Held Motorsports Bump Steer Kit Heim Joint Replacement
Topic started by: 5000S, Date: 10-30-2019 09:03 AM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/143120.html


5000S (lamborghinise1@aol.com) MSG #1, 10-30-2019 09:03 AM
      My heim joints on the Held Anti Bump Steer Kit are worn out. There are 2 on each control arm. One for toe adjustment and one for connecting the control arm to the knuckle. Somebody knows the right parts for replacing them? In best case with heavier duty ones since these have worn out very quick.
Speedwaymotors has many different ones: https://www.speedwaymotors....32*l_thread_type:134

Which ones to choose?



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #2, 10-30-2019 09:15 AM
      You have to measure the stud thread size and the size of the hole in the joint. Then pick the one you want. QA1 website has a great selection of all the different joints available. Once you have their part # you can go to Speedway or Summit and order it. You may have left hand threads, so check that before ordering. The studs come in left or right.



lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #3, 10-30-2019 10:59 AM
      Whatever you find, please share. I'm in the same boat...

theogre MSG #4, 10-30-2019 12:03 PM
      Most had 1 heim for inside and standard tie rod ball end for outside.

If standard end fails likely didn't get lube or end got hit very hard. If a wheel got hit, have to get everything else too because can have bent/damage other parts.

Unlike most Heim joints that wear out because not made for this use. Replacing w/ nearly any on link page etc just wear out likely fast again too.
Most are
1. Not made constant loads for suspension for pretty must anything.
2. Not made as "water proof" or even dust resistance and every thing gets in the joint.
Including most ones w/ grease fittings. You grease them often to Very often to lube but also keep dirt/water out.

HM and others made hype/scam "fixes" like a "Bump Steer Kit" for a "bump steer" problem "reported" by some trade rags that claim Fiero has "big problems."
Just replacing OEM Struts and Shocks w/ good Gas units fixes this better even before you anything else. GM uses the Cheapest units on Fiero and most cars that you can't get them anywhere but maybe Dealer Service Parts counter even in 1980's.

I would replace w/ OE design inner rear tie rod and don't worry about them for decades and install gas strut if needed too since will need alignment.
See my Cave, Bump Steer and the rest of section.

If you want better rod then most aftermarket
RD 1984-1987 Heavy Duty Rear Inner Tie Rod



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #5, 10-31-2019 09:42 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Most had 1 heim for inside and standard tie rod ball end for outside.



That's the RCC bump steer kit.
Held/Ryane/Arraut's kit replaces the entire control arm.

The rod ends are problably either 5/8" or 3/4". 5/8" is a -10 part, 3/4" is a -12 part. That dimension is both the diameter of the threads AND the diameter of the hole in the ball.

I've started using Aurora VCM/VCB rod ends on my Formula. VCM is right hand thread. VCB is left hand thread. The VC series has a PTFE liner. You should be able to get VCM-10, VCB-10, VCM-12 or VCB-12 from Motion Industries or any of several other suppliers. With the body profile of those rod ends, the Pro-Werks rod end seals work much better than with parts that have thicker bodies.

http://www.corner-carvers.c...198722&postcount=109


olejoedad (welch.joe.714@gmail.com) MSG #6, 10-31-2019 11:30 AM
      The bumpsteer kits shouldn't be on public roads.

theogre MSG #7, 10-31-2019 01:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
That's the RCC bump steer kit.
Held/Ryane/Arraut's kit replaces the entire control arm.

The rod ends are problably either 5/8" or 3/4". 5/8" is a -10 part, 3/4" is a -12 part. That dimension is both the diameter of the threads AND the diameter of the hole in the ball.

I've started using Aurora VCM/VCB rod ends on my Formula. VCM is right hand thread. VCB is left hand thread. The VC series has a PTFE liner. You should be able to get VCM-10, VCB-10, VCM-12 or VCB-12 from Motion Industries or any of several other suppliers. With the body profile of those rod ends, the Pro-Werks rod end seals work much better than with parts that have thicker bodies.
Thanks for version but has same problem using Heim Joint(s). PTFE is generic Teflon and still have most or all of same issues as metal on metal types and likely some issues for Teflon use too.
 
quote
Originally posted by olejoedad:
The bumpsteer kits shouldn't be on public roads.
More so if any has newer Arraut parts. Some have broken them because made weaker then original ones. Use search.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #8, 10-31-2019 03:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Thanks for version but has same problem using Heim Joint(s). PTFE is generic Teflon and still have most or all of same issues as metal on metal types and likely some issues for Teflon use too.


PTFE lined units have non-zero pre-load torque, and thus don't have any play when new. The narrow bodied style works much better with sealing washers than the thick bodied style and at least has a chance at staying clean for a decent period of time.

Fundamentally nothing beats an automotive grade spherical bearing, but they're even harder to implement than industrial/aerospace spherical bearings.


Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #9, 10-31-2019 05:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by theogre: Thanks for version but has same problem using Heim Joint(s). PTFE is generic Teflon and still have most or all of same issues as metal on metal types and likely some issues for Teflon use too.

At least the RCC kit doesn't use a clevis joint in the toe link. It's practically impossible for a clevis joint to NOT have slop. Yeah, the Held / Arraut kit has toe links engineered to have slop in them. BRILLIANT!


5000S (lamborghinise1@aol.com) MSG #10, 11-01-2019 10:51 AM
      This is correct for all normal and maybe slightly modified 84-87 Fieros. But with a Countach Rebody you have much more weight and a much wider suspension causing trouble. The rear wheels (on 345 tires) have an offset of -40mm and 2 inch spacers on each side. I had the stock setup with all new parts, Koni struts etc. but after installing the Held rear control arms the difference was like day and night, especially with the 4.9 engine. Only problem was the joints wore out after less than 200 miles! In between I had the RCC system - better than OEM but not good enough with the wider suspension.

I found now some of the Heim joints from a German manufacturer. Expensive but heavy duty made for race cars. If they fit, I will post it.

Unfortunately there are no more aftermarket suspension parts like control arms, spindles etc. available anymore.

 
quote
Originally posted by theogre:

Most had 1 heim for inside and standard tie rod ball end for outside.

If standard end fails likely didn't get lube or end got hit very hard. If a wheel got hit, have to get everything else too because can have bent/damage other parts.

Unlike most Heim joints that wear out because not made for this use. Replacing w/ nearly any on link page etc just wear out likely fast again too.
Most are
1. Not made constant loads for suspension for pretty must anything.
2. Not made as "water proof" or even dust resistance and every thing gets in the joint.
Including most ones w/ grease fittings. You grease them often to Very often to lube but also keep dirt/water out.

HM and others made hype/scam "fixes" like a "Bump Steer Kit" for a "bump steer" problem "reported" by some trade rags that claim Fiero has "big problems."
Just replacing OEM Struts and Shocks w/ good Gas units fixes this better even before you anything else. GM uses the Cheapest units on Fiero and most cars that you can't get them anywhere but maybe Dealer Service Parts counter even in 1980's.

I would replace w/ OE design inner rear tie rod and don't worry about them for decades and install gas strut if needed too since will need alignment.
See my Cave, Bump Steer and the rest of section.

If you want better rod then most aftermarket
RD 1984-1987 Heavy Duty Rear Inner Tie Rod





wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #11, 11-01-2019 12:53 PM
      I had the Held bumpsteer kit on my car for a couple of years and it did cure the bump steer but I really did not like it. It is a very heavy unit and with my ecotec engine there was some minor interference issues. I also did not like that you have to modify the stock spindle so going back to stock means getting a new set of spindles. I did not wear out any heim joints, maybe they used to come with better ones? At any rate I decided to build my own system. http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/134732.html

After 4 summers on the car I have had no problems with it. It has been on a road course and it is still like new. And I still have not worn out a heim joint, but I did spend money on some high quality ones-48.00 each ouch!

This will not fit cars with 15" wheels. I do agree that stock Fiero's with stock size wheels and tires really do not have a major problem with bumpsteer. It is when you get in to bigger rear tires and wheels that you notice the movement on bumpy roads.



lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #12, 11-03-2019 11:40 AM
      There's a bump in turn 3 at the track that I go to. I'm running 315 tires in the back...
I'm running the RCC kit on my 4.9 …




@wftb - can you make another set of arms?


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #13, 11-03-2019 07:31 PM
      I really would not feel comfortable building arms for someone else. The old liability issue etc and I do not have the equipment needed to make a consistant product.

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #14, 11-03-2019 09:53 PM
      After installing the Held kit on a friend's Fiero, I decided to do the '88 cradle swap on my Fiero instead. The cradle swap fixes the bump-steer issue, plus improves ride quality. And it doesn't use sketchy parts or add a bunch of unsprung weight.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #15, 11-03-2019 10:39 PM
      The 88 cradle swap does make a big improvement in ride mostly but I just do not like a semi trailing arm strut suspensions. Add to that there are not many 88 cradles up here in Canada at a decent price and I decided to build my own suspension. This car is my hobby and my main goal now is to improve it without spending a bunch of money. My new rule is if I can't do it with stuff I have laying around the garage, then I am not going to do it. Being retired on a relatively fixed income has a lot to do with this.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #16, 11-05-2019 08:58 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

The 88 cradle swap does make a big improvement in ride mostly but I just do not like a semi trailing arm strut suspensions.



Good thing it's a multi-link and not a semi-trailing arm, then


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #17, 11-05-2019 09:38 AM
      OK it is a multilink single trailing arm strut suspension. If it had 2 trailing arms I might have made a bigger effort to get an 88 cradle a long time ago.

[This message has been edited by wftb (edited 11-05-2019).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #18, 11-05-2019 10:20 AM
      An upper and lower trailing arm? then it wouldn't be a strut.

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #19, 11-05-2019 08:48 PM
      In amy case, the '88 suspension is superior to the earlier suspension. And IMO it's preferable to the Held bumpsteer kit. And for most of the people who will be reading this thread, the cradle swap will be more accessible than building a custom suspension.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #20, 11-06-2019 12:14 PM
      Swapping the stock '88 rubber bushed lateral links for rod end lateral links makes for a very nice handling rear suspension with great path accuracy. I haven't done it yet, but supposedly raising the inner pivots or lowering the outer pivots helps even more.

lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #21, 11-07-2019 09:03 AM
      Interesting info that I will have to keep in mind as I turn one of my Formulas into my next Seekonk Speedway car over the course of the next year. I've already started working on my high compression 3.5L rebuild...

Blacktree (m.blacktree@gmail.com) MSG #22, 11-08-2019 02:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will: Swapping the stock '88 rubber bushed lateral links for rod end lateral links makes for a very nice handling rear suspension with great path accuracy.

Been there, done that. And yes, it gives the car a "point and shoot" feel. In contrast, the earlier suspension (even when upgraded), can feel darty or twitchy.

One piece of advice, if you decide to use rod-end links in your '88 rear suspension: Keep the stock trailing link with the rubber bushings in it. There are 2 reasons for that. First, the rubber helps to absorb vibration. The strut absorbs vibration in the vertical (up/down) direction, and the trailing link absorbs vibration in the horizontal (front/back) direction. If you replace it with a rod-end link, NVH will increase dramatically. Second of all, the bolt that attaches the trailing link to the cradle is subject to a lot of shearing force. A rod-end trailing link will pound that bolt to pieces, literally. Rubber bushings will soften the blow on that bolt, so it doesn't get hammered to death.

[This message has been edited by Blacktree (edited 11-08-2019).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #23, 11-10-2019 06:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Blacktree:

Been there, done that. And yes, it gives the car a "point and shoot" feel. In contrast, the earlier suspension (even when upgraded), can feel darty or twitchy.

One piece of advice, if you decide to use rod-end links in your '88 rear suspension: Keep the stock trailing link with the rubber bushings in it. There are 2 reasons for that. First, the rubber helps to absorb vibration. The strut absorbs vibration in the vertical (up/down) direction, and the trailing link absorbs vibration in the horizontal (front/back) direction. If you replace it with a rod-end link, NVH will increase dramatically. Second of all, the bolt that attaches the trailing link to the cradle is subject to a lot of shearing force. A rod-end trailing link will pound that bolt to pieces, literally. Rubber bushings will soften the blow on that bolt, so it doesn't get hammered to death.



The outer pivot bolt in the lateral links is single shear as well. I use a 12mm class 10.9 bolt and pull it to 80 ftlbs. This is SIGNIFICANTLY higher than the stock torque. The stock outer pivot bolt torque is limited by the fact that the bushing center sleeves are rolled and butted instead of being welded or machined. Too much preload on the bolt with crush them and cause them to open up.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-10-2019).]