My 1988 LFX F40 build.
Topic started by: Daryl M, Date: 01-02-2019 10:42 PM
Original thread: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum2/HTML/142132.html


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #1, 01-02-2019 10:42 PM
      Since I finally have figured out how to post photos (I think), here is my progress so far. Most of these are mounting the engine/transmission to the cradle. The last few are the way I chose to get a VSS signal. Please be kind with comments. I'm old you know.
Daryl






















































Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #2, 01-02-2019 10:48 PM
      I would love to get my hands on a swap like this to help out. I envy you for your project.
Keep posting pictures for people like me who just love to see this stuff.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #3, 01-02-2019 10:51 PM
      Ok, so the pictures are small. Don't know why, but I will figure it out so future updates will be bigger. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Daryl


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #4, 01-02-2019 11:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Ok, so the pictures are small. Don't know why, but I will figure it out so future updates will be bigger. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Daryl


I would recommend that you ether replace the entire forward section of the cradle were your engine and transmission mounts are. OR at a minimum "box it in" by welding a thin plate of sheet to the bottom side. This boxed in section will stiffen the cradle to help it deal with more power. That section is a weak link in the cradle, and any cuts and material removal weakens it even more.
The rear section has it's own issues, but is harder to replace.
I have even seen a few of these sections cracking at the transmission and motor mount hols. Those sections are double thickness and still cracked.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 01-02-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #5, 01-02-2019 11:57 PM
      Although I did not box in the area, I did reinforce the areas that looked weak. I also plan on fabricating a better top mount to replace the dog bone.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #6, 01-03-2019 09:14 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Ok, so the pictures are small. Don't know why, but I will figure it out so future updates will be bigger. Any suggestions are appreciated.
Daryl


I just click on a picture and it takes me to your hosting site with a full size pic.Works fine , great progress so far.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #7, 01-03-2019 02:31 PM
      Thanks. I haven't done anything car related in 20+ years. Retirement drives one to extremes I guess.

Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #8, 01-03-2019 07:53 PM
      Nice build, Daryl. I've been following on FB, and your posts on here too.

I was thinking about doing this swap, but I'm not able to fabricate.
Probably will end up doing a 3900 instead, since it's more of a bolt-in.


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #9, 01-03-2019 10:31 PM
      It seems strange to go from working 5 days a week to stopping cold turkey... must be a shock.

My mom is doing a progressive retirement spanning a few years, so she's getting weaned off work slowly.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #10, 01-06-2019 07:50 PM
     



Over the last few days I have been figuring out the exhaust. Wish I was a better welder, but I am getting better.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #11, 01-12-2019 01:22 PM
      fallout new vegas all legendary creatures

The exhaust is coming together. To get it to go where I want it I may have to shrink the bottom of the trunk a bit, but the plan is to keep the exhaust low and back in an attempt to get heat out of the engine compartment.

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 01-12-2019).]

Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #12, 01-12-2019 09:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

fallout new vegas all legendary creatures

The exhaust is coming together. To get it to go where I want it I may have to shrink the bottom of the trunk a bit, but the plan is to keep the exhaust low and back in an attempt to get heat out of the engine compartment.


Just food for thought, I do not even have a muffler on my LS4 swap. I would see how it sounds and look into options before I cut out my trunk. That looks like a huge muffler, so maybe something else could save your trunk?


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #13, 01-13-2019 02:35 AM
      Rickady88GT, I get where you are coming from, but I really don't mind loosing the bottom 3-4inches of trunk if I have a car I can have a conversation in and listen to the radio.
Daryl


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #14, 01-13-2019 12:24 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Rickady88GT, I get where you are coming from, but I really don't mind loosing the bottom 3-4inches of trunk if I have a car I can have a conversation in and listen to the radio.
Daryl


LOL, OK I get it. But it is not as bad as it sounds. I have Corvette C5 resonated tips. They are not a muffler, but do calm it down. My LS4 used to set off car alarms in a parking lot when I started it. Yes that was a bit much, but I never got pulled over for sound ordinance enfractions because it only got loud at above half throttle. The car would start with a computer controlled blip of the throttle that would get a low frequency boom,.car alarms beware. BUT it does not do that any more. I added a small glass pack to each of the tips. This was made up of a single 12" glass pack that I cut in half, and welded directly to the back side of the tips. Basically I put a very small muffler in between the rear tire and the rear bumper in a void that seems perfect for a small muffler. Now the car is calm. But part of the reason it is so calm is a stock tune, cam and cats. If I were to got crazy with mods.......it would be loud.
I recommend at least trying it or looking into it before you cut out your trunk.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #15, 01-13-2019 01:47 PM
      I have an X-pipe and dual cats on my Northstar car. It's not Cadillac quiet by any stretch, but still conversable inside.

Your powertrain looks high on the cradle... maybe it's a trick of perspective, but it looks like the bottom of your oil pan is 3" or so above the bottom of the cradle. Is that to avoid additional cradle surgery for the bosses that would hit the forward crossmember or does the F40 transmission hit the left side rail if the try to go lower?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-13-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #16, 01-14-2019 11:08 AM
      Yes, it would be able to go about 1.5" lower with cradle surgery to clear the F40, but I didn't see the point.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #17, 01-14-2019 05:21 PM
      What muffler is that? If the internal configuration works, it might be easier to make the upper left connection the front bank inlet.

Does the 3.6 have a particularly shallow oil pan? I don't think I'd read that other engines could go lower when installed as low as they could be with an F40.

Edit: Food for thought on exhaust design: http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../000121-17.html#p660
X-pipe and dual cats fit WITHOUT cutting the trunk. Many tubing donuts were sacrificed to bring that to life.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-14-2019).]

Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #18, 01-14-2019 06:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Yes, it would be able to go about 1.5" lower with cradle surgery to clear the F40, but I didn't see the point.


Usually the issue is with deck lid clearance. You either cut and patch the deck lid or the cradle. That is, IF you run into clearance issues. I have had to cut a few deck lids for clearance issues.


olejoedad (welch.joe.714@gmail.com) MSG #19, 01-14-2019 07:53 PM
      Not only decklid clearance, but you need to keep the center of gravity as low as possible.
Yes, 1 1/2" makes a difference!
Bottom of the pan should be on the same plane as the bottom of the cradle side rails, if at all possible.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #20, 01-14-2019 10:57 PM
      The way it sits now, I have about 7/8" from the bottom of the oil pan to the bottom of the cradle. I had not actually measured before. Guess it isn't as bad as it looks.
As far as keeping weight low, I think I am doing better than many swaps that have cast iron block and heads.

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 01-14-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #21, 01-17-2019 02:43 AM
     

Does anyone know what these wires are? This is the AC/C compressor from my donor car (2013 Impala LFX engine). Two wires.
Thanks
Daryl


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #22, 01-17-2019 07:26 AM
      If those are the only wires going to the compresser, they would have to be the power feed.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #23, 01-17-2019 11:13 AM
      Compressor clutch connectors are usually next to the pulley. If the compressor clutch connector is elsewhere, this would be a pressure transducer. If this is the only connector on the compressor then, as noted above, it has to be the compressor clutch.

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #24, 01-17-2019 09:41 PM
      It is not the compressor clutch. The pressure sensor supposedly has 3 wires. This has two. I've found an entry in Rockauto's listing for an refrigerant temperature sensor, but I can't find a photo of it. Just looking for someone that knows for sure. Thanks.

msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #25, 01-18-2019 12:30 AM
      I've got the FSM for the XTS with LFX and LF3.. let me see if it uses the same compressor and if so find out what those wires are....


What color are the wires coming from the harness to the connector?


What other color wires are going into the compressor?

[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 01-18-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #26, 01-18-2019 03:07 AM
      According to the Rock Auto site the XTS and Impala don't use the same compressor until 2017 model year. I won't be able to check wire colors for a few days, but I will do it when I can.

msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #27, 01-18-2019 11:26 AM
      Yep... I quickly found that out as well.... but it sure looks like an AC variable displacement solenoid valve especially given it relative location to the refrigerant lines. As Will asked, is there also another set of wires coming out of the compressor?

[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 01-18-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #28, 01-18-2019 01:46 PM
      The clutch has wires going to it, but these are the only wires that actually connect to the compressor. Do you know how the variable servo works? How many wires go to that type of servo?

msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #29, 01-18-2019 03:58 PM
      I'm not an expert on VDC's by far and these to links will give you far better explanations than I could give..

https://axleaddict.com/auto...lacement-Compressors
and

https://axleaddict.com/auto...r/vdcadjustorconvert

the older are diaphragm controlled and the newer are electronically controlled through PWM... no idea which yours or the one on mine are yet... probably electronic however given the late model's they are..


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #30, 01-18-2019 11:47 PM
      MS Weldon in, thanks for the info. This will help allot.

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 01-19-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #31, 01-20-2019 02:46 PM
      I just removed and modified the variable displacement control servo, so now my A/C compressor should be no longer variable.

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #32, 01-20-2019 06:11 PM
     




According to the instructions I was to solder the opening on the end closed.

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 01-20-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #33, 01-22-2019 03:05 PM
     


Fitting brake mods today.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #34, 01-22-2019 03:23 PM
     




Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #35, 01-22-2019 03:39 PM
     
I set up this up compensating for proper ride height just to look at axle angles and such. Anyone see anything I should look at? This is the first swap I've done so don't be shy.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #36, 01-22-2019 05:59 PM
      What axles are you using again?

If the combo hasn't been tried before, you may want to cycle the suspension through its full range of motion to make sure you don't run out of inner CV joint plunge depth... in either direction.
Although that will be difficult to verify without the upper strut attachment in place.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-22-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #37, 01-22-2019 06:25 PM
      Will, already checked for that. Kept the hub face perpendicular to the floor. Moved through the range of motion without moving too far in or out. I think I am OK there, but thanks for the suggestion. That would be a problem if missed.

fieroguru MSG #38, 01-22-2019 06:33 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

What axles are you using again?

If the combo hasn't been tried before, you may want to cycle the suspension through its full range of motion to make sure you don't run out of inner CV joint plunge depth... in either direction.
Although that will be difficult to verify without the upper strut attachment in place.



Even if the axle setup has been used before, placement of transmission could be different, so it is always good to cycle and verify no binding or over extension. Ideally I like to do this with the tripot boots removed. To do this, install the drivetrain with the suspension, but leave the springs off the struts. Then you can raise and lower the suspension while turning the wheel bearing by hand.

Here is a sample picture of verifying this on the driver side.




pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #39, 01-22-2019 08:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Although that will be difficult to verify without the upper strut attachment in place.


Maybe Daryl needs to put the engine + cradle into the car to perform this verification.

I as progress in my own engine build (not even a swap), I'm arriving at the conclusion that I will need to temporarily install and then remove the engine + cradle a few times, just to take measurements and see how things are fitting.


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #40, 01-22-2019 09:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


Maybe Daryl needs to put the engine + cradle into the car to perform this verification.

I as progress in my own engine build (not even a swap), I'm arriving at the conclusion that I will need to temporarily install and then remove the engine + cradle a few times, just to take measurements and see how things are fitting.

This is true. There is no way you could get an accurate measurement on the axle length/tolerance. As has been said, take the springs off of the struts and install the drive train and entire suspension. Then lift the suspension up all the way to the bump stop and turn the wheel hub the entire time as you lift the suspension. I used a floor jack and from full droop to bump stop, check many times that no binding grinding or (in the case of a short axle) make sure it does not fall out of the tripot. Do this several times on each side. And it is great advice to have the boots off aswell.
My engine swaps went in and out easily a dozen times checking for this or that.


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #41, 01-22-2019 09:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Will, already checked for that. Kept the hub face perpendicular to the floor. Moved through the range of motion without moving too far in or out. I think I am OK there, but thanks for the suggestion. That would be a problem if missed.


The hub face does not stay in one plane as it travels up and down. It actually goes in and out as it goes up and down. It also changes camber as well. The safest way to check is to install the drive train as guru has advised.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #42, 01-22-2019 11:55 PM
      How many degrees does it change?

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #43, 01-23-2019 12:00 AM
      Rickady88GT why do you think there is no way to calculate how the travel of the suspension affects the axle? It's just math and geometry. It is measurable and predictable.

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #44, 01-23-2019 08:37 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
It's just math and geometry. It is measurable and predictable.


Well of course... but you may run into difficulties if you try to implement that strategy in practice.
You'll have to measure everything... including pick-up points on the car.
The accuracy of the result will depend on the accumulation of measurement uncertainties for each part.
Depending on the accumulated uncertainties, the accuracy may be useless for what you're trying to compute (but that's an analysis for you to perform).

Or, you can do the empirical measurement which tests the drivetrain as it shall be used.

The 3rd alternative is to roll the dice and not do any further verification.

It's up to you.

We don't have the luxury of a 3D CAD file of the Fiero, or even the paper drawings used in Fiero's design (which pre-dated CAD).
When you don't have the CAD, you have to modify your work methods accordingly.


fieroguru MSG #45, 01-23-2019 08:45 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Rickady88GT why do you think there is no way to calculate how the travel of the suspension affects the axle? It's just math and geometry. It is measurable and predictable.


You could spend days detailing all the critical parts of the components (tripod lobs, tripod housings, strut travel limits, pivot points for all the suspension components, etc) and then use some cad system to cycle to the limits to verify, but then the accuracy of the result will be in how precise you did the modeling. In 30 minutes or less you can verify the actual install and know exactly what you have.

The tripots are where most of the issues arise. As the angle increases, the lobes can bottom out inside the tripod housing, over extend and come out of the tripot housing, or the axle shaft could interfere with the tripot housing directly. This is why I like to do this check with the tripot boots removed and the grease cleaned out so I can better see what is going on. Iin the picture above, I actually had to cut the first set of grooves off the tripod housing to make it shorter so it would clear the axle.

A lot of people over the years skip this step and they drive the car for a long time w/o issue. Then one day they hit a large bump, go over some rough tracks, or encounter something that causes the suspension to either hit the compression or extension limit, bind the tripot, and break the tripod, axle, or transmission case. Any custom swap really should have this checked to avoid issues at a later date.

Even if everything clears, you need to leave some clearance for the drivetrain movement on the mounts under acceleration and engine braking.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-23-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #46, 01-23-2019 12:24 PM
      Yes, I do get the importance and the variables involved. Thanks for the feedback. I did take all of the points you have mentioned into account when making the mounts. I would be interested in how much camber does change through the span of travel of the suspension. I can't imagine it is more than 5 or 6 degrees, but I haven't measured it. I could be way off.

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #47, 01-23-2019 12:40 PM
     







Next issue, the LFX from the Impala had a 2 wire oil pressure sender. The new programming on the ECM calls for a 3 wire unit. I think the 2 wire is for cars with idiot lights and the 3 wire for a guage. I'm showing photos of the engine where the sender lives. As it turns out I now need two senders, one to feed info to the ECM and one to feed the Fiero oil pressure guage. Also, the original Impala sender had 16mm threads, the Camaro that I have to use to match the ECM is 14mm. The Fiero sender is 14mm tapered pipe thread I think. I ordered the adapter shown to adapt the Camaro sender, but am still considering my options for where to put the Fiero sender. As I see it one option is to drill and tap one side of the adapter and mount it there. Does anyone have other ideas? Are there other places on the LFX that can be used for oil pressure?
Thanks in advance for your help.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #48, 01-23-2019 01:28 PM
      Do you not have diagrams? Why are you not certain where that wire goes? If the Camaro sensor has a 0-90 ohm pressure transducer in it, it should drive the Fiero gauge just fine.

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #49, 01-23-2019 02:24 PM
      Will
I'm not wondering about the wires. I want to know if there is another place on the engine to get oil pressure from. Two sensors at the stock location is a bit tight space wise.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #50, 01-23-2019 02:27 PM
      Will, are you saying that using one transducer to feed the ECM and the stock Fiero gauges will not interfere with one another?

fieroguru MSG #51, 01-23-2019 02:31 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Yes, I do get the importance and the variables involved. Thanks for the feedback. I did take all of the points you have mentioned into account when making the mounts. I would be interested in how much camber does change through the span of travel of the suspension. I can't imagine it is more than 5 or 6 degrees, but I haven't measured it. I could be way off.


If you haven't seen it yet, check out Bloozberry's build thread in the construction zone. He took the time to document in great detail the front and rear suspension coordinates for the 88 fiero and with the help of another member Zac88GT was able to run them through a suspension analyzer program.

http://www.fiero.nl/forum/F.../HTML/000116-13.html

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-23-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #52, 01-23-2019 02:47 PM
      Guru
That is just what I wanted to see. If I read this correctly the camber changes about 3 degrees through the range of motion. If that is all it varies, I am golden.
Thanks for posting

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 01-23-2019).]

Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #53, 01-23-2019 07:59 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Guru
That is just what I wanted to see. If I read this correctly the camber changes about 3 degrees through the range of motion. If that is all it varies, I am golden.
Thanks for posting



What guru has not mentioned is that he offers a kit that helps to minimize that camber change. He can tell you the details.
(I have it on both of my 88s.)
I will include the link.
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum4/HTML/060635.html

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 01-23-2019).]

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #54, 01-23-2019 08:24 PM
      If you decide to use it, your Fiero sender is 1/4" NPT. If you need a Fiero sender, the 88 Fiero senders are considered better / more reliable, so consider that as an option.

The main difficulty I see with drilling and tapping the adapter is that in order to intersect the longitudinal passage, the hole you drill can't be very deep, so as to avoid drilling through to the other side.
Therefore, you may need to start cutting with a regular tap, and then switch over to a bottoming tap.

Edit: you could even cut a thread off the end of the tap every time you cut the hole one thread deeper.

Also, I suppose that the sender would point upwards, and that looks close to the exhaust pipe, so it may need a shield.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 01-23-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #55, 01-24-2019 12:31 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:
If you decide to use it, your Fiero sender is 1/4" NPT. If you need a Fiero sender, the 88 Fiero senders are considered better / more reliable, so consider that as an option.

The main difficulty I see with drilling and tapping the adapter is that in order to intersect the longitudinal passage, the hole you drill can't be very deep, so as to avoid drilling through to the other side.
Therefore, you may need to start cutting with a regular tap, and then switch over to a bottoming tap.


Edit: you could even cut a thread off the end of the tap every time you cut the hole one thread deeper.

Also, I suppose that the sender would point upwards, and that looks close to the exhaust pipe, so it may need a shield.


Good info! Thanks! I will need to prefit the adapter so I know which side is up when tight. I was hoping there would be somewhere else on the engine to pull oil pressure from, but I don't see an obvious place and I've gotten no tips from the forum, so I guess I just have to fit both sensors in that small space.

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 01-24-2019).]

fieroguru MSG #56, 01-24-2019 09:22 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Good info! Thanks! I will need to prefit the adapter so I know which side is up when tight. I was hoping there would be somewhere else on the engine to pull oil pressure from, but I don't see an obvious place and I've gotten no tips from the forum, so I guess I just have to fit both sensors in that small space.



Have you tried to remove the oil filter housing? Once it is off, you might see another oil boss, or a flat part that would be easier to tap for a sensor. Depending on how the housing seals to the block, you might be able to make a flat spacer and drill/tap it for the second oil sensor. You might also find that some of the other oil filter housings from other high feature engines are easier to add an oil sensor port to.

There are also spin on filter extensions that allow room for oil cooler as well as oil ports. One of those might fit the filter assy as well.

You can also inspect the sides and ends of the block looking for caps or plugs that might have access to the oil galleys in the block.

So there are several other paths you could explore to mount the 2nd sensor.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 01-24-2019).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #57, 01-24-2019 03:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Will, are you saying that using one transducer to feed the ECM and the stock Fiero gauges will not interfere with one another?


The ECM input will have an impedance ~100k ohm. It won't interfere with the gauge. Does the ECM control a variable displacement oil pump based on this sensor's output? I haven't heard of the LFX having a variable displacement oil pump, but I could be wrong.

So GM has finally started giving the ECMs an oil pressure sensor? All other applications I've seen run the oil pressure sensor wires straight to the dash. I guess if they go to the ECM, then the ECM can put them on the CANBus for the instrument panel to read. If that's all it does, hook them both up to the same sensor.

However, if the ECM controls a variable displacement oil pump, then you probably want to find a spot for another sensor. I don't know if GM would have made significant updates to the sensor in order to make it reliable or precise enough to control the pump.

Basically almost all (if I say "all", FieroGuru will find one that doesn't...) GM oil pressure senders are essentially the same: 0-90 Ohms, just like a fuel level sender. How they're packaged isn't relevant to how they operate. The Caddy Northstar and Olds Aurora units, for example, had larger pipe threads than the other units GM built. Weird.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 01-24-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #58, 01-24-2019 09:36 PM
      Will,
Thanks for the info. That's what I love about this forum. I learn so much.


thesameguy (justin@slashpub.net) MSG #59, 01-25-2019 01:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:
There are also spin on filter extensions that allow room for oil cooler as well as oil ports. One of those might fit the filter assy as well.


I like the sandwich plate idea - a small external oil cooler might not be a bad idea. Setrab/Mocal makes a sandwich plate with a built-in thermostat.

You could also use a manifold block, but there's a good chance you'd need an adapter or to rethread one since you probably won't find one with the threads you need. Most manifolds are aluminum, so rethreading is pretty easy. Just be sure the sensors you are using a two wire sensors, as an aluminum manifold will offer a crap ground path.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #60, 01-25-2019 10:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:


I like the sandwich plate idea - a small external oil cooler might not be a bad idea. Setrab/Mocal makes a sandwich plate with a built-in thermostat.

You could also use a manifold block, but there's a good chance you'd need an adapter or to rethread one since you probably won't find one with the threads you need. Most manifolds are aluminum, so rethreading is pretty easy. Just be sure the sensors you are using a two wire sensors, as an aluminum manifold will offer a crap ground path.

The sensors have 3 wires.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #61, 01-28-2019 09:21 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

The sensors have 3 wires.


Two of those terminals are for the oil pressure switch that provides the parallel path to energize the fuel pump. The third wire is for the gauge sender and grounds through the housing.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #62, 01-28-2019 06:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Two of those terminals are for the oil pressure switch that provides the parallel path to energize the fuel pump. The third wire is for the gauge sender and grounds through the housing.


Thanks for the info. I'm still learning this stuff. So why do you say aluminum gives a poor ground?


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #63, 01-29-2019 12:07 PM
     

Just finished fitting the exhaust. Now on to wrapping it.


thesameguy (justin@slashpub.net) MSG #64, 01-29-2019 04:26 PM
      That looks great!

pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #65, 01-29-2019 10:00 PM
      What's the piece of cardboard for? Is it to simulate the frame rail, so that you can build things on the engine without having to put it in the car to check for interference with the rail?

On an unrelated note, they really don't make intake manifolds nice-looking nowadays... my friend's Subaru looks like that with the ribbing to keep the manifold from imploding.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 01-29-2019).]

La fiera MSG #66, 01-29-2019 10:11 PM
      Bravo!!! Nice job!!

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #67, 01-30-2019 12:35 AM
      The cardboard is the start of a pattern for shift cable bracket. (Next project)

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 01-30-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #68, 01-30-2019 12:41 AM
      No, the intake manifolds don't look to great, but making it out of plastic and redesigning the heads saved 20 pounds. The LFX weighs about the same as the stock 2.8.

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #69, 01-30-2019 12:21 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

On an unrelated note, they really don't make intake manifolds nice-looking nowadays... my friend's Subaru looks like that with the ribbing to keep the manifold from imploding.



 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

No, the intake manifolds don't look to great, but making it out of plastic and redesigning the heads saved 20 pounds. The LFX weighs about the same as the stock 2.8.


Was there a plastic manifold for any LLT application?

One can build headers for an LLT, but not for an LFX.


msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #70, 01-30-2019 04:56 PM
      Will, no plastic intakes for any LLT's, they were introduced on the LFX's and on with the LGX. Only exceptions were the LF3 and LF4 with the integrated IC's

Daryl,

FieroGuru makes a very nice shift bracket and cables for the F40 setup.. I have a set and have test fit the bracket only thus far.

also

The camaro LFX intake manifold, although still plastic and ribbed, should be able to be reversed and utilized and V8Roadsters makes a nice carbon fiber cover for it..


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #71, 01-30-2019 10:14 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

Will, no plastic intakes for any LLT's, they were introduced on the LFX's and on with the LGX. Only exceptions were the LF3 and LF4 with the integrated IC's

Daryl,

FieroGuru makes a very nice shift bracket and cables for the F40 setup.. I have a set and have test fit the bracket only thus far.

also

The camaro LFX intake manifold, although still plastic and ribbed, should be able to be reversed and utilized and V8Roadsters makes a nice carbon fiber cover for it..


Yes, I know he does, but i'm really having fun fabricating. I never knew it was so much fun .
So is there a big problem with using the stock Impala intake? I seems yo fit the space well and allows for over 300 hp.

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 01-30-2019).]

fieroguru MSG #72, 01-30-2019 10:26 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:


Yes, I know he does, but i'm really having fun fabricating. I never knew it was so much fun .


Whatever route you take, don't use a Getrag Select cable for the shift cable... The shift motion puts it beyond the usable limit, which will cause buckling on aggressive 2-3 upshifts and you will eventually break it... that is how I ended up with my current solution that has been rock solid going on 5 years and 40K miles.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #73, 01-30-2019 10:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Whatever route you take, don't use a Getrag Select cable for the shift cable... The shift motion puts it beyond the usable limit, which will cause buckling on aggressive 2-3 upshifts and you will eventually break it... that is how I ended up with my current solution that has been rock solid going on 5 years and 40K miles.


Sorry for being so uninformed, but which cable is the Select and what is the other cable called. I really need to learn the names of these parts.



fieroguru MSG #74, 01-30-2019 11:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
Sorry for being so uninformed, but which cable is the Select and what is the other cable called. I really need to learn the names of these parts.


Shift cable is for the front to back movement at the shifter. It connects to the ball end on the large lever with the counter weight and rotates the shift shaft at the transmission.
Select cable is for the side to side movement at the shifter. It connects to the ball end on the metal bracket right next to the shift shaft and moves the shift shaft in and out of the transmission.

The shift cable is the one that is abused during aggressive upshifts.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #75, 01-31-2019 08:58 AM
      Thanks for the explanation Guru. I looked at your site just now. You are a talented guy.

mender MSG #76, 01-31-2019 10:29 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:
The camaro LFX intake manifold, although still plastic and ribbed, should be able to be reversed and utilized and V8Roadsters makes a nice carbon fiber cover for it..

I recall looking into that and at the time felt that the Camaro intake wouldn't fit when reversed because of interference with other stuff. I didn't actually try it though.

I have the Impala intake and have filled and ported it. No flow or dyno tests yet but it should be adequate.



msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #77, 01-31-2019 10:44 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by mender:

I recall looking into that and at the time felt that the Camaro intake wouldn't fit when reversed because of interference with other stuff. I didn't actually try it though.

I have the Impala intake and have filled and ported it. No flow or dyno tests yet but it should be adequate.


You are probably correct... "can" it fit? probably, but one may have to pull other items off the camaro LFX to do so, valve covers, etc... as far as it being reversed all I have is anecdotal statements from miata owners performing an lfx swap and pics of the lower intake manifold bolt pattern.

[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 01-31-2019).]

thesameguy (justin@slashpub.net) MSG #78, 01-31-2019 05:24 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:
The camaro LFX intake manifold, although still plastic and ribbed, should be able to be reversed and utilized and V8Roadsters makes a nice carbon fiber cover for it..


This just blew my mind. I did not know LFX Miatas were a thing.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #79, 01-31-2019 06:29 PM
      Check out Monster Miatas. LS motors too.

Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #80, 01-31-2019 07:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

This just blew my mind. I did not know LFX Miatas were a thing.


3.5 Honda Miatas have been a thing for several years. I have no trouble picturing an LFX...


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #81, 02-01-2019 08:07 AM
      Hondas V6's have 90 degree bank angles. Given the Miata's engine bay, the narrower bank angle of the LFX probably fits better.

thesameguy (justin@slashpub.net) MSG #82, 02-01-2019 11:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

Check out Monster Miatas. LS motors too.


Yeah, V8 Miatas are well-established - I was surprised to see a modern V6 used, and intrigued by the idea of the electronics they're using to run it! If that software exists, it's good news to anyone who wants to put an LFX where it doesn't belong.


msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #83, 02-01-2019 02:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:


Yeah, V8 Miatas are well-established - I was surprised to see a modern V6 used, and intrigued by the idea of the electronics they're using to run it! If that software exists, it's good news to anyone who wants to put an LFX where it doesn't belong.


V8Roadsters and another outfit in Canada sell an LFX harness using the stock ECU modified enough to run the engine more or less by itself without the BCM and CANBUS yet still tunable by HPTuners.... I've spoken with the guys at V8Roadsters about a year ago for an LFX harness configured for the Fiero, i.e. layout for our mid engined setup and they have no problems configuring their harness as such..


Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #84, 02-01-2019 03:30 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:


V8Roadsters and another outfit in Canada sell an LFX harness using the stock ECU modified enough to run the engine more or less by itself without the BCM and CANBUS yet still tunable by HPTuners.... I've spoken with the guys at V8Roadsters about a year ago for an LFX harness configured for the Fiero, i.e. layout for our mid engined setup and they have no problems configuring their harness as such..


If plug and play LFX engine swap harnesses come available for the Fiero, I would imagine that they would sell but they would have to include the automatic that is part of the powertrain. As the years progress, we can't just continue to use 10-15 yr old engine technology that in many case will be high mileage and/or heavily worn. LFX engines are now the modern choice and very plentiful. Seems a logical choice for new Fiero swaps. Those engines are light weight and they provide 300-325 HP stock .



Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #85, 02-01-2019 05:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:
If plug and play LFX engine swap harnesses come available for the Fiero, I would imagine that they would sell but they would have to include the automatic that is part of the powertrain. As the years progress, we can't just continue to use 10-15 yr old engine technology that in many case will be high mileage and/or heavily worn. LFX engines are now the modern choice and very plentiful. Seems a logical choice for new Fiero swaps. Those engines are light weight and they provide 300-325 HP stock .



I think that most of the stand-alones are geared toward manual swaps, but I don't see any reason (which may be short-sighted of me) that an automatic LFX PCM - from an Impala, for example - couldn't be "de-contented" in a manner similar to what's being done with the manual setup. Unless the automatic is dependent upon BCM stuff to function, that is.
I'm betting it could be made to work, with a little research.
(I think it would actually make a nice swap. My wife's mom has an LY7 with a longitudinal 6 speed auto (6L70?) in a CTS. I have often thought it would feel good in a Fiero. Configuration notwithstanding.)


thesameguy (justin@slashpub.net) MSG #86, 02-01-2019 05:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:
I think that most of the stand-alones are geared toward manual swaps, but I don't see any reason (which may be short-sighted of me) that an automatic LFX PCM - from an Impala, for example - couldn't be "de-contented" in a manner similar to what's being done with the manual setup. Unless the automatic is dependent upon BCM stuff to function, that is.


Yes, this. I DGAF about the automatic... I would definitely go in for an LFX harness with an LFX ECM with a tune for standalone operation. TAKE MY MONEY.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #87, 02-01-2019 05:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


I think that most of the stand-alones are geared toward manual swaps, but I don't see any reason (which may be short-sighted of me) that an automatic LFX PCM - from an Impala, for example - couldn't be "de-contented" in a manner similar to what's being done with the manual setup. Unless the automatic is dependent upon BCM stuff to function, that is.
I'm betting it could be made to work, with a little research.
(I think it would actually make a nice swap. My wife's mom has an LY7 with a longitudinal 6 speed auto (6L70?) in a CTS. I have often thought it would feel good in a Fiero. Configuration notwithstanding.)


According to Ryan (aka Darthfiero) THE BCM IS ALSO needed do a the automatic. That was one factor that I considered when I decided on the F40.


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #88, 02-01-2019 07:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

According to Ryan (aka Darthfiero) THE BCM IS ALSO needed do a the automatic. That was one factor that I considered when I decided on the F40.


Ah. Okay. Doesn't surprise me. Disappointed a bit (the automatic is that good) but not surprised.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 02-01-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #89, 02-01-2019 09:10 PM
      My question is, does needing the BCM cause that many problems? With the BCM, the ECM and the Transmission Control Unit, there is more to mess with, but it should be possible. ABS, SRS, and Traction Control would have to be disabled, but the donor car instruments could be used. The Impala had a 160 mph speedo. That would be cool. The other possible issue I see is the physical size of the tranny. It is bigger than a manual and may require a shoe horn and a big hammer to make it fit.

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #90, 02-01-2019 11:05 PM
      My ecotec swap basically has the entire wiring harness from a 2004 Cavalier, minus the lighting bits. It was easy, and the BCM was not a problem. If you have the fuel pump and harness from the donor car, it is all just plug and play. In my case, the fiero module is not even in my car.



fieroguru MSG #91, 02-02-2019 10:06 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
My question is, does needing the BCM cause that many problems? With the BCM, the ECM and the Transmission Control Unit, there is more to mess with, but it should be possible. ABS, SRS, and Traction Control would have to be disabled, but the donor car instruments could be used. The Impala had a 160 mph speedo. That would be cool. The other possible issue I see is the physical size of the tranny. It is bigger than a manual and may require a shoe horn and a big hammer to make it fit.


Adding the BCM is just more wiring and other supporting modules. It will take more time and the wiring will be more complicated, but fundamentally not a huge deal. Many people are already adding auxiliary modules for auto sensing head lights, remote door locks, retained accessory power, etc... the BCM allows all those features and more (like newer instrument clusters & newer HVAC control systems). It all depends on which supporting modules you want to add.

For the auto swap, you will need feedback from a brake pedal sensor (start circuit, TCC lockup, cruise, etc), and those are now separate modules that feed information directly to the BCM. The BCM collects information from the brake sensor module and sends it to the ECM/TCM through the GM LAN wires. The later model ECMs (and some calibration applications) don't have direct wiring points for some of this sensor information, which is why the BCMs are being required more and more.

Tuning out the extra modules not used (like ABS, HVAC, etc) shouldn't be difficult, but might require a specific tuning software.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #92, 02-02-2019 07:23 PM
      Does the transmission care if traction control is operative?

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #93, 02-02-2019 07:34 PM
      I have HP tuners. Some things can be simply turned off, other things you just fake out by changing the parameters. My donor car was a manual, so it came with the traction control not turned off but with it set to come on at 10,000 rpm. There are other transmission parameters that were worked around in a similar manner. So this OS (from a 2004 cavalier) was probably used for both automatic and manual equipped cars. HP Tuners has a great website and forum where you can find out exactly what it can do for your vehicle.

fieroguru MSG #94, 02-03-2019 09:53 AM
      Generally speaking, traction control uses the ABS sensors on the wheels, vehicle speed from the transmission VSS, the BCM to help send information between modules, and the ECM to adjust timing and override control of the DBW. There are other sensors/modules in play, but those are the main ones.

Without the BCM, most swaps will need to go into the traction control and abuse control tables and either zero them out or raise the activation speed/rpm to effectively disable. With the missing input from the wheel sensors, at large throttle openings, the ecm can determine the missing data as wheel slip and intervene by closing the throttle or lowering the timing to reduce power.

The available tables and ability to edit information is largely ecm and calibration specific, so you really need to get the ecm, HP Tuners or your tuning package of choice, and see what table are there and your ability to change the values.


RacerX11 (mdurbanc@yahoo.com) MSG #95, 02-04-2019 04:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Hondas V6's have 90 degree bank angles. Given the Miata's engine bay, the narrower bank angle of the LFX probably fits better.

Only the older C-series Honda V6's are 90 degree. The J-series are 60 degree, and fit the Miata just fine.


RacerX11 (mdurbanc@yahoo.com) MSG #96, 02-04-2019 04:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

Will, no plastic intakes for any LLT's, they were introduced on the LFX's and on with the LGX.


The later LLT's in the Lambda chassis SUV's used the LFX plastic upper intake with an adapter.

Marty



msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #97, 02-04-2019 05:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RacerX11:


The later LLT's in the Lambda chassis SUV's used the LFX plastic upper intake with an adapter.

Marty


Thanks for the correction...


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #98, 02-04-2019 05:22 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RacerX11:


The later LLT's in the Lambda chassis SUV's used the LFX plastic upper intake with an adapter.

Marty


Oh, snazzy!



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #99, 02-06-2019 12:04 AM
     



Ok, time to tap the community mind. I got my 88 in pieces and didn't see it when it had the engine in it. This cable and bracket was hanging in the engine compartment. The other end seems to go to the very front of the console tunnel. It is difficult to see just where, but it appears to be hooked to nothing? Does anyone know what it is ? The car is a 1988 and had an Isuzu transmission in it. Anything else I would tell you would be a guess.
Thanks,
Daryl


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #100, 02-06-2019 01:17 PM
      I did a test fit this morning just to make sure it is all going to fit. So far I think I'm pretty happy, that is until I find that first thing that I didn't notice.😝







































msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #101, 02-06-2019 01:38 PM
      How much clearance do you have between the valve covers and the front firewall and trunk forward wall?

After looking at your pics closely my biggest lf3 fear looks true... Not enough room to fit the stock compressor to IC pipes......plenty of room down below...just not up top........


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #102, 02-06-2019 04:08 PM
      It clears the hinge box? That's pretty awesome. 3.4 TDC doesn't even do that.
And clears the right strut tower in an '88.

Did you remove the chassis side dogbone mount or was that done before you bought the car?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-06-2019).]

thesameguy (justin@slashpub.net) MSG #103, 02-06-2019 04:32 PM
      Wow.... I thought an M30 in an E30 was tight, but that's incredible.

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #104, 02-06-2019 04:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

It clears the hinge box? That's pretty awesome. 3.4 TDC doesn't even do that.
And clears the right strut tower in an '88.

Did you remove the chassis side dogbone mount or was that done before you bought the car?



Yes, the dog bone mount had to go. I took it out after the test fit in December. I still plan on finishing the complete tear down and clean up before the finish assembly, but these test fits sure do help me get an idea of what to do next.



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #105, 02-06-2019 04:50 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

How much clearance do you have between the valve covers and the front firewall and trunk forward wall?

After looking at your pics closely my biggest lf3 fear looks true... Not enough room to fit the stock compressor to IC pipes......plenty of room down below...just not up top........


It is pretty tight in both places up top. The heat shields had to go, but there is room to insulate with the aluminized blanket stuff. You are correct about the room down lower. I did sacrifice the bottom 5" of the trunk so I could do a relatively quiet muffler. To be honest, I don't think I'll miss it. My 87 GT has a removable shelf that sets in about half way down. I seldom use the bottom half.



fieroguru MSG #106, 02-06-2019 05:39 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:



That is the stock 2.8 throttle cable. You need small hands and the center console skeleton removed to take the other end out.

[This message has been edited by fieroguru (edited 02-06-2019).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #107, 02-06-2019 05:40 PM
      Looks great for a first test. The cable you were asking about looks like a throttle cable. Not really sure though. Keep up the good work and thanks for posting the pics.

fieroguru MSG #108, 02-06-2019 05:46 PM
      The engine looks good in there with plenty of room in most of the areas. I like how the air intake and several of the hose connections point forward... almost like it was designed to fit in there.

The only thing I noticed was the AC line missing from the compressor and the huge cat in its path to the passenger side of the car. It might take some creative routing and some good insulation, but nothing too difficult.

I am not a fan of engine covers, but that intake either needs smoothed or covered in my opinion.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #109, 02-06-2019 06:23 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

The engine looks good in there with plenty of room in most of the areas. I like how the air intake and several of the hose connections point forward... almost like it was designed to fit in there.

The only thing I noticed was the AC line missing from the compressor and the huge cat in its path to the passenger side of the car. It might take some creative routing and some good insulation, but nothing too difficult.

I am not a fan of engine covers, but that intake either needs smoothed or covered in my opinion.


Guru, I agree that the engine isn't pretty, but that will come later.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #110, 02-06-2019 06:26 PM
     



This is my solution for the oil pressure senders. Jus have to thread the 16mm part that screws into the engine.


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #111, 02-06-2019 07:06 PM
      Engine fits like a glove.

Handy to have a lathe around, isn't it?

I've been using my dad's lathe for the last few weekends straight that I've been working on my car.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #112, 02-06-2019 10:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

Engine fits like a glove.

Handy to have a lathe around, isn't it?

I've been using my dad's lathe for the last few weekends straight that I've been working on my car.


Yes, having a proper shop is wonderful! This is the first time in my life I've had a real shop to work in. Retirement is proving to be quite fun! I just wish I was better at using the tools I now have.


Dennis LaGrua (dlagrua@comcast.net) MSG #113, 02-07-2019 06:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:


According to Ryan (aka Darthfiero) THE BCM IS ALSO needed do a the automatic. That was one factor that I considered when I decided on the F40.


According to a guy on You Tube that has done LFX swaps on trucks, he has been able to make the powertrain work and shift with an auto, I believe without the BCM.
BTW, nice job on the fit.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #114, 02-07-2019 09:15 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Dennis LaGrua:


According to a guy on You Tube that has done LFX swaps on trucks, he has been able to make the powertrain work and shift with an auto, I believe without the BCM.
BTW, nice job on the fit.


Thanks Dennis. Btw another consideration for the automatic is the size of the tranny. I didn't actually test fit it, but it did seem to be bigger than the available space. I did wonder if the Impala cradle and suspension could just be bolted to the Fiero.



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #115, 02-08-2019 07:40 PM
     

I just received the ends I am going to try for shift cables on my swap. Sticking with my plan to make as much as I can myself and only buy stuff when I can't do it myself. I cut the old ends from the cables that were on my Fiero and threaded the ends. These 10mm ends seem to fit the F40 transmission and thread onto the cables . If they work, great. If not, I spent a whopping $16.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #116, 02-12-2019 08:26 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by thesameguy:

Wow.... I thought an M30 in an E30 was tight, but that's incredible.


Lol... you should see a Northstar in the engine bay. The LFX swap is spacious.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 02-12-2019).]

Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #117, 02-12-2019 12:04 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Lol... you should see a Northstar in the engine bay. The LFX swap is spacious.



The "sort star" v6 Northstar (LX5) is a huge chunk as well. But did fit.







Notice that the front Valve cover is under the deck lid and rear window, hidden from view.

[This message has been edited by Rickady88GT (edited 02-12-2019).]

iluvsd619 (luv6192000@yahoo.com) MSG #118, 02-12-2019 12:16 PM
      Im so glad to see this swap getting done. I have been wanting to this for awhile. Can't wait to see and hear it drive. Great job!

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #119, 02-12-2019 01:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RacerX11:

Only the older C-series Honda V6's are 90 degree. The J-series are 60 degree, and fit the Miata just fine.


Interesting. Thanks!
Gives me evil thoughts dropping the current 3.5 into an NSX with twin turbos...


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #120, 02-12-2019 02:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:

The "sort star" v6 Northstar (LX5) is a huge chunk as well. But did fit.







Notice that the front Valve cover is under the deck lid and rear window, hidden from view.



The 90 degree bank angle is basically similar between the two engines in terms of clearance to the firewall and trunk wall, but you have WAY more clearance to the strut tower.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #121, 02-12-2019 02:31 PM
     





Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #122, 02-12-2019 02:32 PM
     



The two oil pressure senders did fit.


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #123, 02-12-2019 08:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:





The two oil pressure senders did fit.

I did the same exact thing for my LX5 conversion. But the LS4 did not need an extra sensor, I used the donor car gauges. They run on a different type of system that allows me to run axillary gauges without any extra sensors. Yours runs the same way, but if you don't use the donor gauges and BCM it won't work.
Doing swaps is a game of picking and choosing your battles.

Thanks for the many pictures, I love those. I would have loved to have done this swap.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #124, 02-15-2019 12:53 PM
     



Here's how the test fit of the shift cables looks.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #125, 02-15-2019 01:45 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:






Can you plug the connector into the vertical sensor as it sits or will you have to remove that dogbone mount?
I @$$ume you're going to remove the dogbone mount anyway, but I can't tell if any of it also supports the accessory drive and will have to stay.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #126, 02-15-2019 01:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Can you plug the connector into the vertical sensor as it sits or will you have to remove that dogbone mount?
I @$$ume you're going to remove the dogbone mount anyway, but I can't tell if any of it also supports the accessory drive and will have to stay.

Actually it all fits nicely. I plan on using the dog bone mount to secure the engine.


msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #127, 02-15-2019 03:58 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Actually it all fits nicely. I plan on using the dog bone mount to secure the engine.


what are your plans to use that mount at that location to help secure the engine... the firewall isn't thick enough and the next closest bulkhead area would be the frame rail or the shock tower.. and the side mount bracket would be far better to start from... I'm only asking this because I've been staring at a similar engine for a while now.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #128, 02-15-2019 09:34 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:


what are your plans to use that mount at that location to help secure the engine... the firewall isn't thick enough and the next closest bulkhead area would be the frame rail or the shock tower.. and the side mount bracket would be far better to start from... I'm only asking this because I've been staring at a similar engine for a while now.

I plan on adding structural components to beef up the area.



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #129, 02-16-2019 09:31 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

I plan on adding structural components to beef up the area.


It just seems like the amount of beefing required to make a firewall-mounted dogbone mount point would result in something so heavy/bulky as to be impractical, and still probably not that good.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #130, 02-16-2019 10:42 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:





Guess we will see.



Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #131, 02-16-2019 08:49 PM
      On my Short Star and my LS4, I did not use a dogbone. I have 5 motor mounts. The Short* used stock liquid filled mounts and the LS4 uses poly. Neither engine moved enough to contact anything. And I do not feel engine or drive train vibrations. I hated the idea of using the heads as a motor mount on the Short*.

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #132, 02-17-2019 01:16 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:

On my Short Star and my LS4, I did not use a dogbone. I have 5 motor mounts. The Short* used stock liquid filled mounts and the LS4 uses poly. Neither engine moved enough to contact anything. And I do not feel engine or drive train vibrations. I hated the idea of using the heads as a motor mount on the Short*.

That is worth considering, but the good news is that if the engine moves that little, having a dog bone shouldn't hurt.


Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #133, 02-17-2019 09:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

That is worth considering, but the good news is that if the engine moves that little, having a dog bone shouldn't hurt.


You may be correct?
For two reasons, I did not want to use a dog bone 1: I did not like that the dog bone mounted to the heads. I know the factory does it but they also replace head gaskets. Second: I did not like the thought of the bulkhead/firewall moving or flexing, even the slightest. Because the rear window is very difficult to replace it it cracks.
I have used the original dog bone mount of the Fiero at the strut tower location on at least one of the swaps I have done. But I had to make a new mount for the engine side of the dog bone. The factory dog bone is always on the wrong side of the engine for our Fiero swaps.


fieroguru MSG #134, 02-17-2019 10:17 AM
      I too don't have a dogbone on my LS4. I used the basic 4 corner mounting method with rubber lower control arm bushings.
1. The bushings are quite stiff and since they are round and enclosed in a metal ring, they limit available movement.
2. The bushings are spaced about 24" apart front to rear, so they have a significant amount of leverage to control engine movement.
3. The bushings at the front and rear are also co-linear, which helps balance the torque loads between the bushings.

The factory mounts that Daryl is using are probably quite flexible to significantly reduce drivetrain vibrations. So even with 4 of those, he will likely need some type of dogbone as well to limit the engine movement at WOT.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #135, 02-17-2019 06:52 PM
      The mounts I used are from a first gen Cadillac SRX. The Cadillac engine is longitudinal with two of these in front and a transmission crossmember in the rear. I'm not exactly sure how much movement to expect in my application.

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 02-17-2019).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #136, 02-19-2019 12:54 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

The mounts I used are from a first gen Cadillac SRX. The Cadillac engine is longitudinal with two of these in front and a transmission crossmember in the rear. I'm not exactly sure how much movement to expect in my application.



Keep in mind that longitudinal engine mounting methods only have to deal with driveshaft torque, while transverse engine mounting methods have to deal with axle torque.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #137, 02-20-2019 12:50 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


Keep in mind that longitudinal engine mounting methods only have to deal with driveshaft torque, while transverse engine mounting methods have to deal with axle torque.

Interesting you should mention that. Taking into consideration final drive gear reduction, the effective torque is about tripled but the speed of the torqing action is 1/3. How that effect plays out on mounts is an interesting puzzle.


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #138, 02-20-2019 12:44 PM
      I would estimate three times the engine movement vs. the original application.

I took the hypothesis that the movement is proportional to the applied torque.

In your case, since you have two transmission mounts spread apart, that's not quite the same as the single mount in the Caddy.

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 02-20-2019).]

Rickady88GT (rjkmfam@sbcglobal.net) MSG #139, 02-20-2019 08:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Interesting you should mention that. Taking into consideration final drive gear reduction, the effective torque is about tripled but the speed of the torqing action is 1/3. How that effect plays out on mounts is an interesting puzzle.


Just think about how much a Fiero fire wall will have to deal with if dog bones were yanking on it?
Not sure if you intend to use the stock engine dog bone mounts or not, but if you do want to use a dog bone or 2, consider switching them to the rear, and not on the fire wall.
Another reason to not use fire wall dog bones is for maintenance. Idesigned my engine swaps to be able to swing down the cradle easily for stuff like changing plugs. A dog bone under the deck lid could be difficult to disconnect for a cradle swing down.
Believe me, it SUX to work on stuff that can't be reached back there. Even the wire harnesses should have enough slack to flex the cradle down. OR be easily disconnected. The coolant pipes, and exhaust system should also be untouched for a cradle swing down.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #140, 02-20-2019 09:25 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Rickady88GT:


Just think about how much a Fiero fire wall will have to deal with if dog bones were yanking on it?
Not sure if you intend to use the stock engine dog bone mounts or not, but if you do want to use a dog bone or 2, consider switching them to the rear, and not on the fire wall.
Another reason to not use fire wall dog bones is for maintenance. Idesigned my engine swaps to be able to swing down the cradle easily for stuff like changing plugs. A dog bone under the deck lid could be difficult to disconnect for a cradle swing down.
Believe me, it SUX to work on stuff that can't be reached back there. Even the wire harnesses should have enough slack to flex the cradle down. OR be easily disconnected. The coolant pipes, and exhaust system should also be untouched for a cradle swing down.

I was thinking of a brace connecting the upper spaceframe siderails. Not thinking of using the firewall for support.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #141, 02-20-2019 09:27 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

I would estimate three times the engine movement vs. the original application.

I took the hypothesis that the movement is proportional to the applied torque.

In your case, since you have two transmission mounts spread apart, that's not quite the same as the single mount in the Caddy.


The distance from the mount to the axis of torque must also be considered.



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #142, 03-26-2019 06:39 PM
     











Finally took a few minutes to work on the 88 project. Exhaust is done and the cradle is pretty much ready to go into the car. Unfortunately the car is a long way from being ready for the cradle. I was inspired by attending and completing in my first car show with the 87GT. Unbelievably I took 1st place in the Fiero class. Got a really cool plaque for the shop and my picture taken with a pretty, young trophy girl. High point of my day!




msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #143, 04-03-2019 11:04 AM
      Daryl,

I need a big favor, could you get me the stack height of your flywheel, pressure plate, and clutch. I 'think' the stock ATSV setup may very well fit in our Saab f40 bellhousings after talking to monster clutch out of Texas. I know the spline count and diameter match...just need the height

I'm having to initiate a credit card dispute with clutchnet as they've gone radio silent on me for several weeks after numerous calls and emails...

Thanks in advance...


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #144, 04-03-2019 11:11 AM
      Sorry, but it is already assemballed. Unless you know how to measure it while assemballed, we are too late. I used off the shelf parts for a 2.8l Saab. That info should be available somewhere.

msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #145, 04-03-2019 11:37 AM
      No worries.... Only way would be to pull the f40 off again, and axles, and mounts..major pita

Yeah you'd think but no one knows or no one responds.

If you have to pull the f40 again for some reason let me know...

Thanks!


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #146, 04-24-2019 09:15 PM
      Finally done with other non-car projects so on to the next step. My 88 project did not have a rear sway bar. Does anyone have photos or diagrams of the factory 88 rear sway bar or of any other options people have used? I'm trying to figure how I am going to add a rear sway bar.
Thanks,
Daryl


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #147, 04-25-2019 08:45 AM
      There was a recent thread with some good pics, but the drawings in this thread are amazing and should have what you need
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000116.html


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #148, 04-25-2019 03:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

There was a recent thread with some good pics, but the drawings in this thread are amazing and should have what you need
http://www.fiero.nl/forum/Forum3/HTML/000116.html

This thread is great, but the suspension mods are extensive. I'm not sure his solutions will apply to a less modified suspension.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #149, 04-25-2019 08:39 PM
      Just referring to his recreations of the stock drawings. It is a big thread for sure takes a while to find stuff.

fieroguru MSG #150, 04-25-2019 09:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

Just referring to his recreations of the stock drawings. It is a big thread for sure takes a while to find stuff.


He has a table of contents in the first post.

Your rear transmission mount will interfere with the stock 88 sway bar. It mounts right in front of the rear cradle mount standoffs. You can raise the bar a little higher than stock as well as shift it forward some, but there are limits of clearance. The upper set of bars is the stock 88 rear with the Addco 88 rear so you can see the general shape.


Here is where mine is mounted. It is shifted about 1" higher to clear the 2x3 crossmember.



pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #151, 04-25-2019 09:50 PM
      Can the front-bar-on-rear 84-87-style install be implemented on an 88 with really long endlinks to reach the knuckle/strut mounts?

[This message has been edited by pmbrunelle (edited 04-25-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #152, 04-25-2019 11:43 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


He has a table of contents in the first post.

Your rear transmission mount will interfere with the stock 88 sway bar. It mounts right in front of the rear cradle mount standoffs. You can raise the bar a little higher than stock as well as shift it forward some, but there are limits of clearance. The upper set of bars is the stock 88 rear with the Addco 88 rear so you can see the general shape.


Here is where mine is mounted. It is shifted about 1" higher to clear the 2x3 crossmember.


I like this location, but I have a motor mount in the way. I'm thinking I could drill holes in the cradle tower, reinforce it, and use a sway bar with removable ends like this.
This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #153, 04-26-2019 08:33 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:

Can the front-bar-on-rear 84-87-style install be implemented on an 88 with really long endlinks to reach the knuckle/strut mounts?



I did that on my '87 Northstar car for a while. I mounted the bar to the bottom of the cradle, and used '88 sway bar brackets on the struts, swapped left for right so they extended to the rear instead of the front. I made rod-end links that were about 12" center to center.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #154, 04-26-2019 08:35 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Your rear transmission mount will interfere with the stock 88 sway bar. It mounts right in front of the rear cradle mount standoffs. You can raise the bar a little higher than stock as well as shift it forward some, but there are limits of clearance. The upper set of bars is the stock 88 rear with the Addco 88 rear so you can see the general shape.



Hard to tell from the photos, but the rear bank catalyst might cause problems too.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #155, 05-06-2019 10:18 PM
      This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.





Finally got started on my rear sway bar. The bar is a torsion bar from a 1989 Isuzu Trooper. Going to be fabricating end arms that resembal the stock photo shown. With a little luck, it may just work.
(Looks like the stock photo doesn't show up, but if you click on the png at the top, the photo is accessible.)

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 05-07-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #156, 05-08-2019 04:58 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


He has a table of contents in the first post.

Your rear transmission mount will interfere with the stock 88 sway bar. It mounts right in front of the rear cradle mount standoffs. You can raise the bar a little higher than stock as well as shift it forward some, but there are limits of clearance. The upper set of bars is the stock 88 rear with the Addco 88 rear so you can see the general shape.




Here is where mine is mounted. It is shifted about 1" higher to clear the 2x3 crossmember.



Guru,
This photo shows a sway bar mount attached to the strut bolts. What is that mount from?
Thanks,
Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 05-08-2019).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #157, 05-08-2019 09:17 AM
      That's a stock '88 Fiero part.

fieroguru MSG #158, 05-08-2019 05:22 PM
      Yes, that bracket is part of the stock 88 rear seat bar setup.

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #159, 05-08-2019 10:11 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Yes, that bracket is part of the stock 88 rear seat bar setup.


Any idea where I can find a pair? Are they only from a 1988, or do other years have the same parts?

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 05-08-2019).]

fieroguru MSG #160, 05-09-2019 12:15 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
Any idea where I can find a pair? Are they only from a 1988, or do other years have the same parts?



It is an 88 Formula or GT part. 4 cyl 88 coupes don't have them (unless they have been added).

Ask for them in the mall or on some of the facebook parts groups, call up the Fiero Factory, or reach out to your local 88 Fiero parts hoarder.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #161, 05-09-2019 08:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Any idea where I can find a pair? Are they only from a 1988, or do other years have the same parts?



Held/Arraut used to make repros. Now that The Fiero Factory has bought them out, they will probably have them available when they re-start production of those pieces.


lou_dias (loudfiero@gmail.com) MSG #162, 05-09-2019 11:36 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:
Held/Arraut used to make repros. Now that The Fiero Factory has bought them out, they will probably have them available when they re-start production of those pieces.

Woah! This is epic news! My SLALOM front suspension needs some parts refreshed...


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #163, 05-09-2019 01:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


It is an 88 Formula or GT part. 4 cyl 88 coupes don't have them (unless they have been added).

Ask for them in the mall or on some of the facebook parts groups, call up the Fiero Factory, or reach out to your local 88 Fiero parts hoarder.


Great call Guru. Found a set at a good price in record time. Thanks.



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #164, 05-10-2019 09:54 PM
     

I have a question about front control arm bushings. I ordered some online for my 88 . The ones I received were the item shown. The bolt hole is the correct size, but the O.D. is 30mm. My lower control arms take 45mm. The question is did they send bushings for the wrong year or do I have an earlier front suspension? I don't know if 84-87s take a different size bushing or if Rock auto just dropped the ball. Any help is appreciated.
Thanks
Daryl


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #165, 05-10-2019 11:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:



I have a question about front control arm bushings. I ordered some online for my 88 . The ones I received were the item shown. The bolt hole is the correct size, but the O.D. is 30mm. My lower control arms take 45mm. The question is did they send bushings for the wrong year or do I have an earlier front suspension? I don't know if 84-87s take a different size bushing or if Rock auto just dropped the ball. Any help is appreciated.
Thanks
Daryl


Never mind! I figured it out. These are for the upper arm.



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #166, 05-14-2019 08:06 PM
     



Worked on the rear sway bar arm today. One done, one to do. If my questionable welding holds up, they might just work.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #167, 05-15-2019 03:02 PM
     

Got the bracket on the driver's side done. Still need to fabricate the frame mounts and get the correct length link bolts and paint. Gotta have paint to hide the ugly welds, but it seems to be coming right along.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #168, 05-20-2019 07:46 PM
     









Finally finished the rear sway bar. I used a torsion bar from a 1989 Isuzu Trooper. Total cost came to about $65.



fieroguru MSG #169, 05-20-2019 09:59 PM
      Have you test fit sliding the rear cradle bolts in place yet?

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #170, 05-21-2019 12:36 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Have you test fit sliding the rear cradle bolts in place yet?


The sway bar will have to be removed and reinstalled after the cradle is in place.


msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #171, 06-26-2019 01:01 AM
      Daryl,

FYI...While coming up with a solution for a reluctor wheel.. I read/found that the E39 ecu as well as my E92 don't like low tooth count VSS signal rates at low speeds.
In case yours does the same, I found and am installing one of the 32 tooth wheels from Davis Technologies...just slightly bored out their 1.75" rings to 1.768" for the saab/cobalt axle.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #172, 06-26-2019 01:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

Daryl,

FYI...While coming up with a solution for a reluctor wheel.. I read/found that the E39 ecu as well as my E92 don't like low tooth count VSS signal rates at low speeds.
In case yours does the same, I found and am installing one of the 32 tooth wheels from Davis Technologies...just slightly bored out their 1.75" rings to 1.768" for the saab/cobalt axle.


Good to know! Thanks!



cyrus88 MSG #173, 06-27-2019 04:26 AM
      I did this for when I needed better VSS for my LT-1 swap. If you're interested in more info, I will be glad to share.

[This message has been edited by cyrus88 (edited 06-27-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #174, 07-17-2019 06:04 PM
     
I finally took time to work on the 88 GT today. Had to think a bit to figure where i was in the project. I decided to do a test fit of the cradle . everything seems to fit pretty well, but then i haven't heard what all of you think . please take a look at the photos and let me know where you see the warts.
Thanks
Daryl































Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #175, 07-17-2019 06:09 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Have you test fit sliding the rear cradle bolts in place yet?


Fyi to Guru.
Did a fitting of the cradle today. The bolts go in fine. I'm liking how the sway bar came out. If you see anymore questionable looking things, please keep mentioning them. I appreciate the long distance help.
Daryl


pmbrunelle (pmbrunelle@gmail.com) MSG #176, 07-17-2019 06:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
please take a look at the photos and let me know where you see the warts.


Access to the sway bar zerk fittings appears questionable.

Shift cables appear to have a tight bend radius coming out of the firewall -> might be bad for good shifter feel.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #177, 07-18-2019 04:25 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by pmbrunelle:


Access to the sway bar zerk fittings appears questionable.

Shift cables appear to have a tight bend radius coming out of the firewall -> might be bad for good shifter feel.


Zerk fittings are better than the photo indicates. Shifting? I'll let you know when it gets further along. Thanks for the observations.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #178, 07-18-2019 03:49 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:


I finally took time to work on the 88 GT today. Had to think a bit to figure where i was in the project. I decided to do a test fit of the cradle . everything seems to fit pretty well, but then i haven't heard what all of you think . please take a look at the photos and let me know where you see the warts.
Thanks
Daryl


What are you using for axles?

The F40 looks like it's further from the left frame rail than a typical installation. Likewise, the rear back cam cover looks closer to the strut tower than I would expect it to be, given that there are only 3 cylinders in that bank. IOW, your powertrain my be biased to the right a bit. I don't have typical Fiero cornerweights handy, but that may affect your cornerweighting.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 07-18-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #179, 07-18-2019 08:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


What are you using for axles?

The F40 looks like it's further from the left frame rail than a typical installation. Likewise, the rear back cam cover looks closer to the strut tower than I would expect it to be, given that there are only 3 cylinders in that bank. IOW, your powertrain my be biased to the right a bit. I don't have typical Fiero cornerweights handy, but that may affect your cornerweighting



I have Cobalt axles. Positioning may be slightly different than what you are used to because of how I designed the mounts. I blocked the engine/trans, suspension and axles in place on the cradle, then made the mounts. That way the axles and everything else were in the exact position I wanted before fabricating mounts.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #180, 07-19-2019 10:26 AM
      Making sure you have symmetrical plunge clearance in the inner CV joints is what's going to dictate your left/right position of the powertrain if your axles are picked ahead of time.

Have you already run the suspension through its full range of travel to verify the CV joints look good at all positions?


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #181, 07-21-2019 01:07 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Making sure you have symmetrical plunge clearance in the inner CV joints is what's going to dictate your left/right position of the powertrain if your axles are picked ahead of time.

Have you already run the suspension through its full range of travel to verify the CV joints look good at all positions?


Correct. That is why i assemballed the suspebsion, axles and associated apparatus before centering the engine/transmission unit and fabbed the mounts. Having a center axle shaft and two identical length axle shafts does make the job simpler.



wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #182, 07-21-2019 08:44 AM
      I know the Cobalt SS supercharged axles fit the F40 and I am assuming that is what you are using. But it got me wondering because I have never looked, do base model Cobalts use the same axles?

fieroguru MSG #183, 07-21-2019 09:35 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

I know the Cobalt SS supercharged axles fit the F40 and I am assuming that is what you are using. But it got me wondering because I have never looked, do base model Cobalts use the same axles?


No.
The F35 has the same 27 spline spider gears as the F40, but it was only used in the SS version of the Cobalts. The standard models used the F23 which uses the stock Fiero axles.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #184, 07-22-2019 07:22 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


No.
The F35 has the same 27 spline spider gears as the F40, but it was only used in the SS version of the Cobalts. The standard models used the F23 which uses the stock Fiero axles.

Yes, the Ss Cobalt Supercharged axles are what i am using.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #185, 10-19-2019 10:49 PM
      Quick question. I bought a parts car with a nice interior for my 88 swap project. The parts car is ab 86 GT. Will all of the interior and dash items interchange with the 88?

fieroguru MSG #186, 10-19-2019 10:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Quick question. I bought a parts car with a nice interior for my 88 swap project. The parts car is ab 86 GT. Will all of the interior and dash items interchange with the 88?


Yes.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #187, 10-20-2019 01:36 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Yes.


Thanks


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #188, 11-04-2019 12:52 PM
      I appologise in advance for not knowing how to mark areas on photos, but these photos are of various hose connections on my LFX engine. I am struggling with what they all are, what they connect to and if they are necessary. Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Daryl
Additional info:
Pic 1. 3 hose fittingsfor coolant near radiator hose fitting.

Pic 2. Black hose from radiator hose fitting and vacuum hose fitting from gadget attached to intake plenum.

Pic3. Metal hose fitting @ left end of cam cover.

Pic 4. Another angle of pic 1. Also shows fuel inlet from tank.

Pic 5. Taped over AC hose connection point on AC compressor.

Pic 6. Vent connection on right end of cam cover.

Pic 7. Close up of pic 2

Pic 8. Relocated oil fill cap.

Pic. 9. Fitting on intake.

















[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 11-04-2019).]

wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #189, 11-04-2019 05:29 PM
      #1 picture is outlets to heater core piping Rest I dont know not familiar with this engine

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #190, 11-05-2019 08:56 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

I appologise in advance for not knowing how to mark areas on photos, but these photos are of various hose connections on my LFX engine. I am struggling with what they all are, what they connect to and if they are necessary. Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Daryl
Additional info:
Pic 1. 3 hose fittingsfor coolant near radiator hose fitting.

Pic 2. Black hose from radiator hose fitting and vacuum hose fitting from gadget attached to intake plenum.

Pic3. Metal hose fitting @ left end of cam cover.

Pic 4. Another angle of pic 1. Also shows fuel inlet from tank.

Pic 5. Taped over AC hose connection point on AC compressor.

Pic 6. Vent connection on right end of cam cover.

Pic 7. Close up of pic 2

Pic 8. Relocated oil fill cap.

Pic. 9. Fitting on intake.



1. Two heater core fittings plus a connection to the pressurized surge tank
2. Possible throttle body coolant + high point bleed connection to pressurized surge tank
3. Probably PCV vacuum connection
4. Ok.
5. It's taped over.
6. Probably PCV fresh air connection
7. Ok.
8. Ok.
9. Probably PCV fresh air connection. If you rotate the tube, it'll probably line up with the fitting in #6.

Looks like you have a broken fitting on your intake manifold above the center cylinder in the rear bank.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-05-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #191, 11-05-2019 12:28 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


1. Two heater core fittings plus a connection to the pressurized surge tank
2. Possible throttle body coolant + high point bleed connection to pressurized surge tank
3. Probably PCV vacuum connection
4. Ok.
5. It's taped over.
6. Probably PCV fresh air connection
7. Ok.
8. Ok.
9. Probably PCV fresh air connection. If you rotate the tube, it'll probably line up with the fitting in #6.

Looks like you have a broken fitting on your intake manifold above the center cylinder in the rear bank.


Thanks, this is a big help.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #192, 11-05-2019 12:50 PM
      What fitting did you use for the relocated oil fill?

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #193, 11-05-2019 12:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


1. Two heater core fittings plus a connection to the pressurized surge tank
2. Possible throttle body coolant + high point bleed connection to pressurized surge tank
3. Probably PCV vacuum connection
4. Ok.
5. It's taped over.
6. Probably PCV fresh air connection
7. Ok.
8. Ok.
9. Probably PCV fresh air connection. If you rotate the tube, it'll probably line up with the fitting in #6.

Looks like you have a broken fitting on your intake manifold above the center cylinder in the rear bank.



This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

I found this photo of the donor car before the engine came out.



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #194, 11-05-2019 01:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:


This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

I found this photo of the donor car before the engine came out.


Looks like #9 goes to #6 and the small black hose goes to the coolant fill reservoir. The gadget may be to the fuel tank vent. What do you think Will?



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #195, 11-05-2019 01:07 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:


This images is larger than 153600 bytes. Click to view.

I found this photo of the donor car before the engine came out.


Oh, by the way, that broken fitting is really just a mount for the top engine fascia. It doesn't go anywhere.



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #196, 11-05-2019 02:44 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


1. Two heater core fittings plus a connection to the pressurized surge tank
2. Possible throttle body coolant + high point bleed connection to pressurized surge tank
3. Probably PCV vacuum connection
4. Ok.
5. It's taped over.
6. Probably PCV fresh air connection
7. Ok.
8. Ok.
9. Probably PCV fresh air connection. If you rotate the tube, it'll probably line up with the fitting in #6.

Looks like you have a broken fitting on your intake manifold above the center cylinder in the rear bank.





Looks kinda like the origional position of the reservoir and the fuel line vent pipe i found in the pile of parts seems to fit.



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #197, 11-05-2019 02:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

What fitting did you use for the relocated oil fill?


The origional from the front bank has a short extention neck that I epoxied onto the rear bank, then used the stock cap. I plugged the old filler with a Dorman replacement cap.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #198, 11-06-2019 12:16 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:




Looks kinda like the origional position of the reservoir and the fuel line vent pipe i found in the pile of parts seems to fit.


The small hose may have gone under the intake neck, but otherwise looks reasonable.

ETA: NVM, I hadn't seen your photo of the donor car.

Did you try spinning the intake boot?

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-06-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #199, 11-06-2019 06:13 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


The small hose may have gone under the intake neck, but otherwise looks reasonable.

ETA: NVM, I hadn't seen your photo of the donor car.

Did you try spinning the intake boot?




Yes, I spun the boot and things lined up nicely.
Thanks



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #200, 11-06-2019 06:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


The small hose may have gone under the intake neck, but otherwise looks reasonable.

ETA: NVM, I hadn't seen your photo of the donor car.

Did you try spinning the intake boot?



Still looking for where the hose fitting in photo #3 should go. I remember hearing that there may not be a pcv valve on this engine.



fieroguru MSG #201, 11-06-2019 07:02 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
Still looking for where the hose fitting in photo #3 should go. I remember hearing that there may not be a pcv valve on this engine.


GM switched to a fixed orifice bleed for the positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) and stopped using a valve.

The tube/nipple/barb with the small orifice should connect to a filtered vacuum port on the intake (this is the dirty air exit to the intake manifold).

The other valve cover (or valley cover) should have another fitting/tube that is more open. That should connect to a filtered and metered air port (clean, metered air to enter the engine). This port/nipple should be in the air intake tube, after the MAF (metered) and before the throttle body. It looks like the rubber boot between the two has a nipple for this purpose.

If you wanted two, you could switch the connection points and change the air flow path through the engine, I just think having the smaller orifice end on the dirty air exit will help keep oil droplets from getting into the intake. On my LS4 swap I added a catch can on the dirty air line and it collects about 1" of oil ever y oil change (5000 miles).


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #202, 11-07-2019 09:09 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Yes, I spun the boot and things lined up nicely.
Thanks


Ah, ok. I see it now. Good to hear.

 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Still looking for where the hose fitting in photo #3 should go. I remember hearing that there may not be a pcv valve on this engine.


1. What's the fitting on the manifold between the broken fitting and the fuel connection (right above the connection in the #3 photo)?
2. What's the valve right next to the throttle on the inside of the elbow on the manifold?

 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

GM switched to a fixed orifice bleed for the positive crankcase ventilation (PCV) and stopped using a valve.

The tube/nipple/barb with the small orifice should connect to a filtered vacuum port on the intake (this is the dirty air exit to the intake manifold).

The other valve cover (or valley cover) should have another fitting/tube that is more open. That should connect to a filtered and metered air port (clean, metered air to enter the engine). This port/nipple should be in the air intake tube, after the MAF (metered) and before the throttle body. It looks like the rubber boot between the two has a nipple for this purpose.


We're pretty sure the connection from the front cam cover to the intake boot is the PCV fresh air.

There's a surprising amount of engineering that goes into PCV systems. Don't second guess GM on that one... just hook it up the way they did and send it.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #203, 11-07-2019 12:08 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


1. Two heater core fittings plus a connection to the pressurized surge tank
2. Possible throttle body coolant + high point bleed connection to pressurized surge tank
3. Probably PCV vacuum connection
4. Ok.
5. It's taped over.
6. Probably PCV fresh air connection
7. Ok.
8. Ok.
9. Probably PCV fresh air connection. If you rotate the tube, it'll probably line up with the fitting in #6.

Looks like you have a broken fitting on your intake manifold above the center cylinder in the rear bank.



Will, what are the chances that the fitting in pic 3 and the gizmo in pic 2 connect to a vapor canister for the fuel vent system?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #204, 11-07-2019 01:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:


Will, what are the chances that the fitting in pic 3 and the gizmo in pic 2 connect to a vapor canister for the fuel vent system?


Good point.
Probably low. The gizmo could very well be an EECS solenoid. It would connect to a vapor canister for the fuel vent system, but probably does not connect to the PCV system.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #205, 11-07-2019 02:29 PM
     





Finally got a bottom in the reduced size trunk. I lost a bit of room to accomodate the exhaust system and the sway bar, but I think it was an acceptable compramise. Still room for a duffle bag for an overnight trip, or a couple of camping chairs and car detail suplies when we go to the local parking lot car shows. Good thing I seldom win. No room for a trophy.



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #206, 11-07-2019 02:38 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


We're pretty sure the connection from the front cam cover to the intake boot is the PCV fresh air.

There's a surprising amount of engineering that goes into PCV systems. Don't second guess GM on that one... just hook it up the way they did and send it.

Guru, I have read that a catch can does help with buildup on the intake valves. Is that true?



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #207, 11-08-2019 01:48 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


We're pretty sure the connection from the front cam cover to the intake boot is the PCV fresh air.

There's a surprising amount of engineering that goes into PCV systems. Don't second guess GM on that one... just hook it up the way they did and send it.


As for the fitting (question #1) the broken one used to look kinda like that. They both were to mount the engine cover.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #208, 11-08-2019 09:39 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Guru, I have read that a catch can does help with buildup on the intake valves. Is that true?


How much trouble does the LFX have with deposits? I thought the engines that had problems with valve deposits were mostly the ones with external EGR. Soot from the EGR mixes with oil vapor from the PCV system to produce wet gunk that adheres to the valve, then cokes. Take the EGR out of the mix and it's not nearly as much of a problem.


Raydar (raydarfiero@comcast.net) MSG #209, 11-08-2019 05:10 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

How much trouble does the LFX have with deposits?
...


I have read some posts on the Camaro forum that lead me to believe that intake valve deposits really are "a thing" with the DI V6s, including the LFX.
To the point that people were talking about blasting the valves (hopefully while closed) with walnut shells, and then installing a catch can.

I would be inclined to pull the intake manifold(s) - if they haven't been, already - and at least check the valves. Base your decision to implement a catch can according to how the valves look, how many miles are on the engine, and how many miles you think you'll put on it. Just MHO.

[This message has been edited by Raydar (edited 11-08-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #210, 11-08-2019 10:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Raydar:


I have read some posts on the Camaro forum that lead me to believe that intake valve deposits really are "a thing" with the DI V6s, including the LFX.
To the point that people were talking about blasting the valves (hopefully while closed) with walnut shells, and then installing a catch can.

I would be inclined to pull the intake manifold(s) - if they haven't been, already - and at least check the valves. Base your decision to implement a catch can according to how the valves look, how many miles are on the engine, and how many miles you think you'll put on it. Just MHO.



The LFX was GMs main passenger car V6 from 2012 to 2016. It was used in Cadillacs, Chevys, Buicks and GMC cars and crossovers. That's a bunch of cars. If it were a serious problem, GM would have fixed it, wouldn't they? A catch can can't hurt, but I don't think intake valve buildup will be a high priority.



Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #211, 11-10-2019 06:40 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

On my LS4 swap I added a catch can on the dirty air line and it collects about 1" of oil ever y oil change (5000 miles).



 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Guru, I have read that a catch can does help with buildup on the intake valves. Is that true?


I'm going to change my position on this slightly.

For DI engines, run a catch can in between the PCV *OUTLET* and the manifold. IOW, the can will see manifold vacuum. Do *NOT* switch the flow direction. GM spends a lot of money designing oil separators that are highly efficient for the space available inside the valve cover. DI has made OEM level PCV oil separation requirements MUCH more stringent than port injection oil separation requirements were. The LFX, as a second generation DI engine, has the benefit of better PCV oil separation than older engines, including the LLT.

That being said, if you have extra space for a catch can, or gross overkill like a Mann & Hummel ProVent, using it to clean up the small amount of PCV oil that gets through GM's system will be beneficial for preventing valve deposits in the engine.

IOW, use the original PCV system, intact, in the original flow direction, but optionally add a catch can in between the valve cover outlet and the manifold vacuum connection.

[This message has been edited by Will (edited 11-10-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #212, 11-10-2019 10:53 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:


I'm going to change my position on this slightly.

For DI engines, run a catch can in between the PCV *OUTLET* and the manifold. IOW, the can will see manifold vacuum. Do *NOT* switch the flow direction. GM spends a lot of money designing oil separators that are highly efficient for the space available inside the valve cover. DI has made OEM level PCV oil separation requirements MUCH more stringent than port injection oil separation requirements were. The LFX, as a second generation DI engine, has the benefit of better PCV oil separation than older engines, including the LLT.

That being said, if you have extra space for a catch can, or gross overkill like a Mann & Hummel ProVent, using it to clean up the small amount of PCV oil that gets through GM's system will be beneficial for preventing valve deposits in the engine.

IOW, use the original PCV system, intact, in the original flow direction, but optionally add a catch can in between the valve cover outlet and the manifold vacuum connection.



Great suggestion to add the can. I do have a question about location. Does it matter how high or low the can is in relation to the engine?



fieroguru MSG #213, 11-11-2019 06:34 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Guru, I have read that a catch can does help with buildup on the intake valves. Is that true?


Sending an oil mist through the intake will leave oil deposits everywhere inside (plenum, runners, back side of valves, etc.)
Traditional port fuel injected engines point the injector at the back of the valves, which helps to rinse them off and keep them clean.
DI engines move the injector into the combustion chamber, so any oil deposits that end up on the back side of the valve will collect over time and cause some form of buildup.

I mounted my catch can as low as possible and away from the exhaust heat for 2 reasons.
1. It will keep the walls of the can cooler than the air coming out the PCV port, which will help condense and collect any vapors.
2. The return from the oil can is an up hill path, so any mist that makes it past the can, has a secondary chance of condensing and rolling back down the tube and into the can before being introduced into the intake manifold.


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #214, 11-11-2019 10:11 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:

Sending an oil mist through the intake will leave oil deposits everywhere inside (plenum, runners, back side of valves, etc.)
Traditional port fuel injected engines point the injector at the back of the valves, which helps to rinse them off and keep them clean.
DI engines move the injector into the combustion chamber, so any oil deposits that end up on the back side of the valve will collect over time and cause some form of buildup.

I mounted my catch can as low as possible and away from the exhaust heat for 2 reasons.
1. It will keep the walls of the can cooler than the air coming out the PCV port, which will help condense and collect any vapors.
2. The return from the oil can is an up hill path, so any mist that makes it past the can, has a secondary chance of condensing and rolling back down the tube and into the can before being introduced into the intake manifold.


EGR introduced into the manifold makes the problem MUCH worse than PCV vapors by themselves.
In a port injected engine, fuel is continuously washing any residue off the intake valves before it cokes.

Interestingly, Porsche's new DI engines position the injector such that it sprays the backs of the intake valves while they're open.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #215, 11-11-2019 10:43 AM
      I love that you guys know so much about this stuff and are so willing to help . by the way, happy Veterans Day.

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 11-11-2019).]

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #216, 11-13-2019 06:17 PM
      Definitely install an oil catch can. The PCV valve changed for the LFX, but some of them use the same valve as the LLT and there is no baffling on the right side valve cover except for the partition with three small holes that is molded into the valve cover gasket for that side, so I wouldn't expect there to be much of a difference in oil passage into the intake between the motors, except where differences in the PCV effect it. The right side valve cover gasket molding enhancement, is a later design for the 3.6L that was implemented to help with baffling, but the old design without the partition is still available and some unwittingly purchase it.

Some have also proposed modifying the holes in the pcv valve, in an effort to reduce the tendency of the crankcase gasses from reversing at moderately high to wideopen throttle and flowing backward into the lower resistance clean side upstream of the throttlebody. Enlarging the holes results in more oil exiting the valve cover, giving a reason to need to check and empty the catch can recommended, along with the mod routinely, when you should want the oil to stay in the motor.

Below are some pictures of my intake valves, which I cleaned using the intake valve adjusting sequence for the cam in block motor, closing the target valves in groups of three. I used a cheap flexible camera and a digital camera that had difficulty negotiating the angle involved later in the day and couldn't get as good a picture of the clean valves as I did the dirty valves.

If the residue is bad enough, it has a tendency to interfere with cold startup and idle in the form of reversion and misfires that can to some degree be masked with premium fuel, which is a waste given the motor was rated on 87 octane. See the video link along with the thread of origin at the bottom.






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=injo3XS5eJg

https://www.cadillacforums....cold-starts.1043882/


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #217, 11-13-2019 07:24 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

Definitely install an oil catch can. The PCV valve changed for the LFX, but some of them use the same valve as the LLT and there is no baffling on the right side valve cover except for the partition with three small holes that is molded into the valve cover gasket for that side, so I wouldn't expect there to be much of a difference in oil passage into the intake between the motors, except where differences in the PCV effect it. The right side valve cover gasket molding enhancement, is a later design for the 3.6L that was implemented to help with baffling, but the old design without the partition is still available and some unwittingly purchase it.

Some have also proposed modifying the holes in the pcv valve, in an effort to reduce the tendency of the crankcase gasses from reversing at moderately high to wideopen throttle and flowing backward into the lower resistance clean side upstream of the throttlebody. Enlarging the holes results in more oil exiting the valve cover, giving a reason to need to check and empty the catch can recommended, along with the mod routinely, when you should want the oil to stay in the motor.

Below are some pictures of my intake valves, which I cleaned using the intake valve adjusting sequence for the cam in block motor, closing the target valves in groups of three. I used a cheap flexible camera and a digital camera that had difficulty negotiating the angle involved later in the day and couldn't get as good a picture of the clean valves as I did the dirty valves.

If the residue is bad enough, it has a tendency to interfere with cold startup and idle in the form of reversion and misfires that can to some degree be masked with premium fuel, which is a waste given the motor was rated on 87 octane. See the video link along with the thread of origin at the bottom.






https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=injo3XS5eJg

https://www.cadillacforums....cold-starts.1043882/

It is my understanding that the Cadillacs in the videos werenot the newer LFX motor, but were the LF1 3 liter. Is that what you understand too?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #218, 11-13-2019 07:41 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

which is a waste given the motor was rated on 87 octane. See the video link along with the thread of origin at the bottom.



While being "rated" for 87, the LLT at least definitely performs better on 91+


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #219, 11-14-2019 09:35 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

It is my understanding that the Cadillacs in the videos werenot the newer LFX motor, but were the LF1 3 liter. Is that what you understand too?


The LF1 and LLT are the same "generation" of DI engines... that is, first generation before these issues were well understood by OEMs.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #220, 11-14-2019 02:18 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

It is my understanding that the Cadillacs in the videos werenot the newer LFX motor, but were the LF1 3 liter. Is that what you understand too?


That may be, but the same principles are at play. I chose that example because I encountered it recently while searching for something else. If the Camaro forum is any indication, there are more oil catch cans on LFX motors than any of the predecessors.


 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

While being "rated" for 87, the LLT at least definitely performs better on 91+


That has not been my experience with mine and hence part of the reason I stopped putting premium in it. My 32 mpg hwy best over a common 80 mile trip that I make from time to time was not on premium fuel which I have not used in more than a year now. Doesn't mean it is not possible for an example to perform better with more octane, but I can no longer rationalize the use of premium for performance specs achieved on regular. I may mount up the acelerometer and fill up with it again for another try.

There is documentation in my owners manual that supports moving to 89 octane for better performance in like vehicles equipped with the LY7 port injected 3.6L 10.2:1 compression, if spark knock is detected, but no such recommendation for the direct injected motor. The direct injection is that efficient, the LLT is 11.3:1 and the LFX 11.5:1 compression, both rated on 87 octane which should pretty much dampen the notion that there is any more to be had with premium except where the tune has been altered. If there were, I'd expect GM to have stated so in the owners manual.

As I mentioned previously, premium does tend to have an audible effect on cold starts if they are like what's heard in the video by decreasing and eliminating them altogether, but that's only masking the real issue.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-14-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #221, 11-14-2019 06:46 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:


That has not been my experience with mine and hence part of the reason I stopped putting premium in it. My 32 mpg hwy best over a common 80 mile trip that I make from time to time was not on premium fuel which I have not used in more than a year now. Doesn't mean it is not possible for an example to perform better with more octane, but I can no longer rationalize the use of premium for performance specs achieved on regular. I may mount up the acelerometer and fill up with it again for another try.

There is documentation in my owners manual that supports moving to 89 octane for better performance in like vehicles equipped with the LY7 port injected 3.6L, if spark knock is detected, but no such recommendation for the direct injected motor. The direct injection is that efficient, the LLT is 11.3:1 and the LFX 11.5:1 compression, both rated on 87 octane which should pretty much dampen the notion that there is any more to be had with premium except where the tune has been altered. If there were, I'd expect GM to have stated so in the owners manual.

As I mentioned previously, premium does tend to have an audible effect on cold starts if they are like what's heard in the video by decreasing and eliminating them altogether, but that's only masking the real issue.



Luckily, I live in Phoenix where there is no such thing as a cold start.😝😝😝




Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #222, 11-18-2019 02:05 PM
     



Hi All,
I am still working out the pvc system. I found the grey canister shown in the photo, in the pile of parts from the donor car (2013 Impala). One hose seems to fit as shown, but where do the other two go? This would be easier if I had taken photos before dismantling the Impala, but so is goes with amatures like me. Anyone willing to give more advice or know where i can get a schematic of the PVC system from a 2013 impala with an LFX? The other photo shows other hose routing I found in a photo on the web. Looks just like you guys discribed. Is this the line where a catch can would be added?
Thanks
Daryl

[This message has been edited by Daryl M (edited 11-18-2019).]

Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #223, 11-18-2019 08:44 PM
      That looks like the charcoal canister from the Fiero, You need the EVAP canister from the donor car which is likely somewhere near the fuel tank, unless you're able to disable the codes that are going to set as a result of it missing from the circuitry. That's not going to work for what you're attempting to use it for. Do a google search, you should find some good ideas on what you can do for an oil catch can.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-18-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #224, 11-19-2019 03:01 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Joseph Upson:

That looks like the charcoal canister from the Fiero, You need the EVAP canister from the donor car which is likely somewhere near the fuel tank, unless you're able to disable the codes that are going to set as a result of it missing from the circuitry. That's not going to work for what you're attempting to use it for. Do a google search, you should find some good ideas on what you can do for an oil catch can.



Any idea where I can find a schematic of the PVC system of a 2013 Impala?


fieroguru MSG #225, 11-19-2019 06:50 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:
Any idea where I can find a schematic of the PVC system of a 2013 Impala?


Factory service manual.

I don't do any OBDII swap without one. It gives you a lot of details important to the swap and helps you avoid issues.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #226, 11-19-2019 12:12 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Factory service manual.

I don't do any OBDII swap without one. It gives you a lot of details important to the swap and helps you avoid issues.


Thanks Guru. Great tip.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #227, 11-19-2019 11:52 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by fieroguru:


Factory service manual.

I don't do any OBDII swap without one. It gives you a lot of details important to the swap and helps you avoid issues.


So any tips on where to get a factory service manual?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #228, 11-20-2019 08:35 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

So any tips on where to get a factory service manual?


https://www.helminc.com/hel...e=&selected%5Fmedia=

The paper manual set is a bit pricey at $300.

AllData and a couple of other services are available on a subscription basis with factory service info.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #229, 11-20-2019 11:14 AM
      Ebay, craigslist and offerup for the best prices on GM shop manuals. I found a set for my car on ebay in like new condition for a small cry of what they cost. Four mid to large phone book size manuals. I prefer turning pages to looking at a computer screen on diagnostic issues.

On a different note, GM did some nice work on improving this motor. The DI motors have shorter piston wrist pins that are also tapered inside the ends for a weight reduction of 20 grams over the first design in the LY7. That along with increasing the connecting rod length from 5.9212" to 6.00" amounts to ~100 lb reduction in inertial load at peak rpm. The DI motors also have connecting rods that are also tapered on the small end for an additional reciprocating weight reduction. On my scale, LY7 rod 646 grams, DI rods 640 grams. The DI pistons are roughly 1 gram lighter in wt from my measurements.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-20-2019).]

Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #230, 11-20-2019 04:00 PM
      Are LY7 and LLT parts the same in that regard?

The LFX makes more output in stock form than the LLT, but the LLT can have headers and the LFX can't.


RandomTask (jguer003@odu.edu) MSG #231, 11-20-2019 04:47 PM
      OP - Many thanks for this. I actually just started the swap myself; sourced a Saab 9-3 F40 w/ jackshaft and mounts and am currently looking for a motor (technically a wrecked car so I can grab everything).

Questions:
1.) Your engine appears to be out of an impala or the sort (due to intake orientation) correct? There were no issues just flipping it? (The intake)
2.) You state you're running Cobalt half shafts; does anything need to be done to make them work? Do they go straight from the trans/jack shaft and install into the hubs?
3.) What did you do for clutch? (Are you running a Camaro clutch/FW?)
4.) Can someone clue me into why VSS is required for this engine to run? I'm having a really difficult time understanding why the engine needs and can't simply be removed from the ECU.

 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

How much clearance do you have between the valve covers and the front firewall and trunk forward wall?

After looking at your pics closely my biggest lf3 fear looks true... Not enough room to fit the stock compressor to IC pipes......plenty of room down below...just not up top........


The biggest issue I'd be worrying about on the LF3/4 is the location of the turbo's. Those motors were only ever installed in RWD applications and as such, never needed to accommodate a jack shaft. The other thing that really prevented me from going this route is price. Sourcing a used motor is still $7k+. You can find LFX's for $1250 all day long which leaves $5.5k+ to install a turbo.


Joseph Upson (j.j.upson@worldnet.att.net) MSG #232, 11-20-2019 05:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Will:

Are LY7 and LLT parts the same in that regard?

The LFX makes more output in stock form than the LLT, but the LLT can have headers and the LFX can't.


If by "same" you mean interchangeable yes they are as long as they're paired with the appropriate matching equipment. It seems as if GM deliberately changed crucial specs in each engine iteration to prevent mixing and matching to create a hybrid, unless you're trying to pump up the LY7. The LY7, LLT/LFX and the LF3/LF4 have different connecting rod lengths. My initial plan was to shave the heads, thin out the MLS head gasket and put the 11.5:1 compression pistons on the turbo rods for higher compression, until I discovered the turbo rods were shorter requiring custom.

In addition to that, the timing cover is pinned to the block, so if .020-.030 is shaved off the heads, the camshaft actuator interrupts will be in a new and lower position relative to the camshaft sensors in the fixed timing cover and that might be enough to cause a code to set when the cam and crank positions are compared.

The LFX has larger intake valves a little more intake camshaft duration and a power peak set 400 rpm higher than the LLT for that extra horsepower, 20 more than the LLT CTS, but only 11 more than the LLT Camaro suggesting some exhaust flow differences and possibly programming, but the major improvement would be best illustrated by comparison of area under the curve. Interestingly, GM manufactured the LLT all the way up through 2017.

Another interesting fact, the LS7 titanium connecting rods are lighter than the LF4 titanium connecting rods, although the LS7 has greater inertia loads.

[This message has been edited by Joseph Upson (edited 11-20-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #233, 11-20-2019 09:29 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:

OP - Many thanks for this. I actually just started the swap myself; sourced a Saab 9-3 F40 w/ jackshaft and mounts and am currently looking for a motor (technically a wrecked car so I can grab everything).

Questions:
1.) Your engine appears to be out of an impala or the sort (due to intake orientation) correct? There were no issues just flipping it? (The intake)
2.) You state you're running Cobalt half shafts; does anything need to be done to make them work? Do they go straight from the trans/jack shaft and install into the hubs?
3.) What did you do for clutch? (Are you running a Camaro clutch/FW?)
4.) Can someone clue me into why VSS is required for this engine to run? I'm having a really difficult time understanding why the engine needs and can't simply be removed from the ECU.


The biggest issue I'd be worrying about on the LF3/4 is the location of the turbo's. Those motors were only ever installed in RWD applications and as such, never needed to accommodate a jack shaft. The other thing that really prevented me from going this route is price. Sourcing a used motor is still $7k+. You can find LFX's for $1250 all day long which leaves $5.5k+ to install a turbo.


Actually,the LF3 was used in a transverse application, the Cadillac XTS-v. It did use different turbos than the longitudinal applications and made less power, but that may just be the tune to save the drivetrain.



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #234, 11-20-2019 09:36 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:

OP - Many thanks for this. I actually just started the swap myself; sourced a Saab 9-3 F40 w/ jackshaft and mounts and am currently looking for a motor (technically a wrecked car so I can grab everything).

Questions:
1.) Your engine appears to be out of an impala or the sort (due to intake orientation) correct? There were no issues just flipping it? (The intake)
2.) You state you're running Cobalt half shafts; does anything need to be done to make them work? Do they go straight from the trans/jack shaft and install into the hubs?
3.) What did you do for clutch? (Are you running a Camaro clutch/FW?)
4.) Can someone clue me into why VSS is required for this engine to run? I'm having a really difficult time understanding why the engine needs and can't simply be removed from the ECU.


The biggest issue I'd be worrying about on the LF3/4 is the location of the turbo's. Those motors were only ever installed in RWD applications and as such, never needed to accommodate a jack shaft. The other thing that really prevented me from going this route is price. Sourcing a used motor is still $7k+. You can find LFX's for $1250 all day long which leaves $5.5k+ to install a turbo.


As for the details of my swap, this thread covers most of the gory details like axles, clutch, motor mounts and such.



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #235, 11-25-2019 09:57 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:

OP - Many thanks for this. I actually just started the swap myself; sourced a Saab 9-3 F40 w/ jackshaft and mounts and am currently looking for a motor (technically a wrecked car so I can grab everything).

Questions:
1.) Your engine appears to be out of an impala or the sort (due to intake orientation) correct? There were no issues just flipping it? (The intake)
2.) You state you're running Cobalt half shafts; does anything need to be done to make them work? Do they go straight from the trans/jack shaft and install into the hubs?
3.) What did you do for clutch? (Are you running a Camaro clutch/FW?)
4.) Can someone clue me into why VSS is required for this engine to run? I'm having a really difficult time understanding why the engine needs and can't simply be removed from the ECU.


The biggest issue I'd be worrying about on the LF3/4 is the location of the turbo's. Those motors were only ever installed in RWD applications and as such, never needed to accommodate a jack shaft. The other thing that really prevented me from going this route is price. Sourcing a used motor is still $7k+. You can find LFX's for $1250 all day long which leaves $5.5k+ to install a turbo.


Not sure what you mean by "flipping the intake". It is installed as the factory originally installed it.


wftb (danjesso@bmts.com) MSG #236, 11-25-2019 11:14 PM
      Hi Daryl : I was just flipping through your thread again and I noticed you have not talked about installing your drive by wire pedal assembly yet. I was on utube looking at ecotec powered sand rails and I found a guy that made a simple way to do DBW without changing the pedal assembly. He just removed the pedal from the DBW unit and mounted it near the engine and hooked his throttle cable to it with a home made bracket. I think this would save a lot of work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHqnwrU972k



Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #237, 11-26-2019 12:54 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

Hi Daryl : I was just flipping through your thread again and I noticed you have not talked about installing your drive by wire pedal assembly yet. I was on utube looking at ecotec powered sand rails and I found a guy that made a simple way to do DBW without changing the pedal assembly. He just removed the pedal from the DBW unit and mounted it near the engine and hooked his throttle cable to it with a home made bracket. I think this would save a lot of work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHqnwrU972k



I actually used the Impala accelerater DBW pedal. Real simple to bolt to the Fiero floor board.


msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #238, 11-26-2019 11:50 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:
OP - Many thanks for this. I actually just started the swap myself; sourced a Saab 9-3 F40 w/ jackshaft and mounts and am currently looking for a motor (technically a wrecked car so I can grab everything).


The SAAB F40 jackshaft and mount will bolt up to the LFX perfectly and probably the LGX. Not 100% sure about the LLT or LY7. It will bolt to the LF4/LF3 but you have to shave off one of the three bolt holes from the mount as it impacts the oil return line. The LF3 intermediate shaft and mount does not line up to the saab F40.

 
quote

2.) You state you're running Cobalt half shafts; does anything need to be done to make them work? Do they go straight from the trans/jack shaft and install into the hubs?


The Cobalt SS supercharged axles will bolt right in from F40 to DS hub and from jackshaft to PS hub but you have to shift the engine over about two inches toward the passenger side. Ok with a V6 not so much with an LS4. These axles did have issues with breaking when pushed. The next generation Cobalt SS Turbo axles are 'seriously' more stout but use a different outer stub and hub so I had to respline them to a G6 cage/balls with Fiero outer stub.

 
quote

3.) What did you do for clutch? (Are you running a Camaro clutch/FW?)

As the LFX/LLT/LY7 et. al. all use the same general external block layout as the SAAB 9-3 2.8T LP9 so you can use a stock SAAB/Sachs or Sachs performance setup. Spec offers many clutch options as well as two flywheel options for the LP9. Even a 7.5" twin disk for racing only... Camaro clutch and flywheel will 'not' fit as it's made for the longitudinal 6 speed setup and too deep of a bellhousing. I worked with one of the owners of RAM clutches to see if we could adapt their Camaro LFX twin disc 9.5" clutch to the F40. The FW/PP/clutch setup was drawn up and ready for a prototype run but the F40 HTOB and input shaft doesn't have the spline depth their twin 9.5" setup.

 
quote

4.) Can someone clue me into why VSS is required for this engine to run? I'm having a really difficult time understanding why the engine needs and can't simply be removed from the ECU.

Well, for one the E36/E92 ECUs need the VSS for feeding speedo output, mixed with yaw sensors for traction control, steering sensitivity (VAPS), and the ATS-V 6-Speed even uses it for its No-Lift Shifting for revmatching. I have spoken to a few Miata/LFX swappers and they even have issues with engine stumbling and erratic behavior at low speed if their VSS sensor wheel doesn't have enough teeth. I think the threshhold is about 16 or 18 teeth minimum for the E36/E92 if memory serves me correctly.

 
quote

The biggest issue I'd be worrying about on the LF3/4 is the location of the turbo's. Those motors were only ever installed in RWD applications and as such, never needed to accommodate a jack shaft. The other thing that really prevented me from going this route is price. Sourcing a used motor is still $7k+. You can find LFX's for $1250 all day long which leaves $5.5k+ to install a turbo.


The LF3 did come in a transverse form in the XTS-V but the turbos are a bit on the smaller side for low end torque to lug the XTS around. The turbo's measured on my LF3 shoud fit in our engine bay but like i said, the turbo to intercooler pipes can't. The pipes perhaps could be ovalized or rerouted or a BFH against the rear firewall and the engine shifted aft but I opted to remove them and go with a custom exhaust and mount over the F40 like the LP9 SAAB layout and a more appropriate mid ranged sized turbo. Unfortunately the manifold bolt patterns are different between the LF3/LF4 and the LFX/LGX so the turbo's can't be swapped over.

The LFX's are good motors but they're built internally to be normally aspirated and will fail if pushed too far with forced induction. Do a search for GretchenGotGrowl on the Camaro forums. Granted, he eventually wrung near or at 700lb/ft out of his LFX but had to replace blocks, beef up internals, HPFP, etc.. That's where the LF3/LF4 come into play... they already have the built in fueling internals to handle forced induction included. Per Renik performance out of California their weak points, if upping the boost, are needing a bigger HPFP or larger HPFP cam on the cam, upgraded LPFP, the titanium rods on the LF4 can shatter under detonation, and the main and CR bearings are a little soft for OEM embedibility / reliability.

[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 11-26-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #239, 11-26-2019 09:56 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:


The LF3 did come in a transverse form in the XTS-V but the turbos are a bit on the smaller side for low end torque to lug the XTS around. The turbo's measured on my LF3 shoud fit in our engine bay but like i said, the turbo to intercooler pipes can't. The pipes perhaps could be ovalized or rerouted or a BFH against the rear firewall and the engine shifted aft but I opted to remove them and go with a custom exhaust and mount over the F40 like the LP9 SAAB layout and a more appropriate mid ranged sized turbo. Unfortunately the manifold bolt patterns are different between the LF3/LF4 and the LFX/LGX so the turbo's can't be swapped over.

The LFX's are good motors but they're built internally to be normally aspirated and will fail if pushed too far with forced induction. Do a search for GretchenGotGrowl on the Camaro forums. Granted, he eventually wrung near or at 700lb/ft out of his LFX but had to replace blocks, beef up internals, HPFP, etc.. That's where the LF3/LF4 come into play... they already have the built in fueling internals to handle forced induction included. Per Renik performance out of California their weak points, if upping the boost, are needing a bigger HPFP or larger HPFP cam on the cam, upgraded LPFP, the titanium rods on the LF4 can shatter under detonation, and the main and CR bearings are a little soft for OEM embedibility / reliability.



Great info msweldon




Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #240, 11-26-2019 10:20 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by wftb:

Hi Daryl : I was just flipping through your thread again and I noticed you have not talked about installing your drive by wire pedal assembly yet. I was on utube looking at ecotec powered sand rails and I found a guy that made a simple way to do DBW without changing the pedal assembly. He just removed the pedal from the DBW unit and mounted it near the engine and hooked his throttle cable to it with a home made bracket. I think this would save a lot of work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHqnwrU972k






Since you asked, here is a photo of the Impala accelerator pedal installed in my Fiero.


RandomTask (jguer003@odu.edu) MSG #241, 12-04-2019 08:03 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:


Not sure what you mean by "flipping the intake". It is installed as the factory originally installed it.


Daryl,

I'm in the midst of doing the same/similar swap. Already have the F40 out of a Saab 9-3; on the hunt for a complete drop out. Ideally, I'd find an LFX out of a '12+ Camaro or a LGX out of a 15+ Camaro Caddy (ATS, CTS, ETC). Just been a pain finding an engine as Copart stuff has skyrocketed in price (and not worth it) and most recyclers yank all the accessories/electronics off.

As far as flipping the intake, the intake is mounted forward facing; good for those cars, bad for the fiero's. It appears the mounting schema is symettrical for the intake, that is you can simply flip the intake around. Although I don't know if this would be completely do-able as Camaro setups point the throttle body downward. Hopefully this picture helps clear that up:

[This message has been edited by RandomTask (edited 12-04-2019).]

RandomTask (jguer003@odu.edu) MSG #242, 12-04-2019 08:05 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:


The LF3 did come in a transverse form in the XTS-V but the turbos are a bit on the smaller side for low end torque to lug the XTS around. The turbo's measured on my LF3 shoud fit in our engine bay but like i said, the turbo to intercooler pipes can't. The pipes perhaps could be ovalized or rerouted or a BFH against the rear firewall and the engine shifted aft but I opted to remove them and go with a custom exhaust and mount over the F40 like the LP9 SAAB layout and a more appropriate mid ranged sized turbo. Unfortunately the manifold bolt patterns are different between the LF3/LF4 and the LFX/LGX so the turbo's can't be swapped over.

The LFX's are good motors but they're built internally to be normally aspirated and will fail if pushed too far with forced induction. Do a search for GretchenGotGrowl on the Camaro forums. Granted, he eventually wrung near or at 700lb/ft out of his LFX but had to replace blocks, beef up internals, HPFP, etc.. That's where the LF3/LF4 come into play... they already have the built in fueling internals to handle forced induction included. Per Renik performance out of California their weak points, if upping the boost, are needing a bigger HPFP or larger HPFP cam on the cam, upgraded LPFP, the titanium rods on the LF4 can shatter under detonation, and the main and CR bearings are a little soft for OEM embedibility / reliability.




Thanks so much for this!

Clutch - Yeah, I found in this thread that a stock Saab clutch would work. My *thought* process is to use a SPEC FW w/ a Stage 3 Spec clutch. Thanks so much for the axle info!

Have you heard of anyone running an ECU from a manual Camaro having any of these stumbling issues? (unsure of the identification of the ECU's).

My biggest thing with the LF4 is the cost. For $7k for a setup, might as well as go LS at that point.

[This message has been edited by RandomTask (edited 12-04-2019).]

msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #243, 12-04-2019 11:32 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:
Thanks so much for this!

Clutch - Yeah, I found in this thread that a stock Saab clutch would work. My *thought* process is to use a SPEC FW w/ a Stage 3 Spec clutch. Thanks so much for the axle info!

Have you heard of anyone running an ECU from a manual Camaro having any of these stumbling issues? (unsure of the identification of the ECU's).

My biggest thing with the LF4 is the cost. For $7k for a setup, might as well as go LS at that point.


Not to hijack Danyl's thread...

I have the SPEC Alum flywheel and Stage 3+ setup waiting to go in for my LF3/LF4.... It goes in as soon as I finish F40 3.09FD swap...

The stumbling issues I referenced were due to not enough teeth/resolution on an external reluctor wheel feeding the E36/E92 ECM. I've fitted an LF4 ATS-V 6speed harness and ECU to my LF3 as they are 99% the same physically but the XTSV 's BCM controls the FPCM while the ATSV has a FPCM controlled by the ECM....having said that I have no point of reference to the Camaro manual LFX ECU. I would advise getting ahold of the Mitchell, or equivalent, wiring diagrams as the FSM wiring diagrams for the XTS and ATS were barely usable and far too broken up, and seeing if the manual has a separate FPCM. Since the ATS and he Camaro share a great deal in layout I would say they probably would have similar wiring layouts as well with the ATS being more complex due to the myriad of options and features Cadillac installs.

[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 12-04-2019).]

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #244, 12-06-2019 04:00 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:
Thanks so much for this!

Clutch - Yeah, I found in this thread that a stock Saab clutch would work. My *thought* process is to use a SPEC FW w/ a Stage 3 Spec clutch. Thanks so much for the axle info!

Have you heard of anyone running an ECU from a manual Camaro having any of these stumbling issues? (unsure of the identification of the ECU's).

My biggest thing with the LF4 is the cost. For $7k for a setup, might as well as go LS at that point.



My LFX came from a 2013 Impala. The F40 came from a 2006 Saab 9-3. I had Ryan from Sinister (aka Darth Fireo on this forum) reprogram the Impala ECU for my application. My project has not progressed to the point where I know if it all works yet, but I am confident all will work as planned.


msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #245, 01-04-2020 12:29 AM
      Daryl,

Have you given any thought yet as to how you're going to handle your coolant routing? The HFV6 family of V6's have the coolant exit out of the engine on the passenger side or front of the block and inter the block just above the transmission to block mating point. This is exactly the opposite from the fiero layout. Are you planning on crossing over the coolant pipes in the bay, in the front prior to radiator, or install an aftermarket radiator with the inlet and outlets reversed.

Also, building my motor and transmission mounts for my "LF3.5" I noticed that your axles aren't exactly inline with the lateral and toe links as it looks like the F40 diff/output shafts are angled slightly forward indicating that your engine is shifted rearward a bit. Was this due to firewall clearance with all your accessories mounted toward the firewall or oil pan bosses interfering with the cradle?

Probably moot at this point and may be the 11th hour for you but you can relocate the alternator to the far side of the engine by utilizing the Camaro LFX alternator bracket which could give you some more room...

M

[This message has been edited by msweldon (edited 01-08-2020).]

RandomTask (jguer003@odu.edu) MSG #246, 01-09-2020 12:19 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:

Daryl,

Have you given any thought yet as to how you're going to handle your coolant routing? The HFV6 family of V6's have the coolant exit out of the engine on the passenger side or front of the block and inter the block just above the transmission to block mating point. This is exactly the opposite from the fiero layout. Are you planning on crossing over the coolant pipes in the bay, in the front prior to radiator, or install an aftermarket radiator with the inlet and outlets reversed.

Also, building my motor and transmission mounts for my "LF3.5" I noticed that your axles aren't exactly inline with the lateral and toe links as it looks like the F40 diff/output shafts are angled slightly forward indicating that your engine is shifted rearward a bit. Was this due to firewall clearance with all your accessories mounted toward the firewall or oil pan bosses interfering with the cradle?

Probably moot at this point and may be the 11th hour for you but you can relocate the alternator to the far side of the engine by utilizing the Camaro LFX alternator bracket which could give you some more room...

M



To your last point, I'm navigating that predicament right now. I'm looking to pick up the Impala alternator due to the belt routing, haha. My LFX is from a 2014 Camaro and Daryls alternator is where my power steering pump used to be.

Keep up the good work!


msweldon (marc.weldon@mindspring.com) MSG #247, 01-09-2020 01:55 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:


To your last point, I'm navigating that predicament right now. I'm looking to pick up the Impala alternator due to the belt routing, haha. My LFX is from a 2014 Camaro and Daryls alternator is where my power steering pump used to be.

Keep up the good work!


Why are you looking to put the alternator against the firewall instead of keeping it in the stock camaro lfx location which would be the same as the 2.8 fiero? You can put an idler pulley where the impala alternator is mounted and free up quite a bit firewall, decklid hingebox clearance.


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #248, 01-09-2020 09:10 AM
      Msweldon & RandomTask, I really haven't worked out the coolant routing yet. As for the engine mounting and related issues, I blocked the engine/transmission in place and moved it around until I liked the position. With the power steering pump removed and a shorter belt in place, it all just seemed to fall into place. I'm not familiar with the Camaro LFX. I went with the Impala motor because it seemed there would be fewer issues using a transverse engine. Hope you guys continue to chime in. The feedback and suggestions are appreciated.
Daryl


RandomTask (jguer003@odu.edu) MSG #249, 01-09-2020 09:35 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by msweldon:


Why are you looking to put the alternator against the firewall instead of keeping it in the stock camaro lfx location which would be the same as the 2.8 fiero? You can put an idler pulley where the impala alternator is mounted and free up quite a bit firewall, decklid hingebox clearance.


To me, it's simply easier to buy a $120 alternator to mimic the impala routing rather than fabricating a pulley setup that can fix it. (Don't make crappier versions of things you can easily buy). It also looks like I'll have enough room there. I hope GM quality has increased since the 80's and I won't have to change the alternator all that often. The only way to not run an idler pulley where the PS pump was is to switch to a cadillac ATS style setup which would require getting all new accessories + crank pulley etc.

Found this pic online which is basically what I want to run:


BTW, did you get my PM?


Will (william.lucke@gmail.com) MSG #250, 01-09-2020 09:40 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by RandomTask:


To me, it's simply easier to buy a $120 alternator to mimic the impala routing rather than fabricating a pulley setup that can fix it. (Don't make crappier versions of things you can easily buy). It also looks like I'll have enough room there. I hope GM quality has increased since the 80's and I won't have to change the alternator all that often. The only way to not run an idler pulley where the PS pump was is to switch to a cadillac ATS style setup which would require getting all new accessories + crank pulley etc.

Found this pic online which is basically what I want to run:


BTW, did you get my PM?


That setup is basically ideal for the Fiero, and is pretty much exactly what my Northstar runs.

Applications that have electric power steering ditch the PS pump and simplify the accessory belt drive significantly.


RandomTask (jguer003@odu.edu) MSG #251, 01-09-2020 09:43 AM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

Msweldon & RandomTask, I really haven't worked out the coolant routing yet. As for the engine mounting and related issues, I blocked the engine/transmission in place and moved it around until I liked the position. With the power steering pump removed and a shorter belt in place, it all just seemed to fall into place. I'm not familiar with the Camaro LFX. I went with the Impala motor because it seemed there would be fewer issues using a transverse engine. Hope you guys continue to chime in. The feedback and suggestions are appreciated.
Daryl


Daryl,

Gladly help in any way I can. You've done a phenomenal job thus far. I'll be catching up to you soon; just placed my order for the clutch so I can start bolting things together.

So you're tracking, on the Camaro LFX, the power steering pump and alternator are switched as to what they are on the Impala. (Fun fact, in GM's infinite wisdom on the Camaro PS Pump, they put a bolt that disconnects the pump right behind the outer edge of the pulley; you have to take the pulley off to get the pump off the block). Since we don't need the PS pump, that leaves the Camaro LFX in a little of a predicament, I can't run straight from the AC to the water pump b/c the tensioner is in the way. My options are to either keep the alternator where it is and fabricate a PS delete pulley setup, or just buy an Impala alternator and install it (where the Camaro PS pump used to be).



The only thing I'd be worried about in the picture above is the amount of belt wrap I'd be putting on the alternator. The impala setup has an idler pully right next to it to increase the purchase. While we won't be driving the alternator anywhere near as hard as an impala (since we have way less electrical needs) it's still a concern. For piece of mind, I'm on the lookout for the bolt/washer setup for this idler pulley.

[This message has been edited by RandomTask (edited 01-09-2020).]

RandomTask (jguer003@odu.edu) MSG #252, 01-09-2020 09:51 AM
      Oh and to add, I pulled the intake off and it looks like if you go to a camaro setup, to flip the intake around, you just need to lightly trim (~3/16") some of the ribbing on the bottom throat of the intake to clear the high pressure fuel lines.

The motor I have has ~100k miles on it and the valves are coked and I'm going to have to clean them. Seems some of the Camaro guys are seeing coking at around 15k miles. Might behoove you to pull the intake off and take a peak while everything is way more serviceable (ie, out of the car).


RandomTask (jguer003@odu.edu) MSG #253, 01-14-2020 10:55 PM
      Daryl, do you have the electrical schematic by chance? Or could you point me in the right direction? Gonna start rewiring this beast

Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #254, 01-15-2020 02:21 AM
      I got wireing instructions form Sinister (Darth Fiero on this forum). He also reprogrammed my ECM. It isn't really a schematic, more like instructions about what wire of the Impala harness goes to where on the Fiero. Since his changes are his intelectual property, I am reluctant to share without his authorization. Ryan is great to work with and was able to answer questions as I went along. Worth the money to have his brain to pick. If I were you, I'd contact him.
sp1@gmtuners.com
Hope this helps.
Daryl


RandomTask (jguer003@odu.edu) MSG #255, 01-15-2020 06:17 PM
     
 
quote
Originally posted by Daryl M:

I got wireing instructions form Sinister (Darth Fiero on this forum). He also reprogrammed my ECM. It isn't really a schematic, more like instructions about what wire of the Impala harness goes to where on the Fiero. Since his changes are his intelectual property, I am reluctant to share without his authorization. Ryan is great to work with and was able to answer questions as I went along. Worth the money to have his brain to pick. If I were you, I'd contact him.
sp1@gmtuners.com
Hope this helps.
Daryl


Totally understand. Yeah, I already reached out to him. .. just need to finish the paperwork and send it to him.

Thanks!


Daryl M (daryl.miglia@gmail.com) MSG #256, 01-17-2020 08:23 PM
      Ryan does a thorough job of taking everything into consideration. You should be happy with what he provides.