ecotec swap
Topic started by: wftb, Date: 11-16-2006 10:44 PM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000029.html


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #1, 11-16-2006 10:44 PM
      hopefully this wont be the shortest thread ever as this is an attempt to get pip to work for me and to document an ecotec swap.i am the owner of the second running ecotec fiero and i hope to do a picture by picture buildup on this thread.so here goes : (edit) i thought i would add a bit to the start of this thread for the people that have not been here before .i think a lot of people get the impression that this car is a long term project that has not been on the road yet .it is a long running project but only in the sense that i am a traditional hot rodder who will never give up trying to improve my ride .but by the time i started this thread , the basic swap was completed and i was driving the car .so there is a lot of back tracking .i am going to start editing the thread to clean it up and clarify things .i hope to add a list of all the mistakes i have made along the way (just engine swap , my life mistakes would take way too long) so that i can save any future ecotec swappers some time and aggravation .so enjoy the thread , you will note that i change mind and direction a lot , i always say if you dont you wont see the cliff coming.......

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 04-21-2011).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #2, 11-16-2006 10:49 PM
      A list of what is in this thread :
Overview of initial 2.2 ecotec engine swap
Turbocharging the original engine with a 16G mitsu turbo
Willwood brake calipers and front suspension mods
New 2.2 engine ( there was nothing wrong with the old engine- I messed it up trying to make the changes to it in the car) with wiseco pistons and eagle rods and 20G mitsu turbo (Hahn Racecraft) and new intake and charge and exhaust piping
Various mods and add ons like water meth injection and HP tuners , air to water intercooler etc
Building an SLA custom by me rear suspension , another new exhaust , intake and charge setup
Tuning tuning and more tuning. If you are going to do a 2.2 ecotec swap I recommend a 2010 or newer engine and operating system. Older OS like mine have a lot of drawbacks, the main one being there is only a map sensor and no MAF.
Thread is long and I dont have the time to give it a proper index yet (maybe when I retire) and it needs editing (again , maybe when I retire) .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 04-04-2018).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #3, 11-16-2006 10:51 PM
      trying again


Dodgerunner (dodgerunner@yahoo.com) MSG #4, 11-16-2006 10:53 PM
      Just a tip. Photobucket.com is a lot easier to manage the pictures. Many are posting the pics from there on the forum. The size restriction is a little simpler also.
Plus you can group them in different folder by topic.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #5, 11-16-2006 10:55 PM
      now we are getting somewhere.this is my modified dogbone that attatches to the bottom of the ecotec .the actual moter mount is near the top of the ecotec.now i will try from the beginning.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #6, 11-16-2006 11:49 PM
      more pictures

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #7, 11-16-2006 11:51 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #8, 11-16-2006 11:54 PM
      the above picture is of test fitting the engine and transaxle to my 86 gt .the assembly is supported on the dolly from under the dolly with 2 x4's .made it easy to move around.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #9, 11-16-2006 11:59 PM
      this is my upper engine mount.all the cavalier mounts were used by adding metal mounts to the fiero cradle.the ecotec has no noticeable vibration from idle to full throttle so i did not bother with poly mounts .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 04-04-2018).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #10, 11-17-2006 12:04 AM
      this is the drivers side front transaxle mount

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #11, 11-17-2006 12:08 AM
      i hope this is the rear tranny mount

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #12, 11-17-2006 12:23 AM
      the above pictures are how i adapted the fiero slave cylinder to the cavalier master cylinder .the entire cavalier hydraulic clutch circuitry was utilized .the fiero slave and cavalier master cylinder were mounted on the drivers side strut tower .this eliminates the need for a flex fitting on the fiero line. the cavalier line incorporates a self bleeding reservoir and the throw on the hydraulic cylinders is very close in length.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #13, 11-17-2006 12:25 AM
      ok one picture at a time

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #14, 11-17-2006 12:27 AM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #15, 11-17-2006 12:37 AM
      whats left of the cavalier body side wiring harness after i got rid of stuff i hope i wont need
(edit) i now consider getting rid of any of the cavalier harness to be a mistake .my donor car came with ABS , cruise , AC and all kinds of stuff that i needed these wires and connectors to make work .in my haste to save space i have made more future work .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 04-22-2011).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #16, 11-17-2006 12:44 AM
      this is the cavalier air intake adapted to the fiero breather assembly .i cut it and taped it back together and it works really well.the fiero throttle cable fits the ecotec throttle body by simply hooking it on.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #17, 11-17-2006 12:47 AM
      cavalier ignition switch secret squirelled in fiero glove box

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #18, 11-17-2006 12:59 AM
      this is a cavalier instrument cluster adapted to the fiero pod .since i utilized the cavaliier harness all i had to do was extend the wires and plug it in

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #19, 11-17-2006 01:06 AM
      thats pretty well it for tonight but i will post one pic of the whole car .just consider this a permanent work in progress i know i do...

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #20, 11-17-2006 09:34 AM
      this shows where i mounted the cavalier rad overflow tank.the cav ecm is mounted on the rear firewall in front of the bottle.i relocated the battery to the front trunk.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #21, 11-17-2006 09:45 AM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #22, 11-17-2006 09:50 AM
      tis is how i got rid of the ecotec power steering pump .it is sealed with hi temp rtv.the oil pressure is not high here ,just enough bleeds out to lube the pump bearing.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #23, 11-17-2006 05:38 PM
      i have been working on installing the fiero shifter back in to the car .i have been using the cavalier shifter since i got the car on the road ,but i have not been real happy with it. it didnt have a real smooth 1 - 2 shift and it sat up fairly high in the car .the problem with the fiero shifter is that the gear selector arm goes backwards compared to the cav shifter. also since the cables feed from the wrong side of the tranny you have to either join two sets of cables together or use extender rods.so there are two ways to make the fiero shifter work : make a custom bracket to make the gear select cable pull from the other side of the tranny or leave the cables where they are and modify the fiero shifter to reverse the action.since i dont want to drop the cradle this winter ,i decided to modify the shifter.like this:

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 04-22-2011).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #24, 11-17-2006 05:43 PM
     
edit:this shifter mod is something that i did not think worked very well but other factors were involved .
1- i left the long bolt that goes through the shifter pivot and holds on one side of my throw reversing bracket too loose .i thought it needed the slop to avoid binding and i was wrong .i recently tightened it up and now my shifter is a lot better .positive shifts , low effort .
2= a lot of other problems were caused by my old crappy steel hydraulic clutch line .constantly degrading and corroding slave cylinders .i think i have gone through 4 of them .do your self a favour and when you buy a fiero , install a stainless steel line for your clutch .then bleed out all the old fluid and you will never replace a slave again .the rusty fluid that the carbon steel line creates causes corrosion pitting in the slave cylinder and ruins it .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 04-21-2011).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #25, 11-17-2006 05:51 PM
      this shifts really well .i was hoping to be able to use the orginal fiero trim around the shifter but the extender rods interfere with it.so i have to make a piece to trim up around the shifter.the cavalier shifter installed :



StuGood MSG #26, 11-18-2006 11:26 PM
      Thanks for sharing the pictures and info! Don't know about anyone else, but I'm impressed with your work.

You may have already covered this in another thread, but I have a question: When you adapted the Fiero shifter to work with the Cav. transaxle, did you have to reverse the direction of only the shift (fore-and aft motion) cable, and not the select (side-to-side motion) cable? Or did you reverse the direction of both cables?

Also, the ecm that I believe you said you mounted forward of the coolant tank: Would this be a silver metal box that's mounted to a bracket on the Cavalier's firewall, like 4x 4" square ? I'm guessing that it can withstand engine-compartment heat quite readily, since that's where they put it (if that's in fact what the silver box is) on the Cavalier. But it also entered my mind that since ordinary coolant is electrically conductive, I'd not want to risk splashing coolant onto the ecm. Is the stock Fiero coolant tank still present in the front?

Oh, yes - are you using Dex-Cool (think that's what they call it) for coolant - the stuff GM recommends for the EcoTech?

How's access to the plugs and oil filter housing? I realize you've not put enough miles on it yet for an oil change, but curious how it looks to you.

Do I ask too many stupid questions?


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #27, 11-19-2006 03:46 PM
      all good questions,only the gear select cable needs to be reversed .the ecm is the silver coloured metal box with the cooling fins on it. it seems to be sealed up pretty good.the fiero puke tank is still in use at the front and thats where i do my top ups .i left it on because i didnt feel like running another line from the cavalier bottle to the rad .for whatever reason there is four lines that connect to the cavalier bottle and it is pressurized the same as the rad.i didnt use the dexcool i used a dexcool compatible antifreeze that is suitable for aluminum engines and mixes with normal coolant.i did this because it is near imposible to get all the coolant out of a fiero.the spark plugs sit under a cover on the top of the engine , easy access.the oil filter isnt so easy.some of the normal eco stuff makes it a bit ackward and i will have to cut some tywraps and move wires to get the filter out.id rate it about a 4 out of ten for accesability.i have noticed that the cavalier tranny is quite stiff shifting when it is cold . is this a trait with all 5 speed cavaliers.i put in the exact amount of fluid reccomended by gm ,i will check and see if it is low.once the engine warms up it works fine.
thanks for the kind words .(edit) i realized later that the stiff action of the shifter was caused by yet another failing slave cylinder .the f23 getrags shift quite nicely .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 04-22-2011).]

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #28, 11-19-2006 04:04 PM
      How many mounts did you use? Because my Cradle is custom for a 87 3.8 it has different mount locations. One, lucky enough lines right up, only if I get rid of the AC comprssor. I dont need it anyways. But I am trying to figure out where another location should be. I was thinking about using the stock dogbone location at the top. Then I know the ecotec has a lower motor mount on the side of the trunk in a fiero.

I order my megasquirt stuff monday so I can atleast get the motor running and tuned. BTW if you are looking for perfomance for this motor go to Ecotecforums.com People are getting a well tuned stock 2.2 ecotec into the 160-170hp range! Add a couple bolts-ons and these little things could be sneaking up on 200.

Your post has got me all excited, to bad its 33 degrees here and snow/rain


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #29, 11-19-2006 10:39 PM
      the mounts you see in the pictures are all stock cavalier mounts.there are 2 on the tranny and one up near the cylinder head of the ecotec .none of the steel parts of the fiero mounts were used except i bolted a plate to the fiero engine mount support that is welded on the cradle.i used this plate to locate the dogbone.on the eco ,the dogbone goes on the bottom.

el_roy1985 MSG #30, 11-20-2006 01:05 AM
      I want an Ecotec in my Fiero. I'll be watching this thread, maybe I'll end up goin with one after all.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #31, 11-20-2006 01:28 AM
      i forgot that i had to make a slight mod to the cradle to allow the ac compressor to fit .i did not reweld this area because with my setup this crossmember no longer carries weight ,it just acts as a spreader .my ac does not work right now but i hope to get it going this winter.the ecotec compressor was damaged by the wreckers when they pulled the engine.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #32, 11-21-2006 06:49 PM
      i have been working on getting the fiero ignition switch to turn on the ecotec .i spliced onto the purple wire in the engine compartment and extended it to the eco starter.now the fiero key will turn over the eco.i added three relays to break the hot voltages that i found on the cavalier ignition switch .the plan is that when the fiero key is switched on the relays pull in and i can just leave the cavalier switch in the on position and use the fiero key to turn the car on and off.but i have run into a snag.when the fiero key is turned on ,it seems to cut out the key controlled accesorie feeds .so when i turn the fiero key the car cranks but doesent start .since i dont want to use a switch to turn on and off the relays ,i am going to add a second feed to the relay coils from the solinoid pull in wire.the accessorie feed will remain and take care of relay coil voltage once the switch is off . i can still start the car right now by turning the fiero key on and then cranking with the cavalier key ,but the goal is to only use the fiero key.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #33, 11-21-2006 06:50 PM
      wire to eco starter

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #34, 11-22-2006 05:38 PM
      well adding the extra wire to the relay feed turned out to be not well thought out.i forgot that there would be a backfeed to the starter solinoid from the relay feed.so after i started it i searched in vain for a rattle that i didnt have before .that was the starter not disengaging and now i think i fried my starter.all this to avoid using a 3.00 rocker switch .oh well ,live and learn.

Dave E Bouy (doctorfiero@gmail.com) MSG #35, 11-22-2006 10:35 PM
      Good work. Is that the 2.2 or 2.4? I saw a 2.2 advetized today out a 2003 (I think) Cav for only 200 bucks.

Dave


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #36, 11-22-2006 11:27 PM
      my eco is a 2.2 .they go pretty cheap ,there really isnt a huge market for replacement ecotecs.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #37, 11-26-2006 12:14 AM
      i have been working on my new exhaust system and i figured out that a 50 cent diode would have saved my starter .new one cost 270.00 cdn no one rebuilds these yet apparently.some more pics

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #38, 11-26-2006 12:16 AM
      hole in trunk to fit new exhaust.

befarrer (befarrer@telus.net) MSG #39, 11-26-2006 02:46 PM
      No Ecotecs here, a shop I deliver parts to replaced an ecotec, and the cheapest one they could find was $1300, and that was just a long block, without an oilpan and exhaust manifold.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #40, 11-26-2006 05:00 PM
      mine cost me 1000.00 and came with 5 speed
entire cars wiring harness
steering collum with ignition and key
shifter and cables
entire breather assembly
cavalier axle assembly.
found lots of ecotecs for around 500.00 for an entire moter without harness and accesories
got mine from bell city in brantford ontario.lots of bad drivers in ontario =lots of wrecked cavaliers

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-06-2016).]

fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #41, 11-26-2006 09:27 PM
      haha that's funny, I thought all the bad drivers were in Utah. You can find a lot of J bodies in wrecking yards here, just need to find the 04 2.2 manual kind sounds like. Anyways, a crate motor is ALWAYS going to cost more than one pulled from a wreck, that's because someone's already rebuilt it.

wftb- Any luck and or progress integrating the cavalier's key switch into the fiero's?

cheers
Austin


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #42, 11-26-2006 10:58 PM
      Just so everyone knows, I have ordered my Megasquirt standalone engine computer from my sponsor and should be here this week or next, i plan on running the motor outside the car first and then sticking it in the car when the weather is warmer.

If anyone else goes this route, the ecotec ignition will not work yet (not supported), I am going to run a 98 cavailer 2200 ignition its DIS and pretty simple, will mount where the powersteering pump went. I will also have a vid when the ecotec first starts up. ecotecs rule...


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #43, 11-26-2006 11:15 PM
      i have done this :i added three 12 volt relays into the cavalier ignition switch circuit .these relays break the two 12 awg red wires that read 12 volts hot all the time to the switch ,the green wire that read around 10 volts hot ,and the yellow wire that reads about 6 volts hot.i combined the reds on one relay because they had the same voltage.the relay coils are fed by an ignition activated feed on the fiero fuse box under the dash.in order to prevent grenading of my new starter ,i added a diode in the line from the starter coil feed line to the three relays this prevents any backfeeds to the starter solinoid which is what caused it not to release from the flywheel.i put in the new starter and fired it up using the fiero ignition switch tonight.so no more reaching into the glove box for starting.addmittedly this is a low tech solution ,seeing as the cavalier switch is still in the circuit.but now i just turn it on and forget about it.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #44, 11-26-2006 11:30 PM
      the picture above shows where i added the diode.from the purple wire that runs from the fiero ignition switch to the starter sole
noid.the diode connects to the positive side of the added relays to prevent the relay coils dropping out when you turn on the fiero ignition switch.when the switch is in the run position ,it prevents a backfeed to the solenoid.
the megasquirt system looks interesting ,but i like the idea of using as much factory stuff as possible.they have already done all the work.gotta love the plug and play of modern factory wiring.


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #45, 11-27-2006 11:04 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

the picture above shows where i added the diode.from the purple wire that runs from the fiero ignition switch to the starter sole
noid.the diode connects to the positive side of the added relays to prevent the relay coils dropping out when you turn on the fiero ignition switch.when the switch is in the run position ,it prevents a backfeed to the solenoid.
the megasquirt system looks interesting ,but i like the idea of using as much factory stuff as possible.they have already done all the work.gotta love the plug and play of modern factory wiring.



I agree with you with the factory wiring, my motor didnt come with all the wiring so i had to go with megasquirt. But in the end, us Elite Ecotec Users, ( ) are all here for the same cause hehe...

"Ecotec, the replacement for displacement"


looking good btw, if u get a chance post some pics of your motor mounts more closely, I am still deciding on those.


Mike Bucala (mikebucala@comcast.net) MSG #46, 11-28-2006 07:07 PM
      Nice work. I am about to begin a similar project. I have an 88 4cyl 5spd. I also have a near zero miles 2.2 Ecotec from a wreck, and a 5 spd from a Cobalt SS. I'm putting them together with a Fidanza aluminum flywheel, and Cobalt/Saab clutch. I think a header made for a Cavalier/Cobalt will fit as well. I have the full wiring harness and all factory wiring diagrams. I also got the column, gauges, and fuel system. Since I am an engineer for GM, I can at least get whatever technical data I need to complete this project. I think the wiring diagram is available to anyone on line through GM's service website.

ICouldaBeenAV8 (donotbotherspamming@gmail.com) MSG #47, 11-29-2006 12:23 AM
      bump.

StuGood MSG #48, 11-29-2006 12:33 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Mike Bucala:I think the wiring diagram is available to anyone on line through GM's service website.
That sounds like it would be a great resource! If you find a link to the wiring diagrams, could you please post it here? Thanks.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #49, 11-29-2006 12:39 AM
      the cobalt / cavilier headers point fairly straight out from the engine so you end up losing a lot of your trunk .i am trying to find a solstice exhaust manifold at a decent price because they point down instead of out.but the only site i found one on doesnt show a pic and i think they will send a cavvy manifold.is the cobalt ss tranny an F35?

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #50, 11-29-2006 12:51 AM
      Mike Bucala, let me know if you need someone to hold the drop light. I have a crash pad by Detroit-Metro where I fly for USA 3000 Airlines. Would be nice to know another Fiero owner when I bring mine up next summer.

Ok, someone tell me, what is the advantage to the ecotec over the other engine options?


fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #51, 11-29-2006 01:38 AM
      speaking from zero experience, I personally would have trouble fabbing those mounts that wftb did, they look fantastic, but it seems the GM guys decided to mount the eco in the cav every where the fiero's motor/trans is not mounted. that and the computer interface issues. I like the fact that the axles fit on wftb's build. I wonder if there's room to reverse the shift cable in the engine compartment, though? Any word on that solstice manifold?
cheers
Austin



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #52, 11-30-2006 08:25 AM
      actually the mounts are pretty simple .i have a grinder chop saw and a vice and an assortment of hammers.most hardware stores have steel for sale that will do .i set the assembly on the cradle and cut and bent to suit.as you can see in the pics ,i bolted the mounts on first ,just to hold everything in place so i could trailer it over to my friend Al's so he could weld it for me .he added the boxing on the tall mount .the other side of the front mount is a simple L shape .picture : i have decided not to get the solstice exhaust manifold at this time.i am going to get headers when they become available.
there is lots of room to run the gear select cable in from the the other side of the tranny to avoid modifying the shifter .you need to make your own bracket and still would have to add extension rods to the shifter.


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #53, 11-30-2006 12:18 PM
      how much space is there between the motor and trunk?

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #54, 12-01-2006 08:18 AM
      there is 7 inches from the valve cover to the top of the trunk firewall .you can vary this distance depending on how much tilt you mount the moter at .the cavalier exhaust manifold juts almost straight out but does end up going below the step in the trunk .i still have the original spring loaded fitting and a stub of the original tail pipe on the manifold ,so there is only room for a tight bend without cutting the trunk.after i get my new pipe on i am going to patch it with sheetmetal and it will only intrude about an inch.if you go to the thread "drove an ecotech powered fiero today "i believe you can see what i mean about the cavalier headers.

FierOmar (davidcordier@sbcglobal.net) MSG #55, 12-01-2006 11:16 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

there is 7 inches from the valve cover to the top of the trunk firewall .you can vary this distance depending on how much tilt you mount the moter at .the cavalier exhaust manifold juts almost straight out but does end up going below the step in the trunk .i still have the original spring loaded fitting and a stub of the original tail pipe on the manifold ,so there is only room for a tight bend without cutting the trunk.after i get my new pipe on i am going to patch it with sheetmetal and it will only intrude about an inch.if you go to the thread "drove an ecotech powered fiero today "i believe you can see what i mean about the cavalier headers.


I think you meant: to say "drove an ecotec powered fiero today " (not ecotech).
Thread can be found here:
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/061080.html

Sure enough... a picture is worth a thousand (or at least a lotta) words.




fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #56, 12-03-2006 01:29 AM
      bump.


wftb: So correct me if I'm wrong, but is this megasquirt box everyone's talking about basically a reprogrammed ecm that makes the eco talk to the fiero electronics? How much is one of these? Would this eliminate the need to secret squirrel the ignition switch in the glove compartment? Despite how cool the term is, it would be neat to see it done



1fastcaddy (ku_ace@yahoo.com) MSG #57, 12-03-2006 11:33 AM
      megasquirt is a complete standalone fully programmable DIY ecm with tons of online forum support also. I actually have one that Im tryin to sell if your interested. It was tested to work and I have a harness, although its setup for a TPI v8. Let me know if you, or anyone else is interested. $350 + shipping. Thanks, Drew



fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #58, 12-03-2006 06:38 PM
      Would the programmability of the your 5.7 TPI box lend to its ability to be used for this swap, an ecotec one? And how much is one new, comapred to your $350, that seems pretty reasonable if it was useable in an eco swap.

Austin



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #59, 12-03-2006 06:38 PM
      i think the megasquirt would probably work fine and then the fiero and cav ecm are simply not needed .the draw back is that megasquirt will not run the ecotec ignition.so you have to add a stand alone ignition system .a distributor can be run off of the power steering drive point.the 1000 hp drag race motor used a distributor like that.

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #60, 12-03-2006 11:15 PM
      About the megasquirt, yes the ignition is a draw back, I will be running a DIS ignition off a 1998 cavailer. 2 Coils and should be rather simple once I can find it, my local junkyard said they had one for $35 but they only had '97s and earlier.

(Note: Anyone getting the DIS off a cavailer, its in your best interest to get a 98+ off a 2200 motor. The '97 ones are extremely hard to get to as they are mounted behind the motor, the 98+ are mounted right about the trans/motor area and only require a 13mm wrench and some wire cutters)

I should be receiving my megasquirt stuff this week, I am sponsored by this company ( will say who later) and they have offered to give everyone doing a fiero swap a small discount, so stay tuned on that!

wtfb, what header are you looking at? I will be needing one also, this will most likely be my first upgrade after the motor is running.


fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #61, 12-03-2006 11:55 PM
      Wow, so um.. why won't it run the ignition? Isn't the eco's ignition run via data from the crank sensor, vaccuum, tps, iat, etc? isn't that what an ecm does? Or rather, couldn't you at least get the pulse data from it and then send it to the injectors? Seems like a waste of money if it doesn't do everything... unless the distributor isn't that hard to do. Would having the distributor make it less efficient? Would you have to do rig up a vaccuum advance on it, too?

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #62, 12-04-2006 11:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fierodeletre:

Wow, so um.. why won't it run the ignition? Isn't the eco's ignition run via data from the crank sensor, vaccuum, tps, iat, etc? isn't that what an ecm does? Or rather, couldn't you at least get the pulse data from it and then send it to the injectors? Seems like a waste of money if it doesn't do everything... unless the distributor isn't that hard to do. Would having the distributor make it less efficient? Would you have to do rig up a vaccuum advance on it, too?


The distributor mention, is placed where the powersteering pump is on the ecotec, the PS pump is on the rear of the motor on one of cams, from what I know it is rather simple. Reason I am not doing it: price, 289 I beleive on ebay for the MSD one. When I can pick up a DIS system for cheap at a junkyard. Megasquirt can do alot but from what I know cannot support that one type of ignition (Coil on Plug)


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #63, 12-04-2006 01:34 PM
      so far i havent found a header that will work the way i want it .as mentioned before ,the cavalier headers use up a lot of trunk space.the manifold from the 2.4 solstice motor should bolt right up and it points down instead of straight out.but i am going to wait until someone starts making a header for the solstice and get one of those.there isnt any market for a solstice header yet ,i have gone to a lot of sites and no solstice headers yet.this is what i am stuck with at the moment:

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #64, 12-04-2006 01:42 PM
      there may also be interference issues with a solstice style exhaust header or manifold.the solstice doesnt have a drive axle to worry about . in the pictures that archie posted for me ,it didnt look to be an issue but until somebody tries it we wont know for sure.i believe the thread is titled " question for solstice owners "

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #65, 12-04-2006 06:04 PM
      Thats exactly the type of picture I wanted! thanks

fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #66, 12-04-2006 10:34 PM
      That pic from Archie looks like it still juts out pretty straight, but then again, I don't have either in front of me, so it could jsut be a trick on my eyes.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #67, 12-04-2006 11:12 PM
      the can you see in the pics is the catylitic converter .it is bolted directly to the solstice exhaust manifold.notice how the outlet is pointed down to the floor and angled back towards the transmission.if that cat were bolted to my cavalier manifold ,it would stick out at about an 80* angle to the engine .instead of pointing at the floor ,it would mostly be pointing at the wall of that building.
i have stopped working on the exhaust for now because i realized i have to do my gas tank mods first or i will end up having to take the exhaust off anyway to make it easy to get at the tank.i am going to put the cavalier fuel pump and sender unit into the fiero gas tank .the fiero pump works ok but it is about 9 lbs light and if i put in the cavvy pump and sender i get a gas guage back again.i dropped the tank and knocked the fiero mount ring off the tank .i have to fix the holes this left and then the opening will have to be cut slightky bigger to fit the cavalier pump. then i am going to bolt the cavvy pump into the tank using a big o ring and bolts through the tank and onto the fuel pump locking ring .i thought i would have to custom make a new tank but it looks like this will work fine .pic of cavvy pump assembly:


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #68, 12-04-2006 11:14 PM
      gas tank out and locking ring removed

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #69, 12-04-2006 11:21 PM
      this is how i tapped in to the cavalier harness to run the fiero fuel pump .i fed into the fiero fuel pump harness by connecting the grey and black wires of the cav harness directly to the fiero pump feed.the cav bcm has its own relays to turn the pump on and off.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #70, 12-04-2006 11:39 PM
      that was the wrong tank picture .this one shows the lock ring removed and the cavalier locking device is in the background.

fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #71, 12-04-2006 11:55 PM
      hey wftb, I had a few questions about ecotecs for ya: 1: Are both the 2.2 and the 2.4 VVT engines? Also, is the 170hp we've been talking about for the 2.2 you installed, or is that a 2.4 stat? Upon closer inspection of the photo, I can see what you're talking about with respect to the header angle. Kinda a funny place for a cat, but then again I'm not a GM engineer. If I was that solstice would have an eco in the middle and be called a 07 fiero, but that's jsut me. btw looking great on the build, thanks for the pics and info.
Austin



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #72, 12-05-2006 01:12 PM
      the 2.4 is a v.v.t. the 2.2 is not.the 2.4 solstice is rated at 177 hp.the 2.2 is rated 140 to 150 hp depending on the car it is in.independant testing of the 2.2 has shown higher than 160 hp. at the crank.so a solstice motor would be a nice catch if you could find one.

fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #73, 12-05-2006 09:19 PM
      You know WFTB, I heard about that 160hp mark as well, and I've tried finding out if anyone did similar tests on a 2.4L Eco, but haven't had any luck.

GM did similar stunts with the LS1 V8's... writing down a lower HP number than what it really was. They tend to do this to reduce insurance costs of the vehicles.

Project is looking good bud! Keep it up.



fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #74, 12-06-2006 01:09 AM
      Does anyone else find it mildly ironic that a swap in a fwd setup on a rwd car requires a rwd header to clear the engine bay wall? hehe



fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #75, 12-06-2006 05:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fierodeletre:

Does anyone else find it mildly ironic that a swap in a fwd setup on a rwd car requires a rwd header to clear the engine bay wall? hehe



Lol


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #76, 12-06-2006 10:24 PM
      I have a friend thats a service manager at a dealership, he can get a 06 Solitice Header and gasket for $250
Might be worth it...


fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #77, 12-06-2006 10:49 PM
      correct me if I'm wrong, but solstices come only with a 2.4, right? whether or not it's turbocharched, it's still a 2.4 Does the 2.4 have the same head as the 2.2? or rather, will the manifolds bolt up/interchange?



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #78, 12-06-2006 10:55 PM
      i saw a price of 165.00 on one of the parts seller websites (list 265.00) .i just dont trust them to send the right one.and then if it is the wrong one ,how do you get your money back ? the return shipping would put you way out of pocket.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #79, 12-07-2006 11:12 PM
      i think the heads are at least the same casting.all the different tests i have read only mention how the bore and stroke changes to go from 2.0 to 2.2 to 2.4 .no mention of different valve sizes or head changes other than V V T on the 2.4 .today i got the cavalier fuel pump into the fiero tank and put the tank back in the car.hooked it up to the harness and turned the ignition on and got no noise from the pump .good news is i now have a working gas guage .i dont know why the pump is not working , i hot wired it before i put it in the tank and it ran ok .i really hope i dont have to drop the tank again .i am really sick of gas fumes . this is how the cavalier pump got installed in the fiero tank.i used the fiero o ring on the cavvy pump .i had to cut the hole slightly larger with a jig saw.if you look closely you will see two connectors on this assembly.one feeds the pump and the sending unit for the gas gauge and the other one has three wires going to some sort of sensor.i did not have that connector hooked to anything before so maybe that could be why my pump is not working.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #80, 12-07-2006 11:15 PM
      the turbo solstice is a 2.0 litre motor ,not a 2.4 i dont know if it has V V T.

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #81, 12-07-2006 11:57 PM
      Just wondering, if you didnt have the cav fuel pump on hand would u of just gone with a High performance fuel pump? Obviously I will be needing to upgrade my fuel pump once i get the motor in there.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #82, 12-08-2006 12:46 AM
      i am trying to use the cavalier fuel pump mainly because i couldnt figure out any other way to get my cavalier fuel gauge working.i looked into an extra sender and booster pump but they seemed like to much work .now i am not so sure .....

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #83, 12-08-2006 11:40 AM
      You could just always put a switch in for the fuel pump? Thats what my plan is a switch for fuel and ignition, plus it allows u to get some oil flowing before it starts.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #84, 12-08-2006 01:26 PM
      i am going to to run the pump off of one of the ignition switch actuated feeds on the fiero fuse block if i have to.i think i will be able to figure out what is wrong ,i think it might be just a bad ground.the cavalier harness made the fiero fuel pump work without a problem ,so it should operate the pump it was meant to operate.i was a little too tired to start trouble shooting last night .i really do not want to drop the tank again.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #85, 12-08-2006 01:56 PM
      turned out i just needed to add a ground to the cavalier harness .i must have accidentally cut off the ground for that part of the harness when i was cutting it down in size.the fiero pump assembly is all metal and i noticed the ground wire is attached right on that assembly.thats why the fiero pump ran without an additional ground .so now that the engine is running again ,i can go back to working on my new exhaust system .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #86, 12-08-2006 02:17 PM
      and the fuel pressure guage now reads 60 psi at idle.the fiero pump put out 46psi .i wasnt expecting that big of a difference.

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #87, 12-08-2006 02:38 PM
      Was there any perfomance issuse w/ the fiero pump? I plan on having a wideband O2 sensor so I can see if it leans out. You would sure think that 46psi to 60psi would make a hit on perfomance

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #88, 12-08-2006 06:10 PM
      it seemed to run fine ,but i have the section of the instrument cluster that shows the warning lights blanked off so i dont have to stare at the airbag light,door ajar ,brakes ,and all the other stuff that lights up because they are not connected .since the car is off the road right now i wont know what kind of improvement this makes until spring.

fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #89, 12-09-2006 11:47 PM
      Hey WFTB, thanks for the comments on my ecotec project. I left a special response for you on my thread, plus a solution to your exhaust manifold issues
---
I read through this thread again, and came across something I missed. Megasquirt! You guys had said that it can't control the Ecotec's ignition... that isn't 100% true.

Yes, MS is designed as a fuel computer, BUT there is an upgrade called "Megasquirt n' Spark" or "MSnS" for short.
---
The version of MS that I have is optimal for the upgrade: V2.2 board with the MS 1 setup. MS 2 apparently doesn't work with it. And as far as the boards, earlier 1.x versions need a bunch of upgrades, and V3.0 only supports 1 coil (I think).

The way my setup will (theoretically) work is as follows:

With the firmware change to MSnS, outputs 17 and 19 (default setting), two of the LED's on the side of the box, are sacrificed to trigger the 2 channels on the ignition module on the Ecotec's COP module, but the lights will be more useful, as two LED's will represent ignition pulses, and the one used for injector pulses will remain... far better than "enrichment" and "warmup" indications if you ask me.

As far as triggering source, MSnS is compatible with the toothed wheel on the Ecotec's crank (6 teeth?).

I can't confirm 100% that the Ecotec ignition module (the smaller part with the aluminum fins) will be compatible, but it's a good chance, and there is a daugterboard upgrade if it's not.

With that daughterboard upgrade, you just rip the ignition module off the COP unit (it's held on by 3 screws), and use NAPA connector part # EC144 or AC Delco connector part # PT787 in place of it (Napa's is cheaper), or you can use seprate MSD coil packs (preferabbly dual output coils). There's no good reason to NOT do wasted spark ignition with this motor, because that's how it is in stock form. Individual coil channels will kinda go against how the motor was designed, and will require more outputs from MS.
---
The COP module has two coil packs inside of it, and uses a 6 pin connector, but pins 1 & 5 aren't installed on the module.

Pin 2 is cylinders 1 & 4, pin 3 is ignition voltage, pin 4 is cylinders 2 & 3, and pin 6, although on the COP module, it isn't used, although one day I'll take a bad pack apart and see where it goes.
---
As far as wire readouts on the ignition module itself, I'm not that far yet. I have to do some R & D of my own, as no one has that info in simplified form. I have to visually trace the individual wires from the module to the individual ECM pins, and look up the ECM pin #, which I have planned for the many snowy "stay indoors" days that the state of Maine has to offer

I am going to post that info as soon as I have it.

P.S. If any Megasquirt gurus out there see any flaws in this info... DO NOT HESITATE to correct me. I did this research over 4 months ago, and I'm sure I mixed something up.



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #90, 12-10-2006 12:08 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroturbo:

Hey WFTB, thanks for the comments on my ecotec project. I left a special response for you on my thread, plus a solution to your exhaust manifold issues
---
I read through this thread again, and came across something I missed. Megasquirt! You guys had said that it can't control the Ecotec's ignition... that isn't 100% true.

Yes, MS is designed as a fuel computer, BUT there is an upgrade called "Megasquirt n' Spark" or "MSnS" for short.
---
The version of MS that I have is optimal for the upgrade: V2.2 board with the MS 1 setup. MS 2 apparently doesn't work with it. And as far as the boards, earlier 1.x versions need a bunch of upgrades, and V3.0 only supports 1 coil (I think).

The way my setup will (theoretically) work is as follows:

With the firmware change to MSnS, outputs 17 and 19 (default setting), two of the LED's on the side of the box, are sacrificed to trigger the 2 channels on the ignition module on the Ecotec's COP module, but the lights will be more useful, as two LED's will represent ignition pulses, and the one used for injector pulses will remain... far better than "enrichment" and "warmup" indications if you ask me.

As far as triggering source, MSnS is compatible with the toothed wheel on the Ecotec's crank (6 teeth?).

I can't confirm 100% that the Ecotec ignition module (the smaller part with the aluminum fins) will be compatible, but it's a good chance, and there is a daugterboard upgrade if it's not.

With that daughterboard upgrade, you just rip the ignition module off the COP unit (it's held on by 3 screws), and use NAPA connector part # EC144 or AC Delco connector part # PT787 in place of it (Napa's is cheaper), or you can use seprate MSD coil packs (preferabbly dual output coils). There's no good reason to NOT do wasted spark ignition with this motor, because that's how it is in stock form. Individual coil channels will kinda go against how the motor was designed, and will require more outputs from MS.
---
The COP module has two coil packs inside of it, and uses a 6 pin connector, but pins 1 & 5 aren't installed on the module.

Pin 2 is cylinders 1 & 4, pin 3 is ignition voltage, pin 4 is cylinders 2 & 3, and pin 6, although on the COP module, it isn't used, although one day I'll take a bad pack apart and see where it goes.
---
As far as wire readouts on the ignition module itself, I'm not that far yet. I have to do some R & D of my own, as no one has that info in simplified form. I have to visually trace the individual wires from the module to the individual ECM pins, and look up the ECM pin #, which I have planned for the many snowy "stay indoors" days that the state of Maine has to offer

I am going to post that info as soon as I have it.

P.S. If any Megasquirt gurus out there see any flaws in this info... DO NOT HESITATE to correct me. I did this research over 4 months ago, and I'm sure I mixed something up.


I was pretty much the only one mentioning megasquirt, but from what I read that little aluminum thing would not work with MSnS. Thats why I am using the 2 coil DIS off an older cavailer, since I know the jbody people have been doing this for sometime with no problems.


fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #91, 12-10-2006 12:30 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fosgatecavy98:
I was pretty much the only one mentioning megasquirt, but from what I read that little aluminum thing would not work with MSnS. Thats why I am using the 2 coil DIS off an older cavailer, since I know the jbody people have been doing this for sometime with no problems.


I think part of it is that no one has tried it. If I remember right, it's a 7 pin connector, and 6 pins are used. 2 pins for the ignition channels, 1 for 12V, 1 for ground, 1 for crank trigger input, and 1 for tach output... I don't yet know which pins exactly do those things... but I'm working on it, and it should work in theory. Everything the module needs, MSnS can supply.

Time will tell in a couple of months when I crank my Ecotec over. If it doesn't start... well, we'll have the answer to our question



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #92, 12-10-2006 12:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroturbo:


I think part of it is that no one has tried it. If I remember right, it's a 7 pin connector, and 6 pins are used. 2 pins for the ignition channels, 1 for 12V, 1 for ground, 1 for crank trigger input, and 1 for tach output... I don't yet know which pins exactly do those things... but I'm working on it, and it should work in theory. Everything the module needs, MSnS can supply.

Time will tell in a couple of months when I crank my Ecotec over. If it doesn't start... well, we'll have the answer to our question



I may have the diagram you need, I'll post in a little bit if I can get ahold of it again



fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #93, 12-11-2006 08:55 PM
      wftb- correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like you've taken the ECM 'entier' from the cavalier and even the ignition switch and guage cluster. I presume that this allows you to use the stock ignition system as well? Will we not always need the eco's brain box to run it? I mean it sounds like we might be on the cusp of figuring out how to rig the MS to make it go, but my question is why we can't just make the Cav's ECM talk to the fiero guages? Is it as simple (ha) as routing each and every wire form the ECM to each and every applicable wire from the fiero's chassis electrical system? I seem to remember reading up somewhere that that's how the 3.8 guys do it, piggybacking the 3.8's brain on the fiero's accessories and guages. Are the inputs/outputs so different on the eco that they are in no way compatible with the stock fiero guages/chassis?



fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #94, 12-11-2006 08:57 PM
      Oh- and I wanted to ask as well, is it possible/feasible/worth it to make a 2.2 that makes 200hp without blowing it or turboing it?



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #95, 12-11-2006 11:52 PM
      my ecotec engine is run off of the cavalier ignition ,ecm ,bcm and wireing .the fiero computer is not in the car.i use the cavalier instrument cluster because it plugs right in to the harness.i am not much of a computer person ,so i dont know if the fiero gauges can be blended with the cavalier ecm/bcm .my main goal was to make my fiero run with this motor ,and make it perfect later .so in my car the cavvy ecm/bcm will probably remain intregral.as for making 200 hp normally asperated ,i think that would not be hard unless you have nooo money .

fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #96, 12-12-2006 12:56 AM
      I really have no idea on four bangers, what kind of mods would you have in mind to do that? Would it still get good mileage if you nursed it?



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #97, 12-12-2006 12:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fierodeletre:

Oh- and I wanted to ask as well, is it possible/feasible/worth it to make a 2.2 that makes 200hp without blowing it or turboing it?



From what I have read (quiet a bit) 2.2 ecotecs can get up to 250+ hp easy with a gm supercharger kit. The 2.0 ecotec comes with a supercharger and is 230 or so from the factory, with a stage 2, it puts the motor up to 250-260. Ecotecs the best way to go.


fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #98, 12-12-2006 02:15 PM
      That's crazy, man. Of course, I'm sure you're looking at a hefty chink of change for one of those blower units. What else are they doing to the engine to get those kind of numbers? The coolest part is that they still are way lighter than the original engines and any other iron block engine used for swapping. I'd like to see someone produce a kit made from wftb's mounts he fabbed, if it was comparable or less than archie's V8 kit I'd be all over that like fat on cheese.
cheers
Austin



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #99, 12-12-2006 07:04 PM
      i think 200 hp out of the 2.2 is do able with headers , better intake and throttle body ,custom exhaust and better cams .my plan is just to hang a turbo on mine , maybe next winter.i dont want to do anything that requires engine surgery .this motor ran really strong the way it was and with the better exhaust i am putting on it will be even stronger.i priced out a g-tech unit down in London today and i am going to get one before spring and then i will have some performance numbers to post.
i think the supercharged moter would be great .the kit is 2500.00 plus shipping .i think i can turbo for a lot less than that.plus once they start showing up in the wrecking yards , it should be cheaper to buy a whole engine and transmission than what the supercharger kit is going for.if GM would hurry up and put the supercharged motor in more cars ,the price would drop in a hurry.
as far as kits go ,i talked to Lloyd at Fast fieros and he doesnt want to do a kit until he has done some turnkey jobs and he has been too busy to mess with the ecotec.ceticars has a stand alone wiring harness and adapter plates are available to use the stock fiero tranny .of course that drives the price up .


fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #100, 12-12-2006 07:31 PM
      I re-opened some of my research on MSnS with the stock Ecotec ignition control module.

It seems the "IC Timing Control A" and "IC Timing Control B" are the missing factors in getting the stock module to work.

What's needed is a square wave signal. All I need is to figure out the frequency and the amplitude.



fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #101, 12-12-2006 07:35 PM
      kinda sounds like the mod those 3.8 guys do on their speedometers...



82-T/A [At Work] MSG #102, 12-12-2006 09:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

so far i havent found a header that will work the way i want it .as mentioned before ,the cavalier headers use up a lot of trunk space.the manifold from the 2.4 solstice motor should bolt right up and it points down instead of straight out.but i am going to wait until someone starts making a header for the solstice and get one of those.there isnt any market for a solstice header yet ,i have gone to a lot of sites and no solstice headers yet.this is what i am stuck with at the moment:



You're in luck. They DO make headers for the Solstice, and I have one on mine. I've had it now for almost 6 months. They are made by a company called Clear Image Automotive. The shorty header is friggin AWESOME.

http://www.clearimageautomotive.com/Pontiac%20Solstice-Saturn%20Sky%20(2006).htm

The guys who own the shop is Todd Cason and Daniel Ferrara.

I'm on order for their free-flow catalytic converter. I was going to e-mail you because I now have a spare Solstice exhaust manifold, but I reconsidered because I might as well keep everything for this car in case it becomes something of a rarity in 30 years (I plan to still have it then).

But, I might as well get to my original point that I was going to post before I saw this one...

Why wouldn't you want to consider using a 2.4 VVT Solstice or HHR motor? The 2.2 EcoTec is a great motor... yeah, but it's grossly underpowered and is really not an upgrade over the V6 Fiero.

With a free-flow intake and a free-flow exhaust, you can easily squeeze 200hp out of the Solstice 2.4 VVT motor.

My Solstice weighs about ~2850 pounds, and I typically see 18s in the city, and nearly 30 on the highway for fuel economy. Imagine what that would do in a Fiero which weighs 2700 pounds (probably 50-75lbs less because that's figuring the weight of an all cast iron V6 or L4).


Anyway, just something to consider.


Here is one on eBay right now for $1,899.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2-4-L-ECOTEC-VVT-ENGINE-TRANS-GM-OE-CHEVY-COBALT-SS-ION_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ011QQitemZ320041502567QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V

and here's another, but for $1,200:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2006-Chevy-Cobalt-SS-2-4-Liter-Ecotec-VVT-10k_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33615QQihZ013QQitemZ230001961403QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWD1V



82-T/A [At Work] MSG #103, 12-12-2006 09:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

i think 200 hp out of the 2.2 is do able with headers , better intake and throttle body ,custom exhaust and better cams .my plan is just to hang a turbo on mine , maybe next winter.i dont want to do anything that requires engine surgery .this motor ran really strong the way it was and with the better exhaust i am putting on it will be even stronger.i priced out a g-tech unit down in London today and i am going to get one before spring and then i will have some performance numbers to post.
i think the supercharged moter would be great .the kit is 2500.00 plus shipping .i think i can turbo for a lot less than that.plus once they start showing up in the wrecking yards , it should be cheaper to buy a whole engine and transmission than what the supercharger kit is going for.if GM would hurry up and put the supercharged motor in more cars ,the price would drop in a hurry.
as far as kits go ,i talked to Lloyd at Fast fieros and he doesnt want to do a kit until he has done some turnkey jobs and he has been too busy to mess with the ecotec.ceticars has a stand alone wiring harness and adapter plates are available to use the stock fiero tranny .of course that drives the price up .



Honestly... you may want to consider going with a 2.4 LD9 "TwinCam" motor for your swap instead.

It might actually be a MUCH better solution for you. I've had quite a bit of experience with the TwinCam, and I have to say it's a really great motor. It's not much different than the Ecotec, at least if we're talking about a NON VVT one.

You can get a low mileage "LD9" TwinCam engine for VERY cheap. They are ALL over eBay. You'll want to find one from a 96-98 Pontiac Grand Am / Olds Achieva, or the Chevy Cavalier / Sunfire with the 2.4. They also had them in the last generation of GrandAms up until 2002.

The reason I mention it is because... GM offers a FACTORY PERFORMANCE KIT for the 2.4 LD9 TwinCam with the Getrag 5-Speed. It's a supercharger that bolts RIGHT up to it. It even has the air intake facing towards the Fiero's factory air inlet / side scoop.

Now, the 2.4 TwinCam is basically the "OBD-2" version of the Quad-4. There are MANY kits that were offered for the Quad-4 over the years. There don't appear to be any currently available anymore, but there are enough people with them that you can easily get information. I mention the Quad-4 because you can actually CONTROL the 2.4 TwinCam using all LATE 2.3 Quad-4 electronics. The 1993-1995 Quad-4 computer / engine harness will bolt RIGHT up to the TwinCam.

Or... you can still do what he's doing in this thread for his Ecotec. The benefit of course to going with OBD-1 is that the ECM is more or less self contained and doesn't have any requirements for all that other crap (the ABS computer, the radio, the dash cluster processor, all that other crap). So, you can basically use your STOCK Fiero gauge cluster (or a 120, or whatever) and hook it all up to the OBD-1 Quad-4 ECM.

What's even BETTER is that there is a set of upgraded camshafts that can be used on the 2.4 TwinCam. This is called the "Secret Cam Swap". It's a silly name, but basically what you do is take an intake cam from a 1993 Quad-4, and an exhaust cam from a 1995 Quad-4 (or it might be the other way around). That said, you end up with exactly 11 more peak horsepower, and a shift of power by about 200rpms. (slightly less INITIAL power off the line, but much much more pull in the mid to upper rpms).

But, in a Fiero that's much lighter than a crapalier, or an older GrandAm, you're going to be putting out some decent power.

Consider it, the stock 2.4 LD9 TwinCam has basically a totally FLAT torque curve... which almost negates any benefit really of having VVT (you wouldn't see much improvement).

The stock LD9 TwinCam puts out 155hp and 150lbs of torque in it's typical form. With the Secret Cam Swap, you'll see somewhere around 165hp and 155lbs of torque. Now, when you go with the GM supercharger, you'll be putting out around ~220hp.


It's a REALLY great swap, and what's so nice about the 2.4 TwinCam is that it's actually a fairly refined motor (compared to the Quad-4). It has a set of balancing shafts which help quiet and smooth the engines operation.

If you want more information on this motor, the swap, or about the supercharger... you can go to www.Quad4Forums.com


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #104, 12-12-2006 10:44 PM
      its a little late for me to do a quad 4 style swap since i have already put about 6000 km on my ecotec swapped 86 gt.but i agree that the quad 4 and all its varients are great motors .but i wanted 3 things out of my swap:
1.i wanted an engine that is still in production
2.i wanted aluminum block and head
3.i wanted 5 speeds and a stronger transaxle
as far as using the fiero dash cluster and gauges ,i really didnt care if they got used or not.when i found out that a cavalier cluster could be had for only 65.00 i jumped at it.it was easy to adapt to the fiero pod and the whole assembly doesnt even weigh a pound.it gives the car an updated look without a lot of work.
the cavalier intake also points in the same direction as the fiero.shorten it up and clamp it on.
there are lots of go fast goodies for the eco and i really think that the eco has more potential than the quad four type motors.it is a much newer design .we will just have to see if anyone takes it that far (fieroturbo is getting there)


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #105, 12-12-2006 10:52 PM
      82 TA at work : thanks for the tip and info on the solstice headers .i didnt notice that post until after i wrote my previous post.

fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #106, 12-12-2006 10:57 PM
      wftb: Did you ever get to verify if that solstice header was 165 bucks? oh, and was that Canadian or American dollars? Oh, and as to doing your turbo set up on the cheap, How much are you going to complete it for? or rather, do you have a budget in mind?



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #107, 12-13-2006 12:32 AM
      in my fiero the 2.2 ecotec out performs my old modified 2.8 v6 .that motor had a fiero store performance rebuild kit ,bored 30 over ,windage tray ,performance harmonic balancer ,pully kit ,and completely balanced rotating assembly and i ported the stock exhaust manifolds and put on a brand new cat.but the ecotec is still faster and it was running on a cobbled together exhaust system and a fuel pump running 14 psi lighter than a cavalier pump .the 2.2 ecotec weighs some where around 150 pounds less than a 2.8 and has stock hp ratings of between 140 and 148 hp depending on the car it is in.the stock fiero 2.8 v6 is rated at 140 hp but sure doesnt feel like it.the best car and driver could get out of a brand new 86 gt v6 4 speed with exactly the same options as mine(air , cruise ,pw ,pdl ,spoiler ,subwoofer etc ) was a 15.9 second 1/4mile time at 85 mph.observed fuel economy was only 16 mpg so i think they were thrashing it pretty good. i found a test by motor trend of a 4dr 2,2 eco powered cobalt and it did the 1/4 in 16.2 sec at 86.8 mph.that is in a 75 lb heavier car than a stock fiero with a v6 .also running all weather tires and not near as aerodynamic body as the fiero gt.so take the ecotec and put it in the fiero gt.power to weight ratio becomes 18.77 lbs per horsepower compared with 19.84 lbs. per horsepower with the old v6.and thats assuming the hp ratings for both motors are on the up and up .in the car and driver road test it says that the 2.8 has its maximum hp at 5200 rpm.i dont think too many stock 2.8 drivers will deny that the power drops off rapidly above 4800 rpm.on the other hand the power on my ecotec stays strong right up to the 6500 redline.i also now have 5 speeds where i used to have 4.
i looked at the pics of the 2.4 and they look great but they seem expensive.also you have drive by wire to contend with and my ecm / bcm combo will not run that motor.so unless they are willing to throw in the ecm /bcm and the rest of the cars wiring harness and the ignition with the key in it ,that motor would be useless to me.it wont even run in a 2.2 cobalt without the ecm / bcm and the ignition key assembly.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #108, 12-13-2006 12:38 AM
      i have given up on the idea of the solstice manifold for now .but those shorty solstice headers look really interesting and they look like they will clear everything.i dont think the long headers will work ,probably hit the transaxle.

82-T/A [At Work] MSG #109, 12-13-2006 11:50 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

in my fiero the 2.2 ecotec out performs my old modified 2.8 v6 .that motor had a fiero store performance rebuild kit ,bored 30 over ,windage tray ,performance harmonic balancer ,pully kit ,and completely balanced rotating assembly and i ported the stock exhaust manifolds and put on a brand new cat.but the ecotec is still faster and it was running on a cobbled together exhaust system and a fuel pump running 14 psi lighter than a cavalier pump .the 2.2 ecotec weighs some where around 150 pounds less than a 2.8 and has stock hp ratings of between 140 and 148 hp depending on the car it is in.the stock fiero 2.8 v6 is rated at 140 hp but sure doesnt feel like it.the best car and driver could get out of a brand new 86 gt v6 4 speed with exactly the same options as mine(air , cruise ,pw ,pdl ,spoiler ,subwoofer etc ) was a 15.9 second 1/4mile time at 85 mph.observed fuel economy was only 16 mpg so i think they were thrashing it pretty good. i found a test by motor trend of a 4dr 2,2 eco powered cobalt and it did the 1/4 in 16.2 sec at 86.8 mph.that is in a 75 lb heavier car than a stock fiero with a v6 .also running all weather tires and not near as aerodynamic body as the fiero gt.so take the ecotec and put it in the fiero gt.power to weight ratio becomes 18.77 lbs per horsepower compared with 19.84 lbs. per horsepower with the old v6.and thats assuming the hp ratings for both motors are on the up and up .in the car and driver road test it says that the 2.8 has its maximum hp at 5200 rpm.i dont think too many stock 2.8 drivers will deny that the power drops off rapidly above 4800 rpm.on the other hand the power on my ecotec stays strong right up to the 6500 redline.i also now have 5 speeds where i used to have 4.
i looked at the pics of the 2.4 and they look great but they seem expensive.also you have drive by wire to contend with and my ecm / bcm combo will not run that motor.so unless they are willing to throw in the ecm /bcm and the rest of the cars wiring harness and the ignition with the key in it ,that motor would be useless to me.it wont even run in a 2.2 cobalt without the ecm / bcm and the ignition key assembly.

I won't disagree with you on the positives of the 2.2, but is it possible that your 2.8 might not have been broken in properly? I had a 1985 Fiero GT, granted, it was a bare bones GT... but it was basically a stock 2.8 bottom end. The only thing it had was decked heads (because it had overheated at one point), that DID end up increasing the compression. It also had a 4.10:1 4-Speed from a Chevy Cavalier (originally mated to a 2.5). It did have a slightly improved exhaust, and ported exhaust manifolds... but other than that, the car was basically stock.

I ran a 14.82 at 89.3 miles an hour at Moroso Motorsports park. I bought it from a guy named John Altman who lived in Ohio. His family drove it down for me, I put 20k miles on it, and then sold it to someone who ALSO happened to live in Ohio (he flew down, and drove it back home).

When I ran it at Moroso, it had 168k miles on the bottom end!!! hahah...


I think the ecotec is great, I have one in my Solstice and know what it's capable of, but I had to defend the 2.8...



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #110, 12-13-2006 03:01 PM
      i also drove the same engine in the same car and there was a sizeable improvement over the motor after the rebuild .and you are right the new motor was probably going to loosen up a bit with a few more miles on it.it had a thousand miles on it when a cheap crane lifter went and chewed a lobe off the cam.the performance from the 2.8 just doesnt match the ecotec.and now that i have worked on a 2.8 i would never spend any money on one .it just has too many drawbacks ,the main one being that the oiling system is weak and with the lifter galleys being primarys ,you cant install a roller lifter and cam .i gave my 2.8 to my friend al to put into the 85 2m4 i sold him.he is buying new gm lifters and we are hoping to put the same crane model cam as i had in it.after it is broken in(again) i am going to get it dynoed to see what kind of hp it was really putting out.
in any production run of cars there is always a few that just get put together with closer tolerances in the engine and drivetrain and are just faster than the norm.you probably had one of those cars.but from reading this forum for the last 5 years i know that most unmodified 2.8 cars 1/4 mile times are usually high 15 to mid 17 seconds depending on the tranny used.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #111, 12-16-2006 10:04 AM
      anyway , i would like to keep this thread on topic .this is the ecotec swap thread ,not the lets argue about engines thread .there are plenty of threads that you can argue about engines on .
please restrict your posts to how to suggestions and if you are doing an eco swap feel free to post all about it on this thread .
i am working on the exhaust right now.i have decided to make use of my flex pipe that i have already paid for and go the up and over the tranny route .that way i can put the cat in the original location and the muffler can fit in the back ,and i can make use of at least one of the stock tips.the muffler is a single outlet ' cherry bomb ' i found at canadian tire in london ont.so if i hang both tips ,one will be for looks only.i am doing it on the cheap this way because next year i am going to turbo the motor and the exhaust will have to be changed again anyway.pics


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #112, 12-16-2006 10:09 AM
      the hole in the trunk will be covered over with sheet metal and i will refit the original carpet.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #113, 12-16-2006 10:12 AM
      there will be a lot of header wrap used to protect all the wiring and hoses.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #114, 12-26-2006 05:34 PM
      i have got my latest version of exhaust system working .i ran the pipes backward to the stock fiero .the pipe to the cat goes under the cradle the it goes up and over the tranny and to the top of the engine compartment and back down into the muffler mounted near the stock location . then i hooked a stock gt tip to the muffler and it exits on the drivers side in the stock location.the centre output of the ecotec is what makes all this necessary .all the piping has been wrapped with header wrap to protect the hoses and wiring .i overlapped more than normal and the covered it with duct tape .except for the pipe that comes right off the manifold ,you can grab any pipe with your bare hand and not get burnt .i need to add some pipe insulation over the fuel lines before i drive the car .
this is all a bit unorthodox , but it suits what i want until i turbo the motor and then i will get a custom stainles exhaust made .i have found a shop local to me that will make a set up ,headers and all. pics :


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #115, 12-26-2006 05:37 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #116, 12-26-2006 05:39 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #117, 12-26-2006 05:41 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #118, 12-29-2006 04:33 PM
      since we are not getting snow right know ,i decided to take the car out for a spin .i had a coolant leak develop at the allen head drain plug while the car was sitting ,and it let enough air in to cause an airlock . after i fixed the leak i couldnt get rid of the airlock.i dont know how i managed to to get rid of the airlock when i first drove the car ,but i had to make an extra fill neck up at the rad to get the air out.the water jacket on the ecotec goes quite a bit higher than the 2.8 did .add to that the fact that the cooling lines come out of the engine on the wrong side of the car resulting in the coolant flow going in the bottom and out the top of the rad ,and you understand why the airlock is hard to get rid of.i was thinking of making some crossover coolant tubes ,but even on the hottest days the car does not overheat the way it is .i will post a pic of my airlock fix after this post.so the cooling system works properly know .
but i had two disappointments today .my new exhaust that seemed to work fine in the garage ,runs way too hot on the road .the duct tape i put on over the header wrap is slowly melting off and i am a little worried about a fire.so its back to the drawing board ,too bad because it ran well and has a nice sound to it.i dont know how many layers of header wrap it would take to protect everything and the stuff is 80 $ a roll so i dont intend to find out.the other problem is the gas guage that seemed to be working did not move when i put more gas in today .it read 0 and moved up to 1/8 when i first put gas in after installing the cavalier pump and sending unit in the fiero tank ,but it seems to be stuck in that position . there seemed to be lots of room for the arm to go up and down ,but who knows .could be just a bad sender .i will have to run it out of gas sometime and see if it will give me a 0 indication.i am not dropping the tank again this year.
as far as the exhaust goes ,i may just have to lose the bottom of the trunk and keep every thing underneath and at the back.or i might bite the bullit and try a solstice manifold ,but i still think that would still require going up and over any way and that is where the problem is. losing some of the trunk seems to be a pretty common thing after an engine swap and i will still have enogh room for my golf clubs and a small overnight bag so it wont be a big deal.not really what i wanted to do but i cant leave it the way it is.


ICouldaBeenAV8 (donotbotherspamming@gmail.com) MSG #119, 12-31-2006 07:19 PM
      Header wrap is always going to get hotter than duct tape can stand. I would get it off of the header (the duct tape). A better header insulation would be a bag style of wrap which is not in direct contact with the header.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #120, 01-03-2007 03:55 PM
      yes that certainly is true.anyway ,i got our two sets of golf clubs and it didnt matter how i tried i could only get one set of clubs in the stock size trunk .so that made me realize i am not losing much by cutting off the lower part of the trunk to make more room for the exhaust. this will also mean that i dont have to put the cat in the stock location .
i also decided to turbocharge the car now instead of waiting till next year . it should be here on monday .it is for a subaru ,but looks easy to adapt to the cavalier manifold .with the turbo ,i hope to be able to run with a cat and no muffler .thats what they do on remote turbo camaros and they dont sound too loud .so now all the exhaust is back off of the car while i wait for my turbo.and i cut off the bottom of the trunk .pics when i get the turbo.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #121, 01-04-2007 04:26 PM
      i cut the bottom of the trunk off today .i left the part in front of the rear bumper as this wont interfere with anything .there is lots of room for the turbo and exhaust now .i am going to put a cross brace at the back of the trunk and then put sheet metal across to make a flat floor .the cross brace will be 'l' channel steel .this will give a place to hang exhaust brackets from.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #122, 01-04-2007 04:29 PM
     

niemann99 MSG #123, 01-04-2007 09:05 PM
      BTW, the guys that make the Solstice headers are less than a half hours drive from me. I'm going to check them out this weekend if I get time. From the pictures, the headers ( and the Solstice exh manifolds for that matter ) look like they would dump out just above the differential if installed on a FWD or Fiero with Ecotec.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #124, 01-11-2007 04:04 PM
      let the boosting begin!
subaru turbo from an impreza (i think) now to make some adapter plates.


fourpoint9 (stevenmsimpson@comcast.net) MSG #125, 01-11-2007 06:12 PM
      cool site-
http://www.gm.com/company/gmtunersource/html/ho...


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #126, 01-14-2007 04:51 AM
      i made a cardboard template of the turbo's exhaust inlet and then put it up against the the ecotecs exhaust manifold outlet to see if they can be mated without an adapter plate,and the answer is yes.all i have to do is drill and tap 3 holes and the subaru turbo will bolt right on to the eco stock exhaust manifold ,thanks to the subaru's small three bolt inlet pattern.so the only adapter plate i will have to make will be for the exhaust outlet side .pics later today hopefully .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #127, 01-16-2007 03:44 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #128, 01-16-2007 03:47 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #129, 01-16-2007 03:49 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #130, 01-16-2007 04:09 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #131, 01-16-2007 04:12 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #132, 01-16-2007 04:37 PM
      now that the turbo is bolted up ,the real work begins .and a lot of decisions .i found a lot of threads on turbocharging ecotecs on www. ecotecforum.com .the confusing part is what system to go with .i just spent two hours reading about the hptuners system.it sounds like the best bet ,but i am worried that i may still need other things to make it work properly.alternately ,i can go with a relatively simple mechanical fuel management system like an aeromotive #0271313107 (supposedly a bolt on)or similar vortech mechanical fmu .i am planning on controlling detonation with a water/methanol injection system .again a lot of choices and prices depending on method of control .i was looking at the snow units sold by sumitt racing.i am planning on running bigger injectors ,but a lot of posts tell me about problems with too big injectors , so i am going to try the stock injectors first and see how they work and then decide on upgrade size .this turbo will support 370 hp but my stock connecting rods have an upper limit of about 300 hp . so i am planning about a 10 psi max boost. hopefully that will yield about 200 hp and not too many driveability problems or the need for another fuel pump.
anyway , back to figuring out the plumbing .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #133, 01-28-2007 10:00 PM
      everything is going fairly smoothly but the whole job is being held back while i wait for more parts to arrive.i want to fire this thing up but i still have not got the fitting to feed the oil to the turbo .apparently it will not be shipped til the 2nd of feb.lots of plumbing on turbo

i have relocated the maf and vacuum signal to the fuel pressure regulator to the non boosted part of the intake system .i will need to add a check valve in between the valve coer and the airbox on the 5/8 tube that joins them so that i wont be pushing boost in to the valve cover.


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #134, 01-28-2007 10:24 PM
      Good luck with the turbo! Im MS stuff should be here this week, hopefully I can get started on that. Sometime I would like to get a count of us Ecotec swap guys. I know you fieroturbo, the guy that has a website (name escapes me right now) and me that are doing a swap. Is there anyone else you know of?

BTW thanks for answering my q's!


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #135, 01-28-2007 11:47 PM
      there is dejayee (i dont think i spelled it right) ,rodo with a really nice automatic and myself have running cars .there is another pff member besides fiero turbo who is also doing a turbo but he hasnt posted in a while .he is in the U.S. navy like fiero turbo and is away for long stretches.there is also kmunson's friend who is going to make and sell kits .there is a thread about it in the chat section .some really nice looking work ,and his car must be close to running.

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #136, 01-29-2007 03:41 PM
      Well I hope I can make the top ten at least. I got word that I ***should*** have my ecm stuff this week. I will be putting the adapter to the motor and mounting it in the car attached to the tranny but no flywheel or clutch. This way I can line it up and make the mounts for it. I hope I can have the motor running this by this time next month.

To keep it on topic, is the MAP the sensor that the wires run with the fuel injector wires, just behind the TB? I found my airbox too, since I dont want to use that, do you think I will be ok with just putting a hole in the intake tube I am using ( its a CAI off my old cavailer)?

Also do you still have the powersteering pump attached? I took mine off and need some sort of cover for it, I made one but its light sheet metal that I doubt would hold.

Thanks


WrenchingPilot MSG #137, 01-30-2007 06:30 AM
      Hey Wtfb,

Did the Cavalier axles swap right into the Fiero hubs?


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #138, 01-30-2007 12:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by WrenchingPilot:

Hey Wtfb,

Did the Cavalier axles swap right into the Fiero hubs?


I believe he used the fiero axles w/ the cavailer transmission, the axles are interchangeable from what I know



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #139, 01-30-2007 05:15 PM
      the plug for themaf sensor comes out of the group of wires that goes to the ingnition module on the valve cover.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #140, 01-30-2007 05:32 PM
      i coudnt get a good picture of the sensor itself ,but all i did was take the grommett from the air box that holds the sensor in place and drilled a 5/8 hole in my new intake tube and the gromett will fit in the hole and the sensor pushes right in .
the axles from any manual tranny fiero will fit right in to the cavalier 5 speed transmission.you just have to get the tranny located properly in the cradle and they are the right length .i used the cavalier rubber mounts and fabbed my own mounting steel that was welded to the fiero cradle .i found there is much less drivetrain shake compared to the fiero muonting system .the cavalier mounts seem to brace against each other better.there are pics at the start of the thread.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #141, 01-30-2007 05:38 PM
      i took the power steering pump off and covered it with a piece of 3/16 plate steel i cut to match the flange on the pump .used rtv for a gasket and bolted it on .there is almost no oil pressure here ,it just bleeds out enough to lube the pump bearing so the rtv(hitemp black) works well.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #142, 02-05-2007 06:48 PM
      i have made up a plate i need to route the spent exhaust gases out of the turbo .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #143, 02-05-2007 06:51 PM
      the hole in the middle of the plate is threaded so i can bolt this header flange stub to start the exhaust system .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #144, 02-05-2007 07:02 PM
      i also got the blowoff valve i am going to use .in the sumitt website it is listed as a vortech part .but it is a bosch part .this was the cheapest blow off valve i could find .when the pressure gets to high when you snap the throttle shut ,this valve will open and the pressure will get recirculated back to the pre turbo intake tube .the pressure that it blows off at seems to be controlled by a vacuum line that goes in to the top of the valve .not sure yet how i will hook that up .

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #145, 02-08-2007 02:30 PM
      I know your doing turbo now, but if anyone else needs an exhaust header this looks like a good replacement style
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymot...QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It looks like it comes straight down, how far it goes towards the trunk maybe a problem.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #146, 02-10-2007 09:34 PM
      the engine is running again and i have boost now.how much i dont know as i dont have a boost guage yet .i have to relocate the valve cover vent to the vacuum side of the intake as the valve cover was getting presureized by the turbo .so some more tubes to run.the plumber's nightmare so far :

AquaHusky (david.t.cisneros@gmail.com) MSG #147, 02-10-2007 10:46 PM
      Watch that ICM. Those things are sensative little buggers. There's a recall on the 03 and older units. They like to short out on ya and leave you stranded. Bad ground in several places on them. Might be why GM uses a dist on thier turbo race engine.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #148, 02-10-2007 11:01 PM
      thats good to know .i will make sure nothing is touching the icm .thanks

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #149, 02-12-2007 01:36 AM
      tonight i had a magor setback on my turbo project .the seals on my brand new tubocharger are leaking oil ! i dont know if they were bad from the start or if i had a blockage on my return line .it is supposedly under warranty so i will wait and see what the dealer says .so now the turbo is off again and work is halted .i thought buying a new turbo would avoid these problems.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #150, 02-20-2007 11:41 PM
      i bump

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #151, 02-21-2007 08:31 AM
      i got the turbo to stop leaking oil today .turns out i had an obstruction in the oil return line .once i opened up the hole and put a bigger fitting on , it stopped leaking .the people that sold it to me told me it is designed to leak if oil return flow gets restricted.
so today i am going to put on the exhaust .i would like to take it for a ride , but the roads are covered with salt and sand and slush .we are getting a thaw now after 5 weeks of almost daily snow .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #152, 02-21-2007 03:29 PM
      the turbo still leaks a littl ,but just while it warms up.hopefully this wont ruin my cat converter .next time i will buy a genuine name brand turbo instead of a cheap knock off .
the exhaust system is now complete and it sounds great and everything is nicely tucked up where the bottom of the trunk used to be .i have covered the hole in the trunk with some sheet metal.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #153, 02-21-2007 03:30 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #154, 02-21-2007 03:32 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #155, 02-21-2007 03:34 PM
      i really need to clean up my garage .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #156, 02-24-2007 05:28 AM
      since it has been so cold working in the garage these days,we are going to cancun mexico for some warming up .then i am going golfing in florida with my brothers and some friends .back in two weeks .

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #157, 02-24-2007 07:57 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

since it has been so cold working in the garage these days,we are going to cancun mexico for some warming up .then i am going golfing in florida with my brothers and some friends .back in two weeks .


What airline are you flying on? I fly 3 Detroit - Cancun - Detroit (Sun, Mon, Tue) with USA 3000 Airlines. I have not looked on a map to see exactly where you are located in Canada. We get many Canadians that fly with us from Windsor.

He must be gone already. Oh well. He lives about halfway between Toronto and Detroit so I might see him tomorrow and never know it.

[This message has been edited by Hudini (edited 02-24-2007).]

Primaris MSG #158, 02-26-2007 12:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:



I can't tell for sure in this picture but your oil return line does not look to be down hill. If it isn't this would account for the burning oil.


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #159, 02-26-2007 12:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Hudini:


What airline are you flying on? I fly 3 Detroit - Cancun - Detroit (Sun, Mon, Tue) with USA 3000 Airlines. I have not looked on a map to see exactly where you are located in Canada. We get many Canadians that fly with us from Windsor.

He must be gone already. Oh well. He lives about halfway between Toronto and Detroit so I might see him tomorrow and never know it.



He needs to come back since hes the only guy here that can help me! lol i guess im on my own till fieroturbo or he comes back



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #160, 03-13-2007 09:17 AM
      well i am back .we flew westjet out of hamilton ontario .great little airport ,no need for shuttles and we got there 3 hours early .an hour early would have been more than enough.went to gran bahia principe coba resort in the mayan riviera near cancun mexico.then home and off to orlando fl to golf with 2 of my brothers and a friend.great trips .i need to go back to work for a rest.
the oil return line still points slightly uphill and this is why it still leaks on startup.i tried twisting the turbo(it is joined together with a u channel strap) but then the air outlet hits the frame .i think i can take the oil outlet tube off and cut it shorter and this will give me more of a downhill slope and the problem should be solved .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #161, 03-13-2007 06:41 PM
      i managed to rotate the turbo and now i have a downhill slope on the oil return line but the leaking problem is still there.i am not ready to give up on the subaru turbo just yet ,but for those of you thinking of doing a turbo ,i think the subaru is not a good choice .to get the oil to flow properly ,i am pretty sure the return pipe has to point straight down . that would require a custom manifold , one expense i am trying to avoid . i may try running a pump on the return line to create a vacuum but this might be just good money after bad .the only electric oil pump i have found so far cost 175.00 at summit racing.i am going to try ebay and see if i can find something cheaper.i cant run the car the way it is because it is also leaking oil into the intake charge pipe.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #162, 03-13-2007 07:01 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #163, 03-14-2007 01:57 PM
      when i did all my research into doing the turbo install ,i completely missed finding anything about turbos that are mounted in non OEM positions.since my turbo is not mounted at all similar to the way it would be in a subaru ,the oil will not drain properly and causes the seals to leak into the exhaust .the drain pipe needs to go straight down in order to drain properly and this is impossible using the stock cavalier exhaust manifold .this is also a problem with all low mount and rear mount tubos , as i found out while looking into scavenger pumps .i found a site showing a rear mounted turbo cavalier and he has used a shurflo pump for 15000 miles with no problems .so i called our local TSC store and they have one in stock.so i am going over tomorow to get a pump and i will have it installed by friday .and the snow is now melting so i should be able to test drive it on sunday(unless it snows)

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #164, 03-14-2007 02:16 PM
      Lookin good, yea we had a 70 degree day yesterday!!! woohoo!!! didnt get any work done tho.

You gonna get any videos of that thing running, I bet it sounds nice


Primaris MSG #165, 03-14-2007 02:35 PM
      Try a much larger return line. 2x the input line is a rule of thumb.

(I thought I stated this reply already with a link too. If I did or if I didn't I'm blaming it something or someone else cause I can't be to blame!)


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #166, 03-14-2007 03:10 PM
      i tried a bigger return line already.the return line improvement changed it from leaking all the time to just leaking till the engine oil is fully warmed up .i think the pump is the only way to fix the problem .
the engine has a nice sound to it and it is quieter than it was with the muffler.the only difference is it makes more noise when you back off the throttle quick .but i should be able to fix that when i do some proper tuning.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #167, 03-17-2007 04:12 PM
      i hooked up an oil return line pump and the oil leak problem is now solved .i havent driven the car with the turbo on it yet but it is driveable now.i still have to repair my leaking cv boot and make my new centre consule and then it will be on the road again.

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #168, 03-17-2007 05:26 PM
      Looking forward to some reviews of it

sYkboy MSG #169, 03-17-2007 05:43 PM
      I feel the ugly monsters of envy and jealousy stirring!



AquaHusky (david.t.cisneros@gmail.com) MSG #170, 03-19-2007 12:11 PM
      I just did a quick glance thru, and I wanted to say something about the ECOtec. You'll NEED a 1 1/4" socket for the oil cap. I just got one and changed the oil in my VUE and I was about 30 minutes faster doing it that way instead of trying to fit a wrench in that tight space. Just thought I'd pass that along for anyone wanting to do this swap.

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #171, 03-19-2007 04:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by sYkboy:

I feel the ugly monsters of envy and jealousy stirring!


Pshh maybe but in my books WTFB is right up there next to God and Chuck Norris! Hes my hero!


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #172, 03-19-2007 09:23 PM
      chuck norris - thats way over the top !

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #173, 03-27-2007 11:48 PM
      i put the car back together today and took it for a ride .the blow off valve has quite a distinct sound to it.but i did not get to open it up because i got a mile down the road and the boost pipe blew off the airbox .it was pretty dark out by then so i put it back in the garage.i tightened the clamp on the pipe and it should hold now.i had to build a new centre consule to cover my shifter mods and finishing that took most of today .so here are some more pics:

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #174, 03-27-2007 11:49 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #175, 03-27-2007 11:51 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #176, 03-29-2007 07:59 AM
      got the pipe back on and have driven the car for the last 2 days.i cant floor it because the boost causes knocking .i was expecting this but i wanted to drive the car before tuning so i would know what i needed to buy.you can feel the extra power in top gear.so i have a new fuel pressure reg. coming and a methanol injection kit coming.that will be a start on the tuning process.

FieroCustom (borchard.j.m@gmail.com) MSG #177, 03-29-2007 10:38 AM
      Yay! You're BACK! YAY! I just checked and YAY! WFTB, you should have a pm waiting for you with a question about the master/slave issue. I finally recieved the Cobalt master cylinder and flywheel!(Thanks Monster Parts!) And I saw that you mentioned my swap on page 4, cool. Yes I'm away often even when my ship is inport. My department (reactor department) is on 2 section duty meaning that I get 16 hours off out of every 48 with a 2hr commute both ways from Everett WA to Bremerton WA. I'm still looking for parts that I need as I make slow progress on my swap. I had to go to a dealership to get my electronic accelerator pedal to control my throttle body since my engine has the fly-by-wire controls. And I've still got the A/C lines issue to resolve.

John

[This message has been edited by FieroCustom (edited 03-29-2007).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #178, 03-29-2007 11:04 PM
      more pics

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #179, 03-29-2007 11:06 PM
     

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #180, 03-29-2007 11:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by FieroCustom:

Yay! You're BACK! YAY! I just checked and YAY! WFTB, you should have a pm waiting for you with a question about the master/slave issue. I finally recieved the Cobalt master cylinder and flywheel!(Thanks Monster Parts!) And I saw that you mentioned my swap on page 4, cool. Yes I'm away often even when my ship is inport. My department (reactor department) is on 2 section duty meaning that I get 16 hours off out of every 48 with a 2hr commute both ways from Everett WA to Bremerton WA. I'm still looking for parts that I need as I make slow progress on my swap. I had to go to a dealership to get my electronic accelerator pedal to control my throttle body since my engine has the fly-by-wire controls. And I've still got the A/C lines issue to resolve.

John



Welcome to the ranks hehe, do you have a build thread yet? Im just in need of my flywheel before I can start mine up


FieroCustom (borchard.j.m@gmail.com) MSG #181, 03-30-2007 07:35 AM
      Fosgatecavy98, I had a build thread, but then I got sent of to Virginia for training then when I came back the big wigs at the shipyard in Bremerton decided that everyone needed to work 115 hours a week in preperation for getting all the work done on the Uss Abraham Lincoln. So we've pretty much been working every other day for months on end. I've been taking pictures though. I'll be putting them up sometime. The most progress I made was the first couple and the last day of leave I took. I started fabbing the mounts yesterday, have some nice pics such as this:

Now I'm off to work again, hopefully I get to come home tonight.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #182, 04-03-2007 04:13 PM
      i relocated the blow off valve to the top of the air box because i was getting the deadly "whistling sewing machine" sound that meant it was not opening when i closed the throttle to shift .i capped off the hose where the bov was before and tapped that plug for my boost guage .since i have still not received my new fpr and methanol injection kit ,i left the hole open so the car builds a small amount of boost for now .even with the hole ,it still builds enough boost to cause knock at about 4500 rpm.but it is much easier to drive know.i picked up a gtech pro ss to guage the improvement once i tune the setup.no need to drive a 100 miles to the nearest drag strip now


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #183, 04-07-2007 04:12 PM
      it started snowing 3 days ago and hasnt stopped.so the fiero is back in the garage and i decided to clean up the turbo plumbing and get rid of the stock air box .the air box (now that i have had a good look at it) only serves two functions :a place to mount the maf sensor and vacuum line to the fpr and intake noise reduction .so i dont need it anymore and it takes up a lot of space .with it removed you can see how there is lots of room for the supercharged motor .the airbox sticks out from the engine a lot further than a supercharger does.some of you may be wondering why i am using plumbing pipe for this installation .simple: its cheap and it works.i didnt want to buy fancy silicone elbows and chrome pipes until i am satisfied with the setup .so i have less than a 100.00 in my turbo plumbing so far and it still isnt exactly what i want yet ,but it is getting closer.





wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #184, 04-10-2007 04:09 PM
      i got my water/methanol injection system today ,and my aeromotive LT1 style fuel pressure regulator .the fpr responds to boost as well as vacuum ,something the stock one cant do .the injection system comes with an electronic variable controller and a 150 psi pump .i have to work tonight so installation day is tomorow .so i will finally be able to use some of the boost i have available .i hooked up my Gtech and i will post some numbers when i test it out.cost of the turbo setup so far :
turbo 599.00
plumbing 100.00
fpr 159.95
snow injection kit 389.95
subaru gaskets 48.00
plate steel 19.00
misc nuts an bolts taps drill bits glue ~100.00
oil evac pump 116.00
braided line , rubber hoses , clamps and fittings ~100.00
total 1631.90 so now i have spent more on turbocharging than the whole engine /tranny swap cost .pics




wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #185, 04-18-2007 03:01 PM
      i have spent some time tuning the motor using the aeromotive fpr and the methanol injection kit .i can now run it to the redline in first and second gears without detonation .once i hit third gear the pinging starts at 5000 rpm .so i am not ready for the drag strip yet .i have some 32 lb fuel injectors on order and that should get rid of the last of my detonation problems .the car runs amazing well .it idles a little rougher than it did before but out on the road it is very smooth .and it is still being controlled by the stock computer .i am very impressed at how well this engine runs without much in the way of tuning .
did i mention the car is fast? it really throws me back in the seat now .i hope to get a 0 to 60 time with my gtech tonight .there is a nice flat stretch on the way to work that should work to get a run in.no one lives along this stretch so it wont attract attention .owning the only running fiero gt in bruce county does have its disadvantages .everybody knows whos car it is if i get reported !
the whole driving experience is different now .this is my first turbocharged car .it is really neat to hear the turbo spool up and the rush of air going to the intake is something i had not experienced before .the sound from the blow off valve when you shift adds to the mechanical mayhem going on now. it is a little noisy without a muffler ,so i hope to add one soon .i ordered some tight mandrel bends from summit and these will arrive with my bigger fuel injectors .
pics of the fpr and boost cooler installed:



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #186, 04-18-2007 04:29 PM
      Have I told you how much I envy you yet cuz your my hero. Cant wait to hear the 0-60 times,

I'll bet its in at least the 6 second range


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #187, 04-18-2007 11:37 PM
      first run i bogged it off the line and ran 0-60 in 6.62 sec.second run i smoked the tires !(kumho ecstas 16"245/ 55r)i need a little practise at drag racing so i am going to grand bend when it opens.funny thing about my first ran is i hit 58 mph in the mid 5sec range and then the graph flatlined while i shifted to third .on my next run i am not going to use first gear and see how i do .second run was bad(7.6)but it said i produced 189 hp at the wheels.

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #188, 04-19-2007 12:56 PM
      Thats quick! I would assume you may be able to get into the 5 second range soon. Get some videos!!!

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #189, 04-19-2007 03:26 PM
      thanks for the replys ,fosgatecavy.i think there is more interest in what we are doing over on the ecotec forum ,but i can only post pics here for now so i am still going to post most of my stuff here for now .i do have a lot of people reading this thread ,just not a lot of posters .
i did two more runs today .first i tried a second gear launch .that didnt work ,too much bogging .0-60 =high 7's .then i tried another first gear launch .still bogged it a bit ,better than yesterday ,but still room for improvement .but launching that little bit better shaved over 4/10's off my time .i did a 6.19 0-60 time .with some more practise to eliminate the slight bog coming off the line ,i should be able to get in to the 5's .the hp figure on that run came out at 160 .i then looked at how i have the gtech setup and realized i forgot to add my weight(185) to the weight of the car .so hp is probably on the low side .i got the highest hp (189) on the run that i spun the tires on.pics of gtech:


on the way up on the best run i did 0-10 .647 , 0-20 1.587 , 0-30 2.367 , shift ito second @34.8 mph 2.84sec .graph is then a flat line until 3.425 sec .what seemed like a quick shift actaully stalled my acceleration for almost 1/2 of a second
0-40 3.910 , 0-50 5.034 , 0-60 6.193 , shift into 3 @61.4 mph 6.433 sec not accelerating again til 7.102 (i gotta build an automatic car!) a waste of 7/10's , 0-70 8.505 ,0-76.6 9.608 secs.that ended my run cause thats when the detonation gets too bad to keep it floored .
but what a great tool the gtech is .it shows all the areas i need to improve on and you can anilyze to no end with all the stats it spits out.when i go to the strip ,the gtech will be along for the ride .
i am going to go on some car mag sites and see by comparison what a 0-60 time of 6.19 equates to in the quarter .it will only be ballpark but keep in mind on each of these runs to avoid detonation i use a 1/4 of my cooler bottle .so when i get my larger injectors i will run quite a bit faster .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #190, 04-19-2007 04:02 PM
      i did some reviewing of the data of my run that i got the wheel spin on .i forgot that what totally ruined that run was that i managed to hit the rev limiter at the end of first gear .my 0-40 time was 2.789 sec .that is a full 1.21 sec faster than at the same time as my 6.19 sec run.maybe a little wheelspin is the way to go afterall.

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #191, 04-19-2007 07:02 PM
      Thats pretty cool, that transmission sounds like its geared almost like what my old cavailer was
1st 35
2nd 55
3rd 85
4th 108+

Yeah, I am really quiet sad there isnt more interest in ecotecs anymore, i hope sooner or later there will be because in IMO these are far superior than 3800sc and I think your setup proves it.

If you need help posting pictures let me know I can show you or post them for you.

And by those times I think your putting down much more horsepower than 189, the cobalt ss (205hp) does 0-60 in 6.4, although I would assume a fiero would out-launch a cobalt anyday.


Ravant MSG #192, 04-19-2007 08:44 PM
      There's still an interest, just a less out-spoken one. There's a lot of R&D that needs to go into some of these Ecotec swaps. (Like wiring and such. Especially for the later VVT ecotec motors.) I'm going to be starting a build thread once the new cradle arrives and I can start taking measurements and a list of what exactly I need to go from automatic to manual, etc.

Also - a Fiero would out-launch a Cobalt any day indeed. It's also lighter by a couple hundred pounds. A stock LSJ would leave the Fiero faster than the Cobalt with a stock LSJ.

[This message has been edited by Ravant (edited 04-19-2007).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #193, 04-19-2007 09:13 PM
      the hp rating is off because of the wrong weight being in there .according to what i can find out from from road test data ,the car as is (with the bigger injectors) should pull about 13.5 in the quarter with some launch practise on my part .i really think this is a great motor for a fiero .the more good numbers i can post ,the more believers there will be.

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #194, 04-19-2007 11:52 PM
      Well as far as wiring goes, I have mine megasquirted, since the motor is not in the car I cannot test it all together but I have done all the major sensors and inputs for it except the ignition, because I have it mounted to the motor now. Extremely cleaned and took about a day of sodering. Im working on this setup to be able to be plug in play for any 2.2 na ecotec put into a fiero. It is extremly nice setup and allows it to be tuned and upgraded later on.

Anyways, WTFB you have any date yet as when you will be going to the track? And do you have the stock 2.2 ecotec injectors right now or the LSJ injectors?


Ravant MSG #195, 04-20-2007 02:16 AM
      Right - but what happens if you wanted to be able to tune with the continuously variable valve timing of the newer ecotecs? I don't think megasquirt offers a module to do so. You'd have to do a lot of work on wiring to make the harnesses work in these cars. I'm going to start sometime either this month or next in designing a harness to allow the stock systems out of a cobalt to work in a Fiero. Could take a few days, weeks, or even months, but with the ability to phase the cam lobes up to 90* each, I'm going to have to say, that offers a LOT of tuning potential. (I don't mean to thread-hijack here, but I'm just trying to consolidate all the ecotec info towards one thread, so most of it is not lost.)

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #196, 04-20-2007 04:50 AM
      i think incorporating the cobalt harness into the fiero and making the two harnesses work together would be great .then you could leave the interiour all original .on the other hand i tend to think of my fiero as a platform to be modified so i did not try to make the fiero harness work with the cavalier harness ,i just used the cavalier harness and ecm bcm and ignition switch and instrument cluster etc .the cavy ignition switch is no longer used,just hidden under the consul.now that i am experiencing the kind of power you can get from a 2.2 ,the v v t 2.4 varient doesnt interest me that much.they are a little harder to find ,and have more electronic gadgetry as you know.
on another note ,i saw some 1/4 mile times for the cobalt ss on motor trends website and 0-60 was 6.0 and1/4 was 14.4 sec @93.4 mph .i think i can go 13.5 based on my 0-40 time on one of my runs .
i havent got my bigger injectors yet so i cant go to the strip yet.i dont think they open till may anyway.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #197, 04-22-2007 10:32 PM
      bump

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #198, 04-22-2007 10:43 PM
      I agree, the VVT would be nice, but those motors are much harder to find for the price of a 2.2 ecotec. I would love to get ahold of the 2.4L crank for the extra stroke but the ring on them is not supported by MS yet, it can still be done but its harder to do.

WTFB, I cannot wait to hear some 1/4 mile times!!! I forgot to metion, on the ecotec forums people are selling the LSJ cheap, I beleieve everyone of them that goes Stage 2 upgrade they get to keep the stock injectors, not sure what size they are but quiet larger.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #199, 04-23-2007 12:04 AM
      i started another thread on the chat board to get a rise out of people but the gist of it is this:i really know very little about tuning and my car already runs really well .how fast would an eco fiero go with a pro tuner calling the shots? dont like 4 cylinder cars?get over it ,or get left behind .

sYkboy MSG #200, 04-23-2007 01:09 PM
      ^^^^ Easy there spanky!

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #201, 04-23-2007 02:02 PM
      As I see it, the ecotec will go much farther than the 3800 series motors. Granted stock for stock probably not, unless they get pushed in corners then I think the weight difference will really shine. With the torque not as low as it is with the bigger motors the trannys should hold up more, also. I can say this With all the weight of the ecotec in the back of my fiero it has a nice front rake that was not there when i had the 3800 in there.

I think we should start a revolution!
Wooo Ecotec for the win!!!


sYkboy MSG #202, 04-23-2007 02:12 PM
      All you have to do is look at the GM drag racing team to know that the Eco is capable of incredible power. Looking at the GM build book makes it even easier to see that they will become more popular. Wonder how long it will take for someone to have a "kit" to make it more accessible by the average owner?

Ravant MSG #203, 04-23-2007 03:18 PM
      Honestly, with the help of the other ecotec guys here, I'd like to eventually attempt a few different kit levels, or at least offer a parts list of what you should get for the swap.

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #204, 04-23-2007 03:25 PM
      Well that was my plan (Plug in play ECM), but there wasnt much of an interest, once I get my spacer made and start the motor I will go from there.



Ravant MSG #205, 04-23-2007 03:52 PM
      The issue at hand, at this point, is getting any of the newer VVT ecotecs to work well with a (relatively) easy-to-do kit. I think the majority of my time working on the Fiero will be R&D rather than actual design.

BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #206, 04-23-2007 06:32 PM
      Curious why you went with such a small turbo as the TD04 13T (WRX turbo). It will spool pretty quick but it cant hold boost well and has been known to boost creep. You could send it to Jerry at www.boostplanet.com to get his monster port. That would help alot.
Anyway, nice progress. Glad to see its coming along. What are you using to trigger the meth injection and is it progressive? If not, look into SMC enterprises progressive controller. I used it on my old 420hp WRX with great results.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #207, 04-23-2007 07:53 PM
      actually the turbo choice was based on this :it originally was designed to feed a 2.0 litre motor ,mines a 2.2 ,not much difference in size ,and it looked easy to install .not much science involved there .this is actually a big 16g from turbochargers .com .it is designed to be an upgrade to a stock WRX .it spools up really quick and what is turbo lag anyway?there is no lag here.
the main drawback doing it the way i have is that you have to use an oil scavenger pump .i have to run it for 20 seconds before and after driving or else i put down a 007 style smoke screen.
the bost system is progressive ,a snow unit with an electronic boost control .you set the start spray and the full pressure spray at boost levels you pick yourself .i start at 3 and full on is 6 .this is a bit excessive until i get my bigger injectors .
i am amazed at how well the stock computer handles everything .it is very civilised to drive when you dont have your foot in it .
and it does handle a lot better .i think between the lighter weight of the motor and the loss of a lot of ancillary devices (the original exhaust system and assorted plumbing ,the guage cluster weighed 10 lbs to about 1/2 lb for the cavalier etc) i have shaved off around 150 lbs .when i do an acceleration run ,the car sits dead flat ,no up and down motion .i guess i cant really say how it would perform with stock suspension ,because i have tubulars and coilovers all the way around .
there are kit pieces available to make it all simple .his name is roger thelin ,he had a car at daytona this year .contact is kmunson56 on pff .thanks for posting .


BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #208, 04-24-2007 08:24 AM
      So you are going to stick with the stock ECU to run it? How much boost do you plan on running? I'm not sure if you have the older non VVT ecotec or not but if you have the newer one, I would have assumed the Solstice GXP ECU would have been the one to go with. Personally a piggy-back or stand alone is the way to go. Also be very careful it doesnt take much det to destroy a ring land on non-forged pistons.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #209, 04-24-2007 11:18 AM
      2004 non VVT 2.2 litre .the only VVT models are the 2.4 and the 2.0 turbo motor.i havent seen a 2.2 listed as VVT yet .i am planning on 10 -12-psi boost this year and the stock ecu looks like it will handle it .next year i am getting the hahn racecraft portfueler system .it has its own controller .

BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #210, 04-24-2007 04:14 PM
      10-12psi!??? What are you doing to reduce the ignition timing and add fuel while under boost?

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #211, 04-24-2007 10:53 PM
      the bigger fuel injectors and the aeromotive FPR (it increases fuel pressure as boost goes up) should handle the need for more fuel .i have no way to retard timing right now .i take things in small steps though .i havent watched my boost guage during a 0-60 run but during a throttle roll on, it seems to be building a little more than 8 psi. i will put in the bigger injectors ,do some throttle roll ons and see where the detonation occurs at present boost levels .i think at 8 psi ,i wont have any problems (it doesnt ping that much now ,but i dont want to blow the motor so i have not tried a 1/4 mile run yet .hahn racecraft stage 2 kit includes a 100 psi pump , 6:1 FPR ,and bigger injectors .they said it would easily handle 10 psi .i am hoping that my methanol injection will be the added ingredient to the setup i already have (when the injectors arrive) .it is not hard to control detonation when the engine is only 18 iches behind your ears .you hear it start to knock and you back off the throttle .its always disapointing but then you plan your next step .so far i am happy with my progress .
i only know about hp tuners as a method to control spark timing and injector flow and it is available for the 2004 cavalier ecotec that is in my car .i just dont want to spend that money unless i have to .the hahn racecraft port fueler system is around 2000.00 and it will handle boost levels above 20 psi but then you have to look at what the con rods will handle (i am told 350 hp with a turbo and no nitrous) and i am sure head gaskets will start blowing long before 20 psi .
a piggy back controller might be the answer for spark retard but i dont know what is even available .i will find out what i need on friday ,my injectors should be here thursday.thanks for posting .


BV MotorSports (sbvincent@yahoo.com) MSG #212, 04-25-2007 09:11 AM
      Get some way to reduce ignition advance under boost and you'd be well on your way to control det. When tuning you want to nail the AFR to a set number (say 11.5-11.8 @ WOT) and then dial in as much ignition advance as the engine will tolerate w/o knock. I'm sure you know if you are running meth or alcohol your wideband will need to be recalculated for stoichiometric.
Dont just count on the ECU's ability for knock control. Most N/A engines converted to forced induction cant react fast enough to prevent damage. My evo has a fantastic knock control system and has saved many a 4G63 from poor tunes. You may want to pick up a knock link because if you can hear knock... its pretty bad.

[This message has been edited by BV MotorSports (edited 04-25-2007).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #213, 04-27-2007 03:56 PM
      well its friday and the mail came and still no new injectors .so developement work on the motor is stalled for now.i tried to fix my remote trunk release today but that was a nogo too.replaced the switch and it still doesnt work .the solinoid works when i hotwire it .i tried finding the relay that is in this circuit but i ended up with the wrong one .any one know how many wires connect to that relay ,and an exact location?
i wanted to show a few pics of my suspension and brakes .i have the RCC 11" brake kit and coilover kit with tubular a arms in the back and held sport suspension with RCC11" brakes .the pics show the original 8" 260lb springs on the front .i changed to 10" 300lb springs after because i found the 8" springs bottomed out .if you are going with 8" springs in the front you need a spring rate of 400 lbs to stop bottoming out . the car corners very well ,no diving on braking or nose up accelaration .it still jumps around a bit on bumpy roads but most fieros do this as soon as you put on wide tires .



tres are kumho ecstas 205/45/16 front and245/50/16 rears .no snap throttle oversteer problem with this combo .car is very neutral handling .i can induce oversteer with extra throttle .


Bruce (biden@pacbell.net) MSG #214, 04-30-2007 12:39 AM
      What is (are) the advantage(s) of using the Ecotec engine??

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #215, 04-30-2007 08:46 AM
      i can only give you my reasons ,here they are :
it is an in production motor and readily available new or used
state of the art 4 valve dohc design
aluminum block and head with steel liners ,much lighter(100 -125 lbs)than the 2.8
more power than the 2.8 ,even without mods
easily modified to whatever horsepower level you want
use the tranny that it came with and get a complete new drivetrain that is much stronger than anything a fiero came with .

for me ,this has been a fun project that has greatly improved the speed ,handling ,and reliability of the car .it already went pretty fast without the turbo ,but i cant resist seeing how far i can take this car .as far as an all out performance motor ,the new 2.0 turbo motor comes with forged rods ,steel crank ,VVT .but it only comes in the solstice/skye so dont expect to get one at a wreckers soon .the 2.0 supercharged motors have the strong bottom end but no VVT.as far as i know ,the 2.4 motor shares the 2.2's bad points:the powdered metal rods and cast iron crank .to me the extra cost and work involved with this motor is not worth it to just get VVT .it is 177 hp stock ,but a 2.2 is a cold air intake and headers away from that already .


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #216, 04-30-2007 09:31 PM
      I believe the 2.4 has the forged internals but the 2.2 injectors.

I love the ecotec, bascially what WTFB said, this motor is the 350 of its time and can be upgraded to any power level you want.

WTFB, you will love those Kumhos, same as I have but i only have 205s all the way around once those burn up Ill go for 225 or 235 if i can fit em.

As far as mine goes, I am on the final steps of my spacer setup which is very well done So far my entire tranny/drivetrain price is up to $336 dollars plus about 20+ hours on the laythe and mill (dont want to imagine it if a machine shop would be doing the spacer)

Looking hot, you need to try and make the GM-Small Car Bash July 27th, I would love to meet you and see your fiero!


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #217, 05-01-2007 08:50 AM
      i am actually off work that day .is that event any where near detroit?i am three hours away from detroit .got my bigger injectors today . the stock harness does not fit the accell injectors .the clips fit though and length is fine .i am making a temporary harness setup so i can run until i can find a made up harness .cobalt addiction has one for 49.00 i think it should be the same as a cavalier but i have to phone and confirm .
another ecotec advantage is it only takes 10 minutes to remove the fuel rail and injectors .try that on a 2.8 ,you are in for an afternoon's work .


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #218, 05-01-2007 02:56 PM
      Hmm for some reason I thought you where no where near Michigan. Its in Mansfield Ohio, your closer to it than me lol. Im going to be spending the weekend down there, sinces its a huge party!

I was given 3 different 2.2 ecotec fuel rails and every single one of them is different so dont be to sure that the wiring is the same.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #219, 05-01-2007 08:06 PM
      my home made harness is working perfectly so i think i will just save the 50 bucks .i am north of detroit so mansfield will be to far cause i have to work the next day .i want to take this car to a fiero related event this year but the dates dont match up with work much so far .i installed the new injectors ,added a cherry bomb muffler and i got some hydraulic return line to replace the heater hose i have been using as a oil return line .the car is noticeably queter now and i almost have the detonation solved .if i can up the fuel pressure another 5 psi (at 60psi now ,stock was 56 iirc ).i am raising it a bit at a time so i dont get to a flooding situation .the detonation starts at 5500 in third gear now but i think if i do a standing start run with the water meth flowing full on i might be able to do a quarter mile run .pics later .

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #220, 05-01-2007 08:51 PM
      You gotta try and get that weekend off! Its going to be a blast. There is also a NOPI event at Milian this year and a few others at US131 which is South of Grand Rapids. I plan on making as much as I can.

Get some videos if you can or some action shots

Does it sound good with a cherry bomb? I have one left over from my 3800 and I also have a Dynamax muffler, I can choose outta those too. Either way I cannot wait to see more pics.

The spacer is finished, and I commence putting it all back together, the clutch works much easier that it did with my 3800. Also I suggest if you can get a Fidanza Lightweight flywheel for yours, its saweet!


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #221, 05-01-2007 11:17 PM
      the cherry bomb and the extra 4 feet or so of pipe have toned it down so it is just the way i like it .the cherry bomb isnt much more than a straight tube wrapped in fibreglass .without the turbo i think it would be way loud.i used the cherry bomb because it tucks underneath really well.there is room for a normal muffler ,but it needs to be centre in centre out and i only had offsets lying around .but i was surprised at how nice it sounds .i would post a video but i dont own a camcorder .
i wish i could get that weekend off but i am duty staff at a nuclear power plant and we had to pick our holidays in advance .maybe next year.




wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #222, 05-03-2007 11:30 PM
      the bigger fuel injectors did the trick i can now run the 1/4 without detonation .i only got a chance to do one run. i blew the start (bogged it again ) 0-60 was slow , 6.69 secs ,and i missed the 4-5 shift .i also coasted after i hit 90 mph cause i thought i had covered the 1/4 and then the red light came on .so pretty poor execution on my part but i still did 14.95 @95 mph .not bad for a first try and i think as is i can get down to the 13's.it runs a little rough at slow speeds now until it warms up.i think i can now dial back the fuel pressure a bit to solve that problem .i had the day off wednsday and the reason i only did one run was i could not believe all the the people out on the roads .i wont do a run unles i can find an empty road ,and it was a nice day so i think a lot of people were playing hooky from work .days off during the week usally mean not many people out and about but not wedsnday .but good progress was made .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #223, 05-05-2007 05:01 PM
      i got in another run with the bigger injectors .this time i dropped the clutch at2000 rpm ,a little spin and off i went .i set the g tech for a 6000 redline so i wouldnt hit the rev limiter .the results were much better;



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #224, 05-05-2007 05:11 PM
      i think i can get into the 13's in the next run or three .using the 6000 redline cost me a bit of momentum ,i could see by the horse power result .but my 1/4 mile acceleration curve was a nice curve without flat spots like my previous runs .so the shifts were good .i am getting more summit goodies next week .100 psi pump and vortech 6:1 mechanical fmu .i want the 12's !

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #225, 05-05-2007 07:02 PM
      that was 14.1@98.6 mph ,sorry about the pic.

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #226, 05-05-2007 07:45 PM
      Looking good!!! I got some questions for ya when i get more than 30 seconds lol..

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #227, 05-07-2007 04:23 PM
      i solved the detonation problem .pretty simple fix .i had set my meth injection to maximum at 8 psi .this was too high .i set it to start at 2 psi and maximum at 5 psi and no more detonation during 4th or 5th throttle roll ons .uses a lot more washer fluid now but no more worries about connecting rods .i still have a slightly rough idle and it doesnt run smooth until it warms up but i am hoping to fix that with the fmu and a lower idle fuel pressure .but the big improvement now is that i can put my foot in it any time without worry about detonation.

Primaris MSG #228, 05-07-2007 05:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

i solved the detonation problem .pretty simple fix .i had set my meth injection to maximum at 8 psi .this was too high .i set it to start at 2 psi and maximum at 5 psi and no more detonation during 4th or 5th throttle roll ons .uses a lot more washer fluid now but no more worries about connecting rods .i still have a slightly rough idle and it doesnt run smooth until it warms up but i am hoping to fix that with the fmu and a lower idle fuel pressure .but the big improvement now is that i can put my foot in it any time without worry about detonation.


What H2O injection system are you useing? The last time I looked at them the duty cycle was only like 60 seconds.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #229, 05-07-2007 10:27 PM
      i am using a snow stage 2 system .it is electronicaly controlled with a boost reference point .it will continue to send in water meth as long as boost levels are above or at the set points .if i spent a minute at full throttle ,around here i would run out of road.

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #230, 05-07-2007 11:36 PM
      Congrats on that fix!!!


BTW sunday I got mine running, not good but it moves under its own power!
I believe I am the 3rd now on the forum with a ecotec powered fiero


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #231, 05-08-2007 06:44 AM
      congratulations ! iam really interested in how the megasquirt works out .

AquaHusky (david.t.cisneros@gmail.com) MSG #232, 05-09-2007 11:57 AM
      Like I've said before, I love the EcoTEC in my VUE. Too bad I can't grab the engine and F23 out of it and let them repo the empty shell. haha

FIEROPHREK MSG #233, 05-09-2007 05:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

that was 14.1@98.6 mph ,sorry about the pic.


What boost setting are you running? Be carefull posting GTech #'s people get really retarded about things like that for some reason. Nice to see a turbo eco running. Let us know when you get some track times so you can get in the 1/4 mile database.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #234, 05-09-2007 06:03 PM
      it is set the way it came,watching the boost guage i see about 8-9 psi .i hope to go down to grand bend ont soon so i can post a slip on the list .thanks for the post .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #235, 05-10-2007 04:11 PM
      today i went to goderich and back and i watched the boost guage as much as i could (its mounted in the centre consule til i figure out where i really want it located).i did not see it go higher than 8 psi .it also never goes to the vacuum side ,lowest reading is 0 no matter what .so i think the waste gate is a stock subaru item .in my present state of tune ,i cant use any more than 8 psi safely anyway so i wont get a boost controller till next year .i was looking at gm's ecotec build book today and the stock head gasket is good for 350 hp .that was one thing i was worried about ,since i dont plan on opening this engine up and changing things inside .my goal is 300 hp and it looks like that is do able with stock internals .
what i thought was my map sensor that i relocated to the intake pipe was actually the IAT sensor .so my map sensor is still in the stock position .since they are not designed to read boost (or anything other than vacuum as far as i know ) this might be the cause of my rough idle .i am going to try and relocate it to the intake pipe and see how that works .i may just buy another one so i can just swap it back if it doesnt help the rough idle .i can live with the idle the way it is if i have to ,but the goal is to be fast and smooth .
as far as i know this is a list of running ecotec powered fieros on pff . 1.deejayee BC Canada
2.wftb ontario Canada
3.rodo pennsylvania (i think)
4.fosgatecavy 98 michigan
roger thelin has a running car and he is also selling kits .but he hasnt posted directly on pff yet that i know of .his # is 352 375 8259 for anyone interested in the most complete kit available as of this writing .this is for the 2.2 and f23 5 speed .
if anyone else knows of any other running ecotec fieros feel free to post .i want first hand reports though ,not friend of a friend .thanks for reading


fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #236, 05-10-2007 05:34 PM
      Hey wftb, your build is looking awesome bro! You've done what I'm still attempting to do. You rock!!!

A quick question for you regarding the coolant. Do you have any pics of how you ran the lines for the turbo's coolant?

I'm trying to get some ideas rolling for how to do it on my setup. I was thinking of doing a separate subsystem for it that I can patch an air-to-water intercooler into later on if I want to ditch the air-to-air setup, but another idea I had was patching the turbo into the heater hose hookups cause they're right there by the exhaust, and running a heat exchanger in between the turbo and the heater core. What's your opinion?



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #237, 05-11-2007 04:18 PM
      all i did was t off of each line to the heater core .not perfect but it seems to circulate ok .i tried going through the turbo on the way to the heater but for some reason i did not get flow that way .i have about 500 miles so far and no problems.

fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #238, 05-12-2007 11:10 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

all i did was t off of each line to the heater core .not perfect but it seems to circulate ok .i tried going through the turbo on the way to the heater but for some reason i did not get flow that way .i have about 500 miles so far and no problems.


Ok, now this jogs my curiosity, cause now you have me thinking that the heater core grabs coolant on the cold side of things rather than the hot... is this the case? I always thought the heater core grabbed coolant on the hot side (thus the "heater core" term), and I'd have to use a secondary heat exchanger to cool the coolant down enough to run it to the turbo.

And I can understand why you didn't get flow with one single coolant loop. It's kinda like trying to lift a box at the middle with one hand under the other vs. lifting with one hand on each side of the box.

Plus it's harder to get air out with one continuous loop, so your method is better for that as well.



Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #239, 05-12-2007 05:30 PM
      Just want to offer my sincerest good wishes for a successful new technolgy swap. Those Ecotecs engines do have the potential to make incredible power. I don't believe that it is yet a popular swap but it might be soon.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #240, 05-13-2007 02:50 PM
      thanks for all the comments everyone .the piping going to the heater core does come out warm but never hotter than operating temps (in my cars case , 90* C ) .so with the good flow i seem to be getting ,this should keep the turbo at close to the same temp as the engine .i think this is what you want anyway so i am happy with it as is .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #241, 05-14-2007 06:39 PM
      i had a problem with the car today .i had mounted the methanol jug at about the same height as the spray nozzle was at .i couldnt find a spot to get it lower .i thought it was ok but i realized as the pump wore in a bit ,it had started to siphon in to the engine continuously whenever it was running .this did not affect anything till today when out of the blue it started running rough ,like it was short a cylinder .i cleaned the map sensor and the o2 sensor and made no diff. so a disconnected the sprayer and plugged the hole and after about 10 minutes of normal driving the problem disappeared .it looks like the continual water /meth feed was fouling a sensor some where and confusing the ecm .i have had a solinoid valve on order for a while now ,so until it comes in i wont be able to use much boost .on the plus side ,my idle is starting to smooth out .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #242, 05-15-2007 06:46 PM
      on the way home from work ,the rough running came back worse than ever .after changing plugs ,checking my injector connections and adjusting and checking everything i could think of , the problem was still there .but i noticed something about my aeromotive FPR that was strange: it would not hold pressure after the engine was turned off .so i put the stock FPR back on and the car runs smoothly again .it even idles smooth again .so that was a waste of 170 dollars.i dont have time to drive it tonight so i am not sure i am out of the woods yet ,but i idled it for ten minutes and it seems good.

Hudini (hudini@tds.net) MSG #243, 05-15-2007 07:24 PM
      When I was researching a stand alone adjustable FPR I ran across several websites saying the same thing as you. The aeromotive FPR gave up the ghost and caused all kinds of running issues.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #244, 05-16-2007 05:24 PM
      the worst of it was that the brand new part is always the last thing you check ,so i wasted a lot of time checking other things that had nothing to do with the problem .but now the car runs better than it ever has ,smooth idle and no detonation at all with the meth injection hooked back up .i can hardly believe that it works so well with the stock fpr .i have done the bare minimum of tuning and the car runs like it came from the factory .(except if it came from the factory , you wouldnt have to fill a water meth jug up every day !) tuning so far : bosche blow off valve
32 lb accell injectors (14.4 ohm ford style ) and homemade harness
snow stage 2 water meth injection system
all the electronics are stock 2004 cavalier .i have a 6:1 vortech fmu and holly 100 psi inline fuel pump on order but unless i increase the boost this year i wont put it on .
i relocated the meth system to the trunk



the other pics show the stock FPR and the feeds for the injection system and the boost guage and the blow off valve


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #245, 05-20-2007 06:53 AM
      bumpin to the top

fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #246, 05-20-2007 08:15 PM
      Hey wftb! I'm definitely going to consult this if I can't get ahold of any E85 and I need to go with alcohol injection.

I have another question regarding the heater core pipes (my last one, I promise).

Which pipe is in, and which is out? No one on the j-body or ecotec forums out there seem to know (very odd).



Also, I just want to double check on something, cause I'm an idiot. I know you said the coolant pipes were swapped when going to an Ecotec, but this pipe going over where the bellhousing is (see above) is the outlet, right?

Thanks bro!



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #247, 05-20-2007 09:10 PM
      The outlet closest to fly wheel connects to the heater inlet, the one farthest connects to the heater outlet. The smaller one on top of the thermostate housing goes to pressuruzed overflow tank.



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #248, 05-20-2007 11:55 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by ccfiero350:

The outlet closest to fly wheel connects to the heater inlet, the one farthest connects to the heater outlet. The smaller one on top of the thermostate housing goes to pressuruzed overflow tank.



Does it matter which way the coolant flows? heater and regular?


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #249, 05-20-2007 11:59 PM
      the outlet on the same side as the serpentine belt is the outlet (hot) side to the rad .i did not try to reuse the v6 crossover pipe so on my car the hot water is going up the passenger side and entering the radiator in the bottom instead of the top .i was concerned about this untill i realized that the ecotec cools so quick that hardly any fluid gets sent to the rad anyway .even on a warm day it takes 1/2 hour of driving till the rad return pipe even feels a little warm .the temp guage runs up to 91* c and goes up and down about 2* as the thermostat lets fluid out and in to the engine.i dont have thermostat control on my rad fan yet so i turn it on manualy with a switch in the trunk but it has not needed the fan yet .i dont know where the thermostat is on my engine to cycle the fan .as far as the heater core goes i just figured it didnt matter much either way because it is just a loop through and it will flow either way .i would take ccfiero's advice on that one .
its great to see all these ecotec swaps starting to take shape all at once .thanks for posting


fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #250, 05-23-2007 06:54 PM
      Thanks for the info guys! The reason why I care about which is in and out is so if I put a heat exchanger in line with the turbo coolant lines, I don't accidentally end up cooling off the heater core instead, which would suck come autumn.

Also, being that I do have a turbo motor, I'd like to make the coolant system as capable as possible. My bottom end is built to take 500HP at 8500RPM before something starts to give out... 2 years down the road, I intend on pushing the motor to that level to see what the car can acheive with that kind of power.

On top of all of that, if I miraculously pull off getting into Sport Compact Car Magazine's USCC event, I don't want the engineers going "WTF were you thinking?".

 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

i dont know where the thermostat is on my engine to cycle the fan .


A majority of engines these days have a computer controlled fan. 87-up 2.5L Fieros are like this BTW. The stock Ecotec ECM senses when the temp gets to about 180-185 degrees, and flicks a relay on to power the fan.

A simple solution could be getting a T-fitting for the coolant temp sensor, and getting a temperature sensitive fan switch on the other side of the T-fitting. A good example of this is on my friend's 4.3L Chevy V-6, which has provisions for two temp sensors. He has one sensor going to the temp gauge, and the other is a fan switch that cuts off the 12V to the fan when it goes below 180 degrees. Other temps are available. Jegs and Summit should have them.

I would normally be able to offer a solution to get the stock Ecotec ECM to run it, but my source for Ecotec documentations is having technical difficulties. Sorry bud.

Thanks for the help with the coolant line questions. I really appreciate it!



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #251, 05-25-2007 06:33 AM
      i found a bunch of switches from summit.some are pretty trick ,completely adjustable ,and the sensor probe just goes onto the face of the radiator ,no need to do any plumbing at all .some as cheap as 25.00 .too bad i just got an order from them.i just got my vortech FMU and 100 psi in line fuel pump .i might not put these on this year because ever since i put the stock FPR back on the car has run like a top .absolutely no detonation ,smooth idle and lots of power .i dont even need premium any more and i have dialed way back on the water meth injection. the extra pump and FMU are for when i get a boost controller .so all you need to turbo a 2.2 and have it run well with the stock ecu is :
32 lb 14.4 ohm accell injectors and bosche recirculating valve
water methanol injection
of course this is with a big 16 g type turbocharger that requires an oil evacuation pump .no ecu tuning has been done .the stock ecu is handling it all very well .your results may vary.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #252, 06-01-2007 08:50 AM
      new parts

might not get installed for a while , its too nice out to work on the car .


fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #253, 06-02-2007 09:12 PM
      Hey wftb! I found some backups of the ECM pinouts for the Ecotec. On the blue ECM connector, pin 43 is the cooling fan relay control. It's a dark green wire. Put that to the + side of the relay, and ground out the - side, and the ECM should take care of the cooling fan as long as the coolant temp sensor is getting it's signal to the ECM properly.

Also, I'm curious to know, just on a general basis, about how much alcohol gets used per gallon when using alcohol injection?


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #254, 06-03-2007 02:19 AM
      on average i am using about 3 quarts per fill up ,depending on how heavy my foot gets . i dont know how that works out per gallon,the kit comes with three nozzles and i am using the second largest nozzle .the small nozzle did not seem to send enough in ,but i now realize there were other problems at the time.i have the controller set to not send in the max spray right now .i could probably use the small nozzle again , but why mess with a good thing .thanks for the tip on the fan control.i hooked up a rad switch the other day and it still has not gotten hot enough to turn on the fan yet.

ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #255, 06-03-2007 09:49 AM
      I have follwed your threads with much interest. I was wondering for a while what was reason for the alcohol injection rather then changing to a 2 bar map and adjust the timing tables to retard for boost?



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #256, 06-03-2007 09:02 PM
      with the alcohol (water/meth) injection ,you dont have to retard the timing to control detonation.the larger fuel injectors and the added octane / cooling effect of the water /meth injection actually allow you to advance the timing if you want .i also had no room for an air to air intercooler ,so the injection system was a must .i hope to add hp tuners in the future but it really isnt needed at this time .if you go to hahn racecrafts website ,you will find what i think of as the ultimate ecotec turbo system - the port fueler .this system leaves the ecm in its stock configuration and uses a stand alone computer to send in extra fuel via 4 additional fuel injectors.thanks for the posts .

fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #257, 07-02-2007 10:37 PM
      Hey WFTB, I've got an issue with my project.

My throttle cable... the clip on the insulation that is supposed to clip onto the bracket... mine is totally different, and leaves the end of the cable short of where it needs to be.

I'm thinking that you didn't have this issue because you have a V6 model, and the throttle cable is different. Do you have any good closeups of your setup?

Thanks again man!



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #258, 07-03-2007 08:48 PM
      here is a pic of the end of the cable .i forgot that the 4 cylinders have a different throttle cable .the v6 cable fits on like it was made for it .


fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #259, 07-05-2007 03:27 AM
      Ok, but here's another question... which year is yours?

It seems there were two types of V6 throttle cables: 85-86, and 87-88. Either way, it's a well spent $50.

Thanks again man! It would take me much longer to figure this stuff out with the project if not for you.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #260, 07-23-2007 04:20 PM
      my car started life as an 86 gt .(4 speed manual ) .sorry i didnt reply earlier , i have been on holiday .didnt go anywhere , just a lot of golfing .
a little item i added recently is this check valve from rb racing .it takes 1 psi to open and goes on the oil feed to the turbo .if the car sat for a few days ,it smoked like crazy for about three miles because of the oil slowly draining down into the turbo .running the scavenger pump prior to startup did not help , because the oil would already be past the seals before the pump was on .this check valve solved the problem completely .


Eau_Rouge MSG #261, 07-29-2007 10:56 AM
      Wftb, just curious, do you have any updated performance numbers for your setup?
Horsepower, acceleration etc.

Also, I understand from the cobalt forums that you can swap a non vvt ecotec head onto a 2.4L ecotec as long as you use the 2.4L head gasket. Do you know anything about that?


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #262, 07-29-2007 05:22 PM
      i havent looked into a v v t head swap but everything is interchangeable as far as i know. you would have to get the v v t ECM and adapt the drive by wire stuff .if i were to do that ,i think i would just get the whole engine .
i never managed to get to the dragstrip ,so my best 1/4 is still 14.1@98.6 mph on the g-tech .with all the furor over some very irresponsible street racers that have cost people their lives up here ,i no longer keep the g-tech in the car .it would cause too many questions if i got pulled over .
best hp on g-tech has been 189 at the wheels .
i still hope to get to grand bend dragway to get a slip on it ,but g-tech numbers are very close to actual dragstrip timing .i read nothing but good things about it in the car & driver magazine test .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #263, 08-06-2007 11:55 PM
      i have been following along in a thread about how fast a fiero will go so i thought i would take my fiero out to a recently paved mostly uninhabited road and see what it would do .i brought my garmin foretex gps to record the actual speed .well ,i got up to 180 kmh(about 112 mph) and the engine bogged .tried it with less throttle ,thinking the blow off valve was letting go ,same thing happens .apparently the ecm from the 2004 cavalier that i am using has a speed governor on it .so unless i buy the hp tuners software ,i wont know what it will do .it pulls really strong right up till the cutoff happens .

Korupt MSG #264, 08-08-2007 03:52 AM
      I know on the S10 completely different beast i know but the wire that controls the odometer purple wire on my truck. People extend the wires and put a switch in the middle so when racing can turn off the govenor but it also shuts down your odometer. May try jbody.org see if something similar for the ecotec

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #265, 08-08-2007 10:47 AM
      WTFB, try getting rid of the connection to the VSS sensor to the ecm, we used to do this on some of the cavailers we had doing over 108 in the quarter mile. I dont think they ever did it but we were running nitrious and didnt wanna have the limiter hit under nitrious, it wouldnt of been pretty

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #266, 08-08-2007 11:08 AM
      thanks for the tips guys .i am going to just leave it alone for now .i figure if i can get it to do 180kmh in the 1/4 i should be in the low 13's anyay and i would be happy with that .i guess gm figured a 4 door cavalier wouldnt be very stable beyond that speed .

fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #267, 08-09-2007 11:55 PM
      This is why I didn't want the factory ECM (hehe).

Some stuff isn't interchangable with the VVT head. To my knowledge it's a direct injection head, so the manifolds are different, and if the throttle bodies are different, then it would be harder to adapt the drive by wire. Yet another reason I used the ho-hum 2.2L. It's sooo much easier to mod.

If one could get around the throttle by wire issue, the rest of the 2.4L VVT motor would work with Megasquirt. You can program one of the extra outputs to trigger the VVT at any RPM/TPS level. Pretty sure it works with Honda VTEC motors.

One more thing WFTB. I posted a question to the forum about the throttle cable, asking if the pedal side of your cable year would work on an 88, cause one side is shorter on the earlier years, but I don't know if it's the engine side or the pedal side. It's so confusing.

Hope all keeps going well with your project man!



Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #268, 08-10-2007 01:51 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

the turbo solstice is a 2.0 litre motor ,not a 2.4 i dont know if it has V V T.


Now that would be a sweet motor to put into a Fiero. - together with a F35 (I believe) transverse tranny. I think that's the 6-speed manual.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #269, 08-10-2007 10:55 AM
      the f35 is a heavier duty 5 speed that also comes with the supercharged 2.0 motor .it has an intermediate shaft and to make it work in a fiero you have to use the complete cobalt axle assembly .this is what would make the supercharged motor an easier swap if you had a wrecked cobalt .so far the turbo motor is only in the sky and solstice and since they are rear drive you have a lot of parts hunting to do even if you are lucky enough to find one .
i really dont care for any eco other than the 2.2 .it is the biggest bang for the buck ,it has its drawbacks(weak rods) but it will still put out up to 350 hp without breaking .and if i do break it ,i can get another one for 350.00 .


Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #270, 08-10-2007 12:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

the f35 is a heavier duty 5 speed that also comes with the supercharged 2.0 motor .it has an intermediate shaft and to make it work in a fiero you have to use the complete cobalt axle assembly .this is what would make the supercharged motor an easier swap if you had a wrecked cobalt .so far the turbo motor is only in the sky and solstice and since they are rear drive you have a lot of parts hunting to do even if you are lucky enough to find one .
i really dont care for any eco other than the 2.2 .it is the biggest bang for the buck ,it has its drawbacks(weak rods) but it will still put out up to 350 hp without breaking .and if i do break it ,i can get another one for 350.00 .


Good point. I'm waiting for the Saab with the turbocharged engine to come out. That one will be fwd (I think) and the same engine. Now the chances of finding one of those at a junkyard are practically nill, but one can dream, right? :dreaming:

I was thinking about finding a supercharged cobalt engine. (doesn't that one have an optional LSD in some trims?) It would be a dream fit for the fiero, but there is just something about the sound of a turbo spooling up and a BOV whistle that makes me spine tingle..

-M


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #271, 08-10-2007 03:25 PM
      do a search on ccfiero350 .he is doing a build with the 2.0 supercharged ,f35 with LSD .he figured out how to make the cobalt axles work .i gotta admit though ,now that i have a turbo ,i wouldnt go with NA again .the spool up and the blow off , the fact that unless i want the boost the turbo just idles along is amazing to me . what i like the best is the third gear power .drop it down and hang on ! .
i have yet to own a supercharged car so i dont know whether they would be as much fun ,but how could 205 RWHP not be a blast?


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #272, 08-29-2007 09:38 PM
      i picked up a set of street dreams 1.25" drop spindles .i was going to wait till winter to put them on but i am on holidays and its too windy out to go boating so i decided to put them on .pretty simple install , but it does change you toe setting .i was hoping all the holes would correspond to the stock spindle but after i got it installed i had a total toe in of almost 2" .i was going to drive about 20 miles to check it out but quit afer 1/2 mile because it was real darty .thats the trouble with a gt body ,they are so curved i did not notice the excess toe in .after measuring ,i cranked out the tie rod ends 1/4" and now it works great .with the lowering spindles , i was able to raise the coilovers and get more travel .no more bottoming out on bumps and the shocks perform better since they are closer to mid travel .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #273, 10-16-2007 09:15 PM
      just a bump to stay out of the archives .i was going to put the rest of my high performance goodies on before winter but i havent had time .i am going to put the parts (boost controller etc ) on over the winter now .i never made it down to the drag strip and that is disapointing to me but work (and the problems at the grand bend track with the new pavement ) got in the way of that .i leave the insurance on the car all winter so that i can do testing on days when there is no snow so at least i will be ready in the spring .things i hope to do : boost controller
install gear drive turbo oil scavenger pump
front tie rod replacement and whatever i need to fix on the steering rack
fix one axle boot
air to water intercooler install
hp tuners
swap out my drvers side seat fabric with the good ones i have had for two years now
figure out how to make the cavalier instrument lights work
and whatever else i can think of

thanks to everybody who has posted here . i will be back here as soon as the weather turns bad .


fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #274, 10-17-2007 12:50 AM
      wftb-
this is my favorite ecotec swap thread. I'm glad your setup continues to work for you. Keep up the good work man!

How much did you spend on your car to add the turbo to your eco? How much do you plan on spending for the H20 to air intercooler?



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #275, 10-17-2007 06:47 AM
      i think i added up to around 1400 as it sits on the car now .the air to water IC runs about 150.00 on ebay and i already have a pump so i will just need a small rad and a tank .i am hoping about 300.00 total .like most pay as you go fix ups ,i have lost control of my spending !

fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #276, 10-17-2007 07:02 AM
      Cool man,
So are you going to keep your meth water injection as well as your new intercooler? So you can up the boost? *goes back though the thread to find out what kind of turbo and maniflold you used*

Where are you going to run your new coolant lines for the I/C?

Only $150? CDN or USD? Seems pretty inexpensive!



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #277, 10-17-2007 01:15 PM
      i was surprised how cheap they are .thats us money but the loonie is now worth more than a us dollar anyway ,i am going to use a tranny cooler for a rad.not sure where i am going to mount it but my ac does not work so i may put it where the condenser is .or i might just use the condenser and its lines , if i finally give up the idea of working ac .i also want a tank big enogh to put ice in at the drag strip . i am going to use both the IC and meth injection to try to crank the boost up to 14 psi or so .

fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #278, 10-17-2007 04:56 PM
      So in theory, if you had just the A/W I/C, is it a question of how big your heat exchangers are at the intake and at the front of the car that determines how much boost you can crank into there? Will premium petrol help with the detonation? What about Ethanol? Ethanol technically is alcohol and alky is really high octane, isn't it? Wouldn't that make it more resistant to detonation? I guess availability is an issue there... plus longevity of the fuel system. Aren't some GM engines designed to run on E85 though? Can't wait to see your progress.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #279, 10-18-2007 10:17 AM
      the boost is mostly limited by the actual strength of the engine components.on a stock 2.2 you have the rod issue ,head gasket ,and i found out recently that the stock piston ring land is another weak point .so i think 14 psi is max .
raising boost levels means more air is getting into the engine .this leans out the fuel mix and causes detonation .water meth and an intercooler help by lowering the air temp and by adding fuel .but at 8 psi with just the water meth i needed bigger injectors to completely eliminate detonation.to get up to14 psi boost the IC is going to help but more air =more fuel needed and thats where the 100 psi in line fuel pump and 6:1 vortech FMU come in .i already have everything i need except the IC .
i have not mentioned timing because the big plus with water meth is you dont have to retard the timing to prevent detonation .retarding the timing to control detonation also reduces HP and results in less complete combustion .
i would like the HP Tuners package to change a few things .lowering the injector duty cycle on start up to get rid of the occasional hot start flooding problem ,raise the the rev limit to 6800 so it wont be so easy to hit the rev limiter in 1st gear,and get more consistency in the AFR through out the rev range .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #280, 10-18-2007 11:55 AM
      forgot to add : i only run premium .if the water meth runs out , then detonation is minimized .we dont have much choice in fuels around here .i like the 10 % ethanol blends because they dont have the manganese additive(nasty stuff ) ,but the only station that has it is ockward to get in and out of .

fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #281, 11-06-2007 02:58 PM
      bump for the pioneer eco thread. 2.4s- do they have the high-speed internals that the 2.0 motors do? (forged pistons, rods, SS crank) confirmation that 2.4s truly do have drive by wire and direct injection?

edit: Page 8 is mine.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #282, 11-19-2007 10:40 PM
      the only direct injected eco appears to be the 2.0 turbo motor .i looked at a bunch of roadtests and all the GM info i could find and nothing was mentioned about DI on a 2.4 V V T .they have a nodular iron crank with steel rods(not powdered metal like the 2.2) and all the new motors have drive by wire .
i have been merrily driving along with my turbo setup and no problems all summer and fall when the car started running rough ,like only three cylinders were firing .i tried to get new plugs from canadian tire but though they had them listed ,none were in stock .original delcos from the chevy dealer cost 76 bucks with tax and fixed the problem .the CTCplugs would have been 45.00 all in .the old plugs look good , but i dont know how many miles are on them .i think the water meth injection might be a little hard on platinum plugs .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #283, 11-28-2007 12:17 PM
      the problem seems to be temperature related .i put the new plugs in , and everything seemed to be fine.but then it turned cold out and a plug fouled again .with the bigger injectors and no way to tune them at non boost levels ,the car runs way rich at low speeds .i can clear the fouled plugs by getting the boost up but its really annoying to have to rev along in a lower gear when you are in traffic .for some reason , this problem doesnt happen on plus 70* F days .
so i have decided to buy the HP tuners pro tuning setup .the car is on its dollys for the winter now that snow is here and with the CDN dollar so high it was a good time to buy .
i have done a lot of research and one of the many things i can tune is my injector constant, this will reduce the amount of fuel at startup and non boosted conditions .the power enrichment table will get the extra fuel i need under boost conditions .HPT pro versions accept inputs from wide bands so i can get the AFR where it should be .i can correct my speedo error and raise the rev limiter and the speed governor .and lots of other things that a way beyond me at this time .
it comes with a code scanner too for better trouble shooting .there will be access to the knock sensor so i can see what is going on there as well .
i should have bought this setup when i boosted the motor but i wanted to get a good understanding of the car boosted with only minor mods .with just the bigger injectors , and water meth injection ,it ran really well most of the time .this car is my daily driver from april to snow fall time and i have now put about 17000 km on since the swap .
to prepare for HPT ,i had to take apart my centre consul and dig out the OBD2 connector .i hope this is the one:


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #284, 11-28-2007 03:09 PM
      Blah,

Idk if ive updated you yet, but I blew 3 ringlands out on my motor, took once cylinder to do it twice before anything lost compression tho

Cannot wait to see the power increase you will get with HPtuners!

Im doing some non-motor work until january or so then its back to the new ecotec


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #285, 11-28-2007 03:21 PM
      so your whole motor is toast? or are you able to rebuild it? i heard from the ecotec forum that the newer 2.2's have weaker pistons than the older ones .with your motor not being boosted , i didnt think you would have that kind of a problem .good to hear from you again .

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #286, 11-28-2007 03:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

so your whole motor is toast? or are you able to rebuild it? i heard from the ecotec forum that the newer 2.2's have weaker pistons than the older ones .with your motor not being boosted , i didnt think you would have that kind of a problem .good to hear from you again .


Yeah I havent been on much lately school is keeping me busy.

Yes I was having tuning issues, Ive contacted numerous people for megasquirt files to compare to mine to see if it was a tuning issue but no one ever responded . I always had a misfire/detenation issue at 6k+ range. It may of been a bad motor before I got it. But I know I blew 3 ringlands, compression was still over 205psi on blown ringlands, the 4th happend on #2 cylinder a second time and I pulled parts of the piston up with a magnet. The sleeves,rods and crank are good on the motor but for the price to rebuild it I can get another low mileage motor and have extra parts still

On ecotecforum.com i have a few threads about the issue before it blew finally, but I think it had to do with pulling 110% duty cycles with my injectors and a few other variables in that area.

Im glad to see yours is going well, and you gotta make a trip down in 08, i wanna see yours


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #287, 12-14-2007 05:19 PM
      i got my HP tuners software and hardware the other day .i am very impressed with the product . i have only made one change to my tune so far because i am taking the time to learn everything about the software before making changes .the first thing i did was read my cars vcm (i bought the mpvi pro version ) and this is what came up:

look at that . i own a 2004 cavalier ! not .anyway , the software gathered all the info itsef .i was worried i would have to go through my old receipts to dig up the vin for the donor car . the only tuning i have done so far is to change the injector constant , this will end my plug fouling and hot start flooding that was caused by the larger injectors .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #288, 12-23-2007 12:38 AM
      i have been doing some scanning with my hp tuners hooked up to the car and changing the injector constant made an improvement but did not solve all my problems .the scan showed that when the car started to run rough , the o2 sensor graph turned into a bunch of spikes .i did some digging and found that oil has been getting past the turbo seals and clogging up the o2 sensor with black soot .turns out my expensive gear drive pump doesnt draw enough vacuum to stop the oil from backing up in the turbo .so i have decided to re route a few things to solve the problem for good .i dont want to go back to the shurflo pump because i cant see a diaphram pump pushing hot oil for very long without a failure . so i am going to remote mount the turbo under what is left of my trunk ,allowing the oil return from the turbo to point straight down into the evac pump .i have removed my old exhaust and the turbo and the old cavvy manifold .i was hoping to find a ready made turbo manifold but i measured and i dont have enough clearance and i am not going to sacrifice more trunk space .i have a line on a solstice exhaust manifold for 50.00 plus shipping .it points down instead of out like the cavvy manifold so it will be easier to get the cat in before the turbo and have all the room under the trunk for the turbo ,muffler and piping . i made this adapter bracket to feed the exhaust in to the turbo :

this is the old manifold .it looks like the EGR is plumbed right into the cylinder head somehow .there are a lot of extra passages that send gasses back into the head .hopefully the solstice manifold has the same passages .

i hope to have the new set up done in a couple of weeks if i can gather all the parts i need .i am going to re route the charge pipes as well to clean up the engine compartment.


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #289, 12-23-2007 09:59 PM
      The water transfer pipe on the solstace may be differant then the others, I have a turbo setup from a GXP and it hits the water pipe on the LSJ motor.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #290, 12-24-2007 12:28 AM
      the axle and the water pipe are the two things i am worried about .i hope to drive down and look at the parts before i buy but if i cant throwing away 75 dollars on parts i cant use isnt too bad .archie posted a pic of the 2.4 with the manifold on and it looked like it would work but i cant find the post anymore .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #291, 01-07-2008 08:33 PM
      i have got the turbo sitting in what i hope will be its final location .i am going to get the solstice manifold on wednseday.while i am in the cleveland area ,i hope to get over to summit racing to get some pre bent exhaust tubing to fab up the plumbing .and hopefully pick up a better fitting for the turbo feed .it is 60 * fahrenheiht outside and my garage is one big mass of dripping condensation as the warm air hits the ice cold concrete floor .this usually only happens for a few days in the spring , not in the middle of winter .


fieroturbo (fieroturbo@yahoo.com) MSG #292, 01-09-2008 10:45 PM
      Hey WFTB, things are looking nice man! I'm constantly impressed with your swap, and how much progress you've made compared to my Ecotec installation.

Remember awhile back we were discussing the angle of the Ecotec, and where the oil pickup was located in the pan, and the potential for oil starvation? I got some pics of my pan when I pulled it off the other day. The pickup is mostly centered, but it is slightly closer to the back of the pan, on the drain plug side.



This still boggles my mind as to why they would tilt the motor forward when the pickup is closer to the back, but oh well, at least we now know that whether it's level like mine, or tilted forward like from the factory, there is no G-force induced oil starvation issues.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #293, 01-10-2008 12:21 AM
      that is really good to know because it means in the future no one need worry about mounting the motor straight up .i could have mounted mine vertical but it gave me more axle clearance to have it at the stock tilt .and i was concerned about oil starvation .i got my solstice manifold today from mallett cars .while i was waiting for the parts i got a tour .i have never seen so many high powered cars in one place before .one of their new builds is a turbocharged LS7 powered solstice .
they have over 100 less than 100 mile 2.4 ecos that have been removed from solstice and sky v8 conversion cars .on their website they have been asking 2500 for them but it sounds like they might be willing to deal .the down side is they have no harnesses or ecm's .i know my wiring wont support the VVT and drive by wire or i might pick one up , mainly for the stronger bottom end .here are some picks of the solstice manifold sitting on my eco .it is an improvement but it is going to be a bit of work to avoid the inboard cv joint .i bought a cat as well ,but its a no go .i may still use it ,but i cant just bolt it up to the manifold as on the solstice .the 2.4 manifold has a larger ,round opening compared to the 2.2 manifold .


the cavalier manifold exit hole

the solstice cat


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #294, 01-11-2008 05:49 PM
      i made the piping from the new manifold to the turbo today .


still have to heat wrap and make some hangers .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #295, 01-11-2008 08:02 PM
      double post sorry about that

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-11-2008).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #296, 01-13-2008 06:42 PM
      the turbo on its new perch :



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #297, 02-28-2008 04:39 PM
      havent got much done lately .the new feed to the turbo is heat wrapped and installed with the turbo mounted .all thats left is to find a new spot for the oil evac pump and reconnect the cooling lines .i am also running tubing so i can install a manual boost controller in the centre console .the paying job is getting in the way .i am spending all my spare time studying for a set of exams that will net me another raise .more pics on the weekend i hope .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #298, 03-02-2008 06:01 PM
      i now have all the coolant and oil lines and evacuation pump remounted and i fired it up .no leaks and no sign of any oil getting past the turbo seals .the pics show the new pump location and how i now have a straight drop down to the evac pump .i havent hooked up the intake or charge pipe yet but now that i have checked for leaks that is the next job .


i also made a more compact lower dogbone .you cant see it in the pics ,but the bolts have poly isolators .


Fieromaniac MSG #299, 03-04-2008 12:44 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroturbo:







is this an ecotec to fiero-tranny adapterplate? if yes , who sells something ? i want to run an turbo 2.0 c20let on the standard th125c



AP2k (argonplasma2000@gmail.com) MSG #300, 03-04-2008 10:27 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fieromaniac:


is this an ecotec to fiero-tranny adapterplate? if yes , who sells something ? i want to run an turbo 2.0 c20let on the standard th125c



If the block of that is the same as the 1.8 and 2.0 turbocharged engines that were used in the Sunbirds over in America during the 80s, the bolt pattern will fit the Fiero transmission. Are you sure the newer ones have the Ecotec bolt pattern?


Fieromaniac MSG #301, 03-04-2008 11:38 AM
      its a 2L DOHC rated at 208 HP .
it was build in the Opel Calibra and i think in the Vectra in the mid 90`s





F20 or F28 Gearboxes where used with them

[This message has been edited by Fieromaniac (edited 03-05-2008).]

befarrer (befarrer@telus.net) MSG #302, 03-04-2008 02:36 PM
      Here is a 2.0L Sunbird bellhousing, it is simmilar to a GM V6, but I dont know how well it will work, you would have to cut a hole out for starter clearance, and some of the bolts around there are in a different spot, plus the 2.0L OHC has some bellhousing bolts below the crank that go through the oil pan I think. It may bolt up on the front, but none of the bolts on the rear of the bellhousing will line up properly.

This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.


I believe this is the same block as the one pictured above

[This message has been edited by befarrer (edited 03-04-2008).]

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #303, 03-04-2008 03:17 PM
      There isnt a 'fiero' adapter plate but Bates Engineering builds one for the ecotec that brings the pattern to the 'standard' pattern. Im using it hooked to the stock isuzi transmission. Now I must say the stock isuzi MT5 is sweet with the ecotec because for the first time I can do 0-60 in 1st and 2nd compared to 1st and shifting 2nd at like 55mph...



Fieromaniac MSG #304, 03-05-2008 12:12 PM
      the c20let (turbo 204HP) has the same block like the c20xe (150HP) both DOHC engines
the Exhaustmanifold is on the "correct" side not like the quad4 engines

wikipedia listed it as GM family II engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wik...ily_II_engine#Ecotec

question is will it bolt onto the TH125C transmission or do i need an adapterplate and where can i get one

( PM System dont work for me , can read PMs but i get errormessage when i try to answer )



AP2k (argonplasma2000@gmail.com) MSG #305, 03-05-2008 12:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Fieromaniac:

the c20let (turbo 204HP) has the same block like the c20xe (150HP) both DOHC engines
the Exhaustmanifold is on the "correct" side not like the quad4 engines


I like how Opel's LT3 has the exhaust manifold towards the front of the engine. Having it towards the rear is just silly.

So, here is the bolt pattern for our transmissions:

Its obviously different from the bolt pattern posted above. It sucks to me because my research indicated there was no difference between the LT3 transmission and ours.

But we are derailing a swap thread, so I'll shut up.

[This message has been edited by AP2k (edited 03-05-2008).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #306, 03-05-2008 02:27 PM
      i dont mind .that engine looks interesting .is it all aluminum ? having the exhaust on that side of the head would make things easier in the fiero .with the belt drive cams and water pump it would be easy to work on .was it ever sent to north america ?

AP2k (argonplasma2000@gmail.com) MSG #307, 03-05-2008 03:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

i dont mind .that engine looks interesting .is it all aluminum ? having the exhaust on that side of the head would make things easier in the fiero .with the belt drive cams and water pump it would be easy to work on .was it ever sent to north america ?


The 1.8/2.0 Sunbird engine was an iron block with a SOHC aluminum head. The newer Opel engines of the same family have DOHC heads that are supposed to fit. A simple head change was rumored to net about 60 hp.

The really interesting thing, to me, is that the rods and crank are cast iron put under 10 psi of boost at the max. That engine was a real beast in its day.

The engine likes to eat cams and the head gaskets like to blow. A layered steel gasket will solve it, though. Not a whole lot you can do about the cam issue except perhaps open up the oil passages or experiment with different types of oil.

http://www.lt3engine.tk/

[This message has been edited by AP2k (edited 03-05-2008).]

Fieromaniac MSG #308, 03-05-2008 04:19 PM
      i guess ill go to the junkyard and take some pics of such an engine
would be great if the pattern matches without a adapterplate

btw. the available tuningstages for this engine are
phase 2 250 hp
phase 3 280-340 hp
phase 4 up to 450 hp

no NOS involved

[This message has been edited by Fieromaniac (edited 03-05-2008).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #309, 03-08-2008 04:47 PM
      i relocated the charge pipe so that it now goes up and over the engine .the blow off valve tubing now follws the same path down to the new intake location under the trunk .i have removed about 6 feet of intake and charge pipe plumbing and 3 - 90* elbows .should help the flow a bit .i have mounted my 6:1 vortech FMU on the left hand side of the cylinder head (not connected yet , tomorrows job ).i now have a large space above the transaxle where i am going to properly mount the 2 ecotec fuse boxes and probably the ECU .and hide all the extra wiring .the engine runs very smooth now that all the vaccuum lines are connected and the new turbo position makes it impossibe for the oil to get past the seals and into the engine .i also relocated the brake booster check valve to the front of the car where it will be easier to change out .it looks a little melted on one side and although it seems to be working ok it will save crawling under the car to change it out .under my trunk is now quite crowded but everythings fits nicely .i am no longer using a muffler and it has a nice mellow sound that is not that loud .the turbo does double duty as a muffler now .i am going to try to do a youtube of the sound next week some time .i think most of you will be surprised at how nice this 4 cylinder sounds . pics :





wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #310, 03-10-2008 07:41 PM
      got the FMU plumbed up and now i am adding the 100 psi holly inline booster fuel pump .i am doing this a bit different than usual .i dont want this pump to run except when the motor is under boost .so since my water meth system is boost activated , i am using a bypass line around the boost fuel pump with a check valve to prevent back flow when the boost pump kicks on .the feed from the water meth controller will activate a relay coil and the boost fuel pump will activate .i dont want to risk frying my water meth controller by running two pumps off of it so i will use a relay . i think this will be easier on the stock fuel pressure regulator and i dont need to listen to the noise of another electric pump running . pics:



all the plumbing is now hooked up tomorrow i will finish the wiring .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #311, 03-11-2008 07:12 PM
      finished the wiring today and made a bracket to hold the ecotec fuse blocks .the inline fuel pump is now run off of a relaywhose coil is fed by the water meth controller .the fuel pump should kick in at about 5 psi of boost and drop back out at about 4 psi .this is because it will take about 9 volts to pull in the coil and at 8 volts the coil will not hold the contacts in .the point of all this extra stuff is so i can safelyrun at 12 lbs of boost . i ran at 8 lbs last summer with just the water meth and bigger injectors .this gave me an estimated 200 whp .i am hoping to pull around 250 whp this summer .the timing is stock and will probably stay that way .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #312, 03-12-2008 04:28 PM
      i got tired of trying to stuff everything under the old fiero centre glovebox so i built a new housing.gives me a place to mount the boost controller and boost guage .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #313, 03-16-2008 05:11 PM
      i tested my new auxilliary fuel pump controls by sending some air pressure in to the boost referance line for the water meth cotroller and the pump came on .works great.i couldnt test it by just running the revs up because my setup will not build boost unless it is under load .the roads are slowly getting better around here but i have some more front end work to do before a test drive.hoping april 2 after i get back from my florida golf trip .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #314, 03-20-2008 10:48 PM
      i was hoping to spend the whole day cleaning up some odd suspension jobs , but i crawled under the car to find that the turbo seals are leaking again .funny it just showed up now , i have been idling the car and checking for leaks of all kinds for the last 2 weeks and nothing at all till this morning .the culprit seems to be my expensive gear drive oil pump .there were 2 sizes to pick from and i picked the smaller one and that was a mistake .this pump just does not move enough oil .so i put the shurflo pump back on and even holding at a steady 3000 rpm , no oil past the seals .i dont really trust this pump , but everything i have read about it says they are reliable , so i guess i am stuck with it . i got around to the drivers side suspension .i needed to make sure that the poly bushings moved with the arms and not have the arms rotate around the poly bushings .this causes excesive wear onthe poly .i had to drill and tap some holes in the control arms and add some small bolts to get this the way i wanted .here are some pics:



i also notched the poly to let the grease flow to the sleeve that the poly is supposed to rotate around .i wanted to get this all done before i go golfing in florida but i still have the passenger side to do .i hope to drop in on the daytona show while i am down thre but i will be sans fiero .and i have some friends to look up so who knows .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #315, 04-07-2008 10:46 PM
      got back from florida (never made daytona ,no time this year ) and put the car on the road .tried out my HP tuners scanner and it revealed a big problem :
thats my intake air temperature .when it wasnt in the red , it was between 35 to 42 * c .not good , even with water meth coolling .so i relocated my charge and intake pipes to below the car and found a spot where the filter could get outside air without getting wet (behind the passenger door ) .the result :

now it is running at about 20* c and only spikes into the red under full boost .no more pipes over the engine :

i used the hp tuners system to change my injector constant , calibrate my speedometer ,raise my redline and raise the speed governor .i am still getting the hang of hp tuners and have a lot to learn but so far i am impressed by this system .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #316, 04-22-2008 11:51 PM
      the car has been running pretty good but every once in a while it runs like a 3 cylinder diesel that got into some bad fuel .this only lasts until you get on the highway and give it a good rev ving and then it goes back to normal .not knowing where to look , i thought it was the O2 sensors .replaced them , car ran the best it ever had .for about 40 minutes .then the the same thing .new o2 sensors are not cheap , especially when there is nothing wrong with your old ones .the real culprit seems to be my idle air control valve .this is not a cheap item either (200.00) .my engine and tranny cost me 1000 bucks .my two new sensors and one IAC valve cost almost 500 .00 .ouch ! performance improvements has a big sale on now so i bought an intercooler .sits where the fiero cat used to be :

put some scoops on to lower intake and engine bay temps



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #317, 04-29-2008 05:02 PM
      in my quest to end my intermittent rough running , i figured the culprit might be my jury rigged injector harness .so i went to the wreckers and picked up a harness that had the right ends on it .it was from a v8 of some kind so now i have enough to make anothr harness .while i was there i picked up a working rt side headlight assembly to fix that problem .Huron Auto wreckers near Ripley Ont (519 395 2827) has an 84 4 speed that is mostly intact .body and mouldings look pretty good .it is red with grey interiour with striped seats .good centre consule and it has a sunroof ,drivers seat ripped but passenger side looks good .my harness:

seems to have solved the problem but i only drove about 15 miles and sometimes i could go over 90 miles without a problem .either way ,it is a big improvement over the old harness .these connectors are nice in that they dont use the wire clips like the fiero injector connectors .they have built in plastic lockers on the side .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #318, 05-01-2008 02:02 PM
      my new injector harness has now officially solved my intermittant rough running problems .i put another 100 trouble free miles and there was no sign of problems and my hp tuners scan looks good .i should have fixed the harness first , would have saved some coin .
i did some more tuning changing a few things to help lower my KR and improve driveability .got the data from a thread on the hp tuners forum .works really well , one more small change and all my KR will be gone .its amazing how little has to be changed to run a turbo with the stock VCM .if you ran a max of 5psi boost , you could probably just put 30 lb injectors in and carry on .the computer will lower your timing as the boost comes up and make other needed adjustments automatically.
my car now runs like a stocker , except when i stomp on it .i didnt think i was ever going to be able to say that .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #319, 05-11-2008 09:49 PM
      the car is still running great and i drive it every day .hoping to get to the dragstrip in a couple of weeks .any one know of any dynoes in London , ontario ?

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #320, 05-19-2008 08:39 PM
      i am waiting on a AEM guage type boost controller to take my car to the next level .a week from next friday i should be down at grand bend dragway to finally get an official time slip .(as long as test and tune is on that night ).

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #321, 06-30-2008 06:30 PM
     



the plastic pipe i am holding in my hand is the old elbow that connectected to my throttle body .it was a busy place and seemed a little restricted .so i bought a new silicone T fitting and a cast aluminum elbow and cleaned things up a bit .i also got my AEM guage type boost controller and hope to have it working this week .still have not made it down to the strip yet , work keeps getting in the way .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #322, 07-22-2008 10:28 PM
      all packed and ready for waterford hills track day on thursday :

i painted my front scoop silver so it would blend in better :

i hope to meet some of you at the 25th .i am only there thursday for the track day and overnight at the host hotel .leaving about noon on friday .have to work nights all weekend .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #323, 09-15-2008 06:38 PM
      i ordered a bunch of parts the other day .this winter i hope to ;relocate the turbo and use my solstice cat ,build a new centre console and new stereo , and a general cleanup of the wiring and engine bay plumbing .i will post some pics when the parts come in .

Eau_Rouge MSG #324, 10-05-2008 09:01 PM
      Wftb, I love everything about the ecotec and would love to put one in my car...preferably a 2.0 turbo (HHR, Solstice, Cobalt) but I don't want to run water/meth injection. I just want to run the engine and an intercooler - an air/water intercooler since an air to air just doesn't work too well in a fiero...I don't want to hack up my car. My question is, can an good air to water intercooler cool down the intake charge sufficiently such that the turbo can run it's 18 p.s.i - correct me if I'm wrong but the 2.0 litre turbo ecotec's produce 18 p.s.i.

So is it possible to do this with an air/water or am I just dreaming?


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #325, 10-05-2008 09:25 PM
      it is very much do able .but you will need hp tuners to set up the power enrichment tables to make up for the extra cooling the water meth provides .other things i have is a vortech 6:1 FMU , an air to air intercooler and bigger injectors .water meth injection is pretty easy to install and the tank can be mounted any where you have room .HPT is probably the easiest way to tune for a turbo ,especially with the wealth of info on their website .

Eau_Rouge MSG #326, 10-05-2008 10:18 PM
      What about running a small air to air where the cat sits on a v6 fiero in addition to the air to water...assuming that air can be pulled from under the car and into the intercooler? Is this possible, benefecial in any way? That being said, what about a second water to air in the place of the cat with a high volume water pump. Provided that enough air can be directed through the second intercooler, this should help reduce inlet temps. Any opinions?


...very nice build. I've enjoyed your write up and have learned a lot from it so keep up with the updates.
For myself, my first choice is also the ecotec due to its low weight and power potential. Regarding yours, is tuned to your liking? How much hp is it producing?
How's the power band? Is it linear? Does it produce a lot of lag...the last performance turbo car I drove was an 86 porsche 944 turbo and this thing was worse off the line than a bone stock 90's civic but at 3500 rpm the turbo spooled up and it put you into the back of the seat. Wasn't the greatest for a daily driver but sure was fun at the track...turbo cars are a lot of fun!

Cheers!


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #327, 10-05-2008 11:38 PM
      one air to water intercooler would be plenty .my air to air sits where the v6 cat used to be .an air to water intercooler is more efficient than an air to air , with less pressure drop .i dont have access to a dyno .rough estmates using my G tech indicate about 200 WHP running 8 psi boost .lag is only a problem if you are too lazy to downshift out of 5th gear at less than 60 mph .boost builds at 1800 rpm . thanks for checking out my thread .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #328, 10-20-2008 02:23 PM
      i have started my winter projects for this year .the first thing i decided to do was eliminate the cavalier ignition assembly .i no longer need it since i adapted the fiero ignition switch to turn on the engine and i useed HP tuners to disable the vats .to verify the vats was indeed no longer working , i disconnected the connector that joins the key assembly to the BCM .then i tried to start the car .engine started right up and runs normally so all is good there .next i took the cavalier ignition switch and disconnected it from the harness .then i checked with my ohmeter what wires need to be tied together to bypass the switch assembly .i found that with the switch on , all the large connector blades are common except the one for the starter solenoid .i made a harness to check my theory and hooked it up to the connectors and the car started up without the cavvy switch in the circuit .i now can get rid of two of the relays i have in place to allow me to leave the cavvy switch in the run position so i dont drain the battery .one was for the vats ,the other one turned out to be not needed any way as it enabled the key left in switch buzzer that i dont have .the other relay will stay in the circuit to disablepower to the ecotec circuitry when the key is off .as soon as i complete the wiring chages ,i will move on to this years turbo mods and interiour changes .i needed to finish the wiring first because i needed the engine operational to test everything .




goodies just received from summit for turbo and exhaust mods .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #329, 10-20-2008 03:08 PM
      no more cavalier ignition switch and extra relays done away with :

less stuff to hide under the centre console


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #330, 10-20-2008 07:58 PM
     
How'd it run at Waterford? I got down to the 25th just on sat tho .


Im still workin on the LE5/L61 hybrid issues. If I can get it tuned before snow flys, it WILL be running on E85 by april.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #331, 10-21-2008 08:38 AM
      i was really happy with the way it ran .with the broad power band , i could run the whole track without shifting out of third gear .the handling was great .if i got sideways , the car was easy to straighten out without having the rear end come around .i didnt do a lot of laps because my rear bumper was sending out smoke from the tailpipe being too close to the plastic and when they flagged me for it ,i noticed my turbo hanger was broken .since i still had to drive home i called it a day .next time i will be better prepped .the number of cars there meant you could put a lot of laps in .the organizers did a great job .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #332, 10-24-2008 02:33 AM
      i am working on getting the turbo to work without an oil scavenger pump .to do this i am going to use the cavalier exhaust manifold with the turbo bolted directly to it like i did originally .only this time i am going to rotate the compressor in in relation to the turbine so that the oil return line points straight down .this will give me a gravity drop directly to the oil pan .but i will have to make a custom bracket to hold the waste gate on .before:

after:


Bremertonfiero (anderson.b@wavecable.com) MSG #333, 10-25-2008 01:54 AM
      can u post some pics of the engine bay over all shots espeicaly on areas where clearence is tight?
Thanks and at the end of the build can u give a (as detailed as possible ) list of parts you used?
thanks and i aperciate it i know im asking alot.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #334, 10-25-2008 10:57 PM
      waste gate actuator modded :

just have to extend the actuator rod with some flat stock:

this is the epoxy i use to seal and lock things in place like the bolts holding the actuator:

as far as a build list goes ,it would take me a while to come up with one .the next ecotec build i do the build list is going to read : one 2005 2.2 litre ecotec powered cavalier + miscelaneous steel and piping .Cavaliers are getting to be pretty cheap used .
there are no real clearance issues .i dented the passenger side strut tower to clear the upper engine mount and a notch in the cradle for the AC compressor .there is lots of room for this motor .


Bremertonfiero (anderson.b@wavecable.com) MSG #335, 10-25-2008 11:51 PM
      ok im gunna use tranny and the computer as well as the clutch

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #336, 10-27-2008 10:45 PM
      my build list (normally aspirated ) :
2.2 ecotec with f23 5 speed with clutch hydraulics still attatched from 2003 cavalier ,original rubber motor and tranny mounts still on .
steering collumn with ignition switch and key .
complete engine and car wiring harness with ecm and bcm .
cavalier fuel pump assembly with wiring harness attatched .
cavalier instrument cluster
other than the usual assortment of nuts and bolts and hoses and about 50 bucks worth of steel from the local hardware store , i think thats about it .
i will do an accurate turbo list once i finish this years final (i hope) version .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #337, 11-03-2008 09:48 AM
     
actuator rod extended .after i mounted the turbo and exhaust manifold back on the car , i realized i still have a problem with the oil return line. i have close to 6 inches of fall down to oil level in the pan , but the CV joint and axle are in the way .i have on order from Hahn racecraft an oil feed and return kit that uses the oil drain hole to send the oil back in so i wont have to worry about getting past the CV joint .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #338, 11-03-2008 09:58 AM
     
this is my new oil feed ,on the block instead of the cylinder head .the head feed worked fine but i was told that it bleeds off too much oil that the valve assembly needs .so ,better safe than sorry .since i will have a gravity return feed , i eliminated the check valve .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #339, 11-05-2008 11:08 PM
      after a few frustrating days trying to get my turbo to not leak oil without a return pump , i had to give up and put the pump back on .but it still leaked oil even with the pump in place .i took the tubo apart thinking that i might have gotten something misaligned or some crap got in it .cleaned it , reassembled it and got the oil dump pointing straight down and put it back on and it still leaked .the problem seems to be the new return dump pipe that came with the no drill oil kit .it is noticeably smaller than the stock one(3/8" ID vs 1/2"ID) in order to utilize the 1/2"silicone hose that came with the kit .it was causing the oil to back up inside the turbo whenever i revved the engine past 3000 rpm .i put the stock dump pipe back on with some 1/2"ID hose to the pump and now i am smoke free again .but i still have the evac pump .i am going to try just running a larger line to the fitting on the oil pan and see if i can do away with the pump but not tonight .i have had enough oil slopped around for one night .i got my new turbo down pipe welded up and bolted on and have completed the new charge pipe .i am waiting on my new muffler and air cleaner to complete the exhaust and new cold air intake system .the weather has been so nice i wish i could go for a spin .i was shopping in shorts and a tee shirt today it was so warm up here . pics:






the round bronze can is the solstice cat i got from mallet cars .notice how everything tucks up nicely underneath .hopefully i will be able to hide the mufler up there too .i am installing duals again and the goal is just to have the tips showing .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #340, 11-05-2008 11:31 PM
      missing picture:



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #341, 11-07-2008 05:46 PM
      sorry about the double post .for a while that pic was a red x so i put it up again .here is a shot of the turbo with the AEM boost controller solinoid mounted .i also mocked up an old muffler and tips to see how much i can hide .i was sitting on the floor and the car is on jackstands and the muffler is barely visible from that angle .with the car on the ground i dont think it will be visible within 50 feet .



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #342, 11-12-2008 11:26 PM
      got my new muffler and a new air filter in the mail today .got the exhaust mostly figured out :

just have to clamp it all together now and decide on some tips .have to work on the rest of my intake .join this:

to this :

and put this in between:

the open end of the air filter housing fits right over the original cold air inlet that the blue coupling in the picture is attatched to .the coupling will not be used .this will give me a better source of outside air than having the filter shoved up behind the passenger side door .i started it up and i really like the new sound .if i ever learn how to post a video i will give everyone a listen .it has lost the bit of raspyness it used to have and sounds deeper .a little quieter to .i am off to work 12 hour days thurs and friday and then off to mesquite nevada for some golf for a week.when i get back i will figure out exhaust tips and finish the intake .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #343, 11-23-2008 01:51 PM
      the new intake is almost complete .the piping is 2.5"OD diameter stainless made from bends and straight pipe i got from summit racing .the couplings are 2.5 " ID from silicone intakes .com .they have a great website and the only place that i found the blow off valve T 's that i used for the recirculating BOV that i am using because my engine uses a map sensor .if you use a maf sensor you dont need to recirc your BOV .i dont have that option .pictures:




Primaris MSG #344, 11-25-2008 01:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

the new intake is almost complete .the piping is 2.5"OD diameter stainless made from bends and straight pipe i got from summit racing .the couplings are 2.5 " ID from silicone intakes .com .they have a great website and the only place that i found the blow off valve T 's that i used for the recirculating BOV that i am using because my engine uses a map sensor .if you use a maf sensor you dont need to recirc your BOV .i dont have that option .pictures:


I'm pretty sure you have that backwards. If you have a Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) you can vent pressurized air. If you have a Mass Air Flow (MAF) meter you need to recirculate the air. The reason being the air between the MAF and the throttle plate is measured, so you would be venting air 'accounted' for by the ECU. With a MAP system whenever you close the throttle the intake sees vacuum, so unless you are venting the intake plenum then a boosted closed throttle is pretty much the same as naturally aspirated closed throttle.




wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #345, 11-25-2008 03:02 PM
      that was based on something i read when i first set up the turbo .you are probably right , now that i have read the explanation .but it doesnt hurt to recirc it so i am going to leave it the way it is .i want to get some matching silicone hose ,would look better than the black recirc hose i am using now .some people like the extra noise made by a vented BOV but i like the more muted sound of a recirc BOV .you can still hear it from inside the car and it still sounds neat .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #346, 11-28-2008 11:27 AM
      now that the intake and exhaust are finished , i decided to relocate the water meth system out of the trunk .when i changed the turbo back to a direct bolt on setup ,i also relocated the heater and turbo cooling lines .they now run along the firewall towards the passenger side and then back and over the exhaust manifold .this freed up all the space over the transaxle for the new intake plumbing and to relocate the watermeth pump .i also moved the ecotec fuse blocks .the small one is now inside the car and the large fuse holder is under the drivers side vent .it has a cover on it so it wont matter if it gets wet .i am going to use the windshield washer tank for both the injection system and washing the windshield . it is a much bigger tank than what came with the kit and then i can have a trunk completely free of any equipment .maybe i will even carpet it again .i am redoing things on the car from the back to the front .once i have the watermeth reinstalled , i am going to run the wiring for my AEM guage type boost controller .then it will be time for the interiour mods which will include a new centre consule and stereo .new seats would be nice but not in the budget for this year .on the front end i have a worn steering rack bushing to fix and one headlight actuator to rebuild .thats all in the plan for this year , hope i can git er done .

finished exhaust :


Santa Nic (santa_nic@shaw.ca) MSG #347, 11-29-2008 03:17 PM
      As you can see, I'm a "newby" here and just had to comment on your thread. I'm impressed, not only with the detail of the thread, but with the finnished swap. Remounting the turbo and cleaning up the piping was well worth the many extra hours of work. I just read in an hour what took you years to do. I have just aquired an 86 Fastback GT and plan on keeping it stock. Clean and restore are my goals. I'm not as ambitious as you are. Thanks for a very enjoyable time reading about your build

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #348, 11-29-2008 08:33 PM
      thanks for reading my thread .i dont get too many replies so it is encouraging when other people post .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #349, 12-04-2008 03:52 PM
      today i finished putting the water meth injection system in to the engine compartment :

turned my ecotec 2.2 valve cover sticker around:

this is where the feed for the water meth comes from now .out of the oem windshield washertank near the fluid pump :

i have tomrrow off so i hope to get all the turbo boost reference lines run to the water meth system ,vortec FMU and to the AEM boost controller .


fieroboom (fieroboom@gmail.com) MSG #350, 12-04-2008 04:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

thanks for reading my thread .i dont get too many replies so it is encouraging when other people post .


Few replies does not mean few readers... I've read your entire thread at least 4 times now, and I love it! + to you for being innovative, creative, and fabricative (it's ok, it's a dubya word...)



ICouldaBeenAV8 (donotbotherspamming@gmail.com) MSG #351, 12-05-2008 01:05 AM
      Ditto! Following avidly.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #352, 12-05-2008 02:27 AM
      Fabricative ! i like that .thanks for the replies .

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #353, 12-08-2008 12:51 PM
      Hey there,

Long time since ive posted on your thread, everythings looking good! Ive been patiently waiting for more parts to arrive to get started on my winter projects. And saving (and ALOT of that) for kerosene to heat my shop so i can actually work lol.


Looks good we are going to have to meet sometime this up coming summer.

Check out Ecotecforum.com you should get some interest there as well.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #354, 12-08-2008 04:52 PM
      i was on ecotec forum quite a bit when i first put the turbo on .lots of great info there and the people are very helpful .i mostly just lurk on there now .i like your new motor .the honda guys call a combo like yours a frankenstein motor .another forum with lots of good info is the HP Tuners forum .my garage is not heated and the last couple of days i have not been out there much .i did get a start on my new centre consule :


i got a new stereo to put in .nothing special except it has dvd playing on a small screen .


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #355, 12-08-2008 11:29 PM
      I only have a few more mods to the motor to do this winter, sadly I think I have to wait on cams. Im planning on a front splitter and hood extractor for aerodynamics and to get rid of some of the height. I put Konis/Eibach on it earlier and its getting grand am brakes all the way around, all planned to be done before march, that and ALOT of tuning!

Center console is lookin good


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #356, 12-16-2008 05:22 PM
      going pretty slow on the centre console .cold out in the garage so a lot of cut and fit and then take inside to glue and dry and back out for more cutting and fitting .starting to look close to what i want .these parts will be painted with a textured finish that i hope will match the rest of the interiour .covering in vinyl might be an option but thats a job i would have to hire out .if i was more ambitious i would make a mold and make it out of fibreglass .all the corners will be rounded off with a router and then sanded smooth .you can make MDF look like plastic if you sand it right .i have one more piece to glue in and then i will figure out the cupholders and PW and PM switches .




Eau_Rouge MSG #357, 12-16-2008 10:55 PM
      Center console looks very nice, been thinking about doing something similar myself.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #358, 12-16-2008 11:17 PM
      thanks .the reason i have to make a new one is the original console wont fit over my modified shifter linkage .and a friend of mine said the first console i built was "redneckish".i had to agree with him .but it did have cup holders .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #359, 01-10-2009 04:18 PM
      got some work done on the new centre console .installed the mount for the power windows and mirrors and made the cup holders .next will be cutting the mount holes for the AEM boost guage and oil press. and voltmeter guages.i also will be adding at least two 12 volt outlets .almost ready for paint :




after i paint , i am going to make a padded arm rest that will be kept in place with velcro .this will also hide the mounting screws .


BlackGT Codde (dakotaford1991@gmail.com) MSG #360, 01-10-2009 10:10 PM
      oooohh an armrest now im really super mega jealous....
seriously i like it. really neat.
nice to see how you bypassed that key.
man arent those things annoying


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #361, 01-11-2009 01:24 AM
      thanks .yes the cavalier key in the console box was really annoying .having to turn on the fiero key and then reaching behind your back to start the engine sucked .but that was only the first summer , and it was great to get the car running .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #362, 01-11-2009 01:40 AM
      i gotta do it .I OWN PAGE 10 .......YAHOO

Twilight Fenrir MSG #363, 01-11-2009 03:18 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

i got tired of trying to stuff everything under the old fiero centre glovebox so i built a new housing.gives me a place to mount the boost controller and boost guage .


Now, you just need to get a red back-light for that gauge, and make your car say, "Good Morning Dave" when you turn it on :P [/off-topic humor]


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #364, 01-11-2009 02:16 PM
      that is my old console that a friend of mine called "red neckish ".it looked terrible but i was in a hurry when i built it .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #365, 01-12-2009 12:09 AM
      got some paint on the centre console :


AEM guage type boost controller and new voltmeter :

i hope the paint will be hard enough to put it in the car tomorrow but it might have to sit a while .i have tomorrow off as well so i should be able to make the armrest pad .
i ordered a flushmount headlight kit from norms fibreglass .i tried to get a used one through the mall but got no replies .they must work OK if nobody wants to part with a set .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #366, 01-15-2009 04:34 PM
      got the new console in the car today .i pre-wired the guages and i was going to hook it all up but it is waaay below freezing right now so finishing it off and getting the new stereo in will have to wait .but at least i am getting to see what it is going to look like .my first attempt at the armrest pad was a flop so that is yet to do .i am thinking about a subwoofer to fancy it up a bit .




beer cans are for demo purposes only .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #367, 01-20-2009 05:14 PM
      centre console is finally done .



now i have to figure out how the boost controller works .i hate reading instructions .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #368, 01-27-2009 03:56 PM
      since i already had one lame pop up headlight and while have been working on the car this winter the other onecrapped out , i decided to order a set of flush mounts from norms fibreglass .took the old doors off and pulled out the old units .total weight of everything i am not using is around 17 lbs so there should be some weight savings here .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #369, 02-02-2009 03:28 PM
      i got some rubber backed carpet squares from wal mart because they looked like they would make a nice arm rest pad for my console .they come in a package of 4 2' X 4' panels so i had enough to also carpet the bottom of my trunk .i took another picture that shows better how my exhaust is now tucked up out of the way where the bottom of my trunk used to be .there is a lot of debate over wether or no to keep the trunk stock or not .with an ecotec the exhaust comes out right where the stock muffler is .so the only way to retain the trunk area is with a custom header setup or a long and convaluted routing over the tranny and back the way the stock piping goes .but when you get back to where the stock muffler used to be there are now pipes in the way so you have to run a tube style muffler and you get the idea .the cleanest looking setup for ecotecs is Roger Thelins header setup that he sells .but it does not allow the use of a cat so i did not go that route .in the picture you can see how much higher the muffler sits above the bottom of the frame .and the cat is hidden above that .i have a layer of foil backed heat insulation under the carpet .it does get hot under the trunk .since the turbo is now bolted direct to the manifold i did not heat wrap any of the piping .







Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #370, 02-02-2009 04:25 PM
      Looking good, I didnt like your center console at first, but now it makes sense and is more practical, itd be very easy to moun a camera on top!

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #371, 02-02-2009 06:30 PM
      thanks . i think i am going to mount my gps there .along with the new cell phone laws ,the ontario goverment is banning anything that hangs off the windshield .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #372, 02-10-2009 05:23 PM
      one thing i have not been happy with is the night lighting of my instrument cluster .in a cavalier with an ecotec , the instruments are led back lit .i have been trying to find which wire turns this feature on (and voltage involved )without success .so i found this LED strip at wal-mart :

it has a self adhesive back allowing me to mount it shining down on the cluster .the old way it was lit was just with some of the old bulbs that light the oem cluster .this worked , but caused too much windshield reflection .this setup should solve the problem :

it is coloured more blue than white .the flash takes the colour away .with the flash off it looks more blue than it really is :

here are some pics of how i mounted the cavalier cluster , i had to cut it down width wise and remove the clear plastic cover .i made a plexi cover that i mounted on some pieces of the old fiero mounts :


the back of the cluster where i screwed it to the fiero cluster surround :

this fiero piece is not re used but i have kept it so i can figure out what wire feeds what :

.i was missing the brake warning light so i added that while i had everything apart . i should have it all back together tomorow .still waiting on my flushmount headlights .


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #373, 02-10-2009 05:48 PM
      I like it!

Dave E Bouy (doctorfiero@gmail.com) MSG #374, 02-10-2009 07:22 PM
      Hey wftb have you ever been to any of the SOFA events in and around London? I'd love to have a look at your swap sometime. We're having a dinner March 1st in Kitchener. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum1/HTML/074422.html It would be a bit of haul for ya but I'm coming from the Sarnia area. We'd love to have you come out!

Dave


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #375, 02-11-2009 12:26 PM
      i would really like to hook up with the SOFA group but i work 12 hour rotating shifts and the events just havent lined up with my schedule so far .this summer i will try to take some time off to go to one of the cruises .the dinner i would have been able to make but i will be in mexico....

Dave E Bouy (doctorfiero@gmail.com) MSG #376, 02-11-2009 08:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

i would really like to hook up with the SOFA group but i work 12 hour rotating shifts and the events just havent lined up with my schedule so far .this summer i will try to take some time off to go to one of the cruises .the dinner i would have been able to make but i will be in mexico....

Well we look forward to meeting you.


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #377, 02-11-2009 09:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

i would really like to hook up with the SOFA group but i work 12 hour rotating shifts and the events just havent lined up with my schedule so far .this summer i will try to take some time off to go to one of the cruises .the dinner i would have been able to make but i will be in mexico....


Need to make an event I am at! Where else could there possibly be TWO EcotecFieros in one place? lol

Im looking at the Charity event in Indianapolis in May right now...


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #378, 02-12-2009 08:28 AM
      i definitely want to see your car , fosgate .i was hoping to see you at the 25th but i was only there thursday and part of friday .maybe this summer will be better for getting to events but my odds are always against it .i lose two weekends every month to work .

Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #379, 02-14-2009 10:44 AM
      This may be a little late but here is a source for ready made Ecotec Fiero swap parts.
http://www.noidearecords.com/thelinsells/kits.html
Anyone who successfully completes this swap certainly has my respect. IMO it is one of the most difficult Fiero engine swaps to do. Can wait to see how the one featured in the post comes out. Roger Thelin the guy that sells the swap parts, drives an Ecotec Fiero, and I would guess that it took him a long time to figure out everything.
Painless Wiring is also working on a stand alone Ecotec harness so more help is on the way.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #380, 02-14-2009 02:22 PM
      thanks for the link dennis .i like roger's stuff .my next eco swap will use his shifter kit.i prefer to make my own mounts though .fosgatecavy is making a megasquirt based engine management complete harness and is taking orders now for this product .so , really all the hard stuff can already be bought rather than made up like i did .so i dont think this is that difficult a swap any more .and when i did mine it just didnt seem that hard .i had it running in 6 weeks .i like to think of the fiero as more of a rolling chassis than a complete car .so when i got the entire wiring harness from the cavalier and saw how plug and play everything was , it was a piece of cake to get the car running .i dont believe in getting everything done at once .i like to make the improvements as i go so that the car can be driven more often than not .in the summer i dont do any job that i cant complete in less than a weekend .
it would be nice if roger thelin would do a build thread .i would like to see what he did for wiring .


Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #381, 02-14-2009 06:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

thanks for the link dennis .i like roger's stuff .my next eco swap will use his shifter kit.i prefer to make my own mounts though .fosgatecavy is making a megasquirt based engine management complete harness and is taking orders now for this product .so , really all the hard stuff can already be bought rather than made up like i did .so i dont think this is that difficult a swap any more .and when i did mine it just didnt seem that hard .i had it running in 6 weeks .i like to think of the fiero as more of a rolling chassis than a complete car .so when i got the entire wiring harness from the cavalier and saw how plug and play everything was , it was a piece of cake to get the car running .i dont believe in getting everything done at once .i like to make the improvements as i go so that the car can be driven more often than not .in the summer i dont do any job that i cant complete in less than a weekend .
it would be nice if roger thelin would do a build thread .i would like to see what he did for wiring .


My idea of a Ecotec swap would be one that utilized the stock PCM. I'm not sure how that PCM functions or what the magic is to solving the interface issues but there is aftermarket support for it. I'm sure that you can use a Megasquirt for engine management but you'd have to build all the tables like the VE, AE, MAF, PE from scratch. GM has already done this so if the GM PCM could be suitably trimmed to disable all of the un-necessary functions it should work fine. Don't know if anyone has done this as yet. How is your powertrain management working out?



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #382, 02-15-2009 12:57 PM
      i use the ecm and bcm and all the wiring from the cavalier that my engine and tranny came from .i also have the cavvy fuel pump assembly .i just got rid of the light harness and anything i figured i wouldnt need .i have HP tuners to setup my turbo and get rid of vats .my car runs like it came from the factory , because the electronics running it did come from the factory .but with megasquirt , it would be easier to utilize the stock fiero guages .i use a cavalier guage cluster .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #383, 02-20-2009 11:19 AM
      now that i have my changes to the interiour all finished for this year , i am moving on to the front end .the bearing cap fell off of my drivers side front wheel hub sometime during the summer .it caused a slight rattle that i couldnt figure out till i took the wheel off and found the cap sitting in the centre of the wheel .it looked like the wheel sealed everything enough to keep water and crap out but i took it apart to be sure .nothing got inside so i just added a bit of grease and put it back together .but it got me thinking about nicer rotors .there was a thread started about using evo rotors but i am not having much luck finding it .but i took some measurements of my street dreams spindle and hub setup :

centre of hub diameter : 2.40 " stock : 2.28 "
hub overall diameter : 5.25 " 5.48 " with ridge cut off , mine still have a ridge
spindle to hub face : 3.16 " 3.34 "
stock cut down firo spindles :

i dont want bigger rotors (currently 11") . i can stop like a porsche already and i dont want to add unsprung weight .i might try to adapt some wilwood 4 piston calipers .making a mounting braket looks pretty simple .in the meantime if any one knows of any modern cars that use the 5X100 bolt pattern let me know so i can see if they will fit .


Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #384, 02-21-2009 02:34 AM
      A bunch of German cars. Ask BMWguru.

Few I know of: Audi TT, VW Jetta, VW Golf, VW Eos (BMWguru would know the rest of them, and the various rotor/caliper sizes)

I think either the Subaru, or the Mitsu Evolution have a 5x100 bolt pattern as well.
Scion Tc I think has a 5x100 bolt pattern as well.



fieroboom (fieroboom@gmail.com) MSG #385, 02-21-2009 11:34 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Austrian Import:

A bunch of German cars. Ask BMWguru.

Few I know of: Audi TT, VW Jetta, VW Golf, VW Eos (BMWguru would know the rest of them, and the various rotor/caliper sizes)

I think either the Subaru, or the Mitsu Evolution have a 5x100 bolt pattern as well.
Scion Tc I think has a 5x100 bolt pattern as well.


Toyota Celica

Lookin good!
-Paul



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #386, 02-21-2009 03:34 PM
      i have found quite a few that have the right bolt pattern ,but most of the sites dont list the specs i need before i order .so i found some EBC lebaron rotors (early 90's ) at summit racing part # GD 7217 .these look to be the same as what i have but they are plated and dimpled and slotted .so a big improvement .153.00 for the pair .also for a nice caliper upgrade stainless steel brakes SSB A181 for 409.95 with pads and new bolts .also even nicer powder coated for 519.95 .sot of waffling on this purchase , as what i have now works great .thanks for all the replies .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #387, 02-21-2009 04:25 PM
      i went and bought a stock 93 lebaron rotor and the specs listed on the summit part # do not match the actual rotor .the stock rotor is only 10.25 dia and has 1/4" less offset .other than that it fits perfect ,but i dont want a smaller rotor and i dont want to shim my caliper .so back to the web i go .EBC GD 7217 will not work .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #388, 02-22-2009 08:52 AM
      after investigating further , i found out that chrysler put up to three different sizes of discs on the same vehicle , depending on stock rim size .so i think i have found some that will work.the discs i have now are 11" vented rear discs off one of the lebaron models .i found a part #but no demensions .i am going to adapt a front rotor , wrong offset but i have room to move the bracket .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #389, 02-22-2009 05:07 PM
      found these wagner rotors at canadian tire :

they have 1/4" less offset so i had to do some more shimming .but they fit far better than my old roters and because they dont have the parking brake drum they weigh 1.5 lbs less .the centre hole only had to be honed out .003" . my hone that i made from an old cylinder hone:

i painted the new rotors with black high heat paint .the swept area wears off in about a hundred feet of driving and the rest then stays rust free .

i am going to stick with my old calipers for now .here is the old rotor :

the new rotors have much better runout and the pads are centred better on the disc .with the old rotors the pads have developed a ridge .i am getting new pads tomorrow .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #390, 02-23-2009 06:46 PM
      just wanted to warn everybody that the wagner discs in my post above do not fit the cut down fiero hubs .the centre hole on the disc is too big .they fit my street dreams spindles just right .got the other side on and installed new pads today .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #391, 02-24-2009 05:51 PM
      this is the ridge that developed on my old pads :

the new pads sit much much better on the new rotors .i installed a tomtom GPS in the car today .i offset it to the right as i am thinking of getting a different boost controller .the AEM unit is not user friendly at all as far as i am concerned .my turbo does not develop boost unless it is under load so at this point all i know is that it is reading pressure .cant tell if it is actually controlling untill spring time .



fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #392, 02-26-2009 12:24 AM
      hey wftb:

Do you know if all ecotecs have the same bolt pattern? I'm thinking of picking up a 2.4 and doing like you did with the wiring, (ie keeping all the stock stuff) and using roger's kits for the mounts and shifter. Thing is, I'm not sure if the 2.4 came with an F23 stock, or if it didn't, if an F23 would bolt up to a 2.4. Main reason being that Roger's shifter kit is for the F23 and I know the F35 is much more complex to adapt. I know the 2.4 has VVT and drive by wire TB, and I've read somewhere that it has a forged crank but cast rods, but I can't confirm this. Another downside to the 2.4 route is that it's a far less common engine in yards than is the 2.2. As far as I know, only the G5 GT, the non-super Cobalt SS, and the Non-turbo solstice and Sky have this engine, and these are certainly lower volume cars that those that have the 2.2. Heck, they might even be lower volume than the 2.0 liter versions. Any guidance on this?



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #393, 02-26-2009 09:59 AM
      the 2.4 has a better crank and better rods .it was an opton motor in cobalts , i dont think it was ever put in to the cavalier .all ecotecs have the same bolt pattern and share the same architecture IE a 2.4 head will fit a 2.2 , exhaust manifolds interchange etc .most differences are in the oil pans .they vary a lot .if the 2.4 has the f35 then you need the axles that they come with on a cobalt .the stock motor on the cobalt ss model is the 2.4 .the turbo and old super charged motors are/were optional .

fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #394, 03-02-2009 12:47 AM
      Ok so next question: Is that bolt pattern the same for GM's new high-feature V6 engines? The 3.6L DI VVT and such?



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #395, 03-02-2009 10:35 PM
      I run the 2.4L bottom end, with the 2.2L head, One of the big differences with them is the L61 and LE5 ecotecs have a 6 bolt crank for the flywheel, the LSJ (2.0sc) runs a 8 bolt.

I also am using the 2.2L oil pan on my 2.4L, I didnt find any differences.


And no the ecotecs do not share any of the v6 patterns.


fierodeletre (b7gwap@hotmail.com) MSG #396, 03-04-2009 01:43 AM
      Foz- have you noticed in your travels what manual tranny they tend to attach to the 2.4?



Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #397, 03-07-2009 12:47 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fierodeletre:

Foz- have you noticed in your travels what manual tranny they tend to attach to the 2.4?



I believe its the same as the 2.2s

Actually all the motors ive looked at for ecotec stuff have all been autos


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #398, 03-14-2009 07:03 PM
      the 2.0 motors have different oil pans .i have been waiting on parts to get back on the road now that it has mostly stopped snowing and the salt trucks are not out as much .i needed to rebuild my steering rack . i took it all apart and got the parts from rodney dickman .not a fun job but i had developed slop on the passenger side that caused jumping around on rough roads .i made a removal / install tool with some 3/4 rod , two nuts and two washers .you have to round off the one nut with a grinder so it will fit inside the rack tube .once you do that you slip it in where thepinion sits and slide the rod in and thread it on .then put the two washers on the rod at the bearing end and tighten until the bushing pops loose .to install the new bearing just get it started by hand and then slide the full size nut up against it and put the washers and the rounded nut (or a normal nut , i should have bought 3 ) at the pinion end and tighten untill the bearing hits tight to the shoulder inside the rack tube .here are some pictures that explain this i hope .i am sure someone makes a puller but i dont have one .




so the rack is now back on the car and it is ready to drive again as soon as i put the wheels back on .but i am still waiting on my flushmounts from norms fibreglass .he said he would get them to me before april so they should show up soon .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #399, 03-20-2009 11:59 PM
      i got the steering rack back on and took it for a ride to day .it ran pretty good but the boost controller operated eratically .i tried a bunch of times to set it up according to the instructions but every time the boost levels were unpredictable .so i removed the solinoid from the line that goes from the charge pipe to the waste gate and replaced it with a straight hose .now max boost will be 8 psi but it should be fairly steady and not spike like i was seeing .so my boost controller is now just an expensive guage .oh well it does look nice .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #400, 03-24-2009 10:41 PM
      with the turbo now back to its stock configuration the boost guage now shows 10.75 psi of boost maximum .since i was planning on running a max of 12 psi , i am going to leave it the way it is and not bother with a different boost controller .with the new intake and charge piping system i am running now the boost builds very quickly from 2000 rpm in top gear .from a standstill the boost is there as soon as you punch it .so i am happy with the power level .scans show everything working pretty good , a little KR but i am not too worried about that .i am going to look at my old tune and lean it out a bit on the PE table .with the FMU upping the fuel pressure under boost i dont need the computer enriching it too .i need a wide band O2 , that is going to be my next purchase .it will hook up to my HP tuners interface .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #401, 03-24-2009 10:53 PM
      picture of my new brake discs and the car on the road again :



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #402, 03-27-2009 02:01 PM
      every winter i make improvements to my car .then i drive it and some of the improvements turn out to be a step backwards .this year it was my new air cleaner:

turns out it just isnt big enough to flow enough air .the engine was running out of power at 5500 rpm .so i had to revert to the old filter and make up a rain shield to keep the water off it .the new filter had an open ended cone cover built in to it so a water shield was not needed .fake carbon fibre too so it looked nice .but it has a very small amount of filter area and was not up to the task .pcs of my new setup:



i put some padding on the edges that does double duty to also funnel the water away from the filter .now the car pulls strong up to 7000 rpm again .much more fun .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #403, 04-07-2009 11:56 PM
      did a bit of tuning on the car .after i changed some things on the PE and HO timing charts last summer i thought it ran pretty good but it seemed rich and my gas mileage dropped a bit .but i left it that way because i did not have time to mess with it .i came to realize that most of the changes to the timing were unnecasary because the water meth injection and the vortech FMU was doing the same thing as the changes i made in the PE table .other things i had done to the tune seemed to be causing my LTFT trim to be in the red at anything below 2000 rpm and the timing dropped drastically at anything over 10 % throttle opening .i realize now that the tune i borrowed was for an engine without water meth or an FMU .so i put the tune back to mostly stock and scans i have taken show a big improvement in LTFT , the timing stays up where it should be and there is less KR and my mileage is back up to 32 mpg town driving /40 mpg hwy .the motor is idling and running smoother now as well as feeling a lot stronger in the upper revs .some people would now say that since my tune is so close to stock then what do you need HP tuners for? so this is the changes i made to the tune and car with HP tuners:
1-injector constant changed to 0.13350 for the 32 lb injectors .
2-speedometer change to 23200 ppm to correct for 245/50/16 tires .
3-redline changed to 7000 rpm .
4-speed limiter raised to 150 mph .
5-VATS deactivated .
6-raised idle to 1000 rpm .
not huge changes but all things that make the car better for me .HP tuners is not cheap (the MPVI pro package i have was 650.00) .but i think it has been well worth the moneyespecially for the diagnostic tools .i like driving with my laptop connected and seeing all the engine parameters as i drive along .i can also delete any thrown code with a stroke of the keyboard .i went on a little holiday this week to the monday practice round of the masters .had a great time .but now i come home to my fiero covered in snow and freezing temps .hope it all melts tomorrow .norm says my flush mounts are being shipped this week .it will be nice to drive at night again .


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #404, 04-08-2009 03:48 PM
      What brakes did you put on it? I just got done with my Berreta Brakes all the way around

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #405, 04-11-2009 09:04 AM
      the kit i bought originally was from RCC .it came with 4 Lebaron rear rotors ,camaro front calipers ,cadilac rears with the parking brake built in ,and front aluminum hubs and custom mounting brackets .but the rotors fit too sloppy on the hubs so i sent the hubs back to get a ring made to make the discs fit better .the guy at RCC swore up and down they were the right size but they did not fit the discs he sent me .he never sent them back to me , inspite of numerous calls and emails .while i was waiting i had the discs cut off and ran the stock hubs that fit perfectly with the lebaron discs .the setup has evolved to include street dreams drop spindles and the new front discs i just put on .if i do another fiero i would just buy the caliper brackets from a supplier and source everything else out myself .i would stick with the 11" discs because i just cant see needing any more stopping power than i have now .the increase in unsprung weight is not worth it .i got back from Georgia tuesday night and got greeted by a snow storm and the fiero was covered in 6 inches of the white stuff .global warming , what a bunch of BS .

Stubby79 MSG #406, 04-11-2009 09:18 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

i got back from Georgia tuesday night and got greeted by a snow storm and the fiero was covered in 6 inches of the white stuff .global warming , what a bunch of BS .




wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #407, 04-25-2009 07:03 AM
      i have been playing around with my tune getting everything setup for the summer and i discovered a neat feature of my HP tuners software .i noticed that when you are on the display chart page it also has a timing feature .you cant turn it on or off , but if you pause the scrolling , you can use the cursor to calculate how long to do 0-60 runs by plotting your 0 point and then your 60 mph point because speed is also shown on the charts .so i took my HP tuners plug in recorder out to the car(i dont need the laptop to record a run ) hooked it up and went for a rip .so on a straight stretch of slightly uphill road i did a 0-60 mph run in 5.48 seconds .a personal best .

Eau_Rouge MSG #408, 04-25-2009 07:46 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

i have been playing around with my tune getting everything setup for the summer and i discovered a neat feature of my HP tuners software .i noticed that when you are on the display chart page it also has a timing feature .you cant turn it on or off , but if you pause the scrolling , you can use the cursor to calculate how long to do 0-60 runs by plotting your 0 point and then your 60 mph point because speed is also shown on the charts .so i took my HP tuners plug in recorder out to the car(i dont need the laptop to record a run ) hooked it up and went for a rip .so on a straight stretch of slightly uphill road i did a 0-60 mph run in 5.48 seconds .a personal best .


Damn, that's no slouch! Can't wait to ge me an ecotec!


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #409, 04-25-2009 06:11 PM
      thanks .it does seem noticeably faster than last year's version .the problems that are showing up though is my intake air temp is still too high during a full throttle run , not extreme about 40*C and my LTFT trim is in the red below 1500 rpm.my KR is way down to the point of almost non existant , that is the one major improvement so far .

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #410, 04-26-2009 01:59 PM
      Good stuff, bump for ya.

Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #411, 04-26-2009 08:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:
on a straight stretch of slightly uphill road i did a 0-60 mph run in 5.48 seconds .a personal best .


Wow!! That's awesome. Now I'm getting even more into EcoTec's.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #412, 05-02-2009 04:25 PM
      my new headlights came from Norm's fibreglass the other day .Norm threw in a battery box because i was waitng a while for these .that was great of him , a pleasant and useful surprize .they fit great , an easy install in about an hour because i already had the old lights out .





you have to drill one hole per side .the plexi fits well , if i wasnt so lazy i would do a little sanding and make it perfect .i am really happy with this product .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #413, 05-05-2009 11:07 PM
      i decided to do a small mod to my new lights .i decided to add proper factory connectors to the setup rather than the semi hard wired setup that norm sent .norms wiring looked and worked fine but i wanted that factory look .so i went down to the local parts store and asked about new connectors and i got the usual answer : go to the wrecking yard .so off to Huron auto wreckers i went and after half a lap of the yard we found a 1993 grand prix and i got four factory connectors for 5 bucks .the high beam connectors are actually different from the low beams so you cant get them mixed up .info i got is GM only used these slim line headlights for 3 years .i think i will order a few spares in case they disappear completely .here are some pics:
with factory connectors

stock from norm:

i aimed the the headlights and then took it for a ride and they work better than my old stock headlights and i think they look better too .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #414, 05-17-2009 06:53 PM
      i have been driving the car a lot and not working on it much .it is running really well, i want to make some minor changes to the timing charts but i have been too lazy too bother .one thing i tried was to use the Hahn racecraft no drill turbo oiling system without the evacuation pump .i added a T in the drain line and ran it to the top of the engine compartment to vent the line .this did not work at all , the oil spewed out of the vent line and i was blowing blue smoke everywhere .the problem is the fitting that Hahn provides you with that goes in to the oil pan drain hole is way to small .so i put the pump back on but i did add a large bypass line that T's off below the turbo and loops down and back up to the hole i drilled and tapped where the factory drain hole goes .with the crankcase at negative pressure and a 2" total drop from the turbo to the oil pan inlet , this line gets rid of the excess oil during high rpm bursts an should provide a "limp home "mode should the pump fail .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #415, 05-31-2009 02:20 PM
      put in Norms battery box yesterday .looks much better than my homemade box and makes some room in the front trunk .before:

after:


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #416, 06-06-2009 04:08 AM
      my clutch slave cylinder packed it in today .and the local parts store cant get me one till wedsnday .i looked at the line from the front of the car and it is pretty well shot so i have splurged and ordered a new SS line from the fiero store .while i was in the mood to buy i ordered roger thelins transmission adapter kit .i mistakenly thought it was my homemade linkage that was giving me problems , so i ordered rogers kit to go back to a stock shifter.now that i know it was the slave , rogers kit will get installed next winter .the slave developed the same corrosion that they all seem to get .i pumped half a litre ot brake fluid through to clean the line .i will put the new line on in a couple of weeks as it will take that long to get to me .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #417, 06-06-2009 04:11 PM
      i also decided to get a water to air intercooler kit from frozen boost.com .the air to air didnt work too bad , but according to my HP Tuners temps under boost were still in the red zone . i didnt want to run lines all the way to the front .i got the the full deal,fan cooled rad , water pump , straight through intercooler and ice box too .when i get all this stuff , i will post some pics , and then my old intercooler will be for sale .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #418, 06-09-2009 09:17 PM
      my new slave came in a day early so i have the car running again .i got two new front tires today .i decided i did not like the rubber band look on the front and the old ones were worn bad from the front end being not quite right.i ended up with 205/16/55's to replace the 205/16/40's i had on .they fill the wheel well much better and ride much nicer .the old ones were making a lot of noise and now things are nice and quiet .i got a 4 wheel alignement done and took it out for a spin and thought i would see just how fast they would rotate .without incriminating myself , lets just say it is very easy to bury the needle now .the road was a little bumpy and the car hung right in there .here is a
pic of the new tire :


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #419, 06-22-2009 03:16 PM
     



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #420, 06-26-2009 11:19 AM
      my new air to water intercooler set up runs 12* C cooler under boost than my old air to air setup did .the old IC showed 40* C IAT under boost and the new one shows a max of 28* C .so it is a big improvement .

Eau_Rouge MSG #421, 06-28-2009 11:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

my new air to water intercooler set up runs 12* C cooler under boost than my old air to air setup did .the old IC showed 40* C IAT under boost and the new one shows a max of 28* C .so it is a big improvement .



Did you mount your heat exchanger up front - in front of the radiator? How does the fan work, does it come on automatically depending on inlet temps? If it does or can be made to do so, it would be great as it would help to control/eliminate heat soak.
That's a pretty impressive drop in temp...how much boost are you running again?
Now that your inlet temps have dropped so dramatically, do you still see a need for water/methanol?

Once again, great build and always look forward to reading about your updates!


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #422, 06-29-2009 11:47 PM
      i mounted the rad right in front of the lower rubber air dam .there is not enough room to get it vertical , but it seems to catch lots of air .i didnt want the fan running all the time , so it is wired on the same circuit as the water meth pump .when boost hits around 3 psi they both come on .the snow controller hits max injection at 8 psi and then both the water meth pump and the intercooler fan are going full out .i am still running at a max boost of 10.75 psi . i never did figure out how to get the AEM boost controller to work right but it makes a great boost guage .i am thinking about increasing my timing to get some more power , i get no KR at all now on a scan .i could up the boost instead but i would have to buy another controller .i dont really know what people mean when they talk about heat soak with regards to water to air intercoolers .with a constant flow of water from the tank to the rad to the IC and back to the tank i cant see anything but even temps all the way around .the IC is where my old air to air used to be , in the former cat converter location .
thanks for posting ,and thanks for helping my thread hit over 20,000 views .


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #423, 07-07-2009 09:52 PM
      Hey any engine bay pictures that are new? Im looking at doing something new with my intake. I am having some way high IATs with my current intake setup.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #424, 07-08-2009 11:38 PM
      nothing new in the engine bay these days .when i ran without the turbo i just hooked the stock 2.2 eco airbox to the stock 2.8 fiero cold air intake and air filter .that seemed to work really well .the stock fiero intake is one of the best flowing out there .i got my stuff from roger thelin the other day and i will post some pics .good to hear from you fosgate .

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #425, 07-09-2009 12:02 PM
      Yeah I have been going through alot of changes with my shop and office areas, my income has been severely smaller last few months and cars sitting in need of a new wideband. I am still driving it whenever I can just not much power



Eau_Rouge MSG #426, 07-24-2009 06:54 PM
      Wftb, how does the engine noise compare in your car with the ecotec versus the stock 2.8 you had before. Is is quieter? The reason I ask is because I am planning an ecotec SC swap and am hoping that the ecotec is quieter then the 2.8 that's in the car now.

Also, about how many km are you getting per tank of gas (my car is an 86SE v6 4 speed standard). I average about 320 km per tank and usually fill about 32 - 33 litres of fuel at each fill up, so that's around 10 litres per 100 km and this is about 80% highway/rural road (easy on the car) driving. I'm hoping that the ecotec will be more fuel efficient and raise my cruise range to atleast 400 km per tank under the same driving conditions. Is this realistic?

Thanks!

[This message has been edited by Eau_Rouge (edited 07-24-2009).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #427, 07-24-2009 09:22 PM
      the 2.8 was noisier but the muffler was shot so it is hard to make a comparison .when i did the swap i took a lot of the sound insulation off of the firewall.so i do get some unwanted valvetrain noise coming in to the cabin , but only at low speeds .when i drop the cradle to put in the shifter mods i bought from roger thelin , i am going to put in some proper new sound deadening .overall , unless i am pushing it hard it pretty much sounds like a GM built unmodified 4 cylinder cavalier .it is muffled down quite a bit with the turbo and the muffler and solstice cat.it makes a real snarling sound under boost .it is an amazing difference when you run it hard .i check my mileage a lot and with mixed driving around here i get between 13 to 15 km per litre of gas or 30 to 33 miles per american gallon(3.78L) .so that should translate to about 500 km with a little left in the tank .my gas guage does not work so i fill up when i hit 250 to 300 KM on the trip odometer .that is usually less than 20 litres of gas per week of driving to work and golf etc .

Eau_Rouge MSG #428, 07-24-2009 11:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

the 2.8 was noisier but the muffler was shot so it is hard to make a comparison .when i did the swap i took a lot of the sound insulation off of the firewall.so i do get some unwanted valvetrain noise coming in to the cabin , but only at low speeds .when i drop the cradle to put in the shifter mods i bought from roger thelin , i am going to put in some proper new sound deadening .overall , unless i am pushing it hard it pretty much sounds like a GM built unmodified 4 cylinder cavalier .it is muffled down quite a bit with the turbo and the muffler and solstice cat.it makes a real snarling sound under boost .it is an amazing difference when you run it hard .i check my mileage a lot and with mixed driving around here i get between 13 to 15 km per litre of gas or 30 to 33 miles per american gallon(3.78L) .so that should translate to about 500 km with a little left in the tank .my gas guage does not work so i fill up when i hit 250 to 300 KM on the trip odometer .that is usually less than 20 litres of gas per week of driving to work and golf etc .


Wow, 500 km per tank - very impressive...can't wait! I'n the mean time, I guess I should look at replacing my firewall insulation as its now 23 years old as are my suspension and drivetrain bushings - this should make it a little quieter and easier to live with.

One more question, what rpm do you turn at 100 km/h. Also, is the ecotec a smoother, more civilized engine than the stock 2.8?

Thanks again and once again, love the project!


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #429, 07-25-2009 09:20 AM
      the ecotec is a very smooth motor as it has balance shafts .roger thelin told me he used to run his without a dog bone and i believe him .mine just barely shakes a little when it idles ,but when i ran it NA with the stock airbox it behaved like an electric motor .i rev about 2100 rpm at 100km/hr .if you plan on running a 2.2 stock with the factory airbox, you wont hear the valvetrain noise as it acts like a muffler for that noise .and i used to get over 40mpg when i ran it stock , but i couldnt resist a turbo setup .thanks for the comments and questions .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #430, 08-15-2009 04:46 PM
      i was at the SOFA show in london the other day and got a few ideas from the people there .too bad it rained , i relly wanted to hit the drag strip .show was really well organized , thanks to SOFA and the volunteers .one idea about relocating my air filter to the fender well where the old water seperator resided sounded good to me .puts the air filter out of the engine bay and protects it from rain as well as getting rid of my ugly rainshield .cant seem to post pics at this time .i keep resizing but pip keeps telling me they are too big .i will try again tomorrow .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #431, 09-07-2009 08:30 PM
      changed my water to air intercooler out to a 750 cfm unit .i thought when i ordered the first one it said ti was good for for 450 hp , that was my misread and it said 450 cfm .new unit flows much better ,feels like the top end of the rev range is stronger now .it is physically a lot bigger , have to run a scan to see if it cools the charge better .i ran a scan with the first air to water unit with and without the water meth system hooked up .without water meth i had KR of 7* .with water meth running i had KR of 0* .the water meth makes a big difference in my setup , even with the cooler intake temps with the water to air intercooler .

DavePatron MSG #432, 09-08-2009 05:25 PM
      so whats the gas mpg gonna be after all this??



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #433, 09-08-2009 11:58 PM
      today i did 200 miles on 2 lane roads with slow spots through small towns with traffic lights and stop signs etc (kincardine to london , ontario ) and got 35 mpg .i am more than happy with my mileage .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #434, 10-11-2009 11:40 PM
      havent worked on the car for a while .i drive it to work and golf and it has run great all summer .never got to the dragstrip ,weather all summer up here has not been great .thought i would write this little update just to stay on the first page of the C zone , where i have been since it started .thanks Cliff !

Eau_Rouge MSG #435, 10-12-2009 12:15 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

havent worked on the car for a while .i drive it to work and golf and it has run great all summer .never got to the dragstrip ,weather all summer up here has not been great .thought i would write this little update just to stay on the first page of the C zone , where i have been since it started .thanks Cliff !


I hear you, I haven't completed all my intended updates/mods but after 4 years of not driving the car, when I got it to a condition that I was happy with over the summer I said to hell with continuing and decided that I would enjoy driving the car until it snowed...was looking forward to taking some nice fall drives but now I've got no clutch pedal pressure at all (clutch started to engage with the pedal right at the bottom then no pressure at all and I hear a popping sound when I press on the clutch pedal) so I guess I won't be enjoying those fall drives after all...what a kick in the pants! Sorry, just a little upset!

Regarding your setup, what inlet temps do you see with our current fall weather temps? Do you notice an increase in power, throttle response?




wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #436, 10-12-2009 12:29 AM
      i havent ran a scan in a while but it feels a little stronger overall but like any car i have owned , it uses more gas in the cold weather .i have to add some antifreeze to the intercooler setup or take it off the road soon .i havent decided yet .good to hear from you ,have a good fall season......

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #437, 11-04-2009 11:23 PM
      Updates?

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #438, 11-28-2009 08:25 AM
      i am still driving the car since there has been no snow or salt yet .just got back from the wreckers where i picked up a complete centre consul and skeleton , shifter and cables and other odds and ends for 50 bucks .dont know how much i will use but i need the shifter and cables to install Roger Thelin's transmission kit that i bought over the summer . i am going to do a cradle drop to make that job easier and when the engine is out of the way i am going to re route all the hoses to hide them from view .it is warmer than normal for november so i might still be driving right in to december this year .unexpected after the cold summer we had .

Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #439, 11-28-2009 06:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

i am still driving the car since there has been no snow or salt yet .just got back from the wreckers where i picked up a complete centre consul and skeleton , shifter and cables and other odds and ends for 50 bucks .dont know how much i will use but i need the shifter and cables to install Roger Thelin's transmission kit that i bought over the summer . i am going to do a cradle drop to make that job easier and when the engine is out of the way i am going to re route all the hoses to hide them from view .it is warmer than normal for november so i might still be driving right in to december this year .unexpected after the cold summer we had .


Agreed,

Im still driving mine however I will be dropping the cradle as well and redoing and upgrading stuff


Fosgatecavy98 (dice033@aol.com) MSG #440, 12-12-2009 03:24 PM
      Bump

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #441, 12-12-2009 11:21 PM
      thanks for the bump , fos .i have finally put the car away for the winter .the driving season this year was the longest ever for my fiero , first time ever driving in december .too bad it was such a cold summer around here .hardly ever got the boat out .great weather for golf ,except for the rain .got the car up on its dollies now .hope to start the roger thelin shift conversion soon and clean up the engine bay .have a great mod season and merry christmas everyone !

Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #442, 01-15-2010 04:21 PM
      Will you do a build thread update over the winter?

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #443, 01-16-2010 11:33 PM
      i have not done much to the fiero so far , the car ran great all summer .i hope to clean up a few things .but i have decided to not do anything major this year .in the spring i am going to get it painted,and that will take up all my spare cash .i had plans to change my centre console and shift linkage and i have all the parts to do this, but i decided i like my cupholders better .i will try to get some pics up of thelins parts but i need to organize my photos first .in other words , the car is running so good that i no longer have that urge to try to constantly improve it .

Neolithic Shadow (arrowheadgt@hotmail.com) MSG #444, 01-17-2010 03:52 AM
      ive gone through your whole thread before and youve done awsome job, but i cant remember, are you running a wideband o2?

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #445, 01-18-2010 12:30 AM
      i dont have a wideband O2 .i would like one , but since i have the HP tuners setup , i mostly tune based on the scans i take with it .there are limited changes you can make to the A/F ratio on the various tables .mostly i have tuned to avoid knock while keeping the timing as high as i can get away with .the water meth takes care of a lot of the knock and the ECM does the rest .i have a lot to learn about tuning but the car runs well as it sits now .

coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #446, 01-21-2010 01:05 PM
      Just read this whole thread, nice job on the Ecotec.....I actually just picked up a 2.0 Turbo ecotec before xmas and have been getting it ready to fab into the fiero subframe, but I am swapping the pistons and head to a supercharged 2.0 engine so I don't have to run the direct fuel injection system. I would suggest getting a wideband O2 system because tuning with HPtuners and the wideband works so much better, if you ever need a hand with tuning my friend tunes many cobalt SS's with lots of mods (he tuned my 2.0 SC meth injected 2.6" pulley ecotec DD). What temp difference are you noticing between your intake before and after the turbo? What temps are you hitting at WOT? Unlike you, I am going to run a air to air intercooler, not a water to air, I hope that I can get enough airflow to the intercooler to cool the charged air enough.

Like you my car isn't going to have much of a trunk with the turbo, and since my chassis was rusty I already completely removed the whole thing, going to make things so much easier.

Keep up the awesome work

Jer


Eau_Rouge MSG #447, 01-21-2010 07:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by coppertop_01:

Just read this whole thread, nice job on the Ecotec.....I actually just picked up a 2.0 Turbo ecotec before xmas and have been getting it ready to fab into the fiero subframe, but I am swapping the pistons and head to a supercharged 2.0 engine so I don't have to run the direct fuel injection system. I would suggest getting a wideband O2 system because tuning with HPtuners and the wideband works so much better, if you ever need a hand with tuning my friend tunes many cobalt SS's with lots of mods (he tuned my 2.0 SC meth injected 2.6" pulley ecotec DD). What temp difference are you noticing between your intake before and after the turbo? What temps are you hitting at WOT? Unlike you, I am going to run a air to air intercooler, not a water to air, I hope that I can get enough airflow to the intercooler to cool the charged air enough.

Like you my car isn't going to have much of a trunk with the turbo, and since my chassis was rusty I already completely removed the whole thing, going to make things so much easier.

Keep up the awesome work

Jer


Where did you get your ecotec engine? I'd like to get an LSJ myself but can't seem to find anything for under $3k. Is that really the going rate - $3k?


coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #448, 01-22-2010 06:49 AM
      I bought my 2.0 turbo LNF for $350 as a parts motor with 17k on it, transmission came in at $500, and so far misc pieces/brackets/fuel rail/coil packs have cost another $500, they aren't cheap especailly the LSJ's and LNF's, but you can get a 2.2L base ecotec for significantly cheaper than the 2.0 variants........the only problems you run into is like wtfb when trying to boost an engine that was never wired for boost.

Check the local cobalt/ion/pontiac boards (ontariocobaltclub.com, OPG, and to a lesser extent our6thplanet.com <-more into the S-series saturns than the ION's) , you can sometimes catch a break with locating an ecotec. Also check out the more national boards like IONforums.net or CobaltSS.net

Jer


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #449, 01-22-2010 07:37 PM
      hopefully , GM will put the 2.0 turbo into more cars and they will be plentiful one day .i have toyed with the idea of buying a cobalt ss , they are dropping in price but are not down to donor car status yet .when i can pick one up for 4000.00 or so i probably will .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #450, 01-22-2010 07:56 PM
      my intake temp at the charge pipe before the throttle body max out at 36* C .thats on a warm day . with air to air i was hitting over 42*C .the only thing i dont like with the water cooler is there seems to be a bit of a dead spot in 4TH gear when you hold the throttle wide open after downshifting from 5TH at hwy speeds .running up through the gears, WOT works fine .this is one of the things i need to look at in the spring .

coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #451, 01-26-2010 03:25 PM
      how much boost are you making?

currently in my DD setup with a 2.6" pulley on the stock M62 blower I am making just under 18 psi boost (I would be making more boost if my intake and exhaust weren't so free flowing), and even with meth/water injection, twin intercoolers, dual pass endplate, and a high flow water pump I still can hit 48-50 degrees on my charge side.

Jer


Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #452, 01-26-2010 03:36 PM
      coppertop_01, I can see the benefits, but why would you want to give up all the benefits of direct injection?

You'll lose all the low end torque, and I have a feeling some of the hp as well..

Can't you just use the ECU from the DI motor? If you use all the wiring from the donor car, I don't see how DI is more complicated than regualr injection. (a bit naiive, I know. - but everything outside the motor is pretty much the same regarding fuel pressure as non DI motors)


coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #453, 01-26-2010 04:35 PM
      getting rid of the DI because of the lack of larger injectors, cost of injectors and all related hardware (ie, cam driven fuel pump delivering 2300psi pressure, fuel rail, fuel lines), and the problem of parts being few and far between forcing me to look at dealerships for parts.

I realize the benefits of DI, but with the relative costs and hard to find parts it was simpler to go with the LSJ head and standard off the shelf injectors/fuel system required with it.

Jer


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #454, 01-28-2010 03:09 PM
      the beauty of the DI setup is you dont need larger injectors to up the boost .the high pressure pump and all the HP lines are bolted right on the engine .lines from the tank are fairly low pressure , nothing unusual .stock boost on the 2.0 turbo is 20 psi .trouble is if you dont get all the donor cars wiring and computer stuff , you are never going to make it work .i would like to get the 2.0 supercharged motor because i can run it with my 2.2 wiring .i would ditch the supercharger and run a turbo setup .now that i have had a turbo on the car and worked the bugs out , i dont think a supercharger would do it for me . on the various forums , you see cobalt and cavalier ecotec guys selling SC setups a lot to switch to turbos .my boost maxes out at about 11.5 , just running the stock spring and no controller .i am happy with that boost level and the power the car puts out .the 2.0 SC block comes with better rods , crank and piston oil squirters .2.2 and 2.0SC heads are identical .2.4 heads have the V V R but the castings are still the same .there is a lot of mixing and matching that can be done with these motors .

coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #455, 01-28-2010 06:49 PM
      yeah thats the beauty of the ecotec motors, is the interchangeability within all the different versions, hell in europe they have a diesel version of the ecotec.

The 2.0 LNF block that I got has even better block and crank than the LSJ's, the oil jets are a wonderful upgrade to the LSJ/LNF blocks over the 2.2L variants. You can still max out the DI injectors though, granted it would be with so much boost that it would only be a race vehicle, but still finding all the bits and pieces to get the LNF with DI head working properly would be much harder than I am looking to make my project. A LSJ head is good enough for me, and still the amount of options I have for custom/high performance parts on the LSJ is better than the LNF head currently.

As for supercharger or turbo's, I have had both, superchargers is better for a daily driver IMO as boost builds right down low, whereas some turbo's setups spool too long making daily driving a pain in the ass........really it depends all on your driving style and what you want in a car.

Jer


Jer


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #456, 01-28-2010 06:51 PM
      The DI pistons have a funky domes to direct the fuel spray at cold start up. Be sure to double check clearances if you don't swap the pistons too.

I'm not sure how many lbs/hour those DI's can move, but there is a factory tune that can get you 30 hp and 80 ft/lbs more and keep the warranty and pass emissions. So I bet they left a smiggin more on the table.



ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #457, 01-28-2010 07:08 PM
      Actually the LSJ and LNF heads started out as the same net shape sand cast (circa 2006), the lesser varities have lost foam cast heads (same as the block). The LSJ has the bosses for variable cam phasing and the DI injectors but are not machined.

I would bet the LNF heads have been tweaked some more since the SS Cobalts and HHR's have gone LNF.



coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #458, 01-28-2010 07:47 PM
      ccfiero, yes I am swapping the pistons and rods out as well as the head. Currently my engine has no rotating components save the crank for mounting into my subframe.

From what I have seen the castings are slightly different between LSJ and LNF (maybe not cam locations, exhaust ports, etc) but there is a big difference with the intake ports, and the LNF has ports for the DI, the intake ports are angled upwards to allow for the injectors to go under it, the LSJ head intake ports are a angled straight out.

If I could figure a way to plug the DI ports, I would look into that and keep the LNF head.

Jer


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #459, 01-29-2010 09:15 AM
      You could just leave the injectors in place as a plug. Or send the head to a good welder and weld up the holes then check the heads for straightness.



coppertop_01 (coppertop_01@hotmail.com) MSG #460, 01-29-2010 09:18 PM
      I was thinking about that as well..........just not too sure if I trust plug welding the head.

Jer


ccfiero350 (chuckcamp@gmail.com) MSG #461, 01-30-2010 11:00 AM
      They rebuild aluminum race heads all the time when something lets go. Try contacting a good race engine builder in your area and see if you can get a referral to a good head re-builder.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #462, 05-16-2010 11:01 PM
      i didnt do anything to the car all winter .got lazy cause the car was running great and i have another project on the go .but now that i am driving the car again , some problems have come along that i had to fix .first i developed a leak between the turbo and the exhaust manifold .this was minor but caused the turbo to spool up slower than normal and was noisy till it warmed up .i did not use a gasket between these surfaces and that worked fine all last summer but some corrosion developed over the winter to cause the leak .so i made a steel adapter plate so i could use gaskets in between .seems to work well so far .the other thing that happened was that the bolt holding my homemade dogbone broke off at the thread line inside the threaded hole . so i welded up a new mount that now sits under the drive pully at the front of the motor .i incorporated an dogbone from my old 85 4 cyl .the rubber is too old and sloppy though , i am going to get a poly dog bone soon .but this mount incrporates a double shear mount so it wont have all the stress on one side of one bolt .after i tried it out , i added an angle brace to it to avoid flexing at the base of the post .i did not get a pic of the brace .pics:

the leak :

the fix:

what my exhaust system looks like out of the car:

i am planning on buying a proper turbo manifold but i want to get through this summer with this setup .i havent decided on the mfr yet so hopefully this fix will last for this season .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #463, 05-22-2010 02:47 PM
      here is Roger Thelin's conversion kit for using the stock fiero shifter .i decided not to use it because i like my consule as is now and i was a little leary of doing the transaxle stuff .but the instructions are well written and it does look like a fairly straight foreward install .all the brackets and adapters are really well made :




matthud MSG #464, 05-27-2010 10:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

here is Roger Thelin's conversion kit for using the stock fiero shifter .i decided not to use it because i like my consule as is now and i was a little leary of doing the transaxle stuff .but the instructions are well written and it does look like a fairly straight foreward install .all the brackets and adapters are really well made :


you have a PM


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #465, 07-01-2010 09:57 PM
      i replaced my plastic BOV with a much better aluminum model by turbo xs .the old bosche was errattic and seemed to leak and was causing surging .cured the flat spot in my 4th gear downshift to pass scenario .looks better too .


matthud MSG #466, 08-03-2010 09:25 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

this is the cavalier air intake adapted to the fiero breather assembly .i cut it and taped it back together and it works really well.the fiero throttle cable fits the ecotec throttle body by simply hooking it on.


Did you just hook the eyelet over the end and not actually secure it any way?


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #467, 08-07-2010 11:05 PM
      that is the way i did it , the eyelet hooks on the throttle body wheel and has never come loose .this is a v6 throttle cable .4 cylinder cables will not work on an ecotec throttle body .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #468, 09-08-2010 08:06 PM
      i went for a drive today .filled up the tank and bought a 2.5 gallon plastic gas can and filled it up and put it in the trunk .the object was to drive the car till it ran out of gas so i know how far i can get away with .i dont have a working gas gauge still , so i time my fill ups with my trip odometer .it seemed like a good plan but here it is 406 Km later and i still havent run out of gas yet .i have to work tomorrow and friday so my little experiment will end for now .dont want to have to jerry can it on the way to work, the comments would be never ending from everyone that sees me on the side of the road .

Eau_Rouge MSG #469, 09-08-2010 10:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

i went for a drive today .filled up the tank and bought a 2.5 gallon plastic gas can and filled it up and put it in the trunk .the object was to drive the car till it ran out of gas so i know how far i can get away with .i dont have a working gas gauge still , so i time my fill ups with my trip odometer .it seemed like a good plan but here it is 406 Km later and i still havent run out of gas yet .i have to work tomorrow and friday so my little experiment will end for now .dont want to have to jerry can it on the way to work, the comments would be never ending from everyone that sees me on the side of the road .


I did a calculation based on the reported fuel consumption for a cobalt ss taking into consideration the size of the fiero's fuel tank. If I recall correclty, you should see something north of 500km from a full tank of gas.
When you run out, please update...cheers.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #470, 09-12-2010 10:16 PM
      havent been able to drive it enough this weekend to run out yet but i am at 450 km and still no signs of running out of gas......

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #471, 09-13-2010 05:41 PM
      ran out of gas at 508.8 km .it took 34.35 litres to fill it up (including my 9 litre gas can) .total km driven was 518 .that is 15.08 km per litre or 35.34 miles to the american gallon (3.78 L) .this was mixed driving , mostly 2 lane highways , going through towns and city streets .only about 80 km on expressways .so i am pretty happy with these figures .the tank is smaller than i thought .not even 10 us gallons .

Eau_Rouge MSG #472, 09-13-2010 09:47 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

ran out of gas at 508.8 km .it took 34.35 litres to fill it up (including my 9 litre gas can) .total km driven was 518 .that is 15.08 km per litre or 35.34 miles to the american gallon (3.78 L) .this was mixed driving , mostly 2 lane highways , going through towns and city streets .only about 80 km on expressways .so i am pretty happy with these figures .the tank is smaller than i thought .not even 10 us gallons .


Wow, nearly 200km more than I usually get with my 2.8 v6 with the 4 speed stick in similar driving conditions.
One day, I'll have an ecotec in my Fiero as well!!!

Thanks for updating wftb, good to hear someone confirming my calculations.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #473, 09-13-2010 10:17 PM
      you were almost bang on . i thought i would fall victim to the stock fiero's tendency to leave 2 gallons in the tank .my 85 would run out of gas with slightly under 1/4 tank showing on the gauge .as it is , i am really satisfied , now i will fill up at 400 km instead of 250 .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #474, 10-29-2010 11:25 PM
      i have put the fiero away for the winter .a little earlier than usual but driving in the rain in the dark going to and from work is not pleasant in the fiero .and i bought a new big fabric shed i can fit the fiero and my boat in .i am going to do a little work on it this year .i have stainless brake lines and clutch line to install and if i have the money i found a willwood 12" brake kit i think i can make fit .part #140-9193 .bigger brakes with less weight , sounds good to me .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #475, 11-08-2010 10:50 PM
      i decided to take the head off to see how things are holding up in there .i took it off and it all looks really good , everything pretty clean and cylinders smooth and valves look good .all the eco forums say you cant boost a 2.2 without blowing it up but i really dont see a problem .i think most of them have not gone to the extreme lengths of charge cooling that i have... anyway , while i have it open i am going to put in some wiseco pistons and some eagle rods and add a electronic boost controller .i am going to use the 10:1 pistons and max out at about 14 psi .i am also going to run individual cylinder water/meth nozzles .i really think water meth is what has kept this engine in such great shape .i will try to get some pics up soon , i now have a mac so i have to figure pip all over again .(well actually my wife will have to do that )

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #476, 11-14-2010 06:13 PM
      i have my new pistons and rods ordered now from allecotec.com .i got the old pistons out and they are mostly in great shape .it looks like some debris got in to # 2 cylinder and caused some scoring on the cylinder walls .my plan was to use the old rings on the new pistons and leave the cylinders as is , but the scoring made me change my mind .so i got a hone and gave it my best shot .they came out OK , not perfect, but i used an old ring to check the bores and they seem close enough .if it doesnt work out and i end up burning too much oil , i will have to go get a low mile 2.2 and swap my new parts in to it .the bearings on the rods all look like new so that was good to see .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #477, 11-26-2010 11:32 PM
      engine parts are supposed to be shipped monday , so i should have everything by wednsday .i have been busy rerouting hoses and i drilled a turbo drain hole in the oil pan so i am finally going to get rid of the oil scavenger pump .i also took off my inline fuel pump that has been disconnected most of the time it has been on the car.it just isnt needed and it did not work the way i planned it to so it is just weight for nothing .i have a bunch of pics to post but i cant seem to get them sized right to get pip to accept them .still looking for an easy to use photo program .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #478, 11-27-2010 09:47 AM
     


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #479, 11-27-2010 10:13 AM
     

the fiero new winter work shop


waiting for new high performance parts


carnut122 MSG #480, 11-27-2010 09:34 PM
      Sorry for double post!

[This message has been edited by carnut122 (edited 11-27-2010).]

carnut122 MSG #481, 11-27-2010 09:37 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:




And, here I was complaining about being cold while working on my 53 F100 in my garage today (45 degrees in North GA). I'm going to have to "man up!"


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #482, 12-11-2010 06:41 PM
      shed is warmer now .its insulated with 2 feet of snow all around it .head is back on :



more pics tomorrow


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #483, 12-12-2010 10:16 AM
      the cylinder head is back on and torqued down .the oem head gasket had some sort of sealer on both sides and cleaning it off was a pain .but after i got it off i could see the need for sealant so i sprayed both sides of the cometic metal gasket with permatex spray a gasket .here is the gasket in place with ARP head studs installed:


Goldenfoot (rt_jb_whittington07@q.com) MSG #484, 12-12-2010 01:19 PM
      I am so envious! Good choice on internals! Do you plan on putting more boost to it? Any change to the valve train? Cams, higher rate springs? I have a '06 Cobalt SS supercharged. I at the moment can only dream to do what you are doing! Im loving your build!

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #485, 12-12-2010 04:34 PM
      i am not changing the valve train at all .i hope to get a greddy profec and then up the boost to about 14 psi .that should be do able with my present equipment .hoping that will give me around 280 HP .thanks for the comments , kind of cold in the shed now but the wife's away and i need to get out there.....

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #486, 12-12-2010 08:34 PM
      having a little trouble getting the timing chain on in the right spot .i used nail polish to mark where the chain was on the sprokets, position of cams and crankshaft so i could just put everything back the way it was .but i want the chain back in exactly the same spot so i can check the positioning by the factory marks .but i am getting slop where i dont need it right now and that may turn out to be imposible without taking the front cover off , something i am avoiding .i have all day tomorrow to figure it out ,dont go back in to work until tuesday .its winter big time here, been storming all week:

my new digital torque wrench:

the head back on


neverendingproject (alanfraz@hotmail.com) MSG #487, 12-12-2010 11:19 PM
      wftb, where did you get your shop? I have one from Harbor Freight and it's just too narrow to work around the sides of the car but this one looks much better.

Thanks,



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #488, 12-12-2010 11:40 PM
      i got it from a place called "give me shelter " in uxbridge ont .they have a website with all the sizes available .mine is 11 X32 .two mods i did were
1 .built a pressure treated platform out of 2X4's and 3/4 " plywood .
2.put a 30 X 40 outer tarp over top of the whole thing and screwed it down to the platform .sunlight kills these buildings so i would rather buy a 100 dollar tarp every 3 years than a 700 dollar cover every 5 years .also this bldg has stitched seams that leak a bit so the tarp cures that.at first i was not that happy with my choice but with the platform and the tarp it has held up to some huge winds .it started howling around here about a month ago and it hasnt stopped yet .i live about 150 yards from lake huron .some nights the lake has been so noisy we have worn earplugs to be able to sleep .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #489, 12-13-2010 12:33 PM
      so much for working on the car today.40 mph winds from due north so i had to rope the door shut and call it a day .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #490, 12-27-2010 10:51 PM
      well i have had a change in plans .while trying to get the pully off to remove the front cover so i could get the cam chain in the right position , i managed to spin the cam drive sprocket on the crankshaft .i did not think that would even be possible but i did it .so that screw up combined with being worried about the scoring in #2 cylinder has convinced me to get another motor to put my new rods and pistons into .so off to a wreckers tomorrow for a low mile 2.2 , about 500.00 .but in the end , should work out better .except i also need another 100$ head gasket .oh well

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #491, 12-30-2010 12:03 AM
      i got a low mile (25000 miles) engine for 375.00 .it was cheaper because it's oil pan got a crack in it from the accident it was in .good for me because i am using my old pan that is already drilled for the turbo oil return .on the ontario auto recyclers website you can brouse through way over 500 ecotec motors .spent today tearing it down and so far i am happy .nice smooth bores without sratches and no sludge anywhere .the cylinder bores still have factory cross hatch lines . there was a lot of carbon buildup on the tops of the pistons , this engine was running rich for some reason .this is from an 06 cobalt and there are some changes from my old engine .it has a drive by wire throttle body ,no cast in EGR passage ,a cast cover where the PS pump would have been , a redesigned cam chain tensioner and some extra mouning hardware that i assume holds on an engine cover .i took apart most of what i need to do to put in my new pistons in about 4 hours today .it is so easy to work on an engine that is on a stand .the plan is to get this engine ready to drop in to the car , and then wait till spring and tow my fiero over to the garage when the snow is gone .pics:


returnless fuel rail that i cant use:

no EGR casting , factory PS drive cover:

drive by wire TB has a low profile but i cant use it:

new style thermostat housing , may have to swap for the old one :

nice clean valve train:

finally a cam chain i can see the marker links on:


nice bores


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #492, 12-30-2010 05:30 PM
      i ordered new clevite connecting rod bearings today .the old bearings were in good condition , at least until i managed to put a scratch in one of them while i was taking out the pistons .a new set from a local auto supply was 65.00 taxes in so i am not to upset about it .i have been reading the gm lsj build book and in the book it says to take the old rings off and use them on the new pistons .this way you do not have to hone the cylinders.so thats what i was going to do .but , the old rings dont fit the new pistons(too thick) so now i may have to give the cylinders a light hone . anyway , here is a side by side picture of stock versus wiseco pistons .you can see that the wiseco top ringland is almost twice as thick as stock :

my new bearings wont be in till monday so i cant put everything together till i am off work on weds morning .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #493, 12-31-2010 02:19 PM
      i ordered an LSJ head gasket today .i didnt want to risk reusing the cometic gasket even though the engine was never fired .i have not heard too many good things about the cometic gasket and the LSJ gasket is what most ecotec guys are using now .it holds boost really well and is 40.00 cheaper than the cometic head gasket .i ordered it from crate engine depot . com .

Goldenfoot (rt_jb_whittington07@q.com) MSG #494, 01-01-2011 01:06 AM
      Thank you for keeping this updated! I love watching your build! Happy new year!

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #495, 01-01-2011 06:43 PM
      thanks everyone for watching and happy new year to everyone here .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #496, 01-02-2011 07:14 PM
      i noticed an item on the ecotec forum recently .it was a group buy of 58X bolt on reluctor wheels .these allow you to run a 2.4L ecotec as well as the 2007 and newer 2.2 ecotec using the older ECM .my new motor is a 2006 because i did not think it would be possible to run anything newer with my wiring .nice to know that down the road i will be able to once again update to a nearly new motor .and since i am putting in a new motor , i have decided to do a cleanup on the engine compartment wiring and plumbing .i recently rerouted the heater core and turbo coolant feeds but i am still not happy with it .the main problem is that the outlets are at the back of the engine(next to the fiero trunk) and stick straight up .so to reach the fiero heater pipes , two rubber hoses have to go all the way around the engine .this is the mess i have now :

i have pulled off the charge tubing , intake tubing , exhaust pipes and muffler and turbo and manifold . i hope to improve on all of these items but at the same time i dont want to be without my fiero for the summer .i havent missed a summer since i did my swap so if i dont get it done on time , the old stuff goes back on .
this is a busy elbow .these taps will go on a new to me 2.4L ecotec intake manifold , as long as i can find one used .good for a 13hp gain over the 2.2 manifold and 3 lbs lighter.

my subaru 16g turbo is still in really good shape so i will continue to use it .bearings spin freely and no slop side to side .i am going to get a real turbo manifold and then use this plate that i made when i first went turbo to weld up a proper downpipe .

i will get a top mount log manifold and put the turbo back to its stock configuration , instead of this:

i have had my share of difficulties running my home brew turbo set up , but one thing i am proud of is that i have never broken down because of my setup .i like to make constant improvements and i hope to have a car that will be better and faster and still be as reliable as it has been up till now .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #497, 01-02-2011 07:16 PM
      i meant to say 7X reluctor wheels . the new motors and 2.4L have the 58X wheels on the cranks.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #498, 01-14-2011 05:13 PM
      my cylinder head is back on my new motor .the lsj head gasket looks good and fit the 2.2 perfect.it has extra sealant on it that the cometic lacks .and since the machining lines can be seen (but not felt) i really think the sealant is needed.so , more pics:




back together ,and hopefully to stay together :



Eau_Rouge MSG #499, 01-16-2011 02:54 PM
      Wftb, I'm very interested in putting in a 2.4L ecotec in my car. I'd love to get an LSJ but it's expensive and more complicated/time consuming to make work in a fiero. Plus, I don't want to spend a year or more doing the swap and 180-190 hp in my fiero would be good enough for me. Also, I have no interest in a 3.8 or 3.4 - I like the 4 cylinder engines.

You say that with 7x wheel, a 2.4L can be made to work in a fiero, what exactly do you need to make the 2.4L ecotec operational in a fiero?
I'd like to do a swap like yours, that is by using the engine, transmission, ECM, BCM and the wiring harnesses necessary to make the engine work - I don't want to have to worry about re-writing codes for the ECM or tuning - would like to do it plug and play if possible.

Given your knowledge of the ecotec in a fiero, is it possible to make a 2.4L ecotec plug and play in a fiero?
Should I avoid any particular year of 2.4L ecotec and why?
If I source an engine from a solstice, will the stock flywheel, clutch setup work with the 2.2L ecotec 5 speed transmission?

...Just trying to get an understanding of what's needed to do this swap. Given your knowledge, if you could put a list together, it would be greatly appreciated.

Great build and please keep updating!


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #500, 01-17-2011 05:52 PM
      if you get the ecm, bcm ,steering collum with key in it ,fuel pump with harness , wiring harness from donor car ,gauge pod and gas pedal assembly ,then it is plug and play .the key is the wiring harness , this makes it easy .you will have to make your own motor mounts and figure out the DBW gas pedal mounting , and buy the shifter kit from roger thelin .you will have to extend some wires to reach the gauge cluster if you go that route.make sure you get hp tuners compatible model so you can disable the anti theft .i would stay away from the solstice motor because you cant use the exhaust manifold and i do not know about other problems that may crop up .LSJ's are dropping in price but you still cant get a good one for less than 900.00 .and that was without a harness or supercharger . i was thinking of going that route because the harness and tuning in my car can run an LSJ .but then i would need to sell my pistons and rods to recover some of the costs so i got the new 2.2 instead .i am now going to get a Hahn racecraft 20g turbo and manifold for the new motor.just waiting on the price....

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #501, 01-17-2011 06:02 PM
      sorry forgot to add that the purpose of the 7X reluctor wheel is so you can run a 2.4 with 2.2 wiring .people are then putting the 2.2 cylinder head on the 2.4 .the reason is it gives them a 400HP capable bottom end .the 2.2 wiring is not compatible with V V T hence the head swap . the easiest ecotec swap in to a fiero is the cav/sunfire 2.2 , no DBW and you can buy a whole car pretty cheap .2007 and newer models have the 58X wheel and wiring that is not compatible with older models .

Eau_Rouge MSG #502, 01-18-2011 11:01 PM
      I've been reading in the hybrid section of ecotecforum.com regarding putting a 2.2 head on a 2.4 block in order to get rid of VVT and not have to use throttle by wire. May elect to go this route instead as it does leave open the possibility of tuning.

Regarding your build, with your upgraded pistons, rods and turbo, are you aiming for more power, increased reliability/durability or all of the above?
Do you expect the crank shaft to be a weak point as it is not forged?


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #503, 01-19-2011 06:47 AM
      i am looking for more power and durability .the crank in a 2.2 is not forged but it is a very strong unit .it will handle over 500 hp ,a level i am not interested in .if you want a forged crank , the cheapest way is to go LSJ .a whole swap package from a wrecker will cost less than one forged crank from gm performance (and the eagle crank has been discontinued) .the 2.4 does not have a forged crank and it has powdered rods .they are heavier duty but only marginally .this is info i recently dug up that i think is accurate .the bottom end strength of 2.2 and 2.4 ecotecs comes from the massive crank girdle .a lightened crank would be nice but too much work for me .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #504, 01-19-2011 08:01 PM
      double post , sorry .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-22-2011).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #505, 01-20-2011 02:20 PM
      i have today off and i am sitting here waiting for more parts , which apparently are slowly going through canada customs .these include my camshaft and drive pully bolts , so i cant put much more back together until they come in.in that order , i am also getting the ecotec build book and the 2.4L manifold .i was looking for a used one but no luck there and they are on for 10% off so why not .i have ordered the hahn racecraft HTZ-1085 turbo manifold and the matching 20G HTU-2910 turbocharger to go with it .bill hahn jr. put together a package with all the bolts and gaskets and gave me a great deal .this turbo is not the one listed for the cobalt ss ,it is a little cheaper as i dont need the cobalt specific parts .i am really glad i emailed hahn and asked them to put together a package .i saved 300.00 over what i would have paid if i had just ordered parts off the website , and the turbo should be better suited for the fiero .my old turbo is a 16G and i wanted to stick with that style of turbo as it spools really quick and produces boost at a low 1800 RPM .the 20G is capable of moving a lot more air and pressure can go way over what i need .i have to work nights all weekend , hopefully everything will be here by next week .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #506, 01-20-2011 06:02 PM
      i made a mock up on my work bench using my old cyl head bolted to the bench .allows me to see how exhaust and turbo related stuff will fit without running outside all the time .here are some asorted pics.solstice manifold :

why i used to want to use it:


a better shot of my old turbo set up

i seem to be getting a useless collection of ecotec manifolds


Eau_Rouge MSG #507, 02-02-2011 12:32 PM
      Wftb, I'm looking into purchasing an ecotec engine/trans - possibly the 2.0 supercharged if the price is right. Not too sure where to look. Do you have any sources that I can look into?

Thanks


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #508, 02-02-2011 06:10 PM
      check out the Ontario Automobile Recyclers Association website .once you are there , click on the "search for green parts " button .then you can do a make and model search for a 2006 cobalt ss or saturn ion redline and it will let you pick either the 2.4 or 2.0 supercharged motor .i found a 2.0 for less than 1000.00 but it did not have the supercharger .i found a wrecker near stratford ont that was selling what they called a swap kit to convert a stock cobalt to a supercharged SS version .it included the harness , ecm ,bcm , motor ,f35 trans ,axles , guage cluster and everything that was needed .price was 3300.00 .a little rich for me but only because it had a lot of stuff i did not need .happy hunting.....

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #509, 02-11-2011 01:39 PM
      i am getting a lot of work done on the new engine .valve cover and oil pan are back on, installed the 2.4L intake manifold and put the fuel rail back on .the adapter kit for the intake swap was not quite plug and play .it includes an adapter plate and gasket to go from the DBW throttle body to conventional TB .the extra bolt as supplied is way too long and i replaced that with a shorter allen socket head bolt .some material has to be removed from the TB with a dremel where this bolt head contacts the TB or you cannot get the TB bolts to line up .also , one of the bolts has to be torqued into the adapter plate and since it is only 1/8 " thick you need to add a nut on the bolt under the plate .you will strip the thread on the plate without the nut .my new turbo and manifold were shipped on the 4th but i am still waiting for it .we have had some more storms and road closures so it is sitting somewhere now .i have brought all my piping and fittings and intercooler in from the shed .i hope to mock up my new charge piping on the engine stand .i am going to try and mount the intercooler on the drivers side of the engine over the transaxle .this will eliminate about 6 feet of charge piping i hope .cant do it without the new turbo and manifold though .this is the only day i can work on it and i am waiting for parts again .have to work all weekend and monday .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #510, 02-11-2011 02:29 PM
      welded a bung on my flex pipe to get O2 sensor out of the high exhaust pressure area :

TB adapter plate:

extra nut and area that needed relieving:

intake and fuel rail instaled:


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #511, 02-16-2011 03:04 PM
      got my new 20G turbo and hahn manifold:


mocking up new charge piping:




wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #512, 02-16-2011 06:36 PM
      better old vs new photo .when i first took it out of the box , i thought they were the same :



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #513, 02-18-2011 06:11 PM
      i checked the fit of the charge piping on the car .i have bolted the old cylinder head on to the motor in the car and now that it is warmer(40*f) ,this makes it easy to do test fits .i had to shorten the bracket i made to hold up the intercooler as it was too close to the decklid support arm .put all the clamps on and took some pics of what you will see when you look in the engine bay :

should be able to get the exhaust mocked up tomorrow and sunday .but , i hear there is another storm coming so maybe not....


FieroFiend MSG #514, 02-18-2011 07:54 PM
      Youll love the 20g, hahns products are superb and they are great to work with.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #515, 02-23-2011 12:08 AM
      mounted the waste gate on my new turbo.i had to clock it and drill and tap a new hole to mount it to the turbo and bend and extend the actuator arm:


starting the new exhaust system .used a tailpipe expander to hold my downpipe flange in place for welding:

new brass fittings on intercooler :

have all day thursday to work on the car but working nights all weekend .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #516, 02-24-2011 09:49 PM
      got most of my new 2.5" exhaust finished today .i have to leave the welding of the 90* exit pipes till after i have the new motor in and i figure out what kind of hangers i want to use .after i got it fitted and welded i put it all together in the basement :


the muffler is a flowmaster for a camaro .this time i managed to tuck everything up above the bottom of the bumper .should look nice with nothing exposed except the tips .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #517, 03-03-2011 10:44 PM
      got the old motor out and now i am working on cleaning up my fuel lines and coolant lines .i am hard piping as much of the fuel lines as possible .i am doing away with all of the rubber hoses with a combo of original equipment flex lines and stuff from the junkyard and some new bits from cdn tire and ideal supply .on the coolant side ,i am going to take the cavalier overflow tank and mount it up front and get rid of the fiero overflow .i have been running with both ever since i got the ecotec running and this will improve aesthetics a lot .then i am going to sort out the wiring and get everything cleaned up and mounted better .i am going to rip all the old insulation off and put in new foil backed insulation .no pics tonight , going on holidays sunday , cant wait to get away from the snow....

Isolde MSG #518, 03-06-2011 10:21 PM
      I had the 2.5" version of that muffler on my '91 Camaro RS 5.0L, it sounded okay there. But I've no idea what it'll be like on a turbo 4. I'm surprised that I'm now curious. Will you be posting a sound clip? Or a link to one?

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #519, 03-09-2011 03:42 AM
      i hope to do a video in the spring if my wife can figure it out.i am hopeless when it comes to things like that .the car sounds awesome under boost but just driving around it sounds like any econobox .its a jekyl and hyde thing .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #520, 03-18-2011 04:20 PM
      one of the improvements i have been working on is hard piping my fuel lines with adapter pipes that are compatible with the ecotec factory quick connect flex lines that connect to the tank and the engine fuel lines .this gets rid of the high pressure rubber hoses and multitude of clamps i have been using .here is how the return line is now hooked up :

the rest of the lines are complete and on the car .when i drop the motor in , i just have to put two quick connect flex lines on and the fuel circuit will be done .i have gone back to using the aeromotive FP regulator as i realized that i took it off when something else (my injector harness) was actually causing a problem .this regulator responds to boost and vaccuum and has a 1:1 boost to fuel pressure increase feature .i hard piped the vortec 6:1 FMU in as well and made a mount to attatch it to the intake manifold .now i am moving the cavalier overflow bottle to the front of the car and eliminating the fiero catch tank .i have been running with both and this will simplify things and free up more space in the engine compartment .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #521, 03-30-2011 11:46 PM
      new engine going in :



turbo on

i did not do a cradle drop this time , i thought it would go in from the top without much problems . as it turned out i had to take off the alternator and intake manifold to get it in from the top .fired it up today and it ran like crap .then i looked at the throttle body and i had forgot to take the rag i had stuffed in there out .amazed it started at all but happy that it runs .


Stubby79 MSG #522, 03-31-2011 12:02 AM
      Good job!
Great to see it's progressed to this stage. Congrats on the start up! Running rough is still running.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #523, 03-31-2011 08:00 AM
      got a request for a pic of my slave setup for adapting to the cavalier clutch hydraulics .i could not get that great of a picture :

to do this you need the entire f23 hydraulic circuit , including the master cylinder.being from a front drive car , this assembly is very compact and fits nicely in the fiero engine bay .cut the banjo end off of the cavalier master cylinder plunge rod .leave the rod as long as possible .throw away the fiero push rod .bolt the fiero slave to the cavalier master as shown.i put mine as close together as possible to make it easier to bleed the fiero slave .the distance needed to disengage the f23 clutch is the same as the fiero clutch so you dont have to worry about moving the cavalier master too far .the cavalier hydraulics are self bleeding ,so i have been told .this setup has been trouble free .my old clutch line has rotted out finally , so i have to install my new fiero store stainless steel line .


Neolithic Shadow (arrowheadgt@hotmail.com) MSG #524, 03-31-2011 10:26 PM
      Hey thanks a lot, this has made it much clearer, i was just confused about using the f23 master cyl before.

FieroFiend MSG #525, 04-01-2011 12:59 PM
      Interesting way to handle the slave issue but its much less complicated to mate the stock fiero clutch line to the f23 slave with a simple snip and hydrualic fitting flared on all easy to do. This is how I did mine.

Austrian Import (maximilian_ledworowski@csumb.edu) MSG #526, 04-01-2011 01:26 PM
      I hope doing an F35 tranny would be equally straightforward.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #527, 04-01-2011 02:52 PM
      when i first got my car going i had a leak in the original clutch line and fixing it by flaring lines and adapting fittings was a struggle .so i did the hydraulics the way it is shown to avoid disturbing the old line .it has worked well , so even though i have now got a new stainless line i am using it as is .i also thought all the cavalier lines were made out of a plastic material and didnt think a splice was possible .
i ran into a snag .the thermostat housing on my new motor is bigger and sits lower than the old one .so when i bolted the new motor to the old tranny , this happened :

so i had to take the one off the old engine and put it on the new engine .not too big a deal , except it was ackward getting at the bolts with the turbo in the way .funny that with that big of hole , it wasnt a big leak .the shift cable mount was stuffed tight in the hole .ran it some today , starting to sound a lot better .still some sensors to hook up and it is running without the charge piping .it is burning off the pile of storage spray i put in the cylinders and intake passages as i built the motor .after it stops smoking , i have some nearly new spark plugs to throw in .


FieroFiend MSG #528, 04-01-2011 03:20 PM
      Not all of the Jbody lines were plastic there were some that were rubber and metal instead, Im not certain what years were which.

Neolithic Shadow (arrowheadgt@hotmail.com) MSG #529, 04-01-2011 05:32 PM
      FieroFiend..you have a pm

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #530, 04-04-2011 08:30 PM
      got my new exhaust welded together and hung on the car :


it was too dark to get a shot from the back of the car but i finally managed to get everything tucked up behind the bumper .nothing shows but the outlets .started it up and i really like the new sound , a lot deeper tone .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #531, 04-06-2011 11:36 PM
      one thing that has been bugging me since i got the engine to run is that i could not get the car to idle on its own .i tried everything i could think of but got no where finally i thought about what i had changed and removed the IAC valve .when i did this once before and started the car , the revs hit the roof and i shut it down a second after i started it .this time , the car did not even start .turns out the 2.4 L intake kit is only meant for engines with DBW throttle bodies .so i drilled an extra hole to give the IAC valve a way to feed some air in so the car can idle without me sitting with my foot on the throttle .the gasket and adapter plate for the kit completely block the IAC airpath .here is the fix :

some pics of my new charge piping .not the way i had planned it .i had to modify things because of having to use the old thermostat housing .the outlets were in the way .


[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-10-2017).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #532, 04-11-2011 06:22 PM
      i have the car back on the road but i have some problems . the controller for my water meth injection died and the power feed for my intercooler fan and pump has gone dead on me .i have a new controller on order and also ordered a simple boost pressure switch to use as a backup .fixing the power feed wont be a problem but i am working nights and i dont have time to tear in to it .the car was running well ,no oil burning and nice and quiet from the valve train .never went above 4 psi boost or 3000 rpm's so i dont know how much better it is power wise .my new parts should be here by thursday so i will fix everything then .cant drive it without the intercooler , so it sits till then .
hidden exhaust , just tips showing:

got the vents on and hid some of the heater / turbo plumbing

i really need a paint job done


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #533, 04-14-2011 04:55 AM
      got my power feed for the intercooler fan and pump fixed so i am on the road again .still waiting on my new water meth controller .i clicked on the UPS expidited delivery on summit racing's online store and that sent my order to customer service never never land for some reason and 3 days after ordering i am still waiting for them to ship . i should have just picked standard shipping , would probably be here by now .cant really see what it will do performance wise until i get the water meth working again .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #534, 04-21-2011 11:27 PM
      running the car again and it feels really strong .i got rid of my AEM guage boost controller because i never got it to work anyway and it quit along with a lot of other stuff when i started having problems with old crimp together connections .i have spent the last week getting rid of crimps and making solder joints and now everything is working again .new water meth controller is installed and i took it up to 5500 rpm with no problems .the boost gauge says i am maxing out at 6 psi so i may need a stiffer waste gate spring .

doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #535, 04-21-2011 11:49 PM
      Looks like its coming along nicely

Good to see somebody go the ecotec route and boost it too. Very innovative


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #536, 04-22-2011 01:57 PM
      thanks for the reply .i have now got about 600 km on it .i have yet to really let it rip , going to wait till i go over 1000 km .i really hate opening engines up .i am a little paranoid about making a mistake .the one thing that concerns me is always the conn rod bolts .the rods came with arp bolts and i followed the instructions to the letter .came with thread lube that arp insists must be used and specified a torque of 43 ft lbs .i checked the torque three times and all was good .but i kept wondering about 43 ft lbs .i went on the ecotec forum and was happy to find that the danger on these rods is usually from over torquing .so i left it as is and everything seems to be good .this motor behaves differently than my old motor , the 20 g does not pull as well in top gear at low revs as the 16g did .but everywhere else it is stronger , even at only 6psi .it must move a lot more air .

FieroFiend MSG #537, 04-24-2011 06:21 PM
      The 20g is awesome, it only took 12 psi from it to get our ecotec to 340whp with stock cams and compression would love to see what you make when you crank it up.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #538, 04-25-2011 10:43 PM
      i ran a couple of HP tuners scans and it looks like i need to move to bigger injectors , probably around 42 lbs .getting a little more knock reduction than i would like .nothing terrible ,worst is about 7.6 degrees during top gear low rpm open throttle situations .i had 0 KR with the old turbo , so i am getting bigger injectors before i turn up the boost .

FieroFiend MSG #539, 04-26-2011 08:56 PM
      Its to bad that the hahn port fueler probably would not fit at all its such a nice set up very easy to tune with it and hp tuners combined.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #540, 04-26-2011 11:43 PM
      actually it will fit , i just have spent too much money on the fiero this winter .Hahn also sells a package with 60 lb injectors , harness and an ECM reflash for 399.00 .i dont know if i can still use my HP tuners after that and i would be without my car for about two weeks .but i have wanted a port fueler for a long time .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #541, 04-28-2011 04:00 PM
      my fuel pressure tester was leaking slightly when i quickly checked the pressure before i first tried out the new motor .i tried to get a new seal for the connector but no luck so i bought a new one .hooked up the FP tester and found out i was 9 psi light at idle .fixed that and went for a run and had almost no KR showed up on the scan , and i deliberately drove to induce knock .so i might not need the new injectors .it is still cold up here most of the time , worst april in at least ten years , so i will have to see how it runs in the heat but so far so good .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #542, 05-01-2011 10:10 PM
      i have been trying to clean up the look of my charge pipe and got a few things installed to hopefully make it flow better and improve the looks ....



i found some used 40 lb injectors so i am going to put them in when i get them .i have now run the car up to 7000 rpm with no ill effects and the scans look good so i am ready to turn up the boost to around 10 psi and see how that works out .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #543, 05-06-2011 06:46 PM
      put on a manual boost controller today and i am slowly increasing the boost level .i am up to 9 psi and starting to see an increase in performance .still running the old injectors , scans still look ok but i may have to go to a larger water meth injector nozzle .i keep turning up the boost and scanning to be safe .

when i put on the 20G i had to cut this hole to get it on .it only actually sticks in about an inch .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #544, 05-24-2011 03:42 PM
      still waiting on the new injectors , but with a bigger water meth injector nozzle i have been running 10 PSI boost with no recorded KR on the scans .i think i can safely go up to 12 PSI even without the bigger injectors ,i have put on around 2000KM on the new motor and the only problem so far is a small annoying exhaust leak .it goes away when the car warms up after about 15 KM .i havent had time to track it down but i think it is on one of the bolt up joints on the cat convertor .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #545, 06-09-2011 11:01 PM
      so i still am waiting for my 40lb injectors .turned the boost up to 12 psi and thats 2 psi too much for the tune i am running and the present injectors.in the upper revs it seemed to lose power and ran a little rough so i backed it down to 9 psi and it is smooth again .i did not bother scanning at 12 psi , i could tell it was not right .fixed the hole and insulated my trunk so now i can take grocerys home without having the food cook on the way home.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 06-09-2011).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #546, 08-01-2011 06:47 PM
      did a mild rewrite of my tune .by lowering the PE table AFR to 11 accross the board i can now run 10 to 12 psi even without the new injectors .i have the new injectors but it has been to hot too work on the car much .i also raised the PE enable to 2500 rpm up from 0 so that it does not kick in when i am just cruising around .i have had no problems with the new motor so i am quite happy.i have been running it fairly hard to make sure all is good and no problems .this winter i am going to work on the body , got some new parts to put on and then send it for paint .random pics:






wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #547, 09-05-2011 11:54 AM
      took the car out for a 0-60 run and scans today .i only did one run and the time was 5.74 .i have done better than that but i decided to not push my luck .when i really let it rip the car is very loud and attracts a lot of attention .scans showed that i was pretty lazy shifting and that cost me about .3 seconds .launch was good but not great .need some practice .no KR on the scans and charge temp only hit 25 C with an outside temp of 16 C .i am still just running 10 psi boost and i have not put in the new injectors yet .i can safely go to 12 psi with what the scans are telling me but i am at the point where the car is more than fast enough for the street .if i put the new injectors in i have to change the tune to suit them so i think i will wait till spring to do that . i could also bump the timing up a bit .at high boost , wide open throttle situations , it drops all the way down to 14.5 degrees and with no KR showing there is room for improvement .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #548, 09-05-2011 12:41 PM
      my next project for the car is to install the shocks i have always wanted on the front of the car .these are off my stalled lotus 7 project :


these are HAL shocks from QA-1 and are much better than the small body carrera shocks i am currently using. they use the better 2.5" OD springs in lengths up to 10" .the spring shown is a 7" 350 LB and will not be used .the other spring is a 10" 250 LB that i could use but i think it is a little light .i am going to have to mod my held tubular arms to make these work , maybe even lengthen them .my car corners really well already but i want it to be the best cornering car on the road.i am going to modify the rear suspension to add upper control arms and eliminate the struts .this will get rid of the bumpsteer and correct the lack of camber change through travel that plagues most strut suspensions .i may add a rear roll bar but i am not covinced it is needed .the other things i am going to add will be electric power steering assist.the car will feel much better with lighter steering .getting willwood front 12" brakes that are for the subaru wrx .these will not fit a cut down stock hub but will fit my street dreams hubs .wilwood part #140-9193 .these are 5X100 stud pattern .should fit under my 16" wheels .i will have to make my own adapter plates but that is not a big deal .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 10-30-2011).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #549, 10-01-2011 01:37 AM
      going on a little road trip this week .heading to cincinatti to see the Bills play the Bengals and then heading down to the tail of the dragon and whatever other twisty roads we feel like trying down there .i was thinking of taking my Gtech but i dont know if it is legal down in Tennessee and NC .up here you can not use anything that hangs off the windshield .anyone know? would be nice to see what cornering force i am generating but i dont want a ticket .

Ang84Indy MSG #550, 10-02-2011 08:02 PM
      I would love to see your ecotec swap! I live close to Cincinnati, and could meet you.
Angelo


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #551, 10-03-2011 09:15 PM
      you could have seen it sitting in Dayton sun and monday .fuel pump quit and we had to leave it when we went to the bengals game where we bills fans out numbered the bengals fans almost and then we lost....refs suck! anyway turns out i just had a bad ground connection but i spent 140.00 for a jack , stands and voltmeter and some wire to fix it...but now we are in knoxville TN and tomorrow we do the dragon.i am averaging 40 mpg on I75 at 75 mph .wish i had got your reply , if we had not broke down i would have swung by but i was panicked , thinking i was going home today to get our truck and trailer to drag it home .what a nice stadium you have in Cinci .we had an awesome time ..even with the bills losing .tommorow some pics from the dragon if we have internet .

Ang84Indy MSG #552, 10-04-2011 01:11 PM
      Are you taking the same route home? We could meet for lunch.

Gokart Mozart MSG #553, 10-04-2011 09:09 PM
      [QUOTE]Originally posted by wftb:

going on a little road trip this week .heading to cincinatti to see the Bills play the Bengals and then heading down to the tail of the dragon and whatever other twisty roads we feel like trying down there .i was thinking of taking my Gtech but i dont know if it is legal down in Tennessee and NC .up here you can not use anything that hangs off the windshield .anyone know? would be nice to see what cornering force i am generating but i dont want a ticket .


As you drive look at the amount of GPSs on windshields. You won't have to worry.


doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #554, 10-04-2011 10:07 PM
      Good to see you're still working on this, its come a long way and looks like its headed for more custom work. Keep it up!

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #555, 10-05-2011 07:24 PM
      thanks for the comments .cant meet for lunch , sorry but the breakdown left us running late and we are hightailing it home .while we were down here we did the dragon , moonshiner 28 and then the cherahola skyway .the car ran great , on the dragon i was really glued but i kept getting held up by the bikes .the only problem i had was on the hard right hand switchbacks i rolled so hard on to the left front tire that it rubbed the inner fender .no damage done but i think i will up the front spring rate by about 25 lbs. i did not hook up the gtech so i dont know the corner force but i was neutral , not even howling the tires and never left my lane .a few cars moved over for me , that was nice , but 1/2 mile was closed for road repair and that stopped the fun for a while .a guy on a can am 3 wheeler was in front of me and he held me up .it seems the bikes have taken over the roads down here , not much car parking at the tourist traps .we really liked the skyway , a beutiful road with lots of lookout spots and interesting history .my camera crapped out so i will post some of my wifes pics when we get home .she got some good pictures .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #556, 10-10-2011 02:38 PM
      dragon pics:



and the support car driven by my wife:


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #557, 10-15-2011 10:00 PM
      its been raining a lot so i decided to put the car in the garage to start working on it for the winter .a little crowded in there but soon my boat goes in to storage and the griz and miata can go in the plastic shed .


i have my willwood 12" subaru wrx brake kit (wilwood# 140-9193) on order from summit racing .those and trying to make my QA-1 shocks fit the front suspension will be the first things i work on .


BigBrother (getjamin@gmail.com) MSG #558, 10-25-2011 08:09 PM
      Your thread is pure gold, thank you! I am SOOO looking forward to finding a motorless '88 to be home to the LSJ/F35 (with LSD!) sitting in my wrecked baby ('05 Ion Redline). Loved the engine/tranny in the Ion, can't WAIT to feel it with mid engine, RWD, real suspension (no more McStruts FTW), and 300-400 lbs less weight! I'll be making around 260 whp with the planned mods. You sir, are an inspiration!

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #559, 10-25-2011 09:10 PM
      thanks for the reply .too bad about the wreck though , good luck in your fiero search and welcome to the forum !

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #560, 10-30-2011 09:21 PM
      as some of you know , i have given up on the rear upper control arm project .i am still thinking of ways to do it but for now i am getting an HT bumpsteer kit . good news on another front , my HAL shocks are going to fit in the front with little mods required .a little grinding and mount them upside down and they will be good to go .i will post som pics tomorrow .still waiting for my willwood brake kit ...

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #561, 10-31-2011 07:44 AM
      front end changes :


you can see that with the shock upside down , there is very little interference .a little grinding of the old spring pocket and spring perch and then some touch up welding.i need to get some new springs for these shocks .my old springs were 10" long but narrower and after cleaning one off found out they were 300 lb rate .being 1 7/8 ID they have a tendency to sag about a half inch over the summer so i want a slightly higher spring rate .the new shocks have a slightly shorter travel than the old shocks , so i may go with a 9" spring .i will have to find my old QA-1 catalogue to find which spring i am going to need .that info used to be on their web site , but the new website has everything but the charts i need .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #562, 10-31-2011 09:53 PM
      i called QA-1 today and they said the spring i need is a 9" 350 lb that should work out slightly stiffer than my 300 X10" springs .dont know where all the charts went off of their web site but they said there is a lot of work yet to be done on the new site .i called summit racing to add two springs to my brake order that has not been shipped yet.so i am now prepping my front suspension for the larger diameter springs and shocks and everything will fit really well .the new shocks are QA-1 DR 4855P and have about 8 steps on the adjuster knob .the neat thing about them is you can mount them upside down , crank the tire out with the steering wheel and change the setting with no tools and carry on .i was playing around with them today and on the stiffest setting i could barely depress the shaft but on the soft setting i could lean on it a hair and it collapsed .just amazing .and i just have the cheap version .the better version has two knobs , one for compression and one for rebound .

doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #563, 10-31-2011 10:47 PM
      Man, you don't waste any time when you say you're going to do something! You get it done!

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #564, 11-01-2011 10:48 PM
      when i work on something i dont quit until it is done or i need to go to sleep so i can work the next day .and it really helps that all of my kids are either married or away at school and doing really well and i dont have to worry about them anymore .i have enjoyed being a father but it is really funny at 57 i now have the same freedom i had before i got married .only now i have more money luckily .so plan your lives well my young apprentices , there is fulfillment coming .except i really did not plan that well , i hate to say but i think i have been more lucky than good . my dad always said if i stepped in a bucket of sh@t i always pulled a boot out that smelled like roses .you dont have to be really good , just good enough .anyway , i got one side done today and it really went a lot better than expected .pics:



plan B if i cant get the subaru stuff to work

all back together for now .got to put the wheels back on so i can spin it around and do the other side .i like the way the red springs look but are 2" to short .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #565, 11-01-2011 10:53 PM
      forgot to post the comparison shot between the two shocks :



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #566, 11-06-2011 05:58 PM
      got the other side done yesrerday .went a little quicker .while i have things apart i am setting the caster to around 4 and hopefully the same on both sides .my last allignment only had one thing in the red and that was pass. side caster .when i put this suspension on originally i did not have a welder , so i cut out what i had to and just folded the joint over .since the control arm mount tube is welded top and bottom i figured it would not move .and it hasnt , but now it is welded properly and looks a lot better .before :

after :

still waiting on more parts .i am going to start the rear clip replacement while i wait .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #567, 11-17-2011 09:28 AM
      i cancelled the willwood kit today .it got back ordered for the third time so since i had already prepaid for it i cancelled the order to get my money back .summit is going to put the money back in my credit card acct so no problems there .i am going to call willwood direct to see if i can get it from them .there is also some other online sites i can try .plan b is starting to look better though , since i already have those callipers .the lighter weight discs are the main appeal of this kit .

BigBrother (getjamin@gmail.com) MSG #568, 11-17-2011 05:48 PM
      StopTech and some others also make pretty lightweight 2-piece setups...

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #569, 11-20-2011 12:02 AM
      looked up the wrx stop tech stuff .over 3000.00 .and it does not look as good as wilwood stuff .i am going to use the willwood gm metric racing calipers until i can get the willwood subaru kit .for 930.00 it is a real bargain .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #570, 12-02-2011 02:45 PM
      got my new 9" 350 lb springs installed .so other than setting the ride height , this mod is now finished .i am going to put new rod ends on this year as well , but i will do that just before i take it in for allignment .


starting the HT bumpsteer kit install . axle nut came off easily with my electric impact wrench :

the axle has to be removed to install the kit .have to work nights all weekend but i should get a lot done between now and monday .i will try to get a lot of pics of this mod to the rear suspension .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #571, 12-08-2011 11:08 PM
      got the bumpsteer kit done on the drivers side and all assembled ready to go on the passenger side .but i have had a degraded CV boot on the axle on that side for a while now so i ordered a new axle assembly and it should be here monday .overall i am happy with the HT motorsports bumpsteer kit .there are some minor things i dont like :
1 .the assembly could be made lighter .16lbs per side vs about 8 lbs for my old RCC stuff .dont know how it weighs compared to a stock set up , i threw all those parts out .
2 .the rod ends could be better .i have been looking at some QA-1 rod ends that are sealed and self lubricating .when these wear out , that is what i will install .
3 .the bolt supplied to attach the toe link to the arm is about 1/4" too short , the nylock barely engages .
on the plus side , the welds and powder coating are awesome , bends are perfect and a very strong looking assembly .as you will see in the pics i am rough setting the allignment and it is easy to set everything .overall well worth the price and i will be really surprised if it is not a big improvement .
on the assembly side you should get a 1/2" fine thread tap to clear out the powder coating from the spindle adapter .i almost ruined one side when i got it cross threaded .cleaning the threads out with the tap worked wonders .and for some reason my mac would not print the pictures with the assembly instructions .so i managed to get the arms reversed on my first attempt .a lot of running to the computer to figure out my screw up .some pics :







i substituted some 90 degree grease fittings for the straight ones supplied .you cant get a grease gun on the straight fitting once the arms are installed .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #572, 12-20-2011 04:10 PM
      i now have both sides of the rear of the car ready for a quicky allignment and then off to the allignment shop in the spring . i thought i was done working on the front end but i kept looking and measuring and jacking it up and down and i finally decided i needed more upward travel on the shock .i had less than 1 3/4" of travel to the stop .that meant hitting a bump big enough to drive the tire up 3.25 inches or so would bottom out the shock .so i raised the upper perch by cutting it and then welding it back together .now i have 2 1/4" of travel to the bumpstop .total travel on this shock is 4" and yes i have lost some rebound travel but it will not affect anything as the sway bar prevents full extension under rebound .on this setup 2" of wheel travel = about 1 1/8" of shock travel .also i braced up my hockey stick E brake brackets so hopefully i can get that working again .
bracket that mounts to strut to hold Ebrake caliper cable :

cut and tack welded one side , checking fit

clamped and bolted to old shock for welding

a bracket was added to each side to make up for lost strength and then some paint and back together

you can see a slight up slope to the ball joint on the upper arm .i can still go lower on the ride height now , before i was limited in how low i could go .

it is hard to get good pic of the suspension with the wheels on and sitting on the dollies .




wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #573, 01-06-2012 11:50 AM
      took off the old damaged rear clip and the rear deck lid .then i took the wing off and took the deck lid and clip to the body shop to see how much for paint .1138.00 including tax .i was hoping for around 600 , so now i dont know what i will do .i just ordered new saddle bags for my bike .a do it myself paint job might be in the cards for me .paying to have the whole car painted would end up at around 5000+ .the car just is not worth putting that kind of money into .

most of the things i wanted to do are done now .so i have a month or two to make up my mind on what to do .i think i will take the parts down to the basement and see if i can prep them myself .but i really dont like body work .


doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #574, 01-06-2012 04:02 PM
      I think you should get another quote on the decklid/rear clip. Seems kind of high...

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #575, 01-06-2012 06:44 PM
      there are not that many body shops around here now , that is one reason .i took the clip in the basement today .i am going to try to at least prep it myself .should get the quote down a little .

doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #576, 01-07-2012 12:32 PM
      That should help with lowering the quote. I wish I knew more people in the bodywork business. Always helps to have a friend or two that can give you a majorly discounted price. I have a custom hood that I was working on, but its been on hold for a long time now because I can't justify the cost of having it finished. I would rather do engine upgrades etc. Hopefully you can get the price down and get that piece of the project buttoned up.

Great work with the suspension too. A lot of nice custom work you've done there!


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #577, 01-14-2012 02:00 AM
      thanks for the comments .i would much rather spend money on performance upgrades than paint jobs .so i found some rustoleum spray bombs at canadian tire and i think i can do a decent job with them .i have two colours ,arctic grey and cardinal red that i got on sale .the red is discontinued so i only found 6 cans .might be enough to do the top half of the car and i can get more from home hardware at a higher price .i sprayed the new to me rear clip with the grey as it will make a good base for the red and it doesnt look bad either .i need to wet sand before i put on the final colour coat and i think it will look good enough for me .



this should save me more than enough money to buy a new headlight mod i have my eye on ...


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #578, 01-27-2012 11:13 PM
      willwood brake upgrades :




wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #579, 01-27-2012 11:19 PM
      installed one side

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-29-2012).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #580, 02-01-2012 09:32 AM
      got both sides done now .the bore of the piston is .380 larger on these over the cast iron calipers i was using , so i may have to do the S10 booster upgade or a different master cylinder .but i will drive it first and decide .the main advantge of these calipers is over 2 lbs reduction in unsprung weight per side.i dont expect better braking , the old brakes worked really well as they were .i may get a set of these for the back and then put on spot calipers for a parking brake .the rear calipers with the built in parking brake i have now are not working out .every time i use the pb , i have to manually back them off .still a problem even with the better cable mounts i made .i will post a picture later , cant get pip to work right now .these calipers are sumitt racing part # 120-7197 .not for year round use , they do not have dust boots .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 02-01-2012).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #581, 02-01-2012 09:57 AM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #582, 02-01-2012 10:07 AM
      painted the new calipers red .i have also ordered wilwood alluminum calipers for the rear ( wil 140-12097-R from summit ) and these are on the way .these come powdercoated red .they have white letters according to the summit pictures but i am going to wait for them to get here before i highlight the letters white on the calipers i just painted .you never know , they may actually have black lettering .the new calipers might end up on the front , i have not decided this yet .i was trying to get some spot calipers for parking brakes but they were back ordered so i canceled those and hopefully i can pick some up locally .picture to follow .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 02-13-2012).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #583, 02-13-2012 05:29 PM
     

BigBrother (getjamin@gmail.com) MSG #584, 02-15-2012 10:42 AM
      Couple quick ?'s..?

Not to nit-pick an awesome build, but doesn't adding the spot calipers sort of negate going to the aluminum calipers for the express purpose of saving weight? The Cobalt SS Turbo Brembo calipers can be had pretty cheap (<$600 US) and have dust boots, lol.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #585, 02-15-2012 11:24 AM
      i was thinking along the same lines as that about the weight gain using the spot calipers .but i weighed my old rear caliper and it came to 8.2 lbs. i weighed the calipers i was going to put on the rear and they weigh 3.9 lbs .the ones i have on the front now weigh 2.9 lbs .i decided i liked the look of my new calipers so much , i am putting them on the front and the lighter caliper on the rear . with bracket the spot caliper will weigh in at 3 lbs .so i still save 2.3 lbs per wheel on the rear of the car .the old front calipers weigh 7.2 lbs so on the front i will be saving 3.3 lbs per wheel there .i finally have a scale that can weigh these things .the weight of the old rear calipers was a shocker .the price of my new front calipers and pads was 374.00 from sumitt .new calipers:

on the car :

still have to clean the rotor up .it needs some fresh paint so i was not worried about the over spray .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #586, 02-15-2012 04:58 PM
      painted the letters on my rear calipers and finished mounting and plumbed everything up.i sprayed some silver paint on a piece of cardboard and then pressed it against the caliper .worked pretty well except i should have used a smaller piece of cardboard .i had to do some minor touch up .

i used silver paint to match my new front calipers lettering .


doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #587, 02-15-2012 05:57 PM
      Very tempting to go with these calipers.... I just wish they had dust boots! In the summer, I drive mine daily now, rain or shine. Looks great!

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #588, 02-15-2012 09:43 PM
      it is the winter time where you might have a problem.i drive my car every day from april to november .not hard to rebuild these any way . thanks for the reply ,i got to say i cant wait to try these out .another thing i have learned but not confirmed is that with the bleed screws set up at the highest point of the calipers , i have just opened up the screws and waited till fluid starts running out and the bleeding seems to be done .rock hard pedal .takes about 10 minutes a caliper .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #589, 04-24-2012 09:32 AM
      just a post to stay out of archives .i am at the stage where i have a lot of painting to do and after we had a really warm march the temperature has plunged .it has been too cold too paint .so i am stalled for a while .too bad because it would be nice to see how all my changes work out .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #590, 06-21-2012 09:35 PM
      the spray bomb idea did not work out .i have been test painting the rear deck lid with the red colour and i can get it nice and smooth but the gloss is blotchy . so i gave up on that and i have bought an airless sprayer and i am probably going to paint it an easy (i hope ) colour like white .so now i have to prep the whole car and try to spray it in one go .the goal is to drive it in the fall .

el_roy1985 MSG #591, 06-22-2012 12:43 AM
      If you had the entire top half of the car prepped, I can't imagine it being much more then a few hundred bucks to get it sprayed a cheap color. Do a single stage if you really wanna save some money.

Not sure what the airless thing is though, so hopefully that works out for you if you decide to do it.


Reallybig MSG #592, 06-22-2012 02:58 AM
      I used to repair/service all sorts of airless spray equipment. Just about any setup can do a good job, (don't confuse "good job" with "factory correct") the key is to learn how it works and practice practice practice. A quality automotive paint can run $300 to $600 and up depending on a number of factors. I'd be hesitant about burning through too much of that learning. If you're just looking for a 20 foot paint job, princessauto has gallon cans of tractor black, yellow, green and red (I think). Make sure to filter the paint before trying to spray. Any chance you are willing to show us your airless system?

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #593, 06-22-2012 08:22 AM
      i will post a picture later .the problem is here in ontario , body shops are not allowed to use the old acrylic enamels and other single stage finishes .it is water based only because of all the deaths caused by unsafe use of the old paint .used to be , you could get a car painted for 400.00 to a thousand but all those guys are dead now .i plan on spraying it with rustoleum or tremclad of some kind .i am not looking for factory perfect .just want a finish that is the same texture on the whole car .i am a pretty good spray painter already .once i am done i am going to sell the sprayer on kijijii .

Eau_Rouge MSG #594, 07-24-2012 09:27 PM
      Any updates? How's the ecotoc running?

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #595, 07-24-2012 10:52 PM
      i havent run it since last fall, when it was running great .i did a lot of mods over the winter that i would really like to try out but i started doing body work and now i am kind of stalled .i hate body work so i have not had the motivation i usually have to get it done .but i will be back at it soon , just got my doublec4 headlight stuff and i have my new sprayer to try out .but its summer and i bought a seadoo and last fall i got a can am spyder .too many toys and not enough holidays right now....

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #596, 10-11-2012 07:01 PM
      i am finally back at the fiero again .today i put the rear wheels back on and fine tuned the brake line mounting .i am also working on the headlight mod but one snag with it is my overflow tank has to be moved to fit the passenger side bucket .the parking brake spot calipers are going to wait for now .i have newer lower rockers to go on and all the trim and taillights etc to put back on .then a whole lot of handsanding before i try a paint job .i am going to spray it white and do it with the car all together because i dont want to clean the sprayer more than once .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #597, 10-11-2012 07:29 PM
      the sprayer i hope to use :

starting on doublec4 hedlights:

the overflow has to be moved :

to somewhere i here i hope:

i am thinking i will get rid of the ac stuff and see what space i can free up .i dont want to put it back in the rear of the car , too much plumbing to un do .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #598, 10-31-2012 03:44 PM
      got some more done on the doublec4 headlights .so far i like this system but of course like everyone here i am doing some things differently .i want to eliminate any gap between the covers and the hood so i am playing around with some home hardware weather stripping .i have painted the covers , i use electrical tape for masking the inside .this is an old slot racer's technique , it is really easy to get a sharp line and cut contours with an exacto knife .and bleed thru is much less than with painters tape .pics:




i dont know if i will use this sealing method or not .it fits fairly tight but with the velcro attached it may be a big fight to get it in to the grooves.i cut the groove with a pair of sharp scissors .i may use small counter sunk bolts instead of the velcro as well .lots of experimenting to do .


doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #599, 10-31-2012 06:14 PM
      Looks like you're doing a great job with the lights!

I've seen some slightly lower profile weather stripping on McMaster Carr and it comes in black as well. Just an option !


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #600, 10-31-2012 06:40 PM
      there are about 8 shapes to choose from at the local hardware .this was the thickest and what i thought would be easiest .but there is another shape available that should work better now that i know i dont need it to be that thick .the ideal would be a U shape rubber channel that just snugs on to the lenses and sticks out about 3/16" and then just push it tight into the opening . i will look at the place you mentioned .i was going to paint the car white , so the white rubber will look ok i think .thanks for the comments and thanks for a great product .

doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #601, 10-31-2012 07:21 PM
      You might be able to try this:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#tr...ctive-edging/=jysgut

Click the plastic edge trim, it could work.

[This message has been edited by doublec4 (edited 10-31-2012).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #602, 11-07-2012 02:49 PM
      i decided to just use normal square edge weatherstripping .without actually seeing the product , it is hard to get the perfect solution .so i have wasted about 35 bucks on various size and shapes of foam , i think now i have something i like :



i am going to change to slightly narrower side foam to avoid the pinching you can see .and i need to find some matching screws that i like better .at the hdwre store , different lengths meant different heads .the holes were drilled and then tapped in to the buckets .bottom foam is 1.25"W x 3/16 thick trimmed to fit and double thick along the sides running down the hood .this causes the lens to match the contour better .the side foam shown is 3/8 W x 1/4 thick .i am going to 3/16 thick for the final version , should make it easier to pop the lens on and off for aiming .next will be wiring and making a harness for high beams .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #603, 11-12-2012 03:48 PM
      made up the headlight wiring harness for the drivers side .i want all 4 lamps on for the high beams so i soldered a 7A diode from the high beam 12 V positive wire to the lowbeam 12 V positive wire .also took a feed from the 12V high beam to the coil of a relay and to the input post of same relay .then the NO post of the relay feeds the positive wires for the high beam flappers . i assumed the negatives on the light harnesses were not switched , so then all the negatives got tied in to the low beam harness negative .so when i am on low beam just one light per side is on with the flapper closed .when high beams are selected , then all four lamps will be on with all flappers open .my only concern was how hot the diode might get with the highs on .left the lights on with the car running for 1/2 hour and the diodes got fairly warm but not really hot so they will do the job .pics:




i dont have a pic of it yet but i also changed to the narrower side foam and shimmed the cover so that it now matches the hood contours almost perfectly .i have ordered the other HID kit i need and will have the lights all wrapped up by friday .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 11-12-2012).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #604, 11-20-2012 11:47 AM
      my diode backfeed idea worked great on one side , but with all 4 lights hooked up there appears to be too much voltage drop to get all 4 lights to fire from the high beam circuit .so i have to figure out a way to bring another feed in .for now , low beams are the outer lights and high beams are the inner lights .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #605, 12-03-2012 01:09 PM
      turns out i gave up on the diode back feed idea too soon .i forgot that with a ballast setup like this the voltage is critical and when i thought it was not going to work , i forgot to try it with the engine running .so i soldered another diode in and turned the engine on and tried the lights and they work perfect .you just do not have high enough voltage to fire all four lamps without the engine running .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #606, 12-06-2012 09:15 PM
      got my headlights aimed tonight .really easy to get right , these kits are really well designed .i live on a single lane straight level road and that made it simple too .i aimed the low beams to aim the way my ford focus does, and walked in the line that a car coming from the opposite direction would follow .really easy on the eyes! such an improvement over my old set up and over stock as well .i did not need to aim the high beams , i guessed pretty good in the garage and they simply light up everything in sight .real flamethrowers .any one who is having trouble with their pop ups , dont hesitate to get a set of these .lighter weight and better light to boot .i looked at my can am spyder roadster and it has the same headlights as the doublec4 kit .

doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #607, 12-07-2012 05:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

got my headlights aimed tonight .really easy to get right , these kits are really well designed .i live on a single lane straight level road and that made it simple too .i aimed the low beams to aim the way my ford focus does, and walked in the line that a car coming from the opposite direction would follow .really easy on the eyes! such an improvement over my old set up and over stock as well .i did not need to aim the high beams , i guessed pretty good in the garage and they simply light up everything in sight .real flamethrowers .any one who is having trouble with their pop ups , dont hesitate to get a set of these .lighter weight and better light to boot .i looked at my can am spyder roadster and it has the same headlights as the doublec4 kit .


Thanks for the review!

Glad you got the lights together and aimed. They are definitely an improvement over stock and the light output is great. Hope to see continued progress with your car.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #608, 12-11-2012 07:03 PM
      my goal now is to get the car painted and ship shape by may so that i can go to the 30th fiero show in indianapolis .it is running again , been driving around the cottage roads to see what is going to leak etc (car has been in the garage for over a year).so i have two leaks : the cavalier clutch master cylinder has developed a leak and the gasket at the oil drain on the turbo has a slow leak .the turbo will be easy , i have another gasket somewhere if i can find it .if not i can just make one .the clutch cylinder will be harder as it is in here somewhere :

you can see the fluid resoirvoir here :

the one thing i dont like about turbos : plumbing !

i am going to try to just run to the HTOB without the slave/master combo that i have now if i can .i have not had to do any work to the cavalier end of things as far as clutch hydraulics go .i want to try to maintain the self bleeding feature of the cavalier system .even though it has developed a leak , the clutch still works fine .i know some of the F23 swap threads show adapters to do this , i will have to do a bit of searching .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #609, 12-16-2012 04:54 PM
      building a new home for the fiero .this is an old fabric shed that the fabric rotted off of .i am bracing it up and building a wooden door for it and it is sitting on a pressure treated wooden floor .it will be covered with a blue poly tarp and then a heavy duty bale tarp over that .it is 12X20 and i hope to be able to heat it .doing a shed this way is the only way to survive the wind around here :


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #610, 12-29-2012 11:50 PM
      the shed is mostly done and insulated .the fiero is in and now i can concentrate on prepping for paint .the shed is heated with 2 1500 watt heaters .i had to run a second circuit when i managed to fry my ground fault receptacle on the house by running a shop vac and one heater at the same time on that circuit .fixed that and added another heavy duty cord feed from inside the garage and i added a second heater to that circuit .so now i can shut off one heater and run tools without popping another gfci .pics:



lots of room to work and i am adding more storage cabinets and work benches whenever they are on sale .and now i have lots of space in my real garage so i can park my go to work car in at night .so much nicer to not have to clean the snow and ice off at 6:45 am.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #611, 01-02-2013 07:47 PM
      putting the new shed to good use .i bought a bunch of rustoleum spray bombs a while back.i gave up on the red that i wanted to use as it came out blotchy. the arctic grey i used on my new to me rear clip was very easy to use .so i decided to paint the upper half of the car in the grey .so i put a finish coat on the rear clip and painted the roof .working not too bad , i had 2 full cans left so i decide to get some more .go to home hardware to find out that shade is discontinued .great.i gathered all my part cans and managed to finish the whole top of the car .i now have half a can left and that has to do a second coat of the rear deck lid and some minor touch ups .the lower half of my car is gloss black .i dont mind the way they look together , but the bumpers have spider webbing .and i wanted to paint the top half of the front bumper the same as the upper car .right now it is all black , the way it was when i bought it , and it does not look right as far as i am concerned .anyway , i hope to have a passable job when i am done , with a lot of buffing and waxing maybe a 10 footer .pics

slightly darker shade still available




its hard to get decent pics because the shed is a little small for the camera .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-02-2013).]

Fiero_gtp (ws6ls9@yahoo.com) MSG #612, 01-03-2013 09:26 PM
      looks like your newspaper might have messed up the paint just a little bit on the side of the window.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #613, 01-03-2013 10:10 PM
      there is a lot of reflections of the red tape that i taped up the seams of the styrofoam with.i have one run under the driver side mirror , one run right at the left hand front corner of the front hood and three finger prints on the other side of the front hood from when i lost my balance stepping over the nose .i am going to let the paint harden up for a month and then wet sand and hit them with rubbing compound .i found some water based tremclad paint that might work for the bottom half of the car .get to try out my new sprayer .first i need to see if the stuff even sticks to the old paint .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-03-2013).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #614, 01-04-2013 12:21 PM
      the gallon of water based tremclad i bought does not have good adhesion on the OEM paint .i dried it with a heater for an hour and i could still scratch it off with my fingernail .it really sticks well to the rustoleum spray paint i have been using .and there are more colours available , but i have to drive to Owen Sound Home Depot to get some .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #615, 01-16-2013 12:28 AM
      i had the whole top of the car done in the light grey rustoleum .but i did not have enough for the second coat on the deck lid .so i had to switch to the dark grey .home depot still carries the slate grey , and is a currently available colour .everytime i wet sanded a coat, i would look at the finish and think that it looked better than the high gloss unsanded paint .it is nearly impossible to get a consistent finish with the spray bombs .some panels came out perfect , others not . so i decided to wet sand the whole car and then just wax it .so the process is, two thick coats of paint ,wet sand with 800 then 1000 grit , then polish with ultra fine synthetic steel wool .gets rid of the orange peel and all the waviness .comes out looking like a sheet of semi gloss plastic.the bumper was a pain , the spider webbing was right in the bare plastic .had to use some high build polyester primer to fill the spider webbing .finally came out pretty good , nothing has come through the top coat yet .here is what the finished car is going to look like :




wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #616, 01-16-2013 12:35 AM
      more pics, you can see the difference in gloss here:

fixing the bumper


the whole top of the car except for the rear deck lid is now the darker grey .called universal slate gloss by rustoleum .



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #617, 02-10-2013 03:06 PM
      it is all one colour now .really am sick of paint work .about 40 hours of wetsanding and buffing to go and then i have to decide what i want to do for 1/4 panel windows and the rear grill area .pics:


i wet sanded and polished the top of the back bumper, in a couple of weeks it should all look like this:


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #618, 02-10-2013 03:07 PM
      double post , sorry .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 02-10-2013).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #619, 02-24-2013 10:15 PM
      fixed my turbo oil leak with a new gasket and a new hose .fixed the clutch leak , real easy and cheap as in free .what happened was some crud got in to the cavalier master and caused the leak .took it apart , cleaned it and put it back together and no more leak .here is a bad pic of the crud around the seal :


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #620, 03-15-2013 04:43 PM
      put the insurance back on since i am very close to being done with everything .weather is still too bad to drive the car yet , we are getting a late spring .i now have the back half of the car back together :

painted the fastback trim to match the car and repainted the gills in black satin

got rid of my icebox, took up to much room and i never used it any way


later i also removed the evap canister(AC) since it frees up some space and i dont intend to get the AC working anyway .
installed earls solo bleeders and bled the brakes .i got these because i seldom have any help and i was having trouble getting the last bit of air out .these work better than any thing else i have tried and are cheap for most cars around 30 bucks for 4 .would be good for clutch lines too .


my interiour is all back together , just have to set the ride height and then off for an alignment .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #621, 03-27-2013 03:29 PM
      got the car out of the shed and in to the garage .could not get the ride height set in the shed because of the "give" in the floor .it was driving me nuts until i figured what was happening .got my lenses on my lights .decided to just lay a bed of velcro down to fill in the gaps .not perfect because i did not drill my holes in the right place and i dont have an even gap.i am going to get another set of lenses and do a better job . took a few pics,also a pic of my last allignment read out. you can see i had a few settings in the red , not too far out that it caused any problems with tire wear or handling .hopefully i will be all green after the next allignment .still cant drive it yet , we are still getting snow and the roads are covered in salt and sand .





doublec4 (doublec4@hotmail.com) MSG #622, 03-27-2013 08:14 PM
      Nice! I've yet to see anyone paint the inside of the headlights silver, great job!

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #623, 04-01-2013 04:05 PM
      thanks .i will PM you about another set of lenses soon .today is april 1 and i still cant drive the car because it is too cold out . and it has snowed off and on all day .my car has summer high performance tires that are not supposed to be used at around the freezing mark .took some pics .i cant finish my wet sanding and minor touch ups i want to do yet cause it is to cold and i dont want to put it back in the shed .looks good in pics though .yesterday afternoon was warm enough to go for a shakedown run .the bumpsteer kit works well , nice and stable on the bumpy road on the way to work .my new brake calipers really dont improve the braking much , but they are smoother than the old ones .i was getting some low speed pedal pulsing before that is gone now .i had the discs turned while i was still driving it and that did not fix the problem .the pedal is a bit softer now and goes further down to the floor , but not bottoming .i may put the S10 brake booster upgrade on it sometime .pics:




looking at rear window options now , am thinking maybe the fiero fibreglass open panels .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #624, 04-25-2013 07:33 PM
      i ended up buying new tinted 1/4 windows from the fiero store .they were back ordered so i waited about 2 weeks but they look nice .it has been too cold to install them though .i bought a new instrument cluster today :

this one is from an 04 ecotec powered sunbird .it is compatible with my cavalier harness .i find it funny that the the guage configuration is slightly different .a lot of development money down the drain for something no one would even notice .this time the plan is to make a whole new pod for this cluster , rather than hack it up and make it fit in to the fiero cluster pod .tomorrow i am going to pick up some MDF and carve up a home for this cluster .i am hoping to make the turn signal indicators work as well as the backlighting .according to my cav/sunfire haynes manual , i can cut one wire and that will disable all the warning lights .i am going to try that on the old cluster .right now i just have them covered with some vinyl , but if you lean over you can see them (airbags, service soon etc).put about 2000 km on so far this season, i was kind of surprised at that with all the rotten weather .but the rotten weather means i cant ride the motorcycle so the fiero has become first pick .yesterday it snowed most of the day .nothing stayed , all melted .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #625, 04-26-2013 06:06 PM
      today we finally had some sun and warmer weather , so i put on my new windows .they fit really well, but of course i got the passenger side a little to far foreward .and it stuck so well i did not attempt to take it off .its not too noticeable but annoying to me .i ended up putting my old drip rails back on .once i put the windows in ,there was space that needed covering so back on they went .i hope to find a nice set sometime .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 04-26-2013).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #626, 07-04-2013 11:24 PM
      Went to the 30th and had a great time .40 miles from home and the car started surging at 100 KM/hr every once in a while .very annoying as it has been forever since i have had a problem .i decided to gas up before crossing the border , and as long as i did not have a problem starting it i would keep going .started right up , so off i went .the surging happened off and on all the way down .ran a scan when i got to the hotel and it was not throwing any codes but i did notice my air intake temps were hitting the low 40's C .when i got home , i put my ice can back in the front trunk and changed the fuel filter .with out the reservoir of water , i think the pump was just pushing air half the time .any way , the fuel filter was full of some tar looking stuff so it seems to have solved the problem .there was a fellow at the show with wheel scales and i had the car weighed .results 819 driver rear 577 driver front
742 pass rear 653 pass front
that puts the total at 2791 lbs with frt /rear at 44% frt and 56% rear .this was with a full tank of gas .i thought i would be lighter but i have a lot of turbo related stuff that easily adds up to over 100 lbs .they ran the scales friday night briefly before the monsoon hit and again sat night after the Callies speech so i dont know if a lot of cars did this .hopefully more people will post results so i can compare .thanks to all the 30 th organizers and volunteers , lots of hard work was put in to make it a great show .


Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #627, 10-03-2013 08:11 AM
      Excellent build my friend! Thanks for paving the way for the people who want to do an Ecotec swap. Although the journey was long, the end result was well worth it.

I've met WFTB in person, very cool guy! I've also gone for a drive with him in this awesome little car. This car is so much fun!

To anyone thinking of doing the swap, go for it!


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #628, 11-02-2013 03:03 PM
      sorry it has taken so long to reply and update but been really busy with work and other projects .it was great to meet a fiero enthusiast from nearby .off and on all summer i have had fuel problems .after the car acted up again , i decided to quit stalling and drop the tank and see what was going on .i expected to find a bunch of crap but it was clean .so i ordered a new AC delco OEM fuel pump .cheapest i could find was 280.00 including tax and delivery .aftermarket ones were as cheap as 80.00 but i dont want to drop the tank for a long time so i passed on those .it runs awesome again , like it did before i worked on it for a year .i tried to get my fuel gauge to work while i had the tank out .turns out that the float was hitting the plastic baffle in the tank and it could not rise .so i cut a hole in the baffle but now i have a different problem .the float seems to have gotten stuck in the 3/4 full position against the top of the baffle .so i am still using the trip odometer to decide when to fill up .i have the old pump and sender unit still , so maybe i can figure out a fix .but , not going to drop the tank again any time soon .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #629, 11-18-2013 05:04 PM
      putting it away for the winter soon .funny but my car is still the only documented running turbo ecotec swap .planning more suspension work soon but not till the new year .



akademikjeanius MSG #630, 11-22-2013 12:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

...funny but my car is still the only documented running turbo ecotec swap...



Makes NO sense to me that folks are shying away from this swap the way they are. Thanks for being a pioneer and a well-documenting one at that.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #631, 12-13-2013 10:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

putting it away for the winter soon .funny but my car is still the only documented running turbo ecotec swap .planning more suspension work soon but not till the new year .



i wish my driveway still looked like that ... snow started here in late november and never left .unusual for around here , snow that sticks normally comes around xmas .but i thought i would post to celebrate 50000 views a while back .thanks to everybody for following along and have a great winter ....


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #632, 03-12-2014 10:40 PM
      Car has not been worked on this year .Other project has taken all my time , but I have more things
I want to do to this car .Driving it this year with the bad winter is still about a month away .I noticed another ecotec swap is starting so I thought I would bump this so he does not feel so all alone.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #633, 07-14-2014 01:00 AM
      I have done nothing to the car this year except drive it .With the new fuel pump I put on in the late summer last year ,it has been running great .I am still planning suspension work and interiour upgrades but not untill the snow flies .Right now I am sitting in Sheridan WY on holidays with my youngest son .We are off to Yellowstone tomorrow hoping to get a campsite and spend a couple of days .So far we have been to Cinncinatti (Reds game) ,St. Louis(saw the Cards) Denver(Rockies game) and have not seen a Fiero .After Yellowstone , we are going through Seattle and up to Vancouver BC .Not in the Fiero though , not enough room .Driving our 2011 Ford Focus and it has been cheap , comfortable and reliable .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #634, 12-05-2014 10:11 AM
      So the car is now in the " work on " position in the garage .This spot was occupied by our 1991 Civic wagon while I built a new stainless steel exhaust , put in a new gas tank and rebuilt the front and rear suspensions .The plan for this winter is :
1- make and install an upper control arm /coilover suspension system
2-Utilize a stock rear knuckle and rear brakes as part of this package .
The reason for this is twofold : I want the lightest suspension possible and I want a parking brake .
The stock disc is very light compared to the 11" lebarron rotors on the back now .The stock rear caliper is a fairly lightweight AL unit .On my fiero , judging by the amount of wear on the rear pads vs the front pads , the rear brakes do not provide any more than maybe 30% of the total braking .And my brakes work really well on the street and on a track .I use the stock MC and booster and proportioning valve .I will probably gain some unwanted rear brake fade but I am not concerned about it . And in the looks department , stock brakes have no cool factor at all .But I am hoping the gains outweigh the losses .No pics for now , my old camera crapped out and still waiting for the new one to come in the mail .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #635, 12-07-2014 08:11 PM
     
This is the start of how I hope to make the upper arms .I had made an attempt at this a couple of years ago but gave up when I felt over my head on this project .But there have been a lot of threads and people doing similar things that I developed some ideas that I think are workable .I have all the bushings I need to make the arms but I need to hunt down the tube steel I need .I am not trying to reinvent the wheel here , the geometry shoud be very similar to stock .I am going to eliminate the need for tie rods and utilize coil overs similar to what I have on the front end .I want much lighter unsprung weight and adjustability .and if it does not work , I will be able to revert to what I have now .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-07-2014).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #636, 12-12-2014 12:51 AM
      I bought these delrin bushings from West Coast Fieros probably 7 years ago .Thought I could make them work with my Held Motorsport front arms but not possible at the time .But now I am going to use them for the outer bushings of my new upper control arms .So spent most of today figuring how to make the arm holders for these bushings .They are designed to fit stock 84 -87 UCA so they fit no standard pipe sizes . So I cut , bent and welded a little metal barrel to fit .It is three petals welded and filed to fit .Going to make another one tomorrow .I wanted to get our local machinest to make these but he is on holidays and the other guy is retired .So being the impatient guy that I am , I made one myself .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-12-2014).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #637, 12-12-2014 07:32 PM
      These are the bushings that will be on the frame side .I got our now retired machinist to turn them down and make the pipe that will be welded to the arm an exact fit .Drilling a hole for the grease fitting will make sure the AL bushing will move with the arm .I hope these bushings will last as long as I do , just have to keep them full of grease .They are very precise and very smooth .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-16-2014).]

Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #638, 12-15-2014 07:48 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

I noticed another ecotec swap is starting so I thought I would bump this so he does not feel so all alone.


Were you thinking of me when you said this? If so, thanks.

I see that you're starting some suspension work. Let me know if I can assist with some laser cut parts. Just email me some quick sketch's with dimensions and I'll burn them for you.

PS-I'm picking up two more Ecotec engines this week. Need anything?



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #639, 12-16-2014 08:04 PM
      That is correct and then there is now another fellow doing an LE5 turbo swap .I have been following your thread love your fabricating work .Dont really need any parts right now , I am kind of planning as I build and none of the parts that I am making are all that complicated .Got some more of the frame mount done tonight , but not worth a picture yet . Thanks .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #640, 12-25-2014 02:34 PM
      Progress so far :

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-25-2014).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #641, 12-25-2014 03:08 PM
      Since you can't really see by the photo , this is what I have done so far : I had to cut down the frame rail because I did not like the slope the upper arms will be at .After cutting , I welded a 1"by1" X 1/8" wall square tube down in to the exposed channel .Then I welded a 2" by 24" 1/8" steel plate along the outer face of the frame rail .This was welded to the square tube as well .Another long plate was welded to the inside of the frame rail .I replicated the shape of the inside of the frame rail by first welding it in the middle and then pulling it in to the rail where it bends with C clamps .I will be welding a 1/4"thick top plate on and a version of the arm bushing mounting frame that you see in the picture will be bolted to the plate with 1/2" grade 8 bolts .The bushing assembly will be adjustable with eccentric washers and mounts where two of the bolts are .This will be the toe adjustment , camber will be adjusted by the cam bolts on the inner arm mounts , identical to the way the struts are adjusted .I was hoping to get more of this done today , but I do not have the 1/4 plate yet .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-25-2014).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #642, 12-30-2014 06:57 PM
      Now I have the inner bushing mounts welded in place .I can now bolt them in place on their perches and start making the upper arms .I still have a lot of boxing and filling in to do , but that will wait till I drop the cradle .There is just not enough room to do a decent job of it with everything in place .

Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #643, 12-30-2014 08:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

So the car is now in the " work on " position in the garage .This spot was occupied by our 1991 Civic wagon while I built a new stainless steel exhaust , put in a new gas tank and rebuilt the front and rear suspensions .The plan for this winter is :
1- make and install an upper control arm /coilover suspension system
2-Utilize a stock rear knuckle and rear brakes as part of this package .
The reason for this is twofold : I want the lightest suspension possible and I want a parking brake .
The stock disc is very light compared to the 11" lebarron rotors on the back now .The stock rear caliper is a fairly lightweight AL unit .On my fiero , judging by the amount of wear on the rear pads vs the front pads , the rear brakes do not provide any more than maybe 30% of the total braking .And my brakes work really well on the street and on a track .I use the stock MC and booster and proportioning valve .I will probably gain some unwanted rear brake fade but I am not concerned about it . And in the looks department , stock brakes have no cool factor at all .But I am hoping the gains outweigh the losses .No pics for now , my old camera crapped out and still waiting for the new one to come in the mail .


As it appears from your comments and photo's, is it safe to assume that you're building an SLA (short/long arm) rear suspension? If so, are you doing this to gain more negative camber under jounce/compression?

You also mentioned you want the lightest suspension possible. Is it fair to say the extra steel plate added and the upper control arm would make this set up slightly more heavy than stock?

[This message has been edited by Lunatic (edited 12-30-2014).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #644, 12-30-2014 09:55 PM
      In the old days we used to call them double wishbones .But yes a SLA is what I am working toward .As far as weight goes , the frame bracing will add about 4 pounds a side .Getting rid of the Held bumpsteer kit and going back to the RCC lower controls arms I used to have on the car will save about 8 lbs per side .The bumpsteer kit works well but it is heavy .I don't know how much going back to the stock disc and brakes on the rear will save but it will be slightly lighter than the 11" disc I have now .And a coilover compared to a strut is always lighter .I will gain the ability to add more negative camber if I want , but I do not know if overall that is an advantage over a strut system .From what I have observed and learned over the years , the more a strut compresses as it leans in to a corner , it gains negative camber .There has to be a reason Porsche uses struts on all 4 corners of the 911 . I do not think an SLA does this , at least not from my experiments on the front of my fiero . What I hope to gain is adjustability and a much better shock / spring unit .Having a more modern style coilover instead of the old strut in there means I can use all the latest technology if I want to .

Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #645, 12-31-2014 07:46 AM
      Ah yes, I now recall the Held kit that was on the back of your car. It did look a little heavy and bulky. I like where you're going with the rear suspension. I once read an article, redesign a Fiero suspension for better geometry here on PFF. It's a good read if you have a spare hour or two! I'm looking forward to the modifications and if I can assist you with any laser cut components, let me know.
PS-I have a spare set of coil-overs should you want/need them. I think they're only 8" springs but they might work for your application.

[This message has been edited by Lunatic (edited 12-31-2014).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #646, 12-31-2014 03:04 PM
      Thanks .I have read pretty well all the suspension related threads over the years and while it probably would be nice too improve on the geometry , there really is not enough room to make much in the way of changes to improve things much .And my car does not suffer from most of the bad things that happen to stock 84-87 fieros .My car does not "squat" under acceleration nor does it dive under braking .I figure the reason for this is that it has been lowered substantially and the engine weight is lower than stock .With much wider tires in the back I can get out of throttle induced oversteer by lifting off the throttle without having to worry about a spin out .So what I hope to do is just replicate the up and down motion I have now but do it with an upper control arm instead of a strut . After my first mock up , I will measure what changes happen as the suspension goes up and down .Then make changes as needed , and then finalize the design .And then I will definitely look to get some pieces laser cut , thanks for the offer .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #647, 12-31-2014 05:51 PM
      by drilling a hole on each side of the old strut and welding a nut on each side , i have made a mount for the wheel side bushings .Now I can mock up an arm and see how it will move .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #648, 01-03-2015 05:33 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #649, 01-04-2015 12:06 AM
      I have now mocked up a set of arms .The inner mount is tack welded in place .What I have to do now is put my old RCC arm on with a stock spindle and see how it moves .With the bump steer arm on and the strut disconnected at the top , the arm seems to move up and down pretty well .But I will not know if I need to make changes until I have it bolted to the RCC arm and take proper measurements as I move it up and down .Then I can use the mock up arm to make a fixture to make two identical finished arms .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #650, 01-04-2015 11:26 AM
      I needed to check straightness of the arms so I lightly filed down a piece of 1/2 all thread rod lengthwise so it would fit snugly in the 12 mm holes in the bushings . Slid the big end on and this showed I am not quite there yet .The outer ends do not line up straight so I need to fix that before I carry on .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #651, 01-04-2015 04:00 PM
      While I was figuring out how to straighten the arm I accidentally invented a jig I can make my arms with:

Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #652, 01-05-2015 05:19 AM
      I was going to recommend making a jig to hold it square as you are going to have to make the other side as well. It looks like you've already done that.

I like where this going, however, I have to ask, would installing the 88 rear cradle not be a solution here?

Also, I have some spare Heim joints. The swage tubes are too long but perhaps you could use the joints themselves.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #653, 01-05-2015 04:11 PM
      I gave up on the idea of an 88 cradle swap mostly because of having to go stateside to get one .But in the end I really wanted to get rid of the struts .I like the coilovers I have in the front and that is what will going in the back .I considered rod ends for the easy toe adjustability but the delrins I am using are grease able and should hold up better for street use .That sure is a nice collection , thanks for the offer .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #654, 01-05-2015 11:14 PM
      One thing I should mention is the finished design will feature a cross brace between the arms so that they become a single arm per side .That will be the last feature I add , because it is really easy to take them in and out the way they are now .I want them to be really stiff , to eliminate unwanted deflections under load .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #655, 01-16-2015 10:13 AM
      I checked all the movements with the upper arms and the bump steer arms .With the chassis sitting level , I jacked the suspension up and down through its range of motion and it looked good .Camber remained mostly constant with slight changes at the extremes of travel .Very little toe change and again only happening at very bottom or top .I tilted the car and simulated a big corner lean and the tire patch ended up at 0 degrees so i was happy with these results .So I replaced the bumpsteer arm with the RCC arm and stock spindle .Camber at ride height became -5 degees and not enough adjustment on the strut to get it to -1 or even close to that .The RCC arms seem to push the bottom of the spindle out .Now I am going to move the mounts for the upper arms further outboard to get the adjustment back .And the toe will probably be out of wack now too .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-16-2015).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #656, 01-16-2015 10:20 AM
      For measuring purposes , I put a disc on backwards in the above pic .I don't have any stock discs and the 11" disc does not fit a stock spindle .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #657, 01-16-2015 07:41 PM
      I figured out how to cut the mount portion off of my old coilover strut .I thought it could make a good base for my upper arm /coilover mount .I managed to save the coilover kit pieces so in 2 months or so I can sell them in the mall .Once I am done using this piece for mock ups and measuring , it will be hopefully transformed in to an all purpose mount .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-18-2015).]

Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #658, 01-18-2015 07:44 AM
      That's the nice thing about winter in Canada, it gives us time to work on our rides in preparation for the next driving season. Keep the R&D coming!
I'm interested in the coil over sleeves and springs. Let me know once you're ready to part with them.

PS-I have a short set of coil overs should you be able to utilize them.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #659, 01-20-2015 12:29 PM
      I will save the kits for you . I have my old carrera coilovers that used to be on the front of the car and I hope to use them to mock up a mount system .They are a popular size so if I can make them work , then my options for coilovers will be huge .Right now I am trying to decide whether to make the arms longer or to move the mount points out .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #660, 01-20-2015 10:31 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #661, 01-20-2015 10:33 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #662, 01-20-2015 10:48 PM
     
So this is what I did today .I cut off some metal of the former strut bottom so that i could mount the plates that you see .After the bolts were mounted as shown , I welded the flange nuts to the plates .Then I cut a piece of 1 1/2" pipe that will be welded in between the plates as a spreader .Another pipe stub mount will get welded on both sides to hold the arms to the spindle .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-21-2015).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #663, 01-23-2015 11:32 PM
      So I have made some more progress .The mount that goes on to the spindle stub to hold the arms is now completed .I have run in to a snag though .The camber adjustment on the lower strut cam bolt no longer does anything .This was supposed to be where small changes to camber would be made .But nothing happens when the cam bolt is turned .Looking at it , I think the solution is to flip the mount and have the cam bolt at the top .A good thing I did not weld the mount I fabbed up to the old part of the strut that it fits too .here is the mount before welding :
Going to see if I can correct it tomorrow .I do not want to have to unbolt the control arm mounts to make small changes .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #664, 01-24-2015 02:52 PM
      Looks like it will not be possible to flip the mount to make the cam bolt work to change camber . Right now , rotating the cam bolt just gives a small adjustment to upper arm angle .I put the RCC arm back on .I had a bit of work to get the ball joint stud to fit tight in to the spindle . The gap was full of crud and rust so it would not pinch tight on the stud .Also the bolt was worn , allowing some unwanted up and down slop .I cleaned out the crap with my grinder and a thin cut off wheel and used the good bolt out of my bumpsteer arm and now it fits factory tight .The upper arm mounts were tightened down at a "best guess" position with regards to camber .Toe position right now was determined by the bumpsteer arm setting and should be close to factory setting . So I bolted it all together and took some measurements .At ride height I got lucky as my guesstimate gave me 1 degree negative camber , a good starting position .Going up and 1 1/2" both ways from ride height results in no camber change .A slight positive camber change occurs in the upper areas of compression travel and it goes more negative at full droop .Nothing to worry about there as suspension will almost never be in those positions on the road .The thing I am very happy about is that throughout the normal range of motion I could not measure any toe change .From full droop to upper limit of travel is less than 1/32" of toe in .Again , nothing that will happen during normal driving .The one area that I feel the need to improve on is resistance to flex .It could just be that I do not have the new mounts welded to the strut supports yet and the lower arm is not bolted tight to the cradle yet , but reefing on the backwards mounted disc does give a very small amount of movement .To make sure I can eliminate the unwanted movement , I think I can add some angle brackets from the outer side of the arms to the most inboard part of the strut mount .This should get rid of what little movement there is , and improve the mount to double shear . The arms at ride height are level and paralell to each other .There is no binding going up and down , very smooth .Now I need to get the proper tubing I need to make the finished arms and build the extra braces .I think I have a basic design that should work .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-24-2015).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #665, 01-24-2015 03:03 PM
      In this pic , you can see where I can weld in some angled brackets to eliminate flex .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #666, 01-25-2015 02:09 PM
      Now that I got some daylight on the subject , I can clearly see that the movement is caused by not having the lower arm mounting bolts tightened .Going to make the braces any way , but they are not really needed .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #667, 01-25-2015 04:52 PM
      Looks like i can only make a brace for one side .If I put one on both sides , I won't be able to get the mount bolts in .One brace is adequate from what I can see any way .
I think there is a little confusion about how this is supposed to work .So to go from the bottom to the top , this is the setup:
RCC lower control arm with stock ball joint
Stock spindle
No toe link arm
Custom built upper arm mount welded to the cut off bottom of the original strut assembly and bolted to the stock spindle with stock mounting bolts
Custom built upper control arms with delrin inner and outer bushings.
QA1 coilovers pivot mounted top and bottom.I have not quite figured out how I am going to mount the coilovers yet , but I have a rough idea that will work I hope .As you can see by the picture , I have more welding and some clean up grinding to do .I just ran out of propane so that is why I am posting instead of working .My garage is not insulated so I use a propane heater to stop from freezing out there .The garage is well ventilated , so the fumes are not a problem .The picture shows the bumpsteer arm attached to the arm mount .I just use it as a "holder" while I weld .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-25-2015).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #668, 01-25-2015 09:37 PM
      All welded up .Needs more smoothing with the grinder before I paint this assembly .I found a place in Mississauga where I can get the right tubing to build the arms with , might go down there tomorrow .

Bloozberry MSG #669, 01-25-2015 09:55 PM
      Where are you planning to attach the shock/strut?

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #670, 01-25-2015 10:40 PM
      The pivot mount will be outboard of the pipe that is welded in the middle and between there and the the spindle stub .It will not fit down completely in between but I can get it recessed in about halfway .I have not decided exactly where to mount the top of the coilover yet .I do not know what angle I want to put the coilover at yet .It cannot go straight up like the strut because then shock travel would equal wheel travel would equal broken shocks .Have to get the right ratio there .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #671, 01-26-2015 09:04 AM
     
Looking at the bracket in the last picture , I just realized that using the strut bottom for the base of the bracket is not needed .Since the cam bolt adjustment does nothing any way , I can make a much nicer looking bracket without the remains of the strut in it .I can get all the dimensions I need off the existing bracket .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #672, 01-27-2015 11:45 PM
      I have the outer delrin bushings in the machine shop getting the AL bits machined to fit in the DOM tubing I bought at a place called the Metal Supermarket down in Mississauga .Fun little place , great selection and they will sell you anywhere from 6" to 6 miles of just about anything metal .But I do not know if I will end up using the outboard bushings or not .Yarmouth fiero came up with a bracket idea to attach a tie rod to the lower control arm .It looks very simple to make and if I used it instead of a rigid upper control arm I would have more flexibility in control arm placement .With what I am trying to do now , to replicate the up and down motion and placement that the strut creates , I conclude that the arm could only be located in one place with the only variables being the height of the mount on the spindle stub and the upward or downward angle of the arms at ride height .Owing to the space limitations with my engine transaxle combination , the maximum length of the upper arms is 5.5" centre to centre .That is pretty short , but still workable .My wife has a car parked for the winter with a similar length upper rear control arm . Anyway ,if you imagine a line drawn between the ball joint and straight up to the top strut mount , you have a line that you could run an upper control arm at right angles to make something that would move the wheel up and down similar to what happens with the strut .Except that because you have now created an unequal length upper and lower control arm suspension ,it follows an ellipse rather than a straight line .The problems inherent in this design of mine are that if you look at the strut stub without the strut on , the line it follows appears to lean towards the front of the vehicle .So if you want anti squat , the angle of my arms is actually backwards . The other strange thing has to do with the angle deviation from longitudinal of the factory lower control arm mounting points vs the angle of my control arm inner mounting points .Keep in mind that for my upper arms to maintain the toe constant they have to be lineal and parallel to each other .So direction of the line drawn between the inner bushings of the upper control arms as designed compared to the line drawn between the inner lower factory bushings would form a shallow X rather than an 11 .So I don't think it would be possible to even use suspension software to predict how this would function because who would even think to design it that way ? But the thing is , doing stuff like this is my hobby .Just because it should not work , does not mean it wouldn't work .But if something easier comes along , who am I to flog a dead horse .I still would like to see how this setup would work , suspension design truly is more of a black art rather than pure science anyways , but I am going to change direction here .If I use Yarmouths neat little bracket ,I can use an upper ball joint instead of two bushings and I can angle the arm any way I want and I can make it parallel to the to the lower control arm mounts .And a bonus is that the bumpsteer arms have everything I need to finish the bracket .The trouble with using a spindle designed for a strut is that it has to move up and down in one angle .If you lever the stub fore and aft to change the arm angle , you just lengthened or shortened the cars wheelbase .And if you rotate the stub , you change the toe .It limits your options .So the next time I post , you will see something completely different .Might be a while .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #673, 02-02-2015 03:09 PM
      I have been busy reading my suspension book and have established some basic dimensions and angles and a path forward .Looking at my old bumpsteer arms , not only can I salvage the parts needed to make a Yarmouthfiero bracket , the bracket itself can be made from a part of the arm .
If you look at the square pivot bar that is bolted in where the lower ball joint should be , you can see that I can cut it to bolt to the ball joint pinch bolt and then cut the post that bolts to the tie rod arm a little shorter. Drill and tap the bar , get a shorter bolt for the tie rod arm and I will have my bump steer bracket .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #674, 02-04-2015 05:41 PM
      I tried making a bracket out of the bumpsteer arm but that did not workout very well .That and the fact that the finished product was going to weigh over 5 pounds made me decide to attempt making one from scratch .It is a variation of what Yarmouth drew up .I have not carved it up to make the rod end mount yet .I need a ball joint to measure so I get the hole in the right spot and I don't want to mess up the ones on the arms now .CDN tire showed 0 stock in the warehouse so I will try one of the local parts guys on saturday . There is a corner gusset and a back side brace that will be added next time I get a chance to work on this .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 02-05-2015).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #675, 02-06-2015 10:18 PM
      Got a little more done on the bumpsteer arm .I was looking at how I could brace it up some more , and I realized the spindle has sort of a natural brace built in to it :
I ground a flat spot on the little wing (I think it was a steering limiter for the front of an X car , does nothing on the rear of a fiero ) The corner bracket butts up against this wing and that will prevent the brace from bending out .I have found that the spindle you are looking at is garbage .It looks like it was driven with a loose or broken cinch bolt and it is too sloppy to use .No matter how much I tighten the bolt , the ball joint stud stays sloppy .I traded member Lunatic 4 spindles for a GT wing and I found a better one that fits nice and tight .But now I have to change my new hub over to that spindle .On the bright side , I can do a better job of carving the wing to give better support for the brace .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #676, 02-06-2015 10:24 PM
      Heres the angle bracket tacked in place :
It is too dark in the garage at night to do a good job of the welding so I will finish it up tomorrow .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #677, 02-07-2015 12:03 PM
      Now that I have been forced in to working with a bone stock spindle , I realize there are more ways to brace this piece than I first thought .If you leave the steering stop mostly as is and just grind off what you need to fit your brace in , you can drill and tap a hole and bolt directly to the spindle .I added another small brace and welded everything up and I think I have a mount that can not bend or twist now .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #678, 02-07-2015 12:08 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #679, 02-07-2015 12:13 PM
      Grind the spindle steering stop:


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #680, 02-07-2015 12:21 PM
      Here is the other side of the brace all welded up .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #681, 02-07-2015 07:21 PM
      So after about 2 hours of marking , measuring , erasing and re-marking , putting the bracket on and off I finally went for it and drilled the hole that holds the rod end .I just figured if I got it wrong , I can make a new bottom for the bracket .Put the bracket on with the arm bolted in and made some marks so I could see if It moves out of position while the suspension goes up and down .It stayed put , so that was a big relief .I used the mock up arms and bracket to keep it all lined up as the assembly went up and down .So they are good for something after all . Now I can reinforce the area around the rod end and start figuring out the upper arms . I have decided to buy some ready made SPC arms that utilize a Chysler style screw in ball joint .They are adjustable from 7 - 9 inches and available offset and angled or straight ball joint mount , whatever you want .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #682, 02-14-2015 01:42 PM
      Except for some cleaning up and painting , the bumpsteer arm assembly is now done .I also purchased some Heidts Mustang 2 tubular A arms .I was going to use SPC arms but 7 " was the shortest they make and that is about 1/2" too long .The Heidts are 8" but very easy to cut and shorten .Final finished length is 6.5 " . It would have been nice to use the arms as is but there just is not enough room .Bumpsteer stuff:

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #683, 02-14-2015 01:54 PM
      Arms , showing difference in length . Other than the length , these arms have a great shape with lots of room for the coilover .Camber adjustment will be by slotted mounts , similar to a Mustang 2 custom suspension .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #684, 02-15-2015 10:18 AM
      I spent some time last night catching up on DonP's racing fiero thread and I was trying to figure out how to make the strut stub stay where it needed to be and I did what they did : welded in a temporary brace .A small floor jack is still maintaining the height and a piece of tubing was ty wrapped in place to simulate a strut .At this point , camber is sitting at +1 .A good enough starting point to make the bracket that hopefully will give an adjustment range of +1 to -3 degrees .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 02-15-2015).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #685, 02-15-2015 04:54 PM
      Spent today coming up with something to attach the ball joint to the spindle .I think I have something workable and it puts the A arm in the area I want .Doing a little more research in to upper arm angle and how much anti squat I want .A new ball joint lets me angle and tilt the arm any way I want to take measurements and it will hang there without support.Some measurements need to be taken so that the mounts are oriented in relation to the frame the same as the lower arms .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #686, 02-16-2015 02:10 PM
      So now that the spindle to ball joint adapter is complete , I need to start thinking about the geometry aspects of this build .The book I am using is Herb Adams Chassis Engineering and it has a lot of examples of right ways and mistakes and models drawn out of suspensions that work .Mostly devoted to racing suspensions but the dimensions give me a staring point anyway .The things that can't change :
1-the lower control arm length (12") and the way the inner pivots are angled to the chassis
2-unless I hack off the top of the strut hub and do something radical , the king pin inclination is around 15 degrees .For strength purposes , not an option for me .
3-6.5 " is the upper control arm length
so I can pick the angle of the upper arm and the amount of anti squat and type of shock and spring rate .Not liking the idea of picking a setup and being stuck with it , I am planning a setup that will be adjustable as to arm angle , camber and anti squat .I have a couple of designs in mind , just no time to do anything for a couple of days .I have a coilover ty wrapped at ride height and it looks like it can be mounted to the spindle adaptor and angled back to a mount on the shock tower .


Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #687, 02-17-2015 05:34 AM
      I see what you're trying to do. Now, if using an 88 upright be more beneficial for your application, I have a spare set if needed. Looking at the these two photo's, from Dave's build, (I hope he doesn't mind), one can see the advantage of using spherical joints to make the upper ball joint unnecessary. Thus providing greater travel (without binding) in the spherical joint's design properties. The mounting points of the rod ends could be placed in a variety of locations making mounting easier. Just adding another option to your design.




wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #688, 02-17-2015 02:33 PM
      I have thought about using the 88 spindles but for now I am going to see if the direction I am going pans out .It is looking really promising right now , I am really getting enthused about the project and the only thing slowing me down is work and the freezing weather .That being said , I am always interested in other directions and a set of 88 spindles would be nice to play with .I could trade you the strut coilover kits I won't be using if you want .I can take the other side off any time now .Thanks for the reply .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #689, 02-18-2015 06:14 PM
      With the stub locked in place , I needed to find the angle that the inner bushings of the lower control arm run at .So I tacked together a frame work of 2 verticles spaced the same distance from the cradle where the lower arms mount and got the angle I needed up near where the upper arms will be mounted :
By a minor stroke of luck , the front edge of the plate that is part of the frame rail reinforcing is on the angle that the upper arm needs to be at .This will make everything really easy to square up for mounting the arm .


Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #690, 02-18-2015 08:25 PM
      It appears as though you've finalized a way to mount the upper control arm to the Fiero upright. If not, I quickly drew up a little bracket that you could easily replicate for your project. (I used 1/4" for my design). It bolts over top of the upright and there's a hole in the top that would allow for the upper ball joint. (Provided one used a tapered reamer to make the hole). You could also angle the top of the bracket so that the ball joint will be in the middle of the stroke when the car is level. That should give you all the movement that you're looking for without binding on compression or rebound.





[This message has been edited by Lunatic (edited 02-18-2015).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #691, 02-19-2015 08:59 AM
      I have been a little slack in showing pics of the strut adapter .It is all done except the lower coilover mount and some grinding to round off some edges that may cause a tear in the grease boot .I am using photo bucket now because everything is done with a mac now and PIP does not work with mac .And I can't figure out how to post more than one pic per post .The adaptor was made with 2 side plates of 1/8 " plate and a top and bottom plate that frames a 3/8" wall tube that was step drilled and then finished off with a taper reamer .The ball joint is directly in front of the stub near the top of the stub .I will post some pics of the adaptor as it is now .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #692, 02-19-2015 09:07 AM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #693, 02-19-2015 09:13 AM
      These adapters are very easy to make , so if it does not work as planned a different version will be made.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #694, 02-19-2015 07:17 PM
      The slotted upper arm mounts are tacked in place now .Kind of a "heavy tack " so they won't pop off while I move them up and down .So far so good .There is 6" of travel lock to lock and more will be had once I do some clearancing on the bumpsteer bracket .A little bit of binding in full droop the way it is now .The lower strut adapter hole is going to get slotted so I can optimize the ball joint angle without changing camber .These changes should result in about 8" of free travel .That way nothing will be able to come to a hard stop at either extreme of jounce and rebound .

zkhennings MSG #695, 02-20-2015 08:57 AM
      Looking good! I was a little skeptical at first from your original arrangement but it came out very nice! Good work

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #696, 02-20-2015 10:51 AM
      Thank you . I just jacked it up and down with my dial protractor on the disc and it shows about 2.5 degrees of negative camber gain from ride height to full compression with the car sitting level . Better than I thought it would come out at .I have not checked toe change yet .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #697, 02-24-2015 11:27 AM
      Wheel sitting in place at old ride height .All clearances are good so far , have to crawl in behind so I can watch the ball joint to make sure it does not contact the tire on the way up and down .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #698, 02-24-2015 11:31 AM
      Showing clearance to wheel at bumpsteer bracket .I use 16" wheels , might be enough room to run 15's but I do not have one to try .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #699, 02-24-2015 11:35 AM
      View from above looking down at the arm mount .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #700, 02-24-2015 04:20 PM
      So I think I am close to having a workable bracket for the shock mount .First a couple of plates were drilled and bolted on and moved around until they could move up and down without interference between the shock , arms and frame .Then the plates were cut and welded to the ball joint adapters .Also managed to check for ball joint to tire clearance and everything is good there .You can look through the strut mounting hole and check it , very easy .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #701, 02-24-2015 04:21 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #702, 02-24-2015 04:23 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #703, 02-25-2015 03:51 PM
      Built a simple bracket to mount the top of the coilover :

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #704, 02-25-2015 04:14 PM
      And now the suspension will take the weight of the car: There are a lot of things to do now before this set up will be ready for the road obviously .The coilover in the pic is one I borrowed off the front of the car .I will be buying another pair of QA1 's for the back , but I need the longer travel shocks .There is not enough room on the passenger side to increase the shock angle enough to be able to use these shocks with their 4" of travel .There is a ton of bracing and welding to do and to do it right , the cradle has to be dropped .While the engine / transmission is out , I am going to reroute a lot of the plumbing , make a slight change to the exhaust and the list goes on and on .I won't bore everyone with pics of the cradle drop and tomorrow we are on vacation to Cuba so the next post might be a couple of weeks from now .I can't wait to get out of the snow and the cold .Thanks for watching .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #705, 03-09-2015 05:37 PM
      Assembly sitting off the car .Taking everything apart to drop the cradle now ,what a mess .


Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #706, 03-10-2015 06:24 PM
      Man, we just love creating work for ourselves, don't we? I think your vacation was too short! Lol. I'm enjoying the modifications from the warmth of my house. Now that it's starting to get warmer, I'll have to head out to my garage and try to keep up with you. I look forward to the finished product, you have your work cut out for you.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #707, 03-11-2015 08:29 AM
      Thanks .I have the car hanging from the chain fall now , still on jack stands , while I crawl around underneath disconnecting and draining everything .That is one problem with a turbo setup like mine , all the extra cooling lines and wiring .Should have the cradle out today sometime.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #708, 03-11-2015 07:21 PM
      So I have the cradle disconnected and remove from the car now .Finding a few things that need fixing so it is a good thing that I decided to do this now .Main motor mount is shot and the axles seem to have developed some slop where they pop in to the tranny .Looks like I need a stiffer mount , there are poly mounts available . The axle problem I need to look in to further , not sure what the fix will be there .But , I have a shop manual for the Cavalier everything came out of so should not be too hard to figure out .A lot of these parts are now 11 years old , not too surprising that some of them are starting to fail .The Fiero In hang mode :


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #709, 03-15-2015 09:40 AM
      Engine and cradle are now separated and now I can bolt the cradle in and weld up the drivers side and start work on the passenger side .

2.5 MSG #710, 03-20-2015 01:59 PM
      Thats some pretty wild fab and ideas. Impressive.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #711, 03-23-2015 02:12 PM
      Thanks , a little slow going right now but hope to get a lot done in the next few weeks .I have ordered new QA1 double adjustable coilovers and 450 LB 9" springs .I may use the new coilovers at the front and put the single adjustable on the rear with the 450 lb springs .Not sure if the springs will be heavy enough but thats the beauty of coilovers , easy to change spring rates .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #712, 04-15-2015 08:16 PM
      Not much picture worthy going on , was away for a week and now working a lot .I have the passenger side cut and braced up ready for the arm mounts .I made the inserts for the driver side arms and a lot of time is just spent running the assembly up and down and checking toe and camber change etc .These photos show the brackets and the arms bolted in and the shock adjusters in roughly their final position .The mount is temporary , I have not decided on the final design yet .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #713, 04-15-2015 08:18 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #714, 04-15-2015 08:19 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #715, 04-15-2015 08:21 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #716, 05-20-2015 11:11 PM
      I have been taking a break from the car to get all our summer stuff ready and yard work yada yada but today the weather was too cold to golf so I started to make the parts for the passenger side .It is slow going , but I cleaned up another spindle and put the new wheel hub and seal in .This spindle was caked in rust and old rust proofing but underneath all the crap it was in great shape .Got a start on the bumpsteer adapter :

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #717, 05-27-2015 03:18 PM
      I have almost got the passenger side lower control arm completed .Just have to weld the bumpsteer arm mount to the control arm .After that , I will make the upper arm mounts and weld them in place on the frame .

TXOPIE (tx.opie@gmail.com) MSG #718, 05-27-2015 03:41 PM
      Looking good...thanks for sharing the progress.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #719, 06-20-2015 03:25 PM
      Thanks for the reply .Always a lot of stuff to do in the summer so just getting a little at a time done .It has been rainy and cool a lot lately so I managed to get the passenger side assembly welded up and mounted in place Lots of welding and grinding to be done yet to make it all look better .The next step will be to weld a cross brace from left strut tower to right tower to serve as the upper mounting point for the coilovers .The plan is to make multi position mounting plates and weld them to the cross brace .I want lots of adjustability

Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #720, 06-21-2015 07:52 AM
      I should make a trip over and see this progress in person. Do you have a solution to keeping the water, etc from getting into the engine bay? Looks interesting though. I hope to get a ride in it once you get it all back together and see if I can feel the difference. Now, stop golfing and get back to the Fiero! Lol, just kidding.

[This message has been edited by Lunatic (edited 06-21-2015).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #721, 06-21-2015 02:02 PM
      Thanks for the reply , I was just catching up on your thread .Looking good! My hope for keeping water out is to use most of the inner fender liner .It looks like I can just cut an opening for the shock and arms to go through .After I get the shock mounting set up done , I can see what I have room for .There is going to be a lot of sheet metal boxing up to do so maybe I will be able to make some splash shields too . Everytime I work on this car I am amazed at how much dirt and gravel I pull out of the lower cradle .Wish there was a way to keep that stuff out .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #722, 09-18-2015 06:07 PM
      Built a new shed this summer :This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view. big enough (22' X 32' X 13 high ) to hold all the toys ...back at the fiero soon .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #723, 10-13-2015 11:18 PM
      Getting some work done again .Tonight I welded in the cross brace that will be the base for the upper coilover mounts .I am also going to weld a mount on the brace for the upper motor mount , as I do not have room for the old frame any more .Now I am at the stage where the cradle is going to have to go in and out multiple times so I can check clearances and decide on a new charge pipe and exhaust design .Time wasting but better in the long run . No pics , camera wont download to my computer right now .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #724, 10-17-2015 10:22 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #725, 10-17-2015 10:24 PM
     

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #726, 10-17-2015 10:29 PM
     
Back on its feet again .Still lots of stuff to do to the worlds first stock wheelbase rear SLA suspension Fiero .As far as I know anyway .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #727, 10-22-2015 10:39 PM
      New upper motor mount .I had to weld in more bracing at the bottom rail to stop it from swaying but it is really stiff now .Lighter than the old mount and takes up less room .Used a part of the old Held bumpsteer kit .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #728, 11-03-2015 10:58 PM
      Putting the cradle in again .I have cleaned up a lot of the plumbing rats nest and got rid of a lot of extra wiring .I have ordered all the pieces I need to make a new exhaust and intake and charge piping .Aluminum pipe will replace the stainless steel in the old intake and charge piping , and I am going with a smaller diameter in order to get quicker spool up and hopefully more torque in the lower revs .The exhaust is going to be smaller diameter as well , I know that will not be an improvement but it will be easier to install with less clearance issues .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #729, 11-03-2015 11:02 PM
      This stuff is called Hushmat , I am hoping it works similar to Dynamat .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #730, 11-03-2015 11:05 PM
      Here is the bumpstop installed in the coilover .This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 11-03-2015).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #731, 11-15-2015 06:11 PM
      The suspension is now basically done .I have been busy relocating and mounting the clutcth hydraulics and the wiring and mocking up the new charge piping and intake .When i was cutting the frame at the start of this project , i managed to cut the F23 hydraulic line .I was going to get a new one , but I had a compresion fitting handy .5/16 with a nylon ring fit perfectly .This also gives me an easy way to make a fitting to get rid of my two slave cylinders if I want.some pics :

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #732, 11-15-2015 06:15 PM
      Fuse panel and clutch hydraulics are where the fiero evap used to be .My new cavalier evap canister is mounted on the firewall .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #733, 11-15-2015 07:06 PM
      Starting to make the new charge and intake piping .The air filter will end up over the transaxle but under the rear hood away from the rain . The charge piping is going down under and follow the routing that the OEM exhaust takes .The intercooler is going to be where the stock cat used to be , and then the pipe will go up to the intake . Quite a bit longer , but I was tired of having pipes in the way whenever I had to do any work on the car .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #734, 11-15-2015 07:13 PM
      Big box of goodies from frozenboost.com for the new intake and exhaust .All the intake stuff is aluminum , exhaust is stainless .Still another order coming with some nice T clamps and more silicone reducers I need .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 11-18-2015).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #735, 11-18-2015 11:11 PM
      Not a lot of room on the transmission side .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #736, 11-20-2015 04:10 PM
      Starting the new exhaust , going to do a single outlet , no muffler .If it is too noisy I can add a muffler later .All the hangers are going to be on the cradle to make dropping easy .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 11-20-2015).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #737, 11-26-2015 10:21 AM
      Welded up a new tailpipe with a bung for the downstream O2 sensor .If I find this setup to loud then the long pipe will get cut and I will weld in a muffler .Or I may get another coupler collar and make a seperate muffler assembly that can be put in and out whenever I want .These couplers are really slick but they are 25 bucks a pop so I only bought 2 so far .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 11-26-2015).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #738, 11-26-2015 11:31 PM
      Exhaust system with hanger arms on:


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #739, 11-27-2015 09:03 PM
      car is not high enough to get any good shots of the exhaust installed so here are some randoms :

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #740, 11-27-2015 09:07 PM
      After I took these pics , I cut off the excess metal and welded some bumps on to prevent the donut mounts from sliding off .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #741, 12-03-2015 04:47 PM
      Got one of the rear calipers rebuilt .I nearly gave up on it because I broke the bleed screw , but I finally managed to get most of the threads out .I had to drill it out and then drill a 1/8 hole through the remains of the old screw and then make a seat for the new screw with a 1/4 bit .It seems to be holding OK but I wont know for sure until I get it all bled .One of the other calipers looks to be fairly new and in good shape so I am just going to clean it up and use it as is .The little yellow plastic button valve on the piston is a giveaway as to condition .If it is really old , it will be brittle and hard to the touch .Bought the rebuild kits from the fiero store and thanks to Dodgerunners rebuild thread in the how to section .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #742, 12-03-2015 04:50 PM
      I used my old caliper piston compressor and some silicone spray lube to get the piston back in.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #743, 12-07-2015 07:17 PM
      I got the new to me calipers on and connected .Had one leak , turned out a fitting was still just finger tight .The brakes are all bled now and seem to work fine .The parking brake is not working yet as the seized adjuster broke while I was backing it off to be able to join the cables together .So now I am waiting for the 2 short cables and a new adjuster from the fiero store .The cables that are on the car are original and pretty chewed up .


Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #744, 12-08-2015 04:52 AM
      Hey Steve.

Looking good my friend. I can't wait to go for a drive in your car and see how the suspension upgrade works. If I had known earlier that you were going with the SLA on the rear, I would've offered you my C4 suspension. All aluminum and you'd get the bigger 12" brakes as well. Keep up with the good work.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #745, 12-08-2015 11:08 PM
      Thanks .The reason I decided against using something like the corvette suspension was that I did not want to try building a cradle .Using the stock configuration lower control arm gave me an easy starting point even if it doesn't have the best geometry .Not too worried about the stock brakes on the back , I have found that the rear brakes on my car don't contribute that much any way .Very little pad wear and even with the 11" rotors and Willwood calipers you could not lock them up .And that is the way I like my rear brakes to work .This project has taken way more time than I planned on .Once I dropped the cradle I did way more updates than I thought I would .I believe it will be a much improved car so it will all be worth it .I just hate doing what I am doing now :waiting for parts .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #746, 12-15-2015 05:54 PM
      After correcting a big mistake(pistons reversed) and spending hours adjusting and getting rid of leaks etc , I finally have rear brakes that work with working parking brake .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #747, 12-21-2015 04:39 PM
      I have dropped it down on its wheels on the storage dollies to finish the engine compartment wiring and the upper part of the charge piping .Also have to finish the intake and PCV vent hookup .But first a massive garage cleanup , what more fun can you have while on holidays.....


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #748, 12-26-2015 03:25 PM
      Got the garage all cleaned up so now back to working on the car .Elecrtics are reconnected and I fired it up .Sounds like I am going to be able to do without a muffler .Got the passenger side nuts and bolts all tightened down and got the coolant system filled and burped .I have heat again yahoo .Tomorrow I am going to tighten everything on the drivers side and set the toe on both sides .I set the camber at-.1/2 degree on both sides at ride height today .Pretty crowded on the passenger side , you can see the charge pipe and part of the intake plumbing and heater lines.
All tightened up:
This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-26-2015).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #749, 12-31-2015 10:50 AM
      My high tech device for checking bumpsteer .Took both shocks out and then just move the car up and down with a jack under the cradle .No toe change measured with a tape .Does not mean there isn't any , but it is minimal at worse .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #750, 01-05-2016 01:42 PM
      While cleaning up the tops of my strut mounts , I discovered that I had welded the cross brace in too high to get the trunk to close .Not by much but an 1/8" might as well be a mile in this case .I made the brace even with the top of the strut mount hole trying to get the max travel on the coilovers .But that is an eighth too high .Rather than grind it all out and lower it , I notched the bar and boxed it back in .Trunk closes now without a problem .I am a little concerned that the top of the strut tower may flex under load so I may yet add some bracing up there to make up for the metal I have removed .With the way it is shaped and welded the strut tower is one of the strongest areas of the space frame so adding bracing there might be just adding unneeded weight though.


Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #751, 01-08-2016 10:50 AM
      I understand that a shock absorber functions best when perpendicular to the the control arm. If there is no clearance issues, this is ideal. Was there a reason for mounting your shocks on such an angle relative to the upper control arm?

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #752, 01-09-2016 09:14 AM
      Funny , when you mentioned that , I thought , why did I do that? So I had to go take a look and then I remembered .Because of the high mounting point created by the strut stub and adapter , there just is not enough room to get it almost verticle .And there was length of travel issues to consider .The way it is mounted it is at an angle of 20 degrees , not really that bad especially with the coilovers I am using . I have figured out another way to mount the top of the shock to reduce the angle .That would be to make a set of extended top hats like the civic guys like to use .I don't know if there is enough room to do that yet . But I am going to have a serious look at that because it would also add some strength in that area and allow the box up of most of the hole I cut .Thanks for the reply Shayne , have a great weekend .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-09-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #753, 01-09-2016 10:28 AM
      So there is room to run the coilover straight up through the strut mounting hole .It will be simple to make a mount there. There are disadvantages : The shock will have to be mounted with the body down, increasing unsprung weight and putting the adjustment knobs out of reach(tire off to adjust) and total wheel travel will be less than 4 inches .

Kind of reminds me of the Whack-A-Mole arcade game:

I might make a mount in this position and use it for track days.The lower wheel travel wont be a factor on a track .I never have time to get to a track day now but next year I get to retire and I hope to do about 4 days a year .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-09-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #754, 01-09-2016 04:26 PM
      In order to see how solid my upper shock mounts were I took a 5 foot length of heavy wall 1" pipe and put it beside the shock mount and pried with the pipe hitting the wall of the trunk .Revealed that the strut hole could be seen moving up and down as I pried on the pipe .So I added this brace :

And it did not make a difference at all as far as I could tell .So I figured I needed something to come up from undrneath:

And that made a huge difference .Now there is 0 flex, I can bend the pipe and nothing moves now .On the other side , I am just adding the lower pipe because of the double layer of steel that I have stitch welded together makes it already fairly stiff .The upper weld looks worse than it is , got a bit of bubble gum going there but underneath it is real solid .Whenever I weld in to a covered space like that , I get flashed a lot and end up with the odd extra blob .I should have cleaned it up with the grinder but no one will see it anyway .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-10-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #755, 01-10-2016 10:39 PM
      I put the post in to the other side and gave it my pipe test and it still flexed .What happens is , without the small beam welded in above the post like I have on the drivers side , the strut tower will tip back and forth .So , I added a a small beam on the passenger side and now both sides are rock solid . The beam is nothing without the post and the post is nothing without the beam in this case . But I am very happy with the results . The coilover mount has to be stable for the shock to work properly . Tomorrow I will put the coilovers back in and then I am going to see about boxing in some of the strut tower and try to fit the inner fender wells .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #756, 01-14-2016 05:37 PM
      Cut and painted some sheetmetal to bridge the outside of the strut tower :

Glued it in place with structural adhesive and rivets :

And now I have the inner fender installed .It only needed a slight trim so it will not interfere with the new control arm .The white stuf you see in the pic is RV caulking .My inners have seen better days and I used the caulking to fill some cracks and holes .Unfortunately , cold weather adhesion is not one of its strong points and I will probably have to do it again when it is warm out .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-14-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #757, 01-18-2016 04:53 PM
      This is the strut tower filler for the other side .It started off as a flat rectangle .I did this one by holding it in place with screws while I hammered the shape out .The drivers side has similar curves but you cant see it in the pics .



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #758, 01-19-2016 10:26 AM
      Strut housing sheet metal painted and glued and screwed in place .I used the big screws cause they are easy and they pull really tight so the glue will bind better .I had a small hole in the trunk sheet metal so I glued and riveted a sheet metal patch there too .You can see a bit of it in the left hand side of the picture .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-19-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #759, 01-20-2016 05:54 PM
      So now the rear suspension is done for now .I may add a sway bar after I do some testing if it needs it .A job I needed to do was to get my reverse gear to work again .Over the last couple of years it got more and more difficult to get it in reverse and when I went to try it recently it would not work at all .My shifter is not stock as most of you know but it gets adjusted the same way.Take the console out and loosen the mount bolts and slide the shifter back and forth untill you find the sweet spot .I had to manually find reverse by disconnecting the rods from the shifter and then put the rods back on after sliding the base of the shifter to suit .But that did not work so I snugged the base plat down and pried it back and forth until I could select reverse .All the while I had the car up on jackstands so I could turn it on and off and see which way the wheels turned to make sure I actually had reverse .Took a couple of hours and now I have to clean the mess and put it back together .It now snicks in to reverse just like a new car .Here is a pic of the shifter and linkage :

This time iran the cables under the transmission .The stock cavalier mounts are used .Stock fiero cables are joined to the rods that go to the shifter :

I put a long bolt in to one of the many threaded holes on the F23 and tie wrapped the cables in place to keep them away from the axle .Running the cables underneath keeps them clear of the exhaust and eliminates some ugly shielding that I had :

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-20-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #760, 01-20-2016 10:42 PM
      Have to work tomorrow and friday so cleaning up the mess will have to wait till Saturday


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #761, 02-10-2016 03:06 PM
      Got my console back together:

While I was in there I cleaned up some old connections I was not happy with and got rid of more unneeded wires .Got my air to water intercooler installed and working again:

and the last big job I am doing before spring is hooking the water meth injection back up .

When I took the system apart , it was not working .I found a hole in the line that goes from the pump to the throttle body .This was caused by the pump being above the exhaust manifold .I have a vent there , but there was still too much heat .So I am relocating the pump to the front trunk .Most of the wiring is done ,I just need to plumb the pump and mount the controller on the bottom of the trunk lid near the throttle body (low heat area).And install my air filter , and bleed the front brakes .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 02-10-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #762, 02-15-2016 05:52 PM
      Got the water meth system up and running .Took a couple of tries because I had a bad ground at the pump .The controller is mounted on the underside of the deck lid .Should be easy to get at and not get too hot:

The front trunk is a busy place , need to do a little clean up in there :


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #763, 02-21-2016 04:06 PM
      It has been nice out the last couple of days .

I have the car ready to bounce it around the backyard tomorrow to see if anything bad happens ....

It is going back below freezing tomorrow but not supposed to snow .First time with the trunk and front hood closed in over a year .

I was going to put it in the shed till spring after the test drive but I still need to weld some mounts for the rear vents so it has to go back in the garage again. I do not have a 220 volt outlet for the welder in the shed .I cant take it on the road as I have no insurance or up to date plates on it yet .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #764, 02-22-2016 10:00 AM
      Short test drive around the back yard was a success .Car felt completely normal , no strange noises and nothing let go as far as I could tell .The brakes feel like they need more bleeding , bit of a spongy pedal .That is fine , kind of expected that .I made sure I hit some good bumps , the car had no problems with them .When I bleed the brakes I will have a good look and see if any thing has gone wonky back there . For a car with out a muffler , it is really quiet .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 02-22-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #765, 02-22-2016 06:18 PM
      Put the car in the garage and bled the rear brakes again and now the pedal feels normal again and the brakes are working much better .I did quite a few laps of the backyard over the bumpiest parts I could find and it feels really solid .We have 1.2 acres so there is room to build up a bit of boost and I even did a power slide to see how controllable it would be .It is hard to tell on grass because the wheels dont bite in the best , but I did not notice any rear squat or front dive . I have the mounts set up for the placement of shims to add anti squat geometry but I have not done that yet .I have never had problems with squat or dive on this car ever since I did the ecotec swap .The car is low and fairly light so a minimum of anti dive and anti squat is all that is needed .I expect to do a bit of tuning once I get it on to pavement but that wont happen till spring .Some random picks of the work I did over the last year:

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 02-23-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #766, 02-22-2016 06:28 PM
      hit the wrong button there , here are the pics:




This next shot shows that the camber needs more adjusting , the wheels are not angled the same at full droop:

And back on all 4s again:

Next job is to weld up the mounts for the decklid vents .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #767, 02-23-2016 02:13 PM
      While waiting for some drywall to be delivered , I made up and welded the brackets for the rear vents .I also got them painted .I had to hang out in the garage waiting for the truck to show to make sure he didnt just dump it in the driveway .So I had time to kill .





wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #768, 02-26-2016 12:08 AM
      I found out recently that Grand Bend Motorplex added a road course last year .They have open lapping days every week .It is about an hour and a half to Grand Bend from here so I hope to get in about 4 days this year .It will be the perfect place to test and tune the new suspension .85.00 a session , sounds pretty reasonable to me .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #769, 03-13-2016 02:54 PM
      As you can see in the last photo , my trunk area needed some sprucing up . Yesterday I removed all the screws and replaced them with pop rivets ,put in some more patches and did some caulking and then covered most of the trunk with Hushmat . I put a double layer over the turbo area .

I am going to try hacking up my OEM carpet to fit .Pretty sure I still have it here somewhere .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #770, 03-16-2016 01:01 PM
      I got renewal stickers for my plates yesterday and put insurance back on. So I have been driving it a bit and everything seems really good .Very stable and nice and neutral .Drove it in the rain today and it stays really planted when I give it stink going around a left hand turn .Doing that before would result in a controllable fishtail as soon as the boost built up .I was a bit disappointed with my brakes when I first drove it around the block , but now that I have got some miles on it the pads are bedding in and it is starting to feel similar to my old setup .After a week or so driving like it is , I am going to set the ride height and the rear camber and then get an alignment .I need new rear tires but I am going to wait till I have everything right before I spend the money on them .

Quad GT (quadgti@gmail.com ) MSG #771, 03-16-2016 09:17 PM
      Been reading your thread, very informative
Any chance you can post a video, just curious what it sounds like

I'm looking for a swap for my DGP IMSA
Still can't decide which way to go
The LS4 is looking good also


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #772, 03-17-2016 06:45 AM
      A video is definitely going to be done as soon as I figure out how to make one .I tried with my iPhone but that did not work out .Thanks for the reply .

Quad GT (quadgti@gmail.com ) MSG #773, 03-17-2016 10:32 AM
      Just post it on youtube and add the link here

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #774, 03-19-2016 12:22 PM
      I am going to get a mount for my I phone and see if I can make a video .I have put 100 km on it so far and I am now playing with the shock settings to get the ride the way I like it . The stiffest settings on the rear shocks was not a good idea but I tried it any way .So harsh it was hurting my lower back .Right now I have both compression and rebound about 8 clicks up from the softest setting and it feels much better .And the car is nice and neutral and I have not noticed any rear squat .I really expected it to need a rear sway bar but so far it does not look necessary . One problem I have found has to do with the cavalier charcoal canister . With it wired in , it is causing the car to stumble badly .Unplug the cable at the cannister and the car runs fine .For some reason the way the fiero tank is plumbed seems to cause a vapour lock or fuel starvation once the test valve on the fuel tank gets closed by the ECM . Too bad , I wanted that to work because that is the only code that gets thrown . Guess I will have to program out that code and be done with it .

Quad GT (quadgti@gmail.com ) MSG #775, 03-20-2016 09:31 AM
      Been reading your thread, very informative
Any chance you can post a video, just curious what it sounds like

I'm looking for a swap for my DGP IMSA
Still can't decide which way to go
The LS4 is looking good also


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #776, 03-20-2016 02:53 PM
      Right now I am happy with the suspension and ready to get it aligned .But the rest of the car has decided to crap out on me .I had an overheating problem that I thought was fixed by getting more fluid in the system but today it did it again .Sqeezing the hoses I can hear glugging noises so hopefully it just has more air in it . And according to a scan I just did , both of my O2 sensors are bad .One I knew might not be good because it is a universal unit but the other is the OEM unit . In Canada , O2 sensors are like gold .Over 250.00 for the pair .So a road trip to Port Huron MI might happen soon . But not in the fiero .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 03-20-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #777, 03-20-2016 04:17 PM
      There was more air in the cooling system .Seems like it takes next to nothing to stop the flow .This time I took off the fitting that sits on top of the fluid outlet on the engine .It is the highest point in the system and sends coolant to the OEM cavalier overflow bottle .I used a small funnel and managed to get about a litre of demin water in there .Now the coolant is flowing to the rad and it is back to running at 90C .I idled the car for 15 minutes and no problems .

Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #778, 03-20-2016 05:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

And according to a scan I just did , both of my O2 sensors are bad .One I knew might not be good because it is a universal unit but the other is the OEM unit . In Canada , O2 sensors are like gold .



Hey Steve.

Glad you got the car back on the road. I have two spare upstream O2 sensors. I'll mail them to you if you like, just let me know.

Shayne



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #779, 03-20-2016 06:20 PM
      That would be great .I took the upstream one off and I found the problem : I managed to squash the metal that surrounds the wires into the wires , shorting them out .Probably happened when i took the old exhaust off .I am going to see if I can bend it away from the wires .Then check for a blown fuse .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 03-20-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #780, 03-21-2016 11:57 AM
      I could not fix the O2 sensor that was damaged so for now I have a similar unt in that I had laying around .Seems to work but it is still throwing a code .I will use it till i get the one that Lunatic is sending me .I have a new OEM style downstream O2 sensor coming this afternoon .Scans say that one is doing nothing .Meanwhile I had to change out a T fitting on the coolant line to the turbo .Thats where my coolant has been disappearing from .And my dashboard lights have quit on me .That should be just a disconnected wire but I will have to take the instrument cluster apart to find it . Can't drive it right now anyway , our nice weather has left us and it is snowing again .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 03-31-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #781, 03-31-2016 12:10 AM
      I put in the new downstream unit and now I am code free .I got the O2 sensor that member Lunatic sent me ( thanks Shayne ) but I am going to just keep it as a spare for now since the other one that I put in seems fine .So I have had some seat time and so far so good .I managed to leave the parking lights on and kill the battery . I charged it up yesterday then today it seemed to have lost its charge and would not start . Charged it for 4 hours and it did it again but I could hear all the fans running and I shoved down hard on the clutch and then it started right up .The stupid clutch safety switch is on its last legs .Tomorrow it will be getting the bypass treatment-cut , strip and wirenut together .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #782, 04-15-2016 01:17 PM
      Solved a couple of problems today .As I mentioned earier , the car ran rough whenever I plugged in the wires to the purge canister .After I saw my 2 damaged O2 sensors , I had a suspicion that the shorted out O2 sensor wires were interfering with the operation of the evap valves .After fixing the O2 sensor problem , I still had the cannister disconnected and yesterday it threw the evap system fault code .So I cleared the code and plugged in the canister and it runs normally and no longer throws the code .
The other problem was my boost controller was not working .Boost was hitting 16 psi and popping open the blow off valve .I found a leak in the tubing to the controller . I took the controller out of the circuit to be safe and because I need some of the right tubing . So now max boost is 8 psi and I am happy with that .
Still trying to get it in for an allignment , my usual shop said Tuesday sometime .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 04-15-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #783, 04-25-2016 10:37 AM
      Took the rear wheels off to inspect things .700 KM since the suspension mods were done .I saw no problems at all .Except some pieces could still use a coat of paint ..


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #784, 04-25-2016 08:11 PM
      Got the car aligned today .Runs much straighter now but while it was on the rack we discovered what was causing twitchyness in the front end .I knew something was sloppy because I could pull on the passenger front tire and get about 3/8" of movement on the passenger side .I thought it would be a tie rod end so I brought some new ones to the shop but it was upper arm bushings .Replaced them when I got home and no more twitch .I found the magic setting for a smooth ride - 2 above minimum compression setting and midway for rebound . But that setting for good cornering - forget it .The best setting i have found for blasting tight corners is + 12 compression and +9 rebound .Digs right and I can change direction in a heartbeat .But hurts the back on our bumpy roads .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 04-26-2016).]

Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #785, 04-26-2016 05:52 AM
      Hey Steve.

I would consider calling your modifications a success. It's good that it all worked out and that you're putting miles on the car. I'll have to pop in sometime and check it out.

Shayne


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #786, 04-26-2016 11:30 AM
      Thanks Shayne drop around when you are up next , shoot me an email to make sure I will be home .
I consider the work I have done a success for sure .Too bad it was an arm bushing that was the problem , now that I have that fixed the allignment is off a bit now .Pulls to the left slightly .Things I have figured out so far :
There is no need to add more anti squat geometry to the upper arms .The car does not squat at all .
The stock rear brakes are working really well now that they are nicely bedded in .And I really like having a working park brake .
I think I want to try a 400 lb spring .I think that would give a better ride without having to use strange shock settings .
Since I need another allignment any way , I am going to play around with the height of the upper A arm mounts just to see what works best .
There is no end to the amount of tuning you can do to a setup like this .That is what I really like about it .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #787, 05-01-2016 04:46 PM
      While fixing the upper arm bushings , I found the inner sleeves were 1/2" instead of 12 MM so I changed them out for the right size.

I have been tuning the suspension .I did not like how hard it felt , so I tried a 350 lb spring .It is only 7" long so I ran out of adjustment just to get it close to where I had the ride height .
But the funny thing was , it made no difference at all in how the car rode .I realized I had the car too low and I was hitting the bump stops as I bounced over the bumps .I dont know why I set it up this way , that is not how I designed it .So I put the 450 lb springs back on and while I was at it raised up the inner pivot points of the upper arms .Even with the higher ride height , they had too much downward angle to centre .This causes huge variations in the instant centre and can lead to stability problems .Stability was not a problem , but I realized that was probably because the suspension was not moving up and down much .So I shimmed the arms and adjusted the camber with the eccentrics (of course throwing my allignment off some more ) This is what the arm mounts look like now:

Took it for a ride and it is now working the way I always hoped it would .Riding on rubber bump stops does not give a smooth ride it turns out . The ride is now still on the stiff side , but it is a ride I can live with on a long trip where before a 25 mile trip was about all you wanted to do .And I have not even tuned the shock settings yet .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #788, 05-11-2016 09:22 PM
      Spent about 4 hours setting the camber on the rear now that I have the ride height where I want it .I found a spot in the garage where the floor is dead level and parked the rear wheels right there .With the change in ride height came unwanted positive camber of .5 on the left side and almost 1 on the right .After a lot of wheel off wheel on adjustments , I now have about -.4 degrees on both sides .Close enough to my target of .5 negative camber .Here is a view of the ride heights from the sides :


I am going to put about 500 km on it before I get it aligned this time to let the springs sag if they are going too .That way I can adjust the camber again myself if its needed .Alignments are much cheaper if they do not have to take your wheels off .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 05-16-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #789, 05-16-2016 06:33 PM
      Had to put a new boost controller on .I put the old one back on thinking a leak in the referance line was causing it to let the boost go sky high .Apparently not , as I was merging with traffic the boost got high enough to cause the blow off valve to open and the ECM to cut the timing and go in to limp mode for about 3 seconds .Got to love modern electronics , saved my engine from any damage .This time I bought a Vibrant brand controller because a store in Mississauga had them in stock .In the instructions it said to keep it away from the exhaust heat area and that is where the old one was close to .Maybe that is why it failed . So I put this one on a stand off at the drivers side of the valve cover .Seems to work , with it in the lowest setting I get 10 PSI max boost .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #790, 06-06-2016 08:04 PM
      Had to replace one of the axle seals at the transmission today .Priced a new one online on one of the CDN sites and they wanted 29.00 .We have a small autoparts store in downtown Kincardine(Spikes) and they got me one for 11.00 .plus tax .One of the nice things about my rear suspension is I can get the axle out of the tranny by just taking out 2 bolts and letting the spindle flop outwards .Nothing to realign after , just push the axle back in and bolt the spindle back on .




In the above pic you can see the socket I used to seat the new seal .

The timken part # for other F23 users .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #791, 06-08-2016 08:30 PM
      Today I got another allignment done now that I have the ride height and camber where I thought I wanted it .But when we got the car on the rack , the numbers I thought I had were not there .The left rear was only at - .4 degrees and the right was at - 1.1 degrees .I should have adjusted both sides but we managed to get the left to -.8 degrees so I called it close enough .I wanted about -.8 on both sides but it is close enough for this year anyway .The front left has slightly less negative camber than the right side as well but it is close enough because over the winter I am going to modify the rear upper arm mounts to make them stronger and get rid of the shims .And to get a bit more adjustability as far as camber is concerned .The car feels really good over our bumpy roads now and the only other thing I am going to try this year is a lighter (350 lb.) rear spring .I think it will make an improvement in the ride as the 450 lb springs really do not let the wheels move up and down a lot . The ride is not terrible but it rode a lot smoother with 350 lb springs .The reason I cant get the camber on the left rear where I want it:

I have simply run out of room .But if I make a new mount that rotates the arm mounting bar 90 degrees and is on the wheel side of the old mounting arms, I can get the arm where I want it and have slotted holes for up and down movement .Getting rid of the shims will mean a different way to fine tune camber .Since I have room between the ball joint and tires:

I can use 2 eccentric bolts on the stub adapters to adjust camber .I new starting out that the first try was not going to be the final design .For me , I always try something and then more ideas develop while fine tuning things .I am happy with the way it works , but now I can make it better .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #792, 06-11-2016 04:36 PM
      I got some 10" X 350 lb springs and put them on today .I wanted 9" springs but Summitt was out of stock .My shocks are designed to use 9 or 10" springs but it is ackward to put on 10" springs because you have to compress the spring about 1/2" to get the keeper collar in place .A large ball joint pickle fork did the trick after fighting with a set of spring compressors for about 10 minutes .Not enough room between the shock body and the spring to get the spring compresors to work .Anyway , the 350 lb springs made a world of difference .Amazing how much better a suspension works when it can actually move up and down . I really thought the 450 lb spring would be a good fit , but it just did not let the suspension move enough .It is now smoother , quieter and still corners really well .So that is all I am going to do for this season , time to just drive the car and enjoy it .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #793, 06-15-2016 10:36 AM
      Ever since I put the car back on the road I have been having problems with boost control . I thought I had it licked with the new boost controller , but the max boost started climbing again .I disconnected the boost controller and that seemed to drop it a bit but within about 20 miles of driving , it was going north of 10 PSI .That level is not too bad but it was causing timing reduction and the car would not develop any power above 6000 RPM in 3rd gear .I thought maybe it was high intake temps because of where my air fiter was so I did this:

Went for a short ride and did not seem to make a difference except the boost jumped up to 12 PSI .So I figured the culprit had to be my waste gate actuator .I crawled under the car and hooked a tube directly to the air signal tube and put 10 PSI from my air compressor in to the tube and all i got was a small opening of the waste gate and a lot of hissing .Took the actuator off and found a corosion hole right in the metal body .What was happening was the hole was getting bigger all the time .I adapted the actuator from my old turbo and hooked everything back together and with the controller set to 0 I have a 6 PSI max .I hooked up the laptop and went for a drive and everything was good but I was getting 6 degrees of KR . I remembered that I had turned the water meth injection way down thinking the problem was too much spray .Set the controller to 4 to 10 PSI range and my KR dropped to 0 .Shows how effective water meth is on a turbo car .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #794, 06-22-2016 07:04 PM
      I drove the car down to the SVRA races last thursday and then back on sunday .I 69 between Pt Huron and Lansing MI was a real torture test for the new rear suspension .There is a long stretch that can be best described as shallow moguls .Huge up and down mvement as you hit the little crests in the concrete .Everything held up really well but it did expose some deflection movement of the rear wheels .When I hit a big bump doing highway speeds , it causes the load to be transferred to the rear control arm bushing that then compresses and causes the deflection .The deflection does not cause any loss of control , just a bit of squirming that you can feel .So I need to figure out how to eliminate the deflection .I could modify the lower controlarms to use rod ends but that is a lot of work and I do not want the extra noise .I realized then that it will be easy to make a new link to go from the spindle bracket directly to the frame .This arm will have a rod end at each end and a swedged tube similar to the existing link .The inner mount will go here:

Using a rod end similar to this:

The other thing I have to do is redo my turbo tuning .The wastegate I now have on was supposed to give a max of 6 psi but it is putting out 10 PSI .It is controlling at that level unlike the old wastegate with the hole in it .The new exhaust and intake is causing a lot higher flow of air and now in third gear at RPM above 6000 with the throttle wide open , the power drops off rapidly.Do the same thing with 3/4 throttle and power is strong right up to 7K .So I cant push enough fuel to use full throttle in third gear .I have some 42 lb injectors to put on and some work with HP tuning should fix this problem .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 06-22-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #795, 06-28-2016 09:14 PM
      Got my new swedged tubes and rod ends from speedway motors today .I decided to try it on the drivers side and so far so good .


It is a bit of a hack job at the moment but I will clean everything up and weld in a vertical brace next winter .It really will be just for looks , that area is really strong even hacked up like it is .Took it for a ride and you can feel how planted the drivers side is compared to the passenger side .You can feel the back end squirm when the right rear tire hits a big bump but nothing when the drivers side hits a large bump .This was so easy to do , I wish I had thought of it in the first place . It took less than an hour to do the drivers side .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 06-28-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #796, 07-05-2016 08:57 PM
      I was looking at the way the coilover angle was and I thought that was an area that could be greatly improved . Member Lunatic suggested a more upright position for the coilover and while I agreed with him at the time I did not think it would be worth the work .After modifying the tie rods , I decided to go ahead and move the upper mounts .The old angle caused a lack of freedom of movement .If I tried to bounce the car by pushing down on it ,about a half inch of movement was all I could get .With the new perchs I can bounce it up and down and see the coilover moving while I do it. To get the same ride height I also backed off the spring preload by over an inch .While I was doing the changes I noticed that the ball joint was binding against the shock body on the passenger side .Probably why the passenger side was never as smooth .A little clearencing of the ball joint hosing solved that problem .So here is what it looks like now:



And I figured out that my fueling problems are being caused by the fuel pump .Again .It is starting to do the odd stumble like it did the last time it failed .Did a little research and I found this pump :

Supposedly about double the flow that I need and the right pressure .Very similar in size to the old pump so I am going to try to put it into the OEM housing that I kept when the first pump failed .And this time I will finally get my fuel guage to work properly .I hate dropping the tank .


Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #797, 07-06-2016 04:15 PM
      Hey Steve.

Thanks for the part number of the axle seal a while back. I'm going to need to get some soon. I see that you bought some swedge tubes and rod ends. I offered you some for free the last time you were here. Once you get it dialed in and the fuel pump replaced, I'll try to make a special trip out there. I'd like to check out all the progress and new parts in person. Gotta run, I have some tubing to cut this afternoon.

PS-We all hate dropping the fuel tank.

[This message has been edited by Lunatic (edited 07-06-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #798, 07-06-2016 05:51 PM
      I should have taken you up on those tubes and ends .These are only 9" long though and I got the PTFE lined rod ends hoping they will last a long time .Good to here from you Shayne .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #799, 07-12-2016 11:21 AM
      So it has been a lot of drive and change in my quest to make the suspension work and feel like it came with the car .Moving the coilovers vertical made a huge improvement .But on larger bumps the car felt like it was bouncing over the bump instead of absorbing it for lack of a better term .And it really was not responding to changes in the shock settings .I drove the back of the car up on ramps and I crawled underneath and looked it all over with my flex handle mirror .I found marks where the ball joint housing was getting jammed against the strut adapters .I took the adapters off and ground off about 1/8" off the coilover mounting arms down near the ball joint mount .

I also took a little off the ball joint mount housing as it was still tagging the coilover:

This slight mod made all the difference . I now can drive and not even think about what is going on with the suspension .It is smooth and handles all the bumps now .And I can set the shocks and feel the changes .Right now , I am at setting 9 for both compresion and rebound at all 4 corners and it feels really good .Anything above 5 was brutal before .This was the breakthrough I have been looking for .The next step will be to make nicer upper arm mounts .I am going to use the old coilover mounts for a bolt in brace to go to the new arm mounts .Then I might even paint everything .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 07-25-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #800, 07-13-2016 11:01 PM
      My first attempt at a video with my new Gopro .If you are interested in what kind of sound the car produces.
short version https://youtu.be/9Oo8CZ8cBHs

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 07-14-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #801, 07-26-2016 03:40 AM
      So I put in the new fuel pump .The occasional stumble is gone , but it still loses power above 6100 rpm .Fuel guage still does not work , but I know why now .I have some pics I will post later to explain what is going on .I decided to try my bigger injectors , still no change .I had to change the injector constant and do a rewrite with my HP tuners so I ran a scan with my laptop to see what is happening .At anything above 6100 rpm , the tach display flashes red and the fuel gets partly cut ,kind of a soft landing that prevents any more acceleration .Somehow , the new version of HP tuners does not allow that parameter to change .And even though I tuned a 7000 Rpm fuel cutoff when I originally tuned the car , as soon as I hooked up the laptop to the car with the new version , it reverted to factory values for fuel cutoff and the speed limiter is as far as I can tell back to about 108 mph .I am emailing back and forth to find a solution but no luck so far .They were not aware of this problem .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #802, 08-09-2016 11:25 PM
      My tuning woes continue .The fuel cutoff is fine , there is something else wrong and I have not been able to figure it out . I have changed my tune a lot from what it was , actually downloaded one of my old tunes out of the repository and started over , but I am still having trouble with WOT above 6000 rpm .Everything else is better , high gear low rpm rollons are much stronger now and it comes out of the hole great .But above 6000 in WOT , it still loses power until I back off the throttle .I am starting to think my water meth system is not spraying .Getting about 8 degees of KR when the power drops off .I have most of thursday off to figure it out , but gone for the weekend .On the bright side , I have nothing to complain about with my new suspension . I just do not remember having so much trouble tuning before .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 08-21-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #803, 08-21-2016 08:58 PM
      I have run a lot of scans , backed off the timing at high RPM and nothing seems to help : still getting about 8 degrees of KR at WOT around 6300 RPM .I took the charge pipe off at the throttle body to check the water meth and it is spraying fine .I am beginning to suspect I am getting false knock sensing .A lot of people on ecotec.com had this problem when they went to poly motor mounts . And I now have a home made upper poly motor mount . I am going to see if I can add a bit of rubber in there to see if it changes anything .In the meantime , I am running with a 6300 RPM rev limit . The car is running very strong , the reason I like a 7000 limit is it saves a shift when I do a 0-60 run , resuting in a faster time . It probably would not affect the 1/4 time , but I have never been to a strip with this car so I would not know .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #804, 09-07-2016 11:42 AM
      Still playing around with the tuning .I have not had a chance to do anything with the motor mount , but I am making some progress in understanding what is happening .I have been trying to get a commanded Power Enrich AFR of 11 during high boost high rpm mode .The most it will give me is 11.5 , even though right now I have the tables set to 10 . I think I need a commanded value of 11 to get rid of the knock if it isn't false knock .There are modifier tables and I changed some of them and still no change in the PE AFR . And I managed to lower the KR but now the car does not run as strong except under WOT .So now I have to undo some of the things I changed to get back to where I was .I put the bigger HX for the air to water charge cooler back on but that had very little affect , slight decrease in IAT . I am going to add a brace to the motor mount and see how that works .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 09-07-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #805, 09-07-2016 10:38 PM
      Made the brace today , no time to try it out though .Paint a little rough , just wanted it not to rust for now .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #806, 09-12-2016 01:54 PM
      The brace did not seem to make an improvement in the knock problem .It does make it less prone to movement so I still consider it an improvement . My lack of knowledge of tuning is a problem , but I am doing a lot of research and making slow progress .I found out that on my ECM that when any knock is detected , it immediately changes to the Low Octane spark tables .This caused power to fall right off at about 6100 RPM . I had left all the LO tables alone , thinking they were irrelevant . So I rewrote those tables in the high RPM areas and that made a decent improvement .Also the VE offset seems to be critical .Stock seemed to be 20% , I have tried 40 % and then back to 20% and now I am running 45% .Higher values make the car smoother and keep LTFT and STFT in the green range .I noticed on one tune , the VE offset was 60 % . I may try that figure and if it does not help , go back down to 45 % .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #807, 10-03-2016 11:08 PM
      I have done a lot of tuning and I have come to the conclusion that the power drop off at 6300 is caused by my new 2" exhaust setup .The give away was I did a scan with the PE shut off and got the same results as with it on .I started looking at the KR and realized it really was not that bad compared to older scans. So I am pretty sure that my 2" piping is at least 1/4" to small .The 20G turbo is getting strangled by the low flow of the 2" system .I put the smaller piping in to promote low end response ( and it did ) but I did not realize how much it would affect the higher revs .I thought the blow off valve was leaking but a new one did nothing .Bumping up the boost did nothing as well . So , I am going to make a new 2.5 " exhaust .Should not cost much , I can salvage most of it from my old exhaust and I have a ton of extra pipe bends .I will need a new flex pipe , I don't have another short 2.5" laying around .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #808, 10-12-2016 01:25 PM
      Yesterday I looked around the garage and came up with enough bits and pieces to cobble together a new 2.5" exhaust system .The only thing I had to buy was a short flex pipe , 22.00 from Spikes Auto Parts and he had it in stock .I had the day off so I started at 8:30 am and other than lunch I worked straight through and had it done by 7:00 pm .Not a thing of beauty , I had to weld 3 short straight pipes together to make the cat back pipe but it works and only one leak in a spot that does not matter .And it has solved my lack of power above 6300 rpm - it now revs and pulls really strong right up to the 7000 rpm redline I have it set at .The welds are pretty rough , I kept blowing holes in the thin stainless pipe I used .


I did not get the angle on the tail pipe right , something I will fix with a vband coupler when I can pick one up:

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 10-12-2016).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #809, 10-13-2016 02:38 PM
      New 4.12 sq " area dual piston willwood calipers .Hoping the reduction in area from the old single 2.5" diameter piston (4.9 sq ") will end my right front lockup problems .Other than stock ,every brake setup I have used has had right front lockup .Still stops straight and in short distances , but the smoke show coming from the right front tire is beyond annoying .
here are a few pics of the new calipers , these are Willwood #120-11872-RD



If these don't work , I am going to gut the proportion valve and install a bias valve going to the rear brakes .I am going to have a collection of Willwoods to sell in the mall soon .Now that I have solved my engine tuning problems , I can concentrate on brakes and chassis tuning .


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #810, 10-16-2016 04:06 PM
      These calipers have made a big improvement . Stopping much better .But now both fronts lock up when you really jump on the brakes .Not locking up completely , a lot less smoke and good that both fronts are now doing the same thing . I am looking in to new stickier tires in slightly bigger sizes .Going to 215/55/r16 in the front and 255/50/16 in the back .This will maintain the width spread of 40 that I have now that works really well .I would like to get another set of Kumhos but they no longer make the same tire as I have now in the sizes I need .So far , the BFG G-Force Sport Comp- 2 seem to be the only Hi-Po summer tire that will do the job in my sizes .And it has great reviews . Most MFR's have very little in a 16" wheel size in a summer only tire .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #811, 10-17-2016 07:42 PM
      I decided not to get the new tires till next spring .I will be lucky to get a month of driving on them before it gets too cold to drive summer tires .Too bad but it just does not make sense right now .I have ordered a Wilwood (260-11179) adjustable proportion valve to replace the stock prop valve with .Read the spec sheets and it will allow up to 50/50 front/rear brake bias .Fully adjustable with a knob on top , 2 inlets and 2 front outlets and 1 rear outlet . Very hopeful this will let me get rid of the front lockup once and for all .Hopefully here on Thursday .

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 10-17-2016).]

Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #812, 10-20-2016 11:37 AM
      I admire your perseverance to stay with this project for as long as you did and meet the challenge. There are some clever work-arounds and some interesting solutions but many kudos; you did accomplish a difficult swap. It seems that you while you proved that the Ecotec Fiero swap is certainly doable; if it were easier, we might see more Ecotec swaps. Its an excellent engine choice just begging for a plug and play solution but I did notice that P & P solutions in the form of a harness and PCM are available online for some Ecotecs and Roger Thelin still makes the mount swap parts. If you come down to Fieros at Carlisle in 2017 I would love to see your swap.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #813, 10-20-2016 06:43 PM
      Thanks for the reply Dennis .This is a long thread full of all my success and failures but one thing most people don't realize is that when I first got this swap running , it only took 6 weeks to get it on the road .I just continue to change things because this is a hobby car and I hope to someday to get it exactly the way I want it . I think I have only not driven the car for 2 summers out of the last 10 .A lot of the stuff I have been doing to the car lately really do not have to do with being ecotec powered , it is just easier for me to continue to add to the thread .I hope to have time after I retire (this coming March) to go to a lot of Fiero related events and Carlisle will be one of them .

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #814, 05-08-2017 08:56 PM
      I have been driving the Fiero and tuning the suspension for about 3 weeks now. At the end of last season I made changes to the brakes and I am very happy with the way they came out. So I have been concentrating on the rear suspension, the latest change being dropping all the way down to 200 lb. 10" springs in the rear of the car.I started last year with 450 lb 9" springs, then went to 350 lb 10" springs because the 450's just seemed too stiff. Keep in mind when I still had struts on the car it had 350 lb 12" springs on it. I always thought that gave more body roll than I like so when I changed the suspension, I went with the heavier springs. Even with the 350's it still seemed too stiff. I would stand in the trunk and bounce the car up and down and it seemed like it was barely moving. So rather than order a 300lb set of springs I decided to try the 200lb 10" springs I had laying around from my dead in the water Locost build. My logic was to start with these springs and then go up in weight from there if needed. To my surprise these turned out to be what I needed. I set up the ride height and decided to try the shocks on the stiffest setting, compression and rebound. I rode about 5 miles like that and then stopped every 5 miles and backed them down 2 clicks at a time until I had a comfortable ride. Each knob has 18 settings and I ended up at about +10 for compression and +7 for rebound. At the stiffest settings the ride was back spasm inducing harsh. The body roll stayed the same as it was with the stiffer springs, something I thought would not be possible. The car corners flat and really tracks around a corner. The overall ride is not as good as my old strut suspension, simply not as smooth over bumpy roads. But that is a trade off I can live with.I hope to finally get to a track day this year to see how it works when I really push it.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #815, 05-14-2017 11:50 PM
      I decided to try the minimum settings on the rear coilovers. I had set them to the point that I thought was a good compromise between harshness and cornering force but I wanted to see what the softest settings would be like. On the lowest settings, it rides like a Fiero with brand new monroe shocks on it. Maybe QA1 has a forum for these shocks where I could learn all about how they work but I have been just working blind here. I have learned that the lowest settings basically replicate what a factory stock shock gives you. Right now my Fiero is smoother than my wifes loaded hardtop convertible 2012 Miata.The only time I am going to crank the settings up will be when I go to a track day.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 05-14-2017).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #816, 07-20-2017 01:11 PM
      I noticed that the lower ball joint on the rear passenger side had seen better days so I changed it out. That threw the alignment out of wack , and then I started noticing some squirming in the back that seemed to be getting worse. I took both wheels off to tighten and check everything and then I realized the upper control arm bushing nuts needed to be tightened up. I had left them a little on the loose side while I built the new tie rods so I could move it all up and down by hand. They are locking nuts so no danger of falling off but the bushings got a little sloppy, hence the squirming. Tightened the nuts up and that problem went away.
I did an alignment using a 4' straight edge and a tape measure and it looks like I have it close enough, the steering wheel is centred again. I am waiting to get my new tires before I pay for another alignment. I also increased tire pressure to 42 rear and 40 front to reduce sidewall flexing. Max is 51 PSI for these tires so lots of room there.
Today I am taking the car to Grand Bend Raceway for road course lapping. If it goes well, then I am going to leave the setup basically the same but make a proper upper mount setup with a built in adjustment system and arms with better bushings. If things do not go as expected, then I have a lot of ideas for a redesign of the upper arm system. The way it is working now, I am expecting good things at the track.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #817, 07-22-2017 10:04 AM
      At the track:

The layout was the screaming alien. Track is part of the Grand Bend airport.


I was a little surprised at the speed of the cars in the group I went out with. These guys are serious track day people. For the first 4 laps or so I just tried to get faster and stay out of everyones way. So I got passed. A lot ! Then I got it figured out and I managed to stay in front of some of the cars. My old Kumho tires were howling for mercy on every turn so I was sadly lacking grip compared to everyone else. A lot of the cars were running racing tires and the rest with newer style high performance summer tires. The track was also quite a bit longer and higher speed than I was expecting.
I only went out for one 15 minute session. The airport was expecting some landings so they were not allowing a cool down lap. The car ran slightly hotter than normal on the track but nothing high enough to be concerned about. I should have cooled down with a slow drive in to Grand Bend and back, instead I just did a slow lap of the pits and that was not enough. About a minute after I parked, a plastic heater hose T developed a hole and I lost about a 1/2 gallon of coolant. Before leaving for the track I decided to take some spare fittings, hose and some clamps and a set of tools. And a gallon of demin water. I have never trusted the fittings I used so better safe than sorry. So after letting things cool down my wife and I changed out the melted fitting with the hopefully better fitting we had. And then after about 1/2 hour of filling and burping we were on our way home.
I learned that to run this track my springs are too light. Way too much body roll. My tires suck but I new that already. My suspension works really well, no surprises there.The car is just as neutral on the track as the street. When I got a bit loose it was usually the whole car sliding, not the rear fishtailing or a front end plow. Very easy to just brake or back off the throttle and get the car back on line. I never put a wheel off the track. I ran with the shocks set at mid position. The plan was to start there and change to stiffer settings every session. But because of the coolant leak I did not get to see how much affect adjusting the shocks would have on body roll.
The brakes worked well, I could really stomp on them and not have lockup. And they stopped really well, as I found out when I stayed on the gas too long on the main straight. I was smelling the pads by the end of the session so maybe some race pads would be a good idea.
I am going to put on the heavier springs I have. Might get a set of race tires instead of buying BFG's. Just get hi performance all season tires for the street. And check out what better pads are available.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-29-2017).]

zkhennings MSG #818, 08-09-2017 11:06 AM
      Very cool work! I love my Bridgestone Potenza S04 Pole Positions, they are an ultra summer tire and have awesome grip, I think the only other summer tire that outgrips them is the Michelin Pilot Super Sports, but I went with the Bridgestones because they have AMAZING wet grip, as in I have never lost traction in the rain no matter how hard I drive.

http://www.caranddriver.com...pole-position-page-9

I have them on my WRX for almost 30,000 miles and they have plenty of life left. I have dedicated snow tires and rims for the winter.

I have had good luck with both Hawk and EBC pads in the past, they all make a buttload of dust no matter what reviews say. I use Hawk HPS pads (high performance street).

Also something that can improve track braking is using some DOT 5.1 fluid, Bosch makes some that is readily available at autoparts stores. Flush your system using that and then the brake fluid can take much more heat without degrading.

Some adjustable swaybars are also a great choice for tuning the turn in at the track, and don't forget how much affect altering alignment and also setting cross weights can make! Find a buddy with a set of racing scales to get your cross weights set up correctly.

Zach


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #819, 08-13-2017 11:20 PM
      Thanks for the comments and tips for setup. I have not had time to do anything to the car but I hope to have a bit of a plan in place soon. Decided to change the springs out first and see how that works and go from there. Hope to get another track day in this month.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #820, 08-24-2017 11:42 PM
      I might be able to make it out to one more track day so making a few changes. I installed the 10" by 350 lb springs into the rear coil overs and put the 450 lb by 9" springs into the front coil overs. While I had the rear springs out I installed some rod end bushings in to the shock mounts. These take care of the misallignment between the shock mounts. Better freedom of movement.

One thing I have not been happy with is the rear camber adjustment with the present setup. I cant get enough negative camber the way it is, not enough room between the shift linkage. I thought about making a different upper ball joint mount and new control arms but could not come up with anything that did not entail a ton of work. I wanted the ball joint lower and further out to reduce the kingpin inclination.Where the ball joint is now I cant put bigger tires on because they would rub against the bj housing. So I have decided to experiment with two upper links per side. I got some aircraft rod ends made by Radial Bearing Corp and combined them with swedged tubes and some delrin bushings I have had for a while now:

These will be mounted with frame tabs on the chassis for the delrin ends and the rod ends will be mounted by a long 5/8" grade 8 bolt directly on either side of the strut stub. The chassis mounts will be further outboard than they are now and the rod ends will be down and further away from the frame, lessening the kingpin angle and giving the tire clearance I am looking for.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #821, 08-25-2017 02:19 PM
      The new upper arms will sit in this general vicinity:

I was hoping to weld the tabs in place without carving off the old arm mounts but no such luck. And the bolts I have are 1/2" too short so I cannot do anymore til they come in.


I could not get a decent shot of the clearance between the wheel and the rod ends but there is about 1/4" at the closest point.
Got some stainless tube today to try to get rid of the rubber lines around the turbo. A little heavier than I wanted but I can still put a bump in it with this tool I got from Earls'.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #822, 09-06-2017 11:05 PM
      I have been doing a lot of work trying to make a new upper arm setup and basically my idea to use rod ends and adjustable upper arms with the pivot on the other side of the strut stub did not work out. Using this setup I found that the wheel would be moving forward as it moved up in to the wheel well and the camber gain was going the wrong way as well.

One nice thing about all this experimenting is that I did not have to hack up any of the old suspension pieces so when I decided to take a step back all I had to do was weld the old mounts back in place and bolt it back together. I got rid of the stack of washers you can see below by adding another 1" X 2" channel on top of the old mount:

The main reason I wanted to change to a new arm setup was for ease of adjustability. Taking the wheels off and putting them back on while the car is on the alignment rack is time and money consuming. The arms are bolted to a 1/4" thick piece of steel flat bar with a 1/2" grade 8 nut welded to it that can slide back and forth inside the arm mount channel. I made an adjuster that can slide the flat bar back and forth inside the channel. This is it:

So now to change the camber setting I just loosen the upper arm mounting bolts and crawl under the car with a 9/16 wrench and move the arm where ever it needs to go. I dont even need to jack the car up to do this. This is not a good picture of the adjuster welded in place but here it is:

The other thing this allows me to do is adjust the angle of the inner arm mounting axle (cant remember what it is called ) to get it to perfectly match that of the lower arm. And I am quite happy to retain the upper ball joint and not have to deal with the extra maintenance of the rod ends. Not too happy about all the money I have spent on the parts I am not going to use, but I have learned a lot and in the end have made a big improvement.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #823, 09-08-2017 06:16 PM
      More pics:




wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #824, 10-10-2017 09:50 PM
      The rear suspension is all finished now and I am quite happy with it. It has all the adjustability that I was after, no bumpsteer and has a solid feel to it on the road. The only drawback to it is that I cannot fit anything wider than a 245 with my 16" rims. I am an avid reader of car magazines and I always look at road tests and spec sheets. This has made me conclude that a car like mine that weighs in at around 2700 lbs simply does not need any wider tires to pull high g forces in a corner. For example, the new Civic Type R weighs 3100lbs and pulls 1.02 G on a skid pad and wears 245/30ZR-20 tires. Front engine front wheel drive vehicle. So I picked up a pair of BFG g-force comp 2 AS in 245/50/16 size. This is a relatively new tire and the Discount tire dealer(in Elkhart IN on our way back from CO camping) I bought them from had been on a track with them and liked them better than the summer version. He did not have the 205/50/16 size in stock I wanted for the fronts but I found a decent price for those from Costco but they had to be ordered and takes 6-10 days.
The wear on my front tires was minimal, for driving on the street they probably would last another 4 years or so but for track use they seemed to have gotten rock hard, not much bite there anymore.

While waiting for the tires I decided to do some mods to the front upper control arms. I have never been able to get the negative camber on the front I wanted and for a long time I have had some Del-a Lum delrin/aluminum bushings machined up and ready to use for control arms. One problem with the front UCA's on the car now is that they are too long. Even with slotted ball joints and slots in the arms, I could not get the negative camber I was after. I cut off the old poly bushing holder, shortened the arms 1/4" and welded the new bushings on. While I was at it I spaced the bushings the same both sides so they would have the same castor correcting another problem that they came with.

A funny thing about the specs for the 84-87 fiero is the stock front camber of positive .5 degrees. Totally backwards from what you want on a track day car. With my dial guage at home I thought I was sitting at -1.5 degrees but it came out to -.5 degrees on the rack. I have room to get more but decided to leave it as is rather than pull the wheels off and spend more money at the shop. Still a big negative gain from where it was. At the rear I now have 1.6 degrees negative camber on both sides. Caster is now 3.3 on the right and 3.6 on the left close enough for me. Toe was set to stock for 84-87. Last time we set the toe to 88 specs because I had read that Pontiac changed all fieros to those specs and I did not like the results at all. For those of you that have had a recent alignment to an 84-87 and it feels a bit squirelly on the highway, that might be why.
Drove it home and it is the best it has ever been. The improvement in turn in is night and day compared to before. And I am still on the old front tires. Definitely my old poly bushings on the UCA's had gotten soft.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 10-11-2017).]

La fiera MSG #825, 10-11-2017 09:47 AM
      Very inspiring!! have you weight the car? Keep the good work!!

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #826, 10-11-2017 10:49 AM
      Last time I weighed the car it came in at 2790 lbs but I have since put stock rear brakes back on and gotten rid of the muffler and some extra exhaust piping . So I think it is pretty close to 2700 now. I run the turbo and the cat and a single exhaust outlet and it is farly quiet except when you run the revs up. Thanks for the reply.

La fiera MSG #827, 10-11-2017 11:39 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

Last time I weighed the car it came in at 2790 lbs but I have since put stock rear brakes back on and gotten rid of the muffler and some extra exhaust piping . So I think it is pretty close to 2700 now. I run the turbo and the cat and a single exhaust outlet and it is farly quiet except when you run the revs up. Thanks for the reply.


Nice!!! I love what you did with the suspension. Have you dyno it yet?


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #828, 10-11-2017 12:51 PM
      I live about 100 miles from the nearest dyno so I have never been able to dyno the engine. I used to really want to but now I don't care. It is plenty fast enough for my needs and it revs reliably to 7000 rpm so I am happy. If I ever stumble across a dyno at a car show it would be fun to put it on and see what it does put out though.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #829, 10-11-2017 12:53 PM
      I also have been watching your thread. Very nice will certainly look awesome when it is in your car.

La fiera MSG #830, 10-11-2017 02:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

I also have been watching your thread. Very nice will certainly look awesome when it is in your car.


That sucks that your brand new motor failed!! But that's part of the learning curve. Same thing happened
to me, put too much timing by mistake and killed a rod bearing
But I'm glad you are enjoying your car! I'm going to the track this coming month to
shake down the car. I'll make sure I can get some in car footage.

Keep up the good work!!



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #831, 10-11-2017 02:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by La fiera:


That sucks that your brand new motor failed!! But that's part of the learning curve. Same thing happened
to me, put too much timing by mistake and killed a rod bearing
But I'm glad you are enjoying your car! I'm going to the track this coming month to
shake down the car. I'll make sure I can get some in car footage.

Keep up the good work!!


You must be referring to my rebuilt 2.8. That failure convinced me to go with the ecotec. I am on my second 2.2 but the first one did not fail, I managed to screw it up while taking it apart to put better pistons and rods in. I had about 60000 km on the first ecotec IIRC. I sank over 2000.00 in to my 2.8 and it lasted 600 km. It ate a lifter and a cam lobe, it was very disappointing. In car footage is great. I have a nice GoPro but I forgot to take it to the track the one time I went this year.


La fiera MSG #832, 10-11-2017 03:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:


You must be referring to my rebuilt 2.8. .


I did not know that!! But I was looking at another thread and somehow I confused the threads!!:

My engine is already in the car and running! I'm also working on a set of aluminium heads and for it
and my goal is 300WHP

Hey, can you let me know what are the part #'s of the coilovers? You can PM me so I don't jack your nice thread



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #833, 10-11-2017 04:51 PM
      That is a good question . I thought I had put the part #s in the thread somewhere but I could not find it. So I looked them up on Summit racing's website :
Fronts - QA-1 Proma Star DS 402
Rears- QA-1 Proma Star DD 402
These are available in different lengths, mounting methods and any 9-10" 2.5" ID spring that you want (springs sold separate). So go through the catalogue before you order. Only thing I would have done different is put a bearing on the top mount and get DD 402 (double adjustable) for the fronts as well.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 10-11-2017).]

La fiera MSG #834, 10-11-2017 06:17 PM
      Thank you very much!!

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #835, 10-12-2017 06:44 PM
      Got the new front tires put on today and I am really liking these tires. Turning effort is lower and they are really quiet , surprizing because a lot of reviewers thought they were on the noisy side. And really grippy. Not many miles on yet but hope to put a bunch of miles on over the next couple of weeks and then time for it to be put away till next May.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #836, 10-17-2017 12:54 PM
      My old front tires, you can see the wear line is still on the middle:

On the way back from the allignment shop I was getting a lot of road noise that I thought was because of my new front UCA bushings. A lot of noise. Put the new front tires on and the noise disappeared. Here is a pic of a Del-A-Lum bushing. I had the local machine shop turn the step off the AL centre part and make a holder out of DOM tube. I can weld an A arm to the holder tube. These may eventually become part of my rear LCA's.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #837, 10-24-2017 03:42 PM
      I have been looking at different weights of Fieros on other threads and got me wondering how much my car does weigh now. In the immediate area the only place I can do that is the dump. They have a commercial truck scale, so I took it there. With almost a full tank of gas and me out of the car it now weighs 2746 lbs. The car does not have a spare tire or AC compressor. That is 44 lbs lighter than the last time it was weighed. Credit goes to my lighter exhaust, lighter rear brakes and lighter rear suspension. So all that weight has come off the back of the car. My new front/rear weight ratio is 55.25% rear and 44.75% front.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 10-24-2017).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #838, 10-24-2017 10:18 PM
      The car comes off the road on Halloween. So I am not going to do any more suspension work till after that but I am going to do some tuning. During my quest for more revs back in the spring I changed a few things on the tune. Once I got it to rev to 7000 (by putting on a 2.5 " exhaust) I left the tune alone to conentrate on the suspension. Now I am back to tuning. I haven't run a scan since finding the problem area in the spring so I ran one today to see what I should do. Keep in mind there are many short comings of the ECM that the2004 2.2 ecotec cavalier uses. MAP only, you cannot change the base AFR and there are a limited number of spark and fuel tables to work with. But it does monitor all parameters at some ridiculous high speed so it does a very good job protecting my engine from my inadequate tuning abilities. So I went out and ran a scan to see where I am at and for the most part it looked good. The only problem I see is too much knock reduction (KR) at full boost and full throttle. Two things that should help this are just reducing the timing tables or increasing the AFR table for Power Enrich (PE). Since reducing your timing tables is a good way to reduce your power levels, I am going to increase the AFR in PE to 11 across the board. It was at 12 so hopefully this will make a difference. After I do this and run a scan, I am going to increase the water meth spray to see if that improves it any as well. And I did crank the boost up before I did the scan. Peaking out at 13 PSI now. The goal is to run a max of 15 PSI if possible.

La fiera MSG #839, 10-24-2017 10:27 PM
      If you are using Water Meth close your spark plug gap until the engine revs with no misfire. I personally tune with less timing and less fuel and that always gives you more power.
But if you add Water Injection to the equation then every changes. Through years of testing (I did some testing for Snow Performance) I found out that you must close your plug gaps once you start to inject water in the combustion chamber. Once you get that dialed in, the possibilities are endless.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #840, 10-25-2017 12:43 PM
      No problems with misfire probably because a turbo engine runs hotter than a NA engine. I will be adding the timing back in that I took out while I was having the problems caused by the 2" exhaust. I also need to go in to the HP tuners site on the tune repository and see what new tricks people have come up with. But I think I am almost ready for a reflash.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #841, 11-30-2017 09:21 PM
      Since I was thinking that my front lower control arm poly were probably as soft as the uppers had gotten I started thinking about replacing those bushings. As far as I am concerned the front lower control arms are the worst designed piece of the 84 to 87 fiero suspension. The bushings not only do not line up, they are not even mounted at the same height on the car. This causes a lot of binding and a huge lack of freedom of movement. With the OEM rubber bushings the binding is not that big of an issue. Put on poly and the binding is a lot worse and it is easy for poly bushings to spin their centre metal tube causing the frame mounting holes to get sloppy and then things start moving around.

I noticed a thread by Mender about some rear control arm bushings called Lemforders. I don't know what the actual name of this type of joint is but it is basically a rod end without the threaded mounting stub but with a round housing that is pressed in to a control arm. They also are greased with rubber grease seals that will increase service life over rod ends. I figured these would solve all of the problems inherent to having poly on the front lower control arms.

I picked up a cheaper version of the bushing made by Febest MBAB-027Z on Amazon. They are only 12.00 compared to lemforders at 50.00 each. I cut and ground out some pipe to make holders for them. I made a makeshift jig to hold them in place while I welded them to the arms.



Prior to welding the jig on to the tube I cut almost all the old weld off as some of it would be covered by the jig. As I was taking the passenger side arm off I noticed that the rear mounting tabs had gotten pretty sloppy. Probably why I started noticing a slight right hand pull whenever I tapped the brakes just before putting the car away for the winter.

This is the completed passenger side lower control arm. I did not get the rear holder welded in so it would be centred in the frame tabs. Next time I will be a little fussier. The arm now moves up and down with no binding.



I used 9/16" grade 8 bolts to hold the rear of the arm in place because the holes were sloppy to the point of almost fitting that size. The Febest bushings have a 9/16 mounting hole. On the front mount I made a sleave for inside the bushing so I could use flanged 12 mm chassis bolts.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 11-30-2017).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #842, 11-30-2017 09:31 PM
      The Febest bushing:



Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #843, 12-01-2017 06:09 AM
      Hey Steve.

Lemforder balljoints are used heavily in BMW vehicles. I replace them on a regular basis as they are a wearable item. The next time I pull one out, I can get you some dimensions if needed. Remember, I can get these at cost if needed.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #844, 12-01-2017 08:29 AM
      Sounds good thanks Shayne. The Febest bushings come with a note saying they will only last 60,000 KM so as they wear out I will put the better quality Lemforders on. I just didn't feel like laying out that much cash at this time. Dimensions of any similar bushing you pull out would be appreciated. There seem to be about a hundred different years and models of Mercedes that use this type of bushing as well.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-01-2017).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #845, 12-06-2017 05:53 PM
      Passenger side is all reassembled. I tried adding a bit more castor by shimming the lower arm forward but that caused binding of the shock mount bushings. I could correct that with the rod end mounts I have but I put it back to stock. It isn't out by much so I will correct it on the upper arm after I get the drivers side done. I will need to set the camber but I can't do that without getting the car on the ground.



On the driver side I made a new jig that I think is a bit more accurate. Also I narrowed the holder to make it easier to get the spacers in. My original idea was to make them as wide as the febest bushing to protect the rubber from debris. I have decided the extra hour or so of swearing and chasing washers all over the garage is something I can do without. On the first replacement I will narrow down the passenger side to match. The passenger side bushings are already plug welded so taking them out now would ruin them.



Ready to weld tomorrow. Too dark in our garage at night to do a good job of it.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-28-2017).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #846, 12-12-2017 05:57 PM
      The drivers side front lower control is now welded up and installed. I put everything back together and put the wheels back on.

This pic shows the arm with the narrow bushing holders bolted in place.



The car is now sitting on dollies for the winter. Next up is new Del-A-Lum bushings for the rear lower control arms.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 12-12-2017).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #847, 12-22-2017 12:33 PM
      I picked up a new sliding compound mitre saw from Canadian Tire. They are on sale for 299.00 now. What made me buy it is that it will cut mild steel up to 1/4" thick. I was skeptical but it cuts really well. It uses a new (to me anyway) kind of carbide tipped blade made in Japan. I can now cut just about anything with just this saw and not send sparks flying all over the garage. The only thing I need now is a clamp to hold small pieces securely.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #848, 12-22-2017 04:18 PM
      Made up a bracket to weld the new bushings on the control arm. New saw made short work of cutting the bits and pieces. Cut and welded up in about an hour.



Going to cut off the old bushings and fit the new bushings to the arm tonight. The old bushings were shot, I could wiggle the end of the arm back and forth about 3/8" after the control rod and ball joint were disconnected.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #849, 12-24-2017 12:18 PM
      Got one side welded up and I weighed it and it came out to 6.2 lbs. Got rid of the old control rod mount while I was at it. Ready to go back on:



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #850, 12-28-2017 12:11 AM
      Winter has hit full bore here in Bruce County. We are known as the land of horizontal snow but right now along with the snow we are getting really cold temps. We do get the odd dip down to -20C for a week or so but not till late January early February. For most of the winter we hover a few degrees off freezing give or take. All day it has been -15C and now it is -17. So working in our non heated garage has meant wearing my battery heated jacket and using a propane heater to keep my work area bearable. We can't drive anywhere so I try to stay busy on the car.

So I wanted to do some painting in the cold and I figured I could do it if I heated up the object in front of my propane heater. I have lots of red spray bombs warm in the basement so I heated up a bumpsteer bracket and sprayed it. The paint kind of boiled as it hit it. Guess 5 minutes was a little long to warm it up. Anyway it came out with a crinkle finish that looks OK to me:



I have everything in place again and spent most of the day adjusting camber and getting the upper arm angle to match the lower arm angle and getting the wheel base to match the other side. A lot of finnicky stuff that takes a lot of time. Some of my high tech tools:



I can plot wheel movement on the ground with the laser and check camber gain with the dial protractor. Looks like I gain -2 degrees from ride height to projected full compression (about 2.5" of wheel travel) and nothing noticeable as far as bumpsteer. There is about 1/8" forward movement of the wheel from full droop to full compression. I do not think that will affect anything but the only way I think I can correct that is to cut off the upper arm mounts and reposition them. Not happening unless the next track day shows I need to. I will set ride height camber at -1 degrees. I am going to drop the ride height lower than last year, I think it has crept up a bit. I have fitted better rod ends as well as high deflection washers on the chassis side of the control rod. These have a 5/8" bore but 5/8" OD stainless tube makes a perfect spacer for fitting to the 12mm flanged chassis bolt:






wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #851, 01-01-2018 06:45 PM
      I have completed the driver side rear lower control arm put in a new ball joint too:



Glad to finally have all the control arms completed with their new bushings. The upper rear control arms still have their original poly but they are not that old yet and seem pretty good.

Playing around with ride heights I found that this is as far as I want the tire to go under compression because any further travel and the axle hits the transmission:




The line on the axle was just from me turning the wheel and tire as I raised it to the limit. Tomorrow I hope to get the other arm installed and then I have some cleanup and a bit of welding to do on the cradle.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-01-2018).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #852, 01-03-2018 08:10 AM
      Drivers side is installed:




If you look close you can see the access hole I had to cut in the cradle to get the longer bolt in. Using the high deflection rod end washers meant the bolts had to be 1/2" longer. Just long enough that I could not get them in without cutting a hole.

I have not found a jig yet to hold small pieces so I tacked the bushing holders to a piece of square 1"X 1" tube. If you are considering buying a saw like the Evolution one drawback is that if you are usually cutting 1/4" thick steel you will dull the blade fairly quickly. I bought this saw as an alternative to a horizontal bad saw (much cheaper) but it is really only cost effective for mild steel 1/8" or less.



My Makita chop saw did not cut straight enough when I tried to slice an eighth inch off one of the bushing holders. I also had to cut the holders with the aluminum centre in place and that caused the abrasive cutter of the chop saw to clog up. The evolution cuts aluminum like a knife through butter and worked better and stayed straight. Overall everything came out well and the new bushings lined up perfect with the frame holes.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 01-03-2018).]

mender MSG #853, 01-03-2018 10:02 PM
      Making good progress!

Good to know about the chop saw; I use a bandsaw for my stuff.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #854, 01-04-2018 09:16 AM
      Thanks. I have always wanted a band saw but space is limited in my garage and now that I am retired I have to watch what I spend. But the upside is I get to spend all the time I want working on my hobbies.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #855, 01-17-2018 06:09 PM
      Today I spent 2 hours modifying the coilover upper spring perches. To get the coilovers off I have had to unbolt the knuckle from the ball joint adapter. This did not affect the alignment at all because the tolerances there are very tight. But it added time to the job so I ground away about 3/8" away from the bottom of the upper perches and cut a bit of metal away from the upper strut mount area that no longer does anything. A bit of trimming of the outside of the upper control arm mounts so they could drop down further and now the coilovers can go in and out by just taking out the mounting bolts. I did not take any pics of this because it really doesn't look any different than before.

So other than a spring alignment, that is all I am doing to the suspension this winter. Next up is getting rid of this mess:



I ran the charge pipe through the trunk area so that I could adjust the rear camber on the passenger side without taking the wheel off. I have hated the look of it ever since. So I am going to route it the way I had it a while ago. This will mean relocating the turbo heat exchanger back in to the engine bay. Currently it sits where the cat converter originally was. I like that location but not all the extra piping that goes with it. The other thing that is going to happen in this area is some stainless steel hard piping and Tee fittings to clean up the ugly and prone to failure hoses and plastic fittings that are there now. The intake and air filter are getting a reroute too but I have not decided how I am going to do that yet.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #856, 01-23-2018 04:57 PM
      I have completed the first part of my engine bay update. I was hoping to do a lot more hard piping than I did but I decided running stainless all the way to the OEM alluminum heater lines was going to be really awkward and be a lot heavier than heater hose. I got rid of all the domestic water plastic fittings and replaced them where needed with Gates plastic fittings that are designed for automotive use.Making up a couple of short metal lines got the plastic fittings away from the heat of the turbo manifold. I may change out the stainless steel one for a mild steel line like the other one in the picture because it is a lot easier to bend the mild steel without putting the kinks in the pipe that you will see in the pics. Once the charge pipe is in there it wont be seen any way so maybe not.



I think this will improve the flow of hot air off the turbo manifold and out the decklid scoop. Before the heater hoses and intake piping had that whole area mostly blocked. I also added a small rad cap style filler neck:



This item was left over from my air to water heat exchanger kit. It was not needed because i fill the system up with a coolant tank located in the front trunk. I also shortend the OEM heater pipes that ended part way up the passenger compartment bulkhead. So difficult to get in that area, now the fittings are out in the open just in front of the back of the gas tank. I used some Earls tools to put bumps in the new stubs. I haven't connected the new hoses to the stubs yet, going to have to wait till spring for that because i want to flush out the heater core and lines to get the filings out. Hope to get the intake completed tomorrow.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #857, 01-25-2018 06:26 PM
      Over the years I have changed turbos, manifolds, heat exchangers plumbing and lots of other things. So I have a choice between these 2 HX's :



The big one will handle about 550HP and the smaller one about 350HP. Using the smaller one will save about 5 lbs of weight. So I am going to try the smaller one because I doubt if I will ever tune this engine to run at 350+ HP. I have had both on the car and they seemed to cool the charge about the same. Did a quick mock up of the charge piping:



Need to make a few brackets and use a shorter 90 coming out of the turbo to level the front tube. Should have It all done tomorrow.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #858, 01-27-2018 06:24 PM
      It was 7C out today so I managed to get the heater hard lines cleaned out and ran all the new hoses for the heater and for the heat exchanger .Got the charge piping all clamped together and I did not need to make any brackets. Two heavy duty tie wraps secure the HX to the strut brace and one tie wrap hangs the piping near the throttle body.







Fired it up to check for leaks and make sure the air was out of everything. No leaks that I can see and the filler cap worked great. As soon as the temp guage started to move, there was warm air coming out of the defroster. The intake is not clamped together yet because I want to get a new air filter. Maybe tomorrow.


Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #859, 01-28-2018 08:04 AM
      That engine bay looks a lot cleaner then it used to. Great job Steve!

[This message has been edited by Lunatic (edited 01-28-2018).]

La fiera MSG #860, 01-28-2018 11:01 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

It was 7C out today so I managed to get the heater hard lines cleaned out and ran all the new hoses for the heater and for the heat exchanger .Got the charge piping all clamped together and I did not need to make any brackets. Two heavy duty tie wraps secure the HX to the strut brace and one tie wrap hangs the piping near the throttle body.







Fired it up to check for leaks and make sure the air was out of everything. No leaks that I can see and the filler cap worked great. As soon as the temp guage started to move, there was warm air coming out of the defroster. The intake is not clamped together yet because I want to get a new air filter. Maybe tomorrow.


I'm a fan of your work Steve! Keep Fieroing!!



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #861, 01-29-2018 05:40 PM
      Thanks for the replies. It has been a productive winter so far, really looking forward to driving the car this year. Amazing what you can get done when you don't have to go to work any more. What I am doing now is taking out all the AC stuff that hasn't worked since I got the car. I decided not to install AC because of the cost and weight savings. It really does not get that hot around here any way and the fiero is a fairly comfortable car to drive with the windows down. The other thing is that I am going to be able to tuck all the extra hoses nicely beside the fuel tank with the AC hard lines removed.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #862, 01-31-2018 07:19 PM
      Got 2 more things off the list: hoses and extra wires are tucked in beside the gas tank and put together a new intake with new air filter. All done with crawling under the car for this winter. I seriously considered dropping the gas tank to fix my fuel gauge but I am going to do that job in late fall when I can do it outside.More pics:





I have a big pile of silicone charge pipe bends,reducers, clamps and aluminum bends that I used to run various versions of charge piping and intake that I am going to sell in the mall. Probably some other stuff once I start sorting through all the boxes of stuff I have filling up the garage at the moment.


La fiera MSG #863, 02-01-2018 01:25 PM
      Nice job! Now lets hear it roar!! WHOAAAA PSSST

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #864, 02-03-2018 11:20 AM
      https://youtu.be/wTGC7SiHNT4

Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #865, 02-04-2018 07:29 AM
      Your video gave me much-needed inspiration. Thanks for that. I think I'll have to pay you a visit and purchase a few items off you.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #866, 02-13-2018 06:25 PM
      Decided to take a break from mechanical stuff and mount the decklid lip spoiler that I bought at the 30th show. It is a fiero warehouse product I think. After moving it around to mark the holes, I drilled them in the wrong spot. The next holes did the trick. I added some double sided tape about 1/4" in from the leading edge to prevent any vibrating.









Thanks for the reply Shayne anytime you want to come up just shoot me an email to make sure I will be here. Steve



Lunatic (shaynes@rogers.com) MSG #867, 02-13-2018 06:59 PM
      That spoiler is effin' cool. I like it a lot. I might have to look into something like that in the future.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #868, 02-13-2018 11:46 PM
      Thanks. I was actally considering a big wing for downforce on the track but trying to pick one was proving impossible. I found this thread- https://oppositelock.kinja....-it-wrong-1665312667 on the difference between a wing and a spoiler with wind tunnel smoke patterns and charts etc and decided the spoiler would do what I wanted and save me building a front splitter. The upside to the spoiler is preventing lift and keeping the car stable at speed. Sometimes you gain a bit of downforce. Less drag with a spoiler as opposed to a wing. I have heard it said on the forum that the stock wing improves stability at high speed but I have been at high speed with and without a stock wing and never noticed any difference. Main reason to get rid of the wing is I hated how it blocked the view out the back.The spoiler blocks very little of the view out the back.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 02-14-2018).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #869, 02-27-2018 06:39 PM
      We are enjoying a warm snap up here so I decided to put the car back on the road. Spent yesterday touring around for about an hour and then I jacked the car up to check everything over. Everything looked good so today I took it to get alligned. I bought a digital protractor to set my camber and it did not work at all. Two wheels had to be adjusted in the shop and that added a bit to the bill. Next time I will use my mechanical protractor and read it with a magnifying glass.
The new bushings have not added to road noise at all but the overall feel is like I added about 100 lbs to the spring rate at each corner. It just feels stiffer even though the spring rate has not changed. Probably because the old poly busings were shot and added a bit of compliance to the suspension is the only thing I can think of.I set the coilovers to 5 all the way around and found the ride a bit bouncy. Then I tried 10 and the ride was down right punishing. I then went down to a setting of 1 all around and for street driving that now feels best. Smooth ride and a better feeling of control. This time of year the roads are warming up and the frost is coming out of the ground and our roads get bumpy for a while.The stiffer settings are great for track days but not for street driving this time of year.

I also found my simonize oscilating polisher and have brought some of the paint back to life. Hope to get the rest of it done tomorrow and post some pics.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #870, 02-28-2018 05:12 PM
      Looks like tomorrow is going to be cold and wet so back in the garage it will go. Going to drive it whenever it is dry out. Today we went to Cambridge in it and everything went well. Got the top half shined up a bit, looks better in pics than in person but not bad overall. Also gave my headlight covers the Turtle Wax restore treatment and removed one projector from each side and got the high beams to work. Before and after cover pics below:










wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #871, 03-01-2018 11:14 PM
      The predicted wet weather did not arrive so I decided it was time to upgrade my tune. Since I pretty well ruined the tune chasing my tail around what was actually an exhaust piping problem I decided to start from scratch. I went through the whole tune and modded or put back to stock just about everything. It took probably about 8 hours in total work over the last couple of months. So I wrote the new tune in and took the car for a ride and was really happy with the changes. The car is smoother and feels stronger than before. I have not run a scan yet but I doubt I will have to change anything. If it is nice out tomorrow I will take it for a long ride and do a scan.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #872, 03-03-2018 08:37 PM
      I have been driving the car a lot and everything feels good. I decided to run a scan and noticed a few things- about 9 degrees of KR in a spike around 4000 RPM in third gear with throttle wide open. And I noticed the AL piping of the charge pipe gets hot as it passes above the exhaust manifold. I was hoping the new set up would not be as warm in that area but no such luck. So I found some auto sound deadener on sale at CTC and wrapped all the AL pipe and elbow with it and then some AL foil tape and some ty wraps for good measure:



Before the wrap the max temp was 68F peak and constant no boost temp of 54F, after 61F max and 45F constant. Temperature outside today about 38F.So the insulation made a decent improvement. As for the KR spikes I really have not figured out yet. I have the water meth set to come on full at 8 PSI so I should not get any knock. Here is a screen shot of one of the spikes:



Hopefully I will straighten it out but a spike like this might have happened with the last tune. I was so happy to have 7000 RPM again I did not run a scan after. And then I took it to the track with no ill effects. The ECM computer does its job and keeps the engine in one piece in spite of all my best efforts.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #873, 03-05-2018 05:37 PM
      I have been running lots of scans, researching info from a ways back on the HP tuners forum(circa 2006 to 2010, no one tunes these first gen 2.2's anymore) and I have made some good progress.It is hard to get the old info because most of the links and pasted on charts have gone missing from the old HP tuners threads. I did all my old tuning by just following along as other people tuned there cars. Ask a question about something and someone would reply with a bunch of screen shots of tables and would say copy these and it would work. But all that info is gone now.

I raised my PE (power enrich) commanded AFR to 12.5 from 11. I copied the low octane PE spark table onto the high octane PE table. I copied the low octane non PE spark table onto the high octane table. I changed my VE offset to 50% up from 40%.On one of my runs I found the water meth injection had a leak at the nozzle fitting so I fixed that. So I took out a lot of timing under boost and the biggest spike I see now is a KR of 8 degrees. That is down from 12.4 from before the changes. Most of the other spikes are less than 3 degrees. So still room for improvement but what has me wondering is why the water meth is not taking care of this.Funny thing is you would think that suddenly having 12 degrees of timing removed would cause me to feel the car bog a bit but it only shows up on the recording and not in the way the car runs. I am beginning to suspect false knock and the culprit may be my homemade poly motor mount. I had no problem with KR with the stock mount and I was running more timing then. I made the mount because the stock rubber mount wore out. I think I will take a trip to the wreckers tomorrow and pick one up.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 03-05-2018).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #874, 03-10-2018 03:51 PM
      I bought a cavalier upper mount on wednesday but decided not to use it. The thing weighs about 10 lbs and I should have looked closer at it because it is not in the best of shape. So I started thinking of another way to do a motor mount using the friend to engine swappers everywhere, the dodge truck engine mount. Looked one up on Summit Racing and it was 4.00 and change. Cheap. Tried CTC and they wanted 12.00 and 2 days to get it. Spike's autoparts said 3.25 each and be here the next day. I bought 2 of them for less than 8 bucks. Here is one:



The plan is to cut off the top of the present mount at the top of the Y shown here (existing mount is under the intake tubing):



But I had the sawzall at the ready but decided to wait until I do a scan of my latest tune in case the KR has gone down by a lot. Of course the weather is not cooperating(4" of snow last night) so until I can get out on the road again the sawzall can stay on the shelf.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #875, 03-13-2018 07:41 PM
      The weather around here continues to be bad. Getting up to 4" of snow most nights and it is not forecast to melt anytime soon. So rather than wait and do another scan I decided to go ahead and make the new motor mount. I used the cast aluminum part of the original mount as the connector to the engine block. Bolted a 1"X1" square tube to the cast part and bolted the truck mount to that tube. Welded another tube to the fiero sheet metal and drilled a hole in it to run the lower mount bolt through. I had a hard time getting a decent looking weld to this sheet metal as it is 2 layers and there is seam sealer in between the two layers that kept catching fire on me. So it looks like cr&p but I did manage to get enough decent beads to secure it. There is a brace of 1/8" flatbar welded from the tube to the sheet metal for added strength. A 3/4" OD .120 wall stainless tube braces the square tube back to the strut housing. It is welded to the stub left when I cut off the old mount. I used nothing of the old mount, it was in the wrong place for the new design. So the new mount could use a lot of prettying up(ala grinding) but it is solid.



With the cold weather and the tune I am running the engine runs pretty rough for the first minute or so. With the old mount the engine did not shake, just vibrated the whole car basically. With the new mount the engine will shake back and forth during the rough warm up period, moving about 1/4" each way. So I think the old mount was pretty much a solid mount, not enough poly in it to absorb any vibration. Hopefully that is what has been causing the bulk of my KR, but I wont know for sure till the weather turns for the better.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #876, 03-31-2018 10:26 PM
      I have had a few days of decent weather to do some more tuning and test out the new motor mount. The mount works great but only gained back maybe 2 degrees of KR so not the culprit I was hoping it was. I have been backing off the timing based on the scans I have run and had it down to the odd spike of about 6 degrees. I made some more changes and took it for another run and it showed a bit of a stumble as it came in to boost. Before the run I had increased the watermeth injection and since I have not noticed anything like that before I decided to do a 2nd run with the w/m injection dialed way back. Stumble gone and everything seemed much better. Checking the scans when I got home showed 0 degrees of KR during the run with the water meth dialed way back. So I am thinking the KR was caused by me dumping too much w/m in to the engine. I kept increasing when I should have been decreasing. And the fitting on the elbow started leaking again, turned out it was not the plastic fitting but the metal housing of the spray nozzle holder:



So I decided to redo the charge pipe from the HX to the throttle body and relocate the w/m injection nozzle to the fitting that holds the IAT sensor and the w/m boost reference line:



I used a cast iron plumbing fitting to seal the crack in the nozzle holder. The new charge pipe:



The w/m injector controller for the high spray has a confusing to me anyway selection dial. It starts low and then the last part of the dial has 4 psi and then 19 psi. So I have been guessing at where I thought 11 psi was and putting full spray at that point. What I did not realize was full spray was too much at 11psi of boost. When I did the run that showed no KR I turned the dial for for full spray at 19 and that seemed to be the right spot.

I changed the nozzle to one size smaller so hopefully I will have a finer range on the controller. Now that I have achieved 0 KR I can start tuning for more power.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #877, 04-02-2018 11:30 AM
      The spray nozzle change made things worse. The Snow kit I bought came with 3 nozzles and I have been using the medium size one. The smallest one that I tried really can be best described as having a pin hole sized opening. So I put the old nozzle back in and did a long scan with a full throttle pull in second and third gear and got a max KR of 1.1. Not perfect but I can easily tune that out on the spark tables. I also did about a mile in 3rd gear at 3500 to 6500 rpm to replicate what I do on a road course (the tracks I have run on can be run in that gear without shifting) and that showed no KR at all. The knock sensor on this engine seems very sensitive, there are spots in the scan that show at steady speed in top gear a few random spikes of .5 KR. So probably a bump in the road can set it off.

zkhennings MSG #878, 08-03-2018 04:05 PM
      I think you are negating the bumpsteer fix by tying that link to the frame, it has to be tied to the control arm directly like you used to have it. The way you have it currently will still cause bumpsteer as the link and the control arm will not take the same arc as the suspension moves.

Also after all these years have passed, what would you recommend for engine management? You are using the Cavi computer and have made some changes with HP Tuners correct? Limitations of this method include difficulty with using the stock Fiero gauges and it seems like you kept the Cavi sender as well for fuel level.

I am debating between ecotec and 3800 swap, I want a reduction in weight from the rear end though and the 3800 will not give me that, though it does seem like the simpler swap. But it would be nice to have ample room around the engine to work on everything, and both motors (L61 and L67) are similarly priced. I would need the transmission from the cavi also, but its under $200 so whatever I will just have to do some fab to get it to shift properly. I can live with an NA ecotec for a while until deciding to boost it. My uncertainties come from the wiring and engine management aspect of things, the 3800 seems very straightforwards compared to the Ecotec, but that is also because many people have done it, while you are one of the very few to have a running ecotec. What is your opinion on the engine management side of things? Stick with the stock computer and go HP tuners, or aftermarket engine management? Megasquirt is way more comprehensive than it was when you were first deciding what to go with.

Great work making such consistent progress for so long.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #879, 08-03-2018 10:12 PM
      This is a link all about my bumpsteer solution. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/134732.html . It actually works perfectly, and Mender has made his own version of it. The pivot point on the frame is the pivot point of the control arm bushings and is the mounting bolt for the control arm bushing resulting in zero measureable bumpsteer. My trip to the track showed that my tires were shot, as were all my poly joints except the rear upper control arms and springs were too light for track use. All have been changed out and I am happy with the results. I have not had time to do another track day and I am still debating about wether I really need such heavy springs. Hopefully I can fit a track day in soon.

The problems that my too small exhaust caused resulted in me making all kind of unnecesary changes to the tune. What I ended up doing to get it right after switching to a 2 1/2" exhaust was to go back to a mostly stock tune. The changes to stock tune are 50% VE offset, injector constant changed to suit 42 lb injectors, 11 PE , and PE enable at 2500 RPM and some other stuff that I can't remember now. I last played with the tune in early May and have been driving the car almost every day and there is nothing that needs changing.

I like using the stock cavi management system with HP tuners but the 2004 system I have does have its drawbacks. It is a MAP only system and only has a 1 bar MAP. When I did this swap it was all that was available. I think it works great for me but I would recommend going with something from a 2007 Cobalt. Still tuneable with HP tuners but a better system overall. Buy a whole car and take what you need and sell the rest. Cobalts are dirt cheap. If you follow member Lunatic's thread he is solving the problems of making it all work with Fiero guages. I use a cavalier guage cluster.

I decided early on that I did not want the weight of a 3800. I wanted a handling car and you need a lighter motor to do that. If you follow the Fiero LeMons/Chump car threads and watch the videos you will see all of the v6 powered cars spinning out from time to time. My car does not do that, it is completely neutral. As I hit the limit, all four tires will slide but the rear will not slide out nor does the front plow. You just end up taking a wider arc that can be easily corrected by dropping the throttle or a tap on the brakes.

By accident, my engine and transmission sit very low in the chassis. If you compare the engine bay pics of mine versus other ecotecs you can see this. I cannot lower the rear of my car any more than it is because the passenger axle will hit the transmission. I do not know if this contributes more to the chassis neutrality than the lower engine weight but it must help a lot.

As far as stand alone systems, I think they are great but I have not found one for the 500.00 price tag that I would be willing to pay. I have a Megasquirt setup designed for the ecotec by member Fosgate Cavvy but I have never tried it out.

Sorry for being so long winded but I have not posted in a while. Thanks for your post.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 08-04-2018).]

KillerFrogg (killerfrogg3@gmail.com) MSG #880, 08-07-2018 11:14 AM
      This post turned out way longer than I thought it would. Abridged version. 2.2 works but has quirks. Other ecotechs are easier with aftermarket computers but are a bit more rare. Aftermarket computers are easier to work with and more flexible in most cases but expensive.


One of the biggest hurdles for most people to get over doing an Ecotech is the computer. A huge part of that is that the older 2.2s that are super cheap and common have an.. interesting ignition system. Is is based off of technology Saab developed in the 80's and continued to develop through till GM bought the company. Long story short, the ignition coil/cassette in the cam cover does a bunch of science with the sparkplugs and can figure out where the cams are, and this is the important thing, without a traditional cam sensor. The drawback is that this only works with engines with fixed cam timing. The later engines with variable can not use the old system as it can only get cam timin