LSJ Supercharged Ecotec Swap
Topic started by: ccfiero350, Date: 05-18-2007 10:00 PM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000094.html


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #1, 05-18-2007 10:00 PM
      My 88 4 banger is leaking from the main seals and a perfect swap is this motor and trans.




Factory option G85 Limited Slip, final drive ratio 4.05

The shifter will be a simple affair, I plan on using the stock getrag cables and shifter.

This baby holds 6 quarts of mobile 1. I need to fab a engine mount some were around here.

As you can see from the last two images there are not any good meaty bolts on the bottom to use as anchers.




ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #2, 05-18-2007 10:38 PM
      There has been a lot of interest in the G6 6-speed transmission. The F35 5-speed on this motor is a good option also. The limited slip is just gold. Later on I'll look into making an adapter to mate one of these to a SBC using an Archie flywheel. The axles from the ion/cobolts looks to fit right into the fiero.


The fiero outboard CV joint (mit nut) vs. the cobolt. Same spline.

Cobolt axle in a fiero hub.

The inboard CV joints, fiero on bottom. The cobolt (top) is bigger, the dia. is 1.175 with the spline count at 27@1.150" OD, all though the tulip is smaller diameter. The fiero getrag starts at 1.375 then down to 1.07 with the spline at 1.05".




The left and right side inboard splines are the same. I only have the left axle from the cobalt and it measures 23" end to end when fully compressed. When the engine is in the cradle and the axle is in place in the relaxed state, It looks like the right side needs to be about an inch shorter if everthing is the same. I'm still waiting on the right side axle to find out if I can use both cobolt axles unmolested.




ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #3, 05-18-2007 11:06 PM
      The ecotec has many cool things going for it like all the accessories bolt to the block for a nice tight package. But the a/c pump is mounted very low and runs into the exhuast hump on the front cross member.

Roger Thelin (352) 375-8259 makes a kit to bolt in the 2.2L ecotec with the F23 5-speed be replacing the old cross member with one of his design.

IMG]http://images.fieroforum.com/pffimages2/PICT0011a.jpg[/IMG]





[/QUOTE]

The 2.0L has a deeper pan and the F35 is also a differant monster from the F23 so new brackets will be needed. I am using his front cross member and will be using factory style front & rear mounts.



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #4, 05-18-2007 11:28 PM
      Let me be the first to welcome you to the road of the ecotec fiero

Good luck, I believe you will be one of the first for the LSJ and the limited slip tranny to top it off!

You may run into some probs with the supercharger hitting the firewall, WTFB setup will be closer than mine,
because of the lean the stock mounts will give you but I have only a small amount of room between the intake manifold and firewall and that room might non-existant with a supercharger.

Cannot wait to see pics of that thing installed!


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #5, 05-18-2007 11:34 PM
      The frame mod is pretty simple.



Cut the vertical weld here first.



Roger's instruction are cut the vertical on the line that connects the bolt holes, the dotted line shows the crack that goes completly thru, so the more acute angle is what gets cut.



This shows the new cross member welded to the old one before I cut that diaginal line.



This is the other side before I cut off the old cross member. Doing it this way keeps the frame straight with little effort. Hat's off to Roger!



This POS is what I'm welding with. The cheap import mig was given to me because they broke the plastic wire drive the 2nd week after they bought it at auction. No vender, no parts. That was 7 years ago. The torch and wire feeder on top of it is an old ESAB unit, like 20 years old and runs off the welder open circuit voltage and came with 50 lbs of flux core wire in it. It has it's own contactor in it to keep it safe when your not welding with it. I had to wire the mig so it on all the time to power the wire feeder. Getting it to work was fun but it's not what you call a consitant good welder. At least it was free and does'nt need gas.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #6, 05-19-2007 12:09 AM
      Here's the engine up on the work table in the subframe.















The engine is tilted back to the rear so that the oil pan bottom is flat. I may weld some temp straps on and fix it in place and do a check fit in the engine bay before I get too deep into the brakets.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #7, 05-19-2007 12:55 AM
      Ooo. Finally a build that I've been drooling over forever. Can't wait to see the updated pics. This is a thread to follow.

Little side question: what's the hp on that engine, it seems to me that nobody can make up their mind on what the actual hp # is. I know GM underrated the engine on purpose, but it only adds to the confusion. This engine is out of the Cobalt SS, correct? (simple short answer would suffice, don't want the thread to go off topic into a discussion)


-M


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #8, 05-19-2007 01:22 AM
      This engine came out of a 2006 Saturn with 8000 miles on it. GM advertise 205 hp at the crank but a lot of people who have dynoded their cars are finding 210 to 215 at the wheels. GM also offers 3 staged upgrades to bring it up to around 300 hp.



Edaw 0 MSG #9, 05-19-2007 07:36 AM
      Yay! Someone else I get to live through. Can't wait to see the results of this one.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #10, 05-19-2007 12:34 PM
      if you get rid of the jackshaft assembly,will the stock fiero axles fit right in ? as i understand it ,the jackshaft is just to help eliminate torque steer ,not a problem with a rear drive car .nice build ,keep the pics coming !

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #11, 05-19-2007 02:35 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

if you get rid of the jackshaft assembly,will the stock fiero axles fit right in ? as i understand it ,the jackshaft is just to help eliminate torque steer ,not a problem with a rear drive car .nice build ,keep the pics coming !


No, this tranny takes the same axle spline configuration as the F40, they are both originally Saab transmissions and more than likely the F35 has the same offsetting of the final drive carrier that calls for different length output axle stubs at the tranny, in other words you can't fully insert an axle shaft in the right side of the transmission so the jackshaft would be manditory.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 05-19-2007).]

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #12, 05-20-2007 12:07 AM
      Joseph is correct, the fiero axles will not fit into the jackshaft or the transmission either. Good news is the cobolt axles fit the fiero hubs. The F23 transmission will except the fiero splines. I think both F23 & F35 are wider at the differantial and would make the long fiero axle too long.

At this point I could use 2 RH cobolt axles to make the swap work. I'm hoping the LH cobolt axle is a little shorter. I'll should be getting one next week.

The published torque ratings of the new transmissions.

F23 5-speed 170 ft-lbs
F35 5-speed 258 ft-lbs
F40 6-speed 295 ft-lbs
I not sure what the getrag is rated as, 170 ft-lbs?

Does anybody know if the F40 have the same bell housing bolt patern as the F35 & F23?



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #13, 05-20-2007 12:57 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

Joseph is correct, the fiero axles will not fit into the jackshaft or the transmission either. Good news is the cobolt axles fit the fiero hubs. The F23 transmission will except the fiero splines. I think both F23 & F35 are wider at the differantial and would make the long fiero axle too long.

At this point I could use 2 RH cobolt axles to make the swap work. I'm hoping the LH cobolt axle is a little shorter. I'll should be getting one next week.

The published torque ratings of the new transmissions.

F23 5-speed 170 ft-lbs
F35 5-speed 258 ft-lbs
F40 6-speed 295 ft-lbs
I not sure what the getrag is rated as, 170 ft-lbs?

Does anybody know if the F40 have the same bell housing bolt patern as the F35 & F23?



The jackshaft is the only thing that properly inserts into the right side of the F35 and F40.
Both Cobalt axles will be the same length, it would defeat the purpose of the Jackshaft for them to not be. As for the tranny torque ratings, I believe they can be increased because they are based on a max vehicle weight as high as 5000 lbs particularly for the F35, I believe that's why GM lists a max gearbox torque and max engine torque for the transmission so that the two combined do not exceed the strength of the gearbox, the lighter the load that has to be moved the less stress on the gearbox. So subtract the weight of the Fiero from the max weight the transmission is rated for, calculate the # of lbs per lb/ft for the max weight the tranny is rated for, then divide that into the difference of the vehicle weights and you should be able to add that to the above rating for your application. I believe it was near 350 lb/ft for the F40.

The Saab F40 may have the same bellhousing as the Cobalt. The G6 version of course has the V6 pattern.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 05-20-2007).]

Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #14, 05-20-2007 03:58 AM
      Are you saying that the F35 axles (with the half shaft) may work with the F40 and the Fiero Spindles? That would be nice. A little O/T, but it would be nice

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #15, 05-20-2007 06:49 AM
      the fiero axles fit right in to the F23 and are the right length .the slight difference in width is made up for by the amount of in and out movement available on the stock axles .there are 3 of us who have done this already .i doubt that the fiero getrag is rated the same as the F23 .even if it was ,its still 20 years older .use the F23 and save all the rebuilding costs.

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #16, 05-20-2007 08:10 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

Are you saying that the F35 axles (with the half shaft) may work with the F40 and the Fiero Spindles? That would be nice. A little O/T, but it would be nice


The F35 and F40 are both Saab Transaxles originally and take the same axle spline configuration. The intermediate shafts are different in GM cars but the same on the Saab, the Cobalt has a female ended intermediate shaft like the Saabs, the G6 uses a male ended intermediate shaft so you would have to make a mounting plate for the Cobalt intermediate shaft to work properly with the F40 mounted to a non Ecotec engine which will not have the mounting bosses for the Ecotec intermediate shaft in the proper location.

The other issue which has been aluded to already is the axle length, You may be able to get away with using the complete axle set from the Cobalt on the F40 in the Fiero by repositioning the assembly since the F40 axle output seal is 2 inches closer to the left frame rail and one inch further away from the right frame rail in the Fiero compared to the Getrag, so positioning it one inch further to the right will leave you with about 1" less plunge depth but that all depends on the drivetrain assembly height on the cradle and the length of the axle with the Fiero outboard joint cup installed since the bearings, cage and race are interchangeable. If the Cobalts joining axle is 32 spline instead of 33 like the G6s you can swop the complete Fiero outboard joint on to the axle.

Fiero wheel base 93.4"
Cobalt wheel base 103"
G6 wheelbase 112.3"

Thanks for what you have posted here CCFIERO350, it has helped the F40 swop along tremendously due to what I suspected and have now confirmed through your posts after finding that both transmissions were original Saab units and used the same intermediate shaft on some Saab cars.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 05-20-2007).]

FieroWannaBe (patond@alumni.msoe.edu) MSG #17, 05-20-2007 04:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:
Fiero wheel base 93.4"
Cobalt wheel base 103"
G6 wheelbase 112.3"




those stats are irrelevant for the transmission, you looking for track width, even then scrub radius and offset effect it.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #18, 05-20-2007 05:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroWannaBe:


those stats are irrelevant for the transmission, you looking for track width, even then scrub radius and offset effect it.


Those specs are not intended to note the transmission but the fact that the axles are different lengths because of it. I was intending to list the actual track specs and got it all mixed up and listed the wrong specs.

Here are the widths that will better represent the actual track
G6 70.4
Cobalt 67.9
Fiero 68.9

I hope to acquire some Cobalt axles this week for some comparisons in hopes that they will be the right length for the job.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 05-20-2007).]

Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #19, 05-20-2007 05:17 PM
      Very Interesting and informative post! High technology lightweight engine with great horsepower potential but IMO a difficult swap for the experts. Makes you wonder if Fieros would be using an Ecotec if they were being made today. Looking forward to hearing about the road tests.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #20, 05-20-2007 08:58 PM
      I don't think it's all that diificult, it's just uncommon. Roger is selling kits now and the 2.2L ecotec and F23 are very common place and can be had in the $500 range.

I think after a few of these get done and along the way, refined parts, procedures and knowledge base will increase in quality and affordabilty. And it will become more common then the Quad 4 swap before long.

One of the main reasons for doing the 4 banger is that at 2.0L I will race in a class that I may have a chance at winning something. And the LSJ engine and LSD transmission combo really are just incredibable.



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #21, 05-20-2007 11:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

I don't think it's all that diificult, it's just uncommon. Roger is selling kits now and the 2.2L ecotec and F23 are very common place and can be had in the $500 range.

I think after a few of these get done and along the way, refined parts, procedures and knowledge base will increase in quality and affordabilty. And it will become more common then the Quad 4 swap before long.

One of the main reasons for doing the 4 banger is that at 2.0L I will race in a class that I may have a chance at winning something. And the LSJ engine and LSD transmission combo really are just incredibable.


Exactly why I ditched my 3.8 for the ecotec. The 3.8, although torquey and not a bad motor put me a class that I was just wayyy underpowered. I cannot wait to race mine again


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #22, 05-21-2007 12:40 AM
      when i first put in my ecotec ,i had it running in less than 6 weeks .there are a lot of statements like "it wont run without the stock hvac controls "or "if you dont have the donor cars radio hooked up the motor wont fire" or "the passlock system is impossible to get around "all these statements have been proven false .the only thing difficult about this swap is if you dont have all the donor car wiring harness and want to make the stock fiero guages interface with the ecotec harness . good luck with that one but i think rodo did that on his auto swap already .i used the cavalier harness and guage cluster because i dont care about a stock look because other than the body ,my whole drivetrain is modified any way .i cant wait to see how the supercharged engine runs .i am having lots of fun with my turbo set up .i have owned lots of fast cars and i am not kidding when i say this is the fastest car i have ever owned .the lighter weight and quick reving make it hard to keep my foot out of it .i cant imagine how fast fieroturbos setup will be .his motor is almost full race .

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #23, 05-21-2007 01:09 AM
      I've done a lot of research on the electronic side of things. The LSJ ecu is differant from the regular N/A ecotecs. My goal was to use the factory harness and ecu as a stand alone unit. SC cobolts only have 4 gauges, tach, speedo, fuel and boost. Very nice looking I may add. Then it has a cool two line alpha/numeric display that tells you the rest. All the guages are diven from either the fast bus or slow bus. There is a bcu (body control unit) that takes care of every thing in the cabin and talks to the ecu thru the same buses. This can be done but I will probably go with an after market engine controler just because it's quicker and I will not loose as much billable time.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #24, 05-21-2007 03:20 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:

Very Interesting and informative post! High technology lightweight engine with great horsepower potential but IMO a difficult swap for the experts. Makes you wonder if Fieros would be using an Ecotec if they were being made today. Looking forward to hearing about the road tests.



I would bet money on that!! Ecotec is GM's global powerplant, and a great engine at that I might add. I used to think that the Honda engines were much better than the Ecotec (was very disappointed to find out that the U.S. spec Ariel Atom has an Ecotec powerplant), right until my friends (some of them are avid import fans) and some research convinced me that the Ecotec is an awesome engine. It runs much smoother and is better balanced than Honda engines too.

Speaking of: I think Loyde at FastFieros is either planning-, or already did similar swaps including the tranny. I'm sure he'd be willing to help out too.

Yay!!! We're a couple steps closer to make the Ecotec a common swap for Fieros.
-M


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #25, 05-21-2007 11:35 AM
      One thing I need to make clear, if your going 100% standalone (ie no stock computers at all) you (we) need to figure out how to make the alternator put out at its full potential. It is controlled by the stock computer, and without it connected to it, it will only charge at about 11.2 volts, with all the fiero accessories about 10.7volts. Its just enough to run everything on the car at once, but it wouldnt crank it back over after I had it running for a while.
Just to let ya know


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #26, 05-21-2007 12:51 PM
      The alternator are a little smarter then they used to be. The LSJ uses a higher ouput version then the L61 but uses the same control signals. The small 2-wire plug that goes into the alternator turns it on.

On the L61,
Pin 1, OG color, is Generator Turn On Signal, needs 5 Volts to make it generate voltage. The ECU controls voltage with a PWM 15-87% duty cycle.
Pin2, GY/WH color, is Generator Field Duty Cycle Signal, is a PWM output to tell the ECU how much load is on and to adjust idle speed compensate for high electrical loads.

Tying pin 1 to +5volts will turn it on, I do not know if the internal regulator will take over and maintian the battery.



FIEROPHREK MSG #27, 05-21-2007 02:42 PM
      I've hard that you can bolt a Throttle body from the LS V-8's right up to the supercharged eco. Is that true? If it so i got one here collecting dust, it's from my LS4.



longjonsilver (longjonsilver34@juno.com) MSG #28, 05-21-2007 06:55 PM
      im really excited to see another ecotec swap. im awaiting enuf guys to do this one that i might be able to attempt it myself. right now the skill level is too great for me. ill be watching this one develop
jon



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #29, 05-21-2007 10:22 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FIEROPHREK:

I've hard that you can bolt a Throttle body from the LS V-8's right up to the supercharged eco. Is that true? If it so i got one here collecting dust, it's from my LS4.


The throttle body is an issue. The LSJ uses the fly by wire technology and the stand alone EFI units do not incorporate this. I have not researched much in this direction. Can you measure the bolt patern and bore diameter?

Thanks,



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #30, 05-22-2007 08:55 AM
      by the pictures it looks like the engine / tranny wiring harness is all complete .can you go and get the donor cars wiring harness ? the ecu and bcu ,large fusebox ,small fuse box and all the relays and connectors are all incorporated into the package .you wont be able to make your saturn guage cluster work without the bcu .the harness it connects to comes out of the bcu .also does the drive by wire incorporate the throttle position sensor ? if it does then it probably goes through the bcu as well .
my swap was very easy to do because i got all the factory stuff out of the donor car . if you are worried about not wasting billable time ,spend the money and get the rest of the donor car's parts that you will need .since you are starting with a four banger ,you need a new fuel pump too .you might as well use the one that was meant for it .when you have all the factory parts , it all becomes plug and play .


FIEROPHREK MSG #31, 05-22-2007 10:09 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

The throttle body is an issue. The LSJ uses the fly by wire technology and the stand alone EFI units do not incorporate this. I have not researched much in this direction. Can you measure the bolt patern and bore diameter?

Thanks,




The LS4 is fly by wire I can measure the bolt pattern and post up a few pics too.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #32, 05-22-2007 01:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

by the pictures it looks like the engine / tranny wiring harness is all complete .can you go and get the donor cars wiring harness ? the ecu and bcu ,large fusebox ,small fuse box and all the relays and connectors are all incorporated into the package .you wont be able to make your saturn guage cluster work without the bcu .the harness it connects to comes out of the bcu .also does the drive by wire incorporate the throttle position sensor ? if it does then it probably goes through the bcu as well .
my swap was very easy to do because i got all the factory stuff out of the donor car . if you are worried about not wasting billable time ,spend the money and get the rest of the donor car's parts that you will need .since you are starting with a four banger ,you need a new fuel pump too .you might as well use the one that was meant for it .when you have all the factory parts , it all becomes plug and play .


Yea, that's the only way I would attempt it. Use the stock computer, Dash, fuel pump, engine+tranny, Cat, and everything. Side effect: It should be C.A.R.B. legal in California. (assuming you start out with a CA car (made to CA spec) from the boneyard)

-M


BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #33, 05-27-2007 08:44 PM
      Nice work. This thread has intrigued me. I think a Fiero would make a very good home to the SC Ecotec. Curious why you didn't save yourself alot of hassle and just go with a stand alone EMS?



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #34, 05-28-2007 12:16 AM
      I will be using the MSD ecu when it becomes available next month (cross fingers & hope everybody stays on schedule) Once you add it all up it becomes the easer choice. If I had the entire donor car it would have been easer to use the cobolt stuff.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #35, 05-28-2007 11:15 PM
      i was looking at the msd unit too and it looks very promising ,especially since it is ecotec specific and they will also make harnesses .also tuneable just like an hp tuner setup .

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #36, 05-29-2007 09:56 AM
      There are some trade offs. With the MSD unit it will be techically not be emissions compliant, although it may pass the treadmill test using the 1988 standards for the car.

The MSD unit is a bank to bank batchfire fire, speed density type ecu. So I'll loose a tiny bit of low speed drive manors and a little MPG and it may be a little persnickety untill it warms up.
Here is a link that shows some more information on the ecu.
http://www.umiracing.com/ga...y/Images/Catalog.pdf

The goal of the car is to be a street legal track car that I can beat the snot out of with out the worries of breaking drive line parts. So I can certainly live with all that.



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #37, 06-14-2007 02:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

The alternator are a little smarter then they used to be. The LSJ uses a higher ouput version then the L61 but uses the same control signals. The small 2-wire plug that goes into the alternator turns it on.

On the L61,
Pin 1, OG color, is Generator Turn On Signal, needs 5 Volts to make it generate voltage. The ECU controls voltage with a PWM 15-87% duty cycle.
Pin2, GY/WH color, is Generator Field Duty Cycle Signal, is a PWM output to tell the ECU how much load is on and to adjust idle speed compensate for high electrical loads.

Tying pin 1 to +5volts will turn it on, I do not know if the internal regulator will take over and maintian the battery.



I just tried this using the TPS 5v reference wire, it did not work and it really pissed MS off, until I unplugged it megasquirt refused to turn on. Anyone know a good way to reduce 12~14.4volts to 5 volts?


AP2k (argonplasma2000@gmail.com) MSG #38, 06-14-2007 03:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fosgatecavy98:


I just tried this using the TPS 5v reference wire, it did not work and it really pissed MS off, until I unplugged it megasquirt refused to turn on. Anyone know a good way to reduce 12~14.4volts to 5 volts?


Voltage regulator. You need to know how much power you need to drive it, though.

This looks good: http://rocky.digikey.com/We...T,%20FP%20Series.pdf


FierociousGT MSG #39, 06-14-2007 10:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

The ecotec has many cool things going for it like all the accessories bolt to the block for a nice tight package. But the a/c pump is mounted very low and runs into the exhuast hump on the front cross member.

Roger Thelin (352) 375-8259 makes a kit to bolt in the 2.2L ecotec with the F23 5-speed be replacing the old cross member with one of his design.


Is Roger Thelin the older gentleman from Gainesville that had the silver Ecotec notchie at the Daytona '07 show?


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #40, 06-15-2007 12:27 AM
      thats him .

FierociousGT MSG #41, 06-19-2007 01:27 PM
      Just got off the phone Roger, here is his site:
http://www.noidearecords.com/thelinsells/


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #42, 06-20-2007 12:56 AM
      I'm glad Roger has his site up. I've bought his parts and they are top notch.

I've been to an x-cross in Houston and a two day drivers education school at Texas World Speedway since the last time I updated this thread.


I updated the four banger with adco bars fore & aft, brake job and new koni shocks up front and took it racing. I'll post that stuff on another thread when I get the photos back. I'm keeping notes as the car progresses into a full blown track car and will post my opinions on relative merit of the mods performed.

I got the remaining cobolt axles finally.
This images is larger than 102400 bytes. Click to view.
The left (yellow tag) and right (green tag) axles are the same length.

The intermediate shaft stub details. I think this is the same for the 6 speed.


I mocked up the suspension with the cobolt axles and fiero hubs and centered the engine.


This view shows Roger Thelin's torque strut mount plate on the ecotec and the top part of the headers mounted.

The cobolt's track is about an inch narrower the the fiero so there is about 1/2" of slop that each cup will take up. The outboard CV joint does not have the dust shield the fiero ones do but I can live with it.

I spent the entire time on the recipient host chassis prepairing for the track then this engine/cradle in the last three weeks so progress will be slow for the next few weeks as time allows.

Thanks for every bodies comments.




wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #43, 06-20-2007 02:08 AM
      looks like a simple solution to everyones 6 speed axle problems .also it means i could easily adapt an f35 to my 2.2 setup .great work ,your pictures are awesome .

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #44, 06-21-2007 05:45 PM
     
Not the thread jack but this is the thread that I got the most responses from

I got the alternator to turn on, I orginally tested it using 4 1.5v batteries and then after it turned on,
I got a little device that converts 12volts into a few different volt setttings, not 5 volts tho, but 4.5 turns it on.
The problem: Im not sure how many amps I am getting out of it. It seems slow to respond. It dips under 13 volts when
I turn the fan on or hit the lights up. With the flashers on it goes between 13.3 and 13.8. Charges at 13.75 according to Megasquirt.
Anybody else have any comments on that?


AP2k (argonplasma2000@gmail.com) MSG #45, 06-21-2007 06:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fosgatecavy98:


Not the thread jack but this is the thread that I got the most responses from

I got the alternator to turn on, I orginally tested it using 4 1.5v batteries and then after it turned on,
I got a little device that converts 12volts into a few different volt setttings, not 5 volts tho, but 4.5 turns it on.
The problem: Im not sure how many amps I am getting out of it. It seems slow to respond. It dips under 13 volts when
I turn the fan on or hit the lights up. With the flashers on it goes between 13.3 and 13.8. Charges at 13.75 according to Megasquirt.
Anybody else have any comments on that?


Maybe the DC signal is freaking the regulator controls out? You said that it was suppposed to see a pulse-width modulated signal btween 15-87% duty cycle, correct? If you feed it pure DC, it may not know how to handle a 100% duty cycle signal and might be reverting to some failsafe power output.

556 timers are your friend.

[This message has been edited by AP2k (edited 06-21-2007).]

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #46, 06-21-2007 10:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by AP2k:


Maybe the DC signal is freaking the regulator controls out? You said that it was suppposed to see a pulse-width modulated signal btween 15-87% duty cycle, correct? If you feed it pure DC, it may not know how to handle a 100% duty cycle signal and might be reverting to some failsafe power output.

556 timers are your friend.



There are 3 wires to the alternator, 1 goes to the battery
wire A: is the alternator turn on which requires 5 volts, thats what I have 4.5 going to and its turned on.
wire B: looks for the wave signal, I have nothing hooked to that.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #47, 06-21-2007 11:19 PM
      The Pin 1(orange for the L61) If held at 5V will default the generator to 13.8V. It thinks your shorted to B+, it'll run your car and charge your battery but it not going to give you all it's got.

There is a lot going on between the BCM (body control module) and ECM (engine control module). The BCM monitors the battery and controls the alternator unless the ECM overides for

engine cooling fans are on high speed
high fuel demand
calc ambient air temp is less then 32 Deg F.

There could be a very cool little black box if somebodies good with PWM circuits.

Here's the goods to make the generator do its thing all the way.

The L-termanal control signal is a 5 Volt pulse with modulated (PWM) signal of 128Hz with a duty cycle of 0-100%. Normal duty cycle is 5-95%. The either extremes are for diagnostics purposes.

The following table shows command duty cycle and output voltage of generator.
0%______0V
10%_____11V
20%_____11.56V
30%_____12.12V
40%_____12.68V
50%_____13.25V
60%_____13.81V
70%_____14.37V
80%_____14.94V
90%_____15.5V
100%____13.8V

As you can see you could make a Dail-O-Voltage box with this data, if your real good with some programing you can combine timers with inputs so you boost idle voltage when the a/c comes on or just after it cranks for 20 seconds like the factory does.

Some stand alone efi controllors have programable PWM outputs just for stuff like this.



Ravant MSG #48, 06-22-2007 02:41 AM
      Not gonna be very helpful here, but I am going to say, congrats on getting a hold of this powertrain. It's the same swap I'm hoping to complete down the line, but every time I attempt to get my hands on a parts car, something comes up on the seller's end to where I can't seem to get my hands on one. Good luck with the swap.

Are you planning on installing GM's stage 2 upgrade kit into this motor? Or are you going to leave it at the stock 205 hp/200 tq rating?

Also - what is the significance of the lack of the outboard CV-joint dust shield? Will that leave a drop in overall reliability? Or is it an inconsequential little thing?

[This message has been edited by Ravant (edited 06-22-2007).]

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #49, 06-22-2007 10:51 AM
      I found this drop out on www.used-parts.com but if I were to do it again using the stock ECU/BCU & harness I would get the whole car and pull the parts myself.

If you buy on the internet, you may get something shipped from another dismantler then the one you sent your money to. Warrenty issuse are PITA! These are parts from wrecked cars after all. I'm still waiting on the correct replacement transmission 2 months later. The sent me an F23 rather then the F35. (long story)

On engine upgrades, Yes please! The intended purpose of the car is to take it to the track a lot. After seeing a stock SS cobolt at a x-cross event I can see the need for more rpm's or a steaper gear. In 2nd he would hit the rev limiter and in 3rd it sounded like it was just under the sweat spot. The stage 2 & 3 mods adds power were it's needed. I promised myself I would get an award with engine upgrades after I get the engine mounted.

The CV dust shield, IMO is to keep the slurry mix from packing behind the sealed bearing. I have not replaced a rear hub bearing yet and I think it would come with a new seal. I have asked for just the seal before and there were none listed. The pair that I have removed were rotted out and did seal anything. There is a drain slot cast into back of the knuckle. I'm going to mask off and paint the back of the bearing and knuckle, grease it and call it done.



Ravant MSG #50, 06-22-2007 01:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:
but if I were to do it again using the stock ECU/BCU & harness I would get the whole car and pull the parts myself.


That's exactly what I've been trying to do. Even moreso because I'm going to be going from a 3-speed auto to the 5-speed manual (F35).


AP2k (argonplasma2000@gmail.com) MSG #51, 06-22-2007 02:24 PM
      ccFiero, you has PM.

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #52, 06-22-2007 03:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

looks like a simple solution to everyones 6 speed axle problems .also it means i could easily adapt an f35 to my 2.2 setup .great work ,your pictures are awesome .


Not quite though they will help. The G6 intermediate shaft is male ended, the Cobalt/Saturn intermediate shaft is female ended.

That means you'll have to adapt the Cobalt intermediate shaft to the V6 when used with the 6spd, and that will require an adaptor plate to attach it to the block mounting point.

The intermediate shaft used on the Cobalt/Ion looks identical to the intermediate shaft used on the Saab 9-3, tubular and I believe I have a picture of it in my 6spd swop thread.

I'm getting ready to order a set of Cobalt axles now to compare to the G6 axle length.

As for the outboard joints, unless the axle center shaft has a different number of splines than the G6 axle center shaft, the inner races of the outboard joints are interchangeable between the Fiero and Cobalt joint assemblies so that you can use the fiero joint cup and have the dust shield if you want.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #53, 06-22-2007 10:07 PM
      so to get the cobalt axles to work with the 6 speed just means you have to use the cobalt ss jack shaft as well .that would not be a problem as most wreckers would be happy to sell the whole assembly as a unit rather than a piece at a time.i dont think it would be much work to fab a bracket to adapt the cobalt jackshaft to a v 6 .it would be no work at all to mount it to a 2.2 because it has all mounting holes predrilled for every chassis /tranny/body it is used in.i am not dissing your thread here ,i have followed it since it started .you have done a ton of work to adapt the 6 speed tranny to the fiero .it just seems like the answer has been staring us in the face and somehow none of us have seen it till now.

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #54, 06-22-2007 11:22 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

so to get the cobalt axles to work with the 6 speed just means you have to use the cobalt ss jack shaft as well .that would not be a problem as most wreckers would be happy to sell the whole assembly as a unit rather than a piece at a time.i dont think it would be much work to fab a bracket to adapt the cobalt jackshaft to a v 6 .it would be no work at all to mount it to a 2.2 because it has all mounting holes predrilled for every chassis /tranny/body it is used in.i am not dissing your thread here ,i have followed it since it started .you have done a ton of work to adapt the 6 speed tranny to the fiero .it just seems like the answer has been staring us in the face and somehow none of us have seen it till now.


The other problem I forgot to mention is that if I recall correctly the Cobalt jackshaft and G6 jackshaft are not the same length, in which case adapting the Cobalt jackshaft to the V6 may not be enough, especially since it is already on the short side with the Ecotecs 5 speed. To further complicate the matter the F35 5spd does not appear to share the same 1" right output seal offset to the left, further away from the right side that would take an inch away from what is already a 1/2" to short, almost guaranteeing an axle malfunction if any function at all. So it's close but at the moment unless proven otherwise not close enough.

Maybe with the G6 driverside axle which should be a little longer than the Cobalt axle it will work.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 06-22-2007).]

dratts (dratts2@gmail.com) MSG #55, 06-22-2007 11:26 PM
      One of the 3800SCs that I've seen used the entire donor car cradle and suspension. Just made front cradle mounts to place the cradle in the desired spot. Wouldn't that eliminate all the mounts and axles etc that need to be fabricated, making the installation a lot easier and proven reliability of components that are factory matched to each other. I'm not suggesting that you start over (I wouldn't) just some food for thought.

dratts (dratts2@gmail.com) MSG #56, 06-22-2007 11:27 PM
      By the way that's a great looking engine! How much does the engine tranny weigh fully dressed?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #57, 06-23-2007 12:35 AM
      Joseph, what is the compressed overall length of the G6 axles? I'm looking at some tight oil pan clearances that I could avoid if I could jog the motor over to the driver side a bit.

I did look at getting the donor subframe to scab off the engine mounts. The cast aluminum mounts extend outboard of the transmission pretty far, far enough to interfier with the muffler and run smack dab thru the roll bar. But its about the same work at stabbing in a 2x3 box tube pieces and making your own.

The ecotec motor wieghs about 50 lbs less then the duke and the transmission with the LSD wieghs in about 107 lbs. I think. If I can get it to an honest 300 hp @ under 8000 rpms at the wheels I think I may have the fixings for a wicked track car.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #58, 06-23-2007 07:27 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

Joseph, what is the compressed overall length of the G6 axles? I'm looking at some tight oil pan clearances that I could avoid if I could jog the motor over to the driver side a bit.

I did look at getting the donor subframe to scab off the engine mounts. The cast aluminum mounts extend outboard of the transmission pretty far, far enough to interfier with the muffler and run smack dab thru the roll bar. But its about the same work at stabbing in a 2x3 box tube pieces and making your own.

The ecotec motor wieghs about 50 lbs less then the duke and the transmission with the LSD wieghs in about 107 lbs. I think. If I can get it to an honest 300 hp @ under 8000 rpms at the wheels I think I may have the fixings for a wicked track car.



Compressed length is 23 5/8", I don't have the intermediate shaft here with me, UPS lost it, they delivered the empty box though, with busted seems, big hole in the bottom and all.

Looking back through the thread posts I see that the Cobalt axle is 23" compressed so that will help using the V6 and F40, the remaining problem is the driver side axle in that scenario. Since the driverside F40 tranny seal is 2" closer to the left it's possible to move the assembly 1" to the right to center it since the right seal is shifted 1" to the left. Problem is I don't know what the compressed length of the driverside Fiero axle is to know how much space I'm working with. So far it still looks like using the little short shafts I had made and female inboard cups to accomodate the Fiero axles maybe the most practical. There is also the possibility of cutting and resplining the outboard end of the G6 axle which Moser can do for about $50 I assume since it's less than a $100 a pair if I recall correctly.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 06-23-2007).]

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #59, 06-23-2007 10:17 AM
      The getrag driver side axle is 22 1/2" long compressed. I would think it would be a better package to retain the intermediate shaft if you have something to locate the bearing on the side of the engine block. The cobolt's tripot cup is smaller (about 3") then the fiero so it can get closer to the engine mount.

Good to hear about the G6 axles, I think I'll get one and see if I can get my pan clearances with out notching the frame.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #60, 06-23-2007 12:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

The getrag driver side axle is 22 1/2" long compressed. I would think it would be a better package to retain the intermediate shaft if you have something to locate the bearing on the side of the engine block. The cobolt's tripot cup is smaller (about 3") then the fiero so it can get closer to the engine mount.

Good to hear about the G6 axles, I think I'll get one and see if I can get my pan clearances with out notching the frame.



If you're interested I may have an extra G6 axle to get rid of since I have the Cobalt axles on the way. The stock Fiero axle being only a 1/2" shorter than the Cobalt axle doesn't offer much promise considering the total of 2.5" of combined length being taken up on the driverside. There is probably only 1" of plunge depth room on the Fiero axle. I don't like the idea of shifting the assembly to the right 1" so it looks like I may end up sending one G6 axle to moser to have about 2" cut off and then respline it. The right side on the Fiero appeared to check out but I don't have the compressed length of the long axle to compare numbers. Since the Cobalt axle is 5/8" shorter than the G6 axle it will probably be all that is necessary to take care of the right side. I don't know the length of the G6 intermediate shaft either for a total length compared to the Fieros long axle.


Found it, the long axle is 38 7/8" compressed, now I need the G6 intermediate shaft length.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 06-23-2007).]

jmarek78 (jmarek78@sbcglobal.net) MSG #61, 07-07-2007 02:34 AM
      I can't believe I didn't notice this thread sooner... I've had my LSJ/F35 mocked up in the fiero cradle sitting on the floor for a good 4 months now. I tilted mine a little more than the cobalt setup to clear the cradle without any major cutting, and to keep the supercharger and the dipstick out from underneath the rear window. Then I bought a C4 and sorta lost interest in the fiero... but I'm going to start working on it again soon. Have you looked into fabricating the trans mounts yet? I've been thinking about modifying these mounts to fit the fiero: http://bwoodyperformance.co...th=23&products_id=55 ...The rear one should be real easy. The front will probably require me to cut into the cradle, but the cradle should be strengthened at that spot anyway to handle the torque load (I see you've got that covered already). The side mount will be easy to attach to the fiero frame rail and at that point my setup will be the same as what the cobalts are running, so I should be good to go.

I'm glad to see someone else is doing this so I can borrow some ideas

This images is larger than 102400 bytes. Click to view.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #62, 07-07-2007 11:07 AM
      Glad to have you on board.
I'm in the process of fabbing the mounts now. In fact I scanned in the poster board templete of the front tranny last night. I do believe I will be replacing the rear cross member with another 2x3 tube. Very much like fieroguru"s here.


As you have observed the rear transmission mnt for the F35 is just too far away for my tastes, from the stock subframe mnt location. And the fact the original crossmember looks like hammered crap now anyway from all the jacks through the years.

Since this is going to be a track car, it will be thrashed on a regular basis and the subframe/engine mnts are to be made to stand the rigors of racing.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #63, 08-10-2007 04:52 PM
      *bump* for updates
-M


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #64, 08-11-2007 09:49 AM
      After a long interuption of working for a living I'm back playing in the shop.
I have replaced the rear cross piece with a strait piece of 2x3 tube. Today I'm going to mockup the engine/cradle again and fab the fore and aft trans mounts. I'm photo documenting as I go and will post the images this weekend to get everybody caught up.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #65, 08-25-2007 03:15 PM
      it's the weekend.

*bump for updates*


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #66, 08-25-2007 10:41 PM
      Finaly sat down and orginized a little to post some updates.

After centering the engine/transmission and setting the driveline hieght the oil pan is too close to the subframe rail.



That pluged port just about touches the frame. So I'm going to cut out a section and weld back in a piece to give it clearance.



Looking down along the original 88 center mount, there is about an 1" of clearance between it and the bottom of the pan. I was hoping I could re-use it but there was any room for things like nuts, bolts and bushings.



I welded a stiffener to the bottom of the subframe to keep everything in place before the amputation.



The section was removed and a piece of 1" angle was welded back in. I capped of both ends. I left the outside wall of the subframe to weld to.



I used the plasma cutter as close as I could the side pieces.



The drivers side. Not really a whole lot of metal holding things together.



The air chisel really worked well peeling the stub sheet metal off. Also did well on removing the bulk of the welds from the good metal. I was later told from a friend two blocks away he could hear the racket inside his garage.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #67, 08-25-2007 11:18 PM
      The factory rear transmission mount was too far away from the hard mnts on the F35 transmission. Rather then doing a funky dogleg transmission mnt it made sense to replace the rear crossmember with 2x3 tube and make a strait transmission mnt. Also raise the tube up to allow me to route the exhaust anywere under it. As a by product it makes it stiffer too.



To get all the compound cuts and notches I used the old trick of wraping the tube in poster board, taped it up and used scissors to cut the paper templete. Then you just slide it back on the tube and mark it.



The top of the new cross member sits 1" over the subframe.



The tube is slotted and fits over the web of the rear chassis mnt tower. This will stiffen it up a little bit.



Here you can see how it's been trimed to fit the back side. Later it will be all MIG welded up.



The factory rear bar and bushing has about a little over 1/8" clearance over the new piece.



Using a polypushing you can see it moves the bar up more. Addco bars use a simular bushing that you have to drill a new top hole.


I've made the front and rear transmission mounts and tacked them on the subframe. I worked on the center mnt today and I'm about halfway done with it. I should finish fabing it tomorrow and will post the transmission brackets pictures then.


Thanks for all the good words.



Riceburner98 (riceburner98@gmail.com) MSG #68, 08-26-2007 10:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:


There could be a very cool little black box if somebodies good with PWM circuits.

Here's the goods to make the generator do its thing all the way.

The L-termanal control signal is a 5 Volt pulse with modulated (PWM) signal of 128Hz with a duty cycle of 0-100%. Normal duty cycle is 5-95%. The either extremes are for diagnostics purposes.

The following table shows command duty cycle and output voltage of generator.
0%______0V
10%_____11V
20%_____11.56V
30%_____12.12V
40%_____12.68V
50%_____13.25V
60%_____13.81V
70%_____14.37V
80%_____14.94V
90%_____15.5V
100%____13.8V

As you can see you could make a Dail-O-Voltage box with this data, if your real good with some programing you can combine timers with inputs so you boost idle voltage when the a/c comes on or just after it cranks for 20 seconds like the factory does.

Some stand alone efi controllors have programable PWM outputs just for stuff like this.



Any idea if the input to the alt. needs to supply any sort of current, or only a few mA? The last PWM box I made with a microcontroller was in the kHZ range, 128hZ should be easy to hit with plenty of processor power left over for checking inputs. If I ever get caught up with all the projects I'm working on I'll have to try this. I printed out the post as a reminder. If anyone's built one already, feel free to let me know so I won't be duplicating work.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #69, 08-26-2007 11:05 AM
      I don't know about the input impedance but it's a good bet if it's a 5V logic, it would be TTL.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #70, 08-29-2007 04:21 PM
      Thanks for posting the pics. Really cool to see the progress. :-)

Would it be easier to use a non '88 cradle/Fiero, or would there be similar challenges involved in getting the engine mounted?
Would similar problems exist with the alternator when using the stock ECM? (Would have to anyways to make the car C.A.R.B. certified)



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #71, 08-29-2007 08:47 PM
      I think it would be a little trickier with the earler subframes with the toe links and all.



Riceburner98 (riceburner98@gmail.com) MSG #72, 09-05-2007 08:39 PM
      Hey... In an effort to not hijack your thread into an alternator thread, I started a new one --> http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/085824.html about building an alternator "exciter" thingamabob. It's already prototyped and outputting 128Hz at a 50% duty cycle, just need to figure out how many inputs people would want on the thing and what voltage they should output... Also timers, etc... Should be cake.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #73, 09-08-2007 11:02 PM
      The brackets to mount the transmission are made from 1/4 plate steel cut by hand with the plasma cutter.



But first I made poster board templates after the engine is postioned relative to the subframe.



Fresh off the grinder.



The rear was done the same way, ovoiding the stock rear sway bar at full droop.



The 1/4 thick plate is great at the welds and bolt holes strength wise, but really too much metal for the job in the web areas, so a few well placed holes take a bite out of the excess weight while keeping it strong enough for the job.



Same for the front mount.



Mounted in place it looks pretty cool too.



The 2x3 tube brackets are the same front and back from 1/8 flat bar stock. The 1/2 bolt hole was drilled through all 4 pieces at once on the drill press before they were welded on.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #74, 09-09-2007 09:12 PM
      The center engine mount proved to be tricker then the other mounts. The engine has two good bolt bosses on the exhaust side. The best place for the mount would have been directly under the crank but there no good bolt bosses on the intake side to make a good straddle mount.



I had a big piece of 4" angle, 1/4 thick, that started the whole thing off.



I placed the pivot in front of the toe link so I could get at both fasteners with a wrench. The crush tube goes through to the pocket.



Here it is welded up. The area directly under the bolt is releaved to allow clearance for the bushing once assembled.



Pleanty of room to put a wrench on it.



Fore & aft clearance.



The inside support bracket was cut from a c-channel piece from an old rack we had at work, it's 7/32 thick and over lapes the bottom of the subframe about an inch.

This images is larger than 102400 bytes. Click to view.

The center mount was made with really thick stuff so out came the drills.

Everything bolt up well enough to start the last mount, torque strap. I'll need to test fit the engine/subframe in the car then fab the strap.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #75, 09-10-2007 01:36 AM
      Wow!! That's a lot of work to make this engine work. I'm in awe!!


jmarek78 (jmarek78@sbcglobal.net) MSG #76, 09-15-2007 12:21 PM
      Wow, you've really gone over the top with this project. Have you fitted the motor into the car yet? Nice work!

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #77, 09-15-2007 10:52 PM
      I'm going to have to put it in if I'm ever going to drive the notchie again. Blew the 2.5L today at Texas World Speedway. Down shifted, blipped the throttle and my foot slipped off the brake pedal and matted the throttle just as I released the clutch. Don't know how high it went but lost a cylinder at turn one by then end of turn two I had zero oil pressure. Turned off the track before turn 3 and it sounded just like a VW flat 4 running on three.

So I'll be motivated to move this along as fast as I can or I'll miss some track time.



CTFieroGT87 (ct5585@yahoo.com) MSG #78, 09-16-2007 11:12 AM
      Fantastic work. I've been thinking of Fieroguru's strengthened cradle and what you did for the rear crossmember looks great!



Flyguyeddy (be329@lab.icc.edu) MSG #79, 09-19-2007 06:13 PM
      how much did the Thelin sells kit cost?

do you have mechanical drawings of your mounts for the supercharged engine?


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #80, 09-19-2007 09:22 PM
      Roger's link is at the top of the page. Roger probably has plans for a LSJ version as soon as he gets his hands on one.



fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #81, 09-20-2007 04:30 AM
      has anyone used Roger Thelin's mounts? It looks like he uses the dogbone strut as the upper engine mount... anyone haave any experience using this? wftb, I thought your upper mounts were fabbed to connect to the cradle below, weren't they?



Flyguyeddy (be329@lab.icc.edu) MSG #82, 09-20-2007 06:54 PM
      i would just like to know how much they cost

Edaw 0 MSG #83, 09-22-2007 06:44 AM
      I have a set from him, but it'll be awhile before I can work on the car. Paid $60 for them.
Give him a call, he's real good about getting to you.

[This message has been edited by Edaw 0 (edited 09-22-2007).]

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #84, 09-22-2007 10:15 AM
      Finished up welding the sub frame and time for the first trail fit in a car.



I dropped the V8 from the GT and wheeled the LSJ under it. I have to say the LSJ was way lighter then the iron block V8 by the feel of rolling it around on the dollies. It would be great to wiegh then both at this point. The V8 still has about 30 more lbs. to add with the rest of the intake installed.



Once in, it was appearent the Tsudo headers are not going to work unless I completely remove the trunk wall. Too bad, they look good and are the right size for the motor.



Front clearance is real good so far. But the front sub frame bolts are not in yet and need to go another inch up.



Shock tower clearance is good but does leave a lot of room for a torque strut.




The tranmission butt end also good clearance.



The belt side, also plenty of room. On this particular car I dimpled the car frame a little for more clearance for the V8 lower pully/dampner some time ago.




ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #85, 09-22-2007 10:29 AM
     

The OEM cast iron exhuast still could be used.



The subframe is almost in. I need to drop it again and tweek the front ears a tad. I think the doner frame was a little off. The front tongues are about 1/4 squeezed in. I should have checked for square before I started.

I plan on working on it all day so I'll post more picts tonight.



Wht&BluGT MSG #86, 09-22-2007 12:13 PM
      Looks good. Just one question/concern. How hard is it going to be to change the oil on that, isn't the filter under the supercharger?

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #87, 09-22-2007 01:53 PM
      You must have the motor back farther, I got the tsudo header in there with about 3-4 inches between it and the trunk wall... but I dont have a supercharger either

Edaw 0 MSG #88, 09-22-2007 03:56 PM
      Nice work and that header looks reall nice. Any chance of you going with a smaller trunk?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #89, 09-22-2007 08:09 PM
      The factory oil filter is located under the &^%*#(!) super charger and it takes a (#^(!#$)$ extension just to get the cap off then you got to pull the &*%^$ filter up out of the holder. But it will not fit between the (^#!($ engine and super charger so you have to move it lateraly forward to get it out. Did I mention these are (^*$!)($!))&$!( CARTRIGE ELEMENTS!

I plane on a remote spin on filter as soon as I can.



niemann99 MSG #90, 09-22-2007 08:17 PM
      I notice that the motor is at the stock tilt of 15 degrees toward the rear, if you tilt the motor /trans straight up so that you can use the Tsudo headers, will the supercharger hit the firewall?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #91, 09-22-2007 11:24 PM
      The motor is tilted back the same as the oil pan pick up. If the pick up is not flat your likely to suck air at some point when the oil moves away the inlet screen.

I set my axles to be parallel to the lower links and horizontal at ride hieght as they are a tad shorter the fiero axles. So the engine is were the axles said everything should be.



I stretched the front mounts out use my trusty ole jack.



I need to see if I can find a better dip stick location. You can still get at it from the back or side but with the deck on it my be a pita.



The aluminum pan is about 3/4" above the lowest point of the OEM steel.



Pully side shows it will be the same effert of the stock belts for change out.



I had wondered about the lid fitting over the cam cover. The ecotec is as tall as the V8. Bit there is good clearance here too.



Over all it was good fit first time in. I very pleased except for the cool Tsudo headers. I'm not thrilled about the cast iron one, and I was trying to save the trunk floor. I like to drive the car to track events so I need a little room for all the stuff. And on the other hand I HAVE thought of losing what weight I can by completely cutting the trunk out and making a tubular X-brace to replace the structure would be nice.

Anyway , tomorrow I finish the torque strut.




fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #92, 09-23-2007 03:23 AM
      I just had a crazy idea...what if you put a turbo on your LSJ? No, no. "Keep" the blower on it. It would be the GM version of a P-47's turbo-supercharged Pratt &Whitney 18 cylinder radial... you'd probably have to beef up the crank and rods, and the head.. the boost would be CRAZY.



pHoOl (matt.janik@gmail.com) MSG #93, 09-23-2007 09:43 AM
      There have been some people that have twin-charged the LSJ. I think http://www.redlineforums.com has a few that have done it.

I'm very interested in this swap as well, though I have to tell you that none of your pictures are showing up for me, as they say I don't have permission on the server.

At any rate, this will make a great kit for someone to make after the kinks have been worked out. I"ll be curious to know what the weight is when you're done, as well as the F/R weight ratio.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #94, 09-23-2007 10:44 AM
      I think the PIP image host is having problems. They were there yesterday and they posted okay.

I agree the LSJ makes a great package, I wish I had a set of scales too. Once I get it all together I'll see if I can find a shop and get it corner wieghted.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #95, 09-23-2007 04:01 PM
      i got rid of the bottom of my trunk .much easier to run exhaust . i tried and i couldnt get two sets of golf clubs in there anyway so it isnt much of a loss .when i made my motor mounts i just used the cavalier stock mounts and welded on some brackets on the cradle .the high motor mount is an 'A' type frame that comes up from the cradle .i then put the dogbone on the bottom like the cavvy has .but i see that the cobalt lsj has a different mount system and a different oil pan .i dont know if my mounts would work with that engine or not .
nice work on the swap ,looking great so far .


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #96, 09-23-2007 09:30 PM
      I think if I had the left & right side mounts of the ecotec I may have made use of them. The front and rear that I did have did not complament the frame geometry that I had to work with. That belt side mount might have worked for the torque strut. I not get one so I made my own.



The oem engine mount bracket was in a good place to make a torque strut. The rack channel get's another bite out of it as it's the right size and guage.



The only part that get's welded to the car frame are these two ears from 11 guage sheet. I'll have to spot them on with the engine in place, then drop the engine and weld them in fully. The shock tower is re-enforced. It's actully 3 pieces thick at the top. The ears are wide enough to spread out the load and the inside one is tangent to the tower wall.



The engine mount bushings are the same as the front and back. So I'm expecting the same amount of compliance out of all of them. With the internal counter balancers in the ecotec I'm not expecting undue vibration.



The last of the engine mount bits.


Next, shift linkages.



Flyguyeddy (be329@lab.icc.edu) MSG #97, 09-28-2007 06:26 PM
      mighty fine buildup!

Wht&BluGT MSG #98, 09-30-2007 12:11 AM
      any updates?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #99, 09-30-2007 10:34 AM
      I got the shift arms re-positioned on the transmission and the select cable mounted. I should finish it today and post some images tonight.

Thanks for the nice words.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #100, 09-30-2007 10:44 PM
      The MU3 transmission has simple levers coming out of the case. I thought it would be a simple matter of rotating the levers to point to where the cables come from. Nope.



My basic test rig. I clamped the stock shifter to the frame and used a set of Rodney's getrag cables to mock it up. I used the oem linkage alignment holes so I new were at least 1 gear was.



The old ecotec cable shown in the oem location. My plan was to rotate the levers about 110 degrees as shown and make new mounts using the available bolt holes.



The holes have to be filled in before you drill new ones as they coinside on the ID. After you weld and drill they need to be reamed back to 14mm as the welding distorts the hole and it's a precision fit on the selector shafts. It's also a good idea to drill through just one wall first, then finish drill the other on the selector shaft using it as a guide. It's real easy to screw the hole ailment and you won't get your roll pin all the way through.



The selector cable mount was cut off a old shifter and welded to 3/16 plate. It clears the reverse switch just barely. It has to be plugged in before you bolt it on. This is shown in the nuetral position and the cable is perpandicular the the lever arm and is on the same rotational plane.



After this I mocked up some bar stock to see if I got the other geometry right. Nope. The shift pattern is a mirror image top to bottom. I forgot the ecotec shifter lickage picks up one of the cables from the other side of the shifter axis then the fiero. The select cable works, puts the reverse detent way rightside so I'll need to rotate the shift lever 180 to put 1st gear back up top. Bad part is that the counter weight crashes into the select lever. I started on fabbing a new shift lever to avoid the crashes.

I also need to get another Ultimate Getrag Shift Kit from Rodney to put back on the GT. The one I had is a little shorter now.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #101, 10-07-2007 10:47 AM
      I finished out the shift linkage mounts.



The select cable bracket got put together and cut apart twice, so it's a little frankenstienish.



I used Rodney's shift cable clamp to hold the cable on the new bracket.



The select bracket mounts to two horizontal bolts with deep bosses.



The bracket does clear the reverse switch, but you have to have it plugged in before you mount the bracket.



The shift bracket uses a horizonontal bolt on the side and two vertical bolts on the top from the oem transmission mount.



I made a new shift lever using the ball stud and counter wieght from the original.



The ball is much lower then it was. Given the angle the shift cable has to be pretty high up to keep everything aligned right.



My design intent was to make the brackets stiff as they can be to minimise the lash in the shifter. The shifter feels real good on the bench. Next time the motor is back in the car I'll find out if I need longer cables.



Flyguyeddy (be329@lab.icc.edu) MSG #102, 10-07-2007 05:03 PM
      god i love this build. its basically my dream engine. i sure hope you made drawings of those mounts!

i want to replicate it all.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #103, 10-09-2007 12:03 AM
      I started gathering bits and pieces to fab the exhuast. First I needed to put the new adjustable rear bar from HHP. Looks great Paul.



I was thinking of dropping the exhuast in front of the bars but there is not room for the pipe radius.



I found a nice machined flange on line for 3" tube, a little over kill but I had a bunch of 3" tube from the V8 exhaust.



I need to get a cat before I start cutting & tacking.



I still like the Tsudo, but I would have to section the trunk wall and still cut up the lower part of it. It's actually sitting on the frame.



I found this wheezer from a solstice GXP. It's all backwards for the fiero setup but it almost bolts right up.



If anybody is thinking about doing this you will need to get the solstice GXP water transfer pipe. The cast turbo exhuast header interferes with the LSJ version. The GXP must dogleg futher away. Other wise It's a perfect fit.

I need to get something for a muffler too.



fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #104, 10-09-2007 02:05 AM
      This is a great build, man. that is some great welding you're doing on the shift brackets. I concur with the gentleman who hopes you documented your work, you could make some dough selling this as a kit I'm sure.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #105, 10-09-2007 02:49 AM
      Damn, didn't think that the shift brackets would be that much of a headache. Glad you've worked it out. Hopefully there will be a shift kit by the time I get around to doing a swap like yours. (Probably by that time Turbocharged Ecotecs from the Chevy HHR-ss will be available for less than an arm and a leg.)
Please keep documenting well. We all love pictures. Tons of them.


Eau_Rouge MSG #106, 10-09-2007 11:18 AM
      I agree, this is definitely my favorite thread. Can't wait to see it completed.

As was said above, if you're into making kits for this setup, I'll definitely be a buyer in the future.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #107, 10-09-2007 11:57 PM
      The shifter brackets were a little tricky, lot's of geometry and trying to make it work with existing 20 year old parts. I'll find out if it all works well when the motor runs again.

Thanks for all the good words.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #108, 10-11-2007 12:09 AM
      The HPP adjustable rear sway bar interfered with the rear trans mission bracket that I made to clear the OEM bars. The HPP bars sit on blocks that move them forward a bit. In a stock V6 or I4, this would not be an issue but the F35 transmission is bigger then the 282 and nothing is remotely simular in my particular setup, so I wipped up a new one to clear everybodies bar.



The bar is sitting on the old bracket in the mid-position of the slotted holes on the poly mounts.



The basic new bracket in check fit before I cut the hole for the bushing tube.



Shown all welded up with lighting holes. I may grind a tad more clearance on the vertical surface as I expect about a 1/4" of movement at full load. This one fits better then the first one so I'm happy.

I'm waiting on the new cat and some tube donuts before I start on the exhaust.



toadson (tsinclair212@gmail.com) MSG #109, 10-13-2007 12:48 PM
      I wanted to do this swap, but opted for the L67 swap since its been done many times before. It's awesome to see you doing this build thread though, keep up the good work!

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #110, 10-13-2007 10:48 PM
      Put the engine back in to start on the exhuast while I am still waiting on the cat and donut tube.



I intalled the shifter cables and everything fit pretty good. I swapped cable holes in the firewall and ran the shifter through the select hole (smaller & nearer to the transmission side) to get as much length as I can. If I were to order custom cables I would make the select about 3" shorter and the shift about 5" longer to be perfect.



But it's usable like they are with no tight bends.

There must be a reverse lockout on the cobolt ss as 5th will not be selected if the shifter is pushed all the way over to the reverse gate. There is no detent in the transmision when the select is position for 5th or further over for reverse. So I may have to make one later if it's an issue when it runs for the first time.



Wht&BluGT MSG #111, 10-23-2007 06:16 PM
      looks good!

any plans to put any of the gm performance parts upgrade kits on it?
http://www.crateenginedepot...Stage-Kits-C196.aspx


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #112, 10-23-2007 10:14 PM
      As you read this various stage 3 go fast goodies are hurling themselves at the speed of ground shipping to my door step.



Wht&BluGT MSG #113, 10-24-2007 09:35 PM
      sweet

fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #114, 10-24-2007 09:41 PM
      ccfiero350- man I can't wait to see this thing hit the road, 1/4 mile times, 0-60, mpg, etc.



darkhorizon MSG #115, 10-24-2007 09:49 PM
      I think you may have just wasted your money, the stage 3 pcm is untunable... The "intercooler mod" is mostly junk also. My LSJ crew stays away from stage 3 stuff like its the plauge

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #116, 10-25-2007 12:06 AM
      It won't be running on the oem box. I have a delphi mefi4 controller thats fully programable.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #117, 10-25-2007 12:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fierodeletre:

ccfiero350- man I can't wait to see this thing hit the road, 1/4 mile times, 0-60, mpg, etc.



Yea, I'm totally waiting for that too..

It's my dream swap. Well right next to the Turbocharged Ecotec out of the Solstice/Sky/HHR-ss (latter is a fwd setup, few years, and one should be able to find it at boneyards, or insurance auctions.) Hopefully by then people will offer kits.

I kind of wish, I could run the stock computer though. I'm in Cali, and it's for emissions. ccfiero350, thanks again for posting lotsa pictures.


-M


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #118, 10-25-2007 05:18 PM
      I can't wait to get it on the road either. I just came back from a HPDE with the Porsche Club from Austin driving my VW diesel and have maxxed the experance of being passed by everybody in my class at least once in a session.

I have been working on the exhuast and waiting on a pair of hangers from Jegs to show up. Will post the images after everything is welded up.

I'll probably remove the duke this weekend and prep the engine bay for it's new tenent.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #119, 10-26-2007 12:45 PM
      Cool... I think this is one of the most anticipated installs on Pff. Don't forget to get picture happy...

-M


CTFieroGT87 (ct5585@yahoo.com) MSG #120, 10-26-2007 12:54 PM
      Keep it up man, this swap looks great!

cy1clown (cy1clown@yahoo.com) MSG #121, 10-26-2007 12:59 PM
      ccfiero350 where did you get your delphi mefi4 controller at?

Thanks
Jon


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #122, 10-27-2007 08:45 AM
      The dephi controler for the ecotec was a spin off from the marine & crate motor ECU. UMI racing delevoloped the initial calibrations. http://www.umiracing.com/ga...y/Images/Catalog.pdf ,MSD later bought them out and is now selling them under their label. http://www.msdfuelinjection.com/pdf/frm28260.pdf I bought mine from http://www.cbmmotorsports.com/mefi.html because they had a harness in stock.

The mefi is cool little unit and the prices reflect the shear numbers these things are produced for water craft. Although not as comprehensive as the oem box, it'll git'er done.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #123, 10-31-2007 11:51 PM
      I've been swamped at work and had not posted in a while.

The exhaust was put together with some 3" stainless and a new metal substrate cat.



The cat sorta looks like a stretched out hieneken can.



To de-couple the engine from the exhaust system I put in a 6" long bellows to keep from cracking anything.



The mufflers will be these 4" Super Trapps I pick up cheap at a swap meet. I modified the cases by cutting the reducing cones at 3" dia. and inverted the remainder to center the core tube. The inside cone exit diameter is now 2 1/2".



I made a notch templete and cut the tubes with the plasma cutter and welded them up.



I have to say it was a pita the get them positioned and tacked together. I had to work backward from the muffler Y pipe to the bellows. I decided not to weld it all up untill it's in the notchie. It being as short as it is there not a lot of room for error.



You can see a little bit of that inversion cone down the case.



From the top side view I'll have a nice little trunk warmer.



I wanted a slightly differant look then the regular twin tips of a 4 banger but something that did not say coffee can.



The thing I really like about the SuperTrapps is you can tune them by changing the number of diffuser disks are if you really want to be obnoxios is leave the cores completely out and run open headers.

After all this was done I had some second thoughts and I'm thinking about cutting it apart again and run the pipes out the license plate recease like I did for the V8. I'll probably figure what I want to do by the time I need to finish out the exhaust after the motor is in the notchie.

I've begun the prep work on the notchie, ass end in the air, fluids drained, electricals disconected. If all goes well I should have the old duke out this weekend.

I will be selling some parts from the duke if anybody is interested.



fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #124, 10-31-2007 11:59 PM
      Is it a DIS duke?



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #125, 11-01-2007 12:09 AM
      Yes it is a 88 with 117K miles with no oil pressure and a missing cylinder, but still runs. (like a sick sewing machine)

The transmission is in real good shape. 5 speed. It also has a brand new throttle body. New vaccum lines and rubber. All the electrics are fine.



fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #126, 11-01-2007 12:24 AM
      How much for the vacuum lines? What do the air cleaner and valve cover look like? EGR? BTW nice work on the eco.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #127, 11-01-2007 07:21 AM
      $15 plus shipping for all the vaccum lines & hoses on the motor. The air cleaner & valve cover look good. I'll post a picture later today. EGR is new.



fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #128, 11-01-2007 01:32 PM
      PM sent.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #129, 11-02-2007 06:10 PM
      Are you going to work on the car this weekend?



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #130, 11-03-2007 09:36 AM
      Yes!, it's time for duke removal and rear clip removal and engine bay prep.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #131, 11-03-2007 12:54 PM
      Cool... Great to see you moving forward on this. Especially the pictures.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #132, 11-04-2007 08:30 AM
      Removed the old duke and seperated it from the transmission. Did a quicky post mortum on the duke. It appears the oil pump failed first, then when the lifters collasped I lost a cylinder, then the bearings went after that.






The naked duke.

Today I'm removing the rear clip to weld up some extra holes and prep for the IMSA wide body.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #133, 11-05-2007 09:04 PM
      I took the duke long block carcase to the scrap yard and found the long block, starter, clutch & flywheel and water pump weighed in at 320 lbs. on the scales dry. I think the ecotec shipped at 500lbs complete with axles on a pallet.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #134, 11-20-2007 04:12 AM
      I pulled the rear clip to pre-pair for the install of a IMSA wide body which I'll start a new thread on later when it comes to the body work.


Mandatory naked butt in the air picture.


Had some rot under the battery tray. The horizontal flat was just gone but the frame rail was okay.


I removed all the cancerous metal. The previous owner sprayed a bunch of under coat in a can over most of the rusty area. Will have to clean it off before I paint the engine bay.


Did a trunkectomey to clear the exhaust.


Removed an ear from the old torque strute mount to clean it up a tad.


Also removed the lower bolt of the lid hinge for a little clearance and wieght savings.

I dropped the fuel tank for a pump change and will exchanged the bent coolent tubes for a pair of strait ones I have next.

Everybody have a nice holiday!



Wht&BluGT MSG #135, 11-20-2007 08:29 PM
      any updates?

gascarracer (ernestbauhofer@fuse.net) MSG #136, 11-21-2007 02:31 AM
      Bump

gascarracer (ernestbauhofer@fuse.net) MSG #137, 11-23-2007 06:56 PM
      bump

Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #138, 11-26-2007 12:19 PM
      bump

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #139, 11-27-2007 12:30 AM
      Had not had a chance to do much work on the car in the last couple of weeks but got some time in tonight and replaced the fuel pump.



The old pump appears to be the original AC/Delco unit. The sock filter was dark chocolate brown and was coming apart.



The fuel level sender was in good shape for 117K miles, was not burnt and was fairly accurite. I took it apart and cleaned the rust residue off the contact points and put it back together.



Being a TBI motor the short hose connecting the pump to the fuel line was just a thick non-reforced rubber hose. These crumblies came out when I gently rolled the hose between my fingers. How long do you think, if you have a poorly running duke and you sprung a leak here you would find it?



Here's a side by side of a few in tank pumps, left to right, HP 255L/hr, 255L/hr and the original AC/Delco.



The side view shows the HP unit has a little more motor in it the the regular 255L/hr unit and is fits great in the fiero sending unit hanger.



The bag filter end shows a little differant pick up location and diameter diffance, also the middle 255L/hr has a metal end piece.



You can see down inside the inlet and see the exposed gearoter of the pump itself. This particular pump is a replacement for my truck with a 383 TPI motor which likes to run at 38-42 psi. The ecotec on the other hand likes 58-62 psi, hence the HP pump.



The pump is ready to go back into the tank. The fuel pump kit comes with a new piece of hose and clamps plus gaskets and filter sockets. Also included is a new wiring adapter from the old harnes to the new pump.

At this point when the fuel sender is hanging in the air it reads about 3 ohms. When in the tank, it read 29 ohms. Zero being empty and 90 full I bent the float arm a little so when assembled in a dry tank it reads 6 ohms, close enough.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #140, 12-07-2007 02:57 PM
      bump for the weekend?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #141, 12-09-2007 10:48 PM
      I was able to put in some time this weekend but nothing very exciting. I needed to clean off all the under coat that was applied to the inside of the trunk.



I sprayed biodiesel on all the under coat which soften it to something like chocolate syrup then blast it off with a pressure washer, repeat 3 times then wash with detergent, rinse. What a frick'n mess. You can see a before picture of the trunk posted earler. It still has an oily feel in some places. I think I'll need to get some solvent on it before paint, at least it won't catch fire when I weld on it.



While there was still some light I removed the unused torque brace.



I used a spot weld drill bit that worked very well. http://www.eastwoodco.com/j...160&itemType=PRODUCT

Hopefully I can get some time on this week and put the motor in for the first time and tack on the new torque strut mount.



timwdegner MSG #142, 12-09-2007 11:38 PM
      Great thread, thanks for all the info you're giving too.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #143, 12-16-2007 06:06 PM
      I got an on site gig till the end of the year and have not been able to put in some quality time on the notchie but I did spend most of the day on it today.



The ecotec visits it new home for the first time. The cradle bolts lined up better in the notchie then the fastback.



Before the motor went in I pulled the the electronic TB off to measure and make an adapter to mount the LS manual TB. The LS measures 75mm at the blade and the ecotec is 68mm,



The big differance is the 98mm air hose attachment diameter on the LS, the ecotec is 75mm. One of the mods will be to fill the bleed oriface in the LS with expoy and re-drill it for something with 3 liters less displacement. I would like to keep the electronic version but the mefi4 contoller does not support it.



Looking into the compressor inlet the ID is 72mm so it will be a good match for the stock LS throttlebody and a pully upgrade.



I'll use the 2 screws on the left that used to hold the filler resevoir for the heat exchanger.



Wht&BluGT MSG #144, 12-30-2007 12:11 AM
     

fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #145, 12-30-2007 12:47 AM
      Looking good!

That is one siiiiiick exhaust man... freakin' sweet! I can't wait to hear that supercharger with your exhaust... they sound cool in stock form in the Cobalts, I can only imagine what your setup will sound like.

Glad to see you're not hitting ungodly massive hurdles like with my Ecotec. It looks as though we both had similar battery tray rot-out. I did a relocation to the front with mine to shift some weight from the rear to the front. Since the Ecotec is 50 lbs lighter than the Duke, and a car battery weighs about 30 lbs, doing this engine swap with a battery relocation helps to balance out the car better than any other combination of mods out there.

So where were you planning on mounting your fusebox? I found a perfect home for mine under the driver side decklid vent. Not sure if the LSJ is the same box or not, but if it is, then it fits like a glove in that spot with minimal effort. Since my battery wasn't under the passenger side vent anymore, I swapped the thumbscrews between the driver and passenger side vents, so now I can access the fuse box without any tools.

Here's a pic of mine:



If you need more detailed pics, let me know. I can pop by the car on Monday.

Later!




ohio86se (rick44314@gmail.com) MSG #146, 12-30-2007 07:36 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

I've been swamped at work and had not posted in a while.

The exhaust was put together with some 3" stainless and a new metal substrate cat.



The cat sorta looks like a stretched out hieneken can.



To de-couple the engine from the exhaust system I put in a 6" long bellows to keep from cracking anything.



The mufflers will be these 4" Super Trapps I pick up cheap at a swap meet. I modified the cases by cutting the reducing cones at 3" dia. and inverted the remainder to center the core tube. The inside cone exit diameter is now 2 1/2".



I made a notch templete and cut the tubes with the plasma cutter and welded them up.



I have to say it was a pita the get them positioned and tacked together. I had to work backward from the muffler Y pipe to the bellows. I decided not to weld it all up untill it's in the notchie. It being as short as it is there not a lot of room for error.



You can see a little bit of that inversion cone down the case.



From the top side view I'll have a nice little trunk warmer.



I wanted a slightly differant look then the regular twin tips of a 4 banger but something that did not say coffee can.



The thing I really like about the SuperTrapps is you can tune them by changing the number of diffuser disks are if you really want to be obnoxios is leave the cores completely out and run open headers.

After all this was done I had some second thoughts and I'm thinking about cutting it apart again and run the pipes out the license plate recease like I did for the V8. I'll probably figure what I want to do by the time I need to finish out the exhaust after the motor is in the notchie.

I've begun the prep work on the notchie, ass end in the air, fluids drained, electricals disconected. If all goes well I should have the old duke out this weekend.

I will be selling some parts from the duke if anybody is interested.


Where did you get the 360deg exhaust pipe? I had found only one supplier but, they overseas.



Eau_Rouge MSG #147, 12-30-2007 02:16 PM
      ccfiero350, I'm just curious about your choice of exhaust diamater. Basically, why 3" pipe? Why not a 2.5" exhaust.

How do you choose the optimal exhaust diameter size?

Is there such a thing as too big a diameter for an exhaust such that your engine hp/torque decreases because of too big a diameter for an exhaust?



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #148, 12-30-2007 07:42 PM
      The 3" pipe is too big to have any good scavenging effect on a 2.0l motor, it will be loud but will not present any back pressure unless I remove about half the discs from the supertrapp mufflers. The only reason for the big tubes is I had some left over and I found a pre-machined header flange to mount to the stock cast iron exhaust manifold that was for, you guess it, 3" tube.

Also being supercharged to 16 psi, there is about twice as much exhuast at full boost then a N/A motor, so you can bump the diameter up a bit and use it.

Now that I have the ecotec in the notchie I am going to redo the exhuast and use the Tsudo header after I make some more room for it. The LSJ has about 10-15 more hp's just by freeing up the exhaust and I have an IMSA widebody going on it so the tips are probably in the wrong place anyway.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #149, 12-30-2007 07:47 PM
     
Where did you get the 360deg exhaust pipe? I had found only one supplier but, they overseas.


Ebay!



ohio86se (rick44314@gmail.com) MSG #150, 01-01-2008 01:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:


Where did you get the 360deg exhaust pipe? I had found only one supplier but, they overseas.


Ebay!



Well I didnt find it. Did you purchase it with the US?



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #151, 01-01-2008 02:26 PM
      You can find donuts here too,

http://chassisshop.com/



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #152, 01-01-2008 09:13 PM
      I got to work on the fiero only one day during the Holidays so this is what I did on New Years Day. I mocked up the rear suspension in the notchie with HHP new rear 1 1/4" sway bar to see if every thing was copacetic.



The bar is real easy to put in with the removable arms.



Everything fits fine with all the new hardware.



The Cobolt axles had about an inch of plunge each when the lower links were set horizontal, pretty good. I can't wait to try them out on the track.



The Stock wheels have plenty of clearance.



Stock GT wheel to set the stage.



This measurement is from the frame just behind the strut tower.



This is a 16x9 rim with 4 3/4" backspace or about +5mm offset, same measurement point.



This is an old Ronal magnesium 3 pc. racing rim, it wieghs in at about 13 lbs.



Here's the real show.

,

This off set should fill up the IMSA wide body.

I had welded up an exhuast system with the stock ecotec cast iron manifold becuase the headers I bought would not fit with out hitting the front boot wall. I really hated the idea of using the manifold so in the end I desided to lose the trunk all together and make room for the pipes. I'll but in some cross bracing and a strut bar to replace the missing structure.



AAHHH Breathing room!



There wild be some 1" sqr. tube diagonal that will tie the top of the towers back down and I'll re-route the brake lines to the front of the engine bay. Off course now I have to make another exhaust system.



Wht&BluGT MSG #153, 01-01-2008 10:47 PM
      Great Job!



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #154, 01-24-2008 01:54 AM
      *bump?*

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #155, 02-10-2008 12:25 PM
      Got to work on the car two days since the last time I posted, life has gotten pretty busy this year so far.



I expanded the trunk ectomy to the flat sides of the strut towers.



I ground down the paint were the upper engine mount will be welded.



I tacked the outside ear to the strut tower while the engine was in place and then dropped the cradle to fully weld the ear in place.





Then repeat for the inside ear.





So you end up with a nice, simple strong mount.





After I finished welding and test fitted the engine again it became appearent that I have to bolt the back of the sub-frame first, then line up and slide the bolts in on the front to get the upper engine mount threw the new ears rather then my usual methode of pinning the front and rotating the back up and bolting in. The back side of the inner ear strap is in the path of the arc the upper engine mount goes through when I attempted this way.



Next will be putting some structure back in with some cross bracing and a strut tower brace.



darkhorizon MSG #156, 02-10-2008 08:24 PM
      Sometimes I think people make these "pioneer" swaps overly complicated just so people dont attempt to copy them after the fact.

I hope your tuning and horsepower mods are on par to make this work worth it.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #157, 02-10-2008 09:26 PM
      Simple, elegant solutions are sometimes hard to come by, some times they smack you in the face, but most times it doing it a bunch of times untill it's rendered down to the simplest, easiest, best fix.



Wht&BluGT MSG #158, 02-26-2008 09:55 PM
      looking good!

any updates?


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #159, 02-27-2008 08:08 AM
      I have been itching to get back to it for two weeks but work has been getting in the way, it's starting to piss me off.



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #160, 02-27-2008 01:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

Simple, elegant solutions are sometimes hard to come by, some times they smack you in the face, but most times it doing it a bunch of times untill it's rendered down to the simplest, easiest, best fix.



Best sentence ever.

Your swap doing great, I love mine (L61 tho) and wouldnt choose another engine over it! But Id always a different motor/car combo to the stable later on.

Did you have interference with the oil pan, I cannot remember if the LSJ is different or not.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #161, 02-27-2008 01:43 PM
      The lsf pan is smooth on the bottom and holds an extra quart of oil. I had to notch the frame a little to allow room for the engine to wiggle a bit with out fear of rubbing a hole in the cover.

I really want to get it done and on the road before summer, if I can justclone myself now.



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #162, 02-27-2008 02:21 PM
      Let me tell ya that first drive is amazing . I had compliments saying mine sounded like a tamed verison of a porsche carrera, now thats the sound I want and i think your already alot closer than me lol.

Plus isnt it like SUMMER there now? lol


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #163, 02-27-2008 02:27 PM
      No man. it's cold as crap today, it's only supposed to get up to 62 F. It nearly FROSTED last night. I mowed my lawn on Sunday, it was in the low 80's though.



FieroWannaBe (patond@alumni.msoe.edu) MSG #164, 02-27-2008 04:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

No man. it's cold as crap today, it's only supposed to get up to 62 F. It nearly FROSTED last night. I mowed my lawn on Sunday, it was in the low 80's though.



Jeez, quite complaining, I wish it was 62, i could actually DO work. We still got like 2+ feet of snow, and the temp drops below zero at nights. I don't even remeber my lawn.


ICouldaBeenAV8 (donotbotherspamming@gmail.com) MSG #165, 02-27-2008 04:49 PM
      I don't turn a wrench in my garage unless it's above 70 degrees outside.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #166, 02-27-2008 05:19 PM
      That's one of my problems, I'm working on the notchie outside in the driveway and the short days make it even tougher to get things done and I hate to work on cars in the rain.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #167, 03-01-2008 09:45 PM
      Took the day off and spent some time with my honey in the driveway.



I scraped out like 3 lbs. of sealer from the two wheel well seams. It was an inch thick in some places.



I made a X-brace from 3/4" sqr. tubing .06 wall. Pretty light wieght stuff for the thirty something pounds for just the vertical trunk wall. There will be two braces, one vertcal to replace the trunk wall, and one horizontal tower brace to be made next.



The X-brace will be bolted in top & bottom. I still have to weld in the bracket ears on the horizontal tube on the subframe and gussets around the X. This will allow me to still drop the subframe and have the most direct transfer of forces to the key suspension points.



For the top I'll use the angle bracket to a mount the tube to this vertical wall on the back of the strut tower. I was going to weld it in place but got to thinking how nice it was to have all that clear access to the motor & transmission I decided to do a bolt thru with 6, 1/4-20 bolts .

Hopefully I can get some more time with her tomorrow and post some more.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #168, 04-07-2008 11:39 PM
      I got another free pass and got to work a little more on the old girl and made a strut bar.



I started off with some 1/4 plate from an old coilover kit I found in a bone yard. I plasma cut the center out and removed the welded in bolts and ground smooth.



I used some more of the scrap 3/4" sq. tubing and baloney cut the ends to match the slope of the strut towers. The 2x4 made a perfect spacer to keep the bars square while I tack them in place.



You can see the angle here a bit.



I still need the put some stiffeners in the middle but you can see how it's coming along. I'll need to put longer bolts to clear the thickness of the rings. Also to be added are the tabs for the grill thumb screws.



mcaanda (mcaanda@gmail.com) MSG #169, 04-08-2008 12:12 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:


Cool pic, I cant ever seem to get my TIG pics to come out. What machine you using there?



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #170, 04-08-2008 12:25 AM
      My daughter took that with a Kodak z812, you have to let it set exposure when it's welding or it will just white out.

The TIG is a miller 200DX, real nice little rig.



Eau_Rouge MSG #171, 05-30-2008 10:33 PM
      Come on, the suspense is killing me!

mploucha (mploucha@stu.wccnet.org) MSG #172, 06-25-2008 05:32 PM
      any thing new yet, I've been debating on whether I want to do one of these LSJs or a 3.8sc. but I'd like to know how it does first.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #173, 06-25-2008 07:05 PM
      Sorry I have not posted in a while, work has been more then expected in the last few months. Things have moved along a little bit. It's a wide body now. I will post a differant thread on that when I get the images orginized and edited.

BTW there is a LSJ with 5 speed on Ebay now for $1250.

Thanks



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #174, 07-09-2008 01:37 AM
      Hi, I was wondering if there were any updates to this swap?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #175, 08-03-2008 10:09 PM
      It's been a while, work has been brutal for the last few months and I have not been able to play in the drive way much. Mechanically I have have not progessed at all but I have bought some parts cars to get some IMSA panels.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/093715.html


The track car is now calico.

The next task is to fix the rear clip and re-do the exhaust.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #176, 10-05-2008 09:52 PM
      *bump* for updates and more pics.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #177, 10-06-2008 08:27 AM
      I have spent the last handful of weekends putting the parts cars back together enough to sell them. The new owner is picking up the last one today. It's was the 86 GT auto, now with an 88 yellow GT body panels. My wife is very pleased.

My 88 GT now is a IMSA wide body. It's an interesting body kit. The rear clip is one piece and so are the door panels. I have no idea who made it or when.

The 88 Notchie will be getting a special Norm's front clip in a couple of months and I will be getting the rear IMSA clip in shape to match.

There is a little more fab work on the rear and then I'll switch to the front.



Primaris MSG #178, 10-08-2008 09:50 PM
      Where did you get your rear coil-overs? Do they use a 2.5 or a 2.25 inch spring?

Thanks.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #179, 10-09-2008 08:43 AM
      I ordered them from Racer's Edge. If I had to do it again I would order them about 1 1/2" shorter then the factory 88 strut length. The car is lowered about two inches and the 2.5" x 12 (300 lbs) springs that I ordered with it would be better if they were 10" long.
http://www.racersedge-inc.c...004DD0CB?open&id=5.3



Bremertonfiero (anderson.b@wavecable.com) MSG #180, 10-09-2008 10:13 AM
      im thinking of doing this swap, how hard is it? compared to droping the duke and reinstaling?


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #181, 10-09-2008 10:40 AM
      That's a loaded question is it not? It depends on your skill sets. Replacing the oem motor with a rebuild is simple r&r (remove & replace). It is fun and satisfying to get it all back together and run better then when you started.

It's a real kick in the pants to make something new and push your comfort zone out a little.

The swap is not that hard and using the SS axles as they are simplify things a bunch. If you have access to a welder and can cut your own parts, it's not much harder then doing an Archie kit. (I have one too).

If you have gone through this thread and looked at all the images as it has progressed and thought to yourself "That looks easy enough, I can do that" then you got what it takes to do the job.

The only tools used so far have been:

1. plasma cutter
2. welder
3. grinding tools
4. drill press
5. cut off saw
6. card board
7. beer



Bremertonfiero (anderson.b@wavecable.com) MSG #182, 10-09-2008 07:50 PM
      well. i ampretty mechanicly minded. the only thing i dont have is the plasma cutter. can you keep your trunk or does it have to go?



BlackGT Codde (dakotaford1991@gmail.com) MSG #183, 10-09-2008 08:05 PM
      this setup is going to be rewarding in the long run and will definitely be an interesting thing to talk about when its
done
man i wish i had this much money to get a motor like that


Bremertonfiero (anderson.b@wavecable.com) MSG #184, 10-09-2008 08:12 PM
      i found one over here for $450 and the tranny 250 and the wiring harness 75

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #185, 10-09-2008 08:28 PM
      The exhaust system pretty much determines how much you have left of your trunk. I started out with the cast iron manifold that came with the motor and had to remove the bottom. I Then got a had a set of those tsudo headers but they touched the vertical wall of the trunk and about that time I made the decision to make a track car out of this one, so out came the sawsall. Roger Thelin makes a header that leaves the trunk alone and uses the factory muffler. So you do have all the options.

These LSJ motors are now more common and about half to one third the price I paid for this one. The new kid on the block will be the turbo direct injection version in the 2009 cobolt ss and HHR. Same block, different head, 260 hp stock. I've already seen one on Ebay from a soltice GXP, went for around $2300.



Bremertonfiero (anderson.b@wavecable.com) MSG #186, 10-09-2008 08:45 PM
      mine was a NA motor srry but when i say i dont have a plasma cutter i do have a oxy acettline and the ablity to use one i dont have a tig but i am a pretty good mig welder

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #187, 10-21-2008 10:17 PM
      It's been a while but I had to make some room in the drive way. I spent some time putting back together the yellow parts car and sold it.

I had a little time today to start on the front end.



I'm setting it up with a ZR1 corvette rack with Rickady88GT kit. I'm looking forward to the 2.0 turns lock to lock on the autocross course. The bad part is that the rack I got from the rebuilders is not the 2.0 turn unit, it's the regular so I'll be looking for another rack before it all goes back under the car.

Also in view is HHP splined adjustable sway bar. More on that when I get the a-arms on.

Not much else today other then getting the inner tie rods off the vette rack and mocking it up.



Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #188, 01-03-2009 10:24 AM
      WOW what a difficult swap. Any updates? I must say after reading this post, now that's fabricating!! The PCM control aspect is bound to prove interesting.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #189, 01-03-2009 11:57 AM
      Thanks for the kind words.

My regular year end work blitz is over and currently under-employed, I now have some good garage time coming up. I just yesterday welded the steering rack bracket to the front frame after sitting for a couple of months.

I'm going to focus on the front end some more once I get some more parts in to fab adjustable upper A-rms.



kevin (kevinsullivan@frontier.com) MSG #190, 01-03-2009 05:47 PM
      Bump,

Kevin


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #191, 01-17-2009 10:27 PM
      I want the rack to be mounted as rigid as possible so I replaced the rubber bushing with a poly.


The rubber bushing core is on the right. It's mostly aluminum on the inside. It's a toss as which one is more compliant in my book, the rubber is about an 1/8" thick.



All clean with a divit ground out for clearance.


Tacked in place. Looking in the cavity you can see how water would find it's way down in there and collect in the bottom. I welded up the gap and drilled two 1/4" holes in the corner at the front of the cross member edge to allow drainage.




Welded up and ready to paint.




ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #192, 01-17-2009 11:07 PM
      After welding up the rack mount I went back to finishing up the strut tower brace. I wanted something light and stiff so I got some flanging dies.


They come in male and female dies. The bigger male die is on the stack of plates.


The 2" holes were cut with a hole saw and is slipped over the male die. The sheet metal is 22 g steel. The dies can do to about 1/8" thick.


Sandwich the sheetmetal and make sure it's level on the male die. It can get cocked and you get a slighly oblong flange.


Give it a good squeeze. This is a 10 ton bench press. Also be sure the dies are clean and oiled and the sheetmetal is clean. I got a few slivers of filings in one and it embossed the flange with the trash.



Nice flange!


Finished 1/2 panel


The 1/2 panels were welded together at the flanges, then where tacked to the brace and then fully welded in. This made it very stiff




Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #193, 01-18-2009 10:15 AM
      Lots of fine work here. While you apparently have the Ecotec braced and mounted well; I believe that its possible to get this engine installed without losing the trunk.
Roger Thalin of Gainesville Fl did one of the first Ecotec swaps and I believe his trunk is intact. IMO the Ecotec is a great swap choice. Its modern, lightweight, and has tons of upgrade potential. Don Nase Jr. of NJ built an Ecotec engine that powers his pro extreme dragster to consistent mid 6 second 1/4 mile times at 215 MPH.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #194, 01-18-2009 10:34 AM
      The trunk issue comes down to what exhaust you use. The OEM cast iron for the cobalt aimed right at the bottom of the trunk. Those tsudo headers actually touched the upper trunk wall at the brace. Roger Thelin did it the best way and made a header to clear everything and tied back in to the original muffler system. I have wondered if the stock solstice exhuast manifold would work with out cutting the bottom of the trunk off.

I do like the ecotec, It will be around for a long time and it's the base engine in a lot of cars.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #195, 01-18-2009 04:38 PM
      i ran with the stock solstice manifold and you could probably save the trunk with it .but it needs a tight bend to clear the axle .the problem with all rear facing manifolds is where to put the cat if you want to keep the trunk .i used the stock cavalier manifold when i first ran the car and put the cat where the stock muffler was and put the muffler where the cat was and ran a simple side outlet in front of the rear drivers side tire . this worked well but did not look like much .much easier to lose the bottom of the trunk .

this is my latest setup using a turbo bolted to the stock cavalier manifold and solstice cat with a camaro style muffler and dual exhaust .love this build thread .i think this cars performance is going to amaze more than a few people .


Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #196, 01-30-2009 01:25 PM
      Could I get the turbo LNF engine and save the trunk? Either from the Solstice/Sky, or from the Cobalt SS/ HHR SS? I guess Thelin's kit wouldn't work with a turbo engine, since the exhaust bolts to the turbo, but would the rest fit?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #197, 01-30-2009 01:59 PM
      I'm not sure of the fit with the turbo. I have one here from a GXP, I would have to measure and see. But I know it hangs out there a good bit. The big differance between the 2.0 L motors and the rest is the oil pan. Thelin uses the two bolts on the bottom of the pan of the normally asperated versions. The 2.0L supercharged version have a smooth bottom pan that holds an extra quart of oil, and does not have any bolts coming out of the bottom. So they mount differantly on the belt side of the motor. Also the transmissions are way differant so none of those brackets fit either.


It may be easer and cheaper to get the engine/tranny combo that works with Thelins kit and go with one of the numerous turbo kits for that engine. I know they run about 1/2 to 1/3 of what the LSJ combos go for.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #198, 01-30-2009 02:04 PM
      you (austrian import ) posted some pictures of the turbo motors in another thread and these show that the solstice / sky turbos should be avoided unless picked up cheap .the power steering pump is in the way of the axles and so is the stock downpipe and cat .most people wont need the pump but if you could use the stock downpipe and cat it would save some coin .there was not a picture of the turbo side of the cobalt / HHR motor so i dont know if you could save the trunk or not with that setup .but with all the room in the engine bay it wouldnt be that hard to save the trunk .there are lots of ways to run the exhaust , i have allready done it 3 different ways myself .

Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #199, 01-31-2009 12:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

It may be easer and cheaper to get the engine/tranny combo that works with Thelins kit and go with one of the numerous turbo kits for that engine. I know they run about 1/2 to 1/3 of what the LSJ combos go for.



Any chance Thelin would offer these mounts for the 2.0l in the future?

I wish I could do that, but I live in Cali and Smog laws don't allow us to modify the engine in any way. Especially aftermarket turbo/superchargers. Heck, we can't even put an intake on if it's not C.A.R.B. approved. (and even if it is, it's probably not approved for engine swaps - bureaucracy. )

 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

you (austrian import ) posted some pictures of the turbo motors in another thread and these show that the solstice / sky turbos should be avoided unless picked up cheap .the power steering pump is in the way of the axles and so is the stock downpipe and cat .most people wont need the pump but if you could use the stock downpipe and cat it would save some coin .there was not a picture of the turbo side of the cobalt / HHR motor so i dont know if you could save the trunk or not with that setup .but with all the room in the engine bay it wouldnt be that hard to save the trunk .there are lots of ways to run the exhaust , i have allready done it 3 different ways myself .


Yea, I couldn't find any pictures of the other side of the engine. I much rather use a Cobalt / HHR motor, but if they're harder to find I was hoping I could just use a Solstice / Sky motor and modify it to look like a Cobalt / HHR motor. I understand the motors are identical. (unless the devil lives in the details, that I can't see in pictures) I would just remove the PS pump and use the pulley system from the Cobalt / HHR. (no clue if I could get away with that at C.A.R.B. - I'm guessing yes, because a lot of power steering delete's get approved.)

These engines are getting much cheaper on eBay now, they're slowly getting into the territory of being an affordable (for me) swap. (I'm sure in a few more years I could find a rollover / rear ended car that I could just take everything headlight harness to taillight harness off and have most of the parts for the swap)


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #200, 01-31-2009 03:22 PM
      my plan for my next ecotec swap is to buy a used 2005 cavalier that has the works on it .these cars were available with ABS , traction cotrol and lots of other goodies that would be great in a fiero .right now i can buy one for about 8000 up here but prices are dropping fast .i will stick with the 2.2 and turbo it like my present setup .i know the 2.2's are HP limited but i dont know what i would do with another 60 HP anyway .i can shred the tires anytime i want to now with the setup i have .

Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #201, 02-16-2009 07:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

There are some trade offs. With the MSD unit it will be techically not be emissions compliant, although it may pass the treadmill test using the 1988 standards for the car.

The MSD unit is a bank to bank batchfire fire, speed density type ecu. So I'll loose a tiny bit of low speed drive manors and a little MPG and it may be a little persnickety untill it warms up.
Here is a link that shows some more information on the ecu.
http://www.umiracing.com/ga...y/Images/Catalog.pdf

The goal of the car is to be a street legal track car that I can beat the snot out of with out the worries of breaking drive line parts. So I can certainly live with all that.



The ECM , Harness and Software that you reference cost $1900. By comparison if you purchased a ready made harness, used the factory PCM, and HP Tuners VCM tuning suite software you'd be in the neighborhood of $1300. If you wired yourself then deduct about $650.00. So a DIY wiring job should cost about $650 with the software. If you sent the PCM out for programming then you could rewire for $100 and probably have its programmed for another $100. The GM PCM appears to be the better and more cost effective alternative but the programming issues might prove challenging.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #202, 02-16-2009 08:30 PM
      Usually when you buy a complete drop out it includes the harness and ECU. I did not find out untill later there is a stand alone ECU for the LSJ from GM. racing. P#12610648 for the Ariel Atom. It's already setup for the stage 3 tune. I'm think it may use the electric throttle too.

The best option would be to rip the tune from #12610648 and put it in your ECU that came with the motor. It would be virtually free for the right person.

I have one here but I have not had a chance to play with it yet.



Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #203, 02-16-2009 11:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

Usually when you buy a complete drop out it includes the harness and ECU. I did not find out untill later there is a stand alone ECU for the LSJ from GM. racing. P#12610648 for the Ariel Atom. It's already setup for the stage 3 tune. I'm think it may use the electric throttle too.

The best option would be to rip the tune from #12610648 and put it in your ECU that came with the motor. It would be virtually free for the right person.

I have one here but I have not had a chance to play with it yet.




Keep the post alive. This is getting interesting. I want to do an Ecotec for my next swap. Been hessitant to do so until now but with the right engine management, one of the main obstacles wil be removed. I don't know if you are aware of it but Ecotecs have found their way into dune buggies, a 6 second turbo dragster (Don Nase Jr) and other sport compact classes. These applications must use stand alone PCM.s without all of the interface garbage. Some may use aftermarket engine management while others may use the GM PCM.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #204, 02-18-2009 09:06 AM
      Don't forget boats!, very popular in power boat racing too. I think you will find the motor has invaded the 2.0-2.5 liter class of just about every form of racing. This is no way as huge as the popularity of the V8's but with diligent searching you can find the trickle down of speed parts for the ecotec.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #205, 03-07-2009 10:55 AM
      I have been working on the IMSA body of the ecotec car for a while in preparation for a speical Norm's front clip due in hopefully this month. See the body work in a seperate post.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/098086.html

I needed to get the rear clip in shape to finish the exhaust system.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/098086.html


I had made the exhaust system earlier with the cast iron manifold and the regular rear clip. I liked they way the two supertrapps look so I'm going to try to re-use as much as I can.


I'm thinking I may extend the lower pan as close as I can to the cat.


I just need to fill in the bits between the top half of the header and the cat.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #206, 03-15-2009 09:55 AM
      It's been cold and rainy for the last few days here in Houston and I've been stuck inside. I can only image what you northerners must put up with.

I've started back in the exhuast preparing the bits that I can off the car.


I cut off the tsudo flange and installed two V-band clamps on the first set of collectors.



The V-bands are real nice units. They will allow me to drop the exhuast system with out unbolting the header to work on the engine. Also I can make a race only second section and swap it out easy.


I got a set of used Burns merge collectors that I modified with a expansion cone to bring it up to 3" diameter of the rest of the system.

I wish I could weld as smooth a bead as the guys at Burns.



el_roy1985 MSG #207, 03-30-2009 06:56 PM
      Can't wait to see some more progress on this. I'm going to have an LSJ swap of my own to do soon. If the snow ever goes away that is.

Blownbird355 (blownbird355@zoominternet.net) MSG #208, 04-01-2009 10:26 AM
      Has anyone done the dual scroll turbo ectec swap?

el_roy1985 MSG #209, 04-01-2009 08:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blownbird355:

Has anyone done the dual scroll turbo ectec swap?


I made an offer on one but the guy only budged by 150. So I got an LSJ at half the price and I'll just turbo it later on. If anyone is interested, there is a LNF on ebay right now for just over 4000. I would LOVE to see someone put that in their Fiero. I would, but I'm not rich enough.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #210, 04-01-2009 09:23 PM
      I had to spend a few weekends cleaning out the garage to make room for the ecotec fiero. The HOA has written me up a few times about "inoperatable vehicle" in view. So rather then face the frickin lawyers I made nice and moved it inside.

I have installed a winch on the floor in the back of the garage so I can roll it in and out to work on it. I really need a bigger place to work.

I've been working on the body on and off and made a little progress smoothing out the fiberglass.


After I get the car running and sorted, I have a GXP turbo that will replace the super charger. The LSJ is limited by belt slipage and excessive wear. Also the heat generated by the supercharger becomes excessive over 20 psi. But that's a little down the line.

I have been reading good things about the mefi-5 ECU's, you can get total control of the electric bits.




wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #211, 04-01-2009 11:33 PM
      does the LSJ have the piston oil squirters ? i have been watching cobalt ss prices and they have been dropping lately .i want to do an automatic car sometime but this time i going to buy the whole donor car .

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #212, 04-02-2009 12:09 AM
      Yes, the LSJ has squirters, better rods and crank. Also it has a better cylinder head too. GM does recomend going to forged pistons when going over 300 hp, the stock rotating assembly is good to about 500hp before needing better rods.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #213, 04-10-2009 12:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

After I get the car running and sorted, I have a GXP turbo that will replace the super charger. The LSJ is limited by belt slipage and excessive wear. Also the heat generated by the supercharger becomes excessive over 20 psi. But that's a little down the line.



So does that mean you'll essentially have an LNF then? Aren't these engines very similar? How much from the GXP are you switching over?

Would it be easier to get the engine running first, so the car can move in and out of the shop on it's own power? (aka. Pontiac assembly plant. )



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #214, 04-10-2009 08:34 AM
      The LNF's have the same bottom end, but have variable cam timing heads on top. I got a good deal on a new turbo/manifold unit on ebay awhile back, so it's just waiting in the wings.

If a nice LNF drop out comes along at the right time I might modifiy another cradle and swap it out.



unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #215, 04-10-2009 05:13 PM
      ccfiero350 ---- did you use a viton O-ring, copper or something in between the V-band clamp flanges? I have sets of V-band clamps for my exhaust when I get around to making them. I believe there is supposed to be a gasket between them and wanted to know what you used and where to get them..



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #216, 04-10-2009 06:04 PM
      V-band clamps come in several styles, some need gaskets to seal, metal or synthetic, some do not . A good design for exhuast would be the kind with out gaskets. The good ones to get have sexes. There is a little step on the ID so the hot gases have to make a few right angle turns before escaping. The flat ones are more prone to leaking.

Do not use the ones with o-rings or plastic sealers for exhaust., they will just burn up. They are for liquids and cool gases. The ones with copper crush washers are typicaly used for hi-vacuum applications.



unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #217, 04-10-2009 06:27 PM
      Oh.. okay... I do have the ID stepped-in ones... So I don't need gaskets then? If I were to get gaskets I want to look for the copper ones or should I stay away from all?

[This message has been edited by unboundmo (edited 04-10-2009).]

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #218, 04-10-2009 06:43 PM
      If you have a little step lip on the ID with a mating step relief on the other piece ID, you got the best one for exhaust. No gasket is needed.

For Exhaust stuff you do not want any gaskets, In my case I would just loose them anyway.

If you are doing intake stuff, you will need the extra sealing. The copper ones are the best but you can only use them once, so viton works better here in the engine compartment.



unboundmo (unboundmo@aol.com) MSG #219, 04-10-2009 06:44 PM
      sweet.. thanks for the info.

Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #220, 04-17-2009 04:58 PM
      Does anybody have the link for Roger Thelin and his Ecotec stuff?


edit: nvm. found his website: http://www.noidearecords.co...gineadapter_kit.html

unfortunately it's a bit light on information and doesn't have an email for further contact either.

[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 04-17-2009).]

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #221, 04-17-2009 09:32 PM
      I Think his phone number is some were on page 1



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #222, 04-21-2009 12:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

I Think his phone number is some were on page 1



yea, I found it.

He seems a great guy who's very knowledgeable.

I'm still a bit confused if his kit will work for an LSJ and/or an LNF. Does his shift kit work? Is it needed? C350, could you clarify please?

As straightforward as the Ecotecs look, I'm surprised they're not more popular swaps. Maybe his website should be advertised better.

Sometimes I wonder if a similar kit to Roger Thelin's would work with Honda and/or Mazda engines. The latter two are common as dirt and well documented. (some even have low end torque )


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #223, 04-21-2009 06:32 PM
      On page one it pretty much details out Roger's kit. It is made for the readily available standard ecotec. The LSJ or LNF are the premium crop of the ecotecs. Although the engines share the same blocks there are some key differances. The big one that Roger capitalises on is the oil pan. He uses the two big bolts coming out of the bottom to mount with. The LSJ and LNF have smooth bottoms, no bolts, and hold and extra quart of oil.

The other big differance is that LSJ and LNF are bolted to the big honker F35 transmission which has a differant mount bolt patern and a two shaft shift/selector rather then a single shaft on the F23.

I think you will be seeing more of these in the future but it will not be as popular as the V8's are.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #224, 04-21-2009 08:38 PM
      Do you think Roger could make a kit that works for the F-35 then? I really like the idea of having a Torsen type LSD.
Couldn't I just switch the oil pan to the regular one, or some sort of Accusump/dry sump system? (Do they make one yet?)


Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #225, 04-21-2009 08:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:
On page one it pretty much details out Roger's kit.


Oh, I didn't know you modified Roger's kit. I thought you made yours from scratch. So these pictures are of Roger's kit, not yours then?


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #226, 04-22-2009 09:28 AM
      When I started this project, Roger was finishing his prototypes and so I bought one of his kits to see what could be used for both versions. The front cross bar but not the mounts he designed could work for both motors. So I kept the 2x3 tube and fabbed everything else to fit the LSJ.

You could change oil pans and use Roger's front engine mount setup with the LSJ, but you would still have to fab the transmision mounts and shifter asembly.

Roger's kits are very well thought out and is probably the fastest, easiest way to get an ecotec motor and transmision into a fiero, just not a LSJ ecotec with a F35 tranny.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #227, 04-22-2009 02:05 PM
      Oh.
Do you think he'll offer an LSJ/LNF (would it be the same kit?) kit if there was enough demand for it? Especially with the F-35 tranny. (or F-40 in case Saab engines are common Stateside)



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #228, 04-22-2009 03:05 PM
      You will have to ask Roger Thelin about that.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #229, 04-22-2009 04:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

You will have to ask Roger Thelin about that.



Will do.

I re-read my post. I guess I misunderstood earlier. I thought you meant that you and Thelin had a prototyping agreement of some sort. (shared R&D, or something like that.)
The adapters you made are probably 1-off, right? Or do you have templates to make more of them?


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #230, 04-22-2009 11:05 PM
      I shared with Roger about the differances between the two setups, plus he's probably seen everything I published here as everybody else has.

I'm a big fan of paper templates (so much cheaper then steel and you can cut it with scissors). The only thing I did not use templates and I wish I did was the shift linkages. I did it 3 or 4 times and ending up frankinstiening the parts together.

Once you see how it was done it's pretty easy to duplicate the results.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #231, 05-11-2009 09:51 PM
      I've been bogged down and have not spent much time with the mechanicals of the car as of late. I did finally finish smoothing out the bumper and spraying some primer on it. I have to say I'm better at a lot of other things then body work.


I need to get the fender cut outs done so I could position the tips of the exhaust. Two 4" supertraps from the previous exhaust system.


The baffles will add about an inch to the length of the tips.


The outside tube gets hung by a HD exhaust hanger welded to the frame horn. The hanger has a s-bend applied to it so I can muscle it around to the right possition after everthing has a few spot welds to hold it together.


I made a standoff from the frame to bolt the 1st stainless bracket on in the lower left corner. The second one will be on the inlet side of the cat.

The next hard part is to take the two 2" pipes from the top part of the header, merge them , go under the frame and go into the 3" inlet of the cat. I ran out of the right lenth of 2" tube ans will have to start again this weekend.


As you can see by this view, it has to dip down to go under the frame. It should be a real pita to get it all hooked up.


I did swap out the rear deck lid for an 84 unit. (Thanks sparx22!) for the additional cooling it can provide. I cut out the under side of the deck lid to get maximum exposure through the grill. Since this is going to be a street legal track car, it's not going to be in a lot of weather. (hopefully)



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #232, 05-17-2009 12:09 AM
      I had dog leg the secondarys over to make some more room for the final merge collector.


This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.
I started with the shortest leg first. I wished I had a donut on hand to get some short radius bends and make life easier. All I had were 3 inchers.


I tried a new trick, aluminum tape to mock up the section, then tack weld them, worked great!


There is about a inch of clearance from the tubes to the axle.



1 3/4 primarys, 2" secondarys, merged to 2 1/2" expansion cone then into 3" tubing for the rest of exhuast.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.


I still have to make the sharp turn around and connect the header to the cat.




ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #233, 05-23-2009 09:49 PM
      I had to come to some compromises as I got down to the last turn. I had to frankenstien a super sharp bend right after the expansion cone.


I taped up the ends and ran a purge gas inside the tubes to avoid crusty boogers along the inside of the welds.


Here it is all welded up.


As you can see it not much more then a long tube header with a cat and muffler tips.


I'm thinking with the 3" diameter pipe it should have a deeper tone for a 4 banger, and the 4:2:1 header will give it a differant pulsation sound then the more common 4:1 header. Can't wait to hear it run.



Anomaly MSG #234, 06-05-2009 08:58 PM
      wow, never thought id see the lsj in a fiero.

Having spent the last few years working heavily with this engine (cobalt ss/sc) I can tell you that its got some really wicked instant torque, but be prepared for heatsoak issues above 14psi.
there is a hard ceiling at about 280-290hp. unfortunately there are very few reliable, daily driven 300+hp LSJs floating around.
and the few that are, have spent over 5k to get it.

good luck getting it all finished. and kudos on tackling such a unique swap!


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #235, 06-06-2009 09:23 AM
      I'm anticipating the heat problems with the stage 3 mods to the motor. One of the good things about the LSJ in the fiero is that I will not have the radiators dumping their heat load right back on the blower housing and with the 84 grill you get lot's of ventilation to help out keeping that puppy cool. When Norm delivers my front end, I have some big aluminum radiators to help with the additional heat.



DarkRanger4200 (rniertit@gmail.com) MSG #236, 06-06-2009 11:17 AM
      that's one really sweet set very impressive work on the exhaust like the 4-2-1 keep up keep up the good work.

blkpearl (bodylinesfitness@cox.net) MSG #237, 06-06-2009 11:17 PM
      Yeah you have done some really nice work on the car. I look forward to hearing this thing when you get it done.

Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #238, 10-22-2009 01:36 AM
      *bump* Any news?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #239, 10-22-2009 03:00 PM
      I've been working on the bodywork in anticipation of the frigging Norm's front clip that I have been waiting on for months.

I put it on another thread. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/098086.html

Once I get the duct work glassed in, I can get back to metal work.



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #240, 10-27-2009 05:49 PM
      Hey buddy,


I also have the tsudo header on my swap, would you be interested in making me one of the custom pieces you have? Im really uneasy taking it to an exhaust shop to do it, people ask to many questions lol.

Does it fit under the stock trunk or would you guess it would?


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #241, 10-27-2009 07:19 PM
      It does fit under the deck lid, but the trunk wall interferes, look on page three, my engine is set so the pan bottom is flat, which rotates the block forward, if yours if different, there will be even less space for the tsudo headers at the top bend. If you want to save your trunk wall at all, and use the tsudo headers, you need to rotate the block a little more forward so the top part of the headers clear the trunk wall and leave about 1/4" min. of clearance. (this will still burn regular paint after a while).

An alternative to redoing your mounts, cut out the portion that the headers touch the trunk wall and make a sheet metal pan to replace it so the headers have room. Heads up, the engine will rotate back under acceleration so give it room to move. I don't know how complaint your engine mounts are, but you can find out by putting some clay to deform under acceleration some were up top and your can measure it afterward.

PM sent.



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #242, 10-27-2009 09:06 PM
      I think you read it wrong,

I have the tsudo on mine, But I need to upgrade the portion past the 4, basically the 2-1 part needs to be redesigned, Currently it dumps into a "T" that goes to bothe ends of the car with 2 2.25 glasspacks, I dont think its a bad system but it could use some major improvements!

I got your PM too


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #243, 10-27-2009 11:38 PM
      If it fits up top, cool, I would really like to see some images of what the 2 into 1 section and T-fitting looks like.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #244, 10-28-2009 12:45 AM
      Fosgatecavy98, could you post some pics, or a link to where they are?

I have a hard time picturing how you mounted the engine. Also congrats on still keeping the trunk intact. How close is the top part of the headers to the trunk wall?

ccfiero350, have you made any progress on the engine? Did you fire it up yet? I'm dying to hear what it sounds like.
Also, what rotation is the engine stock? How much flexibility is one allowed in engine tilt, before it makes any problems with oiling, etc.?


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #245, 10-28-2009 08:18 AM
      I'm still doing bodywork at the moment. I have a bunch of upgrades for the motor to put in.

I looked back into Fosgatecavy98 posts on his ecotec swap and the motor looks to be more straight up and down then mine. I think it's also mated to a isuzu tranny with a Bates adapter, which may also put it a different position within the engine bay then my F35.

The oil pickup is part of the pan, and is on the exhaust side. As long as it stays covered up with oil you can tilt the motor any were you like. The dip stick will read true only when it's at the oem tilt angle, so you may need to re-mark it after you have the right amount of oil in it.

IMHO try for the OEM tilt if you can, but don't worry about it can't be. At hi rpm, most of the oil is up in the engine, and as a dense fog in the crank case, there still over an inch of oil at the bottom of the pan to feed the pump.



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #246, 10-28-2009 05:01 PM
      What do you want pictures of mine? Its not an ideal setup at all lol and was done because the local police didnt like the flames igniting the oil at intersections, nor the noise

Yes mine has zero tilt on it, I am going to redo the mounts this winter, I have the 2.4L manifold on it and it has a bad clearance issue with the TB and firewall, the Le5 manifold sits higher than the 2.2 and caused that issue.

The oiling isnt really an issue, at anything higher than 3k or so the ecotec makes over 100psi of oil pressure (peaks around 125psi) its a very tight motor


Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #247, 11-19-2009 11:16 PM
      more pictures?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #248, 11-20-2009 03:40 PM
      Still waiting on fricking Norm's front clip, have been working on my brewery stuff in the mean time.



suPrcarNthusiast (yatckosket@yahoo.com) MSG #249, 11-26-2009 04:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

Usually when you buy a complete drop out it includes the harness and ECU. I did not find out untill later there is a stand alone ECU for the LSJ from GM. racing. P#12610648 for the Ariel Atom. It's already setup for the stage 3 tune. I'm think it may use the electric throttle too.

The best option would be to rip the tune from #12610648 and put it in your ECU that came with the motor. It would be virtually free for the right person.

I have one here but I have not had a chance to play with it yet.


Has anyone doing an LSJ Supercharged Ecotec swap actually utilized the Ariel Atom Stage III ECM #12610648 mentioned above?? What mods are required to get the Ecotec from the stock 205HP up to the Ariel Atom 300HP specs, I know about the new injectors (Stage I) and pulley/hub upgrade (Stage II) but that only brings the engine up to 245HP. Would HP cams, free-flowing exhaust and a ported head be next on the parts list?

Seems as though the Ecotec GMPP died with "old GM"; what else is needed to make this ECM work before GMPP parts become extinct? What about the harness, just the OE engine harness or does it require a custom harness? What about the drive-by-wire throttle body?

Lots of questions but GM isn't available for comment!



Goldenfoot (rt_jb_whittington07@q.com) MSG #250, 11-28-2009 11:06 PM
      I believe the Atoms Ecotec had different cams. Another thing is that GM rated their supercharged ecotecs HP at the wheels to help lower insurance costs to buyers. I am assuming the Atoms is Crank HP. So a stock cobaltSS/Ionredline rated at 205 HP is just at the wheels. Crank would be closer to 230~. A stage 2 close to 270~. So for an Atom, smaller pully, different cams, better charge cooling and a tune to match would probably bring it into the 300HP range. Look on www.cobaltss.net They have some crazy mods to get some high #s out of their cars!

InTheLead MSG #251, 11-29-2009 01:08 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

Still waiting on fricking Norm's front clip, have been working on my brewery stuff in the mean time.



Good luck with that.. sounds like he's a real dink.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #252, 11-29-2009 09:08 PM
      Back from Va Ca, hope every body had a good Thanksgiving.

I've been seeing this guy on ebay with some promising aspects.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBay...AX:IT#ht_1898wt_1162

I have not done anything with the Ariel ECU, but would like to proceed with it further. I don't think they messed with the internals of the motor on the Atom, but I know the exhaust was a huge limiting factor on the Cobalt SS at the time. I can't confirm, have not seen one up close long enough to find out, but I think they made a new header for it.

As to my on going troubles with Norm's fiberglass, I'll call him again tomorrow.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #253, 12-01-2009 10:50 PM
      Did you get it running yet?

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #254, 12-02-2009 05:55 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Austrian Import:

Fosgatecavy98, could you post some pics, or a link to where they are?

I have a hard time picturing how you mounted the engine. Also congrats on still keeping the trunk intact. How close is the top part of the headers to the trunk wall?

ccfiero350, have you made any progress on the engine? Did you fire it up yet? I'm dying to hear what it sounds like.
Also, what rotation is the engine stock? How much flexibility is one allowed in engine tilt, before it makes any problems with oiling, etc.?




Before I had my exhaust finished up.

I did not get the fiero tips/bends on it and have a bigger sweeping bends, its not right still, which is why I want his exhaust


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #255, 12-02-2009 11:51 PM
      I have not done anything mechanical on the car in the last few months other then getting the rear clip in shape and doing fiberglass work on the duct works. I'll post those pictures on the other thread soon.

Talked to Norm recently, he should be crating up the front clip and getting it ready to ship. Will update as it progresses.

I'm doing another Drivers Ed, at TWS this weekend, it looks like it's going to cold, high of 50 degrees on Sat. Looking forword to some track time though.

I like doing exhaust work, it's a lot like jig saw sculpture. I don't think I'll do a stainless system again soon, it cost about 4 times as much as mild steel.



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #256, 12-03-2009 12:13 PM
      So you wanna do a new exhuast setup for mine yet?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #257, 01-25-2010 12:14 AM
      I've been working on the body parts for a bit. See the other thread. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/098086.html

I got some parts in and started back on the 88 front suspension mods. One of the things I wanted to achieve was more camber gain, bigger brakes, less unsprung weight, and ease of adjusting alignments for track conditions.

I bought a set of Held's tubular lower A-arms for coil overs a couple of years ago and is fundamentally based of off these. The uppers are available from Held but I was looking for more flexibility. The center to center bolt spacings for the 88 upper A-arm shaft is 4 1/2". Same as the 71-73 Pinto. Mustang II comes in at 5". Which is pretty common among roundy round circles. I can find some cool adjustable upper A-arms cheap in stock car parts bins starting at 5" CTC

So first off I wanted to cut off as much unused metal from the coil pocket of the 88 front cross member. Then I need to widen the hole pattern to 5".


I made some filler pieces to go in the slots.


Then I MIG welded them place. I wanted to TIG them but I was out of Argon. MIG does a great job but is not as precise as I can do with TIG.


Then I ground the weld down flat and drilled 1/2" holes for the new 5" cross member. I this point caster is just a guess, so the holes are not slotted, but they are in the center of the perch. I will not find out until it's all together how much I'll need to slot the holes.


These particular cross shafts have bronze bushings, very little lash, and no compliance. The lower A-arm bushings at this point are poly, I'm looking to see If I can find a less compliant solution for those without cutting off the end and welding on something new..


The Upper Ball Joint is for a 68-89 Chrysler that weighs nearly almost twice as much as the fiero. So it just about twice as big.


The aluminum knuckle that I'm using is metric and has a different taper as the Chrysler ball joint, so I'm reaming the top ball joint hole to the correct taper and size for the new unit.


The new knuckle in place shows I need the 10 deg. upper ball joint plate. At the normal ride height, I don't have enough travel in the upper joint before it binds when I bottom the suspension.


I can adjust the fore and aft position of the top joint by adjusting the sleeves, but since this does not adjust the plain of the arc, as the suspension travels, how does this effect camber? I need to read up on anti-dive geometry.


I laid the shock in (at max extension) with the lower arm at approximate ride height.


The shock mount has just one hole at the moment, there will be three at 1" intervals for ride height and spring rate changes.


The lower ball joint needs to be replaced to match the taper and size of the metric knuckle. I need to make a new sleeve to match the the press fit lower ball joint.


I need get the correct lower ball joint in place before I get the tie rods and sway bar fitted.

Thanks for everybody's comments.



doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #258, 01-25-2010 11:41 AM
      Very cool, very impressive, one of a kind!

That suspension is really creative, I love it!



coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #259, 01-26-2010 03:20 PM
      +1 very impressive setup, and very adjustable........this build is definitely one of a kind.

Jer


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #260, 02-22-2010 11:59 PM
     

The upper ball joint plate was replaced with a 10 degree unit to give plenty of room for travel.

Unfortunately the upper a-arms that use this ball joint are symmetric, ours are offset so I had to go to a gm metric ball joint plate that has a left and right hand version. They also have a 20 degree tilt to them. They are the 4 bolt kind, I'll post an image next time around. On the plus side I do not have to re-taper the upper ball joint hole in the knuckle.


The new brakes are a little bit bigger in diameter.


But thicker, meaning more thermal mass to heat up.


They have a pretty thin hat profile, and the bolt pattern changes to 5 x 110mm. There is plenty of room on the hub to re-drill the bolt pattern to 5 x 115mm.


The shock mounts brackets are J shaped to hook under the cross member.


I used the old ball joint as a guide to cut out a hole with the plasma cutter for the new bigger lower ball joint mount ring.


When I got these arms a few years ago I was dismayed how thin the mount rings were. If the ball joint did not have a retaining clip to hold it in place, I could not see how it could last. The new rings are about a little over a 1/4" thick across the section. The new lower ball joint is on the right.


The new rings are tacked in.


Then TIG welded around the bottom side. The top side is MIG welded for good fill. I think I may fill up this cup area later with epoxy to keep water from accumulating.


The reworked lower a-arms after paint and bushings. I want to thank Eric at HT Motorsports for the lower Nylon bushings, they are 84-87 units for rally cars,I trimmed them to fit the Held tube arms. I was looking for a stiffer bushing to match the uppers.



ricreatr MSG #261, 06-16-2010 08:42 AM
      this is some great work!

what is that knuckle from?????
the amount of drop and the low position of the tie rod mount look very promising.

thanks for the great posting


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #262, 06-16-2010 09:17 AM
      The knuckle is from a Solstice, seems appropriate using orphan car parts on an orphan car.



IVANNATINKLE (seanmiller063@gmail.com) MSG #263, 06-16-2010 09:17 AM
      this is all looking GREAT!

Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #264, 06-23-2010 10:34 PM
      Are you working any on the engine, or is that on hold for a while?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #265, 06-24-2010 10:38 AM
      I'm still working on the front end on and off. I relocated the bottom of the shock on the arm since I last posted. Also I have changed the the bolt pattern from the Solstice 5x110 to a Saturn Vue 5x114 hub. I'm just about ready to do the brake adapter for a Wilwood caliper.

I just got a new (to me) manual mill to play with and have been getting it ready to use.



matthud MSG #266, 07-11-2010 04:32 PM
      You have a PM

mrbeef (jje46m3@yahoo.com) MSG #267, 08-01-2010 11:57 AM
      If you want to up the HP on the LSJ i have a 2006 cobalt SS/SC and i did 60lbs inj 2.85 pulley header DP exhaust and a HP tuners tune and my car should be seeing around 260 WHP which is about 300 crank.. i can pull pretty much any thing on the road with that set up just make sure you have a good H/E for the inter cooling system.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #268, 08-01-2010 05:04 PM
      I have a bunch of go fast goodies to put on the motor when I pull it again. Full Stage 3 upgrade, light weight flywheel, LS throttle body, remote oil filter and internal balancer delete kit.

As soon as I get the front end put back together, I'll finish the rear half of the car.



matthud MSG #269, 08-02-2010 06:32 PM
      What did you use/do for your throttle cable?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #270, 08-02-2010 07:22 PM
      I plan on using the stock duke cable when I get to it. Have not looked into yet. Still messing with the front end.



paradigm MSG #271, 08-22-2010 03:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

Also I have changed the the bolt pattern from the Solstice 5x110 to a Saturn Vue 5x114 hub. I'm just about ready to do the brake adapter for a Wilwood caliper.




Could you clarify please? Did you modify the Solstice hub or will the triangular flange of the Saturn Vue 5x114 hub bolt to the Solstice knuckle? I'm trying to find a 33 spline hub that fits the Cobalt SS axles with the correct triangular flange to bolt to the Solstice knuckle. (And I think the Vue has a 33 spline hub, no?) Or can these GM hub parts be mixed and matched to achieve this? Thanks for all the great info so far.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #272, 08-23-2010 01:28 AM
      Its a little bit different then that.

The vue hubs need just a wee bit bigger pilot hole in the solstice knuckles and the bolt circle is about 3 mm larger so you need to slot the holes just a little. The out board spline is much bigger on the vue hubs but the vue axles use the same inboard spline as the SS axles and plug right into the F35 tranny and are about 1/2" longer then the SS axles.

The vue hubs are gen II version but on inspection the bearing retainers do not appear to be integral to the inner spline piece and I think I will put a big bolt through it to keep it all together for safety sakes.

The vue hubs and brakes discs on the solstice knuckle does create some interference issues that need to be worked out.

I'll will be working these out pretty soon.



paradigm MSG #273, 08-25-2010 06:38 PM
      I thought this sounded like a good solution so I looked into it more and have a few more questions.

1) As far as I can tell the Vue hubs are actually 115mm and not the more common 114.3mm. Not that it necessarily matters but its enough of a difference for wheel selection. This is based on online references as I don't have one to measure, correct me if you've confirmed otherwise.

2) I'm also confused about the axle spline count and OD of the various axles. According to the first page of this thread, the Cobalt SS axles are 27 spline @ 1.15" OD transmission side, and at the hub side they are 33 spline @ ???? OD. What is the hub spline OD on the cobalt axle and/or Fiero axle since they are the same?

But from the EMPI website the Vue axles are either 34 or 29 spline at the transmission depending on which Vue model and not the required 27. Do you have the Vue axle part number and/or year and trim level of Vue that fits the F35? What is the Vue hub spline OD? (Here is where I am getting my axle info as it could be incorrect, unfortunately is doesn't show spline diameters. http://www.showmetheparts.com/empi/# )

3) Last thing. For my application I would just prefer to use the original Solstice hub which I believe is 30 spline, and I think 1.391" OD. (anybody know for certain?) Does anyone know of an axle that will go from the F35 to the Solstice hub? I don't care about axle length as I will adjust the suspension to accommodate it. Or, does anyone know of another hub that will bolt directly to the Solstice knuckle without modification?


Hope I'm not hijacking here, I think this info should help everyone.

[This message has been edited by paradigm (edited 08-25-2010).]

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #274, 08-25-2010 08:39 PM
      Hi Paradigm and welcome to the forum!

Good questions, hopefully I can answer off the top of head without trying to find stuff and pull it out of the shop.

1. Yea, I had that problem too. Some places it's listed as 115 others is 114.5, I think it's a whole number issue an it's actually 114.5mm. That's only .010 of an inch off the bolt circle and it's within the hole clearance so I'm not worried about it.

2. The cobalt SS axles have the same spine as the outside fiero units and can be used right off the shelf. The Vue V6 front drive auto has the same inboard splines as the SS cobalt axles. But the outboard splines are much bigger. To use the Vue hubs and axles on the rear with the F35 tranny on a 88 you need custom knuckles made to fit the bigger Vue bearing hub. I've been working on this on and off for a year. On 84-87s it's a lot easier, you just need to make an adapter for the Vue knucke to mate with fiero struts or make Vue struts fit fiero chassis and get the toe links to fit.

3. The solstice hub bearing is the same front and back, it's a gen III and does not need an axle to keep it together. I am thinking the solstice inside spline is the same as the SS and Vue, but the outside is a little larger then fiero's, smaller then Vue's. This is the part were it's been awhile and don not remember the details unless I drag out the parts and look at them again.

I picked the Vue hub because it was a stout piece and got me into a bolt pattern that I can get cheap wide wheels.

What are you working on?



paradigm MSG #275, 08-25-2010 10:59 PM
      I'm actually working on a custom mid engine tube frame project so I frequent the Fiero forums since much of the drivetrain and general "will this part fit" questions are the same. I have lurked for quite a while, so much of your posts and others like Joseph Upson's research have helped tremendously.

Because its custom and double wishbone all around, is why I am interested in using the Solstice knuckle in the rear (and probably the front too) and mating it to the F35 or possibly the F40. Its also why I'm not constrained on many aspects like axle length. I found the Vue axle that works now, its only on the '02-'03 Vue ( as well as the '05-'06 Equinox and '06 Torrent), EMPI part # is 80-7524, not sure if that's a OEM number as well or not.

I was also interested in the Vue hubs to have a better selection of wheels, but for simplicity for my application I would rather just find an axle that goes from the F35 to the Solstice hub off the shelf and just deal with the less than ideal bolt pattern. If the inboard Solstice splines are indeed the same as the Cobalt SS and Vue that would be killer but I can't find any info on them other than they are the same as the CTS and STS.

What years mark the different generation hubs?


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #276, 08-26-2010 01:43 AM
      Very Cool!

The front and rear solstice knuckle is all most identical except for the brake caliper mount pads. If you going through all the trouble of doing a tube frame it may do you more good to source more common, and still in production pieces like corvette parts to design around IMHO.

I started out going through bearing catalogs to get dimensional information. Unfortunately they don't state what generation they are. You have to contact them to get the particulars on a specific hub.

Being a double wishbone set up, you can be open to make your own knuckle for the rear. The front can be anything that uses the desired bolt pattern hub.

I'll look into the vue/solstice spline details tomorrow and see what I can come up with.



paradigm MSG #277, 08-28-2010 06:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

Very Cool!

The front and rear solstice knuckle is all most identical except for the brake caliper mount pads. If you going through all the trouble of doing a tube frame it may do you more good to source more common, and still in production pieces like corvette parts to design around IMHO.

I started out going through bearing catalogs to get dimensional information. Unfortunately they don't state what generation they are. You have to contact them to get the particulars on a specific hub.

Being a double wishbone set up, you can be open to make your own knuckle for the rear. The front can be anything that uses the desired bolt pattern hub.

I'll look into the vue/solstice spline details tomorrow and see what I can come up with.



I was under the impression the Solstice knuckles were exactly identical, which was part of the allure of using them. If I move on to some other knuckle/spindle there are certainly other good ones out there like the corvette and miata. I have considered making my uprights as well but undoubtedly there will be so many other things on a ground up tube frame project I was trying to keep it in check. Its also nice knowing you have replacement parts where ever you go.

In the past few days I have also discovered the Cobalt SS/TC uses a different axle than the SC version. Its a 30 spline at the hub and the G6 axle might be the right bridge from the F35 to the Solstice hub, still need to get more dimensions on it to know for sure. Any luck with the Vue/Solstice hub spline details?

One more somewhat related question, what is the offset between the F35 input shaft and the axles? Just a quick tape measure would be great. Curious for packaging and f/r weight distribution.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #278, 08-28-2010 08:00 PM
      The solstice knuckles do use identical bearing hubs front and rear but the brake mount ears on the rear knuckle are smaller and closer together.
If this is a track vehicle and you don't need a parking brake I would use the same front unit on both ends, then you only have to stock 1 pad size.



The front one on the right has a vue hub installed.

I have a '06 SS motor/trans and I have not looked past that version. I'll be in the shop tomorrow and see if I can dig up the axles and hubs and make some picts.

On the offset do you mean the centerline to centerline distance between the crank and axle?

As an option, look into the mustang II/pinto knuckle you can get lowered knuckles with big brake options with out making custom parts. I could have gone this route with new parts and spent less in the long run. What your going to find out pretty soon is the geometry of the front end is pretty hairy and the height of the steering pickup will drive you mad.



paradigm MSG #279, 08-28-2010 11:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

On the offset do you mean the centerline to centerline distance between the crank and axle?


Yes exactly. If you were to stand the motor straight up, the horizontal offset between the crank and axle (as well as the vertical offset if there is any).

 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

What your going to find out pretty soon is the geometry of the front end is pretty hairy and the height of the steering pickup will drive you mad.



Are you talking about the Solstice knuckle here? I had read somewhere that the steering arm being so close to the lower ball joint vertically did make it a pain. The more I think about it maybe a custom knuckle is the way to go, or possibly using the Cobalt McPherson knuckle with bolt on unit to locate the upper balljoint. Would make for a nice way to adjust outboard suspension points.

For some reason I'm just really trying to avoid custom axles.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #280, 08-29-2010 12:22 AM
      I'll give it a measure tomorrow.

My problem is mating two different cars suspension pieces that were not designed together. The Fiero rack is is about 1 1/2" higher then the solstice rack. To keep bump steer at bay the arc length of the lower control arm and the steering link should almost be the same and parallel depending on how much camber gain you want.

You doing a tube frame allows you to put the rack in the right place depending on what knuckles you use and be able to dial out the bump steer.

Struts are nice and cheap and light weight, work really well if you get the geometry right. But you can't adjust them like a double wish bone. If your going to look into that route, study up on Porsche front suspensions. They do it extremely well.

Using off the shelf or bone yard parts is traditional! We are hot rodders!



paradigm MSG #281, 08-29-2010 12:07 PM
      Maybe I wasn't too clear, I wasn't thinking of actually using a strut, just the knuckle from a strut design. The knuckle has two holes at the top that allow you to design a bolt on piece that holds the upper ball joint for use with a double wishbone arrangement. There are many ways to use slugs, shims, reversible part designs, etc to easily move the upper ball joint around within the bolt on piece. Depending on the knuckle it may be difficult to get the desired caster, KPI, etc but at least having the ability to change may be better than nothing. Sorry everyone, I think I have hijacked this thread enough.





ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #282, 08-29-2010 12:37 PM
      Ah Yes! I've done a similar design exercise of making bolt on attachment points to Vue knuckles to be used with rear 88 subframe pick up points. It ended up being easer and lighter to fab a whole new knuckle out of steel. If I still had my machine shop I would do it out of a single billet of aluminum.

There is enough meat in that knuckle to machine off the strut tab and drill a taper hole to accept a ball joint directly.

What is the intended purpose of the car?



paradigm MSG #283, 08-29-2010 01:06 PM
      I would say a street legal track car. One with competition design aspects with enough ride height and spring rate to not kill you on public roads. It will undoubtedly see more miles on the street than track.

carbonfiber_kid (keith69@ameritech.net) MSG #284, 09-05-2010 09:22 AM
      It looks like you have come up with a great alternative design for the front suspension.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #285, 09-06-2010 12:15 AM
      I was doing a little work on it today, trying for a clean way to connect the steering arms without screwing the geometry up.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #286, 09-12-2010 05:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by paradigm:

If you were to stand the motor straight up, the horizontal offset between the crank and axle (as well as the vertical offset if there is any).




Well the motor is not straight up and down but this may give you some idea of the crank/axle distance.


The solistice hub on the left has a minor dia of about 1.26 inch. The vue hub in the solstice knuckle on the right has a minor dia of about 1.35 inch.




ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #287, 09-16-2010 10:11 PM
      After a long time of not working on the car, I finally found a solution to the steering linkage problem and got busy. The solstice steering arm on the knuckle is kinda high and the big end of the tapered hole faces down. The fiero rack is in such a position that the bump steer geometry would be just about perfect if the tie rod would fit through the top of the steering arm. The bad thing is you can't re-drill the tapered hole from the other side, not enough metal. I'm using Rickady88GT's vette's power steering kit and a ZL1 rack for quick steering.



With the rack centered and the hubs straight ahead, this is the gap I had to work with. I found some rack adapters at Chassis Engineering that I could fit over the stock tie rods and weld in place.



I had to trim down the tube and the tie rod end to allow a little adjustment room on the rod end.



I can now adjust for bump steer once the car is back down on the ground.



I'll weld them up once I can string the hubs and measure toe. Then paint them.



I'm running 1/2" bolts through what remains of the taper in the steering arm. I teflon tape the threads up and filled in with good ole JB.



Hopefully I can get the bolt back out and the fill is void free.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #288, 09-18-2010 12:41 AM
      I got the Vue hubs on the Solstice knuckles and started looking into what rotors I could use for a brake system. The standard Vue rotors could be used but the offset is wrong and it brought the disc too close to the knuckle.

The Vue hub as a 5x114.3 mm bolt pattern with a 71.1 mm pilot hole, which just so happens to be the exact same dimensions as a 95-04 Ford Mustang. So I looked into whats available that would work,



The 88 fiero rotor on top of the Mustang Cobra rotor.



The Ford rotor is 1.1 inches thick and has a real shallow offset.



Another real cool aspect of the Ford rotor is that its 13" in diameter and I can get them new for around $40 each! (cheap imports)



They fit like a glove on the new knuckle assemblies.



I'll still have to fab the brake caliper bracket back here.



The disc just bearly kisses the lower control arm pinicle but a few minutes with the angle grinder will fix that.

I still have to pick out a caliper, I'm still looking at the Ford Cobra unit or a Wilwood piece.



Erik (hardkandiboi@hotmail.com) MSG #289, 09-18-2010 02:12 AM
      How heavy are the Ford rotors?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #290, 09-18-2010 11:07 AM
      They are about 20 lbs. each.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #291, 09-24-2010 01:04 PM
      One of my favorite things is trying out rims for the first time. They can make or break the look of a car. This is an IMSA wide body car so it needs something to fill up the big fenders, and it had to be cheap.



How about 17x9's for the front! (edit) This is what the power steering is for.



The solstice knuckle with the 13" rotor fits pretty good.



Upper ball joint has plenty of room.



The trailing upper A-arm is close, I'll need to do a range of motion to check for problems.



There's about 1/4 to 3/8" room in there. The front end is almost at it's lowest point of travel.



The lower ball joint has plenty of room. You can see the lower shock mount is about 1/2" lower then the wheel rim. This will need a good looking over.



Max turn in with 255/40 tires will see some big time rubbing if I don't do something to limit steering or shorten the sway bar.



I need to add another 1/2" worth of stop to each side of the rack to keep the 255's off the sway bar ends.



If I go down to a 245/40 tire I can get away with only 1/8" more stop. It would also be a lighter and tighter wheel combo.



I like the nice clean looks of the Cobra R wheels, I need to get some measurements to see which calibers can fit inside with the 13" disc.





I can get these for the same price and they weigh about a pound less, I'm not yet sure if I would like the look on the car.

What do you guys think?




Niterrorz MSG #292, 09-25-2010 02:13 AM
      i likem both but i think the ones your have are cooler

[This message has been edited by Niterrorz (edited 09-25-2010).]

mwhite (mike.white@rogers.com) MSG #293, 09-25-2010 08:17 PM
      What are you going to use to hold the wheel bearing together? A lot of wheel bearing use the Axle to hold them to gether. I went down this path this year and was disappointed with my solutions a lot of wasted time and money. I tried machining some large bolds and washer to simulate the axles, but they just let the bearings have too much play in them. You may want to just cut up a set of axles. My solution was to use the front wheel bearings from a Cadilac CTS 2wd version. The ones I bought were 5 bolt on a 115 pattern. I believe the CTS-V has a 5 on 120 pattern but I don't know if it is 2WD OR 4WD. Maybe in future I will share my build pictures with the community, but I would like to get some track time on it first...
Cheers, Mike


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #294, 09-25-2010 10:00 PM
      The Vue hubs are 2nd gen and still need the outside cv joint spline to provide the preload on the bearing and hold it together. It's a big bearing and the nut needs something like 125 ft/lbs of torque for preload. I plan on cutting off the cup of the outside cv joint and just use the spline side and torque it to specs. to hold it all together.



FieroMiami (sl@mobilityworld.com) MSG #295, 10-01-2010 11:41 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


No, this tranny takes the same axle spline configuration as the F40, they are both originally Saab transmissions and more than likely the F35 has the same offsetting of the final drive carrier that calls for different length output axle stubs at the tranny, in other words you can't fully insert an axle shaft in the right side of the transmission so the jackshaft would be manditory.



Looking for a simpler and cheaper swap I am curios if late 90ies SAAB tubo engines/transmission be an alternative? Is it the same transmission match? The SAABs are easily chip tuned for a very low cost to 300hp/400+Nm and I believe that the ECMs are still stand alone units in those years. I guess there are other alternatives but without and potential axel match, Volvo 850/S70 T5 also produces 300hp with chip only and they look pretty good in their cradles…

Basically I assume most are looking for is
• A standard engine that produce 300 hp without modifying engine
• Lightweight
• Available at low cost
• Stock Stand alone ECM
• Axel / Transmission match

The LSJ is a great option but pricey + expensive engine management

That said, it is always best to replicate a swap that has been made previously



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #296, 10-01-2010 01:23 PM
      I'm sure it could be done, how's your Swedish?



FieroMiami (sl@mobilityworld.com) MSG #297, 10-01-2010 02:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

I'm sure it could be done, how's your Swedish?



Well, anything can be done... but I wonder if the late 90ies SAABs uses GM style gearboxes - I mean you got to get a break in some area :-)

I am Swedish so its pretty good, how is yours? I am from Stockholm... Thelin could be a Swe name by the way

You are doing an awesome build!
Stefan



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #298, 10-01-2010 05:20 PM
      Du kan göra det!

GM did buy SAAB in 2000, I have no clue as to when they started sharing parts. I think GM looked into the Saab parts bin when they were coming up with the idea of making Hi-Po front wheel drives and they did not have a stout enough manual transmission in their own bin.

Most car companies do not make their own transmission so you can find getrags in Ford products too.

IMHO, axles are the last thing to worry about. There is always the safety net of just getting axles made to fit what your using. It's really not that expensive. You can save your time and energy for more important things like making brackets and solving fit issues. i think I've spent more then 40 man hours just looking and cross referencing axle and CV joint catalogs and bought a half dozen used axles figuring it out. In the end I'll probably still have to buy custom axles to get what I want.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #299, 10-10-2010 11:56 AM
      I had been looking for a suitable brake caliber on and off for a few weeks. I really wanted to do a Wilwood or Brembo 4 or even a 6 puck radial mount piece. The cheapest new 6 puck Wilwood would have set me back about $385 per side with pads. 4 pucks would be about $230 per side.

Looking for used calipers on Ebay showed up a bunch of old tech stock car stuff, that would need re-built to use but all these units were HUGE and would not fit my offset.


What I did find was a pair of take offs from a 2010 Mustang GT for $75 that included pads and hardware!


The Ford units are about twice the size of the stock 88 pieces and weigh about the same.


The 2 main benefits from big calipers is,

More clamping force and more friction area


The Mustang calipers from 2005 to present are the same for the base and GT cars, they do have different brackets to fit the small and medium rotors. There is a bigger caliper to fit the 14" GT500 and other upgrade brakes.

I'm using 94-2004 13"Cobra rotors as they have the right amount of offset and the combination fits inside a 17" wheel.


This shot shows the wheel at full lock and plenty of clearance behind the caliper.

I've designed the adapter bracket and will send it off to be machined this week.



One of the good things about the Cobra rotor is that you can get them cheap on ebay, these pair of drilled and zinc coated cost less then a single lowest grade part at Nappa. When it comes time to upgrade to a 2-piece rotor I can do it for under $250 per rotor.




coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #300, 10-12-2010 07:36 AM
      Very nice progress, those calipers look very similar to the Lincoln continental calipers I grabbed from the wrecker a long time ago. I've been tossing around the same problem as you for a while as well, although I got somebody local that has some Brembo 4 pistons that I am going to be looking at, he says they will fit the corvette rotors that I have laying around.

Jer


BabyVet (mybabyvet@yahoo.com) MSG #301, 10-24-2010 11:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:
How about 17x9's for the front! (edit) This is what the power steering is for.


DROOL!!!!


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #302, 10-31-2010 09:08 PM
      I had originally was going to make he caliper adapters out of aluminum but the quotes I got back were out of site. So I decided to have the net shape water jet from 1/4" steel plate and make some standoffs and weld them together.


I cut and squared one side of a 1 1/2 solid round to 1" long and welded to the bracket. Then I machined them to the correct assembled thickness.


So now they are the correct thickness and square to the mounting face.


Test fitting showed I needed to spot face one side of the cylindrical standoff to make room for the aluminum ears of the knuckle.


So I took a little off the side.


I want to leave as much original aluminum as possible to make it as rigid as possible.


The lower washer needs to be clearanced to make room for the cast iron caliper bracket.


With the caliper mounted you can see how the cast bracket closely follows the bolt and washer of the adapter. The lower one needed the additional clearance.


The back side of the adapter shows the stock 10.9 bolts and the 1/8" thick harden washer for the caliper brackets and the new 1/2-20 socket head bolts and lock nuts with grade 8 washers for the adapter.
I used the thick washers to keep the 10.9's bolt ends away from the rotor's inside surface.


So all bolted together it fits inside the stock 17" mustang wheel.



coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #303, 11-01-2010 06:15 AM
      Very tight fit, I like the bracket, should hold tight like tiger.

Glad to see some progress on your beast, I would post up some pics of my intake, but I am going to have to send it out to a guy a know to work on the alum welding........I just don't trust what I have done.

Jer


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #304, 11-01-2010 08:47 AM
      All I have left to do on the front end is fab the sway bar linkages, bend the top shock mounts into place, flip it over and weld up some spots, then take it all apart and paint it.

And of course install in on the car.

I have some aluminum duct work that I want to do. I'm going to have to practice my aluminum welding a lot before hand.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #305, 11-01-2010 09:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mwhite:

What are you going to use to hold the wheel bearing together? A lot of wheel bearing use the Axle to hold them to gether. I went down this path this year and was disappointed with my solutions a lot of wasted time and money. I tried machining some large bolds and washer to simulate the axles, but they just let the bearings have too much play in them. You may want to just cut up a set of axles.
Cheers, Mike


Yup, that was I going to do,,, did.



Got out my trusty big daddy plasma cutter and cut the cups off a couple of Vue outer CV cups.



I did'nt want that big anus looking knob on the insides of my knuckles, so I needed a little Klingon trimming.



Much better. If anybody else does this take a bit of advice. The spline cups are case harden and the plasma cut does not effect the hardness of the metal beyond a few mills from the cut surface. So when I had these turned down the machinist had to go through interrupted cuts from the hard, brittle plasma cut surface to the case harden material underneath. It took a lot of time. It would have been easier to grind them down rather then machining after cutting them off.



Painted them up and will torque down the hub bearing to the OEM spec of 151 ft lbs.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #306, 11-02-2010 08:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:


Max turn in with 255/40 tires will see some big time rubbing if I don't do something to limit steering or shorten the sway bar.



I need to add another 1/2" worth of stop to each side of the rack to keep the 255's off the sway bar ends.



If I go down to a 245/40 tire I can get away with only 1/8" more stop. It would also be a lighter and tighter wheel combo.




I really did not want to limit the steering anymore then it is. The stops are the corvette units. So I went with a s 1 1/2" shorter sway bar then what R Runner ships for 88's http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/036556.html


With the short bar in the 245's tires have room to breath at full lock. I have some worries about the rest of the fender well when this is install the car.


Another enhancement I applied to R Runners excellent kit was welding the adapter spacer plates in to stiffen up the front part of the sub-frame





I added a little brace for the over hang. Also in view is the 5/8" aluminum spacer to bring the bar up a tad to help clear the steering links.


I welded in a new vertical tab to mount the other side of the sway bar link.


With the shorter bar, the arm ends stay out of the way of the knuckle and line up strait up and down on the softest position. As I move the linkages inboard I can swap sides on the the lower mount and get a 1/2 step adjustment. Also these linkages have left and right handed threaded rod ends so I can adjust left and right pre-load of the sway bar for different tracks and vehicular loads (me alone or with a passenger, it really makes a difference at the edge)



I have about 3/4" clearance between the sway bar arm and the steering linkage.

Over all I'm very pleased how the fit came out with the Vue hubs.



coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #307, 11-02-2010 08:23 PM
      Damn very sweet setup, hope mine goes as well as yours.

Watch out for your endlinks though, I've used similar ones in my old ION redline for the front swaybar links, road contaminants, water and wear can cause the links to get loose and start rattling/clunking around, personally I will never use them on something that isn't 100% track only that didn't get examined after every race.

Jer


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #308, 11-02-2010 08:34 PM
      I hear what your saying, I got rod end cup seals on order to help keep the trash out a little longer. I looked at these http://www.powergridinc.com/swaybar.asp but they are asking $155 for a pair. I did both ends of the car for $80. They would be the best choice for all weather links. 1/4 of the time I do HPDE's it's raining here.



coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #309, 11-02-2010 08:52 PM
      Those are some nice links, but they are closer in design to a ball joint than a rod end........maybe I am just sour but I've had so many cheap rod ends and expensive rod ends stretch out and cause more problems than they are worth, personally I am just sticking to prothane bushings and ball joint on my build just to stay away from problems that I had on other cars.

Jer


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #310, 11-02-2010 09:00 PM
      Once I get this thing back on the track and find out that I'm popping 3/8" rod ends, I can bump it up to 1/2" chromolies if need be. I got so much in front of me I need to to check some boxes as done and get to the next item on the list or I'll never finish this this car.



doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #311, 11-03-2010 12:08 AM
      Nice documentation on this build, its really interesting!

With the new set up, I know you mentioned you can adjust for bump steer, but have you drawn up any linkage diagrams of your geometry to see where your roll center is, and instantaneous centers, etc for the new combination of parts?


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #312, 11-03-2010 07:41 AM
      I have not done a full blown study of this front end verses the stock 88. It all started out as a means to get away from the 88 hub bearing and some get some bigger brakes. I would have stayed with the 110mm bolt pattern of the solstice if there were some cheap wide wheels available.

I did add much more camber gain then stock and the scrub radius is a little less. I have not settled on a ride height yet, but it will be in the range of 4" to 6" measured from the center of the transom.



coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #313, 11-08-2010 07:45 PM
      ccfiero350, quick question for you, are you going to be using meth injection on your supercharger? If so do you have a kit already? If not I have a supercharger spacer plate with two 1/8NPT ports that you can install meth nozzles and piping. I used it on my ION redline, but since my project is going with a turbo I couldn't use the plate. Currently its sitting in my basement with no plans for the plate, if you want it........its yours.

Jer


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #314, 11-08-2010 10:52 PM
      Oh Yea, you betcha I'll take it!



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #315, 11-30-2010 08:44 PM
      Worked on the last bits of the front end. I had left the tops of the coil over mounts long so I could keep it at a ride height when on the bench.


I bent the tops in to following the spring hat.


I needed to bring the mount closer to the shock mount eye so I added thick wall spacers.


I welded it up with all the parts in place. Shown is in the middle is the rod end bearing flanked by cone washers so I can get the shock in and out.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #316, 12-12-2010 10:20 PM
      I had been waiting a while for the rod end seals to show up so I could finish putting together the front end.


These rod ends are your typical two piece metal to metal unit. Once they get gritted up, they stick, then wear out fast. These rubber seals will greatly extend the working life of any rod end.


I used safety cone washers to retain the rod end in case I pop a ball out.


I can adjust the length of each end link via the right and left hand threaded rod ends. These allows me to un-load the sway bar after adjusting cross weights in the car.




So now the front end is pretty much complete and ready to be installed in the notchie.



bubbajoexxx (bubbajoexx@sympatico.ca) MSG #317, 12-13-2010 12:01 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

I had been waiting a while for the rod end seals to show up so I could finish putting together the front end.


These rod ends are your typical two piece metal to metal unit. Once they get gritted up, they stick, then wear out fast. These rubber seals will greatly extend the working life of any rod end.


I used safety cone washers to retain the rod end in case I pop a ball out.


I can adjust the length of each end link via the right and left hand threaded rod ends. These allows me to un-load the sway bar after adjusting cross weights in the car.




So now the front end is pretty much complete and ready to be installed in the notchie.




where did you get your rod end seals


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #318, 12-13-2010 12:01 AM
      i love this build thread . the front end looks awesome . the only critique i have is the single shear mounts on the sway bar ends .there may be some deflection there .keep at it , i allways look foreward to your updates .

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #319, 12-13-2010 12:28 AM
      http://www.sealsit.com/rodend.asp bubbajoexxx

They have some really useful products.

wtfb- yep, it's a concession on the arms. I'll probably have to rework the lower shock mounts once I get all the weight the front end figured out and then I can sort the linkage out.

Thanks for the nice words.




coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #320, 12-13-2010 07:42 AM
      Damn thats looking really sweet, your giving me something to aim for in my build............I'm jealous right now I haven't gotten to work on mine for a couple weeks.

Jer


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #321, 12-14-2010 08:33 AM
      I'm ready to mount it on the car but I got so many honey dues piled up and the holidays coming on, it will be next week before I get back to it.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #322, 12-27-2010 04:01 PM
      Could you post some pictures of updates to your LSJ car? It would be nice to see both the engine, and the car itself, including the inside - simply - how it looks like today.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #323, 12-27-2010 04:31 PM
      Looks like crap.



Still have not installed the new front suspension, maybe this week.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #324, 01-07-2011 09:16 PM
      I decided to take the day off and work on installing the new front end in the notchie today because the weather is supposed to turn crappy this weekend.


First thing I did was un-bolt the rack from the sub-frame to disconnect it from the steering column. After that I undid the break lines from the calipers and removed the tie downs to the sub-frame.
Later on when I was putting it all back together I had to remove the steering shaft and column altogether to adjust it to fit.

I put my jack under the center of the sub-frame and removed the 8 bolts that hold it to the chassis and lowered it to the ground.


Here are some side by side images.

The new front end is about 30lbs heavier then the original one.


Most of it is in the new brakes.


They are just frigging big.


I can't wait to see how HHP's adjustable bars work out on the track.


The front sway bar on the old front end is an Addco bar that's 1.25" thick.


I have to admit with the mods done to the front sheet metal for the flip front end it made working on it much easier.


I balanced it on the floor jack and just lifted up in place in one piece.


1st trick is get the rear tab under the chassis mount pad. 2nd trick is get the alignment pin on the drivers side in it's hole.


Once you get the pin in, the rest of the bolts pull it pretty much into alignment.


The right angle grease fitting has plenty of access room. The steering column D-shaft needed about 1/4" more reach for the corvette rack.

The corvette rack moves the the steering shaft just a bit to the drivers side. I was disappointed to find my rack is
2.5 total turns rather then the 2 turn ZL1 rack that I though I bought. I'll be on the look out for a real one.

Here it is at full droop with the wheels on, And after setting it down for the the first time.



I had just hand tighten the springs on the coil overs and need some more pre-load, and less camber.


I cranked in about an inch of pre-load and reeled in the camber to something a little more appropriate.



The front end is about at the right ride height now.

I like the way the Mustang wheel looks on the car, but I may need more spring rate to keep the front wheels out of the monster camber gain that's dialed in under braking.

Need to get longer brake lines to reach the new calipers and make up some hydraulic hoses for the power steering.



doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #325, 01-07-2011 09:45 PM
      Great post, I love the way this thing is turning out. Keep going with it!

coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #326, 01-07-2011 10:10 PM
      That looks amazing, this project gets better all the time.

Jer


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #327, 02-22-2011 05:18 PM
      It been a while since I have posted here but work has been on going. I have been working with coppertop_01 designing some new suspension pieces.


There rear knuckle for an 88 is a unique piece, and limits the use of larger unitized bearing hubs. So I designed a new one that uses a Saturn Vue hubs and axle.


To fit my IMSA wide body, I need a least a 10 1/2" wheel, and cheap wide wheels come on mustangs. I also incorporated C4 disc with calipers mit parking brakes.


So my special thanks to bloozeberry for his subframe prints, I made a full math model of the 88 rear suspension.


This version features some changes in geometry to help with roll center, camber gain and anti squat with the 2" lowering.


I can do motion analysis with the software with animations, make changes and run it again. Really fun stuff.


I've got some mods to the sub frame that will re-locate the links a tad to fine tune the roll center.


Can't wait to get the pieces to weld up.



FieroWannaBe (patond@alumni.msoe.edu) MSG #328, 02-24-2011 10:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

It been a while since I have posted here but work has been on going. I have been working with coppertop_01 designing some new suspension pieces.


There rear knuckle for an 88 is a unique piece, and limits the use of larger unitized bearing hubs. So I designed a new one that uses a Saturn Vue hubs and axle.


To fit my IMSA wide body, I need a least a 10 1/2" wheel, and cheap wide wheels come on mustangs. I also incorporated C4 disc with calipers mit parking brakes.


So my special thanks to bloozeberry for his subframe prints, I made a full math model of the 88 rear suspension.

This version features some changes in geometry to help with roll center, camber gain and anti squat with the 2" lowering.

I can do motion analysis with the software with animations, make changes and run it again. Really fun stuff.

I've got some mods to the sub frame that will re-locate the links a tad to fine tune the roll center.

Can't wait to get the pieces to weld up.



What software are you using?

[This message has been edited by FieroWannaBe (edited 02-26-2011).]

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #329, 02-24-2011 10:23 PM
      ProE WF 5 and Mechanica



FieroWannaBe (patond@alumni.msoe.edu) MSG #330, 02-25-2011 12:03 PM
      gotcha, Ive never used the peripheral software in ProE, but have in SolidWorks.Its great that your doing some investigation work for the improving the Fiero geometry, always good. What criteria are you using for the roll center location, and do you know where it was at factory spec? Ive read different ideas about locating the roll center relative to the CG height.


fieroguru MSG #331, 02-25-2011 05:45 PM
      I have been kicking around the idea of making a new rear upright for the 88's to accomodate a larger bearing and as part of the design I was going to see if a 2" or 3" drop could be built in while still fitting within a 17" wheel rim. This would lower the chassis while retaining near stock 88 rear suspension geometry.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #332, 02-25-2011 10:47 PM
      The knuckle does lower the toe links which will raise the roll center. In this type of strut suspension there's not much of a camber gain, I'm just trying to keep it positive after it's been lowered.

It would be possible to create one with the axle location dropped a few inches, but it would increase the bending stresses on the strut, which would could add friction in the strut.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #333, 03-22-2011 10:33 AM
      I did some motion analysis on the new knuckle and made some quickie low rez animations.





doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #334, 03-22-2011 10:52 AM
      Nice work on the suspension analysis and CAD models. I've been seeing more of this level of design on Fieros lately! I love it

Keep it up!


coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #335, 03-22-2011 11:44 AM
      Seen it before (CC did a video with my knuckle, not trying to be egotistical in what I was saying), but still impresses never the less.....Like I've said before top notch work there CC

Jer

[This message has been edited by coppertop_01 (edited 03-22-2011).]

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #336, 03-22-2011 12:10 PM
      Received word from Coppertop01 that parts are cut, formed and heading to Houston for me to weld. He was very gracious to take some pictures as they were made.


These are shims to space the rotor from the hub.


It may not be apparent from the photo, but that is 3/8" thick stainless plate these parts are cut from.


The laser cutter uses a 3,200 Watt CO2 laser that operates in the IR spectrum.


Depending on what your cutting, the cut can be as small as .030"


There are two tables that the cutter works over, so you can load/unload one table while it cutting over the other. Each table is 5ft wide and 10ft long. A jib crane is used to load the 500 lb plates on the table.



Flat parts waiting to be formed


The parts are formed on a press brake, this allows you to put a perfect bend with a known radius to any degree to you can fit on the die.


Even though these are made from 3/16" ss, it"s still sheet metal.



The press brake can bend a sheet up to 10 ft wide with up to 140 metric tons of pressure, this unit has dual 3 axis guides.




Next step is welding all the parts together to make a lowered, big bearing knuckle for an 88 fiero.

My thanks to coppertop01 for all his top notch work.



1988holleyformula MSG #337, 03-24-2011 08:55 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

Received word from Coppertop01 that parts are cut, formed and heading to Houston for me to weld. He was very gracious to take some pictures as they were made.

*snip*

My thanks to coppertop01 for all his top notch work.




Wow, I've never read through this thread before. Amazing what your're doing here! I really like the notchie with with the flipper front end.


rourke_87_T-Top (rourke_r@hotmail.com) MSG #338, 03-25-2011 08:42 AM
      Are you planning on putting some sort of hardened sleeve or insert into the knuckle bolt bosses ?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #339, 03-25-2011 09:52 AM
      There is a 1" diameter bar that goes through the lower part with a tapped hole on either side to bolt the lower links on.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #340, 03-29-2011 11:03 PM
      Wow!

I wish someone would design a suspension that would leave the '88 suspension in the dust. So instead of upgrading an '84-'87 rear suspension to '88, it could be upgraded to a setup with better geometry than even an '88. Solidworks and other developments in CAD/CAM, CNC, etc. have enabled us to continue on where Fiero designers left off nearly 30 years ago.

Maybe something like a 4-link setup, or a double wishbone rear suspension.

Either way, please keep the pictures and this build thread coming.


coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #341, 03-30-2011 06:43 AM
      At one time I was thinking of looking at doing a double wishbone setup, but that was well before I started doing work with CCfiero.

Jer


Bloozberry MSG #342, 03-30-2011 09:12 AM
      It's just no fair that we don't all have free access to multi-million dollar machining and metal forming shops! All the productive things that could be done... (not to mention all the expensive metal that would end up in the scrap bin after folding it the wrong way!) So tell us the truth... how many knuckle pieces did we not see? Where's the reject pile?

Seriously, this looks amazing. Can't wait to see more.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #343, 03-30-2011 09:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Bloozberry:

So tell us the truth... how many knuckle pieces did we not see? Where's the reject pile?


Actually this kind of work is my stock and trade. Giving the advancements of 3D cad, and a good sheet metal shop, and years of experience, I can find the major design issues before it ever leaves my work station. Coppertop_1 can spot production issues before it's made. Together we make a good team.

There were two different sets made, His, custom designed for cobalt/ion hubs and stock geometry, and mine, custom designed for bigger vue hubs, wide rims, and is lowered. Both sets came out pretty well and fitted up with out too much work. No scrap parts, no extra pieces.

Now that I have the parts in my hands, I have a few ideas for improvements though.

I'll be taking pictures of the weld up and post soon.

Thanks,



coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #344, 03-30-2011 09:58 AM
      CC is right, the pieces that I cut mine and CC's out of are the original pieces, no scrap pieces, thats not saying there wasn't a couple small problems, a couple bends fell into the die during bending, but nothing that can't be repaired with some brute strength and a little more welding. I can't believe how well everything came out, 3D cad is amazing when its done right and the proper tolerances are used in the design stage.

Jer


doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #345, 03-30-2011 10:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by coppertop_01:

3D cad is amazing when its done right and the proper tolerances are used in the design stage.

Jer


I second that statement. It really helps you to foresee any design flaws before a part is even made / money is wasted. As long as you understand manufacturing processes available, as well as tolerances, you're gold!

Keep this build going Looks great!


Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #346, 04-02-2011 02:23 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

I did some motion analysis on the new knuckle and made some quickie low rez animations.




Since your video reminded me of suspension Pr0n, I decided to leave this here:

Lamborghini Aventator


Too bad such a suspension setup doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a Fiero.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #347, 04-03-2011 10:51 AM
      Very Cool! Just look how thin and fragile those links look. I wonder what happens when you run over a curb or pot hole in a real Lambo?



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #348, 04-03-2011 11:15 AM
      Received my parts from Coppertop01 last week and started in on the welding.


The strut mount portion is laminated, typically this would be a solid waterjetted part, but we improvised with the materials and machines we had out our disposal.


I added weld reliefs for ease of alignment of the laminates and to change the bending characteristics from a leaf spring to more like a solid bar.


Certain faces of the strut mount need to ground back to flat to fit flush on the next part of the assembly.


Both sets done, just need a little more prep for the next stage, more to come.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #349, 04-10-2011 11:52 PM
      Continuing on with the welding, the two sheet metal halves of the knuckle need to be boxed before assembly.



The horizontal linkage fill piece is welded to the outer shell.

The two shells are bolt clamped together in prep to weld the inside seams of the inner shell.


This sets the angle for the nested parts.

This side was a special case. I cut the inside piece in half and welded it back together because it was inadvertently bent and unbent in one place and stretched the metal.


The knuckle really starts taking shape when you weld the strut mount onto the sheet metal parts.

The weld bung hole on the face of the knuckle half anchors the strut mount to the inside knuckle half. Later it will be welded to the outside half bung hole.


The strut mounts are fully perimeter welded to the inside sheet metal part.


You can start to see the difference in the new piece and the stock 88 knuckle


The offset difference is shown.


These guys are made to fit a lot deeper wheel.


It may not be apparent from this angle but the axle location is lowered too.

Ran out of argon, more to come.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #350, 04-11-2011 05:19 PM
      Wow, looks great.

I'm curious, why did you decide on using the existing 3-link setup with improved geometry, instead a 4-link, or other more modern setup? It looks like you really know suspension geometry, and the Fiero could use a more modern setup.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #351, 04-12-2011 09:25 AM
      Wellll, originally I was just going to do an engine swap and get the car back on the road, that was 2007, then I came across some cool parts, and you know the rest of the story.

The 3-link is a pretty good design for a strut based suspension, it only lacks a good camber gain. To do better in a fiero, I would drop the strut and do full on SLA type, but they would mean a whole new sub frame and mods to the chassis space frame to boot.

To get the camber gain in a good usable zone with these new knuckles, I just need to raise the inboard toe mounts about an inch. That's a whole lot easier then adding another whole set of tie in points a foot above the lower mounts.

My main goal was to get away from the weeny fiero hub bearing and use cheap wide wheels along with off the shelf axles that fit the MU3 transmission and Vue hubs.



RacerX11 (mdurbanc@yahoo.com) MSG #352, 04-12-2011 05:05 PM
      Couldn't you achieve the same result by lowering the lateral link attachment points on the knuckle an inch? Or would this change the roll center compared to raising the inboard attachment points? Is there even room to lower the knuckle attachment points without interfering with the trailing arm?

Nice work!



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #353, 04-12-2011 05:58 PM
      You can, and I did, to a point. You need to lower both the laterals and trailing link together. Increasing the angle of the trailing will increase anti-squat.

There is a pretty good twist that goes on when brake is applied between these points. As you move away from the axle centerline and at the same time move away from the wheel centerline, it multiplies the torque applied so you have to add more metal to keep it from bending.

Moving the inboard lateral pickups does not change that twist in the knuckle, so it's cool.

Moving either pickup point will effect the roll center, and in the case of my rear end, I'm trying to raise it up. The front is a whole other animal.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #354, 04-13-2011 01:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:
Wellll, originally I was just going to do an engine swap and get the car back on the road, that was 2007, then I came across some cool parts, and you know the rest of the story.
The 3-link is a pretty good design for a strut based suspension, it only lacks a good camber gain. To do better in a fiero, I would drop the strut and do full on SLA type, but they would mean a whole new sub frame and mods to the chassis space frame to boot.
To get the camber gain in a good usable zone with these new knuckles, I just need to raise the inboard toe mounts about an inch. That's a whole lot easier then adding another whole set of tie in points a foot above the lower mounts.
My main goal was to get away from the weeny fiero hub bearing and use cheap wide wheels along with off the shelf axles that fit the MU3 transmission and Vue hubs.


I know how that is. I'm guessing by the time you'll finish the build you'll probably replace the now aged LSJ with an LNF motor. - I guess that's the nature of long-term builds.

You have a point with the 3-link suspension. I'm not that lucky. I have a pre '88 so I don't even have a trailing link. I know I could put in an '88 rear end, but that's a lot of effort. (finding an '88, separating the motor from the cradle, separating my motor from cradle, etc. )

At that point it may be fun to do an even better version than just the '88 suspension, hence my idea of a double wishbone.

I had to look up the term "SLA", as I just know it as an unequal A-arm double wishbone suspension. Then again "SLA" is much faster to say, and also yielded this cool video:



I see how making a mount for the UCL (upper control arm) would be difficult, but I think there may be a way of mounting one by just modifying the cradle and leaving the rest of the Fiero Space-frame stock. (maybe tying it into the stock upper strut mount) Kind of like the people who made the above video. Agent 47
Granted, this is for a front end, but a similar approach of triangulation may still work. What do you think?


[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 04-13-2011).]

Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #355, 04-13-2011 01:47 PM
      The other idea I had was to mimic (or buy at $300-$600) a Porsche Boxster rear suspension:





Either way. Your improved knuckle looks great and I like the idea of using modern wheel bearings that survive track abuse.


Goldenfoot (rt_jb_whittington07@q.com) MSG #356, 04-13-2011 03:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Austrian Import:


I know how that is. I'm guessing by the time you'll finish the build you'll probably replace the now aged LSJ with an LNF motor. - I guess that's the nature of long-term builds.




Actually, while the LNF motor is newer and delivers more power stock, There isnt enough aftermarket demand for power modifications as compared to the LSJ. The biggest reason is that the LNF is direct injected and there is no supplier that offers a direct injector of higher capacity than the stock. The LSJ thought has alot more room to add and for much less $.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #357, 04-13-2011 10:38 PM
      That boxster subframe is a great example of what a SLA rear should look like.

The Agent 47 video demonstrates exactly what happens to the 88 tri-link rear set up. What I'm trying to do is to get it behave a little better.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #358, 04-14-2011 03:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:
That Boxster subframe is a great example of what a SLA rear should look like.
The Agent 47 video demonstrates exactly what happens to the 88 tri-link rear set up. What I'm trying to do is to get it behave a little better.

So do you think a setup like this is feasible on a Fiero? The way I envision it by modifying (or redesigning, while keeping the stock attachment points) a Fiero cradle, while keeping the Fiero spaceframe intact? Or do you see it as more involved?

Could you elaborate on your take of the Agent 47 video? I'm confused if you meant the 88 tri-link setup is like the "before" part of using McPhaerson struts with very aggressive camber angle, or the "after' part where one would use the Agent 47 SLA "drop in" adapter?



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #359, 04-14-2011 05:03 PM
      The SLA rear has been done in a fiero. There's even a kit. Ask Dave http://team321.com

The tri-link setup is like the "before" set up. You can dial in static camber but it hurts you in strait line acceleration.



coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #360, 04-14-2011 05:48 PM
      aussie, might have you covered with the 88 cradle, guess you haven't seen my build? CC dropped me some plans for a 88 cradle and from there I was able to autocad, laser, form and weld a new 88 style cradle custom built to take a LSJ and F35 transmission.

The previous guy was right about the LNF's, they are a great motor, but there is some large problems with using it as a bolt in motor, the LSJ is much easier with a greater array of aftermarket support and removing the blower and putting on a turbo is fairly easy.

CC.......that boxter rear end gives me idea's, although I ain't doing that to my car, maybe the next one.

Jer



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #361, 04-15-2011 12:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:
The SLA rear has been done in a fiero. There's even a kit. Ask Dave http://team321.com
The tri-link setup is like the "before" set up. You can dial in static camber but it hurts you in strait line acceleration.


Thanks. There is a lot of things I like about it. I'm not sure if it's still for sale though. Seems that Dave has sold the Fiero business to HT Motorsports. - I could be wrong though. Is there footage of anyone having bought the kit/installed it? I'm not sure what to use as a search term to find it.


[IMG]http://team321.com/MidEngineCradle/images/rear_wframe.jpg [/IMG]

I like how it would allow for a longitudinal engine configuration. - which could work well for a boxer motor type setup (Subie, or Porsche)
I'm not that happy what it would extend the Fiero wheelbase. - I wonder if a similar setup could be made using a transverse engine configuration. (maybe with existing cradle attachment points)

ccfiero350 thanks for explaining which setup the Fiero suspension corresponds to.

[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 04-15-2011).]

Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #362, 04-15-2011 12:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by coppertop_01:
aussie, might have you covered with the 88 cradle, guess you haven't seen my build? CC dropped me some plans for a 88 cradle and from there I was able to autocad, laser, form and weld a new 88 style cradle custom built to take a LSJ and F35 transmission.

The previous guy was right about the LNF's, they are a great motor, but there is some large problems with using it as a bolt in motor, the LSJ is much easier with a greater array of aftermarket support and removing the blower and putting on a turbo is fairly easy.

CC.......that boxter rear end gives me idea's, although I ain't doing that to my car, maybe the next one.
Jer


Cool. Please elaborate. I think it would be fun to make an '88 style tube sub-frame. Especially if the blueprints can be modified to solve some of the problems that even the '88 frame/suspension had.
I like the idea of a Boxster subframe as well. (adapted to the above CAD cradle) The Porsche suspension subframe is, as a complete assembly, fairly affordable. I just don't know if the geometry would match a Fiero front end. As I was pondering in Anyone know I a Boxer Engine will fit? , I think it would be cool to take a whole Porsche Boxster rear end (incl) motor and make a custom cradle that uses Fiero attachment points (cradle, and subframe) It just depends on how cheap a running Boxster could be found where the rear end is intact, and the front-end damage is excessive enough to total out the donor Porsche.

What I like about the LNF motor is the great gas mileage and low end torque. Direct injection makes smaller engines feel as if they had more cylinders. I agree, it's relatively new technology and there isn't much tuning potential out there. I'd basically be stuck with a stock LNF drivetrain (engine/transmission from a Cobalt SS, or HHR-SS, or F-35 + Ecotec from a Solstice). For California emissions it would be great, because I'm not allowed to modify the drvetrain anyways. Just sad, that if I'd like to modify the engine for more power, I'd have to stick with GM's "Stage 2/3/etc." kits.

It would be great to have blueprints for an '88 style (or other) cradle that could then customized for various projects. (like a SLA derivative) I guess it's time for me to learn Solidworks.

[This message has been edited by Austrian Import (edited 04-15-2011).]

coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #363, 04-15-2011 01:07 PM
      Using some drawings that CCfiero sent my way and a 88 cradle that I borrowed from a local member I was able to design (CCfiero did the 3D renderings and found a couple problems that I had) a sheet metal 88 cradle made from 1/8" mild steel, each rail piece had 2 pieces that were formed and welded together, I had also integrated factory motor mount locations for the LSJ/F35 transmission. Everything is posted on my blog, you will have to go a couple months back to see the progress though http://coppertopautosports.blogspot.com/, unfortunately it will be a couple years before I actually get to road testing my design..........

Jer



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #364, 04-15-2011 03:44 PM
      Thank you.

I hope it won't be that long. It would be cool to see that design come to life.

Is your idea to do an exact copy of the '88 cradle at first, and then modify it for more modern suspension geometry?
What year Fiero did you design this for?
If you're doing this for a 'pre '88 Fiero, it would be nice for this cradle to accept the 'pre '88 coolant lines, which would have to be modified when using an '88 cradle in a pre '88 car.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #365, 04-15-2011 03:54 PM
      Coppertop_01's cradle uses 88 geometry in 84-87 cars. We did not make any special provisions for stock cooling, the ecotec coolant lines do have some differences, ones in front of the motor, the other behind it on the other end.

It'll probably change over time.



coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #366, 04-15-2011 04:37 PM
      CC is right, in my current version I haven't changed too much over the 88, but this will change in time......in my case it was just to build one so we had something to start with.

Jer


Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #367, 04-21-2011 04:49 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by coppertop_01:

CC is right, in my current version I haven't changed too much over the 88, but this will change in time......in my case it was just to build one so we had something to start with.

Jer


I've been looking at your blog and I have to say I'm in awe of your fabrication talent and your combined design talents.

I hope you'll keep tinkering with the design of the cradle. Looking at your pictures I kept visualizing an upper control arm mounted ~10" above the lower suspension links for a true SLA type setup. Either built up from the custom cradle (like the Agent 47 setup) and tying into the Fiero subframe for stability, or even mounted to the Fiero subframe.

Do you just have the cradle as a design file, or do you also have the Fiero subframe as a CAD file as well? Would it be really hard to design the above as a CAD file and do a similar suspension animation as CCFieros suspension geometry video?

Well, it's late my mind is already half way in dreaming about suspensions, may as well go to bed and actually get some shut eye.


coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #368, 04-21-2011 07:39 AM
      The designs I have right now are in CAD, but I don't have a completely put together version yet.........more of a mix and match of different angles and flats used in the laser process, unfortunately it would probably take somebody a little while to make sense of the drawings, one day I will get down to cleaning them up and either learning solid edge or pass them onto CCfiero to do the 3D renderings.

Back when I started my project I was thinking of doing a SLA rear setup, heck I even went to the wreckers a few times to look at other RWD SLA setup cars, but always left unimpressed (except for the 240's). In hindsight if I were to start the project over I would probably look at doing a SLA rear setup........but then also in hindsight I would have started this car as a tube chassis instead of fixing up a rotting chassis, its amazing how much a project will grow past the original idea.

Jer



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #369, 04-21-2011 09:28 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Austrian Import:


Do you just have the cradle as a design file, or do you also have the Fiero subframe as a CAD file as well? Would it be really hard to design the above as a CAD file and do a similar suspension animation as CCFieros suspension geometry video?



These days, the design file, cad files, are one in the same, the core data is used through out the process. I just use different modules in ProE to do different things. Sometimes the geometry data is exported to a another software packages because either it's does it better then ProE or I don't have the module that will let me do the task. The design work is not all that hard for me, but it is time consuming, and paying gigs have top priority on my work station.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #370, 04-21-2011 11:46 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by coppertop_01:
Back when I started my project I was thinking of doing a SLA rear setup, heck I even went to the wreckers a few times to look at other RWD SLA setup cars, but always left unimpressed (except for the 240's). In hindsight if I were to start the project over I would probably look at doing a SLA rear setup........but then also in hindsight I would have started this car as a tube chassis instead of fixing up a rotting chassis, its amazing how much a project will grow past the original idea.


It's interesting, how many times I hear, that rather than doing a SLA type setup on a Fiero, or better the suspension, to rather just start over with a tube frame. Often I hear that the "wet noodle" chassis of the Fiero would be the weak point of a great suspension setup. It seems the same for kit cars these days. - Most suggest just starting with a blank tube frame.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #371, 04-21-2011 10:37 PM
      structurally , the fiero frame was one of the strongest of its era .and even today when people want to create a full out racing chassis , they usually dont have a full space frame style chassis like a fiero's to start with .i read an article about making an scca class racer out of a nissan 350Z and how they tore the whole car apart and stitch welded the entire unibody chassis .when i say stitch welded , that is not actually an accurate term as all the welds were continuous with no gaps at all .the cost was huge , but it doubled the torsional rigidity of the chassis .look at our space frame . it is only spot welded together and it is yet very strong .stitch welding a fiero frame would gain a lot of strength and not cost much if you did it yourself .

Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #372, 04-22-2011 04:19 PM
      That may be a project someday. It reminds me of the saying with Porsche 914 owners. "First you have to take the body off and finish welding it, as they never finished welding it at the factory."

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #373, 04-22-2011 05:20 PM
      One of these days before I die, I'd like to build a tube frame car like a lotus 7. Something simple and quick.



Bridgetown MSG #374, 04-23-2011 07:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Goldenfoot:

I believe the Atoms Ecotec had different cams. Another thing is that GM rated their supercharged ecotecs HP at the wheels to help lower insurance costs to buyers. I am assuming the Atoms is Crank HP. So a stock cobaltSS/Ionredline rated at 205 HP is just at the wheels. Crank would be closer to 230~. A stage 2 close to 270~. So for an Atom, smaller pully, different cams, better charge cooling and a tune to match would probably bring it into the 300HP range. Look on www.cobaltss.net They have some crazy mods to get some high #s out of their cars!


The internals of the Atom are the same as all the other LSJ's the "stage 3" setup consists of the injectors from the stage 2 upgrade and the following:
The Stage 3 kit consists of the following:

"
• Smaller, 76mm supercharger pulley
• 2-pass intercooler end plate
• Unique PCM which includes a calibration for the smaller pulley, an adjustable rev limiter, a 100 octane mode, and a nitrous algorithm.

Our Stage 3 kit will take your supercharged Ecotec to a whole new level of performance. Stage 3 takes horsepower output to 248 on 93 octane fuel and to 260 horsepower on 100 octane fuel.
In addition to the power increase, you'll also get an adjustable rev limiter and calibration for a 50 shot of nitrous (nitrous kit not included).
For best power, we recommend also installing a high-flow exhaust.

The PCM is equipped with a user adjustable rev limit from 6750 to 8000 rpm. The rev limit is adjusted by pressing on the throttle pedal with the ignition on and engine off. At about 50% throttle the tachometer will show the current rev limit. Pressing the throttle further will adjust the rev limit in 250 rpm increments. This PCM is also equipped with a control scheme for the equivalent of a 50-horse shot of Nitrous. The PCM will automatically provide the proper spark and fuel for A Nitrous up to 500 rpm below the current selected rev limit when the trigger is activated."


I imagine that the extra power (260 up to 300) in the Atom comes from the better exhaust sytem.
I can verify that the Atom does utalize the drive-by-wire throttle body. Which means to use the Atom PCM in a Fiero one would need to use a Cobalt gas pedal. The Atom also uses a race type gauge cluster from SPA. The cluster is progamable for different inputs. As far as I have researched, all that would be needed to run the LSJ off the Atom PCM is the Cobalt pedal and the SPA gauge cluster. You might be able to get the Fiero guages to work too, but I'm not sure on that.

The Atom PCM is not technically a stand alone setup. It does not come with software to tune it. I think more or less it is the same as the Cobalt SS/Redline, flashed to a stage 3 tune, minus the need for the BCM. However, I know of at least one place http://trifectaperformance....pportedvehicles.aspx that can tune the Atom PCM. You can purchase the Atom PCM on the net for around $500. If you can do a bit of wiring, that's all it would cost to get the LSJ running in the Fiero. If not there's always enginewiring.com, they will build you a harness for around $325


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #375, 04-24-2011 10:57 AM
      My LSJ is stock at the moment, and will run off a mefi4 controller. Once the car is running, I have all the parts for a stage 3 upgrade along with new clutch and alum flywheel and balancer delete.

I'd like to see a good solid reliable 260-280 hp with a stage 2 pulley for track days.



Bridgetown MSG #376, 04-24-2011 01:04 PM
      Cc, do you have the me controller? I haven't heard anything from painless performance on it. I can't find anyone running one either. I'm curious how the base tune is on it, the Atom guys often complain about the tune from Brammo. The issues seem to be performance under hi temps. Mostly caused by an undersized heat exchanger in the Atom. When the temps go up, the tune starts to kill the power.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #377, 04-24-2011 01:56 PM
      I have an ECU from Brammo via Gale Banks around here some where that I need to sell. I've heard a lot about the heat soak problems and worked on getting a butt more cooling capacity in my car.

The ecotec is a hot ticket for sand rails, I got mine from http://www.cbmmotorsports.com/Pages/comp.html

MSD has it too. http://www.msdfuelinjection.com/mefi4.html



Bridgetown MSG #378, 04-24-2011 02:15 PM
      Which version of the Brammo tune do you have? I think they had a stage 2 and 3. PM me about the ECU, I would be interested if the price is right. From what I have gathered, the heat soak problem can be solved by adding a larger heat exchanger (down low in front of Fiero cradle might be a good spot), adding a surge tank (available from GM called "option B") and upgrading the intercooler to a dual pass endplate. I have also read that it is a good idea to upgrade the valve springs on the LSJ in stage 3 trim, the stock ones are only good to around 6800-7000 rpm.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #379, 04-24-2011 02:47 PM
      I have a spot for a BIG radiator for the inter cooler up front and all the bits for the upgrade. Need to finish body repair first. See http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/098086.html



Brand new, still have the original box. Stage 3, if your in the business you know how nice it is to have one to exchange with, and one to hack. Make me a reasonable offer.



Bridgetown MSG #380, 04-24-2011 06:30 PM
      PM sent

Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #381, 04-25-2011 04:52 PM
      coppertop_01, any more progress with your build?

CCFiero, anything new with your build, mechanics wise, or are you concentrating on the body atm?


zkhennings MSG #382, 05-01-2011 04:43 PM
      Any Updates?

coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #383, 05-02-2011 07:04 AM
      I didn't really get anything done this weekend.......Friday had to stay late at work to finish month end, it was UFC 129 this weekend so Saturday was finished and didn't get home till almost 3 on sunday morning and then on Sunday at 8am I had to hit the wreckers for a "all you can haul day" basically pay $50 and you can take whatever you can walk out with. I did get a few parts for the project car, I got a master cylinder from a 90's Firebird with a 3.4L in it (and ABS), it will work great with a ABS unit from a ION/cobalt because it only has the 2 output, but it will bolt to the brake booster from a Fiero, so I think it will be a perfect fit between the old school brakes of the Fiero and the more modern brakes from the ABS units of the cobalt/ion's. I also grabbed some 4 piston brakes from a mid 90's Mercedes, they are smaller than the Brembo's that I have for the front, so they should balance well with the bigger units from the front......although I still have to grab some mechanical brakes from willwood for my E-brake, best part is that with a balancing valve and the ABS I should be able to get the brakes working well.

Give me a day or two (got 4000'ish photo's to go through from the UFC) and I will update the blog and my thread on the board here.

Jer



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #384, 05-02-2011 04:15 PM
      Sounds cool. Can't wait to see pics and the loot you brought.

 
quote
Originally posted by coppertop_01:
Sunday at 8am I had to hit the wreckers for a "all you can haul day" basically pay $50 and you can take whatever you can walk out with.


Is there a limit to this? Does that mean you could rip out an engine/drivetrain, etc. for that much? In that case I could do a Subie swap, or my own Ecotec swap, or anything really. It would leave a lot of money over for the fabrication budget.
Wish we had those here.


coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #385, 05-02-2011 05:08 PM
      There isn't really a limit except what you can carry, keep in mind you can't drag it out, there is two lines on the ground about 30 feet apart and the parts must be off the ground strapped to your body/in your arms/on your head for that 30 feet.......also you have to take out the tools that you use at the same time, its a careful balance, bring what tools you need to keep weight in to a min to maximize the amount you can bring out. As well having an idea of what exactly you are looking for and what tools you need to bring those parts out is a must, after doing these hauls for over 7 years I've become a bit used to planning it all out, and yes I have taken engines and transmissions (separately) out for $50 before. Also if you have another person (wife, g/f, friend, street hobo etc) that can take your tools they will get a credit because they weren't carrying anything which is good for another trip later in the year.......

Jer


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #386, 06-11-2011 11:06 PM
      It's been awhile since the last post. Work has picked up and was not able to spend too much time on the knuckles. So here is were we left it.

The horizontal links are tied into the knuckle by a 1" bar thats goes through the knuckle and is threaded at both ends for 1/2-20 bolt.



Here it is prior to being welded in.


One of the through bolt holes had to have the welds clearances for the bolt head.


I bolted the knuckle to a flat surface and welded on the brake bracket.


The bracket completes the box that holds the bearing.
Later I found a better method to ensure good caliper alignment. I will assemble the whole unit and use the brake assembly as a fixture to tack the bracket on first.


I had a pair of corvette rotor around that had been drilled for 100x5, so I slotted the oem holes to fit the 4 1/2" Ford pattern since the rotor is still hub centric. Look Ma, no adapter rings!


I did have to drill out the strut mount holes to get the right fit and to smooth out the lamination offsets in the bolt hole.


Here is the number one reason I've gone through all the trouble and making new knuckles.

Cheap fat rims for cheap wide tires! 285/40x17! I can also fit a 315/34-17!



Here is an important shot. On top, stock 2006 cobalt SS axle, Bottom, replacement axle for a 06 Chevy Equinox. The inboard spline fits the F35 and F40 tranny. The cobalt SS outboard spline fits the stock fiero hub, also is the correct length for a cool ecotec swap.. The Equinox has the same bolt pattern and hub diameter of the late model mustang and the hub diameter is the same as the c4 vette and is just a tad longer then the cobalt SS axle.

No custom axles.


It is bigger then the fiero version and it's 100% STAINLESS STEEL


Bolted it in with the stock fiero length horizontal end links. These are not the right length for this knuckle, they need to be about an inch longer, and the oem trailing has too much diagonal offset to bolt on.


With the too short links the strut is too close to the frame rail to fit the sway bar fittings, But you can see how much space is at the top of the tire for more camber.


Its at about the right ride hight now, with out the trailing arm in place the wheel needs a little centering in the wheel well.


The new horizontal links will both be adjustable so I can move the wheel to flush with the fender lip.


The 285/40-17 tire gives me a nearly flat side wall, I'm going to try a 315/35-17 on the other rim to see how it looks.



doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #387, 06-12-2011 03:00 AM
      This is turning out great! keep it up. Those custom uprights are intense. Not many guys can say they've been this thorough in customizing their cars!

coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #388, 06-12-2011 08:14 AM
      Damn those came out really nice CC, and those fat rims look great on the backside of a fiero, thats a lot of progress keep up the great work.

Jer



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #389, 06-26-2011 07:51 PM
      I finished up welding my driver side knuckle with a better procedure then the passenger side. I was a little impatient the last time and it needed a little tweaking afterward.


This time I bolted the caliper bracket to the caliper and clamped it in place.


There is a machined surface on the inside of the OEM bracket that I was able to register off of with a steel ruler that was the right thickness. This set the bracket in the right plane and I tacked welded to the rest of the knuckle before fully welding it.


This ended up being much more accurate then the 1st method I used. With the bearing bolted in place, I had to stop and let it cool down between welds or I would melt the grease out.


With the caliper in place, it did look like it was a little more out board then I thought it was going to be.


But you can see the outside brake pad edge is about a 1/16" inside the outer diameter of the rotor. So it will maximize the mechanical aspects of the 12" rotor.


With these calipers, I have a choice of running the cable over the top of the axle or under it.


They fit pretty nice in a 17" wheel. There is a Wilwood 2 piece rotor that's a direct bolt on.



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #390, 07-28-2011 11:52 PM
      Any updates on your builds?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #391, 07-29-2011 08:47 AM
      I have the new trailing links but yet to install them.

I've started a new company and most of my time and resources have been applied to it over the last few months. My shop is full of hydraulics and motion controllers at the moment.



iluvsd619 (luv6192000@yahoo.com) MSG #392, 08-15-2011 08:24 PM
      I am loving the axle info on this thread. I'm trying to see if this is a true bolt on plug and play. Let me see if I get it right. So i'm doing a F40 trans on a 3800sc. I hear that the (05-07) Cobalt SS axles are the ones to use. One side bolts to the tranny, and the other bolts to the fiero hub. I need two right side axles and an intermediate shaft for the right side. All from the Cobalt SS. The only thing I need to do is fab up a bracket to bolt to the v6. Did I follow this correctly? If not, please break it down to me like I new nothing about cars and it was my first time. This will save me so much money if this is the route to take for F40 axles. Thanks.

iluvsd619 (luv6192000@yahoo.com) MSG #393, 08-15-2011 08:25 PM
      Very nice build by the way!

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #394, 08-16-2011 11:36 AM
      I think so, but I'm not sure if the f40 and f35 have the same exact differential offset, The 05-07 Cobalt SS axles are the same length on both sides, and will plug into the f40 and the fiero hubs.



coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #395, 08-16-2011 11:50 AM
      I can agree with CC on this one, a customer/friend of mine was looking to install a F40 trans on his cobalt and there was some major issues getting it to fit correctly, in the end he stuck with a stock LSD tranny from a cobalt SS/SC.

Also I don't know how you are going to be mounting the jack shaft setup from a ecotec motor on a 3800 series to use cobalt axles, since the jack shaft bolts to the ecotec and will not have the same locations on a 3800. Not something to completely stop a build, but enough to question the fees-ability of it. I would almost look at a hybrid/custom axle setup with a set of stock cobalt axles and get them shortened or lengthened to remove the use of the jack shaft.

Jer



iluvsd619 (luv6192000@yahoo.com) MSG #396, 08-20-2011 07:27 PM
      Very informative, thank you guys.

BigBrother (getjamin@gmail.com) MSG #397, 10-27-2011 01:28 AM
      So I start reading this thread and getting all excited 'cuz someone already did my build - and depressed, 'cuz there's no WAY I'm gonna do all that fabrication.

And then I see an old friend, Coppertop, doing the same thing, starting from the same place. And designing a custom cradle, no less.

'sup, Coppertop?! Sally's drivetrain is looking for a mid-mounted new home.

How's all this coming? And is that new cradle order-able yet?


coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #398, 10-27-2011 07:01 AM
      BigBrother.........sorry I don't recognize your handle, unfortunately I have a bad memory for names, but I remember peoples cars.....lol

As for the cradle, my project is running about a year behind my initial schedule, although the project has taken a life of its own and isn't what my original plans were. I'm hoping this winter to have all the major mechanical done enough that I can disassemble the car and complete the welding and maybe start the finishing and assembly next year, until I test the cradle in my running car I don't feel like being responsible for a untested product.

Jer



BigBrother (getjamin@gmail.com) MSG #399, 10-27-2011 11:47 PM
      I have the same handle on RLF and CSS. Pacific Blue 2005 competition package. Big wreck in March totaled her. I'm sure I know you from the other boards better than you know me, given you're right up there with John (Qwik) in the "done a ton for the community" category, lol.

I am in the process of learning AutoCAD and Inventor; workers comp sent me to school when the 1st wreck (on the clock) left me unable to work for my old employer anymore. Unfortunately they're only paying for the "101" type courses for each, so I have a lot to learn still - BUT - they DID get me a top of the line HP mobile workstation and the ENTIRE AutoDesk suite complete with a 3 year professional subscription. So if I can help, let me know..!


coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #400, 10-28-2011 06:53 AM
      Thats why I don't recognize the handle, I personally banned RLF years ago due to their views on vendors and their pricing to be a vendor.........and CSS used to have a lot of good info, now I find it a bit of a flame battle forum. I wouldn't put me up with John, he's done a butt load more than I have in the delta chassis world.......but it does help being 45 mins from his shop

Sorry to hear about your crash, but good luck with the schooling, I find it nice to sit down and design new stuff, don't get too overwhelmed with it, I am completely self taught and still learn new things with it all the time.

Jer



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #401, 12-13-2011 07:46 AM
      bump for news.

j bf1 (jbf1@hotmail.com) MSG #402, 12-28-2011 11:17 PM
      Any progress??

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #403, 01-09-2012 10:08 AM
      It's been a long time and I've been busy with my daily gig, but I got to spend some time with my favorite personal project this weekend. It was shorts and t-shirt weather and I needed to install the big lugs and nuts.



The lugs that come with the Vue hubs are the standard 12mm that come on most GM cars, but they are a little short and a little smaller then the Ford 1/2" lugs that are on the mustang.



As you can see there is a big difference.


The old lugs were pressed out and the holes enlarged for the bigger pressed in ARP lugs. So the finished hub looks like this. I'll do the fronts the same way.


When I last worked on the car I installed the new custom knuckles but I did not get to install the trailing links. So before I re-assembled the rear suspension I set it up at ride height and pulled it into a known alignment and tacked on the new pick up point for the trailing link.



The end links are pretty cool, die cast stainless and they give me just the right kind of flexibility I want. I will have to undo the front of the link when I want to drop the sub-frame.


The new position does increase anti-squat from stock, I'm going to put another pick-up point on the bottom side of the sub-frame to take out most of the anti-squat if I want.




It did go all back together really well.


At ride height the trailing links clear the 315x17 flat tire with room to spare.






Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #404, 03-07-2012 05:04 PM
      Did the motor fire up yet?

Dough19 MSG #405, 05-08-2012 11:30 PM
      bump. Interested in the progress and also wondering which type and class of racing you are planning on running this in??

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #406, 05-09-2012 07:26 AM
      Not much progress to post other then I fixed the flat so I can roll it around.

The next thing on my list is upgrade the wheel studs on the front and install 475# springs.

With all the suspension mods and engine swap, I'm no longer certain were the car would be classed in SCCA. I like doing the DE with the local BMW and PCA clubs at Texas World Speedway, loads of fun.

Once I get to the point of installing a roll cage, I serious need to determine what class it would belong to and make a legal cage.



BMTFIERO (bmtfiero@outlook.com) MSG #407, 06-12-2012 11:53 AM
      bump

Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #408, 08-24-2012 01:20 PM
      updates?

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #409, 09-01-2012 09:11 AM
      Not much has happened since the last post. I've been hobbled by an old spine injury and has kept me in a chair longer then I've wanted. Looking forward to some surgery this month and get back my mobility.

I've been really wanting to do some foam and fibor glassing sculpting on the front fenders to finish out the full IMSA look.



Bloozberry MSG #410, 09-01-2012 10:30 PM
      Looking good there ccfiero350! It's been a while since I've checked out your thread so I hope you don't take my post as a "hit and run".

I found the forward mount of the trailing link interesting, though I'm not sure I understand why you've chosen that particular configuration. I'm sure you've taken in to consideration that all of the (massive) tractive forces are going to be transferred to the chassis through the trailing links, so do you mind expanding a bit on why you chose the double jointed clevis over a simpler hemispherical rod end? To me, it appears as though the system places the small looking vertical clevis pin in double shear (unless the pin is torqued to pinch the end of the trailing link tighly). If it's allowed to pivot though, then I'd be concerned that the repetitive application of power and braking forces will quickly increase the amount of play in the joint and eventually shear the pin. I'd be worried that if that happens you'd lose directional stability in a heartbeat.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #411, 09-02-2012 11:19 AM
      I wanted to be able to try different amounts of anti squat down to zero anti-squat for the track. I have not put in the other mount and finish gusseting the tie in points. Next time I drop the sub frame I will finish up the fab work on that.

The joints are chosen because a 5/8 regular rod end would be closer to max misalignment on a straight link and open to contamination more, these look real promising for wet driving and I can adjust the compliance of the joint by swapping the bushing to a harder material like nylon or acetyl.

I did look into high misalignment joints but they are just as hard to seal.

Plan B would be 3/4" rod ends but I would have to drill out the factory pickup point and put in bigger 1-1/8" crush tube. A little over kill but it will hold anything the LSJ ever hope to put out.

I can promise you one thing there will be a lot of attention applied to the new rear suspension once it gets rolling under its own power. Lots of new stuff to proof out.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #412, 09-02-2012 11:27 AM
      And yes, the clevis does pinch! pretty slick piece.



Bloozberry MSG #413, 09-02-2012 08:06 PM
      Just another thought: if your current trailing link design doesn't work, you don't have to resort to metal bushings/bearings. You could always return to the stock type links with polyurethane or delrin bushings. In fact you might find the solid links quite harsh once you hit the road, but time will tell. Good luck and keep the pictures coming.

coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #414, 09-04-2012 08:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

Not much has happened since the last post. I've been hobbled by an old spine injury and has kept me in a chair longer then I've wanted. Looking forward to some surgery this month and get back my mobility.

I've been really wanting to do some foam and fibor glassing sculpting on the front fenders to finish out the full IMSA look.



I hear ya on injuries, I've been sidelined for almost 6 weeks now with a broken tibia bone in my right leg, requiring a big old titanium nail be driven in and screwed into the bone, can't drive, can't walk, can't really do anything till at least the end of sept......totally have a new appreciation for people who live with handicaps for life. Good luck with your recovery.

Jer



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #415, 10-26-2012 09:48 AM
      My big fix is coming up this Monday. I'm getting a double handful of screws and rods to fuse 3 lumbar together in my lower back. I've been looking forward to this procedure a long time and can't wait to get back on my feet again in about 2-3 weeks.

I've been researching my list of engine mods and fab items to make the next time I have the sub-frame out and it's got me all excited about lugging out the hoist again. :D


When the engine is out:
1. Stage II injectors
2. Dual pass intercooler
3. Stage II pulley
4. Phenolic intake gaskets
5. Aluminum flywheel
6. Spec IIII clutch
7. New harness

When Subframe is out:
1. Finish trailing link mods
2. Finish exhaust mounts
3. Removable trailer hitch
4. Oil filter mount
5. Powder coat.



coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #416, 10-26-2012 10:17 AM
      Good luck on you're surgery, I hope it all goes well and you're back in action soon.

Jer


j bf1 (jbf1@hotmail.com) MSG #417, 08-10-2013 10:12 PM
      Hope your back is feeling better now. LMK if you make any progress? I'm considering ant Ecotec 2.0 turbo.



Inferno (infernoz24@hotmail.com) MSG #418, 09-17-2013 07:31 PM
      I can't believe how much I just read...... This is the most interesting and informative builds I have ever seen in all of the car sites I have ever been on. FANTASTIC!

zkhennings MSG #419, 11-12-2013 08:39 PM
      Re-read this thread for around the 20th time, I hope there will be updates in the future!

maccos MSG #420, 12-03-2013 06:41 PM
      Hey Guys, New to the forum here.
I have been watching this build for tips on my LNF ectotec build (although it is installed in a replica Ariel Atom I am building). I thought I would give back by passing on the information for my build for those that are interested in the LNF motor.
http://www.locostusa.com/fo...=36&t=14932&start=60
Also here is a website I started with the build blog and it also has a CAD model I created of the LNF engine for those who have CAD software, you can download it for free: www.modernkitcar.com
Thanks,
Scott


zkhennings MSG #421, 12-06-2013 01:42 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by maccos:

Hey Guys, New to the forum here.
I have been watching this build for tips on my LNF ectotec build (although it is installed in a replica Ariel Atom I am building). I thought I would give back by passing on the information for my build for those that are interested in the LNF motor.
http://www.locostusa.com/fo...=36&t=14932&start=60
Also here is a website I started with the build blog and it also has a CAD model I created of the LNF engine for those who have CAD software, you can download it for free: www.modernkitcar.com
Thanks,
Scott


Sweet Build!


akademikjeanius MSG #422, 12-28-2013 12:30 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by maccos:

Hey Guys, New to the forum here.
I have been watching this build for tips on my LNF ectotec build (although it is installed in a replica Ariel Atom I am building). I thought I would give back by passing on the information for my build for those that are interested in the LNF motor.
http://www.locostusa.com/fo...=36&t=14932&start=60
Also here is a website I started with the build blog and it also has a CAD model I created of the LNF engine for those who have CAD software, you can download it for free: www.modernkitcar.com
Thanks,
Scott


Firstly, welcome to the forum. Secondly, like previous poster said "sweet build!". Thirdly, thanks for resources shared for us Fiero enthusiasts to jumpstart our venture into the forced-induction Ecotecs.


maccos MSG #423, 01-07-2014 09:24 PM
      Thanks for the comments. I am working on getting an engine wiring harness diagram on the website so anyone who wants to put an LNF motor into any vehicle can do just that.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #424, 01-08-2014 09:10 AM
      I really like the LNF motor, wish they were more plentiful back in '07 when I started this thing. Now I can get one with a factory warranty for just a little more then what I paid for the LSJ drop out.

I do have a turbo setup for the LSJ, for later.



akademikjeanius MSG #425, 01-15-2014 02:58 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by maccos:

Thanks for the comments. I am working on getting an engine wiring harness diagram on the website so anyone who wants to put an LNF motor into any vehicle can do just that.


Awe-some!! Truly looking forward to that.


 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

I really like the LNF motor, wish they were more plentiful back in '07 when I started this thing. Now I can get one with a factory warranty for just a little more then what I paid for the LSJ drop out.

I do have a turbo setup for the LSJ, for later.


Who would you go through for purchasing them?


KillerFrogg (killerfrogg3@gmail.com) MSG #426, 01-16-2014 10:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by akademikjeanius:

Who would you go through for purchasing them?


You can get an LNF/LDK (same thing, just slight variations in mounts for different applications) from ZZP. Brand new, $3,000, with turbo.

So no risk of damage from the previous owner, but you also need the computer, wiring harness, trans, axles (from my reading on here the cobalt axles work as is with the fiero)

Personally I am just going to find a body-totaled SS'balt when I do my swap so I have everything I need then just part out what is left after I peel the engine and its supporting hardware out to recoup what I can.

You can make ALOT of power out of these little 2.0L beasts, I mean even stock at 260hp/260ft-lb that is a good bit more than enough for a daily driver Fiero. Even with just the GM stage 1 kit or what ever it is, you get a little boost in HP, but it really lets the torque out of the box.

But I know not all of our cars are just daily drivers


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #427, 01-17-2014 06:42 PM
      the cobalt axles from the turbo SS cars will not fit the fiero hubs .the LNF will bolt right up to the cavalier 2.2 eco 5 speed f23 and then you just use fiero axles .GM went heavy duty with all the turbo ss cars , larger wheel stud bolt pattern and different spline count on axles compared to the LSJ cars .so a wrecked cobalt SS will give you almost eveything you need but not quite .

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #428, 01-17-2014 07:20 PM
      The key feature is the f35 tranny, on the lsj versions the outer spline matched the fiero hub. I can not vouch for the lnf versions of the same transmission, but it would seem improbable they would make a change in outer spline unless warranty issues or production consolation forced a change.

Anybody got an lnf axle from a manual to try out on a fiero hub? Also didn't they go to a six speed?



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #429, 01-17-2014 11:26 PM
      went on one of the cobalt SS forums and found this : both supercharged and turbo cars use the f35 5 speed tranny .the tranny ends of both cars axles are the same .the lnf middle shaft is 34 mm dia. vs lsj 25 mm . the lnf at the hub is 32 mm 30 spline count .the lsj at the hub is 33 spline and 26.5 mm diameter .so no you cannot use lnf axles in a fiero hub .and the f35 is not known to be stronger than the f23 .it uses a jackshaft that helps reduce torque steer in a front drive car but does not affect any improvement in a rear wheel drive car .use an f23 and fiero axles and save yourself some work .anyway this is a great thread that i have been following a long time . hope it continues soon and i hope you are feeling better CC .

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #430, 01-18-2014 11:33 AM
      That makes sense to me. I went to a larger bearing hub from the Vue/Equinox theta platform. I would bet they did the same and dipped into the gm parts bin and used the meaty stuff from the heavier car.

There sure were a lot of complaints about axles with modded lsj cars.



coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #431, 01-20-2014 08:23 AM
      ccfiero : there was many problems, but keep in mind the target audience for the cobalt SS....mostly early 20's, not exactly known to baby their cars or know much more than what they've seen in a movie when it came to mod'ding cars. My 04 ION RL had many mods, made in about 275hp all on stock clutch and stock axles, the ability to keep the car from having excessive wheel hop meant if you were going to be needing new axles, clutch or transmission.........drag strips were not a friend of the cobalt SS or ION RL's.



kraelo (kraelo@gmail.com) MSG #432, 03-10-2014 03:35 PM
      Do you have copies of your templates for all your brackets and what parts you used?

I love your front suspension setup and I would like to duplicate it if possible and permissible.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #433, 03-11-2014 07:10 AM
      I have the templates for most of the parts but a few of them were frankensteins. But as you probably know what fits my setup may not fit yours that well, since its cut to fit, paint to match.

For sure you can duplicate anything you see here, thats why I posted all this for everybody.



jgetti (jgetti1@gmail.com) MSG #434, 06-11-2014 04:21 PM
      ccfiero,

I own a Cobalt SS turbo car. I recently had to replace the front wheel bearing, and they kept giving me one undersize (same as the regular Cobalts). Finally, I requested a wheel bearing for a G6, and that was the correct one.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #435, 06-11-2014 07:37 PM
      Cool! I was thinking the SS versions were just from the bigger platforms



maccos MSG #436, 03-13-2015 11:00 AM
      I noticed that on your non-driven hubs you are using a CV axle shaft the "preload" the hub bearings, which is typical for older vehicles, but I have determined that it is not necessary for these hubs.

I am using the same hub assemblies as you (from a Cobalt or Pontaic) and I have contacted SKF (bearing assembly manufacture) to double check with them to confirm that you do not need to pre-load them. Their product catalog also specifies that they are designed such that they are already pre-loaded from the factory. Take a look at the front wheel bearings of the pontaic solstice (which should be the same or similar hubs as yours, similar to what I am using) and you see they have no means of pre-loading the bearings.

This will save you some unsprung weight!

Here are some links for reference:
Another builder who came to the same conclusion: http://www.locostusa.com/fo...1270ffccc2&start=285
SKF torque guides ( refer to front hub torque of Pontiac Solstice, no torque required): http://www.skf.com/binary/79-66360/457377.pdf

www.modernkitcar.com


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #437, 03-13-2015 05:57 PM
      Your Absolutely right, If I used the solstice hubs. But I wanted to to change the bolt pattern to use the mustang wheels and brakes. The chevy Vue hubs are two piece and need the axle bolt the hold them together.



dskebo (dskebo@msn.com) MSG #438, 03-18-2015 11:58 PM
      The 04 Cadillac CTS has a sealed front bearing with 5x115 bolt circle. I think that bearing would fit your knuckles perfectly.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #439, 03-19-2015 05:39 AM
      Now that one I did not look at. The Vue hubs got the job because the axle fit the transmission too. I bet the caddy axle would not.



dskebo (dskebo@msn.com) MSG #440, 03-20-2015 06:35 PM
      No the Caddy is rear wheel drive but the front hubs are sealed and have the triangle mount like the front of yours.
They don't need the axle to hold them together which should help with the unsprung weight


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #441, 03-14-2019 03:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by paradigm:

Maybe I wasn't too clear, I wasn't thinking of actually using a strut, just the knuckle from a strut design. The knuckle has two holes at the top that allow you to design a bolt on piece that holds the upper ball joint for use with a double wishbone arrangement. There are many ways to use slugs, shims, reversible part designs, etc to easily move the upper ball joint around within the bolt on piece. Depending on the knuckle it may be difficult to get the desired caster, KPI, etc but at least having the ability to change may be better than nothing. Sorry everyone, I think I have hijacked this thread enough.




What application is this knuckle from?


fieroguru MSG #442, 03-14-2019 05:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
What application is this knuckle from?


Cobalt.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #443, 03-14-2019 09:39 PM
      Thanks!
Interdasting. I'll have to get one to play with. I didn't know they used pinch bolt ball joints.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #444, 03-22-2019 08:52 AM
      Cobalt ball joints have 20mm shanks.
Dustbuster minivan ball joints have 18mm shanks, but bolt into Fiero control arms.
Yes, the Cobalt uses a larger ball joint shank than the older minivans.
So maybe a Cobalt knuckle could be adapted via the use of a split sleeve around the dustbuster ball joint shank, but that's a bit klugey.