ECM upgrade (1227730) for stock 2.8
Topic started by: Darth Fiero, Date: 01-09-2007 02:26 PM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000088.html


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #1, 01-09-2007 02:26 PM
      Recently a friend of mine brought me his Fiero to have a swap done. He had a very high mileage stock 2.8 and 125-C and wanted me to swap in a lower mileage 2.8 and 440-T4 OD transmission. Not content with sticking with the stock 2.8 ECM, I convinced him to swap out ECMs during the swap as well. In short, it was an excellent choice!



The ECM that was used in this swap was the 1227730 unit which was used in many 1987-92 era GM cars. For this application, I elected to use the $88 code mask programming which was designed to be used in a 1990-92 Camaro/Firebird 3.1. The Camaro/Firebird 3.1 is very similar to the stock Fiero 2.8 including it's use of a distributor and iron-heads. With that being said, there were some significant differences between the two systems...

The 7730 ECM running $88 code mask does NOT use or need the 7th injector (cold start).
The 7730 ECM controls the coolant fan relay directly.
The 7730 ECM will interface with stock Fiero 2.8 ECM wiring harness. (although some modifications will be needed)
The 7730 ECM uses a knock sensor.
The 7730 ECM interfaces directly with the speed sensor which means changes can be made in the programming to calibrate the speedo without having to change out the plastic gears on the VSS sensor itself.
The 7730 ECM running the $88 code mask will NOT work with the stock Fiero 2.8 EGR valve. It is designed to work with the digital EGR valve used in the early-mid 90's era GM V6 cars. I went ahead and designed an adapter plate and had another Fiero friend make one up so we could use the digital EGR valve on the stock Fiero 2.8 y-pipe.



The biggest advantage to using the 7730 ECM in a Fiero application is not only more tunable options in the programming, but the drivability and response time of the engine improved significantly. Gone was the unstable idle characteristics of the stock 2.8 which some have said existed from the factory. Gone was the high idle flare upon startup. We quickly found out that using the 7730 ECM system on the stock 2.8 greatly improved it's drivability as well as throttle response and performance characteristics. Believe it or not, using the newer computer, even this stock 2.8 ran and acted like a new engine found in today's new cars! And because the 7th injector, fan switches, and vacuum-controlled EGR valve were no longer required, it also allowed us to clean up the wiring and vacuum lines on the stock 2.8 engine as well...



I think this is one of the most worthwhile upgrades for a stock (or even modded) 2.8. Obviously, it can also be used on 3.1 and 3.4 OHV swaps. Although if you are swapping in a newer 3.1 or 3.4 that has provisions for the DIS ignition system, I would recommend using the DIS as well. The 7730 ECM will work with the DIS ignition system if you use a different code mask (programming).

-ryan



darkhorizon MSG #2, 01-09-2007 04:31 PM
      Great project, I am sure alot of guys running 2.8's would love this. I was always confused by the fan switch, and the cold start injector, nice to see them gone i bet!

kwagner MSG #3, 01-09-2007 05:55 PM
      Anything that gets rid of some of the clutter of the engine bay, and increases engine responsiveness, is a good thing
Since the ECU is designed for a 3.1 in the case of the one you used, was any reprogramming necessary (changing fuel maps)?
Edit: one more question. How did you block off the vacuum line that goes between the egr solenoid and the throttle body?

[This message has been edited by kwagner (edited 01-09-2007).]

88White3.4GT MSG #4, 01-09-2007 06:55 PM
      wow, very cool project

Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #5, 01-09-2007 07:09 PM
      Thanks for posting here, I've already started to aquire the parts. -Jason

David DeVoe (marcia.david.devoe@sbcglobal.net) MSG #6, 01-09-2007 08:09 PM
      Im curious about the wire harness changes needed to accomodate the new ECM. Very interesting project, especially with the ongoing idle problem I have

BrewCheese (hyhy4u@hotmail.com) MSG #7, 01-09-2007 08:48 PM
      Very Cool! Do you have any more info on what exactly needes to be modded or changed?

Thanks,
Jason


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #8, 01-09-2007 09:08 PM
      It seems to me that this ought to resolve, once and for all, that old argument as to whether multec type injectors will work in a Fiero motor. (Some folks maintain that they won't.) Since the 7730 was designed to drive multecs, it'll also take care of that "issue".
I have been thinking about a 7730, ever since I read about this the other day.

Any chance on having the EGR plates made up?


Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #9, 01-10-2007 09:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:

It seems to me that this ought to resolve, once and for all, that old argument as to whether multec type injectors will work in a Fiero motor. (Some folks maintain that they won't.) Since the 7730 was designed to drive multecs, it'll also take care of that "issue".
I have been thinking about a 7730, ever since I read about this the other day.

Any chance on having the EGR plates made up?


Ryan ,
I'm in for the adapter for the egr if you think you can get it done. I pulled the one for the firebird that I got the ecm from, but I don't think I can make it work without modifing it alot (it will look like like crap). I'm in this for the long haul, this is such a great idea and I want to make it all work seemlessly. -Jason



3800superfast MSG #10, 01-10-2007 10:36 AM
      Very Nice work Ryan--Thanks for taking out the time for designing and posting it ....

Brian Lamberts (brianlamberts@gmail.com) MSG #11, 01-10-2007 11:10 AM
      Great writeup, going into my junkyard tool kit, so I can look for parts.

BobadooFunk (bobadoofunk@gmail.com) MSG #12, 01-10-2007 12:13 PM
      wow!! soemday ill do this myself! gonna fav* this thread! just gotta get it running first!!



86_IRM_TURBO (kerry.atwell@gm.com) MSG #13, 01-10-2007 01:19 PM
      It certainly sounds like it has Excellent potential for my 2.8 Turbo car.
I'm waiting for the details to spill out as well. I've already asked my
yard supplier to look for the ECM.

Thanks! Nice work!!!


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #14, 01-10-2007 02:03 PM
      Wow, so many questions...lets see if I can answer them all...

Tuning - Believe it or not there were quite a few changes required to the 3.1 programming to get it to work with the Fiero 2.8. It seems as though the stock Fiero 2.8 wanted a little more fuel and a little more timing than what was programmed for the 3.1 F-body engine. Although, some of that might be a result of the headers used on this engine as well as the bored out throttle body.

EGR Vacuum Connections - Vacuum caps were used to block off un-needed vac ports. I also installed late model GM electronic cruise control on this engine which allowed the removal of the vac reservoir and hard lines. The EVAP system did require the addition of a computer-controlled EVAP solenoid and some rerouting of vacuum lines for it.

ECM Wiring Changes - The 7730 ECM uses the same type of connectors as the stock Fiero 2.8 ECM. The only difference is the 7730 ECM uses a 3rd connector (yellow) and requires 2 additional grounds and some additional wiring circuits for the knock sensor, fan relay control, EGR, EVAP solenoid, and VSS input. All told, I only had to run 6 additional wires out to the engine from the computer to cover for these circuits. Everything else was able to be hooked up using existing circuits in the stock 2.8 harness. The 7730 ECM also mounts inside the Fiero using a stock, early 4cyl ECM mounting tray.

Multec Injectors - Multec injectors WILL work in a Fiero 2.8, even with the stock computer. There are different types of multec injectors tho. There are peak-and-hold type, which were only used in the Quad 4 as far as I know. There were high-imp type 12ohm units used in later model engines. And there were high-imp type 16ohm units used in late 80's, early 90's GM engines. The latter are a direct-replacement for stock Fiero injectors. In fact, I have seen the multec units in 88 Fiero 2.8's so that should be proof enough they do work. Of course the only thing one needs to watch out for is injector size. I believe the stock Fiero 2.8 injectors flow about 15 lb/hr. I think the multec's used in 3.1 V6's flow about 16 or 17lb/hr. Of course if you use a larger injector in your stock 2.8, you will need the chip reprogrammed to compensate.

EGR Plates - I have a design sitting on paper for the adapter. The one that was made for this project was made out of 1/2" thick aluminum. The most difficult part of the design is the passage that has to be bored into the surface that the DIG EGR mounts to in order to connect the 3-ports on the DIG EGR with the passage that leads to the EGR tube that feeds the intake. Therefore, some sort of mill would need to be used to make this plate. I would be willing to share my designs with anyone wishing to have a EGR plate made for their needs. PM me if interested.

EGR Usage - Of course, if you don't have emissions testing in your area, you don't need to hook up the EGR. It can be disabled in the chip programming.

Turbo Applications - While this computer could work in a turbo application, I think you would be better off using a 1227749 ECM running the $58 code mask (GMC Syclone/Typhoon 4.3 Turbo) modified to work in a Fiero 2.8 distributor application. If your engine has provisions for DIS ignition, I would suggest installing DIS and then using the 7730/7727 ECM running $8F code (Turbo Grand Prix 3.1)

-ryan



FieroVin (vin.latus@outlook.com) MSG #15, 01-10-2007 06:33 PM
      Sounds interesting. I picked up a 3.4 for my 87 GT from a 94 camaro and it has the DIS and egr components already. Hmmm...

TTT


Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #16, 01-10-2007 07:32 PM
      I think you should make a kit.

dratts (dratts2@gmail.com) MSG #17, 01-10-2007 08:07 PM
      I think that is the same unit that Ryan Hess programed for my N*. It must be a good all around unit.

Knight MSG #18, 01-11-2007 02:32 AM
      What engines does the 7730 run? If I install it to run my 2.8 stock engine. Can I get it reprogrammed to run a 3.4L with a distributor or a DIS (forced induction later)? How about a 3400 with forced induction later? How about a 3800SC Series II or III? Not sure which upgrade to do. I have two Fieros. An 86 SE that has some ignition issue, but runs (trouble shooting in progress. Hope to God the ECM is not the issue.) I have an 88 awaiting my choice of engine replacements as I spun a bearing racing on a course with a lot of turns; some short and some long sweepers. Both are currently 125c automatics. Will upgrade to one of the current electronically controlled autos at time of engine upgrade for both.

[This message has been edited by Knight (edited 01-11-2007).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #19, 01-11-2007 02:50 AM
      The 7730 was used by the factory on the following engines...

-2.0L 4cyl TBI DIS
-2.8 MFI V6 DIS
-3.1 MFI V6 DIS
-3.1 MFI V6 distributor
-5.0 TPI V8
-5.7 TPI V8

Those are the only ones I can think of right now. I do know for sure this ECM will not directly work with a 3800 or 3800 SC engine or any other Buick V6. The way the ignition timing and crank sensor signals are set up in the Buick engines are buick-specific and won't work with the "Chevy" 7730 ECM.

The 7730 ECM is virtually identical to the 1227727 ECM (which was used in the W-body cars) concerning board hardware; the only real difference between the two was the 7727 unit was designed as a weather-sealed unit so it could be placed in the engine compartment and the 7730 is not weather-sealed so it must be placed in a dry location such as inside the car.


Knight MSG #20, 01-11-2007 03:00 AM
      That 2.0L. Is that the one in the late '80s Sunfire and Cavalier?
How different are the 3.1 and Carmaro 3.4 compared to the 3100 and 3400. Were the 7730/7727 used on the aluminum headed 3.1?


F-I-E-R-O (andrew-rogers@stny.rr.com) MSG #21, 01-11-2007 07:01 AM
      I'd be willing to pay for beggining to end instructions on completing this project!



Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #22, 01-11-2007 07:57 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

The 7730 ECM also mounts inside the Fiero using a stock, early 4cyl ECM mounting tray.



Actually it's the 87-88 4 Cyl tray. But yea, In all reality, you could provide a "kit" with the third connector, explicit wiring instructions, the speedo adaptor circuit, the EGR and Fan and Knock sensor whip's, an ECM and a chip, burnt to match, and if a 3.4 engine is installed (or any engine with the crank sensor) an adaptor cable from the Distributor to the DIS (they use almost the same wiring anyway, just a different connector).


I've done this swap myself too, but I never went all the way to insure that all pieces of the puzzle were in place, So I never had good results.

One more little thing to add... it is possible, though it would need a lot of tuning, to run the 3.4 DOHC with exactly this configuration, and make it so it's compatible with boost. And it can be done with what is mostly a 2.8 Fiero harness!


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #23, 01-11-2007 11:31 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

That 2.0L. Is that the one in the late '80s Sunfire and Cavalier?
How different are the 3.1 and Carmaro 3.4 compared to the 3100 and 3400. Were the 7730/7727 used on the aluminum headed 3.1?



The 7730/7727 ECMs were used with the aluminum-headed 2.8's and 3.1's. The 7730 was used with the iron-head 3.1 in 90-92 Camaros and Firebirds.

The 3100 and 3400 engines have aluminum heads and roller camshafts. All 3400's, and later models of the 3100's had roller rocker arms. The "standard" aluminum-headed 2.8's and 3.1's did NOT have roller cams nor roller rocker arms. The 90-92 Camaro 3.1 is virtually identical to the Fiero 2.8; iron heads, standard flat-tappet cams and non-roller rocker arms. The 93-95 Camaro 3.4 SFI had iron heads and also did not have roller cams or roller rocker arms BUT it was set up for DIS ignition.

The 1st generation aluminum head 3.1 made about 135-140 rated hp.
The Camaro 3.4 SFI V6 only made 160hp.
The 3100 made 160-175hp depending on year.
The 3400 made 170-185hp depending on vehicle.

more info on GM engine specs can be found on my website at: http://dtcc.cz28.com/gminfo.htm

-ryan


Knight MSG #24, 01-11-2007 12:14 PM
      I'm getting excited at the possibility of putting a 3.4 or a 3400 with 4-speed auto. I want to upgrade my current ECM in my 86 2.8. and place an upgrade engine /transmission in my engineless 88.

PhatMax (e.knecht@comcast.net) MSG #25, 01-11-2007 12:17 PM
      I second the motion to make a kit to install this in a stock 2.8. or complete step by step instructions.

Knight MSG #26, 01-11-2007 03:03 PM
      I third that. Either for a kit to use a 7730 that is already obtained or to buy a 7730 or similar already modified with needed items to plug and play with instuctions and with option of EGR "kit".

87SEV6Reborn05 (crashdocs@gmail.com) MSG #27, 01-11-2007 05:01 PM
      Nice upgrade, better get me that ECM I ran across last week. awaiting another update

Mike Murphy (mike@hmsbins.com) MSG #28, 01-11-2007 05:10 PM
      Hey Darth! Good work. Now I know what I need to do with my 3.1 stroker. My son recently junked an 89 GP with a 3.1 so I guess I'll go to the yard and yank the ecm and tranny along with the DIS & egr. One thing that has constantly driven me nuts is the hunting idle on the damn thing. Sounds like this might be a good cure. Still won't be as much fun as my dohc 3.4 though.

See ya

Murf


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #29, 01-11-2007 07:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Mike Murphy:

Hey Darth! Good work. Now I know what I need to do with my 3.1 stroker. My son recently junked an 89 GP with a 3.1 so I guess I'll go to the yard and yank the ecm and tranny along with the DIS & egr. One thing that has constantly driven me nuts is the hunting idle on the damn thing. Sounds like this might be a good cure. Still won't be as much fun as my dohc 3.4 though.

See ya

Murf


Just remember that 7727 that was used in the 89 GP uses different type wiring terminals than what the 7730/stock Fiero 2.8 harness uses so extra work would be required to use a 7727 ECM vs. just getting a 7730 ECM.

As for the KIT question, I will look into it, but to be quite honest, I don't think there is going to be an easy plug-and-play solution. For one thing, there isn't much room in the stock ECM location in the Fiero for a conversion harness with connectors for both the new ECM and the Fiero harness. I could probably put together a repinning and wiring instruction sheet and post it on my website for download but anyone wishing to do this conversion would need to obtain their own 7730 ECM and connectors (with some wiring) and then do the necessary wiring and repinning work themselves. Unless of course they were willing to bring the car to my shop in which case I could do the conversion for a nominal fee.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-11-2007).]

oliver2245 (info@olivermarine.com) MSG #30, 01-11-2007 08:01 PM
      I to am interested in this up grade when do you think you will post it thanks

Falcon4 (falcon@falconfour.com) MSG #31, 01-11-2007 09:07 PM
      Hey, no cold start injector?? Awesome idea! I'd LOVE to see this turned into a "kit" as well. For those of us with practically zero car computer experience.

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #32, 01-11-2007 11:35 PM
      Ryan, have you got any experience with flex fuel ECM's? I'm wondering what automakers are using these days. I know GM uses a fuel composition sensor too.

PhatMax (e.knecht@comcast.net) MSG #33, 01-12-2007 08:20 AM
      I say post away on the wiring pin out and instructions. Also post what parts are used and from what cars...

jetman (dangerkitty@wideopenwest.com) MSG #34, 01-12-2007 09:13 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by F-I-E-R-O:
I'd be willing to pay for beggining to end instructions on completing this project!


I would consider purchasing a kit for my 1986 2.8 with 4-speed that has the updated ECM , EGR bracket, pins and connectors with a project instruction manual with exact part numbers for the EGR and knock sensor.

Sure like the idea of improved performance from the cold idle stand point. This sounds like once you have it all installed that you would never have to fuss with again.

Ryan, has your customers gas mileage and or emissions improved? Any comments from your customer that you can pass along to us please?

Outstanding post!



rvalmore (rvalmore@nycap.rr.com) MSG #35, 01-12-2007 12:46 PM
      Darth
Is this the same type of adapter as you used?

These adapters are being sold off the 60v6 website.
http://60degreev6.com/store/index.php?act=viewP...


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #36, 01-12-2007 12:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by jetman:

Ryan, has your customers gas mileage and or emissions improved? Any comments from your customer that you can pass along to us please?



The owner picked up the car and drove it straight home to Michigan and put it into storage until spring. He did call and tell me that, according to his digital fuel gauge and mileage calculations, he got 35 mpg on the trip. Remember, that's using the 4-speed auto OD trans making the engine only turn about 2200rpm @ 70mph. So it's hard to say whether or not the ECM swap contributed to increased fuel economy or not. I can tell you that the 7730 running the $88 code mask DOES have highway mode fuel (lean cruise).


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #37, 01-12-2007 12:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by rvalmore:

Darth
Is this the same type of adapter as you used?

These adapters are being sold off the 60v6 website.
http://60degreev6.com/store/index.php?act=viewP...



The one I had made looks similar to that but I don't think they are the same. The one you have pictured appears to be meant for use only on 3100 and 3400 engines and doesn't mention anything about using a stock Fiero Y-pipe. The adapter I designed and had made bolts tot he stock Fiero EGR block/y-pipe and allows a digital EGR to be bolted onto it.


rvalmore (rvalmore@nycap.rr.com) MSG #38, 01-12-2007 12:56 PM
      I see. Just thought I'd ask in case it would work for someone looking to do this right away.

Fastback 86 MSG #39, 01-12-2007 07:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Falcon4:

Hey, no cold start injector?? Awesome idea! I'd LOVE to see this turned into a "kit" as well. For those of us with practically zero car computer experience.


Forget it, dude. You even look at the emissions system on an California car wrong and you'll fail smog. Much as this upgrade would probably help emissions, it'll never fly in this state.


Knight MSG #40, 01-12-2007 11:05 PM
      I was wondering. What would be a cost estimate of this upgrade. Even better would be a parts/supplies list with estimated prices off to the side. Also, Darth, would you be willing to modify a 7730 with the necessary wires & connectors (with extra long wiring to cut to fit) if I sent one to you and how much would you charge. Also, each time I upgrade my engine, how do I modify the ECM software or do I need to send it back to you. If I do need to send it back to you for reprogramming, what info would you need to properly tune it. Oh yeah...how much besides shipping would you charge for reprogramming each time?

[This message has been edited by Knight (edited 01-12-2007).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #41, 01-13-2007 02:42 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

I was wondering. What would be a cost estimate of this upgrade. Even better would be a parts/supplies list with estimated prices off to the side. Also, Darth, would you be willing to modify a 7730 with the necessary wires & connectors (with extra long wiring to cut to fit) if I sent one to you and how much would you charge. Also, each time I upgrade my engine, how do I modify the ECM software or do I need to send it back to you. If I do need to send it back to you for reprogramming, what info would you need to properly tune it. Oh yeah...how much besides shipping would you charge for reprogramming each time?



Ok, lets see if I can put something together off the top of my head. For some of the following prices, assume used parts purchased from a salvage yard...

-7730 ECM incl V6 mem-cal, wiring connectors, and some wiring - $50-$75 used
(if no V6 mem-cal is included with the ECM, one would need to be purchased - approx $65 from gmpartsdirect.com)

-Knock sensor, new - about $35

-Custom chip programming done by me - $45

Above is the absolute minimum you would need to purchase to pull this swap off less EGR hookup. If you wanted to hook the EGR up and make it functional, you would need to obtain/purchase the EGR, EGR adapter plate, wiring connector for the EGR, and extra wiring to run inside the car for the EGR. Again, you DO NOT need the EGR unless you have emissions testing in your area; it can be deleted in the chip program.

Now concerning the wiring, it is a pretty "simple" swap. I would be willing to put together a write-up and provide it to anyone who wants it so they could do the conversion at their end. This conversion is NOT going to require much soldering/rewiring at all. Most of what's involved is repinning the ECM connectors which you would do 1 at a time; so it would not be difficult, just time consuming. Some soldering and splicing would be required both inside the car and in the engine compartment but what is required is minimal.

Again, as far as a 100% plug-and-play kit; I have given some thought to this and it is going to be very difficult if not impossible to put something together that would fit in the space constraints inside the Fiero where the factory ECM resides. It would be far easier (and cheaper) to just repin/modify an existing Fiero harness instead of trying to put some sort of plug-and-play kit together.


Regarding your question concerning my custom chip tuning service, please PM or email me for details on that.

-ryan

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-13-2007).]

Knight MSG #42, 01-13-2007 03:03 AM
      Please yes. Send me the info on the swap. Pictures if at all possible. I sometimes have a hard time visualizing anything. I am currently looking for parts on e-bay for this upgrade. PM me or send to knight_@cox.net please sir.
BTW, thank you so much for all the help you are giving me. You are definitely due a + once I reach 30 posts.


JazzMan (jazzman@fierocentral.com) MSG #43, 01-13-2007 02:13 PM
      I, too, would be interested in info on this. It will probably be this summer before I can actually start proceeding, but would like the info and my knowledge to be complete before starting the project.

James


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #44, 01-13-2007 02:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

Please yes. Send me the info on the swap. Pictures if at all possible. I sometimes have a hard time visualizing anything. I am currently looking for parts on e-bay for this upgrade. PM me or send to knight_@cox.net please sir.
BTW, thank you so much for all the help you are giving me. You are definitely due a + once I reach 30 posts.


email will be on it's way shortly concerning the chip reprogramming...

As far as the instructions go, yes I will include some pics to help you visualize what needs to be done and what you will need to do it.

-ryan



Knight MSG #45, 01-13-2007 05:23 PM
      Correct me if I am wrong. From what I have found out the following is true:
*The only difference between the 7727 and the 7730 is that the 7727 is 'weatherproofed' to be used in the engine compartment. If this is true, are the connector plugs identical?
*The only difference between the 7730 and the 7749 (Turbo 4.3 Syclone/Typhoon) is the 7749 is missing one quad driver and has additional injector driver. Are the connector harness plugs the same?
*The EPROMs are the same between all three. Two EPROMs are used: 27C128 16K * 8 or 27C256 32K * 8. Does that mean that one is a 16K, 8 bit processor and one is a 32K 8 bit processor? Or am I reading it wrong? What is the rel world difference between the two in terms of programing and function/abilities?
*The 7730 can replace the 7170 used in the Fiero with minimal modifications.
*The 7730 was placed in an "underhood case" for use in the McLarren 3.1L Turbo Grand Prix (Called the 7727)

Now since the 3.1 turbo uses a a 7727 (7730 encased), is there any real advantage to using a 7749 for a turbo application 3400? Is the only benefits to the 7749 the ability to control an additional injector? What is a quad driver? Is it a fuel injection driver and if so is that used for the 3.1 turbo?

Sorry for all the questions.

Thank you 81tta and Darth Fiero for the info and sites that have helped me so fa. I am so grateful to everybody that is helping me figure out how to upgrade my 2.8 to a 3400 with eventually a turbo. I am so electrically challenged!


Knight MSG #46, 01-13-2007 05:29 PM
      The above post by me is also from my thread http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/079675.html.

I wanted to add that I checked out the schematics on the 7730 link at http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/p4xref.html#1227730 and it pulls up the 7749 schematic. The 7727 link does the same. Are these the same boards?


Capitol City Fiero (capitolcityfieros@gmail.com) MSG #47, 01-13-2007 06:40 PM
      Ryan:

You got a lot of press on my swap, just a follow up on the car:

440T4 2000rpm @70mph
starts good with no cold start injection even below 20 degrees
idle is at a steady at 700rpm
car runs strong

mpg is 28 city and 35 hwy
car runs on 87 octane fuel as well

440T4 seems to have a final drive of about 284

again thanks Ryan, we love the upgrades

well worth the money for anyone who has a stock 2.8 3 speed automatic

[This message has been edited by Capitol City Fiero (edited 01-13-2007).]

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #48, 01-13-2007 07:46 PM
      I
 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

Correct me if I am wrong. From what I have found out the following is true:
*The only difference between the 7727 and the 7730 is that the 7727 is 'weatherproofed' to be used in the engine compartment. If this is true, are the connector plugs identical?
*The only difference between the 7730 and the 7749 (Turbo 4.3 Syclone/Typhoon) is the 7749 is missing one quad driver and has additional injector driver. Are the connector harness plugs the same?
*The EPROMs are the same between all three. Two EPROMs are used: 27C128 16K * 8 or 27C256 32K * 8. Does that mean that one is a 16K, 8 bit processor and one is a 32K 8 bit processor? Or am I reading it wrong? What is the rel world difference between the two in terms of programing and function/abilities?
*The 7730 can replace the 7170 used in the Fiero with minimal modifications.
*The 7730 was placed in an "underhood case" for use in the McLarren 3.1L Turbo Grand Prix (Called the 7727)

Now since the 3.1 turbo uses a a 7727 (7730 encased), is there any real advantage to using a 7749 for a turbo application 3400? Is the only benefits to the 7749 the ability to control an additional injector? What is a quad driver? Is it a fuel injection driver and if so is that used for the 3.1 turbo?

Sorry for all the questions.

Thank you 81tta and Darth Fiero for the info and sites that have helped me so fa. I am so grateful to everybody that is helping me figure out how to upgrade my 2.8 to a 3400 with eventually a turbo. I am so electrically challenged!


There is at least one pin difference between the 730 and 727 and I believe it involves the wastegate solenoid as discussed on the 60 degree forum in a post on adding a patch to the TunerproRT software to allow wideband O2 datalogging. The 727 has four plugs instead of the 730s two. Now that I think about it, I may ditch the 727 harness I've nearly completed and opt for the 730 once I compare the wiring diagram to the Fieros since it is capable of running the TGP code. As for the epromms I don't believe they are exactly interchangeable as far as exchanging 128 Kb with 256. I know you can use the higher speed in the lower speed application but I don't believe it will work properly in the opposite configuration. Someone with more knowledge of the specifics can clarify.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #49, 01-13-2007 08:37 PM
      Ok, lets clarify some things here...

 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

Correct me if I am wrong. From what I have found out the following is true:
*The only difference between the 7727 and the 7730 is that the 7727 is 'weatherproofed' to be used in the engine compartment. If this is true, are the connector plugs identical?


No, the two computers use different connectors AND different wiring terminals.

 
quote

*The only difference between the 7730 and the 7749 (Turbo 4.3 Syclone/Typhoon) is the 7749 is missing one quad driver and has additional injector driver. Are the connector harness plugs the same?


True about the internal differences between the 7730 and 7749. I believe the connectors are identical.

 
quote

*The EPROMs are the same between all three. Two EPROMs are used: 27C128 16K * 8 or 27C256 32K * 8. Does that mean that one is a 16K, 8 bit processor and one is a 32K 8 bit processor? Or am I reading it wrong? What is the rel world difference between the two in terms of programing and function/abilities?


From what I have heard, most of the same code masks can be used in all 3 computers; I don't think there is a difference in processing power between the computers. All 3 computers use the same type mem-cal. The Syclone/Typhon 4.3L Turbo uses a 27C128 chip. The 7730/7727's use a 27C256 chip. All 3 computers WILL WORK with the 27SF512 flash memory chip. You just have to offset the start of device address to the correct setting when programming the 27SF512 flash memory chip for use in these applications.

 
quote

*The 7730 was placed in an "underhood case" for use in the McLarren 3.1L Turbo Grand Prix (Called the 7727)


Concerning internal hardware, the 7727 and 7730 are pretty much identical. The only difference besides the casing is the connector design and wiring terminals (because they have to be sealed to the connectors). You cannot use the Fiero wiring terminals with the 7727 ECM; but they will work with the 7730 ECM.

 
quote

Now since the 3.1 turbo uses a a 7727 (7730 encased), is there any real advantage to using a 7749 for a turbo application 3400? Is the only benefits to the 7749 the ability to control an additional injector? What is a quad driver? Is it a fuel injection driver and if so is that used for the 3.1 turbo?



A quad driver is nothing more than a controlled output (used for controlling an electric fan, EVAP solenoid, indicator lamp on the dash, etc). The 7749 ECM was also used on early Quad 4 and 87-90 Sunbird 2.0L Turbo engines which I think used Peak-and-Hold injectors (low impedence). The only reason why I brought up the 7749 is because it was used in the 4.3L Turbo Syclone/Typhoon applications which use a distributor; and it is this code mask you would probably want to use in a turbo 2.8 application. (FWIW, I am posting wiring diagrams and pinouts of the Sy/Ty ECM to my website as we speak). From what I have heard, the Sy/Ty [$58 code mask] can be used in a 7727/7730 ECM without any problems (although I haven't personally tried it).


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #50, 01-13-2007 08:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

I may ditch the 727 harness I've nearly completed and opt for the 730 once I compare the wiring diagram to the Fieros since it is capable of running the TGP code.


The 7730 ECM will run the TGP Code. HOWEVER, the TGP code will ONLY work with DIS ignition system. (you probably already know this, but I just want to clarify it for the rest of the readers)

 
quote

As for the epromms I don't believe they are exactly interchangeable as far as exchanging 128 Kb with 256. I know you can use the higher speed in the lower speed application but I don't believe it will work properly in the opposite configuration. Someone with more knowledge of the specifics can clarify.


There isn't a speed difference between the 128 and 256 EPROM chips. It's the size that is different. The 27C128 chip holds 16kb of info and the 27C256 chip holds 32kb of info. The 27C512/27SF512 chips hold 64kb of info. Concerning these 4 chips, a larger sized chip can be used in an application that calls for a smaller program. (IE: a 27C256 chip can be used in an application that originally used a 27C128 prom chip). Read my previous post concerning programming start address offsets when trying to do this.



x-thumpr-x (xthumprx@fieronut.me) MSG #51, 01-14-2007 11:28 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

I'm getting excited at the possibility of putting a 3.4 or a 3400 with 4-speed auto. I want to upgrade my current ECM in my 86 2.8. and place an upgrade engine /transmission in my engineless 88.



If you plan on dropping in a 3400, you will need to reroute the complete harness for the motor. We've done two 3400 swaps and using the 7730 ecm for our set-up and wroks just great. I've dyno'd at 175hp and the wheels. Have a few ideas to open it up a little more while still N/A. I'm sure Darth would be able to program a chip for you no problem. I have a friend that did mine, he's used to put 3400's in J-bodies. Also, you don't want the tranny that comes with the 3400, it's electronic controlled, try to find a 4T60 that uses a kick-down cable. Mines a 5 speed, so a little less wiring to do.

My 3400 install


2nd swap which uses stock 2.8 timing cover and accesories.
This images is larger than 102400 bytes. Click to view.

Nice work on the upgrade Darth, already have someone that might be interested in doing this. Must add this to my fav also.






Knight MSG #52, 01-14-2007 04:38 PM
      Thanks guys. Very helpful.
The 3400 won't run an electronic transmission? Crap! I wanted a strong transmission that could handle the torque and was planning on a 4T65e. Can a 4T60 be beefed up with 4T65e internals?
And that 3400 install -- DAMN that is what I am talking about. I want to have the intake and valve covers painted red like your second picture. Please explain about rerouting the engine harness.


Cajun (mvizina@cox.net) MSG #53, 01-14-2007 05:32 PM
      Darth,

Is it correct to assume the 7730 ECM upgrade with work with a 95 Camaro 3.4 engine that I'm currently installing into my 86GT with OD 4-speed auto transmission. The 3.4 will be a hydrid, 3.4 displacement & 2.8 heads, intake and ignition system, etc. If that is the case, the 7730 ECM upgrade will work with the engine upgrad I'm also interested in doing the upgarde.

Thanks for you work on the subject and provide the group the information.

Regards,
Mike


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #54, 01-14-2007 05:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

Thanks guys. Very helpful.
The 3400 won't run an electronic transmission? Crap! I wanted a strong transmission that could handle the torque and was planning on a 4T65e. Can a 4T60 be beefed up with 4T65e internals?
And that 3400 install -- DAMN that is what I am talking about. I want to have the intake and valve covers painted red like your second picture. Please explain about rerouting the engine harness.


The 3400 V6 will work with the 4T65-E transmission but you must use an OBD-2 computer (99-up), or use an aftermarket TCM (transmission control module). The 7730 ECM does NOT have the ability to control an electronic transmission.

The 440-T4/4T60 transmissions can accept some internal upgrades, but it is unclear if they can be built as strong as a 4T65-E can be. How much power is your 3400 engine going to be making?



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #55, 01-14-2007 05:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Cajun:

Darth,

Is it correct to assume the 7730 ECM upgrade with work with a 95 Camaro 3.4 engine that I'm currently installing into my 86GT with OD 4-speed auto transmission. The 3.4 will be a hydrid, 3.4 displacement & 2.8 heads, intake and ignition system, etc. If that is the case, the 7730 ECM upgrade will work with the engine upgrad I'm also interested in doing the upgarde.

Thanks for you work on the subject and provide the group the information.

Regards,
Mike


The 7730 ECM will work with any pushrod V6 PFI engine. Use of a distributor or DIS ignition system will determine what code mask (programming) you must use. The programming can be adjusted to work with a wide range of mods you install on the engine. The 7730 ECM will work with a 440-T4/4T60 non-electronic auto OD transmission.


Knight MSG #56, 01-15-2007 02:15 AM
      I am hoping for 400+. The members on 60degree6.com were discussing bending a crank beyond that. I am going to look into a bearing cradle to prevent this and improved oiling as one episode was blamed on spinning a rod bearing. I was hoping to do a paddle shift conversion using an aftermarket TCM and a kit. Just can't remember the link.

[This message has been edited by Knight (edited 01-15-2007).]

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #57, 01-15-2007 06:58 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

I am hoping for 400+. he members on 60degree6.com were discussing bending a crank beyond that. I am going to look into a bearing cradle to prevent this and improved oiling as one episode was blamed on spinning a rod bearing. I was hoping to do a paddle shift conversion using an aftermarket TCM and a kit. Just can't remember the link.


If you think there will be a problem with crank strength some of the 3500 V6s have steel cranks that can be turned down to the proper throw diameter, look for the numbers 7484 stamped on the end of the crank snout to know for sure that's what the engine has without having to do much more than remove the harmonic balancer retaining bolt. If you plan on turbocharging it would be easier to use the entire short block if the compression ratio will be in the range you would like. It will not be as low as the cast iron heads on the 3400 would be since the 3500 heads have a slighly larger combustion chamber than what's found on the 3400. The short block accepts a distributor also.

The late model fwd blocks have substantial main bearing reinforcement via the sidebolts through the oil pan and the windage tray bolted to the caps.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 01-15-2007).]

Knight MSG #58, 01-15-2007 03:58 PM
      What are the differences between the 3500 non-VVT and the 3400. Will the 3500 replace the 3400. I know that the 3900VVT and de-stroked 3500VVT are a different engine than the 3500 non-VVT. Can't remember if its both the block and heads. I just don't want to deal yet with all the computer and electronic issues that have yet to be fully dealt with for the latest GM V6 engines. Someone on 60degree6 has a cable conversion for the 3500's drive by wire throttle. I think it is mentioned in the thread about a 3500 head on a 3400 short block hybrid.

ohio86se (rick44314@gmail.com) MSG #59, 01-15-2007 09:18 PM
      I just knew that was your car .......hello Bob

 
quote
Originally posted by Capitol City Fiero:

Ryan:

You got a lot of press on my swap, just a follow up on the car:

440T4 2000rpm @70mph
starts good with no cold start injection even below 20 degrees
idle is at a steady at 700rpm
car runs strong

mpg is 28 city and 35 hwy
car runs on 87 octane fuel as well

440T4 seems to have a final drive of about 284

again thanks Ryan, we love the upgrades

well worth the money for anyone who has a stock 2.8 3 speed automatic





Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #60, 01-16-2007 01:12 AM
      Haven't had much time to put togther a rewiring instruction sheet because I am knee-deep in the next swap. I WILL get to it at some point and will post it to my website when it is ready. Might be a couple of weeks tho.

-ryan


Knight MSG #61, 01-17-2007 02:23 AM
      Anybody have a spare 7730 lying around...like in a corner...on a shelf...in a garage...in a car...

FieroVin (vin.latus@outlook.com) MSG #62, 01-17-2007 07:28 AM
      Try Ebay, I found a few there.



Capitol City Fiero (capitolcityfieros@gmail.com) MSG #63, 01-18-2007 05:18 AM
      Ryan time for a bump..........................

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #64, 01-18-2007 07:36 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

What are the differences between the 3500 non-VVT and the 3400. Will the 3500 replace the 3400. I know that the 3900VVT and de-stroked 3500VVT are a different engine than the 3500 non-VVT. Can't remember if its both the block and heads. I just don't want to deal yet with all the computer and electronic issues that have yet to be fully dealt with for the latest GM V6 engines. Someone on 60degree6 has a cable conversion for the 3500's drive by wire throttle. I think it is mentioned in the thread about a 3500 head on a 3400 short block hybrid.


The 3500 has a better flowing intake system including the heads which many of the fwd 3400 guys are swaping their top end for. It also has larger diameter crank pins to stiffen the crank, one oil squirter for pistons #5 & 6 and 5.9" rods along with a few other minor external changes that should prove it to be overall stronger than the 3400 with a question mark for the pistons since the pin is moved closer to the top. Who knows GM may have used forged pistons in it like those found in the 3.6 DOHC motor found in the front wheel drive vehicles now as documented on their site. It's not likely but then again they also stated the steel crank was reserved for the 3500 V6 SUVs and I discovered personally on two occassions that was not the case in engines from a 04 Malibu and 05 G6 with the 3500.



timgray (timgray.geo@yahoo.com) MSG #65, 01-18-2007 07:51 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

Thanks guys. Very helpful.
The 3400 won't run an electronic transmission? Crap! I wanted a strong transmission that could handle the torque and was planning on a 4T65e. Can a 4T60 be beefed up with 4T65e internals?
And that 3400 install -- DAMN that is what I am talking about. I want to have the intake and valve covers painted red like your second picture. Please explain about rerouting the engine harness.


you can get a controller to run a 4t65e in your fiero for less than $800.00 and it gives you options that you would want on a strip and possibly street. putting an electronic tranny is easy if it bolts up and you can get axles.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 01-18-2007).]

timgray (timgray.geo@yahoo.com) MSG #66, 01-18-2007 07:56 AM
      How about tuneability? the fiero ECM has lots of info out there to get a guy into chip modding quite easy, how much info is out there for this newer ECM and chipset? Do you use TunerCat with it easily or do you use somethign else?


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #67, 01-18-2007 02:35 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by timgray:

How about tuneability? the fiero ECM has lots of info out there to get a guy into chip modding quite easy, how much info is out there for this newer ECM and chipset? Do you use TunerCat with it easily or do you use somethign else?


I use tunercat software for both ECMs. From what I have seen, the OE Fiero 2.8 computers have much less items that can be tuned than the 7730 system. Below are some examples of what can be changed in both ECMs using the Tunercat software...

 
quote
85 Fiero 2.8 ECM

ECM Switch Parameters
Sync. Mode Closed Throttle Fuel
Transmission Type (X = Manual)
2 Bar MAP Sensor Present
Knock Sensor Enable (X = Enabled)
EGR System Present (0 = Enabled)
EGR System Diagnostic Enable (Error 32)
MAP Sensor High Diag Enable (Error 33)
MAP Sensor Low Diag Enable (Error 34)
Knock Diagnostic Enable (Error 43)
O2 Sensor Lean Diag. Enable (Error 44)
O2 Sensor Rich Diag. Enable (Error 45)

ECM Constants
Spark Reference Angle
Cool. Comp. Spark Advance Bias
Extended Spark RPM Slope
EGR Spark Advance Correction Bias
Knock Retard Per Test Loop
Delay for Knock Retard Recovery
Max Allowable Knock Retard
Base Pulse Constant
Min. Async Injector Pulse Width
Max. Async Injector Pulse Width
Minimum Coolant Temp. For Closed Loop
Closed Loop Delay Timer
Sync Fuel Mode Enable P.W. Threshold
Sync Fuel Mode Disable P.W. Threshold
Cold Engine AFR Coolant Temp Threshold
Crank AFR Decay Scale Factor
Minimum BLM
Maximum BLM
Stochiometeric Air Fuel Ratio
Power Enrich. Enable RPM Threshold
Power Enrich. Enable Delta TPS Thresh.
Power Enrich. Mode AFR
Power Enrich Enable Primary TPS Thresh.
P. E. Enable Primary TPS Thresh. Hyster.
P. E. Enable Secondary %TPS Threshold
Power Enrich Enable Primary MAP Thresh.
Power Enrich Enable Secondary MAP Thresh
Power Enrich Enable Coolant Temp Thresh
Accel Enrich Enable Delta MAP Threshold
Accel. Enrich. Enable Delta TPS Theshold
TPS Thresh. for 2X Delta MAP A.E. Thresh
TPS Thresh for 4X Delta MAP/TPS AE Contr
Decel Enlean Enable Delta MAP Threshold
Decel Enlean Enable TPS Threshold
DFCO Enable RPM Limit
DFCO Disable RPM Limit
Decel Fuel Cutoff (DFCO) Rate
DFCO Enable Speed Threshold
DFCO Disable Speed Threshold
DFCO Enable %TPS Threshold
DFCO Enable MAP Threshold
DFCO Enable MAP Threshold Hysteresis
Clear Flood %TPS Threshold
Clear Flood AFR
Desired Idle RPM in Park/Neutral
Idle RPM Adder For A/C On
EGR Enable Coolant Temp. Threshold
EGR Enable %TPS Threshold
EGR Disable %TPS Threshold
EGR Enable Vacuum Threshold
EGR Disable Vacuum Threshold
EGR Diagnostic Upper Duty Cycle Limit
TCC Lock Speed Threshold
TCC Unlock Speed Threshold
Max. Positive Delta TPS For TCC Enabled
Max. Negative Delta TPS For TCC Enabled
TCC Low MPH Coast Load Limit
TCC High MPH Coast Load Limit
TCC Coast Load Limit High/Low MPH Thresh
TCC Coast Load Limit Hysteresis
TCC Enable Coolant Temp. Threshold
TCC Lockup Delay
Fuel Cutoff Engine Speed
Fuel Resume Engine Speed
Fuel Cutoff Speed
Fuel Resume Speed
A/C Disable %TPS Threshold
PROM ID
N/V Ratio for 5th Gear
N/V Ratio for 4th Gear
N/V Ratio for 3rd Gear
N/V Ratio for 2nd Gear
N/V Ratio for 1st Gear
RPM Tolerance for 5th Gear
RPM Tolerance for 4th Gear
RPM Tolerance for 3rd Gear
RPM Tolerance for 2nd Gear
RPM Tolerance for 1st Gear
Shift Light Delay Time (1st Gear)
Shift Light Delay Time (2nd - 5th Gear)
Shift Light Enable RPM (4th -> 5th)
Shift Light Disable MAP (4th -> 5th)
Shift Light Enable RPM (3rd -> 4th)
Shift Light Disable MAP (3rd -> 4th)
Shift Light Enable RPM (2nd -> 3rd)
Shift Light Disable MAP (2nd -> 3rd)
Shift Light Enable RPM (1st -> 2nd)
Shift Light Disable MAP (1st -> 2nd)

Tables
ECM Switch Table
ECM Constant Table
Main Spark Advance Vs. RPM Vs. MAP
Cool Compensation Spark Vs Vacuum
EGR Spark Advance Correction Vs. %EGR
Power Enrich Spark Advance Vs RPM
Cold Engine AFR Vs. Coolant Temp. Vs. MAP
Crank Air Fuel Ratio Vs. Coolant Temp.
Time-Out Run AFR Correction Vs. Coolant Temp.
%Volumetric Efficiency Vs. RPM Vs. MAP
%Vol. Efficiency Adder Vs. RPM
Accel Enrich. Delta MAP Factor Vs. Delta MAP
Accel Enrich. Delta TPS Factor Vs. Delta TPS
Accel. Enrich Temp. Correction Vs. Cool. Temp.
Decel Enlean Temp. Correction Vs. Cool. Temp.
Decel Enlean Delta MAP Factor Vs. Delta MAP
Decel Enlean. Delta TPS Factor Vs. Delta TPS
Base Pulse Constant Vs. EGR Duty Cycle
BPW Battery Voltage Correction Vs. Battery Voltage
Injector PW Correction Vs. Battery Voltage
Low Pulse Width Injector Offset Vs. BPW
MAT BPW Correction Factor Vs. MAT
Desired Idle RPM Vs. Battery Voltage
Fast Idle IAC Position Offset Vs. Coolant Temp.
Power Steering Stall IAC Position Offset Vs. Baro
%EGR Vs. Vacuum Vs. RPM
TCC Upper Load Limit Vs. MPH
TCC Lower Load Limit Vs. MPH
Knock Attack Rate Vs. RPM
Knock Retard Recovery Rate Vs. RPM
Shift Light Enable RPM Vs. %TPS (All Gears)


 
quote
86-88 Fiero 2.8 ECM

ECM Switch Parameters
Sync. Mode Closed Throttle Fuel
Transmission Type (X = Manual)
2 Bar MAP Sensor Present
Speed Sensor Diag. (Error 24)
Wastegate Overboost Diag. (Error 31)
EGR Diagnostic (Error 32)
O2 Sensor Lean Diagnostic (Error 44)
Knock Sensor Diagnostic (Error 43)
O2 Sensor Rich Diagnostic (Error 45)

ECM Constants
Spark Reference Angle
Cool. Comp. Spark Advance Bias
Extended Spark RPM Slope
EGR Spark Advance Correction Bias
Base Pulse Constant
Min. Async Injector Pulse Width
Max. Async Injector Pulse Width
Minimum Coolant Temp. For Closed Loop
Closed Loop Delay Timer
Sync Fuel Mode Enable P.W. Threshold
Sync Fuel Mode Disable P.W. Threshold
Cold Engine AFR Coolant Temp Threshold
Crank AFR Decay Scale Factor
Minimum BLM
Maximum BLM
Stochiometeric Air Fuel Ratio
Power Enrich. Enable RPM Threshold
Power Enrich Enable Primary TPS Thresh.
P. E. Enable Primary TPS Thresh. Hyster.
P. E. Enable Secondary %TPS Threshold
Power Enrich Enable Primary MAP Thresh.
Power Enrich Enable Secondary MAP Thresh
Power Enrich. Enable Delta TPS Thresh.
Power Enrich Enable Coolant Temp Thresh
Power Enrich. Mode AFR
Accel Enrich Enable Delta MAP Threshold
Accel. Enrich. Enable Delta TPS Theshold
TPS Thresh. for 2X Delta MAP A.E. Thresh
TPS Thresh for 4X Delta MAP/TPS AE Contr
Decel Enlean Enable Delta MAP Threshold
DFCO Enable RPM Limit
DFCO Disable RPM Limit
Decel Fuel Cutoff (DFCO) Rate
Decel Enlean Enable TPS Threshold
DFCO Enable Speed Threshold
DFCO Disable Speed Threshold
DFCO Enable %TPS Threshold
DFCO Enable MAP Threshold
DFCO Enable MAP Threshold Hysteresis
Clear Flood %TPS Threshold
Clear Flood AFR
Desired Idle RPM in Park/Neutral
Idle RPM Adder For A/C On
EGR Enable Coolant Temp. Threshold
EGR Enable %TPS Threshold
EGR Disable %TPS Threshold
EGR Enable Vacuum Threshold
EGR Disable Vacuum Threshold
EGR Diagnostic Upper Duty Cycle Limit
TCC Lock Speed Threshold
TCC Unlock Speed Threshold
Max. Positive Delta TPS For TCC Enabled
Max. Negative Delta TPS For TCC Enabled
TCC Enable Coolant Temp. Threshold
TCC Low MPH Coast Load Limit
TCC High MPH Coast Load Limit
TCC Coast Load Limit High/Low MPH Thresh
TCC Coast Load Limit Hysteresis
TCC Lockup Delay
Fuel Cutoff Engine Speed
Fuel Resume Engine Speed
Fuel Cutoff Speed
Fuel Resume Speed
A/C Disable %TPS Threshold
N/V Ratio for 5th Gear
N/V Ratio for 4th Gear
N/V Ratio for 3rd Gear
N/V Ratio for 2nd Gear
N/V Ratio for 1st Gear
RPM Tolerance for 5th Gear
RPM Tolerance for 4th Gear
RPM Tolerance for 3rd Gear
RPM Tolerance for 2nd Gear
RPM Tolerance for 1st Gear
Shift Light Delay Time (1st Gear)
Shift Light Delay Time (2nd - 5th Gear)
Shift Light Enable RPM (4th -> 5th)
Shift Light Disable MAP (4th -> 5th)
Shift Light Enable RPM (3rd -> 4th)
Shift Light Disable MAP (3rd -> 4th)
Shift Light Enable RPM (2nd -> 3rd)
Shift Light Disable MAP (2nd -> 3rd)
Shift Light Enable RPM (1st -> 2nd)
Shift Light Disable MAP (1st -> 2nd)
PROM ID

Tables
ECM Switch Table
ECM Constant Table
Main Spark Advance Vs. RPM Vs. MAP
Cool Compensation Spark Vs Vacuum
EGR Spark Advance Correction Vs. %EGR
Power Enrich Spark Advance Vs RPM
Cold Engine AFR Vs. Coolant Temp. Vs. MAP
Crank Air Fuel Ratio Vs. Coolant Temp.
Time-Out Run AFR Correction Vs. Coolant Temp.
Closed Throttle %Vol. Eff. Vs. RPM Vs. MAP
OpenThrottle %Vol. Eff. Vs. RPM Vs. MAP
%Vol. Efficiency Adder Vs. RPM
Accel Enrich. Delta MAP Factor Vs. Delta MAP
Accel Enrich. Delta TPS Factor Vs. Delta TPS
Accel. Enrich Temp. Correction Vs. Cool. Temp.
Accel Enrich. RPM Correction Vs. RPM
Decel Enlean Temp. Correction Vs. Cool. Temp.
Decel Enlean Load Correction Factor Vs. MAP
Decel Enlean Delta MAP Factor Vs. Delta MAP
Decel Enlean. Delta TPS Factor Vs. Delta TPS
Base Pulse Constant Vs. EGR Duty Cycle
BPW Battery Voltage Correction Vs. Battery Voltage
MAT BPW Correction Factor Vs. MAT
Injector PW Correction Vs. Battery Voltage
Low Pulse Width Injector Offset Vs. BPW
Desired Idle RPM Vs. Battery Voltage
Fast Idle IAC Position Offset Vs. Coolant Temp.
Power Steering Stall IAC Position Offset Vs. Baro
%EGR Vs. Vacuum Vs. RPM
TCC Upper Load Limit Vs. MPH
TCC Lower Load Limit Vs. MPH
Shift Light Enable RPM Vs. %TPS (All Gears)


 
quote
90-92 F-body 3.1 7730 ECM

ECM Switch Parameters
VATS Select (X = active)
Transmission Type (X = Manual)
Normally Open Fan 1 Request
Normally Open Fan 2 Request
Lean Cruise Option (X = active)
Highway Mode Fuel (X = enabled)
Fuel Mode (0 = AFR Mode X = BPW Mode)
O2 Sensor Diagnostic (Error 12)
Vss Sensor Diagnostic (Error 24)
EGR Diagnostic (Error 32)
Knock Sensor Diagnostic (Error 43)
VATS Diagnostic (Error 46)

ECM Constants
Initial Spark Advance
Extended RPM Spark Advance Slope
Main Spark Extended RPM Limit
EGR Spark Adv. Correction Bias
Launch Mode Knock Attack Rate Multiplier
Launch Mode Spark Advance Bias
Launch Mode Vehicle Speed Threshold
Launch Mode Positive Delta TPS Thresh.
Launch Mode Disable Neg. Delta TPS
Launch Mode Enable Delta MAP Thresh.
Launch Mode Disable Delta MAP Thresh.
Maximum Time in Launch Mode
Idle Spark Enable TPS Threshold
Idle Spark Enable Speed Threshold
Idle Spark Disable TPS Threshold
Idle Spark Disable Speed Threshold
Highway Mode Spark, Max MAP
Highway Mode Spark, Min Coolant Temp.
Highway Mode Spark Disable RPM Threshold
Coolant Compensation Spark Advance Bias
TCC Locked Spark Retard Bias
Initial Time Out Spark Bias
Knock Retard Enable RPM Threshold
Knock Retard Enable Speed Threshold
Knock Retard Enable Coolant Temp. Thresh
Fan 1 On Coolant Temp, Low MPH, A/C Off
Fan 1 Off Coolant Temp, Low MPH, A/C Off
Fan 1 On Coolant Temp, Hi MPH or A/C On
Fan 1 Off Coolant Temp, Hi MPH or A/C On
Fan 1 Low/High MPH Threshold
Fan 2 On Coolant Temp, Low MPH, A/C Off
Fan 2 Off Coolant Temp, Low MPH, A/C Off
Fan 2 On Coolant Temp, Hi MPH or A/C On
Fan 2 Off Coolant Temp, Hi MPH or A/C On
Fan 2 Low/High MPH Threshold
Fan 1 On Time Delay
Fan 2 On Time Delay
IAC Steps Added for Fan 1 On
IAC Steps Added for Fan 2 On
Max Vehicle Speed for Idle
Idle RPM Offset for A/C On
Fuel Cutoff RPM
Fuel Resume RPM
Fuel Cutoff Vehicle Speed
Fuel Resume Vehicle Speed
Minimum RPM for Block Learn
Maximum RPM for Block Learn
Maximum RPM for Idle Block Learn
Minimum BLM Value
Maximum BLM Value
Minimum Integrator Value
Maximum Integrator Value
Stochiometric AFR
Maximum Allowable AFR
Highway Mode Fuel AFR
Highway Mode Fuel Enable Speed
Highway Mode Fuel Disable Speed
Minimum Async Pulse Width
Maximum Async Pulse Width
Injector Flow Rate
Injector Flow Rate (Display)
Cold Closed Loop Enable Timer
Warm Closed Loop Enable Timer
Hot Closed Loop Enable Timer
Max Coolant Temp for Cold C/L Timer
Min Coolant Temp for Hot C/L Timer
Min. Closed Loop Coolant Temp.
Power Enrich TPS Enable Hysteresis
Power Enrich Enable MAP Threshold
Power Enrich Enable MAP Hysteresis
Accel Enrich Enable Delta TPS Threshold
Accel Enrich Disable Delta TPS Threshold
CCP Enable Coolant Temp Threshold
A.I.R. Enable Coolant Temp. Threshold
Minimum EGR Duty Cycle
EGR On VE Compensation Factor
EGR Enable Min Coolant Temp
EGR Disable MAP Threshold
EGR Enable MAP Threshold
TCC Lock Delay Time
Unconditional TCC Lock Vehicle Speed
TCC Disable TPS Threshold, Low Gears
TCC Enable TPS Threshold, Low Gears
TCC Lock Enable MPH Thresh, Low Gears
TCC Lock Disable MPH Thresh, Low Gears
TCC Lock Enable MPH Thresh, Low Gr, A/C
TCC Lock Disable MPH Thresh, Low Gr, A/C
TCC Disable TPS Threshold, High Gear
TCC Enable TPS Threshold, High Gear
TCC Lock Enable MPH Thresh, High Gear
TCC Lock Disable MPH Thresh, High Gear
TCC Lock Enable MPH Thresh, Hi Gr, A/C
TCC Lock Disable MPH Thresh, Hi Gr, A/C
TCC Lock Enable Coolant Temp Threhold
TCC Lock Disable Coolant Temp Threhold
Number of Cylinders
Road Speed Constant
Instrument Panel VSS Pulse Divisor
Prom ID

Tables
ECM Switch Table
ECM Constant Table
Main Spark Advance Vs. MAP Vs. RPM
Base Cool. Adv. Correction Vs. Load Vs. Cool. Temp
Launch Mode Spark Advance Vs. RPM Vs. MAP
PE Spark Advance Correction Vs. AFR
EGR Spark Advance Correction Vs. % EGR
TCC Locked Spark Retard Vs. RPM Vs. MAP
Highway Mode Spark Advance Vs. MAP
Initial Time Out Spark Vs. Coolant Temp.
Time Out Spark Decay Vs. Startup Coolant Temp.
Knock Retard Attack Rate Vs. RPM
Knock Retard Attack Rate Vs. RPM in PE
Knock Retard Recovery Rate Vs. RPM
Knock Retard Recovery Rate Vs. RPM in PE
Maximum Knock Retard Vs. RPM
Maximum Knock Retard Vs. RPM in PE
Idle Spark Multiplier Vs. Coolant Temp.
Idle Spark Multiplier Vs. MAP
Idle Overspeed Spark Retard Vs. RPM Error
Idle Underspeed Spark Advance Vs. RPM Error
Main Volumetric Efficiency Vs. RPM Vs. MAP
Volumetric Efficiency Adder Vs. RPM
Idle Volumetric Efficiency Vs. RPM Vs. MAP
VE Correction For EGR On Vs. RPM Vs. Vacuum
VE Correction for EGR Vs. MAP (TCC Locked)
Base Pulse Constant Multiplier Vs. MAP/Baro Ratio
Base Pulse Constant Multiplier vs Baro
Base Pulse Constant Vs. Desired % EGR
Power Enrich Enable TPS Thresh. Vs. Coolant Temp.
Open Loop Idle AFR Correction Vs. MAP
Open Loop AFR Vs. Coolant Temp. Vs. Map
Closed Throttle Open Loop AFR Vs. Coolant Temp.
BPW Offset Vs. Battery Voltage
Low BPW Correction Vs. Pulse Width
Power Enrich Mode AFR Vs. RPM
Accel Enrich Factor Vs. AE Pulse
AE Async Pulse Multiplier Vs. Coolant Temp.
AE Async Pulse Multiplier Vs. Delta TPS
AE Async Pulse Multiplier Vs. Baro
AE Async Pulse Multiplier Vs. MAT
Crank Fuel PW Vs. Coolant Temp.
Crank PW Multiplier Vs. RPM
Crank PW Multiplier Vs. Reference Pulse
Crank PW Multiplier Vs. TPS
Crank PW Multiplier Vs. Baro
Desired Idle Speed Vs. Coolant Temp (In Drive)
Desired Idle Speed Vs. Coolant Temp (In P/N)
Max Throttle Follower Steps Vs. RPM
Max Throttle Follower Steps Vs. Vehicle Speed
Max Throttle Follower Steps Mult. Vs. Cool Temp
Throttle Follower Decay Rate Vs. Vehicle Speed
TCC Lower Load Limit Vs. MPH, Low Gear
TCC Upper Load Limit Vs. MPH, Low Gear
TCC Lower Load Limit Vs. MPH, High Gear
TCC Upper Load Limit Vs. MPH, High Gear
EGR Duty Cycle Vs. MAP Vs. RPM
EGR Duty Cycle Multiplier Vs. Coolant Temp.





Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #68, 01-18-2007 02:49 PM
      Just because of the datastream speed alone, the 1227730 is FAR more of a tuneable ECM then the V6 Fiero's could ever be. You see the actual curve of the O2 sensor as opposed to 1.5 second sample rates. The 7730 will do 10 samples in ONE SECOND!!!

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #69, 01-18-2007 02:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

Just because of the datastream speed alone, the 1227730 is FAR more of a tuneable ECM then the V6 Fiero's could ever be. You see the actual curve of the O2 sensor as opposed to 1.5 second sample rates. The 7730 will do 10 samples in ONE SECOND!!!


Agreed. Also, the processing power/speed of the 7730 also appears to be better than the OE Fiero 2.8 ECMs.



Icelander (whit@dubhlinn.com) MSG #70, 01-18-2007 03:10 PM
      What are the chances that I could install one of these into my 2.5 L4?

I know that it wouldn't make much difference in power or anything. I just want to get rid of the hunting idle and possibly increase it's efficiency.



Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #71, 01-18-2007 03:32 PM
      It *is* possible to use this computer with the 2.5L 4. Though it was never intended to control this engine, it was used on the 2.0 OHC, which is simular in some ways.

The big selling point with the V6's is that the two connectors on the V6 harness plug into the 7730, the wires just have to be moved around a lot, and a third connector added, and some of the pins moved over to it. The Iron duke has what are called PCB edge connectors, which are not compatible with the 7730, therefore you would have to change all the pins on all the connectors to get it to work. THEN you will need to tune it to the duke, which behaves and is tuned pretty differently from a 2.0L OHC. Im not even sure if the ignition systems are compatible, but they likley are the same knowing GM.


Icelander (whit@dubhlinn.com) MSG #72, 01-18-2007 03:35 PM
      Good to know. Sounds like if I'm going to go to all that effort, I might be better off waiting to I do my engine swap and use the ECU from that vehicle.

Thanks for the feedback!

[This message has been edited by Icelander (edited 01-18-2007).]

vortecfiero (vortecfiero@hotmail.com) MSG #73, 01-19-2007 08:25 PM
      another candidate ecm would be the '749
fan control
boost control
boost controled spark timeing and fuel tables (calibrations exist for 50lb injectors and 3 bar map sensors)
will run with single or dual knock sensors
will recognise wideband with an easy change to the $58 code
programable shift lights or auto trany shift locations
most tuning soft wear will work with the $58 code
a new self tuning (to a certain point) $59 code is on the horizon
lots of naturally asperated GM vehicles used this ecm besides the various turbo applications
Data Master will log all the ecm data for over 2 hrs ($100 + laptop)
moats has a chip adapter that allows you to burn 16 diff bins on one chip and switch easily between them

ECM $35 on ebay
tuner cat is free
moates single bin adapter is about $40
reusable chips are about $5
chip burner is $85

and Cooter on this board has already done a 2.8 so the bins exist to get you started





Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #74, 01-21-2007 02:17 AM
      Got a spreadsheet put together for the wiring conversion. It can be viewed/downloaded here:

http://www.gmtuners.com/files/Fiero2.8_to_7730.pdf

I have wiring diagrams and pinouts for both the Fiero 2.8 ECM's as well as the 90-92 Camaro 3.1 ECM available for download at my website.

-ryan


Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #75, 01-21-2007 10:37 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

Got a spreadsheet put together for the wiring conversion. It can be viewed/downloaded here:

http://www.gmtuners.com/files/Fiero2.8_to_7730.pdf

I have wiring diagrams and pinouts for both the Fiero 2.8 ECM's as well as the 90-92 Camaro 3.1 ECM available for download at my website.

-ryan

Thanks Ryan, can't wait to get started! I hope your're on call for questions. -Jason



Knight MSG #76, 01-21-2007 11:23 AM
      First thanks Darth for the ecm comparisons (that ought to give me something to do for a while comparing them).
The 7749 functions and abilities and such as listed by vortecfiero are all good. Since the 7730 and 7749 are so similar, do these also apply to the 7730?
What does self-tuning (to a certain point) mean? And as compared to the Fiero's ecm? I thought that everytime you disconnected your battery that the ecm would have to relearn some parameters/values? Does the Fiero ecm not do that?
With the use of a wideband O2 sensor, will the ecm make adjustments to the fuel and spark to keep the A/F ratio at where it is programmed tho keep it. Is this the self tuning that was mentioned?
Who is moates and cooter? Please provide links to both.
Thanks


Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #77, 01-21-2007 08:41 PM
      Rebump back to the top of page 1

Knight MSG #78, 01-21-2007 11:00 PM
      Huh?

Knight MSG #79, 01-21-2007 11:05 PM
      Is this a 7730? The description lists it as "THE PART NUMBER IS 16171331 AND THE SERVICE NUMBER IS 01227/30" on eBay. :http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=190071721326&rd=1,1
If so, then this is my new ECM!
Thanks.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #80, 01-22-2007 12:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

Is this a 7730? The description lists it as "THE PART NUMBER IS 16171331 AND THE SERVICE NUMBER IS 01227/30" on eBay. :http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=009&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=190071721326&rd=1,1
If so, then this is my new ECM!
Thanks.



Yes, that looks like the 7730 ECM you would need.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #81, 01-22-2007 12:35 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

First thanks Darth for the ecm comparisons (that ought to give me something to do for a while comparing them).
The 7749 functions and abilities and such as listed by vortecfiero are all good. Since the 7730 and 7749 are so similar, do these also apply to the 7730?
What does self-tuning (to a certain point) mean? And as compared to the Fiero's ecm? I thought that everytime you disconnected your battery that the ecm would have to relearn some parameters/values? Does the Fiero ecm not do that?
With the use of a wideband O2 sensor, will the ecm make adjustments to the fuel and spark to keep the A/F ratio at where it is programmed tho keep it. Is this the self tuning that was mentioned?
Who is moates and cooter? Please provide links to both.
Thanks


I will defer to vortecfiero to answer these questions for you. I haven't had much experience with the 7749 nor reprogramming a factory GM ECM to work with a wideband.

Concerning a GM ECM's learning ability, yes they can do some limited learning and if you disconnect the battery, that would be lost. Different tuners have different tuning styles. Some prefer to disable closed loop mode and just tune in open loop using a wideband. I prefer to let the computer learn by itself, log the data, and then tune using those data logs. However, this is probably easier for me because of my level of understanding of scan data and years of experience. Different strokes for different folks. With that being said, the best way to tune for WOT fuel is by using a wide-band O2 sensor.

-ryan


Knight MSG #82, 01-22-2007 12:46 AM
      I just won the bid for this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...=320072711729&rd=1,1
It looks like it is missing the PROM. Is it?
If so, will this one work:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...=270080393183&rd=1,1
Is this the "chip" I need to send to you to reprogram. Do I need to send the 7730 with it?

Or did I mess up and need to buy a new chip from GM? Or do you have a spare I can buy?

How do I get you the info to reprogram the chip or will it work as is with a stock 2.8 distributor motor for now?


Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #83, 01-22-2007 10:12 AM
      Ryan,
I don't think the wiring you posted is going to work with using the coil pack like we discussed ( I see distributer wiring). Is there a different pinout to use for that method? Thanks, Jason


David DeVoe (marcia.david.devoe@sbcglobal.net) MSG #84, 01-22-2007 11:19 AM
      Darth, I'm a bit confused on how to find some of these parts. The V6 memcal for instance, where is it if not in the ECM, and after reading a post about buying the ECM on ebay the part number listed wasn't 1227730. Won't that number appear on the part? and if not what number will be there. I'm also curious about the chance of buying a used ECM that is bad. What is the failure rate on these things. Thanks for any info. This is a very good thread, almost sounds like a must do.
Dave


Alex4mula (torres_a@hotmail.com) MSG #85, 01-22-2007 11:26 AM
      This is very good info. Plus for you. Also once you swap to a 730 then you can drop a V8 TPI engine and easily run it with the same harness. That's what I'm doing but with a 165 and a $5D mask. Very probable I may try to upgrade it to the 730 later on. I may try it in my other 3.4 so I can learn to tune it and then move the V8.
Like Darth said doing this swap is not too difficult at all. Just get a pin removal tool for the ECM connectors and some wire soldering equipment. If you want to ge into the tunning then get TunerCat or similar and educate yourself at DIYPROM at thirdgen.com. Great info there.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #86, 01-22-2007 08:29 PM
      FWIW there is a free/shareware scan tool software program out there that can be used with the 7730/7727 V6 ECM. It is FREESCAN and can be found here: http://andywhittaker.com/EC...abid/70/Default.aspx

Concerning the questions...

 
quote

I just won the bid for this
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...=320072711729&rd=1,1
It looks like it is missing the PROM. Is it?
If so, will this one work:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...=270080393183&rd=1,1
Is this the "chip" I need to send to you to reprogram. Do I need to send the 7730 with it?

Or did I mess up and need to buy a new chip from GM? Or do you have a spare I can buy?

How do I get you the info to reprogram the chip or will it work as is with a stock 2.8 distributor motor for now?


Yes, it apprears the mem-cal (PROM, chip, etc) is missing from the ECM in that auction. You will need to supply me with a V6 mem-cal to reprogram for this Fiero ECM swap. The other auction you listed for the AUJW mem-cal is exactly the mem-cal you need; and $20 isn't a bad price for one of these. GM charges more than that for a new one.

 
quote

Ryan,
I don't think the wiring you posted is going to work with using the coil pack like we discussed ( I see distributer wiring). Is there a different pinout to use for that method? Thanks, Jason


Jason, the wiring is very similar between distributor and DIS V6 applications using the 7730 ECM; so you should still be able to use my wiring instructions for a DIS application. Just download the wiring pinouts for both the 7730 distributor (90-92 Camaro 3.1) and 7730 DIS (88-93 Beretta V6) from my website and compare the two. You will find there are some slight wiring differences at the ECM, but those are for subsystems that aren't necessary in the Fiero swap.

 
quote

Darth, I'm a bit confused on how to find some of these parts. The V6 memcal for instance, where is it if not in the ECM, and after reading a post about buying the ECM on ebay the part number listed wasn't 1227730. Won't that number appear on the part? and if not what number will be there. I'm also curious about the chance of buying a used ECM that is bad. What is the failure rate on these things. Thanks for any info. This is a very good thread, almost sounds like a must do.
Dave


Dave, the ECM Service Number (part number) you need is 1227730. The 1227730 part number was later changed to 16196344 and 16198262 so any ECM carrying these service/part numbers will work for this swap.

The mem-cal contains the PROM chip, backup fuel chips, and knock sensor interface module. The mem-cal plugs into the computer and is located under the access cover. The mem-cal looks like this:



Concerning the failure rate of the 7730 ECM, it was no more greater than any other GM computer of the era. However, keep in mind the 7730 was a VERY COMMON ECM used in many GM cars for a wide year ranges so chances of coming across a bad 7730 ECM is not remote. The best advice I can give you when buying a used ECM is make sure whoever you get it from is willing to warranty it. Also, you might want to wait until the latest possible moment to purchase a used ECM; so in the event it is bad, it won't be out of the warranty/replacement period.

The new ACDELCO/GM part number for a reman 7730 ECM is 88999196. The GM p/n for a new 90-92 Camaro 3.1 V6 mem-cal is 16171406.

 
quote

This is very good info. Plus for you. Also once you swap to a 730 then you can drop a V8 TPI engine and easily run it with the same harness. That's what I'm doing but with a 165 and a $5D mask. Very probable I may try to upgrade it to the 730 later on. I may try it in my other 3.4 so I can learn to tune it and then move the V8.
Like Darth said doing this swap is not too difficult at all. Just get a pin removal tool for the ECM connectors and some wire soldering equipment. If you want to ge into the tunning then get TunerCat or similar and educate yourself at DIYPROM at thirdgen.com. Great info there.


Alex, I used to have a 350 TPI that was running the 7165 ECM and $6E code mask. I then upgraded to the speed density 7730 ECM running $8D code mask and the drivability/response of the engine increased significantly with just the ECM swap alone. It's definately a worthwhile upgrade and there is also a bonus when doing this. VEMaster is a shareware software program that works with TTS Datamaster scan data logs and the $8D code mask to automatically adjust VE table values to help you tune. VEMaster works very well and pretty much can take care of your idle and part throttle fuel table adjustments automatically. Of course, if you have done much reading over at thirdgen you probably already know this.

-ryan



Alex4mula (torres_a@hotmail.com) MSG #87, 01-23-2007 08:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

Alex, I used to have a 350 TPI that was running the 7165 ECM and $6E code mask. I then upgraded to the speed density 7730 ECM running $8D code mask and the drivability/response of the engine increased significantly with just the ECM swap alone. It's definately a worthwhile upgrade and there is also a bonus when doing this. VEMaster is a shareware software program that works with TTS Datamaster scan data logs and the $8D code mask to automatically adjust VE table values to help you tune. VEMaster works very well and pretty much can take care of your idle and part throttle fuel table adjustments automatically. Of course, if you have done much reading over at thirdgen you probably already know this.

-ryan


Thanks. I am running speed density with the 165. The $5D code is a SD australian code that runs on the 165. I used the stock Fiero harness and all sensors. Just added couple of injector wires and bingo. Easiest fuel injected V8 in a Fiero but you need to be able to tune. The code is very simple and with minimal variables so the 730 has much more tuneability. That's why later on I may move to it


rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #88, 01-23-2007 10:15 PM
      Just want to be sure of this......I have followed the thread and just have one question. I am planning on building a 3400 w/ 3.4l Camaro heads, stock (modified) intake setup, DIS, and a properly sized turbo arrangement. Is the 7730 the ECM for this swap....with proper coding? Or would the 7749 be better? Sorry if this was answered along the way, but I just didn't see it (or maybe couldn't get thru "the fog"). By the way, great thread to help us out with these computer woes!

Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #89, 01-24-2007 03:37 AM
      7730 hands down. The codes it normally runs are specific to that engine arrangment. Otherwise, you'll be adapting the 4.3L code to match your arrangment, as opposed to using the 3.1 Turbo code, specifically the AZRC code with the $8F Mask.

David DeVoe (marcia.david.devoe@sbcglobal.net) MSG #90, 01-24-2007 10:57 AM
      Darth
In your list of what to get you say the ECM and SOME wiring. I hate to nit pick but what does some mean in this instance? Do we need the harness out of the donor car?
Dave


rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #91, 01-24-2007 01:48 PM
      Thanks a bunch!

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #92, 01-24-2007 02:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

7730 hands down. The codes it normally runs are specific to that engine arrangment. Otherwise, you'll be adapting the 4.3L code to match your arrangment, as opposed to using the 3.1 Turbo code, specifically the AZRC code with the $8F Mask.


Agree 100%.

 
quote
Originally posted by David DeVoe:

Darth
In your list of what to get you say the ECM and SOME wiring. I hate to nit pick but what does some mean in this instance? Do we need the harness out of the donor car?
Dave


All you need is a 7730 ECM, it's connectors, and some wiring with those connectors (a length of about 6 inches should be enough). In addition, you will need some extra wires to run out to the engine to connect the inj driver grounds to the block, as well as the digital EGR and EVAP solenoid should you decide to wire up those devices. You should get wiring from the donor car if you can; BUT I STRONGLY RECOMMEND NOT USING wire you can buy from autozone in the engine compartment. Most of the wire autozone and other parts stores sell is not temperature rated for use in engine compartments near exhaust systems like factory GM wiring. You don't need a complete donor harness, unless you can get it for a really good price.

-ryan



Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #93, 01-26-2007 08:22 AM
      getting it back to the top ^^

Knight MSG #94, 01-26-2007 09:21 PM
      Will a PROM from a 92 Camaro 3.1L V6 work with a stock 2.8 with or without EGR updrades to electronic EGR. I am just trying to not have to reprogram the chip for a stock engine....Okay, I am cheap..no frugal. Yeah...frugal. That's the ticket!


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #95, 01-27-2007 12:01 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Knight:

Will a PROM from a 92 Camaro 3.1L V6 work with a stock 2.8 with or without EGR updrades to electronic EGR. I am just trying to not have to reprogram the chip for a stock engine....Okay, I am cheap..no frugal. Yeah...frugal. That's the ticket!


No, a stock 92 Camaro 3.1 chip will NOT work with a stock Fiero 2.8; with or without the digital EGR installed. It will need to be reprogrammed to work correctly with the stock Fiero 2.8 regardless if a digital EGR valve is present.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-27-2007).]

cropduster MSG #96, 01-27-2007 09:20 AM
      Darth, any more progress for the EGR adapter plate?? I'm getting the components for this swap but I've got emissions in my area.....



cropduster MSG #97, 01-27-2007 09:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


All you need is a 7730 ECM, it's connectors, and some wiring with those connectors (a length of about 6 inches should be enough). In addition, you will need some extra wires to run out to the engine to connect the inj driver grounds to the block, as well as the digital EGR and EVAP solenoid should you decide to wire up those devices. You should get wiring from the donor car if you can; BUT I STRONGLY RECOMMEND NOT USING wire you can buy from autozone in the engine compartment. Most of the wire autozone and other parts stores sell is not temperature rated for use in engine compartments near exhaust systems like factory GM wiring. You don't need a complete donor harness, unless you can get it for a really good price.

-ryan


I'm planning on doing this swap and I did a search for underhood wire. Came up with this: http://www.kayjayco.com/catPWireSelect.
I'm not recommending this place, just letting people know there IS a source out there in all colors too.




Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #98, 01-27-2007 12:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by cropduster:

Darth, any more progress for the EGR adapter plate?? I'm getting the components for this swap but I've got emissions in my area.....



I think I figured out a way to do this with GM parts and a little fabircation, but I need to get another part to be sure. I'll share my results with everyone in this thread. -Jason



FieroVin (vin.latus@outlook.com) MSG #99, 01-27-2007 01:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierofreak00:


I think I figured out a way to do this with GM parts and a little fabircation, but I need to get another part to be sure. I'll share my results with everyone in this thread. -Jason


Jason is like Fiero MacGyver he finds a part from an old buick and makes it look like a stock Fiero option only better. Keep us posted.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #100, 01-27-2007 11:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by cropduster:

Darth, any more progress for the EGR adapter plate?? I'm getting the components for this swap but I've got emissions in my area.....



Mick, I am busy learning Pro Engineer (similar to AutoCAD) so I can get my design transferred to a CAD drawing so any machinist can plug the design into a CNC and machine up a plate. Still going to be some time before it is ready. Until then, I am willing to share my paper sketch of the EGR adapter plate with anyone who emails me requesting it. The sketch isn't perfect, but it includes the dimensions and major information needed to make this adapter.

-ryan


cropduster MSG #101, 01-28-2007 08:03 AM
      Thanks for the response and your work on this Ryan, I'm saving this thread so I'll know when someone figures this out.
Boy I really miss working for a major airline (got laid off after 23 years). Our machine shop had the latest and greatest CNC machines and the guys back there were fantastic. They could really make some cool stuff out of our scrap after hours!!



ohio86se (rick44314@gmail.com) MSG #102, 01-28-2007 08:30 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


Mick, I am busy learning Pro Engineer (similar to AutoCAD) so I can get my design transferred to a CAD drawing so any machinist can plug the design into a CNC and machine up a plate. Still going to be some time before it is ready. Until then, I am willing to share my paper sketch of the EGR adapter plate with anyone who emails me requesting it. The sketch isn't perfect, but it includes the dimensions and major information needed to make this adapter.

-ryan


Ryan,

Have you ever used SolidWorks? I have used AutoCad for about 10 year and SolidWorks for about 5. Do you need any modeling done for the parts you are designing? I can do that. Its my normal job.
Just let me know



vortecfiero (vortecfiero@hotmail.com) MSG #103, 01-28-2007 10:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


I will defer to vortecfiero to answer these questions for you. I haven't had much experience with the 7749 nor reprogramming a factory GM ECM to work with a wideband.

Concerning a GM ECM's learning ability, yes they can do some limited learning and if you disconnect the battery, that would be lost. Different tuners have different tuning styles. Some prefer to disable closed loop mode and just tune in open loop using a wideband. I prefer to let the computer learn by itself, log the data, and then tune using those data logs. However, this is probably easier for me because of my level of understanding of scan data and years of experience. Different strokes for different folks. With that being said, the best way to tune for WOT fuel is by using a wide-band O2 sensor.

-ryan


the basic .bin data will not be lost... only the error codes and BLM positons..
long term trim and short term trim.... a few min of idleing when warmed up will
put you back more or less to where you were.

[This message has been edited by vortecfiero (edited 01-28-2007).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #104, 01-28-2007 11:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ohio86se:


Ryan,

Have you ever used SolidWorks? I have used AutoCad for about 10 year and SolidWorks for about 5. Do you need any modeling done for the parts you are designing? I can do that. Its my normal job.
Just let me know



Never used SolidWorks. The last version of AutoCAD I was trained to use was available in 1992 (can't even remember the version). If you would like to take a look at the design sketch I made of this adapter plate, shoot me an email and I would be happy to send it to you.

-ryan


JazzMan (jazzman@fierocentral.com) MSG #105, 01-29-2007 07:27 PM
      Darth, did you get my email?

James


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #106, 01-30-2007 02:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:

Darth, did you get my email?

James


No, I don't recall getting an email from you. Shoot me a PM with your email address.


Concerning the CAD drawing, this is how far I have gotten with it in ProE...



I still have much more to learn about how to use ProE but it shouldn't be too long before I learn enough to finish this CAD model.

-ryan


ohio86se (rick44314@gmail.com) MSG #107, 01-30-2007 10:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


No, I don't recall getting an email from you. Shoot me a PM with your email address.


Concerning the CAD drawing, this is how far I have gotten with it in ProE...



I still have much more to learn about how to use ProE but it shouldn't be too long before I learn enough to finish this CAD model.

-ryan



Ryan,
I have just about completed the model in SolidWorks you sent me. I should be done tomorrow.



ohio86se (rick44314@gmail.com) MSG #108, 01-31-2007 06:10 PM
      Heres is what have been sending to Ryan based on his sketch
Its only preliminary




Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #109, 02-01-2007 09:32 PM
      Here's what I'm working on to add the 7730 to.













I was able to make my own adapter using the egr stand off from the 3.1 liter in the Camaro/Firebird (I'm still trying to find out if you can get the same piece from another car). I then fabbed up a mounting plate to mount to the original Fiero stand off. I used 1/4 steel to make the plate, and then cut off the end of the 3.1's egr adapter and welded it together. As you can see I have a set focoa headers and am using the 3.4's intake ( I like how it looks) so I had to move the egr stand off from the original position a little to the left to clear the throttle body and cables. I'm not worried about the position of the distributer as I won't be using it. I've been talking to Ryan and I want to use the coil pack from the 3.4 to clean up the engine bay and give my car a unique look. Kinda cool huh?


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #110, 02-02-2007 08:21 AM
      So you just turn the 3.4L intake around and it fits? Or is there more involved?

Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #111, 02-02-2007 09:01 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

So you just turn the 3.4L intake around and it fits? Or is there more involved?


I'd like to say yes but, it's not that easy. Due to the egr location on the intake, the throttle body position and cable hook ups, fuel rail configuration and most importantly the area the t-stat housing sits in. That area needs to be modified to fit where the housing goes.



This isn't really for the faint of heart, alot of things need to be fabbed to work. I'll keep an update in another thread shortly, so that I don' t pollute this one.
Please disregard the duct tape, I'm using it to keep the intake free of crap.....

[This message has been edited by Fierofreak00 (edited 02-02-2007).]

David DeVoe (marcia.david.devoe@sbcglobal.net) MSG #112, 02-02-2007 02:27 PM
      Fierofreak, is that a 3.4 or 3400 engine?

Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #113, 02-02-2007 04:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by David DeVoe:

Fierofreak, is that a 3.4 or 3400 engine?


3.4 Firebird.



Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #114, 02-03-2007 09:04 PM
      Crap! Killed another thread.......^

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #115, 02-04-2007 01:20 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierofreak00:

Crap! Killed another thread.......^


No you didn't.

And for the record I like your idea of using the 3.4 Camaro intake. That split plenum design has shorter runners than a stock Fiero 2.8 intake plenum which will translate into more capability for higher RPM performance. I have never personally tried to use the 3.4 camaro intake with the Fiero water neck, but I can see where you ran into problems. I hope you get it figured out.


FieroVin (vin.latus@outlook.com) MSG #116, 02-04-2007 08:46 AM
      I'm waiting to see what the slick solution will be for that egr adapter.

Keep up the good work guys.


Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #117, 02-04-2007 09:22 AM
      Here's another piece to the puzzle..



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #118, 02-05-2007 10:04 PM
      What is it?

Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #119, 02-05-2007 10:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

What is it?


Getrag case half, that I powder coated. Rebuilding it at the same time. -Jason


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #120, 02-05-2007 10:12 PM
      Nice, looks good.

Question for Ryan: Can the 7730 ECM control a 4t60e transmission?


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #121, 02-06-2007 02:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

Question for Ryan: Can the 7730 ECM control a 4t60e transmission?


Nope. However, if you are using a engine that is DIS compatible, you can install the DIS ignition system and use a 91-93 W-body V6 computer (16149396 $DF) which will work with a 4T60-E.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 02-08-2007).]

Capitol City Fiero (capitolcityfieros@gmail.com) MSG #122, 02-08-2007 07:45 PM
      Ryan just want to give it a bump and keep it alive

FieroVin (vin.latus@outlook.com) MSG #123, 02-08-2007 09:24 PM
      Any update on the EGR adapter plate?



cropduster MSG #124, 02-10-2007 10:08 AM
      Seems I overlooked something. If the 7730 ECM uses a knock sensor, where do I put one on my stock 2.8L ??? I haven't gone out and physically looked yet but I don't THINK my engine has one.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #125, 02-10-2007 01:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by cropduster:

Seems I overlooked something. If the 7730 ECM uses a knock sensor, where do I put one on my stock 2.8L ??? I haven't gone out and physically looked yet but I don't THINK my engine has one.


The stock 2.8 Fiero engine does not have a knock sensor installed. However, it does have provisions for a knock sensor. If you are using an earlier engine block, you can simply install the proper knock sensor into one of the block coolant drain ports. If you have a later block, it will have a seperate boss already tapped with the proper size pipe thread for a knock sensor in the back of the block. If you are installing a knock sensor into an older block, only use teflon paste to seal the threads on the sensor, do not use teflon TAPE. The reason for this is because the sensor has to ground to the block thru the threads. Teflon tape can prevent a good ground connection between the sensor's threads and the threads in the block.


cropduster MSG #126, 02-10-2007 03:26 PM
      Thanks, it's good to know there are provisions for the sensor. As far as the "proper" sensor, I'm assuming the one that originally came with the ECM ('86 Beretta) or is it really all that critical?
BTW, how's the EGR adapter coming??



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #127, 02-10-2007 11:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by cropduster:

Thanks, it's good to know there are provisions for the sensor. As far as the "proper" sensor, I'm assuming the one that originally came with the ECM ('86 Beretta) or is it really all that critical?
BTW, how's the EGR adapter coming??



The knock sensor you should use should match the mem-cal that you are using in the computer. The mem-cal used in the 7730 ECMs contains the PROM chip, the backup fuel chips, and the knock sensor interface module. The knock sensor interface module is percisely calibrated to work with a specific knock sensor. If you happen to get a used ECM and are not sure what car it and it's mem-cal came out of, I have a way of looking up the information found printed on the mem-cal to determine what vehicle it came from so you can get the correct knock sensor.

Concerning the EGR adapter, I haven't been doing much work on it lately because I have been busy in the shop. However, it looks like ohio86se has already came up with a CAD model so all we need to do is get it transferred to material so it can be fit tested.

-ryan


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #128, 02-14-2007 08:01 AM
     
There are alot of 1227730 ECM's for sale on ebay motors but the knuckleheads are removing the memcal and trying to sell you that extra. They are also trying to sell the wiring pigtails extra. You would pay close to $100 for everything you need.

So, Ryan, if one was forced to buy a 1227730 without the memcal, could you provide one for purchase when you burn the new prom?


Lilchief MSG #129, 02-14-2007 02:01 PM
      Ryan: So would a 9396 ecm run a 3.5 with a 4t60e. Would this be the best 60* V6 swap with out the VVT feature?



antinull.com MSG #130, 02-14-2007 06:33 PM
      how about this for an egr?
http://69.14.156.113/id/cars/fiero/11.jpg


Fierobsessed (nstarfiero@aol.com) MSG #131, 02-14-2007 09:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Lilchief:

Ryan: So would a 9396 ecm run a 3.5 with a 4t60e. Would this be the best 60* V6 swap with out the VVT feature?



The Newer 3.5 pushrod engine? The 9396 ran the 3.1 AND the 3.4 DOHC with the 4T60-E. The only difference between those engines and the 3.5 is a bit of displacment or flow characteristics, and the crank trigger/ignition module. I think it was Joseph Upson(?) that was working on a conversion kit for the older crank trigger to work with the 3.5 crank. That would make it plug and play, with some tuning of course.

As for the 3.5 being the best 60º V6? it's subjective... I'm a 3.4 DOHC person.


Synthesis (synssins@gmail.com) MSG #132, 02-14-2007 10:27 PM
      Will the 7730 ECM run a 1987 Stock 2.8 with a Getrag 5 speed, and if so, what would it take, other than the wiring harness pigtails and changing some wires around to actually set one up? I know where there is a 7730 ECM for 15 bucks with Memcal...

If I get it, I want to know what to get specifically to be able to get this in the car and on the road within 2 days...



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #133, 02-14-2007 11:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:

Will the 7730 ECM run a 1987 Stock 2.8 with a Getrag 5 speed, and if so, what would it take, other than the wiring harness pigtails and changing some wires around to actually set one up? I know where there is a 7730 ECM for 15 bucks with Memcal...

If I get it, I want to know what to get specifically to be able to get this in the car and on the road within 2 days...


Well, if you do not want it, sell it to me....

2 days and it has to be perfect? Good luck.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #134, 02-15-2007 02:15 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:


There are alot of 1227730 ECM's for sale on ebay motors but the knuckleheads are removing the memcal and trying to sell you that extra. They are also trying to sell the wiring pigtails extra. You would pay close to $100 for everything you need.

So, Ryan, if one was forced to buy a 1227730 without the memcal, could you provide one for purchase when you burn the new prom?


New mem-cals are still available from GM. Look to pay $50-$80 for a new mem-cal. I can order one for you if you need one.

 
quote
Originally posted by Lilchief:

Ryan: So would a 9396 ecm run a 3.5 with a 4t60e. Would this be the best 60* V6 swap with out the VVT feature?


As Fierobsessed stated, the pushrod 3.5 has a different crank trigger setup. In order to use this engine you would have to do as he said and get a crank trigger setup that worked with the older style coil pack; which in turn would work with the 9396 ECM.

 
quote
Originally posted by antinull.com:

how about this for an egr?


That would certainly work if you didn't mind not having an EGR valve (and didn't have emissions testing).

 
quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:

Will the 7730 ECM run a 1987 Stock 2.8 with a Getrag 5 speed, and if so, what would it take, other than the wiring harness pigtails and changing some wires around to actually set one up? I know where there is a 7730 ECM for 15 bucks with Memcal...

If I get it, I want to know what to get specifically to be able to get this in the car and on the road within 2 days...


Yes, the 7730 ECM will run a stock 1987 2.8 w/ getrag 5-speed, but won't work with the stock Fiero 2.8 EGR system. What it would take is explained in detail in previous posts I have made to this thread.

-ryan

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 02-15-2007).]

Fieroseverywhere (caalon777@hotmail.com) MSG #135, 02-17-2007 11:44 AM
      Just a bump for a great mod.

88formulaman (blazerman44@hotmail.com) MSG #136, 02-17-2007 11:35 PM
      i can get the 7730 ecms pretty regularly w/ mem-cal and wiring for $50 shipped if anyone is interested let me know. i curently have 2 extra ones in hand, and take paypal



rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #137, 02-18-2007 11:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 88formulaman:

i can get the 7730 ecms pretty regularly w/ mem-cal and wiring for $50 shipped if anyone is interested let me know. i curently have 2 extra ones in hand, and take paypal



Do they come with the plugs and some wiring pigtails?


rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #138, 02-18-2007 11:01 AM
      OK! OK!......I can't read.....still trying to wake up!......I see the wiring info.......sorry.

cropduster MSG #139, 02-18-2007 11:25 AM
      Anybody come up with an EGR adapter plate to sell yet???



Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #140, 02-19-2007 12:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by cropduster:

Anybody come up with an EGR adapter plate to sell yet???



I made one...It's not that hard. -Jason

I might be able to make a few more... If I can find a few more of the stand offs. It's been way to cold and way too much snow to go trudge around a junkyard.




FieroMonkey (piccolo@cox.net) MSG #141, 02-21-2007 04:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Capitol City Fiero:

Ryan:

You got a lot of press on my swap, just a follow up on the car....

mpg is 28 city and 35 hwy
car runs on 87 octane fuel as well

440T4 seems to have a final drive of about 284

again thanks Ryan, we love the upgrades

well worth the money for anyone who has a stock 2.8 3 speed automatic



is this mpg for real? If so I would be willing to pay to have you do this to my 88 Formula automatic


yorkere (yorker@deltanet.com) MSG #142, 02-22-2007 03:58 PM
      Ryan:

A pigtail actually CAN be fabricated, with some hard work; here is what it can look like....

[This message has been edited by yorkere (edited 02-23-2007).]

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #143, 02-22-2007 04:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroMonkey:


is this mpg for real? If so I would be willing to pay to have you do this to my 88 Formula automatic


it should be. it should be a little better than a V6 Grand Am. same drivetrain, lighter car.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #144, 02-22-2007 04:58 PM
      It's worth noting that the fuel economy CC Fieros got was probably mostly due to the OD transmission and it's gearing he is using in his swap. I doubt you will see this kind of fuel economy with a 125-C or getrag Fiero transmission even if you run the 7730 ECM. Although, I will say the 7730 ECM did have a highway mode fuel setting active in this code mask which will help a little with highway fuel economy.

-ryan


cropduster MSG #145, 02-24-2007 10:44 AM
      Ryan, there seems to be a lot of interest in this mod but no one yet has said if they are actually doing it. I'm still waiting for an easy solution for the EGR. Looks like I'll be going to a salvage yard to hack off what I need from a 3.4 EGR boss then finding a welder........
How many people have sent you a chip lately to burn??

I have a few picky questions now.
You stated that:
"The EVAP system did require the addition of a computer-controlled EVAP solenoid and some rerouting of vacuum lines for it."
What solenoid do I need and where does it go? Will it run without it or is it required for emissions or driveability?

"In addition, you will need some extra wires to run out to the engine to connect the inj driver grounds to the block, as well as the digital EGR and EVAP solenoid"
The way I see it, I need a few feet of wire to go from the ECM to the items plus the knock sensor too. Are you drilling a hole through the firewall and using a grommet or are you getting the pins and using the original pass-thru connectors? That 3rd ECM connector has to pass through somewhere!

This is my daily driver so I'm just trying to get my ducks in a row to do it over a weekend. Can't afford any surprises........



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #146, 02-24-2007 10:59 AM
      I can't answer for Ryan, of course, but can offer an observation from my '86 GT. Below and behind the plastic carrier for the ECM are 2 large solid rubber plugs. On mine, one has the metal brake vacuum line running though it. The other has nothing through it. It is the perfect place to run any extra wires without having to drill any new holes in the firewall. I ran an extra chassis ground to the engine block though the same rubber grommet as the vacuum line runs through.

I just purchased a 7730 yesterday so I will be following your progress. Please post any issues you have. Maybe a nice thread with pictures?


cropduster MSG #147, 02-27-2007 07:42 PM
      Ryan you out there??????????



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #148, 02-27-2007 10:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by cropduster:

Ryan, there seems to be a lot of interest in this mod but no one yet has said if they are actually doing it. I'm still waiting for an easy solution for the EGR. Looks like I'll be going to a salvage yard to hack off what I need from a 3.4 EGR boss then finding a welder........
How many people have sent you a chip lately to burn??

I have a few picky questions now.
You stated that:
"The EVAP system did require the addition of a computer-controlled EVAP solenoid and some rerouting of vacuum lines for it."
What solenoid do I need and where does it go? Will it run without it or is it required for emissions or driveability?

"In addition, you will need some extra wires to run out to the engine to connect the inj driver grounds to the block, as well as the digital EGR and EVAP solenoid"
The way I see it, I need a few feet of wire to go from the ECM to the items plus the knock sensor too. Are you drilling a hole through the firewall and using a grommet or are you getting the pins and using the original pass-thru connectors? That 3rd ECM connector has to pass through somewhere!

This is my daily driver so I'm just trying to get my ducks in a row to do it over a weekend. Can't afford any surprises........


Sorry, been very busy in the shop lately...

Concerning the EVAP solenoid, you don't absolutely need one if you are using the stock Fiero intake and throttle body. You can keep the factory Fiero EVAP system hooked up, as-is. If you want the 7730 ECM to control it, all you need to do is install the EVAP solenoid between the large vac port on the canister and the engine. You can get an EVAP purge solenoid from pretty much any GM car or truck. It has two vac ports and a 2-wire electrical plugs. One vac port will be labeled "CAN" which is the port that connects to the canister.

Concerning the additional wires, you don't have to drill any holes in the firewall. If you have an automatic car, you will have one rubber grommet just plugging a hole in the firewall. You can drill a hole in this grommet and feed the wires thru it. If you have a manual car, you won't have any unused holes but the speedo cable grommet is an oval so you can carefully drill a hole in the unused area of this grommet to run your wires thru.

Concerning the PROM chips I have had some interest in chips for this mod but not as many as you would think.


cropduster MSG #149, 03-01-2007 07:25 AM
      Thanks for the response Ryan. I'll be sending you a chip when I find my ECM but I need to nail down everything I'll be doing first. I'm also going to change the tranny to a 440T but now I'm looking at maybe a 3400 too!



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #150, 03-07-2007 11:03 AM
      So my 7730 ECM arrived in the mail (thanks 88formulaman) and I need the pinouts and wiring changes for an '86 GT. Anyone have that info or know where I can look? I looked at Darth Fiero's website and found the pinout for a 89 Baretta but am somewhat confused (never tried this before). All the labels on the diagram are marked with 3 or 4 letters and numbers like YE12 or BB9. I am guessing the code is something like Y=Yellow connector, E=side of 32 pin connector marked E, 12=the 12th pin on that side marked 1 to 16. Am I close? So BB9 would be Black connector, B side, pin 9?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #151, 03-07-2007 11:47 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

So my 7730 ECM arrived in the mail (thanks 88formulaman) and I need the pinouts and wiring changes for an '86 GT. Anyone have that info or know where I can look? I looked at Darth Fiero's website and found the pinout for a 89 Baretta but am somewhat confused (never tried this before). All the labels on the diagram are marked with 3 or 4 letters and numbers like YE12 or BB9. I am guessing the code is something like Y=Yellow connector, E=side of 32 pin connector marked E, 12=the 12th pin on that side marked 1 to 16. Am I close? So BB9 would be Black connector, B side, pin 9?



Try this one: http://www.gmtuners.com/files/Fiero2.8_to_7730.pdf

Concerning the wiring terminal ID's, those should be self-explanitory on the pinout you have. "YExx" terminal is the yellow connector, E-side. "BBxx" terminal is B side of the black connector, but this computer has two black connectors so look at the pinouts you downloaded to determine which connector uses "BB" and "BA" (should be the smaller, 24-pin connector). BC and BD should be the larger, 32-pin black connector.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 03-07-2007).]

What about Bob (rherriges@sbcglobal.net) MSG #152, 03-08-2007 08:09 PM
      First off, Thanks Darth for the info. I'm not looking for huge gains in anything, just would like the 2.8 to run better. This looks like a quick and easy (W/O EGR) way to do it. One thing I would like clear up is which mounting tray is needed.

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

The 7730 ECM also mounts inside the Fiero using a stock, early 4cyl ECM mounting tray.

or
 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:

Actually it's the 87-88 4 Cyl tray.


I have an 84 in the garage to get a tray from, and a tray from an 88 on the way. Just would like to know which one I need. I don't, as of yet, have a 7730 ECM.

Again thanks for everyone's input The past year has been a crash course in Fieros for me.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #153, 03-09-2007 11:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by What about Bob:

One thing I would like clear up is which mounting tray is needed.


I have an 84 in the garage to get a tray from, and a tray from an 88 on the way. Just would like to know which one I need. I don't, as of yet, have a 7730 ECM.





I was told by the guy I got the ECM tray from that it came out of an earlier car. But I don't know that for sure because I rarely work on 4 cyl Fieros and frankly can't remember what trays/ECMs they used in what years. What I can tell you is the tray you are looking for came with the ECM that had it's connectors coming out it's side, not the end like the stock 2.8 ECM.

-ryan


What about Bob (rherriges@sbcglobal.net) MSG #154, 03-09-2007 05:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
I was told by the guy I got the ECM tray from that it came out of an earlier car. But I don't know that for sure because I rarely work on 4 cyl Fieros and frankly can't remember what trays/ECMs they used in what years. What I can tell you is the tray you are looking for came with the ECM that had it's connectors coming out it's side, not the end like the stock 2.8 ECM.

-ryan


I just checked my 84 and the ECM connectors are on the bottom, so it looks like I'll be using the one I'm getting from an 88.



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #155, 03-12-2007 09:50 PM
      I think I'll just bend up some aluminum and make one. No problem with that I hope.

What about Bob (rherriges@sbcglobal.net) MSG #156, 03-13-2007 06:28 PM
      Just got my ECM mount from an 88 coupe (Thanks Madess!) and it matches the first picture on Page 1. The ECM fastens to the top and bottom of the mount, with connectors on the side. It almost makes sense that the 87-88 2.5L with DIS would have this style mount.

Ryan, now I’m wondering, is there a preferred 7730 to use for my totally stock 87 GT 5 speed? One from a manual trans Beretta or manual trans Camerobird?. Or doesn’t the transmission (or even engine) of the donor car matter?



Capitol City Fiero (capitolcityfieros@gmail.com) MSG #157, 03-13-2007 06:59 PM
      Ok Guy's yan has done this swap for me and I'm getting ready to take kilrblugt on it's first run to Florida. We are going on a 2 week run with the car and will give all updates on the install and how it runs and mpg.

Thanks again Ryan!!

[This message has been edited by Capitol City Fiero (edited 03-13-2007).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #158, 03-13-2007 10:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by What about Bob:

Ryan, now I’m wondering, is there a preferred 7730 to use for my totally stock 87 GT 5 speed? One from a manual trans Beretta or manual trans Camerobird?. Or doesn’t the transmission (or even engine) of the donor car matter?




If you get the chip out of this ECM reprogrammed, it doesn't matter if the car it came out of had a manual or auto trans. And you will need to have it reprogrammed if you get the ECM out of a DIS-equipped car like a Beretta or a Camaro/Firebird that had the VATS (pass-key) option.


 
quote
Originally posted by Capitol City Fiero:

Ok Guy's yan has done this swap for me and I'm getting ready to take kilrblugt on it's first run to Florida. We are going on a 2 week run with the car and will give all updates on the install and how it runs and mpg.

Thanks again Ryan!!



No problem. You know my number if you have any problems. Have a fun trip and take some pics!

-ryan


87SEV6Reborn05 (crashdocs@gmail.com) MSG #159, 03-14-2007 11:33 AM
      Sending out my chip to you today, also ran across another ECM at the yard and snatched the chip for someone out there that might be looking for one. any progress on the EGR adapter plate. I noted to just have it deleted until we come up with an adapter.
Thanks


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #160, 03-14-2007 01:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 87SEV6Reborn05:

Sending out my chip to you today, also ran across another ECM at the yard and snatched the chip for someone out there that might be looking for one. any progress on the EGR adapter plate. I noted to just have it deleted until we come up with an adapter.
Thanks


I don't have any adapter plates right now and don't have the resources to get one made. If someone like ohio86se could get a mock-up model made and send it to me, I could check fitment on the Fiero 2.8 crossover pipe and digital EGR valves I have here to see if it would work. But I am very busy in the shop right now so I don't really have time to devote to the EGR adapter plate project at the moment other than what I said I could do above.

-ryan


darkhorizon MSG #161, 03-14-2007 03:40 PM
      I could get these ECU's with the pigtails by the truckload from the junkyards around me, if enough would be interested, fill my pm box up and I will see what I can do.

Capitol City Fiero (capitolcityfieros@gmail.com) MSG #162, 03-20-2007 09:16 PM
      Ok here is the mpg on the 2.8 with the setup ryan did for me

34mpg just did 1600 miles

thanks again Ryan


Daviero MSG #163, 03-20-2007 09:58 PM
      Ryan, I am using a 7730 ECM programmed by the "other Ryan" (Hess) on my Northstar install. Your mention of a digital cruise back on page 1 caught my attention. Can you post more info on that? It would be a much better option than the ugly stock vacuum one. What is required to be scavanged - the cruise module too?, what is the doner family of vehicles, and what is the interface with the Fiero system?
Thanks, Dave



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #164, 03-20-2007 10:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daviero:

Ryan, I am using a 7730 ECM programmed by the "other Ryan" (Hess) on my Northstar install. Your mention of a digital cruise back on page 1 caught my attention. Can you post more info on that? It would be a much better option than the ugly stock vacuum one. What is required to be scavanged - the cruise module too?, what is the doner family of vehicles, and what is the interface with the Fiero system?
Thanks, Dave




Dave, wiring instructions for the "digital cruise" (aka: Delco Electronic/Electromotive) can be downloaded here: http://dtcc.cz28.com/files/electcrz.zip

What you are going to need to do is locate an electronic cruise module and cable that best matches your engine/throttle body. If you are using a 1996-up Northstar throttle body, simply track down one of these cars in the junkyard and get the cruise control module unit and cable off of that car. If you are using an earlier throttle body, more research will be needed as I am not sure when the Northstar started using the all-electronic cruise setup.

-ryan



Daviero MSG #165, 03-20-2007 10:59 PM
      Thanks Ryan. I still have my doner 97 Deville. It is a great resource. I will check out the module. It looks like in the info you posted that the Fiero cruise module is still used too.
Dave.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #166, 03-20-2007 11:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daviero:

Thanks Ryan. I still have my doner 97 Deville. It is a great resource. I will check out the module. It looks like in the info you posted that the Fiero cruise module is still used too.
Dave.




No, neither the stock Fiero cruise module nor cruise servo are used once you install the electronic unit. The only components you are reusing are the existing Fiero's cruise wiring, brake/clutch switches, and the column-mounted cruise switch stalk.


Daviero MSG #167, 03-20-2007 11:49 PM
      Hmmm, I think I see. The Fiero data in page 1 is for reference, and the Grand Prix data on page 2 is the example of the digital servo and module?
But what about the pinout chart calling out pinouts to the Fiero OE module? This is what confuses it. It does stand to reason that the module goes with the servo though.
Dave.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #168, 03-20-2007 11:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daviero:

Hmmm, I think I see. The Fiero data in page 1 is for reference, and the Grand Prix data on page 2 is the example of the digital servo and module?
But what about the pinout chart calling out pinouts to the Fiero OE module? This is what confuses it. It does stand to reason that the module goes with the servo though.
Dave.



Ignore everything but the PINOUT CHART. The other two diagrams/info pages are only there for greater detail of explaination of what the circuits do (I guess I need to remove them from that .zip file, don't I).



Daviero MSG #169, 03-21-2007 12:02 AM
      Ryan, so the second half of the chart is rearranging the pinout of the OE Fiero connector to suit the digital module?
(I suppose this should be in another thread?)
Dave



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #170, 03-21-2007 12:08 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daviero:

Ryan, so the second half of the chart is rearranging the pinout of the OE Fiero connector to suit the digital module?
(I suppose this should be in another thread?)
Dave



The second half of the pinout chart explains that you are connecting 3 pairs of terminals/wires (+ the brake sw circuit) from the OE Fiero cruise module together. This shunts the circuits from the cruise switch on the column and the brake switch to the wiring going to the rear of the car where you are going to install/hook up the new module. My pinout instructions clearly explain what wires need to be connected where. After you are done, you will NOT be plugging the stock Fiero cruise module back in.



Daviero MSG #171, 03-21-2007 12:26 AM
      Ryan - I got it now. Thanks. I was thinking that the digital one was 2 piece system (servo+module) but if I understand correctly, the digital is just 1 combined unit. I would have had trouble finding the digital module under the dash in the u-pull!
Sorry for polluting the 7720 thread, but it is sort of related.
Dave.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #172, 03-21-2007 12:30 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daviero:

Ryan - I got it now. Thanks. I was thinking that the digital one was 2 piece system (servo+module) but if I understand correctly, the digital is just 1 combined unit. I would have had trouble finding the digital module under the dash in the u-pull!
Sorry for polluting the 7720 thread, but it is sort of related.
Dave.




Dave, no pollution of this thread occurred. The electronic cruise is an upgrade just like the 7730 is, and it ties right in with this subject anyway. Concerning the electronic cruise, yes, it is an all-in-one combined unit under the hood. I went ahead and revised my pinout instructions and added another method should you run into a non-working cruise issue using the method you already have. The new method is now included in the .zip file which you can now download at the same link I posted earlier.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 03-21-2007).]

What about Bob (rherriges@sbcglobal.net) MSG #173, 03-30-2007 10:01 PM
      Ryan,
I’ve started parts shopping and have a few more questions. I want to get everything I need and my plan of attack laid out, then I’ll feel ready to send you my MEMCAL for reprogramming. So far, I’ve gotten a Delphi remanufactured ECM from a 91 Firebird auto from eBay for $10, and a second 7730 from a 90 Corsica also from eBay for $10 (never hurts to have backup). This leads up to several more questions about parts I still need & things I have to do.
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
EGR Vacuum Connections - Vacuum caps were used to block off un-needed vac ports. I also installed late model GM electronic cruise control on this engine which allowed the removal of the vac reservoir and hard lines. The EVAP system did require the addition of a computer-controlled EVAP solenoid and some rerouting of vacuum lines for it.

What vehicle did the cruise module come from that you used in kilrblu?

Until I can come up with a new EGR adapter, I’ll have you program me without EGR. Can I leave the old EGR in place with the vacuum lines still hooked up?
I plan on wiring for the new EGR and EVAP to be ready for a possible engine update down the road

 
quote
Originally posted by Fierobsessed:
Actually it's the 87-88 4 Cyl tray. But yea, In all reality, you could provide a "kit" with the third connector, explicit wiring instructions, the speedo adaptor circuit, the EGR and Fan and Knock sensor whip's, an ECM and a chip, burnt to match, and if a 3.4 engine is installed (or any engine with the crank sensor) an adaptor cable from the Distributor to the DIS (they use almost the same wiring anyway, just a different connector).


What “speedo adaptor circuit” is Fierobsessed talking about?

 
quote
Originally posted by Alex4mula:
Just get a pin removal tool for the ECM connectors


What pin extractor is needed for the ECM connectors, and where can I find one?

In discussing the knock sensor, you mention:

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
The stock 2.8 Fiero engine does not have a knock sensor installed. However, it does have provisions for a knock sensor. If you are using an earlier engine block, you can simply install the proper knock sensor into one of the block coolant drain ports. If you have a later block, it will have a separate boss already tapped with the proper size pipe thread for a knock sensor in the back of the block.


Which category does the 87 2.8 fall into, earlier or later?

Again, I offer my thanks for everyone’s help and input.
Bob



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #174, 03-30-2007 10:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by What about Bob:

Ryan,
I’ve started parts shopping and have a few more questions. I want to get everything I need and my plan of attack laid out, then I’ll feel ready to send you my MEMCAL for reprogramming. So far, I’ve gotten a Delphi remanufactured ECM from a 91 Firebird auto from eBay for $10, and a second 7730 from a 90 Corsica also from eBay for $10 (never hurts to have backup). This leads up to several more questions about parts I still need & things I have to do. What vehicle did the cruise module come from that you used in kilrblu?



I believe I used a cruise setup from a 96-up 3800 Series II (SC and n/a) engine from a W-body car (has the longer cable). A small, custom bracket needed to be made so the cable could be attached to the intake manifold (actually bolts to the existing Fiero throttle cable bracket). I am not aware of any direct-fit electronic cruise setups for the Fiero 2.8.

 
quote


Until I can come up with a new EGR adapter, I’ll have you program me without EGR. Can I leave the old EGR in place with the vacuum lines still hooked up?
I plan on wiring for the new EGR and EVAP to be ready for a possible engine update down the road


All vacuum lines should be removed from the stock Fiero 2.8 EGR system. The stock Fiero EGR valve can remain in-place to plug the hole in the system until you get an adapter. You can leave the stock EVAP system as-is on the Fiero, and it will work just fine. You don't have to install the EVAP solenoid for the 7730 ECM unless you want to. I just did it because I wanted to eliminate as much of the stock Fiero vacuum lines as possible when I converted klrblu.

 
quote

What “speedo adaptor circuit” is Fierobsessed talking about?


This one: http://dtcc.cz28.com/fiero/speedo2.gif

 
quote

What pin extractor is needed for the ECM connectors, and where can I find one?


I don't have a part number handy for this tool but you can purchase what you need from NAPA or thru GM parts.

 
quote

In discussing the knock sensor Which category does the 87 2.8 fall into, earlier or later?


Good question. I have seen some 87 blocks with an extra boss already tapped for a knock sensor and some not. If yours only has 1 boss in the rear of the block currently occupied by a coolant drain plug, you can simply remove that plug and install the knock sensor. Only use liquid thread sealant on the knock sensor's threads; DO NOT USE TEFLON TAPE. Torque the knock sensor to 14 ft/lbs.

-ryan


SpideR W MSG #175, 03-31-2007 11:06 AM
      Wow! Very interesting topic here! This sounds like something that I might want to do on my '87, but I do have one question. With the talk of better fuel economy, I got to thinking... what does this whole swap do for power output?



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #176, 03-31-2007 12:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by SpideR W:

Wow! Very interesting topic here! This sounds like something that I might want to do on my '87, but I do have one question. With the talk of better fuel economy, I got to thinking... what does this whole swap do for power output?



Probably nothing, assuming the stock system is tuned correctly for the current engine. Now where the 7730 has the advantage is in the tuning aspect; there are many more things that can be tuned with the 7730 ECM than what can be done with the stock Fiero 2.8 ECM.



SpideR W MSG #177, 03-31-2007 01:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


Probably nothing, assuming the stock system is tuned correctly for the current engine. Now where the 7730 has the advantage is in the tuning aspect; there are many more things that can be tuned with the 7730 ECM than what can be done with the stock Fiero 2.8 ECM.


The reason I was asking is the whole bit where the 3.1s running on that ECM were only getting 140HP, which is what we already get from the 2.8. So then I just got to wondering if it was something in the ECM since they used the same heads and a very similar intake manifold... just hoping that it wasn't the ECM holding those back, but now I'm just guessing

Another question though, did all the gen2s run the digital EGR? I had an '89 6000 a while back and I can't remember for the life of me if it was a digital EGR... What model has the best EGR for this setup?


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #178, 03-31-2007 03:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by SpideR W:


The reason I was asking is the whole bit where the 3.1s running on that ECM were only getting 140HP, which is what we already get from the 2.8. So then I just got to wondering if it was something in the ECM since they used the same heads and a very similar intake manifold... just hoping that it wasn't the ECM holding those back, but now I'm just guessing

Another question though, did all the gen2s run the digital EGR? I had an '89 6000 a while back and I can't remember for the life of me if it was a digital EGR... What model has the best EGR for this setup?


We could devote an entire multi-page thread to GM factory HP ratings on these engines which will explain that certain engines were rated at different power levels depending on what cars they were installed into. But I don't want to get into that here. Lets just say that the factory ECM itself isn't going to be "holding power back" on any engine. I have been doing custom chips for years and have discovered that, in most cases, GM didn't use the ECM programming to hold back any power because this would affect emissions in a negative way -- at least on a stock engine. Instead, they made mechanical changes to the engine, induction, and exhaust systems that did tend to "restrict" power across certain vehicle lines. Therefore, you shouldn't be concerned that swapping in a 7730 ECM will result in going backwards in performance. Even if the stock programming would do this, chances are you are going to get a custom chip done for this conversion anyway so this shouldn't be a factor.

Concerning the EGR system, not all GEN2 engines used the digital EGR. The early GEN-2 engines had a vacuum operated EGR valve that also had a position sensor on it. However, ALL of these cars used the DIS ignition system. The F-body 2.8 cars that had distributors used the standard EGR valve; BUT also used a different computer (not the 7730).

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 03-31-2007).]

project34 MSG #179, 03-31-2007 05:21 PM
      SpideR, Darth's point is well taken. GM sometimes rated the same engine differently. In fact, this happened even in just different years of Fieros.

For example, the `85 and `86 V-6s in Fieros were rated at 140 HP, whereas the `87 and `88 V-6s in Fieros were rated at 135 HP.

GM didn't suddenly get stupid about creating engine horsepower with the `87s and `88s. However, they DID report the horsepower attained by the `87 and `88 V-6 Fiero engines at a different, and lower RPM level (4500 RPM), than they did with the `85s and `86s (5200 RPM).


SpideR W MSG #180, 03-31-2007 11:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


We could devote an entire multi-page thread to GM factory HP ratings on these engines which will explain that certain engines were rated at different power levels depending on what cars they were installed into. But I don't want to get into that here. Lets just say that the factory ECM itself isn't going to be "holding power back" on any engine. I have been doing custom chips for years and have discovered that, in most cases, GM didn't use the ECM programming to hold back any power because this would affect emissions in a negative way -- at least on a stock engine. Instead, they made mechanical changes to the engine, induction, and exhaust systems that did tend to "restrict" power across certain vehicle lines. Therefore, you shouldn't be concerned that swapping in a 7730 ECM will result in going backwards in performance. Even if the stock programming would do this, chances are you are going to get a custom chip done for this conversion anyway so this shouldn't be a factor.

Concerning the EGR system, not all GEN2 engines used the digital EGR. The early GEN-2 engines had a vacuum operated EGR valve that also had a position sensor on it. However, ALL of these cars used the DIS ignition system. The F-body 2.8 cars that had distributors used the standard EGR valve; BUT also used a different computer (not the 7730).



I gotta say man, that definately makes sense... I guess i was just kinda thinking out loud. I didn't intend to hijack your thread either

Anyways, if I read this correctly, the camarobird used the 7730 ECM to control the 3.1. Does this mean that the EGR I'd be looking for is for the camarobird of the same vintage?


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #181, 04-01-2007 12:11 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by SpideR W:


Anyways, if I read this correctly, the camarobird used the 7730 ECM to control the 3.1. Does this mean that the EGR I'd be looking for is for the camarobird of the same vintage?


yes, but any digital EGR valve you find on a 2.8 or 3.1 V6 will work with this computer.




MedRedGT (doyle@rabjohns.com) MSG #182, 04-01-2007 02:29 AM
      Is the "speedo adapter circuit" required with the 7730 for the "speedo" to work correctly?

Capitol City Fiero (capitolcityfieros@gmail.com) MSG #183, 04-01-2007 06:34 PM
      As you know Ryan did the swap for me with this ecm and a 4T60 auto here is the info on my total run:

Starting miles 24,000
Ending Miles 27,754
Miles Run 3,754
Gal. of Gas 101.701

Miles per. Gal 36.912

This is City and Highway Driving combined
and I had 200# on a cargo box on the back

Anybody that has a 3 speed automatic should be looking at this swap as gas prices climb.

email me if you have any questions on how the car drives kilrblu@sbcglobal.net

[This message has been edited by Capitol City Fiero (edited 04-03-2007).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #184, 04-02-2007 01:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by MedRedGT:

Is the "speedo adapter circuit" required with the 7730 for the "speedo" to work correctly?


You only need to hook up and use the "speedo adapter circuit" if one or more of the following conditions are true:

-The vehicle speed sensor in the trans is not a GM 4000 pulse per mile output unit (stock Fiero VSS sensors are 4000ppm)
-If you want to be able to have the speedometer calibrated thru the ECM programming
-If you want the Fiero speedo running off the ECM VSS output signal

Even if your conversion doesn't meet any one of the above conditions, the ECM's VSS input wires should still be spliced into the existing Fiero VSS wiring so the ECM can "see" vehicle speed. The ECM uses this input to determine decelleration fuel enleanment and cutoff protocols, as well as to help determine idle control characteristics (along with some other minor things).

 
quote
Originally posted by Capitol City Fiero:

As you know Ryan did the swap for me with this ecm and a 4T40 auto here is the info on my total run:



Just to make a slight correction, Capitol City Fiero's Fiero has the 4T60 (440-T4) trans, not the 4T40.



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #185, 04-12-2007 10:06 AM
      Well I wired up my 7730 off a '88 2.8L Beretta that went into an '86 with a '95 Camaro 3.4L OHV engine. It started on the first try and idled very rich when warming up (10:1 on the wideband). After it went closed loop it came right down to 14.7:1. So I will need Darth Fiero to burn a new memcal to get it spot on. I have to say it idled beautifully. No surges, no roughness, just friggin incredible. And no SES light either (not yet anyway).

I used the DIS from the '95 3.4L engine. Only the coil pack, ignition module, and low res crank position sensor are used. I had the wiring harness off the 3.4L so getting the right connectors was a matter of cutting and splicing. The high res 24x crank position sensor (the one located on the 3.4L timing chain cover) was not needed, nor was the cam sensor needed. I also disconnected the connector on the cold start injector.

I can't wait to get the wiring cleaned up and ready to road test.

Thanks again to Darth Fiero for telling us about this ECM.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #186, 04-18-2007 06:53 PM
      ...

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 04-24-2008).]

GT2efiero MSG #187, 04-19-2007 01:43 PM
      Just a real quick question, not to get off topic or anything. But i've seen the expected mpg's for the auto's and maybe i just missed it but i've got the 2.8 with the muncie 4 speed, what should i expect as some sort of baseline mpg with this upgrade.
Thanks,


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #188, 04-19-2007 02:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by GT2efiero:

Just a real quick question, not to get off topic or anything. But i've seen the expected mpg's for the auto's and maybe i just missed it but i've got the 2.8 with the muncie 4 speed, what should i expect as some sort of baseline mpg with this upgrade.
Thanks,


With the ECM upgrade alone you may not see any MPG improvement at all, or you may see up to 2mpg improvement over stock because of the lean-cruise mode. The problem with the manual transmissions that GM shipped with the 2.8's is they had really low final drive gearing (~3.65 ratio) which isn't that great for highway fuel economy.


Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #189, 04-28-2007 07:04 PM
      I picked up some parts today to convert my sisters 86SE V6 car. Just wanted to see if I got the right stuff so far. The computer came out of what I THINK was a 92 camaro. It was definately a V6, but I don't know the exact year. The EGR I just found in the engine bay of some random car. It was already cut and unbolted so I figured I'd give it a try.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 05-14-2007).]

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #190, 04-29-2007 10:18 AM
      Looking good. I would highly recommend getting the right tool to separate the pins from the connectors instead of cut/splice/solder. I did the C/S/S and it took all dang day. And it gave me a nice blister from stripping wires (boohoo, I know). Pushing out the pin from the Fiero connector and inserting it in the 7730 connector is slick. Almost all the wire colors on mine were the same. JMHO.

If you are really ambitious you could make a plug and play harness. I guess you would only do this if you wanted to go back to the Fiero ECM in a snap.

Also, I mounted my ECM with the connectors pointed down. Seemed like the way to go as mounting it with the connectors on the side (like Darth Fiero pics) leaves very little room and makes the wiring take a sharp 180* bend. I fabbed a bracket out of 1/8" X 4" aluminum bar stock.

Good luck!


FieroVin (vin.latus@outlook.com) MSG #191, 05-02-2007 10:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Capitol City Fiero:

As you know Ryan did the swap for me with this ecm and a 4T60 auto here is the info on my total run:

Starting miles 24,000
Ending Miles 27,754
Miles Run 3,754
Gal. of Gas 101.701

Miles per. Gal 36.912

This is City and Highway Driving combined
and I had 200# on a cargo box on the back

Anybody that has a 3 speed automatic should be looking at this swap as gas prices climb.

email me if you have any questions on how the car drives kilrblu@sbcglobal.net



Here's a little bump for the thread, I met Capital City Fiero last weekend, and he had nothing but good things to say about this swap and Ryan's work. It was great to meet you, and that is one nice GT you have there.



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #192, 05-02-2007 10:47 PM
      I finally got everything together and took my '86 GT 3.4L with the 7730 for a spin. Ran and idled perfect. I am using the 3.4L DIS too. Now to get that 4t60 and electronic cruise and......

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #193, 05-06-2007 07:26 PM
      Bump

fiero87 (tim.herber@gmail.com) MSG #194, 05-07-2007 08:21 AM
      Hudni wrote:
" I used the DIS from the '95 3.4L engine. Only the coil pack, ignition module, and low res crank position sensor are used. I had the wiring harness off the 3.4L so getting the right connectors was a matter of cutting and splicing. The high res 24x crank position sensor (the one located on the 3.4L timing chain cover) was not needed, nor was the cam sensor needed. I also disconnected the connector on the cold start injector."

How do you get away without using the sensors you mentioned? Does the ecu not look for input from them?


Also, slightly off topic, Can anyone comment on the use of aluminum heads on the iron 60' v-6 block, now that the engine can be run using DIS? I would think that the updated design of the heads would do wonders with what could be done with spark advance tuning, higher compression, etc...?

Thanks


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #195, 05-07-2007 08:55 AM
      The 1227730 ECM does not use the hi-res 24x crank sensor, the cam sensor, or the cold start injector. It is not designed to use these sensors and there are no inputs to the ECM for them. I can report the car runs great with Darth Fiero's new chip. It idles smooth and steady. Starts right away. Runs smooth all the way until it runs out of air at about 5k.

I like the idea of being able to use the 3400 with the aluminum heads and DIS but have not actually seen a picture of what one looks like in the car. What does the intake look like? Is the TB on the correct side? How is the cooling handled?


fiero87 (tim.herber@gmail.com) MSG #196, 05-07-2007 09:14 AM
      Rather than hijack this thread with really good info and discussion, I think i'll start a new one and see what people can come up with...

87SEV6Reborn05 (crashdocs@gmail.com) MSG #197, 05-07-2007 11:22 PM
      I just used a paper clip to pop the wires out of the connector....

fiero87 (tim.herber@gmail.com) MSG #198, 05-10-2007 06:51 AM
      Does anyone know if tunerpro or tunercat has the software to program factory parts (purge or egr) to control aftermarket accessories? I know in my Honda I have a modified ecu and I have the purge outputs triggering my water injection. Just thinking maybe i could use them to trigger n20.

Thanks


Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #199, 05-10-2007 11:42 AM
      sorry if I missed it earlier in the thread, but what year Beretta's can you pull these parts out of?
(saw at the beginning of the thread 92?)

my friend has a dead 93 berretta, will it work for anything?

digital egr?

ecm?

knock sensor?

anything else I need?

[This message has been edited by Madess (edited 05-10-2007).]

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #200, 05-10-2007 05:46 PM
      Rockauto lists the 1227730 as the ECM for the '93 Beretta so you are good there.

Add the digital EVAP purge valve to your list and (if you want) an electronic cruise control.


Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #201, 05-14-2007 12:26 AM
      I started workin on this. I have some really good/easy solutions to a few of the issues. Just blew the isuzu in my 3800sc so its a 2-3 day setback.











This allows to go back to stock if there are any issues. I've also come up with a really neat/cheap/simple egr solution.

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 05-14-2007).]

FieroVin (vin.latus@outlook.com) MSG #202, 05-15-2007 06:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:

I started workin on this. I have some really good/easy solutions to a few of the issues. Just blew the isuzu in my 3800sc so its a 2-3 day setback.


This allows to go back to stock if there are any issues. I've also come up with a really neat/cheap/simple egr solution.



Looks interesting so far... tell us more.



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #203, 05-16-2007 09:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fiero87:

Does anyone know if tunerpro or tunercat has the software to program factory parts (purge or egr) to control aftermarket accessories? I know in my Honda I have a modified ecu and I have the purge outputs triggering my water injection. Just thinking maybe i could use them to trigger n20.

Thanks


I don't have an answer to your question but I like the idea. Maybe someone can answer?


Synthesis (synssins@gmail.com) MSG #204, 05-16-2007 11:35 AM
      Ryan, I have full access to a CNC machine mill, and would love to get the design for the plate from you. If anyone has drawn it up in CAD already, it would help tremendously. I may be able to have these milled and ready to roll in a few weeks if I can get the design from you.

FieroVin (vin.latus@outlook.com) MSG #205, 05-16-2007 12:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Synthesis:

Ryan, I have full access to a CNC machine mill, and would love to get the design for the plate from you. If anyone has drawn it up in CAD already, it would help tremendously. I may be able to have these milled and ready to roll in a few weeks if I can get the design from you.


I think Ohio86se was working on a drawing, check around page 3 or 4.



brandon87gt (traylor88@yahoo.com) MSG #206, 05-20-2007 11:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:

I started workin on this. I have some really good/easy solutions to a few of the issues. Just blew the isuzu in my 3800sc so its a 2-3 day setback.
This allows to go back to stock if there are any issues. I've also come up with a really neat/cheap/simple egr solution.



BUMP. Curious what your EGR solution is? Nice harness there, I think that is the way to go, that way its a quick swap back if you really need to for some reason.


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #207, 05-21-2007 09:05 AM
      I'm going to cut the old fitting off the 3.4L and use the digital EGR from that same car.

rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #208, 05-30-2007 11:43 PM
      Couple of questions here.
1. Has anyone been able to make the egr adapter from the drawing?
2. Will this ECM "switch on" a heated O2 sensor?
3 What exactly is needed for the conversion to the digital evap and cruise control?

thanks


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #209, 05-31-2007 12:40 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by rjblaze:

Couple of questions here.
1. Has anyone been able to make the egr adapter from the drawing?
2. Will this ECM "switch on" a heated O2 sensor?
3 What exactly is needed for the conversion to the digital evap and cruise control?

thanks


1) Can't answer that one because I had a friend make an EGR adapter using a drawing I put togther on paper.

2) Heated O2 sensors don't need to be "switched on" by the ECM. The heating element in the O2 sensor gets it's power directly from the IGNITION 1 electrical circuit (same circuit that powers the injectors, egr valve, etc).

3) The only item needed for the conversion to computer controlled evap is an evap purge solenoid. This solenoid should be installed in the larger vacuum line that goes from the evap canister to the engine. The electronic cruise control gets installed in a stand-alone capacity; the only thing it needs to see from the ECM is a 4000ppm vehicle speed signal (the 7730 ECM has an output for this).

-ryan


rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #210, 06-01-2007 11:54 PM
      Thanks ryan....I will be looking for your help when I finally get the ecm swapped in my '86

Daviero MSG #211, 06-06-2007 09:35 PM
      Ryan, when installing the digital cruise, should the 4000ppm input for the cruise module be connected to the PCM speedo output (which is also the input to the conversion circuit) or should it be connected to the output of the conversion circuit (input to the speedo), or does it matter? Also, is the purpose of the conversion circuit to boost the voltage peaks of the PCM speedo out signal?
Thanks,
Dave.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #212, 06-06-2007 11:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daviero:

Ryan, when installing the digital cruise, should the 4000ppm input for the cruise module be connected to the PCM speedo output (which is also the input to the conversion circuit) or should it be connected to the output of the conversion circuit (input to the speedo), or does it matter? Also, is the purpose of the conversion circuit to boost the voltage peaks of the PCM speedo out signal?
Thanks,
Dave.



Directly to the ECM/PCM.


FieroVin (vin.latus@outlook.com) MSG #213, 06-18-2007 02:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

Got a spreadsheet put together for the wiring conversion. It can be viewed/downloaded here:

http://www.gmtuners.com/files/Fiero2.8_to_7730.pdf

I have wiring diagrams and pinouts for both the Fiero 2.8 ECM's as well as the 90-92 Camaro 3.1 ECM available for download at my website.

-ryan


Ryan,

Forgive me if you've answered this, but I did a quick scan of the thread and didn't see the answer. I was looking at your spreadsheet and was wondering what I would need to change for DIS on my 3.4 as far as the pinouts.

Vin


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #214, 06-18-2007 03:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroVin:


Ryan,

Forgive me if you've answered this, but I did a quick scan of the thread and didn't see the answer. I was looking at your spreadsheet and was wondering what I would need to change for DIS on my 3.4 as far as the pinouts.

Vin


If you are going to be using a Distributorless Ignition System on your engine, then you should wire up the 7730 ECM using diagrams from a 1990-92 Chevy Beretta 3.1 MFI V6 car. You should be able to use some of the information from the spreadsheet I made, but not all of it is going to correctly correlate to the DIS system. In that respect, use the information from the Beretta diagrams instead.

-ryan


FieroVin (vin.latus@outlook.com) MSG #215, 06-18-2007 04:51 PM
      Thanks,

Does this look like the right one?

http://www.spudgames.com/bstuff/ecmp1.jpg

http://www.spudgames.com/bstuff/ecmp2.jpg


Team Race-Tech MSG #216, 06-18-2007 08:43 PM
      hello evryone, I have a question. Could I use the 1992 Syclone PCM and prom on the fiero 2.8L engine. Wire it up accordingly and use the correct sensors and possibly have some one make a chip that will work with a Vortech supercharger??? Let me know if this is possible.

joe


81tta (ddibble19@hotmail.com) MSG #217, 06-18-2007 10:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Team Race-Tech:

hello evryone, I have a question. Could I use the 1992 Syclone PCM and prom on the fiero 2.8L engine. Wire it up accordingly and use the correct sensors and possibly have some one make a chip that will work with a Vortech supercharger??? Let me know if this is possible.

joe


Very possible. I have a 7749 ECM wired up to my Duke. Not so much for boost on the 4cyl. I'm trying to keep the ECMs common between the Fiero and my other boosted car. Just wire it up, install a 2-bar MAP sensor and start tuning!


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #218, 06-19-2007 07:55 AM
      DarthFiero,

How much to fly you to Mass to convert to this ECM, add DIS (I have a 3400 system in a box in the basement) and tune my car. I'm running an 87 computer with an Audi 5000 turbo from the 80's and an 80's Buick module to adjust timing based on the knock sensor on a 3.1 stroker.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #219, 06-19-2007 12:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroVin:

Thanks,

Does this look like the right one?

http://www.spudgames.com/bstuff/ecmp1.jpg

http://www.spudgames.com/bstuff/ecmp2.jpg


No, those look like the diagrams for a Quad-4. I should have what you need on my website at www.gmtuners.com


 
quote
Originally posted by Team Race-Tech:

hello evryone, I have a question. Could I use the 1992 Syclone PCM and prom on the fiero 2.8L engine. Wire it up accordingly and use the correct sensors and possibly have some one make a chip that will work with a Vortech supercharger??? Let me know if this is possible.

joe


Joe, that is exactly the computer and chip program I would use if I were to build a boosted 2.8 V6 with a distributor. It would require some custom tuning tho.


 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

DarthFiero,

How much to fly you to Mass to convert to this ECM, add DIS (I have a 3400 system in a box in the basement) and tune my car. I'm running an 87 computer with an Audi 5000 turbo from the 80's and an 80's Buick module to adjust timing based on the knock sensor on a 3.1 stroker.


lou, please email me at sp@gmtuners.com so we can discuss this further.

-ryan


Team Race-Tech MSG #220, 06-19-2007 09:30 PM
      Hi Ryan, would you be able to make one for me if I provided the info you needed and also if you were able to source the parts too??

thanks
Joe


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #221, 06-20-2007 09:45 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Team Race-Tech:

Hi Ryan, would you be able to make one for me if I provided the info you needed and also if you were able to source the parts too??

thanks
Joe


Please email me at sp@gmtuners.com so we can discuss this.


FieroVin (vin.latus@outlook.com) MSG #222, 06-22-2007 12:00 AM
      Hey guys, I thought I'd share my attempt at an EGR adapter. Fierofreak00's EGR adapter was the inspiration, the only difference is that I cut down and used the the stand-off from the original 2.8 egr that way they are both cast pieces. My Dad actually did the welding... thanks Dad!



We opened up the 2.8 piece and after cutting down the 3.4 stand-off we set it inside like so.




Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #223, 06-26-2007 11:10 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:

I started workin on this. I have some really good/easy solutions to a few of the issues. Just blew the isuzu in my 3800sc so its a 2-3 day setback.











This allows to go back to stock if there are any issues. I've also come up with a really neat/cheap/simple egr solution.



I am getting ready to do this exact thing - so, I gotta ask: does it fit in the existing area? there is not much room under the center console


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #224, 06-26-2007 11:48 AM
      I turned mine so the connectors were facing down instead of to the side. There is actually a fair amount of room under that back center section of the console, below the ECM. Enough to allow the converted wiring harness. If you mount it so the wires come out the side as Darth Fiero did, you need to make your leads long enough to reach below the ECM. The side area is kinda tight.

perry rhodan (fiero_gtr@hotmail.com) MSG #225, 06-28-2007 07:31 PM
      Does the broadcast number of the memcal on the ECM is an important thing to watch or the source car that the ecm came from depending of the application?

Like myself...if I want to use this ECM with my 3400 swap (3400 dressed with all Fiero 2.8 engine parts, head, intake etc) can I use any source car 730 ECM or I need one coming specifically from an 2.8 or 3.1l car or with a specific memcal number?


Edit: I didnt read carefully the middle pages of the entire thread..sorry for this repetitive question.

[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 06-29-2007).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #226, 06-30-2007 01:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by perry rhodan:

Does the broadcast number of the memcal on the ECM is an important thing to watch or the source car that the ecm came from depending of the application?

Like myself...if I want to use this ECM with my 3400 swap (3400 dressed with all Fiero 2.8 engine parts, head, intake etc) can I use any source car 730 ECM or I need one coming specifically from an 2.8 or 3.1l car or with a specific memcal number?


Edit: I didnt read carefully the middle pages of the entire thread..sorry for this repetitive question.



You can use any 7730 in your car regardless if it came from a car that had a 4cyl, V6, or V8. HOWEVER, the only mem-cal that will work is one from a V6; so if you can, get an ECM from a car that had a 2.8 or 3.1 V6; otherwise you might need to buy a new mem-cal from GM to use (they cost about $100).

-ryan


perry rhodan (fiero_gtr@hotmail.com) MSG #227, 06-30-2007 09:07 AM
      Thanks Ryan.

So if I recapitulate, I have a V6 3400, with all Fiero stuff like head, intake, plenum, distributor, cruise control etc...exactly like a factory Fiero..just the engine block has changed. So here is the thing I'm sure of:

- I need to use, preferably, an ECM that come from a V6 application.

- I will need to purchase a knock sensor that come from the same model/year/engine of the car that came the ECM to put on the engine block

- To help retrofitting my old ECM, I can use the method Jncomutt had used with a 7730 pigtail and an old Fiero ECM connector for the wiring.

- Also to help fixing the ECM in place I can use an 87-88 Fiero L4 ECM holding rack.

Is this all correct?

Now for the more confusing aspect of this "swap" that I'm not really sure:

-For the EGR, can I still use the original Fiero EGR and just have the chip reprogrammed or that involve something else?

-Maybe you will suggest me that I'm better going with the digital EGR for the reliability and better performance from it?

-Can I still use the original cruise control setup of the Fiero without using the this function/module included inside the 7730 ECM ?

-Ryan, are you able to reprogram my chip for my application and at what price (you can reply by PM for this one )

Do I miss somethig else before I go ahead in this?

Many Thanks


PS: in which type of ECM is the 7730? a C3 or newer P4 ?

[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 06-30-2007).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #228, 07-01-2007 10:39 AM
      Hey Perry, I will answer your questions below...

 
quote
Originally posted by perry rhodan:

So if I recapitulate, I have a V6 3400, with all Fiero stuff like head, intake, plenum, distributor, cruise control etc...exactly like a factory Fiero..just the engine block has changed. So here is the thing I'm sure of:

- I need to use, preferably, an ECM that come from a V6 application.


You can use ANY 1227730 ECM. The mem-cal that contains the EPROM chip, knock sensor interface module, and limp-mode fuel backup chips needs to be from a V6 car <-- this is the key component.


 
quote

- I will need to purchase a knock sensor that come from the same model/year/engine of the car that came the ECM to put on the engine block


The knock sensor you ultimately use needs to match the mem-cal you are using in the ECM.

 
quote

- To help retrofitting my old ECM, I can use the method Jncomutt had used with a 7730 pigtail and an old Fiero ECM connector for the wiring.


Yes that is an option.

 
quote

- Also to help fixing the ECM in place I can use an 87-88 Fiero L4 ECM holding rack.


Yes.

 
quote

Now for the more confusing aspect of this "swap" that I'm not really sure:

-For the EGR, can I still use the original Fiero EGR and just have the chip reprogrammed or that involve something else?


No, the original vacuum operated Fiero EGR will not work with this swap/chip programming.

 
quote

-Maybe you will suggest me that I'm better going with the digital EGR for the reliability and better performance from it?


Nothing to do with performance, but experience has shown that the failure rate of the digital EGRs is much less than all the components needed to make a stock Fiero EGR system work. Again, the reason why a digital EGR must be used with the 7730 swap is because the 7730 is programmed to only work with the digital EGR (at least with the code masks we are talking about)

 
quote

-Can I still use the original cruise control setup of the Fiero without using the this function/module included inside the 7730 ECM ?


The 7730 has no cruise control internal functions. You can leave the stock Fiero cruise control in-tact and working as-is.

 
quote

-Ryan, are you able to reprogram my chip for my application and at what price (you can reply by PM for this one )


Current pricing I charge for reprogramming your stock mem-cal is $50. Or there is a mem-cal adapter option for $95. For more info, please email me at sp@gmtuners.com

-ryan


 
quote

PS: in which type of ECM is the 7730? a C3 or newer P4 ?


P4


perry rhodan (fiero_gtr@hotmail.com) MSG #229, 07-01-2007 11:55 AM
      Great! that clarify numerous things. Now everything is more clear.

At the start of my swap project, I was supposed to use an '85 V6 ECM because of the provision to use a knock sensor ( I'm supposed to put a supercharger on my swap in the future). But the ability to use one with the 7730 , the better engine control and the "ease" of this ECM swap, let me no doubt about what I will have to do with the ECM...go for the 7730.

And the fact that the speedo can be recalibrated inside the ECM is a great thing, since my wheel setup will be a little bit larger in diameter , so I will be able to correct my speed reading.

Now I'm waiting for a 1227730 ECM from a 3.1L Corsica .

Now I will also chase a digital EGR and a section of the exhaust pipe to help me make an "adaptor" to fit on my exhaust. For the EGR, do I need one specific model or just looking for V6 digital EGR that is used with any 7730 ECM equipped car?

Do you have a shematic of the vacuum line before and after? I think a "factory" like shematic exist, but if you can publish one with the modification needed for the vacuum line, it will be nice.

Oh! and the fact that I will use a 5spd manual tranny will not cause any problem with this ECM swap? (since I saw mainly discussion for automatic transmission in this thread)

I will contact you by email in the next days to know other details.

Thanks

Yan

[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 07-01-2007).]

LZeppelin513 (bjamestate@gmail.com) MSG #230, 07-01-2007 09:53 PM
      i second the vacuum details, I baught my car without an engine so vacuum line data/map would help tremendously!

LZeppelin513 (bjamestate@gmail.com) MSG #231, 07-01-2007 10:00 PM
      oops double post

[This message has been edited by LZeppelin513 (edited 07-02-2007).]

perry rhodan (fiero_gtr@hotmail.com) MSG #232, 07-01-2007 10:35 PM
      I sent you an email LZeppelin513 ...with two vaccum diagram.

LZeppelin513 (bjamestate@gmail.com) MSG #233, 07-02-2007 02:53 AM
      Hey man thanks a lot, whose will deffinetly come in usefull! plus fof you!

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #234, 07-02-2007 07:03 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
You can use ANY 1227730 ECM. The mem-cal that contains the EPROM chip, knock sensor interface module, and limp-mode fuel backup chips needs to be from a V6 car <-- this is the key component.


Is this a must because the knock module in the chip for the V6 is different from that found in a 4 or 8 cylinder? or is that a general statement for someone who does not have the ability to reprogram the Epromm? I've removed the prom from the calpak and installed a socket for the chip, if the ESC data has to be addressed to I have a correction to make considering I don't know what size engine my chip is from.


Gwain (mjfinfla@gmail.com) MSG #235, 07-02-2007 08:21 AM
      I could supply those EGR adapter plates out of my shop. In addition to becoming a Fiero "addict" I do CNC machining for a number of industries, including custom motorcycle builders.

From what I've seen on this thread, looks like they could be made easily.

If anyone would like to pm me the drawings, files, sketches they have, I'll figure a price and post it here. I can either make them and supply them, or supply them through someone else who'd like to handle ordering and shipping.

Marc in sunny Titusville, FL
85 Sport w/V6 transplant
85 GT just newly on the road
84 SE loaded, son's car

[This message has been edited by Gwain (edited 07-02-2007).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #236, 07-02-2007 12:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


Is this a must because the knock module in the chip for the V6 is different from that found in a 4 or 8 cylinder? or is that a general statement for someone who does not have the ability to reprogram the Epromm? I've removed the prom from the calpak and installed a socket for the chip, if the ESC data has to be addressed to I have a correction to make considering I don't know what size engine my chip is from.



It's not just the knock module on the mem-cal, it's the backup fuel chips which are the key. You cannot use 4 or 8 cyl limp-mode/backup fuel chips (on the mem-cal) with a 6 cyl engine. You must use a V6 mem-cal with it's V6 limp-mode/backup fuel chips.

Concerning vacuum lines, if you are asking about what to do about the Factory Fiero EGR vacuum system once you install the Digital EGR valve, all the Fiero stuff gets removed and ports for it plugged. That's it. The EVAP system has been addressed earlier in this thread.


perry rhodan (fiero_gtr@hotmail.com) MSG #237, 07-02-2007 12:29 PM
      Thanks Ryan. You've got an email from me. Just pass over the question you alreary answered here (like the EGR/Vacuum related question).

I will have to print all this thread and read it very carefully.

[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 07-02-2007).]

DandRauto MSG #238, 07-12-2007 02:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Gwain:

I could supply those EGR adapter plates out of my shop. In addition to becoming a Fiero "addict" I do CNC machining for a number of industries, including custom motorcycle builders.

From what I've seen on this thread, looks like they could be made easily.

If anyone would like to pm me the drawings, files, sketches they have, I'll figure a price and post it here. I can either make them and supply them, or supply them through someone else who'd like to handle ordering and shipping.

Marc in sunny Titusville, FL
85 Sport w/V6 transplant
85 GT just newly on the road
84 SE loaded, son's car




Any update on Marc's offer and request?


perry rhodan (fiero_gtr@hotmail.com) MSG #239, 07-12-2007 03:09 PM
      Thanks for all the guys that took time to reply to my questions.

I finally manage to pick:

1227730 ECM from an 1989 Cavalier Z24
Digital EGR from an 1993 3.1 MPFI Cutlass Sierra Supreme with some of the wires and the connector
EGR adaptor from an 1995 3.4 Firebird (to be modified to fit the Fiero exaust like Fierovin have done)
ECM pigtail to do the adaptor harness (like Jncomutt)
1988 Fiero 2M4 ECM plastic support

Just FYI, to help other to not make the same mistake I made with the EGR...take only the 3 coils EGR valve. Some V6 car equipped with the 7730 ECM, generally the year comprised between 1988 and 1990, have a vacuum controlled/ ECM read EGR valve. They have near the same look as the vaccum EGR on the Fiero, with a wiring harness on it. Its not the good one.

I'm still missing some parts for my engine conversion, so this "ECM swap" will not be functionnal until next summer I think. But I'm eager to see it running without the miss associated with the old Fiero ECM.

If everything works I will have to give away my 1985 V6 Fiero ECM, and the ESC module that was previously purchased to do some of the function that the 7730 will now take care.


timgray (timgray.geo@yahoo.com) MSG #240, 07-12-2007 05:49 PM
      will the stock $88 memcal work with a 3.4 swap? or will it no matter what need tweaking to make it work decently?

the more I am thinking about this I believe this upgrade really needs to be a part of my 3.4 +4t60 upgrade that is sitting in the garage.


perry rhodan (fiero_gtr@hotmail.com) MSG #241, 07-12-2007 08:31 PM
      I do it for my 3.4 (in fact a 3400 dressed with Fiero intake and all). I will not make the "tuning" and "programming" myself, but I think it will need some tweaking and adjustment, just like it will have to be necessary with a 3.4 swap with the wiring harness and ECM from a Fiero.

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #242, 07-12-2007 09:48 PM
      I used the 3.4L DIS with my 7730 swap and ran the car with the stock memcal just to see if it would. It actually started and idled better than the Fiero ECM with distributor (and programmed chip). It was very rich until the car went closed loop. Then it idled right at 14.7:1 on the wideband. It wouldn't rev though. It would go rich and bog. Once I received my Darth Fiero chip all was well.

PaulJK MSG #243, 07-15-2007 03:53 AM
      Ryan, can you please PM me a quote on cost for installing this ECU and a 4 speed auto trans into a stock 86SE with existing stock auto trans ? i will need you to supply the 4 speed auto trans and the new ECU. Thank You

Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #244, 07-20-2007 11:08 AM
      I thought I posted this yesterday? strange, maybe I didnt hit submit...

couple quick questions, if they have been asked and answered, forgive me.

first - knock sensor, as long as the car is the same year and engine, you are good with the knock sensor right - I am assuming auto vs stick doesnt matter?

second - knock sensor and digital egr wiring? where do you wire them too?

thanks
Matt


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #245, 07-20-2007 11:42 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Madess:

I thought I posted this yesterday? strange, maybe I didnt hit submit...

couple quick questions, if they have been asked and answered, forgive me.

first - knock sensor, as long as the car is the same year and engine, you are good with the knock sensor right - I am assuming auto vs stick doesnt matter?

second - knock sensor and digital egr wiring? where do you wire them too?

thanks
Matt


The knock sensor you use must match the mem-cal used in the computer (both have to be from same vehicle/engine). If you get me the BCC code off the mem-cal you have (see a pic here: http://www.gmtuners.com/eprom/BCC.jpg ) I can tell you what vehicle it came out of. Manual/auto trans does NOT matter.

The knock sensor uses one wire that must be run directly to the 7730 ECM. The digital EGR has 4 wires; 1 gets connected to an ignition 12v + power source (stock Fiero EGR solenoid power will work) and the other 3 get connected directly to the 7730 ECM.

-ryan


rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #246, 07-20-2007 02:39 PM
      I think my answer is in here somewhere but I can't find it. Can the 7730 be used for a 3.4 TDC swap?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #247, 07-21-2007 01:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by rjblaze:

I think my answer is in here somewhere but I can't find it. Can the 7730 be used for a 3.4 TDC swap?


Yes but why? The amount of tuning required to get the 3.4 DOHC engine running good on a 7730 would be very time consuming and probably not worthwhile, especially considering when you can start with a 3.4 DOHC ECM that is already programmed to work with the engine.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-21-2007).]

merlot566jka (merlot566jka@yahoo.com) MSG #248, 07-28-2007 11:48 PM
      Ryan,

I got some access to the net for the next day or so. i found the diagrams and pinouts on your site. are the beretta and jbody harness going to be the same almost?

whats this power steering input to the ecm for?

the high and low vss inputs, i assume, are just like the ones shown in your camaro distributor 7730 diagram? no need for the low?

thank you ryan, i may have more questions, if you dont mind, ill email them to you!


Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #249, 07-29-2007 12:07 AM
      I'm building a conversion harness right now using beretta connectors. There are some wires that are missing and some of the colors are different but they can be used. Its not too big deal whether you use the camaro or beretta since you have to move stuff and soldier it all together anyways.

perry rhodan (fiero_gtr@hotmail.com) MSG #250, 07-29-2007 08:34 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Jncomutt:

I'm building a conversion harness right now using beretta connectors. There are some wires that are missing and some of the colors are different but they can be used. Its not too big deal whether you use the camaro or beretta since you have to move stuff and soldier it all together anyways.



Did you had trouble with the one you made in May (see your previous post) or this is another try to something different?


Jncomutt (jncomutt@hotmail.com) MSG #251, 07-29-2007 10:03 AM
     

[This message has been edited by Jncomutt (edited 09-09-2007).]

rmcmsw (rmcmsw@sbcglobal.net) MSG #252, 07-29-2007 01:37 PM
      I have a 2.8 1989/90 Fiero V-6 engine installed in my 86 GT. I purchased this engine back in 1992 from a salvage yard in Detroit that had purchased all remaining items from Pontiac. This engine was still on it's original assembly-line pallet.

It had an anti-knock sensor installed on it, no cold-start injector ( the hole on the lower manifold was plugged with a softplug and the fuel-rail did'nt have the provision for the 7th injector), and all the vacuum bosses were plugged with rubber caps for the EGR system and it had very few vacuum lines. The EGR system was what GM called the digital EGR like the one you've used. I have the original EGR mounting bracket. It is a cast-iron block which mounted on the firewall side head (facing the left side of the engine) and the SS flex tubing hooked-up to the bottom side of the upper manifold like an original V-6 and the exhaust side went to the closest exhaust runner and had a fitting welded to it.

I asked the GM area service rep about this engine and he said the reason for discontinuing the cold-start system was it was causing engine fires. The cold start injector was mounted to the manifold using one small bolt and a rubber "O" ring which would dry up from heat and crack thus allowing fuel to be sprayed all over the engine from a cold start-up; thus Fire! This service rep was the one who wrote the Fiero "How To" manual supplied with every car. One has to crank the engine a couple more cranks for a cold start but is not a big deal. I don't even think about it anymore.

At least now I know which ECM to use and can finally use this EGR system. I kept all the parts in a box all these years. Also, this engine is a 3.1. I crossed referenced the crankshaft part number and it is correct for a 3.1. The pistons are dished in like the 3.1 pistons but cross-referencing the part numbers, I came up with a "part number not found." The part number on the TB was different as well but it looks almost the same as the one that came with our cars. The wiring harness for the injectors was slightly different with a connector that I couldn't use so I installed an 88 harness.

The engine looks a lot cleaner without all those vacuum lines and plumbing used for the EGR.
Thanks for putting this post on the network.


perry rhodan (fiero_gtr@hotmail.com) MSG #253, 07-29-2007 04:58 PM
      Hey! picture please!!!

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #254, 07-30-2007 12:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by merlot566jka:

Ryan,

I got some access to the net for the next day or so. i found the diagrams and pinouts on your site. are the beretta and jbody harness going to be the same almost?

whats this power steering input to the ecm for?

the high and low vss inputs, i assume, are just like the ones shown in your camaro distributor 7730 diagram? no need for the low?

thank you ryan, i may have more questions, if you dont mind, ill email them to you!


Beretta and J Body cars will be significantly different than the F-body in respect to the ignition system. ALL FWD V6 cars that used the 7730 ECM had a distributorless ignition system. Like the Fiero 2.8, the F-body 3.1 had a distributor; so that part of the wiring would be different. Everything else is very similar.

If your engine in your Fiero is using a distributorless ignition system (DIS), then you should use the 1991-93 L & J body (Beretta, Cavalier, etc) 3.1 MFI wiring diagrams.

If your engine in your Fiero has a distributor, then you should use the 1990-92 F-body 3.1 diagrams or my special wiring instructions for this conversion.

Concerning the power steering switch input, since the Fiero doesn't have power steering, you don't need to worry about this.

The hi/low VSS inputs to the ECM should be wired up accordingly to the stock Fiero VSS (same wire colors). You don't need to run the Fiero's speedometer off the 7730 ECM if you are still using a stock Fiero transmission. If this is the case all you need to do is simply tie-in the 7730's VSS input wires to the existing Fiero VSS wiring.

If you have any other questions feel free to email them to me.

-ryan

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-30-2007).]

CAB (chuckbrunkhart@udata.com) MSG #255, 08-01-2007 10:02 PM
      Darth, I have a 3100 SFI from a 2001 Malibu and have connected to 7730 with a chip redone by yourself. Which selection of freescan would I monitor the operation of ECM? GM Pontaic 3.2 or 410B? If I choose the wrong one what would happen?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #256, 08-02-2007 02:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by CAB:

Darth, I have a 3100 SFI from a 2001 Malibu and have connected to 7730 with a chip redone by yourself. Which selection of freescan would I monitor the operation of ECM? GM Pontaic 3.2 or 410B? If I choose the wrong one what would happen?



Try "Pontiac 3.2". If that doesn't work, try downloading the TTS Datamaster scanner program for the 89 Grand Prix 3.1 Turbo ($8F) and see if that works.

-ryan


perry rhodan (fiero_gtr@hotmail.com) MSG #257, 08-06-2007 07:07 PM
      Grasiously from rmcmsw pennocks member, I will post the picures of the digital EGR that was supposed to find its way into the Fiero engine bay later in '88 or in '89.

Its a remote EGR....I think its a very nice setup since it keep the EGR more cooler than if it was located right on the crossover pipe. This setup is similar to the other GM V6 in the fact that it put it away from the exhaust pipe and its direct heat. Look how the EGR is hooked directly at the exhaust manifold between the exhaust port.


[This message has been edited by perry rhodan (edited 08-06-2007).]

Longshots7 (jeffrey.reedy@us.army.mil) MSG #258, 08-14-2007 03:43 AM
      I'm new to posting but have been using the forum for a long time and have been watching this thread for awhile. I'm ready to try it. Does anyone still have one of these around with the memcal and knock sensor? I searched Ebay but have not had luck finding one complete. I have an 87 GT with a 3.4 in it. It still uses a distributor. If anyone can help me find the parts I can prolly do this, but I just don't know what I'm looking for.

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #259, 08-14-2007 09:08 AM
      You can post a WTB in the Mall section of the Forum. Or look back to the earlier pages and find Darth's list of cars that came with the 7730 ECM then go to the junkyard and get one yourself. Get one from a V6 car as that has the proper memcal.

rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #260, 08-31-2007 02:04 PM
      First off this needs a BUMP!

Second: I don't want to start any arguements but, in another thread by ryan.hess
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/070626.html
he states that the 7730 will control a 4T60E transmission because it is already set up for it.

In this thread you state that the 7730 will not control any "E" transmissions.

I have access to a good 4T60E transmission and know that it needs to be controlled by the ecm (PCM) electronically. I really don't want to spend $700 to $1500 for a separate controller.

I also read somewhere on the forum that a 3800 pcm can be converted into a controller...is this right?

I am planning on a complete 3400 swap N/A in the beginning, and then maybe turbo later.
Any ideas?


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #261, 08-31-2007 02:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by rjblaze:
....
I am planning on a complete 3400 swap N/A in the beginning, and then maybe turbo later.
Any ideas?


well, if you are planning the full alum head 3400, you will be using the ECM - and that pretty much walks in the ability to use the 4t60


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #262, 09-01-2007 01:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by rjblaze:

Second: I don't want to start any arguements but, in another thread by ryan.hess
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/070626.html
he states that the 7730 will control a 4T60E transmission because it is already set up for it.

In this thread you state that the 7730 will not control any "E" transmissions.



According to information I have on-hand for the 7730 ECM, I don't see how the it can control a 4T60-E. If ryan.hess has come up with a way for the 7730 ECM to control both a 4T60-E and the engine at the same time, then I would like to see how he has done it. What code mask is he using?



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #263, 09-01-2007 02:02 PM
      Would the 7730 ECM work with the magnetic pickup VSS units in the FWD Getrag transmissions? Apparently, the FWD Getrags send their VSS signal to the ECM, instead of straight to the gauge.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #264, 09-01-2007 02:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Would the 7730 ECM work with the magnetic pickup VSS units in the FWD Getrag transmissions? Apparently, the FWD Getrags send their VSS signal to the ECM, instead of straight to the gauge.


Yes. Originally the 7730 ECM was used in vehicles where the VSS signal went directly to the ECM first, then the ECM sent a 4000ppm signal out to the speedo and cruise control.


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #265, 09-01-2007 03:35 PM
      Thanks! So when I swap in the FWD Getrag, I might as well swap in the 7730 ECM as well. I think we'll be doing business soon.

rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #266, 09-02-2007 11:03 AM
      Thanks Darth! I guess I'll just have to ask him.

Would it be easier if I just got the entire harness and computer rom my donor of the complete 3400?
I am not really crazy about OBDII and would like to turbo this thing in the future, so to me the 7730 seems like it would be a better choice.


Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #267, 09-14-2007 10:48 AM
      anyone selling their digital egr adapters?

Mister MSG #268, 09-24-2007 02:29 PM
      Up...

ohio86se (rick44314@gmail.com) MSG #269, 09-26-2007 12:50 PM
      I actually have a cad file I made detailing the adapter plate.
I will post later tonite



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #270, 09-26-2007 12:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by rjblaze:

Thanks Darth! I guess I'll just have to ask him.

Would it be easier if I just got the entire harness and computer rom my donor of the complete 3400?
I am not really crazy about OBDII and would like to turbo this thing in the future, so to me the 7730 seems like it would be a better choice.


Sorry, I missed this post...

You can use the OBD-2 computer if you want or you can use the 7730. The nice thing about the 7730 is we can use the Turbo Grand Prix code in it with the 3400 and it is already set up for boost. The OBD-2 PCM can be reprogrammed for boost but it will require more work (not only to reprogram, but to install into the car as well).




rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #271, 09-26-2007 10:41 PM
      Thanks again Darth!

That's kinda' what I thought. I am in the middle of purchasing a controller for a 4T65E that was originally made by Ryan Hess. It sounds kinda' cool with full manual shifting (I hope to use buttons on the steering wheel like my NOS button).

It really looks like I can have my cake AND eat it too!

YEEEEEEEEEHAWWWWWWWWWW!!!!


Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #272, 09-27-2007 11:13 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ohio86se:

I actually have a cad file I made detailing the adapter plate.
I will post later tonite



that would be very helpful

I am not the most knowledgable person when it comes to machining, fabricating and tooling.

question - I am assuming I could take this to a machine shop and they could create it?

or Even better - could I create it myself, and if so what tools would I need? What type of metal should it be made out of?

thank you, Matt


cropduster MSG #273, 09-29-2007 09:02 AM
      What other cars use the Fiero ECM??? I want to make an adapter harness but there are no Fiero's in the junkyards around here that I could find. Besides, I would kinda hate to butcher a good ECM in case someone might need one
This is my DD so I need to be able to do this in a day if possible and I've also got to weld in an EGR base....



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #274, 09-29-2007 09:24 AM
      I looked up a site that showed only the L44 Vin 9 had the 1227170 ECM. That is the '86-'88 V6 ECM used in Fiero's. The '85 ECM is unique to '85 (1226869) and the '84 was a Duke. I would bet money that you could find one with the same wiring connectors since you are only needing the female parts.

Or post a WTB in the Mall. Or get one from the Fiero Factory or Kick Hill. Both good junkyards.


cropduster MSG #275, 09-29-2007 09:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

I looked up a site that showed only the L44 Vin 9 had the 1227170 ECM. .


A reverse lookup??? Cool. What site is that??
BTW, thanks for the info, guess I'll have to kill a Fiero ECM


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #276, 09-29-2007 09:58 AM
      Here is where I find ECM info:
Fiero specific: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/fieroprom.html
Older ECM's: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/c3xref.html
Newer ECM's: http://www.cruzers.com/~ludis/p4xref.html
ECM pinouts: http://home.att.net/~subzero350/


cropduster MSG #277, 09-29-2007 10:09 AM
      That's some good info! Thanks.
I was kinda hoping you had found a site where you could put in a part # and find what vehicle it goes in. It would really help for upgrades when trudging through the yards...



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #278, 09-29-2007 10:24 AM
      Let see, maybe go to the site with the ECM pinouts and find one with the same 2 connectors the Fiero uses. Then go to Advance Auto's parts site (http://www.partsamerica.com) and look up that car. Then look under the option "See all vehicles this product fits".

You could also get a list of likely cars at the junkyard (would cost you 2 trips). Then do the lookup.

Or just hack up a toasted Fiero ECM......lol


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #279, 09-29-2007 12:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by cropduster:

What other cars use the Fiero ECM??? I want to make an adapter harness but there are no Fiero's in the junkyards around here that I could find. Besides, I would kinda hate to butcher a good ECM in case someone might need one
This is my DD so I need to be able to do this in a day if possible and I've also got to weld in an EGR base....




No other GM cars used the Fiero 2.8 ECMs. BUT, the Fiero 2.8 ECMs used the same connectors (ECM side) that most other GM ECMs of that era used; for example the TBI truck and van computers -- 1227747. Which is VERY common. So if you want to go grab one of those other ECMs from a junkyard, cut the connectors off the ECM board and solder wires to it, you can -- without butchering a good Fiero 2.8 ECM.

-ryan



cropduster MSG #280, 09-29-2007 01:02 PM
      Cool that's what I wanted to hear. I'd rather something else fall under the butcher's knife than a Fiero.



fierohobby MSG #281, 10-01-2007 05:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

No other GM cars used the Fiero 2.8 ECMs. BUT, the Fiero 2.8 ECMs used the same connectors (ECM side) that most other GM ECMs of that era used; for example the TBI truck and van computers -- 1227747.



This is true then for the 16144288 as well (since the 1227747 and 16144288 are direct swaps)? (I only ask because I'll have a spare one of those soon..)

-fh



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #282, 10-02-2007 03:55 PM
      I have one more question regarding the 7730 and magnetic VSS: how do you connect the speedo output to the Fiero speedometer?

I understand that the purple and yellow wires from the magnetic VSS are connected to the ECM instead of the speedo. I can snip them nearby the C203 and re-route them to the ECM. Then I'll be left with a single wire coming from the ECM (speedo output), and two wires (purple & yellow) going to the speedo. What connects where?


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #283, 10-02-2007 04:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

I have one more question regarding the 7730 and magnetic VSS: how do you connect the speedo output to the Fiero speedometer?

I understand that the purple and yellow wires from the magnetic VSS are connected to the ECM instead of the speedo. I can snip them nearby the C203 and re-route them to the ECM. Then I'll be left with a single wire coming from the ECM (speedo output), and two wires (purple & yellow) going to the speedo. What connects where?


To run the fiero's speedometer off the 7730 ecm you will need to build this circuit:

http://dtcc.cz28.com/fiero/speedo2.gif

You will only connect the above circuit to the yellow wire that goes to the Fiero speedometer. The purple wire is not used.


perry rhodan (fiero_gtr@hotmail.com) MSG #284, 10-02-2007 05:21 PM
      If I understand correctly if I use the Fiero speedo off the 7730 ECM, this will add the possibility to correct , by tweaking the code in the ECM, the error induced by incorectly sized wheel diameter (like putting bigger than stock overall diameter tire) ?

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #285, 10-02-2007 09:21 PM
      Thanks again, Darth Fiero!

[edit to add: positive rating awarded]

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 10-02-2007).]

88 Silver Formula (adam@nesman.net) MSG #286, 10-02-2007 09:47 PM
      pm sent Darth.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #287, 10-03-2007 01:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by perry rhodan:

If I understand correctly if I use the Fiero speedo off the 7730 ECM, this will add the possibility to correct , by tweaking the code in the ECM, the error induced by incorectly sized wheel diameter (like putting bigger than stock overall diameter tire) ?


YES



perry rhodan (fiero_gtr@hotmail.com) MSG #288, 10-03-2007 05:29 PM
      Thanks!

ALLTRBO MSG #289, 10-03-2007 06:31 PM
      I just searched the thread real quick and didn't find any mention... but what's wrong with using $8D (90-92 F-body V8) code switched to 6 cylinder and tuned? They're both dizzy setups with non-digital EGR's.
IIRC I heard (grain of salt?) that the $8D is a more advanced code than the F-body V6 code.
If there wouldn't be any issues here I'll use $8D in the '730 for my 3.4pr since I'm already familiar with it from tuning my '90 IROC-Z (before the turbos, it's running $58 now).



bnevets27 MSG #290, 10-04-2007 01:29 PM
      Couple questions.

Can you use the 7730 to convert a stock fiero 2.8 to DIS?
If I'm deleting the EGR, all I need to wire is for a knock sensor?

And if I can convert the 2.8 to DIS, what parts would I need from one of these donor cars?

-2.0L 4cyl TBI DIS
-2.8 MFI V6 DIS
-3.1 MFI V6 DIS

Any chance the DIS removes my need for an ignition module?

Thanks


bnevets27 MSG #291, 10-04-2007 01:33 PM
      oops, double post

[This message has been edited by bnevets27 (edited 10-04-2007).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #292, 10-04-2007 01:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

I just searched the thread real quick and didn't find any mention... but what's wrong with using $8D (90-92 F-body V8) code switched to 6 cylinder and tuned? They're both dizzy setups with non-digital EGR's.
IIRC I heard (grain of salt?) that the $8D is a more advanced code than the F-body V6 code.
If there wouldn't be any issues here I'll use $8D in the '730 for my 3.4pr since I'm already familiar with it from tuning my '90 IROC-Z (before the turbos, it's running $58 now).


To be honest I haven't ever tried it. Perhaps the next time I have a car here in the shop that I do this conversion to I will give it a shot. But I am reluctant to do this for a mail-order tune because I am sure it will require a lot of tuning to get running right.

 
quote
Originally posted by bnevets27:

Couple questions.

Can you use the 7730 to convert a stock fiero 2.8 to DIS?
If I'm deleting the EGR, all I need to wire is for a knock sensor?

And if I can convert the 2.8 to DIS, what parts would I need from one of these donor cars?

-2.0L 4cyl TBI DIS
-2.8 MFI V6 DIS
-3.1 MFI V6 DIS

Any chance the DIS removes my need for an ignition module?

Thanks



Yes, the 7730 ECM already has code written for it that will work with DIS on V6 (masks $6D, $A1, and $88); in fact the vast amount of V6's that the 7730 ECM was used with had DIS.

You cannot use any 4cyl DIS parts with a V6 except for the coils (there are only 2 of them on 4cyl; the V6 uses 3 coils). The 4cyl ignition module and crank sensor are different than what the V6 uses.

The Fiero ignition module (located inside the distributor) is not used with the DIS setup. There is an ignition module used, but it resides under the coils in the DIS system (coils+ign module is commonly referred to as the "coil pack"). The DIS coil pack can be mounted anywhere you want to mount it. But care should be taken to keep it away from heat if possible.


ALLTRBO MSG #293, 10-04-2007 09:48 PM
      Cool. I wouldn't expect a mail order tune to be available off the bat, but once it's dialed in for a stock engine it shouldn't be a problem for those who need that.
Tuning shouldn't be all that hard for the stock engines, TPI's, especially the 305's, have a very similar power curve to the 2.8's, there's just more of it.
If you try it before I do (it'll be a while) let us know how it goes.


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #294, 10-10-2007 10:24 AM
      Darth, what would happen if you tuned the 7730 with $8F for 7psi and the turbo made 10psi? I finally got my turbo done and took it for a spin. The car will take about 1/2 throttle until the boost hits ~10psi then the engine completely bogs down and the SES light comes on. I need to get a good look at what the wideband is doing at this time but was concentrating on the boost gauge. The SES light goes out after a few seconds and the car runs good until I push it again.

Maybe I need to adjust the wastegate actuator to limit the boost as a first step. I was not expecting the car to hit that much boost.

EDIT: Got TunerPro RT to monitor the aldl stream. I have 2 flags, Wastegate Overboost and EST Monitor Fail.

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 10-10-2007).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #295, 10-10-2007 10:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

Darth, what would happen if you tuned the 7730 with $8F for 7psi and the turbo made 10psi? I finally got my turbo done and took it for a spin. The car will take about 1/2 throttle until the boost hits ~10psi then the engine completely bogs down and the SES light comes on. I need to get a good look at what the wideband is doing at this time but was concentrating on the boost gauge. The SES light goes out after a few seconds and the car runs good until I push it again.

Maybe I need to adjust the wastegate actuator to limit the boost as a first step. I was not expecting the car to hit that much boost.

EDIT: Got TunerPro RT to monitor the aldl stream. I have 2 flags, Wastegate Overboost and EST Monitor Fail.




Well if the chip was programmed for 7psi of boost and you pushed it to 10psi, the end result could be the overboost code.

The other code for the EST needs to be checked and repaired ASAP. Let me know what you come up with...

-ryan


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #296, 10-11-2007 10:18 AM
      Well it did not take long, thank goodness. This is the wiring off the ignition module. Wires are EST Bypass, EST, Reference, and Ground. I was getting an intermittent miss and SES light when the car hit 5k RPM. Then after the turbo swap I got a steady SES light and code 42, EST Monitor Fail. This was hidden beneath my wiring protector. So much for protection as the heat shrink tubing is melted:


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #297, 10-11-2007 09:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

Well it did not take long, thank goodness. This is the wiring off the ignition module. Wires are EST Bypass, EST, Reference, and Ground. I was getting an intermittent miss and SES light when the car hit 5k RPM. Then after the turbo swap I got a steady SES light and code 42, EST Monitor Fail. This was hidden beneath my wiring protector. So much for protection as the heat shrink tubing is melted:



Yikes! Looks like you need to find/use some higher temp heat shrink tubing. See if you can find some that is rated for 300 deg F min working temp.


Mister MSG #298, 10-13-2007 05:37 PM
      Just a quick update on the EGR adapter.

1.
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
I don't have any adapter plates right now and don't have the resources to get one made. If someone like ohio86se could get a mock-up model made and send it to me, I could check fitment on the Fiero 2.8 crossover pipe and digital EGR valves I have here to see if it would work. But I am very busy in the shop right now so I don't really have time to devote to the EGR adapter plate project at the moment other than what I said I could do above.
-ryan


2.
 
quote
Originally posted by Gwain:
I could supply those EGR adapter plates out of my shop. In addition to becoming a Fiero "addict" I do CNC machining for a number of industries, including custom motorcycle builders.
From what I've seen on this thread, looks like they could be made easily.
If anyone would like to pm me the drawings, files, sketches they have, I'll figure a price and post it here. I can either make them and supply them, or supply them through someone else who'd like to handle ordering and shipping.

Marc in sunny Titusville, FL
85 Sport w/V6 transplant
85 GT just newly on the road
84 SE loaded, son's car


3.
 
quote
Originally posted by ohio86se:
Ryan,
Have you ever used SolidWorks? I have used AutoCad for about 10 year and SolidWorks for about 5. Do you need any modeling done for the parts you are designing? I can do that. Its my normal job.
Just let me know



4.
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
Concerning the EGR adapter, I haven't been doing much work on it lately because I have been busy in the shop. However, it looks like ohio86se has already came up with a CAD model so all we need to do is get it transferred to material so it can be fit tested.
-ryan


I've been tying up all the ends and participants by P.Ms and...
We should have a first prototype made in a week or two.
From there it will be sent to Darth Fiero for test fitting and fixes
And if all goes well -----> Production and sale

Credits go to:

- Darth Fiero - Original idea and design



- ohio86se - Adapter plate SolidWorks file



- Gwain - CNC work and future production
Marc in sunny Titusville, FL

________________________________________________________

Thanks to all.

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 10-13-2007).]

rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #299, 10-13-2007 06:20 PM
      COOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PineyCreek MSG #300, 10-14-2007 02:04 AM
      You guys are my heroes. I'll take one! I hate this bloody vacuum driven EGR >_<



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #301, 10-14-2007 10:14 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

Darth, what would happen if you tuned the 7730 with $8F for 7psi and the turbo made 10psi? I finally got my turbo done and took it for a spin. The car will take about 1/2 throttle until the boost hits ~10psi then the engine completely bogs down and the SES light comes on. I need to get a good look at what the wideband is doing at this time but was concentrating on the boost gauge. The SES light goes out after a few seconds and the car runs good until I push it again.

Maybe I need to adjust the wastegate actuator to limit the boost as a first step. I was not expecting the car to hit that much boost.

EDIT: Got TunerPro RT to monitor the aldl stream. I have 2 flags, Wastegate Overboost and EST Monitor Fail.



If you have the latest 8F ads file in TunerPro you'll be able to find that the max allowable boost in the programming is about 10.6 psi although there is programming to support higher boost than that. The actual code would have to be modified as I mentioned in the turbocharging the 2.8 thread or a diode would have to be used to keep the ECM from sensing max boost over run before you reach the boost level you want.

Maybe if you set Overboost fuel cutoff psi and Overboost fuel restore psi to the same value (max is 10.61 psi) it will allow for more boost. I'm thinking that the ECM read rate will be fast enough to prevent an experience of actual fuel cut since it would be turned back on as fast as it was turned off. You will probably have to make adjustments to at least one more table I believe that sets how long to wait before restoring fuel.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 10-14-2007).]

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #302, 10-14-2007 01:07 PM
      Cool. I asked Darth to raise the limit. If the built-in limit is not enough I'll have to back the boost down a bit. Would be nice to get 10psi without knock. I plan to run E85 so that will help.

fierohobby MSG #303, 10-15-2007 05:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Mister:

Just a quick update on the EGR adapter...

I've been tying up all the ends and participants by P.Ms and...
We should have a first prototype made in a week or two.
From there it will be sent to Darth Fiero for test fitting and fixes
And if all goes well -----> Production and sale



Excellent!



swisscheese MSG #304, 10-19-2007 05:00 AM
      hmm, I see some work in the near future...

Mister MSG #305, 10-27-2007 06:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Mister: We should have a first prototype made in a week or two.


Two week have elapsed and I got word from Gwain:

"He is still waiting to get into an open machine. Hope that happens this week"

So let's see some fingers crossed on this thread LOL... Thanks Gwain, we'll be waiting

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 10-27-2007).]

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #306, 11-04-2007 04:46 PM
      I just finished installing my 7730 ECM today. Wow, what a difference! With the stock ECM, it used to take 3-4 seconds of cranking to start, then would want to stall. And it would run like crap until it warmed up.

When I started the engine with the 7730 installed, it fired up immediately, and idled nice and smooth. I'm very impressed.


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #307, 11-05-2007 09:14 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

I just finished installing my 7730 ECM today. Wow, what a difference! With the stock ECM, it used to take 3-4 seconds of cranking to start, then would want to stall. And it would run like crap until it warmed up.

When I started the engine with the 7730 installed, it fired up immediately, and idled nice and smooth. I'm very impressed.


that is from bad MAT or CTS sensors - or maybe just bad wiring to them, but - whatever - good job!

I just go me a 7730 this weekend. going to do the switch over, while I replace the cam - since motor is out, and wiring all tore down anyways.

picked up the 7730 from 89' Corsica, w/3.1 mpfi, along with the mount tray & connector w/4" leads
also, got the connectors for the knock sensor & crank sensor. I have the sensors in my 3.1 lumina block - just not hooked to anything
I also got the distributer blank cover & cam sensor. going DIS. no more ignition module.
gonna spend much time tearing thru this thread and any links from it.

anyways - is there a way to verify a ECM is working? pin checks? test posts?


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #308, 11-05-2007 09:24 AM
      The only way I know of checking is the SES light is supposed to come on when the key is first turned to ON. This probably only checks it's getting power. And of course the code 12. Probably need specialized hardware/software to test it fully. Just a guess.

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #309, 11-05-2007 10:20 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:
that is from bad MAT or CTS sensors - or maybe just bad wiring to them, but - whatever - good job!

All my sensors and wiring are fine. Same goes for the vacuum lines, ignition system, etc. I've tested everything, on numerous occasions. It's all in excellent condition.

The problem is that the stock V6 ECM is too damn slow. It was like a dog chasing its tail. The fact that my engine purrs like a cat after the ECM swap is indicative of that.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 11-05-2007).]

FierOmar (davidcordier@sbcglobal.net) MSG #310, 11-05-2007 11:35 AM
      So, I take it that the 7730 is found inside, under the dash in front of the glove box. ?? Minor pain, but... Strolling around the self service junk yard, I found two 7727 computers nestled in the engine bay just in front of the right shock tower.


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #311, 11-06-2007 08:30 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FierOmar:

So, I take it that the 7730 is found inside, under the dash in front of the glove box. ?? Minor pain, but... Strolling around the self service junk yard, I found two 7727 computers nestled in the engine bay just in front of the right shodk tower.



thats where it was on the 89 Corsica. a few 7mm screws & some wire cutters - and it was mine.
then I found a 92 GrandPrix, w/3.1, where someone removed the heads. made it real easy to get the additional sensors & connectors I needed.

gonna havta dig back thru this thread and see how y'all are mounting the ECM - its sideways....


FierOmar (davidcordier@sbcglobal.net) MSG #312, 11-06-2007 10:14 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:
gonna havta dig back thru this thread and see how y'all are mounting the ECM - its sideways....


There is some discussion about mounting a few pages back.

Now, was it in this thread or another one that someone commented on using the 3.4 Camaro intake with the DIS and the 7730 computer?



Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #313, 11-06-2007 10:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FierOmar:
There is some discussion about mounting a few pages back.

Now, was it in this thread or another one that someone commented on using the 3.4 Camaro intake with the DIS and the 7730 computer?


found it - early on - use the 4-cyl ECM tray from a 87-88

and, that someone was me. but, that was awhile ago, and I gutted my stock upper plenum, and will probably continue to use it instead. but, the DIS - yes - still in the plan - tho, I originaly was intending on having the coil packs for the DIS between the banks of the Camaro intake, above the fual rail.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #314, 11-06-2007 12:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FierOmar:


Now, was it in this thread or another one that someone commented on using the 3.4 Camaro intake with the DIS and the 7730 computer?




I don't know where it was talked about as it has been a while since I have said anything about this subject; but I would like to review here.

The stock Fiero 2.8 intake manifold was designed in an era at GM where low and mid range power (torque) was of primary concern. The Chevy Tuned Port Injection engines were the best example of this. As a result, that long runner design was implemented on the Fiero's 2.8. And it's the long intake runners that give the 2.8 it's healthy bottom end. But this also results in sacrificing the power in the upper rpm's; which is why so many people have seeked something different (carburated or trueleo). The Camaro 3.4 intake has a unique split upper plenum that is basically open which provides for a shorter overall runner length compared to the Fiero 2.8 intake setup. This means that using a Camaro 3.4 intake on a Fiero 2.8 will result in better upper RPM power vs. the stock 2.8 intake. The main reason why a lot of people don't swap the Camaro intake onto the Fiero is because it will not clear the distributor; but if you have DIS then that isn't an issue. Unfortunately most stock Fiero 2.8 blocks and cranks do not have provisions for the DIS's crank sensor. Later 2.8 blocks (primarily found in 88's) do have these provisions, but are not machined for it from the factory. But if I remember correctly there are some aftermarket vendors who are now offering external crank sensor/triggers that will work with the GM DIS system and can be added to any 60 deg V6.

-ryan


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #315, 11-08-2007 05:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
To run the fiero's speedometer off the 7730 ecm you will need to build this circuit:

http://dtcc.cz28.com/fiero/speedo2.gif

You will only connect the above circuit to the yellow wire that goes to the Fiero speedometer. The purple wire is not used.

When I read the comment above, I took it to mean that the purple wire from the speedometer should be left disconnected. Of course, I was mistaken. The purple wire from the speedo still needs to remain connected to the VSS. And the purple wire from the 7730 ECM (pin B9) taps into it.

I just wanted to clarify that, in case anyone else makes the same mistake.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #316, 11-09-2007 11:15 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

When I read the comment above, I took it to mean that the purple wire from the speedometer should be left disconnected. Of course, I was mistaken. The purple wire from the speedo still needs to remain connected to the VSS. And the purple wire from the 7730 ECM (pin B9) taps into it.

I just wanted to clarify that, in case anyone else makes the same mistake.


No, that is incorrect. The purple wire coming from the Fiero's Speedometer is a redundant ground which was originally used to ground one terminal of the VSS (vehicle speed sensor). The 7730 ECM has it's own ground wire (purple as well) that will handle this job, so there is no reason to hook up the purple wire coming from the Fiero's speedo. In fact, I recommend against hooking it up in order to keep the 7730 ECM isolated as much as possible from the inside wiring/grounds.

The reason why is because if by chance the main battery ground cable becomes disconnected from the engine block, it is possible the ground circuit could be completed thru the ECM via the speedo which could lead to a fried ECM or burnt wiring harness (since the battery negative also grounds to the chassis thru that smaller wire coming off the cable terminal). This is also the reason why I highly recommend all ECM grounds be made to the engine directly and not to the chassis.

-ryan


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #317, 11-09-2007 11:26 AM
      OK, that's good to know. Any ideas on the stalling issue?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #318, 11-09-2007 02:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

OK, that's good to know. Any ideas on the stalling issue?


Are you referring to your past stalling issues with the OE Fiero ECM?


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #319, 11-09-2007 04:31 PM
      With the 7730 ECM, I have a new and different stalling issue. As mentioned above, it likes to stall if I disengage the clutch after downshifting. Sometimes, it just dies. And sometimes, the idle will surge/drop a couple times before stalling.

For what it's worth, the IAC is new, and the TB passage is clear.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 11-09-2007).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #320, 11-09-2007 06:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

With the 7730 ECM, I have a new and different stalling issue. As mentioned above, it likes to stall if I disengage the clutch after downshifting. Sometimes, it just dies. And sometimes, the idle will surge/drop a couple times before stalling.

For what it's worth, the IAC is new, and the TB passage is clear.



Ok, contact me via email or PM so I can collect some more info from you and see if we can figure out this issue.

-ryan



DEMONCHILD (yamahamx4789@yahoo.com) MSG #321, 11-10-2007 10:58 PM
      how much would a ecm kit cost and when will they be available?
and later on could i run a turbo with no changes to the ecm?
i have no clue about ecm swaps an stuff but i do want a better running motor


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #322, 11-11-2007 12:15 AM
      No kit that I know of. It's strictly DIY.

DEMONCHILD (yamahamx4789@yahoo.com) MSG #323, 11-11-2007 07:57 PM
      ok then how much for the ecm? and maby some instructions showin how and what wires to change around

burtonx (madtown-nick@hotmail.com) MSG #324, 11-11-2007 08:48 PM
      If I sent you an 87' harness would you be able to mod it and come up with the ecm <preprograming would be a must, I don't know how to do that, nor do I have the equiptment to. > If you are willing to do this, how much would you charge? pm me



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #325, 11-12-2007 10:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by DEMONCHILD:
ok then how much for the ecm? and maby some instructions showin how and what wires to change around


I found about 10 of them in my local u-pull-it junkyard for $36 each. For a list of cars that use the 1227730 you can go to http://www.partsamerica.com/ and look up an ECM for a 1989 Chevy Beretta with a 2.8L V6. Select the first one then look in the middle of the page for "See all vehicles this product fits". These are all V6 cars so the memcal has the correct limp home mode chips. The 7730 was also used in I4 and V8 cars which won't have the correct memcal.

With the u-pull-it type junkyard you take some tools with you and pull the ECM from behind the glove box. I used a phillips head, 7mm and 10mm wrenches, and wire cutters for the pigtails. A small socket set can make it a bit faster. Maybe 15 minutes to remove it.

For wiring you print the ECM pinouts from your Fiero and from any of the V6 cars that used the 7730. I used a 1989 Beretta pinout from this site : http://home.att.net/~subzero350/ . I also used Darth Fiero's instructions: http://www.gmtuners.com/files/Fiero2.8_to_7730.pdf .

There are several ways to change wires: cut/splice/solder or repin the ECM connectors or build a swap harness. I did the c/s/s and it worked but wish I had done the repining instead. You push out the Fiero pin from the connector and insert it in the 7730 connector in the proper place. It is not difficult at all. Just follow the wiring pinouts and take your time. Proper tools make all the difference.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #326, 11-12-2007 11:11 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:


The 7730 was also used in I4 and V8 cars which won't have the correct memcal.



If anyone gets a 7730 ECM out of a car that had the 305 or 350 Tuned Port Injection (TPI) V8 and needs a V6 mem-cal; please contact me. I would be interested in either purchasing your V8 mem-cal or trading it for the V6 one you need to do this swap.

-ryan



Mister MSG #327, 11-12-2007 10:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Mister:
Two week have elapsed and I got word from Gwain:
"He is still waiting to get into an open machine. Hope that happens this week"


Good news from Titusville, FL gentlemen, I got an email from Gwain today.

" I’ve sent an Email to Darth Fiero on Pennocks for a mailing address to send him one of the prototype EGR Adapter plates we’ve made up. When I get a response, I’ll send it out, then we’ll see what his evaluation is."

Thanks Gwain



DEMONCHILD (yamahamx4789@yahoo.com) MSG #328, 11-12-2007 11:32 PM
      ok im confused now at the start of the post i thought the ecm needs program mods?

now its just plug an play?

what all do i need to modify for the ecm to work >.<

do i need the egr valve...i donot have emissions requirements in my state
and what do i have to do to add a knock sensor? and where can i find a knock sensor and wiring for one.........
and what will this do for my fan .....would it turn on by ecm? and can i just leaave my 7th injector in with no wireing to it?


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #329, 11-13-2007 12:47 AM
      The 7730 does need to be reprogrammed to your specific engine's needs. Whether you run a digital EGR or not, digital Purge valve or not, DIS or distributor, 15lbs or 17lbs injectors, whatever. Just fill out the form Darth will send you, pay the man, then he will burn you a chip for your setup. The only way it could be plug and play would be if you swapped the exact engine from the donor car with everything being exactly the same and used the donor cars wiring harness.

You do not need to modify anything for the ECM to work. You will change the ECM holder between the seats as the 7730 is oriented a different way. That is covered in this thread. To make it work just swap the pins from the Fiero ECM to the 7730.

You do not need an EGR valve. It's nice to have for emissions but not required for the car to run. Some folks here want the newer style digital EGR so that is what is being worked on. Same for the gas tank Purge canister. The newer style is digital, the old vacuum. Your choice on what to do.

The ECM will control the fan. No more fan switch needed. Just leave it in place to block the hole. Same with the cold start injector. Not needed anymore so just leave it. It won't hurt anything.

I'll have to leave the knock sensor question to someone who has done it. My 3.4L came with one already in the block. I can tell you it's just one wire run from the sensor to the proper ECM pin.


DEMONCHILD (yamahamx4789@yahoo.com) MSG #330, 11-13-2007 04:02 AM
      ok so when will i get the form and how much is all this gonna cost?


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #331, 11-13-2007 10:15 AM
      First step is sending Darth Fiero a PM here or go to his website and contact him there:
http://www.gmtuners.com/


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #332, 11-13-2007 10:19 AM
      I have a spare Fiero harness. I have 2 7730 ECM's and 2 sets of connectors with close to 6" of wiring that connect to the 7730's.
Can someone make me a harness?

I assume 2 wires will be added to I can splice into the knock sensor on my block. I have a 3.1 rebuild with a turbo on it that uses a knock sensor connected to a Buick ESC that controls ignition timing.

Only thing I am missing is the 4cyl ECM mounting hardware.


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #333, 11-13-2007 10:51 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:
I have a spare Fiero harness. I have 2 7730 ECM's and 2 sets of connectors with close to 6" of wiring that connect to the 7730's.
Can someone make me a harness?

I assume 2 wires will be added to I can splice into the knock sensor on my block. I have a 3.1 rebuild with a turbo on it that uses a knock sensor connected to a Buick ESC that controls ignition timing.

Only thing I am missing is the 4cyl ECM mounting hardware.


I might be able to. I am doing mine soon - hopefully before end of year.
how's about you supply the loom & insulating tape, and a ECM tray for both, and cover your shipping
I've gotten pretty good at making the harnesses look OK, and will re-use most of the loom - but the small peices are always so damn brittle.
rodney has the tape - $23 for a roll to do 1, not sure of the cost of loom, but - gotta be the good stuff w/the stripe - again - most can be re-used. and, the tray's - finding them is harder than paying for them...


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #334, 11-13-2007 01:06 PM
      Wiring in the knock sensor is covered in Darth Fiero's instructions. But just FYI, the knock sensor uses the same type of connector as the fan switch. Since you won't be using the fan switch any more, you can re-use the connector (and some of the wire) for the knock sensor.

There are some coolant drain plugs on the engine block. At least one of them should be the same size as the threads on the knock sensor. You just unscrew the plug (with an Allen wrench), and screw in the knock sensor. I used the one on the trunk side of the engine block, between the transmission and the alternator. That area is a lot less cluttered than the other side of the engine.

With the rest of the wiring, I took the easy route. There are no vehicle inspections in Florida. So I had the EGR and evap canister purge deleted. The 7730 swap also involved deleting the cold start injection system, and the fan switch. I was able to re-use some of that wiring for the knock sensor, injector driver grounds, etc. The rest got deleted.

Re-pinning the ECM connectors is simple and easy, but is time consuming. You can remove the pins from the housings using a sewing needle or a paperclip. Then, using Darth's instructions, insert the pins into the appropriate spots in the 7730 ECM connectors.


Gwain (mjfinfla@gmail.com) MSG #335, 11-14-2007 08:26 PM
      OK, for those of you who have been following this thread religiously, I've shipped off the first prototype EGR Adapter Plate to Darth Fiero for evaluation.

For the curious, here are some pics.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.



I've made some extras, so if we get the "blessing", I've got some to distribute.

I haven't figured out the final pricing as yet, but preliminarily it looks to be around $30 to $35. I'd like to get that cost down, which could happen with larger runs. I've also put the question to Darth Fiero whether he feels the "bare" aluminum is OK, or should we put an anodize coating on them (which adds $'s) to protect them in the engine compartment environment?

Any inputs?

Marc in sunny Titusville, FL

84 SE son's car, loaded
85 Coupe w/V6 transplant
85 GT just newly on the road


Ants87gt (ferrentino@q.com) MSG #336, 11-17-2007 11:55 AM
      just a few questions on the 7730 swap, i plan to turbo my 2.8, I have a syclone trubo and intercooler that i'm going to put on the car, down the road i may upgrade to a 3.1 or 3.4 when needed. can you tune the chip for the 2.8 turbo setup? then if i upgrade engine size you need to retune right? and if i understood all the post my stock 5speed trans does not need any vss mods just tied into the ecm correct? thanks for the help

Mister MSG #337, 11-17-2007 01:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Gwain:
I've made some extras, so if we get the "blessing", I've got some to distribute.
Marc in sunny Titusville, FL


Good work Gwain, since I'm not THE expert I can't help with the F.B.
Like you and others I hope it will pass the Darth test and we can get these suckers rolling



Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #338, 11-17-2007 02:09 PM
      Nice job! Some great progress with that adapter. -Jason

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #339, 11-17-2007 08:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Gwain:

OK, for those of you who have been following this thread religiously, I've shipped off the first prototype EGR Adapter Plate to Darth Fiero for evaluation.



Marc, I just wanted to let you know I got the adapter. Initial test fits reveal some adjustments to the design need to be made so it works properly in the application. I have a busy weekend so I should be able to get these adjustments to you early next week.

-ryan


BobadooFunk (bobadoofunk@gmail.com) MSG #340, 11-17-2007 09:55 PM
      im watching this! my egr is bad.. i have it plugged till i can do this swap.

Synthesis (synssins@gmail.com) MSG #341, 11-17-2007 11:30 PM
      Quick Question....

Does the 7730 have Rev Limiter capabilities?

Can it be programmed in at a specific RPM to shut the engine down or kill the fuel when the engine exceeds a set RPM?


DEMONCHILD (yamahamx4789@yahoo.com) MSG #342, 11-17-2007 11:38 PM
      ok so am i geting this right if i have prom chips all i need is the 7730 ecm? or will the ecm in my 86 accept the proms
or to be safe should i send the proms i have to darth for a double check on their programing?

[This message has been edited by DEMONCHILD (edited 11-17-2007).]

ohio86se (rick44314@gmail.com) MSG #343, 11-18-2007 07:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


Marc, I just wanted to let you know I got the adapter. Initial test fits reveal some adjustments to the design need to be made so it works properly in the application. I have a busy weekend so I should be able to get these adjustments to you early next week.

-ryan


Let me know if we need to do changes to the drawing and Ill get it updated.



Gwain (mjfinfla@gmail.com) MSG #344, 11-18-2007 07:38 AM
      OK guys, I'll wait for the changes from Darth, and see what we have to do to either "fix" the parts we have, or make changes and run another group of parts.

I'd hold off changing the drawing till we know the changes are complete and acceptable.

Marc


perry rhodan (fiero_gtr@hotmail.com) MSG #345, 11-18-2007 08:14 AM
      Very interesting the adaptor plate.

Mister MSG #346, 11-18-2007 11:21 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by perry rhodan: Very interesting the adaptor plate.


We got a serious work group here man...we're not scrxxing around LOL

Thanks guys.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #347, 11-19-2007 08:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Gwain:

OK guys, I'll wait for the changes from Darth, and see what we have to do to either "fix" the parts we have, or make changes and run another group of parts.

I'd hold off changing the drawing till we know the changes are complete and acceptable.

Marc


Marc, EGR adapter drawing corrections have been emailed to you and ohio86se using the email addresses you both have listed on this forum. Let me know if either of you don't get them.

-ryan


Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #348, 11-20-2007 04:56 PM
      very interested in the adapter plate as well. if it is not a "trade secret" could I get a copy of the updated drawing? I will not horn in on your business, I could just have someone make one for me. If not, I am more than willing to pay the 30$ or 40$ dollars.

[This message has been edited by Madess (edited 11-20-2007).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #349, 11-20-2007 05:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
The ECM that was used in this swap was the 1227730 unit which was used in many 1987-92 era GM cars. For this application, I elected to use the $88 code mask programming which was designed to be used in a 1990-92 Camaro/Firebird 3.1. The Camaro/Firebird 3.1 is very similar to the stock Fiero 2.8 including it's use of a distributor and iron-heads. With that being said, there were some significant differences between the two systems...

The 7730 ECM running $88 code mask does NOT use or need the 7th injector (cold start).
The 7730 ECM controls the coolant fan relay directly.
The 7730 ECM will interface with stock Fiero 2.8 ECM wiring harness. (although some modifications will be needed)
The 7730 ECM uses a knock sensor.
The 7730 ECM interfaces directly with the speed sensor which means changes can be made in the programming to calibrate the speedo without having to change out the plastic gears on the VSS sensor itself.
The 7730 ECM running the $88 code mask will NOT work with the stock Fiero 2.8 EGR valve. It is designed to work with the digital EGR valve used in the early-mid 90's era GM V6 cars. I went ahead and designed an adapter plate and had another Fiero friend make one up so we could use the digital EGR valve on the stock Fiero 2.8 y-pipe.



I haven't followed this whole thread, so this may have been touched on, but is there a reason not to use the $8D mask? How many BLM cells does the $88 support?


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #350, 11-21-2007 12:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I haven't followed this whole thread, so this may have been touched on, but is there a reason not to use the $8D mask? How many BLM cells does the $88 support?


Somebody else brought that up to me and at the time I first did this swap, the thought about using the $8D code mask hadn't crossed my mind. Besides, my time for trying out new things was limited due to my very tight shop schedule so I didn't really have that option considering the $88 code mask was pretty much ready to go for the application. The next conversion I do, I will definitely give the $8D mask a shot. But for now I hesitate to do any mail order tunes using the $8D code mask until I have a chance to thoroughly work with it myself.

-ryan



lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #351, 11-21-2007 01:15 PM
      What application is that one (8D)?

ALLTRBO MSG #352, 11-21-2007 03:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ALLTRBO:

I just searched the thread real quick and didn't find any mention... but what's wrong with using $8D (90-92 F-body V8) code switched to 6 cylinder and tuned? They're both dizzy setups with non-digital EGR's.
IIRC I heard (grain of salt?) that the $8D is a more advanced code than the F-body V6 code.
If there wouldn't be any issues here I'll use $8D in the '730 for my 3.4pr since I'm already familiar with it from tuning my '90 IROC-Z (before the turbos, it's running $58 now).




You'll probably beat me to it Darth, but it's still the plan for mine (unless the whole TT L98 goes in with it).


Mr.PBody (paniccia008@aol.com) MSG #353, 11-23-2007 03:08 PM
      Bump for something I am about to attempt... I did 34mpg with no egr and no cat, so once I get this swap done (spring hopefully) I will do some 282 mpg testing.

Mr.PBody (paniccia008@aol.com) MSG #354, 11-25-2007 09:32 PM
      picked up a Beretta V6 7730 today with connectors and 6 inches of wire for $28 today. Where are the instructions mentioned earlier? I have the list of where all the wires need to go to re-pin the fiero to the beretta connectors. But I don't know what slot it which, are there diagrams of which slot is which on both cars?

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #355, 11-26-2007 08:36 AM
      I've almost got my motor together, and will be starting on the wiring harness for this swap real soon. Anyone else actually get this swap done and give any tips?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #356, 11-26-2007 11:12 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

Here's some info out of the Fiero Service Manual that describes how to extract the electrical terminals and wires from the ECM connectors (after you have removed the plastic retainers on the backs of the connectors)...



The wiring instruction sheet can be downloaded using this link: http://www.gmtuners.com/files/Fiero2.8_to_7730.pdf

To see the back views of the 7730 and Fiero ECM connectors so you can identify pin ID locations, you will need to download the appropriate wiring/pinout diagrams for the Fiero and donor vehicle you got the 7730 ECM from; which can be found here: http://home.att.net/~subzero350/index.htm




Mr.PBody (paniccia008@aol.com) MSG #357, 11-26-2007 04:38 PM
      Pyrthian, thats a good point, does anyone aside from the first guy have a 7730 pr motor running? This won't stop me from attempting this, I was just wondering.

Capt Fiero (captfiero@captfiero.com) MSG #358, 11-26-2007 05:14 PM
      There is at least one running.

Here is an engine bay shot of his car at the last meeting. He kinda cheated though, (: He did a Camaro 3.4 V6 swap a couple years ago and did the 7730 swap a few months ago. So this is what he has now.




Kinda cool to see a Fiero looking motor without a distributor shaft. He will be re-locating the coils at a later date.

If you want to see a few more pics. Just scroll down about 3/4 of the page to the car pics.

http://www.westcoastfieros....sts.asp?TID=381&PN=1


Mr.PBody (paniccia008@aol.com) MSG #359, 11-26-2007 08:12 PM
      I am wondering is it worth going ahead and spending the extra cash to convert to DIS when I do the 7730 swap? Also can I do a DIS conversion without dropping the motor?

MedRedGT (doyle@rabjohns.com) MSG #360, 11-26-2007 11:12 PM
      I did this swap on my 88GT a few months ago . It only took me a few hours to do. The difference is amazing. My car cranks and goes to a smooth idle. No more hunting around. No more high idle that seems to last forever. As I understand it, the origial ECM updated every second and a half. The 7730 updates 10 times a second. The throttle response and driveability are vastly improved. My car drives like an 07. I am running a test pipe and a K&N and my engine pulls to the redline. I highly recommend this upgrade . Thanks for a great upgrade Darth.
P.S. The wiring for the knock sensor and the fan switch gave me more trouble than anything else. If someone could explain this part clearly, I believe this would be a more popular mod. Thanks again Darth !!!


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #361, 11-27-2007 12:39 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Mr.PBody:

I am wondering is it worth going ahead and spending the extra cash to convert to DIS when I do the 7730 swap? Also can I do a DIS conversion without dropping the motor?


The DIS swap is for the motors that originally came with DIS as you need the crank position sensor and reluctor wheel to make it work. The Fireo 2.8L has no provision for either. Do you have the 3.4L engine? Then it's very easy to use the DIS. The wiring diagrams that Darth posted above show which wires go where. Here is mine. The coil pack is mounted on the trunk wall.




Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #362, 11-27-2007 08:44 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Mr.PBody:
I am wondering is it worth going ahead and spending the extra cash to convert to DIS when I do the 7730 swap? Also can I do a DIS conversion without dropping the motor?


I would think yes, you can do it without dropping the motor. I am trying to think of why you would have to drop the motor for the DIS?
my original plan when seeing this thread way back was to use DIS so I could also use a camaro intake manifold.
but, another strong argument for DIS over Distributer is no more ignition module. and, if you've ever used a timing light on you car, you see how shakey the igntion is. whether that due to electronics or it mechanical - dont matter - DIS is steady.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #363, 11-27-2007 11:24 AM
      DIS is simply more percise and accurate than distributor-based ignition timing. The DIS still uses an ignition module; it mounts under the coils.

As mentioned earlier, you CANNOT put DIS directly onto a stock Fiero 2.8 because there are no provisions for it. There are some aftermarket companies out there that make external crank triggers that mount on the balancer so you can run DIS. One that comes to mind is TCE; they can be reached via email at tce@woh.rr.com . Don't know if one of their setups is 100% compatible with the Fiero 2.8 and assy belt drive or not, so you will have to talk to them about it.

Getting rid of the distributor opens up the possibilities for you to use pretty much any intake manifold that will work on the 2.8/3.1/3.4 and clear the Fiero's deck lid. The 3.4 iron-head SFI Camaro/Firebird intake is the one that I like the most for an iron-head engine.


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #364, 11-27-2007 12:16 PM
      oops - right - the crank sensor....lol - had this newer 3.1 block so long forgot everyone dont have one

Mr.PBody (paniccia008@aol.com) MSG #365, 11-27-2007 06:25 PM
      Yeah I didn't realise the 2.8L didn't couldn't be converted to DIS, I knew the 3.4 made it possible so I didn't know if the 2.8 would work or not. I will just stick to the distributer as I can barely afford the chip burn and knock sensor themselves right now. Pyrthian I asked about dropping the motor because I didn't know if I could install the crank trigger with the motor in the car. The plan is when I have more money is to either swap to L67 or a 3.4pr and if I do a PR (alot cheaper) I will go to DIS, but I think if I can come up with enough money to swap I will save up the extra and go 3800sc. Thats all a moot point tho because this is a 7730 thread, and I am broke. I am still trying to understand how to know where the Fiero wires go in the 7730 clips.

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #366, 11-28-2007 09:12 AM
      theres a PDF file with a basic run down. a link has been posted in this thread.
but, for a more detailed appraoch, most better libraries have Service Manuals. you can go to the library, find the service manual for the vehicle you got the 7730 from, and make copies of the ECM pinout pages, and anything else you think will help (or check out the book...) and then find the service manual (or buy - good book to have) the service manual for your Fiero. again, copy the ECM pinout. you'll quickly notice that the wiring colors are mostly the same. this helps alot. the pics have exact locations. tho I fully understand the confusion - I have yet to actually do it myself - but, by the looks of things - I will be starting on my wiring harness NEXT WEEK. YAY! just waiting for my new piston (broke one during install...duh...) to finish my rebuild - should be today/tommarow - and have the motor back on the cradle this weekend - then the wiring begins. also cleaning up my wiring from my auto 2 manual swap, the clutch safety switch & backup lights.


Mr.PBody (paniccia008@aol.com) MSG #367, 11-28-2007 05:32 PM
      I have the Beretta diagram from Darth, and I have the Fiero to Camaro list from Darth. He said to use the Camaro one since I am using a distributer. However on my connectors all I see are C and D on the two 32 pin connectors, and A and B on the 24 pin connector. I talked to another member with the swap and he said its all color matching, (I am not doubting you man) but is everyone sure I can do this? 88GT swap with a distributer. Some of the wires are the same, for example my 32 pin connectors both have a solid beige wire. And my 24 pin and one of my 32 pins both have a solid orange. Can anyone show me a chart that is a diagram of the connectors that tells what the holes are named on the 7730 connectors?

MedRedGT (doyle@rabjohns.com) MSG #368, 11-28-2007 06:45 PM
      The 1st thing I did was figure out which plugs were which and labeled them with a permanent marker. Keep looking at the diagrams and the plugs and it will come to you. After they are labeled take one wire at a time and move it. The colors tend to match. You will see. Take your time and do it neat. Good luck...

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #369, 11-29-2007 10:27 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:
The DIS swap is for the motors that originally came with DIS as you need the crank position sensor and reluctor wheel to make it work. The Fireo 2.8L has no provision for either. Do you have the 3.4L engine? Then it's very easy to use the DIS. The wiring diagrams that Darth posted above show which wires go where. Here is mine. The coil pack is mounted on the trunk wall.


reluctor wheel? what/where is that?
I thought just the crank sensor is enough?


JazzMan (jazzman@fierocentral.com) MSG #370, 11-29-2007 01:13 PM
      The reluctor wheel is the part the crank sensor senses. The crank sensor is basically a metal detector, so something that has notches in it needs to be on the crank. The sensor sees the notches and tells the ECM. Typically one notch is different than the others, that way the ECM knows where TDC is on the crank.

JazzMan


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #371, 11-29-2007 01:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:

The reluctor wheel is the part the crank sensor senses. The crank sensor is basically a metal detector, so something that has notches in it needs to be on the crank. The sensor sees the notches and tells the ECM. Typically one notch is different than the others, that way the ECM knows where TDC is on the crank.

JazzMan


ok, so, my 3.1 crank, with that wheel in the middle is in fact the relucter wheel, and the sensor in the block is enough? I was thinking maybe is was the little metal wheel with tabs which was mounted on the front of the crank behind the pulley.


Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #372, 11-30-2007 08:49 AM
      have the kinks in the adapter plate been worked out yet?

Gwain (mjfinfla@gmail.com) MSG #373, 11-30-2007 01:13 PM
      Madess:

I'm waiting to get the "revised" plate back in machining. Last week with Thanksgiving, was a short week, and this week we've been "swamped" (because last week was a short week)!



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #374, 12-03-2007 12:32 PM
      EDIT: Email issue corrected.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-08-2008).]

Mister MSG #375, 12-12-2007 02:07 PM
      News... ??

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #376, 12-12-2007 02:26 PM
      well, my engine is almost all done, just waiting for a part. then onto the cradle the engine goes, and the wiring will begin.
still hoping to be done before 2008 - but - its friggin cold out there.....

still got a Q tho - should I bother hooking up the cam sensor? seems kinda moot.


Mr.PBody (paniccia008@aol.com) MSG #377, 12-12-2007 05:30 PM
      Well I filled Ryans whole form out and then went Christmas jewlery shopping, so I am pretty much cleared out. I am going to hold off on my swap until I get it out of storage and back here in Cincy, so I probably won't do it until January. I really wanted to get this done soon.

fkossegi (fkoss@comcast.net) MSG #378, 12-12-2007 10:32 PM
      Posted to wrong topic

[This message has been edited by fkossegi (edited 12-12-2007).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #379, 12-13-2007 12:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

well, my engine is almost all done, just waiting for a part. then onto the cradle the engine goes, and the wiring will begin.
still hoping to be done before 2008 - but - its friggin cold out there.....

still got a Q tho - should I bother hooking up the cam sensor? seems kinda moot.



The cam sensor is only used in SFI applications/computers. The 7730 is NOT SFI; but rather it is batch fire. So the cam sensor will not be used with the 7730 ECM at all.


Mr.PBody (paniccia008@aol.com) MSG #380, 12-14-2007 09:30 PM
      Anyone in need of a 7730? I have one with a V6 Prom (89 Beretta GT) and all three connectors with 6 inches of wire in them. I am thinking I want to save for a 3800SC and am not sure I feel like putting the $80 (chip burn and knock sensor) and wiring into this right now. If you want it pm me an offer.

Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #381, 12-15-2007 09:08 AM
      I'm looking for a 7730 prom chip, for a 91-92 Camaro (dizzy set up) with manual trans and 3.1 liter engine. I have a new built 3.2 engine. I believe this will give me the best starting point (.1 liter difference) for my swap. Before I send it out and have it tweaked. -Jason

[This message has been edited by Fierofreak00 (edited 12-16-2007).]

Mr.PBody (paniccia008@aol.com) MSG #382, 12-15-2007 01:48 PM
      It really shouldn't matter as long as the prom is a V6, do you also need the whole computer with pigtails?

Cooter MSG #383, 12-15-2007 08:29 PM
      Darth- email question sent.
Thanks!


Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #384, 12-15-2007 10:17 PM
      No, I really don't need the ecm, that's the easy part and I can get them cheap enough. It's the prom I really need, 3.1 Camaros are hard to come by, especially the manual ones. I was just hoping that someone had a spare one. + 4 u for offering the advice. Thanks alot. -Jason



Mr.PBody (paniccia008@aol.com) MSG #385, 12-15-2007 11:39 PM
      Anytime man, sorry I don't have what you are looking for, my scrapyard where I bought my 7730, shows a 3.1L camaro on their website but i couldn't find it. So I had to get a beretta GT chip.

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #386, 12-16-2007 02:48 AM
      here is the ecm i just got


fkossegi (fkoss@comcast.net) MSG #387, 12-16-2007 06:39 PM
      I picked up a 7730 (reconditioned) from the local junkie from a 89 Beretta, but the Cal-Mem doesn't seem have the numbers visable. The large chip says DELCO ANKR 5246, the two smaller chips are covered by a board that's soldered in so I can't read the numbers. Will this work? If someone would show tell me how to post pictures, I could show you.

Mr.PBody (paniccia008@aol.com) MSG #388, 12-16-2007 08:43 PM
      scroll down to the bottom of the page, you will find an icon that says "Pennocks Image Poster" click on that




Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #389, 12-16-2007 09:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fkossegi:

I picked up a 7730 (reconditioned) from the local junkie from a 89 Beretta, but the Cal-Mem doesn't seem have the numbers visable. The large chip says DELCO ANKR 5246, the two smaller chips are covered by a board that's soldered in so I can't read the numbers. Will this work? If someone would show tell me how to post pictures, I could show you.



Ran that memcal BCC (ANKR) and it returned this:

Broadcast Code: ANKR
Model Year: 1989
Release Date: 04/19/88
EPROM Part Number: 16125245
ECM Part Number: 01227730
PROM ID: 5246
SCAN ID: 5661
Platform Codes: LB
Engine RPO Codes: LB6
Engine Displacement (L): 2.8
Transmission RPO Codes: ME9
Transmission Type: AUTO
Gear Ratio RPO Codes: F75
Emmission RPO Codes:
Emissions Catagory: *
GVWR Ratings:

This mem-cal can be used for a 7730-V6 application so long as it is reprogrammed for your engine.

-ryan


fkossegi (fkoss@comcast.net) MSG #390, 12-16-2007 11:17 PM
      Thanks Mr. PBody - That won't work for me -- (I've got a Mac)

Thanks Darth Fiero. So when I'm ready, just send this chip to you to reprogram (of course filling out your form)? It'll be for a stock 2.8 with egr and 5 speed.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #391, 12-16-2007 11:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fkossegi:

Thanks Mr. PBody - That won't work for me -- (I've got a Mac)

Thanks Darth Fiero. So when I'm ready, just send this chip to you to reprogram (of course filling out your form)? It'll be for a stock 2.8 with egr and 5 speed.



When you are ready, shoot me an email at sinisterperformance@dtcc.cz28.com and I will send you that form to get the process started.

-ryan


Doug85GT MSG #392, 12-17-2007 03:46 PM
      I've gone through pages 1,8,9, and 10 of this thread. I don't see where anyone has posted any MPG improvements or a little more solid performance improvements such as dyno run or at least a 1/4 mile run.

Is there something hiding in pages 2-7? Or could someone give some of that type of information?


Mr.PBody (paniccia008@aol.com) MSG #393, 12-17-2007 04:38 PM
      No one claims any 0-60 gains, any mpg gains, or any hp gains. The Fiero ECM updates every second or 1.5 seconds, and uses a cold start injector. Which causes rough hunting idle. The 7730 uses a knock sensor, updates ever 0.1 second, has no cold start injector, and uses digital EGR. Its purely a swap for driveablility and run ability. Of the like 3 people that have it done they say possible MPG gains (the car the thread was started about gets damn good mpg for an auto), another person said the car feels like it pulls harder at high rpms. Once I finally do my swap (January-ish) I will do a before and after run on the G-Tech Pro RR and post the numbers here.

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #394, 12-18-2007 08:31 AM
      I am expecting my milegae to increase. I am also expecting better power in the 4500-5500 rpm area.

right now, I get just under 20 mpg with a 3.1 & 4.10 4-speed, & ADS Superchip. I know the chip is the main problem with my milage. next being the 4.10 gearing.

and, since I will be using DIS, I think the timing advance & the fuel deleivery will be ALOT better with the 7730 over the stock ECM in the upper RPMS.

but, since I have no existing baseline for my power - I will never know.....I was gonna dyno last spring, after I gutted my intake, but my dist gear failed, and that set off a chain reaction of internal failures....


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #395, 12-18-2007 02:05 PM
      The programs available for the 7730 are much more tunable than those available for the Fiero ECM.

You can't just liberate power through a computer. A stock engine's already tuned about as well as it can be tuned and still run well on any gas from any pump anywhere in the country. What little gains in power that can be had over the stock tune can only be had in relatively restrictive conditions like 91 octane only, runs poorly in hot weather, etc.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-18-2007).]

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #396, 12-18-2007 02:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
The programs available for the 7730 are much more tunable than those available for the Fiero ECM.

You can't just liberate power through a computer. A stock engine's already tuned about as well as it can be tuned and still run well on any gas from any pump anywhere in the country. What little gains in power that can be had over the stock tune can only be had in relatively restrictive conditions like 91 octane only, runs poorly in hot weather, etc.


yup. but, I always was under the impression that the stock chip & ecm just dont do well after 4500 RPM. not sure if this is a ECM limit, a chip limit, or just a programming limit, since the intake dont let anymore air thru anyways. I expect there is also timing advance limit when using a distributer, but, I dont think a OHV motor will ever acheive RPM's to hit that limit. you can only adjust the timing within range of the rotor hitting the post, after all.


Doug85GT MSG #397, 12-18-2007 03:49 PM
      I believe that there will be hp and fuel milage increases from what I have read. Here are my reasons why:

1. The new ECU incorporates a knock sensor. This usually means that the ECU will advance timing a lot more than a ECU that does not have a knock sensor. Once it sees knock, it will then back off the timing just enough to stop knocking. The end result is more power.

2. The ECU updates much quicker which means that real time adjustments will be quicker and smoother. The stock ECU updating every 1.5 seconds is the very bad for high rpm performance. At 4500 rpms the engine rotated 112.5 times between ECU updates. At 10 times per second only 7.5 rotations go by between updates. Combine that with a knock sensor and the ECU can be much more aggresive with fuel and timing since it can correct 15 times faster than the old ECU. This means it can run higher timing advance and leaner A/F ratios resulting in more power. How much more power is my question. I have no doubt that there is more power, though.

3. The electric EGR valve can increase gas milage. To understand this, you have to recall how and why the EGR system works. It reduces emissions by recirculating exhaust gasses into the engine. Those exhaust gasses have much lower oxygen content and in effect, they reduce the amount of air going into the engine during cruising. Therefore, it reduces the gasoline consumption. A drawback to having a vacuum acutated system is that you do not have fine control over the EGR valve. The amount it is open depends strictly on how much vacuum your engine is drawing. With an electric EGR valve, the ECU can control precisely how much exhaust gas is being recirculated and can therefore reduce the amount of fuel going into the engine. This should result in higher gas milage.

So my question is simply, how much power and gas milage will increase. I'm going to take a guess here and I will predict 5-8 more hp and about 2-3 more MPG city and 3-4 more MPG highway.

[This message has been edited by Doug85GT (edited 12-18-2007).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #398, 12-18-2007 04:01 PM
      I would say 5-8 HP might not be out of the question. Remember, if there were significant gains to be made by shaping the timing and fuel curves above 4800 RPM, GM would have mapped the stock ECM with appropriate curves. I think the fact that they chose to develop the stock program with flat timing and fuel curves above 4800 RPM means that they didn't think there was anything more to get in that part of the map. I believe this is a hardware limitation. The 2.8 isn't doing anything but making noise in that RPM range.

I think that 1 MPG on the highway is about all you'd see from the digital EGR.

My Formula would return 27.5 mpg on the highway at 80 mph or so. A 3-4 mpg gain would put it at 30.5-31.5. Fuel mileage gains from EGR come from reduced pumping losses, which occur through the reduction of manifold vacuum. I just don't think there's that much pumping loss in that engine at that power level.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 12-18-2007).]

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #399, 12-18-2007 08:27 PM
      What hardware and software is best to use for tuning the 7730 ECM?

Mr.PBody (paniccia008@aol.com) MSG #400, 12-18-2007 08:35 PM
      Sinister performance tuning lol, for $50.00 why mess around

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #401, 12-18-2007 10:09 PM
      "Why mess around" is exactly why I want to do the tuning myself. No offense to Darth, but I'd rather "dial in" the ECM programming myself, instead of playing the mail order game.

megafreakindeth MSG #402, 12-19-2007 07:08 AM
      while slightly inconvienent, mailing in the datalogs and waiting for the chip works rather well. ive had my motor tuned by him, if you pull the plugs out today youll c theyre nice and amber and very clean. i dont think theres much to 'dial in' but theres alot of knowledge which i and most people dont have. they do a great job.

ALLTRBO MSG #403, 12-19-2007 07:11 AM
      Some people like to get it "close enough" the easy and effective way, and that's fine. Others like to learn to dial it in themselves to any degree they desire, and that's also fine. One way isn't necessarily better than the other.


On the software side, I use Tunerpro RT for the Camaro and I love it. It's free, but I gave Mark a donation anyway.
http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/

The hardware side of things comes from Craig Moates, as he has everything in one place for reasonable prices and I've personally never had a problem with his customer support. There are several options to interface the '730 depending on what exactly you want to do with it.
http://www.moates.net/

The two work together a bit to ensure compatibility for most of the stuff, which is also nice. There are a few other options, but this is what I and many others have successfully done.


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #404, 12-19-2007 09:37 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I would say 5-8 HP might not be out of the question. Remember, if there were significant gains to be made by shaping the timing and fuel curves above 4800 RPM, GM would have mapped the stock ECM with appropriate curves. I think the fact that they chose to develop the stock program with flat timing and fuel curves above 4800 RPM means that they didn't think there was anything more to get in that part of the map. I believe this is a hardware limitation. The 2.8 isn't doing anything but making noise in that RPM range.

I think that 1 MPG on the highway is about all you'd see from the digital EGR.

My Formula would return 27.5 mpg on the highway at 80 mph or so. A 3-4 mpg gain would put it at 30.5-31.5. Fuel mileage gains from EGR come from reduced pumping losses, which occur through the reduction of manifold vacuum. I just don't think there's that much pumping loss in that engine at that power level.


I agree - all thing being the same - no or little gains.
I think the flatness of the high rpm area on the stock ECM is because the intake limit has been reached, and nothing more can be gained.

that being said - my 3.1 gets just under 20 mpg on a manual trans. yes, its a 4.10 - but that shouldn't be killing it THAT badly. I think the main cause is the ADS Superchip. anyways - I am expecting 25mpg when this is done. but, being I have changed alot of other crap also - I will never know which item did what.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #405, 12-19-2007 02:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

"Why mess around" is exactly why I want to do the tuning myself. No offense to Darth, but I'd rather "dial in" the ECM programming myself, instead of playing the mail order game.



There's nothing wrong with doing the tuning yourself. In fact, I encourage it; espeically for those who have highly modified or boosted applications. I even have a whole page on my website devoted to helping the DIY'er figure out how to get started and do the work themselves.

Having said that, there are people who simply don't want to spend the money to buy all of the hardware and software they need to do their own tuning. Or perhaps they don't have the time to learn how to do it themselves. Regardless of the reason, I provide that service the best way I can thru mail order; and that's by requesting scan data from the customer should it be needed.

-ryan



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #406, 12-19-2007 02:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


I agree - all thing being the same - no or little gains.
I think the flatness of the high rpm area on the stock ECM is because the intake limit has been reached, and nothing more can be gained.

that being said - my 3.1 gets just under 20 mpg on a manual trans. yes, its a 4.10 - but that shouldn't be killing it THAT badly. I think the main cause is the ADS Superchip. anyways - I am expecting 25mpg when this is done. but, being I have changed alot of other crap also - I will never know which item did what.


The high RPM power limitations of the stock 2.8 have been discussed. My $0.02 on the matter is the MPFI intake used on the Fiero 2.8 was designed during an era at GM in which they were looking to make the most power out of the engine without having to rev it to the moon. This allowed them to save money by using cheaper valvetrain and internal engine components. It is well known in the performance automotive circles that in order for engines to survive repeated high RPM operation, they need to have very good (and usually expensive) parts installed in the valvetrain and bottom end. GM in the 80's wasn't in the best financial shape, so they cut corners everywhere they could. EFI was a must-do because of the emissions regulations.

The biggest problem with the stock 2.8's power limitations is the long runner design of the intake, the restrictive cylinder head ports, and the minimal size and restrictive design of the exhaust system. All three parts of the engine's components are responsible for the power limitations of the engine. So you simply cannot just replace one component out of these three and expect the engine to produce a lot more power; or produce that power higher in the RPM band. The Iron-Head 2.8, 3.1, and 3.4 engines never produced good upper-RPM power. In fact, concerning pushrod V6 engines; we didn't see a decent upper-RPM power producing engine come from GM until the introduction of the 3100 V6 in 1994. As designs progressed, the upper plenums of these pushrod engines came with shorter intake runner lengths (as well as larger diameters). The latest offerings for the pushrod 60 deg V6 are quite impressive for their size and design:

3500 OHV V6: 211hp @ 5800 rpm / 220tq @ 4400rpm

3900 OHV VVT V6: 242hp @ 6000rpm / 242tq @ 4800rpm

So basically what this all boils down to is the power limitations of the stock Fiero 2.8 engine aren't because of the factory ECM. Now the reason for the "upgrade" to the 7730 ECM is because the 7730 is more "hacked" than the Fiero units; is faster; is more capable; and can just plain do a lot more than the Fiero ECM. One of the more interesting features of the 7730 when using the $88 code mask is there is a "highway mode fuel" function that leans out the AFR periodically during certain steady cruising situations. This can increase fuel economy by 2 or 3 mpg (estimated) depending on the driving habits of the owner. This system only kicks in during light cruising loads so don't expect it to work if you are flying down the interstate at 80mph.

The owner of the car I originally did this swap for told me the best fuel economy he has seen out of his Fiero since the upgrade was 40mpg. But you need to keep in mind I also installed a 440T4 auto OD trans with 2.84 gearing into his car at the same time so his case is probably the best you will ever see. His specs are far from being optimal for best performance but that wasn't what he was concerned with.

-ryan


Mister MSG #407, 12-19-2007 06:50 PM
      Always great info here Thanks.

 
quote
Originally posted by Gwain:
I'm waiting to get the "revised" plate back in machining. Last week with Thanksgiving, was a short week, and this week we've been "swamped" (because last week was a short week)!


Any news about the EGR adapter Gwain?


Gwain (mjfinfla@gmail.com) MSG #408, 12-19-2007 08:38 PM
      We're setting up to run the revised EGR plates now. I'm probably going to make about 5 or 6 in total. I feel pretty secure the redesign will finalize this thing, but of course we'll have Darth Fiero give it the acid test and final blessing.

I'm going to make the extras available at $25 to anybody who wants one. After that, $35. I don't really expect a big market for these, and I'm not really set up to market them myself. I hope someone will pick up that ball after we'ver proofed them.

I'll post when the sample goes to Darth.



rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #409, 12-19-2007 08:47 PM
      Please put me as #1 on the list for wanting one of the adapter plates.

Mister MSG #410, 12-20-2007 12:35 AM
      Marc, it goes without saying that I would order 1 adapter from the first approved batch

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 12-20-2007).]

What about Bob (rherriges@sbcglobal.net) MSG #411, 12-20-2007 07:40 AM
      I would also like an adapter from the first "approved" batch. And thank you for your work on these.



Gwain (mjfinfla@gmail.com) MSG #412, 12-20-2007 08:17 AM
      OK, guys, what I need from all of you is PM me with a mailing address.

These things will fit in an envelope, so I'll try to get them out before the Christmas break.

As to payment, send me a check or money order, once you're confident they'll work for you. I'm not set up as a retail outlet, so I can't handle credit cards, or Paypal or the like.



Fierofreak00 (jason_crego@hotmail.com) MSG #413, 12-20-2007 12:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Gwain:

OK, guys, what I need from all of you is PM me with a mailing address.

These things will fit in an envelope, so I'll try to get them out before the Christmas break.

As to payment, send me a check or money order, once you're confident they'll work for you. I'm not set up as a retail outlet, so I can't handle credit cards, or Paypal or the like.

PM sent. -Jason



DandRauto MSG #414, 12-20-2007 10:09 PM
      2 PMs sent
I would like one


What about Bob (rherriges@sbcglobal.net) MSG #415, 12-21-2007 06:23 AM
      PM sent



rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #416, 12-21-2007 12:15 PM
      P.M. sent

Gwain (mjfinfla@gmail.com) MSG #417, 12-21-2007 02:29 PM
      Just to bring everyone up to speed on the EGR Adapter plate.

I've mailed out the updated plate to Darthfiero for a final fit check. I'm pretty confident that if the changes he sent me were all that was needed, these revised plates should be ready to go.

For all of you who have PM'd me with mailing address info. I've sent your plates out as well. If Darthfiero posts that they're good to go, then you'll already have yours in hand. If for some reason he feels there are additional changes to be made, then all of you will have some interesting paper weights!

Rather than PM each of you back individually, I put a note in with the plate as to how you can pay me, etc. if everything works out.

Waiting to hear like everybody else.



3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #418, 12-21-2007 04:28 PM
      hey darth i just recived my ecu with wires and memcal the memcal chip # delco ATWY 7624 its out of a 89 beretta 2.8 5spd its a 01227730 is this going to work for my turbo app?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #419, 12-21-2007 04:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

hey darth i just recived my ecu with wires and memcal the memcal chip # delco ATWY 7624 its out of a 89 beretta 2.8 5spd its a 01227730 is this going to work for my turbo app?


Should; email me with specifics of your project and I'll let you know for sure.

sp1@gmtuners.com

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-08-2008).]

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #420, 12-21-2007 04:43 PM
      so what do you need to know there is a lot of stuff on the form you sent me
jamin


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #421, 12-21-2007 06:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

so what do you need to know there is a lot of stuff on the form you sent me
jamin


Fill out everything on the form that is applicable to your vehicle/what you need the chip for. If you need help understanding what a question is asking on the form, PM or email me for assistance.

-ryan


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #422, 12-21-2007 07:33 PM
      how much of this relates to the fiero?

VEHICLE INFO

Vehicle you are working with Year/Make/Model:________________________________

ECM or PCM Service Number:_____________________ PROM BCC: __________

ENGINE: (vehicle origin) TRANSMISSION: (vehicle origin)
Year:_____________ Year:______________

Make/Model:_____________________ Make/Model:________________________

Eng Type:_____________________ Trans Type:__________________________

Engine Compression Ratio: ___.___ :1 -or- □ Stock

Power Adder: □ None □ Nitrous Oxide □ Turbo □ Supercharged (check one)

If so, please list amount of boost or N²O shot: __________________

Please list what temperature THERMOSTAT you are using: __________ °F

Injector Size: __________ lb/hr –or- □ Stock to engine

Ignition System Type: □ Distributor □ Distributorless/Coil Pack

Rear end or overall gear ratio: __________:1 Tire Size: _________________

Speed Sensor: □ Stock to trans -or- Vehicle Origin: ____________________

Current Speedometer Error: _______________________ (+ or - % of actual)

Please list any and all modifications to the engine other than what was factory equipment: (Aftermarket heads? Cam? Porting and polishing? Aftermarket intake and/or throttle body?)

_______________________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________________

Please list what size exhaust pipe and what type of muffler you are using and if you have a catalytic converter:

_______________________________________________________________________

Please list what you are using for the induction system, size of the induction tubing, what type and size of air filter, etc.:

_______________________________________________________________________

Please list what brand and model FUEL PUMP you are using (if not stock):

_______________________________________________________________________



3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #423, 12-21-2007 08:16 PM
      how do i wire in a dis ignition sys to my 3.4l and what sensors do i need?

The_Ikon MSG #424, 12-22-2007 01:47 AM
      TTT

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #425, 12-23-2007 12:57 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

how much of this relates to the fiero?



ALL of this if you are using a non-electronic transmission:

 
quote


VEHICLE INFO

Vehicle you are working with Year/Make/Model:________________________________

ECM or PCM Service Number:_____________________ PROM BCC: __________

ENGINE: (vehicle origin) TRANSMISSION: (vehicle origin)
Year:_____________ Year:______________

Make/Model:_____________________ Make/Model:________________________

Eng Type:_____________________ Trans Type:__________________________

Engine Compression Ratio: ___.___ :1 -or- □ Stock

Power Adder: □ None □ Nitrous Oxide □ Turbo □ Supercharged (check one)

If so, please list amount of boost or N²O shot: __________________

Please list what temperature THERMOSTAT you are using: __________ °F

Injector Size: __________ lb/hr –or- □ Stock to engine

Ignition System Type: □ Distributor □ Distributorless/Coil Pack

Rear end or overall gear ratio: __________:1 Tire Size: _________________

Speed Sensor: □ Stock to trans -or- Vehicle Origin: ____________________

Current Speedometer Error: _______________________ (+ or - % of actual)

Please list any and all modifications to the engine other than what was factory equipment: (Aftermarket heads? Cam? Porting and polishing? Aftermarket intake and/or throttle body?)

_______________________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________________________________

Please list what size exhaust pipe and what type of muffler you are using and if you have a catalytic converter:

_______________________________________________________________________

Please list what you are using for the induction system, size of the induction tubing, what type and size of air filter, etc.:

_______________________________________________________________________

Please list what brand and model FUEL PUMP you are using (if not stock):

_______________________________________________________________________



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #426, 12-23-2007 01:01 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

how do i wire in a dis ignition sys to my 3.4l and what sensors do i need?


First the engine you are using (in your case a 3.4L) must already have provisions in the block for the crank sensor and reluctor wheel notches machined out of the crank for the crank sensor to read. The crank sensor connects directly to the ignition module via a small, seperate wiring harness (twisted pair of wires). The ignition module has 2 other plugs on it; one connects to ignition power and ground, and the other connects to the tach and computer. For wiring up the DIS coil pack to the 7730 ECM, use 1991-93 Chevy Beretta 3.1L ECM wiring diagrams; which you can download from my website.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 12-23-2007).]

cropduster MSG #427, 12-23-2007 10:13 AM
      Gwain,
PM sent



megafreakindeth MSG #428, 12-23-2007 12:28 PM
      so a 7727 and 7730 are the same thing/different case? i was at the jy confused as hell cause i couldnt find a 7730. all the cars wth the right egr were 7727s. can i go and grab a 7727 with no problems?

Gwain (mjfinfla@gmail.com) MSG #429, 12-24-2007 08:20 AM
      Here's the latest update on the EGR Adapter Plates.

I've sent the revised sample plate to DarthFiero and we'll all be waiting for his evaluation. I'm reasonably confident we should be good with the changes.

I've also shipped out 6 additional plates, to those who contacted me with address information. At this point I've used up all the extra plates I ran. Since the job is still set-up, we'll probably run some more after the holiday break and put them on the shelf for now.

Anybody has any questions or issues, PM me.



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #430, 12-24-2007 08:40 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by megafreakindeth:

so a 7727 and 7730 are the same thing/different case? i was at the jy confused as hell cause i couldnt find a 7730. all the cars wth the right egr were 7727s. can i go and grab a 7727 with no problems?


From what I've read it seems the two ECM's work the same but have slightly different pinouts. The 7727 has 4 connectors and the 7730 has 3 connectors. Anyone know where to find the 7727 pinout diagram?

I am going to use the digital EGR that came off the '95 Camaro 3.4L engine I swapped using a 7730 ECM.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #431, 12-24-2007 06:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by megafreakindeth:

so a 7727 and 7730 are the same thing/different case? i was at the jy confused as hell cause i couldnt find a 7730. all the cars wth the right egr were 7727s. can i go and grab a 7727 with no problems?


Yes the 7727 and 7730 are virtually the same computer. But the difference is in the case and in the computer connectors. The 7727 has a sealed case and uses different connectors and wiring terminals that are sealed against the weather so it can be mounted in the engine compartment.

PROBLEM: The stock Fiero 2.8 harness computer wiring terminals are NOT compatible with the 7727 ECM. So if you wanted to use your stock Fiero wiring harness with the 7727 ECM, you would need to cut off the wiring terminals on your harness and either get the correct terminals and crimp them on or splice in wires that have the correct wiring terminals already. Either way will require a significant amount of work. It's better just to use a 7730 ECM. If you are having trouble finding a used 7730 ECM, try: http://www.car-part.com and search for an ENGINE COMPUTER out of a 1988-93 Chevy Beretta car equipped with the 2.8 or 3.1 V6 engine.


 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:


From what I've read it seems the two ECM's work the same but have slightly different pinouts. The 7727 has 4 connectors and the 7730 has 3 connectors. Anyone know where to find the 7727 pinout diagram?



Yes, you can download the pinouts from my website. The 7727 was used in 1988-92 GM W-body cars (Lumina, Grand Prix, Regal, Cutlass Supreme) equipped with the 2.8 or 3.1 V6 engine.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #432, 12-24-2007 06:34 PM
      Just a quick bump to wish everyone a MERRY CHRISTMAS!



-ryan



Mister MSG #433, 12-24-2007 08:07 PM
      Merry X-mas to all and thanks again to the guys making this swap possible:

Darth Fiero, ohio86se and Gwain.

New year resolution...New(er) ECM...



megafreakindeth MSG #434, 12-26-2007 01:30 PM
      ah well if its really different then never mind. i figured having a weather sealed one would actually be better since it would hopefully be made stronger and more durable. as for repinning the ecm to work, with the 7730 i can just pull out the pins in my ecm connector and put em into the 7730 connectors? i was anticipating just cutting and soldering the whole thing but that would be a whole lot better.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #435, 12-26-2007 03:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by megafreakindeth:

. as for repinning the ecm to work, with the 7730 i can just pull out the pins in my ecm connector and put em into the 7730 connectors?


yes



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #436, 12-26-2007 09:18 PM
     
 
quote
megafreakindeth said: as for repinning the ecm to work, with the 7730 i can just pull out the pins in my ecm connector and put em into the 7730 connectors?

I posted this on page 9, but I'll dredge it up again:
    Re-pinning the ECM connectors is simple and easy, but is time consuming. You can remove the pins from the housings using a sewing needle or a paperclip. Then, using Darth's instructions, insert the pins into the appropriate spots in the 7730 ECM connectors.

Also, in case anyone was wondering, my stalling issue was no fault of the ECM. The throttle body had some slack, so it didn't always close completely. The inconsistent TPS readings at idle were confusing the ECM.


ohio86se (rick44314@gmail.com) MSG #437, 12-27-2007 07:49 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Mister:

Merry X-mas to all and thanks again to the guys making this swap possible:

Darth Fiero, ohio86se and Gwain.

New year resolution...New(er) ECM...



Merry be-lated Christmas. Have a Happy and SAFE New Year!!



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #438, 12-30-2007 12:41 AM
      The revised EGR adapter plate showed up today. A test fit using parts I had here revealed the corrections made to the design of this unit was what it needed. Everybody should be good to go with the revised EGR adapter plates. In case I forgot to mention it, you will need to remove the factory Fiero 2.8 EGR mounting studs, clean out the threads in the crossover pipe (M8 x 1.25 metric thread) and use new allen-head metric cap bolts with this adapter so the heads of the bolts clear the digital EGR as shown below...




Now that we got that solved, something has come up that I think is worth mentioning in this thread. I have been contacted by a few people who say they are confused with the wiring terminal designations used on some 7730 ECMs. The confusion stems from the fact that on some wiring diagrams a terminal may be referred to as "A11" but on others it is referred to as "BA11". First let me assure everyone that all 7730 ECMs are the same. GM just changed the designations for PIN ID's for these ECMs starting in the 90's.

To break this new terminal designation down for everyone; lets use the example: "BA10"...

1st letter (B) = connector color
2nd letter (A) = "A" side of the connector (A and B are usually used to describe 24 pin connectors; C, D, E, and F are usually used to describe 32 pin connectors)
3rd number (10) = position of the terminal in that side of the connector.

To give some examples: BA3 refers to the 24pin black connector, terminal A3. BC2 refers to the 32pin black connector, terminal C2. When you see something like GE4, then that refers to the 32pin green connector, terminal E4. Or if you see YF3, then that refers to the 32 pin yellow connector, terminal F3. The 7730 accepts both YELLOW and GREEN connectors.

Hopefully this explaination clears up some of the confusion.

-ryan


Mister MSG #439, 12-30-2007 11:39 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero: Everybody should be good to go with the revised EGR adapter plates.
-ryan


Great news THANKS



Gwain (mjfinfla@gmail.com) MSG #440, 01-02-2008 12:34 PM
      For those of you who have not received your EGR plate yet (you'll know that you're one if you haven't received it):

I did not quite anticipate the demand, and did not run enough to cover all interested parties initially!

We're doing another run this week to cover the rest of you, and put some on the shelf for later. I tried to ship in the order I received addresses. Sorry for the delays.



FierOmar (davidcordier@sbcglobal.net) MSG #441, 01-03-2008 10:53 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Gwain:
For those of you who have not received your EGR plate yet (you'll know that you're one if you haven't received it):

I did not quite anticipate the demand, and did not run enough to cover all interested parties initially!

We're doing another run this week to cover the rest of you, and put some on the shelf for later. I tried to ship in the order I received addresses. Sorry for the delays.



PM sent.



Mister MSG #442, 01-08-2008 10:54 PM
      Got the adapter plate today
As promised...



What a pro this guy Gwain, plate arrived nicely packed with a printed letter, business card and CAD file.
I will do business with him anytime, If we weren't so far away LOL.

A++



Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #443, 01-11-2008 08:32 AM
      while re-pinning my ECM connectors - I found an error in my wiring harness

on the Fiero ECM connector, there are 2 lines for each injector bank control. while pulling the terminals from the Fiero ECM and plugging into the 7730 ECM, one at a time - I come across what looks like an error in Darth's re-pinning diagram. here is a green wire which is supposed to be a blue wire, and a blue wire where there should be a green wire. the car ran, so it must be the diagram - not the harness....start digging into this....

here is what we got
2 green for inj bank A, and 2 blue for inj bank B. Not sure why - probably because the old Fiero ECM internal switch doesnt have the nutz to switch the injectors, so, it needed to split the load. anyways, in the wiring harness, there is only 1 wire for inj A & 1 wire for inj B. which means there is a "Y" for the wire to split into 2 terminals. I saw they did this for a MAP terminal also. anyways - I follow one of the leads down to the "Y". I find the factory had mixed up the "Y" wires. the "main" blue wire had a 2nd green lead tied to it at the "Y", and the main green wire had a blue lead tied to it at the "Y". ug. anyways - since the new ECM uses only 1 terminal now, just cut the wrong "Y" lead off, and all was happy again. but, boy did it confuse me untill I saw what went wrong. had I followed the incorrect wiring color code of the wiring harness - I would have had a VERY messed up injection system, either having only 1 bank of 3 injectors firing constatnly - or having all 6 firing as one bank constantly.

re-pinning is pretty easy, once you get the hang of it. for the "release tool" - I am using a bent open hair pin. works nice. remove enough electrical tape from the harness, so you can handle single wires, put the connector in a vice, hang the wiring, so it doesnt "pull" on the connector. if you look into the face of the connector, you see 4 rows of holes. the outter are the realease holes. in them, you will see the realease tab, on one side of the hole. stick the tool/hairpin into the hole, flat along the realease tab, you'll feel it hit bottom, maybe even hear the tab realease, now pull the wire out. that easy. they do make an official tool for this also. I expect that works even better. the hairpin is slightly to narrow, and sometimes misses the realease, and is soft, so you need to flip it over a few times as it bends.


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #444, 01-11-2008 08:38 AM
      Now I'm going to have to check my wiring too. Thanks for the heads up.

How long before she fires up?


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #445, 01-11-2008 10:52 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:
Now I'm going to have to check my wiring too. Thanks for the heads up.

How long before she fires up?


I'm sure mine was just a bad day at the factory. but - no harm in chacking. it fairly easy to spot.
on the Fiero connector: C15 & D16 should be blue (on mine D16 was green) and D14 & D15 should be green (on mine D15 was blue)
on the 7730 connector its BC11 should be blue - just follow it back to a taped up spot - thats where the "Y" is. make sure it is blue after that also
BC12 is the green one. same thing - follow it back to the taped up spot - make sure it green after that also.


also - if anyone interested - I have a 3 solenoid EGR valve - never used (except for engine break-in) - engine was never in a car - $40. PM if interested


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #446, 01-11-2008 01:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:
2 green for inj bank A, and 2 blue for inj bank B. Not sure why - probably because the old Fiero ECM internal switch doesnt have the nutz to switch the injectors, so, it needed to split the load. anyways, in the wiring harness, there is only 1 wire for inj A & 1 wire for inj B. which means there is a "Y" for the wire to split into 2 terminals. I saw they did this for a MAP terminal also. anyways - I follow one of the leads down to the "Y". I find the factory had mixed up the "Y" wires. the "main" blue wire had a 2nd green lead tied to it at the "Y", and the main green wire had a blue lead tied to it at the "Y". ug. anyways - since the new ECM uses only 1 terminal now, just cut the wrong "Y" lead off, and all was happy again. but, boy did it confuse me untill I saw what went wrong. had I followed the incorrect wiring color code of the wiring harness - I would have had a VERY messed up injection system, either having only 1 bank of 3 injectors firing constatnly - or having all 6 firing as one bank constantly.

The wiring on my car was like that, also. Like you, I just snipped the wrong colored legs off the injector Y-junctions, and removed the redundant wires from the sensor circuits.

To give Darth some credit, he does specify the correct wires to use for the injectors. He just has the colors for the ones to delete backwards. As long as you follow the pin numbers, you'll be fine.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 01-11-2008).]

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #447, 01-11-2008 01:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:
The wiring on my car was like that, also. Like you, I just snipped the wrong colored legs off the injector Y-junctions, and removed the redundant wires from the sensor circuits.

To give Darth some credit, he does specify the correct wires to use for the injectors. He just has the colors for the ones to delete backwards. As long as you follow the pin numbers, you'll be fine.


wow, what year is yours? mines 85

and, yes - if you follow his sheet - it will be fine. it just scared me when I went to pull D15 and it was blue - not green. had to make sure what was what.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #448, 01-11-2008 03:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

To give Darth some credit, he does specify the correct wires to use for the injectors. He just has the colors for the ones to delete backwards. As long as you follow the pin numbers, you'll be fine.



To be honest it really doesn't matter on the injector wiring. Both injector outputs from the 7730 fire at the same time; thus all 6 injectors fire at the same time. So it really doesn't matter how you have them hooked up to the ECM.



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #449, 01-11-2008 10:26 PM
      To Pyrthian: Mine is an '87. But I bought the wiring harness from the Fiero Factory. It could've come from an '85, '86, or '87. I'm not sure.

To darth Fiero: That's good to know. Thanks for the info.


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #450, 01-13-2008 06:15 PM
      well, my next stumblingblock: the crank sensor
since I am also adding the DIS, I need to wire this in also. I went to the local "u-pull-it" yard, and cut off the connectors for the DIS module. took em home, and compared them to my schematic (89 baretta) and noticed the 3-pin crank position sensor was wired different than the schematic shows. in the schematic, it shows 2 wires, and I guess a shielding sleeve wired to the center post - using all 3 connectors. on the one I brought home - there are only 2, one of them being the center post. so, I wnet thru the PDF's Darth had posted, and noticed on the 93 Firebird - it 2 wires, one of them being the center post. and, checking more into this - looks like they used a twisted pair instead of sheilding. and - the thing that makes me worry is: the way its labelled in the PDF. the post are "A C B" not "A B C" like all the others. is this a typo on one of them?

so, the Q: can I use the twisted pair connector as is? are there different crank sensors & different DIS modules?
I expect not, they are the same, just 2 different approaches for noise suppression. on the connection between them



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #451, 01-13-2008 09:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

well, my next stumblingblock: the crank sensor
since I am also adding the DIS, I need to wire this in also. I went to the local "u-pull-it" yard, and cut off the connectors for the DIS module. took em home, and compared them to my schematic (89 baretta) and noticed the 3-pin crank position sensor was wired different than the schematic shows. in the schematic, it shows 2 wires, and I guess a shielding sleeve wired to the center post - using all 3 connectors. on the one I brought home - there are only 2, one of them being the center post. so, I wnet thru the PDF's Darth had posted, and noticed on the 93 Firebird - it 2 wires, one of them being the center post. and, checking more into this - looks like they used a twisted pair instead of sheilding. and - the thing that makes me worry is: the way its labelled in the PDF. the post are "A C B" not "A B C" like all the others. is this a typo on one of them?

so, the Q: can I use the twisted pair connector as is? are there different crank sensors & different DIS modules?
I expect not, they are the same, just 2 different approaches for noise suppression. on the connection between them


Just use the twisted pair of wires as-is. Most of the time this is what I find on 3.1 DIS systems; no shield wire.

-ryan


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #452, 01-16-2008 12:24 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
just use the twisted pair of wires as-is. Most of the time this is what I find on 3.1 DIS systems; no shield wire.

-ryan


thanks - thought that was the way to go.

anyways - while wiring up the rest of the DIS system - I was totally amazed that ALL of the existing Fiero distributer wiring transfers, wire color & all to the DIS module, and, for the power, the remaining EGR wires (A & D) work perfectly. the only thing that needs to be added is the twisted pair from the crank sensor to the DIS module. I thought this was gonna be a maze of wires. removing my A/C is more complicated than switching to the DIS.

and, yes, I am just going blindly step by step with no "pre made" plan.... a rough idea - but no plan.....


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #453, 01-16-2008 02:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


thanks - thought that was the way to go.

anyways - while wiring up the rest of the DIS system - I was totally amazed that ALL of the existing Fiero distributer wiring transfers, wire color & all to the DIS module, and, for the power, the remaining EGR wires (A & D) work perfectly. the only thing that needs to be added is the twisted pair from the crank sensor to the DIS module. I thought this was gonna be a maze of wires. removing my A/C is more complicated than switching to the DIS.

and, yes, I am just going blindly step by step with no "pre made" plan.... a rough idea - but no plan.....


GM has been kind to us in keeping with the same color wires that serve the same function across car/truck and engine lines. Sure beats some imports I remember installing remote starts into that had sometimes as much as 8 wires under the dash that were all the same color but all had different functions!


PaulJK MSG #454, 01-20-2008 05:38 PM
      Darth, sorry if these questions have already been asked but:

1. Does this upgrade still allow the "Check Engine" light to function like stock ?

2. Do you require a "core" ECU for this upgrade ?

Thanks


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #455, 01-21-2008 03:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by PaulJK:

Darth, sorry if these questions have already been asked but:

1. Does this upgrade still allow the "Check Engine" light to function like stock ?

2. Do you require a "core" ECU for this upgrade ?

Thanks


1) YES

2) I'm not sure what you're asking. A core implies that you are buying a 7730 ECM upgrade "kit" from someone; which none are being sold by me or anyone else that I am aware of. If you are going to do this upgrade or have it done by someone else, then you will either need to supply the 7730 ECM or pay for the purchase of one. Then you will need the mem-cal out of this ECM reprogrammed for the application. If your 7730 ECM doesn't come with a compatible V6 mem-cal, you will have to buy one seperately.



PaulJK MSG #456, 01-21-2008 04:34 PM
      OK - I was unsure that, to make this purchase from you, if i needed to send you an ECU with $$$ and you send me the new ECU, or do I just send you $$$ ? i think you answered it though. Thank you

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 01-21-2008).]

rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #457, 01-21-2008 10:07 PM
      Darth, I just wanted to be sure I got the right ECM. I have a label on mine that has:

SERV. NO. 16196404 BFAU

*86BFAUM832210326*

and the MEMCAL reads DELCO BFAU 0172

I got this out of a Z-16 Beretta.....not sure what year, but an earlier post with an ECM look-up link shows this as a '91-'93 PFI LHO. The MEMCAL code doesn't match what the link has tho'. I know I read somewhere in this thread that there might be a company making a crank-trigger that could be used to convert the original Fiero 2.8 to use the DIS feature? Any line on this? Do you know who makes this? Lastly, can someone tell me how to get that darned distributor plug / oil pump drive out of a 3.1? I fought with two very exposed units on partially dismantled 3.1's but could not get them to pull out of the block, they spun freely, but would not lift out!

Thanks


cropduster MSG #458, 01-22-2008 07:00 AM
      Those plugs are just held in by stuck O-rings. Pull harder.



Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #459, 01-22-2008 09:12 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by rjblaze:

Darth, I just wanted to be sure I got the right ECM. I have a label on mine that has:

SERV. NO. 16196404 BFAU

*86BFAUM832210326*

and the MEMCAL reads DELCO BFAU 0172

I got this out of a Z-16 Beretta.....not sure what year, but an earlier post with an ECM look-up link shows this as a '91-'93 PFI LHO. The MEMCAL code doesn't match what the link has tho'. I know I read somewhere in this thread that there might be a company making a crank-trigger that could be used to convert the original Fiero 2.8 to use the DIS feature? Any line on this? Do you know who makes this? Lastly, can someone tell me how to get that darned distributor plug / oil pump drive out of a 3.1? I fought with two very exposed units on partially dismantled 3.1's but could not get them to pull out of the block, they spun freely, but would not lift out!

Thanks


I dunno - dont sound right....
last 4 numbers should be 7730


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #460, 01-22-2008 02:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by rjblaze:

Darth, I just wanted to be sure I got the right ECM. I have a label on mine that has:

SERV. NO. 16196404 BFAU

*86BFAUM832210326*

and the MEMCAL reads DELCO BFAU 0172

I got this out of a Z-16 Beretta.....not sure what year, but an earlier post with an ECM look-up link shows this as a '91-'93 PFI LHO. The MEMCAL code doesn't match what the link has tho'. I know I read somewhere in this thread that there might be a company making a crank-trigger that could be used to convert the original Fiero 2.8 to use the DIS feature? Any line on this? Do you know who makes this? Lastly, can someone tell me how to get that darned distributor plug / oil pump drive out of a 3.1? I fought with two very exposed units on partially dismantled 3.1's but could not get them to pull out of the block, they spun freely, but would not lift out!

Thanks


I haven't seen this ECM service number before, but the PROM BCC looks valid for this application. Does this computer you have look like the 7730 ECM I have pictured in this first post of this thread? If so, we might be able to use it (this might be one of those cases where GM updated the ECM for an application and changed the service number).

EDIT TO ADD: I just checked and I do have a stock BFAU chip program on file and it does appear to be compatible with the 7730 ECM; so the computer and mem-cal you have SHOULD work for this application.

-ryan

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 01-22-2008).]

rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #461, 01-23-2008 06:14 AM
      Thanks Darth. It does look exactly like the one in the first post. So far I seem to be in business! Now to just figure out a crank trigger upgrade for the 2.8. (without pulling the motor for a crank swap)

JazzMan (jazzman@fierocentral.com) MSG #462, 01-23-2008 08:46 AM
      Anyone happen to remember what page of this thread that the car list that these came in was posted? I've only got a few minutes of internet time a day and was therefore hesitant to go digging through all 12 pages myself.

JazzMan


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #463, 01-23-2008 08:52 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:

Anyone happen to remember what page of this thread that the car list that these came in was posted? I've only got a few minutes of internet time a day and was therefore hesitant to go digging through all 12 pages myself.

JazzMan


lol - nope...but, I think it was within the first 3.

but - over all - I think the easy way is to look for alum headed 3.1 MPFI engines - the ones with the wide flat upper plenum.
tho - these wont have the right code mask - unless you plan on DIS also.
finding a distributer based one is not an easy find. in my local u-pull-it - I have only seen ONE V6 firebird.....and it was to new...was also DIS....


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #464, 01-23-2008 09:12 AM
      Here is the list from Advance Auto: (EDIT: not all of these had the 7730 with every engine available. My 87 Century has a Duke with a different ECM. The V6 version had it though.)

BUICK 1987 - 1989 CENTURY
1987 SKYHAWK
CADILLAC 1987 - 1988 CIMARRON
CHEVROLET 1987 - 1993 BERETTA
1987 - 1990 CELEBRITY
1990 - 1992 CAMARO
1987 - 1993 CORSICA
1987 - 1993 CAVALIER
OLDSMOBILE 1987 - 1989 CUTLASS CIERA
1987 FIRENZA
PONTIAC 1987 - 1991 6000
1991 - 1993 SUNBIRD
1990 - 1992 FIREBIRD

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 01-23-2008).]

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #465, 01-23-2008 09:22 AM
      hey i bought a bin file from you and im trying to wire up the 7730 im a little confused on the diagram for intance,
it says to move pin A4 to GF9 how do i tell what pin is A4 or even GF9 ?????????????????????????????????
im sure this was coverd but i cant seem to find it?


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #466, 01-23-2008 10:49 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

hey i bought a bin file from you and im trying to wire up the 7730 im a little confused on the diagram for intance,
it says to move pin A4 to GF9 how do i tell what pin is A4 or even GF9 ?????????????????????????????????
im sure this was coverd but i cant seem to find it?


if you look on the back of the connectors, you will see the letters. they are on the outter corners.
but, the confusing part is the new connector. the "G" is the yellow one. the "B" is one of the 2 black ones. once you spot it, you'll see. bright light helps


rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #467, 01-24-2008 11:44 PM
      Just a heads up for DIS converters. I just found out that a place makes CNC machined external universal crank triggers. The are going to be making more available shortly. The only way (so far) I found to get them was the 60*V6 store for $130.00. I am e-mailing them directly to see if they are available at other places also. The guy from this place TCE was very nice to me and responded very quickly.

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #468, 01-25-2008 08:29 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by rjblaze:

Just a heads up for DIS converters. I just found out that a place makes CNC machined external universal crank triggers. The are going to be making more available shortly. The only way (so far) I found to get them was the 60*V6 store for $130.00. I am e-mailing them directly to see if they are available at other places also. The guy from this place TCE was very nice to me and responded very quickly.


awesome.
just so y'all know: the only extra wire you need to run for DIS is in fact the crank trigger. the existing 2.8 distributer wires are EXACTLY the same - you just move them to a new connector. and, use the power wires from the EGR solenoid for the DIS power, since the 2.8 EGR solenoid is abandoned with the 7730.

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 01-27-2008).]

lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #469, 01-25-2008 12:55 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


awesome.
just so y'all know: the only extra wire you need to run for DIS is in fact the crank trigger. the existing 2.8 distributer wires are EXACTLY the same - you just move them to a new connector. and, use the power wires from the EGR solenoid for the DIS power, since the 2.8 EGR solenoid is abandoned with the 7730. actually - you dont even need the 7730 to run the DIS. with JUST the crank trigger & the DIS block, you can run DIS with a Fiero ECM


Please explain!
I have the SFI 3400 stuff in a box in the basement.


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #470, 01-25-2008 01:37 PM
      oops

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 01-27-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #471, 01-25-2008 01:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


you can run DIS with a Fiero ECM


No you can't. The code mask used in the Fiero ECMs is set up to interface with distributors only. DIS systems have different timing reference points and spark dwell times which aren't 100% compatible with distributor based systems. If you want to run DIS, then you will need to be running the 7730 or other DIS-compatible ECM.

-ryan



Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #472, 01-25-2008 02:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
No you can't. The code mask used in the Fiero ECMs is set up to interface with distributors only. DIS systems have different timing reference points and spark dwell times which aren't 100% compatible with distributor based systems. If you want to run DIS, then you will need to be running the 7730 or other DIS-compatible ECM.

-ryan


bummer. it sure looked like it sofar.
I was basing on the amazing consistancy I have been seeing in the different setups I have been looking at, while wiring in my 7730. especially the 3.1 Camaro, which is dist based, using what looks like a classic ignition module, running on the 7730. I was thinking the backward compatibility for that might also be a forward compatibility for us.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #473, 01-25-2008 02:07 PM
      You can run a distributor engine using the 7730 and appropriate code mask (like the $8D), or you can change code masks (say, to the $A1) and run a DIS engine with the 7730

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #474, 01-25-2008 02:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
You can run a distributor engine using the 7730 and appropriate code mask (like the $8D), or you can change code masks (say, to the $A1) and run a DIS engine with the 7730


yup - I was just assuming the actual signals were as consistant as everything else. but, I guess I should have looked into the part numbers for 7730 igntion modules vs Fiero ignition modules before saying anything. because by looking at the schematics - the DIS module was just an outgrowth of the igntion module. and, with GM being super nice about consistancy....or - to lazy to redesign , assumed the the dist referance & EST would be the same. because that is the only feed from the ECM.


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #475, 01-25-2008 03:11 PM
      Don't DIS engines fire on the exhaust stroke too for emissions purposes? That's why there are 3 coil packs with 2 plugs on them. Is it 1+4, 2+5 and 3+6? That way when #4 fire on combustion stroke, #1 fires on exhaust stroke and vice versa...

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #476, 01-25-2008 03:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by lou_dias:

Don't DIS engines fire on the exhaust stroke too for emissions purposes? That's why there are 3 coil packs with 2 plugs on them. Is it 1+4, 2+5 and 3+6? That way when #4 fire on combustion stroke, #1 fires on exhaust stroke and vice versa...


not for emmision purposes - but, because its an easier design. it just happens to help emisions also. instead of having 1 coil for each cyl, there is one coil for each pair of opposing cyls. the spark plug wires are connected to each end of the one coil. so, when it fires the one coil, it sparks 2 wires. it is also easier on the coil. and keeps the plugs cleaner.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #477, 01-25-2008 03:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


yup - I was just assuming the actual signals were as consistant as everything else. but, I guess I should have looked into the part numbers for 7730 igntion modules vs Fiero ignition modules before saying anything. because by looking at the schematics - the DIS module was just an outgrowth of the igntion module. and, with GM being super nice about consistancy....or - to lazy to redesign , assumed the the dist referance & EST would be the same. because that is the only feed from the ECM.


The signals serve the same purpose, but as was stated above, the timing is different.


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #478, 01-25-2008 04:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
The signals serve the same purpose, but as was stated above, the timing is different.


while I believe Darth - I am still digging on my own to see what the actual difference is. From what I have seen on the MegaSquirt site, the is no difference. But - MegaSquirt is also designed to handle either also.

the timing is handled my the "module" in each. its the "adavnce" which comes from the ECM. on the white wire. that is the only thing that comes from the ECM. the timing advance.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #479, 01-25-2008 07:28 PM
      But the ECM modulates the coil signal relative to the reference pulses provided by the module...

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #480, 01-26-2008 12:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

But the ECM modulates the coil signal relative to the reference pulses provided by the module...


yes, and again - where I am just assuming compatibity between the 2 systems. the one coming from the pick-up coil, and the one coming from the crank trigger. both read in the ignition module. and, this is where I see the problem - the crank trigger has a 7th pulse - 10* off of TDC #1. I dunno if the dist referance is a raw signal of 7 pulses or a signal of 6 pulses created by the module. I guess just hooking up and oscilliscope to the white wire & the a 2nd pick-up on the purple/white wire would answer this instantly. but, after doing more looking around - that 7th pulse is the why the Fiero ECM wont work. looking at the megasquirt info some more - I see the ECM receives the 7th pulse - which means 2 things: 1> the Fiero ECM would be mighty confused by the 7th pulse 2> the DIS enabled ECM has a clue as to when TDC #1 is - unlike the Fiero ECM.

oh - another reason it wont work - them referance pulses on the Fiero are genarated by the pick-up coil - which twists with timing adjustments, while the crank trigger is 100% fixed.

anyways - luckily - swapping in the 7730 is way easy sofar anyways. the re-use of the Fiero EGR solenoid wires to carry the knock & fan controls means the additional wiring is super easy & accessable.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #481, 01-26-2008 02:25 PM
      The ECM doesn't get the 7th pulse. The 7th pulse is purely for the benefit of the DIS module so that it knows which coil to fire. The ECM only cares about one reference pulse per ignition event, which is what it gets from the pickup coil in the dizzy.

The reference angle, however, is different between the two systems.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #482, 01-26-2008 02:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

The ECM doesn't get the 7th pulse. The 7th pulse is purely for the benefit of the DIS module so that it knows which coil to fire. The ECM only cares about one reference pulse per ignition event, which is what it gets from the pickup coil in the dizzy.

The reference angle, however, is different between the two systems.


I was just going to add that; but Will beat me to it. The reference angle Will is talking about here is the angle in relation to TDC the sensor reads the pulses from the reluctor wheel. DIS is different than a Distributor; and the computer has to be programmed to know this.

As I also said earlier, the dwell (charge) time for the ignition coil(s) differs greatly between single-coil (distributor) and multi-coil (DIS) systems.

I don't think the Fiero ECM can be reprogrammed to work with DIS; but even if it could, why would you want to use it when the 7730 ECM is so much better? (ie: faster processing, more memory, more adjustable tables, greater diagnostic capability)

-ryan



Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #483, 01-26-2008 04:49 PM
      yup, the Fiero referance twists with the distributer, while the crank trigger is fixed
and, yes - the 7730 swap way to easy to NOT use it.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #484, 01-26-2008 10:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
As I also said earlier, the dwell (charge) time for the ignition coil(s) differs greatly between single-coil (distributor) and multi-coil (DIS) systems.


I thought that the DIS brick handled the dwell for the DIS coils, since dwell for them is greater than one spark interval, unlike the dizzy system. In the dizzy system, one signal from the ECM can control both dwell and spark timing (module charges coil when timing signal goes high, sparks when timing signal goes low). In the DIS, each coil is charging for multiple ignition events before required to deliver a spark, so one signal can't control both... hence I thought that the DIS module handled dwell. Is this not the case?


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #485, 01-27-2008 01:32 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


I thought that the DIS brick handled the dwell for the DIS coils, since dwell for them is greater than one spark interval, unlike the dizzy system. In the dizzy system, one signal from the ECM can control both dwell and spark timing (module charges coil when timing signal goes high, sparks when timing signal goes low). In the DIS, each coil is charging for multiple ignition events before required to deliver a spark, so one signal can't control both... hence I thought that the DIS module handled dwell. Is this not the case?


I didn't think spark dwell would have been handled by the computer either until I got into some of the programming used in OBD1.5 and OBD2 systems. There are quite a few tables in there for spark dwell time in these newer systems. I haven't found any in the code masks that are used in the 7730 ECM but they are in there for OBD-2 operating systems that use the same ignition module/coil pack (3100 & 3400). But then again the dwell time could also just be a fixed value in DIS-compatible code masks; something written directly into the operating system and not the calibration.


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #486, 01-27-2008 05:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
I thought that the DIS brick handled the dwell for the DIS coils, since dwell for them is greater than one spark interval, unlike the dizzy system. In the dizzy system, one signal from the ECM can control both dwell and spark timing (module charges coil when timing signal goes high, sparks when timing signal goes low). In the DIS, each coil is charging for multiple ignition events before required to deliver a spark, so one signal can't control both... hence I thought that the DIS module handled dwell. Is this not the case?


me too. but, the reason I thought that was because awhile, the Fiero store sold some "performance" ignition modules, and one of the changes they made in them was the dwell. and, being the DIS module & the Distributer igntion module do the same job, I expected the dwell to be controlled on the DIS module.


rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #487, 01-27-2008 05:12 PM
      Someone from the 60*V6 forum just replied to a question I had about the external crank trigger working with our 2.8's and he/she responded that it might work not due to our Fiero pulleys being like a RWD and different than a FWD setup?

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #488, 01-28-2008 09:22 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by rjblaze:

Someone from the 60*V6 forum just replied to a question I had about the external crank trigger working with our 2.8's and he/she responded that it might work not due to our Fiero pulleys being like a RWD and different than a FWD setup?


I guess that would depend on how they mount. The keyway on the crank is the same, and, I expect that is what is used for alignment. but, the actual pulleys are different, as is the timing cover.


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #489, 01-30-2008 11:21 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
Just use the twisted pair of wires as-is. Most of the time this is what I find on 3.1 DIS systems; no shield wire.

-ryan


any special rules for the twisted pair? I have 2 connectors, with tails, and just made a cable, about 3 foot, and twisted it up. are the solder connections gonna be OK? they dont "twist" very nicely. and, since I am using abandoned Fiero wires, they are of a thicker gauge than the tail wires on the connectors....


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #490, 01-30-2008 12:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


any special rules for the twisted pair? I have 2 connectors, with tails, and just made a cable, about 3 foot, and twisted it up. are the solder connections gonna be OK? they dont "twist" very nicely. and, since I am using abandoned Fiero wires, they are of a thicker gauge than the tail wires on the connectors....


What I usually do is stick one end of the pair of wires in a vice, and stick the other end into a cordless drill and tighten the chuck down. I then turn on the drill and allow the wires to twist nicely to the just before the point when they try curling up. After you remove the wiring from the drill/vise it may untwist some, but should still have a nice twist. If you don't twist your pair of wires well enough then they can be susceptible to EM interference from the secondary ignition system.

-ryan


JazzMan (jazzman@fierocentral.com) MSG #491, 01-30-2008 01:10 PM
      Does TunerCat allow full access to all the tables in the 7730, or just selected ones? I've had bad luck using software that was crippled in this area before.

Also, what are some good links to info on tuning the 7730? I've got an EPROM burner from Needham Micro already so don't mind fiddling around with my own chips.

JazzMan


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #492, 01-30-2008 01:51 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:

Does TunerCat allow full access to all the tables in the 7730, or just selected ones? I've had bad luck using software that was crippled in this area before.

Also, what are some good links to info on tuning the 7730? I've got an EPROM burner from Needham Micro already so don't mind fiddling around with my own chips.

JazzMan



ALL tuning software commercially available only gives you access to "selected" tables and constants. I haven't seen one tuning software program that gives you complete access to all tunable bits, constants, and tables used in any GM computer out of the box. Tunercat's software seems to give access to everything you need for tuning purposes; more so than other tuning software programs I have used. I think tunerpro does has some extra tables in their definition file that will allow you to change other things, but not all of it is "useful" for what you will need to do.

The thing I like about tunercat is you can buy their definition file editor program that allows you to add access to tables you want to tune (but you will need a commented disassembly of the code mask so you know memory addresses of the tables you want to add). Such disassemblies are freely available for download on the internet.


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #493, 01-30-2008 02:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
What I usually do is stick one end of the pair of wires in a vice, and stick the other end into a cordless drill and tighten the chuck down. I then turn on the drill and allow the wires to twist nicely to the just before the point when they try curling up. After you remove the wiring from the drill/vise it may untwist some, but should still have a nice twist. If you don't twist your pair of wires well enough then they can be susceptible to EM interference from the secondary ignition system.

-ryan


ok, good - was just worried that the splices & the different guage wires may be a problem, or even the length. I could go shorter, but that would leave it outside the main harness, and close to a header. it is gonna be bundled with both the VSS & the alternator wires, then across with the injector wires - all of which I expect are pretty dang noisy. maybe I'll wrap it in tin foil after the twists.....


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #494, 01-30-2008 03:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


ok, good - was just worried that the splices & the different guage wires may be a problem, or even the length. I could go shorter, but that would leave it outside the main harness, and close to a header. it is gonna be bundled with both the VSS & the alternator wires, then across with the injector wires - all of which I expect are pretty dang noisy. maybe I'll wrap it in tin foil after the twists.....


You shouldn't need to wrap it in foil or anything. Just make sure you get a good twist and keep it routed away from the spark plug wires.



rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #495, 02-04-2008 11:09 AM
      bump to keep alive

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #496, 02-04-2008 11:43 AM
      cold weather making it slow going - but - done with most my wiring - just removing wires from the harness now - like the A/C stuff.

but, one thing I was wondering: Darth: the A/C request goes to the ECM - is it possible to have an "alternate" program fro A/C on & A/C off to have something like a "performance" code & "MPG" code?


JazzMan (jazzman@fierocentral.com) MSG #497, 02-04-2008 01:04 PM
      Doesn't the A/C request function just allow the ECM to proactively bump the RPM for compressor load instead of having to see the RPMs drop and play catchup with the idle air controller?

JazzMan


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #498, 02-04-2008 01:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:

Doesn't the A/C request function just allow the ECM to proactively bump the RPM for compressor load instead of having to see the RPMs drop and play catchup with the idle air controller?

JazzMan


not sure what it does - but, I assume it does something, and am wondering how adjustable that something is.


Capt Fiero (captfiero@captfiero.com) MSG #499, 02-04-2008 01:49 PM
      If it is anything like the Caddy ECM (which it sounds very similar) The A/C on request does 3 things. Tells the Compressor to Engage, Bumps the base idle up, and turns the rad fan on. Even on the lowley stock Fiero ECM you can get the A/C on mode to increase the idle rpm. I had this function changed when I was in Vegas by a member of the Las Vegas Fiero club. So my 88GT 2.8 now idles at 1200rpms when the A/C is on. (blows colder and keeps the voltage higher)

I keep reading about this 7730 ECM swap and keep thinking to myself. A pushrod 3.4 is about the only engine mod I can do to my 88GT and keep it Looking stock, which in turn would let me use the factory Camaro sensors and such. Hmm. Well I will keep reading this thread and thinking.


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #500, 02-10-2008 11:24 AM
      Just out of curiosity, does the ECM pay attention to knock sensor input when in open-loop mode?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #501, 02-10-2008 02:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Just out of curiosity, does the ECM pay attention to knock sensor input when in open-loop mode?


Yes. But there is a constant in the programming that can be adjusted that tells the computer when to enable knock retard based on engine coolant temperature. (stock is typically 65 deg C)



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #502, 02-10-2008 04:27 PM
      Thanks for the info.

Daviero MSG #503, 02-15-2008 12:32 AM
      Any chance of having the drawing of the latest revision of the adaptor plate posted? I'd like to make a version of it for my Northstar which will run on the Ryan Hess version of the 7730. I'd like to not reinvent the wheel if I have a choice. You can see so much farther when you stand on the shoulders of giants!



Gwain (mjfinfla@gmail.com) MSG #504, 02-15-2008 10:45 AM
      Daviero:

Here is the final revision we produced the plates to:



We do, of course, have extras on the shelf if you'd like to purchase one!



Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #505, 02-15-2008 10:55 AM
      one thing I was wondering: Darth: the A/C request goes to the ECM - is it possible to have an "alternate" program fro A/C on & A/C off to have something like a "performance" code & "MPG" code?


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #506, 02-15-2008 07:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

one thing I was wondering: Darth: the A/C request goes to the ECM - is it possible to have an "alternate" program fro A/C on & A/C off to have something like a "performance" code & "MPG" code?


With the tuning software I have available to me there is currently no way I can set up an ECM in the way you are asking about. Basically what needs to be done is the code mask you want to use needs to be hacked to the OS level and then changes need to be made to the OS so the ECM will do what you are asking. To be honest I'm a novice when it comes to writing code in this way so I don't think I can be of much help here. But there are people out there who have been able to do what you ask with other pre-OBD-2 computers so I'm sure it's possible. It's just a matter of finding someone who knows how to do it and who is willing.

-ryan



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #507, 02-15-2008 11:43 PM
      With a dual image ROM and a bit of wiring, you can change between tunes at the flip of a switch.

ALLTRBO MSG #508, 02-16-2008 08:15 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

With a dual image ROM and a bit of wiring, you can change between tunes at the flip of a switch.

Where's that easy button?

http://www.moates.net/produ...25_41&products_id=80

http://www.moates.net/produ...25_41&products_id=87

or

http://www.moates.net/produ...25_41&products_id=47



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #509, 02-16-2008 02:37 PM
      http://www.moates.net/produ...25_36&products_id=33

Also recommend this be used with the EX Remote for remote switching ability: http://www.moates.net/produ...25_41&products_id=47

I was just going to add that I can make a multi-program chip for you which can be used in conjunction with the above moates.net hardware that will give you the ability to switch between multiple programs on-the-fly. The 7730 ECM uses a 27C256 sized chip program for most of the code masks that would be used in a Fiero application which means I could set your "thumbwheel" chip up with as many as 16 different programs.

-ryan


mswenson289 (mswenson289@yahoo.com) MSG #510, 02-17-2008 12:24 PM
      Any ideas or comments welcome. Hope this is the right place to post. I am replacing the 2.8 w/ camaro 3.4 93-95 intend to use DIS and 7730 ECM. Thought I would use the 3.4 lower intake manifold to eliminate the cold start injector and fan sensor. Now my concern the 2.8 lower intake has a fitting that the manual refers to as "Cold start valve air tube" running between the intake and the Throttle body. How is this used and will there be an impact by plugging the port on the TB.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #511, 02-17-2008 01:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mswenson289:

Any ideas or comments welcome. Hope this is the right place to post. I am replacing the 2.8 w/ camaro 3.4 93-95 intend to use DIS and 7730 ECM. Thought I would use the 3.4 lower intake manifold to eliminate the cold start injector and fan sensor. Now my concern the 2.8 lower intake has a fitting that the manual refers to as "Cold start valve air tube" running between the intake and the Throttle body. How is this used and will there be an impact by plugging the port on the TB.


The cold start injector isn't needed with the 7730 ECM. That air tube that runs from the stock Fiero 2.8 TB down to the stock lower intake as far as I know is meant to route air flow past the cold start injector (helps distribute cold start injector fuel to all cylinders). Well if you aren't going to be using the cold start injector then you shouldn't need to worry about this tube. Just plug it if you plan on using the 2.8 upper plenum and you should be fine. But since you are going to be using DIS have you considered just using the stock Camaro 3.4 upper plenum as well? You should be able to turn it around so the throttle body faces the transmission.


mswenson289 (mswenson289@yahoo.com) MSG #512, 02-17-2008 02:57 PM
      Thanks for the response. I wasn't sure on the tube I knew the injector is unused but was concerned that it still used the extra air. I have not seen a drawing (breakdown of the TB) to see how that routed air for cold start. No valve on it so you would have to assume it breaths all the time.
On the upper intake I missed a bolt on the fuel rail and damaged it(upper intake) , but also it interferes with the thermostat housing. I like the looks of the original intake and am running a 4T60 no high rev's here. The long runners allow for torque and that is what I was really desiring.


mswenson289 (mswenson289@yahoo.com) MSG #513, 02-17-2008 03:48 PM
      I just went to measure the port to make an aluminum plug and was wondering if this is the IAC port? the hole is in front of the throttle plate and looks like it is routed down past IAC valve and out that port, idid not remove the TB from the intake to see if or where the IAC was routed behind the plate. Does this make sense? Is it the IAC port is it still OK to plug?
Mike


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #514, 02-17-2008 04:14 PM
      That air tube running from the throttle body to the lower intake is the idle air tube. It's essential to the operation of the Fiero V6.

If you use the Camaro lower intake, then you'll also need to use the Camaro throttle body. (You may need to use the Camaro upper intake, as well. But I'm not sure.) That's because the idle air setup is different on the Camaro engine.

Edit to add: if you use the Fiero lower intake, you can plug the cold start and fan switch holes with 3/8" NPT pipe plugs. Most hardware stores should have these.

(edited to correct the pipe thread size)

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 02-18-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #515, 02-18-2008 04:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

That air tube running from the throttle body to the lower intake is the idle air tube.


Hmm, after you said that I had to go look it up in my 85 Fiero Service Manual. On page 6E3-78, Figuire-25 it shows the tube in question labeled as the "cold start valve air tube". A couple of pages earlier I found a description of the cold start injector; GM calls it the "cold start valve" in this service manual.



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #516, 02-18-2008 09:06 AM
      That tube does supply idle air to the motor with the stock throttle body as the IAC port exits at the lower rear of the throttle body. It's the only one I've run across that works like that. All the other throttle bodies I've seen have the IAC port exit just on the backside of the throttle plate.
Here is a pic of the tube:


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #517, 02-18-2008 09:18 AM
      yes, the IAC path is easy enough to relocate - just a control vacuum leak. it doesnt need to be that big - you see on the throttle body side - it under 1/4". but - I would suggest to NOT use a rubber vacuum line - as it may collapse & stall the motor.

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 02-18-2008).]

JazzMan (jazzman@fierocentral.com) MSG #518, 02-18-2008 01:46 PM
      The air tube IAC design was likely done that way in order to use the cold start injector, sort of merging the two functions. The IAC alone would work just fine metering the air back in just past the throttle body.

JazzMan


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #519, 02-18-2008 02:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

With a dual image ROM and a bit of wiring, you can change between tunes at the flip of a switch.


yes, was just thinking since the A/C request is already there, and in fact does change parameters - I was just hoping this would be a simple approach.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #520, 02-18-2008 04:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by JazzMan:

The air tube IAC design was likely done that way in order to use the cold start injector, sort of merging the two functions. The IAC alone would work just fine metering the air back in just past the throttle body.

JazzMan


I'm just going on what the service manual says about its function. You may very well be correct that this tube has to be present and hooked up in order for the OE Fiero 2.8 throttle body and IAC system to function; if so, I stand corrected on my previous statement. I haven't researched the inner workings of the stock 2.8 to the extent of knowing everything possible about this particular design. But assuming what you say is true, and someone wanted to use a later design lower intake manifold, they would also have to use the later style throttle body so the IAC would continue to function.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 02-18-2008).]

JazzMan (jazzman@fierocentral.com) MSG #521, 02-18-2008 06:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


I'm just going on what the service manual says about its function. You may very well be correct that this tube has to be present and hooked up in order for the OE Fiero 2.8 throttle body and IAC system to function; if so, I stand corrected on my previous statement. I haven't researched the inner workings of the stock 2.8 to the extent of knowing everything possible about this particular design. But assuming what you say is true, and someone wanted to use a later design lower intake manifold, they would also have to use the later style throttle body so the IAC would continue to function.



Yep, gotta have air flow to affect the idle. The IAC air passage in the manifold runs full length, and there are holes in each port to allow the air to enter the head. It's probably easiest to look at it as primarily a cold start fuel delivery system that they tacked the IAC function onto. The constant air flow also prevents fuel from lingering after the cold start injector is done.

JazzMan


bnevets27 MSG #522, 03-13-2008 05:28 PM
      I was wondering if anybody has fitted the external crank sensor to the stock 2.8? Or know if the one by TEC will fit?

Here is a thread about it at 60*V :
http://60degreev6.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38980

If the plate just needs to be resized or the key moved I could easily do that, as long as its just metal.

Pics of the external crank sensor from TEC:
http://wot-tech.com/shop/in...iewProd&productId=42

I bought the ECM and coil pack already and was excited to put the distributor less ignition in and then re-read and realized I couldn't. If I can get this fitted to the balancer, thats the last thing I'm missing correct? (minus the knock sensor and a burned chip)

If its just a plate with notches in the right place, and just a normal senor to pick up the position, I might be able to make it. Provided with the info on what degree the notches have to be at and what sensor to use.

[This message has been edited by bnevets27 (edited 03-13-2008).]

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #523, 03-14-2008 07:31 AM
      yes - that will work just fine.
if you figure out how to mount - there is another guy looking to do the exact same thing.
I will post a link to his thread, if I find it.


rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #524, 03-14-2008 10:57 PM
      I think this is the thread you are talking about....no revisions yet and still really no answers.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/089178.html


Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #525, 03-21-2008 09:28 AM
      need a clarification
D5 tan / blk est bypass move to BC7 must be disconnected to set base timing, see note1 below

what exactly does this mean?


also just wondering if anyones knows the colors of the wires in the c203 adapter that correspond to the terminals I am supposed to be using?


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #526, 03-21-2008 09:50 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Madess:
need a clarification
D5 tan / blk est bypass move to BC7 must be disconnected to set base timing, see note1 below

what exactly does this mean?


also just wondering if anyones knows the colors of the wires in the c203 adapter that correspond to the terminals I am supposed to be using?


the original Fiero ECM - the ALDL connector allows you to bypass the EST - the 7730 does not. so, instead - you break the connection between the ECM and the igntion module on the tan EST wire. easy way to do this instead of a connector, just mount a switch somewhere. hit the toggle to set the timing. or maybe a 1/8" mini jack, where inserting or removing the jack opens or closes (depending on taste) the EST line.


Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #527, 03-21-2008 11:09 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


the original Fiero ECM - the ALDL connector allows you to bypass the EST - the 7730 does not. so, instead - you break the connection between the ECM and the igntion module on the tan EST wire. easy way to do this instead of a connector, just mount a switch somewhere. hit the toggle to set the timing. or maybe a 1/8" mini jack, where inserting or removing the jack opens or closes (depending on taste) the EST line.


so if the timing is already set right on my car, just hook everything up and go, with a switch, then if for some reason I want to play with the timing, just turn the switch off, time it, and turn it back on... I get it.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #528, 03-21-2008 01:11 PM
      If you are going to put a switch or other, non-weather sealed connector on the EST bypass wire, make sure you do it inside the car. Otherwise corrosion could attack a non-weather sealed connection which could cause problems in the long term.

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #529, 03-21-2008 10:02 PM
      how do i install my ostrich onto my 7730 v6 memcal?
here is a picture of the components that i have am i missing somthing? do i need to remove any thing and do i need to soider anything? please help

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 03-21-2008).]

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #530, 03-21-2008 10:18 PM
      The Ostrich takes the place of the prom. The prom is the brown chip on the right side of the memcal in the picture. The rectangular black piece with the pins on bottom and holes on top (middle right of picture) is your quick connector used when you need to connect and disconnect your prom several times. Keeps from tearing up the memcal's prom socket. So, remove prom (note the little U on the right end), insert black rectangle chip adapter with U on the right (if it has one), then insert Ostrich connector (bottom right in picture) into quick connector with U on the right. The Ostrich is now doing the job of the prom. The other chips on the left of the memcal in the picture are the limp home mode stuff. Those stay put.

Anyone? Did I miss something?

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 03-21-2008).]

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #531, 03-21-2008 10:27 PM
      how do i remove the brown chip?

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #532, 03-21-2008 10:35 PM
      Small screw driver with care and patience. It's just pressed down onto the memcal, there is no solder.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #533, 03-22-2008 12:20 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

Small screw driver with care and patience. It's just pressed down onto the memcal, there is no solder.



No, it is soldered; at least every one is I have seen. You can either unsolder it to remove it, cut the legs off with a dremel tool, or get a mem-cal adapter like what is shown here: http://www.moates.net/produ...25_36&products_id=32


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #534, 03-22-2008 12:41 AM
      ok got the brown chip out, there might be some sodier it just looked like some corroision that needed to be cleaned off, the chip removed easy with some time, the problem now is the cable does not go all the way in due to the second board on the memcal and i cant tell whitch way the cable connects it does not have a U notch in it?

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 03-22-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #535, 03-22-2008 11:17 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

ok got the brown chip out, there might be some sodier it just looked like some corroision that needed to be cleaned off, the chip removed easy with some time, the problem now is the cable does not go all the way in due to the second board on the memcal and i cant tell whitch way the cable connects it does not have a U notch in it?



The ribbon cable coming from the adapter should have a red stripe on one of the ends. That needs to face away from the knock sensor interface circuit board on the mem-cal. If the circuit board is in the way of your socket, you can carefully push it away a little bit but not too much that you damage it. If you don't have enough room for the socket I suggest you order the G1 mem-cal adapter from moates.net.



Fino MSG #536, 03-22-2008 01:02 PM
      This is a very good topic I am going to look through all of it. I plan to do this myself. I have a 3.4L and just bought the ECM and a wiring harness. I will need the rest of the parts.

Ed



engine man (fieroa8@gmail.com) MSG #537, 03-22-2008 05:45 PM
      I am putting a 3.4 DOHC engine in my car and some say that this ECM will work some say it wont . I think it will if it will run the igntion system it should be able to run the rest of the engine it just might take some tinkering on the tuning to get the fuel and spark correct like any othe engine

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #538, 03-23-2008 10:01 AM
      Thanks Darth, that's why I asked for someone else to respond. I used the Moates G1 Memory adapter like you suggested. He did not have that in his picture.

EDIT: Here is what the Moates adapter with memcal looks like (top left), memcal by itself (top right), and prom by itself (bottom).


And Moates adapter with memcal installed in the ECM:

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 03-23-2008).]

merlot566jka (merlot566jka@yahoo.com) MSG #539, 03-23-2008 02:27 PM
      ^ thanks, i needed that! ive had the moats adaptor but darth just send me a new prom and i forgot how to connect the oem prom to the adaptor. wow perfect timing

Fino MSG #540, 03-25-2008 12:38 PM
      Just a bump

Ed


JazzMan (jazzman@fierocentral.com) MSG #541, 03-25-2008 01:55 PM
      Darth, you have a PM!

JazzMan


Longshots7 (jeffrey.reedy@us.army.mil) MSG #542, 03-28-2008 12:16 PM
      I've been watching this topic for awhile. I'm ready to try it but am having trouble finding the 7730. I've tried Ebay and emailing one of the folks that said they could get some here. Still no luck. Any ideas on where to get the neccessary parts?



Russ544 MSG #543, 03-28-2008 12:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Longshots7:

I've been watching this topic for awhile. I'm ready to try it but am having trouble finding the 7730. I've tried Ebay and emailing one of the folks that said they could get some here. Still no luck. Any ideas on where to get the neccessary parts?



http://motors.shop.ebay.com...QQ_nkwZ1227730Q20ecm


Longshots7 (jeffrey.reedy@us.army.mil) MSG #544, 03-28-2008 02:03 PM
      Thanks! That gets me started.

ambfiero MSG #545, 03-28-2008 07:54 PM
      bookmarking this

PaulJK MSG #546, 03-29-2008 10:49 PM
      Darth - (regarding this upgrade for a 3.4 pushrod or 2.8 stock engine) waaaay back you mentioned doing the DIS with this ECU upgrade. What parts are needed for the DIS - coil pack, module (under the coil pack). Distributor (?) - will it fit the 3.4 / 2.8 fiero engine ?

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 03-30-2008).]

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #547, 03-30-2008 05:09 PM
      instead of the g1 adapter i went with a socket boster.





ah progress


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #548, 03-30-2008 05:14 PM
      i dont think it matters what way the booster goes in

rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #549, 03-30-2008 10:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by PaulJK:

Darth - (regarding this upgrade for a 3.4 pushrod or 2.8 stock engine) waaaay back you mentioned doing the DIS with this ECU upgrade. What parts are needed for the DIS - coil pack, module (under the coil pack). Distributor (?) - will it fit the 3.4 / 2.8 fiero engine ?



I'll take a stab at this one: If you are using the 3.4 (or 3400) block, you will have a crank trigger wheel and sensor available to trigger the DIS system (coil packs, module). If you are using a stock 2.8 there is no available crank trigger wheel or sensor which would require an aftermarket unit (none are available as I know it). There is a company making a crank trigger wheel and sensor, but only can be used with the FWD lower damper/pulley. I am currently in contact with this manufacturer to see if one can be made for our stock 2.8 setup (which is like a RWD damper and separate pulley). My current thought is to machine the protruding portion of our damper (where the pulley mounts) flat with the face of the damper ring and sandwich this guys trigger wheel between the damper and pulley. I know our damper is 6 3/8" in diameter, I just don't know the diameter of the manufacturer's trigger wheel yet.


PaulJK MSG #550, 03-31-2008 02:39 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

.... if you are swapping in a newer 3.1 or 3.4 that has provisions for the DIS ignition system, I would recommend using the DIS as well.



I just read this in the first post on page 1. So it seems you need to have a 3.4 that already has provisions for DIS. So ryan, nevermind my DIS question (I guess). I'd still like to get your input about the digital cruise control - on a STOCK 3.4 pushrod / 2.8 V6, can you use the digital cruise control with the ECU upgrade or do you still need to add a speedometer interface like the ones from Nordskog or Dakota Digital ?


http://store.summitracing.c...850+115&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.c...700+115&autoview=sku


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #551, 03-31-2008 03:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by PaulJK:


I just read this in the first post on page 1. So it seems you need to have a 3.4 that already has provisions for DIS. So ryan, nevermind my DIS question (I guess). I'd still like to get your input about the digital cruise control - on a STOCK 3.4 pushrod / 2.8 V6, can you use the digital cruise control with the ECU upgrade or do you still need to add a speedometer interface like the ones from Nordskog or Dakota Digital ?


http://store.summitracing.c...850+115&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.c...700+115&autoview=sku


Yes the Dakota Digital SGI-5 should interface with the stock Fiero speed sensor and output a signal the "digital" cruise control can use. Of course if you swapped in a 7730 ECM, then you could just use it's output.

But before you buy an aftermarket module, you might want to try something. I was looking at the wiring diagrams for the 88 Fiero and found there was a different signal that went to the proposed electro-hydro power steering module. This signal came out of terminal M of the stock Fiero speedometer connector. It is possible that this may be a 4000ppm signal which you could use for the "digital" cruise control. Now in a stock Fiero there probably will be no such wire or terminal hooked up to this position in the speedo's connector (unless you were one of the rare lucky persons to get ahold of a power-steering equipped Fiero), so if you want to try this output you will have to obtain the correct terminal that will insert into this connector; you MIGHT be able to reuse one of the terminals out of the stock Fiero cruise control module connector. Otherwise, you will need to find another Fiero speedo connector and pull a wiring terminal out of that one. But I think trying this would be worth a shot vs. buying an aftermarket module.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 03-31-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #552, 03-31-2008 05:06 PM
      Here is a wiring diagram from a 1988 Fiero that shows the proposed electo-power steering VSS wire. This wire might be a 4000ppm signal that can be used with the "digital" cruise control...

FieroVSS.pdf

If that doesn't work, and you don't want to buy the aftermarket SGI-5 interface, you should be able to use a factory GM speedo buffer box from a 80's GM car. These boxes look like this:



The wiring diagrams for this buffer box can be downloaded here: http://www.gmtuners.com/files/4-OUT_BUFFER.pdf

This yellow "4-out" buffer box was used in many mid-late 80's GM cars such as the Pontiac Firebird, Pontiac Grand Am, Chevy Cavalier, etc; and can usually be found piggy-backing the ECM.

But before getting one of these buffer boxes I encourage someone to try hooking up to that "M" terminal coming off the stock Fiero speedometer to see if that works.

-ryan

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 05-16-2008).]

Fino MSG #553, 03-31-2008 07:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

Here is a wiring diagram from a 1988 Fiero that shows the proposed electo-power steering VSS wire. This wire might be a 4000ppm signal that can be used with the "digital" cruise control...

If that doesn't work, and you don't want to buy the aftermarket SGI-5 interface, you should be able to use a factory GM speedo buffer box from a 80's GM car. These boxes look like this:

The wiring diagrams for this buffer box can be downloaded here: VSSbufferWIRING.jpg

This yellow "4-out" buffer box was used in many mid-late 80's GM cars such as the Pontiac Firebird, Pontiac Grand Am, Chevy Cavalier, etc; and can usually be found piggy-backing the ECM.

But before getting one of these buffer boxes I encourage someone to try hooking up to that "M" terminal coming off the stock Fiero speedometer to see if that works.

-ryan



It does not look like there any wires going to those three terminals by the only photo I have now.



The pins we are using now are P R S T U and the 3 before that are nothing.

Ed
EDIT: One of those four holes is the 4K signal and if you have an oscilloscope or just a COMPUTER SAFE test light the wire could be found by testing each wire while you turn the wheels, the one that blinks on and off will be the 4K signal. I don't think this is the best way you still have to get the wire out to the engine compartment.
The speed buffer box could be used in the engine compartment and get all connections needed there.

[This message has been edited by Fino (edited 03-31-2008).]

Fino MSG #554, 03-31-2008 07:27 PM
      Here is another photo of the other side.



Ed

EDIT:
The first photo is an 85 MPH speedo and the second is a 120 MPH speedo. Look at the extra circuit on the 120 MPH that is not scratched it does not go up to the 4 holes but I wonder what it is. You might think a ground but that screw goes into plastic.
??????????

[This message has been edited by Fino (edited 03-31-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #555, 03-31-2008 07:33 PM
     

Remember, GM usually skips letters like "I" and "O" in their wiring terminal ID's so they aren't confused with the numbers "0" and "1". Looks like terminal M is hooked up to the circuit board and isn't used in a stock Fiero application minus pwr steering (it lacks the marks you can see made on other terminals by connector being plugged in).

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 03-31-2008).]

Fino MSG #556, 03-31-2008 07:43 PM
      Might be



My car does not have a computer in it now or I would test it to see if the test light to ground flashes. This would be very easy for anyone to do by using a computer safe testlight and probe the terminal. It is very easy to get to.

Ed
EDIT:
Note that "P" and "R" connect together. That would be low VSS and Ground.

[This message has been edited by Fino (edited 03-31-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #557, 03-31-2008 07:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fino:

Might be


ED



Bet it is. Looking closer at the wiring diagrams for the stock Fiero speedo, you can see the 2000ppm VSS output from the speedo circuit board hooks up a to "divided by 2" logic circuit. The output terminal for the power steering module hooks up to the "divided by 1" logic circuit, which would stand to reason this is a 4000ppm output. I think it's worth a try.

-ryan


Fino MSG #558, 03-31-2008 07:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
Bet it is. Looking closer at the wiring diagrams for the stock Fiero speedo, you can see the 2000ppm VSS output from the speedo circuit board hooks up a to "divided by 2" logic circuit. The output terminal for the power steering module hooks up to the "divided by 1" logic circuit, which would stand to reason this is a 4000ppm output. I think it's worth a try.

-ryan




Ed

EDIT: Remember the speedo has to be a 120 MPH speedo the 85 does not have it. Now on later cars will it be there? I don't know what year my 85 MPH speedo was.

[This message has been edited by Fino (edited 03-31-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #559, 03-31-2008 09:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fino:




Ed

EDIT: Remember the speedo has to be a 120 MPH speedo the 85 does not have it. Now on later cars will it be there? I don't know what year my 85 MPH speedo was.




I've got a 1985 Fiero GT cluster sitting here with the 85 MPH speedo and it does NOT have the completed circuit board connection to terminal "M". Don't have any "newer" non-GT speedos here so I can't say whether or not term M is hooked up on those.


PaulJK MSG #560, 04-01-2008 12:37 AM
     

This is a pic from Jon. I think terminal M was active on the '88 models and terminal N was active on some of the earlier years. In this pic, looks like M isn't connected to anything but N is.

I was gonna test these terminals tonight, but i have 3 buffer boards and NONE of them have any circuits connected to K, L, M or N .

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 04-01-2008).]

PaulJK MSG #561, 04-01-2008 03:24 AM
      {got it}

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 04-02-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #562, 04-01-2008 01:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by PaulJK:



This is a pic from Jon. I think terminal M was active on the '88 models and terminal N was active on some of the earlier years. In this pic, looks like M isn't connected to anything but N is.

I was gonna test these terminals tonight, but i have 3 buffer boards and NONE of them have any circuits connected to K, L, M or N .



LOL I guess I forgot about the letter "N"! Sorry it was a long day yesterday. Oh well, if you do find a circuit board trace going to a terminal that doesn't appear to be used I would give it a try anyway.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #563, 04-01-2008 03:48 PM
      Please reference this thread for continued discussion about the "digital" cruise control: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/090358.html

PaulJK MSG #564, 04-01-2008 07:29 PM
      ..

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 04-02-2008).]

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #565, 04-01-2008 11:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by PaulJK: Anything I missed ?

The ECM tray specifically needs to be from a 1987-88 Fiero 4cyl. Also, remember to disable or delete the cold start injector system.

Edit to add: you will need a knock sensor, unless you have it disabled in the programming.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 04-01-2008).]

PaulJK MSG #566, 04-02-2008 05:13 AM
      Blacktree Thank you. How do I delete the cold start injection system exactly ?

I'm not using the fan switch now, so i can just unplug the connection (?) I'd probably remove the sensor and plug the hole anyway.

Right now, the car seems to start and idle fine, but the idle jumps between 900 and 1200 after it warms up and sometimes the car starts to surge and buck. Is this an IAC issue ? Maybe Throttle POsition Sensor ?

I wanna re-read about where you installed the knock sensor .... I saw where ryan said it was needed, but did not see where it could be deleted in the programming. Must be better to have it (?)

How did your stalling problem turn out ?

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 04-02-2008).]

PaulJK MSG #567, 04-02-2008 05:37 AM
      {got it}

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 04-02-2008).]

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #568, 04-02-2008 10:44 AM
      When I deleted the cold start injection system, I replaced the thermal switch (in the intake manifold) with a pipe plug. And I replaced the tube fitting in the fuel rail with a short (stainless steel) bolt. I couldn't think of an easy, effective way to plug the injector hole in the intake manifold, so I just left the injector in there. You can also delete the wiring, if you want. It's just dead weight, anyway.

The 7730 ECM takes over the function of the fan switch. So you can remove it, and plug the hole. You can trace the wire back to a splice in the harness, and snip it there. The fan switch plug fits the knock sensor. So you can re-use it.

Speaking of knock sensors, mine is located on the trunk-side of the engine block, almost exactly in the center of the block. There's a coolant plug there that has the same size threads. The knock sensor replaces that coolant plug.

By the way, the fan switch and cold start switch both use 3/8" NPT pipe threads.

My stalling issue was caused by a faulty throttle body. The throttle plate sometimes didn't fully close at idle. The inconsistent readings from the TPS were confusing the ECM. After adjusting the idle stop screw, the stalling ceased.

I should also mention that the 7730 ECM seems to be more sensitive to sensor input than the old Fiero ECM. It's very important to have all your sensors in perfect operating condition. When I first installed the 7730 ECM, I had a problem with the engine bucking and hesitating during acceleration. After some investigation with an OBD-1 scanner, I found that my MAT sensor was reading high. As a result, the engine wasn't getting enough fuel during acceleration. Replacing the sensor fixed that problem.


mswenson289 (mswenson289@yahoo.com) MSG #569, 04-02-2008 01:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

When I deleted the cold start injection system, I replaced the thermal switch (in the intake manifold) with a pipe plug. And I replaced the tube fitting in the fuel rail with a short (stainless steel) bolt. I couldn't think of an easy, effective way to plug the injector hole in the intake manifold, so I just left the injector in there. You can also delete the wiring, if you want. It's just dead weight, anyway.

The 7730 ECM takes over the function of the fan switch. So you can remove it, and plug the hole. You can trace the wire back to a splice in the harness, and snip it there. The fan switch plug fits the knock sensor. So you can re-use it.

Speaking of knock sensors, mine is located on the trunk-side of the engine block, almost exactly in the center of the block. There's a coolant plug there that has the same size threads. The knock sensor replaces that coolant plug.

By the way, the fan switch and cold start switch both use 3/8" NPT pipe threads.

My stalling issue was caused by a faulty throttle body. The throttle plate sometimes didn't fully close at idle. The inconsistent readings from the TPS were confusing the ECM. After adjusting the idle stop screw, the stalling ceased.

I should also mention that the 7730 ECM seems to be more sensitive to sensor input than the old Fiero ECM. It's very important to have all your sensors in perfect operating condition. When I first installed the 7730 ECM, I had a problem with the engine bucking and hesitating during acceleration. After some investigation with an OBD-1 scanner, I found that my MAT sensor was reading high. As a result, the engine wasn't getting enough fuel during acceleration. Replacing the sensor fixed that problem.


I had a hard time finding a short 12mm x 1.25 bolt to fill the fuel rail were I removed the cold start from and end up using a 12mm oil drail plug from Orchelins. Use a cooper washer with it as well. On plugging the CSI on the intake I used a 7/8" shallow freeze plug w/ a little RTV.
Mike


PaulJK MSG #570, 04-03-2008 10:36 PM
      Sounds good. Instead of changing all the hardware right off the bat, is it possible to just disconnect the wiring to the cold start injection system and leave the hardware in place to test the ECU upgarde installation ? Will leaving the dis-connected hardware in place hurt anything ?

Does the knock sensor come with a connector to splice into the harness ?


Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #571, 04-03-2008 11:11 PM
      Yes, I did this very thing. Just left everything in place plugging the holes. I did verify the CSI did not leak under pressure. I also disconnected the wires and left them hanging. Not really needed as the other end of the wires are not connected to the ECM anymore.

The knock sensor uses the same type connector as the old fan switch on the intake. Since you will not be using the fan switch anymore just reuse the connector on the knock sensor. You will need to splice a new wire to run to the ECM for the knock sensor circuit.


PaulJK MSG #572, 04-04-2008 12:17 AM
      thank you - i'm getting braver about this

Fino MSG #573, 04-04-2008 06:52 AM
      I have a question. Remove the fan switch cut the wire out of the harness and plug the hole?

I read the instructions to be .....move the D8 (egr diag sw, pin C at egr) to GE8 and then cut the wire FROM the fan sw and connect it to the old egr at pin C. Now the fan sw goes to GE8.
Is this an option to use this if you don't want to have the ECM control this circuit?

Also I have not installed my knock sensor yet but I thought the knock sensor went above the oil filter. Is that only true for the 3.4 block and the 2.8 does not have this boss?

What is right?

Ed

[This message has been edited by Fino (edited 04-04-2008).]

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #574, 04-04-2008 09:58 AM
      I'm kind of confused as to what you are asking. You can remove the fan switch and plug the hole, yes. Now you have 2 options: Run a digital EGR or none at all. The 7730 is not compatible with the Fiero 2-wire analog EGR solenoid. It needs a 4-wire digital EGR. On mine I wanted to run the digital EGR so I left my stock EGR wiring alone. I cut the fan switch wire a couple of inches above the fan switch connector, spliced a new wire to the wire from the C500 end of the fan switch wire, then ran that wire to the cooling fan control pin on the ECM (YE8 on my 7730). If you wanted a cleaner install then find the cooling fan wire where it comes through the cabin from the front fan relay and splice it there. It is just a ground wire anyways as that is what the fan switch does, goes to ground when the temp goes above it's set threshold.

I believe Darth's instructions are just a nice way to reuse/repurpose the Fiero's original EGR wires for a nice clean install. My method leaves an extra wire running through the engine compartment that you need to deal with. As it stands now, I had Darth disable the EGR so I don't get a Check Engine Light.

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 04-04-2008).]

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #575, 04-04-2008 10:02 AM
      On your 2nd question, here is a picture of the stock 2.8L block, rear side as mounted in the Fiero. There is a plug in the middle of the water jacket that can be removed for the knock sensor:



Fino MSG #576, 04-04-2008 10:13 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

I'm kind of confused as to what you are asking. You can remove the fan switch and plug the hole, yes. Now you have 2 options: Run a digital EGR or none at all. The 7730 is not compatible with the Fiero 2-wire analog EGR solenoid. It needs a 4-wire digital EGR. On mine I wanted to run the digital EGR so I left my stock EGR wiring alone. I cut the fan switch wire a couple of inches above the fan switch connector, spliced a new wire to the wire from the C500 end of the fan switch wire, then ran that wire to the cooling fan control pin on the ECM (YE8 on my 7730). If you wanted a cleaner install then find the cooling fan wire where it comes through the cabin from the front fan relay and splice it there. It is just a ground wire anyways as that is what the fan switch does, goes to ground when the temp goes above it's set threshold.

I believe Darth's instructions are just a nice way to reuse/repurpose the Fiero's original EGR wires for a nice clean install. My method leaves an extra wire running through the engine compartment that you need to deal with. As it stands now, I had Darth disable the EGR so I don't get a Check Engine Light.



Ok I looked at the Fiero wiring digram and it makes more sense now. GE8 is the output of the computer to control the fan relay (I was thinking GE8 was an imput looking for the sensor) that one is OK now. The knock senser in the Beretta book shows it to be on the right side front. Got that now.

I am all better now. I should be done shortly now.
Thank you
Ed

EDIT: I was typing while you were posting

[This message has been edited by Fino (edited 04-04-2008).]

Fino MSG #577, 04-04-2008 10:29 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

On your 2nd question, here is a picture of the stock 2.8L block, rear side as mounted in the Fiero. There is a plug in the middle of the water jacket that can be removed for the knock sensor:



Thanks Hudini

I got this out of the Beretta book because I am using the 1991 Beretta computer and need the knock sensor for that engine. I do have the 3.4 in my car and this boss is on my car.


Ed


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #578, 04-04-2008 10:30 AM
      Here's a photo of the knock sensor installed:



[edit to add] Notice that my engine has the boss for the knock sensor like in the Beretta photo, but I didn't use it because it would interfere with my headers.

Below is a photo of the pipe plugs in the intake manifold, where the cold start switch and fan switch used to be.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 04-04-2008).]

Fino MSG #579, 04-04-2008 11:34 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Here's a photo of the knock sensor installed:


[edit to add] Notice that my engine has the boss for the knock sensor like in the Beretta photo, but I didn't use it because it would interfere with my headers.

Below is a photo of the pipe plugs in the intake manifold, where the cold start switch and fan switch used to be.




That looks great a lot cleaner.
I got the knock sensor installed and wanted to make sure the wire did not pull loose so I wraped it around the exhaust manufold three times for safety. Don't want that to come disconnected.

Ed


PaulJK MSG #580, 04-06-2008 02:23 AM
      Ryan - is the knock sensor absolutely needed or will the car run OK if the knock sensor is simply deleted in the ECU programming ?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #581, 04-06-2008 12:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by PaulJK:

Ryan - is the knock sensor absolutely needed or will the car run OK if the knock sensor is simply deleted in the ECU programming ?


On a stock Fiero 2.8 engine, no; the knock sensor is not absolutely needed -- but if you don't install it the chip will have to be reprogrammed as such.

If you are running a modded 2.8 or different engine, then yes you should be using a knock sensor. The reason why it isn't critical when you are using a stock 2.8 is because that engine has low enough compression that it's hard to get it to detonate anyway and besides that we can transfer the stock timing tables from the stock 2.8 programming over to the 7730 ECM.



PaulJK MSG #582, 04-07-2008 01:07 AM
      Thank you. Sounds like a 3.4 pushrod (or any other kind) with enlarged intakes, exhaust and throttle body should probably have a knock sensor ...

PaulJK MSG #583, 04-07-2008 06:30 PM
      Also wondering - the 5 speed trans (isuzu and getrag) have a lower final gear ratio than the 4 speed automatic (?). Therefore they should get even better gas mileage in "highway mode driving" than the 4 speedo auto did with this ECU upgrade (?)

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #584, 04-07-2008 08:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by PaulJK:

Also wondering - the 5 speed trans (isuzu and getrag) have a lower final gear ratio than the 4 speed automatic (?). Therefore they should get even better gas mileage in "highway mode driving" than the 4 speedo auto did with this ECU upgrade (?)


Not exactly. Your typical 440T4 / 4T60 came with a 2.84, 3.06, or 3.33 final drive; overdrive ratio for this trans is ~0.70:1. The only manual trannys that had a similar final drive would be the econo 4-speed munice (84 only?) which had the 3.32, and the 5-speed isuzu used on the 4cyl engines which had a 3.35 final drive.

The 5-speed getrags had a 3.61 final drive and the 4-speed muncies that came with the V6 had a 3.65 final drive ratio.



TiredGXP MSG #585, 04-08-2008 12:34 AM
      Ryan:

Is the chip in the 7730 an EPROM, or an EEPROM?

TIA


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #586, 04-08-2008 01:41 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by TiredGXP:

Ryan:

Is the chip in the 7730 an EPROM, or an EEPROM?

TIA


Pretty much all GM computers that have removable chips use EPROMs - Electronically Programmable Read-Only Memory. These types of chips need to be erased with a UV lamp before they can be reprogrammed. EEPROMs are basically the same thing as flash-memory chips; they get erased electronically.


Fino MSG #587, 04-08-2008 09:27 AM
      I have my 7730 installed and the digital cruise and the engine started up first time. I have only driven it for about two miles so I cannot tell if there any problems.

Thanks Ryan
Ed


TiredGXP MSG #588, 04-08-2008 09:31 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


Pretty much all GM computers that have removable chips use EPROMs - Electronically Programmable Read-Only Memory. These types of chips need to be erased with a UV lamp before they can be reprogrammed. EEPROMs are basically the same thing as flash-memory chips; they get erased electronically.


Thaks Ryan.

I have another thread going about aftermarket ECU's, but I guess what I'm really after is a DIY tuning solution. I currently use HPT for the GP, but since it won't work on a OBDI computer and HPT doesn't support these older calibrations, I'll need new tuning software/hardware.

After having read through this thread, it sounds like using the 7730 may be the way to go since certain calibrations are compatible with distributor ignitions and it will support a knock sensor. Just need to figure out what software to use. I'm looking through TunerProRT (not quite as user friendly as HPT and will require me to dust off some assembler and hex knowledge that I haven't used for 25 years) and hardware requirements for data logging, chip emulation, and chip burning.

Thanks for posting the links to TunerPro and Moates.

Cheers


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #589, 04-08-2008 05:04 PM
      ok so what MAP sensor do i need to get for running 12psi?
what car do i need to steal it from lol.
i think the 3800sc has a good one but what gen and what car?


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #590, 04-08-2008 06:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

ok so what MAP sensor do i need to get for running 12psi?
what car do i need to steal it from lol.
i think the 3800sc has a good one but what gen and what car?


2-bar is all you need to accurately read up to 15psi of boost. The 1996-up 3800 Series 2 SC engines all had a 2-bar MAP sensor.



PaulJK MSG #591, 04-11-2008 09:34 PM
      ryan, pm 2u

[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 04-11-2008).]

PaulJK MSG #592, 04-12-2008 10:48 AM
      I just wanted to put in a good word for marc at TRU Mension Mfg. If this adapter works anywhere near as good as it looks, ohhh boy The copper color in the pics is just a reflection of an overhead light.
By the way, I'm planning to use the stock fiero gasket on the flange, adapter plate on top of it, digital EGR gasket onto the adapter, then the digital EGR. Seem OK ?







[This message has been edited by PaulJK (edited 04-12-2008).]

Fino MSG #593, 04-13-2008 03:53 PM
      I have had a chance to drive my car now after installing the 7730 computer. The driveability of the car is like a NEW car. Well worth the install of the computer. I have the EVAP, digital EGR and knock sensor installed.

Thanks Ryan
Ed



Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #594, 04-25-2008 10:39 AM
      finally getting back to work on my 7730 swap. almost there. now - ran into a Q: the speedo.
the re-wiring instructions have me splicing the speedo feed, so the ECM can piggy back off it.
now, if I wanted the speedo feed to come from the ECM - there is only mention of switching 1 line. what about the 2nd? does the "low" remain? is it like a ground?

and, will this allow me to make speedo adjustments for tire size?


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #595, 04-25-2008 11:00 AM
      I asked the same question on Page 8. Darth gave a detailed answer.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #596, 04-25-2008 11:21 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

finally getting back to work on my 7730 swap. almost there. now - ran into a Q: the speedo.
the re-wiring instructions have me splicing the speedo feed, so the ECM can piggy back off it.
now, if I wanted the speedo feed to come from the ECM - there is only mention of switching 1 line. what about the 2nd? does the "low" remain? is it like a ground?

and, will this allow me to make speedo adjustments for tire size?


The low (purple) VSS wire -which is a ground- coming from the Fiero speedo won't be used if you are running the VSS wiring thru the 7730 ECM. All you will be using is the "hi" (yellow) VSS wire coming from the Fiero's speedo which hooks to the speedo conversion circuit then connects to the 4000ppm output comimg from the 7730 ECM. I don't know how much adjustment the 7730 ECM allows for speedo calibration because I didn't need to get into that in the conversion I did.


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #597, 05-01-2008 08:59 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
The low (purple) VSS wire -which is a ground- coming from the Fiero speedo won't be used if you are running the VSS wiring thru the 7730 ECM. All you will be using is the "hi" (yellow) VSS wire coming from the Fiero's speedo which hooks to the speedo conversion circuit then connects to the 4000ppm output comimg from the 7730 ECM. I don't know how much adjustment the 7730 ECM allows for speedo calibration because I didn't need to get into that in the conversion I did.


can ya re-explain this? sorry - when I look at the wiring & the schematics/pinouts - its not falling into place....

and, is there a circuit I need to add to this thing? I saw on page 3? a small circuit (basicly, a filter) which is needed to drive the speedo from the 7730?

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 05-01-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #598, 05-02-2008 12:57 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


can ya re-explain this? sorry - when I look at the wiring & the schematics/pinouts - its not falling into place....

and, is there a circuit I need to add to this thing? I saw on page 3? a small circuit (basicly, a filter) which is needed to drive the speedo from the 7730?



The Fiero speedometer head contains the main VSS buffer circuit used in all stock Fieros. This means the Fiero speedo interfaces directly with the speed sensor (VSS). So it has to supply a ground to the sensor (purple wire) and it reads the return signal from the sensor (via the yellow wire). When using a 7730 ECM, you no longer need to have the Fiero speedo send that ground signal to the speed sensor because the 7730 ECM will do that for you (therefore you don't need to hook up the purple wire coming from the speedo to anything). All you need is to hook the 7730 ECM up to the speed sensor as I direct you to do in my wiring instructions. Then the 7730 ECM will output a 4000 pulse per mile signal that you can use for the digital cruise control and the Fiero speedometer. In order for the Fiero speedometer to understand this output from the 7730 ECM, you need to build that "fiero speedo conversion" circuit I have posted on my website. The speedo conversion circuit connects to the 4000 ppm output from the 7730 ECM, the yellow speed sensor wire going to the Fiero speedometer, and a 12v + (hot in run) power source.

-ryan


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #599, 05-02-2008 08:17 AM
      thanks - makes alot more sense now




mswenson289 (mswenson289@yahoo.com) MSG #600, 05-05-2008 12:55 PM
      Does anyone that has done this conversion used a scan tool software with it? I thought I had read in this post that you could use FreeScan. I am trying to use it with my 3.4(DIS)new build. Unable to start engine yet. Software (selected 3.1 engine)on the sensor scan page has a line that is called crank postions =0 is this saying I am not getting feedback from my crankcase sensor? Is there any other software to use?
Mike

P.S. I think I may have flooded it and is the cause for it not starting will know more tomorrow. I have spark, fuel at the shrader valve (psi? will check as well tomorrow) and i have a pulse at the injector connector
Just would like to understand the software a little better.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #601, 05-05-2008 01:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mswenson289:

Does anyone that has done this conversion used a scan tool software with it? I thought I had read in this post that you could use FreeScan. I am trying to use it with my 3.4(DIS)new build. Unable to start engine yet. Software (selected 3.1 engine)on the sensor scan page has a line that is called crank postions =0 is this saying I am not getting feedback from my crankcase sensor? Is there any other software to use?
Mike

P.S. I think I may have flooded it and is the cause for it not starting will know more tomorrow. I have spark, fuel at the shrader valve (psi? will check as well tomorrow) and i have a pulse at the injector connector
Just would like to understand the software a little better.


What interface cable are you using? The 7730 ECM communicates using 8192 baud. If you bought an interface cable for the stock Fiero ECM, it might be one of those versions that only works with 160 baud communications; and that will NOT work with the 7730 ECM. www.aldlcable.com sells an interface cable that will work with the 7730 ECM or you can build your own using instructions I have posted on my website here: http://dtcc.cz28.com/eprom/DIY.htm

FreeScan should work fine with the 7730 ECM. Make sure it is configured to read a "GM410B" vehicle. If that doesn't work, try "GM 1992 Pontiac 3.2" config. If you can't get FreeScan to work, try TunerPro RT's scanner. This tuning software suite is quite inexpensive to buy but does come with a built-in scanner. You can get TunerPro RT here: http://tunerpro.markmansur.com/

-ryan


mswenson289 (mswenson289@yahoo.com) MSG #602, 05-05-2008 01:30 PM
      I am using one custom built by Dodgerunner that operates on the faster baud rate. I know it is working, When In turn on the key I get a status update with header info and coolant temp, map, O2, all update. But cranksensors =0 even when cranking the engine no rpm indicator either might be too slow to record.

Mike


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #603, 05-05-2008 01:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mswenson289:

I am using one custom built by Dodgerunner that operates on the faster baud rate. I know it is working, When In turn on the key I get a status update with header info and coolant temp, map, O2, all update. But cranksensors =0 even when cranking the engine no rpm indicator either might be too slow to record.

Mike


You may not get a valid RPM signal on the scanner just by cranking the engine. I have seen this occur before (don't know if that is what is going on in your case). But when the engine starts and runs, then you should see valid RPM data.

-ryan



mswenson289 (mswenson289@yahoo.com) MSG #604, 05-05-2008 02:33 PM
      Kinda what i assumed,
Thanks for your quick responses
Mike


Fino MSG #605, 05-05-2008 07:07 PM
      I am using the Auto X Ray from Advanced Auto for $172.99 it is just easer. Set for a 91 Beretta.

http://www.partsamerica.com...10&CategoryCode=3389


Auto X-Ray GM OBD-l Scanner With Cable: Scans 1982-1995 GM 12 Pin ALDL Vehicles; Computer Safe - WILL NOT Accidentally Deploy Airbags, Change Transmission Gears, Affect ABS Brake Performance, or Fire Injectors & Ignition Systems.
Part Number: 10110

Ed


Synthesis (synssins@gmail.com) MSG #606, 05-15-2008 10:42 PM
      TTT

I have 3 of these 7730 ECMs WITH Memcals and connectors. Asking 50 each + shipping.

These are salvage yard pulls from V6 cars. All cars had damaged engines/transmissions or body damage consistent with wrecks.

Need these gone ASAP.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #607, 05-16-2008 02:45 AM
      I now have wiring instructions available for wiring up the 7730 ECM -AND- DIS (distributorless ignition system) to the Fiero 2.8 wiring harness. You can download them here: http://www.gmtuners.com/fil...o_V6_to_7730_DIS.pdf

You can download the 7730 wiring instructions for distributor applications here (so you don't have to go back to earlier pages in this thread to find the link): http://www.gmtuners.com/files/Fiero2.8_to_7730.pdf

-ryan

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 05-16-2008).]

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #608, 05-16-2008 08:23 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
I now have wiring instructions available for wiring up the 7730 ECM -AND- DIS (distributorless ignition system) to the Fiero 2.8 wiring harness. You can download them here: http://www.gmtuners.com/fil...o_V6_to_7730_DIS.pdf

You can download the 7730 wiring instructions for distributor applications here (so you don't have to go back to earlier pages in this thread to find the link): http://www.gmtuners.com/files/Fiero2.8_to_7730.pdf

-ryan



awesome - thanks!
I will go and look, and dbl check my work - I am wrapping up my wiring harness right now, and getting ready to re-install the cradle. also fixed my auto 2 manual swap wiring while I was at it.

anyways - the Q:
is there a way to know what "codemask" my ECM has? (not even sure what "codemask" is...)


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #609, 05-16-2008 09:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


awesome - thanks!
I will go and look, and dbl check my work - I am wrapping up my wiring harness right now, and getting ready to re-install the cradle. also fixed my auto 2 manual swap wiring while I was at it.

anyways - the Q:
is there a way to know what "codemask" my ECM has? (not even sure what "codemask" is...)


"Code Mask" is another name for OS, or Operating System. Basically the OS is to a GM ECM as Windows XP or Vista is to your PC. The OS in the ECM runs the engine and controls the various outputs based on the information stored in the calibration, or programming.

The only way to determine what code mask/programming your ECM has is by deciphering the broadcast code (BCC) that labels the stock chip. Examples of where to find the BCC can be seen here: http://www.gmtuners.com/eprom/BCC.jpg

Locate yours and email me with it and I will see if I can find out what it is.

-ryan


Mister MSG #610, 05-25-2008 03:58 PM
      Hi all,
Looking to buy the 87-88 4cyl ECM Tray
If you got it please PM me. Payment via PayPal
Will offer upto $20 for the tray including shipping (USPS) to Canada.
Thanks


Richjk21 MSG #611, 05-25-2008 05:24 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Mister:

Hi all,
Looking to buy the 87-88 4cyl ECM Tray
If you got it please PM me. Payment via PayPal
Will offer upto $20 for the tray including shipping (USPS) to Canada.
Thanks


lol.... yeah ... me too


Mister MSG #612, 05-27-2008 04:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Richjk21: lol.... yeah ... me too


I got mine

P.M darkhorizon - He should have one http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/042608.html



Richjk21 MSG #613, 05-27-2008 05:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Mister:


I got mine

P.M darkhorizon - He should have one http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/042608.html


Thanks

Rich

[This message has been edited by Richjk21 (edited 05-28-2008).]

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #614, 06-12-2008 11:39 AM
      finally finished my 7730 swap (along with other changes) - and, when I tried to start it - no fire up. I am not getting fuel. hooked up a fuel pressure guage. when I first turn it on - I get a weak 30 psi. if I drain off pressure - it wont build back. It seems the fuel pump will turn on for a tiny bit, when the key is first turned - but thats it, no more. is there a change in how the fuel pump is run?

edit - update: put power to pin G on the ALDL - and get my 40PSI, solid. still not starting tho...
tho - now I remember that I dont know if this ECM was from a DIS or Distributer motor....any way to visually tell? I removed the distributer, and am trying to use DIS.

[This message has been edited by Pyrthian (edited 06-12-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #615, 06-12-2008 02:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

finally finished my 7730 swap (along with other changes) - and, when I tried to start it - no fire up. I am not getting fuel. hooked up a fuel pressure guage. when I first turn it on - I get a weak 30 psi. if I drain off pressure - it wont build back. It seems the fuel pump will turn on for a tiny bit, when the key is first turned - but thats it, no more. is there a change in how the fuel pump is run?

edit - update: put power to pin G on the ALDL - and get my 40PSI, solid. still not starting tho...
tho - now I remember that I dont know if this ECM was from a DIS or Distributer motor....any way to visually tell? I removed the distributer, and am trying to use DIS.




The fuel pump power system is handled the same way when using the 7730 ECM vs. the stock Fiero ECM. It sounds to me like you might have a wiring problem somewhere that needs to be addressed.

The fuel pump should run for 2 sec when you first key on the ignition. Then the fuel pump should run when the engine is cranked because the ECM should be seeing a reference pulse from the ignition module. If the fuel pump is NOT running during engine cranking, then either the computer isn't receiving the reference pulse or there is a wiring problem and the computer is not powering up properly (check power and ground feeds to the ECM).

If you have switched to DIS on this car, pull all of the plug wires off the coil pack and have someone crank the engine over while you watch the coil pack. You should see a spark jump across all coil towers sequentially as the engine cranks. If you see no spark then either you have a wiring problem at or to the coil pack, a bad crank sensor, or a power supply issue to the system.

-ryan


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #616, 06-12-2008 03:20 PM
      well, went to the junkyard, and got a "chip" - the whole blue thingy from a known DIS car. swapped it in, and now I get the fuel pressure as expected. I hear the pump for a second or 2
when I bleed off the pressure tho, it doesnt build back.
and, did check for spark...none......
the tach bounces when I crank - which I am guessing means at least part of the crank sensor & ignition module are working, since the signal is made in the igntion module, from the crank sensor data.
the "check engine" light works


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #617, 06-12-2008 05:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

well, went to the junkyard, and got a "chip" - the whole blue thingy from a known DIS car. swapped it in, and now I get the fuel pressure as expected. I hear the pump for a second or 2
when I bleed off the pressure tho, it doesnt build back.
and, did check for spark...none......
the tach bounces when I crank - which I am guessing means at least part of the crank sensor & ignition module are working, since the signal is made in the igntion module, from the crank sensor data.
the "check engine" light works


If you are not getting spark then STOP. You have a problem either with the ignition module, ignition coils, crank sensor, or wiring going to any of these devices. You must find and repair the cause of the no-spark issue before doing further diagnosis with the ECM.

-ryan


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #618, 06-12-2008 06:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
If you are not getting spark then STOP. You have a problem either with the ignition module, ignition coils, crank sensor, or wiring going to any of these devices. You must find and repair the cause of the no-spark issue before doing further diagnosis with the ECM.

-ryan


I've been concentrating on getting fuel. at the point where I dont think any injectors are firing. got fuel pressure, but, dont smell fuel in the exhaust or on plugs when I remove them. after finding popped INJ fuses, replaced them - they stayed good, but still smell no fuel. gonna be a quite a fun troubleshooting weekend....

also thinking if the tach is bouncing around 300-600 while cranking - that the crank sensor, and ignition module are at least getting pulses. have not had a 2nd person to completely verify the no spark. also, have verified power to the DIS block.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #619, 06-12-2008 06:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


I've been concentrating on getting fuel. at the point where I dont think any injectors are firing. got fuel pressure, but, dont smell fuel in the exhaust or on plugs when I remove them. after finding popped INJ fuses, replaced them - they stayed good, but still smell no fuel. gonna be a quite a fun troubleshooting weekend....

also thinking if the tach is bouncing around 300-600 while cranking - that the crank sensor, and ignition module are at least getting pulses. have not had a 2nd person to completely verify the no spark. also, have verified power to the DIS block.



If there is no spark, then there's a good chance the reference pulse isn't being sent to the ECM from the ignition module to tell it when to fire the injectors. Hence the reason why I recommend you find the cause to the no-spark issue and repair that first before anything else. I wouldn't worry about the bouncing tach at the moment either; that could be caused by a number of electrical issues or even a bad ignition module.

First thing you need to do is get the spark working.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 06-12-2008).]

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #620, 06-12-2008 10:35 PM
      ok, sounds good. I am pretty confident about the wiring, so - can I just take the whole coil pack assembly out, and take it somewhere for testing? is it possible that if I had the wrong chip - like for a distributer, or a 4 cyl with TBI - that it may have cooked the ignition module? the popped INJ fuses worries me also - but could that be from all 6 being on one line now, instead of the 2 seperate banks from the original Fiero ECM - beings it is a dbl load now?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #621, 06-13-2008 06:13 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

ok, sounds good. I am pretty confident about the wiring, so - can I just take the whole coil pack assembly out, and take it somewhere for testing? is it possible that if I had the wrong chip - like for a distributer, or a 4 cyl with TBI - that it may have cooked the ignition module? the popped INJ fuses worries me also - but could that be from all 6 being on one line now, instead of the 2 seperate banks from the original Fiero ECM - beings it is a dbl load now?


A 4cyl chip will NOT cook the ignition module. I don't know if any parts stores or shops have the ability to test GM DIS ignition modules, they might -- you will have to check. All 6 injectors being on the same circuit should not have popped the fuse (unless you were running too small of a fuse -- should be 10 amp). If you are popping 10amp fuses, then you have a wiring problem or a bad injector (internal short). Not too much else it could be.

-ryan



Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #622, 06-13-2008 10:07 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
A 4cyl chip will NOT cook the ignition module. I don't know if any parts stores or shops have the ability to test GM DIS ignition modules, they might -- you will have to check. All 6 injectors being on the same circuit should not have popped the fuse (unless you were running too small of a fuse -- should be 10 amp). If you are popping 10amp fuses, then you have a wiring problem or a bad injector (internal short). Not too much else it could be.

-ryan


the original fuses for INJ1 & INJ2 were 5 amp. I did replace them both with 10 amp, since I did remember which circuit was wired, INJ 1 or INJ2, and assumed a dbl load.
next - how do I test the crank sensor? only thing I can think of is an oscilliscope, and that I dont have. but, the crank sensor "twsited pair" is one part or the wiring I was not so confident about - maybe I"ll make a new one. I dont wanna just throw parts tho....but I dont think I have the equipment to test a single part of this, except continuity......


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #623, 06-13-2008 02:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:


the original fuses for INJ1 & INJ2 were 5 amp. I did replace them both with 10 amp, since I did remember which circuit was wired, INJ 1 or INJ2, and assumed a dbl load.
next - how do I test the crank sensor? only thing I can think of is an oscilliscope, and that I dont have. but, the crank sensor "twsited pair" is one part or the wiring I was not so confident about - maybe I"ll make a new one. I dont wanna just throw parts tho....but I dont think I have the equipment to test a single part of this, except continuity......


Using an Oscilliscope is the only way to properly test the crank sensor.

You haven't used a test light to test anything having to do with the ECM or IGN Module, have you? If you have, that could have fried those components. You can only use a Digital Volt-Ohm Meter to test ECM-connected components.



Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #624, 06-13-2008 02:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
Using an Oscilliscope is the only way to properly test the crank sensor.

You haven't used a test light to test anything having to do with the ECM or IGN Module, have you? If you have, that could have fried those components. You can only use a Digital Volt-Ohm Meter to test ECM-connected components.


damn...where to find an o-scope.....
no, the only thing I have checked is the power connection to the DIS block.
I guess I'll just go to the junk yard, and find a 2nd crank sender & DIS block.....and make a new twsited pair....hate to just throw parts - but dont see a alternative


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #625, 06-15-2008 02:30 PM
      yay spark. replaced crank trigger. after pulling the old one out, I saw it was just corrosion on the contacts. that sensor has remained on my block all along - but, never had anything plugged into it. still hasnt started yet - no fuel still. but, I do have pressure & spark. going over the wiring, section at a time from the injectors, back towards the ECM & +12. my multi meter pooped on me in the middle of testing the "auto range" started not locking down, and it would just scroll thru the range searching.....so, back to checking when that's replaced....

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #626, 06-15-2008 06:24 PM
      well, got the new multimeter. I found that with igntion on, but not cranking, I was getting 8 volts going to the injectors - when there should be none. unplugged the ECM connector, and it immediatly shot to none/infinity - just to make sure it wasnt a leak in the wiring harness. sounds like the ECM injector driver is Poo Poo. when I touched the case of the ECM - it was HOT. guess this was why that particluar car was at the U-pull-it......

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #627, 06-16-2008 12:59 PM
      got another ECM for the U-pull-it. was from a vehcile that looked like it overheated - good sign for me - only way to overheat is to be running

so, swapped it in - no change. spark, no fuel. and - I am very surprised at the voltage at the injectors when they are closed. digging a little more into it - I guess thats how it goes - there is voltage - but barely any current, so the injectors stay closed. now I see why these injectors drivers are so prone to fail - they "leak". so, now back to needing an O-scope to see if I am getting a signla from the igntion module to the ECM.

I got spark, I got fuel pressure, I got +12 to the injectors, and continuity back to the ECM. so - yes, sounds like the signal from igntion module to ECM is missing. how to test this...? but - the low bouncy tach - that means a signal is in fact coming out of the ignition module. hmmm....back to the notes...


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #628, 06-16-2008 01:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:
hmmm....back to the notes...


and the answer found...got it started...injector grounds from ECM - oops - added them, and it fired right up.
did the cam break in - the rad fan kicked on twice under ECM control - yay
after the cam break-in - goosed the peddle a few times, idle dropped right down to solid smooth 600-700
no major leaks, no major smoke, except burnoff from the build.

woohoo!


jimbuca (jimbucajoe@sbcglobal.net) MSG #629, 06-20-2008 10:24 PM
      do you think this swap will make it bye the Evil California party poopers (smog test)

jimbuca (jimbucajoe@sbcglobal.net) MSG #630, 06-20-2008 10:27 PM
      do you think think this modif. will pass the California smog tests
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

I now have wiring instructions available for wiring up the 7730 ECM -AND- DIS (distributorless ignition system) to the Fiero 2.8 wiring harness. You can download them here: http://www.gmtuners.com/fil...o_V6_to_7730_DIS.pdf

You can download the 7730 wiring instructions for distributor applications here (so you don't have to go back to earlier pages in this thread to find the link): http://www.gmtuners.com/files/Fiero2.8_to_7730.pdf

-ryan





Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #631, 06-20-2008 10:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by jimbuca:

do you think think this modif. will pass the California smog tests


Don't know.



Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #632, 06-21-2008 08:20 AM
      it should. better O2 sensor response, and better EGR system.

Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #633, 06-27-2008 05:35 PM
      how long does it take for the ECM to "re-learn" or adjust to my motor? does it take 20 mins driving, like the Fiero ECM, or does it happen much quicker? I have yet to actually "hit the road".

JazzMan (jazzman@fierocentral.com) MSG #634, 06-27-2008 06:04 PM
      The idle learn is immediate. Fuel trims are fast for each cell, but it takes a while to populate all the cells. Unless you're having problems no need to worry about it.

Would be a good idea to get a scan tool so you can see your BLMs and INTs.

JazzMan


JazzMan (jazzman@fierocentral.com) MSG #635, 06-27-2008 06:04 PM
      .

[This message has been edited by JazzMan (edited 06-30-2008).]

Marvin McInnis MSG #636, 06-28-2008 01:11 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

Don't know.



Wise man.

P.S. -- Thanks for this thread. Really useful information.


MulletproofMonk MSG #637, 06-29-2008 12:45 AM
      What does the "digital EVAP purge valve" for the digital cruise control look like? Can someone post a picture of the parts I would need for this?

I'll also try to see if there are some 7730 ECM at the yard if anyone needs one PM me.

-Brian


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #638, 06-29-2008 01:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by MulletproofMonk:

What does the "digital EVAP purge valve" for the digital cruise control look like? Can someone post a picture of the parts I would need for this?

I'll also try to see if there are some 7730 ECM at the yard if anyone needs one PM me.

-Brian


The digital cruise control doesn't use an EVAP purge valve. The EVAP purge valve solenoid is used by the 7730 ECM to regulate the amount of fuel vapors entering the engine from the charcoal canister. Just about any EVAP purge valve solenoid from any late 80's and up GM car will work, as long as it is a "stand-alone" unit. During the 90's, GM mounted the EVAP purge solenoid directly to the charcoal canister in some vehicles; and these canisters were too large to fit in the Fiero's canister mounting bracket -- so they won't work. But EVAP purge solenoids that I do know for sure that will work are those found on 3800 Series 2 n/a and SC engines. They have two vacuum ports and one electrical plug. I will see if I can get a picture of one posted to this thread later.

-ryan



MulletproofMonk MSG #639, 06-29-2008 10:32 PM
      As always Ryan, you rock. I also sent a email to you about programming my memcal chip.

-Brian R


MulletproofMonk MSG #640, 07-01-2008 10:40 PM
      Someone mentioned a tool to pull the wires from the harness, where can you get it? I tried a paper clip to pull the wires and it didn't work...

-Brian


mswenson289 (mswenson289@yahoo.com) MSG #641, 07-02-2008 10:07 AM
      Picked mine up at NAPA for under $5.00
If you need a p/n i will check tonight.
Mike


mswenson289 (mswenson289@yahoo.com) MSG #642, 07-02-2008 10:25 AM
      Ryan:
86 SE 3.4 4T60 7730 with EGR mod. Still fighting multiple issues so they may be related, I just don't know. At startup idle is about 1250 constant for 6-10 seconds then smoothly lowers to 900 as expected. After driving awhile hard downshifts (might be related to needed the adjustable modulator adjusted on the tranny) when coming to a stop idle is at 1300 till it comes to a complete stop like it is watching the vss signal and at 0, idle goes to 900 cough's, idle goes back to 1300- 1500 and the whole car surges a couple of feet. It is possible to do this upwards of 6 times for one attempt to stop, but mostly after the surge it returns to 900 and idles sometimes it just dies. If you slap it into neutral on your approach to a stop it will search a little but seldom dies. No error codes. I have cleaned IAC passages and TB. Disconnected TCC, have looked for a vacuum leak cold and warm. Does the ecm wait for the vss signal to stop assuming load is removed? Any ideas?
Mike


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #643, 07-02-2008 10:56 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by MulletproofMonk:

Someone mentioned a tool to pull the wires from the harness, where can you get it? I tried a paper clip to pull the wires and it didn't work...

-Brian


yes, the tool, if you can find it is great - I couldn't. what I used was a hairpin. flat stock, scrape off ball at end, use flat side. was just the right size to fit in the little square hole, and hit the realease. tho, with the hairpin - you can go to far into the hole, and pass the realease. I expect the official tool changes sizes, or is marked in some way to not pass the realease.


MulletproofMonk MSG #644, 07-02-2008 11:03 AM
      Part number would be great. I may have to try and stop on the way home from work since they close at something like 3:30pm. They have good stuff but the have bankers hours...

Anyone have a picture of a digital EVAP?

-Brian


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #645, 07-02-2008 02:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mswenson289:

Ryan:
86 SE 3.4 4T60 7730 with EGR mod. Still fighting multiple issues so they may be related, I just don't know. At startup idle is about 1250 constant for 6-10 seconds then smoothly lowers to 900 as expected. After driving awhile hard downshifts (might be related to needed the adjustable modulator adjusted on the tranny) when coming to a stop idle is at 1300 till it comes to a complete stop like it is watching the vss signal and at 0, idle goes to 900 cough's, idle goes back to 1300- 1500 and the whole car surges a couple of feet. It is possible to do this upwards of 6 times for one attempt to stop, but mostly after the surge it returns to 900 and idles sometimes it just dies. If you slap it into neutral on your approach to a stop it will search a little but seldom dies. No error codes. I have cleaned IAC passages and TB. Disconnected TCC, have looked for a vacuum leak cold and warm. Does the ecm wait for the vss signal to stop assuming load is removed? Any ideas?
Mike


You will need to hook up a scan tool to the ECM and get me some readings. First thing I want to see is closed throttle TPS voltage, then I want to know what the IAC position counts are doing when you are having these problems. I suspect you either have a vacuum leak or a mis-adjusted throttle stop screw (causing the IAC counts to drop to "0" and forcing the ECM to pull timing advance out to try to get the idle down).

-ryan


OH10fiero (scottfiero27@aol.com) MSG #646, 07-03-2008 05:08 PM
      Was on your site looking at the posted info for the 7730 ECM and nothing showed up when I clicked on any of the options, not even a PDF download. Do you know when you will have that info up?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #647, 07-03-2008 05:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by OH10fiero:

Was on your site looking at the posted info for the 7730 ECM and nothing showed up when I clicked on any of the options, not even a PDF download. Do you know when you will have that info up?



What URL/Page were you on when this happened? (please let me know so I can correct the issue if there is one)

What were you looking for, the wiring instructions download link?


Daviero MSG #648, 07-05-2008 09:50 PM
      About the 7730 and the speedo....
My speedo registers about 40mph at a walking speed, and bounces off the pin if I go much faster.
I am running a 7730 ECM reconditioned by Ryan Hess for a Northstar and have implanted a Quad-4 differential into my 5 spd Getrag transmission. I did not keep the Fiero VSS and opted to use the reluctor VSS from the Quad 4 leaving the notched wheel on the new diff. I have wired the ECM and the VSS per Ryan Hess' diagram, which is exactly the same as info in this thread and on Darth's site as far as the VSS goes. I rung out all the wiring to confirm correctness, and found that I had grounded the speedo low wire (purple) on the chassis ground near the ECM (G503 I think?). I removed the ground but the problem prevails.
I am running the buffer circuit, powered by C203-F, but cannot check it since I cast the wiring like a circuit board for mounting puposes. The only check I have left is to replace the buffer with a new one to confirm correctness, but I am confident the one that is there is correct.
What might be causing the problem? Do I have to flash the ECM for a different pulse ratio?
Dave



TiredGXP MSG #649, 07-06-2008 01:10 AM
      Hey Ryan,

I've been thinking about how speed density (SD) systems are sensitive to temperature changes, and the difficulties involved in properly adjusting bias values to help compensate for changes in intake air temperature. When running a MAF system, the MAF seems to handle air density changes due to termperature fluctuations much better than SD.

Are there any code masks out there for the 7730 that are compatible with a 3.1 DIS with both SD and MAF?

Cheers


OH10fiero (scottfiero27@aol.com) MSG #650, 07-06-2008 08:55 PM
      From here on the forum I clicked on your homepage link and went to general swap info, the only two links that did not bring up a seperate page under that heading were the two links regarding the 7730 info. I wanted to view both pages to see what info I needed before caontacting you on a custom chip.

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #651, 07-07-2008 06:28 AM
      i,ve decided to sell my car and have not put the 7730 ecm unit in it.
i have almost a compleat turbo kit, that i was going to install into my car. but baby forces sell
i will sell all my 7730ecm and turbo parts including injectors for 1500.00 obo
i will sell the car and all the parts i have to the first 6500.00
here is my build thread http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/087040.html


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #652, 07-07-2008 02:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daviero:

About the 7730 and the speedo....
My speedo registers about 40mph at a walking speed, and bounces off the pin if I go much faster.
I am running a 7730 ECM reconditioned by Ryan Hess for a Northstar and have implanted a Quad-4 differential into my 5 spd Getrag transmission. I did not keep the Fiero VSS and opted to use the reluctor VSS from the Quad 4 leaving the notched wheel on the new diff. I have wired the ECM and the VSS per Ryan Hess' diagram, which is exactly the same as info in this thread and on Darth's site as far as the VSS goes. I rung out all the wiring to confirm correctness, and found that I had grounded the speedo low wire (purple) on the chassis ground near the ECM (G503 I think?). I removed the ground but the problem prevails.
I am running the buffer circuit, powered by C203-F, but cannot check it since I cast the wiring like a circuit board for mounting puposes. The only check I have left is to replace the buffer with a new one to confirm correctness, but I am confident the one that is there is correct.
What might be causing the problem? Do I have to flash the ECM for a different pulse ratio?
Dave



Yes the chip in the ECM needs to be reprogrammed with the correct VSS pulse ratios for your application so your speedo will work correctly.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #653, 07-07-2008 02:22 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by TiredGXP:

Hey Ryan,

I've been thinking about how speed density (SD) systems are sensitive to temperature changes, and the difficulties involved in properly adjusting bias values to help compensate for changes in intake air temperature. When running a MAF system, the MAF seems to handle air density changes due to termperature fluctuations much better than SD.

Are there any code masks out there for the 7730 that are compatible with a 3.1 DIS with both SD and MAF?

Cheers


Back when the 7730 ECM was first introduced, both a MAF and a MAP sensor were used. But GM had many problems with those very early MAF systems used with these computers and came out with the "Speed Density Update" which basically disabled the MAF sensor. With all the drivability problems they had with those early MAF systems, I would not attempt to retrofit one of these systems to use it.

Instead what I would do, if you have a new enough engine, would be to use a 1994-95 3100 A-body PCM which is MAF based, or step up to a full-blown OBD2 computer from a newer year. Trouble is all of these systems require a Cam sensor and 2 crank sensors. And I don't think there are any parts available to make a stock Fiero 2.8 or like engine compatible with these systems. Just FYI the 1993-95 iron-head 3.4 F-body V6 does have all of these sensors.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #654, 07-07-2008 02:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by OH10fiero:

From here on the forum I clicked on your homepage link and went to general swap info, the only two links that did not bring up a seperate page under that heading were the two links regarding the 7730 info. I wanted to view both pages to see what info I needed before caontacting you on a custom chip.


Both of the following links on my "Fiero Engine Conversion Info" page should bring up / display a .PDF document showing the wiring instructions for the 7730 ECM swap (but that is ALL that is shown)...

"How to wire up a 1227730 ECM to your stock Fiero 2.8"

"How to wire up a 1227730 ECM and DIS using the stock Fiero V6 wiring harness"

I don't have any pictures or instructions other than the wiring instructions linked to from those headings. If you were looking for a step-by-step instruction page with pictures, sorry but I don't have those at this time.




TiredGXP MSG #655, 07-07-2008 08:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


Back when the 7730 ECM was first introduced, both a MAF and a MAP sensor were used. But GM had many problems with those very early MAF systems used with these computers and came out with the "Speed Density Update" which basically disabled the MAF sensor. With all the drivability problems they had with those early MAF systems, I would not attempt to retrofit one of these systems to use it.

Instead what I would do, if you have a new enough engine, would be to use a 1994-95 3100 A-body PCM which is MAF based, or step up to a full-blown OBD2 computer from a newer year. Trouble is all of these systems require a Cam sensor and 2 crank sensors. And I don't think there are any parts available to make a stock Fiero 2.8 or like engine compatible with these systems. Just FYI the 1993-95 iron-head 3.4 F-body V6 does have all of these sensors.


Thanks. Based on my set-up it looks like I'll be staying with a SD system. When I'm a bit further along with the engine build I'll PM you about getting a "starter" chip burned.

Cheers


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #656, 07-07-2008 09:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mswenson289:

Ryan:
86 SE 3.4 4T60 7730 with EGR mod. Still fighting multiple issues so they may be related, I just don't know. At startup idle is about 1250 constant for 6-10 seconds then smoothly lowers to 900 as expected. After driving awhile hard downshifts (might be related to needed the adjustable modulator adjusted on the tranny) when coming to a stop idle is at 1300 till it comes to a complete stop like it is watching the vss signal and at 0, idle goes to 900 cough's, idle goes back to 1300- 1500 and the whole car surges a couple of feet. It is possible to do this upwards of 6 times for one attempt to stop, but mostly after the surge it returns to 900 and idles sometimes it just dies. If you slap it into neutral on your approach to a stop it will search a little but seldom dies. No error codes. I have cleaned IAC passages and TB. Disconnected TCC, have looked for a vacuum leak cold and warm. Does the ecm wait for the vss signal to stop assuming load is removed? Any ideas?
Mike

The first thing to come to mind is to check the throttle body, and make sure it isn't sticking partially open at idle. Mine was doing that, and it caused similar problems.


Daviero MSG #657, 07-07-2008 11:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


Yes the chip in the ECM needs to be reprogrammed with the correct VSS pulse ratios for your application so your speedo will work correctly.



I was hoping that would not be the answer Ryan. Is the reluctor VSS still 4000 pulses per mile? I have bought a chip burner but have not used it yet and still need the software. I'm not looking forward to learning how. I know you have some info on your site though. Wish me luck?



Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #658, 07-07-2008 11:25 PM
      I am noticing a weird thing after my 7730 swap. I am assuming it is happening because the car I got the ECM from was an automatic. When I am driving along, and come up to a light, and push in the clutch, or roll in neutral - the idle surges up & down until I am under roughly 20 MPH.

OH10fiero (scottfiero27@aol.com) MSG #659, 07-08-2008 03:02 AM
      The only pics I was expecting was any mods that you mentioned on the additon grounding, but to get back on topic I donot even get a option of a PDF download from those links. I will try a friends computer next week and see if I get any luck out of that.

 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


Both of the following links on my "Fiero Engine Conversion Info" page should bring up / display a .PDF document showing the wiring instructions for the 7730 ECM swap (but that is ALL that is shown)...

"How to wire up a 1227730 ECM to your stock Fiero 2.8"

"How to wire up a 1227730 ECM and DIS using the stock Fiero V6 wiring harness"

I don't have any pictures or instructions other than the wiring instructions linked to from those headings. If you were looking for a step-by-step instruction page with pictures, sorry but I don't have those at this time.





americasfuture2k MSG #660, 07-08-2008 06:00 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

I am noticing a weird thing after my 7730 swap. I am assuming it is happening because the car I got the ECM from was an automatic. When I am driving along, and come up to a light, and push in the clutch, or roll in neutral - the idle surges up & down until I am under roughly 20 MPH.


i believe that is from the 7730 looking for an auto since it came from an auto car and now it doesnt see one. i swapped my 95 taurus to the SHO MTX-IV, and i had similar problems since the car was originally an auto and i had not changed the pcm/ecm or whatever fraud calls it. but my engine was stalling with every stop and everytime there was no load on the engine or the throttle was off.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #661, 07-09-2008 02:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daviero:
I was hoping that would not be the answer Ryan. Is the reluctor VSS still 4000 pulses per mile? I have bought a chip burner but have not used it yet and still need the software. I'm not looking forward to learning how. I know you have some info on your site though. Wish me luck?



Sounds to me like the VSS and reluctor you installed into your trans is putting out about 24,000 PPM which is what the later manual transmission VSS/reluctors produced. The ECM chip would need to be reprogrammed to fix this. The only other way to work around this problem besides getting the chip reprogrammed would be to purchase an aftermarket speed sensor signal adjustment box like the SGI-5 from Dakota Digital. But it would probably be cheaper to have your chip reprogrammed.

-ryan

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 07-09-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #662, 07-09-2008 02:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by OH10fiero:

The only pics I was expecting was any mods that you mentioned on the additon grounding, but to get back on topic I donot even get a option of a PDF download from those links. I will try a friends computer next week and see if I get any luck out of that.



You will need to have adobe reader installed on your PC. Then when you click on one of the 7730 swap links on my webpage, it should open a new window or prompt you to download a .pdf file. If you have lots of anti-virus software or similar protection on your computer it may be blocking these links -- but still something should happen when you click on these links that prompts you that a file is trying to be downloaded or something. (do you see the notification bar appear at the top of your browser when you click one of these links?)


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #663, 07-09-2008 02:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Pyrthian:

I am noticing a weird thing after my 7730 swap. I am assuming it is happening because the car I got the ECM from was an automatic. When I am driving along, and come up to a light, and push in the clutch, or roll in neutral - the idle surges up & down until I am under roughly 20 MPH.


Was the chip reprogrammed for a manual transmission or is it programmed for an auto? This problem could also be caused by a vacuum leak, incorrect throttle stop screw setting, or IAC problem.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #664, 07-09-2008 02:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by MulletproofMonk:

What does the "digital EVAP purge valve" for the digital cruise control look like? Can someone post a picture of the parts I would need for this?

I'll also try to see if there are some 7730 ECM at the yard if anyone needs one PM me.

-Brian


Here's a link to a picture of a EVAP purge solenoid used on the 3800SC engines (also known as Canister Purge Solenoid)

http://198.208.187.182/inte...21&acpartnbr=214-642




MulletproofMonk MSG #665, 07-09-2008 03:12 PM
      Okay, I think I overlooked getting some of those from the junkyard...

-Brian


Mister MSG #666, 08-06-2008 02:18 AM
      Hi all,
After a long preparation and following this thread closely, I have finally got this ECM swap done.
We usually do all of the work on our Fieros on our own, but this time around the circumstances led me to Darth's shop and getting the job done by the pro himself.

I have no affiliation to Ryan, I emailed him a few times with questions and liked the responses, then we met at the 25th, and that closed the deal for me. Since I was on my long way west, he agreed to do the project ASAP and I was @ his shop 2 days later.

This is not a technical writeup but picture log serving as a description of the general process and the fine work Darth has done on my Fiero. I thank Ryan for his patience, as I was hovering over his shoulder with my camera (as I do in our own projects )

I hope this would clarify the 7730 swap and help others take on this mod.

~~ 7730 ECM Swap ~~ Pictorial description ~~

At the shop


All the parts I've brought with me, most removed from a Beretta GT


Darth Fiero


Wiring harness I got out of the Beretta. Used for the ECM connectors etc.


Center console removed and a hole drilled through the right connector to run the extra wires



(The mess of wires on the left is for my Carputer, and not relevant to this project)

Wires into the cabin


Wires on engine side


This is the Digital EGR adapter plate made by Gwain, a.k.a Marc


EGR bolts properly torqued


EGR wiring






Wires running close to the fire wall


New knock sensor and wires


Completing the cabin side wiring, soldering and heat shrink




Installation of the Fiero 88 4cyl ECM tray to match the 7730 ECM


Final wires tapping


ECM installed




EGR control solenoid deleted


Cold start injector disconnected, Fan switch disconnected, Redundant vacuum lines cleared and plugged.


New EVAP control unit installed and wired in place


"Set timing connector" - installed on the distributor wiring to allow adjustment on base timing

(The timing plug is just below the spark plug wires. The extra plugs you see are for the MSD box.)

All ready for the tunning


And more tunning...We did several test drives and further tunning to bring the setup to it's best performance and drive ability.


Final product


Out and ready for her maiden voyage 2859 km home...


Since we don’t have exact “numbers” to go by, all my comments below are based of my “feeling” and knowing the car.
After this road trip I have noted the following:

- Startup - The car starts up great and rests at the set idle of 850 RPM (sounds nice)
- Gas Mileage - I would keep monitoring it, as I did 98% highway driving I did not notice a measurable improvement yet.
- Response and power - The engine feels solid and "alive" - no other ways to describe it.
- Pinging - My Fiero had pinging issues that we were not able to solve for a long time, this problem prevented me from properly enjoying the car. Needless to say...Bye bye pinging
Now with the knock sensor the engine can be pushed and pulled any way I want to, with no fear of internal detonation damage.
(I know the real problem that caused the pinging might still exist, but since we tried EVERYTHING...I'm just glad it's gone)

Don't let my subtle ways mislead you, I am extremely satisfied with this mod and positive that with time and new tunning possibilities embedded in this "newer" generation ECM my overall satisfaction and joy of driving will increase.

Given the time and place I would have done this project myself with the help of my Fiero friends. However, I don't think I would have been able to get this project properly done and running within the time restraint and using "trial and error" method.

I would like to objectively and openly recommend Ryan's services in performing this and other performance upgrades. I found him a true Fiero expert and a great guy to deal with. I have paid his asking rate for this job and he has exceeded my expectations in the level of craftsmanship and end result.

I decided to post this info in his original thread so to keep good information in one place.
I would keep you posted as I gain more experience driving with this improved engine management system. To all of you that are considering this ECM swap. Go ahead



3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #667, 08-14-2008 06:07 AM
      will this data loger work for the 7730 ecu? will it help me tune the cyclone bin file you suplied? is it worth the $80
http://www.moates.net/produ...h=49&products_id=127

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 08-14-2008).]

Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #668, 08-14-2008 08:26 AM
      Oh well, can't delete my post, but I think I have an answer.

thanks
Matt

[This message has been edited by Madess (edited 08-14-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #669, 08-14-2008 10:47 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

will this data loger work for the 7730 ecu? will it help me tune the cyclone bin file you suplied? is it worth the $80
http://www.moates.net/produ...h=49&products_id=127



TTS Datamaster, TunerPro RT, and EFI Live V4 (OBD-1) will all log data from the 7730 running the $58 (Syclone/Typhoon) .bin file I made for you. I think what you buy from moates.net is just the cable, then the scanning/logging software must be downloaded/purchased seperately. The Datamaster software has a 20-use free trial and can be download from the net. The TunerPro RT software is actually a tuning suite but has a scanner plug-in; and is probably going to be your least expensive choice out of these three. EFI Live OBD1 has to be purchased to get the full use out of it.

-ryan


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #670, 08-14-2008 03:10 PM
      thanks ryan you saved me $80 i already have tunnerpro-RT bought it the same time as my RT-emulator

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #671, 08-14-2008 08:52 PM
      ok after reading your message agin i relize im an idiot ok so do i need the cable or will my current setup work?
currently moates ostrich and tunnerproRT.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #672, 08-14-2008 11:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

ok after reading your message agin i relize im an idiot ok so do i need the cable or will my current setup work?
currently moates ostrich and tunnerproRT.


You need an interface cable that will connect the laptop PC to the ALDL port. The Ostrich does not have this capability.



3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #673, 08-15-2008 01:39 AM
      so do you recomend the item that i showed you or is it a waste of money? i found a ALDL-USB cable but it alone costs $70.00

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 08-15-2008).]

MulletproofMonk MSG #674, 08-15-2008 09:24 AM
      Okay, question on installing a knock sensor. This water jack that people are talking about, is it a hole that is already there and plugged? Does it need to be tapped or is it already threaded? I want make sure that I understand what I am doing before I tear into it.

-Brian


mtownfiero (andrewj592@aol.com) MSG #675, 08-17-2008 02:46 PM
      Hey everyone, ive read this thread before but im scanning through it again because im about to start the wiring for my swap.. again lol. I was given some wrong information the first time but now i should be on the right track. The motor im using is a 3.1lmpfi, im keeping the aluminum heads and intake and running it with the 7730 and DIS. What i have now is the ecm, fiero harness, cavi harness, coils and the thing thats under it forget what its called (ignition module?), crank sensor is in the block still but the knock sensor is not. So my first question is am i missing anything to run DIS besides the knock sensor? Also does anyone have a part # and a price for one? My next series of questions has to do with the wiring itself.

First i printed out the 7730 with DIS chart to work with the fiero harness. I sat down and took a look at the connectors to try and better understand what to do and i got really confused. Looking at the fiero connector's its easy to see on one theres a A and a B on one connector and a C and a D on the other and all the pins are numbered 1 to 16. Where i get lost is that for example it says move pin A1 to BA11? Where the hell did it go from one letter to two? There is also a mistake in the chart on pin D15 the color is blue like D16 not green. Another confusing thing is that the yellow connector like the bigger black connector says C and D on it also.

The other page with the 2 charts on it is also confusing to me in some of the same ways. Where it says pin BA5 and the action to move the a/c presure sensor to terminal B im not understanding where pin BA5 is coming from and where terminal B for the a/c is and so on. The only part i dont get about the lat part again is where pin A-F are? I feel like im missing something because so many others have done this with out any problem but im just not understanding some of these things.

Finally when doing the repinning thats just with the fiero connectors but what do i need to tie in from the yellow one? Im not running an egr on this motor so that is something i dont need for parts and dont need to wire. Thanks for any help, andrew.

edited because i figured some stuff out but still have questions

[This message has been edited by mtownfiero (edited 08-17-2008).]

mtownfiero (andrewj592@aol.com) MSG #676, 08-17-2008 10:54 PM
      bump

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #677, 08-18-2008 12:15 AM
      any one useing a air/fule meter? thinking about getting one i know wideband is the best but how well do the narrowband (single-wire) ones work?

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 08-18-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #678, 08-18-2008 01:09 AM
      The water jacket drain hole I spoke about earlier that you can install the knock sensor into is already threaded -- all you need to do is remove the plug and install the knock sensor -- torque sensor to 13 ft/lbs.

You can find both types of ALDL interface cables (USB or 9-pin Serial port) here: www.aldlcable.com


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #679, 08-18-2008 01:10 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mtownfiero:

Hey everyone, ive read this thread before but im scanning through it again because im about to start the wiring for my swap.. again lol. I was given some wrong information the first time but now i should be on the right track. The motor im using is a 3.1lmpfi, im keeping the aluminum heads and intake and running it with the 7730 and DIS. What i have now is the ecm, fiero harness, cavi harness, coils and the thing thats under it forget what its called (ignition module?), crank sensor is in the block still but the knock sensor is not. So my first question is am i missing anything to run DIS besides the knock sensor? Also does anyone have a part # and a price for one? My next series of questions has to do with the wiring itself.

First i printed out the 7730 with DIS chart to work with the fiero harness. I sat down and took a look at the connectors to try and better understand what to do and i got really confused. Looking at the fiero connector's its easy to see on one theres a A and a B on one connector and a C and a D on the other and all the pins are numbered 1 to 16. Where i get lost is that for example it says move pin A1 to BA11? Where the hell did it go from one letter to two? There is also a mistake in the chart on pin D15 the color is blue like D16 not green. Another confusing thing is that the yellow connector like the bigger black connector says C and D on it also.

The other page with the 2 charts on it is also confusing to me in some of the same ways. Where it says pin BA5 and the action to move the a/c presure sensor to terminal B im not understanding where pin BA5 is coming from and where terminal B for the a/c is and so on. The only part i dont get about the lat part again is where pin A-F are? I feel like im missing something because so many others have done this with out any problem but im just not understanding some of these things.

Finally when doing the repinning thats just with the fiero connectors but what do i need to tie in from the yellow one? Im not running an egr on this motor so that is something i dont need for parts and dont need to wire. Thanks for any help, andrew.

edited because i figured some stuff out but still have questions



Please go back and read this ENTIRE thread. All of your questions have been addressed earlier in this thread.


BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #680, 08-18-2008 08:35 AM
      Hey Darth the chip that came with my partial KFG kit has one of your chips. Chris Schoope turbo is written on the back of the Sinister Perf chip and v1.0. Can you give me some information on what its tuned for? I sent you an email about this days ago but I guess you missed it. Its pretty important since I hope to start driving it today.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #681, 08-18-2008 05:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by BV MotorSports:

Hey Darth the chip that came with my partial KFG kit has one of your chips. Chris Schoope turbo is written on the back of the Sinister Perf chip and v1.0. Can you give me some information on what its tuned for? I sent you an email about this days ago but I guess you missed it. Its pretty important since I hope to start driving it today.



I did get your email but I was out of town attending the Heartland Fieros car show this weekend. I just got back late last night so it may be a little while before I get caught up on the emails. I will respond to the email you sent.

-ryan


BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #682, 08-18-2008 09:10 PM
      No worries, I just got the car running last night. The EGR delete (per your email) explains a few things. Thanks for getting back to me so fast. You could of just sold me another chip even though the set ups are nearly identical. Good on ya man. I love honest vendors!



3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #683, 08-22-2008 09:06 PM
      i got a 86 gt do i need an 88ecm tray? where can i get one?

Mister MSG #684, 08-23-2008 12:27 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt: i got a 86 gt do i need an 88ecm tray? where can i get one?


87-88 ECM tray from a 4cyl. compare to the pics I've posted on P.17
Just post something in the Mall and someone will have it

[This message has been edited by Mister (edited 08-23-2008).]

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #685, 08-23-2008 05:23 PM
      HELP ok i asked this question before and now its confusing me.
ok so im swiching over the pins and if says move pin A1 to pin BA11 so whitch pin do i install it in B11 or A11???? i see the letters on the 7730 plugs but there are none that are BA they go A B C D E F no dubble letters?

an anwser today would be awsome. thanks


mtownfiero (andrewj592@aol.com) MSG #686, 08-23-2008 06:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

HELP ok i asked this question before and now its confusing me.
ok so im swiching over the pins and if says move pin A1 to pin BA11 so whitch pin do i install it in B11 or A11???? i see the letters on the 7730 plugs but there are none that are BA they go A B C D E F no dubble letters?

an anwser today would be awsome. thanks


B is for the black connector and then what ever pin it goes to. G is for the green or yellow connector whichever yours is.



3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #687, 08-23-2008 09:36 PM
      WOW that actuly makes sence duh lol thanks for the help

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #688, 08-24-2008 01:04 AM
      got it now i just got to figure out the knocksensor wire where do i remove it from????? and ect

funny i deleted 4 wires

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 08-24-2008).]

americasfuture2k MSG #689, 08-24-2008 04:05 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

funny i deleted 4 wires



send my brother, jon a pm. he could probably help you out a lot. he helps me out a lot on his fiero he gave me. er merlot566jka



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #690, 08-24-2008 09:14 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:
got it now i just got to figure out the knocksensor wire where do i remove it from????? and ect


The single knock sensor wire is an additional wire since the Fiero did not have one. I did the 3.4L pushrod engine swap so I used the knock sensor wire and connector that came on the 3.4L engine. Do you have the knock sensor wire and connector from the donor car? It plugs into YD9 which is the Yellow 32 pin connector, side D, pin 9. I'm guessing you got the above answer on BA11 which is the Black 24 pin connector, side A, pin 11. The other Black connector is 32 pin, sides C and D.

On my swap I ended up deleting several wires too. Stuff like EGR.


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #691, 08-24-2008 11:03 PM
      ok so im not as close as i thought.

D5 tan / blk est bypass move to BC7 must be disconnected to set base timing, see note1 below
note1: A single wire weatherpack connector (similar to what is used for the O2 sensor) must be wired into this circuit so the circuit can be disconnected in order to put the ignition system into base timing mode so the base timing can be set using a timing light.

where do i install the wheather pack connector?

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 08-25-2008).]

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #692, 08-25-2008 02:49 AM
      ok found som information that helps

this shows the location of some conectors notice the C203



im not sure if this is any help i think i only got 2 of these boxes?

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 08-25-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #693, 08-25-2008 12:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

ok so im not as close as i thought.

D5 tan / blk est bypass move to BC7 must be disconnected to set base timing, see note1 below
note1: A single wire weatherpack connector (similar to what is used for the O2 sensor) must be wired into this circuit so the circuit can be disconnected in order to put the ignition system into base timing mode so the base timing can be set using a timing light.

where do i install the wheather pack connector?




You can put the single wire weatherpak connector in the bypass wire out by the distributor or inside the car by the ECM; your choice. Just remember it needs to be disconnected when you set base distributor ignition timing (puts ECM in set timing mode). Now if you are going to put this connector inside the car near the ECM, then you don't need a weatherpak connector; you could just use male/female blade connectors that can be crimped on which can be purchased at any auto parts store. I strongly recommned the use of sealed weatherpak connectors in the engine compartment to keep the connection from corroding since it will be exposed to the elements out there.

Concerning the knock sensor, if you read my wiring instructions it will tell you that you can actually use one of the Fiero EGR wires for this circuit and just tap into that wire out in the engine compartment to run down to your knock sensor -- will save you the trouble of having to add another wire to the harness. You will end up doing the same for another Fiero EGR wire to hook up the cooling fan to ECM control (also explained in the wiring instruction .pdf).

If you do this swap and don't use the digital EGR and don't hook up the electronic EVAP control solenoid, you should still end up having to add about 2 ground wires to the existing Fiero wiring harness. These two additional grounds are INJECTOR DRIVER grounds that connect the ECM to the engine block. Somebody earlier in this thread did this swap and forgot to hook these additional grounds up which resulted in a NO START condition. So make sure you don't skip this step or you will have issues.

-ryan


fieroluke (o.scholz@gmx.net) MSG #694, 08-27-2008 08:52 AM
      Hi,

this is an interesting upgrade indeed...

I would be looking to realtime update capabilities using a flash instead of EPROM, also through modifying the communication protocol (download without EPROM burning is so nice...)
I found the schematics on the web, so this seems doable, but I have not found a disassembly yet. Before I have to start from scratch, I'm sure someone has a (commented?) disassembly. Is that so? I have searched the web, but haven't come up with any results (I didn't search intensively though, I admit).

Anyone?

Best regards,

Oliver



3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #695, 08-28-2008 05:28 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroluke:

Hi,

this is an interesting upgrade indeed...

I would be looking to realtime update capabilities using a flash instead of EPROM, also through modifying the communication protocol (download without EPROM burning is so nice...)
I found the schematics on the web, so this seems doable, but I have not found a disassembly yet. Before I have to start from scratch, I'm sure someone has a (commented?) disassembly. Is that so? I have searched the web, but haven't come up with any results (I didn't search intensively though, I admit).

Anyone?

Best regards,

Oliver



step one take it apart
step two rewire with diagram
step three put it back together

lol


fieroluke (o.scholz@gmx.net) MSG #696, 08-28-2008 06:44 AM
      By "disassembly" I don't mean taking apart the ECM unit of course, I was talking about the source code for the program contained inside the ECM.

-Oliver



Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #697, 08-29-2008 10:47 PM
      ok, I just completed my 7730 conversion - (that took forever - my fault though - too many projects) and I have a strange issue now.

my tempurature gauge doesn't work now??? Any thoughts?

thanks

Matt


Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #698, 08-30-2008 02:22 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Madess:

ok, I just completed my 7730 conversion - (that took forever - my fault though - too many projects) and I have a strange issue now.

my tempurature gauge doesn't work now??? Any thoughts?

thanks

Matt


well, the temp gauge wire does not get changed in anyway for the 7730 swap
follow the wires, make sure its plugged in good, maybe test with a dummy resistor


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #699, 09-01-2008 02:58 AM
      finaly got the inside back together.


Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #700, 09-01-2008 08:39 PM
      Darth, I finally got my 7730 conversion done with your chip (my fault I took so long, not yours). I am having some issues with WOT, which I use a lot because I am a psycho. Could I come up one day and have you tune the car? Do you have time, or should we do the remote thing, and I send you some number. If you would rather take this off list, just use my list email and let me know.

Thanks.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #701, 09-01-2008 11:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Madess:

Darth, I finally got my 7730 conversion done with your chip (my fault I took so long, not yours). I am having some issues with WOT, which I use a lot because I am a psycho. Could I come up one day and have you tune the car? Do you have time, or should we do the remote thing, and I send you some number. If you would rather take this off list, just use my list email and let me know.

Thanks.


Please contact me via email about this issue at sp1@gmtuners.com

thanks.

-ryan



87_special MSG #702, 09-02-2008 01:04 AM
      I'm having problems wiring my cooling fan to be controlled by the ecm. I ran a wire from GE8 pin to D1 Cooling fan request (c500) wire like the instructions said. My fan still didnt work so I just hooked the fan request wire to a toggle switch and grounded the other side to complete the circuit. This seems to work for now but I'd like the ecm to control the fan.

So my question is: Did I wire something incorrectly? Does the GE8 pin on the 7730 provide voltage or ground. I'd really like to figure this out. Everything else works like it should and the car runs great. The coolant temp guage even works.

-Joseph


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #703, 09-02-2008 01:59 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 87_special:

I'm having problems wiring my cooling fan to be controlled by the ecm. I ran a wire from GE8 pin to D1 Cooling fan request (c500) wire like the instructions said. My fan still didnt work so I just hooked the fan request wire to a toggle switch and grounded the other side to complete the circuit. This seems to work for now but I'd like the ecm to control the fan.

So my question is: Did I wire something incorrectly? Does the GE8 pin on the 7730 provide voltage or ground. I'd really like to figure this out. Everything else works like it should and the car runs great. The coolant temp guage even works.

-Joseph


GE8 on the 7730 ECM is the cooling fan relay control driver; the ECM GROUNDs this circuit to turn the relay/fan on.

If you ground the wire you ran out to terminal D1 of the C500 connector and the fan comes on, but won't come on when hooked to the ECM, then either you have a connection problem at the ECM electrical connector, the ECM itself is bad, or the ECM isn't actually commanding the fan to turn on (due to not high enough coolant temperature read, coolant temp sensor issue, something in the chip programming, etc etc etc).

NOTE: the ECM may not command the radiator fan on unless the engine is running; but IIRC, these computers should activate the coolant fan to run with the key on but engine off if you short terminals A and B of the ALDL connector (like you would do to flash trouble codes thru the check engine light). If you short the ALDL and the fan runs, then the ECM's fan output driver is working and something else is causing the ECM not to activate the fan relay when you want it to.


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #704, 09-02-2008 05:24 AM
      hey i found a C500 diagram its the connector next to the stock battery location.

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 09-02-2008).]

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #705, 09-02-2008 05:26 AM
      so i wire my shift light to the white wire in C3 on the C500?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #706, 09-02-2008 01:06 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

so i wire my shift light to the white wire in C3 on the C500?


If you have an aftermarket shift light that works off a stock GM type tach signal then YES.



3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #707, 09-02-2008 09:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

so i wire my shift light to the white wire in C3 on the C500?

is this the same white wire going into the coil?



3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #708, 09-02-2008 09:48 PM
      found another diagram for us that go ummmmm do i cut this one???

you can remove the cold start and the fan swich. after the 7730 swap.

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 09-02-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #709, 09-03-2008 02:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

is this the same white wire going into the coil?


YES


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #710, 09-08-2008 12:52 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
You can put the single wire weatherpak connector in the bypass wire out by the distributor or inside the car by the ECM; your choice. Just remember it needs to be disconnected when you set base distributor ignition timing (puts ECM in set timing mode). Now if you are going to put this connector inside the car near the ECM, then you don't need a weatherpak connector; you could just use male/female blade connectors that can be crimped on which can be purchased at any auto parts store. I strongly recommned the use of sealed weatherpak connectors in the engine compartment to keep the connection from corroding since it will be exposed to the elements out there.

Concerning the knock sensor, if you read my wiring instructions it will tell you that you can actually use one of the Fiero EGR wires for this circuit and just tap into that wire out in the engine compartment to run down to your knock sensor -- will save you the trouble of having to add another wire to the harness. You will end up doing the same for another Fiero EGR wire to hook up the cooling fan to ECM control (also explained in the wiring instruction .pdf).

If you do this swap and don't use the digital EGR and don't hook up the electronic EVAP control solenoid, you should still end up having to add about 2 ground wires to the existing Fiero wiring harness. These two additional grounds are INJECTOR DRIVER grounds that connect the ECM to the engine block. Somebody earlier in this thread did this swap and forgot to hook these additional grounds up which resulted in a NO START condition. So make sure you don't skip this step or you will have issues.

-ryan


OK what wire by the distributor im not sure what wire i need to put the weather pac on. any one with a picture?



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #711, 09-08-2008 02:01 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:


OK what wire by the distributor im not sure what wire i need to put the weather pac on. any one with a picture?


There is a tan wire with a black stripe that goes to the ignition module's 4-way connector. This is the bypass wire, and it needs to be disconnected from the ECM so base timing can be set.


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #712, 09-08-2008 03:34 PM
      thank you

americasfuture2k MSG #713, 09-09-2008 08:45 AM
      hey darth, i havent gotten around finding that short due to the weather mostly. but jon was talking about it like he was expecting it to happen. he said its from the angle of the injectors on this setup and their proximity to the UIM. he said he delt with that problem too. so i get to dig in and find it. and im thinking of ways to keep the insulation from being worn down again.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #714, 09-09-2008 12:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by americasfuture2k:

hey darth, i havent gotten around finding that short due to the weather mostly. but jon was talking about it like he was expecting it to happen. he said its from the angle of the injectors on this setup and their proximity to the UIM. he said he delt with that problem too. so i get to dig in and find it. and im thinking of ways to keep the insulation from being worn down again.



That's cool -- you find it when you find it; there's no rush (unless you are in a hurry). But it would be a good idea to find that problem and get it fixed so you don't end up frying the ECM.

-ryan


americasfuture2k MSG #715, 09-11-2008 09:51 AM
      well i am in a rush sorta. im trying to get the car driveable to a carshow about an hour and a half away on the 21st. this wiring issue along with the rain is just one BIG interruption for getting more tuning done.

ok, nuff of me highjacking this thread, back to the 7730.



MulletproofMonk MSG #716, 09-11-2008 01:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:

The water jacket drain hole I spoke about earlier that you can install the knock sensor into is already threaded -- all you need to do is remove the plug and install the knock sensor -- torque sensor to 13 ft/lbs.


I guess I forgot to ask, should I put anything on the threads of the knock sensor or will it be okay just putting it in and setting the torque to 13 ft/lbs?

For the EGR plate, where do you get those bolts? Is there a specific length that I should get?

-Brian


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #717, 09-11-2008 02:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by MulletproofMonk:


I guess I forgot to ask, should I put anything on the threads of the knock sensor or will it be okay just putting it in and setting the torque to 13 ft/lbs?

For the EGR plate, where do you get those bolts? Is there a specific length that I should get?

-Brian


If you are installing the knock sensor into a coolant drain port, then you should use some liquid teflon paste thread sealant on the threads. DO NOT use teflon tape!

For the EGR plate bolts, your local hardware store should carry socket head (uses and allen wrench) metric cap screws. The thread diameter and pitch is 8mm x 1.25. Length is something you will need to measure; but if you extract the stock Fiero EGR studs, you can use that length + 5 or 10mm for the long bolts and I think the short ones for the EGR to adapter plate need to be 20mm. NOTE: bolt lengths given are measuring the length of the shank/threads and does not include the head of the bolt.

-ryan



3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #718, 09-11-2008 08:42 PM
      hey darth it starts up as long as i pour starter fluid in to it i sent you the bin file to adjust.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #719, 09-12-2008 02:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

hey darth it starts up as long as i pour starter fluid in to it i sent you the bin file to adjust.


Lets keep this in emails please; don't want to get off topic in this thread. Thanks...

-ryan


Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #720, 09-12-2008 03:12 PM
      After the 7730 conversion, I have a battery drain now? Can anyone think of anything from the conversion that would cause that, I am still trying to trace it down.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #721, 09-12-2008 04:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Madess:

After the 7730 conversion, I have a battery drain now? Can anyone think of anything from the conversion that would cause that, I am still trying to trace it down.


What you should do is get yourself an ammeter (most digital volt-ohm meters have this function) that can read up to 5 - 10amp loads. but also display amp draw in at least hundredths of an amp. Hook the ammeter between your battery pos terminal and the battery pos cable. The ammeter should show the amount of amps being drawn from the battery. Normal draw for most cars with on-board computers should be less than 0.300 amps if I remember correctly. If you see more than this, then you should start pulling fuses/disconnecting devices until you find which circuit is drawing a load.

I have seen ECMs go bad and cause this problem (they fail to completely shut down). This problem could also be caused by something being incorrectly wired.



americasfuture2k MSG #722, 09-15-2008 08:56 AM
      ok scratch my rush. jons somewhat sloppy wiring job for the 3500 w/ 7730 has turned in the other direction from good to WTF?? haha. fuel injection fuses randomly stopped popping, not sure how it all will work now, but i am going to test it all out after work. and i am currently building me a cleaner more practical 7730 conversion harness that will work on the 3500.

he had so many wires of the same color that it was hard to tell what was what when a problem arose. and then his method of connecting the wires was pretty bad too. IMO, it needs to be more than just twisted together and tapped a lil bit better. heat shrunk too. any tips for making a new harness? and the connections? i was thinking of twisting the wires together and soldering them, then covering the joints with liquid electrical tape, heat shrinking that, then covering it with electrical tape.

i guess thats the difference between an electronic tech and a mechanic. but he never intended to get rid of that car. so im going to build a harness i can understand.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #723, 09-15-2008 01:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by americasfuture2k:

ok scratch my rush. jons somewhat sloppy wiring job for the 3500 w/ 7730 has turned in the other direction from good to WTF?? haha. fuel injection fuses randomly stopped popping, not sure how it all will work now, but i am going to test it all out after work. and i am currently building me a cleaner more practical 7730 conversion harness that will work on the 3500.

he had so many wires of the same color that it was hard to tell what was what when a problem arose. and then his method of connecting the wires was pretty bad too. IMO, it needs to be more than just twisted together and tapped a lil bit better. heat shrunk too. any tips for making a new harness? and the connections? i was thinking of twisting the wires together and soldering them, then covering the joints with liquid electrical tape, heat shrinking that, then covering it with electrical tape.

i guess thats the difference between an electronic tech and a mechanic. but he never intended to get rid of that car. so im going to build a harness i can understand.


They make heat shrink tubing that has heat-activated adhesive sealer on the inside. When you heat the tubing up to shrink it, this "glue" activates and seals the connection. I use this stuff on critical connections or where connections are going to be subjected to exposure to moisture.

As far as the actual wiring connection, I strip off about 1/2 to 5/8" of the insulation on both wires I am connecting together. I then lay the wires end to end and overlap the stripped portions. I then twist them together as good as possible without producing a "bulk" area that the shrink tubing won't slide over. I then solder the connection and then slide the shrink tubing over that and apply heat to seal the connection.

-ryan


americasfuture2k MSG #724, 09-15-2008 03:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


They make heat shrink tubing that has heat-activated adhesive sealer on the inside. When you heat the tubing up to shrink it, this "glue" activates and seals the connection. I use this stuff on critical connections or where connections are going to be subjected to exposure to moisture.

As far as the actual wiring connection, I strip off about 1/2 to 5/8" of the insulation on both wires I am connecting together. I then lay the wires end to end and overlap the stripped portions. I then twist them together as good as possible without producing a "bulk" area that the shrink tubing won't slide over. I then solder the connection and then slide the shrink tubing over that and apply heat to seal the connection.

-ryan


i used some of that in the AIMD shop when i was stationed in corpus. but it was solder and not glue. is there any that is glue and solder? that would rock.

do you see any problems with the solder melting and the connections coming loose in the engine bay near the headers and/or the coolant lines?



americasfuture2k MSG #725, 09-16-2008 07:33 AM
      any suggestion for all of us on underhood tape? jon used some kind of heat sheilding that obviously wasnt ment for wiring harnesses. then wrapped in header wrap. didnt seem to work too well.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #726, 09-16-2008 02:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by americasfuture2k:


i used some of that in the AIMD shop when i was stationed in corpus. but it was solder and not glue. is there any that is glue and solder? that would rock.

do you see any problems with the solder melting and the connections coming loose in the engine bay near the headers and/or the coolant lines?


I've never had a solder joint melt in any engine compartment. But then again I do take steps to protect the wiring when near high heat sources such as the exhaust. The coolant lines don't get hot enough to melt solder.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #727, 09-16-2008 02:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by americasfuture2k:

any suggestion for all of us on underhood tape? jon used some kind of heat sheilding that obviously wasnt ment for wiring harnesses. then wrapped in header wrap. didnt seem to work too well.



You CAN use regular PVC electrical tape. But this stuff is usually only rated for 176degF max temps. So if you use it you should put wire loom over your connections/wires (which you should do anyway). There is higher temp electrical tape out there but it is pretty expensive. Personally I've never had a problem with the regulator electrical tape as long as I cover all my wires with wire loom.

Speaking of wire loom, make sure you get the good stuff (should have a green or blue stripe). The cheap stuff autozone sells will melt in the engine compartment. The stuff I use is rated to 275 deg F and is flame resistant. You can get this stuff as well as pretty much anything else you need for your electrical work here: http://www.wiringproducts.com/



americasfuture2k MSG #728, 09-16-2008 06:53 PM
      thanks for the link, and the many others you have provided me. maybe it was just jons way he taped everything up that has just had me worried about a lot of this. and we have been using that cheap loom from autozone. one section of it melted against the coolant line going to the motor.



pontiackid86 (phllyracer@aol.com) MSG #729, 09-16-2008 10:17 PM
      it its not to much to ask could you send me some instructions on how to do this?

americasfuture2k MSG #730, 09-17-2008 09:14 AM
      doesnt this ecm retain the shift up light? i would like mine to come on, and if it is programmable on when to come on, i would like it if possible to come on for economy and then under WOT for it to come on as a shift light at just a bit shy of my rev limiter. since my engine digs deep into the red on my tach. or to come on at a good point to shift according to my power band. i could go on and on for this but ill leave it alone until more information is gathered on my engine and if the shift light idea is possible on the 7730.

oh ryan, is that speedo circuit is required?



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #731, 09-17-2008 01:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by americasfuture2k:

doesnt this ecm retain the shift up light? i would like mine to come on, and if it is programmable on when to come on, i would like it if possible to come on for economy and then under WOT for it to come on as a shift light at just a bit shy of my rev limiter. since my engine digs deep into the red on my tach. or to come on at a good point to shift according to my power band. i could go on and on for this but ill leave it alone until more information is gathered on my engine and if the shift light idea is possible on the 7730.

oh ryan, is that speedo circuit is required?



The speedo circuit has been addressed earlier in this thread -- please go back and find it as it was explained in great detail what can be done with it.

Yes this ECM can control the upshift light. I do know it works at part throttle but I'm not sure if the tuning software I have can make it work at full throttle as you want it to -- I will have to look into that.

-ryan



americasfuture2k MSG #732, 09-17-2008 04:01 PM
      D'oh! ill look for the info.

another question. and im sure this one has been on a few peoples mind, where to get new wire of the same color code? I.E. blk/wht and others of that nature.



timgray (timgray.geo@yahoo.com) MSG #733, 09-17-2008 04:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by americasfuture2k:


i used some of that in the AIMD shop when i was stationed in corpus. but it was solder and not glue. is there any that is glue and solder? that would rock.

do you see any problems with the solder melting and the connections coming loose in the engine bay near the headers and/or the coolant lines?


Solder melts at above 500-700 degrees depending on mixture of lead to tin. So finding a heat shrink with solder and glue willl be impossible. Solder melting near the engine is a non issue unless the car catches fire or the wire is laying directly in contact with an exaust pipe or manifold.

i strongly suggest Silver bearing solder due to it's higher corrosion resistance. and NEVER EVER use plumbing solder on electrical connections. use Electronic/wire solder with a non reactive flux. Plumbing solder has an ACID flux that will corrode that connection.

If you do not want to solder you can use these.
http://happyterminals.com/i...p?cPath=21_39_96_109
I use them on boats, bikes, cars. they work great IF you get a very good crimper. Using the crappy crimper you get at an auto store will not work. I use a ratcheting crimper. when you heat hem up they shrink down and ooze the sealing goo as well. making a very good connection.

Note: that link also has weatherpak connectors. If you want anything to disconnect, use those. they work awesome.

[This message has been edited by timgray (edited 09-17-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #734, 09-17-2008 05:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by timgray:


If you do not want to solder you can use these.
http://happyterminals.com/i...p?cPath=21_39_96_109
I use them on boats, bikes, cars. they work great IF you get a very good crimper. Using the crappy crimper you get at an auto store will not work. I use a ratcheting crimper. when you heat hem up they shrink down and ooze the sealing goo as well. making a very good connection.



Those work great but they are bulky. So if you are making a lot of wiring connections in a small area and try to use these types of connectors, you are going to end up with a pretty big bulk you have to deal with. BUT, these are very useful when trying to splice large wires such as the 8-10 ga size wires that run to the alternator and starter solenoid.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #735, 09-17-2008 05:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by americasfuture2k:

D'oh! ill look for the info.

another question. and im sure this one has been on a few peoples mind, where to get new wire of the same color code? I.E. blk/wht and others of that nature.



Good luck with that. I haven't been able to find resonably priced "automotive grade" wiring except at the junkyard. I would stay away from the stuff autozone and the other parts stores sell because the last time I used this stuff the insulation on it had a relatively low melting point. The automotive grade wiring's insulation does not melt when you are soldering wires together, so it's pretty good stuff.


rjblaze (rjblaze@verizon.net) MSG #736, 09-17-2008 05:55 PM
      Try painlesswiring.com for auto-grade wire. I have used their stuff in the past and never had any problems. I do believe Jeg's sells their wire also.

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #737, 09-17-2008 06:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by rjblaze:

Try painlesswiring.com for auto-grade wire. I have used their stuff in the past and never had any problems. I do believe Jeg's sells their wire also.


found prices on it here: http://www.shopatron.com/in...02.0.6014.8463.0.0.0



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #738, 09-17-2008 06:08 PM
      I would suggest using wire from another wiring harness. When I swapped in the V6, I kept the old 4-cyl wiring harness for this reason. It came in handy during the 7730 ECM swap.

I also wanted to ask about something. On the 7730 ECM, pin D12 is labeled "A/C pressure switch signal". And in the description it says "optional; hook up to high side A/C pressure switch; activates coolant fan output when A/C press is hi". Just to be thorough, I decided to hook up the output from the low-side pressure switch on my V5 compressor to this wire. That's the switch that activates the A/C clutch when the refrigerant pressure is high enough. Unfortunately, this confused the ECM. The ECM thought that the A/C was on all the time, even when it was off... which resulted in a high (and unstable) idle with the A/C off. After disconnecting that wire, everything worked fine. The radiator fan comes on with the A/C anyway, so the fan request line was redundant.

Since the fan request line is redundant, I don't plan to re-attach it. But I'm just curious what I was doing wrong. And maybe by posting this, I can save someone else from having to deal with this.


americasfuture2k MSG #739, 09-17-2008 11:41 PM
      one last thing before i go hit hay, how do you remove these kind of pins? i dont want to tug so hard it rips the wire out. i didnt find anything from searching.

http://i39.photobucket.com/...k/Fiero/DSC02755.jpg



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #740, 09-18-2008 11:05 AM
      First of all, you have to open the back end of the connector, so the wires can slide out. Then, you insert a special tool (shaped like a hollow tube) over the end of the pin to release the tabs. If you can find some tubing (it'll need to be metal or hard plastic) in the right size, that may work too.

Here's what the special tool looks like: LINK (near the bottom of the page)


MulletproofMonk MSG #741, 09-18-2008 01:24 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:
If you are installing the knock sensor into a coolant drain port, then you should use some liquid teflon paste thread sealant on the threads. DO NOT use teflon tape!
-ryan


Curious about something. I bought the knock sensor and it has a dried red/brown paste on it. Is this some kind of sealer?

-Brian


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #742, 09-18-2008 01:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by MulletproofMonk:


Curious about something. I bought the knock sensor and it has a dried red/brown paste on it. Is this some kind of sealer?

-Brian


Yes, that is sealer. If your knock sensor already came with this on it, then you don't need to apply any more sealant.



americasfuture2k MSG #743, 09-18-2008 05:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

First of all, you have to open the back end of the connector, so the wires can slide out. Then, you insert a special tool (shaped like a hollow tube) over the end of the pin to release the tabs. If you can find some tubing (it'll need to be metal or hard plastic) in the right size, that may work too.

Here's what the special tool looks like: LINK (near the bottom of the page)


yea i know that. i undid it and they didnt come right out like i figured they would. if i can find a newer smaller connector with the right amount of pins and some new crimp on pins, i will just use that instead.



3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #744, 09-19-2008 12:37 PM
      im checking my wires after the swap to make sure i got them done rite.
so i made this thought id share.


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #745, 09-19-2008 04:55 PM
      hey i think i found the problem pin BC12 had a brake in it where it was spliced into BC11 WOULD THIS HAVE CAUSED A NO RUN issue?
Be sure to check these factory splices eveyone.
(edit-- it wasent the problem but good to catch)

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 09-20-2008).]

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #746, 09-20-2008 09:53 PM
      its alive ......its alive lololololololololol

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 09-20-2008).]

americasfuture2k MSG #747, 09-21-2008 01:14 AM
      nevermind, big obvious screw up on my part. i need coffee. or sleep.

EDIT: ok, i had my sleep. then a dr pepper. im confused on the A/C pressure sensor terminals. what does this connector look like? it looks like it needs to be a 3 pin connector, but the only A/C ones i can identify are two single wire terminals and a 2 wire terminal.



americasfuture2k MSG #748, 09-21-2008 11:13 PM
      well the ac isnt important at the moment since i need to figure out how to convert this wiring to the newer compressors. but here is a picture of the 7730 harnes conversion finished. this comes this nicely from taking your time.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.



Lancealpha MSG #749, 09-22-2008 12:13 AM
      Hey ive been reading this for a long time and i was wondering are there any ecm swaps that would be for OBD2 and that could run the 4T60E or similar electronic trany as well as DIS. It dosn't need to be OBD2 per say but i would like the tuneability of it.



americasfuture2k MSG #750, 09-22-2008 08:23 AM
      ill let ryan step in for this subject of OBD II. you will understand the reason for the choice of the 7730 on my motor rather than a OBD II ECM that would work for this motor.



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #751, 09-22-2008 12:19 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Lancealpha:

Hey ive been reading this for a long time and i was wondering are there any ecm swaps that would be for OBD2 and that could run the 4T60E or similar electronic trany as well as DIS. It dosn't need to be OBD2 per say but i would like the tuneability of it.



First off OBD2 computers will only work with DIS type ignition systems; and the engine must also have the additional crank sensor that is behind the crank balancer as well as the cam sensor. If your engine does not have these items, you cannot use an OBD2 computer. To answer your question, yes, the OBD2 computer will control a 4T60E transmission. I have programming available for a 3100 V6 4T60-E application that already has VATS disabled from the factory (1998 Grand Prix).

Newer OBD2 computers are compatible with the 4T40-E/4T45-E and 4T65-E transmissions; but these newer computers have VATS security that cannot be easily bypassed. These newer V6 computers that use PassKey 3, PassKey 3+, and PassLock VATS systems CANNOT be reprogrammed to disable these security systems with the tuning software that is currently available; I've tried.

Now there is another OBD1 computer option available if you want to use a 4T60-E transmission. The 1993 Lumina (and other W-body cars) was available with a 3.1L DIS V6 engine and a 4T60-E transmission. The computer used in these cars used the $DF code mask (same as 91-93 3.4 DOHC) and did NOT use the additional crank sensor nor a cam sensor. This is an underhood type computer (like the 1227727) but still had a removable chip. You MUST have DIS on your engine if you want to use this computer.

-ryan

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 09-22-2008).]

Lancealpha MSG #752, 09-22-2008 12:36 PM
      Awseom as soon as i have enough post to give +s ur definitly getting one!!!

Oreif (kopielski1714@wowway.com) MSG #753, 09-22-2008 12:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by americasfuture2k:


i used some of that in the AIMD shop when i was stationed in corpus. but it was solder and not glue. is there any that is glue and solder? that would rock.



Yes a Fusion Solder Splice has the solder and the "glue" at each end:

http://www.calcentron.com/P...der_heat_shrink.html

There are other companies (like 3M) that have similar splices.


americasfuture2k MSG #754, 09-22-2008 01:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Oreif:


Yes a Fusion Solder Splice has the solder and the "glue" at each end:

http://www.calcentron.com/P...der_heat_shrink.html

There are other companies (like 3M) that have similar splices.




im such a nerd......

your getting mad kudos, gold stars, or a few A+'s for that. and other useful info i have gathered from you before.


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #755, 09-22-2008 04:02 PM
      darth you got an e-mail.

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #756, 09-22-2008 05:22 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by americasfuture2k: im confused on the A/C pressure sensor terminals. what does this connector look like? it looks like it needs to be a 3 pin connector, but the only A/C ones i can identify are two single wire terminals and a 2 wire terminal.

Which A/C compressor do you have?


americasfuture2k MSG #757, 09-22-2008 10:34 PM
      no idea, the harness is from a 86 4spd v6. and i have whatever compressor comes on the 06 malibu 3500 LX9

ive been doing a lot of searching and i think i have the compressor model number. its a AC Delco 15-21135.



Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #758, 09-23-2008 10:26 AM
      No wonder the wiring connectors don't match... LOL. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with that engine. So I can't help you with that. You could try the 60degreeV6 forum.

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #759, 09-23-2008 10:55 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


Good luck with that. I haven't been able to find resonably priced "automotive grade" wiring except at the junkyard. I would stay away from the stuff autozone and the other parts stores sell because the last time I used this stuff the insulation on it had a relatively low melting point. The automotive grade wiring's insulation does not melt when you are soldering wires together, so it's pretty good stuff.


Here you go by the foot, haven't ordered any yet because I'm not sure what gauge to get for best current flow to and from sensors without over doing it;

http://www.route66supply.com/store/page16.html


87_special MSG #760, 09-24-2008 12:00 AM
      Hey Darth,

I recently did the 7730 ecm swap with my 3100/4t60E (manually shifted) swap. I spliced in the correct connector and changed the vss road speed constant in the chip(24000ppm) so the ecm reads the correct speed. My problem is that the speedometer is way off. At about 20mph the speedo is pegged. Do you have any idea to fix this problem so my speedo works accuately?

Do I need this "Speedometer signal convertor" from FieroAddiction? http://www.fieroaddiction.c...ath=2&products_id=12

Thanks,
Joseph


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #761, 09-24-2008 12:50 AM
      ok so i was goofing around on the internet and i found this site called http://www.code59.org/ its a tunning site for the GMC syclone and $58 code running vehicals.
hey darth the 59code is a modified $58 code that makes it easyer to tune i was wondering if this would be better for my 3.4l turbo? check it out.


americasfuture2k MSG #762, 09-24-2008 12:20 PM
      oh wow, and maybe that could help tune my engine too! god that would be so sweet.

[This message has been edited by americasfuture2k (edited 09-24-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #763, 09-24-2008 03:24 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

ok so i was goofing around on the internet and i found this site called http://www.code59.org/ its a tunning site for the GMC syclone and $58 code running vehicals.
hey darth the 59code is a modified $58 code that makes it easyer to tune i was wondering if this would be better for my 3.4l turbo? check it out.



I just recently discovered the existance of the code59 programming and have been doing some research on it. On the surface it looks like somebody took the $58 code mask (GMC Syclone/Typhoon) programming and converted it to work with a 3-bar map sensor so they could run more boost. They also set it up to work directly with a wideband O2 sensor (if needed) as well as disabled a lot of the factory tables in the $58 programming (which they say can be re-activated if you wish).

Basically to get down to the brass tacks here, the code59 programming would be a good choice for anyone doing one or more of the following:

-Needs to run more boost than 15psi and wants to have the ability to change fuel/spark above 15psi (although you could safely run 20psi of boost with a 2-bar program if you tuned it right)
-Wants to have the ability to hook the WideBand O2 sensor directly up to the ECM.
-Wants to do their OWN tuning.

I have not worked with the code59 programming on any vehicle I've had here at the shop yet. So I am reluctant to do ANY mail order tunes for anyone running this code just because there is bound to be quite a bit of tuning work involved in just getting it running right (or at least good enough to drive). Therefore if you want to run the code59 programming you will either need to bring me your car so I can tune it in person or you will need to get all the hardware/software so you can do the tuning yourself.


americasfuture2k MSG #764, 09-24-2008 03:28 PM
      hmm, so looks like its a no go for me. oh well, no loss.



Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #765, 09-24-2008 06:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

ok so i was goofing around on the internet and i found this site called http://www.code59.org/ its a tunning site for the GMC syclone and $58 code running vehicals.
hey darth the 59code is a modified $58 code that makes it easyer to tune i was wondering if this would be better for my 3.4l turbo? check it out.



I've mentioned this code a few times previously, the 58 code for a 3 bar MAP sensor has been around for a number of years now. It has been modified further to run DIS ignition systems and work in the Tunerpro software, it also appears to be a more cooperative code than the Turbo Grand Prix 8F code, having several examples from members using it posted for download with various different injector sizes.

Unless someone has modified it further, the TGP 8F code will not allow you to reach 15 psi before it kills the engine and depending on what software you use you may not see much more than 10 psi. More importantly to be most effective you must be able to adjust timing for the full range of boost you intend to run. This is why I plan to switch from 8F to Code59 along with the intent to run more than 15 psi. The individuals using it have had great success with it and have posted their tunes for downloading.

The ability to use wide band O2 sensors is a plus and there are other functions such as water/meth injection control currently attempting to be worked into the code as well.


87_special MSG #766, 09-24-2008 07:34 PM
      My question seems to have been overlooked since it was on the bottom of page 19. So I will ask agian.

 
quote
Originally posted by 87_special:

Hey Darth,

I recently did the 7730 ecm swap with my 3100/4t60E (manually shifted) swap. I spliced in the correct connector and changed the vss road speed constant in the chip(24000ppm) so the ecm reads the correct speed. My problem is that the speedometer is way off. At about 20mph the speedo is pegged. Do you have any idea to fix this problem so my speedo works accuately?

Do I need this "Speedometer signal convertor" from FieroAddiction? http://www.fieroaddiction.c...ath=2&products_id=12

Thanks,
Joseph




Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #767, 09-24-2008 07:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 87_special:

My question seems to have been overlooked since it was on the bottom of page 19. So I will ask agian.

I recently did the 7730 ecm swap with my 3100/4t60E (manually shifted) swap. I spliced in the correct connector and changed the vss road speed constant in the chip(24000ppm) so the ecm reads the correct speed. My problem is that the speedometer is way off. At about 20mph the speedo is pegged. Do you have any idea to fix this problem so my speedo works accuately?



Sorry, I must have missed this. What you need to do is make sure the Instrument Panel VSS Divisor constant is set to "128".


americasfuture2k MSG #768, 09-25-2008 09:57 AM
      here is a very interesting find that i came across in search for some engine bay wire.

http://www.americanhotrodso...ecm_harness_page.htm

2nd row down, on the right. pretty obvious....


87_special MSG #769, 09-26-2008 07:24 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


Sorry, I must have missed this. What you need to do is make sure the Instrument Panel VSS Divisor constant is set to "128".


I tried that already. That was the way I originally had it set up. I actually tried many different #s. It didnt make any difference if I put 0 or 9000. I don't know what to do. Do you think I need that "speedo convertor" from FieroAddiction?

-Joseph


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #770, 09-27-2008 12:40 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 87_special:


I tried that already. That was the way I originally had it set up. I actually tried many different #s. It didnt make any difference if I put 0 or 9000. I don't know what to do. Do you think I need that "speedo convertor" from FieroAddiction?

-Joseph


Ok well if you are running the Fiero speedo off the ECM then yes you need the Fiero speedo conversion circuit shown here: http://dtcc.cz28.com/fiero/fmods.htm



3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #771, 09-30-2008 12:22 AM
      e-mail sent

americasfuture2k MSG #772, 10-06-2008 09:22 PM
      if anyone is wanting to take their time on their harness for a motorswap, such as mine, and want to properly remove the pins from your weather pack connetors to untangle all the wires and run them to the proper lengths, then search ebay for "weather pack tool" minus the quotes. i just purchased a pin removal tool for 4 bux, 1.50 S & H. there are also new pin terminal kits on there. has everything you need to replace that you damaged in your attempts to remove the pins. including a crimper. there are also a few websites that contain this stuff at a slightly higher price. just google "gm weather pack pin removal tool" minus the quotes. or modify that search using different terms to end up with some other results.

here is my ebay search
http://shop.ebay.com/items/...moval+tool&_osacat=0

and here is my google search
http://www.google.com/searc...val+tool&btnG=Search



3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #773, 10-08-2008 03:03 PM
      hey darth ive decided to have the fiero dyno-tuned. and i just want to let every one on here know, that if they have a 3.4l PR and want to turbocharge it then i might have a sulution for qwick, painless, inexspencive turbo tunning.
and it could throw some more work to you as well darth. you might even want to get in on the deal


here is the link please read the hole thread.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F...HTML/095416.html#p16

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 10-08-2008).]

3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #774, 10-08-2008 10:08 PM
      having problem with the injectors
only the front 3 are working.
where does the single green wire from the ecu split into 2 for bolth sides does any one know?
if you have the wireing harnes off of a car or your car, could you messure from the connector (on the injector side) to the factory slpice? so i dont have to rip out my compleate harness please.
also could you messure for bolth factory splices? i should check the negitive to

[This message has been edited by 3.6lvvt6spdgt (edited 10-08-2008).]

americasfuture2k MSG #775, 10-09-2008 08:08 AM
      once i get home, i can let you know that. i have my entire harness separated by sensor depending on which side of the engine. no loom or anything on it right now. i dont recall any sort of splice that it runs into. i believe that it is all seperate. check for a break in the wiring.



Pyrthian (pyrthian@yahoo.com) MSG #776, 10-09-2008 10:12 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by 3.6lvvt6spdgt:

having problem with the injectors
only the front 3 are working.
where does the single green wire from the ecu split into 2 for bolth sides does any one know?
if you have the wireing harnes off of a car or your car, could you messure from the connector (on the injector side) to the factory slpice? so i dont have to rip out my compleate harness please.
also could you messure for bolth factory splices? i should check the negitive to



if I remember right, it was about 18" from the ECM connector on mine. and, not only that - they spliced it backwards. on the green line, they spliced in a blue wire,. and on the blue line, they spliced in a green wire.

I did in fact rip out the entire harness - and unravel the whole thing. but, I was also doing wiring fixes for my auto to manual swap I did many years ago, and removing all the wiring for the A/C, and added DIS.


3.6lvvt6spdgt MSG #777, 10-09-2008 12:57 PM
      cool thanks guys


Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #778, 10-09-2008 02:35 PM
      ok, everything is working on my 7730, but I am getting a code 32, which I looked up, and it is the digital egr, does this mean my egr is bad, or the wiring I hooked up is having a problem?

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #779, 10-09-2008 03:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Madess:

ok, everything is working on my 7730, but I am getting a code 32, which I looked up, and it is the digital egr, does this mean my egr is bad, or the wiring I hooked up is having a problem?


Could be either a wiring problem or something wrong with your EGR valve. Best thing to do is check the connections between the EGR valve and the ECM. Also make sure the EGR valve connector is getting power to it at the correct terminal with the key on. This code could also be caused if you have another problem with the engine such as a vacuum leak.

Let us know what you find.

-ryan



Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #780, 10-10-2008 07:41 AM
      It only comes on occasionally.

Like the whole ride to work today it was fine...

Correct me if I am wrong, but if it was a wiring issue, it would be on all the time?

So I am thinking the egr valve itself is a problem, or a vacuum leak is definitely a possibility, I need to clean things up in the engine compartment.


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #781, 10-10-2008 02:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Madess:

It only comes on occasionally.

Like the whole ride to work today it was fine...

Correct me if I am wrong, but if it was a wiring issue, it would be on all the time?

So I am thinking the egr valve itself is a problem, or a vacuum leak is definitely a possibility, I need to clean things up in the engine compartment.


The EGR diagnostic does not run continuously. Sometimes it will only run when you are decellerating from a highway speed. So even if you had an electrical problem the light may not come on a stay on all the time.

-ryan


Madess (madess@fuse.net) MSG #782, 10-17-2008 11:16 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Darth Fiero:


The EGR diagnostic does not run continuously. Sometimes it will only run when you are decellerating from a highway speed. So even if you had an electrical problem the light may not come on a stay on all the time.

-ryan


Ah, it does happen when decelarating or driving slow, so I will check the egr and vacuum leaks.


americasfuture2k MSG #783, 10-19-2008 07:45 PM
      how many connections go to the power distribution block right under the C500? how many are on the 11mm nut one and how many are on the 10mm nut one? how many seperate grounds are there total on all of this after the conversion? any way to tell if the ecm is working? i think i may have fried mine, how? i have no idea, if its getting power and ground.



americasfuture2k MSG #784, 10-22-2008 07:28 PM
      ok, so on the secondary harness connections, pin GF14, gry/red, is A/C pressure sensor signal, connect to A/C pressure sensor terminal C

what is terminal C? on what pressure sensor?



Primaris MSG #785, 10-23-2008 12:56 PM
      TLDR

Why go with a GM ECU over say a MegaSquirt 2?



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #786, 10-23-2008 01:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by americasfuture2k:

how many connections go to the power distribution block right under the C500? how many are on the 11mm nut one and how many are on the 10mm nut one? how many seperate grounds are there total on all of this after the conversion? any way to tell if the ecm is working? i think i may have fried mine, how? i have no idea, if its getting power and ground.


The smaller stud has the 2 fusable links connected to it that power up the entire car (except the ECM). The larger stud has the alternator charge wire, battery connection, and ECM power wire connected to it. Both studs are connected together by a shunt (that is actually part of the ring terminal for the charge/ECM wires).


Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #787, 10-23-2008 01:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by americasfuture2k:

ok, so on the secondary harness connections, pin GF14, gry/red, is A/C pressure sensor signal, connect to A/C pressure sensor terminal C

what is terminal C? on what pressure sensor?



Ok, for cars running a distributor and using the $88 F-body V6 mask, the only A/C related pressure monitoring device is a high side pressure switch that is normally closed (opens with high pressure) and connects to terminal BD12. You can simply ground the wire going to ECM terminal BD12 if you already have some other means of compressor protection wired up (stock Fiero A/C system should already have this).

For DIS cars, there is an A/C pressure sensor used. This sensor mounts on the high-side A/C line and reports actual pressure readings back to the ECM. The sensor has 3 terminals, A = Sensor Ground Input (BB5), B = Sensor Signal Output (GF14), C = 5v Reference Input (BA4). If you are using a programming code mask that requires a 3-wire A/C pressure sensor and you don't hook one up to the ECM, then the ECM will never be able to control the A/C clutch relay. This means the ECM won't know when your A/C is turning on (even if you feed it an A/C request signal) and this could cause stalling and idle problems.
(revised 8-14-2014 to correct some information)

-ryan

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 08-14-2014).]

americasfuture2k MSG #788, 10-23-2008 05:47 PM
      hmm, so to complicate things, wonder if that will be needed fo my ac compressor?



Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #789, 10-23-2008 06:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by americasfuture2k:

hmm, so to complicate things, wonder if that will be needed fo my ac compressor?



no, you won't need it as long as your fan still turns on when you select A/C on the HVAC control panel.

[This message has been edited by Darth Fiero (edited 10-23-2008).]

americasfuture2k MSG #790, 10-23-2008 08:52 PM
      rock on, thanks for the info. clears that up.



fieroluke (o.scholz@gmx.net) MSG #791, 10-27-2008 11:39 AM
      Hi everyone.

I have another question regarding the EVAP solenoid/charcoal canister.

If I understand it correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong) there are three lines going to the stock Fiero evap canister.

#1) is the vapor line from the tank - this one stays as it is in the conversion, so I'll mention this one no more
#2) is the larger diameter vacuum line: this is where the engine purges/sucks the fuel vapors from the canister
#3) is the smaller diameter vacuum line: this one controls the valve in the canister and opens when vacuum is applied.

Now, in an early posting on this topic Darth Fiero wrote that an electrical (ECM controlled) solenoid is added in the
vacuum line. I assume this is the larger diameter purge line (#2).

But what about the smaller diameter control line (#3)? If it's left open or capped, doesn't the vacuum controlled valve on the canister
stay closed then? In effect, it wouldn't matter if the solenoid opens, the valve on top of the can stays closed anyway.
Or does the control line (#3) stay connected? In that case I gain ECM control of the canister, but keep both vacuum lines,
one of which I'd love to lose. Or am I mistaken regarding the operation of the system?

Best regards

Oliver

[This message has been edited by fieroluke (edited 10-27-2008).]

Darth Fiero (sinister1880@gmail.com) MSG #792, 10-27-2008 12:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroluke:

Hi everyone.

I have another question regarding the EVAP solenoid/charcoal canister.

If I understand it correctly (please correct me if I'm wrong) there are three lines going to the stock Fiero evap canister.

#1) is the vapor line from the tank - this one stays as it is in the conversion, so I'll mention this one no more
#2) is the larger diameter vacuum line: this is where the engine purges/sucks the fuel vapors from the canister
#3) is the smaller diameter vacuum line: this one controls the valve in the canister and opens when vacuum is applied.

Now, in an early posting on this topic Darth Fiero wrote that an electrical (ECM controlled) solenoid is added in the
vacuum line. I assume this is the larger diameter purge line (#2).

But what about the smaller diameter control line (#3)? If it's left open or capped, doesn't the vacuum controlled valve on the canister
stay closed then? In effect, it wouldn't matter if the solenoid opens, the valve on top of the can stays closed anyway.
Or does the control line (#3) stay connected? In that case I gain ECM control of the canister, but keep both vacuum lines,
one of which I'd love to lose. Or am I mistaken regarding the operation of the system?

Best regards

Oliver



The small vacuum line that goes to the Fiero EVAP canister is connected to a ported vacuum source on the throttle body. This line only sees vacuum at part throttle; therefore the EVAP purge valve on the canister will only open and allow purge flow at part throttle. This is how GM controlled the flow of EVAP vapors from the canister to the engine without a computer-controlled solenoid.

In later years GM added the EVAP purge solenoid because they found they could purge the charcoal canister a little during idle and decelleration operation (the EVAP purge solenoid is under pulse-width-modulated control meaning it can be opened by small to large amounts depending on what the ECM wants; does not have to be full open or closed). Therefore better control could be attained over the EVAP system via use of an electronic purge solenoid.

When doing the 7730 conversion, I recommend disconnecting the small vacuum line from the ported vac port on the throttle body and plugging the port on the throttle body. Next, connect the small vacuum line coming from the EVAP canister together with the larger purge line going to the engine via a vacuum Tee. Now connect the remaining port on this Tee to the "can" port of the EVAP purge solenoid. The other port of the solenoid gets connected to the larger vacuum line coming from the engine that originally connected to the EVAP canister. The reason why I recommend hooking it up this way is because the ECM is going to expect some EVAP flow (when it commands the purge solenoid open) during times when that legacy mechanical ported vacuum control system would normally be closed. It's just best to let the ECM control it as intended.

IF you have already wired up your 7730 ECM swap without using the EVAP purge solenoid, don't worry. The EVAP purge strategy has very little to do (and little impact) with overall engine operation. And for the record, I do recommend leaving a functioning EVAP system on the car when doing an ECM or engine swap. This prevents the buildup of fuel vapors in the gas tank which otherwise could result in a raw gas smell coming from the car on hot days or after extended engine operation. Under no circumstances should you ever plug the vent line coming from the gas tank as this could result in a potentially dangerous pressure buildup in the tank as the fuel is heated (either during engine operation or on hot days).


fieroluke (o.scholz@gmx.net) MSG #793, 10-28-2008 03:18 AM
      Aaah, that makes perfect sense now. Thanks for the explanation!

Best regards,

Oliver


fieroluke (o.scholz@gmx.net) MSG #794, 11-01-2008 11:42 AM
      For those who are having trouble removing the pins from the ECM connector, here is a link to a page detailing the procedure (scroll to the bottom of the page):

http://www.chevythunder.com...%20ecm%20pinouts.htm

It has pictures of what the pins look like and what's happening inside the connector i.e. where you have to insert the tool and what it does.
It also shows the lisle tool that can be used instead of a hairpin.

Hope someone finds this useful.

Oh, and *bump*.

Regards,

Oliver


americasfuture2k MSG #795, 11-01-2008 07:00 PM
      sweet, nice find luke. i had my doubts about that tool. thinking it was some sorta scam tool. but it looks real anad useful, so i may just need to get one. that lil weatherpack terminal removal tool is very delicate. i bent mine the first day. had just barely enough left to still use it.



americasfuture2k MSG #796, 11-08-2008 02:39 PM
      alright, got a new one for you ryan!

i built another 7730 harness, made it much cleaner and more organized than merlot's. all the pins and wires are in good condition and in the right spot. but my fuel pump will not come on without forcing it on through the ALDL. i plugged the APU1 in to see what the ecm is seeing. everything looks fine except that the log is showing no voltage at the fuel pump. what could be causing this to not spit out the 5 or 12 volts , whichever is needed? bad ECM possibly?



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #797, 11-08-2008 04:31 PM
      Make sure the C203 is connected. This is the connector under the ECM. The fuel pump wires run through there.


americasfuture2k MSG #798, 11-08-2008 05:17 PM
      that is connected. but i dont see how that would explain the ECM not sending out the voltage. that datalog shoes 0.00v on the fuelpump.



Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #799, 11-08-2008 08:32 PM
      The ECM would be getting voltage, not sending it. Power to the fuel pump comes from the fuse panel. (Check your fuses?) I would check if the ECM is seeing voltage when you put 12v to the aldl plug. This may be hard if you are datalogging through the aldl plug. May have to stick the 12v wire into the backside of the aldl connector.

BTW: I just ordered the APU1. Should be here on Monday. This is gonna be fun.


americasfuture2k MSG #800, 11-08-2008 10:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:

The ECM would be getting voltage, not sending it. Power to the fuel pump comes from the fuse panel. (Check your fuses?) I would check if the ECM is seeing voltage when you put 12v to the aldl plug. This may be hard if you are datalogging through the aldl plug. May have to stick the 12v wire into the backside of the aldl connector.

BTW: I just ordered the APU1. Should be here on Monday. This is gonna be fun.


i just swapped ECM's and still the same thing.
my fuses are good. ive tested the fuel pump relay turn on wire from the ECM and it reads nothing. its that grn/wht wire coming from the ECM to the FP relay.
the datalog doesnt show anything when 12v is applied to pin G on the ALDL. or....wait, come to