do you have individual chamber measurements? Can you list them?

I didn't want the valve springs upgraded because they are only being pushed by a stock cam and I won't rev it real high, I'll save that for the real engine. For now these should be great, even with boost. If not, I'll upgrade.

Here they are all newish and sexy-like...



[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-27-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #44, 11-27-2009 08:22 PM
      Here's the TGP LG5 in its original form one last time before it got all butchered up... then made better.



Carbon and oil buildup: yummy.



The cylinders still have the cross-hatch as you can see in cylinders 1 and 3. That was a good thing to see considering that I have no idea of the mileage. I only know that Will pulled it all from a wrecked TGP in a local JY and forgot to check the mileage, or forgot what it was (I forget). *DOH*
They don't look like much, but those are the strongest pistons that have ever come in a GM 60-degree V6.
This engine will get full synthetic for the rest of its life, over time it should clean away the oil buildup. Lots of oil/filter changes ahead!

A side note: typically you don't want to switch to synthetic on a high mileage engine because it cleans the sludge buildup out and can "cause" oil leaks from the gaskets. It technically doesn't cause a leak, it just un-plugs the buildup around the gaskets that are keeping the old, hard gasket from letting the oil through. With this engine all of the seals and gaskets are being replaced so I won't have that problem. IMHO, synthetic is a must for longevity with a high-performance turbo vehicle which is driven as such.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-27-2009).]

ALLTRBO MSG #45, 11-28-2009 10:58 AM
      I just remembered that I had taken lifter valley reference pics of the Alero 3400 in the junkyard when I was pulling the heads. Unfortunately I only had my cell phone camera so the quality is poor, but I think they might be worth posting here...













ALLTRBO MSG #46, 11-28-2009 11:13 AM
      Also, here's a pic of how messy my garage was before I got the car ready to send out. You can see various Fiero parts and the 3100 intake and valve covers, and the TGP 3.1 upper intake (upside down) as well.



We're closing in on the home stretch of prior-to-this-thread updates, but there are a few more. Maybe once I continue on with current progress this build will garner more interest? It seems to be relatively dead aside from my posts (thank you to those who have posted so far).

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-28-2009).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #47, 11-28-2009 12:12 PM
      I'll be sure to keep taking pics as we are working on it for you. It will get really interesting when we are fabricating the "cool" parts
Dave


TiredGXP MSG #48, 11-28-2009 12:31 PM
      Nice project, I'll be following along....

One request - when you get around to measiuring the pushrod length for the gen 3 heads on a gen 2 block, please post them up!

Cheers


ALLTRBO MSG #49, 11-28-2009 12:46 PM
      They have been measured, but the values don't necessarily mean anything to any other engine. Differences like how much the heads were shaved, gasket thicknesses, and factory tolerances among a few other potential differences like rocker arm ratio etc. render them useless to someone else's Gen II/III. A few people on 60degreeV6.com have posted their specs but they were each different, and different than mine are as well.

For reference, mine were:
Intake - 5.875"
Exhaust - 6.200"


TiredGXP MSG #50, 11-28-2009 01:46 PM
      Thanks for that.

I realize that head shaving/block decking... will change the requirements for specific engines. I've been considering scrapping my iron heads and doing a gen 3 top swap too. This gives me a ball park for the pushrod measuement tool(s) I'll need.

Cheers


ALLTRBO MSG #51, 11-28-2009 02:44 PM
      Gotcha, no problem.

DefEddie (eddie@fullthrottletuning.com) MSG #52, 11-29-2009 11:52 AM
      IIRC i've read the TGP block also has .010" more deck height than stockers also.
I'll look for,and edit in the article I read it in as soon as I find where I bookmarked it (and which pc I did it on.)


PhantomMs1 (bs_dillon87@hotmail.com) MSG #53, 12-10-2009 10:30 AM
      bump: updates?

ALLTRBO MSG #54, 12-11-2009 12:16 PM
      There are more, but I'm having a very busy time lately. I'll get back to the updates as soon as I'm able.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 12-11-2009).]

av8fiero (crmikulski@gmail.com) MSG #55, 12-12-2009 07:05 PM
      Are you going to be using roller lifters in your build? or will you need to use a flat tappet cam? From looking at your pics of the lifter valleys it doesn't look to be possible to mount the factory lifter retainers and I also can't determine from the pics if the lifter bores are even long enough to properly support the factory roller lifters. I know the tgp block is a high nickel block, but if you can't use a roller cam is it still the best option? Just how much boost are you planning to run? Unless you're planning some outrageous boost levels couldn't you make the 3x00 block live and gain the benefits of the roller cam? Will the forged tgp crank drop in the 3x00 block? I know going that route wouldn't retain much of the tgp engine but if the 3x00 block has enough strength for your boost levels wouldn't it be worth it so you could go with a roller cam and all its benefits?



ALLTRBO MSG #56, 12-12-2009 08:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:
<snip>but the big improvement is the Mahle pistons. While still hyper eutectic (IIRC), they're stronger all around than any other 'stock' pistons, and have a deeper dish for lower compression as well.

<snip> When I build the really stout bottom end I'll use a Gen III block.

<snip>Really, though, as you can see from above, I originally planned on using the whole TGP engine, just with a custom turbo setup. Once I decided to change the top end, it was easier just to use the same block and swap top ends, and I get to keep the low compression which is about 8.75:1 with the Gen III heads. A 3100 has 9.6:1 as it comes, no good for 15-20 psi on this setup.





ALLTRBO MSG #57, 12-12-2009 09:06 PM
      Clarification on a few specific questions...

It is possible to adapt the roller lifter setup to the Gen II but to me its not worth the trouble when I'll be upgrading the whole thing before too long, so with the engine I'll be using the TGP flat tappet cam with the Gen III roller fulcrum rockers (1.6:1 instead of TGP 1.5:1 stamped rockers) which means there is some improvement in lift and rocker construction. It should work just fine for now.

Yes, the TGP crank is directly compatible with Gen III cranks from what I've read everyhwhere.

If I have typos or don't make sense, I apologize, the doc has me doped up on about 5 different meds right now and I can't see straight or still and my head is whacky. In fact, it took me about 30 minutes to post this.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-09-2010).]

PhantomMs1 (bs_dillon87@hotmail.com) MSG #58, 01-06-2010 11:43 AM
      :bump:

ALLTRBO MSG #59, 01-09-2010 12:56 PM
      I've been waiting for clarification on a few things which I should find out soon, so I'll continue.

I had left the chronology with the block being stripped of its top end. Here are the head bolt holes being cleaned.





ARP head studs were installed. With moderate boost I don't want to play with blown gaskets all the time, and if I let that happen, then how could I burn a hole in some pistons and have an excuse to build the 'real' engine? Besides, these will transfer over to a Gen III block just the same, so its well-spent money.





At this point, the heads were installed then two of the bolt holes stripped out upon torquing! I have a few theories as to why that happened, but its neither here nor there because something had to be done about it. I had Dave install time-serts throughout. You know, if I really wanted a time-serted block I would have swapped in a Northstar!
Ah well. Stronger is better, and with these, stronger it is.
The piston tops were cleaned of their carbon as well.



Finally, it's starting to look like something cool! I had Dave paint the tranny low-gloss black, and the aluminum 3400 heads are dead-sexy. Eat your heart out, 3800SC swappers!





The heads were torqued to the recommended 71 ft/lbs, though I might think about increasing that to 80 when I retorque them after 500 miles. The head gaskets are Fel-Pro "Severe Duty" 3100 gaskets, .065" thick (pre-installed, I'll need to figure out a good way to get a compressed thickness measurement). Dave also installed a new timing chain and front-cover gaskets.

Looking a bit better now here, too...



This is the most current as far as the pictures go.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-09-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #60, 01-09-2010 01:27 PM
      MOST CURRENT PROGRESS POST, AS OF TODAY...

Next, Dave measured for the pushrods with a Comp-Cams pushrod checker, and forwarded me the specs (previously mentioned) so I could order the custom-length pushrods through WOT Tech.
And the most current progress is this: The pushrods don't fit! They are in fact the length that he forwarded to me, so no foul on WOT Tech's part (Actually I can't say enough good things about Ben's little 60*V6 business so far).
Dave and crew are baffled by this, as the pushrod checker had fit perfectly with those measurements. He's thinking that maybe the lifters collapsed, but it doesn't make sense as to why that would happen in a few weeks time, when the engine sat for years without being ran at all. I don't have any idea, but this coming week he's going to diagnose the problem.

Also, he plans to start on the 'really' cool parts this coming week, the turbo headers! I tossed about between mild steel and stainless. Mild is less prone to cracking than the common 304 grade of SS, but 321 SS is much better in this regard, and will last much longer. I found someone who makes Gen III header flanges in SS, but won't do 321. With the thermal-cycling this will be going through I won't accept 304 SS, so mild steel it is. I ordered (and Dave has received) 3/8" thick mild steel flanges from WOT Tech. I would have preferred 1/2" thick flanges as the other guy would have made them, but the ARP header studs won't accommodate that thickness.

The entire hot-side will be ceramic coated inside and out, that's necessary for this type of setup IMO because of the reduced thermal stresses all around. Unfortunately the mild steel will still eventually rust through the ceramic coating, but not nearly to the degree it would if left bare.

The tubing wall thickness will be a minimum of .065", thicker is better. That hasn't been ordered yet. More fun stuff to come...

(finally you're all caught up now)


bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #61, 01-09-2010 01:43 PM
      I'll be looking into the pushrod issue within the next 48 hours. It is not like they are a few thousandths off, they are more like 1/8" too short. I'll figure it out...just need a few quiet minutes to see what had happened with the measurement. I'm very excited to see this project take to life and I'm glad Alltrbo let me be a part of it.
Dave


Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #62, 01-10-2010 10:10 AM
      I love your engine-uity on getting this stuff to work together! I've been watching with interest from the beginning, and look forward to seeing it done. Keep the pics coming. -Jason

ALLTRBO MSG #63, 01-11-2010 11:58 AM
      Dave, thanks and I'm glad you decided to be a part of it!

Jason, thanks. I only hope I turn out to be a decent systems engine-eer. I'll definitely keep going with this thread, though updates will probably continue to be sporadic.


As a side note; I haven't mentioned much about the body or interior yet, but I'll be giving a personalized treatment to those also, with parts I already have and parts I will acquire. In due time...


ALLTRBO MSG #64, 01-12-2010 02:08 PM
      Home sick again , and the truck broke down to boot. (Darnit, I need a turbo Fiero to drive)
So... Here's another PS. This is based on SOULCRUSHER's awesome GT, with a few tweaks and a color change of course. I ran out of patience in trying to find a pic of the proper wheels at that angle, so I left his on there.
I do the color changes "manually" because I actually use Paint Shop Pro 9 instead of Photoshop, this takes forever.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-12-2010).]

gt7 (gt7@juno.com) MSG #65, 01-12-2010 10:00 PM
      Your build is coming along really well, as well as being pretty unique. I'm really enjoying reading along. Keep up the good updates.



x-thumpr-x (xthumprx@fieronut.me) MSG #66, 01-12-2010 10:55 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:





I'm liking that colour scheme, if you could make the top a deep cherry red colour, I'd know how I'd like to paint mine then one day



ALLTRBO MSG #67, 01-21-2010 09:35 PM
      Tom , thanks again.

x-thumpr-x, I'm almost finished with your indirect request. However, my computer had crashed and lost the right color so I'm going to have to match that up, and it will take some time. Life is incredibly busy for the time being.

As for MIDTRBO, stay tuned. Very awesome things are happening right now.


ALLTRBO MSG #68, 01-23-2010 04:12 PM
      During this brief intermission I've been thinking out loud via Paint Shop Pro 9.
Hmm...



(see this thread for more)
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/079294.html

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-24-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #69, 01-24-2010 09:39 PM
      Just thought I'd show where the top color is coming from. I've wanted a ZX-10R since they came out, and back in August this brand new Candy Plasma Blue one with a steep discount sealed the deal!

It's slightly modded now, and I don't think I'll EVER own anything so insanely fast beyond this. MIDTRBO will be close though (yeah right). To put it into perspective, FieroX can't keep up in the 1/4 mile (even with the bike on stock tires) and this will easily outhandle his car, especially with his drag slicks installed.
This bike makes 60 MORE horsepower (200hp) than a stock V6 Fiero, and weighs only 1/6th as much as one!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-24-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #70, 01-26-2010 08:52 PM
      Needed: Good source of 60*V6 flat tappet lifters (ie: NOT made in China junk). Companies are giving me the runaround so far. Any leads?

Note: This has not impeded on further progress. Moderate fabrication, minor surgery. Pics soon.


ALLTRBO MSG #71, 01-29-2010 09:42 PM
      I bought the lifters from Crane Cams. Hopefully they're as quality as they claim.
I'm waiting on the rest of the pictures from Dave, then I'll post them all up.

I'm very torn open inside right now, being ripped apart from the opposing internal forces. I have too many irons in the fire, but I want to keep them there! Have a looksee if you haven't. I just added more pics.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/071622.html


ALLTRBO MSG #72, 01-31-2010 10:09 PM
      Man, you guys really don't care unless there are PICS, huh? Okay, I'll give in... Unfortunately it took me forever to save and resize all of the pics and it's way past bedtime, and I have work tomorrow. So, I can only leave you with this for now:



Here's what came out of the engine. If you look closely you can see that the plungers aren't even touching the retaining clips, they should be because of the internal springs. This is caused by either really worn internal springs (collapsed) or lots of crud gunking them up too much to move freely. Either way, no good, and I won't use them. It's weird, Dave had taken the pushrod measurements on all cylinders and they were all consistent. Then, as mentioned, he got the pushrods and noticed his measurements were way off. This is why. Since I ordered the new lifters (should be there tomorrow), everything internally should be buttoned up soon. Hopefully his first measurements were accurate to good lifters, and they'll be the correct ones. If not, new pushrods will have to be ordered again.

This and a few other issues are putting the overall integrity of the shortblock in question, hopefully it'll run just fine, with these new parts. If not, I have a backup plan for another "throwaway" shortblock until I build my serious shortblock, in which case no TGP parts will be left. Lets hope it doesn't come to that, yet.

More pics to come, the hot-side of the turbo setup is nearly complete. Good night...


ALLTRBO MSG #73, 02-02-2010 08:07 PM
      Too tired for words, very very busy and painful week. If any questions, they'll be answered before long.













































Obviously not finished yet...




bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #74, 02-02-2010 09:13 PM
      These were the initial -mock up- stage of the logs. We remade the intake manifold to clear the strut towers. I think Steven will print the pic and roll around naked on top of it....Just Kidding.....it came out that good!
More pics will be emailed tomorrow. The logs, Y-pipe, wastegate, low mount alternator and intake are completed and exhaust is ready to be sent to Jet Hot. Not too shabby for 14 hours at the Haus today.
Dave



mtownfiero (andrewj592@aol.com) MSG #75, 02-02-2010 09:25 PM
      Nice looking setup on the mainifolds so far, Is the intake going to stay facing that way?

[This message has been edited by mtownfiero (edited 02-02-2010).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #76, 02-02-2010 09:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mtownfiero:

Nice looking setup on the mainifolds so far, Is the intake going to stay facing that way?



Yes, we turned the intake around and had to cut the neck off and reweld it to give it a different angle (not pictured yet). You have to do a double take on the intake to be able to tell that it was ever touched. Now the intercooler setup will be able to be made the way Alltrbo has specifies.


bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #77, 02-03-2010 08:25 AM
      Here are the finished intake pics.





It now allows the throttle body to bolt up without interference. It is hard to tell that the egr system has been removed and filled, the intake was cut and TIG welded back together.
Dave


ALLTRBO MSG #78, 02-03-2010 12:50 PM
      Heck, I can't even tell that the location moved at all.

Does it have enough clearance to account for engine movement? Unless I'm thinking bass-ackwards, the engine tries to rotate toward the rear of the car under launch/acceleration/shifting (I know it's not exactly an L98 with flimsy rubber mounts, but it will still move).
In addition, is there enough clearance still for a 2.5" i.d. silicone coupling (they're thick) to a 2.5" o.d. IC pipe (without a severe bend)?
One thing you can't account for right now is a larger throttlebody (62mm i.d. max), but if the body is slightly larger, would there be enough room still?

Just some concerns from looking at it. If you've thought all that through then move along, I don't want to hold you up!
Other than that, I do think it'll look perfect with a black crinkle powdercoated finish, topped with blue numbers/letters (eventually).

As a quick note to everyone: I originally wanted the intake to be turned around when I first conceived the Gen III top end swap, but quickly figured out the strut tower clearance issues. Knowing that I personally can't even begin to comprehend welding cast aluminum with my MIG setup (even with my spool-gun) , I threw the idea out and didn't even think about mentioning it to Dave. When he saw firsthand how tight the turbo would be with the TB on the same side, he asked about turning it around. Well needless to say, his welding guy had no problem with it, so there it is. Providing that it has all the clearance it'll ever need, that is perfect!

Still more explanation about the rest of it later, I need to get back to work.

P.S. Since the car will be using a '730 ECU, it won't be SFI (Sequential Fuel Injection) anymore, so I hereby designate SFI as Single Forced Induction (until I, or you folks, can think of something better. )

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 02-03-2010).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #79, 02-03-2010 02:00 PM
      yes, it is noticible difference when the intake is installed in the car. There is adequate clearance for what we need to do.

ALLTRBO MSG #80, 02-03-2010 06:23 PM
      I never doubted you for a second.

Aside from the texture difference and a few very minute details, no one would be able to tell it was reworked. And yes, it looks 100x better without the EGR stuff. Awesome job guys!

Unfortunately I'm home feeling like hell again, I left early. This is not the week to be out at all.

Now that the intake is oriented 'properly', some of the Fiero connections will work easier, the "3100 SFI" faces the right way (sweet), and the intercooler plumbing will be easy as pie. I'm going to place the air/water IC in the stock cat location, and so the pipes will simply route down there, then over and up to the TB. I plan on doing the water/air setup myself, so I wasn't originally going to have Dave install a BOV since I would have to change the piping anyway, but now that its going to go the same route no matter what, I'm having him install a BOV on the IC piping as well. It's a Synapse Engineering "Synchronic" BOV, a new style of BOV that's supposed to be the best on the market right now, it has rave reviews from users. It's designed to actually work, not just to sound cool, and is configurable and adjustable to many setups (there's more to a BOV than one might think).


The logs aren't exactly as I specified (I had updated it from the drawing earlier), but much less labor intensive and they'll work just about as well this way.
My main concern with everything is cracking because of the high thermal cycling this setup will encounter (open track days and such), and I also plan on driving it anywhere from 0* with snow on the ground to 120* in the Arizona heat and everything in between, when needed. It's not my only car, but I want a car that will withstand every type of condition as well as a (newer) factory vehicle. I'm somewhat concerned that my (minimum) specified .065" wall thickness will not be enough, but it's thicker than most non-turbo headers. We shall see.

The lack of a flex section on the Y-pipe is because I hear as many bad things about them as good things. They create two more welded joints to possibly fail and they sometimes crack underneath the braid at the actual flex points.
I think it will be okay in that respect as it's not a 'tight' Y-pipe and so has a tiny bit of strain relief built in, and the way the two-bolt flanges to the log manifolds are oriented gives it a tiny bit more, because the gaskets in there are compressible.
At any rate, if it cracks on me, I will weld it back up and probably add a flex section.

I'm having Dave cut the manifold to head flanges in between each primary because this gives that area some strain relief and reduces the chance of the manifolds cracking. Of course all of this will also be ceramic coated inside and out with Jet Hot's "Jet Hot 2000" coating in black, which is good for up to 2450*. The turbine housing will also be coated in the same, but only the outside. That will also get a turbine blanket wrapped around it.

The wastegate is the ever-popular Tial 38mm. Its location (second to last and last pic in my picture post above) is a compromise. I wanted it angled toward the airflow, not doing this will sometimes cause boost creep. However, without some fancy fabrication and other space compromises, and another couple places to crack, this is the best compromise. I've definitely seen some wastegates in much worse locations, it 'should' be fine for this setup.
Studs are welded onto the flange and the flange is welded directly to the 'Y' section.

The turbo will be braced from underneath to hold its weight. The bracket design is not finalized, but Dave has something cool in mind.


These guys are really kicking butt. The main components are coming together, I'm really getting excited now!


bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #81, 02-03-2010 06:54 PM
      I'm glad you are happy so far. I put together a great team to build this car.....Alltrbo being the head engineer from afar of course. So, if it fails, we know who to blame...lol.
I think we can smooth out the rest of the intake and even ceramic coat it if you like....maybe a nice satin black would look good.
There are a few small details that I don't quite agree with on the build, but Alltrbo has heard my arguements and sided with me more often than not...but regardless, I'm building this for him, so he has all the final say. I'm having fun and getting paid without having to take my clothes off for men, so I'm happy.
Dave


ALLTRBO MSG #82, 02-03-2010 07:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru: I'm having fun and getting paid without having to take my clothes off for men, so I'm happy.
Dave

In that case, I hope you get lots and lots of Fiero business!

I enjoy being the 'systems engineer' for sure, at least I can do that much, if I can't be the technician as well. I'm not the drop it off and "give me XXX horsepower" kind of guy (have I said that before? I'm losing it).
It's quite a switch for me. I'm a NASA electronics technician who builds the stuff designed by engineers (who are so very often completely incompetent that it's scary), so I know that it's very good to openly receive input from the technician... the kind who does his job well, anyway. I've also learned that it's always the engineer's fault! hehe (j/k)
Well, at least I'm on-and-off going to school to get a degree in Aerospace Engineering (if I can ever kick these stupid health problems... )

I'd rather powder the intake than ceramic, it doesn't have to deal with the temps the exhaust does, and I think it's cheaper than the process used to ceramic coat aluminum (brief search, I could be wrong). Smoothed satin black (with sanded bare aluminum numbers/letters for now) would be nice. Hmm... Let's talk about that. As always, cost plays a huge part. My wife hates this car enough already!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 02-03-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #83, 02-09-2010 07:25 AM
      I just read that ^^^ again, and didn't mean to imply that Dave can't engineer or design anything himself. He is, of course, designing specific components for my car, but you really have to look no further than his VR6 swap to see that he knows what he's doing on all fronts.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 02-15-2010).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #84, 02-20-2010 10:04 AM
      Here is the relocated oil drain as per Steven's specs. We were limited to the location as to where the drain could be added. Too close to the rear of the pan and the cv joint would interfere. Too close to the front of the pan and the axle shaft could hit it. Basically we tested the suspension under full compression, full drop and all inbetween and found we only had around 30mm to work with on the pan. We located the drain to the top most part of the pan and the only spot feasible. It is located across from the stock location, so I know that the pan baffles won't be an issue. The drain hose is always at an angle and never horizontal. Everything is to spec.
Steven, the album has more pics if you would like to see and post up at your disgression.
Dave


suspension under full compression.





nosaint MSG #85, 02-20-2010 11:26 AM
      keep it up!

ALLTRBO MSG #86, 02-20-2010 12:39 PM
      Beautiful. Now I see how little room there is, the fit was very well dynamically tested and executed considering the constraints. I don't think the drain line angle should be an issue, I've seen worse. Though if it is, I'll cross that bridge when I get to it (scavenge pumps are always an option)

I appreciate the additional pics to add to my collection as they help me get a better 3D visualization, but for the purposes of this thread those three pics are perfect, they show everything that there is to show in that area. Thanks for posting them.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 03-08-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #87, 03-12-2010 08:56 PM
      Freshly coated parts are on en route back to Dave as I type. Pics soon, I hope.

I updated my WTB thread, I REALLY need most of these few items that are as of yet un-acquired.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/043893.html

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 03-12-2010).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #88, 03-22-2010 07:23 PM
      Here is a quick pic of the finished logs. The Y-pipe looks just as good. I should have an "in car" pic later this week, but I had to pull the engine again to fabricate an a/c compressor bracket. It has been discontinued from the dealer and seems like more trouble to find one than just make it.



ALLTRBO MSG #89, 03-22-2010 08:23 PM
     

G'night


ALLTRBO MSG #90, 04-25-2010 07:50 AM
      I'm going up to see The Guru and the current progress of his worked-magic today, and I'm bringing my camera.
More to follow.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 04-25-2010).]

La fiera MSG #91, 04-25-2010 08:46 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

Here is a quick pic of the finished logs. The Y-pipe looks just as good. I should have an "in car" pic later this week, but I had to pull the engine again to fabricate an a/c compressor bracket. It has been discontinued from the dealer and seems like more trouble to find one than just make it.



Beautiful peaces!! Just make sure your guru builds you a bracket to give support on the turbo flange so the Y pipe is not on stress all the time because with the weight of the turbo and the lateral movement the Y pipe will crack or break. Can't wait to see it running!. I hope you doing well physically too.

Good luck

R. Moloon


ALLTRBO MSG #92, 04-26-2010 03:01 PM
      Definitely, bmwguru is going to fab up a nice bracket to hold the turbo's weight. That's very near on the to-do list.
Thanks for the well wishes!

Well I made it up there and back, looks good so far!
I have pics on my camera but it'll be a little while before I can upload them.
We discussed several more things since it was easier to do while the car was right there. He'll be completing the exhaust, and eliminating the lower half of the trunk. My wife doesn't like that much, but that's why she drives her 4-door Civic with a massive trunk instead.

I have more body mods on the way and more in mind upon the return of MIDTRBO, I'll get there eventually.

Dave and I both had a very miserable month I think, but we're both pretty much back on track (I have a new Camaro DD now, and I'm healing nicely from my motorcycle accident. :/ ) More updates to come before long...

OBTW, Dave's orange/black GT and Joey's VR6 powered Fiero are even more awesome in person! Pics don't do the 'drool factor' justice.



unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #93, 04-26-2010 06:55 PM
      I'm jealous... Like the man said in the post several before... I need to have Fiero turbo to drive NOW

skuzzbomer MSG #94, 05-09-2010 07:46 AM
      Any news on the home front?

ALLTRBO MSG #95, 05-09-2010 09:58 AM
      Still gotta upload my pics, first I have to swap more practical wheels onto the new DD then take a bunch of pics of one of the AWD Talons that I have for sale, then hopefully I can post up the Haus pics that I took. I'm shooting for all of that today. I'm finally recovering enough from my motorcycle accident that I can move my upper body around freely and much less painfully.

I haven't received word from Dave as to what he's done since my last update, but I'm still in the process of ordering and finding a few parts to get to him. We are reaching the home stretch as far as him firing this thing up, though!

Unboundmo, no reason to be jealous! This thing is still just an old faded 80's GM car that hasn't run in several years.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 05-09-2010).]

unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #96, 05-10-2010 01:23 AM
      Well...... not mine. I'M READY FOR BOOST on my newly built 3.4L p/r with forged internals and I can't wait for that whip feel.. Though my engine gives me a turbo sensation now... Just think ------- I can't wait

fieromadman (j_depies@hotmail.com) MSG #97, 05-10-2010 04:40 AM
      Looks like we have a lot of common ideas for engineering solutions.

VERY interested to see final outcomes!



bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #98, 05-31-2010 05:08 PM
      Here is a quick pic of Steven's car getting the alignment done as per his specs on this Memorial Day weekend. Who needs bbq's and beer when there are Fieros to work on.



Dave



ALLTRBO MSG #99, 06-01-2010 10:16 PM
      Thanks Dave.

Head's killing me, waiting for meds to work. When I was there I only got a few decent pics, camera not set up for the lighting, and too close. Not much typing for now, just clicking.














More news later.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 06-01-2010).]

carbon MSG #100, 06-02-2010 11:48 AM
      AWESOME... always nice to see some Gen III 60* love...

ALLTRBO MSG #101, 06-06-2010 09:38 PM
      Unboundmo, keep me updated on that turbo 3.4!


 
quote
Originally posted by fieromadman:
Looks like we have a lot of common ideas for engineering solutions.

VERY interested to see final outcomes!

Yessir (and me too!). Yours and others I have studied as well. These aren't all mine and Dave's (and Will's) ideas, at least at first, though I do try to give credit where credit is due. As you might have read, though, I have explored pretty much all possibilities to build what I want, so a lot of it is from my own perspective, which must mean that great minds do think alike.
Also, like all designs, there has to be compromises and a lot of us come up with similar solutions to the problems, which 'may' mean that a particular solution is the best one. I guess it may also mean that we're all just dumb.
I love your car, it's not too often that you see a car owned for a long time and built up better and better over the years. I find that to be awesome, and MIDTRBO will hopefully be mine in the same way.

Carbon, it's more like a Gen II.V, hehe.

In short (I'll try...) The decklid brace above the compressor housing will have to be notched, which I really don't like, but that's about as short as the Y-pipe could get without becoming a T-pipe (no thanks). Dave's going to install some type of decklid strut on the right side that will be strong enough to hold up the decklid on its own. It's not fully determined yet, but it'll work out.

The exhaust will still be done how I want it, with a 'sport' mode and a 'race' mode, and adjustable anywhere in between. However, the layout had to change from my plan, particularly because I forgot all about the rear sway-bar taking up that room, heh. Hence, the half-cut trunk I mentioned earlier. That should also give me more room for my functional rear diffuser.

You can slightly see the cuts Dave made in the header flanges to relieve some of the thermal expansion stresses that might otherwise cause the welds to crack.

The turbine housing has also been ceramic coated as you can see, and for overkill points it's getting a nice turbine blanket on it too. He'll be making various heat-shields to protect the components that are close to the inferno.

A stock dogbone bracket would have bolted up to the heads, but Dave wanted to make a stronger one since I didn't have one already. I think I may want to beef up the trunk side too. I purposely don't expect too much off-boost torque (which is when it'll count most) so I think everything should hold up, but I've heard of cracking there and it is a poly mount, so I'd rather be safe than sorry.

Pretty soon I'm going to show off a bit of what I've been slowly collecting for the interior over the last couple of years.


I don't remember how much I've hinted at it, but now that my twin-turbo Camaro is gone , my time-machine is gone , my AWD Talon's are going , and I have a new reliable Camaro , I will definitely be going further with the Fiero. In addition to going above and beyond already planned suspension mods and fabrication (Will is the know-it-all in that arena, I know a bit), I'll be building up a very stout destroker short-block Gen III "3200" (so then no-more TGP parts, which is fine with me). I'll keep the top-end and accessory drive that Dave installed, especially with its now 'custom' rotated plenum, though there may be 'some' top-end porting and a 'little' cam involved. Add that onto what we're building up already and throw in a few extra key supporting mods, and that's about all I'm going to say for now so I don't get too far ahead of myself... just remember what I said awhile back about what this turbo can do with the right setup.




ALLTRBO MSG #102, 06-07-2010 12:53 PM
      OBTW, I'm still looking for these parts. People keep refusing to come through with what they say they have to sell. I can't give money away!
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/052208.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/052210.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/052209.html

And I still need to sell (or trade) these:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/052207.html
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/073320.html


ALLTRBO MSG #103, 06-08-2010 10:46 PM
      Edit: pointless 'medicated' posts.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 06-09-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #104, 06-08-2010 10:49 PM
      .

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 06-09-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #105, 06-08-2010 10:53 PM
      .

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 06-09-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #106, 06-08-2010 10:57 PM
      .

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 06-09-2010).]

carbon MSG #107, 06-09-2010 07:52 AM
      Just call em 'placeholders'

Your saving space for future posts.

I want those manifolds and crossover...

I can't tell from the pic, but the charge pipe is going to clear the strut tower, yes?

[This message has been edited by carbon (edited 06-09-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #108, 06-09-2010 12:09 PM
      Yeah, that's uhh, what they are, uhh, heh.

I want the manifolds and crossover too. +1

The compressor side hasn't been clocked properly yet, and the turbo isn't quite mounted on the crossover in the pics, so it will pull away from the strut tower just a bit further. When all that's taken care of the 2.5" charge pipe will fit, albeit, a tight fit (isn't everything? heh..)

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 06-13-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #109, 06-13-2010 03:51 PM
      It's "official", I just got permission from my wife to put all of the money I will receive from selling both of my AWD Talon's straight into MIDTRBO. That'll just about finish it up without using too much more income. That includes the stout 3200 shortblock, W/A IC, smaller items, and the high quality paint job (I'm going to have lildevil do the paint, he's a painter here in MD and has done several Fieros, including his own).

Also, I'm flirting with the idea of selling my VW wheel/tire combo and going with ASA AR1's. Unfortunately everyone has them and I love the VW 5-spokes , but the AR1's are an inexpensive way to get better performance out of the car. The VW wheels are 17x7 all the way around and weigh 24lbs each, and with the AR1's I'd go with 17x9 in the rears and 16x7's in the front with the proper offsets. The 17's weigh 21lbs and the 16's weigh 18lbs, and I can get a better tire width combo to match the weight distribution. I'll have it corner-weighted before I do this.

That'll reduce unsprung weight and rotational mass all in one (depending on the tire weight differences). Slightly better suspension action, acceleration, and braking. Either that or the effective mass will be the same, but I get much wider tires (or somewhere in between), and that's not to mention that the fronts with a 48mm offset won't stick out on the '88 like the VW wheels do a bit, and I think the staggered diameter looks good on a Fiero. They should all fit around the 12" Corvette rotors.
win-lose-win-win

Here's a quick poor-quality PS:

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 06-13-2010).]

vrossiter (vincent.rossiter@gmail.com) MSG #110, 06-13-2010 06:14 PM
      So, its coming along then! That'll be one bad ride!

I leave to get mine from the Haus on Thursday morning. If everything works out *fingers crossed* I'll be in the Missing Piece by Thursday afternoon!
Just ironed out some details with Joey, she's been kind enough to offer my wife and I a ride from the airport to the shop, and I gladly accepted after I found out what a rental car for a couple hours would be. My hopes are high as, according to Joey, 'the car is wicked fast'.

Any idea when yours will be done? I look foward to seeing some numbers on that thing!

Vince


bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #111, 06-13-2010 08:34 PM
      I was out driving Vince's car today....made some slight changes to the tune.
I really can't wait to drive project Midtrbo, but knowing my OCD, it will be delayed a bit cause I seem to like doing things three times....even when the first part looks great (except for that slight imperfection....oh damn, maybe I'll just make another. It only took three hours....and I know that if I add a little angle to that part, it will be stronger....oh yes....that will do).
Not to hijack this thread, but that was an example of why project Midtrbo is taking a bit longer than it should. Between Steven's OCD, my OCD and our busy schedules, only perfection is expected. I spent 10 hours a day for five straight days fabricating one part that should have taken three or four hours.....and I only billed for the four hours.
Dave


darkhorizon MSG #112, 06-14-2010 10:42 AM
     
 
quote
I spent 10 hours a day for five straight days fabricating one part that should have taken three or four hours.....and I only billed for the four hours.


I might have to plan a trip out to NJ with Dave this year, I have a feeling we would get along quite well.


CrazyBernie MSG #113, 06-14-2010 11:42 AM
      I pimped your wheels out a bit.



hookdonspeed (hookdonspeed@gmail.com) MSG #114, 06-14-2010 01:38 PM
      lol, i think that style rim looks good on the car, if they were just cleaned up a bit, and in like a machined alum look or something..

ALLTRBO MSG #115, 06-14-2010 10:15 PM
      Vince, thanks! Sounds like your car will be a very fun ride!
We were closing in on a June completion date largely due to Dave's future move, but he's not going anywhere for a little while now and my car isn't far enough along for a June ETA I think, but hopefully within the next couple months at most. I can't wait to get it back! It'll be a while before I get 'real' numbers because I have a LOT of tuning to do, I'm having Dave to (hopefully) get it running 'reasonably enough' on my modified TGP .bin's to get home, then I'm going to throw in a 3-bar MAP and start fresh with Code59, it's a MUCH better code and WAY more documented.
I'm still thinking of what we can do to get it "WOTable" before I leave, so at least that part can be checked out. I had a 15psi spring put in the WG, though, so the TGP code wouldn't allow that to begin with even if I did have him put the 42lb/hr injectors back in (I haven't yet learned how to clear out the 10psi fuel cutoff limit in that code).
So at the ETA I'm thinking it'll be boostable and still quite quick, but not fully usable until I tune it in better. I can tune over the phone with Dave if need be, but swapping from $8F (TGP code) to Code59 is a whole different ball game.

I'm really trying to sell BOTH AWD Talons before the Fiero gets back as it will help me IMMENSELY with the extra space, extra funding, and lesser stress. Once it's back and running, I can do my parts one at a time while keeping it running, there's a lot more motivation and less "overwhelming factor" that way.

OCD is a blessing and a curse, but mostly a curse. I don't feel like my standards are all that high, it just seems to me that most other's standards are really low. Of course that's often not the case, it's just the perception I have of things (of course, there are many who do have really low standards)

Dave speaks truth. For the custom work he does, almost anywhere else would have run me dry long ago. Of course I feel that many other shops are overpriced, but you can't beat the Haus total value.

Now...


LOL, that wheel swap makes me want to go or something.

I eyed a really sweet set of Enkei racing wheels at 16lbs for 17x8's , but they aren't available in 16's at all and the only width available on a 5x100 17 is 8". No good.


ALLTRBO MSG #116, 06-19-2010 11:33 PM
      I have these (real) leather Mr. Mike's seats for MIDTRBO, but I'm thinking that I want to trade them for a decent set of black cloth racing seats. By decent, I mean reclining, fully padded, cloth, and in good shape. They don't have to be any of the really nice brands, but they need to be of decent build quality.
For the right pair I'd be willing to trade these seats and some cash.

Otherwise, they're what is going into MIDTRBO. I have them from my first Fiero. They are comfortable and look really good in the car. The only moderate wear is on the driver's seat bottom. With a decent leather cleaner, die, and conditioner, they could look about as good as new. The slight loose-wrinkles you see in the middle of the lower side bolsters were just from boxes sitting on them, they're already re-stretched tight.

Just thought I'd share, and put it out there that I'd rather have a set of nice racing seats now that I have a comfy DD.









More interior goodies I've been collecting to come soon...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 06-20-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #117, 06-20-2010 08:55 AM
      Something like this would do nicely I think. It's about exactly what I have in mind.



Rallaster MSG #118, 06-20-2010 08:51 PM
      Any updates? A lot of the pics are broken links.. I have been offered what I have been told is a Mclaren turbo 3.1 and am looking at doing a basic swap. My Fiero is a 5 speed and you said earlier that the shift linkages are blocked by the turbo, how was that overcame?

ALLTRBO MSG #119, 06-20-2010 11:10 PM
      Broken links, really? I can see them all still. They're all hosted via Cliff's server. Maybe it was down for a short time?

I'm going to email Dave tomorrow asking about the status.

The linkage issue was overcome by using nothing from the TGP except the shortblock. Seriously, I think it's only worth the basic swap if you have an auto because otherwise, at the least, you'll have to make a custom crossover that will still keep the turbo out of the way of the TB. That's doable, just more work required. With an auto, the TGP manifolds, crossover, and turbo can be used. At that point, after a couple more ~minor mods you can make around 240-250hp at the crank. That's about the limit before you start really having to add more $$$. That'd be a quick Fiero nonetheless, on par with a stock L67 swap.

There was NO WAY I was going with an auto, though. Before too long I won't even have the TGP shortblock anymore, just a custom turbo 3200 destroker.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 06-21-2010).]

Rallaster MSG #120, 06-20-2010 11:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Broken links, really? I can see them all still. They're all hosted via Cliff's server. Maybe it was down for a short time?

I'm going to email Dave tomorrow asking about the status.

The linkage issue was overcome buy using nothing from the TGP except the shortblock. Seriously, I think it's only worth the basic swap if you have an auto because otherwise, at the least, you'll have to make a custom crossover that will still keep the turbo out of the way of the TB. That's doable, just more work required. With an auto, the TGP manifolds, crossover, and turbo can be used. At that point, after a couple more ~minor mods you can make around 240-250hp at the crank. That's about the limit before you start really having to add more $$$. That'd be a quick Fiero nonetheless, on par with a stock L67 swap.

There was NO WAY I was going with an auto, though. Before too long I won't even have the TGP shortblock anymore, just a custom turbo 3200 destroker.


The issue must've been a network issue, cause I can see them now.

Crud. I really don't have the skills or tools to fab anything, and I'm currently between jobs and as such, pretty much broke, so I can't really afford to convert it to an auto, and like you, I don't think I could live with myself if I made it not a manual. LOL


ALLTRBO MSG #121, 06-21-2010 07:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rallaster:
...and like you, I don't think I could live with myself if I made it not a manual. LOL


Exactly, if I didn't want to shift I'd drive my wife's Civic. No thanks! This ain't gonna be no granny car!



Now...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 06-21-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #122, 06-21-2010 09:16 PM
      Here's more. First the obsession started out with this:





Then the boost gauge came, of course, then I figured that I just had to get some accurate engine readings so I got a couple more, then... well, one by one, then a few large ones at the end, and I ended up with all this! (Note: This is not the layout I'm going to have, they just gave me this packaging with the most recent order, figured it was perfect for pics):



















Now the only bit from the original overlays that I'm going to use is the HVAC control. LOL

The trick is to order these over the course of a couple years, and only when Speedhut has sales. They have several good ones throughout the year, and I didn't pay full price for a single gauge.
Just don't let my wife know how much they cost when added up. Dare I say it? They cost me more than I paid for the car!

The numbers/letters/symbols will glow either blue or green at night, depending on the mood I'm in (BLUE!) I'll leave my actual layout up to your imagination for now, but I bet it isn't exactly what you're thinking.

I'm still thinking of a few more I could use, but this is most of them (muhahaha).

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 06-21-2010).]

Rallaster MSG #123, 06-21-2010 09:47 PM
      Ok, I'm loving the possibilities of the gauges.. LOL As a former OTR truck driver, I got used to gauges, LOTS of gauges and have been contemplating gauges, just cuz in mine as is.. My only question is, how will you fit them with out obstructing your view of the road and it still look good??

ALLTRBO MSG #124, 06-21-2010 09:51 PM
      I have my ways. (It really won't be hard with only 8)

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 06-21-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #125, 07-11-2010 06:51 PM
      Oh man, I was just looking for something and ran across a date. 6/6/09. This means that my Fiero has been at Dave's shop for over a year now! Wow, time goes by insanely fast. When I was in third grade or whatever, one month took this amount of time to pass.
Soon I will have owned this Fiero for 3 years, and I still haven't driven it.
The good thing is that in a short time from now, mine will be the one and only Fiero he is going to work on until I drive it out of his shop.

I'll never give in, but man, it'd be nice to have been driving even a 3800SC Fiero for nearly the last year (did I just say that?). You can't beat those swaps at the Haus for bang for your buck and a quick turnaround.
Ah well, this car will be built the way I really want it to be.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 07-11-2010).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #126, 07-11-2010 07:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Oh man, I was just looking for something and ran across a date. 6/6/09. This means that my Fiero has been at Dave's shop for over a year now! Wow, time goes by insanely fast. When I was in third grade or whatever, one month took this amount of time to pass.
Soon I will have owned this Fiero for 3 years, and I still haven't driven it.
The good thing is that in a short time from now, mine will be the one and only Fiero he is going to work on until I drive it out of his shop.

I'll never give in, but man, it'd be nice to have been driving even a 3800SC Fiero for nearly the last year (did I just say that?). You can't beat those swaps at the Haus for bang for your buck and a quick turnaround.
Ah well, this car will be built the way I really want it to be.



Yeah, it has been a year....and that means my orange and black car hasn't been driven in that long also
Anyway, I had to put the swaps on the secondary list, but I do find about 15-20 hours a week on average to work on them. I plan to make progress this week on project Midtrbo, so I'll post up some new pics on here.
The odd part is when I sneak down to the shop to work, I get so much done....during the work week, I have to answer the phone, and get about 5 customers walking in every day to have me listen to some noise in their BMW's suspension or check engine light. Then my ten hour day turns into about three hours of work.
I think Steven will be really impressed with our exhaust idea. I do need to send him the design idea for approval first, but once the trunk it cut, I'll have dimensions to work with.
Dave


ALLTRBO MSG #127, 07-12-2010 08:32 PM
      BMW's pay the bills, you do what you gotta do.
I'm looking forward to more PC'd parts, and that exhaust layout!

...also, Dave let me know today that the "tested" starter that I had the junkyard send to him was actually no good. I'm really sick of sending him bad parts!
He's going to pick up a re-man'd starter for it. It's a Gen III 60V6 starter (3100/3400), they're lighter and more efficient than the earlier ones.


Rallaster MSG #128, 07-13-2010 02:20 AM
     

ALLTRBO MSG #129, 07-15-2010 12:12 PM
      The trunk is being chopped in half today (IIRC), lots of the smaller engine/swap parts have been installed, and the turbo bracket has been fabbed. My upper intake will be powdercoated in crinkle (or wrinkle) black, and either Dave or I will sand the raised "3100 SFI" down to the aluminum to give it a nice contrast.
After that it sounds like it's on to the final cold-side exhaust designing.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 07-15-2010).]

dobey MSG #130, 07-15-2010 03:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:
The trunk is being chopped in half today (IIRC), lots of the smaller engine/swap parts have been installed, and the turbo bracket has been fabbed. My upper intake will be powdercoated in crinkle (or wrinkle) black, and either Dave or I will sand the raised "3100 SFI" down to the aluminum to give it a nice contrast.


Are you going to paint or powdercoat the plenum?


bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #131, 07-15-2010 04:15 PM
      I'm going to powdercoat it.....both the silver letters and the black plenum will both be powdercoated separately.
Dave


ALLTRBO MSG #132, 07-15-2010 05:09 PM
      Oh... sweet.

ALLTRBO MSG #133, 07-16-2010 10:47 PM
      More Lunesta post

My quick and dirty PS of future. The future is now, now is soon. Not red.







I have these waiting patiently protected for the car after paint





ALLTRBO MSG #134, 07-22-2010 09:47 PM
      Don't mind the Lunesta... It keeps me on top of things (sort-of) during the day so I can pay for this waste of money (and the mortgage, and bills, and food, etc. etc.).

I've got plans, and nothing will stop them if I have anything to say about it.
I'm REALLY wanting, going through withdrawals again. My new Camaro-boat is an AWESOME car, don't get me wrong, but I need a turbo go-kart once in a while too!

Someone ask me questions, I want to talk about it.


dobey MSG #135, 07-22-2010 10:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:
Someone ask me questions, I want to talk about it.


Is it done yet?


ALLTRBO MSG #136, 07-22-2010 10:53 PM
      Don't make me turn this thread around!

ALLTRBO MSG #137, 07-29-2010 05:51 PM
      I'm #4 in line for this front fascia. Here's Amida's latest progress on the prototype...



I'm not sure exactly how yet, but I'll mod* that a bit, too, for better airflow.
(*The word 'tweak' is officially played out. )

Hopefully Dave will have some pics soon, but he's really busy so I don't mind if it takes a bit. He's done a lot of work to the car recently, most of which isn't necessarily worth posting pics of (like the parking brake system, for example, it's now complete and functional). The really pretty bit will be the powdercoated intake, and I also want plenty of pics of the turbo bracket and the trunk-chop. The post-turbo exhaust will start soon, the main design and layout is finalized and agreed upon by all.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 07-29-2010).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #138, 07-30-2010 02:44 PM
      Our plenum came out very nice. To summarize this, Steven wanted the intake reversed so that the throttle body would be on the passenger side and lettering would face the correct direction. We had to cut the throttle body flange off, reshape the intake and TIG weld it back on to look like it came from the factory.
The powdercoating was done "in Haus" in a two stage setup. First, we prepped the plenum. Then we sprayed the lettering in "reflective chrome". Joey then taped off the letters (I would have lost my patience at this point), and we powdercoated the rest in a "wrinkle black".

Here are some pics:











we also have pics of the trunk that we cut.....





Dave


Pete Matos MSG #139, 07-30-2010 02:58 PM
      WOW man that looks VERY nice.. Nice tig job and blending of that manifold. Looks like it was born that way. SO a 3100 turbo? What are the specs on that setup? What kinda turbo is that and what do you think the power output will be once it is tuned up? VERY nice looking install and professional work there.... peace

Pete


ALLTRBO MSG #140, 07-30-2010 05:45 PM
      Hell yes! That looks GREAT!
The AFPR goes very nicely with it, too.
I'm going to have a set of valve covers painted Candy Plasma Blue when I get the car painted, and that will complete the look.
I just have to say it again. That looks AWESOME! I love it!

I "officially" designate SFI as "Single Fire Injection". (It actually means Sequential Fuel Injection, but the '730 ECU I'm using is a "batch fire" system, meaning that it fires all 6 injectors at once, instead of sequentially like the engine the plenum came from).

Pete, it's a '90 Turbo Grand Prix 3.1 bottom end with a 3100 top end (well, '01 3400 heads/lower intake and '02 3100 plenum, they're all the exact same except the plenum numbers).
All of the information is in this thread, but to sum it up at this point...
The turbo is a Borg/Warner S258 with a Garrett .82 a/r T3 turbine housing machined to fit.
Once it's fully tuned (it'll take a lot of time to get right!), I expect to make around 325-350whp on 12-15psi, it's hard to narrow it down further until I get a decent tune on it. I'll be building the water/air intercooler setup and doing all of the tuning.
Since I had to sell off all of my other toys, I'll be going to "Stage II" with it, and that's a built "3200" destroker bottom end based off of a 3500, which will nearly be a *direct* swap into the car from where it is now. The top end will be the same, but probably ported. With that bottom end and more supporting mods I'll run more boost, and even more boost than that on race gas. I won't disclose my power estimates for that, but it'll be very scary to say the least.

Thanks for the compliments. Dave and Joey and crew do very nice work. I'm very happy with it so far!




Rallaster MSG #141, 07-30-2010 09:54 PM
      bmwguru is kicking ass and taking names on your build!

Dude, you and fieroguy123 have turned me into a turbo guy. I'm going to be buying the (stock)2.0Turbo that fieroguy123 is pulling out of fierogal123's Formula and that's probably going to be going into my '86 base coupe. I lost out on the 3.1turbo that was for sale... he just wanted way more money than I could justify.


ALLTRBO MSG #142, 07-31-2010 09:57 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rallaster:
Dude, you and fieroguy123 have turned me into a turbo guy.

The farce is strong with this one.
Prepare ship...for LUDICROUS SPEED!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 08-01-2010).]

fieroguy123 (fieroguy1@yahoo.com) MSG #143, 07-31-2010 10:03 AM
      Hahahaha! Priceless!!!

Pete Matos MSG #144, 07-31-2010 10:11 AM
      I gotta say that I am quickly seeing the beauty of turbocharging lately, even tho I have this 3800SCII here to play with soon I am seriously thinking about making this a turbo car instead. The power output and efficiency advantages are just too big to deny. Then after seeing the performance of Justins car as well as others on here with well built turbo systems I can't see any other way to go...... Never seen one like this tho with the 3.1 and am anxious to see what kind of performance you get out of it. Should be very impressive and Obviously you have top notch people working on it. One look at that Tig welded manifold and the tidiness of the assembly in that engine bay speaks volumes to the skills of the builders.... Congratulations on going with an interesting and unique setup there, well done....!!

Peace

Pete


hklvette MSG #145, 08-06-2010 02:52 PM
      When you re-angled the intake inlet, was it simply for aesthetics, or to keep if from being too close to the strut tower? Were there any other changes required for it to be bolted on backwards?

Thanks!


ALLTRBO MSG #146, 08-08-2010 04:42 PM
      Hklvette, the intake needed re-angled for strut-tower clearance. The throttlebody would have jammed straight into it otherwise.
It bolts directly onto the lower intake both ways. The only other things that need to be changed are changes you have to make for a Fiero swap anyway, such as hose and throttle linkage connections, fuel rail mounting, and some minor accessory-drive modifications.

Pete, thanks.
As some mentioned in that other thread, in general turbochargers are more efficient than superchargers, but not always. Yes, superchargers have a large parasitic loss via the crank driven belt, but turbochargers also have a loss in the form of added backpressure in the exhaust before the turbo. If you compare some older designs of turbochargers with some newer designs of some superchargers, you'll see that the difference in efficiency isn't as great as one might think. In general turbochargers make a broader powerband with higher torque than a comparable supercharger, as evidenced by several direct-comparisons that I've seen (I'd have to search to find the articles, it's been a long time). That's very 'rule-of-thumb', though. Many variables come into play.

That being said, yes, almost any of the turbo's people mount up on the L67's (3800SC) are more efficient than that stock supercharger, and even a lot of aftermarket twin-screw or roots superchargers. That's why you see massive power coming out of the turbo setups and not the supercharged setups. There are supercharger upgrades that'll knock your 3800 socks off too, but from what I understand they usually they won't fit in a Fiero without hacking up the decklid (especially with an intake-mounted intercooler that's required to make serious power), and they have instant torque that's great for shredding our weak transverse transmissions (yes, even the 4T65).

With a setup like mine, a turbo is a no-brainer because there aren't any bolt-on supercharger setups available. I'm seriously biased toward turbos anyway, so I'd never bother with a supercharger even if it was easier.


ALLTRBO MSG #147, 08-08-2010 09:45 PM
      Probable taillight setup... The pic is real, but I photoshopped it to closer reflect what I want the taillights to look like (and it's a yellow car with dual stripes). I don't know who's car this is, unfortunately.
I've had this idea in my head for several years.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 08-09-2010).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #148, 08-13-2010 09:36 AM
      Here is a few quick pics of the exhaust. It is all stainless steel and TIG welded together. It is fabricated from mandrel bends. We fabricated it into two pieces to make removal easier. The only part not shown is the wastegate dump. As per Steven's request, we built essentially two exhaust systems and incorporated them into one unit. There is an electronic flapper to regulate the flow through the muffler. This acts as a turbo dump, but Steven did not want any exhaust to not come out of the tail pipes, so we had to create a circuit for the muffler.

Dave







Rallaster MSG #149, 08-13-2010 11:23 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
*snip*



Wait.. I don't quite understand what I'm looking at. I know it's an exhaust, and I can see that the muffler is on it's own separate circuit and I see the electronic flapper, but I'm not quite understanding the why of it all..

God, being ignorant sucks..


ALLTRBO MSG #150, 08-13-2010 11:52 AM
      Beautiful! I'm getting excited^2. It's all becoming very 'real' now.

Rallaster, when the electric cutout (it's actually just a 'valve' now) is closed, the exhaust is forced to flow through the 2.5" muffler. When it's open, it goes straight through the 3" pipe. I want the ability to quiet the exhaust down for neighborhood cruising, etc, but at the track/strip or whenever I feel like it, I want it to blow straight through for the least restriction possible (basically, you don't want any restriction after the turbo). The valve is infinitely adjustable so I can set it anywhere in between.

I wanted all of the exhaust to exit the tailpipes, none before, as a typically installed cutout does. The wastegate dump will also be routed back into the downpipe at a 45* angle.

Dave, out of curiosity, why did you paint it? It doesn't bother me and it looks good, but it doesn't need paint because it's SS.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 08-13-2010).]

AkursedX (akursedx@aol.com) MSG #151, 08-13-2010 12:04 PM
      That exhaust looks great! Very creative and I'm sure it will be effective for both noise and performance! What cutout are you using?



Rallaster MSG #152, 08-13-2010 12:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Beautiful! I'm getting excited^2. It's all becoming very 'real' now.

Rallaster, when the electric cutout (it's actually just a 'valve' now) is closed, the exhaust is forced to flow through the 2.5" muffler. When it's open, it goes straight through the 3" pipe. I want the ability to quiet the exhaust down for neighborhood cruising, etc, but at the track/strip or whenever I feel like it, I want it to blow straight through for the least restriction possible (basically, you don't want any restriction after the turbo). The valve is infinitely adjustable so I can set it anywhere in between.

I wanted all of the exhaust to exit the tailpipes, none before, as a typically installed cutout does. The wastegate dump will also be routed back into the downpipe at a 45* angle.

Dave, out of curiosity, why did you paint it? It doesn't bother me and it looks good, but it doesn't need paint because it's SS.



Ah-ha! I like it. Thanks for the explanation! Looking good, man.

Making me wish I had the $$ to do the 2.0 Turbo swap from Fieroguy123, now. Getting really itchy for something with a little more oomph than my little dukey has.


ALLTRBO MSG #153, 08-13-2010 12:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by AkursedX:

That exhaust looks great! Very creative and I'm sure it will be effective for both noise and performance! What cutout are you using?


Thanks. I can't wait to hear how this thing is going to sound!
It's a Race Ready cutout.
www.racereadyperformance.com/Home_Page.html
I pored though various forums trying to find out which was the most reliable, and this won out over QTP because of less reports of failure, and it has a lifetime warranty.


 
quote
Originally posted by Rallaster:
Ah-ha! I like it. Thanks for the explanation! Looking good, man.

Making me wish I had the $$ to do the 2.0 Turbo swap from Fieroguy123, now. Getting really itchy for something with a little more oomph than my little dukey has.

No problem, and thanks! It's so much fun seeing my visions pop into reality. The Haus of Guru is like my own real life Etch-a-Sketch. They're doing great!

Yeah, the 2.0 turbo should be a BLAST compared to the dukey (LOL). Patience, young padawan. Good things will come in time (that's what I keep trying to tell myself anyway. )

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 08-13-2010).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #154, 08-13-2010 01:02 PM
      Steven,
I painted the exhaust to give it that final "touch". The muffler was polished stainless and the exhaust was unpolished. I wanted it to match. We taped off the flex pipe to give that the natural look. The wastegate pipe will be installed on Monday.
Dave


Rallaster MSG #155, 08-13-2010 02:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

No problem, and thanks! It's so much fun seeing my visions pop into reality. The Haus of Guru is like my own real life Etch-a-Sketch. They're doing great!

Yeah, the 2.0 turbo should be a BLAST compared to the dukey (LOL). Patience, young padawan. Good things will come in time (that's what I keep trying to tell myself anyway. )



I've driven the 2.0T with the 3spd auto he has it mated with now, and it IS fun. When it goes in my car it's getting mated to an Isuzu 5spd. and it's getting a twin Throttle Body conversion to help reduce turbo lag..

[This message has been edited by Rallaster (edited 08-13-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #156, 08-14-2010 12:01 AM
      Dave, okay. I think the paint will burn off in time, though, at least near the turbine. It does look very good in black.
I sent you an email.

Rallaster, cool. That should be a super-fun setup with the 5-speed. I'm not too familiar with that engine setup, how exactly will the twin TB's reduce lag over the single?


Here's one more pic of the exhaust. Before long we should have pics of it all installed.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 08-14-2010).]

Rallaster MSG #157, 08-14-2010 08:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Dave, okay. I think the paint will burn off in time, though, at least near the turbine. It does look very good in black.
I sent you an email.

Rallaster, cool. That should be a super-fun setup with the 5-speed. I'm not too familiar with that engine setup, how exactly will the twin TB's reduce lag over the single?




The way it was explained to me is that it allows for a higher air flow into the intake and allows the turbo to spool up faster.

[This message has been edited by Rallaster (edited 08-14-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #158, 08-18-2010 12:35 PM
      Wow, the stock TB must be tiny then!


I just came across a popular pic I've been meaning to save. I can see my turbo getting that hot on a hot open-track-day. When I first bought my AWD Talon it was stock, and one snowy day I went out to do AWD donuts. After a few minutes of spinning around and getting dizzy, we stopped because we smelled something a little funny. I popped the hood and we saw a red glow coming from underneath the exhaust mani heat shield. The manifold and turbine were glowing, and it was about 30 degrees out! That was only with the stock 11psi and 210hp.
I have good reason to be paranoid about heat and cracking with this one.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 08-18-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #159, 08-18-2010 12:42 PM
      DP

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 08-18-2010).]

thedrue MSG #160, 08-18-2010 01:40 PM
      That looks familiar... On the way back from Fiero Fest last weekend my trunk carpet got melted and a foam pad I had packed away... I have to do something about the heat coming off the headers.

Rallaster MSG #161, 08-18-2010 01:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Wow, the stock TB must be tiny then!



I believe it's 43mm, but may be 46mm.

Nice, glowing turbo. I don't care who you are, that's effing hot! That's a lot of running.


ALLTRBO MSG #162, 08-30-2010 11:13 PM
      Yep, that's itty bitty! My 2G DSM came stock with a tiny 52mm TB and the stock 1G upgrade was 60mm.

In other news, I just bought this Pioneer head unit for MIDTRBO.

http://www.pioneerelectroni...rs/AVH-P5200BT?tab=D



It'll do everything I want it to, and I got it for $486.50 shipped using a 30% discount, not a bad deal I think! (back in the day something of this quality with this many features would have cost $2500 or so, hah!)

I used code UIBMC8UY (through Sep. 4th) if anyone might find that info useful for the 95 Pioneer products that qualify. That code is for 30% off in addition to the other applied discounts, only sold by Amazon directly and not other retailers on the Amazon website. Here's the link to the 95 Pioneer products that qualify.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref...nb&p_6=ATVPDKIKX0DER

Use the code at checkout and you'll be hooked up.
(I have no affiliation with them, just trying to pass along the good deals)

I will also be mounting up a netbook based custom all-in-one hideaway tuning suite thought up during this recent thread of mine .
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/077350.html
I'll post a snippet from one of my posts about it to describe (the original idea in the thread has made way for this):


"My idea is to modify the center console storage compartment to open fully horizontal, get rid of the compartment to make it a flat panel, then mount the netbook with rubber on a low-profile swivel mount so I can open it up then rotate it toward the passenger or me depending. I'll hard-mount my emulator and datalogging cables and leave them plugged in to two USB's on the netbook end, the emulator cable plugged into the ECU, and the datalogger cable plugged into the ALDL port, which will be re-mounted to the inside of the center console since I'll no longer need it to be externally accessible anyway. Fortunately all of that is really close together, so wiring will be cake.
I'll have to top it all off with a good quality hard-wired DC-AC power inverter that will run with the ignition full time.

If that all works out, viola! I'll have a fully integrated, very capable(+) hideaway tuning suite, which is exactly what I need.

Here's where you guys come in. First of all, are netbook hard drives the same as full laptop hard drives? If so, it shouldn't be hard to get a solid state drive to throw in. I'll also rubber-mount the netbook.
Can someone get some dimensions for me? I don't have my car back yet.
I need to know the height, width, and depth of the center storage area, that is, the depression in the center console, not the storage compartment. I'd very much appreciate it."


For the record, yes, the car will be getting a custom security system, and that's the only thing I'll say about it.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 08-31-2010).]

Rallaster MSG #163, 09-06-2010 01:27 PM
      Bump for updates??

ALLTRBO MSG #164, 09-06-2010 03:26 PM
      Lots of little details are being finished up right now, and they started on the wiring harness. Dave should update soon.

I received my Pioneer head unit the other day, it's awesome! I hooked it up to a motorcycle battery on a battery tender and plugged into my shelf-system speakers to try it out because I just couldn't wait for my Fiero, and my wife and I watched a movie on it.

I also researched more on the netbook tuning suite, I'm narrowing lots of things down. For more details on that, visit the thread that's linked above. I'll post all about that here when I more physically get into it.


bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #165, 09-09-2010 07:33 PM
      Here are a few quick pics of the finished exhaust. This was as close to Steven's specs on the wastegate as we could build it. There was no room to get the angles he had asked for and keep the wastegate on the muffled side. We are building the charge pipe system now and waiting for the pcm terminal pins to arrive. I'll update when I have more free time.....lot's going on right now.
Dave













Rallaster MSG #166, 09-09-2010 08:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

Here are a few quick pics of the finished exhaust. This was as close to Steven's specs on the wastegate as we could build it. There was no room to get the angles he had asked for and keep the wastegate on the muffled side. We are building the charge pipe system now and waiting for the pcm terminal pins to arrive. I'll update when I have more free time.....lot's going on right now.
Dave
.....


Man, that looks awesome! ALLTRBO, you're going to end up with one hell of a car. But, we already knew that.. Excellent work bmwguru!


bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #167, 09-09-2010 11:09 PM
      I can't take full credit for the exhaust. I am only as good as the rest of my team. Ryan fabricated the exhaust and joey helped. I just gave my nod of approval and insight.
Dave


Rallaster MSG #168, 09-09-2010 11:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

I can't take full credit for the exhaust. I am only as good as the rest of my team. Ryan fabricated the exhaust and joey helped. I just gave my nod of approval and insight.
Dave


Your team does excellent work!

[This message has been edited by Rallaster (edited 09-09-2010).]

doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #169, 09-09-2010 11:55 PM
      Looks like its going to be a meannnn ride! Post up a video of the exhaust when you can!

ALLTRBO MSG #170, 09-12-2010 08:39 PM
      Sorry for the delayed response. I'm just now starting to recover from my insane work week last week. My mind and body have been...somewhere else.

The exhaust does look great, doesn't it? I hope that I don't have any WG control issues with the return plumbed over there (boost creep mainly), but if I do I'll cross that bridge when I get there. It sure does look sexy!

The crew has delved deeper into the harness and it sounds maybe like I have A/C now?

I'm buying Coinage's Quarter Master triple-disk clutch setup for the 3200 build. MIDTRBO is going to drive like a racecar, I just hope it doesn't drive me crazy!
The important thing is that it'll HOLD. I'll be one step closer to world domination! Muahaha


Rallaster MSG #171, 09-13-2010 12:24 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Sorry for the delayed response. I'm just now starting to recover from my insane work week last week. My mind and body have been...somewhere else.

The exhaust does look great, doesn't it? I hope that I don't have any WG control issues with the return plumbed over there (boost creep mainly), but if I do I'll cross that bridge when I get there. It sure does look sexy!

The crew has delved deeper into the harness and it sounds maybe like I have A/C now?

I'm buying Coinage's Quarter Master triple-disk clutch setup for the 3200 build. MIDTRBO is going to drive like a racecar, I just hope it doesn't drive me crazy!
The important thing is that it'll HOLD. I'll be one step closer to world domination! Muahaha


It(clutch) should hold.. next question is: Will the transmission? You've probably said it before, but I forgot and am to tired right now to go back through the thread, but what kind of power numbers are you expecting out of this build?


ALLTRBO MSG #172, 09-15-2010 12:17 PM
      I'm attempting to get the 282 to hold lots of power by keeping the instant-torque down and reducing the MOI (Moment Of Inertia). Horsepower doesn't kill tranny's (to a point), transient loading does... that means a large amount of torque is applied to the tranny all at once, instead of progressively. This typically happens two ways; Via larger displacement engines that make lots of throttle-on torque, and via heavy rotating parts before the transmission (clutch assembly and crank) which have a high MOI and so don't want to stop spinning as easily. That extra energy is immediately transferred to everything downstream (the first, and often weakest in these cars, being the tranny) during launches and shifts. Those factors together are what cause many of the SBC cars to shred 282's if not driven lightly. Many of those swaps use massive flywheels that are WAY too heavy and large for this application, and that combined especially with 5.7 liters of TPI torque makes for a bad combo.

The reason I want to keep the 282 is mainly that it's very lightweight, only 85 lbs. dry (I think it was, maybe 95). Also, the car is already set up for it of course.

The 3200 will use a 76mm (2.8) crank and the twin-disk clutch, both of which weigh MUCH less and keep the MOI MUCH lower than a lot of the high-hp combos on here. The one disadvantage to this twin-disk in that respect is that it's designed to hold LOTS of torque and has solid hubs, and so grabs very hard without slippage, and that puts a heavier transient load on the trans than a lower-capacity clutch (like the Clutchnet 6-puck sprung-hub clutch that's in MIDTRBO now). I'm hoping the reduced MOI can cancel that out, though, while holding the higher power. Time will tell, and if the tranny goes kaput, my friend Will (username Will on here) has some ideas for the next one (and for his 282 behind his high-compression Northstar).

That setup will come together after this TGP shortblock w/Clutchnet clutch is tuned well and I have a better idea of some specifics I want to change for the 3200 like the cam, static compression, porting, etc. I won't post up my power estimate for that because I don't want to cause any controversy, especially if I don't make it.
With the TGP shortblock I'm hoping for 350whp on pump gas when tuned and with the water/air IC setup (which isn't the way it's going to leave Dave's shop... that'll be a very tuned-down version for reliability's sake). When it comes home without an IC and with the 8.7psi WG spring in it, I estimate that it'll make around 230whp, and that is, by far, as low as it should ever be.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-15-2010).]

Rallaster MSG #173, 09-15-2010 12:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

I'm attempting to get the 282 to hold lots of power by keeping the instant-torque down and reducing the MOI (Moment Of Inertia). Horsepower doesn't kill tranny's (to a point), transient loading does... that means a large amount of torque is applied to the tranny all at once, instead of progressively. This typically happens two ways; Via larger displacement engines that make lots of throttle-on torque, and via heavy rotating parts before the transmission (clutch assembly and crank) which have a high MOI and so don't want to stop spinning as easily. That extra energy is immediately transferred to everything downstream (the first, and often weakest in these cars, being the tranny) during launches and shifts. Those factors together are what cause many of the SBC cars to shred 282's if not driven lightly. Many of those swaps use massive flywheels that are WAY too heavy and large for this application, and that combined especially with 5.7 liters of TPI torque makes for a bad combo.

The reason I want to keep the 282 is mainly that it's very lightweight, only 85 lbs. dry (I think it was, maybe 95). Also, the car is already set up for it of course.

The 3200 will use a 76mm (2.8) crank and the twin-disk clutch, both of which weigh MUCH less and keep the MOI MUCH lower than a lot of the high-hp combos on here. The one disadvantage to this twin-disk in that respect is that it's designed to hold LOTS of torque and has solid hubs, and so grabs very hard without slippage, and that puts a heavier transient load on the trans than a lower-capacity clutch (like the Clutchnet 6-puck sprung-hub clutch that's in MIDTRBO now). I'm hoping the reduced MOI can cancel that out, though, while holding the higher power. Time will tell, and if the tranny goes kaput, my friend Will (username Will on here) has some ideas for the next one (and for his 282 behind his high-compression Northstar).

That setup will come together after this TGP shortblock w/Clutchnet clutch is tuned well and I have a better idea of some specifics I want to change for the 3200 like the cam, static compression, porting, etc. I won't post up my power estimate for that because I don't want to cause any controversy, especially if I don't make it.
With the TGP shortblock I'm hoping for 350whp on pump gas when tuned and with the water/air IC setup (which isn't the way it's going to leave Dave's shop... that'll be a very tuned-down version for reliability's sake). When it comes home without an IC and with the 8.7psi WG spring in it, I estimate that it'll make around 230whp, and that is, by far, as low as it should ever be.



Lotta really good info that I "knew" but didn't quite make sense, me likey. I knew torque (don't know why I said HP) was the notorious transmission killer, but I didn't know about the MOI and rotational mass issues that (if I understand correctly, and may even be an over-simplification) multiply the amount of torque actually applied to the transmission and on down the line. Kinda close in my understanding?

I think I may be as excited about this as you are. LOL

[This message has been edited by Rallaster (edited 09-15-2010).]

vortecfiero (vortecfiero@hotmail.com) MSG #174, 09-15-2010 08:41 PM
     

is that braided Teflon being used for the wastegate dump ?
keeping in mind that the waste gate only opens when things are hot...
how much heat can that braided stuff handle ?



Rallaster MSG #175, 09-15-2010 09:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by vortecfiero:



is that braided Teflon being used for the wastegate dump ?
keeping in mind that the waste gate only opens when things are hot...
how much heat can that braided stuff handle ?



I thought the W/G opened when the manifold pressure got to a certain point to keep the intake pressure constant...


bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #176, 09-16-2010 06:06 AM
      That is not braided teflon as in a typical AN hose. That is a hose I purchased specifically used for a wastegate dump. We had to modify it to fit, but it will be fine. The inside is a flexible metal pipe. The outside has the braided hose on it.
Dave


fieroguru MSG #177, 09-16-2010 08:37 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

That is not braided teflon as in a typical AN hose. That is a hose I purchased specifically used for a wastegate dump. We had to modify it to fit, but it will be fine. The inside is a flexible metal pipe. The outside has the braided hose on it.
Dave


That looks similar to the factroy EGR tubes used on the 96+ SBC and 4.3's... but probably a larger diameter.


87_special MSG #178, 09-16-2010 11:22 PM
      Just read thru your build thread. This a very well built car so far. At the rate youre going Im sure it will continue to improve. The Haus really does amazing work with so much attention to detail. That exhaust is amazing! The turbo setup is exactly how i would have liked to do mine if i only had the resources (time, money, patience).

Im running the same Clutchnet setup on my 3500T. It holds well but can be a little pedal heavy in stop and go traffic, also chatters a little when cold. Personally I'd save that twin-disk setup for your "future" build. It probably wont be very streetable and harder on the trans than a single disk, sprug hub setup.

Have you researched using a 2.8 crank in a 3500 block? Im not sure of the compatability. I have always wanted to build a destroked 3400 (which i think is a 3.0L) that could handle 8K and lots of boost. Good luck with the 3200 it will be a beast if you do it. Keep in mind the HM282 doesnt shift well above 6500rpms. I believe 7k is about the limit. A HM284 would work great at high rpm's but is kinda hard to find nowdays.

My setup definatly isnt as nice but it works. I originally built it this way to fit around a 3100/4t60E. Then had engine problems so swap to a 3500. Then had trans failure so i swapped to a fwd 5 speed.

[I have a spare 3500 UIM for sale just incase your interested ]

JoeCooley



Bridgetown MSG #179, 09-17-2010 02:10 AM
      87 check your PM's

ALLTRBO MSG #180, 09-24-2010 10:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 87_special:

Just read thru your build thread. This a very well built car so far. At the rate youre going Im sure it will continue to improve. The Haus really does amazing work with so much attention to detail. That exhaust is amazing! The turbo setup is exactly how i would have liked to do mine if i only had the resources (time, money, patience).

Im running the same Clutchnet setup on my 3500T. It holds well but can be a little pedal heavy in stop and go traffic, also chatters a little when cold. Personally I'd save that twin-disk setup for your "future" build. It probably wont be very streetable and harder on the trans than a single disk, sprug hub setup.

Have you researched using a 2.8 crank in a 3500 block? Im not sure of the compatability. I have always wanted to build a destroked 3400 (which i think is a 3.0L) that could handle 8K and lots of boost. Good luck with the 3200 it will be a beast if you do it. Keep in mind the HM282 doesnt shift well above 6500rpms. I believe 7k is about the limit. A HM284 would work great at high rpm's but is kinda hard to find nowdays.

My setup definatly isnt as nice but it works. I originally built it this way to fit around a 3100/4t60E. Then had engine problems so swap to a 3500. Then had trans failure so i swapped to a fwd 5 speed.

[I have a spare 3500 UIM for sale just incase your interested ]

JoeCooley



Cool! Thanks for chiming in. Do you have a thread about your car or can you give more info? I'd like to hear all about it. How did the 3100 compare to the 3500? Turbo specs? Boost level? Spool time? Tuning? C'mon, give it up!

I do expect the Clutchnet clutch to behave just how you described, thanks for the confirmation. It'll hold everything the TGP shortblock can throw at it, so I definitely don't plan on swapping to the twin-disk until I install the 3200. You're correct, that clutch is going to be a wild beast, it'll be hard to tame, but necessary. My only major concern with it is the instant clamping between shifts, that does indeed put more transient loading through the tranny. However, the MOI is going to be insanely low with this setup, and more-so because I'll be upgrading to the aluminum pressure plate to save even more weight. I'm hoping that this will make up for the slight slippage that organic single disk clutches have.

Yes, the 2.8 crank will drop right into the 3500 block, as will the other 60V6 cranks. The difference lies in the stroke (of course) and the rod journal diameter, which is okay since I won't be using any of the 3500 rotating assembly.
WOT-Tech sells Diamond forged pistons for the 3400, and can order them .100" over. That .100 will make up for the larger bore of the 3500 block plus an additional clean-up bore of about .020". It will come out to 3199cc's which isn't much less than the 3350cc's of the "3400", but it will love to rev higher.

The reason for using oversize 3400 pistons instead of 3500 pistons is that the wrist-pin heights are different between the two. The 3400 pin height sits perfect with the 76mm stroke to throw in a set of (very stout) off-the-shelf 5.85" small-journal small block Chevy rods. Those will need to be narrowed slightly to fit the 60V6 crank journal width and a bushing added to the small end to match the 3400 pin diameter. Both of those are simple machine operations that any decent machine shop can do on the cheap.
Slightly playing around with the Cometic MLS head gasket thicknesses along with the deck height (depending on whether or not it'll need to be decked) will net me around an 8.7:1 SCR with the "9.5:1" Diamond pistons (their rating is for a stock 3400 stroke. Destroking an engine will lower the SCR by the same percentage as the reduced stroke).
The 2.8 crank must be from a DIS 2.8 because of the internal crank trigger. The earlier one (like the stock Fiero 2.8) can be used, but to run DIS with it an external crank trigger setup must be used.

The 282 in stock form doesn't like to shift very high, but the reduced MOI of the clutch and smaller crank will raise the limit because the synchros don't have to work as hard to slow down the momentum at those RPM's, and that momentum decrease drops off the RPM's quicker anyway, reducing the synchros need to 'pull down' the RPM itself. Will has a few tricks up his sleeve as well, he's VERY familiar with the inner workings of the 282. Between these mods, I think 7500rpm shifts shouldn't be a problem and I'm hoping it might work to 8000, because the 3200 sure will with the right valvetrain, cam, and porting.

Thanks but no thanks on the spare 3500 UIM, I'm keeping the custom modified 3100 UIM. I hear the 3100/3400 UIM's don't flow any less than the 3500's, they're just a bit more peaky than the 3500's. At any rate, I plan on getting it ported so it'll flow very very well.

Thanks again for the comments!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-24-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #181, 09-24-2010 10:51 PM
      In other news, I just received my new Pioneer class-D amp for the shallow-mount Pioneer subs I have.

http://www.amazon.com/Pione...d=1285382063&sr=1-41

(I got it at 30% off with a code for select Pioneer products from Amazon. If anyone is interested in the discount code... just ask)

It puts out 400 watts RMS at 2ohms, which the 10's will be at when wired in parallel (and so 200rms each). That'll absolutely pound with 2 10's right behind the seats. All that amp in a svelte 6 lb package. That's the beauty of class-D (digital) amps. While not perfectly 'audiophile-clean' like a regular analog amp, they're a LOT smaller and lighter and create a LOT less heat for the same output. I hooked this amp up to my "temporary" home-car setup and it pounds hard at only 200 watts into one (home audio) 10" and is plenty clean enough for me.

I've been going back and forth over and over about what I'm going to do about audio between MIDTRBO and the Camaro. I'm torn. I LOVE the bass, but it'll all add weight to the Fiero which I'm desperately trying to avoid. I was thinking about one 8" under the dash, or two 8's behind the seats, or the two 10's behind the seat. At this point I'm leaning toward the 10's again because I will love how they sound/feel, though they're the biggest and heaviest. :/

/end Lunesta inspired rambles.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-24-2010).]

Rallaster MSG #182, 09-24-2010 11:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

technical speak





I wish I had the knowledge to understand even half of what you said. Whoa.


87_special MSG #183, 09-25-2010 12:51 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:


Cool! Thanks for chiming in. Do you have a thread about your car or can you give more info? I'd like to hear all about it. How did the 3100 compare to the 3500? Turbo specs? Boost level? Spool time? Tuning? C'mon, give it up!

I do expect the Clutchnet clutch to behave just how you described, thanks for the confirmation. It'll hold everything the TGP shortblock can throw at it, so I definitely don't plan on swapping to the twin-disk until I install the 3200. You're correct, that clutch is going to be a wild beast, it'll be hard to tame, but necessary. My only major concern with it is the instant clamping between shifts, that does indeed put more transient loading through the tranny. However, the MOI is going to be insanely low with this setup, and more-so because I'll be upgrading to the aluminum pressure plate to save even more weight. I'm hoping that this will make up for the slight slippage that organic single disk clutches have.

Yes, the 2.8 crank will drop right into the 3500 block, as will the other 60V6 cranks. The difference lies in the stroke (of course) and the rod journal diameter, which is okay since I won't be using any of the 3500 rotating assembly.
WOT-Tech sells Diamond forged pistons for the 3400, and can order them .100" over. That .100 will make up for the larger bore of the 3500 block plus an additional clean-up bore of about .020". It will come out to 3199cc's which isn't much less than the 3350cc's of the "3400", but it will love to rev higher.

The reason for using oversize 3400 pistons instead of 3500 pistons is that the wrist-pin heights are different between the two. The 3400 pin height sits perfect with the 76mm stroke to throw in a set of (very stout) off-the-shelf 5.85" small-journal small block Chevy rods. Those will need to be narrowed slightly to fit the 60V6 crank journal width and a bushing added to the small end to match the 3400 pin diameter. Both of those are simple machine operations that any decent machine shop can do on the cheap.
Slightly playing around with the Cometic MLS head gasket thicknesses along with the deck height (depending on whether or not it'll need to be decked) will net me around an 8.7:1 SCR with the "9.5:1" Diamond pistons (their rating is for a stock 3400 stroke. Destroking an engine will lower the SCR by the same percentage as the reduced stroke).
The 2.8 crank must be from a DIS 2.8 because of the internal crank trigger. The earlier one (like the stock Fiero 2.8) can be used, but to run DIS with it an external crank trigger setup must be used.

The 282 in stock form doesn't like to shift very high, but the reduced MOI of the clutch and smaller crank will raise the limit because the synchros don't have to work as hard to slow down the momentum at those RPM's, and that momentum decrease drops off the RPM's quicker anyway, reducing the synchros need to 'pull down' the RPM itself. Will has a few tricks up his sleeve as well, he's VERY familiar with the inner workings of the 282. Between these mods, I think 7500rpm shifts shouldn't be a problem and I'm hoping it might work to 8000, because the 3200 sure will with the right valvetrain, cam, and porting.

Thanks but no thanks on the spare 3500 UIM, I'm keeping the custom modified 3100 UIM. I hear the 3100/3400 UIM's don't flow any less than the 3500's, they're just a bit more peaky than the 3500's. At any rate, I plan on getting it ported so it'll flow very very well.

Thanks again for the comments!



I never got around to posting a build thread. The 3100 ran pretty good for about two weeks till I had some bad valvetrain issues caused by my ex-friend machinist who decided to fall in love with Crack while building my heads. Long story short, I didnt get to push the car too hard w/ 3100 in it. The $400 3500 was cheaper than new valves and gaskets and was an excuse to upgrade. The 3500 has been a blast though and is night and day with the 5 speed swap. The turbo is a Toyota CT26 w/ T04E compressor wheel upgrade. Its a little small for the 3500 but would be good for a tgp 3.1L or a 3100. It spools quick! I hit full boost (6psi haha) at like 2800 - 3000rpm. Lots of low-end torque that's for sure. I'm running obd1 ('7730), tune with TunerProRt and a Moates Ostrich2.0 and run $8F code.

Maybe try and find an Al flywheel and crankpulley to reduce MOI and rotating mass. I still dont think that clutch is going to be fun to drive. Thats just my own bias though. You may be able to handle it with ease.

Good luck with your 3200 build. That's a great plan for your build. It seems you have already researched it quite well. I really would love to build a small stroke / big bore 660. Maybe one day I'll build my 3L destroker and stuff it in a Chevette or something FR oriented and lightweight.

I'll keep my eye on this build. I'm curious to see how it turns out.

JoeCooley



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #184, 09-25-2010 08:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 87_special:
Good luck with your 3200 build. That's a great plan for your build. It seems you have already researched it quite well. I really would love to build a small stroke / big bore 660. Maybe one day I'll build my 3L destroker and stuff it in a Chevette or something FR oriented and lightweight.


I think a BMW E30 would be a great platform for a V6/60. The V6 would move the CG back compared to BMW's inliner (the cars are pretty front-heavy stock), is probably lighter (when equipped with aluminum heads), and fits better in the narrow engine compartment than a V8 because of the narrower bank angle.

And unlike Chevettes, E30's handle well.

Of course BMW's M20 engine is a monster when it's boosted, even if stroking it from 2.5 to 2.8 is the 13th Labor of Hercules.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 09-25-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #185, 09-26-2010 07:06 PM
      Will is on a BMW kick, just ignore him. (Actually, he's dern right)

 
quote
Originally posted by Rallaster:


I wish I had the knowledge to understand even half of what you said. Whoa.

LOL, I didn't think I was saying anything too out of the ordinary. I'll explain any/all of it if you want. I could go on forever! If you want to get really confused, talk advanced engine and suspension theory with Will up there!


 
quote
Originally posted by 87_special:
I never got around to posting a build thread. The 3100 ran pretty good for about two weeks till I had some bad valvetrain issues caused by my ex-friend machinist who decided to fall in love with Crack while building my heads. Long story short, I didnt get to push the car too hard w/ 3100 in it. The $400 3500 was cheaper than new valves and gaskets and was an excuse to upgrade. The 3500 has been a blast though and is night and day with the 5 speed swap. The turbo is a Toyota CT26 w/ T04E compressor wheel upgrade. Its a little small for the 3500 but would be good for a tgp 3.1L or a 3100. It spools quick! I hit full boost (6psi haha) at like 2800 - 3000rpm. Lots of low-end torque that's for sure. I'm running obd1 ('7730), tune with TunerProRt and a Moates Ostrich2.0 and run $8F code.

Maybe try and find an Al flywheel and crankpulley to reduce MOI and rotating mass. I still dont think that clutch is going to be fun to drive. Thats just my own bias though. You may be able to handle it with ease.

Good luck with your 3200 build. That's a great plan for your build. It seems you have already researched it quite well. I really would love to build a small stroke / big bore 660. Maybe one day I'll build my 3L destroker and stuff it in a Chevette or something FR oriented and lightweight.

I'll keep my eye on this build. I'm curious to see how it turns out.

JoeCooley

Crack? Heads? Get it? ...sorry, that was bad.
Ouch, that really sucks! (for you and him.) Thanks for the info. Sounds like the 3500 was the way to go. 6 psi at 2800-3000 sounds like a slow spool to me, heh! I can't wait to find out how the S258 spools on the 3.1. I might have to go with Quad4 gearing or something, heh. That would be real bad for traction once it does spool, though.

Nice tuning setup, sounds familiar. I'll be switching to Code59, though. It's WAY more documented and supports 3-bar which I'll need.

The twin-disk setup comes with everything, flywheel and all. It has to match. While the flywheel isn't aluminum, it does have a low MOI for the same reason as the rest of it, the weight is kept toward the center. I don't think I'd gain anything useful from a smaller crank pulley, but I don't think anything else will be needed! Compared to the rotating mass of the current setup (and yours too), it will be very very 'light'.

Don't let me fool you, I'm very nervous about the manners of the clutch. I think it'll be very difficult to deal with (if I didn't make that clear yet). It'll help if Will and I make a larger slave cylinder like we're talking about, that will increase the available throw of the clutch pedal, making the engagement point somewhat less instant.
Even still, from what I understand, the analogy of a lightswitch is no joke. The Clutch Masters tech told me I'll have to spend many hours in a parking lot just to be able to drive it somewhat competently without stalling it everywhere. He did say that it's not so bad once you get used to it, but that takes a little while and it's still a lot rougher than any organic single will ever be. Though, this one has sintered bronze disks which are said to be less impossible than the sintered iron disks. They'll hold 'less' torque than the iron, but they'll hold every bit that I'll ever make.
I really don't want to have to go there, but I don't know of any 'regular' clutch for the 282 that will even come close to handling the 3200 on 30psi, and 30psi isn't negotiable. That will be fun to drive.

Thanks for the GL on the 3200. I've researched most of what I can research for now, but the current setup will dial me in further. I can't wait!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 09-26-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #186, 09-26-2010 07:17 PM
      In other other news, I'm looking for new wheels. I'm honing in on 17's for the front and either 17's or 18's for the rear. The keywords here are "light", "staggered" and "droolicious". I love the look of the VW wheels, but they aren't quite what I need. They'll be up for sale along with the Yoko S-drives when I find the new wheels.

Help me out here if you can...
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/082889.html

OBTW, new sig pic, I finally made my favorite pic sig-sized...



bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #187, 10-02-2010 01:46 PM
      Here are a few pictures to update this thread. The only things we have left to accomplish on this build are the wiring harness, refabricate the belt drive (I'm not happy with the end result), breather/pcv system, and battery. Also, we need to secure a few items and do some testing.











ALLTRBO MSG #188, 10-04-2010 11:59 PM
      Dave, I sent an email. Looking good for the most part.

I found out something annoying the other day. I can't get personalized "MIDTRBO" tags because my car is registered as historic. Small sacrifice, though, for getting to skip inspection and emissions altogether.
Ah well, not a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, just kind of a bummer since I've planned that from the beginning.

I've got kind of a secret R&D project that's very cool that I'm thinking heavily about implementing which will greatly benefit MIDTRBO in various areas, as well as others' builds. That's just a teaser for you... Full details if I go ahead, but it'll be a little while because it'll be moderately expensive.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-07-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #189, 10-09-2010 08:05 PM
      Today I went to the MAFOA show at Lititz. I almost forgot how small Fieros are! It's been WAY too long, heh. It was nice meeting the 5 or so people I met there (tardiness and social anxiety ), and there were some really nice Fieros.

Afterward I drove over to Harrisburg and picked up the Quarter Master twin-disk setup (with the extra parts for a triple disk) from Coinage. The whole twin setup only weighs 16 lbs! IIRC, that's about the weight of a stock Getrag flywheel without the rest of the clutch, AND the weight of this one is all located near the axis of rotation. I'm going to shave even more weight off of that by upgrading to the aluminum pressure plate. That 3200 should rev like a literbike!

Oh, and here's a bump for the people I mentioned this thread to that sounded interested. *bump*

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-23-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #190, 10-23-2010 05:17 PM
      Going through withdrawals again/still so I just have to bump my thread.
It should be very close now, when I talked to Dave last week he was planning on spending all day last Thursday working on it.

If anyone wants my 11-second AWD Talon (that needs work), act now and you can get it for $2000. You won't find that deal anywhere else. The tranny build alone cost $2400, and that was only about 2000 miles ago.

My beater truck is also for sale, practically for free, just needs the top-end gaskets replaced (which I have). I desperately need to make room.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/078820.html

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-23-2010).]

Rallaster MSG #191, 10-23-2010 05:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Going through withdrawals again/still so I just have to bump my thread.
It should be very close now, when I talked to Dave last week he was planning on spending all day last Thursday working on it.

If anyone wants my 11-second AWD Talon (that needs work), act now and you can get it for $2000. You won't find that deal anywhere else. The tranny build alone cost $2400, and that was only about 2000 miles ago.

My beater truck is also for sale, practically for free, just needs the top-end gaskets replaced (which I have). I desperately need to make room.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum6/HTML/078820.html



I'm anxious for you to get your Fiero back for you.. LMAO

I buy your Talon if I had the money, sounds like it could be a blast to drive.


ALLTRBO MSG #192, 10-24-2010 10:54 PM
      LOL

Yeah, the Talon is something else. 6000rpm AWD launches are a real kick in the butt, then it just keeps you planted into the seat. The front end gets real light through first and second and it exhibits a bit of torque steer even though half the power is going to the rear. It also handles very well.
It's a shame that I'm done messing with it, but the serious lack of torque below 3000rpm and that blatty inline-4 exhaust noise killed the deal, I never got over it.
Regardless, I had an amazing 6 years daily driving it, lots of fun.

(Edited for coherency)

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-25-2010).]

elitopr MSG #193, 10-24-2010 11:10 PM
      the plenum throttle to the batery side nice idea!!!!!!!!!!! great

[This message has been edited by elitopr (edited 10-24-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #194, 10-27-2010 12:52 AM
      Thanks. I came up with that idea early on, but decided it would be too difficult to re-angle the throttle neck because cast aluminum is difficult to weld properly, so I forgot to even mention it to Dave as a possibility. Then Dave thought of it later on, and when I expressed my concerns he informed me about his super-welder guy who could do it without a problem. Done!

So we both thank you because it was both of our idea. I'm just glad it worked out that way.


KurtAKX MSG #195, 10-27-2010 06:14 PM
      How come you guys didn't put an oil filler valve cover on the rear bank? Wouldn't that make life a lot easier?

ALLTRBO MSG #196, 10-27-2010 06:28 PM
      Dogbone clearance issues. I don't mind it being up front.

amflyer MSG #197, 10-27-2010 07:30 PM
      Why can't you get personalized plates I have them on my indy and they are historic tags! Someone is giving you wrong information.



ALLTRBO MSG #198, 10-27-2010 07:34 PM
      Oh, hmm. The website said I was "unable to get personalized tags on this vehicle" when I tried to for the Fiero and the truck (both historic). It let me go forward with it when I tried it out on my 'regular' cars. I'll go bug the MVA about it, thanks for the info.

ALLTRBO MSG #199, 10-28-2010 10:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:
I've been going back and forth over and over about what I'm going to do about audio between MIDTRBO and the Camaro. I'm torn. I LOVE the bass, but it'll all add weight to the Fiero which I'm desperately trying to avoid. I was thinking about one 8" under the dash, or two 8's behind the seats, or the two 10's behind the seat. At this point I'm leaning toward the 10's again because I will love how they sound/feel, though they're the biggest and heaviest. :/

And now I'm back to the very slim 8's behind the seats. I think about weight and I want thin and light 8's, then I here my home audio system and really want the 10's. Then I think about the extra weight, and...

*sigh*


Rallaster MSG #200, 10-28-2010 11:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

And now I'm back to the very slim 8's behind the seats. I think about weight and I want thin and light 8's, then I here my home audio system and really want the 10's. Then I think about the extra weight, and...

*sigh*


You want 10's. The additional weight is going to be negligible with the amount of power your Turbo 6 is going to be putting to the pavement.

/concern


ALLTRBO MSG #201, 11-07-2010 11:52 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rallaster:
You want 10's. The additional weight is going to be negligible with the amount of power your Turbo 6 is going to be putting to the pavement.
/concern


It's not just the power/weight ratio, I'm more concerned about the handling. While the weight will be fairly centralized, it's still extra weight, and that puts more stress on everything.

The Pioneer shallow 10's I have weigh 25lbs for both, and the extra-shallow 8's I'm looking at weigh 8lbs for both. I guessing the boxes for the 10's would weigh about 10 lbs extra for both, compared to the boxes for the 8's. That's ~27 lbs total. While not seeming like much, it all adds up, I'm adding a lot of weight to this car, but trying to keep the increase minimal. Leaving out subs altogether is not an option, and my symmetry obsession states that I have to have one on each side.
The 8's are also shallower so would save me about an inch behind each seat.

Here are the 10's I have-
http://www.pioneerelectroni...ers/Shallow/TS-SW251

And here are the 8's, they are direct replacements for the underseat subs on some BMW's. Lots of people are very happy (and impressed) with these subs. (Click on SWS-8 down at the bottom)
http://www.earthquakesound....virtuemart&Itemid=82

Either pair would be using the Pioneer amp I bought for the car. It would overdrive the 8's if I let it, but I wouldn't, and there's probably a decent bit of error margin built into the subs anyway. For the 10's wired in parallel (2-ohms), it is the perfect amp.

I'm mostly typing this out for my future reference, it helps to have it laid out in front of me, but also for anyone interested.
I'll decide eventually.

As for MIDTRBO updates, I'm waiting for Dave to recover from the apparently insane amount of BMW (etc.) work that he's been getting in.




tonycampbell86gt (tony.campbell@adelphia.net) MSG #202, 11-07-2010 06:46 PM
      I have one of the SWS-10's behind the passenger's seat of my 86 GT with about 150 watts on it, and it slams pretty good for such a small box.

Tony


ALLTRBO MSG #203, 11-08-2010 08:07 PM
      Cool, thanks for chiming in. What is your box's internal volume?

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-08-2010).]

tonycampbell86gt (tony.campbell@adelphia.net) MSG #204, 11-10-2010 07:57 PM
      Roughly .5 cubic feet. Outside dimensions are 27" tall, 20" wide, and 3.5" thick.

I haven't had much time to fool with it, but this winter I am going to build a box to put it in the factory location. With the shallow depth of the sub, I might be able to get it flush with the bottom of the dash.

Tony


ALLTRBO MSG #205, 11-13-2010 11:02 PM
      Thanks Tony, that gives me a good physical comparison.


Well there's not much to do while sitting here in pain, so I figured I'd digitally load up Amida's Fi 512TR nose and Whodeanie's production F355 bumper onto my Fiero (though the color is still 'wrong' as previously mentioned).
I used pics of a real 512TR and F355 for this PS.
With some design of matching sideskirts, I think these will look fantastic together.

I like it. Lemme know what you think.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-14-2010).]

Rallaster MSG #206, 11-14-2010 10:58 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Thanks Tony, that gives me a good physical comparison.


Well there's not much to do while sitting here in pain, so I figured I'd digitally load up Amida's Fi 512TR nose and Whodeanie's production F355 bumper onto my Fiero (though the color is still 'wrong' as previously mentioned).
I used pics of a real 512TR and F355 for this PS.
With some design of matching sideskirts, I think these will look fantastic together.

I like it. Lemme know what you think.







dobey MSG #207, 11-14-2010 11:20 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by tonycampbell86gt:

Roughly .5 cubic feet. Outside dimensions are 27" tall, 20" wide, and 3.5" thick.

I haven't had much time to fool with it, but this winter I am going to build a box to put it in the factory location. With the shallow depth of the sub, I might be able to get it flush with the bottom of the dash.

Tony


Wow. The SWS-10 looks like it wants 3x that for box volume. And the SWS-8 is still rated at about 1.0 cu ft. But with only 0.5 cu ft available, the 8 would probably sound 100x better than the 10 does.

But this is why I tell people that depending on where in the passenger cabin you mount the sub, a 6.5" or 8" is really the largest you want to go.


tonycampbell86gt (tony.campbell@adelphia.net) MSG #208, 11-14-2010 02:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:


Wow. The SWS-10 looks like it wants 3x that for box volume. And the SWS-8 is still rated at about 1.0 cu ft. But with only 0.5 cu ft available, the 8 would probably sound 100x better than the 10 does.

But this is why I tell people that depending on where in the passenger cabin you mount the sub, a 6.5" or 8" is really the largest you want to go.


Odd. The documentation with the sub actually calls for a minimum sealed volume of 0.38, and a maximum sealed volume of 0.75 for the 10".

Tony



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #209, 11-14-2010 03:07 PM
      There are a whole lot of compromises in both driver and box design to accomodate small boxes, not the least of which is that of proper volume. A given driver might produce acceptable results in a box that small, but the proper design based on Thiele-Small parameters to give a good response curve would have a much greater volume.

As I recall from my box building days, 1/2 cf is a tiny box even for an 8" driver.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-14-2010).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #210, 11-23-2010 08:08 AM
      just a quick update (should have been done two weeks ago, but we have been going nuts here). Anyway, we fabricated a custom battery mount using Steven's battery spec. He wanted the battery as far down and close to the windshield as possible, so here is what we came up with.





and this is what I see when I come home.....I think my dog is saying I don't spend enough time with her.





ALLTRBO MSG #211, 11-25-2010 08:36 AM
      Happy Thanksgiving all!

Thanks Dave.
It's about time for the car get some JUICE again. Just please make sure the battery stays fully charged in the meantime, I want it to last many years. It'll be on a tender full time when in my garage.

LOL @ your dog and cat. That is totally a LOLCAT worthy pic, you should submit it!

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
There are a whole lot of compromises in both driver and box design to accommodate small boxes, not the least of which is that of proper volume. A given driver might produce acceptable results in a box that small, but the proper design based on Thiele-Small parameters to give a good response curve would have a much greater volume.

As I recall from my box building days, 1/2 cf is a tiny box even for an 8" driver.

The graph for my 10's is available on Pioneer's website, along with other detailed specifications, though I don't feel like looking it up right now. I don't remember if the documentation is available online for the SWS-8's, but I'm sure I can obtain that info easily enough.
I'm not going for an optimal system in this car (that requires center seating for me to want to even bother), just something that will sound plenty decent, and it will. I have several built in high and low pass crossover options as well as a built in EQ to tune in a reasonable bass curve for any of my options.


I'm annoyed. Of course after I ordered all of my 2 1/16" auxiliary gauges, Speedhut comes out with a 4 inch "quad gauge" displaying 4 of the exact gauges that I bought, but in a perfect package to make my instrument cluster symmetrical (symmetry is next to godliness). I'd have a 4" quad on the left, 4" GPS speedo on the right, and 4" tach right in the center. Add one more 2 1/16" gauge to my current package (oil temp sounds about right), and I'll have exactly three left over to mount into a 3 gauge plate located in the factory aux gauge housing (boost, WB AFR and oil temp). 3 in the cluster and 3 in the housing, that's also symmetrical by the numbers. Have I mentioned that I'm obsessed with symmetry?

Here it is (pictured here exactly as I'd order it)...

http://www.speedhut.com/cus...-auto_number-896.htm



I'm selling my 4 equivalent 2 1/16" gauges for $300 total. That's an insane steal for all 4, brand new in boxes.
Full retail for all 4 is just under $500, and still just under $400 at 20% off with their Thanksgiving sale! The actual gauges are pictured on page 4.
I have to sell them before I get the quad. I'll be posting these in The Mall. Anyone interested?

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 11-25-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #212, 11-25-2010 08:39 AM
      Oh, and I made a new sig. Let me know what you think!



Daredevil05 MSG #213, 11-25-2010 09:13 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Oh, and I made a new sig. Let me know what you think!



It would look better in color and a little sharper.


Daredevil05 MSG #214, 11-25-2010 09:17 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Oh, and I made a new sig. Let me know what you think!



It would look better in color and a little sharper. Try the heatwave look. Ever looked across a parking lot on a hot day and see that it looks kind of funny? That would be cool.

[This message has been edited by Daredevil05 (edited 11-25-2010).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #215, 11-25-2010 12:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

http://www.speedhut.com/cus...-auto_number-896.htm



I'm selling my 4 equivalent 2 1/16" gauges for $300 total. That's an insane steal for all 4, brand new in boxes.
Full retail for all 4 is just under $500, and still just under $400 at 20% off with their Thanksgiving sale! The actual gauges are pictured on page 4.
I have to sell them before I get the quad. I'll be posting these in The Mall. Anyone interested?



Now that I'm driving my car again, I'm thinking of things like instrumentation. The stock tach won't cut it anymore, and I'm tired of the engine instrumentation not being *accurate*. That quad looks like a really good idea.

Doesn't look like they have digital speedometers, though. An analog speedometer is a waste of instrument panel space, IMNSHO. I'd much rather have a digital speedo/odo/trip (maybe as part of a diagnostic display) surrounded by indicator lights than use that space for an analog speedo and have to locate the lights elsewhere.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-25-2010).]

ALLTRBO MSG #216, 11-28-2010 03:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daredevil05:
It would look better in color and a little sharper. Try the heatwave look. Ever looked across a parking lot on a hot day and see that it looks kind of funny? That would be cool.

The blurry look did look better in color, I put it in b&w afterward and it took away most of the depth. That does make me want to try something else. I like the heatwave idea, I'll have to try that when I'm feeling miserable again.
I have it in black and white because it isn't finished yet, and so it is the stock color currently (which I dislike) but I don't want to put in the PS'd color(s) that it will be, because it isn't yet.
Thanks for the feedback.

 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Now that I'm driving my car again, I'm thinking of things like instrumentation. The stock tach won't cut it anymore, and I'm tired of the engine instrumentation not being *accurate*. That quad looks like a really good idea.

Doesn't look like they have digital speedometers, though. An analog speedometer is a waste of instrument panel space, IMNSHO. I'd much rather have a digital speedo/odo/trip (maybe as part of a diagnostic display) surrounded by indicator lights than use that space for an analog speedo and have to locate the lights elsewhere.

As I've mentioned before, I can't recommend Speedhut enough. They are everything I want in a company and product.

You can get various standalone digital speedos (or make your own) and I'd like one as well, but I don't think the analog is bad. They also make them in 3 3/8's and even 2 5/8's to take up less room. If you get the Revolution series gauges then they all come with integrated settable hi/low warning lights so you wouldn't need that room. All you'd need is a couple small spaces for LED's for things like the Check Engine light and washer fluid level or whatever, and that's cake. You can even get some of their speedometers with integrated turn signal indicators and high-beam indicator. IIRC you didn't want a GPS speedo, but they do come with a digital odometer and trip odometer along with peak speed recall and other performance measurements too.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #217, 11-28-2010 08:53 PM
      Can't beat a ticket with a GPS speedometer...

ALLTRBO MSG #218, 11-29-2010 11:30 AM
      You're in VA, you can't beat a ticket anyway.

87_special MSG #219, 11-30-2010 01:46 PM
      Any updates? Any more pics from the Haus?



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #220, 11-30-2010 06:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

You're in VA, you can't beat a ticket anyway.


Can and have.
With a stick, too.


ALLTRBO MSG #221, 12-05-2010 11:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 87_special:
Any updates? Any more pics from the Haus?

He's been slammed with his normal business. I'm hoping for updates soon, too. The car is very close.
Pretty much all that's left other than a couple odds and ends is to combine the two wiring harnesses (stock Fiero and stock TGP) to make my actual harness.

I really want it back now so I can get to driving, tuning, and installing the water/air IC setup while it's cold out (and now that my broken truck will be gone), the cold temps are very helpful to quell detonation while I'm tuning (It should also be pretty darn quick like that). That'll nearly complete the "Stage I" powertrain, then it's on to finish the "Stage I" phase of the body which will include some slightly more extreme mods than the usual. I plan on passing it on to Whodeanie to complete the time consuming parts (fiberglass work and a FULL DEPTH extractor tray/hood.) After that it'll head back over to Waldorf, MD to lildevil's paint booth for its new coating of awesome. During all of the above, the interior will be slowly updated to a jet black theme with a few blue contrasting bits and "comfy" reclinable racing seats, and the Speedhut gauges.

Once all that's done I'll dive back into the suspension that will hopefully have my custom parts designed, produced, test fitted, and ready to install by then. I'm serious about the handling, I won't accept any of the 'usual' mods that compromise the decent geometry that the '88 already has, instead I'll make it better and stronger.

That will complete the car's "Stage I", and it should be a blast and well balanced in every way, definitely on par with or beyond the performance levels of the 'good' modern sportscars.
I'll then start "Stage II", that's when it gets serious.

Oh, and I tweaked my sig slightly this morning, just a few minor things that were bugging me that I had time to get to.




bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #222, 12-06-2010 01:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 87_special:

Any updates? Any more pics from the Haus?



If you don't hear from me, that is typically good news.....it means I'm working on the car.
We slowed down a bit, so I'm spending about three hours a day working on Midtrbo. We are doing the wiring harness install now, along with other odds and ends. The BOV has been installed. The coil cover has been fabricated and powdercoated wrinkle black. The PCV system has been modified. The vacuum system is almost completed with the exception of the turbo hoses. The decklid has been notched.
Anyway, I'm billing Steven for this time, so let me get back to work.
Dave


ALLTRBO MSG #223, 12-11-2010 02:15 PM
     

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #224, 12-13-2010 07:38 PM
      battery cables fabricated and installed. More work on the wiring harness has been done. I'll post up some pics when I get a sec.
Dave


bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #225, 12-14-2010 06:17 PM
      spent 6 hours on the wiring harness today. The plenum and throttle body have been permenantly mounted with gaskets. Fuel injector wiring is completed with master plug. Most of the engine sensors have been wired up with new ecm terminals. Located the vss plug and terminal kit for the impulse sender (it will be delivered Thursday).
Other than that, I should have the wiring harness completed this week.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 12-14-2010).]

1988holleyformula MSG #226, 12-16-2010 09:35 AM
      Now we can find this thread!

ALLTRBO MSG #227, 12-17-2010 07:52 PM
      Hey, thanks to whoever nominated this for TCZ.

I have no time right now to post more but as you can see Dave is doing a great job and it's nearly ready to fire up!


ALLTRBO MSG #228, 12-21-2010 09:50 PM
      Edited for... uhh... grammar and punctuation. (IOW, a translation )

The Lunesta has mostly kicked in tonight, but I thought I'd mention one of my other car situations before I head off to bed.
I got my AWD Talon 'running' after 4 years to use as a winter beater because they seem to like putting down more SALT than SNOW.
Man that Talon screams. It'll run away from the 320hp Camaro like it was a slow, fat pig (oh wait...), and that's on really low boost for the car (12 psi; I used to run 21 psi daily) while barely idling on 2 cylinders, having boost/vacuum leaks, and something that could only loosely be called a 'tune'. I cranked up the boost, it'll put that Camaro in reverse! GOOD GAWSH. I hope the Fiero can at least hold a candle to it even before I go much further with the Fiero (other than the W/A IC install and more boost). Either way, 60V6's have a MUCH nicer exhaust note, this will have MUCH more low end, and the Fiero has the turning radius of a go-kart compared to the Talon's annoying truck-like turns. The Talon makes for a good stripped down racecar for sure, but it's shortcomings have become too much to live with day to day. The Fiero should be great all around... well that's the goal anyway.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 12-28-2010).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #229, 12-31-2010 01:36 PM
      Wiring harness is completed. We test fired the engine and it starts and runs pretty decent. I'll update more within the next month....Steven will be making a trip out to the Haus in January and we can get this project finished up. There is not much left to do other than tidy up a few things and I want to fabricate a new alternator bracket because the one that is on the car now just isn't making me happy.
Dave




ALLTRBO MSG #230, 12-31-2010 04:31 PM
      You guys rock.

Dave, I'll send you an email soon, as soon as I get my neighbor's fence fixed that my Talon rolled down the hill and through , and also as soon as my wife and I fix the leaky bathroom sink that caused a moldy mess underneath. I'm highly allergic to certain kinds of mold.

My driveway/garage is eagerly awaiting MIDTRBO's return.


ALLTRBO MSG #231, 01-01-2011 10:27 PM
      Apparently you people missed what Dave said.

IT RUNS!!!1!11!!one

Okay, now that that's out of my system...
I'll be heading up there soon, as Dave mentioned, so that I can hopefully dial the tune in enough to make it drivable. With any luck, I won't have to do anything. I will tweak a few things that I've thought about or that has changed since I burned the chip(s) at the least. Nothing major, though.

I wanted the easily swappable parts to stay stock for now so that the close-to-stock tune will be more likely to run it smoothly. With the TT IROC-Z I jumped into a lot of things right off the bat and it made it much more difficult to dial in (I never quite got there).
It's running the stock TGP code ($8F) with a few minor changes.
-A few things were tweaked in this version that I DL'd that should theoretically let it idle and coast-down better with the 5-speed, all TGP's were auto. A lot of people have used this code with manual trannies and to my knowledge not a single one of them has ironed out 'all' of the auto-to-manual stumbling issues, but hopefully this will be good enough until I switch to Code59.
-I pulled some fuel down low and added some up top (then some more) because the Gen III top end flows better. Less torque down low and more power up top...
-I pulled timing in the high-ish KPa's (amount of atmosphere being shoved in) to be very conservative for the initial shakedown.
That's about it. The changes, though minor, are a complete stab in the dark. We'll see how it works out.

I kept the TB from the 3100, it's larger than the TGP's but smaller than the 3400's. That will soon get changed out for a 3400 TB when it gets home and runs fine. I'll probably have to fiddle with acceleration enrichment (AE), but not much.
The TGP 22lb/hr injectors are installed so the base fueling won't be affected at all. Larger injectors tend to cause issues that need to be tuned out (more than just changing the injector constant). When it runs fine, I'll install the 42's. Though, I do plan on twisting the AFPR up to 55psi while at The Haus because that'll bring the flow up to about 25lb/hr, which still won't be quite enough.
If they will handle the measly 8.7 psi, they'll be on the ragged edge and might go static (100% duty cycle... held open... not the greatest thing). In that case we'll either need to keep from going WOT at all, I'll need to pull lots of timing past 5psi or so, or the 42's will have to be installed 'early'. That might work out... we'll see. For now I just want the thing to run at a relaxed pace without jerking, stumbling and/or stalling the whole way home.

More coming soon...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-01-2011).]

Charlie64 (cpviney@comcast.net) MSG #232, 01-02-2011 10:38 AM
      Your car looks great from the picture on the trailer. I currently have a 355 nose on mine, but if someone actually has a 512 nose as in your photo that would be so SWEET. The lines look much cleaner. It's taken me 7 years to get my wife to come around and accept further upgrades. Hoping to go to some Fiero meets this year. I also noticed you have Fiero leather seats from Mr. Mike's. Have you decided on Recaro seats? Charles

scott0999 (scott099@juno.com) MSG #233, 01-02-2011 11:29 AM
      I would like to suggest running code 59 over $8F. I've used both and 59 is much better. 3bar map support, closed loop WBO2, even has autotune so you can get a nice base map

excellent work sofar exhaust and everything looks great. I really like the rims too. look like their made for the car


ALLTRBO MSG #234, 01-02-2011 12:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Charlie64:
Your car looks great from the picture on the trailer. I currently have a 355 nose on mine, but if someone actually has a 512 nose as in your photo that would be so SWEET. The lines look much cleaner. It's taken me 7 years to get my wife to come around and accept further upgrades. Hoping to go to some Fiero meets this year. I also noticed you have Fiero leather seats from Mr. Mike's. Have you decided on Recaro seats? Charles

Amida is making the 512 nose, he's nearly done with the prototype. The fourth one he makes is reserved for me as I have put a deposit on it. It does look great.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/079750.html

I've decided on the Corbeau A4 seats, but my wife won't let me buy them until my Mr. Mike's are sold (go figure). I haven't been trying to sell them very hard yet as it's lower on the priority list. It'll get up there soon, though.

 
quote
Originally posted by scott0999:
I would like to suggest running code 59 over $8F. I've used both and 59 is much better. 3bar map support, closed loop WBO2, even has autotune so you can get a nice base map



 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:
...I'm having Dave to (hopefully) get it running 'reasonably enough' on my modified TGP .bin's to get home, then I'm going to throw in a 3-bar MAP and start fresh with Code59, it's a MUCH better code and WAY more documented.

...I can tune over the phone with Dave if need be, but swapping from $8F (TGP code) to Code59 is a whole different ball game.


 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:
I'll be switching to Code59, though. It's WAY more documented and supports 3-bar which I'll need.


 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:
I wanted the easily swappable parts to stay stock for now so that the close-to-stock tune will be more likely to run it smoothly. With the TT IROC-Z I jumped into a lot of things right off the bat and it made it much more difficult to dial in (I never quite got there)...

...but hopefully this will be good enough until I switch to Code59.

Thanks for the suggestion though!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-02-2011).]

scott0999 (scott099@juno.com) MSG #235, 01-02-2011 12:09 PM
      most excellent

ALLTRBO MSG #236, 01-08-2011 07:47 PM
      I just ordered the rest of the hide-away tuning suite, a "recertified" 10.1" Asus netbook to hard mount into the rear storage compartment. It's nothing special, but it'll get the job done. I also bought a solid state drive (SSD) so that it won't get killed by every small bump, and 2GB of RAM to upgrade from 1GB. With those two upgrades and the bare-bones Windows 7 Starter, it should boot and shut down dern near instantly.
It's very thin, only .9". The length and width will be a bit of a squeeze, but I'll make it work.

I'll take it up with me to the Haus with the tuning software loaded so I can give my poor old laptop (circa 2002) a rest, it's frail and has more or less turned into a desktop, heh (has over 7 years of near-daily use though, including many anti-lag AWD launches, wheel-hops, 11-second passes, numerous hard turns, rough pavement, and being dropped a couple times, etc! I only had to replace the HD once).

In other news, I had a dream last night that I got the car back and it was completely bad*ss.



ALLTRBO MSG #237, 01-29-2011 02:44 PM
      I haven't had any time for anything at all lately, but here's an update.

Dave has finished everything but the new alternator bracket, severe weather has been holding him up. After that, it's time for my visit, then he'll test it out for a little while (I think) before I pick it up.

I need to make it to Back On Holiday's place to pick up his '88 GT front inner-fenderwells, but that has proven to be absolutely impossible for the last month or so. I'd like them to be installed before the car goes out for its first drive.

I got the netbook, installed the SSD and RAM upgrade, and all is going well. Cold boot up is now 42 seconds from pressing the power button to a fully loaded desktop and ready to work. Shut down takes 9 seconds. Those are down from 1:45 and 15 seconds, respectively, with the stock HDD and RAM.

I bought a mini-camcorder that will record up to full HD (1080p), and a 16GB SD card for it. Expect many videos, starting with my visit to the Haus. It also takes still pics up to 8MP, and I shot a couple at 2MP real quick for this thread since I didn't feel like pulling out the camera.



[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-29-2011).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #238, 01-29-2011 06:00 PM
      the weather has been holding us up. Once I get caught up on the work, it snows and sets us back a few days with the workload. Our spare time is devoted to cleaning the parking lot and trying to make room for all the BMW's and Audi's that puked their engines this winter.
I should be back on track in about three weeks. I had to take another quick swap in to take the burden off a bill that I need to pay asap.
More to come...
Dave


ALLTRBO MSG #239, 02-19-2011 04:36 PM
      I'm still waiting for Dave to recover (from more than one thing), but to post something anyway:

Jetstream Blue =



Opinions?

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 02-24-2011).]

dhobbs84sc (pooface2006@hotmail.com) MSG #240, 02-19-2011 11:57 PM
      Beautiful.



1988holleyformula MSG #241, 02-20-2011 06:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

I'm still waiting for Dave to recover (from more than one thing), but to post something anyway:

Jetstream Blue =

Opinions?


You're using those VW rims correct? With this paint scheme you'd have to put that Jetstream Blue pinstripe on the lip of the rim.

edit: Page Owned!

[This message has been edited by 1988holleyformula (edited 02-20-2011).]

ALLTRBO MSG #242, 02-20-2011 08:10 PM
      I am for now, but I'll be upgrading the wheels in the future. If I went with that paint scheme I would indeed get black wheels and put rim stripes on them (and blue centers as well, at least a blue Fiero logo), but until then the VW wheels will stay as is.
The 'vette actually has the whole dish of the wheels painted, but I wouldn't have dished wheels so the (reflective) rim stripes would have to do. I think it would look good nonetheless. There is a company out there (I forget which, have to search) that makes many sizes, colors, and shades of rimstripes, I would get a set that matches up well.

My wife says that is a girly blue. LOL


madcurl (madcurl@fiero-performance.com) MSG #243, 02-20-2011 09:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

I'm still waiting for Dave to recover (from more than one thing), but to post something anyway:

Jetstream Blue =



Opinions?



It's a hard core color to pull off, but you might get away with in on a notchback. I've seen this combination on the LamboPower forum where one of the Mucielargo (in blue-but I don't know the name of the paint color) used 19/20 wheels with black centers and matching outer lip. Like the Corvette the Murcielargo is awfully long. I've never seen the combo on a shorter car.


doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #244, 02-20-2011 09:34 PM
      I like the colour combo. I don't think the length of the vehicle has any bearing on the body colour/matching lip combination. I did it with my Fiero and I get compliments all of the time.



ALLTRBO MSG #245, 02-21-2011 12:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by doublec4:
I like the colour combo. I don't think the length of the vehicle has any bearing on the body colour/matching lip combination. I did it with my Fiero and I get compliments all of the time.

And your car is what pops into my head when I think of that paint scheme. I really like the stance and paint scheme of your car, though I wouldn't go with black GFX.


ALLTRBO MSG #246, 02-24-2011 07:29 AM
     

 
quote
Originally posted by whodeanie:
[snip]...we are working the rear hips to get them the way they need to be abd we are close on them once we get that part done we will be able to take molds...[snip]




 
quote
Originally posted by Amida:Before final sanding a design review with silver vinyl wrap was done on one side to better see how the contours & lines are shaping up...




 
quote
Originally posted by whodeanie:
It's DONE! it is in primer and will be boxed up to send to Fiero Fiberglass for the parts to be made and sold. [snip]







.
.
.
.
Add 'em all together with more personal touches and what do you get? I'll let you try to figure it out.
.
.
.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 03-08-2011).]

jdv (oldnber7@yahoo.com) MSG #247, 03-07-2011 09:34 PM
      Nice work. What alt. mount are you going to use? will you have ac?

ALLTRBO MSG #248, 03-08-2011 12:20 PM
      You'll have to ask Dave what the alt. bracket is originally from, but the plan is to modify it to fit properly. Yes, it has AC.

JesseM (jesterking33@hotmail.com) MSG #249, 03-10-2011 11:00 PM
      I... Need... Closure!

ALLTRBO MSG #250, 03-11-2011 06:50 PM
      Me too! I'm really wanting my car back.

I'm waiting on a reply from Dave WRT the most current.


bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #251, 03-15-2011 06:44 PM
      I've been working like a dog and making good progress. My website has been updated on the projects page to include the text portion of this swap...pics to be added this week. As for the car, I'll post up more details within the next day or two. Steven, I'll email you tomorrow.
Dave


mptighe MSG #252, 03-19-2011 11:33 AM
      Interested in seeing what this looks like when done (for curiosity's sake and slightly selfish reasons ). This is definitely a unique build, and I'm sure the anticipation has to be killing you.

ALLTRBO MSG #253, 03-21-2011 06:26 PM
      Thanks mptighe, the anticipation is definitely eating me alive.

What is this "done" you speak of? I just keep adding to the list of things I have to do to it! If it ever gets "done", I don't think it'll be the same car!

Good news:

The low mount alternator bracket has finally been finished to Dave's liking and it's working great from what I understand.

While the first chip I had in the ECU wouldn't let it take any throttle without dying, the second chip I included lets it rev up. The first was my stab in the dark for what should work for the setup, it's based an already modified TGP .bin for a manual tranny. Obviously no dice, so Dave installed the second which is a bone stock TGP code other than disabled EGR. The car should theoretically run and drive with this, but the fueling will be rich down low and lean up top because it has a heads/intake/cam swap (original cam, but higher ratio rockers so more lift). It'll also try to stumble and stall when pulling to a stop because it's expecting a torque converter to be in the loop.
There was/is also a lifter tick according to Dave because the new lifters haven't fully primed yet. Hopefully that disappears quietly into the night.

Soon I can go plug in my nifty electronic toys and have peek into the car's brain so I can reprogram it. Good stuff.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 03-21-2011).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #254, 04-02-2011 12:06 PM
      Here are a few pics of where we stand on 3/31/11. I sent an email to Steven filling him in on the ups and downs.

After spending close to three months fabricating a low mount alternator bracket, I had to take over the design part of the build and beat some sense into myself. The circle is not going to fit where the rectangle goes. There just wasn't enough room to mount the alternator low. The custom exhaust logs were in the way up top....and I didn't want to mount the alternator too close to them because the heat would shorten the alternator's life span. Down below, the axle was our interference. If Steven lowered the car in the future and launched the car, the axle would have taken the alternator off the car. The timing cover left us few options to mount the bracket to as well. I just wasn't going to work without causing some kind of issue....belt rubbing, alternator interference, heat, etc.
So, we took it up top the stock location. I powdercoated and modified the stock bracket to work. I used a 2001 Alero alternator, a 2000 VW 1.9 timing belt roller and a custom idler pulley to route the belt under the throttle body which is now (has been for a while) on the belt side of the engine. We had to relocate the dogbone as well.
Here are a few pics and I'm sure Steven will fill in the details after he reads my email.
Dave





The exhaust flapper switch....





ALLTRBO MSG #255, 04-02-2011 08:02 PM
      Lots of family issues going on right now, will get back soon.

JesseM (jesterking33@hotmail.com) MSG #256, 04-18-2011 03:02 PM
      I hope everything works out. I am very excited to see this car out on the roads! :]

ALLTRBO MSG #257, 04-18-2011 03:50 PM
      Thanks. There are a lot of updates to post now, gimme a little time until I have a chance to post them.

JesseM (jesterking33@hotmail.com) MSG #258, 04-19-2011 01:00 AM
      Woohoo! that is what I like to here!

dobey MSG #259, 04-19-2011 04:38 PM
      Do you have any high resoluton pics of the throttle neck modifications and welds for rotating the upper intake? I've been thinking about possibly modding the upper intake when I get around to doing my HFV6 swap, in a similar fashion. Would like to see more detail on the work done there. Might just send mine up to the Haus to have the mods done when I get around to that swap.


bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #260, 04-19-2011 07:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by dobey:

Do you have any high resoluton pics of the throttle neck modifications and welds for rotating the upper intake? I've been thinking about possibly modding the upper intake when I get around to doing my HFV6 swap, in a similar fashion. Would like to see more detail on the work done there. Might just send mine up to the Haus to have the mods done when I get around to that swap.


We don't mind doing the custom welding of parts, but from here on we will be sticking to 3800 swaps only and possibly TDI swaps once our test car is complete.
Dave


dobey MSG #261, 04-20-2011 10:42 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
We don't mind doing the custom welding of parts, but from here on we will be sticking to 3800 swaps only and possibly TDI swaps once our test car is complete.
Dave


That's fine with me. I will be doing the actual swap myself. The intake is something I want to look like it rolled off the line, though, as it will be one of the most visible pieces on the car; and my welding skills may not be up to par with that yet. So I'd like to see some more detail on the welding of the throttle neck here, to see how good it really is, because it looks pretty good in the current pics. And if I decide to go that route with the intake, and you'd still be interested in doing it, when I get to that point, I might just send the intake up with some drawings of what I'd want, and have you do the cutting/welding, and powdercoat it for me. Thanks!


mptighe MSG #262, 04-22-2011 03:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Thanks. There are a lot of updates to post now, gimme a little time until I have a chance to post them.


So, when are you going to get your car? It sounds like it's done, or is it having more stuff done to it?


ALLTRBO MSG #263, 04-22-2011 04:28 PM
      Okay,

Good news: It's coming home next Saturday! (Apr 30th)

Bad news: It'll be on a trailer.

I've really got to get back to work, details later.


mptighe MSG #264, 04-22-2011 04:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Okay,

Good news: It's coming home next Saturday! (Apr 30th)

Bad news: It'll be on a trailer.

I've really got to get back to work, details later.


Well, I guess congratulations and condolences are both in order then. Keep us posted. Your car is definitely one of a kind.


ALLTRBO MSG #265, 04-22-2011 07:05 PM
      I'll keep this short for now, there are a lot more details but I've got a lot to take care of at the moment (It's been one helluva month).

What Dave originally thought was a lifter tick is apparently a valve tap, and he thinks the cause is a worn cam. I'm going to deal with it here whether it's a relatively easy fix or the whole shortblock needs replaced, I'm going to build one anyway. I really wanted to drive it home (since two years ago) but stuff happens.
Other than that he says the engine runs a lot better now, my tune was fine (enough), the problem was a bad TPS.
The tranny won't shift into first at all anymore, even at the linkage. It shifted through all the gears fine when it was here (at the linkage), so I don't know what happened.

At least this time it will move off of the trailer and stop under its own power. Bittersweet homecoming, but the project as a whole isn't even close to being done yet so it's not the end of the world. I have a lot of great things planned and in the works for the car, most of which I haven't mentioned yet. First priority is to get it running properly.

I'll cut anyone on here a great deal on one or both of my AWD turbo Talons, I still have them and I need the room. The Fiero will get all of the attention now.
'96 TSi AWD, 11-second car on race gas and handles amazingly, tons of mods. Needs lots and lots of TLC. Great car to strip and turn into a racecar.
'98 TSi AWD, nearly bone stock and in quite nice condition, but needs an engine because it has a rod knock. Beautiful car.
I have a 30k mile 2.4l to upgrade to that I'll throw in if wanted.
Shoot me an offer for either or both, whatever it is, the worst I'll say is no.


joshua riedl MSG #266, 04-22-2011 07:42 PM
      What was the solution with the failed lifter earlier in the thread? I ask because I tried the upgraded lifter springs in my 3900 and they didn't work out. Had to return to stock.

ALLTRBO MSG #267, 05-01-2011 04:02 PM
      Joshua, the lifters were replaced with new stock replacements from Crower, or Crane, or Comp, I forget.


Now... oh boy, where to start. Stand by, this update is going to take a while to post.


ALLTRBO MSG #268, 05-01-2011 06:52 PM
      So here's the rundown. I have my car back, and I have a lot of work ahead of me to get it going.

I'm going to try to post only facts here, accompanied by pics and videos where applicable.

Dave mentioned in his final update that he had decided to mount my alternator up high, and until it was already done, I had no idea and believed he had worked out the lower mount based on what little info I had. I'm not happy with it there, it causes several issues. Those aside, the lack of communication with me hasn't sat well and I have said as much to him. He has said that usually his only questions for customers are: automatic or manual? usage of vehicle? color scheme of engine? and how much money do they want to spend?
That's fine, but I made it clear from the beginning that I wanted to have a full part in the design of this build and understood that not everything can go perfectly according to plan, but that compromises need to be discussed with me. That didn't happen this time (or some other times that I let go).

He has said that the alternator wouldn't clear the exhaust logs while clearing everything else at the same time. If he had kept to my original design for the exhaust manifolds (shown earlier in this thread) there would have been more room down there. I'm not sure whether or not it would have been enough more, but definitely more. I specified in my original requirements document, that I sent before any work had started, that the alternator location needed to be mounted in the area of the stock alternator, that is, down low. I also drew up my exhaust manifold design and included pipe sizes long before he got that far. Because everything was specified in the beginning, the setup could have been mocked up and measured for clearance before fabrication started.
I also specified that I did not want the decklid to be notched. On the turbo side we had both decided that there was no other way, but now both sides are notched and I didn't get any say in the matter.
He did take off the cost of the failed low-mount alternator bracket attempts.

Here are the issues that I need to address with the alternator having been mounted up high:
* I will need to reinforce the decklid as simply filling in the space in the notches won't provide additional strength, but it's been done. Struts would help, as when the decklid is closed they push rearward on the decklid and not upward like the factory torsion rods. It's when it is closed and thermally cycling that I'm concerned with, not when it's open.
* The alternator will need to have another heat shield made either way, but there is a strong chance that it'll fail up there, because while it may not be as close to the manifold, heat rises and collects in that location because there isn't nearly as much airflow as there is at the bottom of the engine bay, and that's one of the reasons why the low-mount was a requirement of mine. These exhaust logs and the Y-pipe will glow bright red in certain conditions (even through the ceramic), they can get up to 1600 degrees or so.
* The dogbone location worries me for this reason because it looks like from the pictures that it's much closer to that heat now. I don't know exactly what type of polyurethane Rodney uses for his dogbones, but typically it's only rated to withstand up to 250 degrees. It looks like the alternator wires will have the same problem (among a few other things). Dave did mount a heat shield above the rear bank log and that will help a bit, but I still need to make up more (I did plan on doing that anyway).
* I've 'heard' that the middle of the trunk is not a good place to put a dogbone for reasons of structural integrity, but with all poly mounts I don't know that it'll be a problem (it isn't a torque-monster V8, afterall).
* The other side of the dogbone has a bracket welded to the turbine support bracket. These two should be isolated from each other because the engine moves independently from the engine bay, but not from the turbo. It can cause the exhaust pipes to crack.

(All pics and video in this post are of the car exactly as I received it, just to clarify.)


















As mentioned previously, Dave originally thought there was a lifter tick and that it would go away with some RPM's. It didn't, so he revised the diagnosis to a valve tap, and thinks the cam wiped a lobe or several, backing up the thought with the fact that the original timing chain was very worn. I don't think it has a bad cam, but it sounded like a possibility to me. I hadn't known this when the oil was put into the engine, but all current oils lack enough zinc to lubricate the flat-tappet cams in most older engines. This applies to full synthetics as well, they apparently still don't have the proper lubrication required. Some time in the last few year the EPA limited the use of zinc in oils, but you can get racing oil that still has the right formulation. This has been a cause of many flat-tappet cam failures in the last few years.
However, I don't think the engine has run long enough for that to matter yet. I asked Dave to diagnose the tapping for me (if it didn't require tearing down the engine), and I asked if he was sure it couldn't have been the pushrod lengths. He checked the valve lash on the rear bank, and got varying results from .003" to .040". At that point I just asked him to tow it back home to me.

Obviously something is a bit off if they aren't all identical, but as I've tried to explain to Dave to no avail (he doesn't believe me), there should be NO valve lash in this engine. The hydraulic lifters take up all of the slack and should have a factory preload of about .070-085", that is, the pushrods should be pressed down into the lifter by about .075" while on the base circle of the cam, and the lifters' internal springs should press back keeping the pushrods pressed against the rockers, which in-turn press against the valves. At no point should there be any slack in the valvetrain.
If Dave didn't take this into account when measuring the pushrod lengths, then the custom length pushrods are too short (and custom length pushrods aren't cheap), that would explain the clickity-clack of what sounds like just about every valve/lifter in there.
Unfortunately you can't just adjust the rockers to take up the slack like you can in most other pushrod engines because these are pedestal-mounted rockers, meaning they're torqued down solid and non-adjustable.



Dave, Joey, and family kindly towed my car back for me at the cost of gas and tolls only, which is appreciated.
I spent the better part of the weekend going over the car and coming up with a list of things I need to address, some of which I just went over, others of which I will follow up on in the next post...


ALLTRBO MSG #269, 05-01-2011 07:23 PM
      The trans won't go into first as I said before, but all the other gears seem fine. Hopefully it will be a relatively simple fix once the cradle is out.

Here's something I'm sorely upset about. I thought it strange and worrisome when I didn't hear the distinct sound of the turbine through the exhaust, so I checked the turbo.
I cannot say what caused my turbo to go bad, but when it left here nearly two years ago it spun just fine (very freely that is). There are several reasons that would cause it to drag, but the painful fact is that my never-used $850 turbo now needs a rebuild.
Again, I'm not blaming anybody because there are a couple reasons it could have gone bad and I just don't know. I haven't checked the oil flow to the turbo yet, if it's restricted or non-existent than that would do it.



Sorry the video quality is less than ideal and you might not even be able to see the wheel when viewing on darker monitors. I had to use the mirror because of the location. What the video shows is that the compressor wheel is not moving at idle and starts to spin up a little when revved, but then stops abruptly when it settles back to idle. The thing should be spinning very steadily and easily at idle, and should never, ever, come to an abrupt stop. When spun with my fingers it should go and go and eventually come to a stop progressively. This is how it was when it left here (my wife concurs, I showed it to her and she thought it cool that it spins so precisely, even with just the protective oil).
So at this point, I have a bad engine, a bad transmission, and a bad turbo. This is a real de-motivator, but it won't stop me because I'm more motivated than ever.

More coming...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 05-01-2011).]

ALLTRBO MSG #270, 05-01-2011 08:58 PM
      Here are the rest of the pics that I took this weekend (to clarify again, the car is just as I had received it yesterday morning).
Some are random, some show issues, none in a particular order. I'm too tired to try to sort through them.
Most of the pics speak for themselves, but I'll explain a couple.








Here is the coilpack cover that Dave made. It is attached with two bolts to the firewall and nothing else. It flops up and down and the edge catches on the wiring loom and the vacuum hose:









I don't remember what this connector went to, but I imagine it isn't used anymore. The loom is actually single ended, it just doesn't look like it in the pic. The wire is not tied into the harness by about two feet, so it might supposed to go somewhere.









I think this is where the factory dogbone bracket was. You can't tell from the pic, but the edge that looks blunt is actually razor sharp, I cut myself on it. It's a good thing I wasn't putting my hand down there with my wrist exposed! The upper edge that's nearer in the pic is also pretty sharp.















The brand-new wastegate was supposed to come with its own matching fittings which are a much better design. When I saw that Dave had charged me for wastegate fittings I asked about these, and he said it didn't come with any. I said I wasn't worried about the $10, but he should ask the person he ordered the wastegate from what was up with that because I checked the Tial website and they still show them as being included (as were they with my Talon's identical WG several years back), when he didn't reply to that I forgot about it until now:











(Note the lock washer):





The muffler, which can be seen between the trunk wall and heat shield, has about 1/4" of clearance to the bottom of the trunk, and carpet is just on the other side of that thin sheetmetal. Instead of asking for the muffler to be as high and far forward as possible, I guess I should have asked for it to be as high and far forward as feasible. I didn't get a good pic of it, but the downpipe coming off of the turbo has about the same clearance to the trunk wall. That part will glow red when I push it, and there isn't even enough room to put a heat shield in between. A slightly sharper bend would have given that enough clearance to use a good heat shield.



Reverse view of the same thing (muffler clearance):



Using black wires for both hot and ground is a serious safety issue at my job, and I don't consider it any less serious here.











joshua riedl MSG #271, 05-01-2011 09:11 PM
      I know you don't like the alternator location but I did it on my 3400 and 3900. I tried mounting it low on the 3900 but I didn't think it was going to fit. However, at least on my cars, it wasn't necessary to cut both sides of the decklid rib. The outboard side can stay and at least it doesn't loose all support.

ALLTRBO MSG #272, 05-01-2011 09:24 PM
      There are other things I forgot to mention and I've still yet to look everywhere.

Now I've tried to be as factual as possible and enter as little emotion as possible here because I wanted to lay it down as it is, good or bad. It may be redundant to say that there are a lot of things I'm very unhappy with, but that's the truth and I believe I'm justified to be.
I understand that some of the untied loose ends might be because I told Dave the other day that I'll be dropping the cradle again, but most of the issues I see go far beyond that and began long before then. Dave, I'm sorry but I really thought you had higher standards. I'm not sure what went wrong here but some of these are serious problems that, frankly, I'm really surprised to see, and now I need to take care of them. I know I'm a true perfectionist, but this goes beyond what might be considered to be anal personal preference and becomes, in many cases, a safety hazard.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
...from here on we will be sticking to 3800 swaps only and possibly TDI swaps once our test car is complete.
Dave

Dave, as I mentioned to you, I saw this coming from a long ways off. I'm sorry my swap was so difficult for you. Maybe it is better to just stick with what you know. :/

To everyone: I just really don't know what else to say other than that I have a LOT of work to do yet (before I can even start on the next phase), and I WON'T let this car sit... So you can all hold me to it and pester me to keep moving forward. Thanks for all the support given so far.

And with that: It's time for a little less talk and a lot more action...

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 05-01-2011).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #273, 05-01-2011 10:48 PM
      I'm sorry to hear you are so unhappy, but you designed it and obviously didn't know the limitations you put on me to try and build it to your specs. If you let me design it from the start, the car would have ran fine, shifted into first (remember I wanted to split the case to change the speedo gear to make the wiring easier, but you insisted we use the impulse sender) and the car would have been done last year.
I advised you to change over to Rodney's solid dogbone as well.
As for the battery cables....they are difectly from Summit Racing and are clearly marked on the ends of the cables. As for color??? I'm sorry, but Mercedes Benz battery cables are black on both sides, but different size battery posts (as your's are) and labeled just like yours are, so maybe I'm not the only idiot that looks at the battery and cables before trying to determine which one is the negative. (hint....the one with the + stamped on it is the positive)
You also saw the cables and never said anything about them. I could have easily swapped them out for you. A lot of the things you complained about, you saw in person and didn't say a word to me about it.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TAY-21542/

I'm not exactly sure of what you do at NASA, but I have been repairing cars for 18 years. I've been asked by the top tech companies to quit my career and instruct diagnostic seminars to head techs all across the country. I also know to not try and fit a circle in a place where a square should fit. You were instructing me to put the turbo in a spot that you thought was 10 inches square larger than it was. Everything you designed was not to scale. Your exhaust design was originally two exhaust systems in one and not cutting the trunk. We redesigned it and got your approval, but had to shorten the trunk anyway....so you can see that when you drew this out, you didn't know how much space you were working with.

And yes, your design sucked. It did, but I promised you that I would do my best to complete it. What you had wanted done was questioned by the four of us that had our hands in it because there were much better ways to do it and after I advised you how we could do it, you said no.
You lost your cool when I had enough and mounted the alternator high. The original design fit well low, but if you lowered the car (which you said you would), there was a chance the alternator would hit the axle. If you let me use the original Fiero 2.8 timing cover (modified), I could have done it easy. The Alero timing cover didn't give me any mounting points to work with. The block left me nothing that wouldn't bend over time. Also, I spent three months of my spare time trying to do it your way and failing and one week doing it my way. I also didn't bill you for the three months I wasted.
I'm not going to let you cut down my work that was built the way you had asked. Since you were one of the first swaps at my shop, I gave you a hell of a deal on the labor and let you run the show. Giving you the floor was obviously a mistake on my part because you led me to believe you had the design worked out. Your design changed about five times during my build and I had no idea whether I was coming or going with you.
This is why on the other swaps, I ask the questions I ask and build the car. I haven't had a complaint on my designs yet. I've built turbo and s/c BMW's, Audi's and VW's too, in addition to over a dozen Fieros.
Secondly, if there was such an issue, send me an email and I could have sent you back some money or worked it out with you, but after this I'm not sure.
I'm not sure of why you posted pics of the tail pipes. You had asked me to not install tips, but leave them so your tips can be added later.
Basically, your turbo design wasn't realistic and no matter how many times I tried to convince you there was a better, easier way to build it....it had to be your way because you were the man paying me to build your setup.

If I remember correctly, the first thing I asked you was why you were going through all this mess when you could just build a turbo 3800.
That open connector was for the Air intake temp sensor. I'm not sure where the sensor went, but it wasn't secured because you told me that you were going to put the cold air intake on it at a later date and I figured you would drill a hole in the intake pipe at that time, so we just zip tied it temporarily. As for your harness. You gave me three harnesses to work with and only one of them was the correct application.
The other connector that was left open was for your cruise control. I didn't want to hack it in case you decided to change the setup and add cruise in later.
If you want to play tit for tat, I could post up the hundreds of emails back and forth, with all your changes in the designs after we already built the first parts. You had us change the injectors and wastegate spring so many times that I can't even remember what spring is currently in there. You had us plan out the intercooler and then provided us with a heat exchanger that was suppoed to fit in a straight through design, but yours was a 90 degree design and wouldn't fit, so you scrapped the idea of an intercooler because I wanted to purchase the correct heat exchanger for $125 and that wasn't good enough for you.
As for the deckild notching, I told you that I am not a body guy and I was not able to fiberglass the notches to make them look pretty and be more stable. If I had the skill for that, I would have. My VR6 Fiero is notched much more than yours and had not shown a crack in the paint or any issues in the past few years and many many miles.
Also, with your throttle body. You told me you were going to upgrade it at a later date, so rather than flip the spring so it would pull from the opposite end, I had to work with the one you gave me so that the next one would work. I am still wondering why you didn't just give me the final TB in the first place. I also would have cleaned it up a bit too.

On project CR3810N, Michael has asked me to build him a turbo setup and I will be able to do it my way....and when the car is done, I guarantee that he will be very pleased...because it is designed by a guy that has been under the hood for 18 years and not jacking off to car magazines from his cubicle.
Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 05-02-2011).]

1988holleyformula MSG #274, 05-02-2011 08:01 PM
      hmmm, well now that both of you have had your say in the build thread, could the rest of your discussion be taken to PM's? I would hate to see such an incredible thread go the route of FierociousGT's build (especially when I PM'd Cliff to move this to The Construction Zone in the first place!)

Figure out how to be square with each other, and then let's see this thread continue.

edit: Its your thread, and I think both of you are pretty level-headed individuals, so as long as its civil discourse it should be alright.

And even with all your disappointments, just looking at all the work that DID go into this still floors me. I know its easy to see the things that you don't like, but I would have to say that there was a lot more done right on this car than its shortcomings. (ie. want to trade? )

[This message has been edited by 1988holleyformula (edited 05-02-2011).]

ALLTRBO MSG #275, 05-02-2011 09:25 PM
      Unfortunately it's not that easy for me. I won't let my design be cut down that wasn't built the way I had asked.
I like to think this thread is incredible because it shows the chronological evolution of the build, including everything that has happened and has yet to happen in pretty great detail. I want to share the whole process with everybody during the sweet times and the sour times, as a true picture cannot be painted without both. However, the two things that ruin threads as fast as one can type are immature name calling and personal insults, things I have always tried to avoid doing... and I would appreciate it if, in the future, no one else did it in my thread either.
1988holleyformula, I really appreciate the nomination to TCZ and appreciate Cliff moving it here, and I would like it to stay here. I'd like to think it can if we all act like adults.

I have a lot of a reply written up but I have much more important things to do than finish it right now, like sleep, then work. I have a valid retort for everything posted because I'm interested in sharing the objective truth, but it'll be fine waiting until later. For now you can know that what you see in the pictures and videos above don't lie (hint: they show a lot more than poor design).

G'night all.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 05-02-2011).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #276, 05-03-2011 07:34 AM
      I'll continue this in an email to Steven....just like he should have done with me prior to posting this. The ONLY part of my work that I am not pleased with is that coil cover. That was a last minute add on that should have just been left off and a U-shaped hose added to the BOV to prevent water from getting in it.
Other than that, I see Steven's RFT side showing. Not one thing was said about the good parts of the build. He just wants to critique. (I still would like to know what is the complaint with the exhaust design. The exhaust was cut at the tailpipes as per his specs to add his exhaust tips on later.)
I also wish he would have understood what it is to do my part of the build. When I built my VR6 swap, the first design I drew out on paper looked great, but when I got the Fiero in front of me, certain parts didn't work out right and I had to redesign most of the build. In the end, it came out great.

This is quoted from 60degreev6.com talking about the turbo.

 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
If that's a journal bearing turbo and you don't feel any interference with it when turning the shaft it's probably fine. I've seen that behavior before on one of my own turbos where it looked like something was preventing it from turning but it turned out to be a normal response. Depending on your turbine housing size and exhaust temps it may not rotate at idle. I've had both scenarios on the same engine, lean out the exhaust at idle enough and it'll spin fast enough to hear it whistle and other times it might ratchet around until the engine was reved.


 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:
Okay, I understand now that it may not spin at idle, I didn't know that (FAIL). Yes it's a journal bearing turbo. However, if you can see the vid, you can see how it slows down and stops really fast. I've never had (or seen) a turbo do that before and it spun freely when I bought it (and sent it off). It does feel like it's dragging a little bit when spinning with my fingers. Contaminated oil is a possibility, but I don't know for sure.


I don't think the turbo is the correct size for the application, but Steven insisted that since he got such a great deal on that turbo, that was the one we were going to use. It does spool up, and you hear the nice whistle, but that starts happening over 3500rpms.


Steven, I wish you luck on this build. I hope it turns out the way you want when it is complete.

Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 05-03-2011).]

ALLTRBO MSG #277, 05-03-2011 10:38 PM
      I won't be hurt if no one wants to read through this, but I want it to be here now. Updates on my car should continue this weekend.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
I'm sorry to hear you are so unhappy, but you designed it and obviously didn't know the limitations you put on me to try and build it to your specs.

This wasn't my design.

This wasn't my design.

This wasn't my design.

This wasn't my design.

This wasn't my design.

I could go on...
No, none of that was my design, that was your workmanship and your design.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
If you let me design it from the start, the car would have ran fine, shifted into first (remember I wanted to split the case to change the speedo gear to make the wiring easier, but you insisted we use the impulse sender) and the car would have been done last year.I advised you to change over to Rodney's solid dogbone as well.

How would it have ran fine with pushrods that are too short? Your measurements would have been taken the same way. So it would have shifted into first because you would have stumbled upon the problem by chance because you wanted to use an older design non-adjustable and less accurate speedometer sensor that this FWD tranny and ECU calibration never actually used? After I thought about it for a very short time, I knew that was a big "no thanks".
It might have been done last year if you had finished it as you said you would back in Novemeber IIRC. It got old thinking for the longest time that it was *that* close but I kept giving you slack because I didn't mind the extra time if it meant that is was going to be done right.
You advised me to use a solid dogbone after you changed the design without saying anything because your new design put it very close to the hot turbo exhaust manifold... any design of hot turbo exhaust manifold. I didn't want a solid dogbone and I still don't.


 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
As for the battery cables....they are difectly from Summit Racing and are clearly marked on the ends of the cables. As for color??? I'm sorry, but Mercedes Benz battery cables are black on both sides, but different size battery posts (as your's are) and labeled just like yours are, so maybe I'm not the only idiot that looks at the battery and cables before trying to determine which one is the negative. (hint....the one with the + stamped on it is the positive)
You also saw the cables and never said anything about them. I could have easily swapped them out for you. A lot of the things you complained about, you saw in person and didn't say a word to me about it.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TAY-21542/

Okay, I wasn't aware that it came that way. The battery relocation kit I bought for my twin turbo Camaro from Summit Racing had a red cable for positive, like every car I've ever seen (I don't look at Mercedes' battery cables because I don't care about Mercedes') I personally wouldn't have purchased it because of that, and yes, I know what the little "+" means, thanks. Accidents happen and they're a lot easier when something isn't clearly marked. Call it a flaw, but I've been known to make some obvious mistakes. I can admit to them, though.
I may have seen some of these things in person, but I don't lock onto things until I look at them for a little while. There's another flaw I have... In fact, I didn't even notice that both cables were black until I looked at that picture I took. At the time I didn't feel that I needed to inspect the whole car right then and there anyway. I guess I should have, though.
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
I'm not exactly sure of what you do at NASA, but I have been repairing cars for 18 years. I've been asked by the top tech companies to quit my career and instruct diagnostic seminars to head techs all across the country.

I've mentioned it several times, I'm an Electronics Technician. I have 10 years of experience in the electro-mechanical field and only a couple big-name Aerospace companies have offered me jobs, to which 5 years of Naval Avionics experience has helped. I build, test, integrate, troubleshoot, repair, and yes, even give my design inputs to many different aspects of the aerospace industry. I've even built a few turbo cars myself.
I guess my resume isn't as impressive as yours, but that's a moot point. Those pictures and videos of the work speak for themselves. I had thought someone with your credentials wouldn't have sent out any car with some of the workmanship issues that mine has. That's why I said I'm surprised.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
I also know to not try and fit a circle in a place where a square should fit. You were instructing me to put the turbo in a spot that you thought was 10 inches square larger than it was. Everything you designed was not to scale. Your exhaust design was originally two exhaust systems in one and not cutting the trunk. We redesigned it and got your approval, but had to shorten the trunk anyway....so you can see that when you drew this out, you didn't know how much space you were working with.

Yep, I learned the circle-square thing when I was three, too. I physically took some measurements when the rough engine/tranny setup was in place, and specifically said that some custom work may have to be done to get it there. If you'll notice, it is in that location.
The exhaust design IS two exhaust systems in one... that's the whole point. I said that I *thought* my design would fit in there with the full trunk but that I'm willing to cut the trunk if need be. I believe that that is spelled out in this very thread, much of this is. The one mistake I made, and admitted to openly, was that I forgot about the sway bar going there, as it wasn't installed at the time I took measurements.

Here is my original exhaust design...




It doesn't look like you redesigned it to me, that is the current exhaust, other than that you ignored my original request for a bullet muffer and small cat and ordered a larger Magnaflow which I didn't originally want, and mounted it SO high that it nearly butts up against the trunk. With the bottom of the trunk gone, there is EASILY enough room to give it another 2-3" which I consider to be reasonable, considering that I could actually fit some heat shielding in there that way. Oh yeah, and you wanted to mount a 90* cat straight off of the turbine, before the dual-mode exhaust valve. You couldn't get much further from my design, and I obviously didn't approve that.

 
quote
(from me)...
Dave,
Here are the drawings. I'm going to try to ignore my OCD and avoid apologizing for the crudeness, but it should give you an idea of what I want. Obviously all of the angles are not perfect.
I'm really not sure about the tailpipes splitting off from the 3.5" (or 3") downpipe, that's one thing I can't visualize properly right now. That needs to be Y'd from 3.5" (or 3") to dual 2.5" pipes, one to each side. A HUGE pet peeve of mine (there's the OCD) is when 80% of someone's exhaust comes out of one pipe and 20% comes out the other. These ones need to be as equal flowing as possible.

As far as sound, I think anything that's not extremely restrictive (ie: stock mufflers) will sound just peachy. The turbo speaks for itself (pun intended). My ideal sound goes something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watc...ture=player_embedded

That turbo whistle through the exhaust is pure automotive ecstasy.
Mine should sound like that with the bypass cutout open, but I'd love to hear some of it through the quiet mode, too. Of course it'll be variable anywhere in between.
As the drawing shows, I'd like a bullet muffler (not a normal glasspacked muffler), one like this:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PYE-MVR200S/
In fact, that's perfect. It's SS at a low price, if it'll fit.
As for the cat, any performance 2.5" SS cat will do, whatever fits. It just needs to be as low as possible. I think the car will still sound great with all this in there, it's a very short exhaust.

Angle the WG dump into the downpipe at around 45*, this time it should be easier to do. I think a well made SS flex pipe would work well here, because that's what is on my Talon and it's held up for several years without leaks. I don't know where to find that, yet.


A lot of that was ignored entirely, other bits you said you were unable to do. Oh, and your wastegate dump design sucks. That was another thing you fully failed to mention to me before you did it. I mentioned in this thread that I was concerned that it would cause boost creep, and if it did then I would take care of it when it happened. I would still be concerned about that, but it doesn't matter anymore.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
And yes, your design sucked. It did, but I promised you that I would do my best to complete it. What you had wanted done was questioned by the four of us that had our hands in it because there were much better ways to do it and after I advised you how we could do it, you said no.

Again, my design didn't suck, but much of your implementation did and I see how far that goes now that I have the car in front of me. If I had believed the best you could do was near-zero exhaust clearances despite more room, misaligned, skewed and RTV'd flanges, improper hardware installed improperly, messy wiring with a broken connector shoved into its socket and loose hoses/lines/cables with bad routing, flimsy sheilding, a dogbone mount welded onto an exhaust bracket, etc., then I wouldn't have had you work on my car. I guess my expectations were too high because I believed you when you touted your work as being among the best and some pictures looked like it may have been. Whatever my expectations, much of your work on my car is sub-par at best. I don't understand how that is not obvious to you if the rest of your swaps are great, as you and customers have said they are.
Here is the original PM I sent you. I tried to spell it out pretty clearly from the beginning what I wanted and that there was going to be a lot of custom, un-figured out work that might be somewhat difficult.
Please excuse the light-heartedness of this PM, I try to be cheerful most of the time, and that is often sadly confused with immaturity. I am a straight forward, honest and dead-serious person when it counts (though much less than perfect).

 
quote
(Originally PM'd by me)
Hey Dave,
I've got a mighty super-big impossible question to ask you, Mr. Haus Guru. Would you be able to complete this? If you say no way in hell, I'll completely understand...

I'm in the middle (beginning) of a custom junkyard Turbo Grand Prix 3.1 swap (1990 Gen II 60* V6 alum. head turbo engine) in my '88 GT plus a lot more, and I honestly don't know when I'll be able to complete it. I am starting a new job which will pay much better, but also require more time put in, and that's very (VERY) hard with the chronic health problems I have. It leaves little time for anything else, but I desperately need this garage ornament OUT. The car had no drivetrain when I bought it and the engine bay was stripped of all parts then coated with brush-on bedliner. It also needs all of the powdercoated suspension put fully together, and the 12" Corvette brake upgrade completed.

The engine and FWD Getrag are bolted together and in the car (dirty) with a Clutchnet clutch and a resurfaced '88 flywheel installed. Everything there bolts in almost as stock. I have no guarantee that the engine/tranny are 100%, but they seem to be okay from external inspections/movements, and came from wrecked cars. There is a lot of custom work needed, though it's still in the same engine family as the stock V6 so it's nothing too exotic. I have a used Gen III (2002 3100) top end to swap onto it, essentially making this a 3100 swap with a turbo. It all bolts together other than needing custom length pushrods, and I only wanted to replace the valve guide seals before bolting it all together (with new gaskets/seals). The 'entire' exhaust for the new turbo setup (headers back) will need to be fabricated, but I've planned almost exactly how and where everything will go. I have the new turbo (huge), and custom oil lines will need to be ran to and from the TGP feed/return locations. I can later take care of the custom intercooler setup it will need as long as the compressor is routed to the TB initially.
The accessories will be a bit of a pain, as I plan on a low mount alternator setup in the stock Fiero location. This will require some custom pulleys/brackets and re-routing of the serpentine belt that aren't 100% figured out, but it's the best way to do it. I'll need to acquire a Gen III AC compressor, and that will need to be mated with the Fiero's lines.
The fuel lines will need to be somewhat custom, that shouldn't be hard with the right fittings. I planned on installing a Walbro 255 FP which isn't done yet, I may be able to get that in first, not sure.
Of course various cooling hoses will be needed. There will also be some small workarounds needed for the 3100 top end's heater/water pump lines.
The throttle cable will need to be worked out, and while I ultimately want the newer style electronic cruise control, I can probably hold on that.
I have both a stock Fiero wiring harness and a TGP wiring harness to work with, along with several TGP pin-out diagrams and the factory 88 service manual. I'll be using the '730 ECU which is the same internally as the TGP's ECU, that one is just the weatherproof under-hood version of the '730. I'll have the hardware and a custom base tune ready for it which should get it up and going, I'll tune it fully afterward.
The tranny is from a FWD but I have the Rodney Dickman parts required to make it work with the Fiero. I think I'll need an SGI-5 converter for the speedometer signal as well.
There is also a cradle bolt that spun before I got it, and a hole was cut in the frame rail to access it. I might be able to tackle this myself first, though. There is no battery tray in it, and I was thinking of doing a front mount conversion if I don't want to put the battery in the stock location.
As I mentioned, the suspension is only loosely together and will need to be properly assembled and 'performance' aligned, and I have the '88 Corvette brake conversion parts including the rotors which will need to be drilled to the 5x100 pattern, and assembly required. You'll like this, the 17" Volkswagen "Monte Carlo" wheels will have new tires and will clear the brakes easily.
That's "all" I can think of to get it on the road. Most all of the parts are there or will be there beforehand, except the completely custom stuff.
Oh, I'd also need it towed from College Park, MD behind someone's shiny new Ford semi-truck. You could probably put a Fiero in the bed of that thing.
I'd hopefully be able to drive it back.

So, would you be willing to tackle something of this caliber? If so, could you provide a very rough ballpark estimate on total cost and turnaround? While I'm not rich, I understand something like this wouldn't be anywhere near cheap or quick. If it's too rich for my blood then I'll laugh in your face and tell you to get a life. Just kidding! It may well be too rich for my blood if you'll even do it, but it doesn't hurt to ask, I think! If you might consider this but have questions, ask away!

Thanks for reading that mess if you didn't skip to the end, and tell Joey I said hi.
Take care!
-Steven


Your response was (including but not limited to... I don't need to post the parts that aren't relevent):
 
quote

Steven,
The swap you are planning doesn't sound that difficult.

And after much more dialogue to set things up, I sent you the more comprehensive requirements document, and though it was sent after you towed the car up, it was both sent by me and claimed to be understood by you before any work started. I thought I made it clear that I wanted a lot of communication, what is in red below gives several examples. Obviously there was a disconnect between us as to what communication means because you didn't communicate very well throughout, aside from the now obvious, many many times you did not answer my questions in email or only partially answered them. Yes, there were a couple few months in there where I told you that I was unable to make or recieve calls at work because we were in a critical phase, but that was a relatively short time period, and emails were always open.
If it was a problem for you to work with me to this degree, you should have said something. I understand that your four questions to your normal customers leave them no say in anything (and that's fine if they want it that way) but this was plainly obvious from the start, or I would have just said: "manual, high-performance street and occasional drag strip and hard track days, black and silver, as little as possible". Of course I want more than that, or I just would have gone for that black on black 6-speed C5 Corvette instead. I keep telling myself that even though I should have (and still), I'm going to build what I really want instead, even if it still an inferior car. It's about much more than simple performance, and it's been that way from the beginning.
Of course some of this changed such as the plans for you to finish the exhaust (which I humbly asked you about part-way through and would have been fine with you not doing it), but again, I clearly spelled out that some things were bound to change. You seem to have grossly misunderstood that based on your reply.
Again, some of this was written light-heartedly. I try.

 
quote
(Written by me)
MIDTRBO (in no certain order)


OVERVIEW
There’s a lot to do, though it probably took longer to type this than to do it. Sorry for the novel ahead!
I’m sure things are forgotten here, and I know that not every issue that’ll come up is addressed. We’ll talk and figure it out. Call me most anytime at the numbers above with the hours listed.
All boxes are labeled with what’s in them for the most part (See? I’m OCD too). Some is self explanatory anyway.
I’d like the unused parts back unless otherwise specified (or unless otherwise useless junk).
The car is fully registered and (liability) insured, with proper documentation in the center console. When the time comes, drive it. J


ENGINE
Overview = Gen II 60*V6 3.1L from 1990 Turbo Grand Prix (TGP)
Top end = Heads, lower intake, & accessories from 2001 Olds Alero 3400 w/134k miles, throttle body and upper intake from 2002 Chevy Malibu 3100 (identical intake other than “3100 SFI” badge, smaller TB. I’ll upgrade to the direct bolt-on 3400 TB later)

Bottom end – R&R all gaskets and seals w/ sets included (if more needed, those too) If crank seals caused grooves in crank etc, use Speedy Sleeves or whatever it takes to keep the oil in. I’ll leave that determination up to you. You might find the pistons to be wet, that’s okay because my friend put some ATF in the cyl’s before he hand-turned it over (it had been sitting a while). Hopefully nothing else will be there other than some carbon buildup. Relocate turbo oil return to other side of oil pan, block off previous return (turbo location requires this for proper drain). Visually scan internal components (no extra disassembly necessary). Install head studs.

Heads – Clean well, R&R valve seals (I need to locate new ones and have them shipped to you). If you have capability, check deck surface for flatness. Remove remaining manifold studs, one of which broke off inside head (DOH!). Heads are direct bolt-on to the 3.1 except the pushrods, the setup needs to be measured for proper length (one size intake, another size exhaust), send me lengths, I’ll order custom, send to you.

Lower intake – Clean well, install with revised GM torque procedure/specs. R&R broken water neck w/ included replacement, install 170* thermostat (I need to locate and have sent to you unless you can get one easily).

Fuel injectors/rail – In the TGP engine currently are green-top 42lb/hr injectors, return to me with car to install in setup later. Install included injectors (black, 22lb/hr stock TGP units) into new top end. Be wary of uninstalling stock 3100 injectors, there are little round plastic shrouds that install on the bottom side of the manifold on the injectors. I think these should be removed permanently with the other injectors. Determine best way to adapt fuel lines from Fiero to 3400 rail, execute.

Upper intake/TB – Clean well, install EGR block-off plate. Determine best way to connect Fiero throttle cable to 3100 TB, execute.

Water connections – Determine best way to properly route/connect all external water passages/lines, execute.

Spark – Mount coils as comes on 3100/3400 (on rear side of upper intake) w/included bracket (not the one the coil pack is currently mounted to, but with top end accessories). Install new plugs and wires (I’ll order and send to you).

Accessories/Acc. drive – Fabricate or modify a bracket to locate alternator near stock Fiero 2.8 location, determine routing and length of needed belt with that and PS delete, execute. This hasn’t been fully figured out, but is the best way. In the stock Gen II/III location, decklid clearancing is required, weakening the decklid at the point where the spring pushes against it, bowing it upward (unacceptable). Also, a custom dogbone mount would be required; this way the dogbone bracket mounts as stock.
Install AC compressor, determine proper connection of Fiero lines to compressor, execute. Do an R-134 conversion (I don’t know how to do this), fill system with R-134.
Install Gen III starter (at the proper time, of course).
Install 2-bar MAP sensor. (Alternator, AC compressor, starter, and 2-bar MAP sensor will be ordered by me and sent to you).

Perform leak down once together.


TRANSMISSION/FINAL DRIVE
Overview = FWD Getrag 5-speed from unknown car. (late 80’s I think) Unknown mileage. FWD half-shaft needs to be removed as my friend said he was sure he had the parts to make that work, then didn’t come through.

External – Clean up and possibly paint silver/aluminum

Internal – Shouldn’t need to be messed with, I want the VSS to be wired up for use with the ‘730 (VSS to ECU, ECU to speedometer), slightly more research required on my part (unless you know what to do already). Install new GM Synchromesh trans fluid.

Clutch/Flywheel – (Clutchnet clutch) Reinstall as is, should be all set, along with the resurfaced ’88 flywheel and new TOB.

Cables/Brackets/Hydraulics – Complete before turbo setup to alleviate potential clearance issues. Install included Rodney Dickman (RD) FWD conversion kit and the like. I don’t have a Getrag clutch fork lever for it, but everything else should be there. Install brand new RD select cable, hook up factory shift cable, check out factory slave cylinder, the rod may have popped out of place and may need to be put back together. Look for any obvious signs of damage. Once buttoned up and bled, check for leaks on both ends. IIRC there’s something holding the clutch pedal off the floor in the car, remove before flight.

Axles – Waiting to acquire (I have a lead on both). R&R axle seals in trans, install new/partially new rear wheel bearings/seals (Fiero Store sent me a new one and a slightly used one it looks like, found out too late to do anything about, so use and hope it’s good). The ones in the car are junk, can be trashed.


TURBO SETUP
Overview = SWEET! Center of the build, what more can I say? J In reality, if it’s too cumbersome or costly in the long run for me to have you build it, I’ve included stock Gen III manifolds and crossover as a back-up (or in case you want to start the engine pre-turbo install). I don’t yet foresee that happening, though.
All parts are not-yet-acquired except the turbo. I know what (in relation to) and where to get the turbo flanges, wastegate and flanges, and some fittings. I don’t yet know where to start with any of the hot-side tubing.

Turbocharger – Borg/Warner S258 with Garrett T3 .82a/r housing machined to fit (by Tim’s Turbos of Virginia). This turbo is massive for the current application, but will work very well for it. It’ll be a tight fit, but will fit where I want it. I showed Shawn for a visual, but to re-iterate, it will be located between the left strut tower and the intake manifold, just rear of where the 3100 TB will sit, with the exhaust outlet pointing at an angle somewhat toward the rear center of the car.
Fabricate bracket to support its weight (I was thinking the bracket can be easiest attached to the transmission below.), execute.
Determine fittings and line/hose needed to provide oil feed and return (The TGP has a feed, should just need to adapt it, and as mentioned previously the return is to go to rear of oil pan now, kept as vertical as possible)
-CRITICAL- Make sure the turbo is “pre-lubed” when installed by cranking the engine over several times without fuel or spark to drive oil through it.

Headers – Fabricate log-style headers, but with primaries “radius’d” in toward direction of flow. (I haven’t been able to locate pre-made stainless 3100/3400 style flanges, so if you can’t (or it’s too much work to) fabricate SS flanges, I’ll concede and go with the mild steel ones that WOT-Tech sells, and they (the headers) will need to be ceramic coated. I haven’t determined the primary size, main log size, or wall thickness, so we should talk about it more extensively. Essentially, I don’t need a 110% efficient race setup, but I don’t want them to be restrictive… or to fail… either. The Y-pipe connection flanges are TBD, we should talk more about this also.

Y-pipe – Fabricate in stainless, (again, header connections TBD). If space requires (and it might), then a pre-made radius’d “T” fitting that is round can be used on a crossover-style pipe in place of an actual “Y”. Header to Y-pipe flange style will determine whether or not a flex-section needs to be used.

Wastegate – Install provision on Y-pipe for wastegate mounting (exact location TBD), route wastegate exhaust out of engine bay temporarily. Connect wastegate to manifold vacuum source with silicone hose (I can order if you can’t get it easily).

After-turbo exhaust – I’m going to build this, but to get it home, install a cheap muffler or cat to quiet it down, and route the temporary exhaust out of the engine bay, pointing to the ground if need be. Simple, temporary, relatively quiet, and reliable for the trip, that’s all I need. The only other necessity is an O2 bung, for the sensor, welded to the pipe just behind the turbo.

Intake – Fit a 4” K&N cone directly to the turbo if it will fit that way, or if it doesn’t then route a pipe to place the filter away from whatever it hits. Connect the turbo discharge to the throttle body with whatever setup is easiest and cheapest. This is temporary, I’ll fabricate the entire intercooler setup.


COOLING
Overview – Here’s yet another somewhat-unknown. Install proper coolant tubes (an extra pre-88 tube is there, I didn’t know which one it was, but I don’t need it back) with included brackets. I’m not sure everything is there.
Inspect radiator. Install front coolant hoses (drop ship?) and custom rear’s to fit the engine, along with a rear filler setup (common swap stuff I think).
The lower air-dam is missing, I should have one sent to you by the time it’s needed.
ELECTRONICS/POWER
Overview = I’ve never seen the car with a battery or engine bay harness so everything is suspect. Please test out everything when complete.

ECU/Harness – Install and fabricate harness for ‘730 ECU with included harnesses and connectors, wired like a ’92 Chevy Beretta. Included are one stock ’88 (supposedly) wiring harness in rough shape, and one ’90 TGP harness. Between the two you should be able to make what you need. The TGP harness should include the proper connectors for the 3100/3400 sensors, except the coolant temp. sensor. There is no provision for the sensor in the 3400 head like there is in the TGP head, but usually it’s relocated and spliced in somehow (IIRC?) to make two sensors into one. I forget, we can talk.
I’ll get you the TGP pinout and the Fiero-to-Beretta pinout swap. This is the best I can do at this time, but should be enough for most of it.
I included the TGP ECU (or equivalent) just in case, but it should not be needed.

Tune – The $8F (TGP) code is supposed to run just fine when wired up as specified. Included are three chips, all with EGR disabled. The first is installed in the ‘730 (with adapter) and should be tried first. This is what I guessed should match this setup as a baseline. If the engine doesn’t run or run reasonably well providing the hardware is correct, install number 2, which is (poorly) labeled. This is a bone stock TGP code, automatic tranny calibration and all. It should run the engine, though it’ll want to stall when coming back down from revving among other issues. If it doesn’t want to run, swap in the 1-bar MAP sensor (included in the 3100/3400 accessory bag) and install chip number 3, which is a nearly stock ’92 Beretta 3.1 5-speed calibration (set for TGP injectors). If there were issues with $8F running with this wiring layout, this should let it run. Of course boost = bad with this calibration (even though it’s now very rich at 100kPA for safety), but the car doesn’t have to boost, even to get it home.
If none of the above works and it’s a sure bet that it’s the software, then we can troubleshoot and play the mail-order-tune game in reverse (unless you have tuning capabilities at your shop). Hopefully it won’t come down to this, but it’s hard to say with a swap like this.
Battery – There are no provisions for battery mounting at this time. We should talk about front-mount options, or re-installing a battery tray. I’m not sure if all the cables/attachments are there, if not let me know what I need to get. I don’t have a battery, though I’d like a good sealed AGM.

O2 sensor – Install and wire a 4-wire heated O2 sensor just behind the turbo. If you don’t have a proper one to sell me, I’ll have one drop shipped.

Fuel pump – Install included Walbro 255 high-pressure pump, everything is there for it. Inspect tank to make sure it isn’t nasty. I think the lines to the overflow are missing, replace those. Inspect everything in the area.


SUSPENSION/STEERING
Overview = Most components are new, or at least equivalent. Assume everything about anything suspension related is not torqued or even put together properly.

Rear – Strut assemblies should be 100%, leave as a unit, but check torque on top nut. Stock springs are installed over Koni Struts.
All hardware back there should be correct (now), except the nuts for the forward (rear) cradle bolts. “Random Hardware” boxes ‘should’ have the proper ones. Rear cradle bolt spun and previous owner cut hole in frame rail to access. Needs a bracket welded up, and the frame rail closed. It would be preferable to do the other side as well unless it’s determined that it shouldn’t need it anytime soon.
Tie rods are new and -very- unadjusted, so probably need to be before all mounting points can be installed.
Forward trailing arm bolts are installed on the right, in a box for the left.
Rear sway bar should be installed with new RD “zero lash” end links, included.

Front – Go through it 100%, including steering. Previous owner very loosely put it together, I’m not sure if all or any of the hardware is right, as I hadn’t gone through it yet. I do know there are some large flat washers missing for the bushings, but there are a few in “random hardware boxes”. If need more, we’ll figure out which.
R&R installed front springs with included stock (uncut) front springs, install Koni shocks (included), make sure adjustment is on “soft” setting for both.
R&R installed poly end links with new RD “zero lash” end links, install sway bar.
Re-use front wheel bearings

Wheels/Tires – Self explanatory and all set. PLEASE keep these nice. It was a lot of work to finally get all 4 wheels, in nice shape. J

Alignment – Perform performance 4-wheel alignment with specs I’ll give you (don’t have as of yet).

BRAKES
Overview = STOP! At least that’s what we want the car to do, very quickly. All of this is in pieces at the moment.

Rotors – Drill 5x100 pattern in 4 new 12” Powerslot Corvette rotors, I included one stock rotor if needed for a pattern. Install on hubs with included centering rings. Install backing plates if they’ll fit without severe modification (unsure).

Calipers – Clean and rebuild stock calipers with included rebuild kits. Install Porterfield R4-S pads. Install with included spacer brackets once proper extra bolts are attained (I might be able to figure this out and have them drop-shipped)

Hydraulics – Stock master cyl. should be good, no guarantees.
Install new braided lines, front and rear (slightly different lengths between the two)
Fill/bleed with new Motul DOT 5.1 brake fluid (that’s not DOT 5, the silicone based fluid, but rather a high-temp synthetic DOT 3 style fluid, but you probably knew this). I included two bottles, hopefully it’ll be enough. If not, I’ll have more drop-shipped to you.

Parking brake – Install. New cables are partially installed, but I have no idea how to finish them or if everything else is there. If not let me know.

BODY
Overview = Don’t put any new holes into it. J Everything else is gravy. Don’t worry about scratches. It won’t even be RED when I’m done. Oh, and keep Joey from taking my nifty new wingstands.

“Internal” – Install wheel-wells. Rears are included; fronts should be on their way before you have to install them.
The spare-tire well is just sitting there. Please install properly when the time comes. Remove for easier access to steering.
Wow, that’s a lot. I’d like the car sometime before 2016 if you guys can do it, though. J


 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
You lost your cool when I had enough and mounted the alternator high. The original design fit well low, but if you lowered the car (which you said you would), there was a chance the alternator would hit the axle. If you let me use the original Fiero 2.8 timing cover (modified), I could have done it easy. The Alero timing cover didn't give me any mounting points to work with. The block left me nothing that wouldn't bend over time. Also, I spent three months of my spare time trying to do it your way and failing and one week doing it my way. I also didn't bill you for the three months I wasted.

I never lost my cool, and I won't either.
So if the alternator fit well low except for my stated 1.5" MAX lowering in the rear I would do, then to fit well when lowered you would need another 1.5" above MAX to be safe. If you had mocked up the requested setup from the beginning, you would have found out whether or not my manifold design which is slimmer and further away in that area would have fit, or at least been darn close in the estimation. I do this sort of mechanical clearance checking and mocking up at work quite often. It's not rocket science.
You said you wanted to use the Fiero timing cover and accessories. I told you that they wouldn't work with the aluminum heads and that even if they did I wanted the newer style accessory drive. When you said again that it would be better, I told you to try it. You figured out that it didn't work, and using the newer timing cover was set. It's a TGP timing cover as I've explained, the Alero timing cover is different.
I didn't hear you say anything at about spending three months on the alternator, all I heard several times was that it was done and working fine, or almost done. Once you said you redid it because you weren't happy with it, but it was then fine. If you follow our posts in this thread, you can see how something seems a bit off. I was led to believe everything was peachy, and I posted what I heard from you.
One week to do it your way? Is that why the execution was so bad? It seems to me that you were fed up and in a hurry at that point.
I still don't understand why, after all I've said and shown from the very beginning, that you think it was the right thing to do to ignore my input all together by doing it your own way, and at the same time causing more issues that I already told you were unacceptable to me. Here's the thing. If it was impossible for you to do, communicate that with me plainly. "It's impossible for me to do it the way you want it done". If I still don't want it done another way, then communicate plainly "Then I can't do anything with it and it will have to remain undone, but I'll do that too, it's your call". I expected communication to that effect. Simple, to the point, and quick, while also being professional. What's the problem? It would have saved you nearly three months of wasted effort that I had no idea about.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
I'm not going to let you cut down my work that was built the way you had asked. Since you were one of the first swaps at my shop, I gave you a hell of a deal on the labor and let you run the show. Giving you the floor was obviously a mistake on my part because you led me to believe you had the design worked out. Your design changed about five times during my build and I had no idea whether I was coming or going with you.

See my first responses in this post. I didn't ask for sub-par work or any design that wasn't my own.
I thought it was a hell of a deal too, all until it culminated into something I didn't want done, a rattle-trap engine with incorrectly measured parts, and seeing the workmanship up close.
I thought I'd get a very clean, reliable (within in the limits of my provided parts), and durable build having payed $11,470 in labor, materials, parts and supplies not counting everything I provided prior and during. Some of it seems to have been good work (and yes, I will get to that, and my mindset has VERY LITTLE to do with RFT.) but the core of this build is what I'm focusing on right now because, well, the proof is in the pudding.
See above about leading you to believe the design had been 100% worked out, it's in red.
My design ONLY changed when you told me you were unable or unwilling to do things fully the way I had asked. You can see from my document above that, by and large, my design is still almost exactly the same as I had originally requested it, except for the parts I clearly stated weren't worked out yet (and I thought talking it over with you was working it out, not me "changing my design"), or the design that you changed without telling me.
I have no idea why you were unsure "whether you were coming or going" with me, but you never said anything that led me to believe you had ANY problem in that regard. I can't stress enough, communucation. We humans need that to work together.
I don't understand where you're getting any of this, seriously.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
This is why on the other swaps, I ask the questions I ask and build the car. I haven't had a complaint on my designs yet. I've built turbo and s/c BMW's, Audi's and VW's too, in addition to over a dozen Fieros.
Secondly, if there was such an issue, send me an email and I could have sent you back some money or worked it out with you, but after this I'm not sure.

I'm glad your designs haven't had a complaint, for both you and the customers. That's good for everyone.
Does that make everything I'm showing and saying less accurate? Not one bit. I've designed many things that work and have built things that no one has complained about, too.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
I'm not sure of why you posted pics of the tail pipes. You had asked me to not install tips, but leave them so your tips can be added later.

 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:
Here are the rest of the pics that I took this weekend...
Some are random, some show issues, none in a particular order. I'm too tired to try to sort through them.


 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
Basically, your turbo design wasn't realistic and no matter how many times I tried to convince you there was a better, easier way to build it....it had to be your way because you were the man paying me to build your setup.

My turbo design is still realistic and would work just fine if it had a better execution.
Damn straight it had to be my way because I was paying you to build my setup. It's my car and my money. What's to argue?
Again, I'm sorry there was a misunderstanding on what I was paying you to do. I'm not the kind to answer 4 questions then shut up and dish out my hard earned money. I'm becoming a broken record here, but it's fine if someone agrees to do that with you, but I clearly never did. I never would have considered you to work on it if I knew we were at such odds in that regard.
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
If I remember correctly, the first thing I asked you was why you were going through all this mess when you could just build a turbo 3800.

You aren't remembering correctly because you didn't ask me that, but if you did, my answer would have been the same as it is now. "Because I don't want a turbo 3800."

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
That open connector was for the Air intake temp sensor. I'm not sure where the sensor went, but it wasn't secured because you told me that you were going to put the cold air intake on it at a later date and I figured you would drill a hole in the intake pipe at that time, so we just zip tied it temporarily. As for your harness. You gave me three harnesses to work with and only one of them was the correct application.
The other connector that was left open was for your cruise control. I didn't want to hack it in case you decided to change the setup and add cruise in later.

Just above you claim to know how to build turbo setups and you claim you're getting very good at tuning 3800's, yet you don't know that the right way to do it is to locate the IAT sensor after the turbo and intercooler, and as close as you can get to the *intake valves* without letting it get heat soaked? That's very, very basic.
No wonder I couldn't place that connector. Oh, and it was hanging down to hear the axle and not tied in. That's okay, I need to reroute it anyway.
As outlined above, I gave you two harnesses and ~1/2 of each was the right application. I told you this and you were perfectly fine with it. There is no "right application" when you're swapping an engine into a car it never came in, I don't even get what you're trying to say.
We went over the cruise. Originally I said leave it out and I'll do it, then I inquired with you about doing it afterward (OOP! design change, you got me) and you looked into it and told me you couldn't because it wouldn't work, so I said okay, no problem, I'll do it. I appreciate you not hacking it. Tying it into the harness or out of the way of danger at least is the right way to leave the hook in, I do it all the time when building my ground support equipment harnesses.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
If you want to play tit for tat, I could post up the hundreds of emails back and forth, with all your changes in the designs after we already built the first parts. You had us change the injectors and wastegate spring so many times that I can't even remember what spring is currently in there. You had us plan out the intercooler and then provided us with a heat exchanger that was suppoed to fit in a straight through design, but yours was a 90 degree design and wouldn't fit, so you scrapped the idea of an intercooler because I wanted to purchase the correct heat exchanger for $125 and that wasn't good enough for you.

I have every PM and email too, from the first to the very last. In fact, I've referenced many of them to make sure my story is staying as straight as possible. Nobody will ever read through hundreds of our emails, and nobody wants to see all of them on the forum. That's a moot point, but even if it wasn't, I'm not worried about what I said anywhere or at any time.
You are obviously very skewed in your memory as I've said before. I asked that the injectors be changed ONCE. I had you change the wastegate spring ONCE. If you changed either of them any more than ONCE, it's on you. Speaking of the springs, where is my 15 psi spring that I asked you to return to me? It isn't in with the parts that came back with the car.
From the very beginning and ALL THE WAY THROUGH I've said that I will do the intercooler setup and I just wanted you to run the charge pipe through the stock cat location. You were going to buy a $125 China air-air intercooler and I told you not to because I wasn't going to pay for it, because I wasn't going to use it. Damn straight it wasn't good enough for me. At that point I suggested that if you really want to use a temp. intercooler, I have the TGP intercooler and it might fit though it's an angled design, but I'd bring it up to you so you could try it out. It didn't fit, and I didn't care because I didn't think it bothered you and I wasn't going to use it for very long anyway. All of this is correct, none of what you said is.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
As for the deckild notching, I told you that I am not a body guy and I was not able to fiberglass the notches to make them look pretty and be more stable. If I had the skill for that, I would have. My VR6 Fiero is notched much more than yours and had not shown a crack in the paint or any issues in the past few years and many many miles.
Also, with your throttle body. You told me you were going to upgrade it at a later date, so rather than flip the spring so it would pull from the opposite end, I had to work with the one you gave me so that the next one would work. I am still wondering why you didn't just give me the final TB in the first place. I also would have cleaned it up a bit too.

As for the decklid notching, I didn't want you to do it in the first place. As I've been iterating over and over, I don't care much about the look of it, I care about the support. I'm glad yours hasn't cracked because that expensive paint job is sexy. I've heard of them cracking before and I don't want my expensive sexy paint job to crack either (or to have a bowed up decklid). You can call this one anal personal preference as it won't affect the performance of the car.
Yep, I told you I'd upgrade the TB at a later date, and I've explained to no end on this thread why I'm doing that along with other parts. I also told you to do what you had to to make the TB work because I would do the same thing to the TB I upgraded to. This is the first that I heard you "had to work with the one I gave you so the next one would work". Cleaning it up isn't that hard so I'm not worried about it, but it is ugly next to that beautiful intake manifold.
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
On project CR3810N, Michael has asked me to build him a turbo setup and I will be able to do it my way....and when the car is done, I guarantee that he will be very pleased...because it is designed by a guy that has been under the hood for 18 years and not jacking off to car magazines from his cubicle.
Dave

I hope that Michael is very pleased with his car, he's spending his money and he also seems like a great guy.
And here's where you went down the really low road. Do you really think that a pathetic insult like that adds to your credibility? I've stayed away from several vendors in the past and will stay away (in other communities as well) when they don't hold a high professional standard on a public forum, even if they're being attacked personally (which I am not doing). I do feel like an idiot for failing to realize all along that you felt that I'm such an incompetent moron, though. It seems to me that while the whole time I thought I was working with you, you thought I was working against you. Ouch.

Again, there was obviously a gross misunderstanding between us about the meaning of communication and also what I was paying you to do. For that I can apologize only as much as I am responsible, and I do.

To everyone, if you look at it from my point of view, having paid over $11k (and yes I'm embarrased to say that), you might see that I have a reason to be seriously upset at many of the things you see in these pictures, and you might understand why I have been taken aback by this work, and after what has transpired over the last few weeks and days why I feel that my options with Dave have been exhausted.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 05-03-2011).]

avengador1 (avengador1@aol.com) MSG #278, 05-03-2011 11:00 PM
      Just be glad you got your car back and it is in on piece. There are other "builders" out there that would have let your car rot in a field while the weeds grew through it. I hate to see threads like this, where one person nitpicks the other to death, just to try and damage their reputation because of lack of communication. Take it to PMs or email and if you can't get any satisfaction then you can post about your problems here.
He obviously cannot make any corrections to your car anymore, since you have it back, so it will be up to you to make any changes you think you need now. Whining about it here will not solve anything but it will start a pissing war. It doesn't sound like anyone had a specific plan of action or specific plans were made for this project.
In before the trash, because that it where this thread is certainly headed.


ALLTRBO MSG #279, 05-03-2011 11:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
I'll continue this in an email to Steven....just like he should have done with me prior to posting this.

Okay, emails are fine now after I respond to this. As I just posted, I was and have been overwhelmed by this, and from what I see and have heard, I feel that you were done with me. It's more than just a couple of minor mistakes that could be worked out easily.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
The ONLY part of my work that I am not pleased with is that coil cover.



 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
Other than that, I see Steven's RFT side showing. Not one thing was said about the good parts of the build. He just wants to critique.

"RFT side"? For starters, this has nothing to with that website or some of the prevalent attitudes on that website.
I hadn't gotten to the good parts yet, because frankly, those are what I had expected. I'd still praise them then.
This was all about what blew me away, and there was a lot of it.
I hadn't gotten to it yet, but I was planning on saying this:
Your welder is a damn good welder from what my untrained eye can see.
The suspension and brakes both felt tight and straight while puttering around in the parking lot across the street.
The car moves under its own power.
The intake looks pretty.
From the maybe 5 minutes I've run the engine I haven't seen any leaks.
I'm trying for more, but everything else I can think of is directly affected by one of the "critiques".

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
(I still would like to know what is the complaint with the exhaust design. The exhaust was cut at the tailpipes as per his specs to add his exhaust tips on later.)


 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:
Here are the rest of the pics that I took this weekend...
Some are random, some show issues, none in a particular order. I'm too tired to try to sort through them.


 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
I also wish he would have understood what it is to do my part of the build. When I built my VR6 swap, the first design I drew out on paper looked great, but when I got the Fiero in front of me, certain parts didn't work out right and I had to redesign most of the build. In the end, it came out great.

I do, I'm a technician and I deal with engineers and designers on a day-to-day basis. It's the same way.
The rest I covered all too well by now.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
This is quoted from 60degreev6.com talking about the turbo.
[quote]what I said[QUOTE]
I don't think the turbo is the correct size for the application, but Steven insisted that since he got such a great deal on that turbo, that was the one we were going to use. It does spool up, and you hear the nice whistle, but that starts happening over 3500rpms.

And if I had gotten a chance yet, I would have posted this as soon as Tim from Tim's Turbos (who built the turbo) got back to me so I could post what I talked with him about since those posts. You act like I'm hiding something. I already said that I have nothing to hide, and that I'm not perfect and make mistakes, and that I want to post everything relevant to my build, and the turbo most definitely is.
You are allowed to think my turbo is too big and that I bought it only because it was such a great deal, but that's your opinion.

I showed Tim my video and he says yes, sometimes larger turbos for the displacement don't spin at idle. However, he said that it stops spinning more abruptly than normal, but it may be a few things causing it, not all of which would cause it to need a rebuild. I'm going to get to that in my updates later because I'm exhausted.

 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
Steven, I wish you luck on this build. I hope it turns out the way you want when it is complete.

Dave

Thank you.

Avengador, I hate it too. What can I say, I started it I guess. Thanks for the input. (I'm being serious about the thanks).

(Edited to add: "about the thanks" just then ^)

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 05-06-2011).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #280, 05-04-2011 07:34 AM
      This was your idea...without cutting of the trunk.



We went back and forth for a good amount of time discussing this setup. I explained to you over and over that a muffer doesn't go in the exhaust system before the catalytic converter. This will not allow the cat to fire off and function. Also, I suggested a 90 degree cat off the turbo because it would function fine and is used on factory applications. You explained that the purpose of the cat was not for emissions, but to quiet the exhaust system down and you wanted your dump to be a free flowing dump to the tail pipes.
So I came back with this and asked you to choose one.



Then we agreed to cut your trunk.

Then we made this.



Also, the dogbone relocation. The mounting is welded on the inside as well which has been proven to hold over an estimated 400whp on Ryan's 3800s/c (will be getting dyno numbers very soon). WCF has their dogbone setup that way as well.

I've fixed other swaps that I found to not meet my standards. Not once have I gone this far to belittle the original swapper. I try and maintain a professional standard or maybe I don't feel the need to air my dirty laundry. You should have come to the shop prior to our delivery and I could have fixed the issues or discounted the price to be fair.
For the record, since you aired it out first. You paid me $4900.00 in labor to assemble your suspension, brakes, tear your engine down to the short block, Time Sert the block because the head studs pulled the threads out, assemble everything that came in the many many boxes you sent. Keep in mind the car didn't run, didn't have brakes at all, didn't have a functioning clutch pedal, and was lowered. The suspension was not complete. Everything else you paid was sublet charged to the machine shop, Ryan (he wasn't an employee at the time), or parts.
So, I made $2450 a year building your car (which I split with the guys that were working on your car). I believe I can make that on a 80k service on an Audi which will take me one day. You can see my frustration. I build the Fieros as a hobby. I don't make a living building them.
You are not going to hurt me or my business by bashing me. I limit the customer's options on my Fiero swaps because the options I give are tested and tuned setups that are working for us. If I don't enjoy doing the build....I don't do the build. If I feel the customer is the kind that can never be happy no matter what, I turn it away. Your car came in before I set that standard.

Dave

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 05-04-2011).]

mptighe MSG #281, 05-04-2011 01:23 PM
      Sorry guys I wish this had turned out better for both of you. Hopefully the build will survive the issues encountered. I also hope both of you will be able to move on and not carry this with you for too long. Speaking from experience, this kind of negativity can mess with yor perspective.

ALLTRBO MSG #282, 05-06-2011 12:17 PM
      That was an appropriate way to accidentally start a new page. Thanks for the kind words.
The build will most definitely continue, there is a lot more to come.


ALLTRBO MSG #283, 05-06-2011 10:22 PM
      My billet 3" stroke crank and Carrillo Pro-H 5.85" rods for the 3200





I'm going to do more research and try to decide whether or not I want to buy this from Will and use it, it'll take a whole lot of work to get running with EFI (it was designed for mechanical injection) and it's pretty extreme even for this high-rpm build. I measured it last night, each throttle bore is 50mm and the as-cast runner length is about 4.5".




.
.
.
However, I'm going to stick with the plan and get the 3.1 running decently first. All it should need are custom length pushrods..... again.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 05-06-2011).]

mtownfiero (andrewj592@aol.com) MSG #284, 05-07-2011 07:28 PM
      I'm not sure if you have changed the cam or not yet, but wouldn't it be easier and more beneficial to switch to the 3x00 roller cam so you could use stock length 3x00 pushrods lifters etc.

pontiackid86 (phllyracer@aol.com) MSG #285, 05-08-2011 01:08 AM
      Just a little idea about the dog bone mount on your swap.. This was done on my 3400 and works really well. only issue with it is accessibility. Its mounted on the front of the engine to the cradle and it works exceptionally well and outweighs the cons of accessibility. I'll get you pics of my setup if you like.

ALLTRBO MSG #286, 05-08-2011 07:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mtownfiero:
I'm not sure if you have changed the cam or not yet, but wouldn't it be easier and more beneficial to switch to the 3x00 roller cam so you could use stock length 3x00 pushrods lifters etc.

Unfortunately the factory roller cam setups are not compatible with the older non-roller cam blocks. I'm never going to touch another flat-tappet cam again, though. I've only ever had trouble with them.

PK, sure, pics won't hurt. Not saying I'm hot on the idea, but I never mind seeing a pic or two.


pontiackid86 (phllyracer@aol.com) MSG #287, 05-09-2011 08:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Unfortunately the factory roller cam setups are not compatible with the older non-roller cam blocks. I'm never going to touch another flat-tappet cam again, though. I've only ever had trouble with them.

PK, sure, pics won't hurt. Not saying I'm hot on the idea, but I never mind seeing a pic or two.


sure thing. I'll grab some tomorrow for ya. its already up on jacks so it shouldent take long to get them.



Daredevil05 MSG #288, 05-23-2011 05:29 PM
      Bump

Any progress?

The Riv


ALLTRBO MSG #289, 05-25-2011 08:07 PM
      Only that I cleaned out a lot of needed space in my garage.

I'll be posting updates as I fix the problems, one at a time.


ALLTRBO MSG #290, 06-17-2011 02:19 PM
      A few weeks ago my Camaro and my wife's Civic got broken into at 3am. Both of the Camaro's side windows were shattered and the driver's side on her car, and our stuff was rummaged through. We don't even keep anything worth of value in the cars because we aren't stupid.

Long story short, I've been full-time busy designing and installing a bada$$ surveillance/security system for my house and property. It's enough to warrant its own build thread (but that's not gonna happen). So, the Fiero is on hold for even longer. There's no point in doing anything to it if it's just going to screwed with (or worse) by some lowlife pathetic scum. I did get my back-ordered pushrod length checker in, though.


Daredevil05 MSG #291, 06-17-2011 03:40 PM
      That stinks.

Daredevil05 MSG #292, 08-02-2011 11:54 AM
      Bump

Hardpact (hardpact1973@aol.com) MSG #293, 10-10-2011 08:40 AM
      One question for ya Steve .... Why the h**l would you build a 3100 turbo when every one knows those motors have a crap load of problems in the valve train and bottom end ..... Just a question ??

Hope the camaro is good that car was sweet ... Will be getting one soon !!


ALLTRBO MSG #294, 10-10-2011 11:32 AM
      They don't... where do you get that info? Does this question have anything to do with the conversation at the show? The only common problem with the Gen III's is the lower intake manifold gasket leaks, but that is 100% corrected by replacing the gasket with a metal Felpro gasket and torquing it to the revised GM specs. IIRC, a lot of 3800's have that exact same gasket problem.
I have a coworker with over 300,000 miles on his Lumina with the original 3100 and it has never been opened up (the transmission is a different story, but I digress...)

Oh yeah, they do have valvetrain problems when two-faced jerks think they know everything then install pushrods that are too short because they don't need to be told how it's done. Ya got me there.

The Camaro is doing great, thanks. I still love driving it every day! You should love yours too, please PM me when you get it! I hope your Fiero is doing great too, that car is sweet.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-10-2011).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #295, 10-10-2011 11:48 AM
      .

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 10-13-2011).]

ALLTRBO MSG #296, 10-10-2011 02:36 PM
      I tried before, on the last page, to get over it and continue on (even ignoring Dave's last post on that page that was also full of either inaccurate accounts or outright lies), and I will eventually get over it for good, but I really am still pissed. I should be DRIVING this car right now as I should have been able to do away from that shop.
It isn't about money, it isn't just about a project car, it's about honestly, integrity, and seeing a man's true character when conflict arises.
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:
First off, your car wasn't mentioned at the show. Second, I built the motor to your specs and argued with you every step of the way before I finally gave in and did it your way all while questioning why we were building something with a blown engine. And, for you to say I was wrong for measuring valve lash, I was trying to make a point that your engine HAD excessive and uneven valve lash to prove the cam lobes were worn unevenly. There should not have been any lash. Your timing chain was falling out, I had to Time-Sert the block because there were no threads, we rebuilt your heads and you freaked out, but you wanted them cc tested???? Your build didn't make any sense to any of the three of us that worked on it.
And finally, you call me a two faced jerk again....we will finish this conversation in person.
Dave


First off... You imply that I jack off to car magazines in my cubicle but I can't say you're a two-faced jerk? At least one of those is true... from everything I've experienced anyway (hint: I don't even have a cubicle.) Go ahead and make all the threats you want (it's a free internet), I ain't skeered.
Secondly, how the hell do you know that my car wasn't mentioned, were you involved in every single conversation there? Believe it or not, there are people who were there that are quite interested in my build, you involved or not.

Blown engine? Why does it start up just fine then, without any noises other than the valvetrain that you failed on, and without any major loss of compression or any other signs of a 'blown engine'?
You were trying to make a point about the valve lash? After you had put it together incorrectly and then diagnosed it with a lifter tick that should go away eventually? (I've never had lifters take longer than a couple seconds to prime, even when brand new, but I trusted you knew what you were doing so I gave you the benefit of a doubt). Any competent engine builder knows that you would check all of that before it's buttoned up. As for the uneven lash (which you should have caught while you were measuring for pushrods), what you had measured once the "lifter tick" wouldn't go away was well within the adjustment of the lifters when they're put together properly. Obviously there shouldn't be much of a difference, but it wouldn't even have showed up as an issue. Your actual 'point' in checking the valve lash was "to be sure it was not incorrect pushrods" (that's a direct quote).
Nice try in attempting to distract from the fact (you are good at that I must admit)... you put my valvetrain together wrong after telling me to order pushrods that were actually too short, then you personally told me that this engine is SUPPOSED to have some valve lash. Since you previously ran all around the internet (at least 60degreev6.com anyway) looking for what I've posted, you probably also saw this question that I posted there, which was answered by Ben (site owner, and someone who knows a helluva lot more about building these engines than you do)...
http://60degreev6.com/forum...ion-about-valve-lash
Valve "lash" on this engine is supposed to be about -.071" (that's a negative sign because that's how far INTO the lifter the pushrods are supposed to sit, in other words, no lash at all)
Timing chains wear out, sometimes so much that they break. I know of at least three engines that were worn enough that the timing chains either broke or were "about to fall off". The timing chains were replaced, and those engines went on for at least several thousand more miles (I lost track of them because two of them weren't mine and I sold the third). You replaced it, and low and behold, that isn't the problem with this engine.

Time-serts... It's time to revisit that...

Way back I posted in this thread that I had some ideas why, but whatever the cause of the threads pulling out was neither here nor there... well it's here. Just for the fun of 'enjoying' those sexy car magazines, I went and looked this up, though I learned about it way back in Auto Service Technology class at the local tech school:
 
quote
Part of the fun of building an engine is ensuring that all the threaded holes in the block are in good shape and ready to handle the torque loads for fasteners like head and main cap bolts. While you might not give much thought to the quality of these threads, it's a royal pain when the threads pull out when you're torquing that last head bolt.

Standard taps are actually designed to cut new threads rather than chase existing ones. Every time you use a standard tap to chase a set of head bolt threads, for example, the tap will also remove more of the existing threads. This reduces the overlap of the female threads in the block to the male threads on the bolt. This reduced overlap can often lead to stripped threads on these larger bolts.
In the old days, savvy engine-builders only ran a tap through these bolt holes once, and employed a very old or used tap that did not cut as deeply into the female threads. While that's still a trick that you can use today, ARP has come up with a set of new taps that will accomplish the same goal. These taps are specifically designed to be used as thread-chasers to clean dirt and junk from the threads, yet remove as little parent thread material as possible. If you enjoy building engines, keep this little trick in mind the next time you get ready to clean those threads. It might save you grief down the road.

Read more: ]http://www.carcraft.com/tec...xzz1aOmuFYko

Whether or not that played a part to begin with, timeserts were installed... problem eliminated, still no "blown engine".

Freaked out? Seriously? According to you at the time, the heads needed rebuilt, so I said okay, have your friendly shop across the street rebuild them. WTF?
It's these types of things you say that make it ever clearer just how you thought of me behind my back nearly from the start. To think, I told everyone for 2 years what a good job you do and how nice you were, and that my car was in good hands. When I got my car back, I had to choke on crow at work in front of the coworkers who thought I was an idiot for sending my car off to someone's side business to their repair shop when all I did was defend you. I had to admit, my faith in your abilities was obviously quite blind. I still feel like a freakin' idiot, and it isn't because of what I wanted built. I should have seen right through you when you started telling me things behind other people's backs and then I saw you changing your story when you talked to them face to face. That just disgusts me. When I say you're a two-faced jerk, it isn't only because of your attitude about me.

I already explained all this, but details always fall on deaf ears. I wanted the chambers CC'd so I could calculate the actual compression with the new, and freshly shaven down heads. You know, the SCR is kind of important when you're building a turbo engine, especially when it's a testbed for similar but fully built engine that hasn't had a final SCR decided upon as of yet..

Even though I could still go on and on about even more of this big FAIL that I haven't even mentioned, I think it's futile to counter anymore of your past, present, and future BS... afterall, you are quite happy with all the work that you did aside from that POS coil cover. Apparently nothing I say will help you get off your high horse.

So, I found out recently, as I should have known all along, that this wastegate on my Fiero is a fake Tial. (I researched all that back in 2003 or so when I purchased my Talon's real Tial wastegate, but I honestly forgot all about it).
Dave, I would like to be reimbursed in full for this wastegate since is not what I asked for, so I can buy a real Tial. If you want, I'll even send this fake one back to you if you pay for the shipping.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-11-2011).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #297, 10-10-2011 03:29 PM
      .

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 10-13-2011).]

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #298, 10-10-2011 03:40 PM
      .

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 10-13-2011).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #299, 10-11-2011 02:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

The last paragraph sums it up.


LOL... the delivered product sums it up.

 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:










 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:







I don't remember what this connector went to, but I imagine it isn't used anymore. The loom is actually single ended, it just doesn't look like it in the pic. The wire is not tied into the harness by about two feet, so it might supposed to go somewhere.





I think this is where the factory dogbone bracket was. You can't tell from the pic, but the edge that looks blunt is actually razor sharp, I cut myself on it. It's a good thing I wasn't putting my hand down there with my wrist exposed! The upper edge that's nearer in the pic is also pretty sharp.




The brand-new wastegate was supposed to come with its own matching fittings which are a much better design. When I saw that Dave had charged me for wastegate fittings I asked about these, and he said it didn't come with any. I said I wasn't worried about the $10, but he should ask the person he ordered the wastegate from what was up with that because I checked the Tial website and they still show them as being included (as were they with my Talon's identical WG several years back), when he didn't reply to that I forgot about it until now:





(Note the lock washer):






Using black wires for both hot and ground is a serious safety issue at my job, and I don't consider it any less serious here.









None of that has anything to do with the engine internals. You could have had a foam engine model in place and it wouldn't have affected the above issues.
If that's your idea of quality work, good luck keeping your BMW customer base.
Don't waste my time with a reply.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 10-11-2011).]

ALLTRBO MSG #300, 10-11-2011 08:23 PM
      Wow...
Yep, Will pretty much summed it up.


Hardpact (hardpact1973@aol.com) MSG #301, 10-11-2011 10:50 PM
      pm sent



bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #302, 10-12-2011 08:16 AM
      .

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 10-13-2011).]

Hardpact (hardpact1973@aol.com) MSG #303, 10-12-2011 11:19 AM
      not steeling the tread just pm'd him on his camaro ....no trouble for me also explained why i thought the 3100 is a crappy motor to put a turbo on



ALLTRBO MSG #304, 10-12-2011 12:36 PM
      No worries Hardpact, I don't think anyone thought you were doing anything wrong.

(Edited to delete the rest of this post; Dave apologized for his recent personal attacks and deleted his radical posts so I deleted my equally radical response here [particularly the profane version, hence the next couple posts... I finally did lose my cool]).

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-16-2011).]

War Hammer (oldsouthphoto@yahoo.com) MSG #305, 10-12-2011 01:14 PM
      Please refrain from the language. It is offensive.

bmwguru (bmwguru@optonline.net) MSG #306, 10-12-2011 01:19 PM
      edited while I rethink the situation....

[This message has been edited by bmwguru (edited 10-12-2011).]

ALLTRBO MSG #307, 10-12-2011 01:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by War Hammer:
Please refrain from the language. It is offensive.

I apologize, that was hypocritical of me. I will go back and tone down the language.


War Hammer (oldsouthphoto@yahoo.com) MSG #308, 10-12-2011 06:30 PM
      Thank you.

 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

I apologize, that was hypocritical of me. I will go back and tone down the language.




ALLTRBO MSG #309, 10-16-2011 09:36 PM
      Here's the wastegate. There is a large gap between the valve and the body; There is supposed to be a replaceable valve seat insert there to fill in that gap, and it was not put in prior to installation. In person, it is even more obvious than in the pics. I have no idea how anyone could possibly miss that when installing it. In addition to that there was a huge external exhaust leak from that connection as evidenced by the blackened gasket and flange (both sides), and bottom side of the turbine blanket. The bolts were slightly more than finger tight. Ironically, the connection to the dump pipe was fine.
Gee, I wonder why my turbo wasn't spinning.






.
.
.
Here's the area with the turbine blanket removed...




.
.
.
This is the condition the wastegate was in (before I removed it)...






The soot in the exhaust's dump pipe shouldn't even be there considering that this car has never seen boost...




Here it is with the actuator top removed. This is the worst of the two holes with stripped threads that holds it together with the spring compressed inside. The wastegate spring that was swapped in was the wrong one for whatever reason, it was a 3.6 psi spring rather than the 8.7 psi that I ordered. The original one was supposed to be a 14.7 psi spring, but I didn't get it back like I had asked so I don't know if it was or not...








And finally, here is a real Tial 38mm, made in the USA and one of the best you can buy (and it includes properly designed banjo fittings). This same wastegate has been on my AWD Talon for about 50k hard miles through hell and back and has not had a single issue (I took it apart once to inspect the diaphragm while troubleshooting a boost problem I was having, but it was like new)...



Dave told me he will refund me the money for that fake wastegate, and I will order one through a reputable Tial dealer.

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 10-18-2011).]

doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #310, 10-18-2011 11:00 PM
      Where can you buy the replacable valve seat insert for the tial wastegate? I just bought a wastegate with no seat... kinda pissed. But the only reason I spotted it was because I read your thread the other day! I ended up knocking the guy down a few more bucks. I looked on the Tial website, and I see it listed under spare parts... but I don't know how I can order it?

ALLTRBO MSG #311, 10-19-2011 06:30 AM
      I just ordered the wastegate from www.extremepsi.com . They seem to have a good rep from the DSM folks (I've been out of the DSM loop for several years now) and are verified by many to sell real Tial products. I also ordered a few other parts for my Talon.
I put in the order at about 4:30pm yesterday and by 5pm it was at UPS... with a delivery time of today! Providing that I get what I asked for, I'd recommend them.

Here's the valve seat.
http://www.extremepsi.com/s...9940&cat=1142&page=1

Good luck!


ALLTRBO MSG #312, 10-19-2011 05:56 PM
      My wastegate was delivered at 3pm today, that's less than 24 hours! It's the real deal for sure, and so is extremepsi.com... highly recommended at this point.

Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #313, 10-24-2011 02:45 AM
      TiAL makes some great products! Here's some of what I have sitting on the shelf.

GT35R with a TiAL .82 A/R Stainless dual V-band housing, 50 MM "Q" BOV, and the MV-S 38 MM wastegate.
Top notch quality on these pieces. Got mine through StreetRays, lowest price I could find.

Oh and about that wastegate. You'd be amazed how many people install their TiAL, and knock off wastegates with the valve seat missing. If you search for Wastegate open at idle, you'll hear a lot of stories about that. Your new wastegate probably came with a piece of red tape holding the seat in.

[This message has been edited by Fierobsessed (edited 10-24-2011).]

FieroWannaBe (patond@alumni.msoe.edu) MSG #314, 12-06-2011 01:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

My billet 3" stroke crank and Carrillo Pro-H 5.85" rods for the 3200




Could you give some more information on this crank, It doesnt look like a factory crank to me, nor does the word billet describe one. I though you had mention you would use a DIS 2.8l crank?



ALLTRBO MSG #315, 12-07-2011 11:53 AM
      I was going to use a 2.8 crank until I became aware of this one. It'll require an external crank trigger but those are available.

Here's my copy+paste from my thread on 60degreev6.com

My friend Will bought a pallet of old 60*V6 racing parts from Ryan Falconer Racing Engines, they were huge on them in the 80's (and 90's?). They moved on from them, and when they moved their location, they had a bunch of leftover (mostly used) parts. Heads, intakes, the crank, rods, and a few others. I believe this crank was built specifically for or by them, and was used in an engine at some point, but it's like new. It has a 3" stroke (not 2.992", aka 76mm, like the 2.8 crank). This billet crank really is as good as it looks in the pics, even up close. The journals are perfect. It was the only one on the pallet. I have no idea if any others are out there somewhere.

There's more to update here about the car, but I really don't have the time currently. Let's just say that the wastegate can of worms has been opened... more total crap work that was done.


nosrac MSG #316, 12-11-2011 05:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

TiAL makes some great products! Here's some of what I have sitting on the shelf.

GT35R with a TiAL .82 A/R Stainless dual V-band housing, 50 MM "Q" BOV, and the MV-S 38 MM wastegate.
Top notch quality on these pieces. Got mine through StreetRays, lowest price I could find.

Oh and about that wastegate. You'd be amazed how many people install their TiAL, and knock off wastegates with the valve seat missing. If you search for Wastegate open at idle, you'll hear a lot of stories about that. Your new wastegate probably came with a piece of red tape holding the seat in.



What are you going to put these in? I ordered some pretty Turbo parts too.


Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #317, 12-11-2011 05:37 PM
      3.4 DOHC 6 speed.

ALLTRBO MSG #318, 12-11-2011 06:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:
Oh and about that wastegate. You'd be amazed how many people install their TiAL, and knock off wastegates with the valve seat missing. If you search for Wastegate open at idle, you'll hear a lot of stories about that. Your new wastegate probably came with a piece of red tape holding the seat in.

It just goes to show you how many amateurs there are out there.
You've definitely got some nice parts there! If you have a build thread, will you link to it here? I don't have time to browse much anymore.

I pulled the Fiero onto the street last weekend to get it out of the way for the outgoing other car, then when I went to pull it back up it wouldn't start. Probably something to do with the cold weather and a lack of an IAT sensor, in combination with a very rough base tune. I got it started today and pulled it back in. Pretty soon it'll be in the garage and I'll be tearing it down again, finally.

As for the wastegate, I don't have pics yet, but I'll post the blurb I had posted in the 60degreeV6 thread about what I found upon removing it...
 
quote
(ALLTRBO)
Now, here's the WG's can of worms that was opened when I went to replace it (I fully expect more cans of worms)...

Man, long story short...
The valve seat insert was not installed, causing a large amount of exhaust to bypass the turbo entirely. Remember the problem with the turbo not spinning at idle? Yeah. He blamed it on my turbo being too big.

In addition, the bolts holding the WG to the junk Y-pipe were barely more than finger tight, causing a massive exhaust leak.

The WG's mounting flange was (poorly) hogged out along with the mating flange that is welded onto the junk Y-pipe, and they were tapped for one of two sizes. I say one of two, because one of the bolts was an M10 with a 1.25mm thread pitch and the other was an M10 with a 1.5mm thread pitch. I think that the flange was tapped for the 1.5mm pitch because the 1.25mm bolt and the hole it came out of were stripped worse than the other. Yes, they were BOTH stripped to a degree. Who knows, he may have tapped it for a standard size bolt instead of metric to begin with.

Here's how it is SUPPOSED to work. The WG (both the fake one and the real one in this case) uses M8 bolts, so the holes in the WG are unthreaded M8 holes (imagine that). The flange that is welded onto the Y-pipe should be a threaded M8 hole in this application since the flange was welded flush to the Y-pipe (meaning that you can't put a nut on the other side). M8 bolts are then installed from the WG side while sandwiching the gasket in between the flanges and then tightened to the appropriate torque.

In other words, it's COMMON SENSE. This isn't rocket science! (I should know, I work with rockets and rocket scientists, hah!)
Tell me good people, HOW DO YOU SCREW THAT UP?

So, I can't install my WG yet, as I have to repair or replace that pathetic mess. Pics later.



Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #319, 12-12-2011 06:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

It just goes to show you how many amateurs there are out there.
You've definitely got some nice parts there! If you have a build thread, will you link to it here? I don't have time to browse much anymore.



Can do, but the build is far off. I've got the magic go fast goods, but no place to work on it. When I get back into a house with a garage things will move forward. For now, im just collecting parts to make this happen. It's an impressive shopping cart so far....


ALLTRBO MSG #320, 12-16-2011 07:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:
Can do, but the build is far off. I've got the magic go fast goods, but no place to work on it. When I get back into a house with a garage things will move forward. For now, im just collecting parts to make this happen. It's an impressive shopping cart so far....

I completely understand that.
Though if I had this to do all over again, I'd rather look at my pretty parts on a shelf and watch my car rot. I hope you can get yours together before that happens to you, heh.


ALLTRBO MSG #321, 12-16-2011 09:29 PM
      Okay, next up...

This is what I should have received on my car, anodized black top and all (I specified that, too):



Vs. what I did receive:




Here is the other part of what I found when I took off the wastegate...
Poorly hogged out holes (and not even a simple hand de-burring with a larger drill bit) and lovely vice marks:



(washers must be evil, they weren't used very often on this build)





Vs. the right way (valve seat insert and all):





While we're at it, lets have a look at the great seal on the ghetto teflon-taped barb fitting. Another exhaust leak. Surprise, surprise...



I saved the best for last. As I previously mentioned, these were stripped in the mating flange and barely more than finger tight.
Two simple bolts. Too big, used and in nasty condition, and completely different from each other in just about every way. Not even the heads are the same size. The different thread pitch? That takes the cake:





I can't take pics of the mating flange on the POS Y-pipe right now, but of course it looks just as bad. What this all means is that I can't even install the new wastegate without repairing the Y-pipe with M8 helicoils (if they'll even fit in the stripped M10 threads) or building a new one entirely which needs to happen anyway because it doesn't line up to the manifolds. Thanks.

Again, HOW DO YOU SCREW THAT UP?

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 12-16-2011).]

Pete Matos MSG #322, 12-17-2011 02:47 PM
      Alltrbo....
Jeez man I am very sorry you are having this trouble with your car. I can see from the pics that things were not done well and I do not see how anyone can look at those pics and think any of that will fly. Specifically the proximity of high heat elements and things that can burn. I do not know what you paid for this work but from the threads I have read about Haus of Guru and his builds I was quite amazed it can reach well into the many thousands of dollars. It is also troubling that despite any disagreements between yourself and him about what you are building and how, that he seems to be blaming you for a lot of this. I am sure that pisses you off as it would really unhinge me. I honestly do not care what you intended to build or how , this man comes on here and quite often touts how amazing his skills are and how high quality his builds are and apparently charges a premium for them. If you are going to conduct yourself and try to present yourself as an expert in this sort of thing, you had better make damn sure you can back it up. The fact that he apparently received a FULL and DETAILED description of your build plans and you went back and forth with it and he ACCEPTED the responsibility to do this work negates to me any argument about what he WANTED to do with the car. If he thought your design sucked as he said then he should have never taken your money and accepted the vehicle into his shop. The resultant work and condition of the car does not match what you intended nor does the quality meet with yours (or anyone else's) standards for a professional level build. I am sure seeing these pictures plastered on here really pisses him off and will not do much to further his reputation as a fiero professional but to see his responses quite honestly makes this all look very bad in my opinion.

I read where he said that he does not NEED to do Fiero work.... well quite honestly I cannot imagine why someone would want to do this type of work unless they really loved Fiero's. These cars are not your typical mustangs, camaros, or vette's where everyone seems to have one and there is a large aftermarket for them. So to take on custom work for these cars takes a level of commitment you probably will not see in other makes. To come on here and say that he really does not make any money on them and that he is not gonna do certain builds is kind of a cop out if you ask me. If you are a professional car builder and you are gonna take on work of this type and talk about all the different swaps and whatnot you have done then why would you make these statements? You are either in fiero's or out....

To be honest with you if I towed my car to some PRO's shop and paid a bunch of money for them to BUILD my car and now I am finishing the build thread MYSELF on the same car I would be awfully pissed off about it. I do not blame you one bit for posting this here and quite honestly the responses he has made about it does not show me that he is a true professional regardless of the issues with this car. A true pro would take care of it even if it cost him money. Anyone who is willing to put up their sign and take in work doing custom engine swaps in these cars take note here. You are either all in or all out... If you take someone's money to work on their swap, you better have the skills, know how, integrity, and professionalism to not only build it right and pretty the way the customer wants but you need to have the integrity to back up your work no matter what. If a build is too crazy or unorthodox for you have the nads to say no thanks and stick to what you truly know how to do. It is just that simple.... Honestly I don't care if your customer gets on a forum and calls you and your momma everything nasty under the sun, have the professionalism to stand behind your work and make it right regardless. It is after all your name and work that is under the magnifying glass here. If you do not have the courage and integrity to do that then find some other line of work.... It really is just that simple.....

Pete


ALLTRBO MSG #323, 12-17-2011 07:40 PM
      Well said Pete. Thanks for your willingness to post your opinion here, a lot of others won't. I don't mind hearing opinions either way as long as they're posted in a reasonable manner.


ericjon262 MSG #324, 12-26-2011 10:53 PM
      I have to agree with Pete, if you're being paid to do something that you agreed to do, then you do it. if you don't want to, don't agree to.


ALLTRBO-

Got any updates for us?



ALLTRBO MSG #325, 12-27-2011 05:55 PM
      No updates yet, Friday before last a girl ran a red light and T-boned my DD Camaro so I've been dealing with that and working out details for trading that in on a 2012 SS since I don't want to keep the 2010 anymore.

ericjon262 MSG #326, 12-27-2011 10:28 PM
      10-4 keep us posted! good luck on the trade in.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #327, 12-28-2011 09:06 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

No updates yet, Friday before last a girl ran a red light and T-boned my DD Camaro so I've been dealing with that and working out details for trading that in on a 2012 SS since I don't want to keep the 2010 anymore.


No C6?
Week saws.


ALLTRBO MSG #328, 12-28-2011 08:30 PM
      Teh wifey won't have it. I don't blame her.

They tweaked the suspension on the 2012 SS's (now FE4), I think it worked. It doesn't feel *as much* like a truck anymore.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #329, 12-30-2011 01:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Teh wifey won't have it. I don't blame her.

They tweaked the suspension on the 2012 SS's (now FE4), I think it worked. It doesn't feel *as much* like a truck anymore.


If you get an autotragic, she could drive it too

Not feeling like a truck and not *being* a truck are two different things...

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-30-2011).]

ericjon262 MSG #330, 01-26-2012 01:39 AM
      got any updates for us?



ALLTRBO MSG #331, 01-26-2012 11:45 PM
      Nope.

I am hoping to get out of this ICCU tomorrow, though.
A nasty virus attacked me early Monday and on Tuesday I started having severe chest pains especially while breathing which turned out to be Pericarditis and I also had some indications of Myocarditis, but today it let up a bit. I've had two sets of chest x-rays, five EKG's and an Echo. They are going to do a TEE tomorrow to figure out why my right ventricle looked partially collapsed in the Echo. (Don't worry, I don't follow all of that either, but hopefully they'll let me go soon anyway. )

Well it might not be the one you were looking for, but it is an update!



ericjon262 MSG #332, 01-28-2012 01:12 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

Nope.

I am hoping to get out of this ICCU tomorrow, though.
A nasty virus attacked me early Monday and on Tuesday I started having severe chest pains especially while breathing which turned out to be Pericarditis and I also had some indications of Myocarditis, but today it let up a bit. I've had two sets of chest x-rays, five EKG's and an Echo. They are going to do a TEE tomorrow to figure out why my right ventricle looked partially collapsed in the Echo. (Don't worry, I don't follow all of that either, but hopefully they'll let me go soon anyway. )

Well it might not be the one you were looking for, but it is an update!


DAMN dude, that's a hell of a list! get well soon, hope things turn around.



ALLTRBO MSG #333, 01-28-2012 10:01 AM
      Thanks man. I forgot to mention that they took at least 20 vials of blood through a total of 6 different holes in my arms and hands. Some of those vials were sent out and the results won't be back for up to a couple weeks, but hopefully they'll tell me what exactly I had/have.

I'm home! The TEE showed that the ventricle was okay. I do apparently have a small hole between two of the chambers, but they say that's normal for 15-20% of the population. That wall also moves around more loosely than it's supposed to, but that's apparently okay as well.
That test sucked. They sprayed a strong numbing spray down my throat before putting me out so they could ram a tube down to get an ultrasound through my esophagus (something like that) which gives them a clearer picture, but when I woke up I couldn't talk because it felt like someone ran a hone through my throat. Gah.

I'm still sick but it's letting up, the fever is gone and I can breathe without pain now, mostly. The inflammation has subsided, thanks in part to the Prednisone that I'm now tapering off of. I'll be fine, but that was too close for comfort in my eyes!

[This message has been edited by ALLTRBO (edited 01-28-2012).]

katore8105 MSG #334, 08-16-2012 08:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

No updates yet, Friday before last a girl ran a red light and T-boned my DD Camaro so I've been dealing with that and working out details for trading that in on a 2012 SS since I don't want to keep the 2010 anymore.


Ah Man, that sucks! I liked your Camaro!


ericjon262 MSG #335, 09-13-2012 11:43 PM
      you finally put down that 2012 for a minute to get some work done?!?!

ALLTRBO MSG #336, 09-14-2012 08:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by katore8105:
Ah Man, that sucks! I liked your Camaro!

Yeah, it does suck, but I like my new one better. The old one was actually totaled out and I got full trade-in value for it, so it could have been worse.

 
quote
Originally posted by ericjon262:
you finally put down that 2012 for a minute to get some work done?!?!

Yes, I got lots of work done. Just not to any of the cars. :/


ericjon262 MSG #337, 12-13-2012 06:37 PM
      bump??

carbon MSG #338, 10-15-2013 12:22 PM
     

hookdonspeed (hookdonspeed@gmail.com) MSG #339, 10-21-2013 12:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by carbon:



LOMFL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

but yea, any news?!?! start selling me parts if not


ALLTRBO MSG #340, 10-22-2013 12:00 PM
     

carbon MSG #341, 10-24-2013 03:44 PM
     

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #342, 12-05-2013 03:13 PM
      You're going to have to haul that heap over to Sterling with your new Silverado SS so that I can get it on the road for you before I get a high falutin' exec job.

hookdonspeed (hookdonspeed@gmail.com) MSG #343, 12-13-2013 02:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

You're going to have to haul that heap over to Sterling with your new Silverado SS so that I can get it on the road for you before I get a high falutin' exec job.


I still think he should just donate all the turbo parts to a good cause... aka me



Doober MSG #344, 12-24-2013 12:35 AM
      I wanna see more Looks like a great build, too bad it took a side road.

ericjon262 MSG #345, 11-16-2014 09:55 PM
      Updates?

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #346, 11-18-2014 05:52 PM
      Crackin' tha whip...

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #347, 02-02-2015 11:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by bmwguru:

edited while I rethink the situation....



Thought it through enough yet?

You're not fit to tune a lawn mower and I wouldn't take your shop an RC car.

ALLTRBO's having some health issues, so I'm helping him unscrew your work.

In order to use the pushrod length checker, I have to remove the lower intake manifold. I pulled everything down to the point of being ready to lift the manifold off, but stopped because we hadn't drained the coolant, and it was late.

NOTHING I TOUCHED HAD GOOD WORKMANSHIP.

- The fuel pressure regulator was connected to the PCV system. There's a big part of why it ran rough.

- The fuel return line was hacksawed, NOT EVEN DRESSED, much less beaded/flared, in the middle of a bend and the return hose slipped on over it.

- The charge pipe I took apart to remove the throttle had the same treatment... rough sawed edges in the middle of a bend with no attempt made to dress the cut. IN THE MIDDLE OF A BEND, so there's no straight tube for the hose to clamp to, much less a bead to hold high boost.

- The throttle cable housing bracket is screwed to the strut tower. DO YOU REALIZE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN TO THAT WHEN THE ENGINE MOVES ON ITS MOUNTS?!?! This defect is actually dangerous to drive.

- The throttle cable bracket didn't fit the end clip on the cable housing, but the plastic clip was pounded into the bracket anyway.

- The pin and sping clip GM used to secure the throttle cable to the throttle cam had been replaced with a random screw with a mangled phillips head and an odd size nut.

- The lower manifold bolts had varying numbers of marcel washers on them. Obviously you mixed up the washers and couldn't even be bothered to count how many washers you had to put on each bolt.

- Odd and mismatched bolts everywhere, as if you took all the bolts off, tossed them in a bucket, kicked the bucket over and lost half the bolts, then picked up replacements at Home Depot Racing.

- Upper intake manifold bolts poorly torqued.

- Used a 3/8" wide pulley on the tensioner, causing the serpentine belt to shred within about 20 minutes of IDLE time following delivery.




nosrac MSG #348, 02-03-2015 10:35 AM
      I've been there with a bad turbo install so I know exactly how it feels.
Hope to see this thing back on the road running like it should.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #349, 02-03-2015 03:48 PM
      It's not just that it's a bad install.. he was paid for it and denies that there's anything wrong.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-03-2015).]